Let's Go To Court! - 19: The Suicide of Conrad Roy & the Disappearance of Bobby Dunbar

Episode Date: June 6, 2018

Conrad Roy committed suicide. That much we can all agree on. But did text messages from his long-distance girlfriend, Michelle Carter play a role in his death? And if so, what sort of punishment — if any — should she face? Michelle egged him on. She encouraged him to take his life. But she wasn’t physically at the scene of his death, and she didn’t purchase any of the equipment he used to take his life. At what point are we culpable for our words? Then Kristin tells us the tragic tale of a family fishing trip gone horribly wrong. In 1912, when Lessie and Percy Dunbar took their two boys fishing in Louisiana, 4-year-old Bobby Dunbar went missing. A search ensued. They captured alligators and split open their guts, hoping to find the young boy’s remains. They even blasted the water with dynamite, thinking it might dislodge his corpse. It was no use. He was gone without a trace. But then, eight months later, Bobby turned up. But was it really Bobby? And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Whose child is this? Lost and found youth claimed by two mothers” The Tacoma Times “The Ghost of Bobby Dunbar” This American Life “Was he Bobby Dunbar?” Associated Press In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Death By Text: The Case Against Michelle Carter” episode, 48 Hours “Death By Text” by Marin Cogan, thecut.com “Read the text messages at the heart of the Michelle Carter trial” by Nik DeCosta-Klipa, Boston Globe “Michelle Carter found guilty by judge in text message suicide case” by Dan Glaun, masslive.com  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the disappearance of Bobby Dunbar. And I'll be talking about the suicide of Conrad Roy.

Oh. Did text messages make him do it? I'm sorry, I wanted to do a sound that was different than yours. We're talking about a dead person. This podcast is in poor taste. This is. I would turn back now if I were you. i'm excited for yours because i feel like i read one article about this and nothing more excellent i'm excited about it because i have very strong opinions about it and so i'm interested to

see if our opinions are the same i tend to not have many opinions about anything this will spark a great debate between us kind of like the mona lisa do not get me started kristin randy i just i just want us to go on an art heist together that's all i want it'll be fine we'll find a place to sell it so this case when, when planning for this week, popped into my head. It's a case that I followed from the beginning, but honestly hadn't even considered doing it for the podcast. It was not on my list of cases to do. Isn't that so weird how that happens? Yeah, it's super weird.

And I was just like doing some hair one day and I was like, that's the case. That's the case I need to do. And by one day, you mean two days ago? That is correct, Kristen. I pulled my info for this episode from a 48 Hours episode and articles by Maren Kogan, Nick DaCosta-Klippa, and Dan Glahn. Glahn. Sorry, Dan Glahn.

I feel sorry for Dan Glahn compared to that Clippa person. I know. I love that name. Well, that's like really cool. It is. Listen, Mr. Glom. Dan Glon. I feel for you.

I would just like to say that I have spring allergies and they're kind of kicking my ass today. like to say that i have spring allergies and they're kind of kicking my ass today i would also like to say that i was really upset about the last episode we put out because i sound like the loudest fucking mouth breather on the planet in the episode i can explain it's the old mic it sounds like i'm like tell me more Kristen. I've often wondered if Brandy was a serial killer. She puts the receiver like right to her nose.

I really like sniffing a good mic. Anyway, so I apologize if on episode 13 you guys were disturbed by my mouth breathing as i was what if some people really liked it well then i guess they found the podcast for them you wouldn't be disturbed about the people who really liked your mouth breathing uh maybe slightly but hey a fan's a fan beggars can't be choosers we'll take you all all right enough of this comedy let's get to the seriousness of this podcast. Really, this is kind of a heavy story. Okay.

Obviously, I told you it's about a suicide, so we know it's going to be sad. So maybe we need to cut the jokes and just get right. Okay. Yeah. Man. Kristen, serious business time. Don't give me that mouth breathing, Steve.

Okay. Here we go. Conrad Roy's family called him Coco. His grandfather was Conrad Sr. His father was Conrad Jr., Co. for short. So Coco just seemed to fit. He was thin but athletic in high school, and he played baseball and road crew. thin but athletic in high school and he played baseball and rode crew conrad grew up in matapoisette massachusetts which is probably not pronounced correctly because those fucking towns in

massachusetts are never pronounced phonetically well and there's definitely not a question mark but i gotta say when you said he rode crew, we all knew he was from Massachusetts. So we get it. Yes. So Massapoisette is a small coastal town 65 miles south of Boston. His grandfather owned a tugboat company there. And Roy followed in his grandfather's and father's footsteps, earning his captain's license in 2014 when he was 18 years old. So he worked for the family company.

Conrad's mother, Lynn, described him as a very happy child, but said that as he developed into a teenager, he struggled with extreme social anxiety and depression. When he was 17, he overdosed on acetaminophen in an attempt at suicide. He took the pills, then called his friend Ariana, told her what he'd done and that he was feeling sick, and she immediately contacted his parents who got him medical attention. Good. By July of 2014, Conrad's family said that he seemed to be coping with his anxiety and coming out from the dark cloud of his depression he had seen several counselors and psychiatrists and it really

seemed to be helping he seemed to be back to his more jovial youthful self on July 12th 2014 Conrad spent the day with his mom and sisters. He took his younger sisters to the beach and out for ice cream. They said that with the exception of one point in the day where he sat alone on the beach texting and appearing anxious, that his demeanor and mood had been great. Around 6 o'clock that evening, Conrad told his mother that he was leaving to go see a friend. She asked him if he'd be home for dinner, and he said he didn't think so. When Conrad wasn't back home as she was getting ready for bed that night around 1030 or 11, she texted him to check in. No response.

Then when she woke up in the middle of the night and he still wasn't home, she texted him again. And again, no response. As the sun came up on July 13th, Conrad was still not home. And now Lynn was very worried. It was completely out of character for Conrad to stay out all night. And he'd never let her worry like this. Lynn began her search for her son early that morning. She went to his friend Ariana's house. He wasn't there. She thought of all the places he might frequent and one by one, checked them off the list. After an hour of searching, Len said she felt a rush through her body like nothing she'd ever felt before. She felt her son was no longer with her.

Oh, I can't even imagine. No, that feeling. That afternoon, police located Conrad's car in the parking lot of, of a Kmart, not far from the Roy's home.

Inside the truck was a generator and Conrad's body. He had died of intentional carbon monoxide poisoning. His cell phone sat on the seat next to his lifeless body. The family was devastated. But no one really questioned the suicide, knowing his past. That is, until police got a hold of Conrad Roy's cell phone. This would prove to be a case like no other. No gun, no knife, no crucial DNA.

No gun, no knife, no crucial DNA. Only a trail of words starting with those on the cell phone. Messages with Michelle Carter. Messages that would ultimately lead to the question, can someone be held criminally responsible for another person's suicide? But first, who is michelle carter do you know who she is she's just a fellow high school student right yeah okay so michelle and conrad had met i'm sorry i thought that was a rhetorical question it was a rhetorical question but then i paused too long so you put it on me

what a good friend you're the best I had to just spread the awkwardness around okay fair enough so Michelle and Conrad had met in Florida when their families were both vacationing there a couple of years earlier they connected quickly and when they learned they only lived about 35 miles away from each other in Massachusetts, they exchanged numbers and kept in contact after their vacations ended. Roy and Carter struck up a thoroughly modern teenage romance, texting, telling each other their secrets, saying they loved each other,

but only meeting in person, as far as their families knew, a couple of times. Right. and an involuntary manslaughter charge against Carter. In the days after his death, police officers gained access to Conrad Roy's phone. They found all of his text message threads erased, except for one. The texts with Carter. What? Yeah, he had erased all the other messages on his phone except for his text exchange with michelle carter the officer leading the investigation scott gordon scrolled back through the thread to his astonishment carter appeared to have been not discouraging roy's suicidal thoughts, but egging them on.

Investigators believed Carter played a significant coercive role in the teenager's suicide. In one texting conversation, she consoled Conrad that his family would come to accept his suicide. This is what she said. I think your parents know you're in a really bad place. This is what she said. Not even yourself. Oh, my gosh. And you've hit that point.

And I think your parents know that you've hit that point. You said your mom saw a suicide thing on your computer and she didn't even say anything. I think she knows it's on your mind and she's prepared for it. What the hell? I mean, this just is so disgusting to me. And it just gets worse. So prepare yourself. Everyone will be sad for a while, but they will get over it and move on. They won't be in a depression. I won't let that happen. They know how sad you are. And they know that you are doing this to be happy. And I think they will understand and accept it.

They will always carry you in their hearts. They will move on for you because they know that's what you would have wanted. They know you wouldn't want them to be sad and depressed and be angry and guilty. They know you want them to live their lives and be happy. So they will. For you. You're right. You need to stop thinking about this and just do it. Oh my god. And Conrad responded to that chain by saying, yeah, I've been thinking about it for too long. And Carter says back, always smile. And yeah, you just have to do it you have everything you need there's no way you can fail tonight is the night it's now or never what yes so the this chain happened like in the

week leading up to a suicide okay so they exchanged don't even know, hundreds of text messages in the week leading up to his suicide. And all of them were him deciding if he was ready to do it and her saying, just get on with it. Go for it. Do it. How old was she again? She was a year younger than him.

