Let's Go To Court! - 192: A Wild Robbery and the Honeymoon from Hell

Episode Date: October 20, 2021

Marjorie Jackson was a multi-millionaire who didn’t trust banks. So, when she discovered that a high ranking bank employee had stolen from her, she took action. Over the course of four months, she showed up at the bank with a suitcase or a couple of grocery bags and made massive cash withdrawals. She took out millions of dollars and hid the money in her modest Indianapolis home. People worried about Marjorie. It didn’t seem safe for a 66-year-old woman to live alone, surrounded by millions of dollars in cash. It wasn’t. Then Brandi tells us about a pair of newlyweds whose honeymoon ended in murder. Anni Hindocha and Shrien Dewani were a beautiful couple. They married at Lake Powai near Mumbai, India, and afterward, went on a whirlwind honeymoon to South Africa. They started their trip with a few nights at Kruger National Park, followed by a trip to Cape Town. Once they got there, they met a driver named Zola Tongo. He told the couple he’d be their tour guide. On the ride back from dinner one night, two men hijacked the car. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Notorious 92: Indiana’s Most Heinous Murders in all 92 counties,” by Andrew E Stoner “Banker testifies in heiress’ murder,” by Kristie Hill for the Associated Press “Alleged bandit gang activities taken up,” The Indianapolis News, November 30, 1931 “F. Lee Bailey told Willard, to bury cash, witnesses say,” by R. Joseph Gelarden for the Indianapolis Star, December 3, 1977 “Robinson innocent of Jackson slaying; guilty on other counts,” by Carolyn Pickering for the Indianapolis Star, April 25, 1978 “Robinson’s defense brief in murder trial,” The Indianapolis Star, April 23, 1978 “Missing millions and the murder of grocery heiress Marjorie Jackson,” by Dawn Mitchell for the Indianapolis Star “Murdered heiress, missing millions an enduring Indiana mystery,” by Tim Evans for the Indianapolis Star “Marjorie Jackson Murder Case,” Encyclopedia of Indianapolis “Was FBI agent involved in missing fortune of murdered heiress?” by Mia De Graaf for the Daily Mail In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Honeymoon Murder” by Joshua Hammer, The Atavist Magazine “Anni Dewani” chillingcrimes.com “Honeymoon Murder: Timeline of events for Shrien Dewani” BBC.com “Dewani murder case: How grieving husband became suspect” by Steven Morris, David Smith, and Alex Duval Smith, The Guardian “Dewani trial: what really happened and how did police get it so wrong?” by Dan Newling, The Guardian “Murder of Anni Dewani” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a wild robbery.

And I'll be talking about a honeymoon nightmare. They were the perfect couple. See, you can't even finish the sentence because it's the honeymoon thing. It's the honeymoon, yeah. They didn't even have time to be the perfect couple. Before things went terribly wrong. Is this one of those stories where someone gets pushed off a cliff on the honeymoon? No, no cliffs. No cliffs, no cru No, no cliffs. No cliffs.

No cruises. No balconies. Is this some kind of budget honeymoon in Branson? It is not. Okay, all right. Well, I'll just...

Why don't you quit fucking racing? All right, I'll stop. I'll stop. Uh-huh. Oh, Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. Here we are feeling good in the neighborhood. Here we are.

Feeling good in the neighborhood. We had a very nice lunch today. Certainly did. We had cocktails. I feel like we don't even need to tell the people. I don't think anybody needs us to tell them we had cocktails. They can feel it in the air. Coming in the air tonight. You're welcome.

I was trying to think of like liqueurs that I could say in the rhythm of that, but you know, like raspberry liqueur. It's just like you can't do it in the rhythm. No. Yeah. You know why? Because the rhythm's gonna get you. It's gonna get you! Shut up! Tonight. Everyone,

welcome to the show. Welcome to our podcast. We've got quite a show for you. It is not After Dark, but it feels like it is. It's got the vibe. It does. It's got the vibe. It's got a a show for you. It is not after dark, but it feels like it is. It's got the vibe. It does. It's got the vibe.

It's got a real after dark vibe. But you know what? We've got to get the show on the road because you know what we've got to do? We've got to do a Zoom call tonight. That's right. Get your pants on. Let's go. I refuse.

I will now do this podcast. Fully nude. No, just from the waist down. Oh, that's good because they would look no different. I would have no idea if you didn't have pants on right now.

You could feel the energy, though. Just the heat generating from your crotch. Coming off of my broiler. All right, it's a family show. It's not, though.

But both of our families do listen. I know my aunt said, you know, some of the stuff you guys say on there, I would be embarrassed to say knowing my parents listened. Yep. Yep.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. That is accurate. Classier individuals would have stopped a long time ago. They probably would have never released any of these episodes. That's exactly right. And yet here we sit and we're about to do an ad. Get ready to experience an all-new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus

has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500, and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. At Don Valley North, Don Valley North Collection. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. Here we go. Oh, yeah. Tell us about, what was it?

A wild robbery. Okay, you get a little sarcastic with me, but you know what? You're going to be on the edge of your seat. What if I fall out? That would be amazing. I'd be like, I've done it. Peak. Peak storytelling.

First of all, thank you to Rio Santos for suggesting this case. And a huge shout out to the book Notorious 92, Indiana's Most Heinous Murders in All 92 Counties by Andrew E. Stoner. Don't make that face. That's a book you would love to thumb through. I bet I would love it. That would be on your coffee table in five seconds if you had the opportunity. Plus some awesome reporting in the Indianapolis Star by Tim Evans. And where would I be if I hadn't had newspapers.com to carry me through this research?

I took a big swan dive into the 1970s archives of the Indianapolis Star, and boy, are my arms feathery. Nobody laugh. Nobody encourage this behavior, please. It's so good. Old-timey disclaimer. Ooh, old-timey. Okay, excellent. Yeah, a lot of conflicting sources on this.

72. That's not like super old-timey, but that is like 50 years ago. Yeah, it sure is. All right, all calm down. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. My sincerest apologies.

