Let's Go To Court! - 184: 2002!

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

Lydia Fairchild was in a tight spot, financially. She had two young children, was pregnant with a third, and she was unemployed. So she applied for welfare. As part of Washington state’s application process, she and the children’s father both submitted DNA samples to confirm that they were the children’s biological parents. But the DNA tests revealed shocking news. She was not the children’s mother. Then Brandi tells us about a murder that hit close to home. It was the spring of 2002, and Amanda Sharp and her friend Kevin Gunby didn’t want to go to school. So the pair skipped class and headed over to Kevin’s house. Hours later, when their friend Brad Jaynes showed up at Kevin’s house, Kevin delivered startling news. He told Brad that he’d killed Amanda. Then he showed him her body.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary, “The Twin Inside Me”  “She’s her own twin,” from ABC News “The You in Me,” by Sam Kean for Psychology Today “The case of Lydia Fairchild and her chimerism,” by Alexis Darby for The Embryo Project Encyclopedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “SM North students trying to cope with classmate’s death” by Kati Jividen, The Kansas City Star “Slain girl remembered as creative, adventurous” by Richard Espinoza and Kati Jividen, The Kansas City Star “Trial date set for teen in slaying of girl, 17” by Tony Rizzo, The Kansas City Star “Teenager is convicted of first degree murder” by Tony Rizzo, The Kansas City Star “Fairway man gets life sentence for strangling girlfriend” by Tony Rizzo, The Kansas City Star “State v. Gunby” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about welfare fraud and i'll be talking about

another murder in johnson county my goodness it's amazing you're able to stay alive over there fighting off killers left and right yeah well i'm glad you're able to make it over here to missouri took my life in my hands we're kind of hyper today. We are. Well, you know what? Okay. We just recorded the bonus episode. That's right. A couple days ago. Yeah.

So we're just like. Yeah. I feel like on these weeks where we do the two episodes, we're just kind of like hyped up and. It's like we see the end in sight. That's exactly what it is. It's like. We're written. Yeah.

We're going to do a strong finish. That's right. I've got that. What's that called? You got that goo? No, I never eat the goo. You don't eat the goo? No, I do.

Like, I have, no one cares. People care. Okay, well. People want to know what you do. People want to know what you do. That's what I was going to say. I do the goo. No, I do like the honey stingers.

It's basically like eating a gummy bear every couple miles. You eat an edible every couple of miles? What if you did? That would be, oh man, I'd probably just go super slow. Yeah. But think I was going at a good pace. You're just in your head, you're just killing it. Yep, yep.

But they're pulling the port-a-potties away. But they're pulling the porta-potties away. Anyway, welcome to this week's episode, everyone. That's right. Here we are at Let's Go to Court, the podcast that you think is just okay. You know what I almost said? Welcome to the bonus episode. This is not.

We already did that. We already recorded that on Monday. Two days ago. And you know how you almost said? Welcome to the bonus episode. This is not. We already did that. We already recorded that on Monday. Two days ago. And you know how you hear that? Oh. You sign up for our Patreon. At the $5 level, you get all kinds of bonus episodes. All kinds.

We recorded the 26th bonus episode this week. God damn. Okay. On average, those are two plus hours. So we're talking 55 hours of bonus content minimum. Monday night's episode was three hours. Okay. We got to chatting. Yeah.

There was. There was some chit chat. There was. But if you want even more of us, and of course you do, you can sign all the way up. You know, I'm just going to skip the middle tier. $10 level on Patreon. You know, I'm just going to skip the middle tier. $10 level on Patreon. You get bonus episodes.

You get bonus Zoom calls with us. You get a sticker. You get our lovely autographs. You get episodes a day early and ad free, and you get 10% off on merch. What's that? Merch? Speaking of merch, we still have a handful.

There are serious limited quantities left of the Skeezys Gunch Tank and the Juvenile Bigfoot hoodie. So get them while they're hot. And the t-shirt. Get them while they're in stock. Oh, yeah, and the t-shirt. Of course, the t-shirt. Don't forget the t-shirt. Come on.

With our faces, our cartoon faces. Who doesn't want a t-shirt with our faces on it? I ask you. When I first picked those up from the t-shirt place, the guy was like, oh, are you the tall one? And I said, yes, yes, I am. He did not want my autograph. That's weird. But I blew him a kiss.

You did? No, I did not. I was just like. You said, yes, I am. Do not make eye contact with me. Very important. My cartoon face is on a shirt, sir. Right?

God. All right. You gonna tell us about some welfare fraud? Maybe I am. Okay. You seem a little surprised. Okay. Okay. surprised. Meh. Meh.

Okay. Meh. All right. Well. Tell us about welfare fraud. First of all, thank you to Tomcat in the Discord for suggesting this case to Brandy. Oh. This is the second episode in a row that someone has suggested a case to you, and I've just taken it.

I love it because then I enjoy hearing it. Also, a big thank you to a documentary. What's the title of the documentary? I can't tell you. It gives the whole thing away. Wonderful. So, you know, just sit tight. Yeah.

Also, thank you to ABC News for their reporting, which didn't have a byline, and also the title gave the whole thing away. Excellent. So thank you. Thank you. Big vague thank yous. Alright, so it's a brandy case about welfare fraud. So someone kills someone and then continues to collect their benefits after their

death. Interesting theory. Let's see how it pans out. My theory last episode did not pan out at all. So if you'd like to hear it, please check out the bonus episode where I was very confident in my predictions. Oh, and it was hilarious. Yeah.

Picture it. We're in Washington State. It's 2002. And Lydia Fairchild was in a tough spot because she couldn't find the perfect cropped jacket to wear with her low-rise jeans. That is, that is a tough spot. I'm just kidding.

That was just a hilarious joke about the fashions of the early 2000s. We have again stumbled upon a theme. Are you serious? 2002. Oh, weird. Yes. How many episodes in a row are we going to do accidental themes?

I don't know. Okay. All right. But for real, Lydia was in a tough spot financially. She'd had her first child when she was 21, and a year later she had another child, and now it was one year after that and she was pregnant again. The father of her three children was her longtime, kind of on-again, off-again boyfriend, Jamie Townsend. And they were officially off again, for good. So Lydia, she had two young children. She was pregnant with a third. She was single,

and she was unemployed. So she applied for welfare. As part of the application, the state of Washington required that in order to get financial assistance for the children, she and the kids had to submit DNA samples to establish maternity and paternity. No big deal. They did what was asked of them and waited on the results. And after a while, the Department of Social Services gave Lydia a call. They said they needed her to come down to the office. And Lydia was like, it's a DNA test. You can't just tell me the results over the phone.

But the person on the phone was insistent. She needed to come down to the office. So Lydia was like, okay. So she went to the office and was led into a back room with a social worker and a representative from the DA's office. What? For welfare? Yeah. Alright.

What? Hmm. These people were so serious. For a while, they just stared at her. And she was like, uh, the DNA test? Yeah. When we got there.

And the guy said, well, Jamie is the children's father. We know that with 99% certainty. DNA proves it. And Lydia was like, okay, yeah, great. Great. They just stared at her some more. And finally they said, the only problem is you're not their mother. What?

And Lydia laughed. Of course her children were her children. Yeah, had she given birth to them? Yeah. She sure had. So there's a problem with the DNA test? Bottom line, Brandy, is this was no laughing matter the social worker and the representative from the da's office were dead serious they said the dna proves you are not the mother of these children

they started asking all kinds of questions is your name really lydia fairchild where did you get these children did your sister have these children and now you're raising them as your own? It's time to come clean, Lydia. Just tell us the truth and it'll be easier on all of us. Admit it. You're a kidnapper.

Or, oh God, maybe something worse. Maybe you're trying to commit welfare fraud. That's worse than a kidnap. Yeah, much worse. Worse than murder, even. The bureaucrats were very worried about this because a movie star named Ronald Reagan had once warned them about welfare queens.

And welfare queens are real, Brandy. It's definitely not a bullshit racist term made up to stigmatize poor black moms. Yeah. For the record, Lydia is white, but she was for sure a welfare queen. I mean, no doubt about it. She'd come in there trying to scam the system, and the DNA test proved it. Any child should show like a 50% DNA pattern match with their biological mom. Yeah.

But Lydia's match with the two kids she claimed were hers. Zero percent. Zero percent? Mm-hmm. The chances of Lydia being the actual mother of those two kids was a billion to one. So is she lying? She has to be. But she was adamant.

Her kids were hers. She'd had them the old-fashioned way, the way all babies are made. Brandy, tell me if this sounds familiar. She and Jamie had put on a Yanni cassette tape and they busted out some nacho cheese-flavored bugles and put one on the tips

of each of their fingers and slowly ate them up each other's fingers and after all the bugles were consumed the couple had

embraced lovingly for several minutes. You think that's how babies are made? And nine months later bada bing bada boom stork drops off the babies.

What? This is the way that babies have been made since the dawn of time. We all know this. You ever had a nacho cheese bugle? I don't believe I've had the pleasure. I haven't either. So you're saying you're a virgin. So Lydia held strong.

She was like, these are my children. I gave birth to them. I didn't do in vitro or surrogacy. These are absolutely my children. The state was skeptical, much like Brandy is right now. She's squinting her eyes at me. Okay, if they're her children, if she gave birth to them, then there's an OB who she saw for her care. Somebody delivered the babies and can attest that they were birthed via her vagene or by

cesarean section. Does she offer that up? Could you keep your pants on? Is that possible? Yes. So, you know, she was so insistent. So they agreed to readminister the test. Maybe something, somehow.

