Let's Go To Court! - 183: Exonerations!

Episode Date: August 18, 2021

Kathy Sigman and Maria Ridulph were best friends. The little girls played together constantly, and the evening of December 3, 1957, was no exception. But that evening, a young man approached them. He seemed friendly. He offered them piggyback rides and asked them about dolls. He told them his name was Johnny, and that he wasn’t married. At one point, Kathy excused herself to get a pair of mittens. But when she came back outside, Maria was missing, and Johnny was nowhere to be found. Then Kristin tells us about a college student in Oklahoma, who woke up to a loud thump. The woman sat in bed for a while, listening for more strange sounds. When she didn’t hear any, she got up to go to the bathroom. That’s when she saw a man standing at the end of her hallway. She flipped on the lights, but the man vanished behind a corner, only to reemerge seconds later. The man sexually assaulted her, then left out the front door. Later, when the woman called police, they showed her two line-ups. Both line ups included an innocent man named Thomas Webb.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Wrong Man” by Jon Schuppe for NBC News The book “Rectify: A story of healing and redemption after wrongful conviction,” By Laura Bazelon “Wrongfully convicted man gets $175,000 for 13 years in prison,” by Jon Schuppe for NBC News “Rape suspect walks free after innocent man spends 14 years in prison,” by Dallas Franklin for kfor.com “Thomas Webb, III” entry on The National Registry of Exonerations In this episode, Brandi pulled from: "Taken: The Coldest Case Ever Solved” by Ann O’Neill, CNN “JUSTICE STORY: The coldest case, ‘The Piggyback Kidnap’” by Mara Bovsun, New York Daily News “Man cleared in 1957 slaying of Sycamore girl wins $300K settlement from Seattle. Cops there arrested him after DeKalb County reopened case.” Associated Press “Man wrongly convicted in 1957 Sycamore killing of 7-year-old declared innocent by judge” by Clifford Ward, Chicago Tribune “Murder of Maria Ridulph” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Thomas Webb.

And I'll be talking about the coldest cold case. Does it take place in Alaska? No. Sorry, that was cheesy. Ew, I know what happens. What happens? Somebody's body's in a freezer. No.

But that's a good guess. Thank you. Well, you know, a lot of bodies get stuffed into freezers, but I don't think we've ever covered one. You're right. What are the odds, huh? That's a good Google for me. It sure is. All right.

We know what we're coming up with next week. Everybody, everybody, just so you know, we got hoodies and tank tops selling on the merch store. They are flying out of here like hotcakes. That's right. Do hotcakes fly? They sure do. Okay. Just look in the sky.

It's a bird in a plane. It's a hotcake. It's a hotcake. Okay. That's a saying people say. Sweatshirts, small through 5XL. Get them while you can. Yeah, super limited quantity. Yeah. Get them while you can. Super limited quantity. We do super limited runs.

Super limited runs. I talk for a living. Anyway, that's just right off the top. Yeah, at lgtcpodcast.com. You get those at that website. And if you're a Bob Moss, which is on our patrons, when you are signed up for our Patreon, you get 10% off merch.

So here's what you do. You head on over to Patreon, sign up at the Bob Moss level, get that little special code, and then boop, ride on over to lgtcpodcast.com and fill up your merch basket. Yeah, because when you sign up for our Patreon,

you also get bonus episodes. You get monthly Zoom hangouts. Oh, my gosh. You get a sticker. You get a card. You get inducted. Yeah. And, you know, if you do sign up for that Bob Moss level, you also get your episodes ad-free and a day early.

That is right. Man. That's exactly right. You look super cute. You look like super fresh. You know what you look like? What? Okay, you look super fresh-faced. You look like a face wash ad right now. You're the sweetest person. Okay, well

everyone, Brandy just did my hair and I accidentally opened my eyes while she was rinsing my hair in the sink and I got hair dye in my eye. I mean, shut up. It's natural. So then I had to wash off all my makeup. So now I've just got like a little mascara on. You look great.

Do I just look? You look super cute. How old do I look? 22? Yeah. Yep. Oh, wow. That's a rough 22.

I just. That girl's seen some things. No, thank you. You don't look a day over 34. You did make fun of my towel turban thing. Yeah, you have like a towel wrap thing. It's called a twisty turban, I'm pretty sure. Okay.

You came down in it, and I was like, you wear this, you put your hair in this every time you wash it? And you were like, yeah, what do you do? Yeah. But I don't have curly hair, so I just squeeze the water out of mine with a regular old towel. And then comb it out. Wow. Yeah. And you also have the kind of skin that can withstand.

Sleeping in my makeup. Yeah. Anything else you'd like to brag about, Brandy? No. No? Okay. You have great hair. Thank you.

Yeah. I know. You have great hair. Thank you. I have great hair. I know. You do. I just look at it. Yeah. All right. Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus.

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Oh, very excited about your super cold case. Super cold. So cold. You'll need a parka. Okay. You've been making fun of me for how much I'm enjoying my beverage right now. Everybody, sound the alarm. This is not an ad.

This is not an ad. I'm just telling you, my mom came over and dropped off some A&W root beer, zero sugar. It's shocking there's no sugar in this. It's shocking. Legit, this is not an ad at all. It is so good. However, I do feel like I'm being a bit sabotaged because what it is is very carbonated. You're going to be belching up a storm?

I'm worried. What? Hello, Norm. Everyone, Norm just walked in. What's wrong? He's just being our audio engineer, making sure we're recording. Thank you, audio boy. The ghost of Norm enters the room.

He lives. Okay. I told you a little bit about this already. So I found this case. I found it through a New York Daily News article by Mara Morrison. Yes, who I love. Yes. And I was like, great.

Does Skip know about Mara? Don't tell them. And also, you know who I haven't talked about lately? Keith Morrison? David Krawczyk, my boy. Oh, yeah, you haven't talked about him. Okay. Apparently he's pronounced Krawczyk, but like, get the fuck out of here.

You know what? People are coming for me because I pronounced Beaufort but it's actually pronounced Beaufort. No, people aren't even saying that. Okay, in last week's episode I covered a case that some of this stuff happened in Beaufort,

Missouri, and I said I assume it's pronounced like Beaufort, South Carolina. My mistake. There's a Beaufort, North Carolina that's pronounced Beaufort. But apparently in South Carolina, they call it Beaufort. Beaufort. OK, so here's the thing. I almost said something last week because I know it's Beaufort and you were right about that.

But I could have sworn Beaufort was in North Carolina, the Beaufort that I have been to. And so I was like, oh, I must just be wrong. Huh. So I didn't say anything. You know, it's times like these when good men do nothing and stay silent. That your friend messes up on a podcast and people correct her. I hope you've learned a valuable lesson today, Brandy. Anyway, okay, so I found that article

and I was like, great, wonderful. This sounds like an awesome case. And then I was like doing some Googling and I found this enormous piece for CNN by Anne O'neill amazing but it was like okay have you ever done this where you're like researching and the piece is too big but i was like too far in at that point you were in too deep so i say all this to say this mostly all comes from this series of articles by ann o'neill for cnn and then also some from Mara Boveson for the Daily News.

But this is like, okay, this article makes a Texas Monthly article look like Cliff's Notes. Okay. Are you trying to tell us that you have had to do some trimming? I have. And you're feeling insecure? I'm going to

cover this, but there's stuff I've had to leave out because we will be here for three days. I expected you to have every single detail down. You know, I tried. I really did. But lately I find myself only listening to Kristen's stories. How dare you? I'm just sick of your dad jokes is my problem.

That's right. That's exactly. You know, there doesn't have to be one in every sentence. Wow. Oh, did we get a shitty review? Oh, shit. I wasn't even mentioning. That's from a while back.

You know, you don't have to put a joke in every sentence, ladies. That's true. It's fine. Yeah. They've missed. I put a joke in every sentence, ladies. That's true. It's fine. Yeah. They've missed. Anyway, also, I'm being sabotaged by root beer. Brandy is worried that she might burp, which we could cut very easily.

Yeah, and we just will. But last week, I nearly exploded. You did. I was afraid that I would not survive. Yeah. I mean, you're trapped in a very small room with me right now. Yeah. And we've all seen Titanic. That fills up pretty quickly.

And I've always got you chained to the radiator. That's right. And I'm not good with an ax. So have I dragged this joke out long enough? Yes, I think it's good. I think it's good. Are you ready? Ready to hear about a cold case?

There's not going to be enough room for both of us on the door. On that door. So I'm just going to take the door. Okay. And I hope you understand. I do. Thank you. Great.

All right. Goodbye. Anyway. Never let go. It was December 3rd, 1957. Thank you for this necklace, by the way. Do you remember the time you tried to force David to buy me the Heart of the Ocean necklace? We were at the Titanic Museum in Branson, Missouri.

And the Heart of the Ocean replica necklaces were a mere $14. And I tried to convince David that you wanted one. And he did not believe me, and I was so upset. Damn it. You could also buy shot glasses that had icebergs on them. And necklaces. I'm sorry, bracelets that said

Survivor. Which seemed in poor taste. Seemed totally inappropriate. Anyway. Go on. Okay. It was December 3rd, 1957, and Maria Riddleff and Kathy Sigmund were having a great day.

They were on their way to school. They always walked to school together. And there was just a smell in the air you mean a scent that was a smell you smell the scent it was the scent of snow oh okay they just knew it was gonna snow that day and so they went to school did their classes waited for snow that day. And so they went to school, did their classes, waited for snow. No snow by the time they got out of school. They went home to Maria's house. They cut out paper snowflakes. They had a great time. And just as it was time for Kathy to go home for dinner, the flurries began to fall. And Kathy said to Maria, I'm going to ask my mom if we can go outside and play after

dinner. And so Kathy went home and Maria sat down for dinner with her family and they had her favorite disgusting dinner. What is it? It was rabbit, carrots, potatoes and milk. OK. Have you ever had rabbit? No, I don't want to eat rabbit. Okay.

No one's forcing you for it, E. No, thank you. She ate two rabbit legs. Boy, that is kind of sad, isn't it? Yeah, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And she was so full from that that she barely touched her vegetables. And then she asked her mom if she could please, please go outside and play in the snow. It was the first snow of the season, and the flurries had really started to pick up.

It was really a full-on snow by this point. And then Kathy called. She said, I can go outside tonight. Can you? And so the two girls met outside. They lived like just a couple doors down from each other. And they started playing their favorite game out in the freshly falling snow. I'm sorry.

Have you said where this takes place? I have not. But I can tell you. Please do. Sycamore, Illinois. The town of about 7,000 at this time in 1957. So they started playing their favorite game, duck the cars. Well, that sounds dangerous.

It sounds super dangerous. Okay, so from what I could tell was basically they were running back and forth between a tree and a street light. And like anytime an oncoming car would like, it's not like they would run out in front of the car. They would just try and like duck the headlights as the car was like turning on to the street. What do you mean duck the headlights? Like not get caught in the light of the headlights as it came across. They weren't like in the street as far as I could tell. Still sounds a little.

Yeah, sounds a little questionable. All right. Anyway, so they're, I don't know, jumping in and out of the headlights. Playing that game we've all played. Yes. When a handsome young man approached him. He had blonde hair and he swept it back in a duck tail. Which is, you know, when the two sides

are combed back. I know exactly. That 50s look. Yes. And then he had like the little curl that came down on the front. Man, men used to really work on their hair. They really did. You gave Norm an excellent haircut a couple weeks ago. Thank you. Like literally every time we've

met up with anyone who has received a compliment, his one comment, well, I have to put product in it. How terrible that must be for you. My eye twitches

because it's like, wow, if all I did was put product in my hair, I don't think I'd be complaining. That's a fun story about a dead man. So this handsome stranger approaches the two young girls. They're seven and eight. Kathy's eight.

Maria's seven. And says something to the effect of, hi, little girls. Are you having fun? of, hi little girls. Are you having fun? And Kathy remembered that he had kind of a narrow face, what she described as a thin voice, which I don't really know what that means, and then big teeth. But that he was handsome and had like a nice hairstyle and he seemed nice. And he asked if the girls wanted piggyback rides oh my god

he told them that his name was johnny and that he was 24 and that he wasn't married okay which that seems like a weird thing to mention to seven-year-old girls okay whatever oh god and then he asked them if they liked dollies and both the girls nodded why don't you come back to my house where i have dolls so right that's kind of where i assumed that was going but at some point he convinces maria to go for a piggyback ride and he runs up and down the street with her on his back and then he comes back and maria because he had mentioned dolls as soon as she gets off his back she's like i'm gonna run home real quick and get a doll and so she does she runs home just just like 20 feet up the road right from where they're at runs inside her mom and dad are inside her mom's reading the paper her dad's

watching something on tv and she grabs like her favorite doll from right, like, inside the door. And her mom's like, why don't you not take that one out? Why don't you take one of your old rubber dolls out? Which apparently is a 50s thing. I don't know what a rubber doll is. Okay. And she's like, just because it's snowing out, why don't you do that? And so she does.

And when she comes back outside, Kathy was standing on the sidewalk where she'd left them with Johnny. And as Maria walked up, Kathy had turned Johnny down for a piggyback ride of her own. But as Maria came back, she felt more comfortable, I guess. And she was like, I'm going to go in and get my mittens and then I'll go for a piggyback ride. and then I'll go for a piggyback ride. And so Kathy ran to her house to get her mittens. Only when she came back, Maria and Johnny were gone. Kathy ran all up and down their neighborhood street,

which was Archie Place is the name of their street, calling out Maria's name. It was getting later. it was getting darker, and there was no sign of Maria or this mystery man, Johnny. So Kathy was like, maybe she went inside, maybe Johnny left. And so Maria went inside. And so she ran up to the Ridolph's house and knocked on the door. And when she knocked on the door, Chuck, Maria's older brother, answered and said, I can't find Maria. Is Maria here? And he's like, no, she's playing outside. And she's like, she's not outside.

I can't find her. And so Chuck, Maria's older brother, and he had a friend that was there with him named Randy. Chuck and Randy went out in the neighborhood with Kathy and started looking up and down the street looking for Maria. They walked up to the school to see if she'd made it up just like around the corner. But she was nowhere to be found. At one point, a police car drove by them. And it was like when they saw the police car that they were like, oh, my gosh, we should have flagged him down. Like, we probably need to like get a parent involved here. And so they went back home and Kathy went in with Chuck and Randy and sat down with Francis, Maria's mom, and said, you know, we were outside playing.