And the disclaimer is more about, like, you've got a lot of conflicting sources, ma'am. Don't roll your eyes at me. Don't try to explain the old-timey disclaimer to me, ma'am. You know what? This is like when you tried to tell me what

Costco has in stores. You're absolutely right. I've never been more offended. Brandy, are you familiar with the standard grocery chain? No. Hmm. I guess someone's not from Indiana and wasn't born in the 1930s. That's correct. All right.

Anyway, let's start with a murder. We're just going to start with a murder? Yeah. Picture it. The summer of 1931, Indianapolis, Indiana. A man named Lafayette Andrew Jackson. Lafayette?

Yes, relation to Andrew Jackson. No. Yes. Really? Yes. See, I like because usually you say no relation to Andrew Jackson. I said yes relation. Yeah, we got it. We're going to be here all day if you need to explain each joke,

Kristen. So what I did there was... Let me explain to you the genius of my comedy. If you're not laughing, it's because you don't understand. Obviously.

Okay, so he was the founder of the Standard Grocery Chain, and he was at work in the office of the main Standard Grocery Store when all of a sudden, three men entered the store, located at 419 East Washington Street. I, you know, I had trouble. I thought maybe I found it, but then I thought I found a parking lot. What do I got? What do we got?

Looks like an empty lot. Yeah, they might have paved paradise and put up a parking lot. Oh, no, this is Kansas City. What town are we in? Indianapolis. Oh, excuse me. I didn't realize. What town are we in?

Indianapolis. Oh, excuse me. I didn't realize. This story is about one of the dozens of people who live outside of Kansas City. It's the same parking lot. Okay, just kidding. It's the same parking lot. I thought I was not in Kansas City.

But the closest street view that Google seems to have is at 450 East Pearl Street. Mm-hmm. Which is very confusing. I probably should have cut this whole business. We don't even really need to know where this occurred. It was just an old-timey store, all right? Great. An old-timey grocery store.

Nobody look it up. Yeah. So these dudes walked in and they demanded money. Do they have masks on? I don't know. Gloves? They had big canvas bags with dollar signs on them. Black and white striped shirts.

They shouldn't have painted the dollar signs on the bags. It's so obvious when you're walking away from the place. I just leaned forward so far that my shoulder hit the microphone. So we're pros. Professionals. That was the two cocktail lean there. But, you know, they demanded money. They had their guns drawn. But Lafayette, you know what he did?

He reached for his gun. He aimed his revolver at one of the bandits. Fired it. But, you know, it was three against one. Did he die? He sure did. By the way, this murder is not the focus of this story.

We're just passing through this murder on the way to more mayhem. The important thing to know is that after Lafayette Andrew Jackson was murdered, his son, Chester Jackson, became president of the grocery store chain. He had to give up his dream of becoming a molester. It's tough. It's a real mixed bag because the kids were relieved. But you hate to see someone give up on their dreams. But you really have to ask yourself, you know, like, should every dream be realized? Oh, no. oh no

oh no so Chester he got out of the child molesting piss and went into the grocery store piss that's a good change more lucrative I'll tell you that So Chester, he got out of the child molesting biz and went into the grocery store biz. That's a good move. That's a good change.

More lucrative, I'll tell you that. So this was a big deal. His father had started the grocery store in the late 1800s, and it was now a booming business. Because, fun fact, many people eat food multiple times a day. That is true. I've heard that before. I've experienced it myself. Just... Shit.

Oh no. We're like two minutes into this episode. Alright, get it together. So Chester inherited this massive... Oh, no. Okay, I'm done. I've got it. Mm-hmm.

So Chester inherited this massive business, which was made up of more than 250 standard grocery stores. And in 1947, the National Tea Company came a-knockin'. And they were like, Chester, will you sell us the standard grocery store chain? And Chester was like, absolutely. I've been wanting to take some time off to get back to my roots. God, this is terrible. How dare you bring this up? So he took the money from that transaction and he got to invest in.

We're talking like $14 million in coal stocks, $5 million in municipal bonds, yada, yada, yada. The important thing is that at this time, Chester had an estate worth about $25 million. Holy shit. Adjusted for inflation, $306.6 million. Fuck. As they say in the grocery store biz, hot diggity dog. Only in the grocery store biz do they say that? In the hot dog aisle specifically.

See, what I did there is... No! Now, Brandy, I'm going to have to ask you to calm down because Chester was a married man. But don't worry. He was not faithful. In fact, one time he went into the local Five and Dime store in downtown Indianapolis, and he spotted a cashier named Marjorie O'Connell. Oh.

Marjorie was a hot blonde, and Chester was so taken with Marjorie that he gave her a nickname. It was My Million Dollar Baby from the Five and Ten Cent Store. That's a terrible nickname. That takes so long to say. It just rolls off the tongue. So naturally, Chester and his

million dollar baby from the five and ten cent store started banging and they banged for years. One source said they banged for like 20 years which just seems impossible. At any rate, it was supposed to be a secret affair, but you supposed to be a secret affair,

but you can't keep a secret for 20 years. No, everybody knows about it after 20 years. Yeah, and that's why, like, eventually word got out that I have an ass that won't quit. It's because you can't keep things a secret for 20 years. So at some point, they didn't even bother hiding the affair. Just like, I don't even bother hiding my ass anymore. It's just out.

Just out there for the world to see. And Chester and Marjorie began living together while Chester was still married. But eventually, in 1952, he and Marjorie made it official. They got married. And they moved into a somewhat modest, but I think very cool looking home located at, and you can look this up, 6490 Spring Mill Road, Indianapolis, Indiana. It is 1950s fabulous. No Zillow on it? Well, that's very top results.

You tried looking at the top result? Holy shit! This house just sold! Yeah, so I actually have something in here about that. So the house sold in May of this year for $555K, but the Zillow's estimate puts it at $634K. So clearly the new owners... You know something terrible clearly the new owners got the bad shit down here. Yeah.

