Let's Go To Court! - 191: Bresha Meadows & Nailah Franklin

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Bresha Meadows had run out of options. She’d tried talking to the police. She’d tried running away from home. She tried everything she could think of to get away from her abusive father. Nothing seemed to work. So, in July of 2016, when she was 14 years old, Bresha took her father’s gun and killed him in his sleep.  Then Kristin tells us about Nailah Franklin, a pharmaceutical sales rep who seemed to be living the good life. She had a big, loving family, close friends, and a new relationship with a handsome lawyer. There was just one thing that wasn’t right -- her douchebag ex-boyfriend, Reginald Potts.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Smoke and Mirrors,” episode of Dateline “Man Convicted in 2007 Killing of Pharmaceutical Sales Rep Nailah Franklin Sentenced to Life in Prison,” by Charlie Wojciechowski for NBC Chicago “Reginald Potts guilty of murder in 2007 death of Nailah Franklin,” by Michelle Gallardo Rob Elgas for ABC News “Woman called Reginald Potts 'pathological' in email before killing,” by Steve Schmadeke for the Chicago Tribune “Remembering Nailah Franklin,” by Dawn Turner for the Chicago Tribune “Nailah Franklin’s Boyfriend Says He Sent Her An Email Asking: ‘Are You Alive?’” CBS Chicago “Sentencing begins for man in 2007 murder of Nailah Franklin,” by Steve Schmadeke for the Chicago Tribune “Reginald Potts found guilty of killing Nailah Franklin,” Fox 32 Chicago “After wrenching week of hearings, judge to sentence Franklin’s killer,” by Steve Schmadeke for the Chicago Tribune “Testimony concludes in trial of man charged with killing Nailah Franklin,” CBS Chicago “Reginald Potts Sentenced To Life In Prison For Murder Of Nailah Franklin,” CBS CHicago In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Bresha Meadows Thought You’d Understand” by Melissa Jeltsen, The Huffington Post “Bresha Meadows' cousin says he also was abused by Jonathan Meadows” by Andrea Simakis, The Plain Dealer “Murder or self defense? Bresha Meadows accused of killing father” by John Caniglia, The Plain Dealer “Bresha Meadows Returns Home After Collective Organizing Efforts” by Mariame Kaba and Colby Lenz, TeenVogue “Who is Bresha Meadows? 16-year-old, who killed her allegedly abusive father, released from custody” by Najja Parker, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution “Bresha Meadows, Ohio Teenager Who Fatally Shot Her Father, Accepts Plea Deal” by Jonah Engel Bromwich, The New York Times “Alumni Story: CMLaw HOF Member And Friedman Reflects On The Bresha Meadows Case” Cleveland-Marshall College of Law YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about Naila Franklin.

And I'll be talking about Brescia Meadows. These are very vague intros we've given here. Are we on a theme? We are on a theme. Oh, shut up. Shut up, are we really? Yeah. Brandy.

We were given kind of a call to action. We were given a call to action. I actually mentioned it in my script. Should we start it right at the top? Okay. Okay. You take it away. Okay.

So we had somebody reach out to us in the Discord. I should find who it is. It's PowerlessGobsOfCome. Okay. PowerlessGobsOfCome reached out to us and was like, hey. Oh, which that's a comment. That's from another episode. It's a little inside joke. It's not someone being super gross, although it is a little gross.

It's pretty gross, but that's a another episode. It's a little inside joke. It's not someone being super gross, although it is a little gross. It's pretty gross, but that's a Kristen original. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I was like, hey, it would be awesome if you guys covered cases involving people of color that didn't center around racism. Yeah, so she pointed out, you know, we talked about, you know, the Gabby case and how women of color don't get the same media coverage. So she's like, well, why don't you cover women of color who get kidnapped or murdered or any of that?

I'm actually going to read the quote. Oh, yeah. It's a good quote. Please do. It also hit me like a Mack truck because it was very true. She said, most of the cases involving black people that are covered are racism based. And as a black person, I would feel much more validated by hearing about normal black people who have been murdered just by existing because black people don't only exist

within the context of racism. That comment made me realize that I've gone balls out on the school segregation cases and the hate crime cases, but balls in. Balls in. Balls all the way up inside our bodies. On just like your standard murder cases. Absolutely. I had no idea you were going to do this. Yeah, I didn't either.

What? I'm wondering if I should say this. Say it and we'll cut it if we need to cut it. Okay, so I have been doing a theme and I was like, I'm going to continue doing it until someone notices that I'm doing a theme. What's the theme?

And then I found this case that fits my theme that I've been doing and I was like, oh, excellent. What was your theme? For the last, I think today's episode is number 10 in a row. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Let me go look back at our episodes because my memory is terrible. Including bonus episodes, I believe this is my 10th episode in a row that fits my theme. I don't know it. What's your theme? Teenagers who kill. Oh, you weirdo. Oh, you weirdo. Great.

Yeah. Great. And so then we had that kind of call to action. And I was like, I'm going to find one that. Yeah. You want to hear something funny that I did? Yeah. Oh, my God.

This is so terrible. So, you know, she called us out and I was like, oh, shit, that's true. Yeah. I mean, there are certain types of cases that I like and I don't like the standard murder cases. Right. And, you know, I have, I don't know that I've covered any just like standard murder cases about people of color. Huh? Yeah, I don't know that I have. Probably not. Yeah. So anyway, I'm like, all right, well, this week going to change that up.

Yeah. So, you know, I'm like searching, searching, searching. And I found this case of this black man who was murdered and the case went cold for 34 years. And his killers have just recently been brought to justice. And I was like, holy shit, amazing. That's what I'm doing. I start to get into it. Turns out he was the victim of, like, the most horrible hate crime you've ever heard. Oh, well, fuck!

They cut off his genitals. Oh, my gosh! But I was so into the case, I was like, you know what? Powerless gobs are coming. She's going to be fine with it. And then I went and re-read her comment. I was like, you know what? Powerless gobs are coming. She's going to be fine with it. And then I went and re-read her comment. I was like, I don't think she will be fine with it. I don't think this is what she asked for.

It's like, just exactly the opposite. So anyway, here we go. I'm so excited. Yeah. Get ready to experience an all-new Dawn Valley North Lexus. Dawn Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop, though.

Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. Don Valley North, Don Valley North Collection. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. Okay. All right, do you want to talk about Brescia Meadows? Should we plug our Patreon first? Oh, yeah.

We were totally unprofessional last week. Last time we didn't even promote it until like the very end. Yeah, and only 12 people were listening at that point. They've tuned us out. Right now we've got 16. Let's get them, Brandi. All right. Hey, is this podcast on a weekly basis just not enough for you?

I bet it's not. Then you should join us over on our Patreon where we've got three tiers. Woo! Three hot tiers of bonus content. That sounds like sad tears. At the $5 tier, you get a monthly bonus episode. That's 27. There's 27 of them.

Go binge them right now. Also, you get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. At the $7 level, you get all that plus a Zoom hangout once a month. That's pretty fun. Access to our previous recordings of our Zoom hangouts. And you get inducted on this this podcast you also get a sticker and that is right our autographs that is true as well value tbd that's right at the ten dollar level you get all that plus you get your episodes a day early and you get them ad free. That's right.

And 10% off merch. Woo! The rewards are endless. All right. Well, except that's where they end. I think we plugged that up real good. It's perfect. Just like a tampon.

Would you say tampons are perfect? You said you plugged that, plugged it up real good. And you said just like a tampon. Perfect. Did I say perfect? I think you said perfect. We're going to have to roll the tape. I've just never held a tampon.

I've been like, you know what? This tampon is perfect. Neither have I. Nor have I. Okay. Let me give a couple of shout outs right off the top to an article. I'm sorry. I'm not going to shout out the article.

I'm going to shout out the author of the article. Very good. Melissa Jeltsin for her article for the Huffington Post. And also shout out to Andrea Simakis and John Coniglia for their articles for The Plain Dealer, which is a newspaper. Tell me something I don't know. You ready? I am ready.

I'm so mad that you've been doing a theme secretly. I can't believe no one has caught the theme. Here's the thing. I did it sneaky because my cases don't really feel like they have anything in common because like there are other cases in there that kind of like, you know. Well, they're always terrible. Well, yeah. All right.

Here we go. Okay. The weight of the.45 caliber handgun felt heavy. Wow. We're starting off real rough right off the top. In 14-year-old Bresha Meadows' hands as she pulled it from beneath her father's pillow. Oh, God. She stood there, weighing her options. She put the gun down, picked it back up, put it down, picked it up, over and over, as images of her potential future

flashed through her head. She pictured her mom in a casket, a beating gone too far. She pictured her big brother and sister getting old enough to move out on their own. to move out on their own. She pictured their house empty, only her father and her left there, no one around to intervene. This is never going to stop, Bresha thought to herself as she walked to the living room, where her father, 41-year-old Johnny Meadows, lay passed out on the couch after a night of drinking vodka and smoking marijuana. That's too much. You've got to pick one. Right, yeah, pick a lane. It's only going to get worse.

The painful realization repeated itself in her mind as she raised the gun, pulled the trigger, and fired a single shot into her father's head. What happened next is a blur to Brescia. She doesn't remember screaming, but her mother, Brandy Meadows, recalled that when the gunshot woke her sometime after 3 a.m. on July 28, 2016, A gunshot woke her sometime after 3 a.m. on July 28, 2016. She ran to the living room to find Brescia standing there screaming.

She described it as a deafening, unearthly cry. Brescia remembers running upstairs and jumping in a cold shower fully clothed. She felt like she was going into shock and thought that the cold water would bring her out of it. She remembers being soaking wet when the police arrived at the house her mother had called them. And she remembers that the responding officers, all men, let her put on dry clothes before placing her under arrest, but that they had insisted they stay in the room with her as she did so. It hadn't even occurred to Bresha that she would be arrested, that she could be arrested. This was her way out, the only way out that she could see.

She was fighting for her life, something she had done since she was eight years old. This was self-defense. She thought someone, anyone, would understand. The abuse had been documented. the abuse had been documented. Bresha had known her father to be abusive her whole life. Most of the time, the abuse was directed at her mother, who had married her father at 19.

Bresha remembers seeing countless bruises and black eyes on her mother over the years. Most of the time, her father would save the beatings for when he and Brandy were in their bedroom behind closed doors. But sometimes, when he'd been drinking, he'd forget to close the door. Berisha remembers a time in particular when she heard her parents arguing and heard a thud. She'd poked her head out of her room to see what was going on, and she saw her mother knocked out cold on the floor. When Brisha was eight years old, her father started molesting her. Oh, my God. molesting her. Oh my god. He turned Brisha's cute childhood nightly routine of tucking her into no oh my god into nightly dread. He told her it needed to be their little secret and she kept it

but shortly after the sexual abuse began she started asking her mom if they could leave daddy. abuse began, she started asking her mom if they could leave daddy. Brandy later recalled that Brisha was actually the first one to bring up the topic of leaving to her, but it wasn't something she felt strong enough to do. She was scared. Life with Johnny was the only thing she knew. Well, and if he's abusive, he's much more likely to escalate once you've left. Yeah, absolutely. In 2011, though, when Brisha was nine, Brandy had a stroke and was in the hospital. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Yeah. She would have been very young. Yeah, no kidding. Okay. Yeah. She would have been very young. Yeah. No kidding. OK. So she was in the hospital for a week and she said the medical emergency was the wake up call she needed. She'd said laying in that hospital, she'd realized that this was not the life she wanted. What if she had died? Would this life, a life of being beat in front of her children, would that be the life they remembered? So as soon as she was healthy enough, she left. As is so common in these stories of abuse, Brandy was estranged from her family. Well, they isolate you from your family. Absolutely.

But she gathered up her kids she took them to the k-mart near their home in warren ohio and she called her mother they hadn't seen or spoken to each other in years but she asked her to come pick them up and she did oh my god as they drove toward her mother's home in Parma Heights about an hour away, Brandy let her mom in on all that she had been enduring over her 17 years of marriage to Johnny. When they arrived in Parma Heights, Brandy went to the police station and filed for a civil order of protection. and filed for a civil order of protection. It was in that report that Brandy put down on paper the details of her husband's brutality for the first time. This is what she wrote. In the 17 years of our marriage,

he has cut me, broken my ribs, fingers, the blood vessels in my hand, my mouth. He's blackened my eyes. If he finds us, I am 100% sure he will kill me and the children. Brandy's own sister, Martina Letessa, was a detective in the Cleveland Police Department's domestic violence unit. Well, shit, that's handy. Yeah. Okay.

