Let's Go To Court! - 186: The Murder of Robert Schwartz & a Mystery in Miami

Episode Date: September 8, 2021

When a utility worker came across Inna Budnytska, he initially thought she was dead. She’d been severely beaten and abandoned in a vacant lot in Miami. She was unconscious, and remained in that state until a team at Jackson Memorial Hospital nursed her back to health. The next day, when Inna felt well enough to communicate with police, she told them her name and asked to speak with her attorney. That struck detectives as odd. Suspicious, even. But the truth was that Inna had just survived a terrible crime. She was alone in America, and her attorney was one of the few people she knew.    Then Brandi tells us about Robert Schwartz, a celebrated scientist and founding member of the Virginia Biotechnology Association. Robert’s colleagues began to worry about him when he didn’t show up for work one Monday morning in December of 2001. A neighbor came to check on Robert in his rural home, and discovered a grizzly scene. Robert had been murdered two days earlier, just as he was preparing to sit down to eat dinner.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Case of the Vanishing Blonde,” by Mark Bowden for Vanity Fair “The Woman in the Suitcase,” episode of 20/20 “Serial rapist was on the loose for years before an abandoned suitcase put a stop to his crimes,” by Chris Kilmer and Allie Yang for ABC News “‘Suitcase rapist pleads guilty in New Orleans and sentenced to 45 years,” by Jim Mustian for The New Orleans Advocate In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Clara Schwartz” episode Snapped “Clara Schwartz: A Deadly Game” by Katherine Ramsland, The Crime Library “Schwartz v. Commonwealth” findlaw.com “Fantasy, reality collide at murder trial” by Jon Echtenkamp, The Fairfax Times “Clara Jane Schwartz” murderpedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a mystery in Miami.

And I'll be talking about the murder of Robert Schwartz. Oh, will ya? A murder, eh? A murder, yeah. Something new and exciting for me. Really mixing things up, are ya? Attention, everyone. I had two cocktails at lunch. Yes, and then

she was banned from speaking on the way home. What did I do to be? And now I can't even remember what I told you. Oh, you were trying to give me wrong directions. Oh, yeah, yeah. On the way home. Everyone. Yes.

Okay. Here's the deal. Yes. We were like three seconds from your house. Literally three seconds. Wait, which way do I go here? And then I was like, never mind. I figured it out.

I got it. And you're like, oh, make a left. Make a left here. No, my delivery was much better. I'm a professional comedian. I have a podcast. I'm sure you've heard of it. It's called Let's Go to Court with Kristen Caruso and that other woman.

And that loud laughing woman. Yes, it was pretty funny. I banned her from speaking. And then she said, wouldn't it be funny if you banned me from speaking for the rest of the day? Which would then just mean that I am delivering the podcast and you're sitting in silence. Do you think you could do it? Sure. You could sit in complete silence while I delivered a case to you.

Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. If one of the two of us could sit in silence, it'd be me. There's not a chance in hell I could do it. Alright, so got that all settled up. No argument there. Should we talk about my hair and about how

you did a lovely 2002 style updo? A beautiful 2002 style updo. A beautiful 2002 style updo, yes. On the most recent Zoom call. Okay, everyone, the barrel curls. There were barrel curls. There were twisties. There were butterfly clips.

Many people commented that they had that exact same style for prom in 2002, 2001, 2003. You know, I didn't do hair in 2002. But you had hair. That's my first 2002 style up to. I thought it looked pretty good. It looked pretty darn good. Pretty darn good. I showed up at my local high school ready to mingle.

And it took them minutes to throw me out fellow children hello i was also born in 1995 but oh no that'd make me oh no that's not even that's way too old oh god i'd have to be born in like 2000 oh god yeah to be in high school now. Oh, yes. Anyway. You have to be bored and, yeah. Okay, shut up. Yes, my nephew is 16 and in high school. Oh, okay. You know what I think we should do an ad? He was born in 2005.

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At Don Valley North, Don Valley North Collection. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. All right, you said you like mysteries. I do like mysteries, and I was going to do like a tie-in to how you said you're telling us a mystery today, and then my brain didn't put it together fast enough. And you screwed it all up, so, yeah. How do you feel about Miami? You know, some say bienvenido a miami

some people do say that people who were born in 2005 don't say that they do not where's the where's the top to your water bottle shut up okay here's the deal i have this water bottle that i love dearly okay and i i carry my water bottle everywhere. Yeah. And I have needed to replace it for a solid year because parts have broken off. Yeah. Now the straw doesn't work anymore. But here's the thing. And it sounds like when you're drinking, it sounds like a nose whistle. People think I'm vaping. Here's the thing. I'm very specific. When I get a new water bottle, it needs to be in excess of 32 ounces. It needs to be a big boy.

It needs to be clear. I want to be able to see, do I need to refill it? Do I need to wait? Why don't you just go online and order the same exact water bottle? Well, because it's plastic. And I don't know. Do plastic water bottles give you cancer? I mean, they all have that sticker.

I think they're all BPA free now, right? They say that. But can you just slap that sticker on anything? I don't know the specifics. It's the cancer that's helped me back. Do you want a glass one? Is that what you're thinking of doing? I mean, they don't make those.

They do make them. Not in the big boy sizes that I want. Oh, you're right. That's true. I want it. Do I need to repeat myself? In excess of 32 ounces, yes. Big boy! Okay. Clear. And I want the

straw to be just how I like it. Okay. Alright. Alright. Are we all fascinated? Jesus. Are we all paying close attention? Pretty serious water bottle woes there, ma'am. See, this is... Norman's been making fun for a long time. He's like, just get a new water bottle.

I think they carry a two-pack of that exact water bottle at Costco. I assume that's where you got it in the first place. No. They carry, let me tell you what they carry at Costco. No. They carry a much smaller version that doesn't hold as much water. Uh-huh. So then you'd have to fill it 30 times a day.

Exactly. So this one I did not fill it 30 times a day. Exactly. So this one I did not get at Costco. Thank you very much. Do you think you can come to my house and tell me what Costco sells? I don't think so. You're absolutely right. My sincerest apologies. Yeah.

All right, boy. Everyone, you almost witnessed the end of the podcast. Brandi trying to tell me what Costco sells. Anyway, you ready for this? I am. I'm ready for a mystery. Okay. So the majority of this comes from The Case of the Vanishing Blonde by Mark Bowden for Vanity Fair.

Oh. And an episode of 2020. What's the title of the episode, you ask? You're not going to tell us. Not going to tell us. Because it gives away too much. It's true. Gives away the mystery. The mystery is that there's a vanishing blonde. We already know that.

Oh, okay. Smug. Very smug. You just told us that, so. Here we go. In your face! It was early in the morning of February 21st 2005 when I was born on okay fine I was born in 1985 don't make that face at me on

the outskirts of Miami Florida close to the suburbs. And this story begins the way a few of these stories do. A utility worker was just doing his job. I know. Yep. Yep. You're already shaking your head. Driving by some empty lots when all of a sudden he spotted a dead body

off the side of the road. And he burped. I don't think he did. No, he didn't. So he stopped the car and made his way to where a young woman lay face down,

naked, and brutally beaten. The utility worker was stunned by what he'd come across, but even more surprised to discover that this woman had a pulse. Wasn't dead? She was

completely unconscious and had been beaten within an inch of her life, but she was somehow alive. So he called the police and pretty soon the woman was airlifted to Jackson Memorial Hospital and once there, the hospital staff began working to save her life. They initially estimated that she'd been unconscious for like 24 hours. The woman, of course, couldn't yet tell them what had happened to her, but the signs were all there, all over her body. She'd been brutally beaten and raped. Oh, my gosh. She had severe head trauma, and the bones around her right eye had been completely shattered. This Jane Doe had been left for dead.

But who was she, and who had done this to her? With the woman still unconscious in the hospital, police went back to where she'd been discovered. They talked to people who lived near the area, but no one had seen anything. They found, like, a blue blanket near where she'd been found, but it wasn't totally clear that the blanket was even part of the crime scene because there was just kind of trash everywhere. And even if her attacker or attackers had at one point used that blanket, investigators weren't able to glean anything from it. In other words, they didn't have shit, Brandy. They had a real mystery on their hands. But the next day, the woman regained consciousness and she couldn't speak she was terrified she hurt all over and she was you know in the trauma center of a hospital all

of a sudden so the police came to talk to her and they gave her some paper so she could write down her answers for them and it was tough because it was immediately clear that English was not her first language. But she was able to communicate a few things to them. Her name was Ina Budnetska, and she was from Ukraine. Then she wrote down the name and number for her attorney, Mitchell Lipkin. What's wrong, Brandy? That seems odd. Why?

That she... Okay. I wake up in a hospital. Sure. I don't have an attorney that I'm giving them contact information for. I think that's a little odd. Okay. Okay.

Well, you know, she wanted to speak with her attorney. But that made what? Okay, all right, all right. This woman has been through a lot. Okay. I will let her speak with her attorney. Very good of you. I'm going to be very judgy, withhold my judgment because it hasn't worked out well for me in the past.

Everyone, just so you know, we recently did a Patreon bonus episode where Brandy was super judgy and super wrong and it was hilarious dick to this guy in your story and i had to take it all back at the end but you know just because brandy's reserving judgment here doesn't mean that the detectives were yeah they thought it was weird that she was asking for an attorney right yeah so detectives were. Yeah, they thought it was weird that she was asking for an attorney, right? Yeah, so Miami-Dade police detective Alan Foote thought that something was afoot. Go ahead and applaud or

laugh, whatever you need to do with a brilliant joke like that. Shake your head disapprovingly. Maybe you just don't get it. His last name's Foote. He thought that something was afoot. Yeah,'t get it. See, his last name's Foot. He thought something was a foot. Yeah, I got it. So he's thinking, why would the victim of a crime be so desperate to speak to her attorney of all people?

Yeah. Seemed weird. But investigators soon learned. What? What? You're tilting that head. I have a theory, but Ina and why she was in Miami. She'd been working for a cruise ship when her finger was severely cut on the job.

I don't, I wish I knew more about this finger cut. Yeah. But anyway, as a result of that injury, she had to go get treatment and the cruise line had put her up at the Miami Airport Regency Hotel. Okay. She'd been living there for months. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like, I don't know. Was that thing a dangling?

I don't know. Don't say a dangling! Well, for you to be up for months. Okay, so yeah, they've reattached it. Now she's going through physical therapy. Yeah, I mean, that's not just like paper cut time. No, I don't think she got a single paper cut. So she'd been living there for months before this attack.

And she was currently engaged in a lawsuit which she'd filed against the cruise line. So, you know, that's a bit about her. But the important thing was this attack. Ina wasn't able to tell detectives much about the attack, but she gave them something to go on. She said that she'd been attacked in her hotel room on the fourth floor. Her attackers had been two men, maybe three, maybe one. What? maybe three maybe one what they'd been white and they'd spoken with spanish accents one of the men had pushed a pillow into her face and you know the rest was just kind of a blur

but bits and pieces came back to her brandy's chin is so in the air, it's like she's saying that something is afoot. But it's not cute because her last name is not foot. She remembered being forced to drink something and that she'd been carried or held or maybe thrown over a man's shoulder and taken down a flight of stairs. That memory was pretty vivid. She remembered that feeling of being kind of taken down the stairs. She remembered being attacked in a car, and she remembered pleading with her attackers not to kill her. And she also remembered someone laughing during the attack.

And that was it. So investigators began looking into this attack and they were not finding much. Nothing they could find matched what she remembered. Pretty soon, they discovered that Ina was suing the Miami Airport Regency Hotel for millions of dollars, claiming that they had lax security. Clearly, they'd let someone into the hotel who shouldn't have been there. Someone should have been monitoring the security cameras. Someone had fucked up big time. But to detectives, this lawsuit made Ina seem even more suspicious.

The first person she wanted to speak with when she regained consciousness in the hospital was her attorney. And now, all of a sudden, she was filing a civil suit against the hotel before anyone really knew what had happened. Okay. What you got, Brandy? Nothing. Nothing. But in theory, it should have been pretty easy to figure out what had happened. The hotel had a ton of surveillance cameras.

And by a ton, I mean 16. They had a camera at the entrance, out back, at the out back restaurant. Just kidding. It was Outback. They had one in the lobby, by the lobby elevator, by the pool, and over the parking lot. Now, worth noting, they didn't have cameras in the hotel hallways or inside the elevator, but you get the idea. There were a bunch of cameras.

That surprises me they didn't have any in the elevator. I'm kind of surprised by that, too, because, you know, we got that famous video of Jay-Z and Solange. I know. So I just assumed every hotel had one in the elevator. Apparently not. Guess not. They said it's for privacy, but I don't really buy that. I don't either.