I mean, obviously. To get a discount like that? It's a pretty big discount. It's a hefty discount. Mm-hmm. What? You're making faces? It looks like it got a like a 2002 update it needs a what it really needs is like a revamping back to its

glory days careful what no so it's very cool on the outside yeah not super special on the inside yeah it's gonna get been given a really plain makeover. Yeah, well, you know, you're going to hear some stuff. Okay, great. All right, now close that tab. Okay. Wait, is it going to say at the bottom of the listing that 12 people were murdered in this house? You know, I looked in the listing,

because I'm always kind of like, you've got to say something, right? They don't say. They're just like, oh, we redid it in 2002. And tastes haven't changed since 2002. So Marjorie and Chester quickly settled into that sweet, sweet married life. But was it sweet or was it eccentric as hell? What does that mean?

Okay, so Chester had this habit of stashing big sums of money all over the house. Like, really big sums of money. Just a little here, a little there. Beep, beep. Everywhere. One source said he did this because he didn't trust the IRS, which is

a hilarious way of saying that he was a very rich dude who didn't pay his share of taxes. Chester also wasn't a super trusting guy, which I think kind of makes sense because his dad had been murdered over money. Yeah. And literally by accident this morning, I stumbled across an article about him being the victim of extortion at one point. And that's just what I stumbled across. So obviously having a bunch of money, that kind of put a target on him you know what they say what no money no problems and they're right yeah so chester did have a reason to be a little weird about money and marjorie who had not

come from money herself either picked up chester's habits or maybe she came into the relationship with a bit of fear and distrust around money and they just kind of fed off of each other. At any rate, in 1970, Chester died. And with Chester gone, Marjorie began to change. A lot of the sources on this are old-timey sources or new-timey sources getting – I'm sorry. I almost said getting off on old-timey sources. I don't believe that any journalist got off in the writing of these stories. I meant going off of old-timey sources. So it's hard to know what was deemed like eccentric behavior back in the day and what we might now call a mental illness.

Yeah. But here's the bottom line. Marjorie didn't leave the house much after Chester died. Most sources refer to her as a recluse. Is it a recluse or a recluse? A recluse. All right. Yeah.

And this is really fun. She got super duper hardcore religious. Oh. But she missed the part in the Bible about loving thy neighbor because on the rare occasions when she did leave the house, she'd shout racist insults at people. Excellent. And, okay, this next part is rough. And, Brandy, this will offend your Johnson County roots, but... Oh my God. After a while, Marjorie...

She let the lawn go! Oh no! The lawn wasn't mowed on a regular basis. There were weeds everywhere. Not a gazing ball in sight. Oh, my gosh. Wasn't shit to gaze at. The neighbors were pissed.

They were also annoyed that Marjorie had bought two brand new Cadillacs, one white and one brown. Because get this, she planned to drive the brown one in the winter and the white one in the summer, but she never even drove them. Sounds to me like they were a little jealous. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like she ever really had people over, but if she had, they might have seen a large number of gifts laying around the house. Some were nicely wrapped. Others were wrapped in aluminum foil. Okay. For the most part, the gift tags were all the same. They said, to God from Marjorie, or to Jesus Christ from Marjorie Jackson. She doesn't think Jesus knows her last name. She was not on a first name basis.

Jesus. She did specify Jesus Christ. Yeah. Not some other Jesus. Right. You may be wondering what the gifts were. Yeah. What would you wrap up for

Mr. Jesus? A nice waffle iron. Oh, interesting choice. Well, hers were more of a mixed bag. Sometimes she wrapped up fat stacks of cash. Other times she wrapped up baked goods. Other times she wrapped up washcloths.

Either way, it's the thought that counts, Jesus, so thank you. Over the years, Marjorie trusted fewer and fewer people. She was sure people were out to get her. Specifically, she thought the banks were out to get her. She openly accused them of stealing from her. Which sounded like the nutty ramblings of a woman whose yard had not been mowed recently. But in actuality, Marjorie was right.

One of the banks was stealing from her. What? Yeah, turns out this douchebag named Herbert D. Biddle. Herbert Biddle? Herbert D. Biddle. Herbert Biddle? Herbert D. Biddle. He was a vice president at the Indiana National Bank, and he embezzled like 700 grand from the bank.

Holy shit. I know, Herbert. Wow. He had encouraged Marjorie to put some of her money into specific accounts, and then he drained those accounts. And Marjorie was devastated because although she'd been suspicious of the banks and she thought someone was stealing from her, she never suspected a guy with a name like Herbert D. Biddle to screw her over. Get ready to experience an all new Don Valley North Lexus. Don Valley North Lexus has temporarily relocated around the corner to 7200 Victoria Park Avenue while they build a brand new dealership for you. The deals don't stop, though. Get loyalty rates as low as 1.9%, delivery credits up to $1,500,

and save up to $7,000 on select demonstrator models. Don Valley North, Don Valley North Lexus. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. on select demonstrator models. A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. So Herbert D. Biddle got 10 years in prison. That sounds like Humpty Dumpty's brother. I was going to say, I really didn't need to say his name three times, but I just had to. Meanwhile, Marjorie was pissed and she was more distrustful than ever before. This experience had shown her once and for all that a bank was not a safe place to keep money.

So she started randomly showing up at the banks where she had some money with a suitcase in tow or maybe a bunch of paper grocery bags and she'd be like, hello, I'm here to take out a million dollars. Well, you can't just take out a million dollars. Dollars? You sound like the bank employees. Yeah, the bank employees were like, well, holy hell. I mean, can you please not? And also, can you give us a minute?

Yeah. But Marjorie was adamant. She did not want to give anyone a minute. She'd show up at the bank, a 66-year-old woman by herself, armed with nothing more than grocery bags and a suitcase, and be like, hello, I want to walk out of here with a shit ton of money in cash. Oh, my gosh. So the banks did take serious steps to stop her through the

court system. But Marjorie was able to convince a judge that she was perfectly capable of handling her money. And she even got the judge to write up an official document stating that she was of sound mind so that when she went to the bank to pull out an obscene amount of money, they'd have a tough time denying her. So at some point, the banks kind of worked out a deal with her. They would have to special order large sums of bills in order to meet her demands because she always wanted, you know, a shit ton of money, and she wanted it in hundreds. And when she'd get to the bank and stuff all the money into a suitcase or grocery bags, the bank would always have a sheriff's deputy there to at least walk Marjorie to her car.