Yeah, like a lab error or something. Okay, all right. So they tested again. And the DNA test revealed that Lydia was... 100% not that bitch. Stop it. She was not the mother. We're going for more of a Maury.

Oh, I'm sorry. Not a Lizzo situation. This is a test, you know. All right. So they tested again. And the DNA test revealed Lydia was not the mother. What? So then they tested one more time for the people in the back.

And the DNA test revealed Lydia was not the mother. These tests like took place in the prosecutor's office. I assume to cut down on any funny business like they didn't want any kind of what? Well, now I'm wondering if this is like some weird thing where she's like suffering from some form of mental illness where she has convinced herself that these children are hers. And they're not. Okay. Maybe. Never heard of that before, but.

Well, but you've covered some kind of weird cases of like baby kidnappers. Yeah. You're like, no, this is mine. This is for sure my kid. Yeah. That's kind of what I'm thinking. Okay. Which is I'm sure what they're thinking, right?

Like, obviously you had to have gotten the, gotten. You had to have gotten these somehow. And they're like, did you go to law school? The kids hated it. They didn't like having their blood drawn. They didn't like the swabs. And they didn't understand why their mom was so upset. But Lydia was upset and she was confused.

How could these tests say that she wasn't her children's mother? It seemed like no matter what she said, the people in power did not believe her. After the results came back, Lydia called her mom and told her what was going on. And she said, I'm in big trouble. The state says that my kids aren't mine. And her mom, Carol, just cracked up laughing. She said, well, they're obviously wrong. I was there when you gave birth to them.

Just have them redo the test. And Lydia was like, I can't. I've had them redo it like a million times now. Lydia couldn't eat. She was confused and terrified. And for good reason. The prosecutor's office was very suspicious of her and super concerned about these children who obviously were not hers. They interviewed her several times, but Lydia had nothing to confess. She showed them photos of her pregnancies and pictures of her holding the babies after she gave birth, but that didn't really prove anything. They interviewed Jamie, the children's father, and they were like, okay, okay.

Tell us what's really going on. And he was like, nothing's going on. I was there when the kids were born. But they didn't believe him, which meant that obviously he and

Lydia were probably running this scheme together. What? But obviously he and Lydia were probably running this scheme together. Okay. What? Well, the part about this being a scheme is just ridiculous to me because it's not like they're getting millions of dollars in welfare. Oh, it's a perfect scheme. So dumb.

Literally hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Yeah. All you have to do is carry three babies to term and give birth to them and care for them for the rest of your life. Oh my gosh. Okay. And all made perfect sense, Brandy, because scams ran in Lydia's family. Her dad had gone to prison

for his role in a business scam, so perhaps she just followed in her father's footsteps. Am I right? What kind of business scam? I didn't look into what... Damn it! Just calm down. There's plenty going on in this story, okay? Lydia

was at a loss. She had no idea how she could prove that her children were hers. So she did the only thing she could think of. Get the OB on the phone! Brandy, if you could keep your pants on, please. There's got to be records. There's medical records.

I have a whole file about, you know, London. So that exists. So she called the doctor who delivered her babies. Lydia knows what's up. It was Dr. Leonard Dreisbach. And she told him what was going on. How dry was it? Okay.

I don't even know that that's how you pronounce it. Dreisbach? Dreesbach. I don't know. Anyway, I really liked him in this interview. He was very sassy. He was just like, are you serious? He was like, trust me, I'm a doctor.

I think I know what it looks like when a woman gives birth. And I saw her give birth to the children. By the way, I know everyone loves the hip new trendy thing. But you know what? For years, as soon as a woman gives birth, we take a footprint of the baby right there in the delivery room. And we did that with both of Lydia's children. So we can prove that the footprints from the day they were born

match their footprints today. But, oh, you think DNA is better just because it's hot and new. Well, not everything is better just because it's new. Remember when headphones had a cord in them and you didn't have to charge them and they cost like 10 bucks?

And they were like, sir, please don't go on a tangent. We're listening for the story, not the tangent. But we do agree with you about the headphones. Cell phone companies didn't even give the consumer a choice in the matter. They just started making cell phones without headphone jacks. You know? That's correct.

Yeah. It is kind of annoying. And the doctor was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is not a made-up story at all. Whoa, whoa, whoa, please stick to the story at hand. I don't want to hear another tangent. So, you know, they got back on track after that. So, you know, Lydia talked to her doctor, and he was like, yeah, I'm so sorry this happened to you.

This is so weird. Yes, if you need me to, I will absolutely testify in court. Yeah. But that didn't matter. In our judicial system, DNA is key. Trump's everything else, yeah. And the DNA said Lydia wasn't the mom. In total, she was interrogated three times, and each time she just left in hysterics.

The third time, they threatened her with a lie detector test. And she said, fine, give it to me. I'd love to take one. These are my kids. But they didn't give her a lie detector test. Instead, they gave her a summons to appear in court. She was a mess. She was afraid she would be charged with welfare fraud and that she would lose her kids. I was going to say, are they threatening to take the kids away at this point?

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Meanwhile, with all these emotions, she was still pregnant. Every day she woke up, took her kids to daycare, and worried that it would be the last time she saw them. Anytime a stranger came to her door, she freaked out. She was convinced that people were going to take her children away.

The kids weren't at an age where she could explain anything to them. And even if they were, I mean, she didn't understand what was going on. So what could she say? All the kids knew was that mommy was very sad. But Lydia had to pull it together. She was about to appear in court. And if she wanted to keep her children, she needed to find an attorney. So she pulled out the phone book, because it was 2002, and she called every single lawyer in the phone book. But no one wanted to take her case. They were like, you're obviously

not the mom. DNA doesn't lie. I'm not taking the case. Bye. So Lydia went to court without an attorney. And at the hearing, the prosecutor requested new guardians for Lydia's children as the investigation into whether she was really their mother continued. And the judge agreed. But Lydia was super pregnant. This hearing took place on a Friday and she was due to be induced the following Monday. And so the judge said, OK, you say you're the mom. So I'm going to order a court officer to be there in the delivery room with you for the birth of your third child.

And that court officer will take blood from the baby and you right there. And hopefully we can get to the bottom of this. Okay. So they all left court that day with everything kind of in the air. But meanwhile, in Boston, Massachusetts, a woman named Karen Keegan found herself in an equally strange situation. Karen had spent like 30 years of her life as a special needs teacher. She had three adult sons. And now she needed a kidney transplant.

She and her husband and the two oldest boys all did some tests to see if any of them could donate their kidney to Karen. And, you know, so they did the test. And then Karen got a phone call a while later and they were like, Mrs. Keegan, your children don't have your DNA, so you're not their mom. What? Uh-huh. And Karen was like, well, I know they're my children, so there's obviously a mistake. But just like with Lydia, the DNA did not lie. Karen was not the mother of her children.

Karen was really emotional about this, despite the fact that she'd had her kids the old-fashioned way. Yanni cassette tape, bugles on the finger, long and bricks. Karen already had her own medical issues that she was dealing with. And after she told her sons that they didn't share her DNA, she wondered if they might think of her as not totally their mom. But the silver lining to her case is that her children were grown adults. So the state didn't make any effort to, like, intervene. I mean, there was nothing to do. This was just a really strange thing that Karen couldn't explain.

Luckily, her husband was able to donate his kidney to Karen, and the transplant went fine. But this thing with the DNA was so freaking weird. Karen's doctor was Dr. Lynn Ull. She's a pathologist and doctor of transfusion medicine at Beth Israel Hospital in Boston, which is quite close to Simmons University, which some folks say is the Harvard of Boston. A lot of people say that. So many people. Harvard is the Harvard of Cambridge. Simmons is the Harvard of of cambridge simmons is the harvard of boston yeah

obviously and dr lynn seemed to believe karen a lot of other medical professionals thought that karen was full of shit maybe she'd done in vitro and didn't want to admit it for some reason or maybe there were some other weirder explanation. Oh God, did you hear that? Yeah. Everyone, a car just screeched outside my window. It did, which is really weird because we're on the second floor. Do you think...

Never mind. Let's say it. Nothing. Say it and we'll cut it if it's too stupid. Do you think it's Ron in the flying car coming to take me to Hogwarts? Oh my God, that was so lame. You were right to not want to say that. I hope we don't get stuck in the whopping willow.

Oh, my God. Anyway. You nerd. So, you know, everyone thinksaren's full of shit but dr lynn had spent enough time with karen to get the sense that she wasn't just some weirdo with something to hide and if that was the case that karen was telling the truth then they had a medical mystery on their hands yeah and they needed to solve it. And so Dr. Lynn was like, hey, would you be up for more testing? We only tested your oldest two sons the first time.

Now could we test all three? And Karen was like, yeah, sure. So she and her son submitted to another DNA test, and the results came back exactly as they had before. Karen was not the mother of her oldest son. Not the mother... Hello, mother. Hello, father.

DNA says you're not my mother. But you're my father. I'm confused now. Very good. Anyway, so not the mom of the first two kids, but she was the mother of her youngest son. What? Uh-huh.

They shared a DNA match. So that was super weird. Dr. Lynn talked to some of her more senior colleagues about it, and they all said that something was fishy, and it was either Brandy Egan's vagina or Karen's story. They just didn't know who's. Nope. No. It's either Brandy's Lance Bass or it's something else.

