Let's Go To Court! - 188: The Mysterious Death of Greg Fleniken & a Love Triangle

Episode Date: September 22, 2021

When Detective Scott Apple entered room 348 of the MCM Elegante Hotel, he didn’t think he had a mystery on his hands. A man named Greg Fleniken lay dead on the floor. The hotel room showed no signs of a struggle. Greg’s wallet contained more than $1,000. His body showed no obvious signs of trauma. Clearly, he hadn’t been the victim of a robbery or foul play. It seemed a lifetime of smoking had caught up with him. But an autopsy revealed otherwise. Then Brandi tells us about a love triangle. Rachel Wade and Sarah Ludemann were in love with the same guy -- Josh Camacho. But rather than turn their anger toward the guy who was playing them both, Rachel and Sarah battled one another. Sarah showed up at Rachel’s work to harass her. They left each other nasty voicemails. Then, on the evening of April 14, 2009, Rachel headed over to an ex-boyfriend’s house. But before she left, she tucked a knife into her purse.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Body in Room 348” by Mark Bowden for Vanity Fair “I know what you did,” episode of 20/20 “Trial nixed in civil suit over notorious death at MCM Elegante Hotel,” by David Yates for the Southeast Texas Record “Wife of man found dead at MCM Elegante proceeds with lawsuit,” by Sarah Moore for the Beaumont Enterprise “Update: Lance Mueller gets 10 year prison sentence for shooting,” The Chippewa Herald In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “One teen boy, two teen girls and homicide” by Lane DeGregory, Tampa Bay Times “Rachel Wade Sentenced: Teenage Love Triangle Murderer Gets 27 Years for Death of Sarah Ludemann” by Kevin Hayes, CBS News “Teen love triangle: Street fight over boyfriend ends in death” True Crime Daily “Rachel Wade” episode Snapped “Woman found guilty in death of love rival” by Mark Douglas, The Tampa Tribune “Rachel Wade” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the bizarre death of Greg Flanagan.

And I'll be talking about a teenage love triangle. Nope, inappropriate. What do you mean? You're not allowed to tell that. It just sounds inappropriate. It's not allowed. Thank you very much for trying, though. All right, I guess I'll be talking about nothing. Oh, you know what we should do right now?

What? Guess what? Here. I am so excited that I remembered to do this. I can't believe I actually remembered. You know, this is going to be coming out in a week. Okay. I know what you're going to do.

Hey, everybody. Hey, guess what? If you're listening to this bright and early Wednesday morning on the day this comes out, you should join our Patreon right this minute to get in so you can join us on the Zoom call tonight. Yes. At the $7 level, you get all kinds of cool shit, including 26 bonus episodes for your listening pleasure. Pleasure. Pleasure. 26 bonus episodes for your listening pleasure.

Pleasure. But yeah, also tonight, if you're listening to this on the day it comes out, we're going to do a Zoom call where we make mandelflar. That's right. And if that doesn't make you want to join in, I don't know what will.

Yeah. Oh, by the way, I should mention, because I heard through the grapevine like someone was like, a little nervous. You don't know what will. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, by the way, I should mention, because I heard through the grapevine, like someone was like, a little nervous. You don't have to talk on these things. No, we mute everybody. Yeah. And like, there's a chat feature. Yeah.

There's no rules. You can just sit back and take it all in. No one has to even know you're there if you don't want them to. There are rules. Well, no masturbating. Got a strict rule. Don't jeffrey tube in this so there are some rules but you know like if you're if you're like i don't know what to say you don't have to say you don't have to say anything you don't have to say anything at all is that creepy yeah i didn't like that at all. Nope. I'm so excited that

I get to go first this episode. Oh, you are? Yeah, because I've got a really good case. Oh, you're not your usual shit, huh? I really found a good one this week. Well, I didn't find it actually, someone pointed it out to me. Anyway, it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. I already saw that. It's by

your guy. Damn it, Brandi. This is why I never fill out the intro page. Okay, anyway. Well, everyone else, you don't know who my guy is. Is it Norman? No, it's not. It's a man who wrote for Vanity Fair. All right.

So you've got a bizarre death you're going to tell us about, huh? You know, I always get excited when I'm doing a case and I'm like, I think Brandi's going to like this. I'm really loving your hair today. I am too. It's like a little bit different than usual. Thank you. It looks great.

It really does look great. It does. I'm sorry. Everyone, this is not an ad. It's not. It's not an ad at all. Okay, I'm just going to tell them what I'm doing. Yeah, tell the people.

Everyone, I bought this like $50 Revlon tool that looks like a big brown brush that's secretly like a blow dryer all in one. And I'm using oils in my hair. You did like a straighter thing this time and then just like a under at the end. It looks so good. Here's the thing. And this occurred to me as I was doing my hair this morning. It would be embarrassing if anyone was watching me do it because I was like smiling at myself in the mirror and just like really taking my time.

Look how cute that was. Like, oh my God, who's that sexy thing in the mirror and just really taking my time. Oh my god! Who's that sexy thing in the mirror? Oh, it's me! Oh, I forgot! It's me! That tool has changed my life. It's the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Great! That includes meeting you, getting married to Norm. Yes! Thank you, Revlon. Did I mention it's only 50 bucks? Yeah. Okay. I was telling Kyla about it the other day.

Yeah. And she was like, my God, do you have a promo code? She was like, ridiculous. I just think it's a really great thing. It's really impacted your life. And if you all knew how hot I looked right now, you would go buy one. It's a true story. She looks very hot.

Normally hideous. Today, super hot. Oh, my God. Thank you so much for noticing my hair. I just, like, I can't get over how great it looks today. It looks really great. Okay, anyway. All right, all right. It looks really great. Okay, anyway. All right, all right.

You also look great. We both have clean hair today. Yeah, that's right. It just never happens. You know what? That's what it really is. We both have our hair down. Yes.

Looking real good. It's a wash day. Yeah, it's a wash day. And man. The way my hair looks on wash days, I'm like, maybe I should wash this shit more often. But I think it looks that good on wash day because you don't wash it more often. All right. I won't.

I'll be stinky. Fine. No, don't be stinky. Anyway, moving on. Thank you to Allison Long, who suggested this case via the private messaging system on Patreon. It's not really a system, but you know. I think they just sent us a message on Patreon. It made it sound like beep boop beep boop beep.

She like had her eye worse scanned before she could send the message. And hugest of shout outs to Mark Bowden, who wrote a fantastic piece about this case for Vanity Fair. That's your guy. He's my boy didn't. It's titled The Body in Room 348. Well, great. Spoiler. What do you mean?

We know right off the bat that there's a body. Oh, are you upset, Brandy? Do you not like a murder? No, I'm very sad. Yeah, give me a break. So this comes almost entirely from his fantastic reporting. Loved it. Also, thank you to an episode of 2020 titled, I Know What You Did.

Oh. Last summer? No. Starring. I almost wrote down, I know what you did last summer, because that's just like it auto-fills in my head. No. They cut it short. Okay.

I know what you did. Excellent. All right. Here we go. Here we go. I'm ready. I'm very intrigued. Really?

Really? Because I just spoiled the whole thing for you. Yeah, because there's a fucking body in room 348. Yeah, okay. Well, that's all you need to know. The end. Greg Flanagan was a man who stuck to his routine. He lived in Lafayette, Louisiana.

Excellent. But he worked in Beaumont, Texas. And every Monday morning, he hopped in his pickup truck and he drove two hours to Beaumont. You know, there is something about a truck. In a farmer's field. No trespass sign. Time to kill. Nobody's going to get hurt.

So what's the big deal? Something about a truck. How dare you? You know I'm always just a few words away from a country song and a bad country song. A bad country song. I'm sorry, everyone. That was my Christmas shoes. But I didn't really sing it now.

I've got the itch to sing it. Don't make me sing! Don't make me sing! Something about a truck. So Greg worked all day, and in the evenings, he'd retire to the MCM Elegante Hotel. Was it, in fact, Elegante? Okay, here's the thing. It had a light-up sign that I think looks like it'd be more appropriate for, like, a

moderately-priced Italian restaurant. And, okay, best part, how Mark did not include this in his article, I do not know. But thank goodness the good folks at 20-20 did. Just real casual, right at the entrance to this hotel is a massive stone tablet in excess of six feet tall. I don't know the exact dimensions. And engraved onto this tablet, what do you think we got? Ten commandments. You betcha.

Can you imagine? You're going to a hotel and there's a massive ten commandments. Oh my gosh. And it brings me no pleasure to tell you this, but whoever wrote the script for this episode of 2020 was doing too damn much. Because for this episode, you know, they showed a shot of the massive tablet and then they zoomed in on the commandment, thou shall not kill. And in the narration, they pointed out that in this story someone broke that command match.

Even though the commandment was right there outside the hotel. The reminder was there at the door. This must have been kind of an older episode of 2020 because I don't normally think of them as tacky bitches. But this episode also included the line that he checked into the hotel but never checked out.

Oh. Which I don't like that shit. Yeah. You know what I was about to say? I was like, I think it's disrespectful. And then I realized, like, how many dumb jokes do I make that people would probably argue or disagree? This whole podcast is disrespectful.

So maybe let's cough a little bit. And why did I just call 2020 a bunch of tacky bitches? Maybe that was disrespectful to call someone a tacky bitch. No. No. No, not when I do it. No. When I do it, it's fine.

That's right. Other people, big problem. In other words this episode of 2020 was about as subtle as our eye makeup eyeliner every damn day that's right anyway so the MCM Elegante Hotel was where Greg's company always rented a room for him. And it's my understanding that he almost always had the same room, room 348. And Greg had a job as a landman. What happened to your throat? It was like a bubble in my throat.

You okay there? It's like bubbles bubble in my throat. You okay there? It sounded like bubbles coming to the top of a fish tank. It did. Are you really a fish tank? This whole time I've been a fish tank. We open up your brain and it's just a fish working some levers. I'm picturing the angry goldfish from Dr. Seuss. Oh, yeah.

Cat in the Hat. Yeah. That's who's running your brain. Yeah, that is who's running my brain. So anyway. Because he's also just like anxious all the fucking time. Yes. He's like, what are you doing?

Somebody's going to get hurt. Somebody's going to get broken. It's me. You are the fish. Mom's going to be home any minute. How does that feel now that you are the mom? Yeah, it's tough. Yeah, because you're going to be home any minute and you're going to be mad about something.

You're going to be mad about something. So Greg had a job as a land man, which I didn't have to look up because I already knew that a land man is the public facing side of an oil, gas, mineral or other energy sources exploration and production team who interacts and negotiates directly with landowners to acquire leases for the exploration and development of minerals or other energy sources. Of course, everybody already knew that. We already knew. And, you know, there's a reason that that definition just rolled off my tongue, Brandy. It's because I knew what it meant to be a landman. I didn't have to look it up on the American Association of Professional Landmen's website. Is that not the longest definition?

It is a very long definition. They didn't even break that up with a semicolon or anything. By the way, I want to just let you know that I never for one second thought that landman was the name of a really lame superhero to just stop asking.

I thought it was maybe like half man, half mountain. Did you ever watch It's Always Sunny? No. No, not really. Oh, darn. Great talk. Yeah! Well, someone's

going to get this. When they do this musical where they're like, Nightman, oh, and all I can think of is Landman, oh. Anyway, okay, sorry, that was lame. Greg was a landman, and he co-owned OGM Land Company with his brother. And on Wednesday, September 15th, 2010, Greg found himself in his

usual routine. He got off work, headed back to the hotel. That's today. Shut up! Is that today? Weird! Spooky! You know I love that shit! You do love that shit. It's even a

Wednesday! It is even a Wednesday. And it's 2010. No. But, wow, that's weird. That is weird. Okay. Okay. Leave it to me to work on this thing and never catch it.

Never catch it. So, you know, he gets off work. He goes back to the hotel. He entered room 348, took off his boots, changed out of his jeans, and put on a pair of pajama bottoms. And then he cranked up the AC. Made himself comfortable. He set a hand towel on top of the bedspread and put the TV remote on it. Don't make a face.

He's not going to do anything weird. Don't make a face. Okay. You perv. Should we tell everyone what Norm almost did? Go right ahead. Everyone, Norm is currently working on a video. Where he goes in.

It's a really good video. It's about how the Mario characters got their names. And, you know, I do editing for him. So he sent me this script and he referred to Yoshi as Mario's faithful mount. And I was like, oh, my God. It's a family show. It never occurred to him that that sounds filthy dirty. It's completely filthy.

I had no idea that's what Mario was doing to Yoshi all this time. They were loyal to one another. It's an important thing. Do you want to work that into your wedding vows? I take thee, Brandy, as my faithful mount. My faithful mount! That's terrible.

Anyway, don't worry, everyone. He changed it. So, Greg put a hand towel on top of the bedspread, and I'll thank you not to make a weird look or anything. Totally normal thing, absolutely. Because he put his remote on it. Hold on. You're going to find out why this is normal.

If you could just keep your face in check. He put the remote on it. He put his Blackberry on it because it's 2010. He put the ashtray and a pack of cigarettes and a lighter. Yeah. Okay. Do you get it? Yeah.

All right. You want to apologize for your face? No. That particular night, he had a Reese's Crispy Crunchy Bar. Is that a thing? Was that like a 2010 flash in the pan? Okay. So he had a Reese's Crispy Crunchy Bar, which does sound good.

I'd eat it. Yeah. I don't even know what that is. Well, you get the idea. I mean, it's not going to be kale, so, you know. Yeah, I'm here for it. Uh-huh. And he ordered Iron Man 2 on pay-per-view.

