Let's Go To Court! - 190: A Mighty Slut Shaming & Brothers

Episode Date: October 6, 2021

T’was the fall of 1882, and Nicholas Dukes had a lot going for him. He was a prominent attorney. He’d just been elected to the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. To top it all off, he was engaged to Lizzie Nutt. Lizzie came from a prominent family and was hot as hell. But as Nicholas and Lizzie got to know one another better, Nicholas became concerned. She was flirty. Forward. It was possible she wasn’t a virgin! (Neither was he, but that didn’t matter.) Nicholas was disgusted to find himself engaged to a woman who wanted to have sex with him. So he told her father.  On the afternoon of October 2, 1998, 15-year-old Zach Witman called the police. He’d just discovered his 13-year-old brother, Greg, dead in their home. Zach told the dispatcher, “I came downstairs, and the door was cracked and he was lying there. Just lying there! Gone! Gone! Gone! Gone! Why? Why? Why?” Greg had been stabbed multiple times -- to the point of near decapitation.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Demon in a bottle: the Dukes/Nutt affair,” by Paul Slade for PlanetSlade  “An honorable vengeance: the Dukes-Nutt saga,” developed by Rachel Zajac for the Uniontown Public Library  “A matter of honor,” Murder by Gaslight “19th century Dukes-Nutt murder scandal subject of new exhibit and book,” by Frances Borsodi for the Herald Standard In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Witmans” documentary “Commonwealth v. Witman” findlaw.com “Gregory fought for life” by Rick Lee and Teresa Ann Boeckel, York Daily Record “In the jurors’ hands” by Rick Lee and Teresa Ann Boeckel, York Daily Record “I killed my brother: Zachary Witman admits to gruesome 1998 murder; parole now possible” WITF.org “The Untold Truth Of The Witman Murder Case” by Aimee Lamoureux, grunge.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a mighty slut-shaming. And I'll be talking about brothers. So ominous when you say it like that.

Yeah, I really went back and forth on what to put here, and I ran out of time and went with brothers. Better than murderers, is that it? Yeah. Okay. All right. Brandy, good to have you here today. Oh, so glad to be here. We, as always, enjoyed a nice lunch, which included pie, which is okay.

What? What are you laughing about? So the place we had lunch had three types of pie. There were three of us, so we each ordered a different type, and then we could all have a bite. So I ordered the coconut, Kristen ordered the lemon meringue, and I

took a bite of the coconut, and I was like, it's pretty good, and then I tasted a bite of Kristen's lemon meringue, and I was like, it's pretty good. And then I tasted a bite of Kristen's Little Meringue and I was like, that's better than mine. But then you. Get a load of this, folks. This is a riveting material. Okay, hear me out. I took a bite of mine.

I thought it was pretty good. I took a bite of Brandy's. I thought it was even better. So you know what we did? We traded. It was a switcheroo. Time for a switcheroo. And that's just a sampling of the wild behavior that happens on our lunches.

We are nuts. We were really thrilled, though. We were. To switch. We just looked at each other and we're like, are you thinking what I'm thinking? And then I took off my top and she handed me a piece of pie. And she was like, oh, oh, oh. Yes, that is also what I was thinking.

I was thinking that too. That too. So I recovered pretty quickly, you know, as I often do. I think we came back here and this is the most important right now on our day. You know, we could just go straight to an ad. No. No. No.

And then I touch up Kristen's roots. And you all needed to know that. That's right. So write that down in your calendars. It's like one of those old timey newspapers. Miss Brandy Egan came to town today with her backpack full of hair dye to color the roots of Mrs. Norman Caruso. She was born without a name. They would call you Mrs. Norman Russo.

I know. I know. It's very upsetting. All right. I hope you're ready for this, lady. Oh, I was born ready. Okay. Shout out.

We're kind of giggly today. What? Is there an old timey disclaimer here yes there is I said murder by gaslight would you quit looking ahead

sources and I got very excited would you quit peeping at my sources shout outs to the journalist Paul Slade who wrote a very

thorough article about this case titled Demon in a Bottle. The Duke's Nut Affair. Duke's Nut! It's not quite how you're picturing it in your head. It's not. We're not talking about the Duke's Nuts.

Yeah, it's not Duke's, you know, Duke apostrophe Nuts. It's like Duke's Slash Nut. Yes. It's somebody with the last name Duke's. Yeah, I'm sorry to tell you. I know everyone got very excited. I wanted to hear all about the Duke's nuts. Ma'am, please, this is a classy show.

You're speaking to the Grace Kellyanne podcast. That's right, I forgot. You clearly did forget. So this article ran on his website, Planet Slade. It is like the most thorough article I could find. So a ton of this comes from his article. Also, thank you to the Uniontown Public Library for their multi-part series developed by Rachel Zajac titled An Honorable Vengeance. The Duke's Nut Saga.

And that one is about testicles. And you know something? I'd be remiss if I didn't tip my hat to Murder by Gaslight where I first stumbled across this case. Fun fact, that website is all

about people who stabbed other people and then they're like, I didn't stab you. Because they're gaslighting? Yeah. No, I'm just kidding. It's just about old-timey burgers. That one took me a minute to get there. It's pretty sophisticated humor on this podcast.

Goes over a lot of people's heads. All right, old-timey disclaimer. Woo! a lot of people's heads. All right. Old-timey disclaimer. Woo! Mm!

Mm! Mm! Twas the fall of 18... What? Twas! Twas the fall of 1882, Brandi. I'm sorry. I'm just trying to get in the mood, trying to be appropriate.

And Nicholas Dukes had a lot going for him. He was in his early 30s, and he was a successful attorney and he'd recently been elected to the Pennsylvania House of Representatives. Excuse me. He'd run for political office twice before, failed both times, but you know what they say? Third time's the charm. No, they don't say that. They say if at first you don't succeed, you can dust it off and try again. You can dust it off and try again.

Try again. So he was officially a politician. And he was in love. He was in love with a Miss Lizzie Nutt. Sorry. And you may not believe it, but she was the oldest daughter of Captain Adam Nutt and Charlotte Nutt. And you might be saying to yourself, wow, that's nuts. And you'd be right, because you know what?

Everyone was nuts about the nuts. Captain Adam Nutt was such a big deal. Oh, no. We've never gone off the rails this early in an episode. We're 12 minutes deep. Captain Nutt sounds like a serial. Captain Nutt is like, okay, don't you imagine when like Pirates of the Caribbean was really big, there was like an uptick in like pirate porn. Yeah.

Not pirated porn, mind you. Pirate porn. Porn with people dressed as pirates. I feel like someone, I mean, if they didn't call themselves Captain Nut, they really missed out, don't you think? I do. I do. If you're wondering how big a deal was Captain Nut, did he live in the coolest house of all time? Well, why don't you fucking Google the Adam Clark Nut Mansion and you tell me.

That's nut with two T's, mind you. Is it made of nuts? It was demolished by squirrels. Terrible tragedy. Adam Clark Nut Mansion? Yeah. You know what that is? What?

It's nuts. Stop it. That's beautiful. It's nuts. Stop it. That's beautiful. It is beautiful. I mean. Can you go to this thing? Well, sure you can go to it. Can you tour it?

I think maybe you can. Also, um, historic minute. Hang on. It's got its own Wikipedia page. I know. You know what? It's got its own Wikipedia page. I know. You know what? I wonder if you can't, actually, because I... Yeah, I don't think you can because I saw a Trump sign in the Google images.

And I feel like if they were a public site, they wouldn't be like... Yeah, I don't think so. It doesn't say anything here about tours either. That's pretty disappointing. The sign said, we're nuts for Trump. No, it didn't. No, it didn't. No, it didn't. But it very well could have.

Anyway, so it's a huge brick home, patios out the ass. How else would we describe this? Very Victorian. It's a Queen Anne style. Isn't that what they call that? Sure. Yeah, it is it's got that what do they call that tower thing the

that's got a name it's in every haunted house you've ever seen yeah just picture a big haunted house that's what we're looking at okay so. They call it something. The Widow's Watch. Widow's Peak. No, that's your hairline. Not your hairline. You don't have Widow's Peak. I do. Uh-huh.

But it's kind of minimal. Uh-huh. Hmm. Widow... Is that not a thing? No, you're right. It's the Widow's Dildo. That's inappropriate.

I'm going to continue to make up things so we should probably just move on so Cap and Nut had done quite well for themselves we are 12 we are 12 years old I do wonder

because this is such a long story I'm like when will it stop being funny that their last name is not? Right now, I've just decided. Oh, okay, we'll see. We shall see. So he had joined the Union Army and served as captain of the 3rd United States Colored Troops. He had been part of the team that investigated President Lincoln's assassination. And after the war was over,

he took a quite lofty position in the Pennsylvania Treasury. To put it mildly, everyone in Uniontown, Pennsylvania loved the Nuts. The Nut family was very active in the community, and they were a very good-looking crew. Lizzie Nut, the oldest daughter, was a total smoke show. She had large, expressive eyes, cute little mouth, eyebrows so perfect they looked microbladed, but it was the 1800s, so I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. And one Sunday, when Lizzie was in her early 20s, she was at church when she spotted a gentleman making eyes at her. Why, what's this? It was Nicholas Dukes.

He was about 10 years older than Lizzie and not nearly as blessed in the looks department. But she was a hot young nut and he was a prominent attorney and up-and-coming politician and so the sparks were a-flyin'. Nicholas in particular was basically drooling. He saw Lizzie at church that day and thought that she was the prettiest, nicest, most modest girl he'd ever seen. He later said, her sweet musical voice, her red lips, her white teeth, her pretty face and winning smile are fascinating.

Add to this her musical talent and you have a woman who would be an ornament to grace any home. By the way, an ornament to grace any home is what Norman has called me ever since I discovered the magic that is ordering pajamas that are one size too big for me. So you're just like cute and little in them? It's the coziest thing. I mean, this is the life hack of a lifetime, okay?

Order your pajamas one size up. I thought everybody did that. I was not doing that. Then I did it. I'm never looking back. Is this a thing that everyone does? I think so. Who wants fitted pajamas?

I've been wearing fitted pajamas for forever. Then all of a sudden I got some bigger ones. I was like, this is amazing. My whole life has changed. My skin is cleared up. My boobs are perkier than ever. Then I'll be mashed down by your tight-ass pajamas.

Is that what it is? It's not just the magic of bigger pajamas? I don't think so. Over time, Nicholas and Lizzie grew closer and closer. They visited one another and they sent love letters to each other. In fact,

Nicholas signed one of his letters gaspingly yours. Ew. Oh. I'm sure it's not a surprise that Nicholas eventually proposed to Lizzie and she could not say no. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

But this love story does not have a happy ending. And that's because it's no love story at all. It's a slut story. Oh, is Lizzie a slut? I don't know. Let's find out. Remember when you went through the hoe face? Let's find out.

Remember when you went through the hoe face? One time Brandy said she was going to go through a hoe face, and I was like, uh-huh, sure. And then she met David. True story. That's right. One guy comprised her entire hoe face. Everyone, please clutch your pearls because i will now tell you the scandalous story of what happened next from nicholas's perspective and since he's the one with the dong i think we can all agree that we shouldn't question his version of events at all no brandy don't you dare question

this man okay he's a politician prominent attorney and man beholder of don to recap nicholas was in love so in love but God. Unfortunately, as he got to know Lizzie better, he came to realize that she was a hoe for show. She was slutting it up big time. Just devastating. You're not going to believe this story. Okay, everyone clear your kids out of the room. Because one time she invited him over okay and there was another couple there so the whole story yeah that's right there wasn't a chaperone in sight just another couple okay oh my god and uh if you think that was racy get a a load of this. Okay, a few weeks later, Lizzie invited him over to the house alone, just the two of them, okay?

She sat quite close to him, and she told him that she'd burned her hand. And, okay, Brandy, Nicholas was ashamed of what happened next. I will let him tell it in his words, okay? Okay. I took hold of her hand in order to turn it into a position to see. She made no attempt to withdraw her hand, but let it rest in mine. I placed the other hand lightly upon it also, and, just for fun, I made a feint as if to kiss her. I was utterly surprised when, instead of withdrawing her face from me, she absolutely advanced her face to meet me.

Of course, such a reception flattered my vanity, and I began to feel an interest in her. I went away and promised to call again soon. Wait till this guy hears that I had London before I got married. He's just going to die on the spot. Now, question. Did the making of London start with you being like, I burned my hand. I burned my hand? I burned my hand.