But Dr. Lynn wouldn't let this thing go. And Karen, to her credit, was like, you know what? I'm fine being a guinea pig because I know I'm not lying. And DNA is being relied on so heavily in the justice system. People are being locked up over DNA. So we as a society really need to understand. Absolutely. So a bunch ofaren's family members submitted

their dna for testing and the results from that were a fucking trip it was a big burp from me oh that tasted like barbecue i'm so sorry barbecue and cheese yum yeah everyone i had a sandwich barbecue sandwich and it had cheese on it which Brandy has always maintained is a disgusting combination and today was a gross combination anyway what if this was all a brilliant cliffhanger for the exciting news I'm about to tell and not just me being gross and burping in the middle of a story so they get the results back. And the doctors were like, okay, what the fuck?

It looks like your two oldest sons are the descendants of your husband and your brother. What? Uh-huh. So it wasn't like a 50% match with the brother, but it was like a lot, a good portion. Yeah. This was obviously super weird. So they kept trying to figure this out, and at some point, someone suggested to Dr. Lin, what if Karen is a chimera? That's someone who possesses two sets of DNA.

But if that were the case, it'd be a long shot. The condition is called chimerism. I think I'm pronouncing it correctly. And the L is silent. Shut up. Okay. Okay. Last episode I directed you.

You said DeKalb, Illinois. Yeah. And I was like, it's DeKalb because it's DeKalb in Missouri. Yeah. And apparently it's DeKalb in Georgia. In Georgia. And I just assumed we were always dropping the L on that one. Apparently not.

In Illinois you pronounce the L. Yeah. I'm calling it Illinois from now on because apparently they just love to pronounce all their letters over there. Anyway, this is like the second episode in a row where I messed up the pronunciation of a city. Wow. I never mess these things up. No.

We are perfect pronunciationers. Also, I said that DeKalb was where that lady treasure charger stole all the money. It's not. It's fine. It was Dixon, Illinois. That's right. How could we forget my great Dixon cider joke? You know why I messed it up?

Why? Because my mom's family was originally from Dixon. Yeah. And so I was thinking that, but my dad's family is originally from DeKalb. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Like anyone gives a shit. I'm so sorry. It's totally fine. Anyway, I've never heard of this two DNA business. You know, as my friend, you're supposed to act like

that was a fascinating thing. Oh, so your mom's family was from Dixon. Oh, I'm fascinated by your family. Oh, yes. Absolutely. I just meant,

I don't care that people correct our pronunciation. All right. So anyway. We talk about a lot of places we've never been. You think we're going to get it right every time?

I don't think so. Wow. You know, I take your feedback very seriously. So anyway, there's this, this condition is called

chimerism, chimerism, chimerism, chimerism, I think is what it's called. Okay. And there are only 30 documented cases of it in the world. The world.

The world. The world. It's very complicated, but I'm a genius and I understand it thoroughly because the ABC News article says that it's essentially when two fertilized eggs fuse in the womb, that leaves you with a fetus that has two separate strands of DNA. It's basically like being your own twin, but the twin lives inside you microscopically as DNA. Yeah, that's fucking weird. Yeah yeah but testing for this is super complicated because you have no way of knowing where you're gonna find the secondary dna twin lives yeah it's not quite like that but yeah so karen was asked for all kinds of samples, hair samples, energy, whatever. It all went nowhere.

The doctors kept getting that one boring old strand of DNA. They wanted samples from... It was a dino DNA. What? What? Is that from Jurassic Park? Yeah, the second episode in a row where I've stuck it in where it doesn't belong. Good Lord! Is this a joke to you?

This is a very serious podcast. I'm sorry. I thought this was a comedy podcast. This morning, I had to do some work on the podcast before you came over, and Norm was talking to me, and I was like, leave me alone. I have to go put dick jokes in my script, and I was kind of serious.

The people demand the dick jokes. And it was shortly after that that I came up with the bugle thing. Yeah. Which is how you had London. Congratulations. You're welcome. You're welcome.

What? It was a huge personal favor to me that you had one. For years I've been like, it's annoying the shit out of me that you don't have a kid. And I bought you the Yanni cassette tape and the bugles. I gave you the night off. And you sent that poor

unsuspecting young boy with the bubble butt to my door. That's right. You're welcome. So, you know, they've gotten all these samples from Karen. None of it's leading anywhere. They wanted samples from her organ, but Karen didn't want to be a dead guinea pig. So she was like, hey, fun story. I had a thyroid nodule removed a while ago.

Maybe you could look at that. And so the doctors were like, holy shit, we've got to find a sample of that thyroid tissue. So they searched and searched and searched, and it's always the last place you look. Which happened to be a lab in Boston. It was funny, though. You left. Do you think they held up that piece of her thyroid and were like, it's always the last place to look? I'll be darned.

I looked everywhere for this chunk of thyroid. So they tested that tissue and lo and behold, in her thyroid, the secondary DNA was more dominant. Wow. Karen Keegan was her own twin. She was a two for one. She was a bogo. A medical phenomenon.

Her medical team was like, damn! So they did the thing that you always do when you're a doctor in New England and you've discovered something cool. Do they write about it in the New England Journal of Medicine? No. No.

First you high five over a cup of clam chowder. You put on your best North Face gear and then you sit down and write an article for the New England Journal of Medicine. Has to be in that order. Okay, my bad. It has to be in that order. Okay, my bad. So meanwhile, across the country in Washington, Lydia Fairchild was giving birth to her third child with an officer of the court president, a.k.a. every woman's dream scenario. I don't think that it was an officer of the court president. I think there was probably an officer of the court president.

Did I say president? The president was there as well. He didn't need to be there. Yeah, but he wanted to be. And, you know, are you really going to turn down the president? No, you're not. No. No.

So, man, you know why I probably stumbled over my words? Because I was so excited to get another zinger in. Oh, no, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bust your zinger. That's not a thing, people. The only thing better would be being in labor for like 55 hours. Am I right? That's correct.

Yeah. Tell us all about it, Brandi. I already did. So Lydia gave birth and she and the baby submitted their DNA samples. And they had to wait two weeks for the results. This was torture for Lydia. All she wanted to do was enjoy her new baby, but she couldn't because she was terrified

that at any minute someone would knock on her door and take the baby away. They were also kind of in this weird state where they're like wanting the test to come back negative because if it didn't, then that would seem like further proof that Lydia's first two children weren't hers. Right.

Then the results came back. And the newborn boy did not share any of her DNA. She was not the mother, somehow. Not the mama. What's that from? Dinosaurs. Yes, okay. You know what they have?

Dino DNA. Yes, okay. You know what they have? Dino DNA. Oh my God. You're welcome. We should not be allowed to record two episodes in one week. You're right. You're telling me you've worked dino DNA into two episodes in a row? Yep. What the hell is wrong with you?

Do you remember how creepy those things looked? Yeah. Was that a good imitation? That was a good imitation. Yeah. You looked just like the baby who said, not the mama. Yeah, that's exactly who I was was a good imitation. Yeah. You look just like the baby. Yeah. He said, not the mama. Yeah, that's exactly who I was picturing. Okay, anyway.

So, you know, DNA test comes back. 100% not that bitch. But this didn't necessarily get her off the hook. The DA's office wondered if maybe she was pregnant by surrogacy and that was part of her scheme, which, again, that is like the craziest, dumbest. Yeah. Anyway, the silver lining to this whole scenario was that it seemed to plant like a seed of doubt in the prosecutor's minds.

Maybe they were wrong. I just burped again. It's like talking to a volcano, isn't it? Before we record it, I suggest that Norm get a tiny pushpin and just poke a holy christ and see if that helped. Everyone, here's how weird I felt after eating that barbecue sandwich with cheese on it. We went out for dessert afterward and I didn't get anything. Yeah. My sacrifice.

Do I look a lot skinnier now that I'm just running on farts and burps? Like you're shrinking before me. Well, hmm. It's called the cheese and barbecue diet. That's wrong. I can eat only cheese and barbecue, but I can eat all the cheese and barbecue that I want.

I can eat only cheese and barbecue, but I can eat all the cheese and barbecue that I want. They say it's not healthy, but who cares? Look how good I look. Yes, look at me. And I can propel myself around my home by my own gas. What's the term for cow farts? Greenhouse gases. I'm contributing to that problem. You are.

But I don't have to drive a car anymore because I'm propelling myself around. So, you know. Anyway, back to the case. Yes. So, you know, maybe they were wrong. But more importantly, this twist was enough that Lydia was finally able to find an attorney who would represent her. Alan Tyndall took the case, but he was kind of suspicious of her. But then and different sources have this different ways, did he find the article

in the New England Journal of Medicine? Did the deputy prosecutor? Who knows? But the bottom line is that once Lydia's lawyer found out about Karen Keegan, he reached out to them and was like, hey, I have a woman who really needs your help. Will you help me determine whether or not she might also have chimerism, chimerism, chimerism, chimera. She's a chimera. She has a chiminea. Chiminea. And they said, sure. But, you know, the folks at Beth Israel weren't necessarily working on the same timetable as the court system in Washington. And again, two sources have this different ways. One says her lawyer was able to get the hearing pushed back. Another said that by the time Lydia was due back in court,

all that the medical experts could definitively say was, yeah, her DNA doesn't match her children's, but Lydia's mom's DNA matches the children's. So obviously the kids are related to Lydia somehow. Sort of like how Karen's two oldest sons appear to be related to her husband and her brother. Yeah. So her attorney took that information plus the medical records from her first two pregnancies and submitted all of that as proof that Lydia's children were truly her children.

And the judge was like, I'll be damned. These really are your kids. Yeah. And the judge dismissed the case against Lydia Fairchild. It had been over a year since the initial accusation. Wow.

And finally, Lydia had convinced the powers that be that her children were her own. She started bawling right there in court. She couldn't believe how close she'd come to losing her children. Further testing did reveal that she has chimerism, the chimney. She has the chimney. Chim, chimney, chim, chimney, chim, chim, true.