And she was absolutely crushed to learn that her sister was in the same situation she worked to help women get out of every day. Yeah. Martina knew the cycle of these types of abusive relationships. So she wasn't surprised when after a couple of months, Brandy decided to reconcile with Johnny. She got the protective order dropped. Johnny told her all the right things to say to make it happen. And she moved herself and the kids back home with him. So as I mentioned, obviously, Martina knew that this was extremely common, but she wasn't just going to stand by and let it happen. So she drove to the Meadows home in Warren and attempted to talk to Brandy to persuade her to not do this.

But when she got there, her nephew, J.R., Brescia's older brother, answered the door and he told her to not do this. But when she got there, her nephew, J.R., Breesha's older brother, answered the door, and he told her to leave. He said, please, Martina, don't come in here. My dad has guns, and he will kill you. He also told her not to worry, that he and the girls were looking out for their mom. He said, we all try not to leave her alone with him anymore.

One of us is always home with her. Brisha recalls that things in the Meadows home deteriorated even further after that. Johnny felt betrayed by his children. Oh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, great. And he was afraid that they'd leave him again, given the opportunity.

So he grew more controlling. When Brisha was 12 years old, her father raped her for the first time of course it wouldn't be the only time brisha did share a room with her older sister brianna though so he had to wait for opportunities when she was alone but But he found them. Of course. Again, Brescia didn't tell anyone about the sexual abuse. But in January of 2015, when she was 13, she ran away. She called her aunts, Martina and Gina, in Cleveland and asked them to help her. They picked her up at an abandoned house in Warren.

Brescia was so scared that she had wet herself while waiting for them to come get her. They took Brisha to Cleveland, got her cleaned up, into fresh clothes, and then Martina sat her down and was like,

what the hell is going on in that house? Brisha hadn't seen her aunts at all in the four years that had passed since that initial attempt for them to leave. Mm-hmm. And she kind of filled them in on what had been going on.

She said, he choked mommy out. Mommy was on the floor. He punches her. He's mean to us. He has guns. We're scared. Martina listened to Brescia and observed her as she did. As a trained professional, she saw signs that many could miss. The self-harm marks on Brescia, the way she rubbed her hands together when she talked,

her closed-off nature, it all told Martina that she was likely being sexually abused. But she didn't ask. Brescia was only in Cleveland for a short time before Martina learned that Brandy and Johnny had reported her missing.

She told Bresha that she had to go home. Bresha cried and begged her aunt not to make her go back to that house. On the drive back to Warren, she laid in the backseat crying, nearly comatose. Oh, God. Yeah, it's terrible. Martina took Brescia to the Warren Police Department. There, they took Brescia into a room to be interviewed, while Martina told officers what she knew. She told them who she was and what she did for a living. And she said, listen, this is a bad case.

That man is going to kill my sister. If nothing happens here, you are going to call me in the middle of the night and say my sister is dead. That will be our next conversation. Yeah. sister is dead. That will be our next conversation. Yeah. The officers seemed very receptive to what Martina was telling them. They told her that they didn't receive a lot of training in domestic violence. Oh, shit. Okay, great. And Martina told them that she would be willing to come in and do a workshop with them. Business cards and phone numbers were exchanged. Can you imagine?

No. Yeah. You're having to take your niece back to this situation, and the cops are like, real nice, but don't know their ass from their elbow. Yeah. Nothing ever happened with this. Brisha's claims were never reported to social workers. In fact, it appears that no report was made at all of her interview that night. Just a note in a log that Brescia arrived at the station at 10.53 p.m. and that she was returned to her parents' custody. Wow.

Yeah. But they didn't have training on domestic violence. Or basic note-taking. Well, I guess they're off the hook then, huh? Yeah. Well, I guess they're off the hook then. Yeah. Yeah. I did see a mention in a couple of these articles that the Warren Police Department declined to comment for the articles. They're not trained in media interviews.

Right. In the spring of 2016, three months before the shooting, the Meadows family moved into a new home. For the first time in her life, Brescia had a room of her own. She was not excited. Yeah. Instead, she became suicidal. And in May, she ran away again. And again, she ended up in Cleveland with her aunts.

This time, her aunts called the Trumbull County Children's Services or called. There shouldn't be a the. Everybody go back and pretend I didn't put that there. OK. Got it. Everybody following along like the Facebook. That's right. It's just Facebook.

It's just Trumbull County Children's Services. That's right. It's just Facebook. It's just Trumbull County Children's Services. That's right. Someone needed to intervene. Finally, a social worker came out to the home and asked questions. But Johnny had already coached Brandy. He told her exactly what she was supposed to say. Brisha was lying. So were her aunts.

Everything was fine. They asked Brandy and Johnny that were the reports that they had received from Martina that Brisha was cutting herself. Were those true? And Brandy said no. She said she had no choice but to lie. But Johnny was sitting right next to her. Okay, well, that's stupid that they were interviewed together. Yeah.

But also some of this stuff, you just observe the child, right? Yeah. Is she cutting herself? Well, let's see. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ugh. On that day, they conducted a 20-minute interview,

and the agency found that the allegations were unfounded. that the allegations were unfounded. Martina and her sister Gina were told that they had to return Brescia to her home in Warren. They made a decision of this magnitude after talking to someone for 20 minutes. Well, you can't say they didn't put in the time. Yep. When Brescia found out, she collapsed onto the floor.

She said, I'd rather be dead than go back to that house. Yeah. For what it's worth, it seems her aunts tried to do what they could to help her. Ants tried to do what they could to help her. At that point, they actually admitted her to the Windsor Laurel Center for Behavioral Medicine in Willoughby, where she spent about a week. She was given some kind of prescription and a recommendation to attend some counseling. And then she was sent back home.

She had no choice. Yeah, no. Yeah. Yeah. A friend of the family recalls that, like, after that time, Bresha seemed extremely depressed. She would cry constantly. She would just lay around the house crying, and Johnny yelled at her and called her names for it. It was June when she returned home.

turned home. By July, Johnny was dead and Brescia was in custody, charged with aggravated murder. Okay, no. No, absolutely not. Brescia had been failed by the system. She had been failed by every adult involved in her case leading up to the shooting. And now at 14, she was facing serious consequences. If tried as an adult, Brisha was facing life in prison. No, no, no, absolutely not okay keep it going this is terrible i hate it i know i'm very sorry are you are you brandy calls her daughter Bresha her hero. She says,

Got a Brandy with an I or a Y? It's a Brandy with an I. It's a Brandy with an I. Oh, well, okay. That's right. I'm surprised you didn't mention that earlier. I was hoping you'd ask. You know, I just assumed it had to be a Y if you didn't mention it.

I didn't want to, you know, make it about me. But it is about you, and that's just the fact. This is what Brandy said of her daughter, Bresha. She said, I wasn't strong enough to get out, and she helped me. And now Brandy needed to help her daughter fight for her freedom, something that, in my opinion, should never have been in question. No. This is such a clear case of self-defense to me.

But as the prosecution saw it, this was an open and shut case. Girl shoots father while he's sleeping. Girl is guilty of murder. Case closed. Yeah, well, that prosecutor is an idiot. There's no gray area in that prosecutor's mind. Yeah. The afternoon after Brescia was arrested, her family was put in contact with a criminal defense attorney named Ian Friedman. He was one of the most sought after defense attorneys in Ohio.

Ian Friedman. He was one of the most sought-after defense attorneys in Ohio. Ian was actually on his way home from work for the day when he received a call from someone at the Domestic Violence and Child Advocacy Center. And they shared Brescia's story with him. He agreed to meet with Brescia's family that evening but said that he wouldn't be able to take the case. His trial load was already too heavy. That evening when he met with Brandy and the rest of Breesha's family he told them the same thing that he felt for them and that he wished he could help but he simply didn't have the time. And truth be told he knew that the family didn't have the means to pay for his representation. But that day in his office, Brandy asked a favor.

Please, just meet with Brescia before you make a decision. And he agreed. That night, he went to the Trumbull County Juvenile Detention Center and he met with Brescia. He says it was a meeting that would change his life. Oh, my God. I have cried so much researching this case. I'm like, I don't know if I can do this next part. Okay.

So I picked this case and then I told David as I was researching, I was like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, I can't read about this and not cry. I don't know if I can deliver it and not cry. And so he was like, okay, this is what he says about his meeting with Brescia. Meeting Brescia, it was clear that she didn't have the means to mount the scope of defense that was going to be necessary in this case. And I was concerned that she didn't have the means to mount the scope of defense that was going to be necessary in this case. And I was concerned that she would just get pushed through the system. There was no way I could just walk away from her and let that happen. There was a sense that came over me that night that Breesha's case was the reason that I became a criminal defense attorney.

Oh, shit. He said that sitting there with Brescia, he couldn't help but think of his own daughter and how different things would be for her in this same situation. How different the legal system treated the haves versus the have-nots, white girls versus black girls. It wasn't right, and he knew he needed to take Brescia's case. From the parking lot of the detention center, Ian called his law partner, Eric Nemechek, and said, I'm sorry, I know our trial load is already heavy, but we have to take this case. And Eric laughed.

He said he already knew. He knew just because of the kind of lawyer that Ian was that he was going to take this case on. Well, and when you go and meet with the kid, I mean, it's kind of like, I don't know, when I go to a dog shelter. I'm walking out with a dog. when I go to a dog shelter. I'm walking out with a dog. From the beginning, Ian said this case was a terrifying battle. He said, if we made a mistake, even the slightest mistake,

a little girl could end up in prison and that would alter the course of her life. At his first meeting with the prosecution, it was clear that they expected this to be exactly what he was worried about. A quick push through the legal system. They planned to plea her out and sentence her through dual jurisdiction. Tell us about it, Brandi. She would be sentenced as a juvenile and then reevaluated and resentenced when she reached the age of 21. But Ian was like, uh-uh-uh, not so fast. He made it clear that they would not be quickly taking some deal and that he would be fighting to keep Brescia's case in juvenile court and only juvenile court. juvenile court. So Ian Friedman and his law office went to work filing motions to ensure that Brescia would be tried as a juvenile. And in the meantime, the case started gaining a lot of attention on

social media. The hashtag Free Brescia appeared on social media and a movement surfaced. Organizers coordinated calls to action and publicized widespread decentralized actions into organizing force to be reckoned with. Supporters across the world demanded change. They demanded action for Brescia. change. They demanded action for Brescia. I'm going to read directly to you now from an op-ed in Teen Vogue written by two of the organizers behind the Free Brescia movement. Miriam Kaba and Colby Lentz are two of the organizers behind that motion, and these are the actions they took in their words, women of color nationwide. We raised money for legal experts and emergency family support. We raised awareness about the abuse to prison pipeline for black girls and women

by producing a curriculum that was used at teach-ins and events across the country. We protested. We amped up support when Brescia was on suicide watch. We organized vigils. We solicited and circulated powerful artwork. We mobilized our allies in the anti-violence sector. We uplifted survival and freedom campaigns for other criminalized survivors. We wrote poetry and songs. We stormed Twitter. We organized court support for Brescia's wow yeah criminalized victims i've never heard

that term before but that's no that is exactly what this is yes yes i had never heard that term either and i was like that i love it it's exactly what this is yep and it worked. Hell yes! Okay. In December of 2016, a little over four months after Brescia was arrested, her defense team got their first win. Prosecutors announced that they would not try her as an adult. This removed the threat of a life sentence. The longest she could go to prison, if convicted, was until the age of 21.

This was good news, but to Brescia, 21 still seemed like a long ways away. Yeah. It seemed like forever. away. Yeah. It seemed like forever. It meant that she could spend the rest of her childhood behind bars, separated from her family. And Brisha was really struggling. Being in jail was a lot like being in her father's house. The authorities had complete control over her life. They controlled when she ate, when she slept, who she talked to. She felt powerless.