I mean, if you're worried about privacy, why have any cameras at all? Anyway. Okay. All right. I don't either. Because why would you have, I mean, if you're worried about privacy, why have any cameras at all? Yeah. Anyway. Okay. All right. So there's a bunch of cameras. Plus, the hotel had a big fence around it, and the back gates were always locked and monitored. And at night, the back door was always locked. And there were two security guards on duty at all times, and neither of them ever napped or daydreamed

and rumor had it both of them ate pieces of shit like you for breakfast but um when detective alan foot began combing through the surveillance footage he came back with more questions than answers. There was no footage of Ina leaving the hotel around the time in question. No footage of her being carried or thrown over someone's shoulder like she remembered. Some of the cameras were activated by motion sensors, so investigators went to the hotel and they ran some tests. Could someone sneak by the camera without setting off the motion detector? They ran by really fast, but the motion detector detected the detectives. No.

That's true. It did detect them. It was completely detectable and delectable because they were eating Dunkaroos. They tried another tactic. They went by in slow motion. But once again, the motion

detector detected the detectives. Did they sing while they did it? Slow motion for me. Slow motion for me. They tried to hug the wall. Be like, can you see me? If I suck in my tummy and hold my breath, does the motion detector still detect me? Did it?

Yeah, it did. It did for sure. What about army crawling? Did they try that? I always heard that called like like, a booty crawl. Oh, okay. Well, did they do it? Well, I don't know.

They called it a booty crawl. What's a booty crawl? It's an army crawl. I'm just making this up. I'm sure they tried it all, Brandi. Did they do the worm? They didn't have the talent. Okay, and I wasn't going to bring it up because it seemed rude.

But a bunch of guys tried it and they just flopped. Right on their faces. No one even applauded politely because it was so embarrassing. So, it was official. There was no way to get out of this hotel without being captured by the surveillance cameras. So Detective Alan Foote was like, I think something's afoot. And his buddies were like, Alan, you say that all the time. And he put his foot down and he was like, I'm serious, guys.

I mean it this time. But he was eating a footlong sandwich. And at the time, and both feet were on his desk. And so people couldn't tell what was a pun and what was actually just a part of the story i couldn't look at you that whole time this is all very real brandy yes of course someone in the discord today said they had trouble distinguishing between when we're actually telling the story and when we're off on a tangent. And I just don't get that at all.

I don't understand it at all. How could you get confused? So meanwhile, Ina's civil suit was just chug, chug, chugging along. And the hotel was like, yikes, this could be bad for us. So they hired a private detective to get to the bottom of what actually happened at their hotel. And get to the bottom of that foot. And it was disgusting. Needed one of those cheese graters.

Ew! Oh, God. I've got one of those. It's effective. Do you do that? You cheese grate your own foot? Don't say cheese grater. That makes it sound like I go into the kitchen and get that thing. I've got my own separate tool. Yeah. Yeah, I do it. It works. It works wonders.

Oh, you know what? You're not allowed to ask me these questions and then judge me for my answers. I mean, great. I'm so happy for you. What about that? What about a pet egg? You got one of those? Petty egg? It's basically the same thing. Well, no. Here'm so happy for you. What about that? What about a pet egg? You got one of those? Petty egg?

It's basically the same thing. Well, no. Here's the difference. Okay. The big difference with the petty egg or whatever it's called. It's the pet egg. On an infomercial near you. Is it collects your foot shavings inside of it so that they're not just flaking off?

Well, yeah. I mean, that's obviously mine has a little collector tray. I mean, what kind of psychopath just has that stuff flinging off into the wind? Into the wind! I'm offended you would even think that that would be my way of living. Also, and I'm not trying to brag to you,

but one year for Christmas, my mom got me one of those, like, Sanders for my feet. Mm-hmm. I mean. Did you break it? That is so rude. That thing has some mileage on it, let me tell you. Anyway, this is disgusting.

It is. Do you do this stuff to your feet or no? You're probably fine. No. Like, I'm in a frame. Yeah. My feet are just like... I just get like, you know, a pedicure every now and again.

Oh, yeah, me too. That's all I need. I don't need to bust out the big guns or anything. Just like normal feet over here. Okay, so anyway... No, I do... What? What?

What do you do? I do something that's kind of weird. But I think it's a life hack. What is it? Do you do one of those razor blades to the bottom of your feet? No. No. I'm very weird about removing tissue.

Okay. So they teach you in cosmetology school like that, removing tissue bad. And it's hard to know the line of like dead tissue and live tissue. So what I do. I'm so intrigued. What is it? So when you get out of the shower, if you rub your feet,

whatever, dead skin will come off very easily because it's been, you know, soaking in dim suds. So I... What? Rub my feet with a serum afterwards and that helps soften.

Wait, why were you so embarrassed to say that? Because it's a hair product. What hair product is it? It's Paul Mitchell Super Skinny Serum. Really? It's cell phone based. I put it on immediately after I shave my legs too. It's why my legs are so soft.

I also then take the excess and rub it on my tattoos Makes the colors look nice and bright Wow My body is sponsored by Paul Mitchell's That's crazy Yeah, it helps, it gets off that little bit of dead skin Uh-huh And then, yeah, it leaves a nice little

Moisturizing coat on there. All right. I don't think Paul Mitchell endorses this use of their product, but I like it. All right. All right. Well, that's good to know. Try it out.

You know what I do? Mayo. Stop it. Just all mayo. I smell disgusting, But I'm moist. Gross. Can't accuse me of being dried up. Anyway, so, you know, they decide they're going to hire this detective.

They hired. Ken Brennan. Am I supposed to know who Ken Brennan is? Ladies, ladies, ladies, try to contain yourselves, because I have to ring the Silver Fox Alarm. Oh, is he super hot? Ken Brennan. It's really something, Brandy.

He's got the kind of tan that says, yeah, I go outside. He pumps iron. That's all his tan says? I think I'm so used to staying inside all the time that when I see someone with a tan, I'm like, wow. He doesn't sit at a desk all day, huh? He actually

ventures out there. Yeah, look at that. My goodness. He's got a tan that says, I go outside. Do you want to take that tagline for the tanning salon? Yeah. Put that on the door? Yeah.

Get yourself a tan that says, I go outside. Okay, continue on with your description. Seems like you were about to insult me and then you stopped yourself. I wasn't. I thought it was great. Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay.

Described it perfectly. Brandy, he pumps iron. Okay. And he likes to wear little sleeveless numbers because he's got two tickets to the gun show. I don't think they call them sleeveless numbers. I call them sleeveless numbers. Sometimes he wears shirts that have a real deep V, you know, shows off Dempex. Also, that gold cross necklace.

Oh, of course. And yes, he does ride a motorcycle. And yes, he smoked cigars. And yes, of course, when he was photographed for the Vanity Fair article, he was pictured leaning up against a truck, in jeans, a deep VT, blazer over the top, gold chain a dangling, and a gun tucked right into the dick area of his jeans. Okay. Oh. Isn't that just asking to blow your dick off?

Let me tell you something. It's a very scary photo to witness. I mean, anyone who's, like, afraid of someone blowing their dick off, which apparently I am because I was looking at this photo like, No! Yes, I am equally alarmed by this. You're like three inches to either side, Ken. It's alarming.

You will be afraid for him when you see this photo. I'm afraid for him and I haven't seen the picture. Ken. Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken, Ken. Playing with fire. Mm-hmm. Let me tell you something, Brandy. If you're looking for a solid private investigator, you look no further than Ken Brennan.

He used to be a cop in New York, and he worked for like eight years as a DEA agent, doing ibuprofen busts all up and down the East Coast. Yeah. You know, just... Uh-huh. Busting down the doors! Hey! Get ready to experience an all-new

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. And now he was in Miami, just a divorced guy with two grown kids, lifting weights and being a private detective. Everyone I'm pretending to lift weights. Yeah, but you're doing it like in an aerobics class. Oh, I'm sorry. That's not how kids look. Yes, there you go. You're like jumping around with your leg warmers

on. Don't tell me I didn't look cute. With Jane Fonda. It would be my life's joy. Can you imagine? Yeah. Okay, anyway, I'm sorry. I would die. Yeah.

I would die. Yeah. Okay, anyway. If you're curious, Ken Brennan has been working since like 1975 and he hasn't taken one sick day ever. Which means he's just gotten a bunch of his coworkers super sick.

Yeah. But, you know, he's from that generation that thinks that not taking sick days means you're better than everybody. I hate that. I fucking hate that, too. I hate it. Boomers, you kiss my ass with that stuff. Okay, tell me what you're thinking because I'm thinking things. No, I'm not talking shit.

You do this. You bait me all the time. Uh-huh. Okay. No, I think everybody's great. Did you not want to be inflammatory on this week's podcast? You know what? I popped four ibuprofen right before we started recording.

Druggie. It's an anti-inflammatory. You get it? Oh, shit. I didn't get it. I thought it was just a drug reference. Okay. Anyway.

So, you know, Ken signed on to investigate this crime for the hotel's law firm, but he told them right up front. He said, I have a very particular set of skills. Okay, Liam Neeson. No, no, no, no. He said, skills I have acquired over a very long career. Shut up, Liam Neeson! Skills that make me a nightmare for people like you. Liam Neeson!

If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you. I will not pursue you. Liam Neeson! If you let my daughter go now, that'll be the end of it. I will not look for you. I will not pursue you. But if you don't, I will look for you. I will find you and I will kill you. I can't believe you.

Did you not expect me to get that on the first line? On the first line? I have a very particular set of skills. Yes! I thought it would take you at least two lines.

No! Damn it, Brandy. You underestimated my love for the Taken film. I loved Taken 2. Oh, my God. I loved it. I remember when it first came out, Kyla was like, I just don't know if I can watch a movie about sex trafficking. And that just seemed so heavy.

I was like, no, here's the thing. You never once worry about the girl at all um you just it's all about liam that's right which talk about not a very tough name but yeah yeah he has a particular set of skills i've ever seen so anyway excuse me that's what liam neeson's character said in the timeless film Taken. Here's what Ken actually said, which I think is kind of equally badass. Okay. So just call him. I'll find out what happened. I'm not going to shade things to assist your client, but I will find out what the truth is.

Oh, fuck. He's got a New York accent, which I really can't do. Yeah. Because every time I say New York City, I sound like the guys from the Pace commercials. New York City! So, you know, Ken was on the case, but the Miami police were not happy.

They didn't want some private detective getting up in their business, strutting around in his deep V's, blowing his dick off with his gun. Ha ha ha! But Ken knew how to talk to Detective Alan Foote. No, I swear to you, this is a real quote. It's going to sound fake because it's ridiculous,

but he really said this. Look, you and I both know there's no fucking way you can investigate this case. I can see this through to the end. I won't step on your dick. I won't do a thing without telling you about it. If I figure out who did it, you get the arrest. I won't do anything to fuck it up for you.

That's what he really said? I won't step on your dick, Brandy. I won't step on your dick. I'm not here to pussyfoot around. Okay. I won't step on your dick, Brandi. I won't step on your dick. I'm not here to pussyfoot around. Okay. I won't step on your dick. I won't step on your dick. I think this is the smartest thing you can say to a man.

Because no matter what you're talking about, he's going to be like, Oh, yeah, yeah, what you've heard is true. You could accidentally step on my dick. Happens to me all the time, and I hate it, but I'm glad you brought it up preemptively. My dick follows me around like a T-Rex's tail. Jesus. on like a T-Rex's tail. Jesus.

So, yeah, Alan was so flattered by the idea that his dick was big enough to get stepped on that he shared everything from his own investigation. By this point, it had been like eight months since Ina had been attacked. And Ken didn't have much to go on. But what he did have to go on was quite odd. I'm sorry, I'm very belchy.

Patty, please include all of this. And if you can raise the volume on those burps, that'd be great. Please, God, no. At one point, Ina had said she'd been attacked by one man. Later, she said it was two men. After that, she said it was three. Early on, she said they were white guys with Spanish accents. Later, she said they had Romanian accents. So Ken got started. And where did he start exactly? You looked at me like I was

really asking you that question. I was like, I don't know. You were like, I don't know. I haven't prepared anything from this case. At the very beginning, a very fine place to start. Oh, that's good. Started with a mad hatter. On 2020, he said his investigation began by surveilling Ina to find out if she was really a sex worker. Oh! Brandy's ready to get a badge.

Oh! She's ready to blast off her vagina. Don't step on my dick, Ken! Go ahead and tuck that gun right into your jeans there, Brandy. Turns out, no, she wasn't. Okay, all right, fine. The Vanity Fair article says Ken started with the facts. Ina had used her key card to go into her hotel room at 3.41 a.m. on the morning in question.

Then, about three hours later, the utility worker found her laying in the weeds about 10 miles from the hotel. So at some point in that three-hour window, Ina had to have left that hotel. Yeah. Problem was, there was no evidence that she left the hotel after 3.41 a.m. The funny thing is, the surveillance cameras had a ton of footage of Ina from that night. And man, she showed up vividly on camera. Ina was super cute and petite, and she had bright blonde hair that went down to her shoulders,

and she wore a bright red puffy jacket. You couldn't miss her. Surveillance footage showed that she'd been kind of in and out of the hotel quite a bit that night. She went out to smoke cigarettes. She came downstairs to chat with the employees. At one point, she met a friend for dinner and drinks. Later, at 3.33 a.m., she left the hotel to go buy a phone card so she could call her mom in Ukraine. And when she came back at 3.41,

the surveillance footage showed her coming back to the hotel and waiting for the elevator. The footage from outside the hotel elevator showed her getting on the elevator and like this very large black man getting into the elevator behind her. We're talking six, four, three hundred ish pounds. The footage showed that the two said something to each other. But, you know, it was just a few words and it wasn't clear what was said. And, you know, ultimately he kind of gestured for her to go in front. So it just looked like two strangers kind of, you know. Strangers in the night exchanging glances.