This man came up. He was very nice. His name was Johnny. And he took Maria for a piggyback ride. And she just gives him all the details. And Frances is very concerned at this point. And so she calls Kathy's mother. They kind of talk back and forth on the phone for a few minutes to see if anybody spotted her.

And then they're like, okay, we should probably get out in the neighborhood and search for her. At this point, Frances was like, I think we should just call the police. But Maria's father wasn't ready to do that. So Maria kind of had a tendency

to wander off. About a year earlier, she had ended up like several blocks away. Just like after she'd wandered off while playing, they'd actually gotten a search party together and everything. And they found her. And so Maria's father was like, no, we're not going to call the police at this point. But Francis was like, no, it's dark out.

Kathy's already looked for her. I'm not waiting for her to just find. There was a third party involved. Exactly. looked for her. I'm not waiting for her to just find. Well, and they knew the last person. Yeah, there was a third party involved. Exactly. And so Francis was like, no, we're going to the police station. And so they, at 8 o'clock that evening, drove to the police station while Chuck and his friend kind of kept wandering about the neighborhood.

But, I mean, Chuck was like 11, so he didn't really... I mean, gosh. Yeah. The 50s were a different time, weren't they? I know! So he kind of walked along the neighborhood. He walked down a couple driveways, through a garden, out into a field. It sounds like in the 50s, 11 was

like... You're an adult, basically. Yeah, it is. As he was circling the neighborhood, he actually found something laying in an alley. It was Maria's doll. So by that point, he's convinced that, like, something bad has happened. So is Francis. And they've already got the police involved. So shortly after the Ridolphs made it to the police, they organized a search party.

And so a group of men went and knocked on the door of Ralph and Eileen Tessier. They lived like two streets over, I think. And Ralph ran the hardware store in town. So they went over to the Tessier's house because they wanted Ralph to go open up the hardware store so they could get lanterns and flashlights so that they could do a search in the dark. When Ralph heard what they were wanting, he was like, absolutely, let's go. The Tessier family was a big family. Eileen had an older son. was a big family. Eileen had an older son. Eileen had actually been born in Ireland and she had a son with her first husband in Ireland. Her husband had died in the war and she had actually met Ralph

while he was in the war and they'd married and come back to the United States together. And her older son, John, had come with them and then they had gone on to have six children together. So the Tessier family was huge. And they were living in a pretty small house. They were really kind of packed in there. So when they heard this story of this missing girl, and it was like a girl that pretty much everybody was familiar with in the neighborhood. This is a small town. Yeah. You know, everybody kind of knows everybody.

And so did people know Johnny? No. So neither. So Kathy said she had never seen Johnny before. Okay. And no. So neither. So Kathy said she had never seen Johnny before. OK. And obviously, Kathy was the only one at this point who saw him and could describe him. And Kathy said she'd never seen him before. So Eileen is like, OK, I'm going to go to the armory. We're setting up like a like a home base there.

We're going to make sandwiches for the searchers. Ralph, you go to the hardware store. You get that opened up so people can get lanterns and flashlights and whatever. And then to their young children, they're like, you all stay here. The oldest, besides John, who was not home at the time, the next oldest was like 12 or 14. So an adult. Yeah. And they're like, you're in charge.

But there was like, they also had a baby. Like they ranged in age. So they were like, you're in charge. Keep everybody safe. And everybody's like all riled up at this time. There's like, could be like a crazy kidnapper on the loose. And so they locked the door, which is something they had never done before. So much so that the back door didn't lock.

They had to wedge it, like wedge something up against it after the parents left. And then they were told to like sit up in the kitchen and wait for their parents to come back because they'd have to let them in. Yeah. And so the kids all just sat there huddled in the kitchen with no real idea of what was going on. It was just like a very chaotic thing. And their parents were gone and somebody was missing. And where's our brother John? He's not here. This search would go on for

days. There were no signs of Maria outside of finding her doll. And so police just started knocking on doors. They started questioning everybody in town about what they saw. And one of the doors that they came upon was the Tessier house. Somebody had said, you know, it had gotten out by this point that Kathy had said the man that had come up to them had said his name was Johnny. And people knew that the Tessiers had an older son named John. And so someone had suggested maybe go talk to them. So in the first initial days of this search, they ended up at the Tessier house to just, you know, touch base, find out if Eileen knew anything, if she knew where her son was that night, just to rule things out. And Eileen was

like, oh, yeah, John was home the whole night. He was here with the kids while we set up the search headquarters at the armory and while Ralph went to the hardware store to get the lanterns and stuff. And Eileen's daughters kind of stood there and watched her as she told the police this because they knew it wasn't true. Oh my God. What? John hadn't been there. John hadn't been there at all that night. But none of the children said anything because you don't speak up against your mother. Right. By this point, police knew foul play was involved. They knew that Maria had been kidnapped.

And they feared that Maria was dead by this point with no sign of her because there had been no ransom note. There had been, you know, no contact from a kidnapper, nothing. Get ready to experience an all new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop, though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500,

and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. At Don Valley North, Don Valley North for Lexus. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. And this investigation got off to a bit of a rocky start because from the beginning there was like conflicting stories about what time Maria went missing. Was it 6 p.m.? Was it 7 p.m.? No one really knew. The basis of the timeline that they were working on came from Kathy. Because Kathy, when she had gone to get her mittens, had asked Johnny what time it was. And he had told her 7.

But that's all it was based off of. That's the only, she was the only person that could remember what time it was. Maria's mother, Kathy's mother couldn't remember what time it was the girls went outside to play. Was it 6? Was it 6.30? Was it 5.30? They couldn't remember. And so based off of Kathy's story of she went in to look for her mittens at 7 p.m., they moved forward with this investigation and tried to set up a timeline

of when Maria had last been seen. But that's not really a great place to go on. No. And at a certain point, does it really matter? Exactly. At this point, it really doesn't matter, except that you want to know who has seen what at what time and when did anybody see anything suspicious. And, you know, and so that's really they're they're really relying on interviewing people right now because there's no evidence. And so Maria went on the news and made a public plea for her daughter's safe return. She said, God forgives mistakes and we would, too. She said, God forgives mistakes and we would too. She also said that Maria was nervous.

She was always just kind of a nervous kid in that she was quick to cry. And she sent a message to Maria. She said, don't cry, Maria. Above all, don't cry. Don't make a fuss. We'll be with you soon. Her big fear was that somebody had taken Maria. And Maria would freak out and the kidnapper would kill her. Yeah. Yeah. The newspaper reports kept coming out in the days. And, like, finally there was a headline that was, like, police fear missing girl dead or something like that. And Maria's father, Michael, went to the police and said, please, for God's sake, quit saying she is dead.

I know she's still alive. I know she's still alive. No one would have a reason to kill her. And if you keep saying she's dead, no one will search for her. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, this poor family.

Mm-hmm. So there was some belief because there was no sign of her, she possibly could have been taken out of state. And so the FBI was actually. Oh, damn. Like within like a couple days of the start of this investigation. Oh, not a week later. No. Like in your last case.

Right. Exactly. And so they organized some searches and a lot of people joined in. And in these searches, they actually found something in a farm field. They found a torn petticoat with blood on it. But they showed it to Maria's family and it wasn't hers. They also found a sack full

of abandoned kittens. I like to think they were fine and they were adopted by families who gave them a nice loving home. Boy, you're trying to put a nice spin on this terrible story, aren't you? They sent out crop dusters and military planes to search the surrounding areas for anything.

Maybe she hadn't been abducted. Maybe she'd wandered off and gotten lost. But as the days passed, like that looked less and less likely. They were pretty sure that she had been taken and that she likely had been killed already. The concern turned to protecting Kathy, her friend, the only other person who had been present when Johnny was there. So they put her under 24-hour police guard. So they were thinking he might come back and kill her.

Come back and kill her because maybe she'd be the only person that could identify him. Yeah, because this had made big news by this point. identify him. Yeah, because this had made big news by this point. They brought Kathy in and made her look over all kinds of mugshots and pictures of like every known pervert in the area is how they put it. Like anybody who'd been convicted of any kind of sex crime, probably just anybody who they considered weird, I'm guessing. Yeah. Yeah. And so they just had her looking at all kinds of pervs, picture after picture after picture. But nothing looked familiar to her. They had her look at a bunch of lineups in person and she didn't recognize anybody. This poor little girl.

Oh, my gosh. So she said at this point she felt exposed. She felt like she was on display. She felt like everybody was constantly watching her. And, like, this all weighed on her shoulders. Yeah. She was the only person who could identify this person. She remembers one time her mom pulled her aside and she looked her square in the face and she said,

Kathy, remember his face. You have to remember his face because you are the only one who can catch him. You are the only one who knows what he looks like. Yeah. I think that's horribly unfair. This is an eight-year-old girl. Yeah. Yeah.

Like she's not traumatized enough already. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And now you're saying, look, you're the only one. It all hinges on you. It is all on you. When there was no ransom note, there was no communication from a kidnapper, authorities

then believed that this had to be someone who was a sexual predator, someone who had taken Maria with the sole purpose of assaulting her, raping her, killing her. Yeah. And the police were certain that no one from their little town of Sycamore could have done this. This had to be the work of a trucker or a vagrant or someone just passing through town. This is how it always is. Oh yeah. So stupid. Yeah. But there

were tips coming in constantly. Didn't they have like a catalog of perverts? I'm sure they did. I'm sure they did. And they were getting tips. There was somebody that a few people around town called about about this guy they called Commando. Like, everybody in town called this guy Commando because he walked around in, like, army fatigues. And he was just kind of a weirdo.

And then there was another guy that multiple people called and gave tips about that they called Mr. X. I don't know why they called him Mr. X. It doesn't seem good. No. I don't think it seems great. It's not a good nickname. I prefer T-Bone. They tracked down every freight car that had gone through Sycamore the night Maria disappeared. They drained the lake. They set off dynamite at the quarry and they found nothing.

dynamite at the quarry and they found nothing. Wow. Weeks into the investigation, one of the lead investigators said, we have chased down countless clues and we have found exactly nothing. Hmm. Can we talk some more about that dude whose mom is lying for him? So it's interesting that you say that because that was one of the things that the FBI circled back to. They had gotten a couple tips about that person named Commando. Turned out that was John Tessier. Also, someone had called anonymously and said that they should look at this kid in the neighborhood whose last name was, you know, like Tresor or something like that. And they wasn't real sure about the last name, but definitely a weirdo who lived in the neighborhood.

And so the FBI this time paid a little visit to the Tessier house. And Ralph and Eileen were like, yeah, you know, John does kind of fit the physical description. And yeah, but he wasn't in obviously his name is John. Yeah, but he wasn't in Sycamore the night Maria disappeared, which is weird because they previously said that he was home the whole night. No, this time he was 40 miles away in Rockford, Illinois, enlisting in the U.S. Air Force. Well, that should be pretty easy to confirm. So they checked the phone records. And sure enough, someone who used the name John Tessier had placed a collect call to

the Tessier home from Rockford at 7 p.m. on the night Maria disappeared. What? Mm-hmm. at 7 p.m. on the night Maria disappeared. What? Mm-hmm. Yep. And so they were like, okay. I guess he was in Rockford, and I guess we won't even pay attention to the fact that earlier you told us he was home all night,

and we'll just completely believe these phone records, and surely that all makes sense. Right. Great. OK. It looks like John's totally cleared. Have a nice night. Yeah.

Weeks went by. The FBI asked people who like farmers to check their fields. FBI asked people who like farmers to check their fields. They asked people to check the sky for scavengers, see if they saw vultures circling and then check the area around that. They said it's entirely possible that her body has been discarded in a field or a nearby farm. Be alert to large gatherings of buzzards and crows. And if a body is located, make sure nothing is touched. The FBI didn't really know where else to go with this case at this point. J. Edgar Hoover had actually taken like a special like interest in this case.

It had made national news and he was like, you know, spare no expense. There's a missing white girl. There's a missing. There's a very cute missing white girl. There's a missing. There's a very cute missing white girl. Please, you know, keep going. And they were like, this search is costing us thirty six hundred dollars a day. And he said, keep it on going. Leave no stone unturned. But by this point, they tracked down two hundred and fifty leads, processed two hundred suspects, and they had nothing.

Absolutely nothing. Oh. They interrogated Kathy over and over and over again to see if she could remember anything else. And her story stayed the same. She never wavered on the facts. There were some times when she couldn't remember if John maybe was missing a teeth or, oh my gosh. Missing a teeth. Missing a tooth or had a gap between his front teeth. She was losing the image of his face in her mind. But the core facts stayed the same. And she stood by. Whenever they did a lineup, she was there for it.

But there was never anybody she recognized in it. Kathy, looking back, remembers her childhood basically in two parts. Before Maria was taken and after. Yeah. She said, we were safe before, but not afterward. People can disappear in big cities, but somebody doesn't disappear in a small town like Sycamore. Months went by. The FBI packed up and left. The searches were abandoned and then one day in april of 1958 a man was out mushroom hunting on a farm when he found something like under a fallen tree he saw something at first he thought

it was a dead deer oh he saw what he thought was bone and then like deer hide. And so he looked closer. And as he looked closer, he saw that it was actually the body of a little girl. So he went to his car where his wife was and he said he told her what he'd found. And they drove immediately to the closest house and they called the police from there and they came out and the coroner examined the body and he said there wasn't much left of her. It was skeletal remains and she was clothed from the waist up but only had socks on from the waist down. down. The man who conducted her autopsy was this 28-year-old coroner. It was like his first year as coroner. He was the son of the local funeral home director. He'd never done a murder case before. And he really struggled to process the scene of a murdered little girl. He didn't take any crime scene photos.

Oh, my God. So they went from having the fucking FBI on this thing to having the local dipshit. Yeah. So he said he didn't want the crime scene photos to end up on the front page of the newspaper. And so he just didn't take any. Oh, my God, you idiot. Yeah. front page of the newspaper. And so he just didn't take any. Oh, my God, you idiot. Yeah.

And the state of her remains were such that he couldn't determine a cause of death other than foul play was involved. Boy. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Francis had always said that if they found a body with brown socks on, that it would be Maria. And sure enough, these remains were found with brown socks on. And Francis came in and was immediately able to identify the remains as Maria's. Maria's funeral was held in Sycamore.

Maria's funeral was held in Sycamore. She was laid to rest in a small white casket on a spring day. At least 300 people came for the funeral. And her friend Kathy was there under police guard still. They thought there was a chance that whoever had done this would show up to the funeral. And so it was really important that Kathy was kept safe. Maria was remembered as a bright little girl who had a perfect attendance record at Sunday school. And the church organist played her favorite hymn, Jesus Loves Me.

