Let's Go To Court! - 180: Candy Montgomery & Ruth Snyder

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

Candy Montgomery was bored. Her life wasn’t half bad. She was living in her dream home in the outskirts of Dallas, she had two kids, and a husband who made bank at Texas Instruments. Plus, she had a church community that she loved. But Candy wanted more. She wanted fireworks. More specifically, she wanted really good sex. Then one day, during a church volleyball game, she collided into her friend’s husband, Allan Gore. In doing so, Candy made a discovery. Allan smelled sexy.  Then Brandi tells us about an old timey murder. Ruth Brown Snyder’s relationship with Albert Snyder got off to a weird start. Shortly after berating her over the phone, Albert found himself charmed by Ruth’s sweet, sincere apology. He asked if he could meet her so that he could apologize for his temper. Soon, he met Ruth and turned on the charm. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Love and death in silicon prairie,” by Jim Atkinson and John Bloom for Texas Monthly  “Some in Wylie don’t know of 1980 ax slaying; others can’t forget,” by Jeffrey Weiss for The Dallas Morning News “Anniversary of an ax murder,” by Sonia Duggan for In and Around magazine “Wylie ax slaying defendant acquitted,” by Frank Trejo and Michelle Scott for the Fort Worth Star-Telegram “The loving Christian mom who became an axe murderer,” by Erica Tempesta for The Daily Mail In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Murder of Albert Snyder” by Denise Noe, The Crime Library “The 1927 Murder That Became a Media Circus—And a Famous Movie” by Becky Little, history.com “The Shocking Story Behind This Photo Of Ruth Snyder’s Execution” by Katie Serena, allthatsinteresting.com “Ruth Snyder-Judd Gray Trial: 1927” encyclopedia.com “Ruth Snyder” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 19+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Candy Montgomery.

And I'll be talking about a murder. Why do you say it like that when that's your favorite thing to talk about? Because you shamed me on the bonus episode. Because you're like, aren't you just going to talk about a murder? Why do you have to come in here and be like, oh, is it a question? Oh, was there a robbery? I don't know. So fine.

I'm talking about a fucking murder. I sound 12 times hotter than that. Everybody, go easy on Brandy this week. She just found out about masturbation. A new concept she just learned about. Just a reminder, you know. We don't all have the same experiences in life. You're going to have to give that some context.

Oh, no, I'm not. No. If you want to give the context to the people, you can. Otherwise, I like to just let that hang out there. All right, fine. Fine. That's fine. You're really not going to explain it to people?

Okay, no. We were talking about, like, imagine what your life would be if you didn't have like anxiety. How like Norman, you and Norman, I were talking about that. Yeah, because we all have anxiety. And like, imagine like how different we'd be as people and blah, blah, blah. And Norma's like, do you think I'd achieve nirvana if I didn't have anxiety? And it's like, no, but you'd probably just have 24-7 orgasms. And then we're talking about, like, how terrible that could actually be. Yeah, how, like, it sounds great at first glance,

but then it's like, do you get anything done? Can you live a normal life? Well, probably not. And so then I was like, okay, well, what if you could control it? And Chris was like, well, you can fucking do that now. So this is a PSA. Everybody, you can control it. You can control it.

You can take this matter into your own hands. Jesus. Give me a good hard laugh. Goodness gracious. My ponytail's too tight. Is it? Yeah. Give me a good hard laugh. Goodness gracious. My ponytail's too tight. Is it? Yeah.

Oh my God, the way you said that. You know what that makes me think of? Remember back in the day? Headband too tight? You ever have a headband too tight? Yeah, it just hurts you right behind the... Oh, no. Everybody, she injured herself greatly. She got that piercing. P hurt you right behind the... Oh, she don't know everybody. She injured herself greatly. She got that piercing. Poked myself right

in the piercing. Got her nipple pierced. No, I did not. I'm working on a nipple pulley system. You know, you've heard us talk about it before on here. We've been workshopping it for a while. Man, imagine if this was your first episode.

I thought this was a true crime podcast. This came highly recommended. Some poor woman sounds like she's in her 30s, doesn't know about masturbation, but somehow knows about a nipple pulley system. Strange podcast, if you ask me. Oh, it is. It is. You know, I tried. I really tried.

Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand-new dealership for you. The deals don't stop, though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. At Don Valley North, Don Valley North Collection. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group.

Hi, everyone. This is James Harkin and Anna Tyshinsky from No Street Singers of Fish and we have a new podcast. It's called Quite a Good Sport. Whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between, we will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to each other.

We are not going for gold in Paris, but we will be competing with each other at some of these sports, giving it a go ourselves. If you want to know what a rigger jigger is, if you want to know what the size of a room means to your table tennis game, or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls, find out by listening to Quite

a Good Sport, available wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, while you ask for questions in the Discord, you know what we're going to do now? We're going to multitask. So let me tell you all what's going on here. At the $5 level on our Patreon, you get a bonus episode, a monthly bonus episode. It's a meaty boy.

We just recorded one two days ago. Maybe that's why we sound so frazzled. Anyway, you're going to want to check that out. At that level, you also get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. But if you want more than that, at the $7 level, you get all that, plus a monthly Zoom hangout to hang out with us. You get a sticker. You get our lovely autographs on your little card.

You get inducted at the end of this podcast and at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level, you get all that, plus ad-free episodes, and you get them a day early. But that's not all. What else do you get, Brandy? 10% off merch.

Woo! Woo! Woo-hoo-ee! And with that, I believe we are ready to start our episode. Oh, my God! Oh, my God! Very cool. Excellent.

I have no idea why I did that. I apologize. I apologize. why I did that. I apologize. You know, I hope what people listen to this for is the rustic charm

of the podcast because it's not our polish, that's for sure. Okay, you ready? Yeah, I was born ready.

Okay. Okay. Thank you to LaurenTX27 in the Discord for suggesting this case. Do you think she's from Texas? We can never know. We should never assume. We shouldn't even assume that her name is Lauren.

You're right. Or that her favorite number is 72. Maybe she's a really big fan of Ralph Lauren. Maybe. And her name is Tommy. Anyway, this is getting really stupid. So there is a ton of great reporting on this case. The thing I pulled the most from was, and was really the most thorough reporting out there, it's from Texas Monthly, of course. Of course. Why does Texas Monthly have to be the best publication on Earth?

It's very good. Jim Atkinson and John Bloom co-wrote a two-part article titled Love and Death in the Silicon Prairie. So somebody dies. Yes. They also wrote a book about this case called Evidence of Love. Are you trying to give me shit? Mm-hmm. Because I'll have you know I'm the shit giver in this podcast and in this friendship.

That's absolutely correct. We must also give shout outs to Jeffrey Weiss for his reporting in the Dallas Morning News and Sonia Duggan's article for In and Around Magazine. Oh. In and Around what? Calm down. It's like a lifestyle, you know. You just hold on to your pants there, lady.

Candy Montgomery was bored. There was actually a lot going well in her life. She lived in her dream house out in Collin County on the outskirts of Dallas and she had a husband named Pat who worked as an electrical engineer at Texas Instruments. They make some pretty nice calculators. Yeah, mm-hmm, they sure do Brandi. Don't you just lie to me like I know that company. So you know they got those, sweet discounts on calculators. Not that they needed discounts because it was 1977 and Pat was bringing home $70,000 a year.

Holy shit, that's a lot of money. Adjusted for inflation, $313,000 a year. Fuck. Yeah. So they were doing all right. Yeah, that's some serious money! Plus, they had a son

and daughter, and I'm like, 80% sure that they had a literal white picket fence around their house. Yeah. And if you're not

jealous yet, you should be. Because you know what? They attended the Methodist Church of Lucas, and they loved it there. Who's Lucas?

Lucas, Texas. Oh, the town. I wish I could be condescending. I was like, well, Lucas, I know Luke from the Bible. Yeah, is it like? Lucas' buddy, lesser known buddy. They had a great church community, and it happened to be where Candy met her good friend, Betty Gore. Candy had it all.

Did I mention that she was also petite and blonde and super cute and super outgoing? Wonderful. I'm so happy for you. It's great that Candy had everything going for her. I'm so happy for her. I'm just great that Candy had everything going for her. I'm so happy for her and not the least bit jealous. Including the world's cutest name. The only problem was she was a bored housewife. A desperate housewife, if you will.

Candy wanted to spice up her life. And to be a little more blunt about it, what she really wanted was transcendent sex. What does that mean? You know, she just wanted, you know, the moon and the stars and the sun and the sky. I don't know, transcend time and space. That's all she wants out of sex. That's all she asks for, Brandy. Okay.

Some people just want to orgasm. Candy wanted fireworks. But where could she find them so far from the 4th of July? Well. That was a good joke, Brandy. That's what you call a real chuckler. One day in the summer of 1978, Candy was out on the church volleyball court. She was just out there with friends, just slapping balls and praising the Lord.

When something happened. Her good friend Betty's husband, Alan, was on her team. And the volleyball came at them, and they both dove for it. And oopsies, oh no, they collided into each other. Oh my. And as they crashed into each other, a thought ran through Candy's mind. Alan Gore smelled sexy. Alan Gore is going to give me transcendent sex.

Oh, Alan Gore. Wait, his name is Al Gore? Yeah. You know, when I think of alcohol. You get all steamed up. I do. I do. You know, I got to say, your reaction, pretty spot on.

Because smelling sexy was just about the only thing Alan had going for him. The dudes who wrote the Texas Monthly article that I love so much want you to know that Alan had a receding hairline, a paunchy midsection, and boring clothes. Ooh. Stop. I can't take anymore. But Candy, like a saint, was focused on what was underneath those khakis because she decided that Alan was the man who would give her fireworks. Baby, you're a firework. Come and show me what you're worth.

Make him go uh, uh, uh. She started wondering what it would be like to have sex with him. And she wondered if maybe he was having those same thoughts about her. Well, yeah, she's like cute and fun, right? Yeah. And rich. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, I'm sure he's having those thoughts about her. Well, just hold on. Let's see. Maybe he doesn't think she smells sexy at all. Maybe he was surprised when they crashed into each other. He's like, this bitch smells like sweat. Well, they're playing volleyball. Yeah, I think he should cut her some slack, but maybe he doesn't.

We'll just have to see where this story takes us. I think they're going to start a hot and steamy affair. Hmm. Hmm. All right. All right. Let's see. They had a lot in common. They were both bland dressers with receding hairlines.

I mean, they were both outgoing, super into church, and really fun. outgoing, super into church, and really fun. Although, I gotta tell you, after reading this whole story, I think Alan sounds about as fun as like a four-hour Monopoly game. Sounds not fun.

The opposite of fun. But there was something there. Some park. Sometimes. You look so grossed out when I do my sexy Sometimes. You look so grossed out when I do my sexy voice.

You don't like my sexy voice? I can't believe you ever get Norm to have sex with you. Well, we have no children.

Sometimes after choir practice, the two of them would like linger behind and talk for a while.

The flirtation was subtle, but it was there. Oh, it was there! And one day, Candy decided to make a move. After choir practice one night, she saw Alan get into his car, and she came around the passenger side and hopped in. car and she came around the passenger side and hopped in and she said alan i want to talk to you sometime about something that has been bothering me yeah that's a weird move to make what what you don't like it um it doesn't make me think that you're going to tell me you want to bang me okay well she you know i'd really like to discuss something with you, and it's really been bothering me. I'd like to have sex with you.

Now we know how you and David got started. That was your opening message on Tinder. Hello, I'm quite troubled by your profile. I'd like to have sex with you. So Alan hears this and he's a little like you. He's kind of like, huh? And he's like, well, why don't you just tell me whatever it is right now?

Yeah. And she said, I've been thinking a lot about you and it's really bothering me and I don't know whether I want you to do anything about it or not. I'm very attracted to you and I'm tired of thinking about it so I wanted to tell you and then as soon as she said this she jumped out of the car slammed the door shut and just hold ass across the parking lot you know like a cool girl. You know, those real chill, cool girls.

So smooth. Poor Alan was stunned. Candy was one of the hottest ladies at church. And she wanted him. Al Gore. He couldn't help but compare Candy to his wife, Betty. Betty seemed like Candy's complete opposite. Betty had grown up in Norwich, Kansas, population 511 as of 2019.

North Central Kansas? Is that where Norwich is? I mean, I think it's kind of outside of Wichita. Oh, no. This is not helpful at all to people who are not familiar with the area. It's just a speck of a place. There's an airport there? There's no way there's an airport there. It's on the map here.

It says Norwich. Oh, yeah, you're right. It's south of Wichita. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Carry on. Never heard of it.

Okay, carry on. Never heard of it. She was quiet and prepared to reach for your puke bucket because they'd met when she was in college and he was her math teacher. No. At this point in the Texas Monthly article, the boys make another dig at Alan, noting that even at a young age, he had puffy cheeks, ugly glasses, and a receding hairline. Oh, no. Did we mention the receding hairline?

He had a receding hairline. He had a receding hairline. Have you guys heard? So, even though he had a receding hairline, which is the worst thing to ever befall a person, nonetheless, two whole women had the hots for Alan. Frankly, it was a little befuddling. But Alan didn't want to rock the boat. He had a good life. Betty was a fifth grade teacher at R.C. Dodd Middle School, which doesn't make sense. Fifth grade is not middle school, right? I mean, what's what the hell's going on in Texas? Yeah, fifth grade's not middle school.

Other sources said it was at an elementary school. Anyway. I don't know what setting. Maybe if there's like a... No. No. Impossible. Impossible. I know, like, some school districts are like 6th, 7th, 8th. Right, but no one's

5th. Nobody's 5th. It's not allowed. No. Anyway, we could be wrong. No, we're never wrong. But we've never been wrong. And they had a child together, and he worked for Rockwell International, which is a big defense contractor, and he traveled a lot for work. So he had no time for an affair, Brandy. Sounds like he's at, like, in choir practice and playing volleyball all the time. Well, he loves the Lord.

Okay. All right. Time for the Lord. No time for sex. Got it. Yeah. All right. He loved the Lord, and the Lord says, thou shall not commit adultery.