So he sat. Odd porn choice. Okay. Nope, I won't say anything. I'm just going to keep going. But I have thought multiple times gosh who would blame a person

they're alone in a hotel exactly but then something horrible happens to you and all of a sudden what you're watching becomes part of every article

yeah good thing he was watching Iron Man 2 yeah anyway it's a cautionary tale for us all I guess Every article. Yeah. Good thing he was watching Iron Man 2. Yeah. Anyway, it's a cautionary tale for us all, I guess. So he sat watching it, drinking some root beer, smoking a cigarette, and eating his candy bar. This was totally normal for Greg.

Do you think it's got peanuts and Rice Krispies in it? Absolutely not. No. Reese's Crispy Crunchy Bar? No. Yeah. There's no peanuts in that. Peanuts and Rice Krispies absolutely not no reese's crispy crunchy bar no yeah there's no peanuts in that that's and rice no no yeah you're you're full of shit no it's just like the the crunchies that's all look at a crispy crunchy i'm getting to the bottom of this please do this is the most pertinent mystery in this whole story. What's in the Reese's Crispy Crunchy Bar? It seems that there's some wafer in there.

Yeah. But it's nutless. Okay. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Oh, boy. You ready? Yeah.

Milk chocolate. Reese's peanut butter. Okay. Crunchy peanut butter. Okay. Chopped peanuts. Oh's peanut butter. Crunchy peanut butter. Chopped peanuts. Oh, damn it. Damn it. Oh, she's so smug, everybody. Oh, look out. Look out. There's no stopping her now. So this was totally normal for Greg. He wasn't the type to go down to the hotel bar, and he didn't really go out much in Beaumont. Most of the time, once he got back to his hotel room, he stayed there all evening.

And the evening of September 15th was no exception. At some point, a little after 7, Greg's wife Susie emailed him, and she just said something about how she was using some software to file a tax extension. And he emailed her back and said, you're doing good, babe. The only thing that was a little out of the ordinary was that that evening he popped some popcorn in his hotel room microwave. And in doing so, he blew a fuse. microwave. And in doing so, he blew a fuse. And so Greg's room lost power, and so did room 349, and so did a few rooms underneath his. So Greg had to let the front desk know that he'd blown a fuse making popcorn, so they sent a maintenance guy to go suck the fuse.

that's the opposite of I did not get I pulled a total Kristen there I was like what the fuck does that mean you know some people talk about flipping breakers and all that stuff I was like, what the fuck does that mean? You know, some people talk about flipping breakers and all that stuff. No. No.

He just went straight to suck it up. Suck the fuse. Yeah. Okay, anyway. That might be the stupidest thing I've ever said on this podcast. So that was Greg's evening. He blew the fuse. The maintenance guy fixed it. I think it's blowing a fuse, right? Or is that just when you...

Yeah, yeah. Okay, we all get the idea. Maintenance guy fixed it. He watched Iron Man 2. Smoked a cigarette, ate a candy bar, drank root beer. The next morning, Susie was expecting a phone call from Greg. That was part of their routine. Every morning, he'd call her, and they'd talk for a little while.

But that morning, he didn't call. So she tried calling him, but he didn't answer. So she called his work. And they were like, yeah, he's not in yet. And two of his co-workers volunteered to go over to the hotel and check on Greg. Greg didn't come to the door when they knocked, so they had to get the hotel manager to open the door to room 348. And when they finally got in, they discovered Greg dead on the floor.

He was doubled over, sort of close to the door. A cigarette was cupped in his left hand and the crotch of his pajamas was wet and the room was very hot. So the hotel called the police and pretty soon Detective Scott Apple arrived on the scene and he quickly determined that this was not some big mystery detective scott looked around the room and saw that there'd been no forced entry no evidence of a struggle no blood heart attack right yeah nothing appeared to be missing from the room greg's wallet had quote a stack of 100100 bills in it. Oh, fuck. Excuse me.

Right? Hello, Greg. No. And like the 2020 episode said it was over $1,000. It was just sitting there on the bed. So obviously no one had robbed him. Detective Scott Apple talked to Greg's wife, Susie, and she was obviously shocked and grief-stricken, but there didn't seem to be anything fishy going on. It looked like Greg had died very suddenly from natural causes. And that sort of made sense. Greg had been a heavy smoker. He used to drink quite a bit, and he loved steak, which made me really nervous when they brought that up because I also love steak. Yes, you know, I also love candy bars.

You ever made popcorn before? Uh-oh, here we go. As Mark Bowden wrote in his article, quote, Greg never went to a doctor. He was a stubbornly independent man, suspicious of authority and unmoved by the modern passion for health and fitness. He did not exercise. He had chain-smoked his entire adult life and had the nagging cough to prove it. He neither drank nor ate to excess, but did both freely. It was easy to conclude that his choices had simply caught up with him.

So you get the idea. 55-year-old man died of natural causes, which seems like absurdly young to me. Yeah, pretty young, but it happens. Yeah, exactly. Not the weirdest thing in the world. So the detective was there, like, all right, nothing to see here. And Greg's body was taken to Dr. Tommy Brown for a postmortem. I think at a certain age, you've got to start going by Tom, right?

Brandy, let me read to you what I said. Oh, my gosh. Okay, I said, Dr. Tommy Brown was super well respected, despite the indisputable fact that at his age, he really should have been going by Tom. Oh, my God. This means we are super right. That's exactly what that means. Well, really?

Yeah. An old man named Tommy? Yeah. I'm supposed to listen to your... If Tommy tells me I have cancer, I'm going to be like, nice try, sweetie. I will be getting a second opinion. But if Dr. Thomas Brown tells you... Yeah, then oh no.

Yeah. That's pretty bad. Tommy Brown, like, okay. All right, buddy. And you've got a unicorn to go check on. Don't you? So according to our boy Mark, Tommy Brown also had the type of

hairstyle that gave off a mad scientist vibe. Oh, kind of puffy. We've all seen the mad scientist vibes. You don't see the vibe. You get the picture. We all get it. So the doctor began examining Greg's body and he made note of

a small abrasion on Greg's left cheek, likely from where his face had hit the floor when he collapsed. But then, oddly, he noticed that Greg's scrotum had a very deep, like, half-inch-long cut. The area was swollen, and he had bruises all along his groin and right hip. That seemed really strange. So he opened Greg's torso and he was stunned by what he saw. There was a hole in Greg's heart. Two of his ribs were broken. His intestines had been cut. Two of his ribs were broken. His intestines had been cut. Partially digested food spilled out of them.

There was a lot of blood. By Dr. Brown's estimation, either Greg Flanagan had been beaten to death or he'd been crushed to death. There was no way Greg had died from natural causes. Oh my gosh. Right? Yeah. But whatever had killed him, it had been quick. He figured the injury to Greg's scrotum had been a very hard kick,

and whatever had been done to his chest had probably killed him in like 30 seconds. That is a serious kick to the scrotum. Yeah. Yeah. So the doctor ruled Greg's death a homicide. And Detective Apple was like, I'm sorry, what? You think he was murdered or crushed to death? And the doctor said yes. And Detective Apple was like, how can I take you seriously? You're a grown murdered or crushed to death? And the doctor said yes.

And Detective Apple was like, how can I take you seriously? You're a grown man with the name Tommy. Which I think we can all understand. Yeah. And the doctor was like, how would you like it if I called you Detective Banana? And Detective Apple. And then he was like, orange, you glad I didn't say banana? Damn it, why didn't I think of that?

Comedy gold, my friend. But you know, Detective Apple got the point because he'd heard too many fruit jokes in his day, so you know, he got it. So the detective was like, okay, he tried to investigate the case, but it was very difficult because none of this made any

fucking sense. Yeah, there's no sign of a struggle, yet he's been beat to death. Mm-hmm. All right, I gotta get my thinking cap on here. That makes some real strong accusations! Everyone's an asshole! That's right, including

me! If Greg had been beaten or crushed, why wasn't there more evidence of that on his body? And secondly, how did this crime even occur? He couldn't have been beaten in the room. No one had heard anything and there was no evidence of a struggle. And there was nothing in the room that was heavy enough that it could have crushed him. of a struggle. And there was nothing in the room that was heavy enough that it could have crushed him.

And there was no evidence that he'd been in a car accident or anything on the way to the hotel. So the detective wondered if maybe somebody had killed Greg and then brought his body back to the hotel room and propped him, doubled over on the floor and put a cigarette in his hand. But that seemed unlikely yeah so nothing was adding up but someone had done this to greg so maybe it made more sense to start there detective apple talked to greg's wife suzy turns out she and greg had been married twice to each other mm-hmm mm- Mm-hmm. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

The wheels are turning. Brandi, what you got? I got nothing so far. Oh! Just get my listening ears up. Uh-huh. Taking it all in. Those cards you got there, they're pretty close.

Just a few. So it's actually a cute story. They got married when they were young when Susie was a singer in a rock band. Susie's obviously very cute, duh. But that didn't work out, and they got divorced, and years passed. And finally, Susie called up Greg, and you know what he said? I've been waiting for your call. Did he really?

Mm-hmm. And then they got married again. Oh, my God. That is a really cute story. Yeah, and they'd been married for 15 years. 15 years when, you know, something happened to him. It seemed like they were very much in love. So, you know, Susie wasn't a good suspect. And to complicate this mystery even further, Greg didn't appear to have any enemies.

He and his brother co-owned their landman company and everybody loved Greg. Plus, Greg didn't engage in high-risk activities like drugs or heavy drinking or trying to tell Brandy Egan the best way to eat a peanut buster parfait. He says, hear me out, you just put your spoon in your mouth. Wrong! Okay, okay. So the detective combed through Greg's phone records and it was all pretty mundane. Greg had made regular calls to his wife and calls to work.

There was absolutely nothing sketchy going on. The only thing that Detective Apple could really latch onto was that thing with the popcorn. Greg had blown a fuse in the hotel, and that same evening, he'd been killed. Were those two things linked?

Oh, Brandy's making faces. She doesn't like this theory, gang. She's more interested in the wife, although she's upset because she liked the love story with the wife. But mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. That's all accurate. The first person that the detective looked into was the man who had sucked that fuse. Going back there, huh? The hotel's maintenance man. Wasn't enough just to include it once, you had to include it twice.

That's right. Might be three times a lady. Who knows? As it turned out, he was a registered sex offender, which seems like the type of job that you wouldn't want a sex offender to have. But I digress. Just accessing rooms in a hotel? Yeah.

Doesn't seem great, huh? Yeah. No, I'm not a fan. Doesn't seem great, huh? Yeah. No, I'm not a fan. So Detective Apple wondered if the deep cut on Greg Scrotum was part of some very weird sexual assault. He thought maybe it was the result of, like, a very long screwdriver that had been shoved up there and wiggled around a bit.

Stop. Okay. It didn't seem. Sorry. That didn't seem to be the case. And I'll thank you to never mention that a bit. Stop. Okay. It didn't seem... I'm sorry. That didn't seem to be the case and I'll thank you to never mention that theory again. Yes! Isn't that not horrifying?

Yes! The hand gesture you did really tapped it off. Yeah, I'm sorry. Everyone, I did, like, shove something into the air and wiggle it a little. Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh. Beaten some eggs. Sorry. Detective Apple's other theory involved the people who'd been staying next door to Greg in room 349. As it turned out, they were a bunch of electricians staying at the hotel for a big job at an oil company. The guys had been there for quite a while and they knew how to party and by that I mean they would just sit in the hotel most evenings and drink

yeah so when I wrote this up last night I wrote they knew how to party and then as I was going over it this morning I was like you know they're just like men sitting in a hotel room drinking beer.

But to me it's like yeah that's a party. So maybe Greg blew a fuse with his popcorn and the electricians got mad and you know how men are.

One of them says hey wise guy make popcorn much? And Greg said shut it buddy I'm plenty smart. I know that the word sentinel means Florida.

And then they got into a big fight and maybe maybe Greg stumbled back to his room, badly beaten, and died. Yeah, it sounds. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You dick. Now, for the record, I know that theory sounds just as bad as the other theory, but beggars can't be choosers. This was all Detective Apple had, Brandy. So he talked to all the electricians, and they were all just really helpful and friendly,

and they all gave him their cell phone numbers and copies of their driver's licenses, and if they had something to hide, they were doing a hell of a job, because they all just seemed like normal dudes from Wisconsin. And by that, I mean that they each had large triangular wedges of cheddar cheese in their hands as they talked to them. No, they were just from Wisconsin. I don't think people from Wisconsin all carry cheddar cheese on their person. They have pocket cheese with them at all times. Gross. Wisconsin all carry cheddar cheese on their person. They have pocket cheese with them at all times.

They keep it wrapped up so that it doesn't get linty. Yeah, I mean, if you carry cheese on you at all times, you would have a system. Yeah. These are no cheese newbies. It's in their blood. Literally, their blood is cheese. So they don't have blood drives. They have like Velveeta drives.

Liquid gold, as they say. Please bring your crock pot full of Velveeta. Do not add Rotel. So I don't think I need to tell you that this case sucked. Yeah. A couple of months passed and it was going nowhere. Greg's friends and family were distraught. The family offered up a $50,000 reward for anyone with information on Greg's death.

And no one came forward. Greg's brother even hired a private detective from Houston. He was a former FBI agent and he seemed legit. But that dude turned out to be about as effective as a strongly worded email to Union Station of Kansas City. No response on that? No response. Susie was so upset someone had murdered her husband and they were going to get away with it

sometimes she'd call up Detective Apple and just yell at him in the episode of 2020 he said he could take it but I saw the pain in his eyes it's true he was like yeah you know I could take that.