Despite the recovery of Maria's body, the investigation didn't advance any further. They recovered no evidence off her body of any kind, no evidence of the scene. They weren't even able to determine a cause of death. It's unclear to me if that is because of the time when this happened, if this is because it was in the 50s, or if it's because this was an unskilled coroner who did the autopsy. I would guess it's because the body had deteriorated so much. Right.

Right. I mean, that's just the way it is today, too. I mean, if it's if a body is left out for too long. So I will say they do later determine a cause of death. Oh, yes. So how the body was reexamined years later and they determine a cause of death. Oh. Yes. So. How? The body was reexamined years later and they determined a cause of death at that time.

But it could be advances in science. When it was reexamined with today's technology. Okay. There were marks in the bones discovered that they determined that she'd been stabbed to death. Yeah. Seems like you probably should have known that. Yeah, that's kind of what I thought. That doesn't seem like a real advancement in technology. Yeah. But what the hell do we know?

Well, I know, I know, I don't know. I don't know. All right. But this case sat cold for decades until January of 1994, when Eileen Tessier made a deathbed confession of sorts. Oh, shit. Eileen was dying of cancer, and she called her daughter Janet to her bedside. She held her by the wrist and spoke urgently, her eyes wide.

She said, those two little girls, the one who disappeared, John did it. John did it, and you have to tell someone. Well, why now? Right. What the fuck, Eileen? Yeah. Because you know he's just been doing more shit for all these decades. Well, yeah.

Yeah. Janet knew immediately what her mother was saying. Of course. So Janet had been the baby when this all happened. She was like a year old. the baby when this all happened. She was like a year old. But she knew immediately that Eileen was saying that John, her half brother, had kidnapped Maria and killed her. Janet had lived with this story her whole life. She never lived in the previous version of Sycamore. Her version of Sycamore was always the scary one where kids disappear and bad things happen. She has a very clear memory of being a little kid.

And like the thing to do was to walk to the theater, watch a movie. And then after they would leave the theater, they would go get ice cream. And then they would stand in front of the police department and look at the wanted poster. And that wanted poster had a sketch of Johnny on it. Okay. Did it look like him? Okay. I don't know.

Okay. I don't know. Yeah. There's. Okay. Janet did not have a close relationship with her older brother. They were like 18 years apart in age. And by the time that Janet was of age where she's walking to the theater and looking at these pictures, John's long gone.

He's joined the Air Force and moved to Washington. And yeah. So I don't know. to Washington and yeah. So I don't know. I don't know if she didn't recognize the person in the sketch as her brother or if the sketch doesn't look like her brother. Yeah. I don't know.

That's fair. I don't know. But now Janet's like reeling with what her mom has said. Is this is this a true confession? Has her mom been covering for her older brother all of these years? Or were these just like some morphine-induced ramblings of a dying woman? She didn't really know what to do with it. She had heard stories about her brother, but like I said, wasn't super close with it. And so she just kind of tucked that information kind of back in her mind and just kind of held it and weighed what to do with it.

Eileen died pretty soon after she made that. She died on January 23rd, 1994. And again, she had a big funeral, big turnout. John was not welcome. His siblings called him and told him not to come, that he would not be welcome there. Because Janet had told them. I think there was a lot of things that had gone on. Well, you know, he molested his sister. Yeah. Yes.

That's a given. He absolutely did. 100% he molested his sisters. Yeah. Yes. 100% he molested his sisters. Yeah. Yes. And so aside from this, this confession that's just come out, he was estranged from the family.

And they specifically told him, you are not welcome at her funeral. Don't even bother to come. I want to flip a table right now. Because why cover up for this shithead? Well, so that's just it. So this is something that Jana is dealing with at this point. She knew. She had heard the stories from her siblings.

She knew enough about. And by the way, I'm not mad at her. I'm mad at the mom. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And the dad. Absolutely. So she knew enough about the story of Maria's disappearance that she knew that John had been a person of interest at the time of Maria's disappearance, but that John had had an alibi that was basically provided by his parents

and backed up by his parents. But there was, you know, lots of talk in the family about whether that was really true and where John really was that night. And the older siblings remembered that he wasn't there. And so what Janet discovered when she's kind of weighing what to do with this, she looks into the case a little bit. And she discovered that the FBI had actually questioned John early in the investigation. They talked to him on December 8th, which is five days after Maria went missing. And then two days after that, they had given him a lie detector test. During that test, they'd asked him lots of questions

about whether he had ever had sex with children. Ooh. Mm-hmm. And he, during the polygraph, admitted that he had, quote, been involved in some sex play with a younger girl, but that it had happened years earlier and that he had outgrown it. He said that he had had no interaction with Maria but did recognize her. He knew of her from years before in the neighborhood.

He had interacted with her once when she was like three. But according to him at that time in 1957, that was all he knew of her. And he passed the lie detector. Yeah, that's because those are bullshit. Yeah, he passed the lie detector. And apparently the FBI didn't think it was weird that he admitted that he had engaged in sex play with some children. And so they checked into his alibi, and they were able to see that there was a collect

call placed by someone who used his name. And so they were like, great. Everything looks cool here. Check you off the list of creepy weirdos. And they had cleared him. Well, okay. everything looks cool here. Check you off the list of creepy weirdos. And they had cleared him. Well, okay. That is kind of significant that they had a collect call come in from someone saying it was Johnny.

I mean, was that just total bullshit or did someone make a phone call? It seems that someone probably made the phone call because the operator is the one who gave the name John Tessier. And so why would she lie? But the question comes down to the timeline. The call came in at 7. But if Maria was actually abducted earlier, that's why the timeline becomes important. Oh, shit. Okay.

Mm-hmm. line becomes important. Oh, shit. Okay. So if Maria was abducted at 615, 620, 630, he could have possibly driven. He had a car. Yeah. He could have driven to Rockford and placed that call at that time. The whole story was that he'd been in Rockford doing this enrollment thing for the Air Force and that he'd gone by train and didn't have his car. And so he needed his parents to come get him. That's the story that his parents told, the story that he told. But there's no way to confirm that. And actually, years later, they found a train ticket that he'd been issued by the military to make it to that enrollment meeting. That's not the word, but I'm having trouble coming up with the word.

It's okay. Enlistment, his enlistment meeting. And the train ticket had never been used. Yeah. So for whatever reason, in 1957, they clear John. Okay. And this is what Janet finds out years later. And so now she's, like, just left to, like, grapple with what her dying mother had said.

Could her older half-brother really have been the boogeyman that everybody was scared of in Sycamore her whole life? Could her mother really have been keeping that secret been covering for him all these years i'm i'm so angry yeah this is so selfish on so many levels to make that kind of your dying declaration yeah and then, peace out. You can deal with this. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Bitch, you should have dealt with it. Mm hmm. So now, Janet, is it poor taste to call a dead woman a bitch? In my defense, what if she was a bitch? Yeah. So this is a huge burden Janet is carrying right now. Of course it is. She's just kind of like weighing what she. And you don't want it to be true. No, exactly. Exactly. First of all, you don't want it to be true that your mother has done that. Right. Has covered for a monster. And your father. Yeah. And you don't want it to be true that

someone you're related to was this mysterious boogeyman figure that you feared your whole life. Yeah, you want the FBI to have been right. So Janet kind of took stock of what she knew of her brother. He'd moved away from Sycamore like on December 10th, 1957.

Give me a break. And he joined the Air Force. And then he left the Air Force and joined the Army. And he'd done really well in the Army. And then he'd left the Army and he'd become a police officer. Oh, shit. And he was a really bad police officer. He had been allowed to resign.

Okay. After he was charged with statutory rape of a 15-year-old girl, a charge he managed to plead down to communication with a minor for immoral purposes, for which he served a year of probation. Oh, my God. This is killing me. This case is killing me. So not only did he have shitty enabling parents, he found work with a shitty enabling system.

Yeah, so I really didn't include much of this here. He should have become a Catholic priest. Yeah, no shit. So the story behind this charge was that this was like a 15-year-old girl that he was, like, homeless. And he'd, like, taken in to take care of. Oh, he found a vulnerable girl. Cool.

So he, like, just took, like, her and her friends were just allowed to crash at his house whenever. I bet. I bet. He was totally cool and just, like, whatever they needed. And then one night she woke up and he was assaulting her. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. What a great guy.

Yeah. And Janet had seen a dark side of her brother John firsthand. Like I said, they were years apart in age. But when Janet was 21, she was kind of going through a like, what am I going to do with my life sort of phase. And so she had talked to her brother John, who was living in Washington at the time in Washington State. And he said, hey, come out here, hang out with me for a little bit, you know, take some time off from life, sort your head out, you know, whatever.

He was setting up a photography business because he just had to resign from the police department. Oh, great. I bet he wanted to take senior pictures of high school girls. Uh-huh. Okay. Wait, are you being for real yeah you took all kinds of pictures inappropriate pictures of young girls okay and so he's setting up his photography business and like she could just totally come out there and visit him and help him with that he was also going through a second divorce because it was just really tough being married yeah i. I bet she was so old. Ew. Right?

Adults. Am I right? Uh-huh. God, I fucking hate this case. Why'd you do this? I know. Uh-huh. It gets way worse.

So good. It gets so much worse. This is why I was in a terrible mood earlier. Okay. I have to tell you something. My case, I was thinking about this. It's so bad. Yeah.

It's almost funny. Yeah. Because you're like, how could it get worse? Oh, wait, it does. Yeah. So we are both doing great. Great. Here we go. So while she was out there helping him with his photography business and everything, she's

like 21. He's like in his late 30s. She made some like offhand comment in the car, like as they were like on their way to a photo shoot. And she thought it was just something like totally innocuous, just like a little joke. And she said he looked at her with like the scariest eyes she'd ever seen. It was just a look of utter hatred. And she just, it was like he was some other person completely. It just, it like made her chilled to the bone. And then like, just like that, it was as if nothing had happened and he was totally his normal self again.

Another time on that same visit, they'd gotten into some kind of argument. They were at his house. He pulled out a gun. Oh. Laid it on the table between them. And he said that he could kill her and tell everybody she ran away. And that he'd just dump her body where nobody would find it. Oh.

She packed her stuff and went home that day. Yeah. Oh, my God. And now she's got this deathbed confession from her mom. And so she's like, I just I have to tell someone I have to do something. And so she called the Sycamore police. And they were like, yeah, no, that's an old case. You know, nobody cares about it.

She just got kind of like the runaround, like here, talk to this person, whatever. Just forget about it. She talked to her family about it and her family was like, don't even bother drudging all that stuff up. It's fine. It's old news. Like, you know, there's no point to this. How does the victim's family feel? Yeah, exactly. Do they think there's no point? Wow. It would take her 15 years to get someone to listen to her. Wow. It would take her 15 years to get someone to listen to her about this. Oh, God. Poor Janet. Yeah. One day, so she would, you know, call.

She'd try and make a call. She'd get the runaround, and she'd just tuck it away in her brain for a little bit. And then it would dig at her and dig at her and dig at her. And so she'd have to call again, and she'd get the same thing happen. This would be so hard because you don't want to deal with it. No, exactly. And so I would imagine for most people, at the first sign of resistance, you'd be like, you don't care. Yeah, you'd be like, that's it.

Okay, that's fine. Great. I did my thing. I made the call. Okay. Yeah. Truer words have never been spoken. Yeah.

Seriously. I think most of us, it would be like, well. Okay, well, I made the call. This is off of me now. Yeah. Yeah. Just like her dipshit mom. Dipshit's too nice a word.

It is. So this kind of happened just kind of cyclically over the years. She'd call. She'd get the runaround. She'd let it go for a while. One day she calls, like on a whim, the Chicago fbi office and they're like ma'am are you the fucking mayor who are you who are you she's like no i'm not the mayor and they're like what have you been calling about and so they were like you have to call you have to call the local jurisdiction

you have to call the sycamore police and she's like i've already done that yeah by this time, it had been 40 years. It had been 40 years since Maria had disappeared. Somehow, she gets in contact with some FBI detective, and she found out why she was getting the runaround. Technically, Maria's case had been closed. Why? So this detective named Patrick Solar, or Solar maybe, I don't know, had looked into the case years earlier. And he had put in the information into an FBI database looking for related cases. And he had linked it to this truck driver who had been suspected of killing two other little girls, one in Ohio, one in Pennsylvania. And he had worked as a Ferris wheel operator, like as part of like a carnival thing.

And so they were like, yeah, this makes total sense. It matches what he had done. He'd sexually assaulted these young girls and left their bodies. And they were like, the physical description of him loosely matches the physical description of Johnny. Check. Case solved. This guy.

And this guy was dead. Yeah. Well, that's convenient. Yeah. And so solved. Case closed. Closed in the book on that one. And this was just very convenient for the people of sycamore too because nobody wanted

to believe it was somebody from their town who had done this not yeah yeah and so they're like great it was a stranger of course it was you know what i just realized what if janet listens to this and she hears me calling her mom a bitch a whole bunch sorry janet sorry jan Janet. We do think this is a terrible burden that your mother placed on you, though. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At this point, Janet's father, Ralph, was still alive. Oh, okay. And he asked her to stop dredging it up.

Don't worry about the past. This is done. There's no point to this. Okay. Well, Janet, I'm sorry. Your dad's a bitch, too. Now, boy. this. Okay. Well, Janet, I'm sorry. Your dad's a bitch, too. Now, boy. Sorry.

Come on. But after he died, she thought she'd give it one last try. All right. See if she could get anybody to take her seriously. And so she found a tip line on the Illinois State Police website that allowed you to email in tips. And so she wrote this email on September 11, 2008. She said, Sycamore, Illinois, December 1957. A seven-year-old child named Maria Ridolph vanished. Her remains were found in another county several miles away in early spring of 1958. I still believe that John Samuel Tessier from

Sycamore, Illinois was and is responsible for her death. He is living in the Seattle-Tacoma-Washington area under a new name. What? He changed his name in 1994 to Jack Daniel McCullough. Jack Daniels? Mm-hmm. Okay. McCullough. This was to honor his mother.

That's the only reason he changed his name. Well, he did owe a lot to his mom. McCullough was her maiden name. That's her Irish name. And so. Yeah. Cool. He changed it when he was getting ready to marry his, I believe, fourth wife.