She said, it triggered me being in there. I'm like, you guys don't understand. I've been through this. Yeah. I've been through this. Yeah. Months went by and Brescia sunk into a deep depression. Her attorney, Ian Friedman, was worried.

Her family was worried. Her mental state was not good. She was on suicide watch multiple times. Ian Friedman said, it was insane. You had this girl whose condition was just deteriorating every day. To us, this was the central issue of the case. When Brescia had been in jail for over eight months, Ian Friedman knew he had to take action. He filed a motion urging the judge to release Brescia and put her like on house arrest with a monitoring bracelet. He said that the lack of mental health services inside the juvenile detention center was cruel and unusual punishment for Brescia. In the motion, he said it was clear that Brescia had sustained real trauma throughout her

life and that she needed care. And here she was sitting in jail for excess of 250 days without it. days without it. He attached study after study to his 21-page motion that showed the negative effects of long periods of incarceration on teens. He argued that this research backed up what they believed proved that this would cause irreparable harm to Brescia. Absolutely. 100%. And the motion made some kind of impact, it seemed.

Because while it wasn't granted, she wasn't released, the month, they secured a plea deal for her. In May of 2017, Brescia entered a plea of true to an involuntary manslaughter charge. A plea of true? A plea of true. I've never even heard of that. So apparently that's how it's phrased in juvenile court. Do guilty or not guilty. They do true or of true. I've never even heard of that. So apparently that's how it's phrased in juvenile court. Oh. Do guilty or not guilty. They do true or not true.

Because even if you found, you're never found guilty. You're found delinquent in juvenile court. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's why it's phrased that way. So she entered a plea of true to an involuntary manslaughter charge. to an involuntary manslaughter charge. And she was sentenced to a year and a day in juvenile detention with credit for time served. So she would serve about another two months.

She'd been in for about 10 months at this point. And then she'd have to serve six additional months at a residential mental health facility, followed by two years of probation. This is what Ian Friedman says about this agreement. He said, the result ultimately reflected well on the juvenile justice system, but it wasn't an easy road getting there. It's extremely easy for a case with these facts to have a less equitable outcome. It was only after digging really deep into the root cause of the

shooting that you really start to understand the Brish's case. The first is that case facts for a child and an adult cannot be looked at similarly because a child's brain is not fully developed and responds to and interprets information differently than adults. Yeah. 100%. Completely agree. His second takeaway is that not every child needs to be locked up. Most of them just need help. Yep. They need mental health services.

They need to get the fuck away from their abusive dad. Yeah. And his third takeaway is that children can be quite resilient if given the right support. Friedman went on to say that he believes that there's obviously a lot of work to be done in the juvenile justice system, but he's hopeful that the free Brescia movement will stand for more than just this isolated case. He said there's some really caring people in the juvenile justice system, but the system has flaws. He pointed out there's inadequate funding, there's inconsistency with laws and case results. He said, oftentimes these cases are processed through the system, missing the critical component, the why. Yeah.

The answer to that question cannot come from just a superficial assessment. So Bresha did her sentence. She completed her two more months in the juvenile detention center and then completed six months in this mental health facility, which her family had to pay for. Oh, shit. I didn't realize that. Yeah, at the cost of like $40,000. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. And in February of 2018, Brisha returned home to her family. In 2019, she graduated from high school with a 4.0 GPA for the year. Oh. Yeah. And she's been going around the country since then talking to fellow victims and survivors. And one of these articles, the Huffington Post article, she was actually getting ready to go do her first speaking engagement. And she was super nervous and she's like, who am I?

But I think her story is so powerful. Well, and I think there are a lot like it. Yeah. Usually, I mean, usually you hear about the adult. Yeah. Who has been abused for so long. And then at a certain point, yeah, you fight back. Yeah. And it's not always as simple as the abuser is fighting back in that moment, too.

Yeah, absolutely. The abuse has been ongoing for years. Yeah. And so you take your shot when you can take your shot. Well, exactly. Exactly. You know, a 14-year-old girl doesn't stand a chance going hand-to-hand with her father. No.

She's been down that road before. Absolutely. She knows that's not going to work yeah brisha said she plans to go to college and maybe study criminal justice she said she might become a lawyer like ann friedman or a detective like her aunt martina or a domestic violence advocate so she can support families like her own. She said, most of the kids just need help, you know. They always had something behind why they were there, she said, speaking of the other

kids in the juvenile detention center. Not like an excuse, but you have to remember a kid has a kid's mind. We don't have adult minds. And so it's like for them to incarcerate us as if we're adults, it just crushes us. It messes with the mind. When Brescia reaches the age of 21, her record will be sealed and expunged. Organizers of the Free Brescia Movement, Mariam Kaba and Colby Lentz, wrote in their op-ed, Brescia should never have been incarcerated, but this is a win nonetheless.

And I couldn't agree more. Yeah. She absolutely should never have been incarcerated. Hell no. Hell no. Yeah. She absolutely should never have been incarcerated. Hell no. Hell no. Yeah. Absolutely not. She tried every other way to get away from that.

Yeah. She did the things that you do. She ran away. She told someone. She asked for help. Yeah. And she was failed. Yeah.

Over and over again. Yeah, and she wasn't just going to take it forever. No. I contemplated whether to include this. What is it? Johnny's family does not believe that Brisha acted in self-defense.

They said, yeah, he had a history of abuse, but that was way in the past. Oh, was it? And he had really come along to be a pretty good father. Oh, good for him. And that she killed him while he was sleeping. And that's obviously not self-defense. A ton of people feel that way. A ton of people feel it's only self-defense if they're coming at you in the moment.

I do not agree. In a case like this, I disagree. I completely disagree. I don't know what other choice she had. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the story of Bresha Meadows. Oh, that was really good. Yeah. And that's the story of Brescia Meadows. Oh, that was really good.

Yeah. Heartbreaking. But, I mean, you know, sometimes the bummer with these cases is it's bad, bad, real bad all the way through. This at least. Has a, yeah. Yeah. I think she should. You wouldn't call it a happy ending.

No, it's not a happy ending, but she still served fucking time, which I just cannot understand that at all. I don't really call that a victory, although I know by, you know, by the standards we're going by. Yeah. Yeah. Hoo! Hoo! Does it make you excited that my case is even worse than that? Oh, shit!

But first, let's do an ad. Okay, you ready to get into this shit? I sure am. I hate this case. I hate standard murders. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, that's so not your thing. No, it's not.

And you know what's so funny is we got that feedback last week. And you told me, hey, don't change what you're doing. And I totally misinterpreted what you meant by that. I didn't understand that you were meaning like, I will change what I'm doing. Yeah. And instead I thought you were just being like, don't worry about it. No, I think the feedback was great. No, obviously. Obviously. Yeah, I understand that's where you're at now. But I was like, OK, I got to get out of my my comfort zone here.

I hate being out of my comfort zone, turns out. All right. Here we go. Here we go on a terrible journey together oh no thank you powerless gobs have come for pointing out my blind spot but also how dare you shout outs to the smoke and mirrors episode of Dateline

this episode was hosted by the man, the myth, the legend, Mr. Keith Morrison. Ooh! Give it up to Keith Morrison! And although I did appreciate... Did you die? Did you die? Oh no! And although I did appreciate

the amount of poetic narration played over gritty B-roll, I did not enjoy the structure of this episode one bit. Oh, really? I fucking hated it. It made me really mad. Okay. And I was already in a bad mood, so it just set me off.

Okay, here's my issue with this episode. Dateline tried to make it, like, such a mystery as to who was responsible for this crime. It wasn't a mystery at all. Well, they played it that way. And I kind of was watching this and I thought, hmm, all right. But then afterward, you know, you watch the episode, then you start reading up on from other sources.

Well, turns out if you read up on this case from literally any other source, you see that it was not a big mystery. Yeah. And it's one of those classic stories that I fucking hate where a woman dates a guy. He seems great. She realizes he's actually a total bag of dicks. She dumps him. He attacks her. Fucking spoiler.

Well, this is like the plot of Snap. I guess you're episode over. Yeah, I mean, but they made it into a big mystery and I just think. That's how Dateline does it. I hate that. Because the truth is more compelling than that. Yeah. Yeah.

You listening, Dateline? The truth is more compelling. Yeah. Okay. Alright, well tell us the truth. The whole truth and nothing but the truth. Alright. No, that's not what you're supposed to say. You're supposed to say back. No, I can't handle the truth because I'm about to tell it.

It's Dateline that can't handle the truth. You are so fired up! I think that's bullshit. Because in the vast majority of murders, the people know the people. Yeah people yeah of course so it's not always well who could it be instead yeah and they sing that song it's like guys you gotta just start solving the case yeah and the reason so many murders go unsolved is because people are stuck

singing that song at the crime scene no this is it be now? Da-na-na-na-na. No, this is my least favorite kind. Yeah. Because it's one of these stories where she knows she's in danger. And she tries her best to protect herself. But hell hath no fury like a violent, entitled man. Yeah. That's how the saying goes. That's the saying.

Everybody knows it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So I'm obviously going to include a lot of information that was shared in Dateline, but I'm also relying a lot on great reporting from the Chicago Tribune, most of it by Steve Schmadecki. Schmadecki, you say? S-C-H-M-A-D-E-K-E. You tell me. I like it.

Steve Schmadeek? I don't think. I think it's Schmadecki. Schmadecki. All right. And I'm not going to present this as some big mystery because, again, from what I've read, fucking wasn't. All right. Are we ready?

Jesus. I hate that. I hate that shit so much. When you trust somebody to tell you the story. Put your love and trust into Keith Morrison. And he pulls one of these mystery numbers. It was a total mystery. I mean, she'd already talked to the police and all her friends about the guy, but it was a total mystery.

Who killed Nicole Brown Simpson? We may never know. Anyway, picture it. Chicago, 2007. Naila Franklin was living the dream. First of all, she was a pharmaceutical sales rep. Oh, which means she was super hot. Yeah, that's it.

Okay, that's what I said. We all know what that means. She was outrageously attractive. We've talked about this on the podcast before. Yes. If you are a pharmaceutical sales rep, you are good looking. Yes. No exceptions.

Yeah. And, you know, I know there's got to be a pharmaceutical sales rep who's listening to this right now. And they're like, well, I'm not that attractive. Yes, you are. Yes, you are. Stupid. Yeah. You're stupid for not knowing how attractive you are.

If you're going to feel bad about something, feel bad about how stupid you are. But Nayila wasn't just good looking. She was also successful. By the time she was 28, she owned her own condo in downtown Chicago. And she graduated from the University of Illinois at Urbana with a degree in advertising. But she'd chosen to work at Eli Lilly as a pharmaceutical sales rep because she figured she'd have more control over her life, make better money. And, you know, she was right.

Yeah. Naila had a pretty enviable life. She had a great career, great friends, a gigantic, tight was right. Yeah. Nayla had a pretty enviable life. She had a great career, great friends, a gigantic tight-knit family. I've got my arms spread wide. As wide as they can go. Mm-hmm. They're practically touching behind her back. Which is happening because of yoga.

Because you do so much yoga now. Can you get them closer than that? I am so terrible at yoga. Okay, let me see. Let me see what I can do. You can! Look at you go! 80-year-olds can do what I can do.

I don't think they can. I'm going to go to the senior citizens' home and be the best one there at yoga. Yeah, what if you take a seniors' yoga class? Then wouldn't you feel great? I would feel a lot better about myself. Everyone, I told Brandy that I took a bar class this week and I accidentally

was next to a literally... A ballerina! She was literally a ballerina. That reminds me of the time. That's my favorite. When you went to that trampoline. When I went to Trampersize. Turns out that it was an

advanced class. It was full of cheerleaders. And I pretended I was going to go get a drink. And I left. Okay, so this has been my week of new things. I did that bar class. I did hot yoga. Yeah. Which I thought I was going to die.

Yeah. And I looked like a fucking fool because it turns out I can't balance for shit. Is it worse when you're hot? Well, they make you hold the poses longer in hot yoga. Oh, they do. Mm-hmm. I know nothing about yoga. I've done yoga on the beach once and I found it very relaxing, but it was like yoga for dummies.