But no, he was sad. Yeah. You can't help but be sad. Yeah. Months went by without a break in the case. And so Susie took action. She had recently read an article in Vanity Fair. It was written by a Mr. Mark Bowden.

The title of the article was The Case of the Vanishing Blonde. Did she call up Dick Gunn-Kinn? Mm-hmm. Old Dick Gunn-Kinn makes an appearance in this case? Fuck yes. Yes. Let's go. I was only halfway interested in this story.

Now I'm fully in. By the way, in case you're confused, I covered that fabulously with just the right amount of corny jokes in episode 186 of the Let's Go to Court podcast. Perhaps you've heard of it. So in that article, she learned about a private detective named Ken Brennan. And if you'll recall from that episode, Ken Brennan gets shit done. He rides a motorcycle. He smokes cigars. He lifts weights. He has a tan that says, I go outside. He wears gold chains and little sleeveless numbers. And sometimes when he's posing for a picture for Vanity Fair, he tucks his gun right into the dick area of his jeans.

He's such a badass, he's not even scared of blowing his own dick off, Brandy. In that particular article, which Susie read with great interest, the case was solved, not by the police, but by Ken Brennan when the victim sued the hotel she'd been staying at. So Susie was like, OK, maybe that's exactly what I should do. Maybe I should sue the hotel and I should hire Ken Brennan and he'll figure out what happened to Greg. So that is what she did. Sorry, I didn't need to add the N, but I'm just so excited. You needed it. She hired an attorney named Kia Sherman,

who is outrageously pretty. And that has nothing to do with anything, but please let that information lie on the file. Which is a British term that I don't think means anything. But we're just going to acknowledge it. It's going to lie on the file. Of course. So Susie called up Ken to ask him to investigate her husband's death.

And Ken answered on the first ring. Susie was so flustered. She was like, you don't have a secretary? And Ken said, no, I answer my own phone like a big boy. He didn't really say that, but she was surprised he didn't have, like, an industry. He said, old dick gun Ken needs no secretary. Pat you right through to me. So Susie told him about the case, and he agreed to take it, and he visited Susie and Lafayette,

and he grilled her because it was possible that Susie had had grilled. Grid killed. Greg killed. Iie had had grilled. Grid killed. Greg killed. I almost said Greg grilled. I knew that was what you were going to say. Oh, no. Anyway. I prefer boiled.

What about broiled? Too spicy. But, you know, once she answered all his questions, Ken was convinced that Susie didn't have anything to do with Greg's death. And also, I mean, if she was the real killer, would you call Ken Brennan? No. I don't fucking think so. No. Have you seen his tan?

It says, I go outside. It says, I go outside. Also, okay, I didn't include this part, but in their initial phone call, you know, she told him everything. She's like, she just mentioned she was kind of feeling under the weather. And he goes, you know, he's got this very thick New York accent. And he goes, take care of your fucking self or something like that. Which I think a lot of Southern women would not be charmed. She was charmed.

Yes. Take care of your fucking self. So, you know, he's done the grilling, the broiling, the basting, you know, whatever. Then he shifts the conversation. He asked her, was there anything about the crime scene that didn't seem right to you? And Susie said, yeah, actually. She said that Greg always liked to crank up the AC. He especially didn't want to be hot at night.

She told Ken that Greg liked it like a meat locker at night, which you agree with wholeheartedly. I do. You want to eat candy bars, not smoke cigarettes, but be in a very cold room. I also wouldn't care to watch Iron Man 2. You'd be caught

watching something scandalous. Bonnie does Beaumont. Is that what you watch in Beaumont? Yeah. It's important to support local porn. The local porn industry needs your support. Okay. Oh, okay.

So it had struck her as strange that the room had been so hot that morning when his body was discovered. So Ken made note of that, and then he went to Beaumont. And, stand-up guy that he is, the first thing he did was meet with Detective Apple. And unfortunately, he did not say, I won't step on your dick, like he did with that other detective. Instead, he said something much lamer, like about not being a maverick and not wanting to fuck up the case.

I would say that there was no mention of dicks, but technically he did say that he doesn't do things half-cocked. So I'm going to give partial credit, right? That's definitely. So Detective Apple agreed to bring Ken into the fold. And the next day they sat down together like besties and they looked over the file and Ken was like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

And then he goes, I think I know how this guy died. What? I think I know how this guy died. What? I think I know when he died. I think I know who killed him. And I think I know how we're going to catch him. Everyone, you should see the look on Brandy's face. The look on your face right now is the look I imagine being on Detective Apple's face. Because he'd been working on this case for like seven months.

Yes! And he was like, what? What are you fucking talking about? And Ken was like, I'll tell you what I think, but first I have to call this guy's wife. Ken did this, in my opinion, because he thinks he is the star of a blockbuster film. Why couldn't he have just said it? Yeah! Anyway, too much drama. So Detective Apple just stood there shit dripping down his pants. I'm guessing. And Ken called Susie and here's how the conversation went. Your husband, was he left or

right-handed? He was right-handed. And when he smoked, did he smoke with the cigarette in his left hand or his right hand? He always smoked with his right hand. You sure? I'm positive. And Ken hung up, looking very satisfied, I'm guessing. And he shared his theory with Detective Apple. Oh, I am so fucking excited right now. Okay, first, first I'm going to make us pause.

What is your theory? I have nothing. You have nothing? I have nothing at all. Not a goddamn clue. No. All you know is Sentinel means Florida. Stop it. So here's his theory.

When the circuit breaker blew out, the AC also went out. So Greg was alive when the maintenance guy fixed everything and the maintenance guy left Ken's room at about 830 that evening. That's what's in the hotel's records. It would have taken a while for the room to get warm. So Greg must have been killed somewhere between 830 p.m. and when the room began to get hot. Because if he'd been alive when the room got hot, he would have... He would have made another call to maintenance. Yeah, or he would have just turned the AC on, you know, whatever.

Also, the cigarette in Greg's left hand was proof that he hadn't been beaten and put back in the room. No killer would have snuck the cigarette into his hand. And there was no way that Greg would have been brutally attacked and then gone into his room and calmly lit himself a cigarette. So Ken's theory was that in that time frame, Greg lit himself a cigarette and at some point, perhaps when he got up to go to the door, switched the cigarette temporarily to the other hand. Ken wasn't sure exactly what had happened to Greg, but he circled back to Scott Apple's theory about those electricians. Sure, they all seemed like perfectly nice guys, but was there a chance they were involved somehow?

By this point, the electricians were long gone, back to Wisconsin. But Ken figured that if one of them really had killed Greg, word would have spread. So Ken and Detective Apple went to where the guys had been working, and they asked around, did you hear about the guy who died at the Elegante Hotel? And, of course, they all had. It was such a sad story.

And everyone had heard about it from someone who'd heard about it from someone, so no one really had anything useful to say until they talked to a guy named Aaron Bork. He'd been the foreman of the electrical crew. And Aaron was like, oh yeah, I think I heard something about a gun going off in a boarding house. And Detective Apple was like, no, no, you got it wrong wrong that's not the same case this was the one where a man got into a fight at the elegante hotel and aaron was like oh okay well yeah i don't know anything about that so detective apple and our boy ken left that conversation with Aaron, and Ken was like, we need to go to that hotel. We're going to look for a bullet. Yeah.

So they got to room 348, and they started searching. Up, down, all around, high, low, near, far, looking for a bullet hole. But they couldn't find shit. But then, what? What is it? Say it. No. I'm too scared.

Say it! Come on! Is it in the microwave? Not, like, inside the microwave, but does it, like, hit the microwave? Ooh! That's not a bad theory, actually. No, it's not. Okay. Dumbass.

Thank you. No, that's not bad. So they're right about to leave the room when the guys noticed an indentation on the shared wall with room 349. I know that's awkwardly worded, but, you know, it's the wall that the two rooms share. Do you get it? The wall that the two rooms share. Do you get it? Uh-huh. The wall separating the two rooms. Alright, do we all understand how walls work? We're all following along with walls.

Wait till you guys hear about screen doors! They're not ready! That's the advanced lesson. You guys, it's like a door but there's like a screen on it. So, it looked like it had been repaired and not particularly well. But it also looked like the type of mark you get when a door swings open and the door handle constantly scuffs like one spot on the wall.

So Ken swung open the door, but the door handle didn't quite hit that spot. So they went to the room next door, 349. And they went to the opposite side of that wall. And what do you know? There was a small hole in that wall leading into room 348, and someone had filled it with toothpaste and toilet paper. Pretty soon, they got some more investigators on the scene, and they were able to shine a laser from the hole in 349

through the hole in 348, and the laser lined up right to the point in Greg's bed where he had been sitting, smoking, watching the movie. So now they knew exactly what had happened. Or, to quote Ken, this motherfucker was shot. Well, where's the fucking bullet? Well, it was in his body.

They didn't find it during the autopsy? I'm sorry, I assume it's in his body. Where's the bullet hole? He had a hole in his heart. Did he have a hole in his skin did he have a hole in his skin they never thought that he was shot that was never okay continue

Brandy always one step ahead this motherfucker was shot we get it let's go come on old dick kin dick gun kid damn it the gun is really important in that nickname it sure is We get it. Let's go. Come on. Come on, old dick, Ken. Dick gun, get down. The gun is really important in that nickname. It sure is. You can't lose his name and keep the dick.

By the way, I didn't see any pictures with this story, and I was really disappointed. I could have used another picture of Ken. Yeah. Oh, no. I'm sorry. Oh, for fuck's sake. My phone is not on silence. And I'm very popular, so naturally it only took an hour of recording before it inevitably went off.

So now they had to convince the mad scientist-looking medical examiner, Tommy. Yeah. Because Dr. Tommy Brown had not said that Greg was killed by a bullet, as you brought up. He said he'd likely been beaten or crushed. And this is where we have a real fun battle of the egos. This was essentially a high stakes dick measuring contest because if the doctor refused to change his conclusion, there'd be no way this case could go to court. And to make this even more complicated, the doctor needed to change his conclusion

without taking another look at Greg's body because he'd been cremated. Well, shit, I hope he took some fucking pictures. He did. Okay. But you know how, like, when you come to a conclusion, you really hate to be wrong? Yeah. I know that well. Yeah, well, old Tommy here, he identifies with that.

So Ken's there going through the autopsy photos with Dr. Brown, and he was like, could this injury be caused by a bullet? And Dr. Brown was like, no, no, I already told you, this man was beaten. That's the noise you make when you've got the wild scientist hair. And Ken was like, cool, but could he have been shot? Could this be a bullet wound? And Dr. Brown was like, no. And they kept moving through the pictures until finally they got to that hole in Greg's heart. And Ken said, that's a bullet hole, Doc. That's a fucking bullet hole. And Dr. Brown was like, well, you know, sometimes when a guy gets kicked or hit really hard in the chest, the right atrium bursts. And Ken was like, doc, that's a fucking bullet hole. And the doctor looked at the

photo again. And he said, yeah, that's a bullet hole. The media is going to kill me on this. Oh, shit. Which I must say is so fun to hear because the story is really about him. Yeah, exactly. By the way, Dr. Brown was not interviewed on 2020, but they did get some unflattering B-roll of him walking to his car. Very good. Yeah.

But there's no time to dwell on Tommy. By the way, can we normalize just being like, oh, I made a mistake? I mean, how often does stuff like this happen where you're like, nope, I decided what happened. Yeah. And who cares that this man's family is terrified and needs answers? Yeah. Anyway. So now Ken and Scott Apple had to go track down those electricians and they were like to Wisconsin. And, you know, they did that gesture when you take off for Wisconsin. We all know. And on the way there, Scott Apple said, you know, I pair quite nicely with Wisconsin children.

And that concludes one of only two Apple jokes in this entire script, Brandy. And I would like to be applauded for my heroic restraint. Thank you for applauding, Brandy. It's not necessary. You can stop at any time. They started by meeting with a guy named Tim Steinmetz. Tim had been staying in room 349. And boy, old Timmy didn't know what was about to hit him.

They gave him the all, oh, this is just routine routine. They were like, yep, it's totally normal for us to come all the way to Wisconsin to confirm details with someone we believe to be totally innocent and completely without any knowledge about this crime. And Tim, who I submit was a little dim, was like, cool. And so he told them what he knew, which was nothing. Obviously, he knew nothing, Brandy. And they asked him to sign a statement, all a formality, nothing to worry about. And once he signed it, they got it notarized right there on the spot by a local cop. And Tim was feeling pretty good and thought he was about done. But then Ken was like, freeze, motherfucker!

He was like, I haven't even moved. Did that scare the shit out of you? It did. Did you pee a little? No. Here's how it really went. They had footage of all this good stuff in 2020. So Tim's like, is that it?

And Ken goes, hang on a second. It was until you signed that statement. Now you've got a problem. And Tim was like, what? Okay. And he sat back down in his chair and rumor has it that his deodorant could not keep

up with what was happening. And so Ken drilled into him, bad cop all the way, like, you just made a false police report. Do you know what we do to people who make false police reports, Timmy? We send them right to the chair. Or maybe we give them jail time. You know, just whatever makes sense. Meanwhile, Detective Scott Apple was good copping it up he's like tim timmy tim tam

tim loma we already know what happened we know everything and i get it that you're just trying to be noble and protect a friend but why don't you make like a cashew that's been left out in the rain and crack? And so Tim Steinmetz cracked. And his story was backed up the next day by another electrician named Trent Pisano. And by the way, for his interview with the police, he wore a camouflage hat and overalls, and he was very animated the whole time. I wish they'd showed more of his interview. Here's what they say happened on the night of September 15, 2010.