So her cervical DNA was not the same as her skin or blood DNA, but her cervical DNA was a perfect match for all three of her children. Wow. So in an article for Psychology Today, the author Sam Kean goes into a little more depth about this, and here's what he says. A chimera from one male and one female twin can become a hermaphrodite if twins are the same sex. I don't know that that's still the preferred term. If it's not, sorry. The child might have patches of skin or eyes of different colors, but otherwise will appear normal. In the absence of extensive DNA testing, he or she will probably never know. Wow. So that's kind of the interesting thing about this whole case is it's not like you can just do the chimera test and it's super easy.

They had to get into that cervix. Yeah. Right? Wow. So that's the disturbing story about DNA. Wow. So that's the disturbing story about DNA. Wow.

They talked about a lot of different ways this could go badly. Obviously, we rely on DNA a lot for, you know, our... Well, yeah. What if somebody commits a crime, but they leave the DNA they leave as the perpetrator doesn't match the DNA that comes back when you test them? Right. And so, oh. Also, paternity tests.

Yeah. A guy gets a paternity test that says you're not the father. Yeah. How can she convince them? I mean, Wow. So the interesting thing was

they talked about, you know, only 30 cases of this are documented. Yeah, but that's known. Exactly. So that's what thing was they talked about, you know, only 30 cases of this are documented. Yeah, but that's known. Exactly. So that's what Karen was saying was like, okay, if you're, if you have like two female cells, how are you really, and you don't have like the different skin colors or you don't have the different eye colors, how are you going to know? Yeah.

So there are probably a lot of people who have this. Yeah. Maybe not a lot, but. Got something in your throat there, Missy? Yeah. It's your twin. Trying to choke you out. Isn't that weird?

Oh, my gosh. That was very good. Thank you. It was suggested to you. Well, I enjoyed was very good. Thank you. It was suggested to you. Well, I enjoyed it very much. Oh, since I was rude and didn't... Oh, yeah, you want to give the titles? The documentary was called The Twin Inside Me,

and the ABC News article was called She's Her Own Twin. That was just porn you watched. The Twin Inside Me. Can you imagine the box art? It's me getting double penetrated with the look on my face like, oh! It's like the twins inside me. You've got your head like

Oh my! What have I gotten myself into this time? Oh! Yeah, they really should have run that title by now. Shut up! Did you ever watch Arrested Development?

Yeah. Yeah. The man inside me that was Tobias. Yes. Are you going to tell me a story? I am. Why do you seem so bummed out about it? I'm kind of nervous to tell this story, actually.

Why? It's a story I have a connection to. Oh, shit. What kind of connection do you have? I know the victim. Oh, no. I tell this story, actually. Why? It's a story I have a connection to. Oh, shit. What kind of connection do you have? I know the victim. Oh, no. I knew the victim, yes. Oh.

Okay. When I read it through this morning, I cried. Oh, boy. Here we go. But, yeah, so let's just jump in. Let's just do it. Okay. I'm so curious.

You might, there might be a couple things that you remember. Okay. I'm so curious. You might. There might be a couple things that you remember. Okay. So we get asked all the time about the cases that sparked our interest in true crime. And, of course, you know, I always say the Manson family, and that's absolutely true. That's the case that drew me in, sparked my interest, grew my obsession in true crime. But this case, the murder of Amanda Sharp, is the case that made the biggest impact on me because I knew her. I remember the day I met Amanda Sharp so clearly. I was working at a local pizza restaurant.

You know, the one where the manager yelled at me even though I was right and he was wrong and I went home crying and my dad basically threatened his life. I've told the story on the podcast. We all remember it. Let's move on. We're all on Tim's side. That's right.

Anyway, I was working there one day when this new girl came in and she was so fucking cool. She had this kind of short hair that spiked out all over the place. And she wore heavy black eyeliner, but not the kind that looks a mess. The kind that looks super cool and totally intentional. And she had several facial piercings. I was 14.

She was 17. And I swear to you, she was the coolest fucking person I'd ever met. But wait, you'd met me at that point? She didn't look like the typical girl the conservative owners of the pizza place would hire. As she had what one might describe as an alternative look, bordering almost on goth. And in fact, she'd only gotten the job as a waitress there because she was friends with one of the girls who already worked as a waitress there.

And each day before she clocked in for her shift, she was required to remove all of her piercings. And I remember watching her in obviously a totally like non-creepy way as she took out her piercings and put them in her little tin that she kept them in in her purse. Amanda didn't work at the pizza place for long. I think that she determined it wasn't a great fit for her. But in the short time that our paths crossed, I learned that her coolness was not just like a surface thing. She had all of these interesting facets to her personality. She was an artist. She was always sketching or

painting or sculpting or making pottery. She was taking classes at the Center for International Studies to learn Arabic because she aspired to become a translator. Oh, wow. And she loved her friends and family fiercely. Looking back now, I would guess that she was an empath, something that obviously I wouldn't have identified at the age of 14. But she seemed to be great at reading people. She could almost like sense when something was wrong with someone or something was going on with someone. And when she asked what was wrong, she genuinely seemed to want to know what it was and how she could help. I was fascinated by her.

I also remember the day that I learned that Amanda Sharp had been murdered so clearly. It was April 2002. I was in my bedroom getting ready for school and I was listening to Mix 93.3. Oh, hell yeah. The local top 40 station. And they did one of those little news break segments where they quickly go through some of the local headlines. One of the headlines was that a Shawnee Mission North student had been found murdered. Which was shocking in and of itself.

A student in our school district, in our county, someone around our age had been murdered. And then they went on to say that the victim had been identified as Amanda Sharp. And I could not believe it. I was stunned. Not only was this someone our age in our county, in our school district, but I knew her. Obviously, I only knew her on the fringe of her life. It wasn't like I was some big figure in her life and she wasn't a big figure in mine,

but she made an impact on me. And I just couldn't believe it. And as is my nature, I needed to know everything. I remember that day I went to school and my first hour class happened to be in a classroom that had like a bank of computers along the side of the classroom. And so I went to my first hour early and I got on one of those computers and I looked up what I could about the case. This was the first case that I remember following through the legal system. I followed all the news articles. I read everything I could about it. Had I even known it was a possibility at the

time, I probably would have tried to go to the trial. Yeah. But I mean, I was 14. I had no idea that that was like a thing people did. Over the years, I followed what updates there were on the case. And every now and then Amanda's story would pop up in my mind, and I'd go back on the internet and read everything I'd already read before. I have read the court record on this case over and over and over again. I've read every article printed in the Kansas City Star and the Lawrence Journal World a hundred times. and the Lawrence Journal World a hundred times. And for some reason, it never occurred to me to cover this case on the podcast until yesterday. Okay.

You know I'm not a big woo-woo person. You're not. But I love dates. You do? Yes. I love when dates line up. I love when there are weird coincidences with them. I think they are like these little signs from the universe. So this week, as we already mentioned, we've recorded two episodes.

Like this is our second episode of the week because we recorded the bonus episode. I was having the worst time yesterday coming up with a case to cover. I read a ton of articles. Didn't like anything. Couldn't find what I wanted to cover. And then Amanda's case popped in my head. And I was like, yeah, I'll cover that. Yeah. So I was rereading the articles that I've already read a thousand times. And I came across Amanda's obituary. And yesterday was her fucking birthday. Oh, wow.

That's so weird. Yes. I am more woo-woo than you. I know you are. Wow. Yes. So here it is, the murder of Amanda Sharp. It was Monday, April 8th, 2002, and Amanda was

hanging out with her usual group of friends in the parking lot of Shawnee Mission North High School. It was just about time for the first bell to ring when Amanda and her ex-boyfriend Kevin Gunby decided they were going to skip class and go back to Kevin's house. This was something they did

fairly regularly. They'd skip school, they'd go to his house. They'd smoke pot. Sometimes they'd have sex. Like, it was just, you know, pretty regular thing. Kevin and Amanda had a turbulent history. They had dated on and off for, like, several years since they were very young. In 2000, they had actually run off to California together with another friend, and they were gone for two weeks before the authorities found them

and brought them back to Kansas. Wow. Following that incident, neither Amanda nor Kevin's parents were real fond of the couple spending time together, and so they forbade it, and of course- That always works. Yeah. But as teenagers do, they still found ways to see each other.

I mean, they went to school together. Yeah. One time, though, Kevin showed up at Amanda's house uninvited. And this was after the whole California thing. And Amanda's parents reacted really horribly. They were very upset about it. They called the police. And ultimately, this resulted in Kevin being arrested, placed on probation, and a protective order was issued that barred Kevin from coming anywhere near Amanda.

I think there has to be more to that. There had to be some kind of altercation, but I couldn't find any record of what that might have been. By April of 2002, though, this protection order had expired. And I believe even when it was in place, the two still saw each other kind of on and off. So on this particular day, Amanda and Kevin said goodbye to their friends, Jackie Irwin and Brad James. And as those two headed into class and Amanda and Kevin went to Kevin's house in Fairway, which is like this kind of like pretty uppity little pocket of houses in Johnson County. It's very fancy. How do you feel about it, Brandon?

