Let's Go To Court! - 189: The Secret Serial Killer & a Mother

Episode Date: September 29, 2021

It was the summer of 2004, and Charlie and Teri Brandt needed to get someplace safe. With Hurricane Ivan headed for their home in Big Pine Key, the couple went to Orlando to stay with their niece, Michelle Jones. Michelle was thrilled to have them, but toward what should have been the end of their visit, she stopped returning phone calls. So did Teri and Charlie. Finally, one of Michelle’s friends went to the house to check on everyone. She was horrified by what she discovered. Then Kristin tells us about the evening of February 17, 2007. Melissa Lucio was in a panic. Her two-year-old daughter Mariah had fallen asleep, but wasn’t waking up. Paramedics arrived at Lucio’s apartment, and attempted to revive the little girl. But she remained unresponsive. As moments ticked by, the paramedics grew more and more concerned. The girl’s body was covered in bruises. It looked like she’d been badly beaten. Melissa’s other children told the EMT’s that Mariah had recently fallen down the stairs, but medical personnel feared something much more sinister had occurred.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary, “State of Texas vs. Melissa” Wrongful Conviction podcast episode, “Melissa Lucio” “Divided Federal Appeals Court Reinstates Death Sentence for Texas Mother of Child Who May Have Died in Accidental Fall,” Death Penalty Information Center “Did Melissa Lucio, the First Hispanic Woman on Death Row in Texas, Kill Her Daughter? An Uneven New Documentary Raises More Questions Than Answers.” by Roxanna Asgarian for Texas Monthly “Doctor testifies abuse was ‘worst’ he’s seen,” by Allen Essex for the Valley Morning Star “Mother found guilty of murder,” by Allen Essex for the Valley Morning Star “Detective testifies in Lucio trial,” by Allen Essex for the Valley Morning Star In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Deadly Obsession” episode 48 Hours “Charlie Brandt Killed His Mom At 13 — Then Walked Free To Butcher His Wife As An Adult” by William DeLong, allthatsinteresting.com “Deadly rage brewed in ‘quiet kid’” by Robert Perez and Melissa Harris, The Orlando Sentinel “Killer tied to ’89 death—wife suspected him all along” by Gary Taylor, The Orlando Sentinel YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a mother.

And I'll be talking about a secret serial killer. Question mark? I mean, it can't be too big a secret if you're talking about it on this podcast. Brandi, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. I had a waffle for lunch. It had bananas and strawberries on top and blueberries inside and then whipped cream all over it. Yeah, it's delicious. How was your lunch? Shut up. Shut up. Everybody. Here's the deal. Every couple years, I order a Western omelet, sometimes referred to as a Denver omelet.

I always think it sounds good. Yeah. Then I get it. And you're like, mmm. This onion omelet. Yeah. It's so good. It tastes terrible every time.

But I have no one to blame but myself. That's right. Don't cry for me. I feel like that's something that would never happen to you. Well, I just wouldn't order that. Well, but you would think I would stop. Yeah. Yeah, I'm never going to be like, ooh, gosh.

Really have a hankering for an onion omelet. But, okay, are there things that sound good to you that I don't like? Yes. Pickles. Yeah, you will try a pickle. Yes, pickles sound good to me.

In theory, I should like pickles. I love vinegar. Never like a pickle ever. Well, this is fascinating, and this is what people come for. Okay. Foods that we have known. Everyone's devastated for me and my omelet. I don't think anybody cares about you and your omelet.

Do we want to talk about what happened at the restaurant? Go ahead. Okay. So we were seated. No one, no server came for an extended amount of time. 84 years. A very long time. No one appeared to take our order.

Finally, the woman who sat us came to another table and was like, your server will be right with you. And so as she was walking away, like, we were talking about leaving. Yeah, yeah, because we'd been there for a long time. And I was like, could you please send our server over as well? And she was like, oh, yeah. Well, and she walked away, and she confronted another server right next to our table and was like, did you seat them? Meanwhile, this is the woman who seated us.

It was so uncomfortable. It was so awkward. And she was like, well, I'll take them, but, I mean, in the future when you seat someone, you need to write it down. It's like, bitch, you seated us. And you're yelling at him. It was so awkward.

It was. And part of me wanted to just say to her politely, like, hey, you sat us. But, like, what would she have added to my omelet? I don't know. Could have improved it. She was very polite as our server. Well, yeah, but I mean. She's very rude to her co-worker.

She basically spanked that young man right in front of us. And I know that's your kink, but it's not mine. I was going to jump right into my story, but you know what? I'm a business cat. So right now I'm going to talk about our Patreon. And you know what we have? What do we have? A fresh bonus episode.

Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. What did we cover? It'll be out by now, right? Yeah, it's going to be out by now. All right, great. I mean, unless something terrible has happened. Uh-oh. Spoiler alert.

Did something terrible happen to us? I don't think so. I don't think anything terrible has happened. We've already recorded it, so we did the hard part. Okay, yeah. What did we cover? You covered Enslaved to Entrepreneur. It was a very good story.

Biddy Mason. And you guys can hear Brandy's disappointment at the beginning when she hears that it's going to be a story about slavery. But don't worry. It gets better. Yes. She gets through it. You'll get through it, too. I promise you. It's a crazy story about slavery. But don't worry. It gets better. Yes. You know, she gets through it. You'll get through it, too. I promise you.

It's a crazy story. Yeah. And then I talked about a terrible murder. Oh, God. You did. Yeah. But it was quite interesting. And very interesting court stuff.

Quite interesting. Yes. Well, is this the best ad you've ever heard? This is a terrible ad. But if you'd like to hear this episode, head on over to our Patreon. At the $5 level, you get that new episode plus 26 others to binge immediately. Yes. Immediately.

Immediately. And you get access to the Discord where you can shitty chat the day away in a 90s style chat room. We've got other perks, too. If you're a baller, you just go up to that $10 level. Bob Moss. Okay, well, that, too. You get episodes a day early, ad free,

you get 10% off on merch, you get inducted into the podcast, you get a sticker, you get a little card with our autographs, you get all the other stuff we've mentioned, and that's, oh wait, and a Zoom call. Zoom call. Yeah, hey, there you go. What more do you want? Yeah, and if you want to see our previous Zoom call, we just did one.

It's on our Patreon. Watch us make mandelflarn. Okay, so here's the real story. We're doing that after this episode. Yeah, so we don't know how it turned out. We don't know yet how it turns out. I'm guessing badly. I'm guessing not good.

Anyway, yeah, sign up for our Patreon. It's a good time. It's a good time. All right. Yeah. All right, you time. It's a good time. All right. Yeah. All right, you want to talk about a secret serial killer? You have intrigued me. I'll give you that.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Most of this comes from a 48 Hours episode called Deadly Obsession. Ooh, okay. Which is just really vague. It is very vague, but that's fine. I don't really even know that it pertains to this case.

And, of course, we'll note that I did not watch this episode. You weirdo. I read it. Okay. Where do you even find these transcripts? Online. I just, I don't, like, go looking for them. They find me. You sound like a guy with a porn addiction. It's just, like, it comes to me. I just, I don't like go looking for them. They find me. You sound like a guy with a porn addiction.

It's just like it comes to me. It's just out there on the internet and it's free. Also, shout out to Robert Perez and Melissa Harris for their article in the Orlando Sentinel. Must be in Florida. It's definitely in Florida, which had some really good information on this case, which I did not see anywhere else. So, okay. Top notch reporting there. It was September 2nd, 2004, and Hurricane Ivan was headed toward the Florida Keys.

Charlie Brandt and his wife, Terry, were used to this kind of thing, though. Charlie had lived in Florida for more than 30 years, and they knew that the impending storm meant that they need to batten down the hatches, as they say, and head inland. So that's exactly what they did. They boarded up the doors, the windows, everything. What? It's from something.

Do you know what that's from? No. We're at the Comfort Inn, room 112. I love you, Frank. It's from old school. Oh, God. Okay. I thought it was going to be some terrible thing.

No. All right. So they boarded up the doors and the windows, and then they headed to Orlando to stay with Terry's niece, Michelle Jones, who was like this super successful television executive with the Golf Channel. Big in Orlando, I guess. That's where they're based because there's lots of golfing going on in Florida. You heard it here first. Okay.

Your knowledge is truly limitless. That's right. 37-year-old Michelle was super close with her aunt Terry and uncle Charlie. They were only about 10 years older than her. Oh. Charlie. They were only about 10 years older than her. Oh. And she was super thrilled that they had taken her up on her offer for them to stay with her while the hurricane passed.

So much so that she wanted to have like a big get together with all of her friends while they were there. She had this beautiful home. It had a pool and a hot tub. It was perfect for entertaining. Michelle's friend, Lisa, later recalled, 20 minutes after they got there, I got a phone call from Michelle. She said, Terry and Charlie are here. Where are you?

Why aren't you over here? We're all hanging out. She was just very excited that they were there. I gotta say, I've always wanted, I mean, can you imagine having a house that had a pool and a hot tub?

I'll settle for the hot tub. I know. I want a hot tub so... That's like on my vision board for my life. Norm thinks they're so tacky, and I know they're tacky, but I want one. I'm so bad.

I mean, you think about it. I'm pretty tacky all the time. Why stop it? Why stop it? Why draw the line at tanning beds? Or tanning beds? I can't imagine. Can you imagine if all of a sudden I get roasted?

Can you set up a tanning bed and a hot tub? Oh, man. You're going to have to go, you're going to have to, like, join a hair band? Yes, exactly. Anyway, back to my story. Oh, excuse me. Yes, but having, that's the dream, right? I think it is.

I think so, too. I recently found a house that, so David and I are like kind of like in a temporary house right now because the housing market is so crazy. And so we're looking for like the, our future home. I found a house that I loved. It had a pool. Oh, my God. And a hot tub. And it was like the perfect location. And it sold in like. It had a pool. Oh, my God. And a hot tub. It was like the perfect location.

And it sold in like. 12 minutes. Yes. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's.

That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. the house was made for me and somebody else bought it. Sorry, Brady. Where was it? It was like in North Olathe, like almost like right off of right where, you know.

Right where you want to be. Right where I want to be. How much? It wasn't. It was like $400,000. Well, yeah, that got scooped up real quick. Boy. It's funny because, okay, nobody fucking cares.

But I almost didn't even like, you know, I just like peruse the listings every day. And I almost didn't look at the inside of the house because I thought the outside of the house was kind of boring. Like the front of it. And then I was like, when I got to the inside, I was like, be still my heart. Anyway, moving on. The one that got away. Okay, here we go. Yes.

So Michelle was super fond of Terry and Charlie, especially Terry. Terry was her mother's sister. And so she just really wanted to share them with her friends while they were in town. So they made plans for multiple get togethers during the nearly two weeks that Charlie and Terry stayed with her while the hurricane went through. And that included a farewell dinner on the 13th of September, just before they planned to return to the Keys. On that day, though, Michelle called her friends and suggested that they not come over. She said her aunt and uncle were fighting, that somebody had too much to drink and there'd been some kind of squabble. It wasn't anything big, but it would just be best for it, like for them to call it a night and not have a big thing. at a night and not have a big thing.

Right. Meanwhile, back in North Carolina, where Michelle's mother, Mary Lou, lived, she was trying to get a hold of Michelle to find out, like, how the trip was wrapping up or were Terry and Charlie getting packed up okay? Were they headed back? She and Michelle were super close. They talked, like, every day. But Michelle didn't pick up her phone on Monday night. And she didn't call her back on Tuesday.