They'd been in room 349 drinking beer with their co-worker Lance Mueller. And you're going to hear this story and think, wow, is Lance like 19? No, he's in his late 40s, okay? Okay. Okay. Sorry. So upsetting. So they're sitting around drinking, and Lance, who is evidently full of terrible ideas, was like, Hey, Trent, I've got an idea.

Why don't you go out to my car and bring me my whiskey and my gun? And Trent was like, right? Okay. Yeah, that's a terrible idea. Mm-hmm. Trent was like, no problem. So he went and fetched the whiskey and the gun out of Lance's car. And when Trent brought those back to Lance, Lance started playing with the gun. And, you know, just to be hilarious, Lance pointed the gun at Tim. Because there's nothing quite like playing with a loaded gun. Am I right?

Absolutely. And so obviously Tim flipped out. He dropped to the floor and started cursing at Lance. He's like, what the fuck are you doing? Don't point the gun at me. So then fucking Lance pointed the gun at Trent and it went off and Trent freaked out. He thought for a second that he'd been shot. But then they saw a bullet hole in the wall behind him.

And Lance, who'd just been, you know, having fun with a gun like you do, hustled his gun back to his car. And afterward, Lance and Tim went down to the hotel bar and drank some more. Yeah, right? Yeah. Tim claimed that he didn't know that someone was staying in the room next door to them. But when he and Lance came back up to their room after midnight, they heard someone coughing next door. They heard him dying? See, I don't know.

I mean, it's possible. Part of me thinks that's just bullshit to be like, oh, we heard coughing, so we knew it was fine, so I wasn't worried about it. Yeah, you're probably right. But then the next day, they saw Greg's body being pulled out of the room on a gurney, and Tim said he knew that Lance had killed the man in the room next door. So Tim finished this whole terrible, outrageously stupid story, and Ken was like, did anybody knock on the door next door to check on the guy? And Tim said no at this point Ken and Detective Apple were like okay we need you to do something for us

we need you to call Lance get him a talking and we're going to record the call at this point Brandy I would like to pause if you committed murder and i knew about it and you knew that i was meeting with the police and all of a sudden i called you after that meeting and i had you on speakerphone talking about the murder would you be suspicious well fuck yes yes what a fucking numb Okay, my guess is that Tim and Lance don't know each other that well. Right. And so, like, that'd be the only way that he wouldn't be, like, tipped off by, like, maybe he doesn't know that he's meeting with the police, first of all. No, he does. Okay, then Lance is dumb.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because. Yeah. Because he's going to admit to everything on the phone? Pretty much. I mean, not super explicitly, but, you know, what? Okay. Second theory.

He knows that Tim has just met with the police, And so he is like, OK, I'm also going to have to meet with the police at some point. Tim is just calling me, fill me in on how he handled it so our stories can sync up. Well, yeah, of course, that's that's what he thinks. But I mean, you're on speakerphone. No. Yeah. I'm on speakerphone because Tim is driving home You're on speakerphone. No. Yeah, I'm on speakerphone because Tim is driving home from talking to the police. And this is all totally on the up and up. And he's not trying to get anything recorded.

You sweet, beautiful idiot. So Tim called Lance and he was like, hey, you know, yeah, I told them the whole truth. They talked for a while and it was awkward. And finally Tim was like, you should probably call up this detective. They're probably going to come get your ass. That guy died from a gunshot. And Lance goes, are you shitting me, Tim? Okay, apparently Lance had already had his lawyer get a copy of Greg's autopsy report.

And he had taken great solace in the fact that it didn't say he died from a gunshot wound. And so he kept telling Tim, it doesn't make sense. First, the coroner ruled that it was a heart attack. Then they started saying that something fell on him. There's no way. There's absolutely no way that guy was killed by a bullet. They eventually got off the phone.

And a while later, Lance called Ken Brennan. And he was like, I haven't got something to say. Well, he'd been drinking. And Ken was like, you're drunk. I suggest you call your fucking attorney. Woo! Yes! Old dick gun, Ken!

Mm-hmm. Suggest you call your fucking attorney. Yes! Old dick gun kid! Suggests you call your fucking attorney. It really seems like Lance tried to convince himself that Greg didn't die from his gunshot, but at the same time, he was the one who patched the bullet hole with toothpaste and toilet paper, and he hid the gun in his car, and then he hid it with a friend

a few days after Greg's death, and then he hid it with a friend a few days after Greg's death and then he gave it to an attorney in Texas for safekeeping I guess. Great. So maybe he tried to tell himself that he hadn't actually killed a guy but he sure as hell acted like he just killed a guy. So this story all comes out into the open. But despite Lance's clearly irresponsible and criminal conduct, the local district attorney was like, I don't really know if we can charge this guy with a felony. Accidental deaths are kind of a gray area in the Texas criminal code. And I guess judges and juries in Texas tend to be pretty understanding about a gun accidentally going off. So we're thinking, it's plea deal time.

But as soon as Ken Brennan caught wind of this, he was like, oh, hell no. And he and Susie hauled ass to Beaumont for a meeting with the DA's office. And the assistant DA told them, you know, well, it's complicated because like the lawyer who has Lance's gun doesn't really want to hand it over. And this is all just super tough. And by this point, Ken was about to blow a gasket. And he was like, are you kidding me? That's part of a crime scene. Go get the damn gun. Yeah. Here's what he remembers saying next. And fair warning, this is a bit of a tirade, so buckle up.

Click. We're not going to let this thing be brushed under the rug. Let somebody take a plea on this. This is not a fucking accident. An accident is when somebody comes in, has taken off their gun, their gun discharges, and God forbid somebody is hit. That's one thing. It's completely different when somebody brings a gun that they shouldn't have into another fucking state, shit-faced drunk, fucking around with a gun. The people with him realize something bad could happen, and he discharges around.

Almost kills the guy he's with. And then he does kill somebody on the other side of the wall he knows that's something that could happen it's an occupied hotel he doesn't even bother to knock on the door next door to see if anybody's hurt and after that his answer to the whole thing is to go get drunk some more in the fucking bar of the hotel and then when he sees a body being taken out the next day and he is a hundred certain he killed somebody, he decides not to say anything about it but run to his attorney and leave the fucking weapon in a safe and the fucking attorney doesn't say anything about it either. You know what that is?

That's fucking murder. So if you think you're going to forget about this fucking thing, think again because that ain't fucking happening. Woo! Mm! Woo! Don't you get all Dick Gunn-Ken fired up. No.

Blah, blah. I don't think I have to tell you that the speech was effective. Mm-hmm. Lance Mueller was ultimately charged with manslaughter, and he pled no contest. So that's a little different from a guilty plea. I feel like we don't cover a lot of no contests. You're not explicitly admitting that you're guilty of the crime, but you're basically agreeing to be punished for it and to not fight it, not go through a trial. So the reason I think he pled no contest is because sometimes a guilty plea in a criminal case can be used against you in a civil case.

Sometimes a guilty plea in a criminal case can be used against you in a civil case. And Susie had already made it abundantly clear that she was not afraid of looking herself in the mirror and saying, Let's go to court! At Lance's sentencing on October 29, 2012, the judge lit into him for being an irresponsible sack of shit. That's not a direct quote, but it is the vibe. Yes. The judge could have given Lance 20 years, but instead gave him 10 with eligibility for parole after five.

The prosecution was pretty happy with this sentence. They'd evidently worried that he'd just get probation. And, okay, in the article, they said that if he just owned up to this right away, he probably would have gotten nothing. He wouldn't have been charged at all, likely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, if he would have called the police immediately and been like, yeah, my gun went off and, you know.

Yeah. I think I might have hurt someone. Yeah. Yeah, probably nothing would have happened. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Yeah. Probably nothing would have happened. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Well, and it sure seems like if Susie hadn't been such a bulldog about this, like, he would have gotten away with it. Yeah. Wasn't for those meddling kids.

Meddling kids. Scooby-Doo, Kristen. Meddling kids. Scooby-Doo, Kristen. You don't have to be so disgusted with me. If you had just simply said, yikes, scoops, I would have known exactly what you were talking about. So Susie, who had been so relentless in finding out what had happened to her husband, faced Lance in court that day, and I think

you're going to love this. She turned to him and she said, You have met your match. I would have spent the rest of my life tracking you down, and I found you. Greg's murderer. I brought you to justice.

Woo! That's murderer. I brought you to justice. Woo! That's good. I don't think I have to tell you that's the closer for Mark's article. I mean, that is good shit. But we're going to keep going because I'm no Mark Bowden.

Susie had initially filed a civil suit as a way of investigating Greg's death. And after that investigation was complete and she knew who was responsible, she decided to keep the lawsuit going. So she sued Lance Mueller, Tim Steinmetz and Trent Pisano and MCM Elegante Hotel and Delta Security, which provides security for the hotel. In her lawsuit, she argues that the hotel should have taken action to quiet down the guys in the room next to Greg. And Susie also believes that if Lance or Tim or Trent had acted even remotely responsibly, they would have gone over to the room where Lance had fired that bullet to see if the person in 348 was okay. She thinks that if they'd done that, they might have been able to save his life.

And she could be right. Dr. Tommy Brown had originally said that Greg only lived for like 30 seconds after that initial hit. But he later said that Greg might have lived 10 minutes. And another medical examiner said that Greg could have been alive for several hours. Wow. The most recent article I could find on this lawsuit was from 2015, and it said that Susie's attorney had filed a motion to dismiss because she'd resolved her claims against Trent Pisano.

I assume she settled with everyone else, too, because the trial was canceled, of course, and that's the story of the murder of Greg Flanagan. Oh, my gosh. So I'm sorry that there wasn't a ton of court stuff but i thought the court stuff that was there was pretty fucking interesting yeah because it's like this weird gray area in the law where you're i mean oh gosh I mean, oh, gosh. Yeah. I think the fact, yes, I think the difference is, yeah, had the shot gone off and they hadn't done anything even that night, but then the next day they see the gurney being pulled out of there and they come forward and say, oh, my gosh, there was this terrible accident last night.

We had no idea. No charges would have been filed. Oh, no. But because they saw that, they patched the hole. Oh, yeah. I mean, the DA wasn't even excited about pressing charges when there was actual evidence and stuff. Okay, you want to hear something kind of interesting? This part I did not write down. I saw it in another article.

So Detective Scott Apple, he was there right was there, you know, right away. He was the first responding officer to this call. And apparently, when he was there, you know, with Greg's body, these electrician guys were coming out of their room. And, you know, they looked over. And Scott said, it just seemed kind of awkward. They were, like, super quiet. But, you know, there was a dead body and stuff. And so he turned to the guys and said something like, hey, how you doing?

And Lance said something like, I was doing better until now. And at the time, Scott just thought, oh, he just doesn't like cops. Yeah. But obviously looking back, he's like, oh, wow. No, he murdered a guy. Yeah. And he knew I was there. Yeah.

To, oh, yeah. Isn't that wild? Yeah. Huh. That was very good. So I couldn't find a lot of interviews with Susie. Mm-hmm. But she did did in one article I read. I thought this was kind of interesting.

She talked about how scary it had been when they couldn't find the murderer. Because, you know, obviously someone's been beaten. Yeah. I mean, when you think someone's been beaten, she thought, OK, is this person going to come after me now? This is clearly someone who's got a lot of anger. Yes. Yeah. And so she was just terrorized for just months and months and months.

Yeah. And he could have put an end to that part of the suffering if he just, ugh, anyway. You're so right about what you said about what he was watching in his hotel room that story would have had a very different tone had he been watching porn yes he would have been like labeled as like a sex addict or a deviant and yeah i mean yeah worst case scenario or no best case scenario it's just like a gross detail that now everyone's going to know about you. Yeah. Ugh.

Whew. Okay, I have to pee. Whoa, you never have to pee. I know, I drank water and iced tea. So. So, I'm pretty hydrated. Super hydrated. Okay, you got some creepy love triangle to tell me about?

I do. super hydrated okay you got some creepy love triangle to tell me about i do shout out to lane to gregory for her article in the tampa bay times i have used a source of hers before maybe i shouldn't talk while i'm moving the whole microphone maybe you shouldn't we're almost to 200 episodes and you're learning this now. That's cool. I have used Lane DeGregory as a source before she writes amazing articles. So this almost entirely comes from her article for the Tampa Bay Times. If you like her so much, why don't you marry her? If you like tacos so much, why don't you marry him? I just get a little jealous when you talk about other ladies.

tacos so much, why don't you marry him? I just get a little jealous when you talk about other ladies. I didn't call her my best friend. Well, it seemed close. It seemed like we were getting there. All of a sudden it's, oh, I can't hang out. I'm hanging out with Lady Gregory.

I don't think Lane DeGregory has any interest in hanging out with me. I don't think Lane DeGregory has any interest in hanging out with me. I don't think so either. So don't even try it. What if Lane DeGregory emails us after this and she's like, actually, Brandi, I really enjoy you and I'd love to get together for coffee sometime. Kristen, you're not invited. It'd be a shame if something were to happen to that email.

A real shame. All right, let's go. Okay. Rachel Wade and Sarah Ludeman were as different as they could be. Though they grew up in the same town, Pinellas Park, Florida, and had at some point attended the same high school, that's about where the similarities ended. Sarah was from a working class family.

Her father was a taxi driver. Her mother was a nurse. She was an only child and it had taken her parents 16 years to have her. They'd relocated to Florida from New York so that they'd have a nice, safe place to raise their beloved daughter. Sarah was a daddy's girl who loved animals and dreamed of becoming a vet. Rachel was from a middle-class family who lived in a nicer part of town. She'd grown up in a nice house with a pool.