The houses are too small for the amount of money they want for them. Agreed. Ding, ding, ding. Ding, ding, ding. After first hour, though, Jackie and Brad decided they were going to skip the rest of the day and join Kevin and Amanda. So they left school around nine and Jackie called Kevin to let him know that they were on their way. Only when she called Kevin, he seemed really aggravated and angry and he told Jackie not to come over. They actually got into a fight on the phone and Jackie ended up hanging up on Kevin. Here's the thing, though. Brad James was

actually living with the Gunby family at this time. So Kevin and Brad were seniors, I believe. So Amanda was for sure a junior. I believe Jackie was a junior as well. But Kevin and Brad were seniors and Brad's parents had moved out of district, but Brad wanted to finish up the school year at his same high school. And it's a closed district. So if you live out of the district, you can't transfer in. It's

really strict. And so he had moved in with Kevin's family to finish out the school year. And so it wasn't just like Kevin could be like, you can't come over. That's where Brad lived. And so Jackie dropped Brad off at the Gunby house and then she took off because she was pissed. She was pissed that Kevin was rude to her, like she'd skip school and she wasn't going

to get to do what she wanted to do, whatever. So she takes off. As Brad was walking up to the house kevin met him at the front door he was sweaty he looked upset or irritated there was like a scrape or a cut above his eye and then on his shoulder was what looked like a bite mark brad walked in the house with Kevin and Kevin turned and looked at him and said, guess what I did? Oh, my God. And then he said, you know how I've talked about killing Amanda. Well, I did it. Brad didn't really know what to say to that. He just kind of followed Kevin into what I believe was like a basement bedroom. And there laying face down on the bed was Amanda's body.

There was blood coming from her nose. She was pale. Her body was limp. Brad James ran over to her and checked her for a pulse but didn't find one. And he looked at Kevin and was like, what is going on here? What happened? And Kevin told him that he and Amanda had had sex and that it had gotten kind of rough. and that after they were done, Amanda got really mad about it and was like, don't ever do that again. And Kevin started beating her up.

He said he was like throwing her around the room. He hit her head on the concrete wall of the basement. Oh, gosh. hit her head on the concrete wall of the basement. Oh, gosh. And at that point, Amanda said that she was going to call her boyfriend to come over and kill Kevin. And so Kevin told Brad that he then held Amanda down and strangled her. He said he applied pressure to her throat for 10 minutes until she stopped moving. Oh, my gosh.

And then he looked at Kevin and he said, she put up a pretty good fight. Oh. Yeah. He then told Brad that he knew he was fucked. He didn't know what he was going to do. That was the exact word. I'm so fucked. He didn't know what he was going to do. That was the exact word. I'm so fucked. I don't know what I'm going to do.

He told Brad that he was going to take Amanda's body to Nall Park and dump it in the creek there so that he could, quote, get the DNA off of her fingernails. Brad was stunned yeah he didn't really know what to do at this point he asked Kevin if he could borrow his car to go get cigarettes he just needed to get out of the house for a minute and like figure out what the fuck was going on what the fuck to do and so he left

he went to go get cigarettes but he came back to the house wait what he really that wasn't a ruse he really went to go get cigarettes so he goes he gets cigarettes and he comes back and when he comes back kevin is like standing in the garage and he's motioning for him to back the car in oh god and so he did brad And Brad. And so Brad backs the car into the garage and then he and Kevin go into the house and Kevin has wrapped Amanda's body in blankets. And he's like, I'm going to put her in the trunk so I can move her. And he goes to pick her up and he can't do it.

And so he's like, you got to help me, Brad. You got to help me. And Brad doesn't really know what to do at this point. And so he helped him put Amanda in the trunk of the car. And then he helped Kevin clean up blood that was on the concrete wall of the basement. And then he helped Kevin paint that wall where some of the blood wouldn't come off. What? And as they were doing this, Kevin looked at him and threatened him.

And he said something to the effect of, you know what I'm capable of. You better watch your back. Oh, God. Then the two ate lunch together. What? then the two ate lunch together what and then brad asked kevin to give him a ride to a friend's house and and he was like yeah sure no problem so they went to go get into kevin's car the one where they had just put Amanda's body in the trunk. But before they did, Kevin grabbed Amanda's purse because he was going to, I guess, dump it with her. And he went through it before he left.

And he pulled up, like he pulled out her like driver's license or her state ID or whatever. And he held it up and he kind of like stroked it in his hand. And then he looked at Brad and he said, like stroked it in his hand and then he looked at brad and he said i'm gonna keep this to remember her by oh so then they got in the car and kevin drove brad to whoever's friend's house he dropped him off and as brad got out of the car kevin said think happy thoughts and don't tell anyone about what you saw. Think happy thoughts. Think happy thoughts.

Oh, this guy. Uh-huh. Thankfully, Brad did exactly the opposite of that. Thankfully, Brad did exactly the opposite of that. He immediately told the friend whose house he was at what had happened, what he'd seen, what Kevin Gunby had done. And then they walked to Shawnee Mission West where Brad Jane's girlfriend went and they met up with her. By the time they met up with Brad's girlfriend, Brad was crying. He was so upset. He just, like, had found himself in a situation that he never wanted to be in,

and he had just helped somebody load a body into a car. Yeah. So he's crying. He meets his girlfriend, and he's like, she's like, what's going on? What's the matter? And he tells her everything, And she calls her mom. Yeah. And they talk to her mom.

And her mom's like, you have to tell the police right now. You have to go to the police. Yeah. And so they're at a high school. There's a student resource officer there. And so they decide that's who they're going to go to. Boy, talk about being unprepared for that. They probably are used to, like, busting kids for pot.

Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God. And so they go and they find the student resource officer. His name is Robert Miller. And they go up to him. By this time, both Brad is inconsolable. He's sobbing. His girlfriend is crying by this point.

Officer Miller can't understand what they are saying to him. Yeah. He's like, what is going on? I don't understand. They keep trying to tell him, but they're both crying. But the girlfriend still has her mom on the phone. And so she's like, give him the phone. Let me talk to him.

Yeah. And so she relays to the officer that Brad has been the witness to a homicide. And so this SRO officer is like, oh, God, holy shit. And so he takes him in their office and they sit down and he gets them to make a statement. And so then obviously he calls other officers and a detective is immediately put on the case. And he meets, I believe, Brad like at the police department so they can take like an official statement from him and he walks them through everything.

And he would be interviewed a couple of times over the next couple of days. And he gave the story the exact same way every time. And he admitted, you know, I helped him load her in the car. I helped him paint the basement. Like, I didn't know what else to do. So he's very forthcoming in the part that he played and, you know, everything. At this time, they actually assigned a couple of detectives to like conduct surveillance on Kevin Gunby because now they know he has a body in his car and that he's trying to dump it. Oh, gosh.

And so they track him down. I think he had. So he was in like an alternative program at Horizons. Horizons was like the alternative school in our school district. So he had like an evening class there, an English class that he was taking. And so they like watch him go to that class. And when he comes back, they stop him in front of his house. It's like 6.30 p.m. that same day. And they stop him. And they stop him. And a police officer approaches him and identifies himself. And they're like, do you know why we're here? And he said, yeah, didn't take you guys long.

Oh. Yeah. And then he said, he like looked up at his house and he said, please don't let my mother know why you are here. And so they cuffed him and they put him in the squad car to arrest him. And as he's being arrested, he says, you almost missed me. Oh, God. Mm hmm. So obviously they brought somebody in to tow the car, and when they secured the car, Amanda's body was discovered in the trunk. She had been wrapped in layers of blankets and bedding, which had all been duct-taped around her ankles and torso.

Once they removed the bedding, they found that her pants had been pulled down. They were just below the knee and that she was wearing a leather collar. So they talk about this in like the court record as if it is a sign that they were doing some kind of sex play. But that was kind of the style. I actually think it was kind of the style. That's exactly right. I actually think it was like an accessory that she was wearing because it's specifically noted that it was on the tightest setting

and it was still loose on her neck. Yeah. I think it was a piece of jewelry that she was like a spiked collar. I think it was a piece of jewelry that she was wearing. Those were super popular at the time. Yeah. But they make a big point about it in the court record. Like, this is something that people who were engaging in rough sex play often wore.

True. True. But also. But also. Anyone who was kind of alternative. Yes. Also, everyone wore chokers back then. Yes.

And yeah, if you were edgier, you would do the spiked ones. Yes. Yeah. This is like a thing that always sticks out to me because it's like Yes. And yeah, if you were edgier, you would do the spiked ones. Yes. Yeah. This is like a thing that always sticks out to me because it's like, oh yeah, totally. She was involved in a weird sex game. I don't think so. I think it was a piece of jewelry that she was wearing. Yeah. She went to Hot Topic and bought that and that's the end of that story. That's exactly what I think. They performed an autopsy on Amanda the next day, and they found all of the typical signs of manual strangulation. She had petechial hemorrhages. There were abrasions.

So there were a couple of different abrasions on her neck. There was one that was caused by the collar. But the forensic neuropathologist who conducted the autopsy said that he actually believed that that mark from the collar was actually left when the collar was pushed up out of the way so that Kevin could put his hands around her throat and manually strangle her. Yeah. There were also signs of blunt force trauma. She had some injuries to her skull and to the muscles on her jaw that were consistent with her head being slammed into the concrete wall. that someone would have to apply consistent, intense pressure for at least 8 to 12 minutes to end someone's life by manual strangulation. Kevin Gumby was, of course, arrested and charged with first-degree premeditated murder, and his trial was set for December 16th, 2002. So on December 13th, so like three days before the trial was set to happen, a pretrial hearing was held in which the

defense submitted a motion to try and suppress some statements that Kevin Gunby made to the arresting officer that day. So the thing about like, do you know why we're here? And he's like, yeah, it didn't take you long. And yeah, I was, you almost missed me. So the defense wanted to make sure these statements couldn't be used against Kevin at trial. Obviously, he hadn't been Mirandized by that point and whatever. But the prosecution actually agreed that these things were inadmissible. And so like nothing really happened with that hearing. The trial went on as planned. They didn't really need that stuff anyway. They sure didn't. At the trial, the prosecution argued that Kevin had intentionally and with forethought murdered Amanda, while the defense claimed that Kevin Gunby had accidentally killed Amanda during rough consensual sex. Oh, gosh.