And they did dance. Yes. But here's something weird. The hotel obviously kept a log of the times that people use their key cards to swipe into their rooms. And according to the log, there was a 20 minute gap between Ina getting on that elevator and her swiping her key card to get into her room. So where the hell had she been for 20 minutes? What had happened? It was so strange, Brandy.

Got any thoughts? I've got nothing. I really scared you straight with that Patreon episode, didn't I? I was such a dick to that guy. You know what my dad said this week? So my mom and dad just listened to the bonus episode. My dad was like, you know, that's so good. Every now and then you get Brandy with those things.

You get her going. It's so good to listen to. You ought to do that to her about once a month. What am I, your fucking puppet? When it happens, it happens. You know, he didn't want me to do it to you too often that you'd catch on. Once a month, he thinks you're just going to forget.

Alright, DP. So the police discovered this 20 minute gap and they had assumed that Ina was a sex worker, and that she'd found a John, and that it was that encounter that led to the attack. I had a similar theory. Officer Brandy also thought the same thing. The hotel's insurance company would have loved for Ina to be a sex worker. Because then they probably wouldn't be held liable for the attack on her. So they're like loving this theory.

But again, Ina wasn't a sex worker. There was no evidence to even suggest that. And in the end, the explanation for the 20 minute gap was pretty boring. Ken discovered that the clock on the surveillance camera that covered the elevator and the clock on the system that recorded the

key swipes were not NSYNC. They were Backstreet Boys. I hated that. Because you've always been an NS sync fan early yeah exactly okay anyway yeah so they you know the surveillance clock on the camera was about 20 minutes slow so sorry so ken was back to the original mystery was in sync better than backstreet Boys or was Backstreet Boys better? NSYNC was better.

That's what he came to. So then he got back to this mystery. He's like, mystery solved. Great. He talked to you. So how the hell had Ina gotten out of that hotel undetected? The police had obviously thought long and hard about this, and they'd come up with a few theories.

And before I read any of them out loud, I'd like to remind everyone that there are no bad ideas in brainstorming. Maybe. She'd flown off the roof. Oh, you're not too far off. Maybe the attackers dropped her out the window and onto some bushes, and then they went and retrieved her. But, you know, that didn't really make sense because if they'd done that, she would have had way more broken bones. Yeah.

And the shrubs would be smashed. Yeah. So they came up with a new theory. I think you're going to like this one. They had one of those things that the firefighters have. One of those big trampoline-looking deals. Again, you're alarmingly close. You are not far off.

Maybe the attackers had used like a rope pulley system to lower her gingerly to the ground. Yeah, they had tied bed sheets together. Uh-huh, uh-huh. I mean, my God. Or, you want another one? Yeah. What if, assuming they were multiple attackers and they were all working together, what if one person threw her out the window and the other guy caught her below?

Uh-huh. Yeah. They didn't mention the firefighter thing, but I feel like they were just seconds away from it. Mystery solved. These guys are firefighters. A team of rapist firefighters. Yes. Next theory. Okay. You said the guy that she was spotted going

onto the elevator with was kind of a larger guy. She was kind of petite, so he just, like, tucked her in his jacket and just carried her on out of there. Not bad. Not bad. Not Brandy. I didn't just say not bad Brandy. Instead it was not Brandy.

Not Brandy. Not Brandy. Okay, so we're going to have to give these investigators an A for effort. F for plausibility. So, okay, I feel kind of bad because I'm talking about these investigators like they're total dumb-dumbs. I don't honestly think that's the case. I don't love the way they handled Ina. It seems like at one point they thought she was part of some big con, some...

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, but they did look into this with their limited resources, and their top two suspects for this crime seemed pretty good. The first one was the man that Ina went to dinner with that night. They'd gone out for dinner, they'd gone bar hopping, and then they'd shared a cab, which dropped him off first at his place and then dropped her off at the hotel.

The guy was quite a bit older than Ina, and he also worked for a cruise line, and his name was Peter D'Amelius. And when they looked into his background, they discovered that Peter had been arrested a few months earlier for battery against Ina. The story was that they'd been out at a nightclub, and Peter didn't like the people that Ina was hanging out with, so he grabbed her arm to leave, and she back and they got into a fight and a police officer who

was working security for the club arrested him for domestic violence. So, you know, that's a pretty good suspect. But there was also another decent suspect. His name was George Perez. He was the front desk manager for the hotel and he had a master key to every room in the hotel. What? I feel like that'd be kind of easy to track, though, wouldn't it? I would sure hope so. Yeah. So they had a lot of video footage of him talking to Ina,

and the footage indicated that at one point that night he got on the elevator with Ina and came back like 15 minutes later. Where had he been for those 15 minutes? What had he been up to? George told the police that Ina had been drunk, and he was just making sure she got back to her room safely. But she didn't really look drunk on the footage. And as it turned out, George really hadn't been up to anything shady at all. His big crime was just socializing on the job. Yeah. Yeah, he was just talking. Yeah.

And so investigators asked George and Peter for DNA samples, and they said yes, and the DNA cleared them. Anyway, Ken, the private detective, went back over that surveillance footage. He was sure that he was missing something in there because he, you know, he was very polite about it. But he was basically like with all those, you know, theories. He was like, I don't think she was raped by a team of magicians. I think it was like just kind of a normal, much more normal situation than that. So there had to be something he was missing.

This part took forever. Ken looked into all kinds of people and it was super tedious. And he even considered the possibility that Ina had pulled a Bugs Bunny and gone down the elevator in a disguise. But he kept ruling people out. Until finally there was one person he couldn't rule out. It was the large black man who'd gotten onto the elevator with Ina. The guy appeared pretty normal. He'd gotten on the elevator with Ina and then footage showed him leaving the hotel at around 5 28 a.m. with a suitcase. He came back about an hour later without the suitcase.

Was she in the suitcase? Yeah, so Ken was sitting there thinking, oh shit, this feels like a long shot. But was Ina in that suitcase? My theory was not that far off. I am poking her in his pocket. Oh, come on. You know what? It wasn't that far off. It's not that far off.

But here's the thing. It's a really small suitcase. The type that fits in the overhead bin of an airplane. Oh my gosh. But Ina was a petite woman, much like myself. You want to tell them how small I am? Can you even see me? Squint.

It's a little. I'm so cute. I'm going to need. You are killing me with that water bottle. I'm sorry. What? It's terrible. I know.

I need to buy another one. Yes. I'm giving you an assignment. It takes me so long to drink out of this one. Yeah, exactly. Before next week, you must have a new water bottle. You're not the boss of me. I do apple a jug.

You're just like walking around the house just sloshing fucking water out of that thing. You should have seen me on the treadmill yesterday. I dropped water all over myself. And then it was like, this could be how I die. I slip. Yeah, you slip. Yeah. Uh-huh.

And it's all because I couldn't find the perfect water bottle for me. And then, don't send flowers. Send water bottles? Send water bottles. Create the perfect water bottle so that this won't happen to anyone again. Oh my gosh. Okay, so, you know... It's a super tiny, yeah, carry-on sized suitcase.

So, okay, I am quoting from the Vanity Fair article here. Ken invited a flexible young woman whose proportions matched the victim's to come over and, you know, hop into a very small suitcase. And she fit. How do you think you proposed that? Okay. Okay. Here are my questions.

Did Ken know this woman? Did he find her on Craigslist? Did she think she was about to be murdered? Yes! 100% when she showed up, he had that dick gun. Let me tell you, Mark Browden didn't answer any of my questions here. But, I

watched the 2020 episode this morning. Okay, I have even more questions. Okay. Because this time he was like yeah, I had a girlfriend about Ina's size and she got into the suitcase and I'm like, a girlfriend? How many gals? Was this just a friend who was a girl?

Friend who was a girl. Yeah, I think he's using that real loose term. Because he didn't say, my girlfriend is about Ena's size. Yeah, I had a girlfriend. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Here's what I, I can't shake this.

Here's what I think happened. I think he was at the gym pumping. Have you tried like left to right or? Would you stop that? I think he was at the gym scoping. Oh, I bet he was. Yeah, don't you think? And then he was like, oh, she's very limber.

Look at that stretchy McStretcherson over there. Uh-huh. Yeah. And you know, if they go out to dinner later and something works out, great. Great. Great. If she's super impressed by the dick gun, wonderful. Brandy, if a man came up to you, he was like, I'm a former DEA agent.

I'm now a private detective. I need to see if you can fit into a suitcase for me. You're always so willing to help. You're nothing if not helpful. That absolutely right would you do it yeah oh my god i've asked for some you know credentials oh yeah he's got like a little badge whatever came from party city Does he have the dick gun on him? Sure. Does it make it better that the man has a gun when he asks you to climb into a suitcase for him? Yeah, I think it sends just like a message of authority.

Brandy, when I inevitably cover your murder on this podcast, it's going to be really hard to be like, no, I swear she was smart. I swear. Super smart. Okay, so a girlfriend of Ken's got into this suitcase. And you know, Ken felt pretty good about his theory because in the surveillance footage, the man is wheeling his suitcase and he gets to that weird space

between the elevator floor and the lobby floor. And in that space, the bag got stuck. It was for just a second and the man had to yank on the suitcase with both hands to keep it moving. There's too much weight in that little tiny suitcase. It was heavy because it was holding a human. A human being. A human being. Like a garbanzo bean, but bigger. You're welcome.

Have you ever heard this story before? No. No? Okay. All right. All right. Fine. This is one of my favorite true crime stories.

Do you know? You've heard this one before? Yeah. I remember this 2020 episode from a million years ago. I loved it. No, I don't know it at all. Makes you seem kind of

silly, like the kind of woman who would just jump into a suitcase for some guy. So, what I'm telling you is Ken had solved the case. Yeah.

Oh, wow, you're on board. I am on board! Okay. Well, on November 17th, 2005, he called a meeting with the owners of the hotel and the legal team and the insurance team

and he was like, okay, I found the guy who did this. It's him. A 300-pound, 6'4", black man with glasses. He carried Ina out of this hotel

in his suitcase. And everybody laughed. Yes, everyone laughed. I completely am on board with him. You would be the one person not laughing. I thought that he just like strapped her across his body and zipped his coat up over her. Nope. Which is almost what he did.

One of the people in the room was like, dude, didn't she say that she was attacked by two white guys? And Ken was like, shut up, I've solved the case. It's this guy for sure. Brandy agrees with me. I do agree with him. Ken was certain he was on the right track. He wanted more than anything to find the man from the footage and hold him accountable.

But first he had to convince everyone at the meeting. To stop laughing at him Yeah, and then give him more money to continue the investigation Yeah, so they weren't thrilled about spending more money on this What if somehow this bit them in the ass, you know Anyway, I love this But Ken kept pushing He was convinced that he was on the trail of a serial rapist.

That seems like a bit of a... Well, hang on. Hang on. Okay. Hold on. Dick Gunn, Ken, I was on your side, but sell me on the serial rapist angle here. He'd been doing this stuff for a long time. Never took a sick day, Brandy.

Yeah, that's right. Unlike your weak ass. Never took a sick day, Brandy. Yeah, that's right. Unlike your weak ass. And he knew how most people acted after they just committed a terrible crime. But this guy, the footage showed that he had been stone cold. To Ken, this meant that he'd done this a lot.

Hmm. Hmm. You back on board? Back on the Ken train? Toot toot. Alright, Dick Ken, I'm following ya. Wait, what did I call him before? Dick Gun Ken. Leaving out the gun there.

I wasn't gonna say. What? Please don't harass this man, Brandy. He already has a girlfriend. He doesn't need one more. I mean, unless he's got more luggage. So eventually the hotel is like, okay, keep investigating. We'll foot the bill.

So are you okay? You really should see the picture of this guy. I mean, he looks like he's about to confidently blow his dick off. Yeah, it didn't even hurt. Yeah, it didn't even hurt. So Ken started looking through the hotel's records, but they ended up being kind of useless, which I still don't understand how they could be so useless. You think a serial rapist is checking in with his own identification?

To get out. Do you have like half a turkey sandwich? Well, no, it wasn't that. It was like they took people's IDs, but the copies of the IDs were like really fuzzy. Wuzzy was a bear. Yeah, because nobody gives a shit. Like, are you giving me money for the room? Great.

That's exactly. Yeah, that's exactly what was happening. Please don't blow your dick off while you're in there. Please, if you're going to blow your dick off, put down a tarp. Yes. And plus, no one at the hotel remembered this guy from like a year ago, which of course, yeah, why would you? So he kept looking at the surveillance footage. And he discovered that in a lot of the footage, the guy was with another man.