Yeah, and David was like, oh. My dear, let me gaze upon your hand. And then he, I mean, he looked at me first. Right. Like he was going to kiss me. Uh-huh. But it was just for fun in his mind. It was just for funsies

and then I just bam, pounced on it. What was a poor boy to do? You ready for more sexy sex stuff? Okay, here we go. A few weeks later, Nicholas went back

to the nut house. He hadn't been invited. He was just popping in. But as he walked up to the mansion he peeked through the window well it sounds like he's a fucking no no hey he's i told damn it brandy i told you he is a white guy in this story he's very important how dare you question anything about this man okay so he's just peeping through a window like you do. And you know what he saw? He saw Lizzie in the arms of another man.

Nicholas was distraught. He later recalled, I stood a moment and watched him fondle her with no objections from her. What do you suppose that means, fondle her? Brandy. Do we have to go back to sex ed? My, my, my, my, my. It was all so upsetting.

Nicholas tried to stay away from Lizzie, Brandy. He really did. But he was but so upsetting. Nicholas tried to stay away from Lizzie Brandy. He really did. But he was but a man. He was only flesh and blood. And she was a sex demon sea witch. And she kept inviting him over. And he was powerless to resist her advances. But as badly as Nicholas wanted to be Lizzie's one and only, he knew she had other men.

This dude, A.C. Hagen, was always talking about how he hung out with Lizzie and fondled her. I'm very disturbed by how often the word fondle comes up in this script. I don't like it at all. I never realized how much I hate that word until it just flung at me, you know. This other dude talked about how she mashed on him. The fuck does that mean? Just like... I think it's like she did the mastermind.

It was a graveyard smash. I was working in the lab late one night when a lady said she burned her hand. Oh, it was a fright. I mashed the nut. I mashed Lizzie nut. Anyway, then you talked about how one time they went to a party and they did that old-timey, or in this case, case new timey dance where they're like in the grand chain.

And she gave this guy's hand a meaningful squeeze. She's a fucking hand squeezer. Well, fluey. She's squeezing hands just left and right i think we can all agree the evidence was really piling up here so finally nicholas decided to figure out once and for all whether lizzie was in fact a hoe he decided to test her. How do you test someone for this stuff, Brandy? How do you do it?

I don't know. Come on. I'm very concerned about where this is going. Use your noggin. How do you do it? I don't know. What's he going to do? I will allow him to tell it.

Prepare to be horrified. Does the word hymen come up? Thank God, no, it doesn't. But I'm afraid we've got another fondling that's about to happen. No! Okay, here's how he says the test went. She came up and placed herself on my lap as usual, and after fondling her for some time, I made a solicitation.

To my infinite astonishment and grief, she melted down like wax. Oh, how I pitied her weakness. But where is there a man that could resist the temptation of such beauty and loveliness? You would have done as I did. But what was my horror and heartsickness when I found the signs of her virginity wanting? I afterwards reproached her with it, and she denied it. I told her it was no use, that I could not be deceived, and that I should think all the more of her if she could tell the truth.

So he didn't say Hymen, but he meant Hymen. After considerable bandying, she broke down in a flood of tears. Yes, I mean, you knew where it was going. So that was a test. Her sweet virginity eluded me. Okay, I'm sorry. Okay. This is how this...

Make it sure I'm following along. Sure, go ahead. He comes over to the nut house. She places herself atop his lap as usual. He fucking fondles her. Yeah, he makes a solicitation. And then she

consents. Consents, they bang, he takes the whore. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's the wayore? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's the way it works, Brandy. And I'll thank you not to question any of this.

All right, then. So, you know. Oh, hang on. Just received word that we've got the results of Lizzie's Scantron right here. Oh, no. Looks like we got ourselves a floozy. Technically, I'd argue that it was two floozies because they were both having premarital sex.

Exactly. But yeah, yeah, he's a dude, so he gets the pass. Okay, very cool. So I ask you, Brandy, after this experience, what was Nicholas to do? He was a politician and a prominent attorney. He couldn't be engaged to some woman who wanted to have sex with him. The horror.

Finally, after much thought, Nicholas made a difficult decision. You see, he had so much respect for Lizzie's father that he just figured, as a man, he needed to tell Lizzie's dad that she was a slut. Cool. And he'd do it anonymously, the way all courageous people do. Great. So Nicholas sat down to write Captain Nutt a lengthy anonymous letter about Lizzie. The contents of that letter have been lost to history, but don't worry. Nicholas was one of the founding fathers of slut shaming, so he happily wrote more letters to Captain Nutt about Lizzie. And one in particular really pissed off Captain Nut.

Here's how it began. What I have to communicate concerns your daughter and will almost drive you to madness, because I know how you worship her. The letter went on about all the things he'd heard around town, the things he'd seen while he was peeping in Lizzie's window. He told her dad about how he'd had sex with Lizzie to determine whether she was a hussy, I guess. And he ended the letter with this.

This brings me to the point to which my foregoing remarks are preliminary and is, unless precautions are duly used, she will become a mother. Just when I am unable to say, she don't really know her condition, but she fears it. You can save her from open disgrace, and none but you can. Captain, believe me when I say this is the hardest thing I ever did in my life. I know this letter seems like stabbing you in the back, but in my humble judgment, it is the

only means to save both her and you from shameful disgrace. So I fucked your daughter, but she's a hoe. She's going to get pregnant out of wedlock and that's going to look real

bad for you, sir. This actually makes me feel better because you missed something here. What did I miss? I missed it too. It's the Victorian stuff. What he said there was she needs an abortion and you need to take her to get an abortion. Oh my gosh!

I know. It totally flew over my head, too. Yeah. I mean, they dressed everything up in Victorian times. So, I mean, that was so flowery, it went over my head. But it did not go over Captain Nutt's head. Mm-hmm. Because he wrote back, and whew, it was hot. He said, you write to me as if you consider me a shameless coward

and even suggest for me the hideous office of the abortionists. He said, of the community in which I live should this whole miserable affair become fully known to the world. You say that you have done as I would have done. Okay, so that's the gross part. He had been like, oh, she came at me and you would have done what I would have done. No, gross. He said, in this you are a base liar. The daughter or wife of any friend or associate of mine would be safe under any circumstances in my charge. You have no right to suggest that I could possibly be a libertine or betray a weak, confiding girl. I have always held that when a man invades the sanctity of a home, he takes his life in his hands. And under this code, I shall act. It rests with you whether this affair ends in a legal farce or a tragedy.

This commonwealth is not big enough for both of us. Oh! Oh! I'm going to do a little translation on that one, too. That's basically, you're a dick, I hate you. By the way, it sounds like you're the hoe, and also, you'd better marry my daughter or I'll literally kill you.

Yeah. Yes. Much more clear than the abortion stuff in the previous one. So, you know, Nicholas got that letter and he was like, a little concerned, but they continued to correspond

and Captain Nut was like, hey, come over and say this stuff to my face. We need to talk. And Nicholas was like, oh, yeah, well, I'm busy pooping myself. And even though Nicholas wasn't quite brave enough to go talk to this man in real life, he continued to talk a ton of shit in his letters. In one letter, Nicholas said he'd rather die than marry Lizzie. He wrote, I cannot accept for my wife the toy of the town

and thus become the butt of the town's mocking derision. Death is far sweeter. Toy of the town! You douchebag! Well, you sure fucking liked playing with it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow.

Hmm. He went on to be like, look, if your daughter had been an honorable woman and I had seduced her, then yes, I'd do the right thing. I'd marry her. But she's not honorable. She's a wanton woman. Oh. Nicholas said, I know you want to kill me but i don't want to kill you murder me if you will i won't arm myself i'm just warning you if you're gonna shoot me you

might as well shoot every guy in town oh shit by the way i don't walk into death traps but if you want to come to me, you can. I'll be at home, 8 o'clock, December 23rd. So close to Christmas. That's right. Thoughts on Nicholas so far? You want to pause? Dude's a dick!

Yep. Yeah. He sure is. Yeah. Dude sucks. Yes. Mm sure is. Yeah. Dude sucks. Yes. Mm-hmm. I hate this virginity, gross bullshit.

Yeah. Okay, so Nicholas sent off that strongly worded letter. And even though... Just for the record, in case anybody needs to hear it, you can't tell by having sex with someone if they're a virgin. I can. No, you can't. And your

worthiness as a person is not tied to the number of people you slept with or anything like that. Good lord. That is toxic crap. So, even though Nicholas had promised that he would not arm himself, the very next day he went to the hardware store and was like, yeah, I'd like to buy a gun, please. So pause for a brief history lesson.

At this time, duels were not really cool anymore. But it was seen as total commandments. Number one. But it was seen as totally reasonable and expected for a man to defend the honor of the ladies. So Captain Nut was like, game on. Fast forward to December 23rd.

Captain Nut and his nephew, Lil Nut. When he got older, he just dropped a little and went by Nut. No, his name was actually Captain and Lil Nut. His name was really Clark Breckinridge. Anyway, they walked to the bank

together, okay? So once there, Captain Nut put $625 in the family bank account. Adjusted for inflation, 14 grand. Wow, where was that money coming from? Um, well, good question, but he's a rich dude. Okay. From there, the two men went to the Jennings Hotel, where Nicholas Dukes lived. By this point, Captain Nutt had explained everything to his nephew about how Nicholas was a douche, and they got to the hotel, and they told the staff, hey, we need to talk to Nicholas Dukes. And so a porter named Louis

Williams took them up to Nicholas's room. And Nicholas answered the door and let Captain Nutt inside, and the porter kind of starts walking away. But Clark Breckenridge stuck around just outside of Nicholas's room. Meanwhile, the hotel owner's son-in-law, a Mr. James Feather, came upstairs and started chatting with Clark. These names are wonderful. Simply sublime. So, you know, that's kind of shit-chatting.

And then all of a sudden the guys heard a scuffle from inside the room. The men were clearly fighting. It was a ruckus. Could you describe the ruckus? And then they heard someone cry out

murder murder murder somebody cried out murder yeah what is that what people in the old timey times called out when they were being murdered

well what are you going to call out help chili dogs what are you going to say help not murder murder no don't you cry out help Well, what are you going to call out? Help. Chili dogs. What are you going to say? Help. Not murder. Murder. No, don't you cry out help.

Wow. You know what? Help me. When you're being murdered, I'm going to judge you for what you shout out. I'm not going to shout out murder. Murder. Murder. Then they heard Clark or! Or, Little Nut!

As I imagine it. So Clark, the nephew, burst in and saw Nicholas and Captain Nut fighting. Nicholas was clearly winning. I mean, he was younger, you know, all that. Clark took hold of his uncle and walked him over to one side of the room, and James Feather grabbed hold of Nicholas Dukes and dragged him to the other side of the room. No one was dead and somebody was shouting murder? Like, throwing

that word around. You storm in and you're so excited. Damn it! Yeah, they're both alive still? I thought there would be blood everywhere. Yes! So they separated the two men, and James said to Nicholas, you've made a hell of an ass

out of yourself. And in that moment, Nicholas Dukes shot Captain Nutt. Captain Nutt slumped to the ground. One of his eyeballs shot out. What? He tried to reach for his gun, but by that point he was dying and he couldn't get the gun out of his

pocket. His eyeball was rolling away. Yeah. Do you go for the gun or do you go for the eyeball? You gotta go for the gun or do you go for the eyeball? You got to go for the gun. Because you know you're not going to survive. Yeah.

You can't, like, stick that eyeball back in. No. Man, he would have been a captain with an eye patch. I mean, he would have had to get a parrot. Yeah. Okay, this has gone too far. It's too far. Meanwhile, Nicholas turned the gun on James, but the porter came running in and wrestled the gun away from him.

And almost immediately after all this, Nicholas was like, well, I think I'll head down to the sheriff's office and turn myself in. Really? Yep. And he did. I think I'll head down to the sheriff's office and turn myself in. Really? Yep. And he did. In the meantime, they called in a doctor to try to help Captain Nut, but it was no use. He died that evening. He didn't even see it coming.

Soon, word got out. And this made international news. And for good reason reason all of the key players were vips they'd been fighting over sexy stuff and like half the people in this story had the last name nut what more could you want interestingly if nicholas dukes had killed like any other white dude he might have been looking at manslaughter But because he'd killed a prominent member of the community, the DA charged him with willful and malicious murder. Ooh. Murder! Murder! Murder!