This was just an effort to keep Marjorie safe. But she hated it. She hated being followed to her car. At one point, Marion County Prosecutor James Kelly talked to Marjorie and he was like, hey, what you're doing isn't safe. Can you at least put your money in a safe place? And she said, it is going to a safe place. And he said, OK, your home is not a safe place. Yeah.

And she said, yes, it is. She was certain she was doing the right thing. Over the course of just four months, Marjorie walked out of the bank with about $8 million. Holy shit. Adjusted for inflation. That's like $36 million. Wow. Adjusted for inflation, that's like $36 million.

Wow. Eventually, word got out around town that there was this old lady who lived alone in a house filled with money. Yes. Which is why it's not safe. True. And that's how 19-year-olds Walter Bergen Jr. and Douglas Howard Green decided that they were going to pull off a robbery. That's exactly what they did. They broke into Marjorie's home and they found a bunch of jewelry. There was jewelry everywhere.

That's much better than blood. I agree. If I had to choose. Blood or jewelry. I would choose jewelry. Same. Nine times out of ten, I'd say. Yeah, because if they were like, hey, what do you want in your veins?

Yep. I'd for sure say blood. Jewelry not going to do me any good. They got all the jewelry. They stuffed their pockets full of it. One source said that Marjorie hid in the house while the robbers were there. Another source, that I kind of believe more, said that these guys had been tipped off about Marjorie's house full of cash by this sketchy dude who worked at Marjorie's favorite florist. She had a favorite florist?

Yeah. Betrayal. Mm-hmm. favorite florist. Yeah. Betrayal. And the sketchball told the robbers when to go rob Marjorie and he stood outside as the lookout. At any rate, Walter and Douglas were running around Marjorie's house, stuffing their pockets full of jewelry, when one of them opened up a closet. And they found

$817,000 in cash just sitting there. And they were like, whoa, fuck the jewelry, let's get this cash. So they fled the scene with like $800-something thousand dollars. But Brandy, these guys were not criminal masterminds, and I would love to know more about their logic, but alas, all I have are the bare facts. So here it goes. As they drove down the road, away from Marjorie's house, they started chucking jewelry out the window. What?

I... Okay. I Okay The only logic I can see Is like Jewelry can be somewhat easily traced back Yeah you pawn it Yeah

Yeah yeah Although I would argue That they're creating A jewelry trail of breadcrumbs Yeah I agreed And also it's like Those things aren't worth nothing Treat it like an art heist

Sell it on the black market. Am I right, Brandy? No. Great idea, huh? Terrible idea. So anyway, they discarded so many diamond necklaces and diamond rings and watches that they weren't even sure how many they'd thrown out. What they cared about was the money. They were so stoked about all the money they'd stolen.

In fact, they were so excited that they just couldn't hide it. They were about to lose control, and I think they liked it. They went on a spending spree and on a bragging spree. Great. They were like, hey, we're super rich now because we robbed an old lady. Pretty cool, huh? Okay, this whole thing could, honest to God, be a movie. I don't know how it is not already a movie.

Because at some point, someone robbed one of these guys, and he couldn't do anything about it. It's not like you can go to the cops and be like, excuse me, this guy just stole $200,000 from me. And they're like, how do you get $200,000? And you're like, uh. Don't worry about it. That's none of your business. I'm just a very successful 19-year-old. It seemed like some of the people in their inner circle got really annoyed and jealous that these guys had all this cash on them.

Because they were being kind of dicks about it. Yeah. that these guys had all this cash on them because they were being kind of dicks about it. And to add to that, Walter and Douglas, you know, were out here being stupid and really obvious with their stolen money, and nothing was happening. So Walter and Douglas' friends were like, okay, when the hell is that old lady going to report the robbery?

This is so annoying. Finally, one of the friends had enough, and he snitched to the police. So police headed over to Marjorie's house, and the deputies knocked on the door, and Marjorie answered the door with a toy gun in her hand. Oh, my God. She aimed it at them and told them to get off her property. And they didn't shoot her, which is some rich white lady bullshit if I've ever heard of it. Yep.

Instead, they were like, Marjorie, Marjorie, no, hey, hey, you're not in any trouble. We're just here to see if you want to press charges against the guys who stole all that money and jewelry from you. And she was like, no one stole from me. That never happened. Oh, my gosh. I mean, after a while, the deputies just had to leave. The police and the DA, though, were super annoyed. They knew she'd been robbed.

They knew who had done it. But Marjorie refused to press charges because that robbery had never happened. And if it did happen, then it was God's will. Okay. God's will? Yeah. It wasn't God's will for that banker to steal the money, but this was God's will. I guess he didn't appreciate the washcloths.

Obviously. Obviously. Yeah. Fast forward to May 7th, 1977. It was a little before 7 a.m. And there was smoke coming from Marjorie Jackson's house. Seven on May 7th, 1977. Yes, Brandy. I'm just making sure that I had the time right.

You know what this firefighter's name was? Seven. Yeah. I'm sorry, that's Sven. Do they have numbers on the back of their little jackets? Yeah, sure. And his number was seven. Was it?

Yeah. I don't think so. Is it too good? You could believe his name was Sven, but you couldn't buy that it was. Okay, all right, fine. Nope. You took it too far. Classic pig.

So someone must have called it in because firefighters arrived on the scene, and they cut through a bunch of locks in her fence so that they could get into the house, and it didn't take Sven long to put out the fire. The fire had mostly been contained to the entryway in the family room. How much money did she lose? Great question. Question of the century. As they entered the house and put out the fire, they discovered an odd scene. Okay, so different sources describe this different ways.

Some say that, you know, there was just jewelry everywhere, dumped out drawers, dumped out jewelry boxes and just cash, piles of cash, hidden and not so hidden. Other sources say that they were kind of walking through and, you know, it's kind of a weird house, but, you know, whatever, they're about to leave. And then they saw this footlocker and they were like, well, maybe we should see what's in this footlocker. So they went to a toolbox to, you know, open up the footlocker. And when they opened up the toolbox, it was filled with cash. And so they went to get another toolbox, and that was filled with cash. And they went to all these different places, all filled with cash. They finally got the footlocker open, and it was filled with dirty laundry.