So she called her again Tuesday night and again, no answer. She left a voicemail. By Wednesday night, when she still hadn't heard back from Michelle, she was getting pretty worried. Yeah. So she called Michelle's friend, Debbie, who lived like in the same area Michelle did. And she asked if she'd mind going over to the house and checking just to make sure that everything was OK. By this point, you know, Terry and Charlie should be gone. It would be just Michelle at home. So she's just, you know. Yeah. Wanted to check and make sure everything was OK. And so Debbie was like, of course, no problem.

I'll head on over there. And Mary Lou stayed on the phone with Debbie as she got to Michelle's house and started to walk up the driveway. Debbie said that she had a weird feeling as she arrived at the house. And maybe that was just, you know, kind of something that just built up some anxiety about the situation. But she had a key to Michelle's house. Like she would, if Michelle had to travel or something like that, she'd go water her plants. I don't really know. So she tried the front door, but it didn't open. It was like bolted from the inside. And so she walked around the back and around the back of the house was a garage and the garage had a door that was like almost entirely glass. And so she could see through it.

And as soon as the garage door came into view, she saw something shocking. Inside the garage, she could see Charlie hanging from a raft. Oh, no. Police obviously were on the scene shortly, and the lead investigator, Rob Hemmert, said that he was not prepared for what he found inside the house. He had to basically steal himself for what he was about to see. They opened up the garage, which was like sweltering.

And there was Charlie hanging from the rafters. He was hanging from a bed sheet that was tied around his neck. And it was clear that Charlie had died by suicide. had died by suicide because of the sweltering conditions in the garage. He was already in an advanced stage of decomposition. Wow. And then he entered Michelle's home. As I mentioned, this was just a beautiful home. And this is what this detective said of the house, Detective Rob Himmert.

He said it was a nice home. It had this great feminine feel, all these nice decorations. And then there was the smell, the smell of death. Terry was on the living room couch, slumped over in a pool of her own blood. She'd been stabbed seven times in the chest. In her bedroom, Michelle's body was laid out on the bed. She'd been decapitated. Oh, my God.

Disemboweled. Oh. Her breasts had been removed and her heart had been removed. Holy shit. Her head was placed next to her body on the bed. Oh my God. Mm-hmm. So these bodies were found inside a secured house. It had been locked from the inside. Mm-hmm. So the lead detective was like, there's only one possible conclusion here. Charlie Brandt had murdered his wife and niece. Right.

And then hung him. Oh, my God. That scared the shit out of me. I wonder if they can hear that on the recording. I don't know. Okay. In case we decide to leave this in. Brandy, are you okay?

That scared the shit. Did I jump? Oh, yeah. That scared the shit out of me. The dogs went nuts barking at something. Had a key moment in the story. Oh, my God. So the only possible conclusion here is that Charlie Brandt had murdered his wife and niece and then hung himself in the garage.

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So Detective Hemmert worked to kind of piece the events together and figure out what had been going on. It all started, it seems, on the evening of September 13th. They had had dinner that night. Charlie had cooked some type of fish. It was clear that they had eaten. They'd had some drinks. There was wine bottles. But then there was that call that Michelle had made after dinner. And she told her friends, you know, not to come over. They interviewed Michelle's friend, Lisa, who was supposed to come over that night. And she said that Michelle had called her and said that Terry and Charlie had been arguing and they weren't in the best of company. And she said, you know, don't even bother coming over. Yeah.

Yeah. And she said, you know, don't even bother coming over. Yeah. Yeah. Detective Hemmert also learned that that was the day that Charlie and Terry were supposed to leave. Their bags were packed. They were sitting in the front hall. But then Charlie had insisted apparently on staying another night.

How'd they know that? They must have gotten that information from a friend. I'm guessing. Yeah. Michelle must have told a friend that or possibly her mom. This was kind of a red flag to the detective because there was no reason for them to stay another night. The hurricane had moved all the way through by now. There was no reason. And he says that he believes that Charlie

insisted on staying that other night because he had this planned. Michelle was killed and then meticulously mutilated with the knives

from her own kitchen. Terry had been killed quickly. The stab wounds were, like, the autopsy showed that all seven wounds had been very quickly, what's the word that I'm looking for here? Executed. Yeah, I guess. There's just not a great word there. Anyway, and she died very quickly.

It's just not a great word. No. Anyway, and she died very quickly. By comparison, Michelle had only one stab wound and then all of this had been done to her. So it is probable that her death was not quick. This death announcement to Mary Lou that not only had her daughter been brutally murdered and mutilated, her sister had been murdered as well. And her brother-in-law of 17 years had been the one to do it. Right. She said she just couldn't believe it. She couldn't accept that this man that she thought she knew had done this. It was incomprehensible to her. Had like Charlie had been a bit of an oddball, but no one would ever describe him as threatening or scary or even aggressive in any way.

He was pretty quiet. He was reserved. Some people would call him eccentric, but not. Never aggressive, never threatening, never scary. Yeah. Yeah. Never aggressive, never threatening, never scary. Yeah.

Yeah. Everybody thought that Charlie and Terry had been, like, the perfect couple. They balanced each other so well. Terry was a bit of a free spirit. She was, like, very happy-go-lucky. Like, nothing seemed to bother her. Friends described them as being, like, the most in love that they'd ever seen a couple. Terry's closest friend, Melanie Fetcher, said,

if my husband could love me one third of the amount that Charlie loved Terry, I'd be the luckiest woman in the world. Wow. Yeah. This was truly shocking. Melanie, who was very close to the couple, said she never saw any red flags. She never detected any problems in the marriage. Terry never confided in her that there was anything odd going on.

She never saw Charlie get angry, didn't know him to have a temper at all. This was very just out of character for him. And no one saw this coming at all. This was very just out of character for him and no one saw this coming at all. You have me on the edge of my seat. Yeah.

Oh that was cocky. I just think this is a crazy case. There was one person who came forward. Ex-wife. And knew that Charlie had another side to him. It was an adult child?

It was a secret that his family had been hiding since 1971. No. That person was his sister, Angela. So after this all happens, Angela is supposed to come to this police briefing where everybody is coming to like get up to date on this situation, but she didn't show up. She sat in the parking lot and then like called and was like, I can't do it. And so Detective Hemmert came out and talked to her, and she was like, there's something I have to tell you. And that's when she let him in on this secret that this family had been keeping for three decades.

It all started in January of 1971. At the time, Angela was 15, Charlie was 13, and they lived with their parents and their two younger sisters in Fort Wayne, Indiana. It was just after 9 p.m. on this January night, and Angela was just like sitting in her room reading a book before she went to bed like she always did. And then she heard like a commotion down the hall. At first it just started as noise and then she could make out her mom yelling something and then her dad yelling. It sounded like Charlie don't or Charlie stop. So what was going on down the hall was that Charlie and Angela's parents, Ilsa and Herbert, were in their bathroom. Ilsa was eight months pregnant.

She was relaxing in the tub. And Herbert was standing at the mirror shaving when Charlie walked into the bathroom with a gun drawn. Oh, my God. And he was 13? Mm-hmm. He shot his father in the back. He immediately fell to the ground. And then he stood over his mother.

Oh, my God. And shot several rounds into her. What? Killing her and the baby. Angela heard all of this from down the hall. The last thing she heard her mom say was, Angela, call the police. But she didn't have any time. Before she knew it, Charlie was standing in her room.

Oh, my God. Pointing a gun at her. He pulled the trigger. And it didn't go off. It was out of bullets. Oh, my God. Is this a movie? It's, oh.

The next thing she knew, Charlie had like ditched the gun and was on top of her trying to strangle her. Angela recalled that she looked in his eyes and it was like he was in a trance. His eyes were like glazed over. And she just looked him in the eyes and started telling him, I love you. Charlie, I love you. Don't do this. I love you.

And she said the glazed look disappeared and he stopped. It was as if he came out of a trance. She pushed her brother off. He sat there. He calmed down. And Angela ran out of the house. She was like bloody. Her nightgown was torn.

And she ran through the snow to their neighbor's house and pounded on the door. The neighbor's 16-year-old daughter came to the door. But by the time, it took this 16-year-old girl, Sandy, so long to come to the door that Angela was like, I don't have time to wait for this. I'm going to the next house. She ran off. So when Sandy opened the door, it was Charlie standing there. But he was super calm. He looked at Sandy and he said, I just shot my mom and dad.

Oh, my gosh. So obviously police came to the scene. Herbert was taken to the hospital. He survived the gunshot to his back. And as they were like wheeling him through the hospital, he was like, Charlie's such a good boy. He's such a good boy. Oh, wow. This was a shock to everyone. Neighbors, friends of the family, everyone said they were super close. And Charlie A huge shock. Police didn't really know what to make of this or how to handle this.

Charlie was 13 years old. And so they started with like a psychological evaluation. The courts ordered that Charlie undergo three separate psychological evaluations. One of the psychiatrists who examined him was Ronald Pantsner, which I really enjoy that last name. Actually, I think it's Pantsner, but it's spelled with a C, P-A-N-C-N-E-R, Pantsner. Okay. So he came to the same conclusion as the other two psychiatrists who examined Charlie. And it was that there was no sign of any mental illness in Charlie. He didn't show any signs or symptoms of any serious mental illness. He did really well in school.

He didn't get into trouble. He answered all of their questions very thoroughly. It didn't make any sense to. And they all three separately came to this same conclusion. So what'd they make of it? So one theory was that this incident stemmed from something that happened recently with the family dog. This is bizarre. Okay. So the day of the murder, the shooting, the family had returned home to Indiana from this annual hunting trip that they went on in Florida.

During that hunting trip, Herbert had made the difficult decision to put down the family dog. He was old and sick and wasn't doing well on the trip. And because the 70s were fucking wild, he chose to do this by shooting the dog on the family vacation. Oh, my God. Mm hmm. Yeah. So that was like the best thing that these psychiatrists could come up with. Like, maybe he was triggered by that.

Right. But there were no signs of any serious mental illness present in Charlie. Oh, wow. The day after the shootings, Charlie stood before a judge. This is when those examinations were ordered. And he told the judge that he didn't have any explanation as to why he did what he did. He said, I didn't really want to do it. It was like I was sort of programmed.

I hesitated, but the next thing I knew, I had shot them. It was like I was forced to do it. I couldn't really control myself. In May of 1971, after those psychological examinations were done, a six-person grand jury was convened to hear all of the evidence in the case. And they determined that Charlie Brandt was not criminally responsible.

Indiana law at that time said that children younger than 14 could not understand the consequences of their decisions. So the grand jury recommended that Charlie should receive psychiatric treatment but not be charged with a crime. Wow. However, the grand jury did issue an ominous warning. They wrote, Is that not... That's very disturbing. Yes! Yes!

So Charlie was sent to a psychiatric hospital where he stayed for a year. A year? For one year. A year? For one year. Okay. You know how I feel. I don't like it when juveniles are treated like adults.

But that is... For one year. Wild. Yeah. And then at that point, his father asked the court for his release, and they were like, all right, if you... Yeah, if you want... If you want him, you got him. This is making me feel a lot of things. Yeah, if you want them, you got them.

This is making me feel a lot of things. I know. So Charlie was released and Herbert packed up the family. And they left Indiana and headed for Florida. And they never talked about the shooting ever. That is some 1970s bullshit. He never

asked Charlie, hey, why'd you do that? Why'd you kill your mother? What was going on? He never asked for an apology. Nothing happened. He just was like, hey, welcome back to the family. We're going to pretend that whole thing never happened. Not only that, but he told Angela, the older sister. Uh-huh.

