Let's Go To Court! - 181: Sh*tbags!

Episode Date: August 4, 2021

This episode nearly killed us. ….Or was it the Oreos, Pringles and alcohol that nearly killed us?  When we sat down to record this episode a *second time,* we about lost our minds at the thought of talking about these two shit bags again. But ya girls persevered, technology issues and tummy troubles be damned!  Brandi started us off with the story of Jacque Waller. Jacque worked her ass off. As a mom of triplets, she also juggled a demanding career. But her husband, Clay Waller, didn’t pull his weight. He couldn’t hold a steady job, and he rarely lifted a finger with the kids. If that imbalance wasn’t bad enough, Clay then became abusive. When Jacque told him she’d had enough, he threatened her life.  Then Kristin tells us about Donnah Winger, who was coming home from a trip to Florida with her infant daughter, Bailey. Donnah’s parents had arranged for Donnah and Bailey to be picked up from the airport and driven the two hours back to their home. It seemed like a perfect plan, but as soon as the driver started talking, Donnah knew she was in for a rough time. The man said he had a demon in his head. Then he invited Donnah to an orgy. She was deeply disturbed. When she got home, she told her husband Mark Winger about the driver, and he insisted that she file a complaint.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: An episode of 20/20 titled, “The Perfect Lie” “Jailed killer plotted to kill 5 more,” by Wanda DeMarzo for the Miami Herald “Man accused of staging 2 killings,” the Associated Press “Man gets life sentence in slaying of wife, shuttle bus driver,” the Associated Press for the St Louis Post-Dispatch “Tale of grisly double murder will be retold,” by Wanda DeMarzo for The Miami Herald “Mark Winger,” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Devil’s Island: The Missouri Murder of Jacque Waller” episode Crime Watch Daily “Jacque Waller” chillingcrimes.com “Jacque’s sister asks Clay Waller: Does she haunt you?” by Heartland News, KFVS12 News “United States v. Waller” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 20+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a bad driver and i'll be talking about a total shit bag hello hi folks so we've we're here today

tell you about something horrible that's happened first of all r Ron Popeil died. Second of all, so have our souls. Let's all tear into a rotisserie chicken in his honor. And also, you should know. Talk about the horrible thing that happened here today. You tell it. Well, it goes like this. We've already recorded this episode once today. And there's some kind of technical difficulty and

my track stopped recording after 30 minutes this is all brandy's fault our equipment was so tired of my shit just got up and left so we found out what had happened. We were really sad. So we ordered a ton of food. A ton of junk food. We ordered Oreos, Chips Ahoy, two kinds of Pringles. We ordered Lay's, right? Ruffles? Ruffles. We ordered three Nerds Ropes.

We ordered some candy. Now, we didn't eat all this. We also ordered alcohol. Yeah. We had to drink some Arnie Palmy's. Because just we were like, we've got to stop. We knew we were just going to have to get right back to it and re-record. But we needed a moment of silence.

And we needed to drown our sorrows. And now we both feel like we're going to throw up. We ate too many snackies. And here we are. Norm tried to stop us. Norm was like, this is a lot. Yeah, he's like, are you guys sure?

This is too much. And we're like, shut up. He tried to hold us back. Mm-hmm. Norman Caruso. We will bankrupt this podcast. Yeah.

Anyway, we're back. Oh, the other thing that sucks, both our cases are about total dirt bags today. Yeah, and like, had amazing reveals in them.

Yes. And it was so exciting. The twists and the turns. So, anyway, you'll just have to be excited about the twists and turns because we've heard this shit already. We've already heard it. It's old news. It's old news. But we're still super excited.

You know, it's been a minute since we've had a recording catastrophe such as this. We were getting too cocky. Yeah. Yeah. Our cocks were huge. Our cocks were huge. We haven't had a disaster like this in like 50 episodes or something. At least 50 episodes.

Boy, oh boy. We have learned today. And you know what I have learned? What? Combining pizza-flavored pretzels, Pringles. Pringles. I'm sorry. I am one and three-fourths deep into some alcohol. Into some Arnie Palmy.

You know, just the other week we were like, someone asked in the Discord, what's the drunkest you've ever been in an episode? And we're like, we don't get drunk. We don't get drunk on the episodes. Well. I mean, I'm not drunk. The lie detector determined. That was a lie. I am drunk on Oreos.

Yeah. And Pringles. I eat a lot of junk food. I mean, I didn't have any pizza Pringles. I ate sour cream and onion Pringles, which are my favorite. Which is funny, because I don't like sour cream or onions. Oh, it's hilarious. You know how I know it was your favorite?

Why? Because when you were trying to decide what to order, you were like, hey, Norm, you want sour cream and onion Pringles? And he was like, whatever. You're like, okay, well, what do you want? And he's like, naming some others. You're like, yeah, but what do you want? How about the sour cream and onion ones? And then finally you're like,

I'm just gonna go ahead and get it. I'm getting it. You know what? I'm gonna go crazy. I deserve the it. I'm getting it. You know what? I'm going to go crazy. I deserve the sour cream and onion Pringles. Also, I'm very hot now. I am too. Man, you want to get uncomfortable. Eat too much food. Have a little bit of alcohol.

We did get to watch some Olympics. We did. Yeah. That's pretty exciting. Male gymnasts. Yeah. In their little footie pajamas. Those footie pajama pants are the best. I mean, color us impressed. Well, and then we watched some synchronized diving, and the announcer lady was like, basically like, oh, that sucked.

That sucked. That was terrible. After I'd been like, oh, my God. That's the worst thing I've ever seen. So anyway, we got some haters in the building. Yeah. Haters, haters everywhere. Is it a sauna in here?

It might be. Good lord. Woo! Blame it on the alcohol. And the Oreos. Also, you know what? Hey, since we're doing Take Two Electric Boogaloo on this episode. Let's talk about our Patreon.

You know what we should talk about?. Let's talk about our Patreon. You know what we should talk about? Next month's Zoom call. Okay. If you want to be a part of this, it's $7. Yes. You get in, you get all the bonus episodes. More than you can shake a stick at.

That's right. You know, you can only shake a stick at 23 bonus episodes. We've got 24. That's right. What are we going to do on the Zoom call, Brandi? Okay. We've got 24. That's right. What are we going to do on the Zoom call, Brandi?

Okay. So on our last Zoom call, someone asked a question about if I could teach them how to curl hair with a flat iron. And I was like, yeah, I could totally do that. So on this one, that's what I'm going to do. I'm going to style Kristen's hair. I'm going to show you some tricks with a flat iron. And then I'm going to give her a 2000 style up to. I'm so excited. I'm very excited. Man. She's going to be looking like 2000s style up to. I'm so excited. I'm very excited.

Man. She's going to be looking like she's ready for the prom. Back in the early 2000s, you weren't going to a dance unless you had it all just like shellacked. Yes. On top of your head. Twisties. Barrel curls.

Butterfly clips. Subtlety was not a word. And then they would just straight up sprinkle glitter into that shit. I'm not going to do that. Okay. Very good. Yeah. You're just going to be glitter everywhere.

You want to keep all your glitter to yourself. That's right. That's fair enough. I have body glitter under every bit of my clothing right now. So that's our Patreon. Yeah. Sign up. What are you doing?

It's a great time. What are you waiting on? You waiting for your chips and cookies and alcohol to arrive? Don't do it. Word from the wise. Wait, it's a word to the wise. Word to the wise. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. From a wise woman. It doesn't make sense. It really doesn't make sense. Hey, word to the wise. Word to the wise, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. From a wise woman. Which as a phrase doesn't make sense. It really doesn't make sense. Hey, word to the wise. Well, if you're talking to that person, you're saying that person's the wise. That doesn't make sense.

Yeah. I'm the one with the good advice here. That's exactly right. I'm the one who just drank almost two Arnold Palmers. It should be word from the wise. Word from the wise. Don't drink two Arnold Palmers before we record. And eat 12 fistfuls of Oreos.

Plus Pringles. We didn't even eat the Nerds Ropes. No, there were so many we just left on the table. Yeah, they're just down there. Waiting for us. Waiting for us to talk about these dirt bags. Saunter on down there. All right, should I talk about a real

shitbag? Gee, if only I knew something about your case. Yes. Alright. Here, I'm just gonna put it out here, folks. This guy is a real shitbag. This case is pretty good, but it's also terrible. Yeah. Yeah. Same. That's the long

and short of it. Let's just back up. That's right. And short of it. Let's just pack up. That's right. And that's my case. Now launch into it, Brandi. Here we go. Shout out to an episode of Crime Watch Daily that I watched yesterday.

Doesn't matter when I watched it. Crime Watch Tuesday. That's not funny. That is funny. I'm a professional comedian. You would not believe how often I make that claim about myself in my everyday life. I make it all the time whenever Norm doesn't laugh at my jokes. Same. Yeah.

Same. Whenever. Same. Whenever, whenever David's like, no, looks ashamed of me, embarrassed almost by something I've said. Strange. You say people pay to listen. People pay to listen to me. Granted, not a ton of people. No. But still some people. And no one thinks I'm funnier than I do. Gotta be your own biggest cheerleader. All right, here we go. Cheryl Brenneke and her sister Jackie Waller were never close growing up. Cheryl was six years older than Jackie, and when she was just 16 and Jackie was 10, Cheryl moved out, got married and started a family.

At 16. Tell me something I don't know. At one point in her life, Jackie was actually closer to her nieces and nephews than she was to her sister. This all changed in 2005, though, when Jackie was pregnant with triplets. Finally, Cheryl and Jackie had something to bond over, and they became inseparable. As the sisters connected over pregnancy and then motherhood, Cheryl also grew to know Jackie's husband, Clay Waller. Hold on.

Better. Can you imagine being pregnant with triplets? No. I carried one baby in this belly. And that was plenty. Plenty. That was like one human. That was like a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. And she was one tiny baby. If I was pregnant with multiples, I would never leave the bed. You wouldn't. You'd just have to just lay in one spot all the time. It'd be nine months of me watching Survivor nonstop. Yeah.

And Norm bringing me food on a train. Yeah. Would he like fan you? He'd better. Feed you grapes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And tell me I look more beautiful by the second. Glowing. That's just sweat. But grapes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And tell me I look more beautiful by the second.

Glowing. That's just sweat. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Beautiful pregnancy glow. Yeah.

So she had three fucking babies in there. I will say, like, some women have babies. Like, I was a baby who was almost twice the size of London. I can't even imagine that. No. Yeah, London was 6 pounds, 14 ounces. I was a baby who was almost twice the size of London. I can't even imagine that. No. Yeah, London was 6 pounds, 14 ounces. So I was 10 pounds, 3 ounces when I was born.

My poor mother. And my mom is little. Yeah, your mom's a tiny little thing. Yes. She posted a picture in the Discord. Did you see everybody was like, oh my God, your skin is amazing. People, I would not lie to you about that. Anyway, Jackie, pregnant with triplets, and she and her sister finally have something to bond over, and they become inseparable.

So during this time, Cheryl also starts to get to know Jackie's husband, Clay, a little bit better. And she did not care for him. She found him rude and overbearing. And she was worried that he was volatile and might be dangerous for Jackie. At some point, she gathered up enough courage to tell Jackie this. And she just kind of brushed it off. Jackie told her sister that she heard her concerns but that she knew how to handle him and actually

you know if she really thought about it she would see that it was really Jackie's fault you know the way he acted because she was super codependent and really an enabler and so it was basically just all her fault that he was super shitty to her.

Oh, OK. No. No. That's not the way that works. Not at all. But that is the way it works is when the shitty person convinces you that you are the reason that they are that they are shitty. Gaslighting is pretty powerful.