He said to her, do you want to be the fourth Mrs. Tessier or would you like to be the first Mrs. McCullough? Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Oh, Yep. Mm-hmm. Oh, God. Mm-hmm. Anyway. Okay.

Okay. So she said he's living in the Seattle-Tacoma-Washington area under the name Jack Daniel McCullough. I've given information to the person responsible for the cold case in Sycamore. I've done this a few times, and nothing is ever done. This is the last time I mention this to anyone. What information I do have makes Tessier a viable suspect and worth looking into. I'm not going to keep doing this over and over. It is exhausting and it dredges up painful, horrible memories. Yeah.

And she sent that email. Mm-hmm. Someone saw that email. I can't believe an email is what does this. Yes. And thought, okay, whoever wrote this is very serious, and it is worth a phone call. It is worth seeing what information they have. And so this investigator called Janet and she talked to him for 45 minutes and told

him the gist of everything she knew. And the detective was really leery at first because when he found out that Janet was like a baby when this happened, he's like, okay, fuck yeah what can you know and so then he as she took him through the story he was like okay this is actually sounding more and more promising and oh he's a big creepy creep okay great that's wonderful and so when they got done he said I can't promise you anything, but we're going to look into this. We're going to try. And Janet said, you've got to try. And he responded, I know. And he said, you know, I was afraid you were another crackpot when you called. And Janet said, do you think I am? And he said, no, I'm going to put my bulldogs on this.

Oh, yeah. OK, come on now. So Larry Cott and Brian Hanley were the bulldogs. They were these experienced detectives. And he gives them the case. And neither of them really knew anything about the case. So what they first. Google. Yeah.

Google read everything they could about it. Google. Yeah, Google read everything they could about it. And then they opened up all the files from the early investigation, went through, started tracking people down. And what they found was actually there was an alarming amount of people in this case who were, number one, still alive. And number two, very willing to talk about this case. Why is that alarming? It was surprising. Alarming is probably not the right word.

Yeah, alarming is bad. Yeah, no, surprising is the better word. It was very upsetting how many people lived. No, no, no. They talked to all of John's sisters and that's when they uncovered that John had molested multiple

sisters when he was growing up. Also, he was believed to have molested several neighborhood girls and he'd raped his sister when he was home on military leave. Yeah. He's a super cool guy. Yeah. So glad he wasn't locked up a long time ago.

Absolutely. They talked to several of John's friends from high school and they talked about how several people remembered seeing his car in town that day. He had a very distinguished car. It had like, I don't think distinguished is the right word. Distinctive. Distinctive car? All right.

That's fine. No, that's true. No, I know distinguished is not the word I'm looking for. I don't think distinctive was the word I was looking for either, but it is the right word. Anyway, distinguishable? No, just either, but it is the right word. Uh-huh. Anyway. Distinguishable? No, just distinguishable. That's not a word. Anyway, his car was very easily recognizable.

Yeah, it was a unique car. It had a special paint job. It had flames on the side of it. How distinguished. Yeah, very distinguished. Classy. Anyway, they had seen his car in town, which he had claimed to be out of town all day i gotta say what a dumbass if you're gonna go be a child molester maybe don't put flames don't make your car so

distinguished am i right don't wear a tuxedo when you're going around town absolutely and then there was another story of a piggyback ride. Oh, gross. What are you talking about? There was a little girl who maybe three years before Maria had gone missing had been offered a piggyback ride by John Tessier and she had said yes and he was giving her a piggyback ride running up and down the street when her fucking dad came outside and was like what the fuck are you doing get away from my daughter yeah that guy that father when Maria went missing and it came out that there's a piggyback ride he He said something. Yes, he called. And he was like, you have to look into John Tessier and told them the piggyback ride story.

God damn it. But they had cleared him. He passed the polygraph and he'd been in fucking wherever doing whatever. Yeah. For the Air Force. Okay. Real American hero. For the Air Force. Okay.

Real American hero. It was astounding to these investigators how quickly they'd cleared John, despite all of the stuff about him being a creepy weirdo. And how weird. He'd left town right after the investigation. Right. I mean, come on. And also weird. He changed his name. He's going by a different name.

And oh, my gosh. What's this? He was a disgraced police officer. And he has just like a wake of like horrible stories in his past. Oh, what's that? All involving little girls. Oh, what's that? He had a daughter.

Uh-oh. No. Uh-huh. So, oh, gosh. There's two bad things involving a starter. The first is that, so there was this woman that John lived with for an extended amount of time. She said that they were in a platonic relationship. It was like a relationship, but it wasn't a sexual relationship, and they lived together.

She kind of thought John was a roommate. Kind of, more than that, but, yeah, but not, I don't know. Anyway, one day she was, like, cleaning the like cleaning the house and like his desk drawer was kind of stuck. And so she reached up under it. Oh God. Child porn. It was a picture, a naked picture of his daughter.

Of his own daughter taped up underneath the drawer of his desk. God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then his daughter had actually gone missing years later and had been found dead. Oh my. In Texas. What the fuck?

Yeah. As far as I could find, her case has not been solved. I will solve it today. What year was that? Gosh, I want to say it was like in the 90s, early 2000s maybe. Okay. I was about to get more mad at his parents. Yeah, no. Like your granddaughter goes missing and you're still not sure whether you want to say anything.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. So he molested and killed his own daughter. Very possibly. Right? I mean, yeah. Or gave her to someone.

So finally, they circle back to Kathy, Maria's best friend from all those years ago, and they put together a photo lineup for her. They put together pictures of, it was like six pictures. Five of them were from the yearbook from the year that, like from 1957 when Maria went missing. Only John had been expelled that year. So his picture was not in the yearbook. And so they'd had to track down a picture of him. So it was in a little bit of a different setting. They actually found his old girlfriend who happened to have a picture of them from when they went to prom or something.

And so like this. So you've got these five pictures that look like yearbook pictures. And then you've got a picture of John where he's in a little bit different of a position. The background's a little bit different. But they're cropped all exactly the same. So they show her all these pictures. And she spends a few minutes looking at them. And then she says, she points to the picture in the fourth position.

And she says, that's him. That's Johnny. And it was the picture of John Tessier yeah oh my god so there's some conversation about this later like was this picture singled out for her because it was a little bit different it wasn't exactly the same yeah i do think they should have mixed it up a bit yeah yeah i agree i don't love that. No. Yeah. So they're like, okay, it's time to track him down. We know based on what Janet has told us that he is living in Seattle. So they hop on a plane. What?

Did you paddle your horse? No, that's me running to the airport. Oh, I thought you were. And then this is my plane flying. Oh, okay. Okay. They can't see it, but they're impressed. And they track him down.

Okay, so this is at this time when they're like trying to track him down. That's when they find out about his daughter, which I already, spoiler alert, told you about. She had vanished in 2005. She was 34 years old at the time of her disappearance. Oh. And she was found near San Antonio, Texas. Her body was found on a golf course, but it wasn't identified until 2013. And like, there's still an open investigation on this. So, yeah. So they tracked down.

What do you make of her being that old? I don't know. I think that's interesting. I really honestly was so disgusted by this at this point that I didn't put that much thought into it. You ready to be more disgusted? Yeah. I wonder, I mean, obviously he did horrible things to her. I wonder if she confronted him about it. I think that's very possible. Yeah.

I do think that's very possible. Yeah. I'm at an age now where I feel safe enough to be able to stand up for myself. I'm going to confront you and stand up for myself. Yeah, I think that's very possible. Or it could have been absolutely nothing, like with Janet, where he all of a sudden, you know, she makes some comment. Yeah. Okay. Boy, this is a fun conversation, huh?

So the police tracked Jack McCullough down on June 29th, 2011. He, at this time, was working and living at this, like, retirement village type of thing. He was the Night's Watchman. Oh, God. Just the kind of guy you want on the Night's Watch. Mm-hmm. Tell me if you think this is a coincidence. What?

Okay. Maria lived at 616 Archie Place. When they showed up at the Four Freedoms house in Tacoma, I believe, Jack McCullough was living in apartment 616. I do think that's a coincidence. I'm sorry. I know you hate that, but I do think it's just a coincidence. So they bring him in for questioning and he's cool as a cucumber at first. He's like, you know, whatever.

Ask me anything you want. I am very prepared. And they actually did bring in a special investigator because they knew he had experience as a law enforcement officer. And so they brought in someone very trained in interrogation and different interrogation techniques. And so that, I don't know, they could get the best interrogation out of him, I guess. Okay. So like three hours in, he's like, you know what? Why don't we just settle this right now?

Hook me up to a polygraph. I'll answer whatever you want. No. And so they do. Okay. And then he gets super pissed when the questions become very personal. And he's faced with the accusations that his mother made on her deathbed. And he's like, no, my mother never would have said that.

My mother loved me. Yeah, my mother covered up for me all the time. Then she let my little sister do her dirty work. So then they stop. They stop the polygraph and they go back to like just a regular interrogation. They're like, OK, why don't you tell us about, you know, what you really not lawyer up? No, not yet. Wow. Talk about arrogant huh uh-huh and so

they're like oh i totally think he was just gonna be like i'm gonna take the polygraph test i'm gonna pass it like i have before i know how to pass it honestly if you got away with this much oh yeah over the course of your life i guess you would kind of feel like yeah 100 yeah and so they go back and they do like a regular interrogation with him with that special interrogator. And she gets him talking about Maria. Tell us what you remember of Maria. And he's like, well, I don't really think about, you know, what happened in Sycamore all those years ago. I do remember Maria.

And he gets like this far off look in his eye. And he was like, I just remember her as being stunningly beautiful. Wow. She had big brown eyes and she was just lovely. She was so lovely. Ew. Just lovely. Okay, stop.

That's what he said. He said it like three times in a row. And the interrogator remembers like thinking that it like it seemed to her like he was describing someone that he was deeply in love with. Yeah. OK, so there are 48 hours episode. I just watched clips of this. But Aaron Moriarty like questions him about this.

And she's like, you know, I've seen the interrogation tapes. And when you talk about Maria, you have almost a weird fondness for her. And he's like no that's not what that is. And he said I'm a father. That's just how fathers talk about little girls. No. Nope.

No it's not. No it's sure not. It's definitely not. It's for sure not. Yeah. Is that what Aaron said? It's for sure not. And I'd like you to go away now, please. This interrogation goes on for eight hours

and the questions just get more and more personal and finally like i don't know what set him over the edge something about they asked him about his discrepancy and like okay you said you took the train to to rockford but like we have your unused train ticket how do you how did you get there if you didn't use the train ticket he's like i don't know i couldn't possibly remember that maybe i hitchhiked and like the interrogation breaks out at this point. It's been more than eight hours. And so finally he's like, I just want a lawyer. I just want a lawyer. Okay. And so at that point he refused to answer any more questions and he was arrested and charged with the kidnapping and murder of Maria. Oh, wow. And he was extradited to Illinois. Wow. I'm kind of surprised. 54 years had gone by.

At that point, they exhumed Maria's body. This is kind of what I told you about earlier. So they exhumed it to check for any DNA evidence. So much time had gone by. Yeah. That none could be found. But what they did do was they had this forensic anthropologist go in and examine the body. And that's when they saw the marks in the bones. There were nicks in her sternum and her neck vertebrae, which he surmised that that meant her cause of death was that she'd been stabbed multiple times in the chest and throat. Oh, gosh. He saw marks consistent with at least three slashes to her throat. Oh, gosh.

The prosecutors in DeKalb County, which is, I guess, where Sycamore is, I'm guessing. DeKalb, Illinois. Is it DeKalb? Is it pronounced DeKalb? You don't use the L? It's a silent L? You throw that L out. You throw the L away.

Okay, forget I said that. It's obviously DeKalb. Everybody knows it's DeKalb. Anyway, so the state attorney was like, okay, I see that you guys have made an arrest, but there's no fucking evidence. Right. What do we do with this case? I mean, that's what I'm kind of. Yeah.

How do I prosecute this case but the riddell family and the tessier family were like this is who it is jack mccullough did this please try him and so they did really yeah the prosecution was like all right if you guys want me to, I'll do it. Well, that's never the way that works. I know! Okay. And on what evidence? That he's a creepy weirdo?

How could DeKalb, Illinois even afford to do that? Wasn't that the town that that horse lady bankrupted? Oh, I think it is. Huh. Yeah. There's no way we're right on that. Anyway. Who knows? Who knows? Anyway, I think it is. Huh. Yeah. There's no way we're right on that. Anyway. Who knows?

Who knows? Anyway, I think it is. Yeah, maybe. I mean, maybe. Okay, anyway. So anyway, finally, 55 years after Maria's disappearance, this goes to trial in September of 2012. So the defense asked for a bench trial because they were like, okay, if we only have to convince one person,

that's better than having to convince 12 people. Also, in a case where you're looking at not much evidence at all. It's better to have the judge who knows the law. Yeah, than someone who would be like, you know what, you got the right guy. Yeah, this guy is a huge creepy weirdo and obviously he did it. I don't care if there's evidence to prove You got the right guy. Yeah, this guy is a huge creepy weirdo. And obviously he did it. I don't care if there's evidence to prove it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the prosecution said that Jack McCullough had become attracted to Maria and that he decided to kidnap her, but then afterward had, I don't know, panicked or maybe he'd intended to kill her the whole time. I bet you he intended to kill her the whole time. I'm sure that he did. And they presented those new autopsy reports suggesting that Maria had been stabbed to death. So obviously they suspected

that he had sexually assaulted her as well based on his history, but there was no way to prove that. And so that was never brought up in court. Well, and based on the fact that she was found with no pants on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which, yeah, I think you could present that as the argument. But they didn't bring it up in court. I do think there's something to be said for we're going to have a hard enough time proving anything.

Let's not. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. They called a number of witnesses, including Maria's family members, neighbors, law enforcement people who had worked the case. And then the star witness was Kathy. Oh. Yeah. Who all these years later had to get on the stand and stare down. Oh, my gosh.

And identify him as the man who had given them given maria that piggyback ride she he was the stranger she was sure of it they then called three inmates who testified that they different times they had been housed with jack mccullough and that he had talked about killing maria Oh, come on. Okay. Yeah. And there's, I mean, I don't understand why they do this. Huh.

Because these inmates all gave different stories. They gave inconsistent modes of death. Uh-huh. Like, none of them said that Maria had been stabbed, though that's clearly what the evidence showed. None of them said that Maria had been stabbed, though that's clearly what the evidence showed. One said that he had accidentally smothered her when he was trying to stop her from screaming. Another said that he had strangled her with like a wire.