And in some of that footage, the man wore a shirt that said Verado on the back and Mercury on the front. What's that? Hold your horses. Okay. Because the man was also wearing an ID badge. That's stupid. What? He's not a rapist. What's wrong with wearing an ID badge? Oh, they're in cahoots?

No. Okay. All right. I guess I just assumed, since they were were seen together that they were working together. Listen, you're a terrible, creepy person, and I hang out with you, and I'm the greatest. But Ken couldn't read the ID badge off the surveillance footage. You know, it was too small. So he called up NASA and asked them if they could figure out a way to enhance the footage. Enhance.

Enhance. And they were like, how did you get this number? No, they were like, yeah, dude, we can't help you. We're not, we're fucking NASA. We don't have time for this. I mean, I'm sure he had a connection. No. He acts like a guy who has connections.

Anyway. No. He acts like a guy who has connections. Anyway. So with NASA being quite unhelpful, Ken turned to his Google machine and he Googled Verado and Mercury. And he discovered that Verado was the name of an outboard engine manufactured by Mercury Marine, which I'm sure I don't have to tell you is a boat engine manufacturer. Yeah. And well, well, well, well, well, what is this? In February of 2005, there was a big old boat show in Miami.

Smells like we're hot on the trail or something. Is it a rock and roll boat show? What? Gotta go? What? Okay. Have you been to a boat show? What? Gotta go? What? Okay. Have you been to a boat show? Full disclosure, I'm not sure.

Those are the actual lyrics to a song, but that's how I sing it. What song are you talking about? Bay City Rollers, Saturday Night. Let's hear it, Brandi, while I take out my line. You don't know the song? Hold on. S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y. Night.

Okay, hold on. Now I gotta look up the lyrics. Nope, those are not the lyrics. What are the lyrics? It's a rock and roll folk show. I gotta go. Saturday night Saturday night Saturday night

Saturday night went to the boat show and I'm a big rapist on Saturday night are those not the lyrics? They're also not the lyrics. So anyway.

I always thought it was weird that he's talking about a boat show. Mystery solved. There was no boat show. So maybe these two dudes had been working at the boat show. So Ken called up what? This is an actual boat show.

I'm very excited for it. Yeah, this is a real boat show. Real boat show. So Ken called up Mercury Marine, and he was like, I need the names of all the employees you had staying at the Miami Airport Regency Hotel last February. And they were like, well, that's going gonna be a really short list because we didn't have any employees staying at the hotel oh shit and Ken was like well shit and he's like okay well any chance you can tell me who got those sweet white t-shirts with mercury on the front and verado on the back every single

person who came to the boat show the The guy was like, hang on. Two weeks later, he called Ken back. And he was like, okay, turns out we gave those shirts to people who worked in the food court of the boat show. Okay. All right. All right. This is shaping up to be something. And what do you know?

The food court employees stayed at the airport regency. At least that's what one source said. Another source said that they just gave people, like, a certain amount of money, and they had no idea where people stayed. Anyway, so Ken called the company that was in charge of the food, and they were like, yeah, I mean, some people kind of remember a guy who fits that description, but no one can remember his name. And we're pretty sure he's from New Orleans and he worked in the Superdome.

But... Do they have any fucking I-9s or 1099s on these people? So it sounded real sketch. It sounded like these were just contract employees and it sounded like if you had a pulse, they would... They would work. Yeah. All right.

So they kind of think he's from New Orleans but it was 2005 and Katrina had just hit a few months earlier. And so they were like, best of luck to you. Yeah. The one sort of good thing about this New Orleans lead was that Ken had a buddy in New Orleans. Apparently, one time he went on a family vacay to New Orleans. Apparently, one time he went on a family vacay to New Orleans, and while he was there, probably rocking a deep V in the gold chain, he spotted a young college kid running from the police. What do you think he did?

He tripped him. He ran over, tackled the kid, and held him for the police. and ever since then, Captain Ernest Demme in New Orleans has referred to Ken as Batman, because I guess he was wearing a black jacket and it came out of nowhere. Personally, I'm rooting for the college kid. Seemed like he was about to get away. So Ken called in this favor, and Ernest went out and did some digging, and finally he called Ken back. And he was like, I've got good news and I've got bad news the good news is I've figured out who this guy is the bad news

is he doesn't work at the Superdome anymore and no one knows where he is and his name is Mike Jones. Who? Mike Jones! 2-A-1-3-3-0-8-0-0-4 Call Mike Jones up. I don't know. Because Mike Jones is about to blow! We should say this is a different Mike Jones.

Which illustrates the problem. There's a lot of Mike Joneses. There is. There's a lot of Mike Joneses. So Ken went back to the hotel and he was like, okay, did you guys have of Mike Joneses. There is. There's a lot of Mike Joneses. So Ken went back to the hotel and he was like, okay, did you guys have a Mike Jones staying here that weekend? And they were like, yes, we did. We have his visa

on file. Oh, which has been canceled. And the address on that card was for a home in Virginia, which turned out he hadn't lived in in years. So Ken was screwed. But he wasn't super screwed. Great.

He was like, you know what? If this guy really is a serial rapist, then he has found the perfect job. Getting paid to fly all over the country to stay in hotels and meet women and then disappear is the perfect job for a serial rapist. And this concludes the section of the podcast where I perfect job for a serial rapist.

And this concludes the section of the podcast where I give career advice to serial rapists. So Kim was like, okay, Mike Jones doesn't work for the same place he used to be with, but I bet he's working for one of their competitors. So he started calling up all of their competitors. And these companies were super forthcoming. They like people people peep oh no it doesn't work for us is there any more information i can give you maybe my social security number perhaps maybe the password to my bank account would you settle for my secret to making delicious blueberry muffins but eventually ken encountered a company that didn't grab hold of their ankles the second he walked through the door.

Jesus. Well, seriously, I'm kind of disturbed by how many companies were just like, sure, we'll tell you exactly who works for us. It was Ovations in Tampa, Florida. He showed up at their headquarters, which I spelled with three U's, and he asked the COO, is Mike Jones one of your employees? And the COO said, who? And the COO was like, that's the kind of thing that I'm going to need a subpoena to talk over. I know this is not how you would handle it.

This is a straight Kristen move here. Yeah, it is. You'd be holding them ankles. Handing over the car mags. I'd be putting on a second turtleneck. So Ken called up Detective Alan Foote and was like, can you please get me a subpoena? And old Foote was like, sure.

Bada bing, bada boom. Yes, Mike Jones was employed by Ovations, and he was working out of Friedrich, Maryland. So Ken and a few Miami detectives hightailed it to Harry Grove Stadium, which is obviously the home of the Friedrich Keys, which is a team that obviously plays the sport of baseball, which is similar to the sport of softball, but for boys. Okay? You following? I am. So finally, Ken and the team.

Are they a minor league team? Duh, Brandi, please. What's their major league affiliate? Brandi, we don't have all day to talk about baseball. Believe me, I could. I could talk all day about any sport. Baseballs are hit with

bats and caught with gloves. And that's really professional all the way down to Little League. That's how that goes. Kind of across the board. Anyway, so back to the story. So finally, Ken and the detectives were face-to-face with Mike Jones. And wow, Mike Jones was an intimidating dude.

He was large and in charge, but he kind of seemed like a teddy bear. He was soft-spoken, and he seemed to be well-liked by everybody else he was hanging out with. And they asked him about meeting women in Miami. And Detective Foote was like, well, this was a wild goose chase because clearly they didn't have the right guy. Did they get a DNA sample? Could you hold on to your pants? Could you hold on to the gun that's tucked into your pants?

My dick gun. But, you know, he questioned Mike anyway, and he was like, did you have sex with anyone at the airport Regency? And Mike said no. He'd had sex with a woman who'd been working at the boat show, but they hadn't hooked up at the hotel.

And Mike was so calm and so teddy bear-esque that it was kind of like asking the Paddington Bear if he'd ever raped anyone. And Detective Foote... I don't think he's THE Paddington Bear. His name is Paddington. That's your issue with this?

Excuse me, when you call me a rapist, don't call me THE Brandy Egan. Why would I call you THE Kristen? Maybe you should. So you know, Detective Foote's like, did I really come all this way for this? Did I shave my legs for this? Okay, Dina Carter.

So at this point, old Foote put his foot down. He said, look, I've got a girl who was raped that week did you have anything to do with it and mike was like no of course not no way and detective foot said you didn't beat the shit out of this girl and leave her for dead in a field down there and mike goes oh no no and then he had his fingers crossed behind his back. Yeah.

But what he didn't know was that Ken was behind him. Saw the whole thing. Old dick gun Ken. Standing behind him. He would have seen the whole thing, but the gun accidentally went off. Blew off his dick. Clean off. So he was kind of preoccupied with that.

Yeah. Yeah. And when he wanted to get to the hospital right away, he was moving so quickly, he did step on Alan Foote's dick. After he'd specifically promised not to. No, he wouldn't. And Detective Foote said, you promised. He also stepped on his own dick, which was now like a pile on the floor. A pile of dick.

It was truly a sight. And Mike Jones, a.k.a. the Paddington Bear, went and got a cooler. Yeah. Put it on ice. It was hard to remember that he was still the bad guy in this scenario because he'd gotten the ice, you know? You know what I'm saying, Brandy? And like, he got one of those little jugs of milk and stuck the dick inside there. He didn't keep it fresh.

Okay, now this story's ridiculous. Jugs of milk. That's like 1950s. This happened in practically present day when the high schoolers were born. This podcast is ridiculous. So finally, after all this, you know, it was just a mess. You don't can't have to be transferred to the hospital.

Detective Foote said, are you willing to give me a DNA specimen? Yeah, I can take my pants off. And Mike said, sure. I don't think you should have done that. I got a theory. What's the theory? I think this is actually a smart thing to do. To say yes?

Mm-hmm. Because you think they'll never test the DNA if you give it up willingly. Yeah, I bet you. Because what I'm learning from this story is it takes forever. Now, maybe this is an older story, so maybe it's more fast now. But I bet you a lot of the times if you just give over the sample willingly, I don't know. Yeah. All right.

Again, more advice for rapists. Yeah. So it took a few months, and the whole time Detective Foote was like, well, that was a wasted trip. My friend got his dick blown off, you know. I got my dick stepped on. Our pet's heads are falling off. Got worms. But eventually, the DNA test came back, and it was dino DNA. You didn't say it right.

Dino DNA. Dino DNA. That's four episodes. No, so, you know, it was 100% that bitch, right? This podcast is ridiculous. This podcast is ridiculous. This podcast is ridiculous. This is our silliest episode in quite some time. Okay, anyway.

I blame you. Yeah, so the Paddington Bear is the rapist. Hey, don't call him the Paddington Bear. So that October, Detective Foote arrested Mike for raping, kidnapping, and beating Ina. And our boy Mark Bowden, who did an excellent job writing this article, also did a bang-up job fat-shaming Mike. Are you ready? Oh, boy. It's not enough for the guy to just be a serial rapist.

Here's what he wrote in the aftermath of Mike's arrest. Okay. The accused sat forlornly in a chair that looked tiny under his bulk in an austere Friedrich Police Department interrogation room, great rolls of fat falling on his lap under an enormous Baltimore Ravens t-shirt. Wow! Good lord, Mark! Good lord!

We couldn't just focus on that he's an alleged rapist at this point? Right, right. Fuck! What's worse? That he's a rapist? Or that he's fat? It's a toss-up, I tell you. It's neck and neck.

Jesus! So when they confronted Mike with the DNA match, he finally admitted to having sex with Ina, but said that he thought she was a sex worker. He said he'd paid her a hundred bucks, and when he left, she was fine, just drunk. Yeah, he and his buddy had gone out to a strip club. They'd seen Ina outside the hotel. Obviously, she was a hooker, so, you know, he went up to her room,

and she whispered, $100, and, you know, that's how it went. That's how it went, okay. Ken was, of course, right there for the interrogation with ice on himself. And he was like, so tell me, why did you roll your suitcase out to the parking lot and put it in your car at 5 in the morning when you weren't even scheduled to check out of the hotel for, like, two days? And Mike was like, uh, I was just confused. I thought we were leaving that day. So I put my suitcase in the car, and then I went out and, you know,

got myself a soda at 7-Eleven because, you know, I was already awake. And, uh, sir, if being confused and drinking a soda is a crime, then lock me up. No, bullshit. I'm sorry, you've never been confused while drinking a soda? Not regularly. And Ken was like, hmm. So what'd you have in the suitcase? And Mike said he had some clothes.

Some shoes. Enormous clothes! Yes! Where did he even find that enormous Baltimore Ravens shirt? He also had a video game. It was Aladdin for the Nintendo Entertainment System. Well, it's not. It just said a video game,

which I thought, well, surely. Yeah, you're just traveling with one video game. One video game? Some kind of video game system. Hoping there's a system? Yeah. I don't know.