Yeah, absolutely. But Cheryl kind of pushed back a little bit at that. And she pointed out how Clay didn't really help with the triplets, which meant that Jackie was the one doing all the late night feedings and the diaper changes, and she wasn't getting any sleep. Yet she was still working a 40-plus hour work week on top of all of that. Hell no. No, absolutely not. I'm sure Clay was busy, though. I'm sure he was super, super busy sleeping.

You know what's really cool? What? So David and I made this agreement when we had London that in the beginning when he was home with me, because he got to be home for the first couple weeks before he had to go back to work. In that time, he did all the diapers and I did all the feedings. And then like when he went back to work, anytime he was home, we kept that up. He did the diapers and I did the feedings. It was a really great balance. Yeah.

Yeah. It was, like, I think that's a, like, you have to share things. Well, yeah, no shit. Yeah. You both made the kit. Yes, exactly. Wait, is this your revolutionary tip that men should do stuff? Yeah, men should help.

That's my hot tip. Men should help with the baby that they helped bring into the world. I hate that word. Which word? Help. Oh, yeah, it's their baby. Yeah, okay, so. They should take care of, yeah.

My biggest pet peeve? Uh-huh. When men talk about helping out around the house. Oh, yeah, so. They should take care of, yeah. My biggest pet peeve? Uh-huh. When men talk about helping out around the house. Oh, yeah, no. Fuck that. It's your fucking house, too. I have never once in my life heard a woman say that she was going to help out around the house. No.

What? No. No. No. Women don't get to say that. No. So men don't get to say that either. You're absolutely right.

You're a grown-ass man. Anyway. Anyway. It's fine. Back to this shit bag. Not're absolutely right. You're a grown ass man. Anyway. Anyway. It's fine. Back to this shit bag. Not David. David's not a shit bag at all. So Cheryl's pointing out that, you know, maybe Clay's not pulling his weight and that really.

He's a bag of dicks. Yeah. And so she went on to talk about his attitude. And she was like, he's a bag of dicks. Just a front. See, Clay had a speech impediment. And his whole life he had been teased about it. And it made him that way. Jackie said that deep, deep, deep down inside. Like where no one can see him. How deep. He was really sweet and loving.

Uh-huh. Jackie said she felt sorry for him. Okay, but that is true, though. If you've been bullied as a kid, you get to be a dick for the rest of your life. No one is quiet! And so at that point, Cheryl just kind of let it go, but she kept a watchful eye on her sister. just kind of let it go, but she kept a watchful eye on her sister. And as the triplets got older, she watched as the relationship between Jackie and Clay became more and more strained.

She watched as Jackie climbed the ranks in the insurance industry, securing a job in management and doing well for herself financially. And she watched as Clay flitted from job to job. What kind of jobby jobs was he? He had a truck, so I think some kind of manual labor type of situation. Gotcha.

And he was unable to keep one with any kind of consistency. That wasn't his fault because of the speech impediment. That's right. It was the, you know, he had to put up the defenses because of the bullying. Right. Down inside, he was a good worker.

Yeah, yeah. And she watched as she saw the signs that the relationship between Jackie and Clay had become physically abusive. And she watched as she saw Jackie crushed by the revelation that Clay had had yet another affair. That she held her tongue. She didn't know what to do. She'd already done, you know, the thing where she tried to point out, you know, maybe what Jackie didn't see in the relationship and it hadn't really done any good. But finally, in 2010, when the triplets were five, Jackie confided in her sister that she was going to leave. She had finally seen the light.

She knew she would be happier living a life without Clay. And she knew she could do it on her own because she was basically doing it on her own now. Well, and she'd probably been building up the courage to do that for years. And the main driving force was that she knew she could no longer let her children be exposed to this terrible relationship between her and Clay. It was time for a change.

But Jackie told Cheryl that she knew she had to be careful. She knew how dangerous it could be to leave an abusive relationship. And Jackie was scared. She told Cheryl that. But she knew what she needed to do and she was prepared to do so. And then Jackie was given a gift of fate. At some point, Clay had lost another one of his jobs. And despite Jackie's career successes, she was unable to support the family entirely on her own.

And in December of 2010, they lost their house. career successes, she was unable to support the family entirely on her own. And in December of 2010, they lost their house. To Jackie, though, this was an absolute blessing because it forced her into action. They were going to have to move. So why didn't they go ahead and move into separate residences? She made this decision on December 3rd, 2010. She took the kids and moved into her sister's house. And then she called Clay and told him that she was filing for divorce and that he needed to find his own place to live. to live.

Predictably, Clay was pissed and he told Jackie that he was going to take their son. Their triplets were two girls and a boy. He was going to

take their son and they were going to move to California. He told her it was the only way that he could ensure Jackie's safety. How's that now?

Mm-hmm. He said it wouldn't be possible for him to live near Jackie thinking that another man might be in her life. He wouldn't be able to control himself. He threatened her life. Mm-hmm. He told her that a divorce

would be her death sentence. During this conversation, he made numerous threats on her life, and then he finished by saying he had a feeling that one of them would not be around to watch their kids grow up. to watch their kids grow up. Ugh. Mm-hmm. Things continued like this for the next couple of months. But despite that, Jackie finally felt like

she was living the life she wanted. She had moved in with her sister. They were living in St. Genevieve, Missouri, which is about an hour south of St. Louis. It's on the Missouri-Illinois border. I just heard of that place today.

Yeah. Yeah, right? And she knew that it was important to keep track of these things that Clay was saying, these threats he was making. So she kept like a log on her computer. But for the most part, she just brushed them off. And she tried to keep herself as safe as possible. She made the handoffs between kids as public as possible, made sure other people were involved. And as time passed from that

original date where she told him she wanted the divorce, things seemed to settle. Not before he made threats on their children's lives, though. On one instance, Clay told her that he was going to take the kids on a camping trip and drown them. And then he was going to come and tell her personally so that he could see her face when she

learned that her children were dead. Fuck this guy. Yeah. He's a bag of dicks. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't even describe it. No. Yeah. He's a bag of dicks. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't even describe it. No. Yeah. But again, she just made a note of that in her little log and she tried to move forward. By the spring of 2011, it seemed that everything was going to work out.

Clay had finally agreed to the divorce and it would be finalized in June. And then Jackie would be free to live her life. She'd actually begun dating by this point. And she was seeing a guy. And it was getting kind of serious. They'd had conversations about moving in together. And they had plans to do that. But Jackie didn't want to do it until the divorce was finalized.

She didn't want to complicate things. And didn't know. Just didn't want to tempt Clay until the divorce was finalized. She didn't want to complicate things and didn't know, just didn't want to tempt Clay in any way. Yeah. Yeah. And Clay had started seeing somebody as well. And things were serious enough that the kids had met this woman and were staying with this woman in her home on some weekends that Clay had her.

And it seemed like things were moving in the right direction. Fast forward to June 1st, 2011. That day, Jackie and Clay went to a meeting at their attorney's office to sign some papers for the divorce. It was like the final signing of everything to be submitted to the judge for the finalization. After the meeting, Jackie called her sister Cheryl and said, I'm leaving the attorney's office.

Everything went great. No problems. Looks like everything's going to be fine. I'm almost done. And then she told Cheryl that she was going to run by Clay's house.

Her son was there. She was going to go pick him up and then she'd be home. But Jackie never came home that day. At around seven o'clock, Cheryl was panicked that Jackie hadn't made it home yet. She had tried to call Jackie several times with no answer. She'd also tried to call Clay and of course no answer as well.

Finally she left him a message that said, if I do not hear from my sister in 10 minutes I will be calling the police. And wouldn't you know it he called

her right back. He was just super cash. Oh yeah's like calm down what's this you haven't heard from jackie that's super weird i saw her earlier today but you know no big deal i had nothing weird uh yeah i mean if i hear her i'll let her know you're looking for and i'll tell her to give you a call yeah yeah i'm sure everything'm sure everything's fine. Don't worry. I didn't murder her or anything. Yeah, everything's A-OK. But Cheryl obviously did not believe a word he had to say. And she immediately got in her car and drove to Clay's house in Jackson, Missouri, which is about an hour south of where they lived.

As she got to Jackson, she actually. What'd she actually do? She actually stopped at the police station. She went in and she said, I need your help. Clay Waller killed my sister. And they're like, whoa, whoa. Why don't you calm down there, little missy? What's this you say?

And she was like, listen, this is the deal. And she walked them through the whole relationship between Clay and Jackie and told her that they'd been together that day and she'd been unable to reach her sister since. And that she had very serious concerns that Clay had done something to her sister. And the police looked at her and they said, OK, we believe you. And they immediately sent an officer out to Clay's house. I have to own this. The first time we recorded this, I about shat my pants because I was expecting the, well, let's wait 24 hours and blah, blah, blah.

I know. And Cheryl, when she talked to them, she was like, I know it has only been a couple hours, but I am telling you. I am telling you that he has done something to her. And they were like, okay, all right, we'll go right now. And so they did. They sent an officer to Clay's house and they knocked on the door and they were like, we have some people who are concerned about the welfare of your wife and they haven't been able to get in contact with her and they know that she was with you today. And Clay's like, yeah, I mean, we were with each other today.

This morning we met at Walgreens around 11. I had an errand to run there there which I think is super fucking weird I don't understand what they were doing at Walgreens I said this earlier I'll say it again Brandy you do too understand no you love Walgreens more than anything on earth

I love Walgreens however I don't understand why if they specifically had an errand they needed to do at Walgreens. However, I don't understand why if they if they specifically had an errand, they needed to do a Walgreens. Why didn't they do it like right before their meeting at the attorney or right after their meeting at the attorney? Instead, they did this, which I think is super fucking weird. They went to Walgreens at 11 a.m., did whatever errand they needed to do. They had to be there together for it. And then they went their own separate ways, ran their own separate errands.

And then they met again at the attorney's office at 3 p.m. OK, that is really weird. It is weird. I think it's really weird. Something with the photo center. I don't know. Do you make an appointment to pick up your photos back in the day? So, no, no.

No. The only thing you made an appointment for was, like, a passport photo. But they weren't doing that. No. Anyway, I don't know. I think it's weird. It doesn't really matter. It's not pertinent here.

Just I'm very fired up about it. Let's discuss it at length. So after they went to the attorney's office, they signed the papers, and he said they both went back to his house because they wanted to talk some things through about the divorce. And when they'd gotten there, he admitted that there'd been some kind of an argument, but it wasn't any big deal. No big deal at all. And Jackie had just kind of stormed off and just like, you know, walked outside, you know, like you do just to cool down a bit. And while she was just out there walking around, Clay got in his car and left. And when he came back, he said Jackie's car was gone. It all checks out to me.

I would totally leave my house with someone else's car in the driveway and them lurking around the neighborhood. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That makes total sense. Total sense. And he's like, yeah, it's, I mean, that's what happened. When I came back and her car was gone, I assumed that she'd, you know, walked off and left. And they're like, okay. all right, sure thing, buddy. And so they searched

the area, sent out some patrol cars, and they actually find Jackie's car not that far away. It's on the side of the road with a flat tire. It looked as if she'd been driving along and she blew the tire. And so she'd pulled over and then maybe she'd called for help. Someone had come and picked her up. Or maybe as she was sitting there on the side of the road, someone abducted her. Yeah. The world's luckiest abductor just happened to be driving down that road looking for women to abduct. Yeah.

And there she was, ripe for the plucking. I don't think so. That's right. And so the police are like, well, I mean, it looks like his story checks out. Great job, Clay. Have a nice day. Mm-hmm. And then like one second later, they were looking at the tire.