So she was 17 and he was 18. Okay. In another exchange, Carter told Conrad not to be afraid of another suicide attempt. Carter. If you don't think about it, you won't think about failing. You'll just do it and then you'll succeed. Conrad. Right.

That's what I'm thinking about. I read so much about failed attempts gone wrong that's gotten me discouraged this is so weird it's so weird carter yeah exactly so stop doing that there's more success than there are failures conrad, are you kidding me? And Carter says, you have to look at it that way. And people only fail because they have the same mindset as you, thinking they'll fail. This is so weird. I'm thinking about this kind of out of this context. It's like an inspirational.

It is. That's exactly what it's like an inspirational it is that's exactly what it's like and it's interesting because that's kind of how the defense spends it later okay okay conrad says i really want to believe you and carter says why don't you you can't think about it you just have to do it you said you were gonna do it like i don't get you you can't think about it you just have to do it you said you were gonna do it like i don't get why you aren't and conrad says i don't get it either i don't know and carter is like getting almost like angry at this point she's like well yeah because uh she wants him to succeed yeah she says so i guess you aren't gonna do it then all that for nothing

i'm just confused like you were so ready and determined and conrad says i'm gonna eventually i really don't know what i'm waiting for i am so disturbed by these messages because someone who is having suicidal thoughts reaches out to people to be given hope. Yeah. And reasons not to do it. For help. Yeah. Not encouragement to go through with it.

Yeah. To do it. For help. Yeah. Not encouragement to go through with it. Yeah. Which his history shows that, to me, shows that that was what he was looking for. Mm-hmm.

Because he attempted suicide before. He immediately called a friend. And the friend. Did the right thing. Did the right thing and got him help. Well, yeah, I don't think you would ever talk to someone and say, I'm considering suicide and not be asking for help. Exactly. Even if you don't say, I need help. I need help.

Exactly. The fact that you would mention it to someone else. Yes. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. Another text message chain showed that Michelle Carter helped Conrad come up with the method of it for five or ten minutes, you will die within a half hour. You lose consciousness with no pain. You just fall asleep and die.

You can also just take a hose and run that from the exhaust pipe to the rear window in your car and seal it with duct tape and shirts so it can't escape. You will die within like 20 or 30 minutes all pain free what the fuck so she researched this yes for him yes and so then they made the decision like he was like well i don't think i can do the hose thing you know whatever and she's like well can you get a generator and he's like well my dad has a generator but it doesn't work and so she tells him to take it to sears and get it repaired and so he does oh yeah oh no yeah in another text carter suggested other methods of suicide if carbon monoxide poisoning didn't work.

Carter says, well, I would do the carbon monoxide. That's honestly the best way. And I know it's hard to find a tank. So if you could use another car or something like that, then do that. But next, I try a bag or hanging. Hanging is painless and takes like a second if you do it right. Uh, no. Okay, first of all, where the fuck is she getting this information?

Uh, she consulted Dr. Google, but. Yeah. I mean, I don't think hanging is painless. I don't think hanging is painless either. Okay. So now we're to the morning of july 12th okay carter sends conrad messages suggesting he commits suicide during the day that day and presses him to follow through carter says are you gonna do it today and conrad says yes carter like in the daytime conrad should i carter yeah it's less suspicious

what the fuck does that mean first of all i wonder if she's thinking your parents won't be looking for you people won't be looking for you in the daytime yeah yeah that could make sense all right i see you think just like michelle and she goes on to say you won't think about it as much and you'll get it over with instead of waiting until the night and conrad says yeah then i will like where like where should i go like an enclosed area? And Carter says, go in your truck and drive in a parking lot somewhere. To a park or something. Do it early. Do it now. Like, early.

What the hell? And Conrad says, like, why am I so hesitant lately? Like, two weeks ago, I was willing to try everything. And now I'm worse. Really bad. And i'm not following through it's eating me inside it's like he's saying that a couple weeks ago he was like feeling even more in a depression he was even more ready to commit suicide and now he's like not thinking he wants to go through with it which which apparently is not the right answer. No, because this is what Carter says back.

Oh God. You're so hesitant because you keep overthinking it and keep pushing it off. You just need to do it. Conrad, the more you push it off, the more it will eat at you. You're ready and prepared. All you have to do is turn the generator on and you will be free and happy.

No more pushing it off. No more waiting. And Conrad says, you're right. I'm going to do it today. And Carter says, you promise? Ew. I mean, what the hell? What the hell?

Terrible. And Conrad says, I promise I have to now. No. And Carter says, like right now? Conrad says, where do I go? And Carter says, you can't break a promise shut up and just go in a quiet parking lot or something these texts that I just read you were the ones Conrad was exchanging when his sisters remembered him sitting on the beach looking anxious alone you can't break a promise you can't break a promise

what the fuck is wrong with this girl i'm excited is not the word but i'm eager to hear more about her yeah it's clearly something's up with her. Yes. Something. The defense has one theory about what's up with her. Sure. I have a different theory. Well, I'm sure you're more knowledgeable. that evening when michelle hadn't heard from conrad in a little bit she began texting him again to make sure he was going to follow through carter are you gonna do it now conrad i just don't know how to leave them you know

I just don't know how to leave them, you know? Is he talking about his family? His family. Sagamow's family. Carter, say you're going to the store or something. Oh, my God. Conrad, like, I want them to know that I love them. Carter, they know. That's the one thing they definitely know. You're overthinking.

Conrad, I know I'm overthinking. I've been overthinking for a while now. Carter, I know. You just have to do it like you said. Are you going to do it now? Conrad, I still haven't left yet Carter, why? Conrad, leaving now Carter, okay, you can do this Conrad, okay, I'm almost there That was the last text message Conrad Roy would ever send in a separate text to a friend Carter admitted that she had been on the phone with Conrad as he

died phone records show two 45 minute phone calls between the two around the time of his death at one point as the generator was running he began to feel sick and got out of his death. At one point, as the generator was running, he began to feel sick and got out of his truck because he was scared. And she told him to get back in. A text to her friend said,

if it weren't for me, he would still be alive. I could have stopped him, but I told him to get back in yeah whoa yeah prosecutors like kristin were stunned when investigators turn these messages over to them. Yeah. To them, the messages showed that Carter had firsthand knowledge of Roy's suicidal thoughts, and instead of attempting to assist him or notify his family or school officials,

Carter strongly influenced his decision to take his own life, encouraged him to commit suicide, and guided him in his engagement of activities, which led to his death. Guided him in his engagement of activities? That's the official. I believe that's from the official probable cause statement. Okay. Someone has a way with words. Okay. Someone has a way with words.

On February 5th, 2015, Michelle Carter was charged with involuntary manslaughter and the death of Conrad Roy. What would follow would be a lengthy legal battle, fueled by the fact that Massachusetts is one of 10 states that does not have laws against assisted suicide. And the fact that Michelle was an hour away from Conrad when he died. The road to justice would be complicated. And fucking long. Carter's lawyers argued that her texts were free speech and didn't cause Conrad to kill himself and that no actual crime had been committed. That fight went all the way to the Supreme Supreme Judicial Court, which is Massachusetts highest appellate court. That court, in a strongly worded decision, said the grand jury heard evidence suggesting that Carter engaged in a, quote, systematic campaign of coercion that targeted Roy's insecurities and that her instruction to get back in his truck in the final moments of his life was a direct casual link to his death. Causal link? It says, yes, that's correct.

Thank you. It was a causal link to his death. It was a casual link. It was a casual link. It was like, yeah, yeah. Flip flops.

Uh-huh. Like one of those like, you know, button-ups but with short sleeves. Sure. Yeah. Sure. Clearly it was a direct causal link, Kristen.

Oh, excuse me. that there was probable cause to show that the coercive quality of the defendant's verbal conduct overwhelmed whatever willpower the 18-year-old victim had to cope with his depression, and that but for the defendant's admonishments, pressure, and instructions, the victim would not have gotten back into the truck and poisoned himself to death. Justice Robert Cordy wrote for the court in a unanimous ruling. What do you think about that? Yeah, it's interesting to hear all of this stuff because, like I said, I think I read one or two articles about this. And I always felt like people were too hard on her um because

i thought well god they're just words but now that i know more about what was said and now that i know that she told him to get back in the car to to me, that's the part that's, that's the kicker. Yeah. Yep. So I, I'm with the judge, I think. Yeah, I am too. Finally, in June of 2017, nearly three years after Conrad Roy's death, Michelle's trial would begin. rod roy's death michelle's trial would begin michelle's attorneys fearing how the texts would play in court uh-huh advised her to waive her trial to a jury waived her right to a jury trial

for fuck's sake it's written correctly i just can't fucking read we're too tired we discussed this before we started recording yes you stayed up way too late too late working on this episode and you had two drinks last night kristin i had two whiskeys on the rocks and because i am old i woke up at one in the morning so dehydrated and miserable. You would have thought I had been like fall down drunk. We're just living our best lives here today, Kristen. I'm just going to hit that again

so that it's understood for everyone. I also want to note both of our ponytails are askew today. We're not rocking the cute ponytail that you were rocking last time we recorded. I'm going to be honest.