Yeah. I mean, I don't even know why you put them on the stand. Because you have nothing. Nothing. Yeah. And I can't say I wouldn't do it any differently. If I were these guys, I'm sure they got something in exchange for saying whatever. Yeah. The defense argued that the prosecutors were putting this case on with no evidence and that they were doing it purely under the pressure from the Ridolph family and the Tessier family.

And that all they were doing was trying to solve this old case and they were basically throwing stuff at a wall and seeing what would stick and trying to make the evidence match Jack McCullough, even though he had an ironclad alibi. Well, not really. That they couldn't present at trial. What? Yeah, because there was nobody to testify, apparently. This is a little bit confusing to me. Because Mrs. Tessier had died, she couldn't testify about the collect call that they had received.

Neither could Ralph. So it was hearsay evidence, essentially. And the judge wouldn't allow it in. So his alibi was not allowed in. However, her deathbed confession was allowed in because it was given to Janet, who then testified to it. Well, and was that considered a dying declaration? Yes.

Yeah. OK. Yeah yeah so because nobody could testify directly about the collect call that information about so the operator was dead by i believe so okay so nothing about his alibi was allowed in at the trial But the deathbed confession was allowed in. Mm-hmm. As a dying, yeah, under the hearsay law as a dying declaration. Yeah. Jack McCullough did not take the stand in his own defense.

Yeah, that's probably wise. Mm-hmm. After four days of testimony, the judge weighed the case. And he said, based on the credibility of the eyewitnesses and those jailhouse informants, that he found Jack McCulloch guilty. Wow. I'm sorry, you're specifically citing the credibility of the jailhouse informants? When they all have different stories. Yes!

Now, it's possible that he told them all different stories, but I don't see why he would have. I mean, I guess that is possible. It's, yeah, it's possible. Huh. Mm-hmm. He also went on to elaborate beyond that, that he had extreme confidence that his decision to find Jack McCall guilty would be upheld upon appeal. Okay. Spoiler alert.

Yeah. You're wrong. Yeah. There's just not enough. alert. Yeah. You're wrong. Yeah. There's just not enough. Yeah. Jack McCullough was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole after 20 years. However, at the time of his sentencing, he was 73 years old. So she's done. Yeah.

Jack McCullough was not done. Yeah. However, there was a brief moment of rejoicing in Sycamore as this was the coldest cold case to ever be solved. But Jack McCullough appealed his conviction on multiple grounds. And actually, his initial appeal was denied. Initially, he appealed on the grounds that the deathbed confession should not have been let in and his alibi should have been allowed at trial. But an appeals court sided with the lower court on the judge's decision. And I'm not real clear on why his alibi was not allowed in.

It was something about, yeah, somebody couldn't directly testify about where the collect call was placed from. And it doesn't necessarily prove a timeline. So because there's not a concrete time of when Maria went missing. That initial appeal was denied. He then submitted pro se a post-conviction relief petition saying that he asked for his conviction to be set aside. Initially, this was dismissed, saying that it was frivolous and without merit. But the public defender who had represented Jack McCullough at trial thought that there was something to this. And he actually asked for like a special prosecutor to look at it.

And they did. And they thought there wasn't enough evidence to convict him. Wow. And so his conviction was overturned. His sentence was thrown out. Mm-hmm. And he was granted a new trial. They didn't go again.

They didn't. And they actually publicly announced that he was innocent of the crime. No. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. So officially on paper, he is an exoneree. Oh, fuck off. Fuck off.

Mm-hmm. How do you feel about this? I fucking hate it. I think. They clearly have the right guy. But I agree. There's not enough evidence to prove it in a court of law. I completely agree.

And so I hate it. I hate it. I hate that he is exonerated. Yeah, that's such bullshit. That he was wrongfully convicted and then it was overturned. And that he was able to sue the city of seattle and receive three hundred thousand dollars brandy you're killing me you are killing yep he received he sued okay so he sued off the city of seattle for allegations of pervasive misconduct. Oh, wow.

That's rich. And they settled with him and paid him $300,000. I wish they would have just murdered him. Mm-hmm. Yep. And so he's got himself a little piece of paper that says he was declared innocent by the DeKalb County Circuit Court on April 12, 2017.

I could projectile vomit. And that's the coldest cold case that was ever solved. I hated that so much. So much. That was terrible. It's terrible. It's 100% the right guy. Yeah.

And the thing that drives me nuts is he should have gone to prison for a million other things he did. Yeah. Yeah. They actually did. And this article for CNN, it's called Taken. And it goes way in depth into all of the other shitty stuff he did as well. They actually attempted to try him for the molestation of his sisters. Yeah.

But there was something about the statute of limitations but because he had left Sycamore so quickly after, I don't know,

they were able to try, it was thrown out is the whole, the whole story. Good news. He got out and got a ton of money. Yeah.

Great. Yeah. Yeah, you love to hear the story of an exoneree. Oh, shit. What a weird story of an exoneree. Usually the exoneree stories are like, oh my gosh, thank God he got out after all that.

No. I've never heard one like this. Is he right? No. No. I think that's why I was like, I told you, I was like, I just don't like the case. I don't like it. Yeah, it's funny. I couldn't really tell why

I didn't like the case, but yeah, that's why. It's because when you hear about somebody getting exonerated, you're supposed to be like, woo! But in this case, it's like, no, that fucking dirtbag belongs in prison for the rest of his life. For like a million different things. Just lock him up. Oh my God.

That's horrible. Uh-huh. Yep. Yep. Okay. When you said you didn't like your case today, I thought maybe you'd accidentally picked a lame one or something. No. No.

No, that was not the case. Well, that's just it, too, is that, like, as I kept researching it, it was just, like, getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And worse and worse and worse. Okay. I loved that story. I thought it was very well told. Thank you. Fucking hated it. Fucking hated it.

Let's do a fucking ad. Okay. And then I have to pee. Wonderful. All right. Well, boy, you just told a really fun uplifting case oh god and terrible i gotta like shake it off now you have a terrible case such a bad case oh fuck um yeah okay i just i'll just get into it. Yeah.

Here we go. Okay, great. Here we go. Great. I will say right now that for the third episode in a row, we have accidentally done a theme. Really? Yeah, and I'm not going to tell you what the theme is until, you know. Oh, no.

I have a guess. Do you want to say your guess now no really okay thank you too is it yes oh fuck yours better be better okay patty could you bleep what Brandy said? Okay. Thank you to We're a Hot Mess in the Discord for suggesting this terrible, terrible case. Oh, good. This case, and I can't stress this enough, is tragic. If I had to compare it to anything, I'd say it's a little like that time that we went out for custard and the custard place had a sign advertising the pumpkin pie concrete. And then they didn't have it yet. yeah yeah you went up and ordered one yeah and oh my god you shouldn't

have assaulted that worker um yeah that's all to say that this is a wrongful conviction case okay huge shout out to the wrong man by john shoop for for NBC News, as well as some other reporting that he did. The vast majority of this comes from his very in-depth, wonderful piece. And also thank you to the book Rectify by Laura Bazelon. Here we go. It was 1 a.m. on March 20th, 1982 in Norman, Oklahoma. A 20-year-old woman who we'll call Jane was at home in bed. Her entire apartment was dark and she heard a thump followed by nothing. She lay in bed for a

while, maybe 10 minutes, and she must have figured that the noise was a figment of her imagination because she got up to go to the bathroom. But on the way there, she spotted the outline of a man standing in her apartment. She called out her boyfriend's name. Are you okay? That is like such a fucking fear of mine. Really? Yes. That I'm going to step out of the bathroom and then my eyes are going to be adjusting in the dark. And you'll see a figure.

And I'm going to see a figure standing there. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Second fear. Okay. Spiders. No. Is that I'm going to check.

So London has a baby, like a baby monitor. It's like a video baby monitor. My second fear is that I'm going to check her baby monitor and that there's going to be someone else in the room. Oh, God, that is terrifying. Yes. Someone should do a horror movie about that. I think there's lots of them.

I don't watch horror movies, so I have no idea what's been done and what hasn't been done. There are no creepy movies involving children, right? That's a whole new genre. Yeah. Listen up, Hollywood. Right. So she's living your nightmare yeah she's out of the bathroom she sees this figure she says her boyfriend's name she hadn't invited him over he wasn't there but i think there's you

know there's a moment where you're like, please be someone I know. Yeah. And the man didn't respond. And just like that, he disappeared. She rushed for the light switch and turned the lights on. But as soon as she did, the man jumped out from around a corner. He grabbed her. He had a knife. He pushed her down the hall toward the bathroom, turning off the lights as he went.

He ordered her to be quiet. He forced her to lie face down on her bathroom rug. And then he sexually assaulted her. Afterward, he went through her purse. He stole some cash. And then he told her to unlock the front door for him. So she did. And he left. Jane was traumatized. She called for her dog, which where was the dog? Yeah. Shame on you.

Don't blame that poor dog. I know that's not nice. But I was kind of like, whoa. This is the episode where you're blaming dogs and moms who died of cancer. Well, that mom should have spoken up. I'm sorry. You're 100% correct. And this dog should have fought off that intruder. Should have barked or something.

No, I'm sure the dogs, well. I would say not all dogs react to people the way your dogs do. Yeah. You have guard dogs. My dogs don't even like my friends and family. My dogs don't bark at anything. Take note, weirdos. Go to Brandy's house.

So she called for her dog, who I guess just sat there. I don't know. She turned on the light. She put on a bathrobe, and she called her boyfriend. He rushed over to her apartment and called the police. Once police arrived, Jane told them what had happened. She described her attacker, but it was tough because her apartment had been so dark. but it was tough because her apartment had been so dark.

Eventually, after some investigation, they came to her with a photo lineup. It was six black and white photos of possible suspects. Jane looked and looked at the pictures, but she couldn't say for certain that any of those men had attacked her. So the police came to her with a new lineup. This time, all the photos were in color. And interestingly, two of the men from the black and white lineup were also included in the full color lineup. Which police really aren't supposed to do that because surprise, surprise, it turns out it's super suggestive and misleading recognize anybody here exactly yeah but at any rate with this new full

color lineup jane identified the man who'd been in both lineups and who most closely resembled the man who attacked her. It was 22-year-old Thomas Webb III. It all made perfect sense. Jane was a student at the University of Oklahoma, and she'd ID'd Thomas, a guy who'd just moved to the area a few months earlier and who'd already gotten into trouble with the law. Thomas didn't go to the university, but he went to parties there and he'd been arrested for breaking into a dorm. And now, apparently, he'd done this, broken into a woman's apartment, raped her, stolen from her. So in 1983, Thomas Webb went on trial. The case against him was super strong. Jane had positively ID'd him and she told her story on the stand and the

prosecution called an expert witness who testified that they'd found two scalp hairs and one pubic hair at the scene. And those three hairs were consistent with hair samples from Thomas Webb. What? Don't you, don't you spit at science? That's a junk science. Oh my God.

I have it here. By the way, nowadays we have a term for this kind of analysis and it's called junk science. But never mind that. Back in the day, we just called this science. Thomas, I'm sorry. It's very possible that you may have said this already what

I may have passed out for a second okay what is Thomas Webb the third one of the two

pictures that appeared in the lineup yes okay yes and now I don't know

for this for certain but I mean I kind of think she must have really not seen

much other than he was a black man and maybe a couple other things about him. So, okay, but here's what I'm thinking. What? You see the first lineup, right? And you're like, I don't know. I can't tell at all. Yeah.

You see the second lineup and there's somebody in it who was in that previous lineup. And you're like, wait, there's something familiar about that face. Absolutely. That's shitty. Yeah, there's something familiar about that face. Absolutely. That's shitty. Yeah, it's shitty. That's terrible. That's bad police work. Absolutely it is.

And horribly suggestive. Here's the thing. Even if the witness doesn't do what you're thinking of, like, oh, wow, that kind of jogs my memory. Yeah. You could even be thinking,

okay, the police They've put this person in the lineup a second time. who have investigated this. They don't have a dog in this fight, which of course they do,

but you're thinking they're just trying to get, and they're trying to help me out here. Yeah. All they want to do is put bad guys in jail and save good people.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right. If this podcast has taught us anything, that's what they always do. What'd your guy do for a living? Photographer, right. That's right, he's a photographer. Thomas's defense team put up a pretty solid common sense argument on his behalf.

They were like, hey, the police put Thomas's photo in both lineups. And then they played that audio from our podcast where you explained why that was bad. That's super suggestive. It tainted the whole process. That's what they said. Plus, Jane's apartment was so dark that night. She couldn't have gotten a good look at her attacker. So the jury deliberated.

But after a while, they announced that they couldn't agree on a verdict. Wow. It was a hung jury. I know. Which, that kind of surprises me. They didn't know that was junk science back then. Yeah, I know. But anyway.

So, you know, that was a bit of a relief for Thomas. But the prosecution wasn't done with him. They knew they had their guy. This case was covered in consistent hairs. And that had to mean something Brandy. You know, you know consistent hair. Yeah, consistent hair.

Don't you think that's probably some bullshit like this is the same color. Yeah. Yeah. And like the texture is similar. This is a curly hair and that's probably some bullshit? Like, this is the same color. Yeah. Yeah. And, like, the texture is similar. This is a curly hair and that's a curly hair. Yeah, I mean. Like, right? How different do two people's pubes really look, I ask you? Well, you've got weird straight pubes, so.

Stop it. That's not true. Thank you for giving me that Brazilian blowout. I appreciate it. I know that's not a service you offer to everyone. As a friend, it made me feel very special. It's cool to have curtains. Gotta keep it spicy.

Norman and I have been married a while. You know? gotta keep it spicy norman and i have been married a while you know everyone she's she's lolling around in her chair right now so the prosecution met with the defense and offered up a plea deal plead guilty to this crime and you'll get 15 years. And Thomas' public defender was like, Take the fucking deal. Yeah, you need to take the deal.

You're facing a lot of time, and if you go this route, you'll get out a lot faster. Thomas was stunned. It was at that moment that he realized that literally no one, including his own attorney, believed he was innocent. What a terrible feeling that would be. Yeah. Especially when you are innocent. Yeah.

Which is what he was. He was completely innocent. So he wasn't about to plead guilty to something he didn't do, so he rejected the deal. And the prosecution moved forward with another trial. Thomas' second trial lasted one day. Oh. I know. What?