I'm a poet and I didn't know it. One second later, they were looking at the tire and they're like, okay, this doesn't make any fucking sense. This tire has not been driven on at all while flat. This tire was slashed after the car was already parked. So that abductor was pretty clever, is what you're saying. And so now they're like, all right, Clay, that was pretty good. You almost had us there. So they're like, maybe we better look into Clay a little bit more.

I know, he seems like a good guy. And so they decided to check out his account of what had gone on that day and see if they could match it up with security footage around town that day. Or common sense, yeah. Yeah. And so they checked some security cameras, and they found footage of him and Jackie in the Walgreens at 11 a.m. doing God knows what. It kills me that I can't know.

It looked to me like they were at the pharmacy counter, but I don't know what they would both need to be there for. Yeah, that is strange. Don't know. Anyway, and then they found some footage of Jackie around 2 p.m. She was at an ATM. I've got an idea. What do you got? What do you got?

It's really far-fetched. What do you got? Maybe the triplets needed some medication, and they decided to go there and split the cost. It's possible. It is possible. That's a real stretch. That's one of the things that I thought of, too, but I think it sounds weird. It does sound weird.

Yeah. I'll give you that. Anyway, they found footage of Jackie. What do you got? They had an appointment to go get a nerds rope and they were going to lady in the tramp it. Oh, and see if they could reignite their relationship? No, just share a nerds rope.

Oh, okay. It's a platonic. A platonic nerds rope. Yeah. Like we often do. Exactly. All the time. I've got a nerds rope in my mouth right now.

You better hurry up. So they were able to then confirm with the attorney that they'd both been there for the appointment. Great, whatever. And then they followed up on what Clay had said, and they found some footage of him at a toy store that afternoon, evening, after the appointment sometime that same day. OK. And then they found some footage of him at a car wash, washing his boat. Here's the thing about the footage in the evening, though, is that he had different clothes on than he had earlier in the day, which, by itself, not that alarming,

but when you're looking at someone and possibly being responsible for a disappearance, that's a red flag. Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. If a costume change is a crime, then lock Miss Celine Dion up. Okay?

Okay. is a crime. Then lock Miss Celine Dion up. Okay? How much blood did he wash off his car? Or boat, excuse me. His boat. It was his boat. Yes.

He washed it off his boat. Uh-huh. So, they're like, okay, this looks bad. This looks real bad, but it's all circumstantial and we don't have a body. So. Well, yeah, because he sped off with it in his little boat. In his little boat. So they don't think they can arrest him.

What they do think they have enough to do is take the children into protective custody, keep them from Clay. And so they did did and they granted custody to cheryl jackie's sister yes in case anybody was confused about who cheryl was i'm sorry i just realized i've heard this story twice so yeah i'm you know who cheryl i'm like yeah duh my best friend Cheryl. Shut up. Come on. This pissed Clay off. He was furious about this. In the meantime, there were like all of these searches

going on, obviously, for Jackie. They wanted to search Clay's house as well, but they didn't have probable cause initially. And so they like pulled up to his house one day and he was like really fucking with the police by this point. So they pull up to his house.

He fucked with the police during this entire investigation. He like smart. Yeah. He would flip them off when they drive past his house. He'd flip. He'd yell at them when he saw them in town, like all kinds of crazy shit. Anyway, they pull up to his house one day and they decide to like peek into his truck, you know, see if they can see anything in there. And there's blood all over the fucking place inside his truck.

And so they're like, great, we can search his truck now. So they open that up. They take blood samples. They send it off to the lab. They're like, great, this is wonderful. We've got proof. We're going to be able to arrest him. The blood samples come back and it's fish blood. He has intentionally like rubbed fish blood all

over inside of his truck. And when they ask him about it, he's like, I just wanted to see if you guys were doing stuff on the up and up. I wanted to see if you guys would try and claim that this was Jackie's blood. This is the weirdest part of your story. It is super fucking weird. But what this did do is while they were waiting for those results to come back, this gives them probable cause to search the inside

of his home. So he's a fucking idiot. Yes. And so they go into his home and in the hallway there's fucking blood spatter on the wall and there's a giant piece of carpet missing. And in the hallway, there's fucking blood spatter on the wall. And there's a giant piece of carpet missing. And so they search the rest of the home. They don't really find anything else of note until they get to the basement. In the basement, like nothing was really disturbed, except there was this like little weird area off to the back. And the officers are like,

what's that area back there? And one of the officers noticed that there seemed to be like a spot in the floor where the dust was disturbed, like someone had dragged something through. And so they checked it out and that weird spot in the basement

happened to be access to a crawl space. So they open it up and they go back there and it's the missing carpet from the hallway upstairs. It's all been cut into little tiny strips.

So they pull it out, open it all up, and it's covered in blood. Blood spots all over this carpet. So they send that off to the lab, and this time it is Jackie's blood. Mm-hmm. They still don't think they have enough at this point to arrest him. They don't feel confident. They are being silly. I agree.

I think that is enough at that point, but they don't feel confident without a body. And so they just keep a real close eye on him. He's like under constant surveillance. In the meantime, there's all these like find Jackie Waller groups on Facebook and stuff. And in one of those Cheryl had posted something and Clay comments on her post or comments about her or something I don't know the exact content but he says something to the effect of if anything happens to my children you're dead I will get you eventually good lord and so cheryl is obviously highly

disturbed by this because at this point we know that he has killed her sister we know what he is capable of and so she takes it to the police and they're like great we can arrest him now. It is a federal offense. Fuck. It's a federal offense. It is a federal offense or a federal offense. Both. To threaten someone's life online. Like, you have to prove that the threat is credible.

It's a credible threat. Yeah, and in this case, it sure fucking is. And so they arrest him, and he's charged with this, this making a threat online. And he pleads guilty, I think, thinking that he's going to get off with probation. Absolutely. That's what I would think. Yeah. But at the sentencing, after he pleads guilty, they bring in the lead investigator on Jackie Waller's disappearance case and lays out all of the evidence they have against him so far, circumstantial or not.

And says, like, this is directly related to this. This is what he is capable of. And they sentence him to five years in prison. That's incredible to me. I know. I had no idea you could get that kind of time. Me either. Me either.

And I'm sure Clay Waller didn't know that either. I don't know. He seems really bright with that fish blood trick. Yeah. So police are like, great, we've got this guy off the streets. But now, like, we have a timer ticking. Like, he's only in prison for five years, which with time served, like, with good behavior, he's only

going to serve half of that. So we need to build a case against him. And we need to find Jackie's body. So they have all of these searches. They have cadaver dogs going all over the place, and they just are getting nothing. They have no

leads. Finally, like, two, he's been in no leads. Finally, like two, he's been in prison for like two years. So they're really coming up on that early release deadline. Yeah. And they think they have enough of a circumstantial case.

They finally charge him with first degree murder of Jackie and tampering with evidence. The case was strong, but it was circumstantial and they still didn't have a body. But the prosecution was ready for it. They were moving toward trial. And I don't know exactly what circumstances took place, but at some point. It looks to me from my understanding, Clay's attorney approached the prosecution and was like, how about a deal?

We will plead guilty to second degree murder. But Clay wants the maximum that he'll serve to be 20 years. And the prosecution is like, they don't feel great about this deal. And they take it to be 20 years. And the prosecution is like, they don't feel great about this deal. And they take it to Jackie's parents. And they're like, if he will tell us where her body is and tell us exactly what he did to her, we will okay the deal

because that's what's most important to us. We want Jackie's remains recovered. We want her to have a proper burial. We want her to have a funeral. We want some kind of closure here. Right. And so with Jackie's parents' permission, they relayed this deal to the defense and they took it. In the time between when this deal was struck and agreed to and when he was sentenced, Clay has to make good on it.

He has to tell them what he did and he has to tell them where Jackie's body is. Oh, yes. And so he does. Let's hear it. Okay. This is what happened on the day that Jackie went missing. So they went to that meeting at the attorney's office and everything went fine. And then as they were leaving, Jackie was like, you know what, Clay?

I really just want to bang one more time. Yeah, no. And Clay's like, I mean, I guess. I guess if you want a piece of this, come on back to my house. And so she did. And come on back to my house. And so she did. And she went back to Clay's house and they were in the kitchen and they were just going to go in for a little smoochy smooch. And they accidentally, oh no, bumped heads. And then Jackie, her nose started bleeding and there was just like all this blood pouring from her nose.

And she walked out of the kitchen. Just tons and tons of it, yeah. All this blood pouring from her nose. And she walked out of the kitchen. Just tons and tons of it. Yeah. And she walked out of the kitchen into the hallway. Blood pouring everywhere. Spurting, really.

Just splattering. We've all had a bad nosebleed. It's how it goes. Absolutely. And so with all this blood coming out, Jackie looks at Clay and starts just taunting him. She said, I'm going to tell everyone that you beat me up. You're never going to see your kids again. Look what you've done.

And Clay, he just couldn't handle it. She was threatening him. What was he supposed to do? Probably murder her. And so he just punched her in the face just one time. Oh yeah, sure. Just one time. Sure. And she fell to the ground. And then when she was on the ground, he just

pressed his arm against her neck until she stopped moving. But I mean, she had threatened him. She had threatened to take his kids away. Yeah. Yeah. We can all see how this really isn't his his kids away. Yeah. Yeah.

We can all see how this really isn't his fault at all. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. It's so normal that someone goes from wanting to bang to wanting to take your kids away in about 12 seconds. Yeah. And, like, I mean, he hadn't planned any of this. Sure.

No. It was just like a crime of passion type of thing, you know? Well, he couldn't plan for her to threaten him. No, no. Or for them to have the ouchiest kiss of all time. That's right. That's right. I hate this guy.

Mm-hmm. Ugh. Mm-hmm. hate this guy. So then it was time for him to tell the authorities where he'd taken Jackie's body.

And so he told them that he had taken her to Devil's Island, which is like this little sandbar in the Mississippi River on the Illinois side of the river. And so he takes them out there and it's like, you have to, you basically have to reach it by boat. You can get there by land, I guess, but it's really difficult to navigate. And so they get out there and he's

taking them around and he's like, I really, can't remember. I can't remember where where I buried her. I mean, she's under a tree somewhere. I buried her in a hole and then I put fertilizer on her and I buried her at the base of a tree. That's all I remember. Well, one of the officers who happens to be present there hears this. And he just like has this little thing in the back of his brain where he remembers where he heard sometime, if you put too much fertilizer down, it can kill the roots of a tree. And so he's like, we need to find a dead tree. The tree she's buried under will be dead. And so they start searching the island and they find a dead tree covered, like surrounded by a ton of greenery.

And then there's just this one dead tree covered like surrounded by a ton of greenery and then there's just this one dead tree and so they start digging and sure enough there's her body when they do an autopsy they find of course that her injuries don't match his account really? at all

how shocking! She has several facial fractures and multiple skull fractures. She'd been beaten to death. Her cause of death was ruled blunt force trauma. So this all goes down

and they have already agreed to this deal and so they're stuck with it even though his version of events doesn't match the evidence. And so they go forward with sentencing and he's sentenced to the 20 years. And the judge tells him 20 years in prison is not what you deserve, but it will have to do. Yeah, it's a crime.

Yeah. If he only gets 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. There were victim impact statements that were read in church. Not in church. In court. In court.

One of them was by Cheryl, Jackie's sister. She said, does she haunt you? Do you see it? Do you see the life go out of her eyes, Clay? Do you replay it in your mind, putting her in that hole you dug and with each shovel of dirt covering her body, do you see it over and over? I pray that you do. Over and over, I pray that you do. Jackie's son also gave a victim impact statement. So they actually recorded his so he wouldn't have to deliver it in court.