And Nicholas pled not guilty on the grounds of self-defense. No one had been murdered when he was yelling out murder. Well, you know, sometimes... Maybe a little preemptive thing? Maybe he was afraid. What if he was afraid he was going to get murdered? That's why you yell out, Hell!

Okay, what makes people run faster? Murder or health? I don't know if I could. No, I'd totally run in there. Yeah, you as a, are you kidding me? I guarantee you, you would run faster if someone yelled murder. You're absolutely right. Mm-hmm.

You're absolutely right. All right. Mm-hmm. You know what? I'm so sorry. I have to pee. Go ahead. And I'm only like halfway through.

Go. So we're going to pause. Go ahead. And I'm only like halfway through. Go. So we're going to pause. Go pee. Pee, pee, pee. Know how I know you washed your hands? How? Because I can smell the soap on you. I've never been more creeped out.

You know, fun fact, I wash my hands every time I go to the bathroom. Did you know something crazy? Like a third of people don't. Yes. Like an alarming number of people. That's why they had to, you know, really put it out there about COVID. You're supposed to wash your hands. So many people don't wash their hands.

People are nasty. People are gross. People don't take showers. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rich are gross. People don't take showers. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Rich white people. Yes.

Mm-hmm. It is. Yeah, it's your favorite people. I know. Dax Shepard and Kristen Bell. I know. Just don't bathe their kids. Just stewing in their own juices over there in their mansion.

Yeah. Maybe the dirt hits differently when over there in their mansion. Maybe the dirt hits differently when you're in a mansion. Maybe it does. You got those tall ceilings so the funk just wafts upward. Maybe. That would make a lot of sense. Okay, back to the story.

Go to my GoFundMe so I can find out. We need Brandy to get rich enough that she can stop bathing and feel comfortable enough to brag about not bathing. That's the other thing. Yes. Yeah. Because it's shameful for most of us. Yes.

Hmm. Anyway. Okay. On March 12th, 1883, the murder trial got underway. The prosecution's main argument was that Nicholas had killed Captain Nutt when he was under no physical danger. He had been the first one to reach for his gun. Well, I mean, yeah, they were separated and everything by that point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

In order to really strengthen their case, the prosecution wanted to read those scandalous letters out loud to the jury. If the jury heard all the nasty things that Nicholas had written about Lizzie Nutt, then they would not like it, and they would probably find him guilty. And he wanted to be found not guilty. Just so everything's clear. And the defense was like, we cannot let these letters be read aloud. We object. And so Judge Alphonse Wilson was like, okay, I will not allow it. Sustained.

Is that all of them? That's it. The look on your face was so disappointing every time. I was like, oh no, I got another. Oh no, I got another. The prosecution was bummed because without those letters, the murder trial was suddenly much less sexy. So the prosecution moved forward with their case. They called Clark Breckenridge, a.k.a. Lil Nut, Captain Nut's nephew, who had seen the whole thing.

And, you know, his account was backed up by the testimony of James Feather and Lewis Williams. Then two doctors testified. Then a dude from the hardware store was like, yeah, Nicholas came in and bought a gun a few days before the killing. And it appears that Nicholas wasn't much of a gun guy because he basically went in there and was like give me the one that's easy to use and he was a big old sketch ball because when other customers walked in he like ducked into a corner and was like oh i don't want anyone to see me buying this and so he bought the gun and double ended dildo after the other customers left. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Come on. Don't. Don't. Everyone, Brandy took a big sip of water. Are you okay? You know, this case happens like the 1800s. The last reference I expected was a double-ended dildo. Well, if that's what he was holding when the other customers walked in, what do you want

me to do? Do you want me to omit it from history, Brandy? Or do you think I'm making it up? Do you think double-ended dildos existed in the 1800s? Of course! Or were they made out of? I mean, hopefully something that wouldn't splinter. Splinter, that's exactly what I'm talking about.

My fear would be wood. Yeah! I feel like you wouldn't splinter. Splinter, that's exactly my fear. My fear would be wood. Yeah. I feel like you wouldn't like that. Marble. Well, that's only for rich people. I mean, you've got to be really wealthy to have a marble double-ended dildo. Probably.

Hmm. You know what? I think what would make the most sense is like a some other stone that would be readily available locally made. Like a limestone. You go to maybe a blacksmith or something. You're like, hey, I need something kind of long and knob-like. And if you could have like a knob

on each end. Yes, it's um. It's for my dog. It's a dog toy, I swear. Anyway, so that's what happened in the hardware store that day, okay? So he bought that dildo in the gun

after the customer slept. But then he was just like, somebody saw him leaving the store and he was like, don't worry, I only bought a dildo. And he had to say that because it was sticking out of the top of his bag like a loaf of French bread. Which that store should have gotten bigger bags. You know, they should have anticipated that that would be something people would... Well, they fit the single-ended dildos just fine. So the trial moved along. And after a while, the prosecution was like,

Hey, judge, I know you said no, but could we please read those letters? Please, please, please, please. And the defense was like, no, stop, don't allow it. But the judge did allow it. And this led to a very dramatic moment. All the women were asked to leave the courtroom. Because they can't handle it. Yeah, so this actually is a fact.

When a woman hears sexual content, her vagina explodes. So to avoid a messy cleanup, the ladies had to leave. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the prosecution read the letters aloud. And oh my, the crowd was scandalized. A newspaper reporter from the time said that as the letters were being read, the judge turned pale.

He looked away. He tried to stop the tears from falling down his face. And every father in the room bowed their heads in tears and grief. People were disgusted by what they heard. How could he have written that filth to Captain Nut? Thoughts? Basically, the defense shat their pants. Yeah, of course. Yeah, I don't think it looks good.

No, it's terrible. Yeah. Honestly, I mean, so back in these times, yeah, you would go defend your daughter or mother or whatever to the death. And I'm kind of like, you know what? This was some really mean slut shaming. Go ahead and kill the guy. That's probably. Do not do that.

No, no one. Don't do that. But yeah, he totally slut shamed her. He's a total douche canoe. Yeah. He had no reason one do that. But yeah, he totally sledge shamed her. He's a total douche canoe. Yeah. He had no reason to do that. And also a murderer who cried murder before anyone was murdered. Do you think it was self-defense?

No, they had been separated by that point. No, no, I don't think Captain Nut was going to be shooting him at that point. Okay, all right. Do you think Captain Nut was going to shoot him? We'll get, we'll get later. Okay. Later, okay? All right.

Okay, so the defense presented their case and what? Well. What? I just remembered the thing where he was like, I will not fight you. But if you should like to fight me, please see me at my residence on the 23rd of December. And then Captain Nut came there on the 23rd of December. So, yeah, I mean, Nicholas Dukes probably thought he was there to kill him. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So was it self-defense? I'm still going with no. Okay, okay. So the defense presented their case, and it didn't go great. They started by trying to point out discrepancies in the witnesses' stories, but there really weren't that many discrepancies, so that didn't really work. So when that didn't work, they were like, okay, well, you can't trust these people. James Feather hated Nicholas Dukes, and that Breckenridge guy

was Captain Nutt's nephew. He's biased, which I think the last one is probably a fair enough point, but James Feather had actually voted for Nicholas Dukes in that election, and there was no evidence to suggest he didn't like the guy. So the defense's case was basically going over it like a fart at a party. You say that phrase all the time. I love it. I think that's a thing people say. It's a thing I say because I love it. I know you can't possibly understand because you've never let a fart slip out and surprise you.

I'm sorry. So says you. I've not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I've never been surprised by a fart. Never in your life? Never.

Never. Never. You must have the tightest butthole this side of the Mississippi. I think I have excellent butthole control. And you sound jealous. Just try to get that double-ended dildo in, Brandi. I dare you. Now that is too far, Kristen.

No, it wouldn't be because it couldn't even get up there Because a fart can't even Escape you It's an airtight butthole That's what that is Guess that explains why you're so full of shit Oh I'm sorry

This is so stupid This is You know you have really ruined this podcast I'm sorry. This is so stupid. You know, you have really ruined this podcast. I used to like it. Now I don't. Okay. So the defense, you know, they're trying to rally and they're like, well, you know, Captain Nutt showed up at Nicholas's residence with a big cane.

Well, did he walk with a cane? I mean, I think so. I mean, didn't everyone walk with a cane in those days? Yeah, exactly. But hey, get this. He hit Nicholas with it. Well, yeah, because he's like a crotchety old man. Yeah, but it hurt.

Okay. And that's when he screamed, murder, murder! He had a bruise five days later. Okay. He called his daughter a fucking whore, so. Yeah. He had it coming. He had it coming.

Clearly, Nicholas had been in danger. He needed to defend himself. In their closing arguments, the defense told the jury that those damning letters that their client had written should not have any bearing on the verdict. What? No. What? Why not? That's great and all, but no.

You're allowed to defend yourself if someone's trying to attack you. But he wasn't attacking him in the moment when he... He wasn't in the act of attacking him when he shot him. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah.

Before the jury went into deliberation, the judge reminded them that they were to decide whether Nicholas was guilty of first-degree murder, second-degree murder, or manslaughter. Murdery. That's when you don't quite murder someone, but it's like murdery. Real murder. Yeah, it's like really, you're iffy.

Feeling real murdery. We're in kind of a gray area, and I don't even like it. And after three and a half hours of deliberation, the jury returned a verdict. Nut guilty. Nut guilty? Nut guilty. The crowd was stunned. Me too.

I know. I know. The judge turned to the jury and basically spanked every last one of them. He told them that their verdict gave dissatisfaction to the court and that the evidence had been sufficient to justify a different verdict. Translation, you're all dumb as hell and fucked up big time. Didn't take long for all hell to break loose. An angry mob chased the jury out of the courtroom. A mob burned Nicholas Dukes in effigy. And as they did so, they sang a song.

And I know it sounds like I'm about to make up a song, but this is honestly what they sang. We'll hang Dukes from the sour apple tree. Dukes will go down to Hades and the jury will meet him on the way. I don't know the tune, but Did they really sing that? Yes. You know, I thought you'd made it up until you said something about him going down to Hades. Yeah. And I was like,

I don't think a person would sing about Hades. There would be more dick jokes in my version of the song. Absolutely. There'd be something about a double and a dildo going into his balloon nut. You are gross, ma'am. Then, because there was no shortage of effigies, they made more effigies of Nicholas and all the jurors, and they sang some more of that hit song they'd invented.

Invent? Do you invent a song? You write a song, and you sing a song. Invented. Do you invent a song? You write a song and you sing a song. I'm sorry. And that is how music was invented. A lot of people don't know that music was invented in 1883 by a bunch of angry people. And that's what this podcast is for. Da-da-da.

So the jurors were terrified. It appears some of them fled town or just hid. Nicholas Dukes took the fuck off to his mommy's house. But no one could outrun the anger over this verdict because this was international news. The folks in Shoemakersville, which isn't even close to Uniontown, were like, we're pretty good at making effigies too, you know. And they made their own effigies of the jury and hung them up by the railroad track

so that everybody whizzing by could see them. What about shoes? Did they make shoes? Shoemakersville. This is actually where the DSW originates. And that's where the DSW was invented. Those effigies had the nicest shoes. And I think it's wasteful, personally. Yeah.

Yeah. But anyway. Anyway. In the coverage of this verdict, there was a lot of talk about politics, which I find inappropriate in all settings, particularly when it comes to discussions about our government's judicial system. In fact, I'm constantly having to remind you that what we should strive for on this podcast is a separation between true crime stories and any kind of discussion about, you know, inequality, injustice, you know, all that. Many podcasts are able to pull this off. Brandi, I don't know why it's so difficult for you. Anyway, I'm going to very briefly discuss politics here.

People were really focused on the fact that Nicholas Dukes was a Democrat, and every single one of the jurors had been Democrats. Seemed fishy. I'm smelling something. Smells like bacterial vaginosis. Ew! What? Too far.

Too far. The double-ended dildo, that was just on the line. You know? Now you're in that murdery zone. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I'll reel it back in.

Much like that fishy smell. There was a town meeting where everyone sat around being like, I hate that verdict. Do you hate that verdict? I sure do. Meanwhile, Nicholas was very concerned for his safety. All he'd ever wanted to do was slut-shame a woman to her father.

And now people were acting like he was a bad guy. He is a bad guy. He's a douche. He's the guy that Billie Eilish songs about. Sing a little. He's a bad guy. Duh.

Because music was invented. Yes. His friends were like, hey, you should probably write down your side of the story so that if the mob kills you, you'll at least get your side out there. So Nicholas did.