Don't you ever say anything? They were never to speak of it again. The two younger sisters were never to know about this. They were too young to remember it. So they were just never to speak of it. And so they just like carried on with their lives. Wow.

What could go wrong with a plan like that? So all of this comes out in the days after Charlie has killed Terry and Michelle. And Michelle's parents, Bill and Mary Lou, were infuriated. They couldn't believe that like this was just like a big dark secret that no one ever knew about and that Charlie had never received any kind of real treatment or ongoing treatment throughout his life. They believed that this could have been avoided had this been handled in a different way.

Mm-hmm. And they believe that Terry did not know of her husband's past. I believe that. Bill said, I don't think she would have married him, period, had she known. So now they have, they're dealing with this situation in Orlando. And so Detective Hemmert is like, the way that Michelle was killed and the way he processed her body. Yeah, this was not the first time. This was not the first time he did this. And so he went to work to go to the Brant's house and see what kind of evidence he might find there of what previous murders Charlie might have been responsible for.

So he drove the 400 miles from Orlando to where Terry and Charlie lived in Big Pine Key. And he found their house boarded up for the hurricane. He was shocked at how meticulously it was boarded up. It was like, he said it was unlike anything he'd ever seen. Obviously, everybody in Florida has, you know, hurricane preparation stuff. But this was like to the extreme. Every piece of wooden panel that was cut for each window was custom fit. The holes for the doorknobs for the French doors were perfectly round circles.

He said that this was the work of a, that you would expect out of, like, an engineer. Yeah. Which Charlie was not. This was a very meticulous work. This became what they called Charlie's signature. Ew. This meticulous detail.

Inside the house, things were just the same. It was very neat, very precise. There was one thing that Detective Hemmert, like, really stopped him in his tracks when he walked into the Brant's bedroom. So this was the bedroom that Terry and Charlie shared in their home. And on the back of the bedroom door was this very graphic anatomical female body poster. Like you'd see like in a doctor's office or in like a science lab. Uh-huh. It showed like it showed this like illustrated model with her hair up in this bun. And then it had the skeletal system and the muscular system completely detailed. And, like, you know, in, like, a science illustration format.

Right. Hanging in their bedroom. Yeah, that's really strange. Yeah. He thought this was very odd. He thought it was super odd that this would be in their bedroom. And, like, this is something Terry would see every day. And like what explanation could they have for something like this hanging in their bedroom?

And he thought when he looked at it that the way the illustration was done, the way portions of the body were cut away to display what was inside, Very closely mimicked how Michelle's body had been found. Yikes. Yeah. Along with that, he found all kinds of weird things that you wouldn't expect to find in a home where nobody had a job in medicine. There were all kinds of medical journals, anatomy books. Inside one of the anatomy books were the newspaper clippings of like a human heart, like diagrams of human hearts. Obviously, this was very alarming knowing that Michelle's heart had been removed from her body. It all kind of started to make sense.

And then around the house, they found stacks and stacks of Victoria's Secret catalogs all addressed to Charlie, which seems odd, but not necessarily nefarious or like that. Right. You know, whatever. Until you learn that Charlie's nickname for Michelle was Victoria's Secret. Ew. Mm-hmm. His niece? Yep. Yeah. Gross. Mm-hmm. His niece? Yep.

Yeah. Gross. Mm-hmm. So they believe that Charlie had been secretly infatuated with his niece. Mm-hmm. Oh, my God. Bill Jones, Michelle's father, said on this episode that him, and I don't really think this needs to be said, but that his daughter would have been livid had she known about the infatuation. Yeah.

Yeah. Obviously. Maybe he had to say that because, like, it's so common to blame victims in some way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's so common to blame victims in some way. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. They also found in the house, like, these diaries of Terry's, but they weren't, like, they were, like, journals, and they were very vague, not specific at all. She just, like, you know, oh, we had dinner tonight. Oh, we had a little tiff tonight. Oh, weird, Charlie was out kind of late tonight. Like, oh, shit. Yeah, no real details, but, like, a had dinner tonight. Oh, we had a little tiff tonight. Oh, weird. Charlie was out kind of late tonight. Like, oh, shit. Yeah. No real details, but like a couple of things that stuck out to investigators.

So now they're like, OK, Charlie has lived in this area for like 30 years. 30 years have passed since we know he murdered the first time. How many people has he murdered in between there? And so they start. Is that me? Oh, I'm so sorry. That's okay. Oh, it's a scam from Wichita, Kansas.

Pick up. I dare you. Not only that, but he traveled a lot around the area. Maybe for work. He was some kind of radar tech for Lockheed Martin, I think. Okay. Yeah, so I think he regularly traveled between the Keys and Miami. And he, like, meticulously kept his mileage every time he got gas.

So now they've got all of this stuff that they're lining up. They start looking at all these cold cases. And they brought in a criminal profiler to, like, look at all these things. And they look at anything that has a similarity to how Michelle was killed, anything that happened in the area, anything that could match up with kind of his mileage or where he was at the time. And they had a few cases that matched up. So before we get to those, I told you that, like, there was nobody who really saw, like, this coming. So this guy, Jim, who had spent a lot of time with Charlie in the 80s because he had been married to Charlie's sister, Angela, and also was the one that introduced Terry and Charlie.

He said one time, and he'd kind of brushed this off, hadn't really thought anything of it. One time, he and Angela were going through some tough times, and they'd split up for a little bit. They ended up getting back together I think at this time but he'd been fishing with Charlie to get his mind off of things and he was just talking about oh you know how tough it is and gosh

I just I don't know. I don't really know what to do and he said well you know revenge would help you feel better. What? And he said, well, you know, revenge would help you feel better. What? And he was like, I don't think that's going to help me feel better.

And he's like, no. When you get your feelings hurt, lashing out, that's going to help you. And if you really want to get revenge, you should kill somebody and cut their heart out. He brushed this off? He was like, well, that was super fucking creepy, but surely that was just like a weird thing he said, right?

He didn't literally mean cut somebody's heart out. Oh my God. Uh-huh. Yeah, looking back now, he says he wished he would have taken that seriously, and he wishes that he never would have introduced Terry to Charlie. Well, you know, hindsight is 20 20.

That is what they say. Who could blame him for not realizing that that was a creepy thing to say? Mm hmm. So he says and this is in contrast to what Michelle's parents believe. Mm-hmm. So he says, and this is in contrast to what Michelle's parents believe, he says that when he noticed that Charlie and Terry were getting serious, he pulled Charlie aside. And he's like, you have to tell her about your past. And he told him that he did. Mm-hmm. He said he never directly confirmed this with Terry.

But after they got married, he and Terry and Charlie and Angela were all talking and the subject of children came up. And they asked Charlie and Terry if they thought they'd have kids. And Terry said something to the effect of, considering everything, I don't think it's a good idea. And so he took that to mean that Charlie had told her. I think that's I can understand thinking that

but it was like a stretch. I don't think he told her maybe he told her that something happened when he was younger. But I don't think he told her the full story. Yeah. Okay.

So now we're looking at all of these cases, these cold cases in Florida through the years, seeing if they can link any of these to Charlie Brandt. And they come up with a couple that seem to fit. The first was a murder in 1995, the murder of Darlene Toller. She was a sex worker in Miami and her body had been found decapitated. Her heart had been removed. Oh, Lord. And she'd been kind of wrapped up in a blanket and then there'd been like plastic on it.

And inside that blanket, they'd found dog hairs. They'd collected this evidence and held on to them all these years. Well, Charlie had a dog. And so there was, like, this, yeah, there was, like, this move to want to try and match the DNA from the dog hairs in Charlie's truck that they were able to find after this to the dog hairs that were found in that body. But so much time had passed, and pet DNA is really a difficult, like, testing process. It's not the same as human DNA.

And so while this case has never been officially attributed to him, it. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So the lead detective on this case, his name was Pat Diaz. And he said if they could match those dog hairs, that he would believe 100% that this case was attributed to Charlie Brandt. But even without the matching dog hairs, I'm willing to attribute it to him. Yeah, it's a pretty fucking weird.

Decapitated and heart removed? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And when they compared it to his mileage records, he had a hundred mile spike in his mileage that day, which is like the exact distance to Miami. So was that a thing back in the day that people would track their mileage? My grandpa used to do that. Yeah, I don't know.

Was my grandpa a serial killer? Maybe. I don't think so. We should make that leap right now. It seemed like an old person thing. Yeah, I think it is. I've got a hair. You've got like a hair but twixt your titties?

That's right. Mm-hmm. Hmm. It's gone. Yeah, I think it is. I've got a hair. You've got a hair but twist your titties? That's right. It's gone off somewhere. I don't know. It's not like that hair that you found in your eyeball today. Yeah. No, gosh. I pulled a full hair out of my eyeball at lunch. We were talking and I was like, hold on, there's something in my eye.

And so I just like was trying, I was like pulling my entire eyeball out of my eye socket. I pulled a full hair out of my eye. It was kind of like watching a clown pull out all the scarves. I was impressed. Yeah. So then they're continuing to look at these cases and they find a second case. One that happened four blocks from Charlie's house in July of 1989.

So there was this bridge just off of Big Pine Key where Charlie lived and these local fishermen reeled in what they thought was a mannequin and it turned out it was actually the body of a woman. Her name was

Sherry Parisho. She was a local woman who, like, lived on a rowboat, like a little dinghy. She, like, every night would get in her little rowboat and, like, paddle 100 yards offshore. And she'd sleep out in her dinghy in the water. So she was found decapitated. Her heart was cut out. And this happened, yeah, four blocks from where Charlie lived. So they kept the rowboat from this.

Like, they believe she was killed in her rowboat because there were these deep cut marks in the bottom of her rowboat, which they had kept for years and years in like an evidence lot somewhere. Yeah. And so they went back and they looked at those and it was like, yeah, this she was laid out in this boat and then she was meticulously decapitated and her heart was removed using her boat as like the cutting table. Four blocks from where Charlie lived. What are you trying to say? I think that he was responsible for this. I think we've got a bona fide serial killer here. So that brother-in-law who said,

oh, he said that weird thing to me that one time about cutting somebody's heart out, said, you know, when I look at out, said, you know. Oh, my God. I'm now looking at this. There was another weird thing. Oh, no. That happened one time right around that time that Sherry Parisho was murdered.

So Terry came to me and she said, you know, I'm thinking about calling the police because at this time they were looking for tips on that murder and it happened so close to their home. And he was like, why? And she's like, well, you know, you know about Charlie's past. I'm just kind of nervous. And so this is what he said, like very vaguely at first. And then since then, trying to close this case, they actually had him do an official deposition under oath. And on that deposition, he said he gave a very a much more detailed account.

He said that Terry came to him and said that right around that time, Charlie had come home late one night. She came downstairs. She found him wet with blood all over him. And she'd asked him what had happened. And he said, oh, I was out filleting fish, you know, whatever. And when he gave this information and this deposition, the police were like, yep, that's all we need to hear. And they closed this case.

They officially attributed it. Yes, of course. To Charlie Brandt. Oh, my God. This is wild. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle's parents, Mary Lou and Bill, harbor a lot of anger about their daughter's murder.