I think a lot of these cases go really fast and then, boom, you're locked up forever. Yeah. From what I could tell, not much changed from the first trial. Jane took the stand. The hair analyst took the stand and was like, yep, this is all hair. And the defense was like, dark room, photo lineups, bullshit. And then the jury deliberated for about an hour, and this time they found him guilty. The judge sentenced Thomas to 60 years.

60 years? 30 for rape, 10 for forcible oral sodomy, 5 for grand larceny, and 15 for burglary. Yeah. Holy shit. I don't know how much of this is kind of what anyone would get and how much of it is black man in Oklahoma rapes a white woman. I think we're heavy leaning in that direction. Yeah, I mean, that's a lot. Yeah.

So Thomas went to prison, and it was horrible. He was an innocent man locked up, likely for the rest of his life, and he'd been labeled a rapist. Mm-hmm. By the way, this is your other big fear. You get so freaked out by wrongful convictions. I do. It's just all your fears.

At the end of this, we're going to open up a box of spiders. No! Because a clown comes to the room with a box of spiders. You would jump out the window. You'd be like, I've had a good run. Sorry. He tried appealing his case, but every single one of his appeals failed. Thomas couldn't wrap his head around what had happened to him.

But eventually he accepted that he would die in prison. He'd never be free again. Oh, that's terrible. He'd never raped anybody, but that didn't matter. He was finished. No one visited him. Aside from like one friend came in the first year that he was in prison. I think part of this was he had grown up in, like, St. Louis and Chicago,

and, you know, he just moved to Oklahoma when this happened to him. Yeah. So I wonder if, you know, it's possible maybe his family wasn't very close or maybe it was just too expensive for them to come visit. So Thomas started to question himself. Was he crazy? Had he done this? Maybe he really was guilty.

Yeah, I think that would. I mean, this is gaslighting in its purest form, right? Yeah. The only thing that kept him sane was his relationship with God. He prayed and prayed and prayed. stayed and prayed. And then, after about 10 years in prison, in late 1992, a local church visited the prison to put on a Christmas musical. Ooh, a pageant of sorts. Oh, the costumes, the singing. I hope they were good. Can you imagine what a bummer that

would be? I bet they weren't. Oh, Brandy, that's quite rude. Probably not, though, right? I mean, I don't know. One of the singers was a woman named Gail Snow. Did they sing Christmas Shoes? And all the inmates were like, I'd rather just sit alone. No, don't.

Oh, I got Brandy. No. No. No. Oh, my God. It's Christmas Eve and these shoes are just her size. All the inmates have nothing better to do. But they're just like, you know what?

I'm going to go back. Yeah. I'm going to go back to myself. It wasn't this terrible song. Gail had bangs that went up and down. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yes.

Yes. She had the curl down and then curl back. How was that a style? I don't know. My mom used to give me those bangs. She did? I mean, my hair didn't really stay that way, so luckily. Yeah, because you have curly hair.

So my mom used to do. What did she do? So she'd curl them, and then she'd fluff them. Oh, yeah. So it's like a layer of curls on top of a layer of curls. Yeah. Hairspray. Mm-hmm.

Gets you that kind of bushy look. Mm-hmm. Just like a lot of bang. You know, a lot of you missed the 80s and early 90s. That's right. And that's a shame. It is. It's a real shame.

So, you know, she had the bangs that went up and down. Woo! And she was single at the time. I'm sorry, that was the style at the time was what I was supposed to say. And then the next line was she was a single mom. Anyway, we all get the idea. We get the idea. And she wasn't blind, Brandy.

She saw Thomas and was like, oh, woo! Hubba, hubba, hubba. Yowza, bazing! Oh, God. That's because Thomas was a good-looking guy. That hubba, hubba, hubba, yowza, bazing. That's because Thomas was a good-looking guy. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Thank you. Thanks.

I think we all got that. He was muscular. He had nice skin. You know, he had a good personality or whatever. That doesn't matter. So Thomas and Gail began writing to each other. Then they started talking on the phone. She started visiting him. And this went on for like two years.

They were in love, and Gail was certain that Thomas hadn't done what he was accused of doing. But Gail's family wasn't so sure. In fact, they thought she was nuts. She was a bag of trail mix with no dried fruit, no M&Ms, and no granola. She was just nuts, Brandy. Cocoa nuts. Wait for it. She was romantically involved.

Did you just spit everywhere? I did. I did. She was romantically involved with a convicted rapist. What the hell was wrong with her? Had the aquanet soaked into her brain? We'll never know. And then Gail and Thomas decided to get married.

And you know what they thought then? That she was coconuts. Yeah, there you go. Boy, you're so eager. Just wait for it, will you? They thought to themselves, how could a white gal like Gail marry a black guy like Thomas? That's right. They were racist, too.

It's just a real fun story. Great. This episode is so good. So uplifting. Oh, well. In June of 1995, the couple got married in the prison chapel. Thomas looked what? June what? I don't know. June 12th? Probably not because I think I would have made mention of that. We're going to say they got married on June 12th. Yeah, in honor of your birthday and Norman's

birthday. Thomas looked dapper in his tux and Gail was all done up. The lace, the pearls, the veil, the bangs. So Gail was now married to a man who she believed was wrongfully incarcerated. And around this time, she became obsessed with a little known trial that I'm sure you've never heard of. It was the Orenthal James Simpson trial. Oh, OJ, huh? I guess the OJ Simpson trial isn't terribly interesting, and truth be told, there's not much known about it.

But the one thing that is noteworthy about that trial is that perms are terrible, and everyone will make fun of you if you get one. True story. True story. God, how rude. If I had to name one other noteworthy event from that trial, it would probably be that during O.J. Simpson's trial, God invented DNA. Or rather, we figured out that DNA was a thing that could be helpful in a court of law. So Gail heard all this, and she was thrilled.

Court of Law. So Gail heard all this and she was thrilled. She mentioned it to Thomas and at one point Thomas's dad showed up for a visit and evidently he'd been following that little known trial too. I mean what are the odds? What are the odds that they would both be watching the biggest televised trial in history? No this was just a little blip. That's why we haven't covered it. Not because we're scared. Yeah. I'm scared. I'll admit it. I'm scared of it. It's too intimidating. It is.

And he's like, hey, Thomas, have you heard about this DNA stuff? And Thomas was like, well, you know, it sounds kind of interesting. You know, maybe it could help. So Gail cashed in her retirement account and used all her money to hire an attorney and get the semen samples that had been on jane's robe tested this process took a long ass time yeah but finally in 1996 the samples came back they weren't a match no thomas's dna did not what happened to my throat? I couldn't replicate that

if I tried. And it's not like that's an important part of the story either. Not a big turning point that his DNA didn't match. Don't worry, everybody. Looking back, Thomas said, it was like I came back from the dead. All of a sudden, I started. Was that your stomach?

It was my throat. Are you competing with me? My throat's the only one that can do weird things right now. He said, all of a sudden, I started to believe in my own innocence. They really didn't have to release me. It was just the fact that someone else knew that I didn't do it. I know. Holy shit.

Yeah. Because he had, like, he was starting to question himself. So, yeah, just the relief he felt that somebody else believed him. Yeah. Wow. Because he'd been accused of and him. Yeah. Wow. Because he'd been accused of and convicted of this terrible thing. Yeah.

So, thanks to this new DNA evidence, a judge granted Thomas Webb a new trial. And the prosecution was like, hmm, well, without the DNA, and we only have that hair guy, and he turned out to be kind of a dipshit, so let's drop the charges, and we only have that hair guy, and he turned out to be kind of a dipshit, so let's drop the charges, okay? By this point, Thomas had been in prison for 13 years. Holy shit. He was now 36 years old, and he was free. He was the first person in all of Oklahoma to have his sentence overturned thanks to DNA evidence. Wow.

So, Thomas and Gail settled into normal married life. He got a job working for General Dynamics, and the job description was so boring that I didn't even write it down. But, you know, life was kind of tough, probably because his job was boring as hell, but also because Thomas had been so focused on getting out of prison but now that he was out nothing felt right like I said he'd grown up in Chicago in st. Louis he'd only moved to Oklahoma just a

little bit before this all happened to him so he didn't have a support system in Oklahoma he had no friends no family had Gail, and that was great, but one person really wasn't enough. Plus, she could never fully understand what he'd gone through. And now that he was no longer in prison, their differences were suddenly super apparent. Oh my gosh. He wanted to go out. He wanted to meet new people. Yeah, he was free.

Yeah. But Gail was a quiet, conservative church lady who loved two things, staying home and going to bed early. Oh, great. Okay, I do wonder how often this sort of thing happens because you're living apart from your spouse. And you can kind of get into a groove. Yeah. And all of a sudden you're thrown together and he's like, he's been locked up for 13 years.

Yeah, the guy wants to go out sometimes. Of course, yeah. Yeesh. So they clashed. Thomas went out and he was like, holy shit, I forgot how fun it is to drink. Drinking's awesome. And he made new friends and he met women. Oh, no.

It got to the point that Thomas wasn't coming home at night. Sometimes he was gone for months at a time. Months at a time? The article said that he started to think of Gail as his warden. Mm-hmm. Because she wanted him home all the time. You know, she wanted kind of like, I don't know, the type of life you usually have when you're in your 30s. Yeah.

His drinking got out of control. He was fired from work. He had nothing going for him. All he wanted to do was numb his pain. Okay, so this was part of the reporting that I thought was so interesting in that article by Jonathan, what's his last name? I can't remember now. We all remember.

Very nice. So it's only relatively recently that people have begun studying the effects of being falsely accused. Turns out it's traumatic as hell. Well, fuck yes it is. Yeah. And you can't just be set free and revert back to the person you once were. People who have been falsely accused often have severe trust issues, anger issues, anxiety, depression, the works.

Yeah. Plus sour cream and chives, you know? Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of like a loaded baked potato. Baked potato. I got it. I'm getting a little hungry.

I got the reference. How was that hummus you had for lunch? Oh, gosh. Everyone could have had french fries. Instead, I had veggies and hummus. The hummus was quite bland. And it looked pretty oily. It was an oily hummus. The hummus was quite bland. And it looked pretty oily. It was an oily hummus.

No. That's not what was going on there. I believe they had added water. Was that what they watered the hummus down? Because if it was a bunch of oil, it would be like, mmm, tasty. Because oil adds some tastiness. You know what doesn't? Water.

Water. Tasty, you know, because oil adds some tastiness. Yeah, no. You know what doesn't? Water. Water. Anyway, but this is not about my very real problems that I suffered today. No.

So as it turns out, and I thought this was kind of interesting, an exonerated person's ability to adapt to their new world basically depends on three factors. Whether they get an apology from the people who prosecuted them, like your guy did, and boy, did he deserve that. Whether they receive compensation for their lost time. And whether the actual perpetrator is caught. Wow. Yeah. And you know,

you don't really have control over any of those things. No, you don't. So Thomas was spiraling. He later said, I didn't know how to live life. I had lost the ability to cope. He said he didn't feel worthy of his freedom. Meanwhile, someone else was spiraling, too.

Jane. Oh, I thought it was Gail. I thought she'd gone to just curling her bangs one way. Uh-huh. And she didn't know how to live anymore. I mean, that is a devastating change to make when you no longer have the bangs going straight up in the air. Yeah, I mean, I don't think Gail was doing too hot either. Okay, great.

Because she had been, what's the word for when your family hates you because you married a black guy? Ostracized? Yeah, that's not the word I was thinking of. Not excommunicated, that's the Mormons. What's the, she was estranged from her family? That's not even the word, but yeah, all of these words work. Work, yeah. Someone, multiple someones, is like

yelling the word. Disowned? Yeah, yeah, okay, I think maybe disowned. Yeah, alright. So, you know. Yeah, but Jane, of course, I hadn't, I will admit I hadn't even thought about Jane at this point, because imagine

the relief you feel when someone is convicted. Exactly. Of the crime. You feel free now. The person's locked up. And then to find out it's the wrong person. Holy shit. Okay.

Please tell us about Jane. And that you put away the wrong person. Yeah. And granted, that's the way she sees it. That's not really what this is no i agree you having some trouble i got like a my bra is like digging in right here jesus christ superstar i'm trying to adjust it thanks for calling me out okay so that's what happened basically i've never seen someone so aggressively go out there and bra.

Well, what happened is it was kind of folded. And so then I tried to like, you know, move it down and it would just unfold. But I moved it way too far down. Right. And so then it was like on my ribs over here. It got caught on your belly button ring. You should probably remove that, honestly. You're going to rip that thing out.

I've got like a chain that goes from my nipple pulley system all the way down to my belly button. Ma'am, I know you get off telling us that, but please, we're in the middle of a very professional podcast. So this whole time, Jane had been convinced that Thomas Webb was the man who'd attacked her. She'd never had any doubts. In fact, she'd gone to all his parole hearings to testify against him. But then that DNA evidence came out, and she was devastated. On the day Thomas was let out of prison, Jane ran to a church crying. She knocked on the door and asked to speak to a pastor. She said she needed God's mercy. She needed forgiveness and mercy. But that's not her fault. I agree.

I think this was shoddy police work. Yeah. And then combined with junk science. Yeah. But I think I would probably feel the same way absolutely there's you know and it's it's funny it's almost like she would be a bad person if she didn't feel guilty you know you but then you've got the trauma of being raped and oh god yeah that person's still out there jesus this is terrible yeah this whole. Nobody listened to this episode.

So now Jane had the trauma from the first attack, and she felt so guilty about Thomas had she really ID'd an innocent man. It was almost too terrible for her to wrap her head around. So Jane was dealing with all that, and in the meantime, Thomas and Gail were still struggling in their marriage, but trying to get some justice. They worked together to convince the state legislature to pass a bill that would compensate people who had been wrongly convicted, like your guy, who was such a great guy. Yeah, $300,000. The legislature passed that bill twice. And both times, the governor just happened to have a gigantic stick lodged up his ass.

He vetoed it. And so he vetoed it twice. But finally, in 2003, a new governor got a look at the bill. And unlike the other guy who tragically died from a splinter to the back of his eyeballs, this guy didn't have a stick lodged up his ass. So that's nice. Yeah. So he signed it.

And that allowed for wrongfully convicted people to receive up to $175,000 from the state of Oklahoma. Total? No matter how long? Up to. That is the max. Oh, no. Yeah. That's crazy. That is the max. Oh, no. Yeah. That's crazy. That is crazy.

But to Thomas, it was really more about getting the state to admit that they'd been wrong. Yeah. It wasn't necessarily about the money, although you should be very well compensated for being wrongfully convicted. Yes. The day the bill became a law, Thomas and Gail went to the state capital to celebrate.