As he often did, Nicholas wrote a very long letter. Do you have it for us? You are a big fan of his writing, aren't you? It's very flowery. In it, he talked about how aggressive Captain Nut had been and how he'd been the one to shout murder because he was afraid. He was afraid! Okay, I'm just saying no one was confused about who yelled murder.

And he said that the testimony from all the witnesses had been wrong. None of them had ever broken up the fight between him and the captain. They couldn't make it happen. had ever broken up the fight between him and the captain. They couldn't make it happen. He had shot the captain when they were alone in the room together. But he did not shoot the deputy. I shot the sheriff, but I did not shoot the deputy.

Anyway, are we getting this? Yeah. They were alone in the room when he shot him. And the captain had his hand on his own pistol, so it was real even-steven. Okay. At one point, Nicholas wrote, I was on trial for the killing of Captain Nut, not for writing letters. So he got his story out there, but people had made up their minds.

Nicholas was a bad guy, and poor Lizzie had had her reputation unfairly dragged through the mud because Nicholas had said that Lizzie was pregnant, but there's no evidence that she was ever pregnant. Oh, shit. Now, maybe she did have an old-timey abortion, which we both agree is just like when you shove a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser up there. But there seems to be no evidence that she had a baby. And all the men who Nicholas mentioned in his letters about having been with Lizzie said, Nope, that wasn't true.

Never with Lizzie said, no, that wasn't true. Never with Lizzie. So why did Nicholas write those awful letters in the first place? Because he didn't want to marry her? Yeah. Yeah. So Lizzie had a theory and she shared it in an interview with the New York Times. She said, what induced him to write them? I cannot imagine unless his object was to manufacture an excuse for breaking our engagement. Everyone has been deceived by him Wow. Yeah. Why put me he tell me? Wow. Yeah. Why put me through this?

So some sources are like, oh, maybe Lizzie was sleeping around. Maybe she was. Maybe she was. This was not his only option. Yeah. Okay. Ugh.

Lizzie and her family were devastated by her father's death and by the embarrassing, scandalous trial. And to make matters worse, Nicholas eventually moved back to Uniontown. People still hated him. In fact, a bunch of people in the legal profession were working to get him disbarred. And Nicholas was fighting them every step of the way. and Nicholas was fighting them every step of the way. Fast forward a bit to June 13, 1883, the day after Brandy's third birthday. And on that particular day, James Nutt, Captain Nutt's 20-year-old son, was walking down the street with a newspaper reporter when Nicholas Dukes walked by.

And wouldn't you know it, Nicholas Dukes started talking shit. James was enraged by the audacity. This man had killed his father, humiliated his sister, and now he was doing the worst thing of all, being rude. So James walked back to his house, to the Nutt family mansion, and when he got there, he grabbed his dead father's gun. Mm-hmm. He put a target on the carriage wall, shot at it a few times, you know, just practicing,

just, you know, for fun. Mm-hmm. No particular target in mind. No. No. It was just like a stick figure drawing on it, and it said... James, or Dukes. Dukes.

Yeah, he didn't put his own name on it. That evening, he walked back into town. He hid in the shadows behind an old storefront. Nicholas tended to go to the post office every evening around 7, and that night was no exception. What was he doing at the post office every night? It was like a social hub. Oh. Yeah.

All right. Much like today, where we go and hang at the post office. I always hang at the post office. I pour myself a brandy and go down to the post office. Can you imagine? They'd be like, leave immediately. Yes. Can you imagine?

They'd be like, leave immediately. James watched him. And when Nicholas made his move to walk back to his home, James came out of the darkness and fired his father's gun. Five times. Shit. Two of the bullets hit and killed an innocent bystander. And the other three hit Nicholas. Did he die?

Police rushed around the men. A police officer grabbed James, but he didn't need to. James stood calmly and handed the gun to the officer. And the officer said, you've done a bad piece of work. And James said, yes, but I could not help it. Within minutes, Nicholas Dukes died, surrounded by people who thought he got what he deserved. Okay, I have to pause. This innocent bystander, I couldn't find their name anywhere.

And a lot of sources don't even mention that another person was shot and killed this night. It's all about the Duke's Nut saga. Anyway, a lot of people, myself included, think that after Nicholas died, it became crystal clear why he'd gone on a horrible slut-shaming campaign against Lizzie. When his will was read, it was discovered that he'd left $2,000 to a woman named Mary Beeson, his new fiancée. Oh, shit. And a daughter of one of Uniontown's most well-respected families.

So there had been talk that he had been cheating on Lizzie this whole time, and he wanted to end it with Lizzie and be with Mary. And the only way he could do that without risking his own reputation was to ruin hers. What a guy. Dude's a dick. Eventually, word spread that James Nutt had murdered Nicholas Dukes, and people were thrilled. Tons of national newspapers weighed in. Almost everyone had the same opinion.

The justice system had failed the Nutt family, so James Nutt had no choice but to take matters into his own hands. But this wasn't the Wild West. There were rules. And so James Nutt was put on trial for the murder of Nicholas Dukes. No mention of the other person. Very sorry. Yeah. But because there weren't too many rules, the same dudes who had been on the prosecution against Nicholas Dukes signed up to be on James Nutt's defense team.

Okay. And they urged him to plead not guilty by reason of insanity. Yeah. Brandy, let me tell you, this trial had everything. A change of venue, a three-judge panel, a jury, all the Nutt women in full morning gear. Ooh. Can you imagine a three-judge panel plus the jury? Yeah, that's a lot.

That's just a lot. That's a lot happening, yeah. It featured wild moments such as women coming to the courtroom to give the defendant flowers, key witnesses secretly threatened by Nicholas Duke's friends. But wait, there's more. A member of the jury had been besties with Captain Nut. Oh. Mm-hmm.

The prosecution brought forth a ton of witnesses who were all like, yep, I saw it. James Nutt killed Nicholas. Mm-hmm. And then the prosecution made what we call an oops fudge stripes. They called the police officer to the stand who'd taken James in after the shooting, and the officer relayed the story of how James had told him, I couldn't help it. At this point, the entire defense team broke into the Macarena

because that had been their whole point. James couldn't help it. He had to shoot Nicholas. It was beyond his control. And the prosecution had been the one to bring this out of the way because it was just beautiful. So they were thrilled. The prosecution also called a bunch of witnesses who were like, yeah, we saw James practicing his shooting right before he killed Nicholas Dukes.

So clearly this was premeditated. But the defense got up and they talked about how the nuts were always doing target practice out on the farm. It was just a great pastime. Then the defense called the doctors. Oh, the doctors. They were like, yep, James Nutt, he's kind of an imbecile. And James' mom, Charlotte, was like, that's right, my boy's a mess. By the way, we have lunacy in the family. Two uncles and an aunt. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. When the defense ran We have lunacy in the family. Two uncles and an aunt. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

When the defense ran out of doctors, they called family members and former classmates who were all like, Yeah, personally, I always thought that James was kind of dumb. Mm-hmm. Excellent. And then, to really drive home the point that James had been driven insane by Nicholas Dukes, they read those infamous, scandalous letters out loud. But first, they cleared all the ladies out of the room to prevent vaginal explosions. At one point during cross-examination of a defense witness, the prosecution was like,

excuse me, hey, could we put a witness on the stand who will testify that on the night his father was murdered, James Nutt said he'd like to kill Nicholas Dukes? Because that happened. And the judges were like, no, if you wanted to do that, you should have done it earlier. And at that point, the defense was like, oh, I think we're done. Yeah. So they went into closing arguments and the prosecution tried their best. So they went into closing arguments and the prosecution tried their best. But the defense team had this senator from Indiana who was an amazing speaker.

And he was so good that when he finished his remarks, one of the fucking judges came down off the bench with tears in his eyes and shook his hand. Holy shit. I mean, come on, man. The jury deliberated for several hours. And they found James Nutt not guilty by reason of insanity. And the crowd went wild. But one of the judges was like, hey, shut up. Yeah.

Okay, so he was insane, but is he still insane? We need to figure that out. Because if he's still insane, we're not letting him walk free. And the crowd was like, ah, fatal sticks. So the next day, court was back in session, and a bunch of doctors were like, oh, who, James? No, he's fine. Insanity, totally gone now. No worries. So they let him go. After this

trial, James Nutt went off to Brown County, Kansas. Where's Brown County, Kansas? It's not far. It's like, I think it's a little north of Atchison. Okay. I pointed up to north. Yep. To the sky.

Yep. And in Brown County, he managed one of the many nut family farms. He married, had children, and at some point he had a little trouble with some of his staff members, so they quit working for him and started working on he had a little trouble with some of his staff members so they quit working for him and started working on a farm a few miles away these staff members were jesse payton and his wife mrs payton was she ever given a name if so what was it it infuriates me to tell you that i could not find this woman's name anywhere. Oh, my God. I looked all over for this lady's name.

I was like, you know what? I will eventually find obituaries. Obituaries, they tend to say, nope. Nothing. Nothing. Mrs. Payton. Yeah. She's a very important character in What Happens Next, and it drives me nuts that we don't know her name.

Anyway, so time passed, and maybe all those people who said that James was stupid were right. Even with all his family money, he still managed to be terrible at running a farm. He racked up a ton of debt. He started drinking a whole bunch. And at some point in January of 1895, his mom sent him $150, which adjusted for inflation is like $11 billion. And James spent it all on shots, shots, shots, shots, shots, shots. Everybody! So at one point, got super drunk.

He went to the local newspaper editor's house and he was like, hey, hey. I don't like that when I moved to town, you printed an article about me shooting Nicholas Dukes. Now I'm going to kill you. Just to prove that I'm a nice, normal guy. Yeah. And the newspaper editor was like, well, hey, calm down. And they talked and talked and talked. And finally, the editor was like, well, he put his hands on his thighs, which everyone knows is the Midwestern signal for time to leave.

And so James left. But he didn't go home. Instead, he went to the home of Mr. and Mrs. Payton. Mr. Payton was out of town, cutting ice at Bean Lake in Missouri, which is the weirdest sentence anyone has ever said. Obviously. Duh, of course he was cutting ice. Of course he was cutting ice at Bean Lake.

It was January in Missouri. So Mrs. Payton was at home with her five children and a farm worker named Leonard Coleman, who was chopping wood outside. You know, all of a sudden, in storms James, drunk and angry. And of course, he had a gun on him. Mrs. Payton was freaking out, but tried to remain calm and she shooed her kids away for their safety. But she kept hold of her baby. James demanded food, so she fed him. Then he said he wanted a place to sleep. And she said, okay, you can go upstairs, sleep in the farm hands room. And he was like, what's the matter

with my sleeping with you? And Mrs. Payton was having none of it. She was like, no, cut it out. If you don't stop it, I'm going to call Leonard inside. And that appeared to embarrass James. He was like, I'll give you money if you don't tell anybody I said that. So another source said that he tried to give her money to sleep with him. But at any rate, she was like, I don't want your money. And I might not tell Leonard what you said, but I'm definitely telling my husband when he gets back. And when James heard that, he pulled his gun out of his coat and he shot her. She dropped to the floor with the baby. And when he heard the commotion, Leonard came running, still holding his axe.

And as Leonard burst into the house, James shot him three times. Then James walked over to where Mrs. Payton lay on the floor and shot her in the back of the head. Oh, my God. Then he tried to stomp on the baby. But Leonard, who, keep in mind, had already been shot at three times, was evidently a superhero because he tackled James to the ground before he could get to the baby. He hit James in the head with an axe and tied him to a chair. Then he ran to the nearest neighbor's house, which I'm guessing was like 12 miles. Yeah.

Maybe half a mile. I don't know. Yeah. And, of course, James Nutt was arrested and Leonard Coleman survived. And somehow so did Mrs. Payton. Shut up! Okay, here's the kind of weird part. Once this became news, because obviously this was huge news,

that this guy who had gotten away with murdering two other people had now tried to murder. Okay, anyway, everybody's waiting to see what happens to Mrs. Payton. But it was clear pretty early she was going to murder. Okay. Anyway, you know, everybody's waiting to see what happens to Mrs. Payton. But it was clear pretty early she was going to survive. But people didn't really want that. They wanted him to be charged with murder. Yeah. And so in some newspaper accounts, it says she's dead. Yeah.

Wow. They jumped the gun a little. Yeah. She survived. Anyway. So they were able to tell everyone exactly what had happened. And James Nutt faced two charges of attempted murder. Since this is the third fucking trial in this story, we're going to do this one lickety split.