Yeah. Obviously. They said, we have to face every day without our daughter. And that's horrible. Not only that, we lost two people who were very dear to us at the hands of someone who we had loved as part of our family. They said they struggle a lot in part because of the way that Michelle died and the way Terry died. They said it has completely destroyed them and that it is devastating.

And that much of their anger is directed at Herbert and Angela for protecting Charlie all of those years by keeping his secret. Bill said this man may have been able to have been stopped. He may never have been cured, but he could have been helped. He could have been stopped. Yeah. He was asked on this 48 Hours episode if he holds Herbert and Angela responsible for the murders. And he said, I do. Because they should have gotten this man help.

They knew he needed help. Wow. Mm-hmm. Part of this comes from the fact that they had a conversation with Angela immediately after the death, specifically after Charlie died by suicide. And Angela told them that she was glad that Charlie had died because now she could sleep at night. She said for nearly 30 years, she would not allow her air conditioner to run at night. She wouldn't allow the windows to be open. She wouldn't allow her doors to be unlocked

because she was afraid that Charlie would come and kill her. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Oh. Yeah. The Joneses, so Michelle's parents are actually pushing for laws to ensure that something like this doesn't happen again. They want a public database, much like a sex offender database for people who have murdered someone. Yeah.

Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. yeah yeah that makes sense yeah yeah mary lou said if we can do something to help somebody else to prevent them from facing what we did then michelle's life will have meaning terry's life will have meaning there should not be charlie's on the street mary lou has her theory of why charlie did what she did she said I believe he had a covert evil nature and I believe he was able to control it and cover it he was an invisible criminal walking

around an invisible criminal whose total number of victims is unlikely to ever be known. Yeah. And that's the story of a secret serial killer. Oh, wow. So I know there was like no court stuff in there. So I started researching this case and I was like, well, he murdered his mom. So of course there's court stuff. I think it's crazy that there is no court stuff, essentially. Like, yeah, the grand jury was convened and they were like, no, it doesn't fit the law for a crime.

Well, I hate to let you go over this, but. I'm getting fired from the podcast. No, that was so. Was that not fascinating? Oh, my God. I'd never heard that. Me either. Oh, that was.

Oh, yeah. Me either. That was wild. Me either. Oh, that was, ooh. Yeah, me either. That was wild. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you do wonder what the actual number was. Yeah. Hmm. Mm-mm-mm.

Mm. Are you ready for this? Yeah, you said it's a really terrible story. Great. I told you it was so bad that I had to ask Norman to tell me all the reasons he loves me. Wonderful. It's a good thing I did such a lighthearted case. Yeah, yeah.

Yours was a real breeze. What? Hold on. Legit question. Yeah. Legit question. Yeah. Why do you think it is that if Charlie was a serial killer, which I believe he was, why did he take his own life after he killed his wife and Michelle?

He thought, like, too close to home this time, you think? There was no way he wasn't himself off the hook for killing his mom because he was so young yeah then he likely went after people he didn't know or barely knew and then he did it to people he loved yeah and so maybe it was guilt maybe yeah but maybe it was you're right maybe it was just like and then he did it to people he loved. Yeah. And so maybe it was guilt, maybe,

but maybe it was, you're right. Maybe it was just like, I'm going to get caught for this. So, and I'm not going to get away with it this time. Yeah. Sorry. I meant to ask that question at the end and then I forgot.

So anyway, you want to talk about, about it more because it was so fun. I don't. You want to talk about about it more? I don't. I don't. I really don't. OK. Thank you to the documentary, The State of Texas versus Melissa.

It's available on Hulu. Very good documentary. The vast majority of this comes from that documentary. Majority of this comes from that documentary. Also, and I hate that I'm doing this, but there was also a very good episode of a podcast that I listened to. But if I tell you the name of the podcast, it gives the whole thing away. Okay. We'll cite it at the end, right? Yeah, it's called the Shitty Murderer Podcast.

Just kidding. Also, newspapers.com was very helpful. And just a smidge of Texas Monthly. Wonderful. A dab will do you. Yeah. Melissa Lucio had a rough life. She was born in Houston, Texas, but her biological father took off when she was like three months old.

And so her mom moved them to Harlingen, Texas, which is almost all the way down to the southernmost tippy tip tip of Texas. Just the tip. Oh, wow. I feel like I'm with a 25-year-old in 2008 right now. When Melissa was just seven years old, her mom's boyfriend began molesting her. And this just set off a horrible pattern. As Melissa puts it, she allowed herself to be molested by other family members. As I would put it, predators sniff out vulnerability and they choose who to go after. And it wasn't a matter of her allowing anything to happen.

But I include that because I think it's really important to know that that's how she views it as an adult woman. Yeah. So anyway, the sexual abuse was obviously very hard on Melissa, and it seems that she took on a lot of guilt and shame as a result of it. At one point when she was a child, her mom, who's named Esperanza but goes by Hope, walked in on Melissa crying in the kitchen. And she asked Melissa, what's wrong? And Melissa told her about the sexual abuse. And her mom, and I want you to keep in mind, this is the mom telling the story. So this is sugarcoated as much as it can be in her favor. She said, be quiet. Don't you ever say that again.

Great. Yeah, she didn't believe Melissa because Melissa was too little. Okay. Yikes. Don't worry. These days, she doesn't really think about that anymore because she shuts it out. Oh, okay. So it's fine.

What? It's fine? No, she wouldn't say, I'm being unfair to the mom. No, I get what you're saying. But, like, she just shuts it out. Yeah. Okay. She just shuts it out.

Yeah. Okay. So mostly to get out of this horrible situation, Melissa got married at 16, which is wild for many reasons, the least of which is that everyone looks 45 in those big 80s wedding gowns. Yes. I am telling you. So in the documentary, they kept being like, she got married so young, she got married so young. And they kept not saying her age, but they were showing these photos. And I'm like, well, I mean, yeah, she doesn't have wrinkles on her face. But I mean, I have no idea how old she is.

I mean, with those poofy sleeves, all that lace. I'm thinking about bringing that back for my wedding. I double dog dare you. Okay, okay. What would someone have to pay you to wear like a total 80s wedding gown? I don't think I, I mean, it'd have to be a lot of money. Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of money. What if they pay you a house with a pool and a hot tub already? Will they also pay for the cost of the wedding? Are you kidding me? No. You're getting a house with a pool and a hot tub. I want it all paid for. Yeah.

House, pool, hot tub, wedding. Yeah, they'll rent out the VFW for you. I don't want to get married at the VFW. Oh. Well, I know what I'm not doing for you. So she got married at 16. And of course, the marriage wasn't great. Her husband was an abusive alcoholic.

And right away, they began having kids. By the time she was 24, or another source said 22, either way this is nuts, she had five children. Yeah, that's a lot of kids. That's my humble opinion. Too many children, it's a lot of kids. And it was around this time that her husband left her. She later met a guy named Roberto Alvarez. Some sources call him Robert. I don't know if that's white folks nonsense or if he goes, you know, sometimes he drops the, oh.

He's feeling frisky. Oh, that was weird. Oh. Oh, no. We spent too much time together. You know what? We recorded two episodes this week. Oh, no. Our brain has become one. Oh, no.

Tonight is the night, Brandy. When two become one. Okay, so, you know, Roberto, Robert. Yeah. They went on to have nine children together. Oh, my. So many kids. Yeah.

So it's not like a total of nine or like. No. Nine more. Nine additional to the five. Oh my God. That's 14 kids. Brandy's good at math. Don't worry, everyone.

She's got this. Okay. Where do you house 14 kids? We're getting to it. It's not pretty. Okay. Where do you house 14 kids? We're getting to it. It's not pretty. Okay. Okay. All right.

So their relationship wasn't perfect either. Some accounts say that he was physically and psychologically abusive. So, I mean, that was obviously very tough. But one silver lining to this was that Melissa loved being a mom. After all she'd been through, it seemed that she got a lot of joy out of being a mom. You'd have to to have that many kids. Oh, my gosh. Or you're just like the best Catholic ever.

Yeah. I mean, I'm assuming she's Catholic. Otherwise, why? Yeah. Oh. Okay. So many kids. I just can't even imagine being pregnant once.

Everyone gave me this look like, nobody knows the trouble I've seen. I don't know. The pregnancy part, fine. It's the actual evacuation that I had trouble with. Oh, no. I'm thinking of... This is so stupid. I hate that I'm a 35-year-old woman quoting Austin Powers,

but the way your delivery went, it was kind of like that scene. Evacuation, come. Evacuation, come. Come. Yeah. It's real fun to make fun of a traumatic birth story. So Melissa was very poor, and there were so many mouths to feed. They lived in run-down apartments that were just way too small for that number of people.

I don't think they make an apartment that's been out for that many people. I mean, yeah, you have to have a palace or nothing. I don't know. We're talking one or two bedrooms max. Everyone, Brandy about threw up. Yeah. Like, physically, where does everybody go? Well, so maybe the older, the first set of kids are a little bit older so they've you

know they're out in their own okay all right all right so it's still a lot of kids it really creeps me out that i all i had to do was make one hand gesture and you just filled that in completely for me we're too in sync yeah oh who do i want to be I'd like to be Joey, please. Joey's a good time. Yeah, I know. Just like myself. Now, do you want to be Lance Bass or do you just want Lance Bass inside you? Listen, it doesn't matter how much I want Lance Bass inside of me, if that's what I want. Lance Bass is not interested in being inside my Lance Bass.

It is my goal to continue talking about him as much as possible until he listens to this podcast. All right. Well, seems like we got a ways to go. I agree. Seems like we got a ways to go. I agree. Also, because can you imagine? I mean, yeah, if he even heard like the slightest bit about this, he'd be like, well, for safety reasons, it seems like I should not reach out to those two. No, I promise you're safe with us.

Oh, God. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a serial killer. I super swear. Come on down to Kansas City. This is a safe place. I've got a basement for you. Yeah. We'll make it up real nice.

Yeah. Anyway, moving on. So they've got like two bedrooms max. Their furniture was, of course, never new. It was usually whatever other people left on the curb. But it does seem like the kids had some pretty good memories from that time. Every evening they'd go to Loaves and Fishes, which was a charity that provided free meals. And afterward they'd stop at the playground and play.

And the kids say that their mom was calm and fun. That's very ominous. Yeah. Is she going to murder all these kids? I mean, who has the time to murder 14 kids? That was tacky. I'm sorry. That was terrible. But they do say safety in numbers you gotta keep going you gotta move on with the story Kristen

I'm just saying that the fact that they said she's calm and fun yeah I think that is that is foreshadowing that she's going to do something not calm and not fun. You know what your problem is? You've watched too many episodes of Dateline where it starts out, they were the perfect couple. You're like, aha, they were the worst couple anyone's ever heard of. Okay.

Accurate. So she wasn't always fun, though. Melissa had a drug problem. She would lock herself in the bathroom. It appears cocaine was her drug of choice. And then come out a few hours later when she sobered up. So it's probably not a surprise that when her youngest daughter, Mariah, was born, Mariah had drugs in her system. And CPS got involved.

For a while, all the children were placed in foster care due to neglect. And foster care noted that the children fought a lot. They were super into WWE, which was just big at the time. Yeah. And they were pretty rough with each other. The kids were in foster care for, I think it was about two years. And at some point, Melissa and Roberto got supervised visits, and they got jobs that kind of paid well enough that CPS decided, okay, you can have the kids back at home. So when the youngest child, Mariah, was about two, two and a half, CPS returned the seven minor children to the home. I have a question mark after seven because other sources weren't so clear on the number. But, you know, a shitload of kids.