Well, I love yoga for dummies. Turns out that's what I've been doing this whole time. relaxing but it was like yoga for dummies well i i love yoga for dummies turns out turns out that's what i've been doing this whole time then i show up for hot yoga and i'm like you would not believe the sweating i did did you leave a trail on your yoga mat brandy okay i'm sorry we will get back to the. But I did not know that they make yoga towels. So you were the only loser that showed up without a towel? Well, not just loser. I mean, sweat was cool.

You need the towel. Yeah, it wasn't just like, oh, she doesn't have the cool thing we all have. It was like I was slipping in a sliding. It's kind of like, you remember like when we were kids? Yeah, the slipping slide. Yeah, because you slide right to the front of the class. And I was like, this is where I was meant to be. What pose do you want me to demonstrate now?

Anyway, it's a mess. In this past week, I have figured out the places to go in the class where you are given the least visibility. And if a ballerina tries to get near me again, I'm going to be like, look, you're very nice, but please go to the front of the room. Get the fuck away. Get away from me. No, what you should do is be like, oh, I wish I wouldn't have have that big lunch full of broccoli earlier today. Just beans and broccoli for lunch.

And then I think you get a lot of space. Yeah, a clearing. Wonderful. Oh my god. No. Oh shit. Never mind. You know what would actually work? What?

Because I... Are you thinking the same thing I'm thinking? Say it. One, two, three. One, two, three. Trump hat. Oh, I was going to... Okay.

I was going to say anti-vaxxer. Oh, we're on the same page. No, see, I think a lot of those white yoga ladies are anti-vaxxers. Yeah, I think there's going to be, like, some. Some. But I think if I showed up in a MAGA hat. You think? Oh, yeah, they'd give me a wide berth.

Okay. A wide berth! You don't think so? I don't know. Okay, here's the deal. Okay. I think if you showed up at a yoga class and say, Johnson County with that hat on, you'd probably have a group of new friends. Oh, gross.

I probably would. This is downtown Kansas City. I don't think that would be the case. Okay, anyway. I pulled into a parking lot yesterday and there was a bumper sticker on the car next to me that said Trump 2020. No more bullshit. It was a big truck, which is obviously on brand. And it was on the driver's side door.

It was right on the door. Wow. You never see that. I know. Trump 2020. No more bullshit. Yeah. the door. Wow. You never see that. I know. Trump 2020. No more bullshit. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Wow. Mm-hmm. So there's that. Anyway, shit, a big family. You know what really... I'm sorry. I'm still stuck on that bumper sticker. He was running for his second term and the bumper sticker said

no more bullshit? I mean, is that like... Alright, we're really getting down to business now! Renewed commitment! No more bullshit! People are gonna love... Sorry about that first term!

People are gonna love that we're talking about Trump again. I know. They're such big fans. That's right. I told you I wasn't going to be a petty patty this episode and so I decided

to do this instead. Good. Brought up Trump instead. Yeah, good. All right. Well, you know, every now and then we got to thin the herd

a little bit. Get that herd immunity going. Is that what they mean by that? No. I don't think so. Anyway, so, you know, Naila's got a big tight-knit family. Wow. How long was that tangent?

37 minutes. Oh, good. Good. You know, if it had been 40, it'd be too much. Too much. Mm-hmm. Brandy, I don't mean to make you feel inadequate here, but Naila was the type of woman who would attend the opening of an art gallery. Oh, fuck.

She's too cool for me. Have you ever been to the art gallery? No! Right? No! I mean, I've been to an art gallery. I don't go often. Yeah, I was going to say, I think I've been to like one art gallery ever.

And it was in sixth grade when we went to the Nelson? No, that's a museum. That doesn't count as a gallery. I've been to museums before. Brandy, it doesn't count if you just go to the gift shop. Whoa, everyone, Dottie's upset. I'm afraid we're going to have to go on another tangent here while I let the people know that Dottie and I are best friends now. Everyone, Dottie has accepted Brandy into her heart.

That's right. She gave me a kiss and let me pet her. Multiple times. The first time I thought it was just like a fluke and she, you know, was confused about where she was. Yeah, so she goes, so you've been to, I mean, I've been to art galleries some. I've been to like, yeah, like one art gallery. Yeah. I can remember.

It was in Florida. I mostly go for the cheeses. Anyway, that's where she was in july of 2007 she was at an art gallery opening and she met this guy andre right and he was a very handsome fit lawyer from milwaukee and he was very charming and after about 12 seconds these two hot young successful people were like we should date and so they did they started seeing each other kind of casually. And even though they lived in different cities, they made it work. Partly because Nayila was glued to her phone.

If you texted Nayila, bam, she'd text you back. You called her, bam, she'd pick up. No matter what. Her sister said that Nayila was the type of person who would get out of the shower to answer the phone. Oh, shit. She might be more extreme than you. Yeah, she definitely is. I mean, you're very

on top of it. Yeah, I'm on top of it. I've been conditioned to be that way because in my family, if you go 12 seconds without responding, it's assumed that you're dead. Okay. Clearly, that's not the assumption in my family

because I am known to just like leave my phone somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not getting out of the shower for shit. Right. No, I'm not getting out of the shower to answer the phone. You know what I have done before? I have gotten out of the shower to change the song.

I've done that as well. What I actually do is I dry my hand off real good on the shower curtain and then just reach for the phone. Yep. Yep. I'm with you. Yep. Okay. So you get the idea.

Naila and Andre were getting serious. They saw Pirates of the Caribbean together, which is a milestone in all great relationships. And they played competitive games of Scrabble together. And they went to a wedding together, which I feel like that's the real marker of this is someone serious. And at some point, she took him to meet her family, which, again, had to be slightly intimidating because Naila's family is huge. And it's one of these families where everyone is good-looking. Not a fug in the bunch, as they say. That's not a thing people say.

That's a thing people say. Not a fug in the bunch. In fact, Naila's family was so big. How big were they? That she had not one, but two sisters named ashley which is the most born in the 80s problem i've ever heard in my life yeah can you believe that yeah that's i mean it's spelled differently right but does that really help that much i was thinking about this because I was like, what are the fucking chances? But then, you know what I remembered?

Okay, when I lived in Mexico, there were like a few other Americans in my class. Like literally, I think there were three other American girls in my class. Two Ashleys. Yeah. It's a very, well, it was a very popular, I don't think it's popular anymore. No. I mean, it got Ashleied out. I mean, like, two Ashleys, a Whitney and a Kristen.

Very 80s. Do you remember a hot boy band guy, Ashley? The homophobic one from O-Town? Was he homophobic? Yes, he was homophobic. I've told you this before. One time, I remember. Ashley Parker Angel is homophobic?

Well, I mean, hopefully he's changed. I mean, my God, it's not really in anymore to be homophobic. But it was for a while in the late 90s. No, I remember, you know, because we all had our magazines that we loved. Yeah. He had a shirt that said straight pride on it. Oh, God. And like a little, you know, like a stick figure of a man and woman holding hands.

Straight pride. Are you fucking kidding me? I fucking hate that. Great. Now I can't like Ashley Parker Angel anymore. Yeah, sorry. You're going to have to stop masturbating to him. I know that's one of your many pastimes.

Does Lance Bass know about your love for this man? Obviously not. Yeah. Uh-huh. Lance, reach out, please. I swear it's a safe space. Isn't it weird that I remember that? Of all the things to remember.

Yes, it is. Well, if you remember that he was from O-Town. Well, and I'm terrible at trivia. That's the thing. For you to remember that, that is very alarming. I was really pissed. Do you remember their hits?

Sing some for me. I don't know if I can get it. So there was All or Nothing. Cause I want it all or nothing at all. No, what? I don't remember. And then there was also You're the Star of My Liquid Dream.

Ew, what? What? And I cannot, like, I've been trying to get the tune of it in my head. I can't get it, but yeah. After the lyrics, You're the Star of it in my head. I can't get it. But yeah, that was the lyrics. You're the star of my liquid dream. Wow.

Gosh. Wouldn't that be so flattering if a man sang that to you? No! Wouldn't you just die? Anyway, so. She's got two sisters named Ashley spelled different. Everybody calm down. Yeah.

Yeah. Nayula's family was very tight knit in this episode of Dateline. One of the Ashleys said that she has never used the term half sibling because it implies that they're something less than siblings. And that's just how they treated one another. Also, I feel the need to tell you that the whole family is outrageously successful. One of Naila's siblings went to Stanford. Another went to Notre Dame. Her dad was a retired biochemist. One of her sisters ran a PR firm. For fuck's sake. Oh, I'm not even done. Another sister is a social worker. Another one's

a nurse. Another sister is Marina Franklin, who is a famous stand-up comedian. She toured with Conan O'Brien. She's been on the Stephen Colbert show, the Larry Wilmore show. She was on the Chappelle show for a little bit. Anyway, you could- Damn! Yeah, a bunch of losers, and I hope one day they get their act together. Back to Nayula and Andre. Nayula took Andre to her niece's birthday party, and Leah, Nayula's sister, was totally charmed. Because Andre showed up at the birthday party with a gift for the baby. Oh, yeah. So he was that kind of guy. Sweet, classy, good dude.

The only alarming thing that anyone could say about Andre comes from a woman named Kristen Caruso. And Kristen Caruso is an eagle-eyed supermodel. And she noticed that in this interview for Dateline, Andre, you know, he's dressed to the nines. Okay, picture it. Looks amazing. Super polished, okay? Then he crosses his legs,

and you see that he's not wearing shoes he had no shoes on? he was in his stocking feet being interviewed by Dateline it was the weirdest thing I've ever seen

where the fuck were his shoes? I don't know here's what I thought you were going to say what? I thought you were going to say

that he was dressed to the nines you know dress pants something like that dress shoes. And then he had like white athletic socks on with them. Which would be weird enough.

Yeah. I would make no. He had no shoes on? He had no shoes on. Okay. I don't like it. And this is super relevant. Obviously.

So please don't forget it. And this is super relevant to the story. Obviously. So please don't forget it. I should also mention he's a wonderful guy. So we should all be really judgy about this. Yes. I have a feeling, though, when he watched this episode of Date Laying Back, he was like, oh, no, I shouldn't have taken my shoes off. Maybe they made him do it. Why would they make him do that? That's what I'm thinking.

Okay. They were going to shoot some B-roll of him walking with Keith Morrison. And he had really squeaky shoes on. And so they were like, okay, let's get a shot of you guys walking. Let's take the shoes off. And then they just immediately went from there to the sit-down interview portion, and he never put his shoes back on. I mean, okay.

I don't think that's it. I really don't. Part of me was like, is he being interviewed in his own home? But it didn't look like his home. It looked like typical date-line stuff, like a hotel or something. Anyway. Anyway. We may, see, this is the true mystery of this fucking episode of Date Line.

There is a mystery here. There is a mystery. But the mystery is what happened to Andre's shoes. That's right. They should call it that. That should be the name of the episode. What happened to Andre's shoes? name of the episode. What happened to Andre's shoes?

So, okay. Nyla and Andre had a good thing going, and thank God they did. Nyla deserved that, especially after what she'd been through with this other guy, Reginald Potts. Reginald Potts! Is that not the dumbest name? Is that Mrs.

Potts' husband? Very good, Brandy. You know, I would like to make fun of you, but I thought of Mrs. Potts so many times. Every time I wrote down the last name Potts. Just Reginald, Mrs. Potts, and Chip. Chip? That's their fucking kid. Oh.

Don't say their fucking kid. Oh. Don't say their fucking kid. Chip is Mrs. Potts' kid. Okay, I'm, you know, I'm more like a normal adult. I don't know all of the tiny Disney. Okay, hold on. Beauty and the Beast was fucking huge when we were kids. Yeah, when we were kids. the Beast was fucking huge when we were kids.

Yeah, when we were kids. In the millions of years since then, I've forgotten some of the minor characters' names. Oh, Chip is a minor character? Oh my god. The fucking cutest little teacup with a chip in him is a minor fucking character? Yes, he is a minor character. No.

Yes. No. He may have stolen your heart, but he did not steal the show, Brandy. He did steal the show, and everybody was rooting for Chip. To do what? He didn't do shit. To become a real boy. Wait, is that Pinocchio? Don't act like you don't know.