Both the victims told the jury what happened to them. The defense claimed that James was not guilty by reason of insanity. And the jury deliberated for a few minutes. They found him guilty. Oh, yeah. And he was sentenced to 15 years in the Leavenworth Penitentiary. Oh. Local.

I know where that is. But James came from a wealthy, very well-connected political family, so don't worry, he got out in less than half the time. Cool. Lizzie Nutt went on to live a pretty normal life. She married a traveling salesman and really just stayed out of the press for the rest of her life. And years after the murders, it came out that Captain Nutt hadn't been such an upstanding citizen after all. He'd been an embezzler.

He'd embezzled a ton of money from the state of Pennsylvania. Like that money that he was putting in the bank. It's funny when you mention where did he get that money. He was very wealthy. I mean, he was crazy wealthy. Yeah. But he was also stealing money and then investing it in oil. So, you know.

So, yeah, he was an embezzler. Nicholas Dukes, still a douche. And that's the story of a mighty slut shaming. That was nuts. Nuts. Mm-hmm. That was excellent. Did you nut enjoy it?

I did enjoy it. I love an old timey one. Me too. Those times were wild. Yeah. Real wild. All right. Oh, I can't wait to sit back, relax, and hear a lighthearted tale about two brothers.

Oh, yeah. That's not what this is. I should have known. Shout out to the High Priestess of Costco in the Discord for recommending this case. And also, shout out to a documentary I watched called The Whitmans. Okay. It is available on i-D. That's where I watched it. Whitmans. Okay. It is available on i-D. That's where I watched it.

It's an i-D original. It was quite good. I don't know it. Didn't care for that. I did not like it. I don't know what your problem is. All the jokes on this podcast are just A+. It's just all A pluses all the way.

It was 3.17 p.m. on Friday, October 2nd, 1998, when a call came in to the New Freedom Pennsylvania 911 dispatch call center. The caller was 15-year-old Zach Whitman, and this is how the call went. Zach, oh my god, oh my god, I just came downstairs and my brother, his throat is all cut up. I don't know. I guess he's dead. You've got to send someone. to send someone. Dispatcher. Listen to me. How old is your brother? Zach. He was 13. Wow, that's quick to go to past tense. Sure is. Dispatcher. Okay, so you came home and found him there? Zach. I heard a noise. I was upstairs. I was sleeping. I'm sick. I heard a noise. I come downstairs and I see my brother in the back room. He's just lying there. He's all

bloody. The whole house is like, dispatcher, listen to me. Is he breathing? Zach. No. Dispatcher. He's not breathing? Zach. No. Dispatcher. Can you move him away a little so you can get him flat on his back? So at this point, Zach's brother was like hunched kind of over the washing machine in this back room, which is like their laundry room. That's where I keep the washing machine.

Yes, typically. So Zach moves him and goes, oh, my God, I just moved him and his head practically came off. Oh, my God. The dispatcher said, all right, stay on the phone with me for a minute. The dispatcher then stayed on the line with Zach as he fed details to the paramedics on their way to the scene. Initially, paramedics were told that there was some kind of trauma, but then as the call went on with Zach, they were alerted that some kind of crime had occurred, and then they were alerted that some kind of crime had occurred, and then they were

alerted that they would likely arrive on scene before the police, and that this could still be an active crime scene. The longer Zach stayed on the line with 911, the more frantic he got. He kept saying, I need to call my mom, I need to call my mom. But the dispatcher asked him to remain on the line. And the dispatcher attempted to get more information from him so that he could better prepare the responding officers for, like, what they were heading into. He asked Zach what kind of noise he had heard. He asked if it was a thud. And Zach said, no, not exactly. He explained that at first it sounded like roughhousing and then it sounded like someone was getting thrown against the wall. And then he said it sounded

like his brother was suffering. Suffering, just suffering. That's what it sounded like, Zach told the dispatcher. The more questions the dispatcher asked, the more upset Zach got. He started crying and then kind of screeching. And at one point he broke down and he cried out, Gun! Gun! Gun! Gun! Why? Why? Why? The dispatcher remained on the line with Zach until the first ambulance arrived at the Whitman home.

It was 3.24 p.m. The call had lasted seven minutes. When the first paramedics arrived on the scene, they were greeted by Zach Whitman. He was standing in the open garage. He was screaming and crying for help. He was in complete hysterics. He kept saying, somebody help me, please. Somebody help me. He was wearing a sweatshirt and sweatpants and socks, and there was quite a bit of blood on him. He was holding a phone in his hand and he

kept saying over and over again, I need to call my mom. The paramedics attempted to calm Zach down. They asked him his name and his age and asked him what had happened, what was going on. He said that he'd been home sick that day, that he was upstairs sleeping. He left a key in between the front door and the storm door because he knew his 13-year-old brother, Greg, would be coming home from school and he didn't want to have to get up and let him in. He told the paramedics that he'd woken up when he'd heard a noise. He'd heard the front door open and close. And then he heard a thud and then more thuds, and then it sounded like someone was getting thrown against the wall or something was getting thrown against the wall, and that's when he'd come downstairs and he'd found his brother, and that's when he called 911.

The paramedics at that point did kind of a visual check like into the house from the garage and they could see Greg's body laying flat on the floor of the laundry room. And I believe one of them went in the house and confirmed that he did not, it was very clear that he was dead. He had been nearly decapitated. The police chief himself was on the scene by 3.30, and he conducted what they called a security sweep of the residence to ensure that no one else was in the home. So he walked through the scene and went to work securing it and processing what he determined to be a pretty large crime scene. It appeared that Greg had been attacked just inside the front door of the home.

There was a lot of blood there. There was also his backpack there. A jacket was there. And the small entry table had been knocked over and broken. From there, he walked like through like a formal dining room area. And there was blood all along the way. Blood on the walls, blood on the floor. He walked through like kitchen

area, through a hallway, and then to that back room, that laundry room, where he observed Greg lying flat on the ground with a lot of blood around him. And there was a blood trail along the whole way. From there, he went upstairs to clear the upstairs and there was no sign of any struggle upstairs, no blood upstairs. In fact, all of the bedroom doors were closed. Only one door was open. It was a bathroom door. He saw that there was a towel on the floor and that was kind of it. And then he came back downstairs, completed basically a loop of that whole main floor and then headed back out of back out into the garage and called for further assistance. At this time, he then walked to the end of the driveway where there was an EMT kind of just talking with Zach, assessing him, seeing, you know, if he was okay. And at that point, because the chief had called in for backup, a detective arrived on the

scene. Detective Goodfellow. Ooh, I love it. Yes. And so the chief and Detective Goodfellow are kind of talking and he's like filling him in. Meanwhile, the CMTs over here was Zach, just kind of, you know, making sure everything's okay. And they walked over and together they talked to Zach

and, you know, said, can you help us out here? Let us, you know, can you just run us through the story one more time? Let us know what happened. And he did. He kind of gave him the same story and then he got like visibly upset. He started shaking.

He was crying. He kept saying, I need to call my mother. And he was like, okay, just, like, we'll take care of all of that. I promise. We just need to make sure you're okay. We just want to get a better, you know, idea of what exactly happened here. And he told them the same story. I was upstairs sleeping.

I was home sick today. I heard the door open. I heard a noise. I came downstairs. And there was my brother. There was upstairs sleeping. I was home sick today. I heard the door open. I heard a noise. I came downstairs and there was my brother. There was blood everywhere. Throughout the story, the detective noticed that there were parts of it that he, you know, seemed to get really agitated during and then he would kind of calm down a little bit. He was just like really going through a wave of emotions as he was telling this story. Is that not normal? I think it's totally normal.

Yeah, that would seem normal to me. Yeah, I think it's totally normal. And each time he would get kind of worked up, the chief would ask him just to kind of calm down, you know, I know this is a lot, calm down. That always helps when someone says calm down. I just want to make sure I can understand everything that you're saying. I can't understand you when you're hysterical. Right.

Exactly. And so he, you know, he's continuing on with the story. He said, you know, he came downstairs, saw the blood. There was clearly a struggle. And then the chief was like, okay, did you see anyone in the house? Did you see anything? And he said, no, I didn't see anyone. I didn't hear anyone.

The only thing I heard was the sound of my brother suffering, just suffering. This kid's 13? He's 15. 15, okay. That seems weird. I agree. I think it's a really weird descriptive word that he's using. Yeah.

So, and now he's very worked up again and he's asking to please call his mother. Can I please call my mom? And the chief and the detective are like, we're going to take care of it. How do we get in contact with her? And Zach tells them that the phone number is on the refrigerator door. So by this time, it's about 345 and the EMTs load Zach Whitman into the ambulance. They're headed to the hospital. It didn't seem like he was injured, but they needed to check him out. He was in extreme emotional distress. They did note one small cut on his finger.

He told them he didn't really know where it was from. It might have happened when he was, like, trying to pull Greg down and lay him flat on the ground, like the dispatcher had told him to. So they're like, great. You know, they make a note of that. And, you know, really they just wanted to get him checked out. It seemed like maybe he was in shock. You know, there was just a lot of stuff going on. So they head off to the hospital and an officer was instructed to follow the ambulance to the hospital

and secure Zach's clothing as evidence because it had blood all over it. And so they get him to the hospital, they get him cleaned up. His bloody clothing was bagged and his hands were wiped clean. They used like a towel to kind of wipe them clean. And then they took those towels and they bagged those as evidence as well. In the meantime, the police went to work contacting Zach and Greg's parents, Sue and Ron Whitman. Sue was at work at a bank in Baltimore, which is just like across the state line. But Ron was away on business. He was like in software sales and he was in Chicago.

He was actually in the air flying home from a business trip when they were trying to get in contact with them. Sue arrived home somewhere between four and five. And it's not clear to me how much she knew when she arrived home. I don't know if she came home because they called her or if she knew what she was coming home to when she got there. But what a nightmare. Oh, I can't imagine. No. But upon her arrival at the house, Chief Childs walked up to her

and he filled her in on this horrible situation and let her know that Zach was at the hospital being tended to. Obviously, Sue was a wreck. She kept saying that she wanted to see her baby. She wanted to see her baby. And the chief said he did his best to console her. He said that he understood and he was sorry for her loss, but that he couldn't allow that. This was a secured crime scene, one that he couldn't risk contaminating. So he couldn't allow her inside of the house. At that point, Sue was like, then fine, you know, take me to the hospital.

Let me be with Zach. And she told the chief that he better do his job and find out who did this to her son. Oh, that's a classic Brandy line right there. Because, you know, it's going to be your other son. She's not going to want to hear that. I just know you love that. You love that shit right there. Well, don't say that.

That makes me sound terrible. Maybe it's because you are terrible. That makes me sound terrible. Maybe it's because you are terrible. So she was taken to the hospital to be with Zach, and she was able to be by his side as he was again questioned by detectives about what had happened. He was the main suspect, right? What? He was the main suspect.

Yeah. I mean, they were doing a lot with his clothes, really. I mean, they knew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Greg arrived home from school at 3.10 p.m. And the 911 call was placed at 3.17. Didn't leave a lot of time for anybody who wasn't already in the home to be responsible for this crime.

Yeah, that was something they narrowed down pretty quickly. Yeah. So Sue is at the hospital. She's sitting with Zach. At some point, though, she had to be sedated because she was so emotional. The distress had just become too much for her by the time ron arrived at the hospital was like eight o'clock in the evening he had been when his flight landed he had been pulled off by the police and they had like pulled him aside in the airport and like let him know that something terrible had

happened to his family. And again, I'm not sure how much detail was given because I read one article that said when he was pulled off the flight, he tried to call Sue at work and a co-worker answered the phone and like gave the phone to like her manager and it was like the manager who had to tell Ron that his son had been killed. Oh my. Yeah.

Yeah. So I don't know if it's like the airport police like didn't know all the details to deliver the information fully or what really happened but if you're the manager what do you do do you tell someone that or do you say well what do you say you need to get home you need to get to the hospital yeah and then the person's naturally like what tell me what just tell me what's going on yeah and it would naturally going to be like, what's wrong? Just tell me what's going on. Yeah, and it would be wrong to be like, no, I don't want to be

the one. I know everything horrible that's happening to you. And to your family, but I'm not going to tell you. Yeah, I don't think Yeah, you can't do that. No. So either way, he arrived at the hospital. What's the polite way to handle this? Exactly, I don't fucking

know. Yeah. So he arrived at the hospital. What's the polite way to handle this? I don't fucking know. Yeah. So he arrived at the hospital around eight. He was told that Sue was already, she was in a room. She was heavily sedated. And so he had gone in to Zachary's room and just, you know, sat with him. On his way to sit with Zach, he was met by one of the detectives on the case. And, you know, kind of got an overview of what was going on.