I did this ponytail yesterday. Mine was... Oh, well, now you fixed yours. Well, it just kind of falls down a little bit.

Man, F you. Okay. Mine is not that easily fixed okay back to court kristen gotcha i'm with you michelle's attorneys fearing how the text would play advised her to waive her right to a jury trial, as it turns out. Not to waive at the jury as the trial went by. Yeah, they're like, look, these text messages look bad. You should probably waive and smile.

You should probably waive and maybe blow kisses. Do something to balance this out. So she did, and she put her hands in the judge's hands and said, I even read this through because I knew I wrote it so late last night. I read this through three times this morning. I think it's time to pause and be honest with our listeners.

So I have summertime obligations this summer. That sounds really cryptic and weird. I've got a writing course that I'm doing. And so we are recording like two of these a week. And we've been doing fine. Until today today but it's like it all piled on top of us today and now we're like we can't do this anymore okay well we'll figure it out away i'm very sorry for this episode this is even less professional than our other usual which is oh man that is rough. She put her fate, as it turns out, in the hands of the judge. Gotcha.

Judge Lawrence. Moniz. Moniz. Moniz. Moniz-y. M-O-N-I-Z. Yeah, I don't know i'm gonna go with moniz moniz moniz all right we'll go with moniz that's what kristen we'll do what kristen wants it's called let's go to court with kristen pitts just put your hands in my hands

at trial prosecutor mary claire flynn said of carter she assisted and devised and advised and planned his suicide she told him that once he was dead he would be happy and free on july 12 2014 as his truck was filling with carbon monoxide. He was scared. He got out. It was the defendant on the other end of the phone who ordered him back in and listened for 20 minutes as he cried in pain and took his last breath and died.

Oh, my. So, one of her friends testifies at trial that she told her that she called him and that he answered, but that he didn't say anything. And she could just hear him like gasping and moaning in the background and that she listened for 20 minutes. Ew. Yeah. Yes. Terrible.

The prosecutor goes on to say, the alleged weapon in this case, Michelle Carter's own words. The prosecution argued that though she was 35 miles away at the time of Conrad's death, that her virtual presence caused him to take his life. Michelle showed little emotion at the trial. Her defense relied on psychiatrist Peter Bregan, who was not treating Michelle, but attempted to explain her behavior.

Michelle, but attempted to explain her behavior. He testified that she was involuntarily intoxicated by an antidepressant drug she started taking three months earlier called Celexa. This is what he says. She's not thinking she's doing something criminal. She's found a way to help her boyfriend, testified Bregan. She was enmeshed in a delusion she was unable to form intent because she was so grandiose you'll see grandiosity her deciding with him that she can help him he wants to die he wants to go to heaven and he doesn't want to hurt his family and she believes that she can do all of that so that is what i'm saying kind of sides with what you were saying earlier how she's like cheering him on you know kind of because she according to her defense feels like she's helping him by assisting him to complete suicide. Right. She's helping him reach for the stars and achieve his dreams.

She's the Tony Robbins of suicide. Suicide. Yep. No. No. No. I believe, and this is what the prosecution's kind of take was, was that she was doing it for attention.

To be the girl whose boyfriend died. Because after he died, she reached out to all these friends and was like, oh, my God, I can't believe I couldn't save him. I tried everything to save him. She organized a fundraiser in his name in her town, which was an hour away from where he lived didn't tell his family or anything about it so who did it raise funds for national suicide prevention or something like that yeah okay right around this same time i think there was an episode of glee that dealt with one of the characters dying the actor died in real life and they wrote his death into the okay into the storyline of glee and there's a quote in glee when the guy's girlfriend is like we had our future

planned out and someone says oh did he know that you had had your future planned out and she said of course he knew and she i didn't write this down i wish i had but she michelle carter take took this exact quote from glee and text it to a friend of hers as if it was her own thoughts and opinions it's disgusting i completely think she was doing this for attention that's interesting yeah okay according to the prosecution michelle carter helped put conrad roy in his grave it was a felony and she caused him serious bodily harm according to the defense she didn't know what she was doing she was psychotic delusional involuntarily intoxicated from taking the antidepressants alexa so on this episode of 48 hours they bring in like a mental some mental health expert sure and she's

like i've never heard of involuntarily intoxicated that's not something that exists okay that's what i was wondering they created this notion for this defense. They shouldn't be allowed to do that. I know. Yes. Okay. She's like, that is not an accepted belief in the mental health world. It's not a condition that exists. This expert that they used in court, this Dr. Bregan, psychiatrist Peter Bregan, he doesn't believe his own medical beliefs are that depression is not a real physical chemical thing in someone's brain.

And he believes. Yes. Which is not the accepted belief of the mental health world. No. Yes. I don't know where the mental health world. Yes. I don't know where they found this expert. Yeah. But he does not believe that.

And so then, so then he doesn't believe in the need for antidepressants. Oh God. Yes. Yeah. It's crazy. So he was the one who put forth this theory that she was in antidepressants had messed with her.

Yeah. Grief. Yes. Yeah. Okay. After six days of testimony during which Carter's friends and acquaintances described her social social insecurities, struggles with an eating disorder and desperate need for validation, as well as the potentially incriminating accounts of phone calls that she had had with Roy. So the ones that I mentioned earlier, as he sat in his truck that night. Closing arguments began.

So six days this went on, they brought on those medical experts, they brought on some friends that knew her, talked about her personality, talked about her battles, talked about how she was always looking for people to validate her life and, you know, was always attention seeking. So closing arguments then begin. Defense attorney Joe Cataldo said in his closing argument, the evidence actually establishes that Conrad Roy caused his own death. Conrad had attempted suicide before. The decision to die was Conrad's, not Michelle's. He created the situation, Your Honor. She didn't create this situation of somebody who said, I don't want to kill myself. I have no thoughts of that. Everything's good with me. And somehow trick him or bribe him or threaten him to do something as drastic as suicide which i actually think is a fairly valid argument yeah she didn't

take somebody who had no thoughts of suicide at all and somehow make them kill himself i don't think she's solely responsible which yeah i would agree because i don't think she's solely responsible, which. Yeah, I would agree. Because I don't think she could go up to someone who was not suffering from depression and anxiety and convince them to kill themselves. But did she prey on someone who was having. Hell yeah. Absolutely. One hundred percent. I guess there goes our shot at a really engaging battle and discussion. The defense finished by saying, most importantly, Michelle was nowhere near Conrad when he killed himself.

There's no evidence that Michelle Carter has any physical actions whatsoever in this case. Which is true. She wasn't there. But her voice voice was she was egging him on yeah the prosecution closed by saying although she wasn't physically present really what'd you write no i wrote it right but that's basically what I just said. Although she wasn't physically present, she was in his ear. She was in his mind. She was on the phone, and she was telling him to get back in the car, even though she knew he was going to die.

She absolutely knew it was wrong, and she absolutely caused the death of this 18-year-old boy. And I ask you to find her guilty. So another text message that she sent to a friend was she sent it in September. So he died in July, sent this to a friend in September, and said basically, the police are looking at his messages. If they find my messages, I'm done. I will go to jail. so she knew what she did was wrong oh yeah how'd you decide you wanted the judge's last name pronounced i don't even remember moniz moniz judge moniz deliberated for three days before rendering his verdict. In a statement before his ruling, Moniz said that it was the phone calls between Roy and Carter as he sat in his truck, not the chain of text messages in the prior days that caused Roy's death. So that's exactly what you said.

Yeah. It's the phone call where she says where he's gotten out of the truck and she tells him to get back in and when she listens to him die no that can't be legal yeah just listen to someone do that yep he found michelle carter guilty stating that she caused a dangerous environment and under massachusetts law she had a duty to save him yeah yeah and he said when he gave this judgment he cited a case of um these like vagrants who started a fire in a warehouse um and then didn't tell anyone and the fire got out of control and like six firefighters died in the fire.

And so they created a hazardous environment, a dangerous hazardous environment, did not do their duty to warn anybody about it. And it resulted in people's death. Okay. You don't like that comparison um i i okay but think about it this way uh-huh okay she's the one that suggested the generator she's the one that told him to get it fixed she created the poisonous environment inside his car no he i mean

yes she told him to go get those things yes she told him and that was all wrong yes but she didn't physically start the generator right yes i was about to sing she didn't start the fire consider yourself lucky that you cut me off but yeah um that other example i think is a much more clear example of wrongdoing. Yes, I would agree. Whereas this one is slightly more murky. Yes, I would agree.