It's written right there on the tablet, clear as day. I don't know what more you need, Brandy. Okay. So he decided, no. He was flattered, but he would not pursue anything with candy but then candy's not gonna like that well i mean here's the thing like betty fucking betty she was up to her usual shit she complained what's betty? She complained about minor illnesses

just all the time. Super annoying. And she wanted to have another baby, but she wasn't real casual about it. She wanted to get pregnant and like a total pain in the ass, she wanted to plan the pregnancy. What a bitch.

I know. She wanted to plan it so that she'd give birth in the summer and not have to take time off work. Fucking Betty. How dare any woman try to take this situation into her own hands when it's going to be her body and everything. It just outrages me. I'm on Alan's side here. It enrages me. I'm on Alan's side here.

So poor Alan with his hairline just receding by the second. Had to have mandatory sex with his wife. How terrible. That wasn't fit for him. All he wanted was transcendent sex. Well, you know, he hadn't quite found out about the transcendent sex. He was just like, you know, hoping for something a little more spontaneous. You compare that to sexy candy. Well, suddenly.

Or sex and candy. I smell sex and candy here. Who is that lounging in my chair? It's fucking Betty waiting for me to have sex with her. Yeah. Because she doesn't want to take time off in the middle of the school year. That's the alternative version of that song. So Candy's a lot more tempting.

But Alan, he held strong. And a week later, after a church volleyball game, he and Candy walked out to the parking lot together, and she asked him directly, Would you be interested in having an affair? Okay. Brandy, your face. I don't know. Candy, as fun and cute and whatever she is, she seems pretty awkward.

Yeah, I mean. Right? Like, I have feelings for you, and I don't know if you want to do anything about it, but I'm going. Yeah, I mean. Right? Like, well. I have feelings for you and I don't know if you want to do anything about it, but I'm going to go now. Goodbye. Screech. Goodbye.

Also, so I told you what I told you in the car the other day and now I would like to know, would you or would you not be interested in an affair? We're going to get more into this. Let me tell you, I think these folks have some eggs I and T. But stay tuned and let me know what you think. Alan was a little floored by the question. He told her that Betty had cheated on him in the past and it had devastated him. He couldn't do that to Betty. He didn't want to hurt her. Plus she was pregnant now on account of all

that scheduled sex and it wouldn't be fair. Candy took this like a champ. She was like, hey, cool. I love my husband, Pat, and I'd hate to hurt him. I don't want to hurt your marriage. I just wanted to bang. I won't mention it again because I'm classy. And Alan kissed her goodbye. It wasn't passionate, but it wasn't unpassionate either. Okay. Speaking of unpassionate, let's talk some more about Alan and Betty's marriage. Something just wasn't clicking.

Betty was super stressed and they weren't having sex anymore and the magic was gone. But then Alan heard about this thing called the marriage encounter. Oh, yeah. This is like a church marriage retreat type thing. That's exactly right. Yeah. How do you know about the marriage encounter? This is like a church marriage retreat type thing, right? That's exactly right. Yeah. Yeah. How do you know about the marriage encounter?

I think a church I went to must have been in the flyer thing. Yeah, this is super common. So it's a Christian-centered weekend for couples who want to take their marriage from good to great. Or shitty to great. I was going to say, do you have to start at good? Nope. Nope. Okay, so this is still a thing

and on their website it says no circle time no sharing no meet and greet and underneath that there's a sign up now button and i have never been more tempted to click yeah no kidding you want to sell that to me yeah no sharing no meet and sharing, no meet and greet. Sign me up. Yeah, I'd go to that retreat. I'm not married. You just show up. They just have you walk off into a room alone and talk about your feelings.

This occurred to me that I might not be welcome at this retreat. So Alan had some friends at church who went to this marriage encounter, and they said it was life-changing. They were a little mysterious about it, but they were like, OMG, we can't even explain. You just have to go. You just have to experience it.

And so Alan was like, hey, Betty, do you want to go to the marriage encounter? And she was like, ugh, why do we need to do that? She had a lot going on already. And she was like, you don't think there's something wrong with us, do you? And since Alan was a bag of trail mix that was just dried fruit and M&Ms, he told her no. Okay. So since he didn't have the cashews to tell his wife

that he wanted to work on their marriage, he thought more about having an affair. Randy, do you enjoy my jokes? I don't. You enjoy them immensely? I do not like them. Okay. That was good, Brandy.

See, you tried to be above it. Suck you right in. So pretty soon it was Candy's 29th birthday, and Alan called her up and invited her to lunch. Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you.

The deals don't stop, though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. Hi everyone, this is James Harkin and Anna Tyshinsky from No Street Singers and Fish and we have a new podcast. It's called Quite a Good Sport. Whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between, we will be speaking to athletes

who are going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to each other. We are not going for gold in Paris, but we will be competing with each other at some of these sports, giving it a go ourselves. If you want to know what a rigger jigger is, if you want to know what the size of a room

means to your table tennis game, or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls, find out by listening to Quite a Good Spot, available wherever you get your podcasts. When they met up, okay, this seems weird to me, and every source includes it, so I'm going to include it too. They met up at a tire shop because he had to go somewhere

and get his tires worked on, so he was really multitasking. I guess. So they meet up at this tire shop. He hands a birthday card and on the front it read for the last of the red hot lovers and inside okay hold on hold on brandy what's your face about what what you think and you turned on no talk to You turned on to talk? No. You turned on to react? I get it. I get it. We all understand. I dislike it. Okay.

Does it change things to know that when she opens up the card, there's a bag of Red Hots inside? No. I like it even less now. Candy thought it was great. Because she likes candy? Yes. And sex. We can't do it again. We can't do it. Yep, we did it once.

They want an encore, but they won't get one. Always teasing on this podcast. So they had lunch at a tea house, and they chit-chatted, and Candy told Alan about this creative writing course that she was taking. And he actually listened to her, which was a huge change from how her husband Pat reacted. And finally, Alan was like, hey, I've never had an affair before. And Candy said, I haven't either. And they talked about it and agreed that they didn't want to hurt

their spouses if they did this they'd have to be really careful they couldn't get emotionally involved Brandy Alan was nervous about the whole thing he said he needed more time to think and really he needed a lot of time to think. Okay, you can't just make these faces. You have to have an audible reaction. This is stupid. The amount of talking they're doing about what, oh, are we going to have an affair? Aren't we going to

have an affair? I don't know. I don't want to hurt my spouse. Well, you've already fucking hurt them by doing this. Just to recap, you're upset right now with the amount of talking they've done about whether or not to have an affair? Yes. Okay. Does this go on

longer? Oh, this is ridiculous. It is ridiculous. To the point that I think if Betty and Pat knew, they'd be like, just bang already, you douchebags. This is worse. For the next month.

Oh, Lord. He'd call Candy up and talk logistics. When would we have sex? What if someone saw us? What if we develop feelings for one another? They talked on the phone so often that they started looking forward to the calls. And the best part was, it didn't seem to affect their marriages.

They could talk about having an affair and then slip right back into normal life, easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Okay, they're already having an affair. Yeah, an emotional affair. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

They are having an affair. No, Brandy affair. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. They are having an affair. No, Brandy, they're just talking it out. They're troubleshooting. You can tell this guy has like, I can't remember what his exact job was, but this guy sounds like an engineer to me. Oh, for sure. Yeah. You said he was an engineer, I think.

No, Texas Instruments guy was an electrical engineer. Calm down. That's the calculator man. Okay. All right. I'm sorry. I was an electrical engineer okay calm down that's the calculator man okay i'm sorry i would like to have you disrespecting the calculator man pat who doesn't suspect a thing yeah betty who doesn't suspect a thing okay but you know all this build-up sure was intense. And finally, Candy had to make a move. She invited Alan to her house for lunch, and she cooked him a lasagna. In the article in Texas Monthly, they called it her famous lasagna.

I am so sick of people saying, oh, my famous lasagna. Really? I never fucking heard of it. Exactly. Candy Montgomery makes a famous lasagna. I don't think so. Now, I don't know. What's it?

Mario, you know. Probably offensive. Yeah. Okay. How do you please cut that? Was Mario Batali the real creep? Yeah, he's the croc guy. That's what you say.

The creepiest thing isn't that he sexually harassed women, it's that he wore crocs while he did it. And you know what else? What? Ponytail. Receding hairline. Yeah, no, you gotta give that up. Yeah. Here's, okay, we might have some balding men in listeners.

Obviously. They're not listening for this, but my personal opinion. Yeah. The second that stuff starts to go, just shave it. Goodbye. That's what David does. Yeah. Yeah.

His hairline is receding so far. It's all the way back here. So she cooked him her famous lasagna. Probably had cottage cheese in it. You probably did. Which I would not turn down, but it's not famous. Anyway, and as a fun joke, she taped a big piece of butcher paper to the wall. And on it, she wrote in one column, wise.

And in another column, the why nots. It was an adorable, Pinterest-y way to discuss the pros and cons of banging each other. Can I mean? Isn't that cute? No, this is ridiculous. Is that the cutest thing you've ever heard? But even though it was kind of a joke, they did end up talking about the pros and cons. Con, they could get emotionally involved.

Pro, sex is fun. On and on they went. How much can they talk about this? I don't know. I don't know. It's super frustrating to me that they don't see what they're doing already has crossed the line and they are already having an affair. I'm sure they know they've crossed the line already, don't you?

Well, probably. But they're telling themselves. It doesn't matter unless we go all the way. That means sex. Come to Brandy for all your euphemisms. The woman who just found out about masturbation. That was like the funniest thing of today. And I'm so sad we weren't recording when it happened.

When you were like, okay, but hear me out. What if you could control it? Would you even leave the house? If you could just, like, make yourself have an orgasm, what about that? Would you even be married today? Think about it.

So, Alan left that day without making a decision because he was not one to rush into anything, Brandy. These fucking people. No, they're not fucking. because he was not one to rush into anything, Brandy. These fucking people. No, they're not fucking. But finally, a few days later, he called her up and said that, yes, he would like to have an affair with her.

Great, because you're already having one. Hold on. Hold on. But first, they needed to set ground rules. Oh, my gosh. Are you ready for Candy and Alan's sexy list of sexy ground rules for sexy sex? Yes. Here we go. If anyone gets emotionally involved, boom, the affair ends.

Okay, well, you're already emotionally involved, so boom, it's over. No, no, they're going to wait for it to get a little worse. If anyone takes unnecessary risks, boom! The affair ends. All expenses related to the affair

will be shared equally. Hashtag feminism. Sex can only occur on a Tuesday or a Thursday once every two weeks. What? This is my favorite part. Is that real? Yeah. Yeah, that's real.

Why? Okay, so first of all, Alan's got his work schedule. They can only do this during his lunch breaks. And he can kind of come and go. He's high up enough in the company. But, okay. But, you know, it's got to be around that noon hour. But, you know, Candy, she's not just sitting on her ass all day. She's got things to do.

Plus, she's got the two kids. So on Tuesdays and Thursdays, there's a Mother's Day out thing probably through the church but okay my favorite thing is she didn't want to tell him oh yeah Tuesdays and Thursdays I'm yours I'll be holding my ankles every Tuesday so

so she was like I you know I like to use that time to run errands Tuesdays and Thursdays for my own things, like masturbation. Which I just learned about. Hey, maybe I don't need to have an affair. Hold on a second. I can do this to myself. I think we're blowing some minds today.

So yeah, that's why. It's their schedules. Okay. All right. Candy wanted to still be able to run her errands. All right. There's – okay. Here's the problem.

Okay. They have put so much planning into this that, like, the anticipation has been building and building and building and building and building. There's no way it's going to live up to, like to the expectations that they are holding at this point. Do you know what's so funny? I actually cut a part of the Texas Monthly article where she said basically exactly that. She's like giggling on the phone with him. She's like, if you don't go to bed with me soon, you know, you're never going to live up to what you are in my head. And he was like, yeah, I've thought about that.

And he's kind of real worried. But we're not even through with the ground rules, Brandy. Oh, I'm sorry. Candy will fix a lunch on the days they meet up. What? So that Alan will get to eat lunch and also have sex and get back to work at a decent time. He can eat lunch and

candy. Okay. Okay. You should see how proud she is. She's just brilliant, comedic mind over here. Candy will get the motel room, again, to save Alan's valuable time. Okay. So those are the ground rules of the sexiest sex of all time.

And so once they hammered out all their rules, they were like, okay, the affair will begin on December 12th, 1987. Secret nice year watches. Stupid. I don't think I need to tell you that December 12th, 1987 was a very exciting day for them both.

You want to know how exciting it was? How? What are you about to say? I was one and a half years old that day. Oh, my God. Norm was six months old that day. And you know what? They thought of you two the whole time.

There. How's that for a little revenge for bringing that up? Now you're really grossed out, aren't you? As was decreed by their sex contract, Candy booked a motel and prepared a lunch. She fixed marinated chicken, salad with tomatoes, bacon bits, and Thousand Island dressing. Very 80s. White wine and cheesecake. Is that not the most 80s to you?

It's a very 80s meal. Then she took it all in a picnic basket like a sexy yogi bear and went to the motel and laid out the food on the bed. She laid it on the bed? I agree. I think that's a weird move. That's a weird move. Aren't you going to bang on the bed? Right.

I mean, have you not discussed what you're there to do, Candy? Discussed it until you're blue in the face? Yeah. Blue in the balls? I mean, good grief. Then she put on a sexy sheer negligee that went down to her ankles. It was pink. When Alan arrived at the motel room, he was nervous.

But so was Candy. Apparently, she took a bite of the chicken. She was like, I feel like what we're eating. Like a chicken? Yeah. But after they ate their marinated chicken and drank their wine, the good times rolled. The sex was fine.

Yeah, exactly. Okay, it's gonna sound like I'm making this up. I swear I'm not. It turned out Alan had never had a French kiss before. What? Yeah, this is the guy she thought would be delivering the fireworks.

Oh, no. The affair went on, you know, every other week. Candy would fix some very dated dish, and they'd bang, and it'd be okay, and they'd talk, and they'd shower, and then they'd talk. And they'd shower. And then they'd go back to their normal lives. For Alan, this was thrilling. It was like the one time in his life that he didn't have to worry about anybody else. You know what?

Okay. Again, this Texas Monthly article is amazing. It goes into a ton of detail. And as I was reading this part, I kept thinking about the way some people talk about getting a regular massage. Oh, yeah. It's just my me time. Yeah. That's how it sounds like he was viewing this affair.