But on the recording, he said, you killed our mom. You're a jerk. I wish you were never my dad. Please stay in jail forever. I never want to see you again. We don't like you anymore. I like the words of a seven-year-old. That's so sad.

Yeah. Finding out the truth that none of it, his story didn't match the evidence the family especially cheryl was really upset about the deal she never wanted a deal but it was what her parents wanted it was it was what they felt like they need to needed to do to get jackie's body back yeah and that was worth it to them. But the prosecution was pissed, too. And so they were, like, trying to see if there was anything more they could do now that they knew he had told a lie. He hadn't really held up his end of the bargain. And so they were just going through, like, his version that he had told him. And they latched on to this one little detail.

What was the detail, Brandy? That he had told them. and they latched on to this one little detail. What was the detail, Brandy? That he had told them. He told them that the day before Jackie disappeared, that he had gone out to Devil's Island and dug the hole for her body. And at the time, the investigators were like,

hold on, hold on, hold on. You went out the day before. Yeah, you premeditated this murder. You just told us that this wasn't planned, that this was a spur of the moment thing based on her threats that she made to you. But you went out the day before and dug a hole. And it was clear in this. I watched the video of this. Oh, did you really?

Yes. And it's clear that he's like, oh, shit. Shouldn't have said that. And he's like, he hymns and haws for a moment, and he's like, and they're like, doesn't that sound like premeditation to you? Yeah, it does. And he's like, well, I guess you could call it that

if you wanted to. Yeah, that's definitely premeditation when you dig someone's grave before you murder them because he had done that lay it on me what he had done was he had crossed state lines he'd gone from missouri to illinois dug the hole and then returned to Missouri, crossing state lines again, this time with the intention of killing Jackie. This meant that he could be charged under this rarely used law called the Interstate Domestic Violence Act.

You know what I say? Call the mayor. We're going federal. That's right. And so he was charged with this additional charge. Uh-huh. And obviously they were able to prove this. They had him on video saying it.

And he was sentenced to an additional 35 years in prison. And he has to complete 85% of his original 20 year sentence before that 35 year sentence ever starts how sweet it is to be loved by you

I mean I just love that it's this shitbag's own version that fucks him over like this he thinks he's so smart He thinks he's so smart. He thinks he's so smart.

He thinks he's got them totally played. Like, yeah, he worked the system perfectly. Uh-huh. Yeah. And oops, fudge stripes. Yeah. He's an idiot. Yes.

Even with this additional 35 years, Cheryl still didn't feel great about the deal, but she felt like it was satisfactory. It will keep Clay in prison until he's 80 years old at his earliest possible release date. Right. Which means the kids will be well into adulthood. Hopefully they will be old enough to handle the complex

emotions of that. And the bigger part was that this is what her parents wanted. And this way her parents will not have to live to see him possibly be released from prison. I think there's a very real possibility he will die in prison. Hell yeah. I can't imagine that he will be a model prisoner. No.

As volatile as he seems to be. as volatile as he seems to be. The real version of what they think happened that day is that Clay lured Jackie to the house saying that their son was there and that she needed to come pick him up. He wasn't there. He was never there. He was staying at Clay's girlfriend's house.

Yeah. See, that version actually makes sense. Oh, 100%. She did not go there saying, let's have one more bang. Those were Clay's exact words. Let's have one more bang. She wanted one last bang. Give me a break.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And that's the story of a real shitbag. I bet you think you're really special talking about a shit bag. I bet you think I don't have a shit bag to talk about. I actually do know that you do have a shit bag. But you

know what I think we should do before we talk about a second shit bag? What should we do? Let's talk about something that doesn't suck. Alright, you ready for this? Oh! This is the shit bag episode. It is. Can we name the episode that? What if we do like an asterisk instead of the I?

I'm so glad you said that word and not me. I always get really nervous. Asterisk? I think we should call this episode shitbags. All right. Yeah. Because it's kind of a shitbag episode. It is a shit.

We're kind of shitbags because. The cookies, the chips, the alcohol. All right. Shout out to an episode of 2020. What's the name of it? I can't tell you because it gives too much away. And I would hate it, Brandy, if you knew what the twist. I do have to say, just before we go in, I was blown away by this case.

I was trying to put it together the whole time. I made several guesses. None of them correct. I think that's what makes me so upset about us losing it. I know, so good. Both of our cases had a lot of twisties, a lot of turnies. Anyway, we've got to get over it. It was our usual shitty cases.

It wouldn't have even mattered. Yeah, that's right. All right. Back to the same old shit next week. Yes. It was the summer of 1995, and Mark and Donna Winger were overjoyed. Like, truly overjoyed. They'd been married for six years, and most of the pieces of their lives had fallen right into place.

Like a jigsaw puzzle. They'd moved to Springfield, Illinois for Mark's job as a nuclear engineer, and Donna had found work as an operating room tech at Memorial Medical Center. My bra has a thread falling down, and it's bugging the shit out of me. Is it tickling your titties? No, it's tickling my stomach. Do you need to adjust? No, I just needed to complain to the people.

Great. This is the complaining episode. They lived in a nice little brick ranch, and they'd found a synagogue that they loved, and everything was great. Except at some point, they discovered that Donna couldn't have children. And that was devastating. Donna wanted desperately to become a mom and Mark wanted to become a dad. He'd always wanted like a really big family. How big's really big? Really big! Fill up this whole room. But that couldn't happen, at least not biologically.

So the couple started thinking about adoption, and I think this story will be super relatable to anyone who has ever adopted a child. So here's how the process went for them. One day while Donna was at work in the operating room, a doctor waltzed in and was like, attention everyone! I've got a patient who's a teen mom and she wants to place her baby for adoption. Does anyone know of somebody who wants to adopt a baby? Going once, going

twice. The complete use. That happens very regularly. And Donna was like, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! And she jumped up and down and she hugged Bob Barker. She's like, yes, me right here. She had won the showcase showdown. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da. No, so we talked about this a little.

Yeah. I do have some friends who did a private adoption. And I think it's much quicker, easier to do it that way. But I'm thinking of like the traditional adoption. Man, it's not this fast. No. So that's how on June 1st, 1995, Mark and Donna Winger became parents to a beautiful little girl named Bailey. That's right, folks.

You heard that right. Both of our cases involved June 1st. Wow. Coincidence? I think not. Mark took a ton of home videos at this time, and he, of course, recorded the moment that they brought little Bailey home.

And in that video, Donna is beaming. She has tears in her eyes, and she's got a huge, beautiful smile, and she's holding that little baby like it's the most precious thing on earth. Donna later told one of her sisters that she knew the minute that Bailey was put in her arms that Bailey had always been hers. Yeah.

It was an instant connection. So Mark and Donna settled into their new lives as parents, and they loved it. Donna's family also loved it. Donna was the oldest of three girls, and Bailey was the first grandchild, and everyone was pumped to have this adorable little baby in the family. Of course. We can all relate. Pumped!

Everyone gets pumped for the first grandchild! Absolutely. But at one point, just a couple months after the Wingers adopted little Bailey, Mark had to leave town for a work conference. And so, of course, like any good grandma, Donna's mom, Sarah Jane, who is beautiful. How beautiful is she? She's so beautiful that I have to bring it up here, even though it's not relevant to the story. beautiful that I have to bring it up here, even though it's not relevant to the story.

It's just that sometimes when you're watching these shows and someone comes on with perfect hair, tastefully done makeup, gorgeous skin, classically dressed. Stop describing me, Kristen! I was blown away by this

moment. I was like, this lady. Were you like, damn! Is that what you said to your TV? No. Oh. What I said to myself was, if she had a YouTube channel, I would watch this shit out of it. Or if she was just like, hey, this is what I eat in a day. This is my routine.

This is how I take care of my hair. I would watch that. Yeah. I love old ladies on YouTube. Are there old ladies on YouTube? Hell yeah! I watch old lady maintenance routines all the time because it's like, oh, you're 22 and you found a great concealer. Fuck you.

I want to see what actually works on someone who's older. So I myself am an old woman. I don't. I don't have YouTube. But I've recently discovered TikTok. And I watched this video. Well, you can't be that old. I am.

I'm an old lady who watches TikTok. And I saw this video, this little TikTok of this old woman. Uh-huh. Loved it. She was drinking some tea. Uh-huh. Putting together a jigsaw puzzle. Mm-hmm.

And singing WAP. Love it. I loved it. Okay. So, you know, Sarah Jane is beautiful, and that's important to the story. Don't forget it at all. I think it's important to the story in no way. How dare you?

And I guess I can't argue with you because you've heard this story before. I have heard this story. So you know it has no bearing on anything. But so Sarah Jane was like, hey, why don't you and the baby come down to Florida, stay with me and your stepdad while Mark's at his conference. And Donna was like. I bet her stepdad's name is Ira, right? You're a genius. Uh-huh.

I remembered that because I think it's an odd name. Really? I do. Ira's a pretty common name. Is it? Is it that common? Yeah. Oh, okay.

Here's your problem. You don't hang out around many Jewish people. Is it a common Jewish name? Is that what it is? It's super common. Oh, okay. Here's your problem. You don't hang out around many Jewish people. Is it a common Jewish name? Is that what it is? It's super common. Oh, so I always think of that old sitcom, Mad About You, because there was a guy named Ira on it. And it was the first time I'd ever heard the name Ira. I'm from Kansas.

I had no idea it was a Jewish name. Really? Yeah. You have seriously never met someone with the name Ira? I've never met anybody named Ira, no. You just one time met someone on Mad About You through your television test. Yes, and his name was Ira. And I was like, that's an odd name. No, not at all.

It's not odd at all. Anyway. So, you know, Donna's like, absolutely. It'll be perfect. So Sarah Jane and Ira, craziest name I've ever heard, would get some extra time with the new grandbaby. And Donna would get a little extra help, and she wouldn't have to be home alone. Great, great, great.

So that's what they did. Had a nice little visit, and at the end of it, Sarah Jane dropped the two of them off at the airport, and she arranged for a driver to pick up Donna and Bailey at the St. Louis airport and drive them the two hours home to Springfield. It'd be great. You know, Donna would take care of the baby while this mystery driver would take care of the driving. Excellent.

Sounds like a perfect plan. This is like a pre-Uber situation. Is it really pre-Uber because they still have these transportation services? All right, this is an Uber alternative. Is that better? It still have these transportation services. Alright, this is an Uber alternative. Is that better? It's just a transportation service. Being kind of a dick here, Kristen.

I'm sorry, I'm in a terrible mood. So, you know, sure enough, Donna and Bailey got off the plane in St. Louis, and this guy picked them up in, like, a sketchy-looking van. Yeah. And he said his name was Roger. And they all piled into the van with Roger and soon discovered that Roger was a talker. That's not great. No. That's one of my least favorite times.

Talking? And I am a talker, but like, yeah, I don't know. I don't like the chitty-chatty with the, well, I was going to say with strangers, but that's literally what I do all day long. That's what you do all day.. That's what you do all day. And you know what you do when you're not doing that? You come and do a podcast and you just chit chat the day away. All right, I guess I fucking love chit chatting then.

Maybe you don't love it right now because I'm being kind of a dick because you've never heard the name Ira before. And you're not familiar with transportation services. I'm from Kansas. So am I. Yeah, but you've seen the big world. You've been to the big city. I just snorted. I've never left Johnson County.

This is a true story. It is. I don't understand how buses work. Okay, everyone. This is not a plug for the Patreon. But one time, Brandi and I got into a serious fight about Greyhound buses.