Yeah. Okay. Judge Moniz went on to say she instructed him to get back in a truck, which she had reason to know has become a toxic environment to human life. has become a toxic environment to human life. She also had a legal obligation to call for help once her actions put Roy's life in danger, and she failed to do so. Ms. Carter took no action. She admitted in subsequent texts

that she did nothing. At sentencing seven weeks after being convicted of voluntary manslaughter, Michelle Carter was met with the hostile words of Conrad's family delivered from their victim impact statements. Conrad's sister Camden said, not a day goes by without him being my first thought waking up and my last thought going to bed. Conrad's father said, Michelle Carter exploited my son's weakness and used him as a pawn in her own well-being. She has not shown any remorse. Where was her humanity? Yeah. Where was her humanity?

Yeah. In a statement read by the prosecutor because she found it too difficult to speak, Conrad's mother Lynn said, I do not know where to begin. I pray that his death will save lives someday. I pray that a law comes forth so that another mother does not have to endure what I am. I do not believe that another can go on to encourage someone to take their life and it can be okay. And I agree with that. And I think that the difficult thing in this case

was that there was no law against this in Massachusetts. There's no law against this in Massachusetts. And I'm not saying, this is not an argument about that. I was going to say to me, this is not assisted. It's not. I agree. Exactly. I agree. But that's the legal argument that's being used here. Okay. I agree that this is not assisted suicide. I agree that this is way closer to bullying than this is bullying that that resulted in someone's death. Yeah. The prosecution asked for a sentence of seven to Yes. The defense asked for probation. Mm-hmm. Do you know what she got? I don't remember exactly, but I remember thinking, wow, that's a lot. What'd she get?

She was sentenced to two and a half years in prison. Oh, well, then never mind. I must have not remembered that right. I think she got off so easy. Listen to this okay she was sentenced to two and a half years in prison and she only had to serve 15 months of that after the 15 months the remaining part of her sentence would be um uh what's the fucking word? Commuted? Time served. Nope.

None of those words. Basically held. Without a jail free. It would be held as long as she completed her probation, which she got five years of probation. It was suspended. The rest of it was suspended. Pending she completes her probation without problem, it goes away. Wow. Wow.

Yes. Additionally, the judge granted the defense's motion to stay the sentence for the appeals process, which means that Michelle will remain on supervised release until her state appeals are exhausted. on supervised release until her state appeals are exhausted. Michelle has yet to serve a day of her sentence as she is still in the process of appealing. Wow. I just cannot wrap my brain around that sentence. And how come?

How come it's okay for her sentence to be stayed while she appeals? Why isn't she serving it why she appeals my guess because she's young right is that she's young and because the sentence is so short 15 months yeah that she would serve all of it before her appeals are complete and so should she serve all that time and then her appeals are granted she's erroneously served 15 months in prison. See, I totally get that. Yeah. Yeah.

Did she ever apologize to the family? No. Whoa. No. No. Conrad Roy's family has filed a $4.2 million wrongful death suit against Michelle Carter. And it's still working its way through the legal system. Yeah.

Holy crap. So what do you think? Can someone be criminally responsible for another person's suicide? I think it should be a really, really high bar. Mm-hmm. And I think that high bar, I think she met that bar by telling him to get back in the car and listening to him die. Yep, I agree. Now, the stuff before that, that's really, really bad.

It's terrible, but I don't think it. Yeah, I agree. But I don't think you should serve jail time. No, exactly. I don't think those prior text messages, while they show what kind of person she is. Yeah, I mean, she's a sack of shit. But I don't think it directly resulted in his death. Yeah.

The thing that directly resulted in his death was him getting out of the car and her telling him to get back in and then listening on the phone as he died and not making the choice to call his parents,

call authorities. Yeah. Get him help. Do you really think she just wanted attention? I do. That is so gross. Yeah.

She wanted to be the girl whose boyfriend died. they weren't that close they didn't they hadn't seen each other in over a year they sent these text messages so there wasn't any this is my feeling there wasn't any real loss there to her there was way more attention to be gained okay and they said she came to the funeral and she played this grieving widow part. His family barely knew who she was. Yeah. They were appalled when she sat right by them in the family section.

Whoa. Yeah. Yeah, that's bad. Yeah's attention yeah oh that's so gross yeah thanks a lot sorry for that downer i'm sorry for my poor delivery of it no you didn't i i'm just glad that for once you messed up on your words because I'm always the one who does it. So the fact that you did it, I was like, here comes my steak. Very excited. Would you like to hear a bunch of mistakes from me now?

I can't wait. Do you know this story? No. You don't know this story? Not from your intro. Oh, my God. Brandy. Am I going to be on Do you know this story? No. You don't know this story? Not from your intro. Oh, my God. Brandy. Am I going to be on the edge of my seat?

This is a crazy story. And I'm not going to tell you kind of where I got it from until the end because I'm afraid it might jog people's memories. You got it. You're going to keep us in the dark. Darn right I am. Okay am okay okay i'm loving it i'm so excited august 1912 oh i love it when you do the old timey ones because we don't have to worry about anybody coming back and getting pissed at us and nobody lives five blocks away no one's gonna text us about this so lessee and percy dunbar go on a fishing trip to louisiana with their two boys

bobby and alonzo on the trip four-year-old bobby goes missing and his disappearance became national news there was this huge swamp i already messed up yes there was vindication There was this huge swamp. I already messed up. Yes. Vindication. So there was this huge search of the swamp where they'd been fishing, but they could only find. You could have sold that. I know I could have. I could have.

I could have said. It was a huge swamp and they searched it. I know. Boy. Man. Missed opportunity, Kristen. Too bad. could have said there was a huge swamp and they searched it i know boy man missed opportunity kristen too bad that ship has sailed on the huge swamp so they could only find his footprints a lot of people feared that bobby had drowned or was he eaten by an alligator that's exactly the other thing they feared. That is exactly, because like this area was teeming with alligators.

That was my immediate thought when you said he disappeared in Louisiana. I'm like, kid got, it was either a gator or a vampire. So they, I mean, this is unreal. So they captured a bunch of alligators and they sliced their bellies open

looking for the remains of a little cat. Yes. Then they blasted the lake with dynamite, hoping to dislodge his corpse. What? People went nuts over this. The things that they would do in 1912. I know. The things that they would do in 1912.

I know. Lessie and Percy Dunbar didn't give up hope, even though so many people were like, sorry for your loss. He's gator food. Yeah. One story I saw said they offered a $6,000 reward for anyone who could find their child. Which in today's money. Yes! I looked looked it up, is about $150,000. Another story I saw said that the town raised $1,000. Anyway, there was some reward money to be had.

Then, eight months after he went missing, they found him. Holy shit. He was in Mississippi. What? Alive? Yeah. Yeah. He was with this kind of oddball guy named William Walters.

William was a traveling handyman who would tune pianos and church organs, and he would, like, stay in people's homes while he did the work you know kind of traveled around yeah and you know everyone was kind of on the lookout for this four-year-old boy and there William Walters was traveling with a four-year-old boy who matched the description of Bobby Dunbar police immediately questioned him and felt certain that they'd found their guy. But William was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you've got this all wrong. This is not Bobby Dunbar. This is Charles Anderson, aka Bruce Anderson. He went by Bruce. Bruce is a nickname for Charles? I imagine that's like the middle name okay you know all right i'm totally making that up but anyway he went by bruce so william's like this boy's mom

is julia anderson she works for my family as a field hand and she's letting him travel with me police didn't buy it yeah we were like, no way, dude. There's no way a mother would let her four-year-old son travel around with some handyman guy. So they arrested William, and they called the Dunbars. The Dunbars rushed to Mississippi. They're so excited. They're hoping and praying that this is their son.

They get to Mississippi. They're face-to-face with a little boy. that this is their son. They get to Mississippi. They're face to face with a little boy. It's not their son. Well, they're not sure. It's been eight months. They're under a lot of stress. They're looking at him. Leslie, in particular, was like, I can't say for certain that this is Bobby.

Then it's not your kid. Don't you think? Wouldn't you just know? See, and that became part of the national debate. Like, wouldn't you just know? But other people were like, it's been eight months. Kids' faces change so much. No.

No. No. Nope. Okay, so get this. I'm going to pause here and say that this was a different age of journalism where some people would just make shit up for fun. Excellent. You just embellished a little bit as well.

I'm just kidding. Yeah, so I took a page from that book. And keeping with the time. I was there and I saw the whole thing. No, so it's hard to nail down exactly what everyone's reactions were. In rides, Jane the pig lady on her mule. And she's like, I saw it all. Oh, and I lost my moccasin in the swamp.

That's right. Take me to court. I'll be on my stretcher so some newspaper said the little boy recognized you didn't understand that reference please visit episode i don't remember what episode that was it was the one about um the tush doctor and the Torn Love Letters. Yes. Episode something. Seven, maybe. So some newspaper account said that the little boy recognized his mom right away. There was this dramatic tearful embrace,

but most of the newspapers were like, it was a little more uncertain. And when I'm trying to find the truth, usually it's the less exciting version. So we're going to go with that. Yeah. The next day, Leslie asked if she could give the boy a bath. Because she knew where all of Bobby's moles and scars should be. Yeah.