And that detective let Ron know kind of that the investigators were at the house processing the scene. And Ron told that detective to do whatever it takes to catch whoever had killed Greg. There you go again, Brady. You can't help yourself. You love this shit.

I know. You do. You do. You love foreshadowing. Yeah. You love a good ominous tone. Yeah, I do. I do love an ominous tone.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. I do love an ominous tone. Yep. Yeah. So, meanwhile, back at the Whitman home, they're processing the scene. They're following a blood trail all throughout the house.

They're trying to put together what had happened. Around like 1230 in the morning, they finally bring in, stop me if you've heard of this before, a little chemical. Lumina. What? And stop me if you've heard of this before, a little chemical. Luminol. What? You're going to have to do an in-depth explanation. Okay. So on the documentary, they talk about this luminol and they're like, it is a substance that when sprayed upon blood, this is. Luminesses. That's not the alarming part.

Okay. Because I think, you know, every documentary you watch, they, like, explain it like no one's ever heard of a crime ever before. Right, right. And they're like, what's this, murder? Ooh, blood? There's blood inside people? Yeah.

Okay, this is what... Sometimes mine falls out. Falls out? Yeah. That's why you've got to get a period cut. Oh, or is your vagina, just like your butthole, too tight for any liquid or gas or anything to escape it?

Too tight. Yep. Sealed right up. I have a zipper on it. Good for you. Good for you. That's why you call it your pocketbook. That's right. No, no. On this documentary, there's footage of these detectives getting the luminol.

And it's like the first time they've ever worked with luminol. They're just like, okay, I do what now? I mix it up. They're like mixing it up in a spray bottle and spraying it around. And they're like, okay, I do what now? I mix it up. They're like mixing it up in a spray bottle and spraying it around. And they're like, okay, get in here with that light. Let's see what happens. I don't know when luminol was invented. Was it new in 1998?

I don't know. I don't know. But it appears that it was the first time these detectives were ever working with it. Okay. So they spray it all over the crime scene and they are able to then follow a more clear path through the house. There are parts where the blood didn't show up.

There's like wallpaper all over this fucking house, like very busy floral wallpaper. It was 1998. It was 1998, yeah. There's a formal dining room that reminds me so much of the formal dining room at your house when we were growing up. So, yes.

I was going to say, Charere Pits loved a good floral wallpaper. Absolutely. Their master bathroom was all floral wallpaper all the time. Yes. So, they're following this blood trail through the house, and they're able to piece together a better mapping of what had happened than they had been able to do with the naked eye. Is that how that'll work? That's how that works.

I'm going to need you to explain it more slowly to me. But now they're trying to figure out, okay, did someone, did the killer leave the house? Did he go back upstairs and pretend to be napping? So they follow this trail and they, you know, looking at various exits from the house. And they follow a trail outside a back door and notice that it keeps going. They keep spraying, keep checking it, keep going. And it goes about 10, 15, 20, I don't know, every article says something a little bit different, feet out into the yard past the family's hot tub, like a little gazebo with a hot they had a gazebo with a hot tub that's the dream that is it is the dream and the blood trail leads out into the yard and there's an area near a tree

where there's like a little mound of dirt oh god what had he buried And so they poke around in the mound of dirt. And there is a little plastic pen knife, which I had never heard the term pen knife. But this is a little plastic knife with a retractable blade. blade. It like slides back into the housing and then you can like put it on your like pocket with your pins.

Great. So they uncover that. In case you want to kill someone and then write about it. Bloody pin knife and then there's a bloody pair of like soccer gloves. goalie gloves. Mm-hmm.

And that's about it. They identified these items as belonging to the Whitmans. Of course. Zach had a small knife collection. He had about 12 knives in his collection. Was one missing? There was another one that was nearly identical to it in the collection. So Sue would later say that she'd never seen this knife of Zach's before, but he had another knife identical to it, just a different color in his knife collection.

And they were both like promotional items from auto parts stores. His dad used to own an auto parts store. Okay. And so it seems. Yeah. And both Zach and Greg at different times played soccer. Zach and Greg at different times played soccer. Greg was very involved in soccer. He played club soccer. One article called them lacrosse gloves. I don't know the difference. All the other sources called them soccer gloves.

Okay. Anyway, so at this point, they're like, okay. Yeah. This is all. We know what this is. Yeah. Pointing to the same direction. So at this point, this scene had just been being processed. There had been no search warrant or anything like that.

But once they found these items, they were like, okay, we better get a search warrant to search the rest of the house. And before we, you know, seize any more evidence. Ron Whitman recalls that those first two days after Greg's murder were excruciatingly painful. They couldn't go home. He didn't really understand fully what had gone on. They had to pick out a funeral home and make arrangements for a funeral

for their 13-year-old son who'd been brutally murdered. And meanwhile, the investigation was going on, but it had gotten real quiet. This is an absolute nightmare. Yeah. And it would only take a couple of days for the Whitmans to find out why it had gotten so quiet.

So, obviously, we know that the investigators had discovered that Greg had been brutally murdered. We already knew that. He'd been stabbed, slashed nearly a hundred times. He'd been nearly decapitated. In the course of their investigation, what detectives had not found was any sign that anybody other than Zach had been in the house with Greg when the murder occurred.

And so just a couple of days after Zach had placed that 911 call, he was arrested and charged with the murder of his brother, Greg. Zachary Whitman pled not guilty and was released on, I believe, a $125,000 bond. But he was ordered to remain on house arrest until his trial. What no one knew at the time, though, was that this meant that Zach would spend the next four and a half years on house arrest. What? As his case moved through the court system at the approximate speed of a snail in molasses in January. Yeah. What the hell? There were endless pretrial hearings to determine all kinds of shit. Should he be tried as an adult or as a juvenile?

What evidence was admissible? So much of it had been collected before a search warrant had been obtained. Should there be a change of venue? This had gotten tons of publicity. Tons of publicity. Publicity? Yeah, publicity. You know.

In a pretty small town. New Freedom's like part of like a metro area, but the town itself is like 4,000 people. Oh, yeah. You need to change your opinion. Yeah, major news. So ultimately. Wow. Ultimately, over these four and a half years. Yeah. it was decided that zach would be tried as an

adult he would be tried in his county york county but a jury would be bused in from another county and most of the evidence was admissible because here's the gist of it. Basically, everyone from that house was aware that the house was being searched. Zach had called 911, and both Sue and Ron had given detectives verbal consent to do whatever they needed to do to solve Greg's murder. Okay.

Yeah. That's what tied this up for a long time. It's like, what's admissible, what's not? Yeah. Well, that's huge. That's everything. But yeah, when you call 911 for help in your home, you're basically consenting for police and emergency crews to come in your home and observe what they observe while they're in there.

There was a lot. This back and forth took like years because there wasn't a lot of legal precedent for it. They had to look for other cases that involved this. And that's basically what it came down to. Because the family called 911 themselves. They asked for the police to come in their house, like basically anything they obtained during that response to that call is admissible. As long as it's related to what they were called in for. Okay.

Yeah. I can live with that. Yeah. Correct. Yeah. I can live with that. Yeah. In May of 2003, Zachary Whitman's first degree murder trial was finally underway.

His parents believed that this was like part of the plan the whole time by the prosecution to let Zachary get older. So that he would look older and a jury might not be as sympathetic to him. They feel like it was no accident that the prosecution stretched this out as long as they could before going to trial. Was it the prosecution stretching it out though? So the prosecution had to be the ones arguing about what was admissible. No, the prosecution was who was arguing about what was admissible because some stuff was deemed inadmissible at first because there was no search warrant and the

prosecution had to argue no, this should be let in, this should be let in. Initially, they weren't even going to allow the 911 call in. Wow. Yeah. And I don't know the specifics on that. I just found that mentioned in the court record.

That's really interesting. I know. Okay. All right. I think because he's a minor, I don't really know. Okay. Yeah. So his parents are very like, this was the plan the whole time because he was 15 and

he was a very young looking 15. I know. When this happened. That's the funny thing about especially that age of like just getting into high school. Some kids look tiny. They look baby faced and some kids look like full grown adults. It's a weird time in life. It's a really weird time. So yeah, 15. Zach was like one of those young 15 year olds.

And then by the time he went to trial, he was nearly 20, looked much older, looked more like an adult. He still looked very young, but definitely more like an adult. Do you agree with the parents? No, I don't. I think it's just a. These things take a really long time. Yeah, I mean, every cut because you've covered a few cases of these where there's an argument about. Is it do they go to juvenile court? Are they tried as an adult? And that stuff takes a long time.

It takes a really long time. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just kind of the way the court system works. Yeah. I don't think this was, I think the prosecution probably was like, yay, we'll benefit from this. Sure. But you don't think it was like some.

No. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. There was also, and I heard this mentioned in the documentary and in a couple of articles, but I couldn't find exactly why this happened. They were actually represented by a different attorney at first than their trial attorney. It's actually, gosh, and I hesitate to bring this up because I don't know the background of it. gosh and I hesitate to bring this up because I don't know the background of it but it's actually an attorney who was involved in the

Adnan Syed case and she was disbarred oh yeah so she was involved with them early on and they actually ended up getting her taken off the case because I think what she was asking for was like all this money for experts and then she would never come through with

the expert and they weren't even. What was her name? Michelle something. Okay. All right. I believe. Anyway, I really should. Sorry, that's very vague, and I.

How dare you? And I have noticed you haven't had a single nut joke in your entire case. You're absolutely right. You really dropped the ball on that, Missy. You're absolutely right. You really dropped the ball on that, Missy. You're absolutely right. So, finally, they're at trial, and the prosecution basically argues that all of the evidence points to Zachary.

Yeah. And points away from anyone else. There was nobody else in the home. Nobody else was spotted in the neighborhood. Like, at the time when a bunch of kids were walking home. Like, yeah. Yeah. It looks like Zach did this.

Yeah. But the defense argued that there simply wasn't time for Zach to have done everything that the prosecution wants him to have done. He couldn't have attacked Greg when he got in the house and brutally murdered him and chased him all around that main floor before ending up in the laundry room with him and slashing and stabbing him to death nearly a hundred times. I mean, that is very fast. It is very fast. So seven minutes from the time he got home to when the 911 call was placed. But here's my problem with that argument by the defense. Okay.

Anyone had to do it that fast. Yeah. Someone did it that fast. Yeah. Someone did it that fast. Yeah. And if it was someone who wasn't in the home, they had to do it even faster because they had to get in there and then get out and completely disappear

without a trace within those seven minutes. Yeah, fair enough. I think it's not a good argument. Yeah. The prosecution put the forensic pathologist, Dr. Sarah Funk, who had done Gregory's autopsy on the stand, and she talked about how brutal the injuries were to Gregory. She said that she counted more than 65 stab wounds, 17 slash marks, 25 defensive wounds, and an additional 16 wounds or more to his chest area. All of those others were to his neck.

Are you ever going to tell us why he did this? What's with that face? Kind of. Okay. Stay tuned. All Okay. Stay tuned. All right. Stay tuned. I was going to leave, but I'll stay.

She said that the cuts, the defensive wounds to Gregory's hands were so deep and they would have been very painful. And they showed that Gregory was clearly aware that his life was in danger and that he put up a fight to try and defend himself. She said that the wounds themselves measured up to that penknife blade. That penknife that they had found in the yard with the bloody soccer gloves. She said they matched the wounds. There was this argument that that knife was like a little promotional item. It was flimsy. How could it have nearly decapitated someone?

Yeah. It was flimsy. How could it have nearly decapitated someone? Yeah. And she said, you know, yeah, it seems unusual, but the blade matches the wounds and... It happened. It happened. It happened. Hmm.

On cross-examination, the defense tried to bring up that the scrapings under Gregory's fingernails were never tested for DNA. And she said that that's true. They did clip them and save the nails for further investigation, but they hadn't deemed it necessary. And so it had never been done. So this kind of became the defense's claim that, like, you got tunnel vision. Yeah, you got tunnel vision. Anybody else could have been responsible for this. We don't know. became the defense's claim that like you got tunnel vision yeah you got tunnel vision anybody else could have been responsible for this we don't know and they the defense attorney which

in this documentary the whitman so this is really focuses on sue and ron and their lives dealing with this this documentary does yeah and they talk about how their greatest regret through all of this is the defense attorney that they hired. Oh, shit. And they felt like he did a terrible job. Yeah, his defense was too vague. It was, you know, anybody else could have been responsible for this. What did they feel he left unsaid? I'm not really sure.