Just like, you know what? This is my one time. I'm doing it for me. And so I went in there and I said, go ahead and give me the balayage. Because, you know, this is just my me time. Think about that the next time someone comes in wanting a new do. Be like, man, this person could be having bad sex in a motel, but instead they've come to me for their transcendent experience. Candy was a little less thrilled.

I mean, she'd wanted fireworks, and all she got was a little box of the snappers. You remember those things? But despite the ho-hum sex, Candy worried she might be falling in love with Alan. No, Lord. But again, and I cannot emphasize this enough, the sex was not great. The Texas Monthly guys, they really went after it. So when Ellen came to Candy one day and said, hey, you know, Betty is super pregnant and she needs more attention. I think I need to focus on her and stop the affair.

Candy took it like a champ. She was like, I get it. no problem, focus on your wife. And in a way, Candy focused on his wife, too, because she threw Betty a surprise baby shower at her house. Just like a good friend. Yeah. But then that summer, the baby was born and the affair was back on. This time it was duller than ever.

Yes. Yeah, it just wasn't the same. It wasn't the same. Alan felt guilty. Plus, Candy was a little snippy with him, and that was just not okay. Okay, I cut this part, too. But, like, you know, she was getting exhausted having to make this dude meals all the time. And, like, when she'd been, like, falling in love, she'd, like, left brownies on his car while he was at work. And so then he started to expect the stuff.

And, you know, then. Fucking Alan. Mm-hmm. I want my cake and my sexy times, too. Yeah. What's this? An Italian kiss? Oh, a French kiss.

Gotcha. Yeah. Boy. She really picked wrong that day on the volleyball court. I think she did. And, you know, one time they banged. And then later that night, for the first time in, like, maybe ever, Betty made a move on Alan. But Alan couldn't perform because Candy had drained him earlier.

Why did we all get why he couldn't perform? I don't think any more details were needed there, Kristen. You know what? You explained a screen door to death. So I will not hear it. door to death so i will not hear it and then betty cried because she thought that he thought that she was unattractive and alan felt guilty so he told candy that they needed to end things but it took them a long time to start this affair and it took them a very long time to end the affair because they argued and they talked and they talked and they talked.

And Cliff's notes, because this part is not nearly as funny to me, you know, Alan ended it partly because Betty was like, hey, I want to go to that marriage encounter thing. And so they left their kids with Candy and they went to the marriage encounter. Candy was not thrilled. She thought that Alan and Betty working on their marriage might mean that he wouldn't want to have an affair anymore. Yeah.

But Alan told her, oh, no, no, no, not necessarily. Let's just see what happens first. These people are boring as fuck. I'm not sure I really want to think it over here. So Alan and Betty showed up at the marriage encounter, and it was magical. There were no TVs, no newspapers.

It was just them and their feelings. Alan's name tag read Alan and Betty Gore, and Betty's name tag read Betty and Betty Gore and Betty's name tag read Betty and Alan Gore and they did everything as a couple including having conversations with other couples apparently like if you and David go to this thing like David can't just go chit-chatting with somebody he's gonna include you basically tied together the whole time All right. They'd go to a big room, be asked a question like, what do I like best about my spouse? And how do I feel about that? And then they'd write down their answers in little notebooks and show each other the notebooks. It was all very intense.

At the end, all the couples were remarried in a commitment ceremony. And Betty and Alan felt closer than ever. They'd shared their feelings with one another. Betty got vulnerable. She talked about her struggles with sex. She said she'd been brought up to believe that sex was dirty and wrong. Alan didn't get super vulnerable, but you know, he was quite moved by the whole experience. He was probably thinking about whether he should get vulnerable and doing a frozen contest and he decided that he really needed to end things with candy like you know for real this time pretty sure okay but he was too much of a weenie to come out and say it so he kind of hinted at it and candy told him that she couldn't

deal with not seeing him. And he hemmed and hawed, and finally Candy was like, fine, if you can't end it, I will. We're done. And Alan was like, whew! Because he was a big weenie, and he couldn't make a decision to save his life. But, you know, with the affair over, things were really working out for betty and alan

they were planning a trip to europe just the two of them it would be so romantic hi everyone this is james harkin and anna tschinsky from no street singers of fish and we have a new podcast it's called quite a good sport whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between we will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to each other. We are not going for gold in Paris, but we will be competing with each other

at some of these sports, giving it a go ourselves. If you want to know what a rigger jigger is, if you want to know what the size of a room means to your table tennis game, or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls, find out by listening to Quite a Good Spot,

available wherever you get your podcasts. But then came June 13th, 1980. Friday the 13th. Everything was totally fine, so don't worry about it. This is the end of the story it's just a kind of a boring affair no um i'm side note real quick it was previously 1987 and now in your story it's 1980 did i say 87 i said 77 1977 okay maybe i misheard you. Hang on. Let me control F. 1987.

Shit! I did write 87! Oh, no! Okay, here's what we have to do. Beep, beep, beep, a-deep, a-deep, beep! Attention, everyone. Brandy has just brought to my attention that I said 87 earlier in the story. It was not 87.

Yeah, whoopsies, fudge stripes. I got a little mixed up with my numbers. Anyway, just listen to the story. The years don't matter. No, no, no. What is time anyway? Social construct. You don't listen to these stories for the cold hard facts.

No. I'll tell you that for sure. So, you know, that day, Friday the 13th, what year was it? Who gives a shit? There was a puppet show being held at the church and Candy was supposed to be there for it, but she was running late. It happens. You know, sometimes we run late. Nothing to see here. She ran into her friend Barbara in the parking lot and just real casually said,

I went down to Betty's and we just got to talking and then I looked at my watch and I thought I had time to go to Target and get Father's Day cards and I drove all the way to Plano, but then when I got there, I realized my watch had stopped and I was late, so I didn't even go in. We're taking Alyssa with us to see The Empire Strikes Back. That reminds me, I better go check on the kids. Okay, so what the fuck had Candy really been up to? Um.

Did she murder Betty? Candy may have delivered that little speech with blood dripping down her face. No big deal happens to the best of us. You're bleeding right now. She might have also been limping at the time. Okay, great. And

no big deal. She was wearing tennis shoes, even though she always wore sandals in the summertime. But if it's a crime to change up your footwear then lock me up so so candy picked up her kids and betty and alan's oldest daughter alissa and then she called pat at work she was real casual with him too she said pat uh we just got home from bible school and wanted to be sure you get enough money at the bank because alissa's going to the movie with us.

The kids nagged about it after you left this morning. And so I promised them I'd ask Betty if Alyssa could stay another night. But then I had to go to Betty's to pick up Alyssa's swimsuit. And we got to talking and I lost track of time. And then I went to Target and I noticed my watch had stopped and I missed the whole Bible school program. And Pat, who did not give two shits about all this was just like uh-huh okay cool story and candy was like hey do you know where alan is today and pat was like alan gore no why and she was like oh no big deal i'm pretty casual as you can tell and then she leaned up against the wall, but it wasn't a wall.

It was just air. So she just fell to the floor. Here's the thing. Alan was out of town. He was on a business trip in St. Paul. And it had been tough for Alan to leave because Betty hated when he went on business trips. She felt scared and alone and just like completely off kilter. So when he got to the airport, he tried calling Betty at home.

But she didn't answer. For the rest of the day, he kept calling her. But he never got an answer. He started to get nervous. What was going on at home? Why wouldn't Betty answer the phone? He was sure she hadn't gone anywhere. I mean, she hadn't mentioned anything. So finally, he broke down and called a neighbor and asked him to check on Betty.

In the meantime, he also called Candy. He told her he couldn't get a hold of Betty. And Candy was just so concerned. She was like, wow, I saw her today and everything seemed fine. She said, when I went over to pick up Alyssa's bathing suit, she was okay. I remember she was sewing and we just talked for a while and she gave me some peppermints for Alyssa and told me how she couldn't put her head underwater unless she got a peppermint afterward. And I took the peppermints and I left. Okay. I'm breezy. And this part I think is a little long and drawn out, but the bottom line is as Alan's

anxiety rose, he called another neighbor and another neighbor because he didn't trust the first guy to just break down the door and find out what was going on with Betty. So finally, three of his neighbors went over to the Gore home, located at... Oh! Mm-hmm. Oh! I'm ready!

Did you just have an orgasm? I'm so excited! 410 Dogwood Drive, Wiley, Texas. W-Y-L-I-E. I've got it. Just shut up! Shut up! I'm looking at it now-I-E. I've got it. Just shut up! Shut up! I'm looking at it now!

Three beds, two baths. 1697 square feet. One story brick home. Looks like a Texas house. Looks like a Texas house. You know what? It does look like a Texas house. You watch enough of that Chip and Joanna Gaines.

You've seen this place a thousand times. That's right. It's real cute. It's very cute. Someone has updated it nicely. Yeah, they've done a great job. Hats off to them. Surely they know this is the murder house.

Spoiler alert. Did somebody get murdered here? Did Betty get murdered here? Are the neighbors about to find Betty murdered here? No, Candy's totally innocent. She's just totally chill. I don't know if you listened at all, but, you know, she was at the thing and then the watch stopped and the

target... I don't like how they have their bedroom furniture. I'm just gonna be real honest here. What's your problem with their bedroom furniture? There's a nightstand just, like, right next to the dresser. The fuck's that doing there? Damn it.

I closed it out. Let me. What are you doing? Let me open it back up. Let me judge these people too. I won't have you being the only one judging. That's right. You can't.

Someone bought this last year. Yeah. Let me know when you're in the bedroom. There's also just way too much furniture in this bedroom. There's a fucking fireplace. I'm guessing it's literally a fucking fireplace. What do you mean literally? They fuck in front of this fireplace.

Okay. What other reason would there be to have a little fireplace in the bedroom? I have a little fireplace in my bedroom. Yours is built into the home. When this house was built, that was the source of heat for the bedroom. I have a little fireplace in my bedroom. Yours is built into the home. When this house was built, that was the source of heat for the bedroom. This is a piece of furniture. I don't know that it really

is the source of heat in the bedroom. Okay, my computer's not letting me go down. Jesus. Really struggling. Alright, fine. They're really trying to ward off vampires in these bedrooms, too. Oh, yeah. The crosses. My god, the crosses. There's a whole lot of crosses on the walls.

Alright, cute house. Cute house. Okay, anyway. Hang on. I'm back online here. Make it. Looks like we made it. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah. oh yeah yeah well in their defense this is an oddly shaped room it is an oddly shaped room and they've done the best they can do with it but just don't have that second nightstand in there there's no need for that there's a night

stand next to the bed you know what i have to agree with you wholeheartedly there is way too much stuff in this house there's so much goddamn stuff and yeah that little fireplace totally unnecessary yes it's out of control I hate it you know what

we're being rude but I'm just going to say one more rude thing they've got a lot of fake plants in that bathroom. Yes, they do. So many fake plants. Yes, they do. There are one, two, three, four, five in a three-square-foot area. And you know those are covered in poo particles.

That's right. There's no way there's not poo particles. Just feces dust all over those. Mm-hmm. Feces dust. All right. Okay, so I think we've roasted that pretty sufficiently. Anyway, okay, so the three neighbors show up, and they're going to go into the house at 410 Dogwood, and Betty's dead inside.

They discovered that the front door was unlocked. Mm-hmm. I'm going to have to ask you to back, back, back it up. They opened it, called Betty's name, but didn't get a response. They walked through the house, and they were stunned to discover the baby sitting alone in her crib. Oh, no, I hate that. She was.

Why'd you have to tell us that? Okay, I have kept some stuff out, Why'd you have to tell us that? Okay, I have kept some stuff out. But she was very dirty and her voice was hoarse from crying. It was obvious she'd been alone for a very long time. That poor baby. I tell you what, having a baby has softened you significantly. It has.

I'm about to cry at this poor baby. You literally, before you had a baby, you covered infant deaths and you were like, she had it coming. She had it coming. Wow. The Grinch's heart grew

three sizes that day. So one of the men grabbed the baby and took her back to his house where he called the police. In the meantime, the two other men kept walking through the house and one of them opened the door to the utility room. And he just flipped.

He slammed the door shut and he was like, she's dead. She's blown her head off. They called the police again and called alan and of course alan was devastated the neighbor told alan that it looked like betty had been shot shortly after alan got off the phone with his neighbor he called candy he still could not believe it he told candy i know that there have been some things bothering her lately and i know she's been upset and she was two weeks late with her period, but I never thought that she would...

So he assumes she's taken her own life. That's kind of what everyone assumed at first. Yeah, okay. Because it was clear it wasn't a robbery. Yeah. No one really had any motive to do this. Soon, word spread about Betty's death. People were shocked.

It was so sad. Alan rushed home, and soon more details emerged. Betty's death had not been a suicide. She'd been brutally murdered with an axe. side she'd been brutally murdered with an axe she had been struck 41 times the majority of the blows had been to her head holy shit detectives had the murder weapon and they had a bloody footprint of candies a petite footprint. So those details kind of seeped out into the community. Was it a sandal and that's why she changed into her

tennis shoes? If you don't keep your pants on, I will kick you out of this house! So, you know, these details seep out. Oh, they've got a bloody footprint. And Candy, just a coincidence, I am

sure, because this is what we all do when we're super sick of a pair of shoes we've got. She took her rubber sandals and cut them into tiny pieces with some garden shears and then she threw them out in the trash. You know how it is when you're just like, I can't even look at these anymore. I cut up my fucking shoes.

Who hasn't cut up a pair of shoes before? Am I right? No. What kind of fucking weirdo? No, it's not weird. She's a fucking murderer. Yes, obviously. There's nothing weird about this.

Initially, investigators did not view Candy as a suspect, but it did seem that she had been one of the last people to see Betty alive. So they questioned her and questioned her. She was just there to get the peppermints and the bathing suit. And then she went to Target and she couldn't even go into Target because her watch died and she missed the whole thing. The Father's Day cards, the Bible school. Yeah. What? I don't want to go to Wonderland.

She just turns into a chicken. I thought it was more of a turkey. Oh, it was a turkey, wasn't it? You didn't know the difference between a turkey and ham, so. All right, calm down. Calm down. I'm not the one on trial here, all right? Candy is.