So during that bath, everything matched up. What? Yeah. She was thrilled. This was her was her this is her boy yeah how did he react to them did he say he was their son so it seems like they both they all had kind of the same reaction of just like being a little wary of one another and just kind of studying each other okay but you know when the moles and scars skeptical okay to say the least okay i'm uh smelling a little changeling action here something smell alligator do you know you know the story of the changeling no oh what are you talking about the

the walter whatever case from you know somewhere in chicago maybe i got nothing okay okay they made a movie about it to start angelina jolie oh it was the chicken coop murders is the basis of that story. You don't know that either? No, no. Well, for fuck's sake, I guess that's why I know what I'm doing next week. Yeah, maybe you need to do that next week. Jesus.

So police had found Bobby Dunbar. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I am going to reserve my jubilation uh huh because I don't feel like because then

your episode's over and the end well the people of Louisiana didn't reserve their jubilation because they threw him a parade

they threw him a parade yes they were so excited because everyone thought he was dead but then he was found they've clearly never seen the changeling.

Starring Angelina Jolie and John Malkovich. I would swear you used to work at a blockbuster or something, the way you know movies. So they brought him through town on a fire truck. There was a band. Everyone was overjoyed. Big happy day. Everyone was thrilled. Except Julia Anderson.

Julia was the woman who Walter Williams said was the boy's mother. Yeah. So she comes forward and she's like, what are you people talking about? What are you doing? That's my kid kid so she's claiming it's her kid yes she says that that story is true see reserve that jubilation i fucking knew it so she said and by the way i didn't tell walter williams that he could take my son for as long as he wanted i told him he he could take Bruce for a two day trip. That was it. So the media was like, plot twist. They were so excited. Yeah. A New Orleans paper actually paid for Julia to come down and identify the boy. They were like, all right, prove it. He's yours. We we're gonna put you give you like a little kiddie

lineup here so police set julia up with five boys who were all around the age of her son and of course you know they they gave her individual time with each of them yeah and they brought the boy in who who everyone was saying was Bobby Dunbar. The boy didn't say anything. He didn't light up. He didn't hug her or say, hi, mom. He had no reaction to her. She studied him for a long time. And then she turned to the police and she said, is this the boy?

And the police didn't say anything. They're like, that's not how this works. What the fuck is happening that people don't recognize their kid? So she said, I don't know. I'm not sure. I can't say for certain that this is my son. I do not understand this one bit. Yeah.

Bit. Yeah. By that point, she had not seen him for like 15 months, as I understand it. So the next day, she was allowed to see him again. And this time she saw him without clothes. And she was like, I'm OK. I'm pretty sure this is Bruce. I'm pretty sure this is my kid but it was too late uh word had already gotten out that she hadn't recognized him for certain the day before and unlike lessie and percy who didn't recognize their son right away

people attacked julia information came out about her, that she'd had three children, all out of wedlock, and she couldn't even recognize this kid who was supposed to be her own. She was scum. She was lower than dirt. Julia was devastated because earlier that year,

one of her children had died and the other one she'd had... She recognized that one? Whoa. Boy. I am so... I do not understand not being able to recognize someone that you think is your own kid you think you'd be able to spot your child well

speaking of someone who doesn't have any fucking children i could spot my dog i'll tell you that but you put five bulldogs in a lineup and i will 100% pick out my own bulldog. After a bath or like just right away? Right away. Okay. Yep. So earlier that year, one of her children. I don't even need to see him naked.

Put him in a dog sweater. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. I mean, you'd want to see him naked. Okay. Pause for an inappropriate dog story. Oh, gosh. I'm so excited.

This is so bad. I don't know if I've told you this before. When Norman and I were first first dating he was over at my apartment one day and he was rubbing peanut on her belly you know she loves belly rubs yeah and just naturally for whatever reason peanut doesn't have a lot of hair on like her crotch area common in short-haired dogs. Only long-haired dogs have hair in their crotch regions. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

It's my experience. And I look at a lot of dog crotches. I look at a lot of dog crotches. So Norm turns to me and he says, why doesn't Peanut have any hair here? And I thought it was such a strange question in kind of an accusatory tone so i decided to lean into it i said i don't know i just like the way it looks

the look on his face i prefer all my dog crotches shaved yeah i just it's part of the grooming process for me anyway he was horrified yes my dog also he is short-haired he doesn't he doesn't have hair on his crotch because you shave it once a week that's right okay that's how i like it i hear that this is disgusting it's just taking a weird turn anyway back to this child oh yeah this is fucking missing kids nobody knows what kids there's kristen I am just upset with this tale you're telling me.

Can't you get some better parents in your story? Sorry, this is what we got. So like I said, earlier that year, one of Julia's children had died. The other one she'd had to place for adoption. Bruce was all she had left. And now he was gone. And she believed the Dunbars had taken him. She didn't have a lot of options.

She had no money. She couldn't sue. She couldn't use DNA testing because it was freaking 1913. So she went back to North Carolina childless. Oh my gosh. The media pitted the two mothers against one another. They painted Lessie as the pretty, well-off, sophisticated woman and Julia as a hick with no morals. Wow.

They implied that Julia was a prostitute and said she was illiterate. Neither of which was true. Wow. Okay, so this morning i was kind of going through my notes for this and i realized that i only specified that the illiteracy was wrong because i think it made me so mad because i was like no she was an avid reader yeah and then i realized most people would probably be more offended by this notion that she was a prostitute. But I love to read, so I was worried about that one. Yes.

So I'm going to read to you from two different newspaper articles because I think it says so much about how the press treated her. The Dunbar child had every advantage, toy, and pleasure known. The illegitimate Anderson child had nothing, except perhaps a stick for a toy. What the fuck? Yeah. You know. Dorothy only had a stick and she did

just fine. She turned out great. Dorothy? On the Golden Girls. Her favorite toy as a child was a stick named Scout. Really really you remember this i need to watch some more golden girls i thought i had all the episodes memorized evidently not sophia took it away and gave it to her sister gloria that's not okay no dorothy was pissed about it i've got another one and this one's worse. Oh, no. Worse than the stick.

Wait for it. This is unbelievable. Another article was written right after Julia said she didn't recognize Bruce. So maybe you'll be on this reporter's side. Mm-hmm. Terrible mother. Uh-huh. It said, animals don't forget, but this big, coarse country woman, several times a mother, she forgot. Big, coarse country woman, several times a mother, she forgot.

Big, coarse country woman? She cared little for her young. Children were only regrettable incidents in her life. She hopes her son isn't dead, just as she hopes the cotton crop will be good this year. Wow. Okay, I don't agree with that reporter. That's fucking terrible. i do agree that animals recognize their own fucking children so what's wrong with these two human people that couldn't

recognize their child human people that's right and i would say three people even though everyone always says it's the two mothers yeah the father wasn't yeah yeah what was his name uh percy percy yeah and then where's the fucking write-up about Percy, you know, was a big country man. Yeah. Many a father. Well, no. Okay. Lessie is Percy's.

Yes, yes, yes. I got it. Okay. I was being dramatic, Kristen. I did not misunderstand what you said. It flew way over my head. But whoever was Bruce's father wasn't coming forward yeah um some people said that william walter might have been the father or that like maybe one of william walter's brothers yeah anyway

so how's my ponytail it's askew man i mean how's it now is it better better okay the two of us we didn't bring our a game that this is not a video people will be like oh look away look at those coarse country women surely they've been several times another several times several times a mother man that is a weird insult it is but like it's funny because you know exactly what it means oh yeah we we get it yeah we totally get it so julia didn't have the money to sue the dunbars but she did have a ray of hope william walters was about to go on trial for kidnapping so this was her shot if she could get a jury of hope. William Walters was about to go on trial for kidnapping.

So this was her shot. If she could get a jury to believe that the boy was her son and that William hadn't kidnapped him, then surely she'd get him back. Yeah. The trial took place in Louisiana, and the vast majority of people seemed to believe that William Walters was guilty. Why did I write seem to believe? william walters was guilty why did i write seem to believe they believed they for sure believed a huge crowd attended really a week trial um this i love these old timey ones yeah because this was like the only entertainment and it was the best entertainment yeah people wrote songs about it what yep They sold souvenirs to commemorate the trial.

They cut up a crab apple tree and take slabs. Once again, go listen to that old episode. It's a good one. No, so the souvenirs were postcards. And at the bottom of the postcard, it said, famous kidnapping trial. And then there was this picture of william walters with his big handlebar mustache and then below him is this like oval picture of bobby dunbar so this cute little

boy what's wrong i don't see anybody okay do you see somebody no i thought i saw something move over there though just on edge because i can't get through an episode that somebody coming to your fucking door i know i should have a clown come to the door oh i would die i would literally die right here it'd be the end of the podcast oh well okay i can't do that so i would never come to your house well obviously you're dead yeah hey maybe i'd go to prison for it i would haunt maybe they'd be like you should have known yeah yes there is a casual link to the clown was also wearing khakis and even then you died of shock

those Sperry's boat shoes but he had the full face which is really alarms you and his Sperry's were like oversized he'd painted them red. So people were super excited about this trial.