Anyway, I like to think it was Aladdin. I like to think he had a Tamagotchi in the background. And the Tamagotchi was very good for him because it stopped him from committing

more crimes because he's like i gotta feed this thing this little guy yeah so ken was like hmm sounds like a pretty light load but your suitcase couldn't have been too light look how it got caught between the elevator floor and the lobby floor you had to give it a big yank. And Mike was like, oh, yeah, I totally forgot. I also had a bunch of books in my suitcase, like very big, very heavy books. And bars of gold. I love to read. I wish I was reading right now. And Kim was like, okay, what were some of the books that you read on that trip?

And Mike was like like I can't remember I can't even remember the book I just pulled out of my pocket a few minutes ago I can believe that you don't remember the books you read on a vacation on a work trip a year ago but like you've got a book in your pocket

and you don't know what book it is what if it was a walk in your pocket and you don't know... What book it is? What if it was a walk-in in his pocket? That's the book they had in his pocket. Yeah, I get it. I've got a walk-in in my pocket in my pocket. And he was embarrassed to say it for obvious reasons. That's exactly right.

So, you know, this might have been a satisfying moment for Ken and the detectives, but the truth was that their case against Mike kind of sucked. It was a he said, she said case, and because Ina had been so badly beaten, her memory from that night was foggy. She thought there were multiple attackers, and she thought they'd been white, and she did eventually pick Mike Jones out of a lineup. But what? So, okay. Dick Ken's theory. Dick Gunn Ken's theory. Shit. Is that he's a serial rapist. So they run his DNA through, like, the system.

Brandy. Brandy. Brandy. Brandy. Can you hold all of your horses? Okay, continue. Sorry. Weak, super weak case at this point.

He said, she said, bullshit. Yeah. Jesus Christ, superstar. So the DA's office was like, this case is pretty weak. Maybe we should run his DNA through CODIS. I'm just kidding. It doesn't have any. The suitcase had never been recovered. Office was like, this case is pretty weak. Maybe we should run his DNA through CODIS. I'm just kidding. The suitcase had never been recovered.

Any evidence that might have been in the hotel rooms or in Mike's rental car had obviously been cleaned away. What are you looking at right now? I got a text message from David. It's his birthday. Happy birthday. Okay, it makes it sound like he texted you happy birthday. No, he didn't. Happy birthday, David. This is going to come out a week after his birthday.

We should have told him happy birthday the last episode. Do you think he'll hear this now and be like, fuck you, too? Yeah, that's exactly what he's going to say. Fuck you, Kristen. Sounds like him. Yeah, it sounds just like him. Sounds like him. Yeah, sounds just like him.

I would like to share with the audience that we all went to a charity event together for Kyla's work. Yes. David did a great job sneaking me extra glasses of wine and I snuck him steak sandwiches. This is a real teamwork makes the dream work kind of situation. You know, we got home from that and David said he thought he ate six steak sandwiches. They were tiny steak sandwiches. Yeah, don't worry, everyone. They were just like bite-sized. Bite-sized steak sandwiches.

Okay, I'm sorry. Back on track. The DA's office is like, this case is pretty weak. By the way, that charity has no money for the kids anymore. Yeah, because David ate all the steak sandwiches. And I drank all the wine. I'm sure the kids think it's worth it. I'm sure they do. So they gave Mike a deal.

They did? Well, yeah. You heard the case. What? What? I, for one, don't make deals with rapists. I mean, I don't make deals with anyone. Plead guilty to sexual assault and they drop everything else.

And he took the deal and he got two years in prison. But Ken was still convinced that Mike was a serial rapist, and Brandy, keep your pants on. Ken was right, because when they put Mike's DNA into CODIS, they got three matches to unsolved rape cases. Yes. Wow. There were two victims in New Orleans and one in Colorado Springs,

and they all had chillingly similar stories. The woman in Colorado Springs had been walking home at 2.30 a.m. on the morning of December 1st, 2005. She was walking home from a convenience store when a large black man with glasses offered her a ride. She accepted and they got to her apartment and he was like, hey, could I please have a glass of water? And she said, sure. She let him in, got him a glass of water. And after he finished it, she asked him to leave. But the second she asked him to leave, his demeanor changed. asked him to leave, his demeanor changed. She said she saw this like other side to him. And he raped her. And the whole time he was eerily calm. She couldn't shake the feeling that he'd done this many times before.

One of the other survivors was a woman in New Orleans. She said that she'd been partying in the French Quarter in the early morning hours of May 5, 2003, and she went looking for a cab, and a large black man with glasses offered her a ride. And he drove her to an empty lot and raped her. The other New Orleans woman had a similar story. So by this point, it's 2008, and Mike was about to finish his prison sentence for raping Ina. But the justice system wasn't done with him. As soon as that sentence ended, he was flown out to Colorado Springs to stand trial. A lot of rape cases are tough to prosecute.

But this one was especially difficult because the rape survivor in Colorado had passed away. Not from anything related to the rape. So since Deputy District Attorney Brian Cecil didn't have who he wanted to put on the stand, he had to get creative. He asked Ina and one of the women from New Orleans to come testify in Colorado. His idea was that these other women would illustrate that Mike was a serial rapist and that this was his pattern. Did they allow that? They sure did. Wow!

Mm-hmm. On the stand, the New Orleans rape survivor had a pretty clear memory of what happened that night, and she made for a very strong witness. It also helped that when she was raped six years earlier, she'd worked with a sketch artist who'd created an image of the man who'd attacked her. And hot diggity dog, it looked exactly like Mike Jones. Wow. Ina wasn't as strong a witness. In fact, in his article, Mark wrote that she was every bit as bad on the stand as the Miami prosecutors had feared, which I hate on so many levels. English is not her first language, and she'd been beaten nearly to death.

Yeah. So, of course, she didn't have clear memories from that night. Of course, I just hate it all. But Mike's defense argued that he'd only ever had consensual sex with these women they also argued again about the women being sex workers but again there was zero evidence that any of them had been sex workers which is beside the point because we're talking about rape we're not talking about whether you had sex with a sex worker, after hours of deliberation, the jury agreed with me. Mike Jones was sentenced

to 24 years for sexual assault with force and 12 years to life for felonious sexual contact. Wow. But we're not done because in 2015, he pled guilty

to the two rapes in New Orleans and a Louisiana judge gave him 45 years. Holy shit! Ina eventually settled her civil suit against the hotel. She got about $300,000. And that's the story of how a private detective caught the suitcase rapist, which is what some people call him, but now I'm realizing it sounds like you raped suitcases.

Which seems like a victimless crime. That's in poor taste, Kristen. Sorry. I forgot that some of your closest friends are suitcases. Suitcases! That was fascinating. Was it really?

Yes! I loved hearing about Dick Gunn Ken. Okay, let me pull up a picture. Yeah, let me see it. What's his name? Ken what? Ken Brennan. Ken Brennan, private investigator.

Go to images. It's the third image on Google. I gotta click it. Oh, yeah, that gun really is right on his dick. It sure is. And he doesn't look the least bit concerned. He's more grizzled looking than I was picturing him. Sorry to disappoint you.

I do see him here in a shirt with a sleeveless cut. They call that a sleeveless number. Very good. All right, let's talk about a murder. Okay. The majority of this comes from an episode of my favorite Oxygen show. Ew, Snapped? Yes.

I hate that show. You know I love it. I know you do. You're obsessed. It was December 10th. What if one day I snap because you've told me too many episodes? Too many snaps, and then you end up on an episode of Snapped. And I'll hate it.

Yeah. Yeah. Would you do interviews from prison? Oh, yeah. I guess because I'm the... Yeah. Yeah. No, because I know how they would paint me.

I've got the vagina, so therefore I snapped. Like one of your French girls. Anyway. Anyway. Anyhow. It was December 10th, 2001, and Robert Schwartz hadn't shown up for work. Bob, as he was known, was a nationally renowned scientist in the field of biometrics. He was a prominent DNA researcher and one of the founding members of the Virginia Biotechnology Association. Oh, really? Yeah, he was a big damn deal. Okay, okay. He was extremely punctual and missing work was, of course, out of character for him. Bob was a widower. He'd

lost his wife a few years earlier after a long battle with cancer. And now his three children were grown or away at college. So he lived alone in a historic log and stone farmhouse in Leesburg, Virginia. Oh, my God. That sounds so cool. It was. It's very cool looking. Do we have the address?

I don't have the address. I didn't. Damn it. I honestly didn't even try to look it up. Wow. Because on the show, they show many pictures of it. And you're like, hmm, I'll just soak up all this knowledge for myself. Mm-hmm.

Very rude. Bob's coworkers were very concerned with his absence on that December day. And even more so when an important meeting he was supposed to attend started and there was still no sign of him. Calls to his home had gone unanswered. So coworkers contacted another colleague or friend of Bob's. It's a little bit confusing who this guy was. And they were like, hey, can you go to Bob's house and check on him? And this guy was working about 40 minutes from Bob's house at the time and he was unable to leave work right away. But he happened to have the contact information of one of Bob's neighbors, this guy

Sam Welsh. And so he contacted him, filled him in on the situation. And Sam was like, yeah, I'll go on over there. I'll check on him. Yeah. This area was pretty rural and the Schwartz home itself was kind of situated at the top of like a little mountain. What do you mean? I wish I could picture it. I was like, what the fuck? What do you mean? What do I mean? I mean, it was a rural fucking house on a mountain. I don't get it. I don't get it. It had this long, winding gravel and dirt driveway. And the weekend had been rainy, which made the couple of mile drive that Sam Welsh had fairly difficult.

So this was a pretty rural area. There were some neighbors, but everything was really spread out. So Sam, even though he was a neighbor, was a couple miles away. So it was rural is what you're saying. It was pretty rural. Are you understanding it now? I think I am. Sam had to put his vehicle in four-wheel drive to make it up that steep, windy driveway.

When he arrived at the Schwartz home, he saw that Bob's car was there, which was not a great sign. Yeah. that Bob's car was there, which was not a great sign. Sam kind of walked around the house knocking on doors, and then he came upon like a side door, I think, which like entered into the kitchen. And the door itself was like pulled to but not latched, and so he just kind of pushed it open and went inside, and he was greeted with a grisly scene.

There on the floor lay Bob Schwartz. He was cold to the touch and clearly dead. He'd been brutally murdered. There were more than 30 stab wounds to his body. And there was blood everywhere. Or, as Sam Welsh put it on this episode of Snapped, there was blood

basically all over the place. Yeah. Which I really enjoyed. Ew. No, I just liked the way he said it. Yeah, all right, all right. Sam rushed back out

to his car and called 911 and then Bob's colleague and alerted them of his gruesome discovery. When police arrived on the scene, they pretty quickly determined that Bob had been dead for a couple of days. Oh. They placed the time of his death right around dinner time on December 8th, which was, this was Monday and that was on Saturday. Oh, okay. It was clear that Bob had been killed in the middle of his evening routine.

He had the table set for dinner, his food was all made, but he hadn't eaten any of it. Beyond that, though, the crime scene yielded few clues. There were no fingerprints, no sign of forced entry, nothing was missing from the home. And the authorities now had the very difficult task of making a death notification to Bob's three children. So they made the 100-mile trip to James Madison University, where his daughters, Michelle and Clara, were enrolled. He also had a son who was older than Michelle and Clara. I believe he had already graduated college.

I assume they made a death notification to him as well. But that was not covered on this show. Obviously, death notifications, I can't imagine, are ever an easy thing to do. But in this situation, it seemed even more difficult. These were two young women who'd lost their mother just a few years earlier. They were at like formative points in their lives. And now police were tasked with informing them that their father had been brutally murdered. Michelle, the older daughter, was devastated by the news.

She sobbed. She collapsed. She couldn't believe it. And then there was Clara. Her reaction was different. Like a murderer's reaction? She was calm. Unemotional.

She didn't cry. She had only one question. How? How did he die? Claire's reaction was alarming enough to police that they thought it warranted an investigation into her. And I mean, at this point, they basically had nothing else to go on. Yeah. So they started looking into her background.

else to go on. Yeah. So they started looking into her background. Clara had been like 14 or 15 when her mother passed away, and Bob knew that losing her mother at that age would be really hard. So he bought her a horse as kind of a therapeutic outlet for her. And Clara loved her horse. She rode it all around their property. She took great care of it.

But as she got a little bit older, her interests began to shift. So they make a point of this in all of the articles and everything about this being because of the loss of her mother. I actually think this just has more to do with her age and stuff. Her interests really changed.

She started dressing in all black and listening to Marilyn Manson. And she got very into fantasy role-playing games. She liked Dungeons and Dragons. She went to a lot of, like, Renaissance festivals. Clara was so into fantasy role-playing games that she actually invented a game of her own. Clarabelle. Yeah, Clarabelle.

It was called The Underworld. Okay. And she dubbed herself the High Priestess of Chaos. And the game involved vampires and orcs and assassins. Oh, my. All kinds of things. I don't really get into these kind of games. She was very into it. You're passing some judgment.