And nothing made me more satisfied than when people were like, uh, yeah, we're on Kristen's side. Everyone, I'm dancing now. I'm doing a great job of it. Anyway, Donna quickly discovered that this was not the type of guy you wanted to be stuck with in a car for two hours. Do you have any

thoughts on Greyhound buses, Brandi? No, I don't want to talk about Greyhound buses. You want to apologize or do you want to admit you were totally, totally wrong? No! No! I don't want to talk about Greyhound Buses. You want to apologize for doing that? No! You admit you were totally, totally wrong. No! Couldn't be more wrong. No! I will not!

Right away, Roger started telling her that there was a voice inside his head. That's great. The voice's name was Dom. Uh-huh. And Dom told him to do bad things what? I bet that's why I don't like chit chat in that kind of situation

not because they have somebody in their head but because it's what I do for my job oh so you feel like you fill up on chit chat yeah you're all spent on chit chat yes yeah that makes perfect sense

I don't want to chit chat like with a stranger while I'm waiting sense. I don't want to chit chat with a stranger while I'm waiting in line. I don't want to do that. I don't want to have a little quick little witty conversation with the person at the checkout counter. I don't want to do any of that. Okay. Okay. I will say.

I do no chit chat all day long. I sit alone in my office and just cry by myself. So when I'm out in public, I will, I will. Yes, it is hot outside, Micah. Can you believe it? Oh, yeah. Hotter than a, what is it? We were talking about these phrases. Barrel of fire.

No, we were talking because you hadn't heard of... I have heard cold... Was it colder than a witch's titty? Cold as a witch's titty? Yeah, you kept saying cold as a witch's tit, and I was like, no, the full thing is cold as a witch's tit in a brass bra, which you would know if you'd been to a big city. I've never heard in a brass bra, which you would know if you'd been to a big city. I've never heard in a brass bra. First of all, brass bras aren't a thing.

Well, neither are witch's tits. Yes, witch's tits are real. I mean, I guess, yeah. Yeah, there are. Witch's tits are a real thing. My apologies to all the witches out there and their tits. Their respective tits. That's right.

That's right. That's right. That's exactly right. Okay, anyway. Hotter than two squirrels fucking in a, two rats fucking in a wool sock. That's what Norm said. Yeah, some baseball player said that one time and boy, it's really stuck with Norm. A real impact. Anyway.

Anyway. So, you know, Dom's telling him to do bad things. Yeah. In fact, recently, Dom had been telling him to hurt people and set car bombs. Or as they're known on this podcast, car bombs. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Car bombs.

Car bombs. From there, Roger naturally transitioned into flirting with Donna. Awesome. He told her that he was into older women. Four-year age gap, by the way. She's fucking rude. And he liked to have orgies. David constantly tells me he's into old ladies.

And that's a huge compliment to you, Brandy. I mean, obviously he wouldn't be with you if he wasn't into old ladies. And that's a huge compliment to you, Brandy. I mean, obviously he wouldn't be with you if he wasn't into old ladies. And you tell him you're into young boys. No! That sounds way worse! This is a

judgment-free zone. No, it's not. This is not a Planet Fitness. No zone with me in it is a judgment-free zone. So, you know, he's like, I'm into older women. I like to have orgies. And then, because he was raised right, he invited Donna to an orgy. Obviously.

Here's the thing. It's rude to mention an event and then not extend an invitation to the event. Exactly. It would have just been rude to not invite her to an orgy at that point. I probably don't need to mention this, but when Roger wasn't talking about the demon in his head who wanted him to set car worms or politely inviting Donna to an orgy, he was speeding and generally driving like a maniac. Yeah, and she was probably terrified for her life.

Yeah, she's like, this guy's a nut, and my life and the life of my baby are in his hands. But finally... He's got her whole life in his hands. He's got Dom talking in his head. You know, there wasn't enough singing on the first version of this. There wasn't. There wasn't.

He's got an orgy at his house. He's got an orgy at his house. Finally, they arrived at Donna's house. She got inside. She locked the door. But she didn't feel safe. That car ride had been deeply unsettling. And now this guy knew where she lived.

Yes. Donna, of course, told some people about the creepy driver. She naturally told her husband, Mark, and Mark was pretty unsettled, too. He didn't like that this unstable weirdo knew where they lived and had made his wife so uncomfortable. But what can you do? What can you do? What? What?

You. Oh, what would you do? What was that? Was that a TV show back in the day? Yeah, it was a TV show. It was on Nickelodeon, right? Yeah, yeah. You're welcome, everyone.

Okay. Days passed, and Donna started getting weird phone calls. It seemed pretty clear that the creepy driver was kicking it up a notch. Mark Summers hosted it. I was not a fan of Mark Summers. What's wrong with Mark Summers? I have no idea. Mark Summers was great.

He hosted Double Dare. I know. I know. He had a smug look about him. I didn't. I don't know what it is. Mark Summers? I don't know.

I just spit across the table. That probably got on you. Thanks a lot. You know what? You know, it's been a hard day for both of us. We don't need to be spitting at each other. Podcasting with a camel. Do camels spit? I thought that was a llama thing. No,ing with a camel. Do camels spit?

I thought that was a llama thing. No, it's a camel thing. Camels spit? Camels are known for their humps and their spitting, right? I mean, let's, okay, hang on. Just like me. You're telling me

you just learned about masturbation last week but you have been known worldwide for your humps. Yeah, spitting cams. My humps. My lovely lady lumps in the back and in the front. That's right. Check it out. It is so hot in here.

It is fucking so hot in here. Ew. What? Okay, now I'm reading all about camel spit. They aren't actually spitting. It's more like throwing up. They bring up the contents of their stomach, which could be alcohol, cookies, and chips. Pringles.

Along with saliva and project it out. This is meant to surprise, distract, or bother whatever the camel feels is threatening it. That's gross. I'm sorry to have bothered or threatened you, Brandy. I rode a camel once. You did? Yeah, at old Shawnee days when I was a kid. That's in Kansas. Obviously.

Obviously she didn't leave the county to go find this camel. The camel came to her. Yeah. It was excellent. Okay. This is obviously an After Dark episode. Obviously. Not by choice.

It just happened to us. So at this point, Mark was like, okay, that's it. We're not putting up with this. This guy is a super creep. So Mark asked. Super creep. Super creep. We're super creeping.

So Mark asked Donna to write down in full detail what Roger had done. And she did. And Mark took that letter and called up the transportation company and filed a formal complaint against Roger. Yes, that's what you do. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And as a result, Roger was suspended from his job. I bet he wasn't thrilled about that. Actually, he took

it pretty well. The demon in his dad didn't. Oh, God. That's the second time I've told that joke and I couldn't get through it either time. Dumb. Not happy. Yeah. Roger, pretty level-headed. He's like, hey, I get it. Maybe I should have scaled back the orgy top just a smidge. Yeah. But Dom was mad.

Oh, no. I hate that. Well, yeah, it's a demon. Okay. Just the one demon. I got 47 demons, two devils. 43 demons, two devils. That's someone else.

This is me. So a little while later, on August 29th, 1995, at about 4.30 in the afternoon, Mark was in the basement running on his treadmill. He was just doing his thing, running along, when all of a sudden he heard a loud thump from upstairs. So he turned off the treadmill, came up the stairs. He went to the master bedroom and saw baby Bailey laying on the bed. And Mark was immediately concerned. He was like, OK, Donna wouldn't have just left the baby alone. No, of course not.

As Mark took this in, he heard noises, noises of a struggle. He knew something terrible was happening inside his home. And so he got his gun out of the nightstand and walked down the hallway. And he came upon a horrifying scene. upon a horrifying scene. A man he'd never seen before was on his knees over Donna, beating her over the head with a hammer. The man and Mark locked eyes.

But the man didn't stop. He raised the hammer, aiming once again for Donna's head. Mark had to do something. He had to save his wife. So he raised his gun and shot the man. The bullet hit the man in the head. He fell backward onto the dining room floor. But then he sat up with blood oozing out of him.

And so Mark shot him a second time, right in the head. Mark was freaking out. Donna was still alive, but barely. She'd been brutally beaten. Mark hadn't gotten to her in time. In a panic, he called 911, and he explained the situation to the dispatcher. He said he'd walked in on a guy beating his wife with a hammer, and so he'd shot him.

And the dispatcher was like, who is this man? And Mark said, I don't know. Soon, police arrived on the scene, and one of the detectives, Detective Charlie Cox, went over to the mystery man who lay on the floor dying, and he pulled out the guy's wallet because he was low on cash, but also because he wanted to check the guy's ID. Yeah, he was trying to make sure it was Roger. And sure enough, the man who'd brutally beaten Donna was Roger Harrington,

the same man who'd driven her from the airport. Donna didn't survive, and neither did Roger. Investigators asked Mark to stay back in the master bedroom as they worked, but it was hard. He kept asking them, who did this? Who was that man? But they wouldn't tell him. But Mark wasn't stupid. So finally, he looked Detective Cox in the eyes and said, is the guy Roger? And the detective said yes.

So Detective Cox actually knew Roger Harrington because the detective owned a trailer park and Roger and his wife rented a place from him and the detective was constantly having to go over there and break up domestic disputes. So it all kind of... It wasn't Dom, though. It wasn't Roger. Oh, excuse me. Dom was the asshole. So, you know, this all kind of made sense in a really sad, fucked up way.

Roger had been angry about being suspended from his job, and he'd come over to the Winger home and he'd taken it out on Donna. It looked like maybe he'd gone over there with a level head and then lost his cool. They found Roger's travel mug full of coffee on the Winger's kitchen table and his pack of cigarettes. And there were no signs of forced entry. So obviously Donna had opened the door to let him in. Brandy's making faces. She is making faces.

I'm going to pretend that I don't know what happens here. I'm also going to pretend that I didn't just hit the whole mic. Great. I'm going to say the thing I said the first time. No fucking way does Donna let him in the house. She is

scared of him. Never underestimate the politeness of women. Especially with Mark home. She looks out the peephole, sees Roger on the front porch. She fucking calls Mark or she calls the police. She does not open the door for him. I just don't believe it.

Okay. I just don't. door for him. I just don't believe it. Okay. I just don't. So maybe he'd come over to talk and things got heated and Mark spotted the hammer on the living room coffee table and he used that to beat Donna to death. Roger's car was parked right outside the Winger home. It was parked the wrong way on the street and it didn't quite fit in in the neighborhood. It wasn't a particularly nice car, and it was filled with trash and packs of cigarettes and dust, and it had maroon cloth seats, and it looked like it smelled terrible. And on the passenger seat, they found a bank slip, and on the back, Roger had written Mark Winger's name, the home address, and 430.

To detectives, this was an open and shut case. What had happened was crystal clear. And the motive for the crime was literally hanging on the Winger's refrigerator door. That was where Donna's two-page handwritten note about Rogers' erratic behavior during the drive hung. So it was a clear case of self-defense. Within two days, they closed the case. But it was such a sad story. Yeah.

And now Mark had a little baby to care for by himself. So Donna's family began flying in, taking turns, helping out with Bailey. And during those trips, Mark was so quiet. He drank a lot, went to bars, and he watched Pulp Fiction, which is a movie I've seen dozens of times. I can't believe you've never seen Pulp Fiction. I've seen it. You have not. Uma Thurman.

Great. Yes, she is in it. John Travolta.iction. I've seen it. You have not. Uma Thurman. Great. Yes, she is in it. John Travolta. Again, yes, in it. Samuel L. Jackson. Wonderful. You can name the cast. Name something that happens in it. They do the stabby stab in that woman's heart.