Yeah, a bunch of kids came back home. But CPS, of course, continued to monitor the situation. I don't know the exact timeline on this part, but I do know that one time CPS showed up and noted that the family didn't have running water. It had been shut off due to lack of payment and there wasn't much food in the house, but there was kind of a snarky thing of like, well, but the parents managed to buy themselves some weed. Oh, another report said that the family had been homeless for more than a month. They were sleeping out in a park. Oh, gosh. One report was like, hey, this apartment that they're all living in is way too small, and you access it using a very dangerous, rickety set of exterior stairs. And I mean, this staircase, whoo, they showed pictures.

It's a disaster waiting to happen. staircase, they showed pictures. It's a disaster waiting to happen. It probably wasn't safe for anyone, let alone a family with so many kids. But especially when you consider that little Mariah had a bit of a mobility issue. One of her feet turned inward, which meant that she fell down a lot. But I mean, it's not like Melissa and Roberto wanted to have other kids in this tiny apartment with the rickety set of stairs. So pretty quickly after that, they moved into a different ground floor apartment. That moving day was February 15, 2007. And moving days are chaotic, Brandy. I don't know if you know that.

I can't imagine adding a million kids to the mix. But what could they do? Do you know what's crazy? What? I moved into my apartment on February 15, 2007. Really? Yes. How do you even remember that?

It's a date that's in my head. I'm glad you said why you were weirded out. I read it. It's a date that's in my head. I'm glad you said why you were weirded out because I said that date and your whole face changed. It did because how weird and how weird that I remember that date. Honestly, I've decided it's not weird at all that you remember dates. I feel like you are ready for any history test at any moment. As long as it's like the history of me. Sure. You've got like a million people in your family and you know all their birthdays.

Yeah. Yeah. There's like a weird thing with dates in my brain. You know what I don't like? Dates the fruit. Dates the fruit. Were you really going to say that? Yes.

It's getting too weird in here! It is. It's getting real weird in here. We need a week between these episodes just to like, I don't know. That's too weird. So, you know, they're loading up the car to take Steph to the new place

and Melissa and one of her older daughters along with little Mariah, were in the old place packing up clothes while a few of the other kids played outside. At one point, one of the kids came back inside to get a drink of water, but when he left the apartment, he forgot to latch the screen door shut. And Mariah followed him, and of course, she was unsteady, and she fell down the stairs and hit her head on the pavement. Oh, gosh.

Several of the siblings saw Mariah fall, and of course, Melissa came running. And you know, Mariah cried, but once she got calmed down, she seemed fine. So some time passed. One source said about 24 hours. It seems like it was a little more than that. And Mariah really didn't have much of an appetite and she just seemed kind of sleepy. Two days later, on February 17th, 2007, a bunch of the kids were all sitting around watching TV together at the new place when Mariah fell asleep. And she didn't wake up. The family called for an ambulance and paramedics tried to resuscitate Mariah and it didn't work. She had like a brain bleed from the fall, and that's how she died. Interesting.

Okay. When the paramedics tried to resuscitate her, they noticed a lot of bruises on her body, and they began asking questions. Some of the kids mentioned that Mar. And they began asking questions. Some of the kids mentioned that Mariah had fallen down the stairs, but the paramedics didn't know that the family had just moved.

So they naturally assumed that the kids were talking about like the two or three steps leading up to their new ground floor apartment. And they were like, well, there's no way these injuries were caused by that. They rushed Mariah to the hospital, but it was no use. She was dead on arrival.

An ER doctor named Alfredo Vargas examined her body, and he was just as horrified as the EMTs had been. He noted serious signs of abuse. There were bite marks on her back, bald spots from where her hair had been pulled out. The little girl had tons of bruises that appeared to be in various stages of healing. And there was evidence that one of her arms had been broken anywhere from two to seven weeks before she died. Oh, my gosh.

He did not note any evidence of brain trauma. So. I'll just file that. Hmm. Hmm. Oh, got something to say? What you got, Brandy? What you got?

You're the only one we've got on this case. Oh, it seems like you got a little tunnel visually... Well, a little... Tunnel visually. Tunnel visual... Vision-y. There we go. Tunnel vision-y.

Oh, you were trying to say tunnel vision. Okay. That makes a lot more sense. I thought you were just looking for tunnel vision. No. You got tunnel vision-y and was like, we've got an abuse case here. Maybe didn't do as thorough of an examination as he should have. Okay.

I'll tell him you said that. Okay, great. So the doctor told all this to the police, and wow, they did not waste time. The night that Mariah died, police arrested Melissa and Roberto, and Melissa waived her right to an attorney. They asked her about Mariah's injuries, and Melissa told them that Mariah had fallen down the stairs, and that her children played kind of rough, and that Mariah was unstable on her feet. But they didn't buy it because clearly this little girl had been horribly abused. She had bruising all over her body. They pulled out photos of Mariah's dead body and showed them to Melissa, demanding an explanation. At one point, a detective said to her, you know something was wrong.

And she said, no, sir, I don't. And he said, you know something is wrong. And she said, no, sir, I don't. And he said, if I bring you all those pictures, if I beat you half to death like that little child was beat, I bet you'd die too. Jesus. This interrogation was very intense. And Melissa said, sir, I did not beat my daughter, sir. And he said, no. She said, I'm not that cruel to my children. This interrogation lasted anywhere from six to seven hours. And it was rough.

Melissa had just lost her child. She hadn't eaten. She hadn't had anything to drink. And at that moment, she was pregnant with twins. Holy shit. And at this point, it's like two in the morning yeah but melissa stood strong but the men kept pressuring her they tried the nice guy tactic hey we all make mistakes we've all been there to understand. Yeah. And then there's the classic hey, hey, we already know

what happened, okay? We know the whole story. Which, I wonder how often some smartass is like, well good, why am I here? Right. Why do you keep asking me questions if you already know?

They told her that this was a capital murder case, that she'd go to prison for the rest of her life, that she'd never see her other kids again. And finally, at around 3 a.m., Melissa sort of caved. She didn't admit to causing Mariah's death, but she did accept responsibility for Mariah's bruises. She said they were from spankings, and so the investigators brought in a doll and had Melissa demonstrate exactly how hard she hit Mariah. And when she didn't hit the doll hard enough, they told her, no, do it how you really did it.

I mean, it is painful to watch. It's so uncomfortable. And super coercive. Or did they just catch a cold-blooded murderer? That's not how I'm leaning at this particular time. But check back in with me. We'll see. She also admitted to biting Mariah.

What? So, I mean, at this point, I have to pause and say that not every medical examiner thinks that that was a bite mark on her. Remember back in the day when everybody thought, like, people were biting dead bodies and there was bite mark analysis and now that's kind of gone by the wayside. Yeah, it's job science. Anyway, so, you know, she admitted it. She bit her. Ultimately, they charged Melissa with capital murder. I do bite London's little toes.

I do that with her little toes. You know what? Kyla used to kiss her kid's feet, and my dad would get so disgusted. I'd take London's little feet, and I'd go. She laughs. She laughs. Little does she know that each of her toes are just a little amuse-bouche for you. And one day it's going to get real. The Cannibal Mom.

Oh, no. That'll be the name of your documentary. Oh, no. Don't worry, guys. She's just thinking about it. She's not going to actually do it. Can't lock her up yet. I'm sorry.

They show B-roll of you in front of a crock pot with your little meatball recipe. Oh, no. I'm sorry. I'm just really visualizing this documentary. I feel like I could, you know, I could do a good job on this. My cell phone records videos. So, you know, this is all bing, bang, boom, fast, fast, fast. I just don't.

I don't like any of this so far, but continue on. What don't, I don't like any of this so far, but continue on. What don't you like? So many things. Onions. That's right. Avocados. The way they're questioning this woman, the way they're putting words in her mouth, the way they didn't do that thorough of an examination.

Are they saying she died of bruises? Because that doesn't make any sense. No, so if you could keep your pants on, the autopsy has not yet been performed. We're just talking about, like, the ER doctor. Yeah, I get that. Oh, do you? Yeah. Do you?

Okay, continue on, please. Norma Jean Farley was a forensic pathologist, and she performed the autopsy on Mariah. And as she examined the little girl's body, she realized that she was looking at the worst case of child abuse she'd ever seen. The little girl had bruises on her face, her chest, her limbs. She had scrapes on her neck. But her job was to determine what exactly had killed Mariah. And she noticed that there was blood pooled in the cranial vault where the brain sits.

And that's a direct quote because I know nothing about anatomy. I don't have a poster on my bedroom wall. So she died of a brain bleed. She figured that had to be due to a punch or a kick. Or fall down the stairs. No, a punch or a kick. So you know what immediately I thought of when you said she was fine for a day, two days, and then she went to sleep and died? What? Was Natasha Richardson. Who's that? She was an actress. Liam Neeson's wife.

She had a ski accident where she fell, hit her head, went to the hospital and they were like, oh yeah, you might have a concussion. And then she died two days later. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Hmm. Yeah, she had a brain bleed.

Okay, well, keep that in mind, won't you? Okay. All right. Sure will. She was certain that this little girl had been beaten for weeks or months before she died of either, you know, a really hard punch or kick to the head, you know, something like that. At her arraignment, Melissa met her defense attorney for the first time. His name was Peter Gilman. And in this documentary, they did a bunch of really awkward B-roll where he sat perfectly still.

So the main thing I can tell you about him is he looks straight out of Madame Tussauds. I mean, the dude looks like he's made of wax. Yes. In this initial meeting, Peter told Melissa, sorry, were you distracted? You still have hair in your titties? I've got a hair in my, I got it that time. Goodbye. Everybody, every now and then I get a hair in my bra.

Brandy's never had the pleasure. She thinks I'm weird. Anyway. Has this really never happened to you? No. God damn it. Okay. It really has not. I think it's because I don't wear as many plunging

nipples as you do. No. Never happens when I have my turtleneck on. Or my dickie. That's why I wear a dickie every day to keep the hairs out of my bra. You started it. Yep.

So in this initial meeting, Peter told Melissa that the D.A. had come to him offering a plea deal. 30 years. Melissa was 38 at the time, so if she took the deal, she'd be out by the time she was 68. She'd be able to see her kids again. But Melissa rejected the plea deal. She wasn't guilty, for what it's worth. Peter and Melissa seemed to have been equally unimpressed with one another. Peter said Melissa was a bad mother and that she was reserved and docile and not expressive. I really like for the person who's representing me in court and, like, fighting for my life to think that I'm a bad mother when I'm accused of child abuse.

Yeah. It's not great. No. Also, okay, this thing about her being very reserved and docile and not expressive to me that just sounds like severe depression yeah obviously i'm not an expert right there's talk of dissociative states in this documentary and i'm just saying those words. I really don't know much about them. But I'm just saying, like, I don't think she was just like, I'm Lord. I think, you know.

She was very, very deeply depressed. Her child died. Yeah, it was almost as if her child died. Yeah, and she'd been taken away from all her other children. Yeah. By the way, I should say, because I know people are going to come for us. I'm not saying she was perfect. No. No.

Just saying. Not saying she was perfect. All right. But I'm saying that I'm perfect. Obviously. Everybody already knows that. My only flaw was that I had a hair in my bra and now it's gone. So I'm flawless.