You could see that coming a mile away, couldn't you? And then he just panicked when he realized what had happened. So that's why they made a big deal about that stupid necklace. Yeah. Yep. Okay.

The prosecution however told the jury that the method of Amanda's death alone proved premeditation. Kevin could have stopped at any time and Amanda would have lived, but he applied immense pressure until he was sure she was dead. Yeah. She had a lot of defensive wounds on her body. There was all kinds of bruising and scrapes and stuff from where she tried to fight him off. They called that forensic neuropathologist who

performed her autopsy and he testified to everything that he'd found about, you know, the signs of manual strangulation. And he talked about how the strangulation wasn't caused by the collar that she had worn. Yes, there was a mark from it. But again, he testified to how that mark was caused when that collar was pushed up and out of the way. Yeah. Not caused by some use during sex. Yeah. Brad Janes testified about what he'd seen that day as well as what role he had played and the steps that he had taken to report it.

He also testified about Amanda's boyfriend, Nick Adriano. He said that Kevin was super jealous about Amanda's relationship with Nick. So this seems that this was kind of like a known thing that Amanda and Kevin would still sometimes have casual sex, even when she was in a relationship. But Kevin really wanted to be in a relationship with Amanda. He wanted to be the only one she was having sex with. And so he was super jealous that Amanda was in this relationship. And he would get angry with her and he'd yell at her and he'd call her a slut and a whore. So he'd get angry with her and he'd yell at her and he'd call her a slut and a whore.

And like this was something that Brad had witnessed. And he testified to this on the stand that he had heard Kevin say that. And he'd heard Kevin say on multiple occasions that he wished he could kill her. OK. Yeah. I mean, how much more do we need? Right. In addition to all of that, Brad testified that Kevin had admitted to him that about two weeks before Amanda had been killed, that like they'd gotten into some kind of argument and that he'd gotten kind of rough with her and she was really upset about it. Amanda's boyfriend, Nick Adriano, testified. And he testified that Amanda had told him that Kevin was constantly urging her to break up with him.

He also testified that he and Amanda were in a sexual relationship. And that, like, a couple of times he jokingly talked about tying her up. And she was very against it. She didn't want to she didn't want to do any of that. She wasn't into BDSM. Correct. So this was obviously testimony that was given to negate the defense's claim that this was a consensual rough sex situation. Nick also testified he told this story that Amanda had told him and the defense objected to this, but the judge allowed it in.

He testified about this story that Amanda had told him that about a month before she died, there had been this incident between her and Kevin that had been very violent. She said that she and Kevin had been hanging out and they'd been smoking pot and that she was getting ready to leave. And then when she got up, Kevin like smirked at her and pushed her onto the bed. And then he jumped on her and handcuffed her wrist to the bedpost. She was like she struggled with him for several minutes. Yeah. And then he began choking her and he did so for a minute or two oh finally she like fought enough that he let her go and

she was like i super upset i can't believe you did that did that to me and he's like please don't tell anyone don't tell anyone I did that. Please. And he was really concerned that she was going to tell someone what he'd done. Mm-hmm. And this boyfriend, Nick Adriano, testified that when Amanda told him this story, she was really upset and that she had visible injuries on her wrist and her throat from this taking place. Wow. So Amanda's best friend, Zoycia Mallon, testified. And again, the defense objected to this. Some of this stuff could be considered hearsay because these are stories that were told by

Amanda to people. But the judge, again, allowed it in. And she testified about an incident that had happened a couple weeks before Amanda was murdered. And she said that Amanda had come to her and said that she was scared of Kevin. Kevin had talked her into doing something during sex that she wasn't super comfortable with. He had tied her up. And then once she was tied up, he wouldn't listen to her. He did whatever he wanted to do.

Like he wouldn't stop when she wanted her to stop. And it was it was really scary. And she was really traumatized by it. It's unclear if Zoysia and Nick are talking about the same incident or if they are separate incidents. Either way, whether they're the same or separate, this shows clearly that there were times that Kevin crossed a line and made her very uncomfortable. And I read something where someone questioned why she would continue to hang out with him after this.

But from what I've read, it seemed like Amanda really trusted Kevin and he really like always did the thing where he apologized and it'll never happen again type of thing. It's the cycle of abuse. It's absolutely the cycle of abuse. It's an abusive relationship. 100%. Zosia also testified that Amanda was very open with her about her sexual relationships. Obviously, they were best friends.

They told each other everything. with her about her sexual relationships. Obviously, they were best friends. They told each other everything. And she had told Zosia that her boyfriend, Nick, wanted to, like, choke her while they were having sex. And she had told him, no, that she wasn't interested in it, that that felt, like, traumatic to her and she didn't want to do it. So, again, this is brought forward as testimony to disprove the defense's theory that this was a consensual sexual encounter.

During closing arguments, the prosecution told the jury that only a murderer would try to cover things up the way that Kevin had. If this was really a consensual thing, this was really an accident, that's not how you react. The prosecutor also said during his closing argument, I'm telling you based on the definition given to you by the court, premeditation can occur after the chain of events starts. So this is really important to the prosecution to establish that premeditation doesn't have to be something like where he planned to lure her to the house that day with the attempt to kill her. That premeditation can be a thought in a moment. And this is important because they really wanted to convict Kevin of first degree premeditated murder.

They didn't want the jury to find him guilty of a lesser charge by saying like he, you know, the defense's claim that this was an accident. He had intended to do it. Like he, you know, the defense's claim that this was an accident. He had intended to do it. And so he went on to say premeditation can mean that at any point when the chain of events starts, if the defendant thinks beforehand and there's some thought put into the, after he started strangling her, that he then made the conscious decision, I will continue this until I kill you. When that goes through his mind, that's when he premeditates. What do you think about that? Is that really the way that works? But I don't know. That's I mean, that's word for word what the prosecutor told the jury. But the friend Brad said he had talked about. Absolutely. And it sounds. That's I mean, that's word for word what the prosecutor told the jury. But the friend Brad said he had talked about.

Absolutely. And it sounds like there. I mean, this sounds like a pattern to me. Absolutely. I'm fine with it. Yes. And I'm the one who matters. The prosecutor continued.

This case is based on sound science and the science of murder is this. You cannot intentionally strangle somebody to death without there being premeditation. It is the only type of murder that exists where you simply cannot perform it

unless you are intending to kill your victim. That's an interesting point. Honestly. Yeah. When you shoot somebody, the bullet is gone. When you set a house on fire,

the fire rumbles. When you beat somebody with a baseball is gone. When you set a house on fire, the fire rumbles. When you beat somebody with a baseball bat, the damage has been done. But if you strangle somebody, if you don't want that person to die, you can let go and they will live. It is impossible to intentionally strangle someone to death without knowing, thinking, and wanting that person to die. And ladies and gentlemen, that is all that is required for premeditation. The prosecutor then told the jury to review the potential things that they could convict him of from top to bottom. So the jury should first decide whether Kevin Gumby was guilty of premeditated first degree murder before it ever moved on to any considerations of a lesser crime.

He said, if you all agree that the defendant is guilty of premeditated first degree murder, then you are not to consider any of the lesser included crimes. Once you find first degree premeditated murder, you are not to consider any other instructions. They are given to you only if you think that we failed to meet our burden. I bring this up only because that is something that the defense will appeal on. Okay. Will file an appeal based on later. During the defense's closing argument, they told the jury that there was another explanation for why Kevin had done what he'd done. Amanda had died

accidentally during consensual rough sex, and he was scared. That's all. The defense attorney said, and this is a quote, these are stupid kids and they do stupid things. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. Yeah. These are stupid kids and they do stupid things. You lumping the victim in there?

Wow. Yeah. The jury deliberated for about eight hours. During their deliberations, they asked to hear a couple of sections of testimony read again. They asked to hear Nick Adriano's testimony and Zoysia Mallon's testimony again. Here, Nick Adriano's testimony and Zosia Mallon's testimony again. And they also asked the judge to clarify the prosecutor's statements about premeditation. They said, is it true that premeditation can occur during the act of strangulation?

They wanted, they were unclear. Yeah, they wanted to know, they wanted clarity were on. Yeah. Yeah. They wanted to know they wanted clarity on that. And the judge responded by saying it is for you to determine this issue based on the facts as you find them and the law as given in the court's instructions. Yeah, I it's not as clear cut as that prosecutor made it seem. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Ultimately, the jury found Kevin Gunby guilty of first degree murder. At his sentencing in February of 2003, some family members delivered victim impact statements. Amanda Sharp's uncle called Kevin Gunby a coward who refuses to say what really happened that day. Yeah. And Amanda's mother, Julie Sharp, cried, obviously, and she talked about the pain and despair that she has felt since losing Amanda. She said that her grief

has been compounded by the constant worry she has that something would happen and Kevin would be free. She said, I already fear the day he will be released from prison. Yeah. But at his sentencing, Kevin Gumby continued to insist that Amanda's death was an accident. He said, I truly am sorry. And he looked at Amanda's family and he said, I never would have done anything to purposely hurt her. Okay, but you did multiple times. Yeah, exactly. Multiple times. And asked her not to tell anybody. So you knew it was very, very wrong. He was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole for 25 years.

He appealed his sentence based on a couple of things. First, the prosecutor's definition of premeditation. Yeah, I don't think it's great. I don't think it's great how the prosecutor laid it out i don't think that matches the legal definition what is the legal definition of premeditated murder i don't i don't know premeditation requires that the defendant planned the murder before it was committed or was lying in wait for the victim. Hmm. I do get the argument of the fact that he started to strangle her and continued to strangle her until she was dead. He applied immense pressure for 10 minutes.