Oh! So the headboard in the master bedroom was stuffed with cash. Vacuum cleaner bags, stuffed with cash. Trash cans, stuffed with cash. Toolboxes, stuffed with cash. Sewing kits, stuffed with cash. Everything was stuffed with cash. What about, okay, those little blue tins of cookies?

You know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about. Was that stuffed with cash. What about, okay, those little blue tins of cookies? You know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about. Was that stuffed with cash, too? I don't think so, because I mean, Marjorie, like, she needed big, I mean, this isn't like, this is where I'm sticking my Disney World money. This is like, I took a milf. It wasn't big enough for her cash, so she just had her sewing supplies in there.

Yeah, because I mean, she had to put the tools and sewing supplies somewhere. Yeah. Also the dirty stuff from the vacuum cleaner bags. Anyway. The dirty stuff? You mean the dirt? Yeah. Ha ha ha ha ha! The dirty stuff.

What's that dirty stuff inside the vacuum cleaner bag? Oh, you mean fucking dirt? Brandy, it's not nice to make fun of me. I'm a genius. I'm not familiar with dirt the way you are. Okay.

Okay. So they started adding it all up and eventually they were like, it's time to call in the brass. What does that mean? call in the brass? I don't know, the sheriff? Yeah, I think so. Anyway, they called somebody up. Yeah. In total, there was more than $5 million cash just sitting in the home.

All right, well, mind your fucking business. What do you mean, mind your fucking business? It's not your problem if there's cash in the house. Well, if you could, this is the ultimate, I want you to remember this moment, this is the ultimate keep your pants on. Are you ready for the next line in this? Yeah. And amongst all this

chaos, they discovered Marjorie Jackson dead on her kitchen floor. Oh, shit. She'd been shot in the stomach. You bitch. I bet you were going to say. What? That she'd been stuffed with cash. Brandy.

But of course she didn't because that would be in poor taste. We would never say that on this podcast. You know, they thought she'd be stuffed with cash, but it was really dirty laundry. We should never drink again. No. I'm never gonna drink again.

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Her body was beginning to decompose, and interestingly, it really hadn't been damaged by the fire. For investigators, this was a bizarre, confusing crime scene. First of all, there was all the money. Then there were all the wrapped up gifts that were labeled to God or Jesus,

and there was an elaborate feast set up on the dining room table for Jesus, and there was just stuff. They found 50 loaves of bread, 150 pounds of coffee, 2,400 cookies, fancy cakes with religious themes. I'll give you a trash bag full of cash if you can guess who those cakes were for. Jesus Christ.

Yep. There was aluminum foil on every doorknob. Aluminum foil on every heating vent. What's that do? Are you kidding me? I have no idea. Oh, you see, Brandon, it's pretty scientific. Okay, so our lizard brains...

I have no idea. The particularly tough thing about this crime was that it was impossible to know what had been taken. crime was that it was impossible to know what had been taken. And it was pretty tough to narrow down a suspects list when so many people knew that Marjorie lived alone in a rundown house that was brimming with cash. It was also kind of like, stupid's not the right word, but it's kind of a weird crime. And like the sheriff even said this at the time. Like, someone could have just come in here, robbed the place, come back, robbed her again, come back, robbed her again. She never would have pressed charges.

She probably wouldn't have even noticed. Why'd they kill her? Like, there just seemed to be no point. her. Like, there just seemed to be no point. But all hope was not lost, because apparently the Federal Reserve had been keeping pretty good records on all of Marjorie's massive cash withdrawals from the previous year. So they had serial numbers on a lot of the money, which meant that in theory, they could track the money down. But it would be kind of tough. The criminals would have to be really stupid. I mean, if the criminal just played it cool and didn't go on a spending spree, they probably wouldn't get caught.

But they did, didn't they? Word got out about this robbery and murder. I fucking love this story. And a whopping two days after Marjorie was discovered dead, police got a call from some salesmen at an Indianapolis car dealership. And they were like, yeah, we need you to come down here real quick. We're dealing with two guys who are flush with cash. As it turned out, two days earlier, these two guys, 38-year-old John Williams and 29-year-old Manuel Robinson, came into a dealership and bought two new cars in cash. But now, two days later, they were back at the dealership and they were like, yeah, I know we just bought these new Lincoln Continentals, but now we'd like a trade-in deal.

And you'll never believe it, but it turns out that when the investigators looked at the serial numbers on the cash that the two men had used to buy the cars, it all came from Marjorie's stash. Weird. Yeah. So they arrested both the men and they went to Manuel's girlfriend's apartment. Manuel's girlfriend was Annie Young, and she was young. She was 22. Huh.

Don't you think it kind of sucks to have a last name like Young when you get old? I remember when I actually was young. Now my last name seems ironic. People laugh at me. So Annie lived in a, like, nothing special apartment. But inside it was something very special. Stacks of cash? Yeah, like half a million dollars of cash.

She had it in her nightstand, in her dresser, in a suitcase. You know, just like wherever you could stack some cash. Yeah. Then they searched Manuel's apartment and they found $1.6 million in a suitcase under his bed. Jeez. Must have been a big-ass suitcase. I was just saying, you can get that much in a suitcase? Who knew?

Well, this was before the days on planes where, like, they charged you 50 bucks more for the bigger bags. So, you know, I don't know. 70s were a wild time. They sure were. And they were like, hey, buddy, what's with the $1.6 million under your bed? I just cleaned out my retirement fund.

I'm just like a normal 29-year-old guy with $1.6 million in my retirement account. And I just decided I'm going to take the penalty fees. Yeah. And I'm going to go to Branson. Yep. Going to live it up big time. They're like, did you get that from robbing marjorie jackson and he was like no i got that money from a man and they were like cool what's the name of the man? And Manuel was like, I don't remember. Oh, my gosh.

And they were like, that's the worst lie we've ever been told. A man gave you $1.6 million, and now his name has slipped your mind? And so finally Manuel was like, okay, I think I do have the guy's number. And he gave them the phone numbers for a woman named Marjorie Pollitt and a man named Howard Willard. But as it turned out, those two were missing. So at this point, the authorities were thinking, wait a second, this is no Oceans 2. This is more like Oceans 11. Because of the number of people involved.