I know. I could tell it to my voice. I really had planned to deliver this with less judgment. I'm having trouble with it. You were mildly judgy about the horses. You're like, she's a horse nerd. She really is.

She really is a horse. Now she's just regular nerd. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Loves fantasy role-playing games so much that she invented one all by herself. She's not like one of those cool women who's like 30 and builds Harry Potter Lego sets First of all, I'm 35.

And I fucking love Harry Potter. so eat a dick, Kristen. I might step on one first. And as they looked into this, more detectives uncovered that Claire had, like, a tight-knit group of friends that she engaged in this fantasy gameplay with. They went to festivals together. Was there sexual stuff? No. Okay, then why are you saying fantasy games?

You're just about to throw up. No, it's not a sexual thing at all. But they were very they spent a lot of time immersed in this fantasy world. Okay. It's totally fine. It's super natural.

It's a totally normal, natural thing. Did you mean like supernatural all one word? No. Super. Super. Space. Space. Natural.

Okay. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so she has this group of friends. They all have specific roles in this world, this fantasy world. And those friends were Katie Inglis, Michael Poffon. I believe it's pronounced Fole, but it looks like Poffon. And Kyle Holbert. When they came upon those names, the investigators were like, hold on.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Silver Fox alert. Oh, wait, different kind of alert. Yeah, different kind of thing. The Orc alert or whatever. What's an Orc? I don't fucking know. I was sitting here.

When you first said it, I was like, oh, God, this is embarrassing. I don't fucking know what it is. I think it's like a little creature, like a monster. How do you spell it? O-R-C. little creature like a monster how do you spell it orc it's like a monster right like a goblin oh god oh he doesn't look like a goblin okay well when you google it one of the first things that comes up is orcgasm maybe there was sex involved an erotic fantasy thriller or, Orchgasm, by Maddie McNeil. All right, Maddie McNeil. Okay, well, I didn't gather from any of these articles that there was a sexual side to this fantasy role play.

Looks like I would have been way more into it had there been eight ratings. It's free on Kindle Unlimited. Oh, great. Anyway, they're like, ding, ding, ding. We've heard those names before. Did you find out what an orc was? Could you stop? What are you doing?

I'm sorry. I'm reading the description. Now I have to look up orc for myself and not orcgasm. Oh, I'm sorry. I looked it up. Yeah. They're like little creatures. A mythical creature such as a sea monster, a giant or an ogre.

Warning. Contains graphic orc sex scenes and mature erotic content. Mature audiences. Only 18 plus, Brandy. Anyway. Yeah, please, let's move on. Anyway. Yeah, please.

Let's move on. Anyway, for the third time now, investigators are like, whoa, what's this? We've heard those names before. It turns out. Kristen, stop it. Turns out there's a ton of this orc erotic. I believe it. These people were very into these fantasy games. You have no idea yet how into these fantasy games these people are.

I'm sorry, I'm stopping now. So, again, for anybody who hasn't heard. Don't like it when I jump around, huh? Investigators were like, oh, those names sound familiar. Because while they were looking into Claire's totally normal hobbies, they were also talking to Bob's neighbors to see if anyone had seen or heard anything the night that he had been murdered. Obviously, we know that this was a long shot because I don't know if you heard this, but the area was rural and the house is very far apart. But they actually lucked out. They talked to one of Bob's neighbors and that night it had been like a rainy Saturday night and there'd been a knock on this guy's door. He opened the door and there was a young man standing there. And he was like, hi, my car got stuck in the mud.

Could I please use your phone to call a tow truck? Whoa. And the neighbor had been very polite. And he was like, absolutely. And he said the young man had been very polite. He came in. He introduced himself as Kyle Holbert. himself as Kyle Holbert.

And he accepted a nice little cup of hot tea because he was wet from the rain and then he used the phone to call a tow truck and he waited there until the tow truck got there. When the tow truck had come, they had found the car that was stuck in the mud and there

were two other people in the car. Would you like to guess who they were? Katie and Mike. The orc. Were they having sex in the back of the car? They were having orgasms, yes. Can you hear an orgasm from far away? I don't. Even if it's a rural area?

I don't know. The answer is yes. The sound carries. Wait, so they didn't come up too? Were they like, hey, we all just murdered someone. Can one of us do the job? Is that it? No.

So they were just waiting in the car. Tow truck gets there. They get them pulled out of the mud. They have to tow the truck out, like tow it out. So the tow truck driver gives these three a car. They pull this truck to a tow lot. And because they're now leaving this car in a tow lot because it was, I don't know, incapacitated somehow because it got stuck in the mud, I don't really understand. He got contact information for all three of these people.

Katie Inglis, Mike Poffel, and Kyle Holbert all gave their names and addresses to this tow truck driver. Well, maybe it's because it's their fantasy role play things that did the killing. And they're like, I'm Mark Paffol. Mike Paffol. Mike Paffol. Yeah. Are these kids the dumbest murderers that have ever been yeah they just like yeah here's our information and so the police like talk to this guy this

neighbor and he's like yeah this is the tow truck company we call they call up the tow truck company and the tow truck driver's like oh yeah i'm the one that took that call here let me check my logs i'm pretty sure i've got their information sure Sure enough, here it is. And so the police just go and they track down Katie and Mike, who are in a relationship. They're living together. They go to Katie and Mike's house. And they are like, hey, why don't you come down to the station? Let's have a little chit chat. And Katie and Mike come on down and fully cooperate.

We're talking like this is like the day that Bob Schwartz's body is found. They are sitting in an interrogation room and they spill all the fucking beans. They're like, yes, we were at Bob Schwartz's house that night. Here's what happened. We're great friends with Claire Schwartz. Kyle's kind of newer to the group. We met him at a Renaissance festival. He met, he met Clara first and she introduced him to us, said he's an assassin. On the night in question, we picked up Kyle and he said he had a job to do and he needed a ride., asked us to take him to Bob's house. And so we did.

We didn't really know what he was going to do there. But now that we think about it, I guess we really did know what he was going to do there. Because Clara was having major problems with her dad. He was abusing her. Was he really? No, it seems that he wasn't. But she'd gone to these great lengths

to tell these stories to her friends about how her dad was poisoning her and how he wanted her dead. And she'd really, really tasked Kyle with saving her and protecting her from her dad.

So this is where, like, things got kind of tricky. So Kyle was a very complicated individual. He had been a ward of the state since he was, like, six years old. And this is an example of how terrible we are in the United States with dealing with mental health issues. He had been diagnosed with schizophrenia at a very young age. He'd been in and out of institutions and he'd become a ward of the state. His mother had left. His father didn't feel like he could care for him. And then when he turned 18, And then when he turned 18, he was just left on his own.

Wow. He had aged out of the system. Yeah. And so they just like. Goodbye. Goodbye. Go figure out how to live. And so he had no family to speak of.

He made like one friend at some point that he ended up living with for a while. And it was at that time that he met Clara at this Renaissance Festival and he latched on to Clara and her group of friends as this form of family. And Clara told him these stories, these different stories about how her dad wanted her dead and her dad didn't understand her lifestyle. And her dad was so terrible. And if she didn't get good grades in school, she got in trouble. And how he was poisoning her and how she could prove it because one time she brought him this meat that her dad had cooked and he could just smell the poison in it.

Okay. Yeah. okay yeah and so on this particular night this is what katie and mike tell these investigators they're like yeah we picked him up and he was armed with a sword and we stayed in the car while he walked up to the house and and they're like we don't even really know at what point the you know fantasy stopped and reality began. But apparently he went into the house and he murdered Bob Schwartz with a sword. With a sword? With a sword.

With a sword. Oh, my God. It was very clear to the investigators that Katie and Mike didn't have a real strong grasp on how serious the situation was because Mike in his initial interview called it a big oopsie. What? Yeah, it's just kind of a big oopsie, this whole thing. Was he thinking if he downplayed it, he could trick everybody else? I think he had to have thought that, yeah. At first, Katie and Mike both told investigators that they weren't really sure what Kyle was going to do there that night. They knew that they were taking him there.

They knew that he had the role of assassin in their fantasy game. But that they didn't really believe that he would take it as far as actually killing Bob Schwartz. Well, what they think he was going to do. Exactly. And that's what the interrogator said. And they were like, well, you know, when it gets down to it, I guess I guess we really did know. And so at that point, Katie and Mike were arrested. And then they needed to track down Kyle, but Kyle was like had left.

So this happened in Virginia, kind of the Washington, D.C. area. And Kyle had left the Virginia side and headed over to Maryland. And so now he's in another state, which just makes things more complicated. So they had to get the Maryland authorities involved. And they go and they bring him into like a police station in Maryland. And he confesses immediately, too. Wow. He's like, yes, I went there that night. I was dressed all in black. I had gloves on. I had a black hair covering so that I'd leave no sign that I was there.

I knocked on the door. I had met Bob Swartz a couple of times. He let me in. And when we walked into the kitchen, I pulled the sword out from the back of my trench coat. Oh, my God. And I stabbed him repeatedly. And he's like, but I had to. And they're like, what do you mean? He's like, I had to save my friend. You know, I hadn't known Claire that long. They'd only known each other a few months.

But she was my family. I loved her as if she was a sister. And she was suffering at the hands of her father. hands of her father. And he went on to tell them all of the stuff that Clara had told her about how she was being poisoned by her father and how she had this. So Clara had confided in him that if they made this trip to the Virgin Islands over Christmas, that she knew she would not come back. She knew her father would kill her on this trip. And so Kyle had no choice but to save his friend that he loved like a sister. So then Kyle was arrested

and he was charged with the murder of Robert Schwartz, as were Katie and Mike. But at this point, investigators have this wild story that's kind of tangled in this fantasy world, but they don't know what Clara's connection was to this. Like, how involved was she? Was this something that she had ordered? Was she the ringleader here?

And so at this point, they've made these arrests like two days after Robert's body was found. They also by this point had executed a search warrant on Katie and Mike's house and they found the sword and it had been freshly cleaned. When they pulled it out of the sheath it was actually still wet. Oh wow.

So now they're trying to like match up with Clara to get her to do an interview. And they like talked to her at her dorm briefly. But then she like was like, oh, I have to get somewhere. Let's schedule something, whatever. And she was just real like real hard to pin down. And so they sat down for her their first official interview with her 10 days after her father had been found murdered. And it was the same day as her father's funeral. In that interrogation, they talked to her for five hours. She was extremely cold, very unemotional.

Was she able to show the emotions? No. She told them that she had a very strained relationship with her father. She just couldn't live up to his expectations. He wanted her to be like her older sister, Michelle. Michelle was beautiful and popular and did well in school and had lots of friends. But she didn't want to be like that. She specifically said, I don't want to be normal.

Normal is boring. During that five-hour interview, they kind of circled around some claims that her father was abusive. And Claire did not make the same claims that she had made to her friends. She said that he was really hard on her about her grades. If she brought home Cs, she might as well have brought home Fs. That's how he responded. He wanted her to do really well in school, and she just wasn't. And that he'd hit her before, but, you know, he apologized a couple days later.

And the interrogator was like, did that make it better? And she kind of brushed off the question. I don't know. What? I'm not saying that her claims of abuse are false. There just seems to be no evidence of them. Okay. Nothing to back up any of these stories that she has told.

So at that point, they don't think they have enough to connect her to her father's murder. There was proof that she was at school and 100 miles away the day that her father was died. So they let her the day that her father was murdered. So they let her go at that point. Mm hmm. And they would continue investigating her for like two months. In February of 2002, they finally executed a search warrant on her dorm room.

Specifically, they wanted access to her computer to check her IM logs. I believe this came from further conversations with her friends. Yeah. But they wanted to get on her computer, check her instant messenger logs. And there's this really funny point on this snapped episode where the prosecutor's like, you know, any time you have a conversation through an instant messenger, that conversation stays on your computer somewhere on the hard drive.

No. Oh. Wow. I was really glad they spelled that out because I was like, what are they going to find on her computer? Yeah. But it turns out they didn't even really need to dig that deeply because

Clara kept all of her she saved all of her instant messenger chat logs like in a nice little file. Well that's convenient. Mm-hmm. And so they looked through those

and they found evidence of her talking with Kyle about murdering her father. They used some code words. They called it taying. Tay called it taying.

Taying? Taying. I don't know if that's like an actual word that people use for murder or if that's like maybe part of their fantasy role-playing game.

Hmm. Okay. Yeah, I'm looking here. I'm not finding anything. Yeah, there were some other points in this story where they talk about how they had some, their own language and some code words inside of their totally normal fantasy role playing game, The Underworld. Sounds like you're just jealous that you were never invited into one of these things.

That's exactly it. Mm-hmm. And so. I'm the high priestess of Costco. Yes, you are. And so there's, in these chat logs, Kyle is bringing up how he's going to tay her dad and, you know, tay her father. And they had a nickname for him. He was called OG, Old Guy.