When the prosecution made a good point, the crowd cheered. They got like big foam fingers. They might as well have. Seriously, anytime the prosecution made a good point, they would cheer. That is nuts. Yes. Now, why do you think that's nuts um because that's not the behavior that's supposed to go on in a and i think that the jury would be easily swayed by that ding ding ding ding yeah yeah it's definitely

biasing the jury the way i view it is like if you were supposed to make a decision at the Price is Right, you know, you've got the whole audience shouting answers at you. You're not thinking for yourself. You're not trusting your own judgment. Anyway. Nonetheless, William Walters

had a pretty good defense because the people of Poplarville, Mississippi, where he'd been caught, felt pretty strongly that he wasn't traveling with Bobby Dunbar. Yeah. The reason they felt that way was because 14 people testified at trial that they saw William with the little boy before Bobby Dunbar went missing. I was going to ask that. How long had whatever this kid's name been with him?

Bruce. Charles. Charles Bruce. A.K.A. Bruce. whatever this kid's name been with him bruce charles charles bruce aka bruce so they were like this little boy is bruce it's not bobby yeah the defense also called six people who knew the dunbars and those people said this isn't bobby we remember what bobby looked like see him other people remember what fucking bob Bobby looks like why don't his parents fair question I will say though

your child is missing it's been eight months you've started getting sympathetic you started to give up hope that your child is alive and then you hear we found your child's alive and then you hear we found your child i think that i understand like trying to make yourself believe that it's your child or

questioning if you see a kid you're like i don't think it's my kid but there'd be something inside that would make you want to believe it yeah kid yeah sure all right fine i see that point do you feel the same way about julia like she says her son is missing um no because i think it's julia's kids okay i don't think it's bobby dunbar i think it's bruce okay we shall see julia gave her testimony and i saw somewhere and I swear that she was not feeling well. So she gave her testimony on a stretcher. What the fuck?

Apparently this was a thing. Again, go back to that old episode. Yeah. Someone gives testimony on a stretcher. Wow. Yeah. So she, of course, said she let Bruce go on this trip with William. There was no kidnapping.

Meanwhile, the prosecution put forth their theory that William had kidnapped Bobby and Bruce. What? And that Bruce had died along the journey. And then he got a replacement kid? No, that they were there together. Oh. Don't be silly. Did anybody ever see him

with two kids? I don't know. I don't know if they had anyone to corroborate that. So the jury deliberated and they found William guilty of kidnapping. I disagree. He was sentenced to life in prison.

Wow. Yeah. So that meant that in effect you know that was bobby dunbar because he was in trouble for kidnapping and he had kidnapped bobby dunbar so bobby dunbar was bobby dunbar i'm not buying it he's not bobby dunbar. He's Bruce. Been Bruce this whole time. Sorry, the look on your face. So after William had been in prison for two years, he appealed. For several reasons, including what you predicted, which was like um this is not an environment for a jury to make an unbiased decision but also for the judge giving improper instructions to the jury

william was granted a new trial excellent excellent what do you think happened he probably got found guilty again no interestingly you know his defense is ready to go. They're ready to fight this thing. They kind of felt like maybe we can get a fair shake this time. If we're in an environment where people aren't hooping and hollering, we can do this. But the prosecutor's office was like, no, thanks. That first trial was super expensive. They dropped the charges? They just let him go.

But that... Then who's the kid? Bobby Dunbar. It was decided. He's not Bobby Dunbar, Kristen. How dare you? How dare you? So that was that.

You know, it's Bobby Dunbar. He grew up. Raised by L by Leslie and Percy, later shared some memories of the kidnapping. And he remembered these things vividly, that William beat him, dyed his hair to disguise him, and forbid him from ever revealing his name to the people they encountered. Here's the other thing. Okay okay explain your face right now you look like you just bit into a lemon i think he's making it up

why because he's not bobby fucking dunbar yeah but why would he make it up though to sell it to who his? His parents. Everybody. His parents already believed it. Everybody already believed it. I'm not buying it. Okay. The other thing he said that you will not buy?

He said he remembered the other little boy. No, he didn't. He didn't mention Bruce by name, but he said he remembered another boy being with him on their journey. And he remembered that boy dying. False memories.

Okay. So the whole thing was horribly traumatic. Bobby didn't like to talk about it. Eventually he grew up, got married, had four children. His wife kept a scrapbook tucked away with all the articles okay you are like squinting at me you are giving me the meanest look i think this case is bullshit so bobby dunbar got fucking eaten by alligators and then they took away this poor lady's kid he's bruce if you insist and then they took away this poor lady's kid. He's Bruce.

If you insist. So she kept all the articles about the kidnapping. And these stories got told enough that it became part of the Dunbar family legend. That, you know, oh, Grandpa was taken away by these people and they got him back. And oh, my gosh, it's this crazy story. No one in the family was more fascinated by this story than Bobby's granddaughter, Margaret. So in 1999, nearly 100 years after this all went down and Bobby had died,

Margaret Dunbar Cartwright received a scrapbook from her father. And it was the one the grandmother had made. It contained more than 400 articles about the kidnapping. They were all out of order. But her dad was like, hey, this will be a good project for you. And it was. Yeah. Because Margaret's kids were almost grown.

Her husband worked out of state. She needed a hobby. So this was like the ultimate hobby. She's going to piece it together, and she's going to find out that they're not the Dunbars. They're the fucking whatever. Cartwrights? No, Anderson.

The Anderson. Anderson, yeah. They're the Andersons. Who knows what they'll figure out. So she read all the articles. I know. who knows what they'll figure out so she read all the articles i know she read all the articles and she was stunned all of a sudden she's reading details she'd never read before yeah because she it's not been passed on in the family that there was probably this

big who is he really is he really bobby dunbar it's just been passed down that it was bobby dunbar uh-huh and now she's reading these and she's like it's not fucking bobby dunbar we're not the dunbars at all no that's not what she thought um she was stunned by some of the details she read like she had no idea that her great-grandparents didn't initially recognize him she was like what terrible fucking parents they are she kept reading she came across julia anderson's account and margaret was heartbroken for julia yeah because she got her kid taken away no margaret was heartbroken because she believed that Julia had lost a son. She did not believe that Bobby Dunbar was really.

No, no. She thought that was nuts. But she felt sorry for Julia because she thought this seems like a truthful account. And it's a truthful account from a woman who lost her child. That's terrible. My great-grandmother could relate to that. Mm-hmm. Over time, Margaret expanded her research beyond the scrapbook, and she found a Julia Anderson on a genealogy website.

found a Julia Anderson on a genealogy website. And the entry said that Julia had had a child, Bruce, who had been kidnapped by people who took him to Louisiana, renamed him Bobby Dunbar, and raised him as their own. And Margaret was like, what the fuck? This information's incorrect. Yes. She was like, that's not true. That is not true at all.

Yep. Or is it? So in 2000, she decided, you know what? I'm going to go meet with this woman's descendants. I'm in this. So she tracked down Julia's two living children, Hollis and Jules. And she also tracked down Jules's daughter Linda she also met with William Walter's descendants and that's when she started to get a fuller

picture of this story so it's like she's going to the upside down world yeah where you know in her family the legend is grandpa got kidnapped by these people and, thank God, reunited with his parents. But these people think just the opposite. They think she's part of this. Yeah, this family that kidnapped their kid and raised him as their own. Yeah. She starts learning all about the other people in this incident. She learned that William had proclaimed his innocence until the day he died.

She learned that after the trial, Julia didn't have the money to go back home to North Carolina. But the people of Poplarville, Mississippi, who testified at William's trial took her under their wing. And they took her back to Poplarville with them. She started a new life there. She got married and had seven children. She became very religious and founded a church. She started a new life there. She got married and had seven children. She became very religious and founded a church. She started a career as a nurse. Wow. Yeah, so she, I mean, she made stuff happen for herself. Yeah.

Margaret found out from Julia's children that she was a happy person, but she never forgot about bruce and the entire anderson family always referred to the dunbar bars oh boy and the entire anderson family always referred to the dunbar's as kidnappers because they are i believe they might be unintentional kidnappers. Really? Yeah. Okay.

I don't think they intentionally took somebody's kid, but it's not their fucking kid. It's not Bobby Dunbar. It's fucking Bruce Anderson. But he had all the moles and scars. Did he? Did he? so she also learned some more about how her grandfather must not have viewed the kidnapping as totally black and white either julia's son hollis told her told her that one day he was at work when a man came up to him and started making small talk

and finally the man introduced himself as bobby dunbar he was at work when a man came up to him and started making small talk. And finally, the man introduced himself as Bobby Dunbar. Hollis was so stunned that he didn't know what to say. He got called out to do some more work and he came back and they talked some more. But again, Hollis was so stunned that he just sort of froze. He'd been waiting for this moment his entire life. Yeah. But by the time it happened,

he was too shocked to say anything. He wasn't prepared. Mm-hmm. His sister Jules had a sort of similar story. A man came into the service station where she worked. He ordered a coffee. They talked for like an hour. He never gave his name but afterwards she always thought

that was my brother oh my gosh so at this point margaret's head is kind of spinning and she's like no way but she checked with her family and sure enough her aunts and uncles were like yeah one time we traveled through Mississippi. And dad said something like, these are the people they took me from. And he stopped. So at some point he did stop and talk to somebody in Mississippi. In like the 40s, they think. Oh my gosh.