Yeah. And at any point could have stopped. Yeah. To me, that that meets. To me. Yeah. I Yeah, to me that meets. To me, yeah, I mean, I guess that shows intent to kill, not necessarily premeditation. Yeah, I don't know. So he appealed based on that.

And he actually appealed also based on the two stories that the friends were allowed to tell, saying that those shouldn't have been allowed in because it should be considered hearsay evidence. But his appeals, as far as I can find, have been denied. I found an article. I believe he's in prison in Hutchinson, Kansas. I found an article that was written when he'd been in prison for about 10 years, so 2012, that he's become a garden master. They have a garden there on the prison property.

And in order to work on it, they have to go through a literal, like, get a master's in gardening program through the prison. And then the garden grows, like the gardeners grow fruits and vegetables that are donated to a local food shelter. Okay. And he says that working in the garden has given him purpose. Okay. He will be eligible for parole in 2027. Wow, that's soon. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought you said he got life without the possibility of parole. Life with the possibility of parole after 25 years. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I remember when this happened. I remember talking to my dad and saying something like, oh, I can't wait to read, like, the true – I was very into true crime books, obviously. Oh, yeah. I can't wait to read the true crime book about this. And my dad was like, yeah, there's not going to be one. This is just like a teenage girl who was murdered in suburbia. Like, this was like, yeah, there's not going to be one. This is just like a teenage girl who was murdered in suburbia.

Like, this isn't like a big story. He wasn't saying that to be a dick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, yeah. But just not every victim gets it. Exactly. And that just like totally struck me

as like, you know, this was something that was a huge impact to me. Yeah. Yeah. That's the story of the murder of Amanda Sharp. Okay. I don't remember any of that.

I feel like I remember, like, coming to school and being like, oh, my gosh, this girl that I used to work with was murdered. Okay. But, obviously, I mean, that would stick in my head. But, you know. I would think that would stick in my head but you know I would think that would stick in my head I mean it's been a long time ago

so it has been like 20 years ago yeah oh my god yeah wow yeah

they did start a memorial fund for her and they were going to use it to fund programs at the International Center I couldn't find any follow up on that but I hope that's still in place or some people benefited from that I read one

gosh, I read one quote from this kid who went to North so they did this article about how the kids at the school were coping and stuff. Right. And this one kid was like, hey, listen, we're all fine here. You know what? We already have a reputation of being like the bad school in the district.

We don't need this too. Oh. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. He said, we're plenty safe here. Yeah, it's not great. It's not great.

Okay, but you know what? So that was a high school student? Yeah. And that ran in the Kansas City Star? Yeah. If I had been the reporter, I don't know that I would have run that. I would have included that, yeah. And, you know, there's no rules against that, obviously.

But I think in a situation like that where this is a kid, they might not really be fully thinking through what they're saying. And I'm going to put it in print forever. There were a lot of times as a reporter when I was like, nope, just gonna not gonna include that. You're not a public figure. This is the first time you're being interviewed. I'm gonna let that slide.

That's awful. Yeah. Were you nervous to tell that one? I was really nervous to tell that one. Yeah. Were you nervous to tell that one? I was really nervous to tell that one. Yeah. Yeah. This morning when I read through it to, like, prepare, when I was describing, like, what I knew of her, I cried. Yeah.

I wasn't sure I could get through it without crying. I think I was pretty shaky at the beginning of this, so I'm sorry. Okay. And my fear about this and maybe we should cut this so is that this would come off as like self-indulgent of me telling you're sounding exactly like when I um did the Alyssa Schipper of like you don't want to overstate your relationship not at all not at all and I don't think you are okay you know you're just saying she worked at the pizza shop with me yeah I thought she was really cool looking. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And because of that, because she made this like impact on me, I her case has stayed in my mind all these years. Yeah. Yeah. And now I had like a weird, unique opportunity to get to share it. So I did it. You're a monster. Stop it.

We're all thinking it. No, that was really hard I'm sorry what a douche okay but tell me the fact that I thought of that case

and it happened to be her birthday that's pretty weird right yeah that's really weird yeah I told David that okay when I'm researching

case David doesn't want to know anything about it because he likes to listen to the podcast. He's a big fan of the podcast. Oh, yeah. And so when I'm like, oh, my gosh, guess what I just read? He's like, don't tell me, don't tell me, don't tell me. Yeah, yeah. So I was like, I have to tell you this. I have to tell you this.

Yeah. And he was like, okay, that is weird. Yeah. You had no choice but to do this case. That's right. That's right. That is weird. Yeah.

You had no choice but to do this. That's right. That's right. That's right. Let's do a seamless transition into an ad. Oh, should we take some questions? From our Discord? From our Discord. I believe we should.

Steven Beards Bear asks, toe socks or not? No, absolutely not. Oh, my God. First of all, I don't like regular socks, so I'm certainly not going to have a sock on every toe. I love socks. I know you do. I always wear socks. Hate toe socks.

I think they look weird and I think they feel weird. Used to wear toe socks in high school. That was like a thing. It was. With like flippy floppies. Yeah, to let people know. That you had toe socks on. I had jingle bell toe socks.

What the hell does that mean? They had jingle bell. They were Christmas themed toe socks. I had jingle bells on them. I've come a long way in my socks. You know how much I hate novelty socks now. It's like you're a totally different person now. It is.

AJ Beers wants to know, I recently listened to the older episode about the guy who left his child in his car. Brandy, have your opinions changed on how easy or hard it is to forget a child is in the car since you've had London? Oh, that's a good question. No, I still think it would be very hard to forget that London was in the car. Really? I do. I still don't have children. I still think it could be easy.

Gosh, I just can't imagine being distracted enough. And I have a routine. Like, I take her. Maybe if your routine wasn't the same every day, maybe. But I take her to my mom's every day on my way to work. Every day. I'm the one that takes her every day. So, yeah, I think if I didn't do that, that, yeah, I don't see how I could just forget that she was there.

I can't imagine what could distract me that much. Have you ever done the thing where you just like you drive yes and you don't know like suddenly you're much farther along in your drive and you don't remember making a turn or yes i have done that i absolutely have i think that's kind of what it is and maybe it is and the baby falls asleep and yeah when london was a when london was a small baby she hated being in her car seat so she cried a lot now she loves being in her car seat, so she cried a lot. Now she loves being in her car seat, doesn't bother at all. So she's pretty quiet. She talks sometimes or, you know, babbles. She's not, like, saying a lot of words these days.

But, yes, I just can't imagine. Like, I have a whole routine. I go out to the car. Like, I carry her, her stuff. I put my stuff in the front seat, load her, her stuff. I put her, my stuff in the front seat, load her into her car seat, put her diaper bag right next to her. And then we get in the car. I talk to her while we're in the car, drive to my mom's, get out, take her in. It's a whole routine that I do every day. Yeah. So I, yeah, to me, I just, my, my opinion has not changed.

I think it would be very difficult for me to leave her in the car. It would be, it would have to be something where we strayed from our routine for that to happen. Yeah. Which, I mean, happens. You do stuff outside your routine, but it would have to be under those circumstances. I mean, that sounds terrible. I don't, I obviously don't even want to think about that. Yeah, absolutely.

Kaylee on the Discord says, I need to hear about everyone's Halloween costumes, especially family babies. It's for research. Okay, so last year we did a theme, which last year was COVID Halloween, so we really just saw our parents. But David, Jack, and I all dressed as chefs, and then London was a lobster in a giant pot. Yeah. This year, I don't think we're going to do a theme, but I did find this baby pink flamingo costume. It's so cute. I really want her to be a pink flamingo.

Oh, you should. Yeah. Do it while you can still control what she is. That's right. Yeah. It'll be very shortly here. She will have strong opinions about what she wants to be for Halloween. Hey, good news.

I know you loved the COVID Halloween last year. People aren't wearing masks. They're not getting vaccinated. Yeah. COVID Halloween. Hey, good news. I know you loved the COVID Halloween last year. People aren't wearing masks. They're not getting vaccinated. Yeah. COVID Halloween again this year. Hey, that's cool, huh? COVID Halloween take two, electric boogaloo. This is never ending.

Okay, you and Norm have dressed up together before. One year, right, he was Gingy, and you were like a baker. Oh, yeah, he was the gingerbread man. When you said Gingy. Gingy. His name is Gingy and you were like a baker. Oh, yeah. He was the gingerbread man. When you said Gingy. His name is Gingy. It is? Yes. Okay.

I was like, who are you talking about? The gingerbread man from Shrek is named Gingy. I am so sorry. And then you had like an apron and a rolling pin, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know. All right. So you guys, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know.

All right. So you guys get pretty crazy too. Oh, yeah. We get wild. Oh, ass-eating coffee lover. What's the name? Do you go by Brandy and Kristen or Kristen and Brandy? Kristen and Brandy. You think? and Brandy? Kristen and Brandy.

You think? Yeah. Why? I don't know. That's what sounds normal to me. What do you think? Do you think? I think it's Kristen and Brandy.

I've never really thought about it. Okay. What about with your significant other? Are you Kristen and Norm or Norm and Kristen? See, I only think of it with my sister. It's Kristen and Kyla. But I've always thought that's an age thing. Dibs, I was here first.

Yeah, obviously. Like, okay, if Kyla says to Jay, hey, Kristen and Norm are coming over. Or is it Norm and Kristen are coming over? I think it's Kristen and Norm. But I kind of feel like if his sister was to say, you know, we were coming over, it would be Norma and Kristen. Yeah. You know?