Just a grown woman going to kids movies. At least you have a child now. It's a lot less creepy this way. It's the whole reason I had a kid. So Reginald, he was an investor and he drove a white Bentley and he had a kick-ass... What's wrong, Brandy? You know a thing or two about cars? You're a little jealous.

You feel... Yeah. Is that nicer than a Subaru? Yes. Well, it's all subjective, isn't it? And exponentially more expensive. He also had a kick-ass condo in downtown Chicago overlooking the water. Fun fact, he had like 15 pairs of Gucci shoes, but he didn't own a bed frame.

So his mattress was on the floor of his bedroom. Don't like that. He also dined at like the best restaurants, but didn't own pots or pans. Yeah, it's because this guy only fucking cared about his image. Hmm. All right. Didn't take long for you to figure him out. All right.

So Naila and Reginald had met a year earlier and they dated very casually. Reginald was charming and smart, but as Naila eventually found out, he was up to his eyeballs in bullshit. It turned out that he was with a bunch of different women. And in fact, he'd fathered a child with another woman that summer. And in fact, he'd fathered a child with another woman that summer. Naila also discovered that Reginald had a very lengthy criminal record. And that just was not the type of guy she was into at all. She was a successful, very put together woman, and she looked for those same qualities in a partner.

So she dumped Reginald. In a July email, she told him that he was, quote, truly pathological and that he had, quote, completely disrespected her. The subject line of that email? Adios. Hmm. Reginald didn't take it well. He sent her a super nasty email back, and she responded by being like, you're being ridiculous. I'm focused on a new relationship. And you know what? You should probably focus on your daughters and your new baby. Goodbye. Ooh.

Yeah. And because Naila was a girl's girl, she reached out to one of the other women he was seeing and kind of gave her a heads up about what he'd been doing behind her back. And she emailed some of their mutual friends and was like, hey, just a heads up. Here's this guy's criminal history. OK, so I'm not exactly sure what she was able to dig up, but I do know that it later came out that he had been in a gang. He'd been caught stealing high end cars.

He'd been caught dealing drugs. He'd been physically abusive to other women. Again, I'm not sure if that specific part was part of the criminal record. Maybe she found out about all that. Maybe she found out about a little bit. Either way, she called him out on it. Yeah. And Reginald flipped the fuck out. As one person later put it, it was one thing to dump Reginald, but it was another thing to stand up to Reginald. That's the part he couldn't handle. So he began threatening Naila. He sent her threatening emails and left her threatening voicemails, and it really scared her.

At some point, she called the non-emergency police number and inquired about getting an order of protection against him. She was done with him. She wanted to move on with her life safely. But he kept threatening her. In an email in early September of 2007, Nayila wrote to him, you are not going to bully me. You are messing with the wrong woman this time. She told him that she'd already filed a police report and that she'd be seeking an order of protection. Naila knew she was in danger. She played Reginald's angry voicemails for her friends. She warned her building security to look out for him. She told one of her friends,

Wow. security to look out for him, she told one of her friends, if anything happens to me, Reginald Potts did it. Wow. In fact, she told her best friend, Dana McClellan, here are my passwords to my email and my voicemail in case something happens to me. Oh, no. Yeah. This is why I fucking hate this.

Yeah. It's a real mystery who did it, isn't it? I don't think it is. I'm pretty sure it's Reginald Potts. You must be a genius. No relation to Mrs. Potts and Chip. I will not have him sullying their good name. Yeah.

The Potts name. Yes. Obviously she hoped nothing bad would happen. She was really ready to just move forward. She had a lot going on and she and Andre were really hitting it off. In fact, Andre made a habit of calling her every morning. Was he wearing shoes? Who knows? And the morning of Tuesday, September 18th was supposed to be no exception. Andre says that on that morning, he thought he'd called her, but he was interrupted

by something. Seems like he kind of fucked up. So she called him and was like, hey, what happened to my phone call? Yeah. And he was like, oh, I'm sorry. So they talked. I was looking for my shoes, the whole thing. Do I need to wear shoes? She's like, of course you need to wear shoes.

He's like, are you sure? I've got really nice dress socks. Yeah. He did have nice dress socks. Do they have a pattern on? He did have nice dress socks. Yeah. He did have nice dress socks.

Okay. Do they have a pattern on them? I want to say, no, they were like navy with like, you know, you know the navy dress socks that have like the little stripes. Yeah. But not like. Ribbing. Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah. For her pleasure. Okay. So anyway. Do you think it's weird that Angela Lansbury voiced Mrs. Potts and was supposed to have a small child when Angela Lansbury was like 80 years old at that time? No. It's a story about a teapot that has a child. Oh, it's a story about a teapot?

I thought they were background characters. They are. And they're very, you know know Chip is a very minor character but I'm just saying like it's fine if the voice is of an older lady because it's such a ridiculous story

okay continue do you think it's weird that the lesson of Beauty and the Beast is like if a guy's really horrible to you and he locks you in a castle, you should just be really nice to him? You should just try harder. It's not really a movie about Stockholm Syndrome.

Yeah. Yeah. About abusive relationships. Yeah. The problem was really her all along, you know? Yeah. She's the one who needed a change. She needed to love him hard enough for him to become a man.

Also, it's a movie about Chip. Yeah, it really is about Chip. Anyway. So they talked. They emailed a little bit. And later that evening, he called just to check in, and she didn't pick up. So he left a message and that was a little weird because Nayila always answered her phone but pretty soon she sent him a

text saying that she was at dinner and she'd call him later right no and she never did later at around 9 p.m one of the Ashleys called Nayila, and Nayila didn't pick up. And pretty soon, Ashley got a text that said something like, I'm at dinner. I'll call you in a few. But she never did. So now it's September 19th. Nayila still wasn't answering her phone. She had sent a few texts, but wasn't calling anyone back.

And, you know, this was all pretty concerning. Andre didn't want to overreact, but he didn't want to underreact either. So he sent her an email, you know, kind of sort of joking, sort of serious. And in it, he wrote, in all caps, are you alive? She didn't respond. He called her again and emailed her again and called her again. And finally, Naila's sister Leah got a phone call. It was Naila's boss.

And the boss was like, hey, Naila didn't show up for work today. She missed an important meeting. So, you know, at this point, red flags are a-flappin'. Yeah. Because this was not like Nyla at all. By the way, quick side note about Nyla's sister, Leah. Leah is the type of person you want in your life should you happen to go missing. Because Leah took charge of this situation.

She's the one who's a PR executive. She, of course, tried calling Nyla. Nyla didn't pick up. She called Nyla's friends. She called of course, tried calling Naila. Naila didn't pick up. She called Naila's friends. She called all the other siblings. No one had heard from her. So at that point, Leah called the police and filed a missing persons report. Then she went over to Naila's apartment and knocked on the door. No one answered. She used a key to get in. And as soon as Leah walked in, she knew that something was wrong. It looked like Naila had left in a hurry. Her eggs and coffee were just out.

Clearly something was wrong. And since Leah is a PR executive, she put her professional skills to good use. Yeah. She called every single media person she knew and told them about her missing sister. Good for her. Yeah. But Leah was not overly optimistic. She knew that as a black woman, her sister's disappearance wasn't going to generate the kind of media interest

that a white woman's disappearance would. The deck was stacked against her, but Leah had a lot of contacts. And personally, I think it's very relevant that Naila was a super attractive woman. And there were a bunch

of great pictures to choose from. I think it's also relevant that Chicago is a pretty diverse city. So this did get picked up by the media. And Naila's family and friends handled this the way someone with professional media experience would. They gave the media something to cover. They put up flyers everywhere. But three days passed and there was still no sign of Nayila.

Andre was obviously a suspect. He was the boyfriend and he seemed like the type of guy to go on Dateline in his stocking feed, which I think we can all agree is very suspicious. Absolutely. But he was ruled out pretty quickly because it was pretty easy to establish that he'd been in Milwaukee this whole time. And I mean, come on. And also Reginald Potts exists. Yes.

Is it the nice guy who brings a gift to the baby's birthday? Or is it the douche who has been terrifying her and threatening to kill her? Gee, a real mystery. A dateline mystery. Worth noting. I don't know how long it took investigators to zero in on reginald

good lord i hope it wasn't longer than 12 seconds because i'm sure her friends and family were like it's this guy yeah but anyway more on that later so investigators were looking into naela's disappearance and they discovered that a little after 10 p.m. on the night she went missing, Naila had made three phone calls to 911. And of course, all those calls are recorded. Yeah. So they went back and listened to the three calls. And the first one, no one spoke. You could kind of hear some background noise, like maybe some music, but that was it.

They listened to the second call. Again, no one spoke. They listened to the third call. And again, no one spoke. The recordings were disturbing. It was difficult to suss out what they meant exactly, but they tried. And the fruitless search for Nyla continued. Then, at a little after midnight on September 27, 2007, a police officer named Calvin Lucius was out on patrol.

He worked the night shift in Calumet City, which is about 20 miles south of Chicago. Calumet City, or Cal City as I like to call it, has a population of about 40,000 people. And a local point of pride are the city's two water towers, which have happy faces painted on them. That's fucking weird. So I think it's safe to say that the arts and culture in Chicago have obviously had a trickle-down effect. So Officer Lucius was out, you know, doing his thing, patrolling around, when he stopped at a golf course parking lot. He spotted something strange in the parking lot.

Up on the curb were six cardboard boxes. They were stacked neatly on top of one another. In this completely empty parking lot. Yeah, that's fucking weird. Uh-huh. So he walked up to them. He opened one of the boxes up and discovered... Body parts.

Pills. What? Bottles and bottles of pills. Pills. What? Bottles and bottles of pills. Oh, it's her samples. Mm-hmm. So initially, he thought he'd stumbled ass over applesauce into like a drug bust. No, not the case. He looked closer at the drugs and he realized they were all just samples

of different medications. And he examined each of the boxes and saw that they'd been addressed to Nyla Franklin. Okay, I am so glad you had the same reaction as me. I was like, oh my God, oh my God, six boxes. Yeah, I thought her dismembered body was going to be in there. Oh my God, no, no, just pills. Just pills, all right.

It's unclear to me if he recognized at that moment that he'd discovered the property of a missing woman, but it didn't take long to connect the dots. Because pretty soon, everyone descended on Cal City. We're talking FBI, local cops, and that's what I mean by everyone. End of list. What about like some kind of mounted patrol? Anybody on horses?

The faithful mounts were also there. The faithful mounts were there. These boxes had been found in a super secluded area right near a lagoon. So people were all pretty... What? A lagoon? Yeah, a lagoon. There was a lagoon?

Yes, a lagoon. What are you talking about? Not a lagoon. No. I know what a fucking lagoon. What are you talking about? Not a lagoon. No. I know what a fucking lagoon is. Do you? Do you? Because you're acting weird.

I didn't know they had lagoons in Illinois. Oh, well. Hmm. Hmm. I think of a lagoon being more tropical than that. Maybe it's just like a puddle, but they called it a lagoon. Anyway, they dredged the lagoon looking for Nayula's body, but didn't find anything. They scoured the wooded area around the lagoon, and the only thing they found was a strand of pearls hanging in a bush.

And that was it. Investigators took the necklace to Nayula's friends and family, and they were like, I mean, yeah, that looks like it could be hers. So by this point, investigators had reached out to Reginald, and they were like, hey, we want to talk to you. Super cash. And he was like, sure, like, hey, we want to talk to you. Super cash. And he was like, sure, because, you know, he had nothing to hide. Meanwhile, there was still a fair amount of media coverage

around Nayila's disappearance. And a woman from Hammond, Indiana, which is right by Cal City, who'd been following the news, noticed a black Chevy Impala that had been parked on her block for a couple days. It was in front of an abandoned house. Oh, no.

And so this woman thought, you know what? Okay, I'll call it in. It couldn't hurt. And sure enough, it was Nayela's car. Investigators went to the scene. They opened the car up. They popped the trunk. And it was clean. Completely clean. No

fingerprints, no blood, no nothing. By this point, Nayula's family was beside themselves. Her sister Ashley went to that abandoned house and banged on the door, screaming Nayula's name. Ashley didn't want to leave the area because you know it was kind of the only place that they could really tie to her sister and she had to be taken away from the scene. Meanwhile investigators talked to neighbors and a few people said that they did see a man kind of hanging out around the car before he got into another vehicle. Are you ready for a description of that man? Yes.