He was a character within their world as well. He was like the villain. And each time Claire was like, let's talk about this in person. Let's, I don't want to talk about this on here. Mm-hmm. here. And then they were able to put together, based on Katie and Mike's version of what had happened, that they actually came out the weekend, a weekend or two before Robert was murdered. They came out to visit Clara at school. And it seemed to be when maybe Clara had given her final plea to Kyle for this to be done.

And then when they executed this search warrant, they found that Clara had written him a check for $60. And there was. $60. $60. was to cover gas money to drive to the house and for him to purchase gloves and something to cover his hair for when he went to the house that night. So armed with that evidence, they decided they finally had enough to arrest her and charge her with murder and conspiracy to commit murder. Don't you wonder what it was like to be Clara's roommate? Oh my gosh, I hadn't even thought about that. That was my first thought.

Hadn't even crossed my mind. Because you know they had to be bizarre. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. Okay. Was she a freshman? She was a sophomore, I believe.

Okay. Yes. was she a freshman she was a sophomore okay okay yes clara schwartz trial began in october of 2002 and at her trial the prosecution claimed that clara was the mastermind and the ringleader behind this whole thing yes mike and katie and kyle had been the ones to go to the scene kyle had been the one to do the actual killing. But these were all under the orders of Clara. The prosecutor told the jury Clara Schwartz wanted her father dead. She had hated her father for a long time. She wanted to describe Clara as a manipulator who labeled herself the grand priestess of chaos or whatever it was.

Please be respectful of those titles. And the prosecutor went on to say, make no mistake. She called the shots. She was the overlord of the underworld. OK. I like it. Sounds like you are the loyal servant of. I like it. Sounds like you are the loyal servant of

Skinny Serum. But the defense team tried to get up and paint a different picture of Clara. She was simply a troubled young woman who had gotten herself just completely enmeshed in a fantasy world. And she had trouble

discerning what was real and what wasn't. And somehow she had managed to stumble upon a friend, a troubled friend, who took her literally instead of seeing that all of this was part of the fantasy role-playing game. Her defense said that Holbert had carried out this directive to kill her father, which was merely part of the game, not a genuine request in reality. I think that's a good tactic. Of course. Yeah. I think that's a good tactic. Of course.

Yeah. The defense told the jury, the dark, almost silly world of Clara Schwartz collided with the sinister, dark world of Kyle Holbert. Clara Jane Schwartz never intended for any person to kill her father. Hmm. So the prosecution was like, I don't think so. And they put a surprise witness on the stand. Are you ready? For real?

For real. I thought that only happened in the movies. Patrick House turned out to be one of the prosecution's star witnesses. And he got up there and he told a story that completely backed up the prosecution's case and like completely threw the defense's attempt out the window. Well, who is this Pat House boy? So Patrick House was Clara's former boyfriend. They had met at a Celtic festival in Leesburg, Virginia.

Obviously, they'd met in June of 2001, and they'd quickly become a couple. So Patrick and Clara were a couple, and then we got Mike and Katie. They're a couple. The two couples hanging out all the time. And they were also playing Underworld all the time. Did they have costumes? Oh, yeah. Oh, man.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Did the ladies wear those costumes that really show off the jokes? Yeah, pushed up the titties. Yeah. I assume. I didn't actually.

You, I tell you what. Some of those Renfest ladies, it's like, man, you wait all year. Oh, yeah. To mash them titties up. Put the outfit on. Yes. So in the underworld, Patrick House was given the role of Path the Assassin. I'm sorry. Path the Assassin.

I like Path the assassin. I'm sorry. Path the assassin. I like Path the assassin. And he was tasked with assassinating the villain, which is OG. Starting to crack the code here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So outside of the game, or was it part of the game? Who knows? Clara started talking to Patrick about

how terrible her dad was and how she really wished he would die and how maybe you could kill him for me. Patrick testified that at first he thought that this was just part of the game. Right. But as time went by, it became very clear to him that this was no longer part of the game. And that Claire was asking him more and more frequently to find a way for her dad to die. She even was like sending him recipes for like herbal poisons and was like, cool, if you could do it this way, that'd be great. And to back up why she needed him to die, she showed him journal entries where she talked about how her dad was abusing her and trying to poison her. And then she also talked about how much money she would inherit if her dad were to die. She stood to gain about $400,000 in inheritance.

And she was like, what, like 19 years old? So that seemed like just an incredible fortune to her you can buy a lot of those renfest dresses that's right she told him he testified that she told him her only wish was that it was not able to be traced back to her and that it needed to look as natural as possible. It would be her preference if he would poison him. But, you know, dealer's choice. Oh, my God. And then he talked about this one specific incident where the two couples went out to Ruby Tuesdays. Oh, my.

In Leesburg, Virginia, September of 2001. And Clara ordered a steak. She ordered it rare. Ruby Tuesdays, known for their steaks. She ordered it rare and sent it back three times. Oh, my God. Okay, I love how I'm getting upset about that. Sorry.

Each time she sent it back saying it tasted off. There was something wrong with it. And it's a steak from Ruby Tuesday. And the third time she sent it back, she confided with her table mates that her dad must have contacted the cook at Ruby Tuesday. I'm sorry. Infiltrated the restaurant and asked him to poison her food. And then at that point, Patrick testified that Claire turned to him and said, when are you going to do it? When are you going to kill him? And at that point, Patrick realized that this was no longer part of the game.

And he was like, yeah, I don't think I'm going to see you anymore. And he just like distanced himself from Clara. Well, as you would. Yeah. You're trying to tell me your dad came into the Ruby Tuesdays. No, he didn't even come there. He just contacted the cook and was like, hey, bud, can you poison my daughter's steak, please? That doesn't even make sense, Brandi.

No. If you're going to ask someone to poison someone's steak, you've got to bring the poison yourself. You can't be like, hey, next to the salt and pepper, I'm sure you've got a bottle of poison. Yeah. Please pour that on my daughter's steak. Right. You know, you'll recognize it because it's the big brown bottle with the skull and crossbones on it and the cork on top. I don't know why you keep it right next to the salt and pepper.

Seems like you're asking for trouble. Yeah. So he testifies to this on the stand and the defense is like, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. This looks terrible. Yeah. So they do what they can to try and discredit Patrick as much as they can. discredit Patrick as much as they can. And on cross-examination, they got him to admit that he believed in fire-breathing dragons and

magical spells and that he believed that if he truly believed in something with his whole being, it would become real. Here's the thing about the way you're saying that. It's clear you are so judgy and so against this, but the thing is, there's

a dragon right behind you right now. So the defense's goal is to make it look like there's this big weirdo weirdo on the stands. Well, sounds like, yes. Yeah. But isn't it possible that he's... That both things are true?

I mean, wouldn't you have to be kind of weird to be with this Clara lady who's... I think so. Sending back the sticks at Ruby Tuesdays? Mm-hmm. So the prosecution's other star witness was Katie English. She actually took Katie. I think I said English. It's English.

She actually took a deal. She agreed to testify for the prosecution if they only charged her with like being an accessory after the fact. And as part of the deal, she only got like sentenced to a year in prison. So she testified about the whole thing. She's like she didn't get capital murder. Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely she is.

Yeah. So she testified about how Clara talked all the time about how she wished her father was dead and how she was just like a huge disappointment to him and she'd never be the person that he wanted her to be and she didn't have any interest in being that person and how she also talked about all the time how much money she would stand to inherit if he died she talked about all the things that they did that night how they'd gone to the house they knew what kyle was going to do and that clara had asked him to do it

clara's sister michelle also testified for the prosecution. And she testified that she never saw any kind of behavior, anything that would lead her to believe that her father was abusing Clara or trying to poison her. And he'd never abused her or tried to poison her. When did they call in the Ruby Tuesday cook? That's a good question, yeah. Yeah, how much was he paying you to poison her? She also testified that on Thanksgiving Day, Kyle Holbert had come to the house as, like, Clara's guest. He came in.

Clara introduced him to her dad. He'd stayed only about 20 minutes. He did like a weird walk around the property and he showed off this sword that he brought with him. Oh God. Can you imagine? Yeah. And that he left after being there for only like 20 minutes and looking back now she thought it

was some kind of weird like reconnaissance mission. Yeah. Yeah. Sure at the time it was really sad to see him go oh hey where's your weird friend with his cool sword yeah the defense when it was their turn to present their case they really latched on to the thing that like claire was just this girl who lived in this fantasy world. And it wasn't her fault that Kyle had taken what she had deemed to be fantasy and he took it as reality, that she was really requesting this. She really wanted her father dead. And that was about Kyle's diagnosis

with schizophrenia and kind of his past and how those things really show that it was very possible that he could have misinterpreted what Clara had said and what she wanted and not been able to tell

the difference between fantasy and reality. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. tell the difference between fantasy and reality. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So as like a last ditch effort, the defense also presented evidence of child pornography that they say was found on Bob Schwartz's computer. Oh, really? Mm-hmm. So, specifically, there was a couple of pictures of a preteen girl in some state of undress with her hair in pigtails.

And on the day they presented this evidence, Clara wore her hair in pigtails to court. to court. The prosecution pointed out that these photographs were, in fact, found on a computer in Bob Swartz's house, but that they'd been downloaded just a week before the murder and that there was no evidence that there'd been any other files at any time on the computer. Okay. Yeah. So it seems

my belief is that this was planted evidence to make Rob Swartz look like... How old was this guy? He all of a sudden became a pedophile? Yeah. No. No. The. No. The trial lasted for about a week, and the jury deliberated for about four hours before they convicted Clara of first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder. The jurors recommended a sentence of 48 years in prison.

At sentencing, the defense tried to mitigate, present mitigating factors that she was dealing with undiagnosed hyperthyroidism. This is real. I once knew someone with that. She's a psycho. Yeah. Yeah. They had her uncle like get on the stand and be like,

yeah, you know what? She used to be totally normal. Now she's a super freak and it's because she has hyperthyroidism. Yep. Yeah. And they asked the judge

to sentence her to 30 years for murder but to not do the extra 18 for the conspiracy because that was all part of the hyperthyroidism. Okay. So pausing briefly. You have a hyperthyroidism. Yes. Anyway.

Yes. So it does cause anxiety. It causes anxiety. Yes. Anyway. Yes. So it does cause anxiety. It causes anxiety. Yes. Yes. Anxiety and paranoia can be symptoms of hyperthyroidism. Absolutely. But the other symptom that people don't talk about a lot is the symptom where it causes you to get a friend and have them bring a sword to your parents' house and kill them.

Yes. Yeah. I just skated by. Just, yeah, barely missed that one. and have them bring a sword to your parents' house and kill them. Yes. Yeah. I just skated by. Just, yeah, barely missed that one. Mm-hmm. You've been tempted. I have been tempted.

To counter that argument or to give, you know, I don't know. Her siblings delivered victim impact statements saying that like no sentence would be enough. It was hard enough to deal with the loss of their father after already losing their mother. But the fact that they lost their father at the hands of their sister. Oh God. Yeah. Was just horrible. Yeah.

Yeah. The judge decided to sentence Clara Schwartz to the recommended 48 years in prison, of which she has to serve 85% before becoming eligible for parole. She would become eligible when she's 61 years old. Wow. God, that's so sad.

Yeah. Kyle Holbert ended up pleading guilty just before his trial was about to begin. And he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And Michael Full pled guilty to second degree murder and was sentenced to 18 years in prison for his role. Yeah. So I believe the reason that they didn't offer him the same deal that they offered Katie was like... I can tell you why. Why?

The first to squeal gets the deal. Yes! I mean, kind of, yeah. But also, like, Mike told some people that night at the mall what they were going to do. Oh, shit. And so the fact that he did that and then like still went through with it and everything, they weren't willing to give him the same deal that they gave Katie. Clara has appealed her sentence, but to this point, all of those appeals have been denied

and she remains in prison. Okay. I want to look her up. Yes. Clara Schwartz. S-C-H-W-A-R-T-Z. Ooh, boy. Yeah, they're a ragtag group.

I didn't include this, but Kyle made a weird comment about how he got some blood in his mouth when he killed Robert Schwartz and now he's a vampire. Okay, okay, buddy. So, interesting side note. Okay, Kyle was very into his fantasy role in the underworld of being an assassin. He had this old sword that he did assassin moves with

all the time. And, you know, he lived with that friend and that friend's dad. Like, they had just, like, taken him in because they felt sorry for him. He had no one. Yeah. And so one day he's, like, practicing his assassin moves with his sword. And the friend's dad is like, hey, let me see your sword. And, like, the friend's dad was very into knives and stuff and familiar with whatever.

And he looked at it and he's like, you've got no edge on this. And he's like, yeah, I know. So it was a completely dull sword. No edge at all. And he's like, let me sharpen it for you. Oh, no. And so he did like just like this driving nice to this guy. Oh, gosh.

And that's the sword he used to murder Robert Schwartz. Oh. gosh. And that's the sword he used to murder Robert Schwartz. Oh. Yeah. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Aren't you glad I added that a little bit in there? I am glad. I don't know how to feel about that.