Mm-hmm. Hmm. Okay. So it depends on who's saying it. Exactly. All right. All right. You think there's a ring to Kristen and Brandy?

Yeah. I think that sounds right. Okay. It's settled. Costco model wants to know, is it too early to buy Halloween candy? The stores have Halloween displays out. Not if you want to eat it, but it won't be around at Halloween if you buy it now. Some people are freaks, though.

There's no way I could buy Halloween candy now and it'd be around at Halloween. Me neither. Not a chance in hell. way I could buy Halloween candy now and be around at Halloween. Me neither. Not a chance in hell. Sometimes, like, I have screwed myself over because I'm like, nope, I've got to buy it like the day before and then it's gone. And then there's just this bit of honeys left. God, and we can't do that to the kids. That's right. One year I had to get peppermint patties. York peppermint patties. I like them. I love York peppermint patties. But the kids seem disappointed.

And here's the bad thing about the York peppermint patties. I like them. I love York peppermint patties. But the kids seem disappointed. And here's the bad thing about the York peppermint patties. You mix that in with other candy in the bag, everything starts tasting like mint. Well, that's not so bad. Yes, it is. The mint flavoring is so strong that it infiltrates things that have no business tasting like mint. You open up a Twizzler and there's a hint of mint to it. Okay. No fucking thank you.

That's not great. Yep. All right. You've convinced me. I take it back. Okay. I think I answered this question before, but there's a very real possibility that it was on the episode that we had to rerecord, and so nobody ever heard the answer.

So I'm going to do it again. Lil Pink Kristen wants to know, well, there's kind of two of the same questions. Okay, so Lil Pink Kristen says, Brandy, now as a parent, do you feel differently about any of the parents you've covered? Like the family whose bath time photos were mistaken for child porn? And then DP is my spirit animal follows that up and says, or the episode about Bobby Dunbar. You were very vocal about mothers not recognizing their child. Now that you're a mom, is there any change in your point of view? Okay.

No. I still think that I would know if it was my child. I think in the case of the Bobby Dunbar thing, what I think happened there, and I think that you would want it to be your child so bad that you try to convince yourself that it is. But I think deep down, you know that it to be your child so bad that you try to convince yourself that it is. But I think deep down you know that it's not. I think you would 100% recognize your child. I don't think you necessarily would.

And as far as the child porn ones, no. I mean, I do still think they were innocent pictures. I remember when I took London's first bath picture. Like I put her little washcloth over her little hoo-ha because I wanted to take a picture of her in the bathtub, but I didn't want it to be weird. And a well-placed washcloth makes things totally normal. That's right. That's why I'm constantly sending you my bathtub pics. Hey, Cole asks, OK, the theme of the party

is historical figures. The rules are you have to dress up as a real, not fictional historical figure. They have to be already dead. Let's say you have two weeks to prep. Who are you coming as? Oh man. I am dressing up as King George a la Hamilton.

Because I love the costume. Pretty great. I made my villager on Animal Crossing dress up as King George for a long time. You'd get really hot in that costume. It would be very hot. Yeah. Do you see Jonathan Groff, like, you know, sweating? I've seen it.

It's also, it's so heavy he can barely move. So the fact that he can do that shoulder dance, very impressive. Would you have to do some workouts in the two weeks? Like just getting those shoulders pumped up? Yeah. Do you ever do those shoulder exercises? I always feel kind of silly when I do them, but I still do them. Because, you know, you've got to get those shoulders popping.

Okay, here's the deal. What? Here's the real story. My shoulders are like the strongest part of my body because I hold my arms up all day at work. So you got them buff ass shoulders. I have like that trapezius muscle. Why are you bragging to us? It's like the strongest muscle in my body.

Is that why you wear a lot of off the shoulder stuff to show off dim shoulders? Actually, it's just because I think, yeah, maybe. I really do to show off my tattoos, but maybe that's why I placed the tattoos there. I think so. I think it's all coming together. What historical figure would you dress as? It would totally depend on what party I'm going to and, like, what I'm doing. I know, that's lame.

That's a really lame answer. Let me think. Let me think. Orville Redenbacher. Oh, God. That is so lame. No, what would allow me to be a real hot lady? What do we got?

What do we got? Yeah, you could Jackie O. I would not be a very convincing Jackie O. That would be a great costume to get to wear, though. Like a Chanel-style suit with a little pillbox hat. That would be fun. That would be cool. All right.

It's settled. Jackie O. And you could have like a French twist up to. That's the answer. All right. Perfect for the party we're not going to. That's right. Is this true or is this just like a hypothetical situation?

What? Art Heist Out the Ass says there's a house in Overland Park, Kansas, full of raccoons and raccoon feces. Is that scarier than spiders or snakes? Is this a hypothetical situation or is there really a house in Overland Park, Kansas that's full of raccoons and raccoon feces? Sounds real to me. It probably is real. I think a spider house is still scarier to me.

Raccoons are apparently pretty mean though. Yeah. Those trash pandas are. They look cute though.

That's why it's so confusing. I know. They have this little mask on. I know. They have hands that are almost

like human hands. I can see myself being really stupid with one. Like, aren't you cute? Try to pick it up and then I lose my face. My best feature, because I lift my face up all day. That's why all my shirts have a hole in the neck so that my face is shown. Geriatric Sasquatch has a question for you, Kristen. Oh.

Since you love cheerleading, do you like the Bring It On movies? Well, I obviously loved Bring It On, the movie. I never saw all the follow-ups, though. You didn't see the follow-up ones? No. Bring It On again? Bring It On. Was that the one with Hayden Panettiere where she has to move to the wrong side of the tracks?

I have no idea. Obviously, I've never seen it either. Oh, my God. This isn't a question, but I support this. Michael the Dumb Ho says, I've always supported Brandy and think negative reviews are bullshit, but if I hear Christmas Shoes again, might be a one star coming your way. Yes, sometimes we need to threaten her, everyone. I fully support this.

Oh, Goat Jenga wants to know, what would your celebrity couple names be? So Brandy and David, we'd be Bravid, obviously. Obviously. Kristen and Norm, what would you guys be? Chris Mann. Hottest man alive. I don't know what we'd be. Why did you make a face like, no, that can't happen?

I don't think that sounds good. Chris Mann? We'll use this in Kristen and Norman. Yeah, Chris Mann. All right. What about Norsten? That sounds good. Chris Mann? I'm going to use some Chris-tan and Norman. Yeah, Chris Mann. All right. What about Norsten? That sounds worse. I love Norsten!

Yes! You're Norsten and we're Braven! You know, Norsten and Braven do sound kind of cool. Norsten and Braven sound like douchebags. Norsten and Braven sound like douchebags. They're awesome. Yes. Okay, you know what they sound like? They sound like the guy who just bought a boat.

Yes. Yes. They sure do. Oh, God. They're so smug. Let's leave it there. We have peaked. Norsted and Braven.

From here, we will move on to reading your Supreme Court inductions. And this can happen to you, my friend, when you sign up on our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. That is correct. This week, we're reading your names and your favorite cookies. Justine. I don't like cookies, but I don't mind Pim's. The fuck's a Pim?

I've only heard of, like, a Pim's cocktail, so you're you're saying like I don't like cookies, give me a cocktail? I hope that's what she's saying. Probably not, though. I don't know. I won't have any Oreos, just vodka, please. Carolina. What? This is the one time you

wish you would have read the names. Mandelflarn. Yeah, it's Swedish and kind of means almond. Mandelflarn. Mandelflarn. Oh, I can't come over. I ate too much Mandelflarn this morning. Now I feel sick.

Are people messing with us? Is that a thing? Oh, no. Lauren. Dark chocolate Milanos. Now that is a cookie. Yes. Linda Udy.

Cowboy cookies. Jessica Lopez. Peanut butter blossoms. Madison. My grandma's white chocolate chip cookies. Are you okay? Oh, no. Chelsea Conaway Rollo.

My mom's super secret chocolate chip cookies. Jessica Catron. Snowball cookies. Erin O'Brien. Carrot cake cookie from Crumbled Cookie. That's really delicious. Okay. Jenna Freakins.

I'm sorry. Are you still thinking? Don't be rude to Jennifer. I'm so sorry. Jennifer Higgins. Her favorite is a brookie. It's a brownie and a cookie, and it's not a mandelflorn. Mandelflorn.

You're right. Sorry. Katie Kruzy. Chocolate chip cookies, but without the chocolate chips. You're the second person, Katie Kruzy. I don't understand that. Aaron Pacetto. Mexican wedding cookies.

Sarah Chrysler. What? Chocolate chip tahini cookies? What is that? I don't feel like that would be very good. Isn't tahini an ingredient in hummus? Hummus, I was going to say. You know what I like with my chocolate chip cookies?

Dip it in hummus. It's healthier that way. You know what? First you dip it in hummus, then you add a little mandelflore on top. You crumble the mandelforid on top. Oh, no. Brianne Engel.

Oatmeal scotchies. Sarah Hawkridge. Brandy's chocolate chip cookies. Ooh. Welcome to the Supreme Court. I can't believe mandandal Fires are real. It's been a while since you just totally broke down on the podcast. Sorry!

I love it when it happens. It feels like we're on a wagon and all the wheels have just popped up. Oh no. Biscuits. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five star rating and review and then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the documentary The Twin Inside Me, the article She's Her Own Twin from ABC News, and the You and Me article

by Sam Kean for Psychology Today. I got my info from articles for the Kansas City Star by Tony Rizzo and the court record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. Mandelflorn. Mandelflorn! No, Mandelflorn!