A thin black man, which describes a lot of people on this earth. Yeah. But it does also describe Reginald Potts. Okay. Okay, so we're going to take that little tidbit there. By this point, Reginald had already agreed to come sit down and talk with detectives, and that's exactly what he did. He told them he'd met Naila about a year ago, they dated for a little while, and the relationship

ended. No big deal. Investigators asked him where he'd been on the night that Naila went missing, and long story short, Reginald had been, like, everywhere. He'd gone to bars. He'd gone shopping with some friends at Target. Then later that night, he got together with a girlfriend, and then another girlfriend, and then another girlfriend,

which sounds exhausting but also sounds like a pretty good alibi. Mm-hmm. There's a very cringy part of this Dateline episode where Keith Morrison hears all this and he says, this guy gets around. Oh. And one of the male detectives goes, if you've got a Bentley, your options are open.

And there's like a woman sergeant who's just like sitting there kind of grimacing. Yeah. Ugh. Ugh. A real pussy wagon, am I right? Brandy, I hope you haven't forgotten about Officer Calvin Lucius, who worked the night shift in Calumet City.

I have not. He was the one who found the boxes. Yeah, and I'm in love with him. I'm pretty sure he wasn't even technically on this case, but evidently he felt pretty close to it since he'd been the one to discover those boxes. So as the days passed, he continued to do his thing, just going to empty parking lots, patrolling the town. And one time while he and his partner were out patrolling, his partner discovered a pair

of earbuds dangling from a tree. And remember, this is 2007, so there's the wires still attached. Okay. Okay. Well, why are they dangling from a tree. And remember, this is 2007, so the wire is still attached. Okay, okay. Well, why are they dangling from a tree? They found the necklace dangling from a tree. They sure did. Okay. I have a theory.

Okay. I think you're just throwing shit. Throwing shit. Yeah. That makes total sense. Yeah. It's a lot less creepy when you think about it that way. But they're, you know, like ornaments.

I know. No. Mm-mm. So he gets a little closer. They were about a mile from where Calvin had spotted the boxes. And keep in mind, it's still dark out. But they were behind an abandoned video store called Video Max. Oh, I thought you were going to say Blockbuster.

Have you ever heard of a store called Blockbuster? They walked closer to the earbuds, and that's when Calvin discovered a woman's naked, badly decomposing body. No. It was Nyela Franklin. An autopsy was performed, and it seems like it took quite a while to determine the cause of death. Oh, the advanced stage of decomposition.

Exactly. It was eventually deemed to be asphyxiation. And this is just a coincidence, so please don't read anything into this, okay? The video rental store where Nyela's body was found happened to be owned by Reginald Pott's brother-in-law. It's a small world, after all. Oh. And I think you'll be heartened to learn that Reginald was very concerned with how the investigation was going. So he kept in contact with it.

Just inserting himself into the investigation? Just checking. Just being a good guy. Being a concerned citizen. Checking in on the murder investigation of the woman he threatened to murder. What do you guys know? Do you guys have any suspects? You heard anything about this? What's going on? Where are you guys looking? I'm just casual.

Funny thing though. The investigators were also interested in him as well. So they checked on him too. He'd given such a thorough alibi. He'd mentioned shopping at Target. And you know, the funny thing about Target is it makes for an excellent alibi. Because if you shop at Target, you are on video all the time.

They'll catch you from every angle. Yeah. Yeah, you've covered a story about it. I fucking know. Tell me something I don't fucking know. Sentinel has nothing to do with Florida. Fuck off. Reginald had told the investigators that he'd gone shopping that evening with his friends, the Eccles.

Yeah, just three friends hanging at Target. That's super fucking weird. What, you never shop at Target with some buddies? As a grown-ass man, probably not. All right. Well, don't judge him just because he's doing something you wouldn't do. He went with the Eccles? The Eccles. So he's there with a couple?

It's a couple and him? Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really fucking weird. Okay, well, you know what else is weird? The surveillance footage only showed the Eccles. He was like, no, no, no, I swear I'm there. Yeah, I'm just hiding behind a bush. It's a fun game we play.

Me and the Eccles. Yeah, so the Eccles were on the surveillance footage clear as day. In fact, I think they looked like they were about to go to a Sears family photo shoot because he was in a yellow tank top and she was in a matching yellow sundress. But there was no Reginald anywhere.

Did they look real close? Did they look like real close? Yeah, and here's the deal. Either he was invisible that day or hold up. Here's my other theory. He was up to his eyeballs in bullshit. Those are the two possibilities that I see. OK.

You are a cloak of invisibility. So investigators called in Reginald friends, and the dude was like, okay. Yeah, he wasn't with us at Target that night. In fact, I did hang out with him that night, but it was mostly when I drove out to Hammond, Indiana to pick him up. From an abandoned video store. Don't worry about it. No big deal. Nothing to see here.

So, yeah, on December 6th. No, from an abandoned house where he ditched a car. Come on, Reggie. Can I call him Reggie? The thing is, like, why wouldn't you go by Reggie? Because Reginald sounds... Like you've got to stick up your ass. That's how Reginald sounds.

No, Reginald sounds like you drive a fucking Bentley. Okay. All right. All right. So on December 6, 2007, Reginald Potts was arrested for Nyula's murder. And they took him into a rough-looking interrogation room. Like, shockingly rough, okay? They needed to hire someone to maybe do some drywall repair. Like, shockingly rough, okay? They needed to hire someone to maybe

do some drywall repair, throw a coat of paint on the walls, run a mop over the floor, bring in some actual furniture. They didn't even have a desk in there. What, just folding chairs? I saw an office wheelie chair. I don't know what they had Reginald in,

but I digress. They had him in a corner, seated, and one detective stood against the wall on one side of him, and the other did the Zack Morris locker lean on the wall on the other side of him. And Reginald, he was cool as a cucumber on a cold Chicago day. That's not a phrase people say. It is now. He said, I am adamantly denying that I was ever there, period.

Oh, shit. Adamantly? Right from the get-go? Mm-hmm. Okay, well, I don't believe you, Reggie. What about confidence? No. How are you going to deny a confident man?

I will deny him because I have too many coincidences. Reginald did very well under interrogation and it kills me to give this guy a compliment but the fact is I just I was watching this and I was like damn. I mean if I didn't know all the other stuff I'd be like

well we better let him go. He straight up told the cops I know you're lying. He said, I wasn't in her apartment on the 18th. I wasn't even in her apartment building. He was so confident and convincing. But then one of the detectives goes, somebody saw your distinctive Bentley in her fucking parking garage or building on Sunday. That's it.

And Reginald said, hey, hey, listen for a minute. And I could tell you for sure, that's a lie. You know what? What? This guy has become an excellent liar because he dates multiple women at the same time. So he's been accused many times of fucking around. And he's like a master gaslighter. He's an amazing liar.

Yes. Obviously, we've watched a ton of interrogation stuff for this podcast. Yeah. This guy would fool me every time. You know how every now and then you watch these shows and you're like, how did women fall for this? I totally understand how women fell for this guy. Yeah. So, but again, I mean, you're going to commit a crime and you drive a white Bentley?

Yeah. That's just dumb as shit. That is dumb. Yeah, that is a car that sticks out. Mm-hmm. You couldn't borrow somebody's POS for the night? No. He couldn't be seen driving around in that.

So, you know, he's saying that's a lie, but it wasn't a lie. Someone had seen his white Bentley, and security footage showed Naila and Reginald getting off of the elevator together. So one of the detectives said to him, Reginald, do you understand about videotapes? There's cameras everywhere. Have you heard of a videotape? New technology. It's called videotapes. But Reginald was adamant he had not been in that apartment building,

and if they had tapes of him, then they had been, quote, very creative with Photoshop. I know. I know. Kills me. Reggie. At one point, one of the detectives goes, we can put you. And Reginald goes, let me hear the fabrication.

Oh, my God. He's so good. Fuck this guy the fabrication. Oh, my God. He's so good. Fuck this guy, right? Oh, you just. It's terrifying. Aside from the murder thing, obviously, like that's in its own separate category. That makes me feel terrible for every woman he's ever dated. Yeah.

Yeah. Absolutely. This is how good he dated. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. This is how good he is. Yeah. Lying about a murder where he clearly has been caught. Fuck. Finally, detectives asked him to get in a lineup. And he refused.

He said, if there's no lawyer here that can bear witness to what is going on, who's speaking to whom in the lineup room, person who's viewing it, I definitely do not feel comfortable with that. And a detective goes, there's a lawyer here, the state's attorney here for Cook County. And Reginald goes, the state's attorney is representing the people representing the case. I would not feel comfortable at all. At all. At all. Which, again... It's a good argument. Yeah.

Yeah. And, come on, this detective. I mean, I'm sure that would work on some people. Be like, oh, you want a lawyer here? There is a lawyer here. Yeah, that guy's a lawyer. That's shitty. That is shitty.

Uh-huh. But, I mean, he didn't fall for it. Yeah. At this point, Reginald must have asked for an attorney because one came in, and I'm going to need you to picture this. Okay. Reginald is in the interrogation room. In walk two detectives plus the attorney. The two detectives and the attorney are like a set of triplets.

They've got on their little dress pants, their button-up shirts, their ties. Okay. As soon as they walk in, Reginald starts stripping. He starts stripping. And one of the detectives goes, why are you taking your clothes

off? Yeah! And Reginald goes, because I am. What? Yeah, I mean, he says this like they're the crazy ones. I mean, it is nuts. You would because I am. What? Yeah, I mean, he says this like they're the crazy ones. I mean, it is nuts. You would not believe it. What? So yeah, detective goes, why are you taking your clothes off?

Reginald goes, because I am. And the detective goes, what's that? And Reginald goes, because I am. And the detective goes, okay, your attorney's right here. We want to take you for a lineup right now. Will you step into the other room? And Reginald goes, no, sir. No, I'm fucking naked.

I'm not stepping anywhere. So Reginald just stripped down and refused to get into the lineup. What? Keith Morrison. If all else fails, take your fucking clothes off? Yes, for real. Keith Morrison called that an interesting tactic and I couldn't agree more.

So there was no lineup day because apparently, I mean getting naked can get you out of things you don't want to do. Life hack. Wow. But they charged him with capital murder anyway, because come on. Yeah. Okay.

Are you ready to get really frustrated? Alright. This was a fairly straightforward case. And typically, when someone is on trial for murder, they wait for about two years to go to trial. And since the death penalty was on the table, Reginald likely would have been on the longer end of that waiting period.

Right. But, just my personal opinion, Reginald is a lot of awful things. Stupid isn't one of them. Mm-hmm. So he figured out how to delay his trial for eight years. The fuck? He hired hired attorneys he fired them then at one point he tried to act as his own attorney and sometimes when he didn't feel like it he just refused to come into court which i don't understand at all but i wonder if he pulled some shit like he did with the lineup

of just like just close i'm doing whatever it By the way, if you're wondering whose fault it was that the trial got delayed so much, Reginald has an answer. It was the prosecution's fault. So, yeah. Okay. This was torture for Nayila's family. Four years into these delays, Nayila's father died. And around that point, Illinois abolished the death penalty. So clearly, Reginald's stall tactics had worked in his favor because now he couldn't go on death row.

Meanwhile, Reginald and his family talked to reporters about how he wasn't involved in Nayila's death at all. There'd been a rush to judgment. He was innocent. Do not make that face. He was totally innocent. Bullshit. So it was really interesting to get Naila's sister Leah's take on this because she was so torn. I mean, she correctly said that, you know, most often poor people or people of color

do not get a fair and just trial in this country. They don't get proper representation, don't get a fair shake. But she was like, that wasn't the case here. This was something totally different. So finally, eight years after Naila was murdered, Reginald's trial began on October 28, 2015. In opening statements, Assistant State's Attorney Fabio Valentini told the jury that Reginald had murdered Nayela because she had stood up to him. He said she called him out. Women don't stand up to Mr. Potts. Women who confront Reginald Potts take a beating. He said this was a pattern for Reginald.