So just shut it, ma'am. So they talked to her. She didn't reveal anything. She was super innocent. She was just a real nice lady with an adorable first name. She did have some bruises and, you know, marks on her hands, but that was because her dog had just jumped all over her and just, you know, really banged up her hands.

Okay. Not from the axe murder that she just committed? Oh, whoa. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. It's her very mean dog. Mm-hmm. But, you know, finally, Alan told the police, hey, just so you know, Candy and I were having an affair.

It ended seven months ago. And they were like, oh, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Sounds like a motive. And they did this dance that they made up at the moment. Sorry, I had a brain fart there. They did, too. That was just me telling you what happened in the moment. It wasn't me being dumb.

That's for sure. So they're kind of like, all right, all right. So they're looking at her a little more closely now, and they found out that Candy's dog was an old fat basset hound. And they were like, okay, this dog didn't jump all over you. So I just love the idea of a big old dog.

Are you picturing droopy dog? I'm, you know what? I'm kind of picturing peanut just because for the end of her life, she, I mean, she couldn't even sit. Yeah, wasn't doing a lot of jumping. So it'd be like if I murdered you with an ax and then was like, oh, yeah, my vicious diabetic dog.

She's the reason for my bruises. So they arrested her and Candy was charged with Betty's murder. But don't worry. She got out on bail and had the brass balls it took to go to church while this whole thing was going on. Can you fucking believe that? No.

She hired an attorney named Don Crowder and he didn't have any experience on murder cases. He mostly did personal injury cases. But Don went to church with her and Candy really liked the dudes she went to church with. Ah!

No, Don seems pretty darn sharp. So they sat down together, and when he asked her what had happened on June 13, 1980, dates don't matter, Candy was a little foggy. So Don made the decision to call in Dr. Fred Faison, candy was a little foggy. So Don made the decision to call in Dr. Fred Faison, psychiatrist slash clinical hypnotist to the wealthy.

Yeah, and he was like, it looks like we're facing a real tough case here. Dr. Faison was pumped to be part of the case. I hate that I like that. I hate it. It was the talk of the town. So he began meeting with Candy, and, of course, he hypnotized her. And over the course of multiple sessions, he got the terrible story out of her, along with stories of her childhood trauma. He also did this trick where now anytime someone says the word potato,

she falls to the floor and shouts obscenities. He didn't need to do that, but, you know, you got to have fun with your job. Yeah, that's right. So the defense now knew the full story thanks to the hypnosis. And when October 1980 rolled around, they were ready. Candy showed up for her trial dressed like an innocent old school marm yes and hey good news this was a huge trial it attracted a ton of media attention and it was the only thing that had ever happened in this town but don't worry they didn't get a

change of venue didn't need it um they They had this whole thing in the old courtroom downtown because it was a little bigger, because they wanted to accommodate all the people who wanted to watch the trial. Hey, you know the fun thing about living in a small town and having your jury pulled from that same small town? You know them all? Yeah, you see some familiar faces. Three of the jurors were either friends with Candy or friends with the attorneys. The jury foreman was the defense attorney's daughter's soccer coach.

That's a conflict of interest. Yeah, seems bad. Yeah. Bad. But before this thing could get underway, the defense argued that the jury shouldn't see too many pictures of Betty's body.

It might inflame them. And Judge Tom Ryan agreed because he didn't want anyone bursting into flames. That's what inflame means, right? Is it? The jury would only see one photo of Betty's body. Really?

Yeah. Okay. So, okay, I want to pause with some stuff I didn't write down just to give a little context. Just to give a little context. So Don, you know, he had no experience with this stuff, but he was kind of a bulldog in the courtroom. Like he, this old judge, well he wasn't that old. This judge was not used to people back talking him. And Don was just sassy as hell.

He ended up getting fined a whole bunch because he broke the gag order because he was just chit-chatting with the media all the time. All the live long day. All the live long day and he was like he was really fucking with the prosecution because he was like, you know, maybe we'll do this strategy. Maybe we'll do this strategy. Blah, blah, blah. You get the idea. During jury selection

the defense made a stunning announcement. Dawn admitted Candy had killed Betty Gore. But she'd done it in self-defense. Bull fucking shit. You don't hack somebody to death 45 times with an axe in self-defense. I agree. Not 45, but what about 41? That sounds like self-defense, right?

No. This is ridiculous. The prosecution was stunned. They were totally unprepared for this. Yeah. Because they'd been thinking, okay, they're probably going to argue insanity. Or maybe they'll try to be like, oh, not guilty. Here's my stupid ass alibi.

They were not prepared for a self-defense argument. Because, again, the victim had been stabbed so many times. So few people do stabbings with an axe. Oh, I'm sorry. It's a hard way to do it usually you hack with the axe not candy this was her first time yeah hopefully only time so the trial moved forward and the prosecution presented their case you know the affair candy was the last one to see Betty alive, the damage done to Betty's body. Candy's bloody thumbprint was at the scene. There was evidence that she tried to wipe the scene down. They had people come in and talk about all

of Candy's lies. Allen testified about their 10 month affair, just giving them all the deets. But under cross-examination, he said that it ended with no resentment and without Betty's knowledge. When the defense took over, Candy took the stand and told her side of the story. Oh, okay, hold on. Oh, she's getting excited. All right, what'd Candy say? Okay, now this is all thanks to hypnosis, okay? Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. On the day Betty died, she was expecting Candy to show up at her house around noon. But Candy showed up early, and Betty seemed a little annoyed, but let her in anyway. And Candy was like, hey, I have a favor to ask. The kids want Alyssa to see the movie with us tonight. And if it's okay with you, I'll take her to swim lessons, too, so that you don't have to make the extra trip. And Betty was like, yeah, that's fine. And offered her some coffee and they chit chatted. And finally Candy was like, well, I gotta run. Could you grab me Alyssa's swimsuit?

And Betty didn't move. She stared at Candy and finally she said, Candy, are you having an affair with Alan? And Candy was like, no, of course not. But she said it like super fast. And Betty said,

but you did, didn't you? Candy was caught. So she said, yes, but it was a long time ago. They sat in silence. It was so fucking tense. And then Betty said, wait a minute. And she left the room.

And when she came back in she was holding an axe. She wasn't holding it like super threateningly. It was clear she wasn't used to threatening people with an axe. But still it was an axe and she was holding it and you know Candy got the point.

Yeah. That's a message that comes across pretty clearly. Betty said don't see him again. And Candy said, under the circumstances, I think I'll just bring Alyssa home and drop her off right after Bible school. And Betty said, no, I don't want to see you anymore. Just keep Alyssa and take her to the movie because I don't want to look at you again. Bring her home tomorrow. Just keep Alyssa and take her to the movie because I don't want to look at you again.

Bring her home tomorrow. And with that, Betty sat the ex down and said she'd get a towel from the bathroom. And she told Candy to get Alyssa's swimsuit from the laundry room. It was all very awkward and there was discussion of the peppermints, you know. And Candy felt terrible. So she put her hand on Betty's arm and she said, oh, Betty, I'm so sorry. And Betty lost it. She shoved Candy away and grabbed the axe, holding it with a blade pointed toward the floor and said, you can't have him.

You can't have him. I'm going to have a baby and you can't have him. And Candy said, Betty, don't. This is stupid. I don't have him. I'm going to have a baby and you can't have him. And Candy said, Betty, don't. This is stupid. I don't want Alan. Both of them had their hands on the axe, but Betty tried to jerk it away. She said, I've got to kill you. She got control of the axe and raised it and it hit the side of Candy's head.

And Candy said, Betty, stop. But Betty wouldn't stop. She raised the axe over her head. She brought it crashing down, and Candy screamed. But the axe missed her. It bounced on the linoleum floor of the utility room and cut Candy's toe. Candy grabbed hold of the axe. She wasn't scared anymore, just angry.

They wrestled for control of it back and forth, back and forth. And finally, Candy shoved Betty. And as Betty fell back, facing away from Candy, Candy struck her in the back of the head. Candy was terrified. She'd killed Betty. She wanted to flee, but before she could, Betty moved. Betty picked up the axe. Candy said, let me go, Betty, please let me go.

And Betty said, I can't. So they wrestled again for control of the axe. The floor was slick with blood. Candy tried to flee out the garage door, but Betty wouldn't let her. Candy said, Betty, don't. Please let me go. I don't want him. I don't want him. But with one hand on the axe and a finger raised to her lips, Betty said, Shhh. And that was real bad. Because one time when Candy was a child her mom told her shh and this triggered a

psychic alarm and so she grabbed the axe and they wrestled again but finally Candy gained the upper hand and she didn't let it go she was filled with rage filled with hate she hit Betty with the axe 41 times 28 of the wounds were to the head and 40 of them were inflicted while her heart was still beating. Oh, my gosh. For what it's worth, that's what the more modern sources say. I went back and looked at newspapers.com from when this was all going on, and they all say 15 blows with an axe. But anyway. Okay.

So, you know, Candy relayed this story to the jury crying as she did it it's a pretty good story why do you say that it's almost believable okay okay afterward her attorney asked her when you went over there, did you mean to kill her with that axe? And Candy said, no. And then he went over and he grabbed the axe and he brought it over to the witness box. And he said, but you did kill her with the axe, didn't you? And she said, yes. He goes, this axe right here. She said, don't make me look at it.

But he shoved it in her face. This is her attorney doing this? Yeah, mm-hmm. She said, don't. And he said, you killed her with this axe right here, didn't you? And Candy screamed. She burst into tears. And she said, yes.

Oh, my goodness gracious. For the rest of the day, her attorney hammered at her. What about this lie you told? What about this? How do you explain that? And Candy was calm and direct as she answered each of his questions. Coached. Got anything else to say?

He was well rehearsed. Hmm. I think this is a pretty good defense. Got anything else to say? He was well rehearsed. Hmm. Hmm. I think this is a pretty good defense. Yeah, I mean, it's real hard to claim self-defense when you hacked away at someone 41 times. And all you walked away with was an ouchie on your toe and a cut on your head. Yeah. Also, Candy was smaller than Betty.

Mm-hmm. Anyway, Prosecutor Tom O'Connell was like, oh, shit biscuits. So when it was time for him to question her, he had her repeat the story. He was hoping he could expose discrepancies between the two stories. But there really weren't any so instead he was like well you're a real turd because you left an infant alone and you lied to everyone and you know that's a fair point in my opinion you didn't really call her a turd but you know there was a vibe you know you know that turd vibe tur Yeah, turd vibe. Then the psychiatrist slash hypnotist took the stand as well as another expert.

And he was like, yeah, you know, when Betty shushed candy, it triggered a real bad memory from childhood and it filled Candy with rage. And that's why she just went nutso. Okay. What? If that's really the direction they're going, wouldn't temporary insanity be a better argument than self-defense? Yeah, I would think so. Yeah. I think, yeah, at that point you're not saying it was in defense.

She went into a rage because she was triggered by some memory from when she was a kid. No, that's also explaining things, Brandi, but the real thing to know is that Betty came at her with the axe. Betty was evidently just bad with the axe, and Candy turns out to be great with it. Yeah, right. I think this whole thing is steamy, creamy bullshit. Oh, I do, too. This idea that she was, like, constantly trying to get away. Yeah.

And Betty, who had been axed in the back of the head, somehow had the upper hand most of the time. Yes, I think it's a well-crafted story, but I think it's bullshit. I don't even think it's well-crafted. I really don't. I think it's stupid. Anyway, we'll get into it. We're going to keep going. So this trial only lasted a few days.

Or did it last for four months? One source said it lasted four months, but every other source said a few days. So we'll go with that. Maybe it lasted from 1980 to 1987. Who knows? Who knows? In closing arguments,

Dawn Crowder said, when Betty Gore came at Candy Montgomery, she was no longer a human being. She was an animal. There won't be a day in the life of Candace Montgomery that she won't remember she committed this act. Don't rob this woman. Don't rob her two children. Don't rob this husband and wife. You are here to do justice, not extract revenge. I'd say that's pretty bold to call the victim of a crime an animal.

Yeah. Yeah. When she's the one who was brutally murdered. Yeah. And I'm saving it. Okay. All right. Don't let me get off track.

Keep it on. Interestingly, one reporter said that in closing arguments, the prosecution didn't say anything to dispute the idea that Candy had acted in self-defense. But I saw some other articles from that time period, and they said that he told the jury that this was a classic case of overkill. He said, even if you are attacked, that does not give you the right to kill someone. He also pointed out that the evidence didn't match a self-defense case. He reminded the jury that investigators had found a bloody lens from Candy's sunglasses in the Gore's garage, but she'd claimed that the entire attack happened in the utility room. The jury deliberated for less than five hours. Yeah, because she's guilty as fuck.

They found her not guilty. Shut up! Shut up! Shut up! Can you believe this? No! They acquitted her. Yep.

What? Are you fucking with me right now? I am not. I am not. Now, here's the thing. I didn't even think about this. I guess potentially a reason you wouldn't do not guilty by reason of insanity is you can't just like walk. No, you don't just walk then you go to a mental hospital. But you know how you just walk? Yeah, you get. defense. So I think a huge factor in this was that the jury only saw one photo of her dead body. And I didn't see any crime scene photos, thank God. But everything I read from the detectives

on this case is like, this was incredibly gruesome. Yeah. Yeah. It was horrible. So I think seeing those photos would probably make the jury go, OK, this wasn't just I'm going to defend myself and leave. Yeah. It sounds and maybe this is unfair, but it also sounds like the prosecution really didn't change up their case enough to fit the defense. Yeah. I say that, but even then I'm kind of like, who can blame them? If the other side was represented by an attorney who'd never done a criminal case before, and he comes in and says, oh, yeah, my client who hacked someone to death did it in self-defense,

I'd be like, ha, ha, ha, ha ha ha, okay, I'm gonna keep on keeping on with exactly what I'd planned. Gosh. I cannot believe that. Yeah. After the trial, Candy moved to Georgia, and you're gonna think this is a fucking joke.

She became a family counselor. What? She and Pat family counselor. What? Mm-hmm. She and Pat stayed together? What? I know. I know. They did later divorce.