Yeah, I get it. Do you understand? And then they were like, wait a tick. We've got two Marjorie's. Well, it's not illegal to have this. What? You think they said to him, oh, I'm terribly sorry. We can't have

another Marjorie. It's going to be just a bitch for the paperwork. People are going to get confused. It's really going to fuck us up on paperwork. I think there were a have another Marjorie. It's going to be just a bitch for the paperwork. People are going to get confused. It's really going to fuck us up on paperwork. I think there were a lot of Marjories in the 70s. You think? Yes! It was the Ashley of its day. Okay. The Lily of its day. The...

What else is popular now? What are all the kids named these days? I don't know. Well, you have a kid. Yeah, but she doesn't have, like, a normal name. She has a cool name. She's not named, like, Eleanor. That's what all the kids are named these days. No, they're not.

Yeah, old lady names. Evelyn. Oh, I love Evelyn. Yeah. Love Evelyn. Hazel. I like that, too. I know.

You don't seem like an old lady name. The only name I considered was Goldie because that was my great grandma's name, and I thought that would be super cute on a little girl. Yeah. But also on a Labrador retriever. Yes. I mean, I'm not wrong. You're not. So, oh, yeah, I already said my hilarious Ocean's Eleven joke.

Yeah, we don't need to hit that again. I think people have stopped laughing from that. So the mayor called up the FBI because it looked like Marjorie and Howard had taken their cash and skedaddled the hell out of Indiana. Now it was May 12th, 1977, and authorities got on the horn and they were like, hear ye, hear ye. We are looking for a 38-year-old man named Howard Willard and oop, cougar alert, his 48-year-old ex-wife, Marjorie Pollitt. And everyone was like, oh, wait, they're divorced? What happened? And the FBI was like, get this. They were married to each other twice, but then they got divorced twice. So now they're divorced from each other, but we're pretty sure they're still living together. And everyone was like, wow, what a complicated relationship. Do you think they're meant to be together? Or is it more like a toxic codependent thing?

And the FBI was like, hey, listen, we would love to go further into this. But this is a bulletin and we don't have time for this. And there are murderers on the loose. Okay, so we just don't have the time. All right. So that's how it all went down for you.

Those bulletins were crazy in the 70s. And you could respond. Real wild, yeah. At this point, Marion County Sheriff Donald Gilman made one of those personal

right to the camera, please, to Howard and Marjorie. In the name of my son, Billy. Please. One voice, one third. Please turn yourselves in. You're on the lam. Oh.

Did that get you emotional? I'm very emotional. Because I'm so gifted. That's right. And it's so young. Yeah. What will I do with my life? I can't wait to find out.

So he said, turn yourselves into the FBI in the interest of your own personal safety. Exaggerated stories and rumors that you have millions of dollars in your possession put your lives in great danger from unscrupulous persons. I hate it when people don't use the word people. And say persons? Yeah. And get ready, he's going to do it again, this bitch. Okay. So then he was like, hey, you're going to get caught.

We have the serial numbers on all the money you stole. Also, cell phones go ping, cell towers go pong, and people are like, what's a cell phone? He said, forget I said that, I'm not a time traveler. And then he said, there is very little chance you will escape apprehension. And a great chance that harm will come to you at the hands of persons looking to gain whatever money you have in your possession. Oh, shit. Gotta look out for those persons. Yeah, I don't understand the usage.

It's a lot to wrap your head around. Sorry. I started thinking about tinfoil on doorknobs because there's a doorknob like right in my peripheral vision. It doesn't have a scrap of tinfoil on it. And I'm thinking, what kind of waves are coming at me from that thing? Really, I'm getting double teamed because there's a door you're taking it in the front and the back that's right you're also getting it from side to side Donna Donna anyway you seem mildly embarrassed by me this episode. Not at all. Yeah. No more than usual. Oh, dear you.

Have you ever, for real, been, like, embarrassed midway through an episode because of my jokes? Absolutely not. It's weird because you embarrass me all the time. Nothing I'm not used to. It's just not the same when it comes from you. It's not. So at this point, everyone was looking for Howard and Marjorie. But they were looking harder for Howard.

Because investigators had discovered that the day before Marjorie Jackson's body was found, Howard had walked into Pat's Bar in Mooresville, Indiana and was like drinks on me! I'm rich! And then in case people didn't believe him he lit a cigar with a $100 bill. Well that's just a waste

of money. I don't know. I think he proved his point. It's a power move. It's a real power move. It was a power move. I should understand know. I think he proved his point. It's a power move. Mm-hmm. It's a real power move. It was a power move. And then... I should understand that. What?

Like, did he have to take out a lighter and light the $100 bill, and then he had to take the flaming $100 bill and try and light a fucking cigar with it? Do you know how hard it is to light a cigar? Is it really that hard? Yes, it's difficult to light a cigar. Oh, so you're saying it would be hard to do it and look cool. Yeah. Because you might end up needing a couple hundred,, so you're saying it would be hard to do it and look cool. Yeah. Because you might end up needing a couple hundred.

And then you're like, hey, I'm getting more into this than I intended. I really thought this would be like a $100 venture turned into like a $400 venture. Yeah. People are laughing at me. I wish I was spending $400 at venture instead. What's venture? Venture is an old-timey Target. What?

Yeah. Are you a time traveler? No. When? It's where my dad and my mom met. They met at Venture? They both worked at Venture. Oh, my gosh.

In the 80s. Oh, my gosh. Tell me everything. I don't know. What's the extent of what I know? Paint the fucking picture. Why don't you? Okay.

My dad. He was walking down the electronics aisle. I think my dad worked in shoes and I don't know where my mom worked, but clearly neither of them were spending the allotted time in their respective departments.

That's a shame. Not hard workers. No. Boy, you know, I could really make up a story. Lynn came into work shoeless one day. And their eyes locked over a set of white kids. I knew it was going to be kids!

No, you didn't. I did. I knew you were going to say kids. It was the 80s. Yeah. All right, anyway. Oh, boy, I really have to. Have you ever heard of Venture?