He tried to strangle slash choke his wife. He'd also done the same to the mother of one of his children. The prosecution's theory was that Reginald had been stalking Naila for a couple days and he snuck into Naila's building, led her, terrified, down to the parking lot, strangled her, put her body in the trunk of her car, and drove her out to dump her body. The prosecution talked about how Naila and Reginald's cell phones pinged off the exact same cell towers the entire day after she disappeared. Cell phones go ping, towers go pong.

We know your location all day long. That's the rhyme. That's the phrase. The prosecution also alleged that Reginald had tried to trick Naila's friends and coworkers into thinking she was still alive by sending them texts from her phone and making a dinner reservation under her name. Yeah. Then the defense presented their opening arguments. Defense attorney Michael Morrissey pointed out that initially the medical examiner couldn't determine how Naila died.

Yeah. Because she was badly decomposed. I mean, okay. Maybe she hadn't died from asphyxiation. There were some very fragile bones in her neck that had not been broken. Michael told the jury, This case is riddled with doubt. You'll see lots of exhibits, but no real evidence.

Some very impressive PowerPoints, but no proof. Oh. I know. That's good. That's pretty damn good. That is good. And, I mean, it was a good point. There was no physical evidence linking, I think I said Evans.

I don't think you did. There wasn't Evans or evidence. I thought you said evidence. All right. Well, there wasn't any of it. Yeah. Linking Reginald to Nayela's murder. Just a truckload of common sense. Yeah. You know cares about that yeah the defense's theory was that nayela

had been killed after she went out to dinner in calumet city which why the fuck would you drive all that i mean yeah anyway and that the investigators had gotten tunnel vision when they zeroed in on Reginald. And there's just like a coincidence that like. He wanted her dead. He wanted her dead. And coincidence that someone picked him up from the city where the car was found. Coincidence that her body was found by the abandoned video store that he had a connection to.

That's a lot of coincidences. It sure is. Talk about an unlucky guy. Also very unlucky that, like, those target security cameras somehow... Didn't catch him at all. Yeah. Oh, man, too bad. He shouldn't have worn his cloak of invisibility that day.

In retrospect, it was a bad idea. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When it came time for the prosecution to present their case... Everybody loves a good Harry Potter cosplay. And it comes back to this. You know, I was like, how many times is she going to reference the cloak of invisibility without explicitly saying Harry Potter?

And I was kind of proud of you. I was like, man, she's really doing it. Look at her go. Look at her. She might make it through this whole damn thing. Nope. Nope. Couldn't do it.

All right. Well, good for you, Brandy. When it came time for the prosecution to present their case, they had the video of Reginald and Naila leaving her apartment elevator. They had video proof from Target that his alibi had been a lie. They had Nayila's friends and family who'd been told about the threats that Reginald made against her. Yes, he's super fucking guilty. Would you hold on a second? They also had an expert talk about how phones go ping, cell towers go pong.

We know where you're located all the day long, you know. And that's exactly what that expert said on the stand. Reginald's friend, who had originally said, oh, yes, he was at Target with me that night, testified for the prosecution. That's how Mr. Eccles sounds? Oh, my, yes. Oh, my. Yes, I do recall that we ventured to Target on that fine evening. Why, you'll see me there in my yellow tank top.

It was a summer day. The missus and I were preparing for our Sears family photo shoot. He was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I knew I was lying for him, but I didn't know I was lying to help him cover up a murder. Yikes. Nayila's best friend, Dana McClellan, also testified, and she talked specifically about the voicemail that Reginald left Nayila, in which he said, I could erase you and I could have someone come get you now. By the way, they couldn't play that voicemail for the jury because someone had deleted it off of Nayila's phone. I can't imagine who. I think it starts with an R and ends with an Edgenold.

Seems like you've got the same tunnel vision that everyone else does about this case. They did play other voicemails, including one where Reginald said, they did play other voicemails including one where reginald said i'm wealthy i'm very wealthy i'll always have women around me you don't deserve what i've got which barf yeah i will say i don't think that really applies to the case at all but it does make him she doesn a super douchey douche. Yeah, I mean, also, I'm wealthy, I'm very wealthy, but I don't have a bed frame. Come on. I'm so wealthy I couldn't be bothered.

Yes! I've got 15 pairs of Gucci shoes, but I can't take myself to Ikea and get a bed frame. of Gucci shoes, but I can't take myself to Ikea and get a bed frame. Naila's neighbors also testified that they'd seen Reginald lurking around the building. One guy said that he saw Reginald in the parking garage the day before Naila went missing, and a woman said she saw him in the condo building on the day Naila went missing. A security officer was like, yeah, I saw him hanging out at the bottom of the stairwell. What? Sorry. What?

Sorry. What? There was kind of a weird story. I didn't fully understand. I didn't feel like we got enough details. But it almost sounded like they had called the cops on him. And he'd been like, oh, I'm a resident of the building and my name's Johnson or something. I mean, the guy was full of shit. Yeah, he was an excellent liar.

and my name's Johnson or something. I mean, the guy was full of shit. Yeah, he was an excellent liar. Anyway, when it came time for the defense to take over, they called up a guy named Aaron Allen, who said he'd been friends with Reginald since high school. And he was like, oh, hello, I'm here to provide an alibi for my friend. And he said that on the day Naila went missing, he and Reginald did some errands together.

They went to a Bentley mechanic, and then he dropped off Reginald at a relative's house in Hammond, Indiana. So that explains what he was doing in Hammond. Duh! Are we done here? I think, you know, trial adjourned. So on cross-examination, the prosecution was like,

wow, that is incredible that you're coming forward eight years after the murder with this totally new story. So Assistant State's Attorney Fabio Valentini said, in all these conversations with his sister and his family and him for the last eight years, it never came up, this incredible coincidence that you drove him down to Hammond, Indiana, and dropped him off two blocks from where her car was found?

And Aaron said, it was insignificant information to me. Okay. All right. All right. I mean, overall, so the one thing that I had trouble with was I was going through, you know, newspapers.com trying to find articles from every day of the trial. I had trouble with was I was going through, you know, newspapers.com trying to find articles from every day of the trial. I didn't find much on the defense besides that amazing, hilarious alibi. But also, you know, they talked about how there were some major questions that hadn't been answered.

Like, when did Nyela die? Where did she die? And how did she die? Yeah. Also, no physical evidence linking Reginald to nyla's murder yeah but way too many fucking coincidences common sense common sense says he murdered her yeah you don't need to know all the other stuff yeah agreed gaf g Guilty as fuck. Oh. It's like, what?

Huh? It's an official court ruling. Yeah. The defense also argued that the prosecution hadn't done a good job establishing Nyla's cause of death. They said that, what? Yeah, I mean, well, that's all they can do. Like, the medical examiner, you know, took a while. I don't fucking care. Everybody, Brandy's acting like I killed somebody.

You just calm down. They also said the stuff about cell phones going ping and cell towers going pong isn't quite as exact as the prosecution would have them believe, which I've actually heard that before, is that it's not quite as exact as they want you to think. Anyway, ultimately, the jury deliberated for two hours and 15 minutes and they found him guilty of first degree murder. GAF? GAF. Well, get ready for it. Because here it comes.

Four months later came a five day sentencing and it was a doozy. OK, so this sentencing hearing, I mean, it's really something. First off, Reginald showed up in his little jail scrubs, and he was like, Your Honor, this is a media circus. I don't care for it. I don't want to be videotaped, and I don't want my family to be photographed. Therefore, I refuse to participate in this hearing. You don't get to do that.

Well, no, the judge was like, OK, I mean, that's fine. But, you know, if you're not here, you won't be able to advise your attorneys. Like, don't be a dumbass. And Reginald was like, oh. So then he changed into a suit and sat down in front of the cameras. He tries to control everything. The prosecution called 35 witnesses to establish that Reginald was essentially a con man with a long history of violence against women, specifically strangling women. Some of this testimony had been deemed too prejudicial to share at trial.

But, you know, this was the sentencing phase. It was a whole new ballgame. Yeah, all that gets to come in. Multiple witnesses were like, yep, he said he'd kill me and kill my whole family. And Assistant State's Attorney Maria McCarthy told the court, he lies as easily as he breathes. If he tells you what time it is, look at your watch. That's good. I know. I love that. Cook County Jail Sheriff Terry Williams, who spells his name with an A, T-A-R-R-Y. Never heard that before.

Neither have I. We'll allow it. Said that Reginald had committed more than 200 violations while he'd been in custody and that he'd set a fire. What? Do you think his name's Terrence and he goes by Terry? Oh, that would make sense. Okay, I like that.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. That would make sense. Okay, I like that. Yeah. Yeah.

All right. All right. He said that he'd set fire to his cell at one point and sabotaged plumbing, which was at a Mondo Duke. Was it, you know, flushing stuff that shouldn't be flushed? Who knows? Anyway, he sounds like... I had, until you said flushing stuff that shouldn't be flushed, I had no idea what the words a Mondo Duke meant.

I was like, is that somebody's name? no idea what the words Amando Duke meant. I was like, is that somebody's name? Amando Duke came forward and was like, he was with me. We also went to Target.

It was a different Target, though. And we both wore our invisibility on. We both had invisibility on. He also said that Reginald was in his top ten list of the worst inmates he'd ever had in his entire career. The prosecution also delved into Reginald's criminal history. And, okay, I thought this was kind of interesting. In 1996, get this, he stole a $92,000 Mercedes. Uh-huh. And in actuality, he stole it twice because it got impounded and he went to the impound lot and posed as a courier. And while the person who was working for the impound lot looked for some paperwork, Reginald just drove off in the Mercedes.

Holy shit. Was it a G-Class? I don't even know what that means, which says a lot about me and my cars. I'm thinking $92,000 Mercedes is probably a G-Class? I don't even know what that means, which says a lot about me and my cars. I'm thinking a $92,000 Mercedes is probably a G-Class. Okay. What's the best class? I like that. So the G-Class is the big boxy SUV that the Kardashians drive.

You've seen it. I have seen it. I keep up. By the way, that Bentley he owned? Yeah. He didn't own it. Okay. First off, that's a $225,000 car.

Yes! Which you know I did not. I was like, oh! Turns out he had talked a friend into buying it for him, and then he just stopped making payments on it. What? This is what a smooth talker this guy is. Doubling down on my previous statement, I feel terrible for any woman who has ever dated this man. Yeah.

Aside from the murder. Yeah. Yeah. He has traumatized like everyone he's come into contact with. At sentencing, Naila's family also shared some victim impact statements. Her mom, Maria Maynor, talked about how devastating it was to lose her daughter and not have anything to hold on to. She said, not only was she gone, but there was no body for me to view. Nothing was left for me to kiss or hold on to.

Naila had the most beautiful hair, a lot of it. I asked the funeral director if I could have a lock of her hair. She said there was no hair when they received the remains. There was nothing. Nayila's family also talked about how they felt that Nayila's father had died early, in part because he was so heartbroken over her murder absolutely yeah okay then all right here we go then Reginald spoke for 40 minutes fuck this guy you know what I love a lot of Nayla's family just left yeah yeah this douchebag spoke for 40 minutes. Dateline said that he spoke through tears.

The clip I watched, I saw some tear theater. I didn't see actual tears. Anyway, I'm going to read you a little bit. He said, The jury of my peers came back with a verdict that I believe is false. And I believe it is invalid, and I believe that a court of appeals will overturn it. But for now, this court has to honor what they said and impose a sentence. But I tell you, Your Honor, I am not the person that Ms. McCarthy has tried to paint me in this courtroom.

I am not a monster. I am not a monster. Okay. Cool. Again, I'm telling you, if I just saw this clip, this clip i'd be like well there's an innocent man he he was very convincing his bullshit would work on me all day long yeah but judge thomas gainer who'd i think he'd been with this thing from the start he didn didn't buy it. So he went on an alliterative rant. He said, you're a cold, calculating, conniving coward of a con man. Oh, I love it. And he handed down the

maximum sentence, life without the possibility of parole. And then he said, take him away. I loved it. Love it. And that's how so many years after Nayila's murder, her family was able to get justice. After the verdict was announced, Cook County State's Attorney Anita Alvarez said, the defendant stole Nayila Franklin's vibrant life and then went on to torture her loved ones and exploit our criminal justice system. loved ones and exploit our criminal justice system. After this extremely long and excruciating process, we are hopeful that this sentence will provide some measure of solace and justice for Naila's family and friends. And that's the story of the murder of Naila Franklin. Oh my gosh.