But she now goes by Candace Wheeler, which was her maiden name, and she's a therapist. A therapist. That is alarming. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Right? And I guess she's been contacted by the media several times, you know, to see if she wants to comment, and she is not interested. I mean, yeah.

Who would be? Yeah. You got away with murder, so you better just keep your mouth shut and give advice to other people, I guess. Holy shit. About how to get away with murder. Mm-hmm. Alan remarried right away, but then later divorced. And his daughters were raised by Betty's parents.

Really? Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. He was trying to figure out whether he wanted to raise them himself, and by the time he got it figured out, they were adults. Sorry, that was a rude joke. Don Crowder, Candy's defense attorney, died by suicide in 1998. I read a little bit of an article about him.

He sounded very interesting. And if you want more of this story, you are in luck because HBO is creating a series called Love and Death. And Elizabeth Olsen is the lead. And Hulu is working on a series called Candy. And Elizabeth Moss is the lead. She can only be played by Elizabeths. Evidently. That's what we've all declared. And that's the story of an axe murderer.

Holy shit. When I was working on this, I kept telling Norm, Brandy's going to love this. Brandy's going to love this. Brandy's going to love this. This infuriates me. I cannot believe she got away with this. I think in a small town, a jury who has some connections to her,

they totally bought her story. Because I think we are both very skeptical. And I was like, all right, I feel like they, I know you were not. You were like, this is bullshit the whole time. But I was like, I don't know, this is pretty good. This is a pretty good version. Yeah, I can see how if you want to believe that people are basically good. The funny thing was, my initial take was like, oh, the community is going to stand by her.

Because sometimes we see that in these stories. In this one, no. Once this all came out, the community was disgusted. Get the fuck out of this town. Yeah. But, I mean, one article put it in kind of a funny way, but they were like, you know, the 12 people who mattered most, they didn't think she was guilty. Oh, my gosh. I cannot believe she was acquitted.

No. No, I can't believe it either. Poor Betty. Yeah. And those poor little girls. Yeah. And those poor little girls. Yeah. I mean, they're grown women now, but. Whew.

Holy shit. Pat also testified. Sorry, there was a lot I had to cut. Yeah. Pat also testified. Yeah, those Texas Monthly articles are meaty. They are the meatiest of boys. Yes. They're like those, you know, you ever walk into a place, it's like, if you can finish our big honking dong burger, then you get your picture on the wall.

It's never called a big honking dong. Big honking dong burger. But yeah, that's what a Texas Monthly article is. It is. It's a big honking dong. But yeah, he, this wasn't even in the text. Anyway, he testified and he's like, yeah, my wife hates violence. It's like, okay.

All right. Okay. All right, man. Okay. Whew. Yeah. That was a doozy. Oh my gosh, that was an hour and a half.

Yeah. It was amazing. Doozy. A doozy. was a doozy. Oh my gosh, that was an hour and a half. Yeah. It was amazing. It was a doozy. A doozy. Quite a doozy. Hi everyone, this is James Harkin and Anna Tyshinsky from No Street Singers of Fish and we have a new podcast. It's called Quite a Good Sport.

Whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between, we will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to each other. We are not going for gold in Paris, but we will be competing with each other at some of these sports, giving it a go ourselves. If you want to know what a rigger jigger is, if you want to know what the size of a room means to your table tennis game, or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls, find out by listening to Quite a Good Spot, available wherever you get your podcasts. All right, you ready to talk about a murder?

Mm-hmm. Tell me all about it. Okay. Here we go. The murder about which I'm going to tell you is not particularly sensational. Hmm. You kind of sitting the bar low here. What's going on?

A bored housewife and a salesman had an affair and then hatched a plot to kill her husband for insurance money. Same old story. Same old song and dance, my friend. Rock, sea, heart. However, when it happened in 1927. Wait, is this? Holy shit. Are you talking about the real Roxy Hart?

No, I'm not. Oh, okay. Boy, I got excited. Keep your fucking pants on. You're going to be excited. Okay. You're going to like this one. Why are you?

Okay. All right. Did we give each other gifts today? I think we did. All right. I think we did. And it starts with Desperate Half-Lives. However, when it happened in 1927, there was a major tabloid press war going on in New York City between the Daily Graphic, the Daily News, and the Daily Mirror, which was owned by William Randolph Hearst. Fun fact.

William Randolph Hearst. Fun fact. In an effort to outsell the others, each paper would latch on to some small story that most people typically wouldn't be interested in. And then they'd print a few facts, embellish a few lurid details, put a nice little bow on it, and bing, bang, boom, you've got yourself a media sensation. All right. Sounds a little unethical, but okay. It does.

The tabloids, according to Maureen Beasley, who is a journalism professor at the University of Maryland. Familiar with her? Do you think I know all the journalism people? Yes. Ah, yes. Maureen. I call her Mo.

She said, the tabloids did not hesitate to make up details because there wasn't a strict adherence to the facts by any means. All right. They would print anything to draw the readers in. Because of this tabloid war, the papers in New York City latched onto this murder almost immediately and followed it all the way through the trial. From there, it inspired books and movies and plays, and it really turned into quite the sensation. So I say all of this to say because of that, there is a lot of information that was written about this case that was later believed to be embellishment and flat-out lies. So old-timey disclaimer to the max. The information I've included here seems to be to the best of my knowledge and the best

of my sources knowledge to be as close to the true story as we can get. But fun fact, the way we do these cases is we read a bunch of stories and then we add our own flair. is we read a bunch of stories and then we add our own flair. So I now present, for your listening pleasure, The Murder of Albert Schneider by Ruth Schneider and Judd Gray. Okay, I'm so excited. Albert Schneider, as he was known in 1914,

met Ruth Brown in an unusual way. One day while he was working as the art director for Motor Boating Magazine, which I was disappointed to learn is apparently about the sport of boating and not a titty man. Real missed opportunity. Yes. So anyway, Albert was at work and he received a wrong number call from a young woman who was working as a switchboard operator. She was supposed to be contacting some manufacturing company or something, but somehow had accidentally contacted Albert. Something about this wrong number call really set Albert off. And he let loose on this poor young woman on the other end of the line. When he was finished telling the operator off, he was surprised by the sweet, angelic voice that

offered him a sincere apology for her mistake. So Albert was known as being quick to temper, but he was also known to cool down just as quickly. And this situation was no different. He immediately felt bad for berating this young woman and asked her where she worked so he could apologize in person. Oh, no. Uh-uh. And a couple of hours later, he showed up at her workplace and apologized. Hey, I'm the huge douchebag from earlier.

Aren't you glad you get to meet me? Yeah. Yeah. And when he saw this beautiful, blonde-haired, 19-year-old Ruth Brown, he was instantly captivated. Her friends called her Brownie. That's cute. Just, like, for fun.

I think it's really cute. friends called her Brownie. That's cute. Just like for fun. I think it's really cute. But Albert knew right away that he just wanted to see more of Ruth. And so he began just swinging by the telephone switchboard place where she worked

pretty regularly. And a couple of weeks into these like... How old is he again? I haven't told you yet. Okay. Okay. He's 32. Ew. Okay. Okay. He's 32. Ew. Uh-huh.

All right. Great. Yep. So he's swinging by pretty regularly. A couple weeks go by and he's like, hey, how about I get you

a job as a reader and copyist because I know exactly what both of those positions are at motorboating. She was like, is that a titty mag? And he was like, no, it's about the sport at motorboating. She was like, is that a titty mag? And he was like, no, it's about the sport of motorboating.

I don't feel so alone now that I know she made the same mistake I did. And so to Ruth, this sounded like, you know, a step up from the job she currently had. And she was like, great, that'd be wonderful. And so he got her a job and the two were soon dating. And Ruth was really flattered by this older, sophisticated man's attention. Was he really that sophisticated? I mean, he yelled at random people. He was very sophisticated.

He was 32. Okay. So she likes the attention that she's getting from this older, sophisticated man. But what she doesn't like is that he is constantly making passes at her. Ruth was a virgin

and planned to remain a virgin until her wedding night. And Albert was very frustrated by this. He thought for sure that he'd be able to use his sophistication to his advantage and get this young girl to sleep with him. I think you mispronounced sophistication and manipulation. And so, but Ruth, like, stood by her values. First of all, they were her, like, she had always thought, you know, I will stay a virgin until I'm married. Plus, like, what contraception was available at this time?

Windex. Or no, it was Lysol. Lysol. I mean, obviously was Lysol. Lysol. I mean, obviously, I'm sure it didn't work. But back in the day, that was one of the things they thought was Lysol would work. Yes. Honestly, you shoot that up your vag, you're going to kill something. Probably yourself.

Yeah. Well, I don't know. I don't know. Don't try it at home, kids. I'm getting dangerously close to Trumpy with this. You know, oh, you got COVID. Just drink some bleach. Put a little bleach in your veins. Anyway, don't try it at home, kids. I'm getting dangerously close to Trumpy with this. You know, oh, you got COVID. Just drink some bleach. Put a little bleach in your veins.

Anyway, don't try that either. Anyway, so she knew that, like, contraception, whatever was available at this time, was not very reliable to begin with. And, like, to her, the worst thing that she could do at her stage in life was get pregnant out of wedlock. And so she was like, no, I will not sleep with you. Yeah. And so finally Albert was like, fucking fine. Let's get married then. And Ruth was like, great, let's get married. Yay. Let's go. Let's get married.

However, there is one little thing I'd like you to do for me, Albie. I'm just guessing. She called him Albie. I don't know that at all. And he's like, yeah, whatever you want. If it gets you in bed with me, I'll do it. And she was like, well, here's the thing about your last name, Schneider. Oh, uh-oh.

Sounds very German. Okay. So I was thinking maybe you could change it to something that sounded more American, like Snyder. And he's like, yeah, yeah, whatever, cool. Are you going to bang me? Yes. And so they became Albert and Ruth Snyder. Changing the last name was not something that was new to Ruth.

Her father had done it when his family had immigrated to the United States from Norway. They were Sorensen, and he changed his name to Brown to sound American. Yeah, my family did that, too. So my mom's side, I don't think they did a great job of it. They just like, so their last name is Shepert, and they just, like, dropped a letter. Yeah. Which. Well, and that's just Schneider to Snyder is not that different either.

And that's a different pronunciation. Shippert was pronounced exactly the same. It just dropped a C. Yeah. I'm sure that it will come as a shock to you, Kristen, but there were problems in the marriage from the beginning. Really? He seems like such a great guy because he apologized. Yeah. And then he wanted to bang her.

Uh-huh. Yeah. How sweet. Super great guy. Their age difference may have been part of the problem. And so Ruth was, like, young and fun and wanted to go out and do the Charleston or the Jitterbug or whatever the fuck was popular at the time. Yes, she was a teenager. Yes.

Yes, she was a teenager. And Albert just did not have the energy for those kind of things. He liked books and sailing. Yeah. And Ruth was like, well, that's fucking dull. Did he have a receding hairline? I do not know. Another bigger issue, if you ask me, was that there seemed to be three people in their marriage.

There was Albert. Okay. There was Ruth. Sure. And then there was Jesse Gishard. Who was Jesse Gishard? Who was Jesse Gishard? Who the fuck is Jesse Gishard, you ask? Yes.

Why, that's Albert's dead fiance. Oh, no. Some ten years earlier, Jesse and Albert had been just days away from their wedding when Jesse had died of pneumonia. Oh. And Albert held nothing back when it came to his feelings about Jesse. He made it clear that she was the love of his life and went so far as to demand that a picture of Jesse was hung prominently in their home at all times.

Okay. You know what? I thought about this some. You know, like, okay, I know we joke about Norman being dead. But if something were to happen to him. Yeah. And if I got remarried or got with someone new, I wouldn't want to get rid of all my pictures of him.

Yeah. Yeah. Is that a bad new, I wouldn't want to get rid of all my pictures of him. Yeah. Yeah. Is that a bad thing? I don't. Now, I wouldn't do the thing of like, I was married to the perfect man and here's how you raised compared to him. And that's really what the problem was. Your YouTube channel sucks.

Yes. His YouTube channel was way better. Yeah. He was like, oh, she could talk about the arts with me all day long. And all you want to do is go out to the clubs and do the jitterbug. Teens these days. What do you think of that? I mean, yes, I get it.

I absolutely get like having them preserving those memories, you know. But, yeah, constantly talking someone up and being like, well. Here's how you compare. Here yeah, constantly talking someone up and being like, well, here's how you compare. Here's Jessie. Beautiful Jessie. Love of my life, Jessie. And here's my wife, Ruth. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He also named his boat after her. Oh. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's, yeah, you're in the shadow of someone there. You got to move along. Yeah. Yeah, that's, yeah, you're in the shadow of someone there. You've got to move along. Yeah. Yeah. So Ruth did what she could to, like, deal with that. You know, she tried to at some point be respectful of his wishes. But sometimes jealousy got the better of her, and she took the portrait down. Mm-hmm. Okay.

And then they would have this huge fight, and Al would get really mad at her and yell at her and she'd put the picture back up. And that's how their marriage went for a while. Sounds fun. Yeah, super fun times. And then Ruth got great news. Or so she thought. She was pregnant! They were going to have a baby!

Is that what that means? Yes. Yes, it does. She was with child. What's another word for pregnant? Bun in the oven? Yeah, she had a bun in the oven. She was knocked up, as they

say. Okay, alright. Albert was not pleased. He they say. Okay. All right. Albert was not pleased. He did not want children. What did he do to prevent? Right. Yeah, so shut up. Well, that's not his fault. The woman is supposed to take care of that.

Aren't you Lysol-ing regularly? Summer's Eve Lysol. Ruth didn't understand like this was something that she had always wanted. She had always thought as a child she wanted like a really good life. She wanted more than she had growing up. She came from working class

and she wanted to have nice things but she didn't like aspire to have like this great career. She aspired to be a wife and mother. Like that's what she saw for herself and so this was a like a wonderful moment for her to find out that she was carrying a child and she had this husband and they had this nice home. But he was pissed. He didn't want a baby.

And then he was like, all right, fine, I can warm up to the idea of it as long as it's a son. Okay. And then she had a girl. So he was super fucking disappointed. This guy Albert's a real bag of dicks. Yeah, yeah. I hope nothing horrible happens to him.