No. Huh. That sounds made up. No, it's real. Was it in the Midwest? The black and white logo was like, ch, ch, ch, ch. Diagonal lines. I mean, they were around when I was a kid still.

I've been to a Venture, and I remember it. I remember where two venture locations were. You know what's the craziest part of this? As you said, the logo was like, and I immediately got a picture in my head that I just know is accurate. I'm picturing like that blocky text, like a sans serif blocky text that's like not italicized. It's going the other way. It's like, you know, time's just hitting you fast, you know? Yep.

Okay. Yep. That's right. All right. Here we go. So, you know, he lights his cigar with a $100 bill. And then he was like, you know what? I think i'm gonna

buy this town and name it willardsville why his last name's willard i don't know i thought he's just like a big fan of willard scott america's weatherman i thought he was the smuckers guy what wasn't willard scott the guy who would go out in the crowd at the Today Show and be like, hey, how old are you? Yeah, I thought he was the weatherman. Al Roker was the weatherman. Okay, this is pre-Al Roker. What decade are you from that you remember before Al Roker? Willard Herman Scott Jr. was an American weather presenter, radio and TV personality

in your fucking face. Yeah, maybe in the 1800s, but like in the 90s and in this century, he was just a sweet old man and be like, Virginia is 103 today. Happy birthday, Virginia.

Oh, what's this? Evelyn is 127 today. There is no way you remember Willard Scott telling you what the weather was going to be. Yeah. No. Yeah. No. Maybe I'm a time traveler.

I think you are. Where'd you get those kids you got on? Venture? So, you know, he's saying I'm going to buy up Willardsville, and I don't think it had anything to do with Willard Scott. Well, that's a real shame. Everyone thought he was flying pretty high for a guy who had just totaled his brand new Lincoln Continental, which he just purchased two days earlier. Oh, weird. That would bum a normal person out. Yeah, not someone who's this flush with cash.

No big deal. Disposable car. People must. You know, that's a real drain on the environment, these disposable cars. Yeah. I don't think, personally, I have a reusable car. Yeah. I don't think you should get rid of them every two days.

People might have been suspicious of him because he was from Mooresville. He wasn't some stranger passing through town. And most people knew that he was unemployed. Okay, but yeah, he's, yeah. Okay. Lightening cigars. $100 bills. But see, here's the thing, though.

He had recently started selling LuLaRoe. And he told everyone that if they worked the business like he did, they could have financial freedom as well. It was just a matter of working hard enough for Brandy. Okay. If you... What? Are you trying to inspire people today?

What you got? I got stuck. It didn't come out. Oh, I got it now. What is it? If you're worth it, let me work it. That's what got stuck? Yeah.

I was going to say it reversed. Patty, cut that. No, Patty, don't you dare. People need to know. Well, she struggled to get out. So anyway, it wasn't a huge mystery that Howard Willard had been involved in this crime. I mean, duh. So the authorities were looking for him, and they got word that Howard and Marjorie had fled town in a new Oldsmobile and a camper trailer.

But before they left, they swung by their daughter's apartment and gave her $400. That's it? Thank you. Fuck off. $400? Thank you. This, honestly, it has nothing to do with the story. But I read that.

I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Although, I mean, maybe she was lying when she said they only gave her $400. Hopefully she was. Yeah. But surely they did a big check of, you know, her whole apartment or whatever. I don't think they gave it to her in a big check if that's what you're insinuating. I meant search. I meant search.

Her parents showed up straight from a robbery with a novelty check. Giant novelty check for $400. Congratulations, sweetie. So, it didn't take long for Howard and Marjorie to get caught. Yeah. On Friday, May 20th, a trailer park owner in Tempe, Arizona. Is it Tempe? Tempe.

Tempe. Is it really? It's Tempe, yeah. Oh, that seems wrong, but okay. And he was like, hey, police, I need y'all to get down here. He said that a new couple had just shown up at the trailer park, and they were trying to buy a new trailer from him, and they wanted to do it with cash.

So the FBI showed up in Tempe. They surrounded the trailer, and they, boom, knocked the door in, I assume. And inside, they found $170,000 in cash, plus a business. Marjor found $170,000 in cash. Plus a business. Marjorie?

And Herbert or whatever his name is? Howard. There's been a Herbert in this story. I don't think there's been a single Herbert. There's definitely been a Herbert. Wait, was it, was Herbert D. Billard or whatever his name was? Yes. Herbert D. Billard or whatever his name was? Yes. Herbert D. Dibble.

Dibble. Dibble, yes. Boy, Chester Dibble. Now that'd be a real creepy name, huh? It would be. Anyway, I found this cash. They also, you know, had the couple. Yeah.

And they also found a business card for a little known attorney. Stop me if you've heard of him. He goes by the name of F. Lee Bailey. Oh, shit! Mm-hmm. F. Lee Bailey, before he was disbarred, represented such gems as O.J. Simpson. Yeah! ass, O.J. Simpson! Yeah!

So apparently Howard and Marjorie had called him a few times, F. Lee Bailey, not O.J. Simpson, for advice while they were on the lam. More on that lammer. Around this time? You can't just put a fucking word in there.

I think I'm so funny today. You know what the problem is? I woke up way too early this morning. And I was writing some, adding some little jokeys. Hardly any of them you've laughed at, but I laughed hard when I put these in here. And now I'm

two cocktails deep telling a story. Okay, so anyway, more on that later. And around this time, authorities also arrested Marjorie's sister, Robertina Harrell.

Robertina? I'm afraid so. That's just rude. You know what I think happened there? They thought it was going to be a boy. They set it on the name Robert and then it came out and it was a girl? You wish. Don't you think? Okay.

You got a hillbilly couple. His name's Robert. Her name's Tina. wish. Don't you think? Okay. You got a hillbilly couple. His name's Robert. Her name's Tina. We're having a baby. We're gonna name her Robertina. Yes! No. That's how Jamie Lynn Spears

got her name. I know that's how Jamie Lynn Spears got her name. Do you? Yes. Do you? I sure do. I thought it was like a, oh, yes, we'll name the baby after you, Robert. And then it comes out and they're like, okay, it's a girl, so we can either go Roberta or Robertina. And Robertina is so much prettier. They flipped a coin. Tails Robertina.