More information comes out. Because the logical question to the Anderson family is, okay, you guys talked about Bruce all the time. You knew in your hearts that he'd been taken by the Dunvars. Did you guys ever visit him? Did you guys ever do anything, say anything? And Hollis and Jules, you know,

their, their initial reaction to that question was, well, we didn't really have the money to travel, but then I think they got more to the real answer a little while later in this interview, because they said we were afraid of the Dunbar's. They had legally taken our family member. Yeah.

And they were rich and we weren't. And we thought, you know, if they could get away with doing that, what else could they do? Yeah. So Margaret was a bit overwhelmed. Mm-hmm. Just because their view was so counter to everything that she knew in her heart. But she struck up something of a friendship with Linda, Julia's granddaughter, and the two of them became sort of research partners.

Just coming at this from two totally different angles. Both of them were certain they were right. For a while, that was fine. But then they butted heads and things took a really bad turn when margaret presented some of her research in columbia mississippi hollis and jewels were there and in margaret's presentation she referred to bruce as the illegitimate child of a domestic who worked the fields with bare dirty feet What? Hollis and Jules were fuming.

They were like, first of all, that's our mother you're talking about. And secondly, whether you want to face it or not, that's your biological great-grandmother. So you can just sit down. Wow. They didn't say that. But they went back to Linda and they they were like here's what just happened oh my gosh so linda said i'm gonna confront her she wrote to her the very woman you maligned at that meeting could very well be your great grandmother and essentially she said you're looking really hard at Julia.

Why don't you turn it around and look at Lessie and Percy? How about you take all that judgment you've got and put it on them and see how well they stand up to this scrutiny? Yeah. Margaret was pretty angry, but she took Linda's advice. She found William Walterters defense attorney's granddaughter and incredibly this woman happened to have the whole defense file tucked away wow it was over 900 pages holy shit so margaret made copies of it and as she was sifting through the documents

she came across this anonymous letter that had been written to the lawyer. It was just signed from a Christian woman. And it outlined all the reasons this woman thought that Bobby Dunbar was really Bruce. And it was so well-reasoned that Margaret was like, oh, my God, she's right. Yeah, he's fucking Bruce. Told you since the beginning yep she's like finally okay brandy get off my back so she's just i mean this is this is shocking yeah but the woman put listed all these reasons including including the Dunbar's. Why aren't they releasing photos of this child to display right next to another photo from before the kidnapping to show that it's clearly the same one?

Right. Which in one of the newspapers I saw, there were two photos next to each other. But at any rate, they look alike. enough all right yeah all right the thing that's hard to me is i feel like little kids look like little kids yeah like shapeless blobs like they're they're still forming and to me that's why i can believe that maybe after a certain period of time, you would have trouble recognizing your child. Again, I don't have kids, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. But neither do you, and you're really confident. So she looks deeper into her grandparents, too.

So I'm sure she knew some parts of this story. Yeah. But she uncovered their divorce papers, which shed a lot more light on their relationship. Turns out, Lessie and Percy separated five years after the kidnapping trial. Wow. When Bobby and Alonzo were children, Lessie left all of them and moved to New Orleans. Wow. Wow. Yeah.

She claimed that Percy beat her and cheated on her. Then Margaret uncovered a document that said that Percy beat and stabbed a man in 1920. What? Your reaction

is the same as hers. She all of a sudden, you know, now that she's... Grandpappy Percy? Now that she's turned this critical eye on the all of a sudden, you know, now that she's... Grandpappy Percy? Now that she's turned this critical eye on the two of them, she's like,

who was this great grandfather? And like, what did, what did Lessie have on her conscience? So you're probably thinking DNA. Yeah. You could solve this mystery right here, right now,

with a DNA test. Yes. Let's do it. Not so easy. Margaret didn't want to do it until she had the blessings of all of her aunts and uncles. And by the way, she didn't.

One of her uncles said, no matter how it turns out, there's going to be a sense of loss. What is truly to be gained? I have to ask that. The truth? What if you don't want to face the truth? What are you going to do with the truth?

I don't know. Yeah. I get that. Yeah. Like, so who I am, who I i think i am has always been a lie no and by the way these people are all like in their 60s 70s like i get that yeah i think it's wrong but no judgment or anything brandy just says you're totally wrong

after a few years of research the family was being interviewed by a reporter from the Associated Press, and the reporter brought it up with Margaret's dad. He was like, would you ever do a DNA test? And Margaret's dad, Bob Dunbar Jr., said yes. Because he knew his dad was Bobby Dunbar and he wanted to prove it once and for all. He's not. He's Bruce.

So here's how they did it. Leslie and Percy had two sons, Bobby and Alonzo. Obviously, no one doubted that Alonzo was Alonzo. So they took DNA from Alonzo's son and they compared the DNA to Bob's DNA. It wasn't similar.

It was. What? No, it wasn't. I just wanted to see your face. So the Dunbars were shocked and really angry. I've been telling them this whole time. Yeah, do they not listen to the podcast? Bob in particular couldn't believe it.

Things got really messy in their family because the plan had been that they'd reveal the DNA results to everyone all at once. But that's not how it happened. And I don't think everyone knew that the DNA test was happening. Yes. And on top of that, when Margaret called the lab tech to see if the results were ready, the lab tech just blurted it out. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Margaret was like, I think she thought it was just like a paternity test. Yeah. Like something more casual or causal. Definitely something more causal. And on top of that, they had this reporter who was about to run a story on the whole thing. The Dunbars were very upset and angry with Margaret. They seemed to think that this was selfish on her part. And I didn't see

this mentioned in any of the things that I saw or listened to, but she was working on a book about all this. So I wonder if that was part of it. They felt like this is part of her agenda somehow. So they were upset, but the

Andersons and the descendants of William Walter were thrilled thrilled first of all william walter's people were like yay vindication yeah he wasn't a criminal he wasn't a kidnapper he was he was just a good guy like everybody leave him alone and the andersons finally had confirmation of what they'd always known and brandy had already i already knew it did they do a dna test i don't think so i think people kind of were like well hollis and jules handled it i think beautifully they were like all we want from them is friendship and we're sorry that they're unhappy about this yeah that's pretty amazing way to handle

it yeah and Hollis even said I you know I don't want to put Bobby down and I don't want to put down my mother she did the best with what she had but he got off the wagon to get into a car oh yeah which he had a much better upbringing than he would have. Yeah. And that was one of the things that was mentioned in one of the articles was that, like, by the time Julia goes to see him, you know, again, I think it was to the point where when he was raised by her, I mean, they were just scraping to get by. Life was really hard. But when he became a Dunbar, he had a pony. Mm-hmm. I mean, he had everything a little kid could want yeah so Bob thought it over quite a bit you know he'd done the DNA test just to prove that

his dad was really a Dunbar and it didn't work out that way and he actually walked away with a new appreciation of his dad. He said, I feel like my daddy could have had all the excuses in the world to be a drunk, a child abuser, or anything, a rascal. He had a terrible, traumatic young life, but he chose my mother, and he chose to be a family man, and that was his world. That was his life. I realized that I grew up in a charmed environment.

Everybody can't say that. Daddy can't say that. What? I have a real problem with the fact that he's calling him Daddy. Oh, they're Southern. They're Southern. I thought that was such a beautiful quote it is a beautiful quote daddy ew no it's so weird are you putting some weird sexual spin on it no i just not even it's not a sexual thing i think it's super creepy you want to know i'm just going to gloss over that um something interesting is that bobby bob the son yeah moved to kinston north carolina which was like a hundred miles away from where bruce wow that's crazy isn't that kind of yeah

he was called there that's okay now you know how i get like i kind of feel like maybe yeah on some level yeah so what happened to the real bobby he got eaten by fucking alligators kristin that's exactly what margaret thinks yeah margaret thinks that he um went onto this little dock or bridge thing fell over and was eaten by an alligator. Yeah. So that's the story of Bobby Dunbar. That's crazy. Isn't that nuts? Yeah.

Now I do have to give a quick shout out. The only reason I knew about this was because of a, this American life episode. It was so good. It's called the ghost of Bobby Dunbar. It's amazing. I didn't give it a shout out in the beginning because I was afraid that that would trigger people's memories to that awesome episode. And they'd be like, oh, I know this story.

Well, I ruined it for them anyway because I called it from the beginning. Oh, you were so brilliant the whole time. No, but it's a really, really good episode. And I pulled a lot from it. I've never seen This American Life. It's a podcast. It's on NPR. I've never heard This American Life. It's a podcast. It's on NPR. I've never heard this American Life.