My only flaw was that I had a hair in my bra and now it's gone. So I'm flawless. So they geared up for trial and Melissa sort of expected that part of her defense would rely on testimony from her children. They'd seen Mariah fall down those stairs. They could testify to that. They could testify to the fact that she'd never been violent with any of them. But Peter didn't like that idea. He felt that the kids were out of control, completely undisciplined, and would be too unpredictable in a courtroom. I do want to say, they had some B-roll from one of the kids being interviewed by, I assume it's like a social worker.

The child sat perfectly still and answered questions. That's not to say they weren't unruly and all that stuff, but I'm just saying, you know. In the meantime, while she was in jail, Melissa gave birth to the twins. So her trial was about to get underway, and the DA, Armando Villalobos, was front and center. He was the face of this case, perhaps because he was running for re-election. But why not? This was a big case. If Melissa Lucio got the death penalty, she'd be the first Hispanic woman on death row.

Great. And it's always about, you know, diversity and advance. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. See, here's the thing, Brandy. The DA's office really needed to look tough on crime because they'd recently had what we like to call on this podcast an oops fudge stripes situation. You see, five days before Mariah died, this dude pled guilty to murder, okay? And the DA's office let him walk free afterward so that he could get his affairs in order.

And naturally, the murderer just disappeared. Well, for fuck's sake. He pled guilty to murder, and they were like, now you come back, now you're here. Was he white? I don't think so. I guess I don't know. I didn't see a picture of the guy.

By the way, they did not find that man for 10 years. Holy shit. Turns out he was hiding in India somewhere. Anyway, there's no time for that story. What? He made it all the way to India? I mean, he had 10 years. Wow.

I know it seems far, but it's not that far. Doesn't take 10 years to get there. Anyway, the important thing is that the DA's office had basically blown kisses and waved their hankies as a murderer walked free, and that pissed people off. Well, fuck yes it did! What are you doing? It garnered a ton of bad press, obviously. Oh, imagine that.

So this time it was important to get things right. And boy, did they. Melissa Lucio's trial began in the summer of 2008. Why are you making that face? I just am not feeling confident in the fact that she's been charged with murder. I so often feel confident when people are charged with murder. The face you're making right now is alarming. You really just made your chin go bye-bye.

So the prosecution went all out talking about how Melissa had confessed to this crime. She'd confessed to it all. Norma Jean Farley, the forensic pathologist, testified about what she'd discovered during the autopsy. She talked about that fatal blow to the head. And when the defense asked her, OK, could that head injury have been caused by a fall down the stairs? Norma said no. It could only have been caused by a beating. No.

How do you make that determination? Yeah, no, no, no. No. No. Goodbye, Norma Jean. Oh, no. Okay. The ER doctor, Alfredo Vargas, talked about Mariah's injuries and how she was small for her age and dehydrated.

He told the jury, I've never seen anything like this in 30 years. This is the absolute worst I've ever seen. But once again, the defense jumped up and asked, could these injuries have been caused by a fall down the stairs? And the doctor said, you know what? It's possible. The prosecution also played a portion of Melissa Lucio's interrogation tape, namely the end when she doesn't admit to murder but does take responsibility. But as the icing on the cake, and I love this, Detective Robert Munoz told the jury that he'd actually overheard Melissa admitting to the murder. Oh, he overheard it? Mm-hmm. Here's how it happened. Are you ready? I'm ready.

He said that he and another officer had been driving Melissa and Roberto to a dentist appointment, and she made a phone call, and on that phone call, she said, and I quote, don't blame Robert. This was me.

I did it. That could be about anything. I also wonder, like, the newspaper article said this was Robert. Did they lose the O? Did he lose the O? I mean, you'd think you would know your boyfriend's name. Hmm. Okay. Oh, gosh. What? Well, I'm just wondering, okay, this girl has some health issues. Is it possible that she had some kind of condition that made her bruise more easily than a standard child? And that is why these injuries look so severe when it really is all caused by a fall down the stairs. So many things to wonder about.

Okay. I just. Okay, great. Let's go. Do you see why I was having such a terrible time yesterday? I don't like this case either. terrible time yesterday. I don't like this case either. The prosecution also called CPS workers and the Texas Ranger who'd been part of Melissa's interrogation. And for what it's worth, just going off of newspapers.com articles from that time, the defense attorney was pretty aggressive in his cross examinations. At one point he yelled, that's a bunch of baloney. And he said that to the Texas

Rangers. So I think we can all agree that he wasn't nutless. The defense brought up the fall down the stairs a lot. And Peter Gilman also brought up Melissa's older children. They had been the ones who'd been tasked with a lot of the care for the younger children while, you know, she and Roberto were at work. And some of them had been known to be'd been tasked with a lot of the care for the younger children while, you know, she and Roberto were at work. And some of them had been known to be physical with the younger kids. So he made a point of asking why some of the older children hadn't been looked at as suspects. Interestingly, at one point, Melissa's younger sister testified and said that she'd stopped going over to Melissa and Roberto's house because they wouldn't spank their kids. Because they had so many kids who were just running fucking amok in there.

I wouldn't be going over there either. I mean, yeah, it sounds terrible. I realize I wasn't invited. She said her children were very aggressive toward my daughter. You know, there was just kind of no discipline. It was out of control. But again, they didn't spank the kids. Yeah.

Interesting. Overall, Melissa's defense wasn't very substantial. They did bring on a pediatric neurologist to talk about Mariah's injuries, but he wasn't a forensic scientist, so he wasn't allowed to testify about any of her injuries below the neck, which meant that they had no real defense against the prosecution's contention that all of Mariah's other injuries had been the results of beatings. And they were only allowed one expert for the...

No, they... I don't want to say they didn't get a good enough one, because I'm sure this person was fine, but like... It wasn't thorough enough. You need a forensic pathologist. They also had... Do I save this for later? Maybe. I'll give you a little teaser. They had wanted to bring on two other expert witnesses, but were told, no, thank you. Okay. In closing arguments,

Peter Gilman told the jury that Melissa never confessed to this crime. He said, nowhere in that statement does it say, I killed my child. Three doctors testified that she could have died from blunt force head trauma by falling down the stairs. Yeah. And Brandy, you're going to love this. He later said, my client is not up for mother of the year.

She's guilty of child abuse. But they haven't proven that she intentionally murdered her child. You love it when the defense shits on their own client. It's your favorite thing. Yes. In the prosecution's closing statement,

Maria DeFord said, it was no accident. She beat her. She stomped her. She threw her. She pinched her little vagina. What kind of mother does this? Yeah, so you about lost your head when I said pinched her little vagina.

Yeah. That's the first mention. I was just going to say there's been no mention of her little vagina up till now. Now. And I am happy about that. Yeah. It's not like i've been missing the mentions i again i mean we're not doing like a it's not like i read all 3 000 pages of this thing but it was very jarring to be like to have watched the documentary okay i've read some

other articles okay now i'm kind of going newspapers.com i'm looking at the days of the trial and all of a sudden, in closing arguments, I'm seeing something about her vagina. Yeah. Anyway. Okay. With that, the jury went into deliberation and they found Melissa Lucio guilty. Yeah. Melissa says she was confused by the verdict. She felt like she was in a dream and that she'd wake up and she'd be with her kids. During the sentencing phase, the defense talked about the sexual abuse Melissa suffered as a child, the abuse she received from her husband, and the physical and psychological abuse she received from her current partner, Roberto. They said that Melissa had a very passive,

nonviolent personality. She showed symptoms of battered woman syndrome, which I don't know if we still call it that. But anyway, do we still call it that? I think so. Okay. But it doesn't appear that anyone was too moved by this. Might be battered spouse syndrome now. I don't know.

That probably doesn't need to be included. Can I cut that? Battered biscuits? Battered biscuits. What was that thing today? A bro nut? A bro nut. Oh, everyone.

Did you know that you can buy in America... I think it was called a bone nut. Not a bro nut. Oh, no. A bro nut. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah, there's no shortage of bro nut. You don't have to order that.

Oh, God. I've made this filthy. Changes the tone. Significantly. Well, I just had to have a brunette, you know? Bet you can't have just one. No, so it's a biscuit

dipped in French toast. In French toast batter and then fried and then covered in powdered sugar. I did not have one, but I was intrigued. And I'm so glad I didn't accidentally order one and call it a bro-nut. That lady might have yelled at that poor guy again and told him to come on over.

Is it kind of like when they make the table side guacamole? No. Is it kind of like when they make the table side guacamole? No. Doc's is nuts and French toast. You know, I'll just say it. I think that should cost more than $3. I think they're just giving it away.

Oh, natural transition here. So, you know, they presented all this stuff on Melissa, and it just appears that people were not moved. Yeah. Because she was sentenced to death by lethal injection. Mm-hmm. Are you ready for some good news? She appealed. Her sentence was overturned. She got a new trial based on ineffective counsel.

No better news than that. Oh, okay. Not long after Melissa got her death sentence, her defense attorney, Peter Gilman, got a new job. It was at the DA's office. Oh, great. it was at the DA's office oh great he was hired on at a higher pay rate than the more experienced

attorneys who already worked there and you know the actual date that he got the job offer is a little unclear but don't worry about it also I don't know what do you think there was like some kind of shady deal going on here? Brandy

you disgust me. Why can't you just be happy for this guy? So my previous prediction is right. Based on this, she gets a new fucking trial due to prosecutorial misconduct. Well, let's find out, shall we? I'm not done with the good news yet. I'm sorry. Let the good news parade continue.

So he was, I guess, so impressive and so good that he got the job offer before he'd even submitted his resume to HR. He was just that good, Brandy. His reputation precedes him. By losing a case. And because good things happen to good people, you should also know that his wife was then also offered a job at the courthouse. Oh, great. Cool. Yeah.

So everything turned out great for the Gilmans. But terrible news. The district attorney, Armando Villalobos, wasn't doing so hot. Did he lose his reelection? He was under investigation by the FBI. Clearly, the mayor tipped him off. But more on that later. Yes. Let's get back to Melissa. Your eyes are like massive right now. As we all know, anytime someone is sentenced to death, there's, you know, the lengthy appeals process. And this case was no exception. For this part, Melissa got an amazing attorney named

Margaret Schmucker. So this podcast I listened to, I know she was her attorney for at least 10 years, I think. At some point she became not her attorney. Anyway, you get the idea. She started that jelly business. Schmuckers is for people who can't quite afford smugglers but I think it tastes the same you know I'm not paying for the label so right away Margaret who does not go by Peggy dug into the case file if you can call it a file, because it was like 2,000 to 3,000 pages of stuff. But Margaret was not deterred. She was like, look, I could either watch all of the Lord of the Rings movies or I could read this file.

I'd choose the file. Obviously, I'd rather read the file. Yeah. No contest. So here are a few of Margaret's initial reactions. So here are a few of Margaret's initial reactions. First off, she was very surprised to see that in all the CPS reports about Melissa, this supposedly violent woman who murdered her kid, there was zero evidence that Melissa had ever been violent toward any of her kids ever. Margaret also noted that none of the children had ever witnessed Melissa beating Mariah. And to add to it, Melissa had never been alone with Mariah

in the time frame in question. There was always family around. The places they lived in were simply too small and too crowded for Melissa to have secretly beaten one of her kids without anyone witnessing it. Also, as Margaret poured over the records, she was not impressed by the job that Peter Gilman did on this case. She was shocked that he didn't make an attempt to suppress Melissa's so-called confession. She began talking to people who had worked on the case, and personally, I'd argue that the most shocking revelation came from a mitigation specialist named Norma Villanueva. Norma had been, she's our. That's not the norm. Norm. Okay.