I don't know that Sarah didn't live in a nice house. It just wasn't mentioned. know that Sarah didn't live in a nice house. It just, you know, just wasn't mentioned. And she had gotten along really well with her parents until she was around 15 years old. At that point, she started rebelling. She was skipping school. She was sneaking out of the house. And it wasn't long before she dropped out of school and moved in with her boyfriend. Oh, shit. The relationship was super toxic, though, and arguments would often turn physical. So after a couple of years, Oh, shit. and got her GED. She described herself as fiercely independent. And I think it's worth noting here because like every article mentioned it, that she wasn't estranged from her parents. They were just of the school of thought. It seems that Rachel should be responsible for making her

own decisions in life. When she first started rebelling and breaking curfew and sneaking out and running away, they actually put her into counseling and called the police on her several times. But eventually it seems they went the way of, if you don't want to live by our rules, you can't live under our roof. Well, that's hard for me to understand. Yeah, I agree. Reportedly though, after getting herself like all set up on her own, she and her parents had dinner together a couple nights a week. Well, isn't that great? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. With your 15-year-old. She was 18 by this point. Okay. But yeah, she moved out when she was like 15 or 16. Yeah. I don't understand it. No.

No. I should note, I am not a parent. Right. And I'm a very new parent, so very easy for us to be judgy. I don't know. I just, it'd be hell on earth. I can tell you that. It'd be hell on earth.

Absolutely. Yeah. But my be hell on earth. Absolutely. Yeah. But my kid wouldn't be going anywhere. No. Anyway, back to Sarah and Rachel. No, back to my imaginary kid. And what a hard ass I would be. Both girls were beautiful, but again, very different.

Both girls were beautiful, but again, very different. Sarah was tall, like 5'9", and several articles called her big boned, which I fucking hate. It's very important to mention. And Rachel, in contrast, was very small and petite and like 5'4". Little boned. That's what they called her, bird boned. Bird boned. No, of course they did. They said she was cute and petite. And Sarah was big boned. Little boned. That's what they called her. Bird boned. No, of course they did. They said she was cute and petite.

And Sarah was big boned. And one article said she weighed like 160 pounds. So at 5'9", that's not big. Oh, God. Yes. Wow. Yes.

Pretty fucking judgy. Yeah, exactly. Sarah and Rachel did have two big things in common, though. Bones. Sorry. The first was that they were both dating the same guy. Oh, no. And the second was that they fucking hated each other.

Well, yeah, as you would. Yeah. The guy they were both seeing was Josh Camacho. And I am here to tell you that he's a total fucking douche canoe who managed to walk away from this whole situation completely unscathed and seemingly unbothered, even though his scumbag residue was all over the whole fucking thing.

I don't want to hear any more about this guy's residue. I'm now going to share with you the description Lane DeGregory gave of Josh in her article for the Tampa Bay Times. Oh, I can't wait. Let's hear it. article for the Tampa Bay Times. Oh, I can't wait. Let's hear it.

Josh had curly hair, the color of coal, spilling across sculpted shoulders. Okay, A.C. Slater. Black eyes, a long nose, wide lips curled up in a sneer. His dark jeans hung low on his slim hips. His dark jeans hung low on his slim hips. He stood about five feet five, but walked with the swagger of a bigger man. What, five seven? Josh loved posing for cell phone portraits, flexing his biceps. Cell phone portraits? Waving a gun Showing off the tattoo that arced

across his back in inch high gothic letters. Camacho. His last name. That was a very popular thing at one time to get specifically in gothic letters your last name across your back. I will say

that's a very cool last name. I know you hate everything about this guy. That's a cool last name. It is a cool last name. It is. Anyway, are we getting a picture of Josh the Dirtbag? Sounds pretty hot. You would think he was hot. Minus the height. Yeah, he's pretty

scrawny. He does have like, I saw a shirtless picture of him. There's some abs there, but scrawny little dude. How old is he? Like, 19. Yeah, okay. Alright. So Rachel had actually met Josh for the

first time in elementary school when he was the new kid who had transferred into her class after relocating from New York. They were like acquaintances for the next few years, but nothing more than that. It wasn't until Rachel had gone through her whole, you know, rebellious phase, moved out of the house, broken up with the boyfriend, you know, all that stuff, that she would run into Josh again. She saw him

at a party and she immediately recognized him. They flirted that night and then over the next few weeks, Rachel stopped by the Chick-fil-A where Josh worked and she visited him. And before long, Josh and Rachel were hooking up. He would sleep over at her apartment. But she suspected that he was seeing other girls. She was right, by the way, because he got a third girl pregnant during this whole situation. Good Lord. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. So they were pretty on again, off again. It was a vicious cycle. They'd get together. Things would go good for a minute. Then Rachel would complain to her friends that Jess was cheating on her. They'd all tell her, you know, you should break up with him. You could do so much better.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she would. And then it would start all over again. They'd get back together, you know. Sarah, on the other hand, had met Josh in the summer of 2008. It was the summer before her junior year of high school. And she was eating lunch with a friend at Chick-fil-A when one of the cooks came out of the back on his break. No, not allowed.

Sarah looked up and made eye contact with him and he waved. He winked. He smelled of french fries. And Sarah's... Oh, I'm sorry. He smelled of french fries. I'm sorry. I thought you were saying he smelled... He had a french fries and he sniffed them.

There's nothing like a man sniffing French fries. And she said, are these your shortened curlies I'm finding in my fries? Gross. You said he had curly hair. Did have curly hair. But it wasn't short. It cascaded on his. Are these gulped shoulders?

You're long and curly. Gross. I assume they're required to wear hats and stuff. I sure hope so. Anyway. I mean, he's out there sniffing the fries. Sarah's friend that she was eating lunch with said that it was love at first sight for Sarah. Sarah had never had a boyfriend before.

She hadn't actually even expressed a lot of interest in boys to this point. But all of that changed on that summer day in 2008. She and Josh spent the summer flirting. She wanted to be his girlfriend so badly. And she had no idea that he actually had a girlfriend. Probably two, actually actually at this point. Sarah's parents noticed some changes in their daughter that summer. Up to this point, she had been attending a special high school that was like an hour away.

She was bused to it every day to attend a veterinary prep program that would like set her up to be on an advanced path when she went to college. Oh, cool. OK. But in the summer of 2008, she went to her parents and she was like, you know what? I'm just not really sure what I want to do with my life. I'm not sure I want to be a vet anymore. Can I just go to Pinellas Park High School, which is the school that she would go to regularly from her house? And they were like, I mean, okay, if that's what you want.

What she didn't tell her parents was that that was the school that Josh went to and where he would be a senior that next year. When school started, though, Sarah was disappointed that Josh would barely acknowledge her in the halls. Most days he offered nothing more than like a little chin nod in her direction. Wow, that really sucks. Yeah, yeah. It wasn't until November that Sarah and Josh were officially together, but even then friends noticed that Josh didn't seem to want to claim Sarah in public. He wouldn't hold her hand. He wouldn't walk with her. But when they were alone or just around a couple of friends, he was all over her. Fuck off. Yeah. Yeah. This guy's a giant scumbag. I've gotten the vibe. Sarah was completely head over heels in love with Josh.

He was her first kiss, her first boyfriend, her first everything. But as I mentioned early on, Josh was a super fucking dick and friends and family started to notice changes in Sarah as soon as she started dating him. The first thing people noticed were her pants. What? Sarah never wore pants. She always wore shorts year round. It was Florida. It never got that cold. She loved shorts. She always wore shorts. Then suddenly she was wearing pants all the time. And when asked about it, she said Josh preferred it that way. He didn't want other guys checking out her legs.

Okay. Sarah started withdrawing from her friends and spending all of her time with Josh. Her parents were very concerned by what they saw, but they knew they had like zero chance of keeping Sarah from Josh. So they decided to embrace him. They invited him over for dinner. Her dad took him to a couple of ball games. Sarah's dad sat down with Josh and like asked him specifically like, take care of my daughter. Don't let anything happen to her. Up until this point, like Sarah had never been in any kind of trouble in her life, like not at all. But that all changed when she started dating Josh.

But that all changed when she started dating Josh. In the first six months they were together, police interviewed her six times over different public confrontations that had happened. Like, people would call the police because she and Josh would be screaming at each other in public. On one instance, someone saw Josh reach across and slap her across the face. Oh. someone saw Josh reach across and slap her across the face. Her parents obviously wanted to press charges, but Sarah wouldn't allow it. So obviously not a very healthy relationship, if, you know, is anybody wondering. It's unclear to me exactly how much overlap there was in Josh's relationship with Rachel and his relationship with Sarah. What I do know is that Rachel found out about Sarah

in the summer of 2008, which is like right when Sarah met Josh. At that point, Josh and Rachel had been dating on and off for a few months. Then one day, Rachel went on MySpace in 2008? People still using MySpace in 2008? Not a lot of people. Yeah. So this little group, everybody's on MySpace. Okay. So she goes on MySpace and there's this picture that Josh is tagged in.

And he's like hanging out all over this other girl. And the picture was tagged was Josh and Sarah Ludeman. This happened like June 17th, 2008, I believe. After seeing the picture, Rachel went on her MySpace and posted this message. When we first met, I was madly in love. But since then, things have changed. You called me names. You slept around. I deserve so much better. Before long, a comment appeared under that post, and it said something to the effect of,

Josh has something better now. He found something better. Ouch. And it was a comment from Sarah. At some point in there, Rachel got Sarah's phone number and she called and left her a voicemail. A voicemail which Sarah then went on and played for her friends.

This is what it said. You're fucking with me when you fuck with Josh. Seriously, I'm letting you know you're either going to get fucked up or something of yours is. Stop being a bitch. Sarah was not going to be scared away by Rachel, though. She and her friends started going to Applebee's and sitting in Rachel's section. Oh, no. They would harass her.

They'd bump into her when she was carrying trays of food. They'd sing, I don't know this song, and I didn't bother to look it up. But the song Girl Fight was popular at the time. So they'd sing that during karaoke and then like just like make eye contact, like really aggressive eye contact. As if working at Applebee's doesn't suck hard enough. Yeah. So in response, Rachel left Sarah more messages. She called her fat. She called her pathetic.

She said, why would he want you when he could have me? This just kept going on. One night after Rachel got off work at Applebee's, she pulled up at Taco Bell to get dinner before she went home and another car pulled up next to her. The windows rolled down and three girls were in the car and they started shooting silly string at Rachel. Lord almighty. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah.

So Rachel called the police and they were like, you know, it's not really nothing really. There's not really anything we can do about it. It's silly string. But these kind of things kept on going on. And while this was going on, Josh and Rachel were still hooking up. He was still spending the night at her house regularly. And then he was also still seeing Sarah. But instead of either of them getting mad at Josh, their hatred for each other just grew and grew and grew.

One time, Rachel and her friend were like sitting out on like the front porch area of her apartment and Sarah drove past, rolled down her window and yelled, come fight me. One day, Sarah called the police and said she wanted to make a report about harassment because Rachel had called her 20 times in two hours. Each call was threatening. She'd left a bunch of messages. But again, the police are like, no, like nothing has become physical at this point. Like there's nothing we can do. Is this just because it's two girls?

Probably. Yeah. What could this escalate to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They thought, what could this escalate to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Messages, comments, interactions like this went on for months.

And fucking Josh just kept egging it on. He told both and Rachel that it was over with the other one, that he'd broken up, blah, blah, blah. The other one was just still hanging around. She's so obsessed with me. I'm sorry, what am I supposed to do? No, I'm just amazing. I've got the cascading hair. He said all that other bullshit that slimy slime balls say all the time.

This would all come to a head on April 14th, 2009. come to a head on April 14th, 2009. That Tuesday started out rough for Sarah, and it would only get worse. At lunch in the high school cafeteria, Sarah, like, laid over the lunch table crying as she told her friends that fucking Josh was up to his usual shenanigans. He did it again, she told her friends. She had just found out that he'd spent the night at Rachel's apartment. Rachel was texting Sarah, taunting her. Rachel told Sarah that she and Josh were back together, that it was over for her, that he wanted her and not Sarah.

And Sarah cried to her friends. She said, I'm so over it. And her friends were like, yeah, we're fucking over it, too. This has been going on for months. And we keep telling you, you're too good for this. You deserve better. But this was Sarah's first love. And at the time, Josh seemed like her whole world.

Her friends begged her to go out with him that day after school. Let's go to the mall. Let's go to the movies. Let's do anything that will get your mind off this drama. But Sarah declined. She wanted to see Josh. She needed to be with Josh. About this same time across town, Rachel was having a very similar conversation with her friends. She was off work for the day and her friends came over to her apartment to cheer her up. He did it again, she told her friends. She told them that he'd spent the night last night but had left that morning before she'd even gotten out of bed. Her friends asked her why she kept dealing with this bullshit.

They told her that she could do way better. Why was she putting up with this? Rachel said that she thought it would be different this time. Josh told her that he and Sarah were done, that he just wanted to be with her. But Rachel told her friends that she knew she couldn't trust him, that she felt like something was up. And, of course, she was right. That morning she'd gotten on MySpace and had seen that Sarah had posted new pictures of her and Josh at the beach. She was bragging about how they just spent spring break together in New York.

Rachel's friends tried to take her mind off of things. They asked her to go out with them. Let's go shopping. Let's go to Starbucks. But Rachel declined. She was supposed to get together with Josh. Oh, my God. No, no.