They sure do. Oh, I just. You've never seen it. They're in the diner. What happens in the diner? Royale with cheese. That does not happen in the diner. That happens in the fucking car.

Wow. Yeah. Don't you think I've got enough here to convince a jury that I've seen the film? No. Yes, I do. No, you've never seen it. It really is a good movie. I've seen it.

I've enjoyed it. You have not. Violent, though, huh It really is a good movie. I've seen it. I've enjoyed it. You have not. Violent, though, huh? It's a violent movie. So it struck Donna's family as weird that Mark wanted to watch such a violent movie that I've definitely seen before. But we all grieve in different ways. I don't think that's that weird.

I don't think it's weird at all. It was funny. It was a really popular movie at the time. It was super popular. And I think a lot of people was like anxiety relaxed to true crime stories, which that doesn't really make a lot of sense. Yes, exactly. But we do it.

Yeah. So there you have it. There you have it. That's right. Ira, if that is your real name. Who's ever heard of someone named Ira? Not someone from Kansas. But, you know, they decided it wasn't their place to judge.

Plus, at that point, all Donna's mom, Sarah Jane, wanted to do was to maintain a good relationship with Mark. She wanted to stay in her granddaughter's life. And she knew that in order to do that, she'd have to keep a good relationship with him. So let's fast forward to December of 1995. By this point, Mark really needed full-time help with the baby. So with encouragement from Donna's family, he hired a live-in nanny. A beautiful, tall, young nanny. Cool. Her name was Rebecca Simic. And I mean, she was gorgeous. She had long, beautiful curly hair. She was so sweet, super cute, heart of gold. What color was her hair? I'm picturing her as a redhead. Super cute. Heart of gold. What color was her hair?

I'm picturing her as a redhead. No, she's kind of like a dirty blonde. Okay. All right. She'd heard about what happened at the Winger home, and she felt awful. Rebecca couldn't believe what little Bailey had been through in her short life, and all she wanted to do was help. Soon, she fell in love with Bailey. She took excellent care of her and came to think of Bailey as her own child. And it was great because everyone was so welcoming. Mark told Rebecca that she was

like an angel, and Donna's family saw how good she was with Bailey, and they were grateful. The only person who wasn't super grateful was Donna's best friend, Deanne. Deanne and Donna had worked together at the hospital, and they'd been super tight. And it seemed like Deanne resented the role that Rebecca was playing now. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. But you know, oh well, it's natural. Sometimes things get a little weird. Speaking of weird, they were literally living in a crime scene. Yeah. Yeah, so sometimes Rebecca would be on the floor with the baby and wonder, is this where the bodies were?

Oh gosh. It was all so upsetting for everyone, in particular Mark. He kept thinking about Roger Harrington. How had a guy like that been hired to be a driver? Surely the company that employed him shared some of the blame for what happened. Obviously. So Mark decided to sue Boot Heel Area Rapid Transportation Incorporated, a.k.a. BART, for wrongful death. And everybody, that's a transportation company, and I know that's a tough concept,

so it's like Uber, but it's not. What a dick. Has anyone heard of a taxi? So the lawsuit was ongoing, and in the meantime, right around that time that Mark hired Rebecca, he called up Detective Charlie Cox and asked if he could get his gun back. And the detective said, sure.

What? I mean, I get it. The case was closed. Whatever. Yeah. All right. Fine. I don't like it.

Why don't you like it? Is it because it's covered in sour cream? Yes. It's got sour cream and guacamole all over it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. So, you know, he shows up at the station to get his gun.

But while he was there, Mark was like, so are you interviewing anyone about the case? You doing any work on it? And the detective was like, no, that case is closed. You're the hero. Yeah. What a weird fucking thing to say. Yeah. So this did not set well with the detective.

He was like, people don't come back and check on closed cases. It just doesn't happen. But oh, well, I'm sure it's fine. Great. Nobody worry about that at all. Not a red flag. No. By the way, in a move that will surprise no one, but especially not you because you just heard this story.

Things were getting a little steamy between Mark and Rebecca. Shocking. He loved her. She was an angel. And she was smitten with him. They were banging. Very good. They started having sex, and Mark had told her that he couldn't have children.

So imagine her surprise when she got pregnant. That would be very surprising. Yeah, that would be pretty upsetting. Yeah. Rebecca was stunned, and Mark was thrilled. Yeah, because he wanted a really big family. A huge family. He immediately started talking to her about getting married and having more kids.

But Rebecca was a little worried about how quickly they were moving. She asked him, are you sure you're ready for that? And he said, hey, you know, I had a good marriage. And when you have a good marriage, you just want that back again. You want another good marriage. You know how it is. It's like you had a Fanta and then you want a Fanta. Don't you want a Fanta?

Uh-huh. Good marriage is just like Fanta. That's super weird. It's a really weird explanation. So why do you think people, like, when a marriage ends, like from a death, a lot of people move on very quickly? I think it's because they want companionship. Sure. But isn't that kind of what he's saying?

I mean, it kind of is, I guess. And I'm sure that he's wishing, he's wanting to legitimize their relationship by marrying. I think that's more what it's about. Okay. Because, yeah, now he's just gotten his nanny pregnant shortly after his wife died. Mm-hmm. Which doesn't look great. No. But he also wants a really big family. Yeah.

Gotta marry. Yeah. So, Rebecca was still hesitant, but Mark was willing to do anything for her. He started going to church with her and talked about raising their children in a Christian home. Which was super strange because... Because he's Jewish. Yes, yes. So, Mark's rabbi was a guy named Mike Datz.

And Rabbi Mike was super surprised to hear this. And he said to Mark, why are you changing your faith? And Mark said, Judaism is just too difficult and unforgiving. And the rabbi said, Mark, I don't know what you're talking about. What do you need forgiveness for? And Mark put his hands in his pockets and looked up and shrugged and said, oh, nothing. And he looked as innocent and adorable and creepy as a Precious Moments figurine. I hate those things.

You love them. I do not. Getting you 12ents figurine. I hate those things. You love them. I do not. Getting you 12 for your birthday. No, thank you. It's not an optional thing. They will go in a display case next to your Harry Potter Lego sets. I proudly display those. There will be no Precious Moments, though.

I will put a Precious Moments baby in a tower. No. It will be incorporated into it. You're going to put it in Hogwarts? I sure will. Wow. It'll be a Hufflepuff or whatever. That is one of the houses.

Very good. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I know a lot of things. You ready for something super surprising? Mm-hmm. A little more than a year after Donna was murdered, Mark and Rebecca took a trip to Maui, where they eloped. Pictures, I gotta say, were beautiful.

You know, I love to shit on stuff. Can't shit on this. Rebecca looked great. They both looked happy. The floral arrangements on point. But Rebecca's family was stunned because they had no idea she was going to get married. Yeah. And Donna's family was stunned because they had no idea she was going to get married. Yeah. And Donna's family was stunned too.

It seemed like Donna had been replaced and so quickly. But you know what they say. Oobla dee oobla da. Oh. Oh. Life goes on. Oh no. That's what they say is it brandy are you losing steam here no i'm doing

great i do have this one leaky eye though you are getting a little emotional in one eye one eye is feeling very emotional about this case uh-huh you do your eyes get watery late at night? My eyes get watery every night. Really? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, they don't feel dry so maybe they... They just get real lubed up. Real lubed up. Could be the KY. They say you're not supposed to squirt

that in your eyes, but I say I live by my own rules. That's right. You got the K-Y-N and the preparation H under. And the olive oil all over your face. Just like Jennifer Lopez, who is dating Ben Affleck again. Seems like a mistake. I agree.

Seems like a trip down memory lane. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like fun and flirty for like five minutes. And then she's going to be like, oh, right. There's a reason why this ended. Yeah. J-Lo, if you're listening and we know you are. We know you're a big fan. These are our opinions.

Yeah. Also, there's this really shitty thing that's going on like online right now where people are comparing pictures of Jennifer Garner to Jennifer Lopez. No. And I think that's fucking terrible. No, that's awful. Yeah. Why are people doing that? Yeah.

It's terrible. People are gross. People are gross. Yeah. And horrible to women. Yeah. And horrible to women. Kind of a theme in our cases, too. Yeah, yep.

That really is so obnoxious. Yes, it's horrible. Where are you seeing this? I saw a whole BuzzFeed article about, like, here's the shitty thing people are doing. Don't legitimize it, BuzzFeed. Yeah. Stop it. Yeah. Anyway, that's my it, BuzzFeed. Yeah. Stop it. Yeah. Anyway, that's my advice to BuzzFeed.

Mm-hmm. Also big fans. Full disclosure, it may not have been a BuzzFeed article, but it was a BuzzFeed-like article. I'm afraid now that I'm blaming BuzzFeed. It had the vibe of a BuzzFeed listicle. All right. Yep. So, later that year, Mark sold the house where his late wife had been murdered and where he'd killed the murderer.

And he and Rebecca and Bailey all moved out to a beautiful place out in the country. And I'm telling you, it was gorgeous. I'm sure it was beautiful. Yeah, it was a big. Just like their perfect new family. Yeah. It was a big, white, classic two-story house with a pond

and plenty of greenery. It was idyllic. They were living the good life. It was tough for Donna's family. They wanted him to be happy and they wanted to keep a relationship with Bailey. But Mark was getting all weird. He didn't like it

when Donna's mom, Sarah Jane, would see Bailey and get emotional. He also got upset one time because Sarah Jane was wearing a necklace with Donna's face on it. And Bailey was touching it, and so she put the necklace on Bailey. And Mark was like, would you take that off of her? It makes me feel bad. Yeah, that's fucking weird. Yeah, why would you do that? Yeah.

Let's kick the weirdness up a notch, shall we? Let's. One day, he sent Sarah Jane a letter saying that he was no longer allowing Bailey to call her grandma. And she was devastated. She said, please let her call me grandma. But he refused. So. That's such a But he refused. So.

That's such a weird fucking thing. Yeah. And the balls. Yeah. Why do you care if she calls her grandma? Yeah. Yeah. Cut that because that kind of ruins part of the story.

Sorry. Yeah. Cut that out. Sorry. Cut it, Patty. Cut it out, Patty. I mean, that makes it sound like you think Patty did something wrong. Patty, you do it great.

Thank you. Patty, you made me say that wrong thing just then. That was on you. So, you know, Mark was maybe a bit of a dick, but there's no law against being a dick, and that's why you roam the streets today, Brandi. So rude! And so, years passed. It had been

three years since Donna was murdered, and Mark wasn't feeling too good. So Rebecca and Mark went to the ER, and wouldn't you know it, they ran into Donna's old best friend, Deanne. And Deanne just, like, stared daggers at them the whole time. And it was super fucking weird

and it made them both very uncomfortable. But, you know, Mark and Rebecca just kept doing their own thing. They had more kids. They lived in their wonderful house. They lived their wonderful lives. But you know who wasn't living a wonderful life? Deanne

Schultz. Deanne had been consumed by guilt for years. At this point, I'm going to go ahead and say that this was the one correct prediction I had during this entire thing. It was a victorious moment for you. Why don't you go ahead

and tell them? Because she had been having an affair with Mark. Brandy. Well done. Yeah, so in February of 1999, she decided to come clean. So she met with police and told them her story. She said that before Donna was murdered, Brandy Egan found out that she'd been having an affair with Mark. And I threatened to tell everyone.

And she's like, you're just a little kid. So it was complicated because she was married and obviously so was Mark. But, you know, they were just having a blast cheating on their spouses together. Cool. She was also best friends. Yeah. I mean, boy, it doesn't get better than this. So a whole lot of shit bags in this episode.