It's so good. It's really, really good. I'll have to listen to it. Yeah. That was a really great story. I love that story. Yeah. Man, I feel bad for everyone involved.

So you totally called it with the memories he'd kind of invented in his head. Yeah. I totally believe that, you know, it's like with anything from your childhood. You're fed a story about your, yeah, that you, those, you're told what happened to you. You're told, you know, that these things happen and you just create, your brain just creates memories of that. You don't know what you didn't. How could you know? You could have memories of something as a child know what you didn't how could you know you could have memories

of something as a child or you could think you have a memory of something as a child but it's not your actual memory it's just that you've been told that so many times yeah oh my god we're really inside the matrix and we never had childhoods at all. It's all been created for us. People could have created more exciting stories for us, though. I mean, like that guy got the, oh, you were on a wagon with this other kid and this piano tuner and one kid died. And we got, like, you grew up in suburban Kansas City. We had a pretty good time being being spice girl impersonators christian i don't know what you're

talking about these were good ones yeah yeah now i don't ever want to be this sleep deprived and messed up no podcast again never we promise to do better yes Yes, we are. We will be better. What else was I going to tell you? I felt like there was some other story. Oh, oh, OK. Another reason I'm so glad we are doing this podcast together. Yes. So like we've already said, we are recording these ahead of time.

But in our real time right now, the state killer oh my gosh and this morning when i woke up like i could not help myself i just had to do a deep dive into everything this guy had ever done yeah i'm reading reading reading like holy hell because i didn't realize how many times he would call the victims. And like one woman, he said, Merry Christmas. Yeah. And he'd say, I'm going to do it again. I mean, just I could not get past it. And so then Norman comes down the stairs.

He's sitting next to me. We're both sitting around talking. And I was like, man, do you know what the Golden State Killer did to people? And he goes, I don't want to hear it. And I was just like, OK, well, that's a on the one hand, that's a totally normal response. Yes. Yeah. Not at all satisfying.

No, no. But it was just funny to me because I was like, I said, well, the good news is Brandy's coming over in like two hours. So I'm going to be fine. But like, I was just so I felt like I just hit a brick wall. Oh, you're not some weirdo who wants to wake up on a Sunday morning and discuss what a serial killer did. Right. You'd rather not talk about that. Weird.

What a weird thing. I know. I am listening to i'll be gone in the dark right now are you really yes how is it it's so good and also disturbing but i feel like it's less disturbing now like i couldn't i didn't read it before but now that he's in custody it's easier i think to listen to the creepy fucking shit well yeah yeah because you know yeah justice gets served although btk was already in jail when i read his book and that scared the shit out of me so i imagine i'll be having some colden state killer nightmares soon i wish you had a landline so i could just call and just say remember when we

used to play yes okay as a victim that would be horrifying how would you ever live a normal life i have i can't even i have no idea me neither i i feel like there would be no chance yeah he has a daughter that's our age ew our age yeah his daughter was born in 1986 how old was he pretty damn old right well i guess not super old no he's 72 now he would have been 40 when she was born you know what you know what it is this goes back to me not realizing how old i actually am and in turn if i don't know how old i am i can't know how old my parents are because in my mind obviously my parents are in their 40s and that's not true at all. Okay, so the math adds up. Yes, the math does add up.

Wow. Yeah. Doesn't that make you wonder what that home life was like? Or was he just like, what they always say those people are like, where they like turn it off on some level. I know.

Yeah. No idea. It does make you wonder. What is going on with your shoulders right now? I feel like my sweatshirt's doing something weird. I was trying to... You're doing the weird thing. I'm trying to, like, inch it back up.

I was hoping you hadn't noticed. I was politely averting my eyes, but after a certain point, you just... It looked like you were doing some weird like dance move you do when you're in a car or you can't move your legs i was like that's my seduction move kristen i was testing it out consider me not seduced try harder next time all right noted maybe this down in my name involve your arms somehow but yeah i well that's like btk yeah he his children said they had a very normal childhood that is so weird it is fucking weird.

What would you do? If what? If you found out your dad was a secret serial killer. Oh my God. I don't even know. I don't know either. First of all, I wouldn't believe it. Yeah.

And then, you know, I think that's the crazy thing is like, then you you hear the DNA stuff and you go, I don't know. I don't know what I'd do. Just for the record, this is not an insinuation, Daryl, that we think you are in any way a secret serial killer. It was just a, you know, hypothetical question about a hypothetical father. Very good. Tim, we do think you're a serial killer sorry dad no i can't imagine and the other thing i was thinking today was like thinking about being one of his victims what would i do and i was thinking well okay i would get as much stuff

as i could and i just leave and it's like well then you leave your family behind um and maybe he goes after them i i don't know i don't know what you do i don't either i have no idea just be terrified what do you think so the thing that he did did you know when he came he would break into houses where a couple was yes and he would tie up the man and then put dishes on him yes and say if you move if i hear the dishes fall i'll kill you how do you think you and norman would react to that if that happened um i think i would be ordering norman not to move yeah i think i would do the exact same thing and i would as i was being attacked i would try not to make too much noise because obviously then that would be like even more torturous for Norman. But at the same time, I was thinking of this today, too.

Because I've always wondered, especially now that we're doing these cases, like, you never know. You never know the right way to play it. Yeah. Um, because if, if you're thinking, okay, well,

if he's going to rape me and that's it, then I just need to go along with it and survive. Yeah. Um, if he's going to rape me and kill me, then okay, I need to fight back. But you never know.

But then i started thinking about it a lot today and i thought you know so many rapes are like people you know they're not strangers jump out of the bushes or break into your houses and so i started thinking okay maybe if i am ever god forbid in that position i would just assume he's going to try to murder me i need to yeah fight back yeah but who knows who knows i there's no way to know how you would react in the situation no there's just not well it's much more comforting to think i would survive the hell out of that yeah just fine i'd be just fine yeah because i'm a survivor oh god can we end on an upper here what do you got for me oh god well i was just thinking this is not an upper at all but i had this friend back in the day who we were talking about this kind of dark shit.

Yeah. And she was just like, she said, I just kick them in the nuts. Yeah, I just beat them up. I don't think that's the answer. I just. I think it's that simple. I remember being so angry with that. Yeah. When i first heard it

because i was thinking oh oh is that all you have to do yeah yeah like oh so in a way it's really people's faults when they get raped why don't they just kick them in the nuts duh anyway i don't know why i thought that that would be an upper. Thanks for that. But no, but then I think later, as I got a little more mature. Please don't say it like that. I hate that. I hate when people say that. I hate that too. No, I started to realize that maybe we all tell ourselves things.

Yeah. Like, oh, why don't they do this thing that I'm capable of doing? Yes, exactly. That would save everyone. Yeah. don't they do this thing that I'm capable of doing? Yes, exactly. That would save everyone.

Yeah. Well, like the whole, um, never go to a second location. Like that's all well and good, but you don't really have a choice. You have a choice.

Yeah. Never go to a second location. Don't get raped and don't get murdered. That's right. That's all you have to do. That's our advice to everyone. Yep yep follow it and you'll be fine you'll just you'll be just fine that's correct okay i'm sorry that was a downer it was the worst upper i've ever heard kristin do you have anything i have nothing i'm like whitney houston I already made fun of myself before you came over because I've been so stressed and so busy that now I'm down to the bottom of my underwear drawer.

I'm down to the underwear that's too small. Cutting off circulation. Making life difficult for me. Making life difficult. I don't have 100% control over my brain anymore because I'm wearing underwear from like seven years ago. Should I not keep it that long? I mean, I thought you did the whole, uh, does this bring me joy clean out thing? You kept that seven year old underwear. It's really nice. That's the problem. Like it's high quality underwear,

really nice underwear. That's the problem. Like, it's high quality underwear. But I did do a big clean out. But it was mostly like just, you know, the stuff I got rid of was like old shirts from TJ Maxx. Not seven-year-old underwear. Nope.

Who's Daryl Pitts now? Yeah, I am my father. You are your father's daughter oh that's so sad i love you dad please refer back to the great compliment we gave you earlier when we said we did not think you were a serial correct well i think it's best if we just wrap this shit up. Probably. If you made it through this episode, we thank you from the bottom of our hearts and we apologize. We'll be sending out souvenir postcards to anyone who made it through. And a complimentary crab apple tree slab. Join us next week. When we'll be experts. Oh, wait.

What? Shouldn't we ask them to like our Facebook page? You know what? If they made it through, we have nothing to ask of them. Let's ask slightly more from you. Go like us on social media. Rate us on iTunes. Leave us a review.

Tell your friends about us. Have them start with a different episode, though. Yeah, don't start on this one. And then join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff. They regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to The Real Experts. For this episode, I got my info from a fascinating episode of This American Life, as well as old-timey articles, plus newer ones from the Associated Press. And I pulled my info from a 48 Hours episode and articles by Maren Kogan, Nick DaCosta-Klippa, and Dan Blahn. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors, and you know this episode was was full of them are of course ours. No,

they're everyone else. Please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.