I've never felt less sympathy for a daughter. I know, I know. Yeah, it's real tough. And so the baby, which they named Lorraine, well, really, Ruth named Lorraine. I'm pretty sure Albert was like, keep it away from me at all times. Really drove them further apart than they already were. Albert was annoyed when he was woken up in the morning by crying and he hated the smell of diapers. And he thought childbirth had ruined Ruth's figure.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Oh, my God. When do we get to the part where he dies? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So they moved around quite a bit. Finally, they settled in the, like, suburbs of Queens, Queens Village, which is, like, the suburbs outside of New York City, I guess.

I don't know. They had a nice little house, two and a half stories, apparently, which I don't know how that fucking works. Where do you get the half story? You think that's like a split level situation? Two and a half stories. It was described as a two and a half story house painted muted pink with green trim. Okay. I don't know. I don't know pink with green trim. Okay, I don't know.

I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, I don't either. Anyway, this was pretty good for Ruth. This is where she wanted to be. She could take care of her daughter. Her daughter had a yard to play in. Things were okay, you know. Yeah, they sound great.

Mm-hmm. things were okay you know yeah they sound great at some point ruth's mother josephine came to live in the snyder home and now ruth had a live-in babysitter for her daughter and so she could get a little more social because lord knows albert wasn't staying home with Lorraine. Well, in his defense, he didn't like the way that poop smelled in diapers. And Ruth loved it. So it only made sense that she would do all the work all the time. I get it. I get it. So she was able to have a bit of a social life finally.

She'd go out. She'd take the train into the city. I don't know that she took the train. I just added that just now. I assume that's how she got into the city. You're as bad as those tabloid folks. They would embellish the stories with details like she took a train once. And she'd have lunches.

And she'd go dancing in the evenings occasionally. have lunches and she'd go dancing in the evenings occasionally and she was having such a great time that her friends nicknamed her gay tommy which i don't understand at all gay tommy yeah all right it's funny because you know it's a compliment yeah all right yeah tommy tommy tommy that's the part i get the gay part yeah we totally get the gay Because you know it's a compliment. All right. Tommy? Tommy. Tommy. That's the part I get the gay part. Yeah, we totally get the gay. I don't get the Tommy.

Her name is Ruth. Is it kind of like the Margaret Peggy situation? I don't know. Anyway, gay Tommy one day is having lunch at a Swedish restaurant. A smorgasbord. Okay. There we go. That smorgasbord. Okay. There we go. That's actually from an article.

I didn't make that up myself. Okay. Okay. And she's having lunch with these friends. And their friend's friend walks in the restaurant and they wave him over. And they introduce him to gay Tommy, Ruth. And this guy, his name is Judd Gray. He's got glasses and a butt chin.

Oh, yeah. He's tall and slender. You know, some people like a butt chin. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that he was, you know, has a strong enough jaw for the butt chin. Oh. Yeah.

I think you got to have a strong jaw to balance the butt chin. You do. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I think he just looked kind of like a little. What, Brandy? Use your words. Remember, we're on a podcast.

A little nerdy. A little bit of a receding hairline situation. I don't know. And he was a corset salesman. Ooh, what a good way to meet the ladies. Yes, yes. Hi, everyone. This is James Harkin and Anna Tyshinsky from No Street Singers of Fish,

and we have a new podcast. It's called Quite a Good Sport. Whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between, we will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in paris this year we will be speaking to each other we are not going for gold in paris but we will be competing with each other at some of these sports giving it a go ourselves if you want to know what a rigger jigger is if you want to know what the size of a room means to your table tennis game or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls find out by listening to quite a good sport available wherever you get your podcasts.

Ruth, who by this time was 32 years old, was really worried about that figure of hers that Albert was no longer happy with. And so she was like, oh my gosh, I could use some corsets. Show me what you got, big boy. I don't think she said that. No, but you know, okay. So Judd himself had been born in New York and he kind of like bounced around the area for a while.

At 22, he had gotten married to his girlfriend since he was 16, this woman named Isabel. They had a daughter. And, you know, they seemed to have a pretty good life, but he was pretty willing to get into this affair with Ruth. And he wrote, I don't know, I don't know the circumstances surrounding this passage that he wrote about his wife, Isabel. Okay.

But it's fucking terrible, and this is what he wrote. Oh, God. Did he write this to Ruth? I don't think so. He did a lot of interviews and stuff while he was awaiting trial, and so I imagine this came about sometime during there.

Isabel, I suppose, one would call a homegirl, which I think means something different. I believe it means like a homebody or I'm guessing. I'm guessing. She had never trained for a career of any kind. She was learning to cook and was a careful and exceptionally exact housekeeper. As I think it over, searchingly, I'm not sure.

And we were married many years of her ambitions, hopes, her fears, or her ideals. You were with her for how long, sir? And you didn't know this? Yes, since I was 16. Yeah. That's on you, buddy. Yeah. He's trying to make that on her.

I know. We made our home, drove our car, played bridge with our friends, danced, raised our child, ostensibly together, married, but never could I seem to attain with her the comradeship, com, com, camaraderie, right? He says comradeship. Okay. Comradeship that formed the bond between my mother and myself. Oh. That took a turn.

Right? Right? I was not expecting that. Oh. Oh, my. She's a great gal, but she's no mom. She's not my mom. Oh, that is weird.

Okay. Uh-huh. So following this introduction at this Swedish restaurant, Ruth and Judd pretty quickly begin an affair. Mm-hmm. And Ruth seemed to pick up on the fact that Judd was a mama's boy pretty quickly and asked him to call her momsy. And he was thrilled to do so. I bet he was thrilled to do so. I bet he was. Some articles say that he called her mommy.

Some say momsy. Please stop. Some say mama. That's enough. It's all gross. No matter how you slice it. It's not for me. I'll say that.

You know what? No kink shaming here. It's just not for me. I'll say that. You know what? No kink shaming here. It's just not for me. I'll kink shame. It seemed that the two of them had, you know, the connections they were both lacking in their marriages. With each other. Okay. They banged constantly.

Usually they met at a hotel where they registered as Mr. and Mrs. Gray. Specifically the Waldorf Astoria. Whoa! Yeah. How? What? Yeah. With what money?

They met there so often that they had like a standing locker in the hotel lobby that they kept a small suitcase in that held bathrobes, brushes, cards, condoms, pajamas. Condoms. No Lysol. No Lysol. Condoms, Rose.

Condoms. Why don't you just get out of prison, lady? Everyone, that is a Golden Girls reference. Try to keep up. But no, for real, I mean, I guess he was just selling corsets constantly, right? I guess. I know. Yeah, who was funding this?

Okay, the people in my story were actually rich, and they stayed at like a really shitty motel. It was $23 a night. Oh my gosh, these people are banging at the Waldorf Astoria. When they didn't meet there, Judd would sneak in to Ruth's house during the day while Lorraine was at school. Like she'd sneak him in so her mother wouldn't see because her mother lived there. That is risky. Yes. Okay. Yeah. You know what the deal is. My people had a ton of anxiety. Your people didn't have enough anxiety. I agree. I agree. So it's hard to know exactly when discussions of murdering Albert began because everybody, the parties involved, tell different versions of the story.

that Ruth relayed to Judd that she had attempted on a couple of occasions to see if she could, you know, accidentally lead Albert to his death. Like, how? Like, you know, maybe she, like, closed the garage door on him when he was in there with his car running. Oh. Close the garage door on him when he was in there with his car running. Or there was the time that he was like under their Buick working on it and she whoopsie kicked out the jack stand that it was on. Oh, my God.

There was also a time where she like put something in his liquor, like some poison or something. But he thought it just tasted so bad. And he was like, oh, I need to find a new bootlegger. Wow. Yeah. It just so happened that around this time that Ruth was maybe contemplating killing Albert that she took out three different life insurance policies on him that sounds like a coincidence to me so i'll thank you to just calm down one was just for a thousand dollars the other was just for five thousand dollars and then there was a third one how much

it was valued at forty five thousand dollars plus it had a double indemnity clause which meant that if he died by accident, they paid out double. Are you going to adjust any of this for inflation? So that $90,000 adjusted for inflation? Yep. $1.3 million. Oh, man. Ruth, you got greedy.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, my. There's also like the little thing that Albert didn't know about that third really expensive policy. Uh-huh. So she had tricked him into signing the paperwork for it by saying it was all the paperwork for that $1,000 policy and that it just needed to be signed in triplicate. That's not bad. That's not bad.

I mean, that's pretty slick. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, that's pretty slick. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

And then she was just kind of like secretly paying the premiums on it without his knowledge. Mm-hmm. Did she have a job? She didn't, right? No, she stayed home. But he made a lot of money motorboating, so. And he wasn't paying attention to the cash, I guess. I guess not. All right.

So. to the cash, I guess. I guess not. So, that's kind of Judd's version of events that like Ruth brought it up to him and had already been like working our way. Right, right. And Judd was just like, he just entered the party

halfway through. Do you need a hand? Maybe I could help you. What they do agree upon in both versions that they tell is that at one point, Judd went to Kingston, New York, and bought chloroform, a sash weight, which I had to look up because I've never heard of. No. It's like a little lead weight that they tied on like the window curtains.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. I've seen those. Yeah. Yeah. So excited. My old house knowledge is really coming in here. And a picture wire.

And so he, Ruth, at that original restaurant where they had met for the very first time. And he handed her a package and said, I'm in an awful hurry, Mommy. Ew. Oh, no. I have to catch the 125 train. Take this package home and open it there. And so Ruth did what she was told.

She went home and she opened the package, and she saw that it contained a gift for her and some supplies. The gift for her was a flesh reducer. This was apparently something that Ruth had mentioned she wanted. It was like this rolling pin that you, like, rubbed on your body. You're supposed to mellow away your excess fat. I love this. It just shows this bullshit has been around forever.

Around forever. And then she saw that there was the sash weight and some powder and a note from Judd. And the note said that she should put the powder in Albert's drink, that it would make him groggy, and then Judd could come in and kill him with the weight. He wrote this down? But Ruth was horrified. She immediately poured the powders down the sink and she was going to give the weight back to

Judd and end the affair. But she was going to keep that fat trimmer, what was it? Yeah, the flesh reducer. Flesh reducer. Everyone, Brandy's using it right now. So yeah, she was like, absolutely not. I was going to give him all those things back and that was just going to be the end of it.

That's what she told the police. The real story, as I believe it, was that Ruth and Judd from there concocted what they believed to be the perfect plan to murder Albert. Spoiler alert, it wasn't perfect and they were caught almost immediately. Yeah. Anytime we tell a story, it's because it's not the perfect crime. It went a little something like this. It was March 19th, 1927. Earlier you said it was 1920.

It probably was. Albert and Ruth were out at a party with Lorraine and Josephine was off somewhere. So no one was home at the Snyder home. And Judd let himself in a side door that just happened to be left unlocked. Around 2 a.m., the Snyders returned home. Albert was drunk from a night of heavy drinking, but he had managed to drive the family home. No concerns there. Good. Just, you know.

Drunk driving wasn't a thing until the 80s. It's fine. One article said, like, he managed to safely drive them home. I was like, I think you misspelled safely. You're misusing that word there. Anyway, they get home. Albert immediately collapses into bed. He's, you know, he's going to sleep it off. Ruth puts Lorraine to bed

and then she tiptoes down the hall to the spare bedroom. And there's Judd, just where she expected him to be. At this point, some articles said that they had sex. And then they put their plan in action to kill Albert. So they leave the spare bedroom, head into the master bedroom, and Judd thumps Albert on the head with that weight he'd brought with him.

Only, like, that wasn't enough to kill him. It was like a little lead weight. Okay. And so from there, Albert starts to stir a little bit, and so he has chloroform, and they put that over his mouth, and that subdues him enough, and then they take that picture wireform and they put that over his mouth and that subdues him enough and then they take that picture wire and they tie it around his neck and they strangle him to death

once albert was dead they hid ruth's jewelry box to make it look like there'd been a robbery and then where'd they hide the jewelry box? Under the mattress. Oh, my God. Okay. Uh-huh. You couldn't have just, like, given it to Judd, who was actually leaving the fucking house.

Right. No, just tuck that... And under the mattress. Okay. Perfect hiding spot. And then Judd tied up Ruth and gagged her and left. Ruth laid like in the hall for a couple of hours, tied up and let Judd get a head start like skipping town. And then when she figured enough time had gone by and it started to get light outside, she started banging on the wall and calling for Lorraine.

So Lorraine, their nine-year-old daughter, comes out. Oh, God. And finds Ruth tied and gagged on the floor. And she pulls her gag out. And Ruth's like, someone broke in. They attacked me and killed your father. Go get help from the neighbors. And someone broke in.

They attacked me and killed your father. Go get help from the neighbors. And so Lorraine puts on her little bathrobe and she runs out to the neighbor's house. And they come back with this guy, Louis Molhauser, who lives next door. And he unties Ruth. And she tells him the same story. We got home and there was somebody in the house. We interrupted a burglary.

It looked like these two Italian men. They had mustaches and they were quite tall. They were in overalls. And they said, I'm a Luigi. Plumbers, I tell you. Yeah. And so this neighbor's like, oh my gosh, he looks in the master bedroom and there's Albert's body. So he calls the police. Wait, what happened to Josephine? Josephine's like out of town. Oh, right, right. Okay. Yeah, yeah. And so the police come and she tells them that she, you know, they'd been at home. They'd gone to bed and she heard a noise in the hall. And so she'd come out and there were the two tall men with the mustaches who looked Italian.

And they'd hit her over the head and then grabbed her around the neck and tied her up. And she didn't remember anything else. When she'd come to, she'd woken up Lorraine and gotten help and they'd found Albert dead. And the house did look a mess. It was like just very chaotic scene. The cushions had been tossed. According to one article, hither and yon. Oh my.

Hither and yon. Hither and yon. Mm my. Hither and yon. Hither and yon. The drawers had been pulled out. Curtains had been torn down. And police were like, yeah, this doesn't look like a fucking burglary. I've never seen a burglary that looks like this before. Yeah, why would you tear down curtains?

Uh-huh. And then they were like looking at Ruth. And, you know, she said she'd been bashed over the head, but she didn't have like a bump or anything. Uh-huh. And those. She'd been real lovingly tied up. Yeah, those ropes had been tied real loose on her arms. Yeah. Uh-huh.