Mm-hmm. At some point, she says that Mark said to her, it would be easier for us to be together if Donna just died. All you'd have to do is come in and find the body. And Deanne was like, no thanks. But then Donna had that weird, terrible drive home from the airport and Mark spotted an opportunity. He told Deanne, I've got to get that driver in my house. She said that on the day of the murder, he called her and said, will you love me no matter what? Or, now hear me out here.

Okay. Or he could file for divorce. Okay, here's the problem with that. When you file for divorce, you have to split your assets. When your spouse dies, you get life insurance and everyone feels sorry for you. And you just sit around watching Pulp Fiction while your in-laws

take care of your baby. So see, divorce... I've never been more wrong. Not the solution. I would say the only time you've been more wrong is that Greyhound bus argument. So, you know, he says, will you love me no matter what? And she said, yes, I would. Mark and Deanne kept having their affair until about six months after the murder.

And then Rebecca came into his life and the affair ended. And Mark lived his best life and Deanne didn't. She'd attempted suicide multiple times. She was just a mess. She had so many regrets and so much guilt. And so investigators heard all this and they were like, hot damn. So they skedaddled down to all this, and they were like, hot damn. So they skedaddled down to the evidence room, and they were like, yeah, we'd like to, you know, actually look at the evidence critically this time, please.

And the person in charge of the evidence was like, well, good luck, because the evidence isn't here. We released it to Mark Winger's attorney because they needed it for the civil suit against the transportation company. And the guys were like, what's a transportation company? Such a dick! They were genuinely confused. So, you know, they hear this, that the

evidence is nowhere, and they promptly shat their pants, but eventually they got the evidence back and fresh pairs of trousers for everyone. All around. On the house. Yeah. And then they looked at the evidence again and they were like, hmm, maybe it doesn't make sense that Roger took his coffee and cigarettes to go commit a murder. You fucking think?

Maybe it doesn't make sense that there were no signs of forced entry. Right. Maybe it doesn't make sense that Roger used a murder weapon that was already at the scene when you consider the fact that he had a knife and a tire iron in his car. But the piece of evidence that really blew this thing wide open was a photo. Or rather, three photos. You said that like the owl in the Tootsie Roll

Pop commercial. I looked at this script and I was like, I could say it like the owl in the Tootsie Roll Pop commercial. A one, a two, a three. A three. A two, a three.

What a bunch of weirdos. We're so fucking weird. So turns out on that day, one of the officers just happened to have a Polaroid camera in his squad car. And so he takes it out. He takes three pictures of the crime scene. And when the officers in present day looked at those photos, they realized that Roger and Donna's bodies were lying in a way that didn't match Mark's story. Donna and Roger were both lying in the same direction. And Donna was lying face down. I think this is unbelievable that they didn't, like, catch that.

Yeah, it's pretty unimpressive, isn't it? Yeah. So. It seems pretty major, like the positioning of the bodies. Don't you at least say, like, hey, does this look kind of like what he said? Yeah. You'd think they'd be just like, you know, like on a basic checklist. Right.

So he had said that he had cradled Donna. And I mean, he obviously hadn't if she was face down. He'd also said that Roger had been over Donna when Mark shot him and Roger fell back. So that would mean that they were facing opposite directions. But of course they weren't. Yeah. No, it's not great. Yeah.

Hmm. Fast forward to 1999. I feel like I have to tell the people that I was blown away by this revelation. You did. On take one of this episode. My jaw hit the fucking floor. It's true. It's true. You did. On take one of this episode. My jaw hit the fucking floor. It's true.

It's true. And her tongue rolled out like a cartoon. It was a whole thing. So at this point, Mark's civil suit is now still underway. And it's not going quite how he'd imagined it. See, the transportation company, which is kind of like Uber, had hired a blood spatter expert. And the expert was like, this crime scene doesn't match Mark's story at all. So the transportation company was like, well, this is certainly rich. Hey, how about this, Mark Winger?

Maybe you're the murderer. And how dare you sue us? And so the local newspaper did a story about this and everyone was like, yikes. And Mark was like, oh, excuse me. You know what? I'm going to go ahead and dismiss my civil suit. I'm not mad at you guys anymore. Let's just forget this happened.

I'm cool. You guys are cool. Everybody's cool. Let's just go to the mug and munch. Not me, huh? Okay, by the way, I said this before. I want to say this again. 2020 didn't say this, but I kind of got the vibe from other articles on newspapers.com and stuff that perhaps this criminal investigation was aided quite a bit by this civil suit.

Yeah. Because this transportation company actually dug into this because their money was at stake. And so they were the ones who actually investigated this shit and then the cops were like oh shit better actually do our jobs now. It's really upsetting. This fucking greedy little beaver would have gotten away with it if he hadn't

Greedy little beaver? I've never heard someone call them beavers. I think that's a thing people say. Like he would have gotten away with this murder if he wouldn't have filed the civil suit. Absolutely. Murders! Yeah. Plural!

Yeah. Greedy little beaver. I've never seen a more greedy beaver in my day. Than Mark Winger. And all I do is look at bea in my day. Than Mark Winger. And all I do is look at beavers all day. What are you, an esthetician? Look how happy you are. You know, I think that's why it took me off guard,

because I was like, really? We're going to call a man an angry little beaver? It seems more like a woman. No? Greedy, not angry. Gre angry little beaver? It seems more like a woman. No? Greedy. Not angry. Greedy little beaver. Oh, excuse me.

Angry little beaver is after a wax. That's right. Greedy little beaver. Brandy just did an impression of an angry vagina. That's right. It was quite good. It was. I was convinced.

All right, anyway. So, you know, he's like, forget about the civil suit. Goodbye's right. It was quite good. I was convinced. Alright, anyway. So, you know, he's like, forget about the civil suit, goodbye. So then, 2001 rolls around, and by this point, Rebecca and Mark had three kids in addition to Bailey. Which is four kids

total. That's right. For all you math wizzes. There are all these rumors about Mark, but so far no arrest. But then the grand jury met and they were like, oh yeah, this guy's a piece of shit. And so they indicted Mark. And so investigators showed up at Mark's work. And it pains me to tell you that on this episode of 2020, they said they made entry into the building.

They sound like geniuses. And they sound super hot. Do they? Yeah. Really? Much like me. Okay. They got in the building, called out his name, and he was like, I'm in here.

And then they arrested him. And they called him a greedy little beaver as they cuffed him. That's right. We've got you now, you greedy little beaver. And that is how, nearly seven years after Donna and Roger's deaths, Mark Winger finally went on trial for their murders. Oof. About damn time.

So it's May 2002, and the trial's underway. And in opening statements, state's attorney John Schmidt said, the defendant lied. The evidence will indicate that the defendant lured Roger Harrington to his house. John Schmidt, huh? Yeah. What about him? What's his middle name?

Jacob Jingleheimer? Oh my god. Oh my god. Everyone, she's shaking the table. She's laughing so hard. His name is my name too. Whenever we go up, the people always shout. There goes John Jacob Jekyll, Homer Schmidt. You're welcome, everyone. That's right.

You requested more singing, and we are delivering. So the prosecution did their best to establish that Roger had shown up at the Winger house that day for a meeting not to commit murder. Their evidence supporting that was the coffee mug, the cigarettes, the weapons that were still in the car, the lack of forced entry. I think the time written on that slip of paper really says it. You're not going to be like, and I'm going to do this at this time and I'm going to write the time down. Yeah, I know. at this time and I'm going to write the time down. Yeah, I know.

The prosecution contended that Mark had lured Roger to the home, brought him in, shot him, and that Donna was in the master bedroom when that occurred. And when she heard the gunshot, she put Bailey on the bed and came running. And when she got there, Mark beat her to death with a hammer and called police. Holy shit.

So at trial, they played the 911 call. And in it, Mark tells his story and says that he shot the intruder and you can hear Roger moaning in the background. And all of a sudden, Mark says, I hear my baby crying. I'll call you back. But you can't hear Bailey crying. You can only hear Roger moaning. So the prosecution theorized that that's when Mark shot Roger a second time because in that initial phone call, he just said, I shot him in the head. Yeah. So the idea is he basically realized that he'd called 911 too soon and decided to kill Roger before the police could show up.

In case you were really stupid and hadn't put that together. Thank you for really spelling that out for us. Really great job. And what is a screen door? We don't know because it's not been explained to us. Maybe one day someone will patiently take minutes of our lives to tell us what a screen door is. So Deanne Schultz was a key witness for the prosecution,

and she got immunity in exchange for her testimony. And she said that that day that they saw each other in the ER, she asked Mark, how do you live with yourself? And he said that he'd found Jesus Christ and that he was forgiven. And he warned her that if she told anyone, quote, our gooses will be cooked. To which I can only pray that she replied, the plural of goose is geese. You dumbass. The defense, which was led by Thomas Breen, argued that Deanne was a woman scorned.

What's his middle name? Ira. Which is not a real name, if you ask me. I've been all around Johnson County. I haven't met a single Ira. Or a Jamalal for that matter it can't be that i'm in a bubble i've met Jamal than I have an IRA. Oh, right.

So the defense was like, she's attempted suicide four times. She's had electroshock therapy. I guess, therefore, we can't listen to her at all. Yeah, okay. They also argued that the investigators had gotten it right the first time. Roger had done this. He had been mentally ill. He had this mask that he worshipped, which I didn't really explain that well the first time,

and here I am not explaining it well again. Okay, so Roger's family said that this Dom character, you know, oh, he didn't really believe in demons. He didn't really think he had a demon in his head. He just had this mask that he called Dom. And he knew it was just silliness or whatever. Anyway, I think here's my bottom line, my final thoughts on Roger. I think he was a weird guy. Not a murderer. Not a murderer.

Absolutely. Okay, anyway. Everything occurred exactly how Mark said. And as for those Polaroids, well, perhaps the paramedics had moved the bodies. No! Yeah, you know, just that fun thing where you... They flew bodies about? Oh, yeah.

No. The jury deliberated for 13 hours and found him guilty. Donna's mom, Sarah Jane, turned around and hugged Roger's parents. She felt horrible for how they'd buried their son with the whole world thinking he was a murderer. For what it's worth, Detective Cox said he felt horrible, too, for running Roger Harrington's name into the ground. A few months later, Mark Winger was sentenced to life in prison with no parole. This was all devastating for Rebecca.

She'd believed in her husband's innocence. And now, with him in prison for life, she had to figure out how she was going to raise four kids on her own, because three plus one is four. That's innocence. And now with him in prison for life, she had to figure out how she was going to raise four kids on her own because three plus one is four. That's right. Pretty quickly, the house went into foreclosure. She filed for bankruptcy. She had to find a job after years of being a stay-at-home mom. Meanwhile, Mark maintained his innocence. He appealed his sentence And when that didn't work out He realized that when one door closes Another door opens

What a bag of dicks Oh, you don't like opportunities? You don't like optimism? Is that it? Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying The glass is half empty, isn't it, Brandy? No. Bet you wear all black all the time.

I bet Dom's talking to me right now. Here's the thing. Mark had converted to Christianity supposedly for the forgiveness, but he really didn't like to give out forgiveness. What? Means more than say it's sorry. forgiveness, but he really didn't like to give out forgiveness. What's that? It means more than say it's sorry. What is that song? That is a terrible song.

It is a terrible song. That's the joke. It is a terrible song from the movie Just Friends starring Ryan Reynolds and Anna Faris. I wonder what drew you to that movie. She is a pop star, and that is her hit song. Continue. You know my favorite fake song from a movie? What?