I know. So they interview him on the Snapped episode, and he's like, you know, kind of like, I had no idea. Like, I thought this guy was just like. But you knew you had a mentally unstable. That's true. Kid in your home. Yeah. And you thought, you know what this kid needs?

A sword. A sharp sword. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that that you're welcome whoo doggies you know what I think

we should do right now take some questions from our discord start a fantasy role playing game oh my god no no

no no let's get into the discord which this is where all our patrons are hanging out at the five dollar level on patreon's get into the Discord. Yeah. This is where all our patrons are hanging out. At the $5 level on Patreon, you get into our Discord. You get to listen to a bunch of our bonus episodes.

At the $7 level, you get all that plus a monthly Zoom hangout call with us. We try to keep those fun. And you get a sticker. You get what? I think they're super lame. I think they're super fun. And you get a sticker. You get what? I think they're super lame. I think they're super fun. Well, I'm just saying, you know, we keep it spicy.

We have a theme usually. We have a thing. We don't just hop on like, hi. You know, we talked about what we're going to do for the next one. What? Should we tease it? Tease it. Tease it, baby. We're going to try to make Mandelflard. I'm sure we'll do great. I'm not that confident.

Also at that level, you get inducted onto the end of this very podcast. And at the $10 level on Patreon, you get all that plus ad-free episodes a day early and you get 10% off on on merch what more could you want

probably other things but we can't help you that's right that's all we got oh oh okay jacques arce wants to know what's your holy grail makeup or skincare product i've talked about mine before. It's my eyeliner. I can't live without it. It's the best eyeliner I've ever found in my life. It's Stila Stay All Day Waterproof Liquid Eyeliner. It's like a felt tip pen, goes on, just glides right on.

And, like, I have the wateriest eyes on the planet, and it stays in place literally all day. Okay. Mine is, I have been using the same blush for like 15 years now. What is it? It's Benetint in like a, it looks like a thing of nail polish. Yeah. Like it's a liquid. Yeah.

It's super weird. Anytime people see me use it, it's like, huh? Yeah. But it's just a natural flush. I love it. A very pretty roommate of mine used it in college. And ever since then, I have not strayed. I'm going to use that too.

I'm just like the pretty roommate. Inner Grace Kelly says, you talked about pie. What's your favorite one? And what's your least favorite? Oh, don't make me... Oh, well, actually, strawberry rhubarb. Rhubarb! I was going to say that's my least favorite, too. Yeah. Okay. London, this

is kind of a tangent, but whatever. Well, no, not allowed. London eats yogurt. That's like her favorite food right now. And so we get her these Noosa yogurts at Costco. Yeah. And they're like, it's like there's a really good thick yogurt and then it has like a fruit mix in. And one of like, I love the blueberry and the lemon one.

I steal those from her. There's a strawberry rhubarb one. Oh, no. It's just stringy in there. There's just a rhubarb. Does she like it? She loves it. Oh, good.

I'm glad somebody does. Fucking weirdo. Yeah. Strawberry rhubarb, least favorite pie. Yeah. Favorite pie? I don't know. There's too many.

I love pie. This is making me think of last week when we went out for pie. I know. I had the coconut cream. I had the lemon meringue. We were both very happy. Yes. Karen liked the meme, says deodorant before or after putting a shirt on.

I always do it after. And I go in through the collar. Oh. What do you do? I do it, like, right after I towel off. Oh. Oh. Oh.

Well, I don't walk around naked, like, ever, so. Do you think you're going to get arrested? I'm a never nude. I mean, I guess I'm not really naked. Well, I'm naked for a while and then I put on a robe, you know. Yeah. It's my house. Yeah.

And give the people what they want. See, I don't like to put it on before I put my shirt on because I wear a lot of black. And then you end up with, you know, white deodorant on your black shirt. Yeah, I got you. Yeah. You know how you fix that? Don't wear as much black? No.

Oh. You can rub the fabric against that area, and it takes it away. Is that for real? That's for real. That really works? That really works. Huh. Use the fabric itself against that area.

Bada bing, bada boom. Hmm. All right. Don't look so skeptical. I'm very skeptical. You know what I'm thinking? Hmm. If that really worked, I would have heard about that before just now.

Yeah. Whoa. Hmm. Hmm. What a dick. I know so much that I would already know about that if that were true. I mean, that's probably fair, but honestly, it works. No, it's not.

It works. Teacher in a pandemic asks, Costco toilet paper. Yay or nay? Oh, I know how you feel. I do. Oh, Costco toilet paper. Yay or nay. Oh, I know how you feel. I do. I am. OK, I had to eat my words about this because you made a claim very early in this podcast that I was a toilet paper snob.

You are. And I was like, no, I'm not. And then during the pandemic, you just had to buy whatever toilet paper was out there. And so we ended up with a giant pack of Costco toilet paper. How'd it feel? I hated it. On your precious little balloon knot. I hated it. I was like, Kristen was fucking right.

I am a toilet paper snob. Yeah. For the record, I don't necessarily love that toilet paper, but I'm so cheap, and I'm kind of like, you know. Just wiping my poo with this. My ass can take it. That's what I say to whoever's next to me at Costco when I pick that up. The Ginger Snap asks, raisins and trail mix. Yes or no?

It's fine. But I'm not really a trail mix person. Really? Really. Huh. huh huh you never would have suspected what i like trail mix and like i yeah i don't mind the raisins in there it's wonderful i wouldn't ever eat a raisin just like on its own i'm never gonna open a box of raisins and be like look at this whole treat no but in in a handful of trail mix, yeah, you just throw that pup right back. Barely even notice it.

Yeah. Okay. I like, yeah, the little hint of sweetness in there. Okay. I also like a raisin and an oatmeal raisin cookie. Nobody asked, but I'm here to tell you. How about a raisin in a Rice Krispie treat? No, fuck no. That was the worst. That whole Rice Krispie treat tasted like raisins.

That was terrible. Everyone, a local restaurant did us dirty one time. Jenna T. asks, Brandy, as a fellow Gilmore Girls lover, what is the worst season and why is it season seven? It's absolutely season seven. Worst fucking season ever. I'm sorry, April, what? Why did they need to do that? And of course Luke would have fucking told Lorelai about it. He would never would have kept that a secret.

It's so dumb. Wow. Pretty fired up now. Bees fly 22. Wants to know, Kristen, what fall landscaping are you putting on Norm's backyard grave? Oh my God. Okay. I've got a Norm story from this week.

So we'll see if he makes me cut this. So we've got these spider webs on the outside of the house. I mean, it's to the point where I'm like, this looks like spooky Halloween decorations. Yeah. And so Norm was like, you know, maybe we should consider, like, calling a company and having them spray. Yeah. Because, you know, this spider problem is out of control. And I was know, because, you know, this spider problem is out of control.

And I was like, yeah, you know, you're right. It is kind of ridiculous. I'm sorry. You look so disgusting. I'm concerned. I've been coming to the spider house not even knowing it. And Norm goes, yeah, these spiders are like all up in my grill. And I was kind of like, no one says that.

No, he literally meant in his grill. He literally meant they are in his grill. But for a split second I was like oh my god. No one says that. It's 2021 Norm. Anna she her wants to know Brandy did you date anyone other than David while you were single? Listen, Anna, I had plans.

Big plans. Give me a break. Give me a break. Yeah, tell us about all the guys you dated. I declared to Christian. I shouldn't say this. I say this sure I declared to you that I was gonna go through a whole phase

and you rolled your eyes at me and you're like okay and then I met David like two days later and you've been hoeing it up with the same guy ever since. So the answer is no. Yeah, Brandi really went wild, everybody.

She was just like sitting at her house not meeting people. You know, the really funny thing is that David did exactly the same thing. What do you mean? Like, David went through a divorce. He had, like, been married for a million years and then, like, had also just gotten on Tinder when we met. Like, we were single for, like, the exact same amount of time and dated no one else. The thing is, though, David really was a hoe. His profile picture was just of his butthole. His profile picture was just of his butthole.

Sorry, we can cut that. You think I would have swiped right on just a picture of someone's butthole? What's this? You know I'm in a hoe face. I would have been horrified by that. No face. I was horrified by that. Kristen, not Kristen, says, which one of you would handle being in prison better? Oh, I don't know.

I think it'd be me. It probably would be. I don't think I'm cut out for that. Well, neither am I! I don't think either one of us are cut out for it, but I think... Well, I'd fucking smile at the wrong person. Yeah, I... I don't think either of us would do real well. No, neither of us would do very well at all.

No. Well, you have seen more of the world than I have. We both were raised Jetsy County princesses. It'd be a rough time. It sure would be. Oh. What? Sticky Situation asks, would you rather find out you were married to a serial killer or a pedophile?

Oh, God. Serial killer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Oh. Ew. Oh.

I like how we kind of didn't answer the previous question, but we both definitely answered this one. Like, oh, we both be bad. Yeah. We both definitely answered this one. Like, oh, we both be bad. Yeah. Coconuts wants to know, Brandy, do you remember your first terrible customer? Oh, gosh.

Okay, I have a memory of being a brand new stylist and having, it was a male customer a haircut and I don't even remember what happened but I remember going in the back and crying. And then my manager came back and was like you didn't do anything wrong. That guy was just a dick. I don't even remember specifically like what he was upset about. Yeah. But I remember. He was just a jerk. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh I remember. He was just a jerk. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. This sounds amazing. This is not a question, but Mouthful of Hand says, Just need to tell you that I had one of the best times of my life recently while I had an edible and took a bath while listening to your podcast. It was like I was 11 from Stranger Things floating in the sensory deprivation chamber. And I was there in the room with you as you recorded the podcast.

I laughed my ass off. That sounds wonderful. It does. Did I tell you? This was a couple weeks ago. I took an edible and then I was just like watching YouTube. And it's one of my like YouTubers that I've watched for a million years.

And she's like a beauty lady, whatever. And I'm watching this and I'd taken like it was a very low dose. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, my gosh, she's high in this. And I was like, I cannot believe that she's high. And I just like it took me so long for us to really see. Like, no, she's not high. I'm fucking high. But it made me think of times when sometimes people have been like, were you high in this episode?

And now I fully appreciate it. It's like, okay, you were high listening. I totally get it now. I really thought I was on to her. I was like, Fleur De Force, you are high right now. She's like this very classy British YouTuber who would absolutely never be high on YouTube. Oh my gosh, that's hilarious.

Should we wrap it up there and do some Supreme Court inductions? I think we should. All right, we are continuing to read your names and favorite cookies for your induction. Aika Pesqual. Lengua de gato. That's cat tongue.

It says it's Filipino butter cookies. Linguatigato. Linguatigato means tongue of cat. All right, I'll try it. Connie Brown. Red velvet white chocolate chip cookies. Amanda Faruqui. Oreos.

Cassie Booth. White chocolate cherry sugar cookies. Lulu Mae Tregoni. Pecan nut cups. What's a pecan nut cup? I don't know. That sounds like a manhood match. I know.

I'm sorry. So immature. Megan Williams. Florentines Dee Dee Adams Ugly Cookies A basic cookie dough base, but we add whatever we have left in the cupboard. Someone else does that, and they called it something else.

I can't remember what they called it. They call it Cat Tongue. Britt Tucker Oatmeal Cookie with Cranberries I just love a nice, healthy cookie. Wow. Sorry, Brit. I mean, to shame your cookie choice.

This is why you do horribly in prison. You insult someone. That's exactly right. Lauren. Raspberry jam drops. Nothing more I love in my cookies than jam. That's good. Is it?

Cat Coliba. Thin Mints. Katie's good. What is it? Cat Coliba. Thin Mints. Katie Savy. Reese's Pieces Peanut Butter Cookies. There you go. I'm looking down for that. Willikita Ritter. Chocolate Dipped Stroopwafels.

Lauren Sicoli. Warm Chewy Oatmeal Raisin Cookies. Brittany Sissel. Chocolate Chop. Katie Bogue. Frozen Girl Scout Lemonades paired with a cold glass of Chardonnay. Oh, fancy. Chelsea Miller. White Chocolate Macadamia. Courtney.

Any type of cookie without raisins because they are wannabe chocolate chips. Brandi, did you write this? I did not. Katrina Helly. The Chalk Blocker. Brandi, did you write this? I did not. Katrina Helley. The Chalk Blocker. She says, it's a chocolate cookie with peanut butter chips and semi-sweet chocolate chunks.

From Cookie McCakeface, my friend's cookie truck in Portland, Oregon. Oh! I want to go to Cookie McCakeface! Claire Bear. Russian Tea Cakes. cake face. Claire Bear. Russian tea cakes. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it

so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. On Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week

when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from The Case of the Vanishing Blonde by Mark Bowden for Vanity Fair, and an episode of 2020 titled The Woman in the Suitcase. Oh yeah, that would have given it away. You're right. All right. I got my info from an episode of Snapped An article for the Crime Library by Katherine Ramsland An article for the Fairfax Times

And Murderpedia.org For a full list of our sources Visit lgtcpodcast.com Any errors are of course ours But please don't take our word for it Go, read, there's stuff Buh-buh