Oh, God. Click. Everyone's doing this stuff. They were like, I tried. I really did. Norma had been hired by the defense, and she explained in an affidavit that she didn't get access to melissa's children until very late in the process and when she did get to talk to them one of the older daughters alexandra said that she was the reason mariah fell down the stairs she told norma that she'd been angry with mariah that day because she'd been crying a lot and getting between the other kids who are all kind of playing and fighting.

And she was the reason Mariah fell down the stairs. Wow. So I know that runs counter to the story I told you earlier. The story I told you earlier came from the director of this film. Yeah. That's what she said happened. This is. Yeah.

Anyway, Norma says she told Peter Gilman this information and he told her that she wasn't to tell anyone what she'd heard. Because that might result in criminal charges for Alexandra. Or it could result in her mother not being sentenced to death. Right. Whose attorney are you? Holy shit. And no, it would not have resulted in criminal charges. Oh, you're right. It wouldn't have.

No. Yeah, probably not. This idea that Alexandra... It's not like she said, I pushed her down the stairs. Right. It was, something happened, I was supposed to be watching her, I'm the reason, yes, whatever. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

No, I don't think that would have resulted, that, ugh. Okay, I don't like Peter Gilman or whatever his fucking name is. Well, Brandy, is that because he got a nice new job and you're jealous? That's obviously it. Okay. The idea that Alexandra had caused Mariah's injuries was kind of an open secret within the family. At one point when Melissa was either awaiting trial or in the midst of her trial, her oldest child,

Daniela, and Melissa's sister, Sonia, met with Peter Gilman. And Daniela said, hey, I saw my sister beat Mariah on the head. She did it coldly without emotion. Wow. Yeah. Okay. But again, this wasn't mentioned at trial. But Melissa's family really didn't let this go. At one point, one of her sisters visited Melissa, and Melissa's mom, Hope, came along too. They intentionally didn't bring any of the kids because they wanted to discuss this thing with Alexandra. And the sister, I believe it was Sonia, said, Melissa, I'm going to ask you something, but don't answer me. Just nod your head yes or no. And the mom turned away because she didn't want to see.

And she said, would Alex hit Mariah? And Melissa didn't nod her head, didn't shake her head. She just cried. Mm-hmm. Which translation means yes. That's exactly what the sister said. Yeah. I mean, the sister was like, you know, I don't blame her for not affirming.

Yeah, exactly. Or denying it. But we know what that means. What? To me, that is the explanation for why she took responsibility for Mariah's injuries, because she didn't stop her other child

from doing it. She's the parent. She's responsible for her children's actions. She knew that that happened sometimes and didn't intervene. Yeah, that's almost exactly how I take it. I take it as kind of a the buck stops here type of thing. I take responsibility for what happens in my home. Yeah, absolutely. Melissa later said that she did see bruises on Mariah occasionally, and she suspected that Alex had done it. And that day in the interrogation, she said she admitted to having caused Mariah's bruises to protect Alex. Of course.

In the documentary, they interviewed Alexandra about this. And, you know, it's one of those moments where all of a sudden she shows up on screen and you're like, Screech! Holy shit. And she just straight out said, I didn't have a bond with Mariah. I didn't feel like she was my sibling. I didn't hit her. No. I mean, not like in a forceful way.

I don't remember saying that I pushed her or that she fell down the stairs and that I was responsible for it. She says all this, by the way, with a baby in her lap. Wow. It's pretty chilling. Yeah. Not saying she did it, but I'm just saying it's, yeah, it's a lot. Yeah. And okay, there's no reason for me to tell you this next part except I have to. Okay. The documentary also featured a magical woman named Lynn Marie Garci. She's a private investigator and mitigation specialist, and she worked on Melissa's appeals. And she's an older white lady.

She favors floral tops, pearl necklaces, lipstick. And, yes, she wears sunglasses with big silver stars on the side. And yes, those stars are most certainly encircled in rhinestones. Obviously, this is Texas. Obviously, there's a rhinestone half circle around the lenses. And rhinestone patterns down the arms of her glasses. Do you call them the arms of the glasses? What do you call them?

I don't know. Arm, I think that's right. Okay. I had legs, but then it's like not legs. Not legs. Then I had dongs, but that didn't seem right either. Yeah, no. My new best friend, Lynn Marie, had a lot to say about Peter Gilman.

She said that one of her first jobs was to get the files from him. And she said that he really dragged his feet to the point that she got the sense that he knew he'd sabotaged Melissa's case. And he didn't want anyone opening it back up and digging into it and figuring out how badly he'd screwed it up. She says at one point she went to the courthouse and introduced herself. And here's how she says that conversation went. So she goes up to him, says she's a private investigator. And he goes, oh, I don't hire any of those anymore. And she said, yeah, I reckon you don't. But I was working on Melissa Lucio's case. And he goes, oh, that's all done. That's over. I'm not going to talk about that. And she said,

well, would you tell me if you knew that Alex is the one that really pushed that baby down the stairs? And he said, no, I'm no. You knew about it, Peter? Because I saw it in your notes. Why would I want to ruin a teenager's life? She had her whole life ahead of her. She's not my client, no ways. No? But Melissa was your client? Why would you send her to death row

when you've been told by witnesses that she didn't do this? We're not going to discuss this no more. Then she looks at the camera and she goes, and then he scooted me right on out the door. And that concludes the story that I simply had to tell you. I realize it could have been cut. I realize you didn't need to know what her sunglasses looked like, but... I loved it. Yes. So this case went through all kinds of legal hoopla, and none of it really went anywhere, so I'm speeding through it. But I bet you're curious about

how our good friends at the FBI were doing. Well, they'd been keeping an eye on the DA, Armando Villalobos, and turns out he was into some super corrupt shit. He was in with the cartels. He was taking bribes. He paid off a judge. He took all kinds of bribes from criminals in exchange for, like, wimpy little plea deals or be like, oh, we won't take you off probation. What?

we won't take you off probation. What? Did they uncover the time where he gave that defense attorney a job on his staff as a result of like throwing a death penalty case? My serious opinion? Mm-hmm. They had bigger fish to fry. Okay. All right.

And probably that was maybe a little harder to prove. Yeah. So the FBI had been investigating this and then, oh, shit, Armando Villalobos decided to run for Congress. Great. And, you know, like, it looked like maybe he'd win, I guess. I don't know, because he'd had this strategy of enriching himself through bribery and all this shady shit, but then taking center stage and being the hero on child abuse cases and sex abuse cases, you know, stuff that really appeals to voters.

So yada, yada, yada. Armando never got a chance to become a congressman because he was sentenced to 13 years in federal prison. Excellent. he was sentenced to 13 years in federal prison. Excellent. Meanwhile, Melissa's legal team was still working on her appeals, and as part of that work, they hired a forensic pathologist named Thomas Young. And I don't mean to get you all riled up, but Thomas Young resides in Kansas City, Missouri!

They showed B-roll of Kansas City and I gasped. That's my town. That's where I live. I know that place. I mean, obviously, if you live in New York,

you can't gasp every time you see New York on the TV. No, it's all the time. But I mean, we're in Kansas City. Yeah, it's exciting. Hey, Norm!

Norm, come look! Come look, Kansas City's on the TV! I think I we're in Kansas City. Yeah, it's exciting. Hey, Norm! Norm, come look! Come look, Kansas City's on the TV! I think I see me in the background down there. That's me by that tree. So Thomas was asked to review the case, and he took it all in, including the fact that some of the kids saw Mariah fall down the stairs, but that her bruises didn't show up until quite a bit later. And he goes, oh, that's evidence of a brain injury.

How you doing there, Brandy? Doing pretty good. Looking a little smug. Are you basically a forensic pathologist? Is that what's happening? Everyone, we have to pause. Brandy's printing out an online certificate for herself. Certificate of completion.

Forensic pathology. So I thought this was so interesting. The way he described it was the brain falls apart and substances go into the bloodstream that cause just a bunch of reactions. Previous injuries will become unmasked. Minor movement and motion will suddenly develop tons of bruises. He said even just lying down on a bed can cause bruises all down your back when you have this kind of brain injury.

Wow. all down your back when you have this kind of brain injury. Wow. Now for the spooky part. He said lots of people get locked up for this. The doctor who performs the autopsy sees bruises, assumes child abuse, of course. Yeah. And even if the parent or guardian has no history of violence toward children, maybe the police can coerce a confession.

And then the person gets locked up for murdering a child. Oh, my gosh. So in July of 2019, Melissa's appeal went before a three-judge panel, or as it's known on this podcast, a three-panel judge. Yes. Just a trifold. Yes. A trifold judge.

Uh-huh. Like a fourth grade science project. And her legal team argued that Melissa's right to a complete defense had been violated. Because the trial court had excluded two expert witnesses, a social worker and a psychologist, from testifying on her behalf. worker and a psychologist from testifying on her behalf. The psychologist would have told the jury about how Melissa's confession was coerced and explained that she was suffering from battered woman syndrome and that she had been conditioned to take the blame for everything that went on in her family. During that original trial, the court said that that kind of information about a person's character and background is really only appropriate for the sentencing phase.

It's not relevant when you're trying to determine whether someone is guilty. Dis-a-fucking-gree. Yeah. Completely. Yeah, absolutely. When you're talking about someone's reaction to interrogation, I think their background and their personality is absolutely relevant. Yes.

Anyway, the three-judge panel agreed, along with that three-panel judge. Wonderful. So that makes four. This was a really big deal. They granted Melissa a new trial, and notably, nobody ever successfully uses the complete defense appeal. They done it. They done it. They done it over like three other times.

The documentary said it's used in like less, well, not used in, it's successful in like 1% of cases. I believe it. I always like these appeals because I think you always hear more compelling reasons why a person is innocent. Yeah. But being innocent is not a reason to get an appeal. It's not a reason to get a new trial. No. It's only errors.

Yes. I always am like, huh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But Melissa didn't get her new trial. Melissa didn't get her new trial. The state appealed the decision, and in February of 2021, the Court of Appeals weighed in again, and this time she lost in a 10-7 decision. Melissa was back on death row.

Oh, my gosh. And that was her final appeal. She has appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, but the chances that they'll actually take her case are, of course, very slim. So Texas will most likely execute Melissa Lucio. Oh, my gosh. And that's the story of Melissa Lucio, the first Hispanic woman on death row. Okay. I have never felt compelled to write anyone a letter.

After I watched this documentary, I wanted to write her a letter. Yeah. It was hard to watch some of the stuff with her family just because it does seem like, I mean, obviously, it seems like they all went through hell and it seems like the reaction seems to be just shut it down. Don't think about it. So they talked about not writing to her for years, never visiting her. Wow. Because it was too painful.

Wow. Yeah. Hmm. That is very upsetting. How do you feel about it? I think that she did not murder her daughter and there's no way she should be on death row. Yeah. Again, no one's saying she's perfect. No. I feel like sometimes when we do these cases, people are like, but did you know? And it's like, yeah, I get it. I'm not saying that this is a happy, healthy home that these children are living in by any means.

But she didn't commit murder. Nope. Yikes. Great, thank you for telling us that story. I'm so sorry. Fuck. Yeah, it's terrible. Can you tell me what you love about me now, please?

I love everything about you. Goodbye. Have we already told that on the podcast? I don't think so. I think you told me it before we started recording. Okay, so yesterday I was researching this case, and it's just so sad. Yeah. Because you keep being like, okay, and when do we get to the appeal?