And lawmakers applauded them. It was such a nice photo op, such a happy time. But when Thomas went to apply for the money,

he got a shitty letter back telling him that he wasn't entitled to any compensation because the law wasn't retroactive. Fuck off!

Mm-hmm. By the way, legend has it that the person who wrote that letter now has poison ivy permanently affixed to their butthole, which is the only fair punishment for writing such a douchey letter. I think we can all agree on that. Can you imagine? No. Thomas was beside himself. He felt utterly helpless. Gail wanted to fight back, but he said, I'm done with this. Screw it. He began drinking

more heavily than before. Pretty soon he started smoking pot, and that just made his depression worse. And then he tried meth. And, yeah, I think we all remember that, Rachel Lee Cook, PSA. Methamphetamines is meth, right? Yes. I don't know much about drugs. Is meth short for methamphetamines? I never get never get that right hey accuracy is important on this podcast just ask the people of beaufort south carolina that's right and beaufort north carolina at one point he got arrested for driving, and later he was arrested for drug possession.

This was all so hard on Gail. She wanted their marriage to work, but Thomas was no longer the man she'd married. So she divorced him. And that's how Thomas Webb became homeless. Oh, no. He said, I didn't fit in the world that I was trying to run from, and I didn't fit in in the world that I was running toward either. But then, in the fall of 2012, after he'd been out for 16 years, Thomas says he had an epiphany. He was walking down the street holding everything he owned in a duffel bag.

He had nothing, no job, no home, no money, no wife. He felt lower than he'd ever felt. And he stopped to pray. He was 52 now, and he didn't want his life to end this way. So it didn't. He applied for disability, and he got it based on PTSD. And after that, he applied for public housing and he got that too. And one of his friends who he'd used to do drugs with said that she was in a 12-step program and she asked him if he'd like to join. So he did. But working the program was incredibly difficult because drugs had numbed him. They'd let him escape. And without them, he had to feel everything, every uncomfortable, raw feeling.

But eventually, one drug-free day turned into two, and two turned into three. And after a while, he had weeks of sobriety under his belt. and after a while he had weeks of sobriety under his belt. He'd been off drugs for about six months when a reporter from Oklahoma Watch named Sean Hiddle visited him. And Sean asked him, So they found DNA at the crime scene and, you know, it wasn't yours. Did they ever catch the actual rapist? And Thomas was like, I honestly don't know.

And so the reporter went to the police and the police were twiddling their thumbs and humming Yankee Doodle Dandy. I don't know. But they were like, now that you mentioned it, I suppose we could run it through the national database. Oh, could you? Yeah. You think that might be a nice thing to do? Man, why the...

Okay, anyway, here we go. So the reporter was like a nice thing to do? Man, why the... Okay, anyway. Okay, all right. Here we go. So the reporter was like, yes, well idea, chums. Let's go. So they ran it through the database. And there was a match. Yep. Yeah.

All of a sudden, decades after the crime, they knew who had raped Jane. It was Gilbert Dwayne Harris. They knew who had raped Jane. It was Gilbert Dwayne Harris. Gilbert had been living in Norman, Oklahoma, and working for the city as a sanitation worker at the time of the attack. He had since moved to Mississippi. But here's a fun fact.

It turns out that investigators had already made the correct DNA match way back in 2006. What? Yeah, they'd known that Gilbert was the real rapist for eight years and just hadn't done shit about it. They're like, Mississippi's kind of far away. Oh, look, he's not in shouting distance. Do we give a shit? Nah. Oh, my gosh.

But don't worry. Gilbert Dwayne Harris was just a guy who'd done one bad thing in his whole life. It was perfectly fine that he'd been left to, you know, run the streets for years and years. Here's how I know that's not true. Huh? It's because his DNA was in the system. He did that as a volunteer thing. Yeah, so he's garbage.

Yeah. He raped Jane, and then the next year he raped a 13-year-old girl. Yeah. But he got caught that time and was offered a plea deal, and so he was sentenced to seven years in prison. Then he got out and broke in somewhere with a gun and went to prison for that. And then he got out again. And in 2004, he was charged with molesting a nine-year-old girl. Oh, my gosh.

And that case wasn't prosecuted. And that's just the stuff he got caught doing. Right. I mean, I feel like that's necessary to say. Yeah. But now that investigators had this DNA match and a reporter breathing down their necks, it was time for Gilbert to pay for what he'd done to Jane. But first, they needed Jane's cooperation.

So they got her to come to the station, and she was super nervous. She was sort of prepared to hear that they'd found the DNA match. I mean, that seemed like a possibility. But she wasn't prepared to hear that in the time he'd been out free, the man who had attacked her had done the same thing to young girls. She felt horrific guilt. If she'd ID'd the right guy, those little girls wouldn't have been attacked. if she'd ID'd the right guy, those little girls wouldn't have been attacked. So her friend said that Jane felt so much guilt.

It was as if, oh, God, it was as if she had, like, let that happen, like, seen it happen, right, and done nothing. The other thing that I think is so interesting was even though Thomas had been exonerated thanks to the DNA, Jane had always clung to the hope that maybe she'd been right all along. I think it was just too horrible to consider that he was the wrong guy. Absolutely. She said, I did it for my own sanity, saying, no, I couldn't have been wrong, even though I knew I had been wrong. In Jane's eyes, this was all her fault. What happened to Thomas, what happened to the other girls, it was all on her. They'd probably need her to testify again. And she didn't want to. She didn't want to relive the trauma. But the more she thought about it, she worried that if she didn't do this,

he would just attack more women and girls. Yeah. So she said, OK, she would cooperate with the prosecution. But by the way, after she had this meeting with them, She just went home and didn't leave the house for days and days and days. So in 2014, the D.A. charged Gilbert with first degree rape and forcible sodomy. And he was forced to come back to Norman, Oklahoma. But Gilbert was like, nope, you got the wrong guy again. I didn't do it. And his attorney was like, shut up, Gilbert. I got this.

And the lawyer argued that it didn't matter whether Gilbert had raped Jane. Why is that now? Because it had happened 30 years ago and the statute of limitations had expired. So who cares? Am I right? Okay. Yeah. Fucking statute of limitations.

I know. I know. It's fucking bullshit. Second, shouldn't the statute of limitations been paused because somebody else was convicted and then that was overturned? No. No? No?

Not according to this attorney. So while that super fun argument was working its way through the judicial system, Thomas was invited to speak at Heritage Hall High School for an event hosted by the Oklahoma Innocence Project. And Jane just happened to see that event advertised on Facebook because she had graduated from that high school. So she figured, like, okay, this is a sign from God. Yeah. She needed to go there and apologize to Thomas. Oh, my gosh.

I just got goosebumps. Yeah. So she showed up at this event. And, oh, God, I'm getting goosebumps, too. And he was on stage, stage like they're kind of waiting for things to to happen and she goes up and like taps him on the shoulder and was like could i talk to you so she brought a copy of a memoir with her and it was about a white woman who was raped as a college student in the early 80s and picked the wrong man out of a lineup.

The book is called Picking Cotton, and it talks about how the man was wrongfully convicted and spent more than 10 years in prison before DNA exonerated him. Does that sound familiar? Yeah. Holy shit. And it's ultimately about how these two people reconciled and became friends. Oh, my gosh. So Jane got that book and a card and she wrote down her phone number. And so she and Thomas went out into the hallway together and she handed him the book

and she said, I am so sorry. So very sorry. And he looked at her and for a while they didn't say anything. And then Thomas took a step forward and wrapped his arms around her. And he said, I forgive you. Oh my gosh. I forgave you a long time ago. Oh my gosh. I know. So they stood in the hallway crying and hugging. Yeah. They'd both held such animosity toward one another. For a while, Thomas had blamed her. And, of course, for years she had thought he was the man who raped her. But that moment in the hallway was a turning point for them both.

moment in the hallway was a turning point for them both especially for thomas because no one in this entire process had ever apologized to him but she just had yeah he felt a wave of compassion for her he said it wasn't her fault that she got raped and it wasn't her fault that she went through a system that allowed and facilitated a mistaken identity. Oh, my gosh. After the event was over, Thomas went home and he called Jane and they talked for hours. Wow. There was so much to say. Oh, you're crying. I think that's just – I think that – I mean, I just can't even imagine that moment.

Like, that would be so difficult for her to do. And the – it's absolutely not her fault. Right. But for him to just immediately be, like, so forgiving is just such a huge thing. It's incredible. I don't think anybody – I don't think a lot of people would be able to do that. Right. But for him to just immediately be like so forgiving is just such a huge thing. It's incredible. I don't think a lot of people would be able to do that. No. Yeah. It's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. They came to understand that they were both victims of Gilbert Harris. Yeah. So they made a plan. Gilbert's preliminary hearing was coming up, and they would go to it together. And they'd sit right next to each other because they were both his victims.

But then, in May of 2015, just a few days before the hearing, a judge agreed with Gilbert's defense attorney. The statute of limitations had expired. Oh, no. Gilbert was free to go. Holy shit. And so just like that, he walked free. No one, not the DA or the police, bothered to tell Jane or Thomas. They found out when Jane checked on the case docket online. That's terrible. So brief pause. I didn't write this part down. She found out he was out and she was terrified.

Yeah. Absolutely terrified. So she made a bunch of phone calls and she was like, look, whatever it takes to get him out of here and back to Mississippi, I will pay for his bus ticket. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine she's I will pay for his bus ticket. Yeah. I mean, can you imagine? She's offering to pay for his bus ticket. Yeah. Luckily, they figured out he was back in Mississippi.

Oh, my gosh. I mean, bad news for everyone in Mississippi. Yeah. But yeah, there you go. Holy shit. So Gilbert went back to Mississippi and Thomas and Jane had to go back to their normal lives. Except their lives were a little better now. So Jane had been having these horrible chest pains for a really long time.

And she just ignored them. Yeah. But after that event where she finally got to say to him, to his face, I am sorry. And he forgave her. She decided to get checked out. And she had to have quadruple bypass surgery. Oh, my gosh. But she finally after that, she finally felt like she could take care of herself. Yeah. She had something to live for. Yeah. Another thing that happened at that event was that one of the people in the audience was an executive at Love's Travel Shops and Country Stores.

You know those? Yeah, yeah. The big, like, truck stops. Yeah. Yeah. And he offered Thomas a job organizing their shipments. So Thomas really liked his job at Love's. He got a decent wage.

He got benefits. liked his job at Love's. He got a decent wage. He got benefits. And he decided to hire a lawyer to fight the state of Oklahoma for some compensation for the 13 years that he had been wrongfully imprisoned. So that got the ball rolling, but that would take forever, obviously. But in the meantime, Thomas focused on enjoying his life. He went to 12-step meetings every day, and he discovered that he loved watching documentaries and sports and gardening. And every now and then, he and Jane met up for lunch. The two had a special bond. He called her sis, and she said she loves him like a brother. Wow. For Jane, meeting Thomas was the single most important thing she'd done in her recovery. And in 2017, with help from his legal team, Thomas finally got compensation for the time that he was wrongfully imprisoned.

Yeah, but what, like $12 since it's maxed out at $175,000? He got $175,000. He got $175,000. All right. But in order to get that, he had to agree that he would never pursue any more claims against the state. But I'm not happy with that. You're not happy with that. But he honestly seems to be fine with that because it wasn't about the money.

He said, for the first time, the state of Oklahoma has accepted the fact that I have been wronged. That gives me closure, a feeling that justice and my frame of reference has been done, that amends have been made. Yeah. So he did say how he plans to spend the money. And I believe part of it was to pay back Gail. Yeah. And they still have contact. Mm-hmm.

And that's the story of Thomas Webb. Oh. Yeah. That was really good. I just think it's, he sounds like an amazing person. Yeah. He's actually very funny which i realized i didn't you know really highlight that but he seems to have a very good personality and i just i don't

understand how somebody can get through this i just don't yeah i would have no sense of humor if this happened to me same and i can't say that I'd be like, I forgive you. Yeah, no. Yeah. Absolutely not. And poor Jane, too. Oh, yeah. Oh, to get no justice.

I know. That's infuriating. Fuck the statute of limitations. Yeah, fuck the statute of limitations right in the face. Yeah. That's a thing people say. They sure do. I mean, ironically, you're kind of describing a sexual assault.

Well, shit. But it's okay. The statute of limitations just ran up on that, so who cares, right? Exactly. It's like it didn't happen at all. Yeah. Great. Whew. Great. Whew.

Hoo-wee. Let's do a smooth transition into another ad, shall we? Absolutely. Oh, my God. What a dark episode. Oh, God. It was terrible. Whew.

Let's take some light questions from our Discord. Yeah, let's. These are the people who have signed up on our Patreon. Mm-hmm. And you should, too. Yes. Boy, I really gave that plug my all, didn't I? That's exactly right.

Marisek, not Marissa K., wants to know, Kristen, have you been watching FBoy Island? No, I have not. But I feel like I should, right? Right. You 100%. I can't watch it. I can't handle it. Why?

You don't like fuckboys? I can't handle the cringe. It's too cringey. How do you know it's going to be cringey? I just know. The name is Fuckboy Island. Yeah, of course it's going to be cringey. Yeah.

That seems right up your aisle. Okay. Right up your aisle. Is that what people say? Right up your aisle. Okay. Right up your aisle. Is that what people say? Right up your alley. Oh, no, I snorted. You know, as soon as I said it, I was like, that's not quite right. That's not it.

Hufflepuff77 says, today my four-year-old told me she wants to be a banana when she grows up. What crazy things did you all want to be when you grow up? Did you have any crazy? I think that's so cute that she wants to be a banana. That is cute. You know what's not cute? What? What I told my mom.

What did you want to be? I have no memory of this. Evidently, I told my mom that I wanted to dance on a table in a gold bikini for men. Yeah. So, obviously, I heard that from somewhere because that is a profession. That is. That is. I don't think I really ever had the people skills for that profession, though.

Greedy Will Beaver asks, concerning brownies, edges or centerpieces, which are best? I don't discriminate. No hate here, baby. Okay. I do like the edge the best. But David will only eat the edge pieces because he's a real weird about brownies. They have to be very done for him to eat them. He doesn't like a gooey brownie.

And so he sticks it to the edge and I'll eat the middle pieces. That's so weird. Yeah, he doesn't like. Okay. This is his weird thing. How does he feel about cookie dough? He doesn't eat cookie dough. What?