Because sometimes it's not that it's a bad attorney. It's that it's an impossible defense. Yeah. Yeah. So he made a big point about this, that the scrapings had never been tested. And yeah, that is. Yeah. She had to say yes.

Yeah, you're right. They weren't. They weren't. Yeah, she had to say yes. Yeah, you're right. They weren't. They weren't. And then he made this point about how couldn't this possibly have been somebody with a military background who committed this murder?

And she was like, it could be, right? I mean, I guess. We can't rule out. So his point about that was that the windpipe had been severed through this attack, which I would argue that, I mean, if you're doing that many slashes and stabs to the throat, that's going to happen. But his argument was that that showed. Training. Training, yes. And that that had been an intentional thing so that Greg could not scream during the attack. Hmm. Hmm.

Yeah. Both the prosecution and the defense used the 911 call and different portions of it. The prosecution used the beginning portion of it where what you noticed, Zach was very quick to speak about his brother in the past tense. Yeah, that seemed really odd. Really odd. In contrast, though, the defense used the end portion, where he was very clearly upset.

He's screeching and crying and saying why and asking to call his mom. What do you make of that? What do you mean, what do I make of it? Like, to me, and I've heard, I've heard the 911 call. I do think that the beginning part, it sounds weird. He sounds very calm. It sounds almost scripted, like he knew what he wanted to say before he got on there but then towards the end he is very upset he's crying he's emotional

i mean i feel like i don't know enough about the situation to say for sure but i mean it it could be that the emotions were hitting him and that's that's kind of what I think. Yeah. Yeah. I think the longer he was on the call with 911, the emotions, the reality of what had just transpired were sinking in, and he was unable to control his emotions. I think he went into the call. It's my belief that Zach is guilty, that Zach murdered his brother. And, yeah, I think he went into the call having a script in his mind.

This is what I'm going to say. Yeah. And he said it. Said it. And was able to be composed while he said all of that. And then, yeah, I think the emotions started to sink in and he wasn't able to keep that same composure. So this was like the closing arguments by both the prosecution and the defense, this 911 call.

That's interesting. I know. I think that's an interesting thing where they played different parts of it and asked the jury to really pay attention, pay attention to how scripted this was. Pay attention to. And they did this with lots of different things throughout the trial. They did it with his clothing as well. So he had blood on his clothes. But not a ton of blood.

Yeah. He wasn't drenched head to toe in blood. But there was blood spatter on him, which doesn't. Oh, well, yeah, that's. So that was one of the prosecution's big claims was that, yes, it makes sense for him to have blood on him if he's moving his brother. That was the defense claim. The blood came on him because he moved his brother as the dispatcher told him to.

Right. But they put it they put a blood spatter expert on the stand, which we now know is questionable science. Who talked about. Well, is it questionable science? No, it's about you have to have an actual expert. And not just a police officer who took a 40 hour class. Correct. Okay.

Correct. Yes. It requires an actual expert with lots of training. And they talked about how this one particular mark on the sweatshirt was arterial spatter. Oh. Yeah. Which could only happen if he'd been standing over him while the artery. Right there.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. over him while the artery. Right there. Yes. Yeah. Ugh. So he didn't testify at trial, but Henry Lee, the expert from. Oh, yeah. I love him. He's the expert that they use in the staircase.

Close personal friend. Yes. Friend of the podcast. He says that, like, you know, it could go either way. The blood. The blood. Really? you know, it could go either way. The blood, the blood ever can. Because this sweatshirt was examined and shown to the jury through pictures when it's flat.

You can't draw conclusions from stuff when it's not in the state it would have been when it was on the person. You need to see it in its natural state to be able to examine it properly. One of the biggest pieces of evidence to me that Zach is the one that did this is that they remember I told you they wiped his hands down. They took his socks. They took his socks. They took his pants. Well, the defense made this big claim that, like, Zach couldn't have been the one to bury the stuff in the backyard because there was no dirt on the knees. There was no soil on the knees of his sweatpants. And he would have had to knelt on the ground to bury the gloves and the knife. to knelt on the ground to bury the gloves and the knife.

But by contrast, the prosecution was able to offer up that they had done those wipings of his hands. They'd collected his socks and soil was present on both of those things. There was soil on his socks. There was soil on his hands. soil on his socks. There was soil on his hands. They did testing on that soil, but it's really hard to say like this is the exact same soil. What they were able to say was that the mica count was the same on the soil that they took off of him and the soil that was in the backyard. I know exactly what that means. So don't even worry about it. Exactly. The prosecution really kind of zeroed in on the dirt that was found on Zach's socks and hands.

That was like their big like smoking gun. If he'd really been in bed sick that day, even if he had, you know, run all around the house, you know, freaking out after this had happened. There's no explanation for why there would be soil on his hands and his feet. The only explanation for that is that he is the one who walked into the backyard, who buried the knife and the gloves, and then he'd come back in and called 911. Yeah. So the 911 call had been played multiple times during the trial and it was what was the last thing that was left with the jury before they were given the case to deliberate.

I think that's tough because I think it could, when you're both arguing that the 911 call supports your side of it. I don't know. So the jury deliberated for 11 hours over two days before they returned a verdict. They were given the choice of first degree murder all the way down to third degree murder and even voluntary manslaughter. But the prosecution was arguing for first degree murder. So the jury deliberated and they found Zachary Whitman guilty of first degree murder. He was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. Throughout all of this, his parents and Zach himself maintained his innocence.

maintained his innocence. Through the years, Ron and Sue kept fighting Zach's case. They filed appeals. They got a new attorney for the appeals process. They really worked to try and get Zach a new trial based on ineffective counsel. They really thought that their attorney didn't represent him well. But in what way? I don't know specifically what they thought his shortcomings were. There's a little clip of him on this documentary and he seems very smug and he's just kind of like an old man who's very smug and seems very proud of himself. Sounds like any attorney. Exactly. But they believe that there's no way Zach committed this crime.

On the documentary, they both say that they separately asked Zach while looking deep into his eyes if he had done this to Greg. And he told them both, no, that he'd never hurt Greg. He loved him. See, I just can't imagine a stranger coming in and doing this and then burying the murder weapon on the property. I mean, that just doesn't really make sense. It makes no sense.

But if you want to commit the crime, get rid of the evidence, and have it all happen very quickly, then, yeah, I mean, it has to be one person. Yeah. Yeah. Sue really believed and she kind of just grew in this belief over the years that this had all come down to tunnel vision. They decided very quickly that Zach was the one who had done this and they'd only work to confirm that, never work to rule that out, never work to consider

anyone else. She thought there were major problems with the investigation, the fact that the investigators had never used luminol before. And there was some question about how accurate their luminol tests were. I mean, at the end of the day, they led them to the murder weapon. So they had to be fairly accurate. But there's some concerns that because the luminol was used outside near the hot tub, that luminol can actually react with the chemicals that are in a hot tub. P? No, the chemicals that are used in the water. Oh, okay.

And so there's questions about how accurate those footprints were that they found that led them out. But it took them to the murder weapon. Yeah. I mean, you really, I don't know that you can really argue that. Sue and Ron say the years after Zach was convicted were really difficult. They really felt like they were in kind of limbo with this case. You know, it seems like there's a lot to do, but daily there's not.

So it's like every day you're waiting to hear if there's been a ruling on your appeal. They stayed in the house because Sue was adamant that if he could get a new trial and the jury could come to the house and see where this murder occurred, that they would 100 percent know that a 15 year old boy could not have done what the crime scene showed. So their appeals are working. So their appeals are working And in 2012 There was a case Before the Supreme Court

Knew this was coming to you Where the Supreme Court ruled That it was unconstitutional For a minor to automatically Be sentenced to life in prison Without the possibility of parole It's horrible It's horrible

So that was a win for the women's life in prison without the possibility of parole. Yeah, it's horrible. It's horrible! So that was a win for the women's. But would it apply to Zach? They had to wait to find out if the Supreme Court would rule that it could be used retroactively. Yeah. So they waited. And they waited. And they waited. And they waited until 2016.

Oh, wow. When it was ruled that it could be used retroactively. So another four years go by. So now it's 2016. They're like, okay, great. So now it applies to Zach. Now we can file for post-conviction relief based on that Supreme Court ruling. But that would take more time. It wasn't until 2018 that Zach's sentence was thrown out and his conviction was actually overturned.

No way. Because it came out that his defense attorney prior to trial had been approached with a plea deal and he'd never told the Whitmans about it. What? You can't do that? Yeah. Why hadn't he told them? No idea.

What the fuck? Yeah. No idea. What the fuck? Yeah. No idea. Oh, that's inexcusable. Absolutely. So in 2018, his sentence is thrown out, his conviction is

overturned, and he's going to get a new trial. Wow. Wow. And the prosecution approached him with the idea of taking a plea deal instead of going to trial again. And Zach talked to his parents about this. Under the conditions of the plea deal, he would have to plead guilty and he would have to say in court, I stabbed my brother to death. But in return, he would be sentenced to a minimum of 15 years, but a maximum of 40 years. He'd already served almost 20 years oh my gosh at this point and his mom did not like the deal she was ready to have her son back and so ultimately she left

the decision up to him but she talks about on this documentary how she didn't understand it she didn't understand why he would have to say yes i'm guilty yes I did this. And Ron's position on it was like, whatever you have to do to get out of there, you do it. Yeah. And so in February of 2018, Zach took the plea deal. He pled guilty to third degree murder. And a judge asked him in court, did you kill your brother? The judge asked him in court, did you kill your brother? And he said, yes, I can say that I killed my brother by stabbing him. Prior to this hearing, Zach had been required to meet with the prosecution and tell them what had happened that day. So Sue and Ron do not believe this to be the truth.

They believe that this is what Zach did to have a chance at getting out of prison. Okay. I think it's likely the truth. All right, let's hear it. So he told the prosecution that he'd been at home that day, he'd been sick, he'd been sleeping, and that the phone had rung a couple times. And so he was irritated. The phone had rung. He picked it up, hung it up, picked it up,

hung it up. And it had been Greg's girlfriend. So Greg gets home from school. Zach comes down and Greg finds out that Zach had hung up on his girlfriend a couple times. And they got in a fight about it. And so Zach told the prosecutors that he'd gone up to his room and he'd grabbed those soccer gloves and he'd grabbed a knife and that he was just going to scare Greg. But when he came downstairs, the fight had escalated and he'd stabbed him. And before he knew what had happened, Greg was dead.

That sounds very believable. I agree. I totally agree. Yeah, I think it's very believable. So he was sentenced to that 50 to 40 years, which would make him eligible for. I'm sorry. Yes. Which would make him eligible for 15. I'm sorry. Yes. 15 to 40 years, which made him eligible for parole as early as January of 2019.

OK. And so in January, he applied for parole. He went before the parole board. And they approved him. Yeah. And he was released from prison on Tuesday, May 21, 2019. He was 36 years old. After he was resentenced, his parents finally sold the house, and they moved. And upon his release, he moved in with them at his new house, and he said he was working on becoming a productive member of society.

Wow. Ron and Sue said this whole thing completely destroyed their marriage. They are still married. But Ron said on this documentary that he and Sue just cope very differently. And they never had the opportunity to mourn Greg. Their whole life turned into fighting for Zach. And so he said at this point in their lives, they are roommates, not husband and wife, though they do remain married.

not husband and wife, though they do remain married. Sue was asked in an interview right around the time that Zach was released how she was feeling, and she said, I'm the happiest I've been in 21 years. Wow. Ron and Sue, it seems, truly do not believe that Zach is guilty. I can't imagine anything harder than losing one son and then thinking that your other son was the one who killed him. I completely agree. Nothing could be harder than that.

It would be much easier to tell yourself. You would have to tell yourself. Yeah. Yeah. It was anybody else. There is, so they talk about this a little bit on the documentary too, that there is a another suspect.

Really? Well, let's hear it. So the Whitmans have hired a private investigator to look into this other suspect because this case is closed. Yeah. Yeah. On the books, Zach is guilty of murdering Greg. But a neighbor came forward a few years after this all happened. She was an older woman who asked to remain anonymous. overheard a kid in the neighborhood talking about how much he hated the rich kids who lived in the neighborhood and as he was talking about it he had this little pocket knife this little pin knife

that he was using to clean out under his fingernails and as he was talking he said someone should just kill those rich kids and hide the evidence. They'd never find it. Hmm. I don't know. I don't like it. Yeah. But right after Greg was murdered, that kid's family moved away.