Yeah, we're going to get to the, yeah, they're going to, mm-hmm. And it doesn't happen. It just seems, they're going to, mm-hmm. And it doesn't happen. It just seems like they're going to kill her. Yeah. Oh, my God. I can't even say that. So anyway, I was bummed out. Norman came down to the basement while I was watching this documentary,

and I was like, hey, tell me the reasons you love me. And he gave me a look like he was sick of my shit he was just like i love everything about you goodbye didn't seem very sincere i'll tell you that it's a shame i had to kill him well now that you talked about your favorite game ever should we move on over to the discord let's do it as as we suspected people are losing their minds that norm asked the question yeah norm made the call for questions and people are very excited to be talking to the ghost of norm oh this is not a question just a comment for you kristin vansatron says kristin you're singing in today's episode made me so happy I'm always a few words away from a bad country song.

That's really heartwarming because no one has ever said that my singing made them happy. So that's great. Oh, gosh, I don't know if I should do this. I have a lot of opinions. What is that? Oh, it's the Gabby thing. Oh, my God. Do it.

Just unload. Boy Spies of America wants to know where do you think Brian Laundrie is? Okay. Okay. Here we go. Brandy, just go ahead. We're going to have to tack on another three hours to this episode. I have vague opinions on this. I think he was never in the forest or the nature preserve area where they are searching for him in Florida where his parents say he was. I think that that was all a decoy. And his parents used that time when they were searching that area to get him into hiding somewhere. And his parents should be arrested and charged with obstruction of justice and, you know, aiding and abetting and whatever the fuck else they can charge them with wait so you think this fellow's guilty i sure do i sure do i still like how was he able to get out of anyone's sight

because they had a 10-day head start, Kristen. Yeah. Yep. Ooh. Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh. Gothbrook says, do you guys feel like this most recent missing persons case has highlighted that there's some

problematic behavior with true crime communities? Oh. Absolutely. My lord, yes. 100%. Okay. So, I thought, oh boy, see, you had your thing that got you fired up.

I've got my thing. I thought that we were all kind of on the same page. I mean, how could you not be that? Yes. Because of racism. Yeah. We pay more attention to the missing white girls, to the dead white girls. Yeah.

That's a huge problem. Yeah. And so, oh, my God, I got so fired up. I am in a true crime community. And, you know, I'm a lurker. And someone posted, and I really appreciated this post. They started posting about women of color who have gone missing. Yeah.

Who are just as important as Gabby. And, you know, of course, it's not taking anything away from her. No. It's a tragedy. Yes, absolutely. But it's also a tragedy when women of color go missing or are murdered. And receive no attention. Right. Yeah. And receive no attention.

Right. Yeah. And we're all part of the problem. Absolutely. Well, white people. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to lump everybody in. Anyway, so, you know, a lot of great comments on that post of like,

yeah, we need to do better. Yes, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like reading through like, well, then come the dumb asses who are like, I hate it when people bring race into these things. Do we have to make this about race? I mean, when you're talking about that, this case got such attention because it's a cute white girl. Absolutely. There's there has to be a discussion about race.

And you're not making it about race when you just acknowledge that racism exists. Yes. And I hope. OK. I'm in front of you you were so concise with your opinions okay you know we might have to cut all this that's fine but I would like your opinion on this okay so my personal opinion is that when someone says shit like that like I don't like it when people bring race into it.

To me, that's a little beyond ignorant. That's just some racist bullshit. And personally, I don't want that in my community. Right. And it's like, great, I get it that you feel that way. This is not for you. Right. And it's like, great, I get it that you feel that way. This is not for you. Yeah. But I know that other people are like, well, you know, we should encourage discussion and

see, I'm saying it like that's a stupid opinion. I'm sorry. I let my voice go that way. What are your thoughts? I think it's a fine line because, yes, I think it's important for people to be able to have discussions so that they can learn. But in order for that to happen, people have to be open to learning. And I think that's often not the case. See, and I –

If you're not willing to acknowledge that a problem exists, then you're never going to be open to learning about it. And that's kind of where I'm at. It's like there are – I mean, we all mess up. And, you know, if we're lucky enough to have someone correct us, that's great if we can learn from it. Yeah. But when someone comes in with something that fucking stupid, like, why are we talking about race? That's not in good faith to me. Right.

And what pisses me off about that is there's not a curse word in that. Right. There's not like a racial slur. So that shit doesn't get deleted. Right. But I think it's just as bullshit and harmful as, anyway, to me, it's like, we're all trying to have a discussion about climate change. And, you know, it's going to be a high level discussion.

We're going to, you know, try to come up with some stuff. And some idiots have infiltrated the chat and they're like, but hear me out. Does global warming exist? Right. And my feeling is like we don't have time for that shit. Yeah. Yeah. This is not the discussion for you.

Let's do the higher level work. You're not welcome in this discussion if that's where you're taking it. You know what? This is so weird. This is the problem with having a podcast. You know, I saw this all go down on social media and I thought, should I argue with the moderators? No, I should not.

No, no, I shouldn't. You know, they've got a tough job and I. They've got a tough job, and I do think that's a tough job to decide where do we draw the line, especially when you're not the one in charge. You're acting on behalf of someone else. That's really tough. So instead of just having

a discussion, I've gone on a rant. On a podcast. Anyway. So I have a lot of Anyway, that's, yeah, so I have a lot of feelings about that. I hate it.

Talisa Shitshow TCP, no idea if that's pronounced right. My sincerest apologies. Must go to places in Kansas City or must avoid places. The International Linemen's Rodeo is next month in KC

and I can't wait. I will tell you that the same place the Linemen's Rodeo is next month in KC and I can't wait. I will tell you that the same place the Linemen's Rodeo is held is where the Renaissance Festival is held. So you could stop on over and get a turkey leg.

If you can. Maybe the line will be too long. Maybe it will be too long and you can't get one. Yeah. And so you just have to look at other people eating turkey legs. Eating turkey legs. And then, like, you say you're fine about it, but you're not. Nope. Yeah, so do that.

Yeah. Comrade Kristen wants to know, have you ever sent a text to the wrong person? Oh, my God. I just did this. I've done one. This is, I did one. It was super embarrassing. Thank goodness it was just to my mom and sister.

I took a screenshot of my bank account and sent it to my mom and sister. Yeah, I've got money. What? Okay. I was horribly embarrassed. What did you say? You're like, yeah. I mean, were you doing well or not doing well? You know, it was fine, but I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry.

I did not mean to say that to you. I'm so embarrassed right now. You're like a guy at a bar who pulls out his car his car keys he's like yeah i got a mercedes yeah i don't know it's just stupid some people think it's really impressive because i'm like really rich this has been years ago and it still makes me just cringe thinking about it. It's your mom and sister. I know. It's not a big deal at all. Okay, so my thing that I just did. This is hilarious. So Brandy and I have this seat.

Oh, God. Brandy and I, you know, we call dibs on cases. Yes. So we'll be like, you know, can I get dibs on? And we'll just name a name from a case, and that's enough. Anyway, I don't need to over explain this. No, you've already done it. and then I look for like the creepiest gif I can find, preferably of like a man in a fedora blowing a kiss, like just anything kind of creepy and sexual just to really let her know that I appreciate her as well.

Okay. So what was this, like two weeks ago? You called dibs on somebody. We do the whole song and dance. And then I was like looking through the gifts. I was just like so, so excited to do it because it annoys you. I found this creepy one of John Travolta. Blowing a kiss.

Yeah. And I accidentally sent it to my writing partner. No context. Just sent her John Travolta. And I didn't realize it until she was like, well, hello. They call me Carly, says, has Brandy heard of Harry Potter puzzles and spells? It's like Best Fiends, but Harry Potter related. No.

Everyone bad news. There's just a Brandy side toll in my wall. Brandy, we've got the Zoom call with the patrons. You can't leave. I am very busy. I have to go. I love this game. It's just going to be me trying to make Mandelflorn by myself on the Zoom call while you play some game in the corner.

Great people love that. Well, should we wrap up and do Supreme Court Inductions? Absolutely. Let me get to the Supreme Court Inductions. This is the song we sing while we pull up the page. It's a million pages Don't worry, I'm here. Okay.

Once again, we are reading your names. I'm on the wrong episode. Oh my God. Oh, I'm here. Oh wait, do I need to read from the correct list? Oh shit, hang on. Oh shit, hold on just a minute. I'm going to need 15 more minutes.

I'm here now, don't worry. Anyway, we're reading your names and your favorite cookies. Kennedy Wright. Almond milk soaked Oreos. April. White chocolate macadamia nut. Soft. Chewy.

Micheia. I can't choose one. Oh, no. Is this just Joe or is it Jojo? I think it's just Joe. Joe. Hmm. Okay.

She says Afghan biscuits and then she writes, I think New Zealand needs to rename them as it's rather racist to call them Afghans. Huh. Oh, I have no idea about this. Madison Kaiser. Double chocolate chunk. Andrea Montini. Oreos. D'Andra Didi. Chocolate chip. Double chocolate chunk. Andrea Montini. Oreos.

D'Andra Didi. Chocolate chip. Claire Homan. Peanut butter cookies. Rosie Flusky. The M&S extremely chocolatey all butter milk chocolate and orange biscuits. Are you a fan of orange and chocolate? I don't know.

I do not like it. Norm loves it. I'm not into it. Norm loves it. I'm not into it. Claire Reeves. Ginger snaps. Okay, I love ginger snaps, especially in the fall. You know, I like spicy things

in the fall. Now I want ginger snaps. Damn it, Claire. Damn it. Veronica Lozano. Macaroons. Crystal Salas. Snackwell's vanilla cream sandwiches. Oh, no. Crystal Salas. Snackwell's Vanilla Cream Sandwiches.

Oh, no. Crystal, you got to branch out. Crystal, that's the most boring cookie. Have you tried, you know, let me tell you about this one. Have you tried any other cookie? Yeah, have you tried any other cookie? Crystal, I hope you have a sense of humor. Okay, Crystal, I'm here to tell you that David would tell you his favorite cookie is a Vienna finger,

which is the full fat version of the Snackwell's vanilla cream sandwiches. So you're not alone. You are not alone. Wow, that's beautiful. David's here with you. Cassandra May. Thin Mints. Brittany Slabbert.

Chocolate Chip. Amber N. Oatmeal with Chocolate Chip. Kelly B. Oatmeal Scotchies. No. Schmegalicious. Double Stuffed Golden Oreo.

Hillary with one L Good ol' sugar cookies with icing Kyla Petty Caramel delights Michelle J No cookies, chips, and cheese dip That's not a dessert, Michelle Can't we have it all?

Yeah, you don't have, it's not I'm every woman It's all in me You're not substituting chips and cheese dip for a cookie. I'm not going to dip a chip and cheese dip in a glass of milk. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. We don't seem very grateful because we roasted some people.

We did roast so many people there. You know what? I was going to say I'm sorry, but obviously that's how I feel. I respect your right to choose your own favorite cookie or no cookie. Looking at you, chips and cheese, as I will now call you. Can you please get your name legally changed to chips and cheese? Chips and cheese! We don't ask for much on this podcast.

If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the documentary The State of Texas vs. Melissa, an episode of the Wrongful Conviction podcast. Also, newspapers.com and Texas Monthly. I got my info from an episode of 48 Hours, an article for all that's interesting by William DeLong, the Orlando Sentinel and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.