This guy's such a piece of shit. Mm-hmm. with Josh. Oh my god, no. No. This guy's such a piece of shit. On the afternoon of April 14th, 2009, when Sarah's dad picked her up at school, her eyes were swollen. She'd been crying again, he could tell. She'd been crying every day for two weeks.

He went to hug her, but she pulled away and he noticed like when he did that, that she was almost frail. She'd lost like 30 pounds in six months while all of this bullshit had been going on. He took her home and, you know, tried to cheer her up. But she just went to her room and she got on MySpace and she saw that Rachel had made a post. It said, mood, loving my boo. Sarah thought that this was a taunt directed at her.

So she texts Josh. It was 1.06 p.m. She said, whatever, Josh, you get so mad at me for everything and you don't even give a shit when she puts something up or says something. You always believe her. She sent another text two minutes later. It's like no matter what I do, she's always that much better. She sent another text five minutes after that. All we fight about is her or something that has to do with her. And it sucks. I hate fighting with you. I love you so much, but this shit hurts. Hours passed, and she got no response.

She texted him again at 6.36 p.m. You say you love me, but you don't even have the decency to text me back. He finally responded at 8.02 p.m. And he said, bring over the movies. What? That was their plan that night that she was going to bring movies over and they were going to watch movies. And so when she got the text, Sarah borrowed her mom's minivan, got the movies, loaded in and drove like the two blocks to Josh's sister's house where they had planned to hang out. But before she left, she updated her MySpace. She wrote simply, I love you, baby.

All one word. Across town, Rachel was at her apartment waiting for Josh to show up. She didn't know that Sarah was on her way to hang out with him and watch the movies. And it was just about dark. She was out walking her dog and she heard a car honk at her. She looked up and she saw a car she recognized. It was Sarah's mom's minivan and Sarah was driving. And Sarah rolled down the window as she drove by and said, stay away from my man.

This shook Rachel. She was. Lord almighty. Just tired of all of this. And so she called a friend, an ex-boyfriend, actually, and said, you know, can I please come over? I just I don't want to be alone. And so he was like, yeah, come on over. And before she left, she grabbed her purse and she pulled out, she pulled open a kitchen drawer and grabbed a steak knife and slid it in her purse.

And then she left. Fast forward. It's 11 p.m. now. Sarah was supposed to be home. That was her curfew. But instead, she was playing Wii with Josh at his sister's house. About that time, some headlights shined through the window. It was like somebody had pulled into the driveway.

Josh peeked out and he saw Rachel's Saturn in the driveway. And then Josh got a text from Rachel. She said, now I know why you're not talking to me. It's because you've got her. And Josh responded, that's right. And then he said, I don't like you anymore. Why are you on this street? Go home.

And Rachel texts back. She said, no, I'll wait for her to leave. Oh, shit. So at this point, Sarah was already way late for curfew. Her dad was texting her. When are you coming home? And she just kept saying back soon. But now Sarah didn't want to leave because Rachel was in the driveway. Can you imagine? I'm sorry.

No. Oof. Yeah. So now Sarah's like, okay, I'm not going outside while she's sitting in the driveway. Right. That's just asking for a fight. Right. So she waited. She waited until Rachel drove away. It was

midnight now. And she was like, okay, Josh, I'm going home. And as she was leaving, Josh's sister and her friend that was there were like, hey, can you just drop us off at McDonald's on your way home? And she was like, yeah, that's no problem. And so they all got in the minivan. And then, like, this is a

pretty small town, I guess. So they, like, pull up at a stop sign and then, like, one of Sarah's friends is also, like, at that same intersection. They roll windows down and talk to each other and she's like, and the friend is like, guess who I just fucking saw? And Sarah's like, who?

And she's like, I saw Rachel. She's over at Javier's house. And so Sarah was like, we're going by there. No. We're just gonna drive by. No. And as she, like, we're going by there. No. We're just going to drive by. No. And as she like starts to drive that direction, her phone rings.

Oh, my God. And it's Rachel. And she answers it. And Rachel says, I'm going to fucking kill you. Okay. So she gets this call right as she's like pulling on the street guy, Javier, lives, where she knows Rachel's hanging out. And so she pulls on the street. She sees Rachel standing outside the house, like, leaning against the car, talking to these two guys.

And she just, like, slams on the brakes, like, comes, like, within five feet of hitting Rachel. She jumps out of the car, leaves the keys in the ignition and then runs up to Rachel, like basically about to punch her. She's got like her arms flailing and then like it's just fucking chaos. Well, yeah. The other people jump out of the minivan. Fucking Rachel. What? Rachel comes running forward and she pulls the steak knife out of her back pocket.

Oh, no. And just start swinging. Before Sarah had even known what had happened, Rachel stabbed her twice, once in the shoulder and once in the chest. Sarah doesn't even really know what has happened at this point. She knows that something has happened. She's bleeding. She's clutching her chest.

She slips back into the car. Driver's door opens. She sits in the driver's seat. She looks over. And at this point, Josh's sister has gotten out of the car. Because she was like in the fight in the street. And she's like, get in. We got to go. Sarah at this point pulled fight in the street. She's like, get in. We got to go.

Sarah at this point pulled out her cell phone. She's got blood all over her. Her hands are sticky. And she opens her phone and she calls Josh. What? It hurts is all she manages to get out. He then, I believe, like calls his sister to figure out what's going on. Someone calls the police and it's like, hey, there's been a fight.

Someone's bleeding like you need to get here right now at this point. So when Josh figures out where they are and what has happened, he runs to Sarah's house. Her house is just like two blocks from his sister's house and gets her parents. And it's like, there's been a fight. I don't know what's going on. Sarah's hurt. And so they drive to Javier's house where this is all going down in the street. The minivan is still sitting there idling.

The police are there by now. Paramedics are working on Sarah. She is laying in the middle of the street. Oh. Her dad rushed up to her and was pushed back by the police. And he said he knew at that moment that Sarah was dead. Oh, my God. He and Josh left. They went to the hospital, but Josh didn't want to see Sarah.

They were working on reviving her, working on saving her life, trying to get her into surgery. She'd lost so much blood. Her parents were allowed to go in and see her. And when they came out. When they were made to leave her room. Josh was gone. Back at the scene. The police were trying to figure out. What the fuck had happened. Yeah. And Rachel was sitting on a bench.

Smoking a cigarette. She had a fat lip. She said she'd gotten punched. During the whole thing. That Josh's sister had taken off her sandal and beaten her with it. And they were like, OK, we need to, like, take you down to the station, get an official statement from you. And it wasn't until then that she was making her official statement at the police station that she told them about the knife. Immediately after stabbing her, she'd taken the knife and thrown it on the neighbor's roof. Wow. Yeah. She said that she had grabbed the knife that day when Sarah had driven by her house

yelling. And she said she just had a feeling that something was going to happen that night and that she needed to be able to defend herself. But that really she had just hoped that it would scare her away. So they're in an interrogation room, you know, talking about this fight. And she's like, you know, it's just been, this has been building and building and building for months. And at this point, Rachel was not very emotional.

Like, she didn't really know exactly what had gone on. She just thought there had been this fight. And so the police were really harsh with her. They were like. Did they sneeze in her face? They did. That's gross. Yeah.

They were like, do you know what you did? And she's like, well, I fought her. And they're like. Did she really not know she'd killed her? They're like, Sarah is dead. You killed her. And she just broke down sobbing and could not stop. She told the detectives through tears that she never meant for this to happen. She never wanted it to happen.

She just wanted Sarah to stop harassing her. She thought the knife would scare her off. She kept repeating, like, I have a good life. I have a great life. I work hard. I have my own apartment. I never meant for this to happen. And she said she didn't even realize that she had stabbed her.

Well, yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. Because you got rid of the knife. Yeah, you definitely did. Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. Because you got rid of the knife. Yeah, you definitely did. Rachel Wade was arrested and charged with second-degree murder.

Sarah's funeral was held a few days later, a month before she would have gone to her high school prom. A few days later, a month before she would have gone to her high school prom, her parents kept her room exactly as she'd left it for, I think this article was written like a year later and it was still that same way. Her dad had gone in and he hadn't, he'd kept it exactly like she'd left it with one exception. He'd taken down every picture of Josh and destroyed them. Yeah. They did not allow Josh to come to her funeral, though I don't know that he would have attended. Yeah. Yeah. He doesn't seem like the type. He never visited Rachel in jail as she awaited trial, unable to make bail, and he never even wrote her a letter. Police told Lane DeGregory that his relatives had shipped him off to New York following this incident. Wow. Mm-hmm.

In preparation for Rachel Wade's trial, Josh was deposed. During that sworn deposition, Josh said, yeah, he got around. Yes, he was sleeping with both girls and with the woman that he had impregnated. But none of them were his girlfriend. They were all just friends with benefits. Okay. He said that multiple times across this deposition. At one point he was asked, okay, so you have indicated here that you thought Sarah loved you.

Did you love her back? Josh was quiet for a minute, and then he said, I think I did. Rachel's trial began on July 20th, 2010. The prosecutor told the jury that Rachel Wade murdered her nemesis and then sat on a bench smoking a cigarette while Sarah bled to death in the street. The stabbing was described

to the jury as so violent that the knife blade was bent. Not only that, but she had attempted to hide the murder weapon immediately after the crime. Hold on. Did she stay at the scene?

Oh, yeah. Oh, so she didn't, like, go off to some bench. No, it was, like, right there outside whatever house they were at. She was right there. She never left. Well, then she had to know she killed her. She truly did not seem to know. I watched her reaction when they told her.

And it seemed very shocking, yes. Okay. I think she thought she stabbed her in the shoulder. Yeah. And really hurt her. What she actually did was stab her directly in the heart. Oh, fuck. Yeah.

Thanks. You're welcome. This is not the Wild West, the prosecutor told the jury. You have to make choices. What would have happened if she hadn't brought the knife that night? Sarah would be alive and we wouldn't be here. But the defense argued self-defense, citing Florida's stand your ground law. I was going to say this is a tricky one. It is. It's really tricky. Sarah came to her. Mm hmm. Yeah, it's very tricky. Yeah. Rachel's attorney told the jury, Rachel Wade has a right

to be there. Rachel Wade had a right to stand her ground. Rachel Wade had a right to defend herself. But do you have a right to defend yourself with a knife when somebody's coming at you with just their fists? Right. That's the question. I mean, that's the question for the jury, right? And for me. Yes, and for you to decide, yes. Because this matters right here.

Because this matters right here. The defense maintained that Rachel was scared that night when she was jumped by a very angry Sarah. Months and months of vicious taunts and bickering came to a head that night. And it was Sarah, not Rachel, who started the fatal fight. It's a decent point. Okay, this is going to be controversial. I agree. Yeah.

Where do you land on this? I have a really tough time with it. I don't really know where I land. I'm still kind of torn on it. Yeah, I don't know that you have the right to defend yourself to the death, but I agree that Sarah started the fight. She came to Rachel that night.

After a lot of harassment. Yeah. Now, it does sound like the harassment went both ways. It did go both ways. But Sarah showed like, showed up at her work a lot, and I mean showing up with multiple people in a van,

I think you could argue that, yeah, using a knife in that situation. So that incident, the Applebee's incident, the defense attorney specifically brought up and was like, look, this was an ongoing thing.

She was scared that she was going to be jumped constantly by Sarah. They came to her work and harassed her. They drove by her home and harassed her. They showed up when she was at Taco Bell and harassed her. Yes, that time it was only with silly string, but. Yeah, honestly, that would scare the shit out of me. Absolutely. When you're that outnumbered.

Yeah. I mean, eventually that can turn violent pretty quickly. Oh, I'd let her go. It's really tough. Really tough. Josh Camacho was brought forward at trial as a key figure in this love triangle. Both sides agreed that he encouraged the feud between Sarah and Rachel. Oh, yeah. He loved the drama.

Oh, 100%. Josh testified for the prosecution. His sister testified. Another friend that was present for some of this stuff testified. And they talked about how when they had stopped there that night at that where the whole fight went down, that, yes, Sarah did jump out of the car and go towards Rachel. But Rachel came towards her, too. Mm-hmm. Javier, the ex-boyfriend of Rachel's, whose house they were at, testified, and he said that, yeah, there was a fight there that night, but unfortunately, he wasn't able to see much of it because there were just too many people.

Okay. Rachel Wade took the stand in her own defense. Her attorney advised her against it. He actually advised her not to go to trial at all and to try and get a plea deal. But she said it was super important to her. Going to trial and taking the stand was the only way that she would be able to tell her side of the story. Okay. She testified that she feared for her life the night of the attack.

She said Sarah and two other women had hunted her down that night and she'd been so scared that she sought refuge at a friend's house and that they'd still managed to track her down there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I... It's so tough. Is it, though?

I mean, she tried to get the police involved once. Mm-hmm. And they told her, you know. Yeah, and, like, nothing physical has happened, so there's nothing we can do. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know that if this girl tends to run in numbers when it does get physical, you're going to be in a really bad place. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, maybe you do keep a weapon on you. Mm hmm. Rachel testified that she'd only had the knife that night to scare Sarah away.

She actually hoped that it would help her avoid a fight. She thought if Sarah saw it, she'd back off. So over the course of this trial, which only lasted like three days, the prosecution had played voicemails that Rachel had left on Sarah's phone that Sarah had saved. And the messages were super threatening. And on multiple occasions, Rachel said that she was going to kill Sarah. When asked about these. Yeah.

Okay. Now I'm back on the, oh, geez, this fucking case. Okay. Okay. When asked about these, Rachel said that Sarah had left her the same kind of messages, that she just hadn't saved them. The prosecutor shot back on this, something to the effect of, well, you're the only one who kept your word, aren't you? Oh, shit.