And so they do a little search and they're like, and she told they're like, and she told them it looked like two Italian men. And wouldn't you know it? There was a little scrap of an Italian newspaper in the bed next to Albert's dead body. So obviously she was telling the truth. They had left a tiny scrap of newspaper behind. They had left a tiny scrap of newspaper behind. You know, as Norman Caruso's wife, I've got to say, the thing about Italians is they're just, their pockets are brimming with torn up newspapers. Everywhere the man goes, he leaves behind little pieces of torn up Italian newspapers.

It's a pain in the ass, I tell you. When he's not ripping down curtains, he's leaving. He's throwing couch cushions in her and yawn. When the in-laws stay, it's a real mess. And so they're questioning Ruth, you know, take us through the events. And she's like, oh, oh, my jewelry. My jewelry is missing. They've taken my jewelry. And so, you know, they're making a list of all the things that she's telling them.

And then, like, one of the cops upstairs is like, hey, we found her jewelry box. It's under the mattress. Yeah, I mean, come on. Took about eight seconds to find it. Yeah. And so finally. I bet her jewelry was like cheap and ugly anyway. I'm sure it was.

It's like you couldn't have just said goodbye to all that. So they like question her well into the night. She's exhausted. And finally they're like, okay, when are you going to tell us the real story here? And she's like, what do you mean? And they're like, well, this is a fake burglary. Yeah. And she goes,

how can you tell? And the detective says, it don't look right. We see a lot of burglaries. They aren't done this way. And so at another point, they found a pin on the floor, like a lapel pin or like a tie pin of some kind with the letters JG on it. You're kidding me and so they went to her little her little address book and look under the g's and they find someone whose first name starts with a j and so they go up to her and they say ruth tell us about judd gray oh my. And she had to have pissed her petticoats.

She goes, has he confessed? Oh, no. Oh, Ruth, you idiot. Yep. Okay. Yep. This can't possibly be true. This is so stupid.

Yeah, that's exactly what happened. Yeah. And so they're like, yeah, uh-huh. He totally confessed. He's singing like a canary. He says it's all your fault. What are you saying, Ruth? They haven't found Judd Gray by this point.

He's not been arrested. They haven't even spoken to him. But they're like, yeah, of course. He's not been arrested. Like, they haven't even spoken to him. But they're like, yeah, of course. He's telling us the whole story. And he's saying it was all your idea. And so she immediately confesses that she helped him kill Albert. But that it was all his idea, not hers. And then they track down Judd.

He's at some hotel in Syracuse. He had actually worked really hard to set up this alibi. He'd, like, mailed some letters, had a friend mail some letters from Syracuse so he could be like, I've been in Syracuse for two days. Also, look, he also gave his friend, like, his hotel room key at this hotel in Syracuse and asked him to go in and, like, must the bed up so it looked like he'd slept there. Throw the covers around, hither and yon. That's right. And the detectives were like, yeah, we've read those dime store crime novels. We know

this trick. And so he's arrested and so is Ruth and they are both charged with the murder of Albert Snyder. Here's something. A little footnote, if you will. Okay.

The JG pin had not belonged to Judd Gray. You're kidding me. It was Albert's and it stood for Jesse Gishard. Oh, my God. Yeah. So it was just a weird coincidence? Yes. That is nuts.

Or was it Jesse protecting Albert from beyond the grave? I like that. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yep. Isn't that nuts? That is wild.

Yeah. That is totally wild. Yep. Isn't that nuts? That is wild. Yeah, that is totally wild. Yeah. So this happened like on a Sunday. By Tuesday, the front pages of all of those New York tabloids had pictures of Judd Gray and Ruth Snyder and printed their confessions in like their full text of both of their confessions which in them they both were like yeah I did it but it was cause Ruth made me yeah I did it but it was cause Judd made me and he threatened to go to Albert if I didn't kill him and oh Ruth said she was gonna go tell my wife if I didn't help her kill

Albert if it bleeds it leads what is that it's a journalism saying if it bleeds, it leads. What is that? It's a journalism saying. If it bleeds, it leads. What? I thought that to mean something very different. What did you take it to mean?

I thought that was a comment on menstruation. And like the woman got him to do her bidding. Oh, gross. That's terrible. Yeah. Oh, that's really terrible. Yeah. No, I'm just talking about how crime stories are usually front page above the fold, if you will.

Anyway, go on. Ruth, as this femme fatale, and Judd as this poor, unsuspecting man who she had gotten to do her bidding. They called her a synthetic blonde murderess. Oh. A vampire wife. No. And Ruthless Ruth, the Viking ice matron of Queens Village. Okay, that's too many words. I like Ruthless Ruth.

I mean, I get what you're saying there, but that's too much. Too much. And Judd Gray loved every minute of this. He did all kinds of interviews with the tabloids and really fed into this story that he'd been under her spell. into this story that he'd been under her spell one article with the daily news he said she would place her face an inch from mine and look deeply into my eyes until i was hers completely okay while she hypnotized my mind with her eyes, she would gain control over my body by slapping my cheeks with the palms of her hand. Okay. So no one can get mad at him.

No. Because he was completely under her spell. Hypnotized to do her bidding. So obviously, as I've already told you, this became a huge media sensation. This generated huge public interest. When this finally went to trial in April of 1927, I said finally, like it's, you know, it happens. Yeah. Boom.

Like right after it. Fifteen hundred people showed up. Shut up. To the courtroom every day. 1,500 people showed up to the courtroom every day. Oh my God. And then another 2,000 people stood in the streets

outside. Of course, they bought souvenirs. You want to know what they were? The pins? Did they have lapel pins? They had lapel pins

in the shape of sash weights. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Yep. So the trial began on April 27th, 1927, and ran until May 9th, 1927.

Judge Townsend Scudder oversaw the proceedings. Okay. Okay. Townsend Scudder oversaw the proceedings. Okay. Okay. At the trial, there were three different narratives of the murder of Albert Snyder presented. One was the position of the prosecution. These two people, Judd and Ruth, co-conspired to kill Albert.

They were in on it together, each as guilty as the next. Right. And then there was Ruth's version where she was driven into the arms of Judd by this horrible husband of hers. She just wanted love and didn't get it from him. And so she'd been driven to this affair. And then when she was going to end the affair, Judd threatened to tell Albert about it. And she was forced to kill him against her will. And then there was Judd's version where he was hypnotized and had no control over what he was doing. So sad.

Which version do you think is the truth? Yeah, the prosecution's version. I do too. Yeah, I think the prosecution's version is the truth. So Judd testified. Ruth testified. I read in one article that Ruth wanted to like, I don't,

I don't know, explain more about the affair or explain more about her marriage and how it was really troubled and how whatever. And her defense attorney wouldn't allow it. He said it wasn't a good look for a woman to talk about things like that. And so. Really? Yeah.

I feel like that's her only play. I agree. I agree. And so they really just kind of glossed over it. And so they really just kind of glossed over it. During the entire trial, the tabloids were just tearing her apart and really lifting Judd up. Sexist tabloids. That is wild.

It's weird. That's changed. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. As the case was given to the jury. Witch stars have more cellulite. Yeah, exactly. As the case was given to the jury, Judge Townsend Scudder, which might be my new favorite name we've ever had on this podcast. You've got to have another baby.

So I can name it Townsend Scudder. Yep. He told the jury that it was their job to decide among the conflicting stories of the confessors to decide who had done what and what to believe. confessors to decide who had done what and what to believe. The jury deliberated for one hour and 40 minutes. And they believed Judd Gray's version. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm.

Fucking. However, they did not spare him. They still believed that he was guilty of. Well, yes, but was it really all his fault? And so they were both found guilty and they were sentenced to death in the electric chair at Sing Sing Prison. Oh, wow. Yeah. They really didn't spare him, did they? No, they did not.

But they made it clear that his was the version of events that they most believed. Okay. Ruth filed some appeals. One was that she needed to not be executed because she was crucial to the civil suit that was going on involving the insurance company, those insurance policies. That's an interesting argument. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And so their argument was that she needed at least a stay of execution so that she could be alive long enough to argue those cases in civil court because it impacted Lorraine.

The insurance companies had paid out the smallest policy but were denying payment on the $5,000 and $45,000 policies, saying that they had been fraudulent. Well, yeah. Yeah. And she got convicted, so they're not going to give her a stay of execution. No. And they did not. No. Judd Gray filed writ of habeas corpus on the grounds that his constitutional rights had been violated because he'd been given a joint trial rather than his own trial, but his appeal was also denied. This, the attention this case had been given by these tabloids turned this from like a small town murder into this like huge sensational crime. And that continued once people learned that there would be an execution in this.

A woman would be executed, the first woman in 30 years. And every newspaper wanted to cover the execution. But the warden and the guards at Sing Sing were like, this won't become a media sensation. Like, yes, the press can be here, but there will be no cameras allowed. And they went to really extreme protocol to make sure that that didn't happen, that this didn't become a big media sensation. And that no one would get in with a camera. But people wanted to see it.

Enter Tom Howard. The guards had no idea what he had up his sleeve. A camera. Or his pant leg, to be exact. So the editors of the New York Daily News were like, okay, the guards at Sing Sing know our reporters. Yeah. And so they're like, we got to bring in somebody else. We got to bring in a stranger.

And so they brought in Tom Howard, a photographer from the Chicago Tribune, which was like the parent, owned by the same parent company. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That owned the Daily News. And asked him to come and cover the execution.

And he agreed. And so on January 12th, 1928, he went to the execution. And just as the switch was flipped on the electric chair that Ruth was strapped to, Tom Howard lifted his pant leg. And there, attached to his ankle, was a miniature camera. And as the electricity surged through Ruth's body, he pointed his toe toward her and pressed the shutter release he'd wired to his pocket. No. And he snapped a blurry picture of Ruth Brown Snyder at the moment of her death. of her death.

The next day, the Daily News ran that photo on the front page of the paper with the headline dead. Oh my God. And it sold out

in 15 minutes. Of course it did. Mm-hmm. This photo was instantly hailed as the most famous tabloid photo of the decade. I would argue probably longer than that. Yeah.

And the photo itself, it's available on the internet. It is shocking. It is, oh, it's blurry, but you can clearly see, oh, I didn't mean it like that. I'm sorry. It's blurry, but you can clearly see. Oh, I didn't mean it like that. I'm sorry. It's blurry, but you can clearly see Ruth Snyder strapped into the electric chair with her face covered in a mask holding on to the arms.

Yeah. Look it up. It's okay. Tom Howard was given a hundred dollar bonus for his photo. Is that all? Mm hmm. Oh, yikes. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. So Judd Gray was actually put to death in the same electric chair six minutes after Ruth and

no picture was taken of his execution. There was a couple of civil cases that worked their way through court. There was the life insurance stuff, but it, like, just as you predicted, it was never paid out. And then there was a custody thing that went on with Lorraine. Ultimately, Ruth's mother, Josephine Brown, got custody of her because she had lived in the home. She had the strongest argument for already having a relationship with Lorraine. Ruth would not let her daughter visit her in prison. She didn't want her to see her that way. She wrote a letter to Lorraine just before her execution and asked someone to deliver it to her and ask her not to read it until she was of an age that she would understand it.

No way to know if she ever read it. This case, as I mentioned, inspired lots of books and movies and television shows. Most famously, it inspired the novella Double Indemnity by James N. Cain, which was later adapted to a movie under the same name, which, of course, everyone knows was the first true example of film noir. And we all know exactly what film noir is, and we don't need to go into it at all. Because we're super artsy film people. And discuss it over a glass of Pinot Noir. Okay. What?

No, no, no. Okay. What? More importantly to me and to you, Kristen, is that this case was the inspiration of a play written in 1928. A play that was put on by the UMKC Repertory Theater in 2000. No, no. It's not what you think it is. A play which you and I saw with your parents at the Rep in the year 2000. Do you remember this play?

It was called Mackinac. And I remember my mind being blown by it. I have no memory of this. Okay. Let me read you the description of the play according to Wikipedia. Mackinac is a 1928 play by the American playwright and journalist Sophie Treadwell, inspired by

the real-life case of convicted and executed murderer Ruth Snyder. A young woman works as a low-level stenographer and lives with her mother. She follows the rituals that society expects of women, however resistant she may feel about them. She subsequently marries her boss, whom she finds repulsive, and after having a baby with him, she has an affair with a younger man who fuels her lust for life.

Driven to murder her husband, she is convicted of the crime and is executed in the electric chair. I remember this play so clearly. And I remember we were driving home from it and we were having a conversation. Hold on. Okay. Hold on. Is this the one where you, me, and my mom loved it,

my dad fell asleep during it, and then we were all discussing it afterwards? Yes! And he was arguing with us? Yes! And we were like, you can't argue with us! You are asleep! Yes! Yes! I do remember this! was arguing with us and we were like, you can't argue with us. You were asleep. Yes.

I do remember that. I was so bad. Cause he was telling us that we were wrong. You were asleep. Anyway, I was like researching, I was reading this case and I was like researching. I was reading this case and I was like, this sounds so familiar. I even was like, have we fucking covered this before? Why do I know this case? Like, why is this familiar to me? And then I got like the like in in pop culture in the media section. And I was like, that's fucking why.

OK, that is so funny, because this whole time I was like, Brandy's lying to me. This is a play. I thought it was Chicago for sure. I thought it was like the Roxy Hart story. Oh, my gosh. That was great. I loved it. Oh, my gosh.

I can still. Weren't we like in the front row or something? Yes. Yes. We had amazing seats. And I only got to go because Kyla was supposed to go, but then Laura Liston had a party that night and she

wanted to go to the party. And so I got to go to the play in her place. Hope it was worth it, Kyla. Well, I'm glad you were able to come along. And I'm glad my dad got a nap that day. You know, the other day we were talking on the phone, my dad was like, hey, someone on Facebook said that you were talking about me on the podcast. And this was, keep in mind, this was just after we just recorded.

And I was like, Dad, I'm sure that's true. But we talked for like two and a half hours on these episodes. I'm sure you came up in a negative light. Also, DP says hi to everybody. Oh, my gosh. That was great. I really do feel like you did a case for me this week and I did a case for you. Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

Yeah. Every now and then we give each other little gifts. Little gifts. Little gifts. Little gifts. Little gifts. Like learning about masturbation. That was the funniest. But hold on. What? You can control your orgasms. I can tell you one thing right now.