Any of the Forgetting Sarah Marshall. What was it? Out in Snow? Uh-huh. Yeah. Inside of you. Inside of you. Inside of you.

I want to be how I long to be inside of you. What was the other one that was like sodomize hypocrisy? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, Mark's all mad, but he's like figuring things out. You know, he's working on himself, Brandy.

But, you know, he was still pretty pissed at D.N. Schultz for admitting to their affair and, you know, cooking his goose. As it were. He was really pissed at his old friend, Jeffrey Gelman. Fucking who? Exactly. So Mark and Jeffrey had been childhood friends, and Jeffrey had gone on and made just a shit ton of money as a real estate developer. So when Mark had been arrested for double murder and his bail had been set at $1 million,

he naturally expected that his childhood friend would post bail for him. But Jeffrey didn't because Jeffrey sucks. That is stupid. That Jeffrey didn't post bail? No. That fucking Mark Winger would expect Jeffrey to post bail. Well, I think we all want a double murderer out on the streets, right? No!

One million dollars is a small price to pay to get a double murderer out on the streets. So Mark came up with a brilliant plan. And this is my favorite part of this whole story. He reached out to another inmate named Terry Hubble, and he told Terry about a plan that he needed help carrying out. Are you ready

to hear the plan for a second time in like two hours? I cannot wait. Here we go. He wanted to have Jeffrey Gellman, along with his wife and two children, kidnapped and held for ransom for one1 million. You have to put your pinky in your mouth while you do that.

I know. I really missed opportunity. Then, when he got the ransom money, he would use that ransom money to pay a hitman to turn around and murder Jeffrey Gellman and Deanne Schultz. And, if there was enough money left over, he would also like Jeffrey's whole family killed, please and thank you. Also, I hope it's not too much to ask, Mark was super pissed at Donna's stepdad, Ira, because Ira kept sending him letters in prison like, oh, you suck, you're in prison, you're a turd, and Mark didn't like those letters, so pretty please, if there's enough money left over to kill Ira, go ahead and do it.

And Mark was like, look, it won't be hard to find Ira because he's the only guy in Florida by that name. It was the perfect plan. He's really trying to stretch that million bucks. I got to admire it. I'm also a discount shopper myself. So, yeah, you got to really go for the gold. That's ridiculous. Yes.

So, it'll stun you to know that he couldn't quite pull this off. Shocking. Terry heard all this and he contacted the police who contacted the FBI. And they had Terry wear a wire and record a conversation between Terry and Mark out on the prison yard. And then I think personally just because they were having fun with the situation, they had Mark tell Terry, hey, could you do me a favor and write all this down? I'm having trouble keeping track of it. So Mark, like a genius, wrote a 19-page letter explaining exactly what he wanted to do.

And you're not going to believe this. Bing, bang, boom. Poor Mark Winger found himself on trial for solicitation of murder. What a bag of dicks. The trial was pretty quick on account of the recorded conversation and the 19-page letter. But for what it's worth, Mark wants us all to know that the 19 page letter was just a fantasy. It wasn't real. But you know what? The court... Sweet, sweet fantasy baby! The court didn't quite understand the difference between fantasy and reality, and they found him guilty, and he got another 35 years added

to his sentence. But don't worry he's appealing that verdict. I mean what's the fucking point? He's already got life in prison without parole. Hey just throw the cherry on top. I love it. Okay. Alright. Seems like a waste of time but alright that's fine. I bet he lost

extra privileges. He probably did. I bet he can't have cottage cheese with his ruffles. Gross. No, I bet they force him to have cottage cheese with his ruffles. Like, okay, you can have chips, but you have to dip them in cottage cheese first. And he's like, oh, God. Also, here's a baked potato with a heaping pile of cottage cheese on top of it. Don't make me hungry.

pile of cottage cheese on top of it. Don't make me hungry. So, in the meantime, the good people in this story had tried to move forward with their lives. Rebecca changed her name and all of the kids' names back to her maiden name. None of them wanted to be associated with Mark Winger. They did a Zoom interview with him from prison, and he's just as manipulative as you can imagine. He's like, oh, it's okay. They just need to know that I'll always love them.

Fuck off. Yeah, exactly. Rebecca has also helped facilitate a relationship between Bailey and Donna's parents. They recently went down to Florida, and Sarah Jane and Ira threw a little birthday party for Bailey. It looked really sweet. Roger Harrington's family is relieved that their loved one's name has been cleared. In an effort to keep Donna's memory alive, Sarah, Jane, and Ira created Donna's Fund through womenindistress.org, and I'm going to read a

little from the website. The goal of Donna's Fund is to empower domestic violence victims to live safely and independently. Donations made to Donna's Fund is to empower domestic violence victims to live safely and independently. Donations made to Donna's Fund will help provide support for housing payments and deposits, furnishings and other related items needed to help victims of domestic violence establish safe households for themselves and their children. And we'll put a link to that in the show notes. And so that's the story of a bad driver. Or a shit bag. Yeah, I did a purposely misleading title. It misled you the first time.

It sure did. It didn't work the second time. You seemed to retain that case pretty well. It's like a steel trap up here. But yeah, this bag of dicks. So not only did he file a civil suit to get more money out of a murder he perpetrated, he also collected insurance money.

And then Illinois has a very nice like Victims of Crime Assistance Fund. And he got $25,000 for that. Yeah. Super great. Uh-huh. Wonderful. Greedy little beaver. Yeah, what a greedy little beaver.

There we go. That's the story of a greedy little beaver. That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wonderful. Greedy little beaver. Yeah, what a greedy little beaver. There we go. That's the story of a greedy little beaver. That's right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's exactly right. That was very good the second time. Yours was good the second time.

I enjoyed it. I enjoyed this. You know what? I started in a bad mood. I'm in a much better mood now. I think it was the singing. Yeah. Well, it was.

Uh-huh. It was all the singing that did it for us. That's exactly right. You know, the fastest way to spread Christmas cheer is singing loud for all to hear. Oh, my God. What is that from? It's from Elf. Elf?

Oh, okay. Yeah. I'm sorry. I thought you said Alf at first, and I was like, what? Like a Christmas episode of Elf? No. Elf. Yeah, I'm with you now.

Elf. Are you doing some with you now. Elf. Are you doing some new eyeshadow today? I am doing new eyeshadow today. It looks really good. Thank you. You look so pleased. Thanks. It looks really nice.

Thank you. What are you doing? This is not an ad, by the way. No, it's a new, it's a, Tarte was having a sale, a bunch of eyeshadows on sale for like five bucks. What, where? On Tarte was having a sale and a bunch of eyeshadows on sale for like five bucks. What? Where? On Tarte, on their website.

Oh. So I ordered four new colors, four new crease colors. I like it. And this is one of them. Close them peepers. Yeah, I like that. It's very good. Thank you.

It's a bright blue. Thank you. Brandi would never in all of her days. I would not okay so that was not an ad but you know what is an ad oh fuck we have to do another ad woo wee

that's a lot of podcasting today my dear but you know what I always say it feels like the first time. Like the very first time. Feels like the first time. Feels like the very first time.

What do you think? What do you think? I think we just, we got to do Supreme Court inductions. Really go out with a bang here. Yeah, you know, our apologies to everyone in our Discord. They asked us questions today. Many of them quite good. Quite good.

We answered a lot of them. I'm just going to throw some answers at them right now. Guacamole. Dried piece of poop. Yeah, and only the people in our Discord are going to understand. Exactly right. Shoot, what else? Fried green tomatoes Discord are going to understand. Exactly right. Shoot, what else? Fried green tomatoes.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Wait, what was mine? Water for elephants. Water for elephants. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. $20.

That's exactly right. All right. And those are your answers. That's right. That's right. those are your answers. That's right. That's right. Those are our answers. And you can figure out the questions. Kind of like Jeopardy up in here today.

All you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level. That'll get you in the Discord. And, you know, then you can ask us questions that we will answer on an episode that's not being recorded. And then we'll just do that again. Yeah, exactly. It's a perfect setup. What's a better deal than that, I ask you? But we will be reading your names and favorite cookies.

That is right. Jesse Bresner. Cookies with jam in the middle and tons of powdered sugar on top. Don't like it any better the second time. I disagree still. I don't want any jam in my cookies. I would like to jam my cookies in my house.

Oh my God. She's so proud. I know. See, we've gone so long that I'm like, you know what? Cookies sound good again. Yeah, exactly.

I really thought I was going to throw up. Same. We consumed a lot in a very short period of time and now it's, you know, we've had time to digest and settle. Thank you.

I wondered what that hand gesture was. Like an accordion. Yeah, that's right. Anyway, we're in the middle of Supreme Court. Court me. Double chocolate chip. Whitney Cater. No cookies.

Salty snacks for life. Wrong. Teresa Anderson. Chocolate chip. Chewy, not crunchy. I almost did it again. I know. You almost stepped on Teresa's toes.

Sammy Jo. Cranberry white chocolate chip cookies. Gigi the super hot male lady. Snickerdoodles. Anna. And Zach biscuits. Which are a delicious Australian treat. I know.

Because I smuggled them out of here, out of our Australia box that we received. Danielle and Persephone Brodka. White chocolate macadamia nut cookies. Oh, I just put together that Persephone's a baby. This is Persephone's mom in the Discord. Aww. Persephone's a cute little baby.

I'm very excited. Karen. Classic chocolate chip cookie. Just as excited about you, Karen, I promise. Karen is also a baby. Rebecca Moran. Sugar cookie. Hilary Ponko.

Homemade cinnamon rolls. That's not cookies. Again, we're going to disagree. We didn't ask for your favorite baked treat. She says here my go-to dessert lately has actually been homemade cinnamon rolls instead of cookies. Boy, who's the dick now? I'm being a huge dick. Jules Chavez.

Lofthouse cookies with the kind of Play-Doh frosting. We all know it. Exactly what that is. Kara Mueller. Girl Scout Caramel Delights, a.k.a. Samoas. Bethany Holly. McDonald's chocolate chip cookies. Okay, I went on like a 10-minute talk about this earlier.

Can you condense it at all? They're delicious. You should really try them out. They're three for a dollar. Crispy on the outside, gooey in the middle. Delicious chocolate chip cookie. Somehow you did not trim that at all. Esme Pimbrey-Smith.

Fox's Golden Crunch Cream. Still no idea what the fuck that is It sounds like just a bunch of words I know, it's just like words You just pull words out of a hat and they're like Haha, they'll believe this is a real cookie You greedy little beaver Carrie Finnegan Chocolate chip shortbread from my local bakery

Gina Runyon's. Chewy chocolate chip. Madison Reif. Thin Mints. Sarah Pacendo. Triple chocolate chalk. Elizabeth Salas. Hot and fresh chocolate chip.

Susan Allen Lee. Cold and old chocolate chip. That's not... Snickered at once. I was like, that's not what that says here at all. What is Kristen reading? I don't think anyone likes cold old chocolate chips. No, Susan likes snickerdoodles.

Lillian Nidle. I don't have a favorite cookie. This question stresses me out. Give me every cookie possible. All right, fine, we will. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Oh! Oh!

Oh! Anzac Biscuits. Oh, Anzac Biscuits is right. Thank you for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. You're trying to speed through. Please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process.

I read a bunch of stuff then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of 2020 titled The Perfect Lie, as well as articles from newspapers.com and Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of Crime Watch Daily, ChillingCrimes.com, KFBS News 12, and The Court Record.

For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com kfbs news 12 and the court record for a full list of our sources visit lgtcpodcast.com any errors are of course ours but please don't take our word for it go read their stuff that was pretty good do you want to do that again no