He doesn't eat any raw dough at all. He won't eat cake batter. He won't eat cookie dough. He won't eat brownie batter. What? No. Why? He thinks it's not safe.

Oh, my gosh. His seventh grade home economics teacher scared the shit out of him. He's going to be fine. That's what I tell him all the time, and it's delicious. You know what? If I were you, I would not tell him that. I'd be like, you know what? More batter for me.

I'd be like, you're really living on the. Yeah, someone's going to have to drive one of us to the hospital. That's right. So, you know, only one of us can eat this cake batter. Oh, I want to answer this. Okay. Lady in blonde asked Brandy, how did you feel being a plus-size woman and being pregnant? I'm in that boat now and having trouble with it. I already am seeing some fat bias in the medical system. I have to get a GTT done twice because of my weight and, fat bias when I made my initial OB appointment. And I told my doctor that. Oh, good. you're anxious. And I was like, you're going to tell me that I'm fat and old and that those are going to be complications to my pregnancy. And you are going to label me high risk because of

those things. When in actuality, my only high risk factor is that I have thyroid disease, which is a real risk factor in pregnancy. And she was like, she's like, no, I'm not going to tell you either of those things. She's like, you can have a perfectly healthy pregnancy at your weight and at your age. She's like, I don't have perfectly healthy pregnancy at your weight and at your age. She's like, I don't have any concerns about those things. And so having a provider who who treated me that way was huge. And then also I actually joined a Facebook group for plus size pregnant women. And I got a lot of support in that.

That was super helpful because, yeah, there is there is And I got a lot of support in that. That was super helpful because, yeah, there is there is there's like a ton of bias. And there's like I feel like as a plus size woman, there's always like my whole life, you know, you're focused on what your weight is and like you have very little control over your weight while you are pregnant. No matter what you do, you have very little control over. And so, yeah, I think that's really, really a struggle for a lot of people just mentally feeling like you're out of control with your body. And yeah, your body doesn't always look the same as other pregnant women. But so, yeah, having support from other women who are in that same thing is huge. So I don't know that any of that was helpful at all. I bet it was. Okay. I think straight up

saying to your health care provider. Yeah. Right off. Okay. I think straight up saying to your health care provider, right off the bat. Yes, and if you have a health care provider who is not respectful of that or open to hearing your concerns about that, find a new health care provider, if at all possible. How'd you find yours? So I actually specifically found a doctor

who specialized in high-risk pregnancy because I thought that's what I would need based solely on my thyroid disease. It's actually kind of a miracle that I got pregnant at all because of my thyroid disease. It's really hard to get pregnant with thyroid disease because your hormone levels are all over the place. And so I was really concerned about that. I wanted somebody who could handle that and knew what to look for. And so I just picked a high risk doctor. And I thought, OK, if I go to her and I just tell her my concerns, like I just put it out there, which was huge for me because like. Yeah, that does not seem like

you at all. And I was super anxious. I was I think I was like literally shaking when I was like telling her. I can promise you you were because you were almost shaking just retelling the story. And so, yeah, I think I was like, okay, I will go to this appointment. I will make this appointment with this doctor and I will, whatever her reaction is, will gauge if I stay here for my pregnancy or not. And like, I couldn't have asked for a better doctor. She worked through my anxieties with me through my whole pregnancy. Like, I think it's so, so important.

And it's really important to know that as long as your health care system allows it, that if you don't fit with that health care provider, find someone who you have a better fit with. Yeah. In my pregnancy group that I was in, I saw all kinds of people who were being told horrible things from their health care providers. And it's like, go find somebody else if at all possible. Yeah. Yeah. Personally, I really love the term geriatric pregnancy. Yes.

Although, I got to say, I'm surprised that you were so surprised that you got pregnant. Because, like, didn't on your first date David brag to you about his super sperm? Everyone has a talent. That's what I always say. That's right. Okay, I just made a funny what okay steer queer y'all says favorite period drama and i was thinking like dramatic periods but then they say movie or tv show and i realized oh you're not talking about like a moment where you maybe acted acted irrationally because you were on your period?

Remember that house I burned down? Turns out I just had my period that day. I just had my period. Women are fun. Oh, I feel like this is a good question for you, Kristen. Okay. Silicon wants to know, what's some drama going on between your pets right now? Oh, my God. Okay, here's to know, what's some drama going on between your pets right now? Oh, my God. Okay, here's the drama, everyone.

Good grief. So this is not going to be interesting to anybody, but here we go. So we've got the two cats, the two dogs. One of the cats is quite old, and she is picky. She only eats, like, the most expensive cat food in all the land yeah we have to have it like special ordered it's ridiculous here's the thing kit our skinniest dog loves this cat food as well so we have like done everything we could to try to keep the cat food away from the dog, but it's kind of hard because Boo's very old.

She can't jump anymore, so we can't just put it somewhere high. Yeah. It's a whole thing. Then we found this brilliant device that, like, keeps your door, that stops your door from opening very widely, so just a cat can get in and out not a dog. So we thought yada yada yada yesterday Kit broke into the guest room

and ate six cans of this expensive ass cat food on top of her dog food. Also while she was in there she ate all the cat turds out of the oh god

it's just it's disgusting. It is disgusting. Boo's very mad. Dottie's jealous because Dottie also loves the cat food but but, you know, she's too big. She can't get in there. And Kit is just happy as a clam.

And Kiki, you know, Kiki's pretty spry. She can bat the dogs in the face, but, you know, evidently can't stop them from eating all her food. The Mug and Munch wants to know, when is the ASMR haircut program airing? Yes. Never! Excellent question. No one wants to? Yes. Never. Excellent question. No one wants to see that. Yes, they do.

No. Everyone, I have been trying for years to convince Brandy to set up a little camera in her salon where she can do ASMR haircuts. She refuses because she doesn't know good business ideas ever. She's also turned down It Works and all my Beachbody stuff. So, it's devastating. Stop trying to be my coach. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Looks like someone's going to roast you here, Brandy.

Oh, no. Did you know when Lincoln was president, once you know Brandy, why in the past did you give Kristen crap for saying how sexy Norm is? But now you talk about how sexy David is. Unfair. Apologies are needed. And like 12 exclamation points. Mm-hmm.

Yes, yes. Apologies are needed. Are they? Have I shamed you for finding your husband attractive? I believe you have. I apologize. This apology doesn't feel super sincere. I'm going to need you to grovel more.

Thank you. I know the answer to this, I think, for you. What? Labia Lounge. One of them. Kristen, who was your first cartoon crush slash sexual awakening? Mine was between Aladdin and the Fox and Robin Hood. Oh, my gosh.

I think I know yours. What is it? Gaston. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Although, I thought the Fox and Robin Hood was pretty hot, too. That was a hot fox. That was a hot fox.

Foxy. Foxy fox. But, yeah, Aladdin. Yeah, Aladdin, very attractive. That little vest. Uh-huh. Yep. yeah, Aladdin. Yeah, Aladdin. Very, very attractive. That little vest. Uh-huh. Yep. Sarah, not Sarah Middlebush, says, I work in a museum.

It's my passion and I love it. What's been your most memorable museum visit? Where was it? And what do you remember from your time there? Oh, my God. I fucking love museums. I love museums, too. Well, you love the gift shop.

I do. I love museums, too. Well, you love the gift shop. I do. Okay, so my favorite museums. Although, you know what? Okay. Favorite serious museums. Holocaust Museum in D.C.

Shoot. The place where Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. Yeah, it's the Civil Rights Museum. Yeah. Yeah. That was a great museum. Yeah. Fun museums.

Gouler Psychiatric Museum is one of mine. In St. Joseph. In St. Joseph, yeah. In Independence, Missouri, there is a hair museum. I want to go so bad. You need to go. I've never been. It is crazy.

It is the kookiest place on earth. Yeah. So back in Victorian times, you know, you couldn't always have a picture of your dead loved ones. So what would you do? You'd take a big chunk of their hair and make art out of it. And it is the creepiest shit ever. And there's this lady in Independence, Missouri, who collects all kinds of hair art. It's on all her walls.

She claims she has a scrap of Abe Lincoln's hair. I don't know, man. But anyway, it's a wild time for her. It's a wild time. I want to go so bad. Oh. Bergita, I'm guessing. Or Bergita.

Either way. What's your now favorite Oreo flavor? Do you get into the flavored Oreos or do you like the OGs? Well, of course, everyone loves the original Oreos. Double stuffs. No, that's too much stuff. The mint ones are my favorite. Oh, I do like the mint ones.

I was going to say I'm not a big fan of the flavored ones. Okay, but that's now that you've said that. But it's a lie. You realize you were lying. And you need to apologize another time on this podcast. I love the lemon ones. Yeah, those lemon ones are good. They are so good.

I just got these like Java chip ones. Not so good, huh? I didn't like them. I like how you said it softly in case the Oreos could hear us and get offended. Here's how much I didn't like them.

Did you throw them away? I did. I ate two and threw them away. Wow. Couldn't even bring them to work and share them with the gang. So here's the real story. I ate two and then I was like, huh.

Maybe I'm just not in the mood for them. So then I put them in my pantry and there they sat. Okay. Yeah. And so then we just cleaned out the pantry and I threw them in the trash. That's a shame. Yeah. It's a real waste of Oreos. Okay. Yeah. And so then we just cleaned out the pantry and I threw them in the trash. That's a shame. Yeah. It's a real waste of Oreos.

Yep. You know what I think we should do now? Supreme Court inductions? Yeah. And, you know, we were just talking about cookies and we are still reading people's names and favorite cookies. You know, evidently some people want to move on to a new topic. I love this topic. I love this topic, too, because I'm constantly hearing new cookies

that I've never heard of before, and I'm like, you should probably look that up and make those. Yeah, for research purposes. That's exactly right. I'm just kind of stalling while I get to the right episode here. Me, too. Me, too. Oh, here we go.

Oh, here we go. I see your little pink, Kristen. Yeah, you do. All right. Kate Maher. Peanut butter. Jackie Mullen. I like cake because I burn cookies.

Alex H. Discontinued powdery lemon Girl Scout cookies. Rest in peace. I don't know what those are. They're called Savannah Smiles. You just skipped right over that part. Did you think that was her name? Oh, yeah.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry,. They're called Savannah Smiles. You just skipped right over that part. Did you think that was her name? Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Alex. What? Savannah Smiles. Okay, I think I'm, if I'm remembering, I think they're like lemon coolers. Did you ever have lemon coolers? I don't think so. Oh, my gosh.

They're these little, yeah, they're these little lemon cookies, and they're coated in powdered sugar. And they're like. Is it like a lemon bar, but just. No, it's not. It's not. It's cookie. Mm-hmm. There's no... It's cookie. Mm-hmm.

There's no curd involved. Okay, I apologize. Very crisp, lemony flavor. Okay. Okay, anyway. Daisy and Tofu are cuties. Is that your real name? I don't think so.

Dark chocolate chip. Hester. Vegan chocolate chip oatmeal raisin. Mm-hmm. Crisp. Parnois. Almond shortbread thumbprints with raspberry jam. No jam in the cookies.

Yes, jam. Jam it up. Pump up the jam. Kristen McConnell. Meatball cookie. What the? No, I don't want that. Okay, she says, it does not have meatballs, I promise. It better not.

It's kind of like a chocolate chip cookie, but with nutmeg, allspice, and cloves. I don't know, man. Meatball cookie does not sound good. I don't think I'm gonna pass on the meatball cookie. Thank you, though. Stormy Lee. The what? Chocolate chips, butterscotch chips, pretzels, potato chips, and

bacon. I own a small home business, and this is one of my most popular cookies. No. Well, I would try it. I would try that. Yeah, okay. A little sweet, a little salty. Yeah.

I like how we always say, we'll try it. No one's offering us. No, no one has offered us any of their cookies. Megan Berry. Peanut butter cookies with chocolate-covered pretzels and an M&M nose so it looks like a reindeer. Oh, that's cute. April Rogers. White chocolate chip macadamia.

Becky Rush. Basic white grilled chocolate chip. Nicole Bivens. Browned butter toffee chocolate chip. Oh, I love toffees. I bet that's probably pretty good. Amber McAlee. Giant eagle thumbprint cookies.

Does it taste like eagle? Made with real eagle. It's expensive and illegal to consume, but it is good. They should call them illegal eagle cookies. That's a free idea. Yeah. Who was it who owns a bakery? There you go. There you go. They should call them Illegal Eagle Cookies. That's a free idea. Yeah. Who was it who owns a bakery?

There you go. There you go. Illegal Eagle Cookies. Don't sue us when you're inevitably shut down. Maddie White. Oatmeal Raisin Cookies. Courtney Fountain. Half-Baked M&M Cookie. Anna Kempke.

Sugar Cookie. Tanya Anna. M&M Cookies Steven Plukowski Zingerman's Funky Chunkly I'm sorry. Zingerman's Funky Chunky Chocolate Cookie What's Zingerman's?

Is that a bakery? You know. Well, probably. It's probably not a butcher. You're right. Claudia My butcher makes You're right. Claudia. My butcher makes the best cookies.

Made with grilled meatballs. And chunks of eagle. Eagle. That is one expensive cookie. Okay, so Claudia, she likes noppers.

Noppers? What's a nopper? I don't know what a nopper is. Sounds maybe dirty anyway. Gigi. Snickerdoodles. Brooke Scott. Turtle cookies.

Made with real turtles. Dina. Italian lace cookies. Made with real lace. Welcome to the Supreme Court. I think there's like a correlation for how serious our cases are and how goofy we get toward the end. Yes, no, I think that's absolutely correct. It was simply too much.

I think we are glad to be done. Yes. Ha. I sounded like Stuart's mom just then. I don't wanna. Stuart! Thank you for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please

find us on social media. Are you about to explode this episode? That's my thing. No, I'm kidding. You sure? No, I'm good. Okay.

I know rumblies and the tumbly. All right. All right. All right. Tell them about our social media presence. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a

five-star rating and review and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited

vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the article The Wrong Man by John Shoup for NBC News, the book Rectify, a story of healing and redemption after wrongful conviction by Laura Bazelon, and the National Registry of Exonerations. Yeah, my guy also in the National Registry of Exonerations. Yeah, my guy also in the National Registry for Exonerations. Isn't that a cool fun fact? That's really fun.

I love it. I got my info from a series of articles by Anne O'Neill for CNN, as well as an article by Mara Boveson for the New York Daily News, the Associated Press, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.