Oh, that's good. And Rachel said, yes. Well, I mean, prosecutor head or there. Yeah. Yeah. During their closing argument, the defense told the jury Sarah was the aggressor. There was no stopping her. She went looking for Rachel that night.

So the prosecution was a little bit worried after Rachel's time on the stand. I watched some of her testimony and she does come off like a very, you feel sympathy for her. She's very emotional. She seems, yeah, very distraught by what happened. And so the prosecution was worried that the jury might, you know, feel some sympathy for her. And so the prosecution was worried that the jury might, you know, feel some sympathy for her. And so the prosecution, right before they gave the case to the jury, they left them with listening to one of Rachel's threatening voicemails that she had left Sarah. OK, this is what it said. Please tell me, Sarah, why would you be a dumbass cunt and put a brand new picture of you and Josh at the beach on your MySpace? Seriously, I told you to watch your fucking back and not to fucking chill with him. I'm guaranteeing you that I'm going to fucking murder you.

I'm letting you know that now. Oh, shit. Shit. Okay, shit. Shit. Okay. Yep. Man, my opinion has flippity-flopped. It's a really tough case, isn't it? Yeah, it is.

Yeah. After this was played, the jury just like sat in dead silence. Well, yeah. And Rachel cried. Yeah, I mean. You told her you were going to murder her. I'm going to fucking murder you. I guarantee it.

And then you did. Oh, yikes. So for some reason, and I don't know what the reasoning is, I couldn't find it, but this was a jury of six people, not a jury of 12. It was five men and one woman. One woman. It was five men and one woman. One woman. It was five men and one woman. They deliberated. Is that a weird Florida thing?

It might be. I feel like we've covered a case where there were six jurors before. There's some weird bell ringing in my head. I can't remember if it's a weird Florida thing, if it's a weird something else. Who knows? Anyway. So they deliberated for two and a half hours. Is that all?

Mm-hmm. I know. I feel like I could go back and forth on this case for fucking days. Me too. They deliberated for two and a half hours. And they found Rachel guilty of second degree murder. Okay. At her sentencing, the defense asked for the minimum, which was 20 years.

And Sarah's mother got up and asked the judge to impose the maximum sentence, which would be life in prison. The judge imposed a sentence of 27 years. So he went somewhere in between. That's true. That is somewhere in between 20 and life. I just had to back up your math there. Thank you. The judge did say before imposing the sentence

that he believed Rachel had intended to kill Sarah that day. But Sarah found her. Yeah. I know, that's the hardest part. Sarah went there. Had Sarah not gone there, it wouldn't have fucking happened. I mean, at least that night.

Now, but Rachel did wait out in front of Javier's house. Oh, outside of Josh's house, yes, before that same night. That's true. Rachel did come to where Sarah was, and Sarah just didn't go outside while she was there.

See, if they'd gotten into an altercation there, sarah had died to me this would be a no-brainer yeah but the fact that sarah went and found her makes it a lot more complicated it does it really does i mean evidently not too complicated because the jury only deliberated for two and a half hours the defense commented on that later about why they think that is. They thought that the jury was too old. Like the youngest person on the jury was like 30 years old. And they said that they didn't think that that jury appreciated the dynamic of two teenage girls and that a younger jury would have taken the social media aspect, the love triangle

aspect of it more into consideration. aspect, the love triangle aspect of it more into consideration. What do you think of that? I think that could be. I don't understand. I don't understand like two and a half hours being able to come to a decision on this. I'm still so torn about it. Well, we'll get you some ointment. See, I'm wondering if part of it is like there were so many men on the jury.

Yeah, I think that's very possible, too. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Rachel has appealed her sentence based on the Stand Your Ground laws in Florida, but to date those appeals have all been denied. And at this point, her earliest release date is September of 2033. And that's the story of a teenage love triangle

what are you thinking i'm thinking about stand your ground uh-huh yeah i think that she well but she wasn't in her own home in In Texas, I don't think you have to be in your own home. This is in Florida. I'm sorry. In Florida, I don't think you have to be in your own home. No, I don't think you have to necessarily be in your own home, but, like, don't you kind of have to be in, like, your own neighborhood? No, I think you have to be protecting your own personal bubble that was under attack. I don't know, man!

This is a tough one. This is a good case. Yeah. The people on the internet seem to think, the consensus seems to be, from what I read, is that she should have been convicted, but of manslaughter, not murder. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think she got a lot of time for what is, to me, a pretty gray case. I agree. I agree. Sarah's father said he was okay with the outcome, but it was a tragedy on both sides. Dottie agrees. I don't know if you could hear that, everyone. I mean, yeah, I agree with that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. I can't. Also, the interwebs hate Josh. And everybody's super pissed that he couldn't be charged with a crime under this. But being a dirtbag is not against the law.

Yeah, absolutely not. Exactly. Sorry, Internet. You know, I hate douchebags. It's just a mixed gal. But yeah, can't do anything about that. Yeah. I don't know that I would have advocated for life in prison. No, I wouldn't have either.

Boy, that's easy to say when we're not parents. It sure is. But I think when you hear what she did, it would be really hard for me to argue life in prison for Rachel. Man, oh man, that was complicated. It is complicated. You know my solution? No love triangles. That's exactly right. It's too complicated.

That's exactly right. Oh, should we take some questions from our Discord now? Yeah, but how do people get in this Discord you speak of? All they have to do is sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level or higher, and you get access to this Discord, where it's like a 90s-style chat room. Everybody's just chitty-chatting the day away, talking about everything. Not just the podcast. We've got all kinds of different conversations going on in there. We do allow people to talk about things other than the podcast. That's exactly right.

We don't like it one bit. Yeah, Kristen sings that song every time. Hmm? Want to talk about me. Want to talk about I. Want to talk about number one. Oh, bye, me, bye. I want to think what I want, what I know, what I want, what I see.

I want to talk about you, you, you, you, usually. But occasionally, I want to talk about me. You are awful. Oh, you. You are awful. How dare you do that to me? You. God. We have never discussed that song, but you knew I would know that song.

Of course you would know it. God. Kristen has a soft spot for shitty country songs. I sure do. You know what I like about them? I don't like new things. Ever.

I don't like any new things. Don't like new friends. Don't like new foods. Don't like new anything. And all country songs kind of sound the same. At least the modern ones. They all kind of sound the same.

And so I can hear a new one and kind of like it. And so, yeah. There you go. Ooh. Bob Moss for Life wants to know, what's the best kind of sandwich bread? This is not a simple question. How dare you come at us with this complicated question? Because there's so much that depends.

Like, what kind of sandwich is it? Like, if it's a grilled cheese, white bread. It's your standard white bread. If you're doing, like, a lunch meat sandwich, I like a grainy bread with, like, some heft to it. Yeah. You like a sourdough? I do like a sourdough. Yeah.

Yeah. You like a sourdough? I do like a sourdough. Everybody, you should have seen how her face lit up at sourdough. But you know what? A sourdough PB&J? Terrible. So you're right.

You have to know what the same. You do. Yeah. The PB&J does not belong on sourdough. Do you know what I had for breakfast yesterday? I do know. It was an Uncrustable, wasn't it? It was not, but you're very close. What was it?

I don't have any Uncrustables right now. Oh, sorry. I made myself a toasted PB&J. It was so good because the peanut butter got melty. It's delicious. Did I tell you I've been doing those lately? No! That's so weird.

Are we fucking weirdos who are eating the same stuff? I thought I had come up with something groundbreaking when I toasted my PB&J. So I texted David yesterday and I was like, you'll never guess what I just made! We're really living on the edge. What a couple fucking weirdos. Pretty wild out here.

You never know what we're going to do next. Step on your dick says I'm getting married this Saturday. Any advice or words? No. No advice from us, but just congratulations! Brandy, I have tons of advice. Okay, what kind of marital advice do you want to give? Put the bread into the toaster.

And that's good advice whether you're married or single. That's correct. She can put that to use before Saturday and after Saturday. No, congratulations. Yes, congratulations. That's very exciting. Ooh, AJ Beers wants to know, Brandy, what's something you wish someone had told you

about being a mom to a young child? Ooh, that's a really complicated question. Oh, that's a really complicated question. Brandy didn't know that poop would come out of there. So no, I feel like I was prepared for the gross things like, yeah, I think people tell you this, but like you just can never be prepared for how fast it goes by. Like, yeah, yeah. She's already not like a little tiny baby. But also, all of the stages are so fun.

It's just like, I'm just constantly amazed by London. Like every day she learns something fucking new and I'll be like, hey, where's your ball? And she'll go get her fucking ball

and she's a year old. It's like, it blows my mind. Yeah. It is wild. It is. It's insane. And it's mind. Yeah. It is wild. It is. It's insane. And it's also just amazing.

Okay, I've got to tell you something on that note. Yeah. So I watched Henry a couple days ago. So Henry's too, he's obviously talking quite a bit and everything. But his grammar isn't great. If I may offer a criticism of that two-year-old. Absolutely. Okay.

And, you know, his conversation skills are pretty limited. What's that? Hungry, thirsty? Yeah. Okay. So I was watching him, and then I was going to take him back to Kyle and Jay's house for his nap. He fell asleep in the car with a book in his hands. So parked the car.

He's still asleep. I go around to his side of the car. He's still asleep. I took the book out of his hands, put it on top of the car so I could get him out of his car seat. And when I went back down to get him, he was all of a sudden wide awake. And he said in the clearest most adult voice what was that in my hands and i was like and she goes yeah he's at that stage where every now and like a fully formed sentence

yeah just like comes out of there and you never know what it's going to happen. I about crapped myself. Okay, London. So we read to London. So at night, she sits on my lap. I feed her a bottle right before she goes to bed, just milk. And then no booze in there. And then I read her a book.

I just realized I said no brandy to someone named Brandy. Man. Yeah. Brandy's there. Brandy, yeah. Vodka, no. No vodka. Yes, Brandy.

So then, like, when she's ready to go to sleep, like, David will take her up and he'll put her in bed. Like, we have a whole routine. She is very concerned about where her book goes when she goes up to bed so like i'll set her book down to the side while i'm like cuddling her and then david picks her up and she like will whine and point at the book until david picks it up and carries it upstairs with him she likes things put away that's exactly like sit clean She likes it clean. She gets that from her dad. Uh-huh.

She's like, can't be around this sloppy bitch. She's going to leave that book out. That's right. Oh, I don't even, okay, old dick gun Mari wants to know,

do you two remember how to pronounce my name? Of course I fucking do because I will never forget when I was like, what is this? Mare? Marie? I don't know. And then you told us it rhymes with safari and I will remember that until

the day that I die now. Isn't that so weird how certain things get lodged into your brain? Yes. Bidets for Brandy wants to know thoughts and feelings on charcuterie. My friends and I and my husband like to call it sharp coochie. We call it sharp coochie.

Yeah, which is much scarier. Here's my feeling on it. Oh, boy. Love a cracker. Love a hard cheese. Love the fruits. Love the nuts. Love the little, like, what about little beets? Do you like little beets? I like some little beets. Here's where I draw the fruits. Love the nuts. Love the little like what about little beets? Do you like little beets?

I like some little beets. Here's where I draw the line. I don't want to meet spread. Why not? I don't want to meet spread. That sounds disgusting. I don't want any spreadable meat on there. And I don't want any soft cheese.

And fuck you and your olives. Yeah, I was going to say, you're not into anything pickled. No. You little gherkins, get the fuck out of here. I love a shark coochie board. Yeah. And my favorite part is saying shark coochie board.

Skunch Off wants to know, are either of you planning to watch Lula Rich? Oh, sweet Lord. We just talked about this at lunch. Norman and I watched it almost the entire thing in one night. It is so damn good. I want to watch it. I have not watched it yet. You've got to watch it.

I'm obsessed with MLMsms i am obsessed with this i they make me so mad i know we've gone off on this before but they target women they target people of color they target poor people and they drain them of their money and wow this this is fascinating and i mean it's also hilarious because you get to see some of the patterns of the leggings. Oh, yeah. And these poor designers, they had to make like 100 new designs a day. So, obviously, they stole from other artists. Oh, yeah.

But also, like, I mean, there wasn't a lot of thought to, like, the placement of stuff. Oh, yeah. You got Santa coming out of somebody's ass. I've seen that one. Have you seen the Leaning Tower of Pizza? No. It looks like a placement of stuff. So like. Oh yeah. You got Santa coming out of somebody's ass. I've seen that one. Have you seen the Leaning Tower of Pizza? No. It looks like a big fat dong coming out of your crotch. I've seen like some Facebook posts and I've seen a Facebook post of Santa like descending

from someone's anus. From their chimney. That's right. No. So I'm very excited to watch it. I've not watched it yet. As I revealed on the bonus episode, I'm very invested in the LuLaRoe thing because of the sister wives. I remember.

Oh my gosh, I totally forgot. Okay, on the bonus episode, somebody asked us about our most embarrassing, like, dumb TV shows we watch, and Brandi's like, I don't really know. I don't really watch it. And then she goes into, how long did you talk about Sister Wives?

27 minutes? I mean, 10 minutes, probably. And, you know, there was evidence that clearly Brandi had done a deep dive on social media. It wasn't just like, oh, I watched an episode recently. It was a whole damn thing. So yeah, you said that there was evidence that clearly Brandi had done a deep dive on social media. It wasn't just like, oh, I watched an episode recently. It was a whole damn thing. So, yeah, you said that one of the sister wives.