Horrible. Yeah. Fuck that guy. Fuck that guy all day long. Yeah. Fuck that guy. Fuck that guy all day long. Yeah. But it was such a mystery, right? It was not a mystery. It was never a mystery.

I always wonder if it's weird for, like, investigators when they're interviewed on Dateline for that stuff, where they have, like, do you have to pretend, like, oh, yeah, we really didn't know who it could be. Yeah, I would imagine that they're fed, like, some lines that they have to. Yeah, there was always a chance that it was Shoeless Andre. Yeah. Sorry, I forgot about Andre. I was like, is Shoeless Andre a bad guy? Is he who we blame for all the unsolved crimes?

Shoeless Andre. Shoeless Andre strikes again! Uh-huh. Yet another crime scene with no shoe prints. You know what we should do now? Take some questions from our Discord? That's exactly what we should do.

Ooh! Sean wants to know, You know what we should do now? Take some questions from our Discord. That's exactly what we should do. Ooh. Sean wants to know, Brandy, do you plan on changing your surname when you get married? If so, can you give us a preview of the new intro? Oh. I absolutely plan to change my name. Yeah. I will be Brandy Pond. That's so weird.

I know, right? Okay. Yeah, you gotta tell them. Yeah, it's so weird because my maiden name is Pounds. My married name will be two letters

different than my maiden name. It's super fucking weird. Yeah, I mean, there's no other way to say it. That's just weird. It's weird. Uh-huh. Yeah. Allhuh. Yeah.

All right. Yeah. Oh, this is cool. Honka69420 says, funny story. I worked at the production company that made The Whitmans, which is the documentary from my episode that came out this week. And she said, and I'm from PA. It was very funny hearing Brandy's commentary on the show.

I don't think this counts as a question, but I love the accidental Pennsylvania theme this week. Did we even notice that we did an accidental Pennsylvania theme? You know what? I realized it when I was writing up the web copy. I was like, oh, damn it. We missed an opportunity to talk about our theme. I think that's so cool that you worked for the production company. I liked the documentary.

Okay. Sex Demon Sea Witch wants to know, what is the one food you have zero willpower over? Like you've inhaled it all before you even notice. Okay. Well, I have a lot of foods like this. The one that comes to mind, I don't know what came over me, but this past weekend I was just like, you know what? I want some junk food in this house. So I went to the store. I got some chips, you know. And I had been craving Pop-Tarts. Oh, yeah. Like something fierce.

I don't know what the deal was. Yeah. In one day, I ate six Pop-Tarts. What flavor? Okay. Well, it's kind of a variety. So, you know, I love unfrosted strawberry. I know you do.

You're a weirdo. Norman thinks it's so weird. Yeah. So I got that for me, and then I got for him cherry with frosting on it. Well, I ate through all mine, and then I started eating his. I felt a lot of shame that day. What about you? Is there, like, a food that once you pop, you can't stop?

Puffy Cheetos. Oh, me too. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. They're so good. They kind of dissolve in your mouth. They just dissolve exactly.

So are you really even eating them? Yeah. Do they even count? Junk Science says, Kristen, I don't have a question. Just wanted to say that my neighbor just asked my husband if he had any experience tapping, and I had to physically stop myself from blurting out that ass. Don't you wish, like, sometimes you could say that stuff and just see, like, how would this person react? They'd probably be horrified, but still.

Oh, a bunch of people have asked this, so we better address this. Okay. Ash in the Awe says, in the last episode, you said that all three of you got pie. Kristen got lemon meringue. Brandy got coconut. What did Norm get? Chocolate peanut butter. That's correct.

And he was thrilled. He sure was. He was kind of doing that thing he does sometimes where we're like, we offer him a bite of ours and he takes us up on it. And then he just sits there and continues eating his pie. Yeah. And we have to be like, hey, Norm, could we have a bite of yours? Did you want to offer a bite of yours? High Priestess of Costco wants to know, what are your favorite fall baked goods slash snacks?

I am having a hankering. I just looked up a recipe. Okay. I want to make ginger snaps. You know what's weird? I've never made ginger snaps. I've never made them either. I looked up recipes, super simple, and I was like, oh, I have all this stuff, except it needs fucking molasses

and I don't have molasses. Oh my God, let me give you molasses. Have you? Do you have molasses? The only reason I have molasses. Oh my God. Let me give you molasses. Have you? Do you have molasses? The only reason I have molasses is because my parents lived with us for a while. Yeah. And while they were here, you know, they brought over all this stuff. Yeah.

And like, Norman gets weirdly stressed out about the number of condiments we have. Oh yeah. It's a weird thing for him. Yeah. And we've got a almost full thing of molasses. And it's like, I don't think I've ever used molasses in my life.

I've never used molasses either, but I want to make ginger snaps. Well, look under your chair. Zephyr Gray wants to know, what is the craziest thing your partners have done while you were doing something important, i.e. on an important phone call? Okay, the thing that's coming to mind, and it's not something that Norm did to me. It's something that we did to him one time. Wasn't he, like, in class?

Yep. And, yeah, I came downstairs. What did I ask him? I can't even remember. It was about, like, if Beyonce wanted to have sex with me, would he get, like, and I did it, would he get mad? Which is an urgent question. It was an urgent question, and, yes, and I did it, would he get mad? Which is an urgent question. It was an urgent question. And yes, he was in class.

And he was weirdly upset about the whole thing. Haven Monaghan wants to know, how do you eat your cereal? Do you pour small amounts of milk and cereal to avoid it getting soggy? Or do you pour one large bowl? I do one large bowl. I do, too. It never even occurred to me. Do you have just like little bits at a time?

You know what? Part of it is I just don't do the soggy cereal much. The only cereal. Okay. I love Life cereal. Yeah, I do, too. But that gets soggy so fast. Cinnamon Life is my favorite cereal. But you can only eat like a small amount because you have to eat it super fast because it just, I mean, just sucks.

I've never even considered doing like the other things because I don't like carry the stuff to the table with me. So it's really, I think it comes down to lacing. I think it does too. Okay. Lays, ruffles, and cottage cheese. Wants to know, Kristen, are you dressing the dogs up for Halloween? I don't believe so.

I'm now going to turn this into a question. It's a question for me. Because I think I talked about it on the podcast that I was going to dress London up. Have I talked about it or have I? I don't know. Okay. I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast that I was going to dress London up. Have I talked about it or have I? I don't know. Okay. I don't know if I've talked about it on the podcast, but I had these big plans to dress

London up as a pink flamingo. I found the cutest pink flamingo costume. Oh, yeah. Well, it fucking sold out. So then I, last night, was like, well, I got to fucking decide what she's going to be now because everything's going to sell out. So now she's being a skunk. Oh, that would be so cute.

I know. I think she'll look really cute. Aw. I'm sorry about the flamingo. I know. I was pretty disappointed. Seriously. Last night, I was like, to David, I was like, do you want to hear some terrible news?

And he was like, oh, my gosh, what? You asshole. And I was like, the pink flamingo costume sold out. And he's like, oh my gosh, what? You asshole. And I was like, the pink flamingo costume sold out. And he's like, oh my god, okay. Did he burst into tears right that moment or did he wait until later? As you were drifting off to sleep, did the bed shake from him crying? Anna She Her wants to know thoughts on capybaras what?

I have strong thoughts on them and my thoughts are that they are just giant gerbils so aren't they just the rodents of unusual size that the princess bride taught us all about Kristen you're so Kristen has no idea what the fuck I'm talking about

I don't know what that thing is I did see the princess bride one time there we go moose inside moose outside

asks favorite type of oddly satisfying videos to watch carpet cleaning painting etc we just talked about this Norm and I have a very specific one that we love Favorite type of oddly satisfying videos to watch? Carpet cleaning, painting, et cetera. We just talked about this. We did.

Norm and I have a very specific one that we love. So Norm and I both love watching kitchen organization videos. Specifically, like, moms who are restocking their refrigerators and pantries, and they have, like, a very organized system with those clear plastic containers and they're like putting all the applesauces in and then like they're putting the Capri suns all in the love it. They're pouring rice into a container. Fucking love it.

I got so annoyed with Norm the other day about this. Why? I love it. I got so annoyed with Norm the other day about this. Why? Because, like, the past two weekends, I've done some kitchen organization stuff. And both times he's come in and been like, oh, I guess I'll come in here later. Or something.

Because, like, stuff is everywhere. And then I find out, for fun, he's sitting in the other room watching a woman organize a kitchen. Yep. Like, dude, why don't you just come in here and watch this? Yep. Amazing things happening in this kitchen. Well, should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? Absolutely we should.

I don't even have the document open. I don't either. Wow. We are killing it today. Oh, my God. I'm already there. How? I'm like the Lone Star song. Baby.

I'm already there. Oh. Take a look around. I really. On the whisper in the wind. This is a new Christmas shoes. I'm your imaginary friend. Oh, God.

That's terrible. That'm your imaginary friend. Oh, God. That's terrible. That's a terrible song. I thought he only did Amazed and then he was asked to stop. I'm pretty sure that's a Lone Star song. Now I gotta look it up. Yeah, uh-huh. Yeah, it is in fact a Lone Star song.

All right, I'm gonna just glide on by that and tell you that we are reading your names and favorite cookies. Jen Knight. Oreos covered in peanut butter and dunked in milk. What are the peanut butter and the milk? I don't know, Jen Knight. I thought for a second you were saying Jen Knight. Like Forrest Gump.

I don't know. Janae. Brittany Jordan. Homemade chocolate chip cookies. Julie Burgaker. White chocolate macadamia nut. Lucy Kennedy. Chocolate chip cookies with walnuts.

Maureen Carlson. White chocolate chip macadamia nut. Taylor B. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Zoe Vays. My mom's chocolate chip cookies when made with love. One time she made them while in a bad mood and they were not the same. She said, I didn't put the love in this time and walked away.

Samantha H. Peanut butter chocolate chip. Samantha H. Peanut butter chocolate chip. Rachel K. Snickerdoodle. KCP. White chocolate macadamia. Jessica L. Soft chocolate chip macadamia.

Christina M. Oatmeal raisin. Miss Gin Marijuana. Wait, I don't see a... There's no cookie. Oh, no. Oh, wait, no. Maybe Marijuana is the cookie.

Oh, yes, I should know. Okay. That was her name. I'm so sorry. Miss Gin. Marijuana. And then she says, I live in Chicago. It's legal to open an arc.

Wow. It did seem like her name was Miss Gin Marijuana. I was like, what a great name. Yeah. Allison Washousen. Grandma W's Chocolate Chip Cookies. Charlotte Badger. Butter Crunch Cookies.

What the fuck's a Butter Crunch Cookie? I don't know, but I would eat the shit out of it. Yeah, I bet I would. Oh, no. Fern Marshallsov, which is spelled S-A-M-H. So I'm very glad that she gave us that lovely pronunciation. Jammy Dodgers. Courtney S.

Loft House Frosted Sugar Cookies. Caitlin B. Macarons. Pajammy. Keebler Magic Middles. I wish they still existed. What's a middle? I think that's the cookie I described to you the other day.

Calm down. I can't understand described to you the other day. Calm down. I can't understand you when you're hysterical. What was the cookie? I don't keep my cookies with chocolate in it. And they came in a little triangle packet. Wait, they have a little chocolate what? Like a Hershey Kiss almost in it. But it's a little cookie and then chocolate.

Uh-huh. And then they came in like a little pack of three and it was a triangle. I have no memory of this. I don't know that that's the same cookie, but that's what it's making me think of. And they were made by Keebler. And they did have magic metals. Jennifer B. Monster Cookies. Welcome to the Supreme Court.

I'm hot. It's so steamy. Thank you for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe. I got stuck. Subscribe.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics.

Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the Dateline episode, Smoke and Mirrors, as well as reporting from the Chicago Tribune, Fox 32 Chicago, and CBS Chicago. I got my info from an article for the Huffington Post by Melissa Jeltsin, articles for the Plain Dealer by Andrea Simakis and John Coniglia, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, the New York Times, Teen Vogue, and an article for the CM Law alumni page. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.