Really? Yep. According to this woman. Well, I mean, I don't think it's likely. If it is, then I'm an asshole because I've been saying he did it this whole time. The evidence completely points to him. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's the story of brothers. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. And that's the story of brothers. Thanks a lot. You're welcome. We can always count on you for a fun story about a happy family. Thank the High Priestess

of Costco. I had never heard of this case. Thank you, High Priestess of Costco. You'll get nothing but respect from us. That's exactly right.

You know what we haven't done? Mentioned our Patreon. You know what else you can get for $5? Yeah. You can get into our fucking Discord. And you get bonus episodes. You get 26 of those meaty boy bonus episodes. You get into our Discord to chitty chat the day away.

Isn't it 27 now? It's 27 now. People, would you get it right? You make me sick. We've also got other benefits at the $7 level. You get all that. Plus, you get a monthly Zoom hangout. You get a sticker, our lovely

autographs. You get inducted at the end of the podcast. And at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level, you get all that stuff. Plus, you get inducted at the end of the podcast and at the ten dollar level that's the bob moss level you get all that stuff plus you get ad free episodes a day early and 10 off merch so much shit some of it quite good yeah all of it quite good and now we are taking questions from our discord unity gooch wants to know favorite fall scent I saw a candle called flannel and it surprisingly didn't smell like a lumberjack I know that candle

well and I love it it is a fall scent from Bath and Body Works and you bet your sweet ass I have a three wick candle of it in my home at this exact moment. Brandy, no one wants to hear about your flashy lifestyle with your three-wick candle.

Some of us are dealing with a one-wick lifestyle or even a two-wick lifestyle. Got a question aimed at the fabulous me. Oh. That's exactly right, said Kristen. Listening to you really helped me get over the fear and finally get on anxiety meds. Thank you so much. If it's not too private, how are they treating you many months later? Is it something you plan to stay on long term?

How dare you ask this question? It is private. No. Can you imagine if I read that question aloud just to shame someone? Oh, my gosh. Yeah, so I went on the generic Prozac. God, how long ago was that? A long time ago.

Yeah. A long time ago. Several months ago. I fucking love it. Yeah. I feel exactly the same way I did when I finally got on asthma medication, which was like, oh, my God, how did I live before I had this stuff? I know it's really common for a lot of people to be like, I'm just going to be on this for a while. I've I've never really had that thought. It really helps me take better care of myself.

And I just I don't see it as something that I want to get off of one day. I mean, maybe I will. But no, I think I'm in it for the long haul with medication. It has really helped me. And if you need help, you get out there and get it. Absolutely. Harry Titty says, today's my wedding anniversary. No questions, just want to brag. Brag away. Happy anniversary. A local frog asks, Brandy, what is the wildest thing you've seen while house hunting? There is something that I see a lot and I just will never understand. Okay, let's hear it. Carpet in the bathroom. Oh, yeah, that's gross.

I do not understand that. That is so nasty. It is. Uh-huh. You know what I also don't understand, but I don't think it's quite as gross? Kitchen carpet. Kitchen carpet, yeah. I don't get kitchen carpet either. I think it's quite as gross? Kitchen carpet. Kitchen carpet. Yeah.

I don't get kitchen carpet either. I would agree. Not as gross. Still pretty gross, but. Yeah. How do you keep that clean, first of all? You don't. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Oh, my gosh. The High Priestess of Orgasm says, what's the worst thing he said to you in a work setting? One time I had to go to work right after my boyfriend and I had broken up. My boss found out and said, that's so sad. I know you were planning on getting married and moving in together soon. She does not handle these situations delicately. Oh, my God.

That hit me like a punch to the gut. Oh, no. I'm very sorry that that happened to you. No kidding. Because, you know, it was such an important relationship and you must be devastated right now. I've had a lot of bad things said to me at work. Yeah. I can't pick just one.

I know. Just one. I know. Hmm. The first thing that comes to mind is when I was, I was super sick and I was talking to my boss about needing to take a leave of absence. So this is when I was with my corporate job. I was a district manager. And this is when I was dealing with all my thyroid stuff.

And so I approached my boss who, it just was not a great work environment. Like, I had actually loved every boss I'd ever worked for until I worked for him um it just wasn't it just wasn't great we didn't vibe um and I told him you know I'm just I'm I've told you that I'm really sick and I'm just I'm not getting better because I'm not able to focus on my health I focus focus so much on work. So I'm going to have to step back and take a leave of absence. And he was like, oh, yeah, absolutely. You know what? Let's focus on getting you back to Brandy and then we'll get you back to work. And and I think that's just going to be best for everyone. And I saw that was like the most condescending thing to say. Yeah.

Let's just focus on getting you back to Brandy. Yeah, I don't love that. Yeah, so I took a leave of absence and never went back to that job. But are you back to Brandy? Or are you secretly a whole new woman? That's secretly someone else. Richard N. Balls says, what are your favorite cooking shows? I'm a slut for Chopped, and I'm currently binging every season of Halloween Baking Championship.

Oh, and I love America's Test Kitchen. First of all, I love the idea of being a slut for anything on the Food Network. Absolutely. Okay. The Barefoot Contessa is just magical. She's too serious for me. I can't. What?

No, no, no. She's not serious. She makes food for parties for a cat's birthday. I mean, she's very classy. I know. Maybe that's what I mean. She's too classy for me. Have you watched her Back to Basics series?

I mean, she's making burgers. No, I've not. With delicious... You know what your problem is? She says stuff like, make sure you have good olive oil, and you just assume my olive oil's not good enough. I guarantee my olive oil's not good enough. It's made by Always Safe. Well, it says best choice right on the bottle, so I don't know what you want from me.

Well, it says best choice right on the bottle. What do you want from me? We are currently in my household watching Hell's Kitchen, the latest season. Young Guns. Every competitor was 23 years of age or less. I think it's over, but we are not finished with it yet. We're still, you know, got a couple episodes left. I also love the Great British Baking Show.

Well, who doesn't? Come on. Give me a break. I personally do not like Chopped. You don't like Chopped? Norm burned me out on Chopped. He fucking loved it. He was a slut for Chopped.

Yeah, I love Chopped, too. But I would eat nothing they make on that show. Well, see, and I would eat this stuff, but it's like, I don't like stress in the kitchen. I feel like it needs to be like Nigella Lawson. Did you ever watch her? Oh, yeah. Oh, love it. Yeah. Vampire Witch Super Soaker wants to know, ever have pee dreams?

I have pee dreams all the time. I swear that I am constantly like one deep sleep away from wetting the bed. Okay, I have to tell my story now. Everyone, look out. This could happen to you. Well, no. How could it happen? I'm still shocked at how many.

I think it could happen to me any day. Well, okay. Was it two weeks ago? Yeah, probably three weeks ago. I was in bed, asleep. I had a dream that I was on the toilet in my bathroom. Like it was a very real feeling dream. And I peed a little.

Next thing I know, I wake up. I'm in bed. I have to change my shorts. Okay, so you told me that and you were like, I cannot believe I couldn't believe that happened. And I swear to you, I think I am, I am so close to that happening very regularly. I have pee dreams all the time. And most of the time in the dream, I don't start peeing. But there have been a couple of times where I'm like, oh, finally, there's a clean toilet. That's always my dream.

Like I'm somewhere. There's all of these stalls. But every toilet is clogged or disgusting. And so I'm just looking like for the one that I can just manage to get into. And a couple of times I have found the clean stall. And then I just wake up. Like I swear seconds before I wet the bed. Yeah, I guarantee you it's seconds before.

Yes. Uh-huh. So I think as a, I am here to tell, I am loud and proud adult woman who I think could any day now pee the bed. Norman was just like, you did what? Norman was just like, you did what? Apparently, it's weird to be an adult who tinkles a little in their sleep. All right, you know what I think we should do now? Oh, should we do Supreme Court inductions?

I think we should. No! And you know, we are reading your names and favorite cookies, and it has come to my attention that horrible, horrible people like my parents and like David sometimes don't listen to the inductions portion of the podcast. And then when we have a fabulous joke about Mandelflarn, they don't know what we're talking about. Oh, my gosh. So when the episode where I died over Mandelflarn came out, I went home and, you know, David always listens to the podcast. And I was like, oh, my gosh, wasn't that Mandelflarn thing so funny? And David goes, yeah. And then a tiny bead of sweat trickled down his face.

And I looked at him and I was like, you have no idea what I'm talking about here. And he's like, no. And I was like, you don no idea what I'm talking about you. And he's like, no. And I was like, you don't listen to the whole podcast. And he said, I listen to the cases and I listen to the questions, but I usually stop at Supreme Court inductions. And so then I forced him against his will to listen. And he did laugh. Well, so my parents were like, hey, that, you know, that Zoom call where you all made mandelflorn, that was so fun.

Why'd you do that? And I was like, oh, you have the nerve to call yourselves my parents. My mom felt guilty. My dad did not. Of course. Yeah. And here we go. On brand.

Suzanne Mello. Lemon sugar cookies. Sabrina McAnulty. Chocolate brand. Suzanne Mello. Lemon sugar cookies. Sabrina McAnulty. Chocolate chip. Shannon Schroeder. Homemade monster cookies. Lindsay Crabtree. Chocolate chip oatmeal raisin.

Haley Sturgeon. Valerie's chocolate chip oatmeal with coconut. Jen. Frozen Milanos. Ooh, are those good? Frozen? I've never tried. I guess I'm just going to have to get some Milanos and try that out.

I know what I'll be doing tonight. Emily Hattie, almond shortbread cookies with cherry frosting. Ooh, that does sound good. And cherry frosting. Cherry? Yeah. Do you not like cherries? I don't like cherry. I don't think I want cherry flavored frosting.

Well, it's not like steak flavored frosting. I mean, it's a sweet thing. It pairs well. Your sweet thing. Oh. I'm even better in the freezer. Lauren M. Coconut chocolate chip cookies.

Haley Fisher. Jammy Dod cookies. Haley Fisher. Jammy Dodger. Natalie Joyner. Anything from Good Night Fatties. Come to Salem and try them. I would love to come to Salem. That sounds amazing. Jenna Tomsko.

Pecan Sandies. Cassandra Tripp. Peanut butter. Frances. Dark chocolate chip. Divine Brown. Peanut butter cookie Frances. Dark chocolate chip. Divine brown. Peanut butter cookie cups with dark chocolate ganache. Well, my mom makes something like that.

It's a peanut butter cookie that she makes in a mini muffin pan. Oh, my God. Stop it. And then when they are warm and they come out of the oven, you smush a miniature Reese's peanut butter cup down into it. Yep. Mm-hmm. It's good. Yep.

Yep. Love those. I think my mother-in-law makes something like, oh, all right. Megan Willie. Iced lemon sugar cookies. Amelia Stewart. White chocolate macadamia nut cookies. Stacey R.

Whatever my hormones dictate, but no raisins. Shannon Strahoda. Maple cookies with maple frosting. Oh my God, that sounds so good. I do like maple. Shelly Turner. Brown butter pumpkin chocolate chip. And then she says, I'm very aware that Kristen hates my name, so until I receive an apology, I'm team Brittany.

Okay, true story. I forgot a million episodes ago. I said I didn't like the name Shelly. And I was like, how could she say that? I don't, well, you know what? Hey, I don't like the name Shelly. I'm sorry, Shelly. On your hockey.

White chocolate brookies. It's a brownie cookie combo, but they need to be fresh out of the oven. Okay. All right. All right. Welcome to the Supreme Court. If you're looking for, oh, wait, no. Jesus, hold on.

Jesus, take the wheel. Jesus, take the wheel. Thank you for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. On Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit,

Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five star

rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week for a full list of our sources. What? You're the only one who's allowed to join us? You're allowed a full list of our sources, visit What? You're the only one who's allowed to block it up. Yes.

When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web,

and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from Paul Slade's article, Demon in a Bottle, The Duke's Nut Affair, for Planet Slade, the Uniontown Public Library's multi-part series developed by Rachel Zajac titled, An Honorable Vengeance, The Duke's Nut Saga,

as well as Murder by Gaslight and newspapers.com. I got my info from the documentary The Whitmans, The Court Record, The York Daily Record, WITF.org and grunge.com. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.