Yeah, Mary, the first wife, was supporting her small business, her bed and breakfast, that was in her family's historical home, by selling leggings on the Internet. Interesting. She was supporting a real business with a fake business. That's correct. I guarantee you it didn't go well. I'm very concerned for her. People were spending between five and ten grand to get their startup kids.

Yes. Okay. I know you don't do TikTok, but you've got to get on TikTok because there's all kinds of stories about MLMs on there, and you would fucking love it. Okay. It's people who have like escaped the MLM. Yeah. And like one I was just watching was this woman on TikTok who was talking.

Of course, it was on TikTok. I just told you that. Anyway, it's this woman who sold LuLaRoe and she was like, I had ten thousand dollars in inventory at all times because they tell you the more you have, the more you can sell. I spent every weekend going to pop-up shops and I sold them out of my trunk and I took them on vacation

and pushed around a little cart that said leggings. Like, yeah. Oh, God. She took over her life and she'd make shit off of it. Of course not. Anyway, no, we haven't heard of it.'s lula roe what's an mlm

wait what okay someone else asked about lula rich it's patrick star the truck clit and she says i fell fell for Isagenix when I was at my most insecure about my weight at like 18 and my boss made like a thousand dollars off of me. Isagenix, I don't remember that one. Yeah. It sounds familiar. I mean, it's all bullshit.

Yes. Oh yeah, their fucking catchphrase is the art of well-being. Okay. Okay. You and I both love it. When you go to a website and you read a bunch of stuff and you still have no idea what the company does. Currently, they're peddling their collagen elixir.

Oh. It's a blend of responsibly sourced marine collagen peptides. So you can glow radiantly and live beautifully. What if we started out making fun but then we got sucked in? I'm sorry, we have to quit the podcast. We are now

balls deep in an MLM. That's right. Dick Gunn wants to know, since the SpaceX launch is tonight with four civilians going into space for three days, if you were given the chance to go to space, would you do it? Would you go to space? Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. I'm scared.

And it's not even an opportunity. Right. I'm getting scared as if you're like, well, I've got a rocket out back. Okay, what if Elon Musk showed up at your door and was like, I'm taking you into space tonight aboard my penis-shaped rocket? Why just me? I mean. No, no, no. He's got crimes there, too. And just me? I mean. No, no, no. He's got, you know,

Grimes is there too and it's all, it's a cool thing. Oh God. I'm the lamest person. I'm not fucking going up in some dick spaceship. I'm just not.

Only if it's vagina shaped, right? No, I'm thinking this is too. You're thinking of Kristen McCullough,ough aren't you i am me too me too wasn't she from around here or no i don't know we had a school named after her around here but i don't think she was from around here um well it feels close yeah it feels closer than outer space. Yeah. I don't think I need, at this point, I don't think I need to go to space yet. I'm not, you know, totally closed off to the idea, you know, as we get down the road.

I feel like I'm. What? What? I feel like somebody talked about the vaccine. I just don't know that there's been enough studies done yet. I'm not saying I'm an anti-vaxxer. I'm just saying, where did this come from and how long have they been testing it? I'm not anti-space shit.

Exactly. That's what I fucking feel like right now. Good news. It's not the same. Exactly. That's what I fucking feel like right now. Good news. It's not the same brand. No. Yeah. The only thing. Here's the real reason I would go. Is if like other people found out that I was offered and then they'd be like, you didn't go. You know, here's what I will tell you that I would do in a heartbeat. What? You know who is very interested in space travel lance bass if lance bass came and was like i've got us two seats on

spacex you and me we're gonna have a great time uh-huh we'll make tiktoks i'd be like fuck yes lance bass let's go to space. Okay, hear me out. What if you get to his spaceship and it's very clear that Lance Bass and Lance Bass alone has been the one working on this spaceship. No, definitely not. And I'm getting on that spaceship. It looks like a big

Jiffy Pop bag. And he's like, I know you believe in me, Brandy. So it looks like Balloon Boys? Yes. Yes. And he's like, I know you believe in me, Brandy. So it looks like balloon boys. Yes. Yes. But hear me out. You're going up there with Lance Bass.

You do make a good point. Yeah. And then the headline in all the newspapers would be Lance Bass dies. And then like 14 paragraphs down, he was also there with a podcaster. Little known podcaster. Little known podcasters. Brandy, and then they'd spell your name wrong. Pardon My Tits and Makeup asks, What is the silliest TV show finale you've cried while watching? This last week I finished The Good Place and sobbed.

My husband walked in and thought something horrific had happened because I was such a mess. I bawled like a baby when I watched the finale of The Good Place. Oh, really? Yes. See, I didn't watch that show all the way through. Bawled like a fucking baby. So I respect you. Pardon my tits and makeup.

I cry during a lot of stuff. I cry during everything. So David always looks at me and he's like, you're a wimp. I mean. Have you cried during a Survivor finale? Okay, here's what I've caught myself doing. I have caught myself smiling at the TV. Like you're so proud of them.

During the family visit. Yep. Which is just embarrassing. I can't fully rule out that I've cried. But I don't think I have. I may. I remember being very touched by the one. Oh, shit.

I did cry in Survivor. Okay, well, I'm sorry. This is a spoiler from like 10 years ago yeah but one of the people at this insane tribal council outed someone else as trans yeah and it was just so shocking yeah and upsetting that, yeah, I cried. I cried during that, too. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I might have cried during, and I likely just, like, welled up.

Yeah. There was a winner. You were, like, really tough. Yeah, you were tough. There was a winner whose mom died before like they did the final reveal

and he said he felt like he had won so he told his mom that he had won right before she died yeah yeah

I might have welled up she says she almost wells up telling the story. Come on. I'm not like a pussy or anything. Yeah. Really tough.

Really tough. Doll Socks wants to know, Brandy, do you like puzzles of the jigsaw variety? What do you fucking think? I fucking love jigsaw puzzles. In fact, David and I just got a new puzzle that we're going to do together. It is... I'm sorry, Elon. I can't go to space with you.

I just got a new puzzle. That's great. Do you want to know what the puzzle is? No. I'm going to tell you anyway. I knew you would tell me anyway. It is the floor plan of the Overlook Hotel from The Shining. My God.

My God. You going to frame that puppy? You going to glue all the pieces together? No. Okay. Maybe. Yeah. Pieces together?

No. Okay. Maybe. Yeah. Kat Rihanna 176 says, have either of you gotten in trouble for something you've ever said on the podcast? No. No. Maybe.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. Of course. Yes. We say whatever we want. Old and decrepit 25 year old says, Brandy, we always hear about Kristen's dogs. How are yours? Mine are doing good.

They have had an adjustment period to the new house because they have lived their whole lives in a place with no stairs. And now we have stairs. That is really weird. It is really weird. And I have elderly dogs. So Oliver is the bulldog and he's seven, which is getting up there for a bulldog. And then Barker is an Italian greyhound, so just like a little tiny miniature greyhound. And he's 13.

So, yeah, it took a minute for them to adjust to the stairs. They've done well with that. And now they're doing pretty good. They're great with London. Like Like, London loves them so much. Even if you just say your dogs to her. Like, if you say that to her, she laughs and smiles. And they're so good with her. She lays all over Oliver.

She can't lay on Barker because she's, at this point, probably five times bigger. Exactly. Yes, Barker. He is the tiniest little dog. He's just skin and bones. Yes. It looks like he hasn't been fed ever. It, Barker. He is the tiniest little dog. He's just skin and bones. Yes. It looks like he hasn't been fed ever. It's really upsetting.

He has. He eats regularly. But yeah, they're doing really good. Thank you for asking. Also, Barker's like nearly blind. So the stairs were really tough for him to master. I didn't know he was nearly blind. Yeah.

Oh, poor Barker. Yeah, he's. Well, no wonder he's so skittish. Yeah, exactly he was nearly blind. Yeah. Oh, poor Barker. Yeah, he's. Well, no wonder he's so skittish. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. He was already skittish before. Yeah. And just adds to it. Yes. Bidets for Brandy asks, are there any cases you didn't enjoy covering? So mine was a case I did recently. What was it? The Maria Ridolf case. Marie Ridolf was the one. I thought I was researching one case, and it turned into a very different case. That's the exoneration case I did where the guy was totally fucking guilty.

Oh, okay, okay, yeah. All those years later. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she went missing when she was seven. Yes. And was found murdered. I love that case. And then they thought the guy in the neighborhood had done it, all these, and the deathbed confession. Like, I thought that was going to be this great case about justice all these years later.

Oh. And then that turned out not to really be what it was. It was just a huge fucking bummer for me. I loved that case. It was a good case, but I did not enjoy it. You didn't enjoy covering it. I did not enjoy it because it just was not

what I thought I was getting into. Signing up for it. Yes. Yeah, I've done the same thing. It's the first case that I've done that really affected my mood.

Of all the terrible shit you've covered, that's the first one? It's because typically I know what I'm going into. I know. I'm prepared. I'm going to go into this and this is what this case is.

And that case turned out very different. Okay. Yeah, I've definitely not enjoyed cases that I've covered. Oh, yeah. Even though I do a great job covering. And people all love them. Exactly. And we've never gotten a complaint.

Never once. Double stuff is too much stuff. Once when I was getting a haircut, the stylist working on the person next to me told her not to wash the ends of her hair, but just up by her scalp. Is this normal? Is this like not washing your legs in the shower? Also, do you wash your legs in the shower? Are people not washing their legs in the shower? Also, do you wash your legs in the shower? Are people not washing their legs in the shower? I wash my legs in the shower.

Are you not supposed to? I also wash the ends of my hair. Who's not washing the ends of their hair? Well, don't you think that was a specialized case? Well, I wonder, like, is there something specific about her color? Like, here's the instance. That's what I immediately thought of. Like, what's the instance that I would tell someone that?

Yeah. If I had done, like, a vibrantly colored ombre on someone. Yeah. So, like, we're talking about the ends of their hair are a purple, a pink, whatever. Yeah. A vivid color. I would tell them, when you're shampooing, you know, just lather up at the roots and mid-shafts. Don't lather on your ends because that will make your color last longer.

But that's not true for, like, regular regular color or like, you know, standard hair. If you don't have a vibrant color on the ends of your hair, please lather them is what I'm saying. I'm concerned about that. Well, you have said many times that like people are not washing their hair enough or like or, like, not really scrub-a-dub-dubbing enough. That's right. That's right. You've got to get that buildup off of there. Everyone, she's shaking her head.

I'm very distraught by this advice. I need more information. We have thoroughly upset her. I think we need to move on to Supreme Court Inductions. I think you're right. And, you know, you get inducted onto this podcast by signing up for our Patreon at the $7 level. You get all kinds of benefits, too many to name, if you ask me. That's right.

But one of them is getting inducted to the Supreme Court. And we read your names and your favorite cookies. And I feel like I'm about to pee my pants, but I'm going to just... Power through. Power through. We're doing it. We're doing it. Oh, I'm not there yet. Oh, okay.

Jill Beasley. Snickerdoodles. Maya Lewick. Salty chocolate chip cookies. Shannon Corona. Snickerdoodles. Ashley Francis. Oatmeal scotchies.

Ayesa Keys. Oreos dipped in peanut butter. Yes, just like the parent trap. Crystal Fairchild. Chinese New Year cookies. Alejandra Contreras Nava. Cookie dough. Michaela Betts.

My dad's butterscotch white chocolate chip cookies. All right. Michelle Wong. Snicka, snicka, snicka doodles. That's what she wrote and she made me say it. Pterodactyl. Mega stuffed Oreos. No, that's way too much.

It's all the stuff. Isn't that triple stuffed? It's a lot. It's like, it's a lot of stuff. I've never had a mega stuff personally. Beth Questad. Chocolate chip caramel pretzel. Sarah Merriam.

What? Nanayomi bar? Okay, where is there a Y sound in there? The I? Does that turn into a Y magically? Nanayomi? Yeah, exactly. You're right, you're right.

It's not as easy as I was trying to make it seem. All right. All right. I am an asshole. You are right. It's not as easy as I was trying to make it seem. All right. All right. I am an asshole. You are right. Morgan Jefferson. Peanut butter chocolate chip. Megan Farrow.

Thin Mints. Deanna Brown. No-bake chocolate drop cookies. I fucking love those. Amanda Pierce. Salted caramel Oreos. Gemma Chambers. Everyone thinks it's boring, but digestives are my favorite.

Oh, I was told they're like graham crackers in the U.S., but I Googled them and I'm not convinced. Yeah, they're not quite graham crackers. You've had these? Yeah. I will say it's a pretty boring choice for favorite cookie. Is it like a shortbread situation? No, it's really hard to describe. It's just kind of a plain, hard cookie.

It's good. I don't know about my favorite cookie, Gemma. I don't know. Jennifer Zuccarelli. Cinnamon roll cookies. Melissa Felissa. Chocolate chip cookies made using Brandy's secret recipe. Autumn.

Raspberry roo galosh. What? I feel like people are making these more difficult Recipe. Autumn. Raspberry roo-galosh? How do you, what? I feel like people are making these more. These are getting more and more complicated. Because they know you're reading cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much.

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When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from a Vanity Fair article by Mark Bowden titled, The Body in Room 348. An episode of 2020 titled I Know What You Did, as well as reporting from the Beaumont Enterprise, the Southeast Texas Record and the Chippewa Falls.

I got my just the Chippewa Falls directly. People Falls called you. Oh, my God. That's enough. I got my article. Oh no. Did you misspeak? I got my info

from an article by Lane DeGregory for the Tampa Bay Times. An episode of Snapped, articles for CBS News, True Crime Daily, the Tampa Tribune, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Stop laughing. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.