I wouldn't be sitting here with you two. That's for sure. You know what's almost as good as an orgasm? Oh, God. Hi, everyone. This is James Harkin and Anna Tyshinsky from No Street Singers of Fish, and we have a new podcast. It's called Quite a Good Sport.

Whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between, we will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to each other. We are not going for gold in Paris this year. We will be speaking to each other. We are not going for gold in Paris, but we will be competing with each other at some of these sports, giving it a go ourselves.

If you want to know what a rigger jigger is, if you want to know what the size of a room means to your table tennis game, or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls, find out by listening to Quite a Good Sport, available wherever you get your podcasts. Woo! You know what I've got a hankering to do? Take some questions from my Discord?

That's right. That's right. Oh, no. What? Well, you ever rent a library book and you're... You didn't finish it in time? I didn't finish it in time. It just auto-returned on you. Yeah.

Yeah, that does suck. The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. If anyone's looking for, like, a great start to a book, that's a great one. I'm real sad now. Took it away, took it away, took it away now. Alright, anyway. That was super lame.

That was devastating. Anyway, so so here's the deal i'm super pissed now we're taking questions from the discord we're real grateful people are in there yes thank you to all our supporters well bevin wants to know are birds real i don't know what's it's a bird. I've never heard of that. Oh my God. Betty, please cut that. Did I shame you? I hated it. Oh my, slow clap for Dick. Brandy, have you ever met an Olympian? You would know if I had met an Olympian because first of all, I would never stop talking about it. And second of all, I'd probably just be dead because my life had peaked when I met an Olympian. Did you know my story? You've met an Olympian. Okay.

Did not talk to him. Who's that one swimmer who's a douchebag? Ryan Lochte. That's right. Yeah. He was at the Summit Grill in Lee's Summit, Missouri, one time for some charity dinner. And, you know, everybody had to pay like a ton of money to like come eat dinner with Ryan Lochte. Lochte.

Lochte. Yeah. OK. Ryan Lochte. Here's the truth. All I knew was Norman and I got seated in a booth and you could see into this room. And I was like, man, that guy's really hot. I didn't know who he was, though, until later. Anyway. Yeah, that's my story. You jealous?

No. You seem a little jealous. Nina Evy wants to know, how do you guys handle negative comments? We die inside a little bit every time. No. Oh, gosh. It's real tough. Yeah.

We're learning to deal with it. It's not great. I have a theory you can't ever get good at. Yeah, I agree because we actually so we talked about this. My sister, Casey, had us listen to the You're Wrong About episode where they talk about cancel culture. And on the beginning of that, which that podcast is much larger than ours. It's a really good podcast. It's a great podcast and it's much, much larger than ours.

And they talk about how the negative comments affect them. And so it made us feel a little bit better to be like, OK, that's just like a normal human response. I think also they talked about being afraid of saying the wrong thing, which I think is totally relatable because, you know, we talk on these podcasts for like two and a half hours. Yeah. Once a week. And truly, I wasn't kidding when I said now, just now that my dad was like, hey, I heard you talked about me. And I had no idea.

I still had no idea what was said. I don't doubt it, but I have no idea what was said. So yeah, I think you try to keep up some boundaries. Yeah, absolutely. I don't have Twitter on my phone. I don't have Facebook on my phone. And I don't read reviews anymore. So there we go.

There we go. What do you do to block that stuff? I'm terrible at it. And I let it affect my mood horribly. And I feel bad about myself. And yeah, it's really, it's super healthy. Well, it sounds like you don't need to work on that at all. Yeah, not at all.

It is something I am working on. Okay. Just for the record. Yeah, I'd like to think I'm getting better about it. Yeah, I'm getting much better. I actually had somebody just recently leave a review that was horrible about me, specifically about me. And I was surprised how little it affected me because in the past those have affected me a lot. But I was like, I'm not fucking for that person.

That's fine. You know, sometimes you shouldn't put the word fucking in the sentence. Oh, my gosh, Bidace for Brandy says, I just want y'all to know I'm out in San Diego for my honeymoon, and my dumb ass thought I saw you two on the plane from Charlotte to San Diego. Oh my gosh, we should be so lucky. I wish it was us, yeah. I hope that off-brand Kristen and Brandy were like really cool to you. You're probably way hotter than us.

We're probably the off-brand Kristen and Brandy were like, really cool. They're probably way hotter than us. We're probably the off-ramp Kristen and Brandy. I hope she went up to them and was like, OMG, hey, how are you guys? And they're like, hmm. Now she's just a story for them for the rest of their lives. Nat Likes Cat says, this isn't a question, but just throwing it out there. Any Kurtz out there should make their screen name. Let's go to Kurt. I couldn't agree more.

No. Bluey Taught Me says, Kristen, can you please keep Brandy from singing Christmas Shoes again? I wish I could. No. I cannot be held back. I tried to stop her. Sir, I want to buy these shoes. How dare you? For my mama, please.

Oh, my God. It's Christmas season. This is the end. The shoes are just her size. This, Justin, Christmas shoes is politically incorrect. And you will be canceled. And I will lead the cancellation. There's not much time.

Oh, my God. She's been sick for quite a while. And I know these shoes will make her smile and I want her to look beautiful if mama meets Jesus tonight. It was flippy floppies. That's what they got

for the Christmas shoes. Do you have a shoe in mind that you picture for that song? I actually do and I don't know why. Is it like, here's what's in my head. Kind of like an 80s shoe. It's kind of like pale pink.

I wouldn't quite call it a pump because it's got a chunky. It's a real modest heel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Except it's white in my head. That's exactly. Kind of a point, like a rounded point toe. We are thinking of the same shoe. I promise you we're thinking of the exact same shoe. Okay, this is an interesting question.

Okay, DeVry Law School wants wants to know what's your opinion on shower beers it's when you drink an ice cold beer while you shower it's not some weird sex thing i swear okay i actually used to have a co-worker who said that her husband loved to have a shower beer after he got home from work and i thought it was the weirdest fucking thing I've ever heard of. I didn't know this was a thing that people did. I had a college roommate who loved to shower beer. It was, you know, when we were going to be going out. Yeah. And while she was taking a shower, like a pregame. Yeah, we would pregame. Personally, first of all, I don't like beer. So that's it. And I've. what about a shower heard seltzer no because i really feel like you know i can wait yeah that's how i feel i've never done it i don't feel the need to

do it but maybe we're missing out maybe we should do it what if i got bath water in there that is a concern i am okay i will say that aside from peeing in the shower, I am not a shower multitasker. I don't brush my teeth in the shower. I don't do like face masks in the shower. I wash my hair and my body and shave in the shower. And that's pretty much it. And occasionally pee. Wow.

Well, that's quite a story you got there. Are you a shower multitasker? Yeah. Do you brush your teeth in the shower? No, what I do is a crossword. No, I'm just like you. Yeah, it's just a shower. Yeah, it's just a shower.

But, you know, okay, we've talked about Laura, our friend Laura growing up. She was always very cool. She did the brushing teeth in the shower. She always talked about how it was like such a time saver, so great. So I did it for a while. But then it was like, I'm only doing this because Laura's cooler than me. And then, you know, then I just stopped.

Stopped brushing my teeth, of course. CocoNuts wants to know, do you prefer amusement park rides or water park rides? Okay. This is not really an answer to the question, but I just recently have decided that I can never go on either of those ever again, because in the same week, there was an accident

at Adventureland Amusement Park in Iowa, where I've been multiple times in my life. It's on the way to my grandparents' house in Iowa. They're on a ride that I've ridden multiple times where a kid died and then another kid was on life support. I haven't seen an update. He may have died as well. What happened? It's like the Raging Rapids ride where they're on the big inner tube. So somehow the tube flipped over and they

got trapped under it or something. Oh no. Yeah. Okay. So never can do that. And then in the same week, a 47-year-old woman was riding a wooden roller coaster somewhere in Ohio. Oh, yeah. I can't remember now. Okay. The force of the fucking roller coaster ripped her artery and she bled to death internally on the roller coaster.

Oh, God. Yeah. The roller coaster, like, rolls in at the end and they let everybody off the ride and she's just dead oh my god oh that's terrible the medical examiner said it was just like a freak accident like there was nothing wrong with the ride like oh my god it was enough to tear her artery oh okay okay that's enough thank Thank you. So neither is my answer. I will go on no rides ever again. Did you hear my stomach? I did.

Yeah, I can't do water parks, but only because I think they're gross. I think they're like 50% pee. At least. I think that's a low wager. That's wishful thinking. All right. Stone Cold Cutie Pie wants to know where is Norm? JK, real question.

What have you been binging on Netflix or Hulu? Have you watched the Fear Street Trio, Brandy? Okay, I am 2.6% of the... What? I've watched two and a half of them. Okay.

I got caught up with my fractions there. You sure did. We've watched the first two and we're halfway through the third one and I have loved them. Okay. I got caught up with my fractions there. You sure did. We've watched the first two and we're halfway through the third one and I have loved them. So this is a horror movie trilogy on the Netflix, Kristen. Nope.

Based on the R.L. Stine books, Fear Street. But these are, they are movies that were made off of books that were for young adults, but they are made into adult movies. Like these are adult horror movies. Oh, good. So they're even scarier.

They're very good. It sounds terrible. I love it. I've already told you that I'm continuing to watch Survivor. I'm binging old seasons and I'm now on a season where they divided the tribes by race. I cannot believe that exists. I cannot believe that exists. And I just, like, want to know how that gets past the brainstorming stage and how, like, someone presents that in a brainstorming meeting and everybody's, like, looks at someone like they have a third head or something.

Like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I told you the silver lining is it led to, like, the most diverse cast ever. But, yeah, you don't really want to root for the white team. Am I right? Anyway. Chigantindi says, in an old episode, you talked about a dance craze that tore through your middle school called the Bulldog.

What Patreon goal do we have to reach to get a demonstration of that dance move? Brandy, what would it take? Oh, never. I'll never do that. That'd be horrifying. Never? I don't think so. 20,000 patrons. Sure. We reach 20,000 patrons. I'll do the bulldog. Everybody, that's a big

joke. It's kind of a degrading dance. Although I've seen you do it many a time. Should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? Yeah. Are you balls deep in the discord? No, my balls are free. To get inducted in the Supreme Court, you join our Patreon at the $7 level. This week, we are continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. And we thank you for joining our Patreon at the $7 level. This week we are continuing to read your names and favorite cookies,

and we thank you for joining our Patreon. I think we really need to make things more formal around here. That's what that was about. Exactly. Ambar. Crispy chocolate chip cookies. Carrie Copey. Peanut butter blossoms with really melty chocolate kiss.

Okay, sounds good. That sounds real good. Jennifer Fox. Shane Muggin. Oh, I've not had the pleasure. Okay. What's a chipwich? You know, it's the, okay, it's the really good, you get the two cookies, you smush them with the ice cream in them.

But it's like good, it's not like shitty. You've had the shitty ice cream sandwiches, it's not that. Okay. Jesse Baird. Peanut butter chocolate chip cookie. Joy Baisley. Smarties cookies. Okay, I know it's not the American Smarties, but that's my picture every time we read that.

I know, your American brain goes, no! That sounds terrible. Danielle. Red Velvet Cookies. Rachel Rose. Peanut Butter Banana Oat Cookies. That might be alright. I'd be willing to give it a go. Alright. Jojo Alred.

Christmas Spritz Cookies. What the hell is a Christmas Spritz? I don't know. Alright. Jodi English. Triple Chocolate Chip Cookies. Lisaodi English. Triple chocolate chip cookies. Lisa Serrato. Macadamia nut. Allison Bob Moss Crawford. Double chocolate chip.

Megan LeCron. No, baked cookies. Yeah, that's how that's going to be. That's how she meant it. Della Brown. Double chocolate chip cookies. Not as ballsy as that triple how she meant it. Della Brown. Double chocolate chip cookies. Not as ballsy as that triple chocolate chip up there, huh? Mm-hmm.

All right. Doesn't have the macadamia nuts for that. Mimi Mattis. Funfetti Cool Whip Cookies. What the hell is that? What is that? That sounds delicious. Jessica Linza.

Not Cookies. I don't know what that is either. She's not saying not cookies. She's. Not cookies. I don't know what that is either. So it's... She's not saying not cookies. She's saying not cookies. Everybody flunked. They don't get it. We got to move on.

Melissa Roker. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Kristen San Roman. Any of my grandma's cookies. Kylie Woods. Chocolate chip. Katie Roby. Chocolate chip.

Alicia Marshall. My famous peanut butter chocolate chip. And Roby. Chocolate chip. Alicia Marshall. My famous peanut butter chocolate chip and Kit Kat cookies. Okay, this is kind of like that lady and her famous lasagna. Are you really famous for it? I don't think they're famous. I never heard of your cookies, Alicia Marshall. But that does sound delicious. Peanut butter chocolate chip and Kit Kat.

I mean, okay, let's, let's. All right, you can send them in. You can send them in. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And if you like what you're hearing, head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And tell us we're real good. And then be sure to join us next week. Tell us that we are like

transcendent sex. We're the fireworks in your life. We've French-kissed people before. And we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Sorry, I got lost in the magic. Podcast adjourned!

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from Jim Atkinson and John Bloom's co-written two-part article titled Love and Death in the Silicon Prairie for Texas Monthly, as well as Jeffrey Weiss's reporting in the Dallas Morning News, Sonia Duggan's article for In and Around magazine, and reporting in newspapers.com.

I got my info from an article for the Crime Library by Denise Snow, history.com, encyclopedia.com, an article for All That's Interesting by Katie Serena, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff hi everyone this is james harkin and anna tschinsky from no street singers of fish and we have a new podcast it's called quite a good sport whether or not you love or hate sports or you're somewhere in between we will be speaking to athletes who are going for gold in paris this year we will be speaking to each other we are not going for gold in paris

but we will be competing with each other at some of these sports giving it a go ourselves if you want to know what a rigger jigger is if you want to know what the size of a room means to your table tennis game or if you want to know which of us is best at climbing walls, find out by listening to Quite a Good Sport, available wherever you get your podcasts.