Heads Carolina. Everybody knows the Jodi Messina hit. Is Robertina the worst name you've ever heard in your life? It's not a good name.

It's terrible. We've offended three Robertinas who are listening There is no one else named Robertina. It's never happened again after this woman. So Robertina, I guess they were pretty sure, had traveled with Marjorie and Howard on the trip to Arizona.

They had arrested her outside of Atlanta, and she had four grand in her purse. But the real crime was her name. By the way, they ended up arresting like 20 people in connection with this crime. Because everybody's willing to take money after the fact. That's exactly right. Yeah. So I'm not going to cover every single one of them because a lot of the cases are boring and in some cases charges were dropped or they were just charged with enjoying stolen money, which is just, I mean, lock me up. Back to the good stuff.

At this point, investigators believed that Howard Willard had been the mastermind of this whole crime. And I think that's a generous word for Howard Willard. So if they could get Marjorie, his ex-wife slash current girlfriend, talking, this whole thing would unravel. his ex-wife slash current girlfriend talking, this whole thing would unravel. And lucky for them,

Marjorie was like a cashew that had been left out in the rain. An easy nut to crack. Nut this again. You thought I didn't have the nuts to tell more of these jokes. Uh-huh. Well, look at me now. Hard as walnuts.

That's too far. That was too far. That was too far. You did not like it. No, I did not. She told them everything, and she led them everywhere, man. In July of 1977, on a cool 114 degree Arizona day, she took FBI agents out on a field trip to the desert. And she pointed out a spot and they dug five feet down into the ground and discovered $1.67 million. Shit.

Mm-hmm. They got a lot of money out of this house. Yeah. They sure did. Fuck. And they left behind a lot of money out of this house yeah they sure did fuck and they left behind a shit ton of money yeah she was like yeah you know if you go to the bridge over the white river in Indianapolis

that's where we threw the gun that was used to kill Marjorie sure enough a diver was able to recover the gun and you know what they say the nut doesn't far fall from the nut tree. Fall far, what did I just say? You said far fall. That's true.

Doesn't far fall. Because Marjorie's sister, Robertina, was also like a cashew that had been left out in the rain. So they both pled guilty to federal, what? I'm just thinking if my sister's name is Marjorie, and my name's Robertina, I'm going to be real bitter my whole fucking life. Yeah. Yeah, and you would have every right to be.

Yeah, do you think she went by Tina? No, I don't. You think she went by Bertina? No, I think she went by Robertina. No. Because when both of your parents have combined their names to make your very unique name fusion, you don't want to offend them by dropping the Robert. I don't believe this was a Robertina mashup.

It absolutely was. There's no other logical explanation. I already gave it to you. Let's hear it again. I'll refute it. I already gave it to you. Let's hear it again. I'll refute it.

Her dad's name is Robert, and he had already been promised that he got to name the kid after him. And then, ah, shit, it's a girl. Now we got to name her Robertina. No. They would have just tried to have another child. No. No? So you name your child Robertina? Yeah.

That cannot be the solution. What's his butt? Vin Diesel. We all knew it was eventually going to circle back to him. Yeah. Vin Diesel had a baby. Well, his girlfriend or whatever had a baby. And he wanted to name that baby after Paul Walker.

Right. Okay. So could have named her Walker. That would have been super cute. No. Named her Paulina? Named her Paula. Yeah.

I mean, I don't think that's bad. Not a Paula fan? No. I mean, I don't think that's bad. I mean, Paula's fine for an adult, but now she's a baby. She's got to get through. They call her Lil' P or something. Lil' P?

Okay, that sounds terrible. By the way, I got to say, I'm coming into this story with Robertina. You can't come in here like, hold up, wait a minute. There's someone named Paula. It'sula on the same level i do agree i'm just saying paula just add it so it's it's rob it's roberta it's robertina telling you all right you're wrong people weigh in please'm going to get a lot of people on my side. Because Robertina, okay, to name, here's the thing. If you're going to name your kid something crazy like Robertina, it's because you're both excited about it.

You don't, like, compromise and come up with Robertina. I think that's exactly what happened. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. And they're like, you know what happened. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. And they're like, you know what? There's no other Robertinas out there.

It'll be unique. Isn't it cute? Yeah, because it's both of our names. No, it's not. No, it's not a compromise. Because, like, if you came over and I was like, where do you want to eat? And you're like, I want Italian food. And I was like, cool.

I want to eat shit off a plate. You wouldn't be like, well, let's mix them together. That's what you're like, I want Italian food. And I was like, cool. I want to eat shit off a plate. You wouldn't be like, well, let's mix them together. That's what you're saying. No, no. The compromise is what does not make sense in this scenario. No, it's not a compromise. It's that they've already agreed that they can name the baby after Dad Robert. And then, oh, shit, it's a fucking girl.

Wow. I christen thee Robertina. Agreed to disagree. So, Robertina and Marjorie both pled guilty to federal charges of transporting stolen money across state lines, and they agreed to become state's witnesses. When she entered... Why did they look through a spyglass when they did that? What are you talking about? You shut up! You just did that!

Everyone, I did a weird gesture just for Brandon. I was like, I'm not going to even mention anything about it. Hilarious. When she entered her guilty plea, Marjorie told the judge, I'm going to spend my life in heaven, even if it means going to prison and living behind bars. I think she meant her afterlife in heaven, but you know. Yeah, yeah. She means that Jesus has got her back

on account of all the gifts that she left there for him. Yeah, she didn't steal any washcloths on the way out. With so many people under arrest, a story began to come together. Howard Willard, who was like, okay, picture, he's like this white guy, very stupid, terrible hair, was the mastermind, okay? I guess I, I mean, yeah, it was pretty bad hair. I saw one picture.

I kind of hate to judge someone off of one picture, but it was really bad hair. And so, you know, reading all these, like, old-timey articles, it's like, you know, you got the ignorant hillbilly, So, you know, reading all these, like, old-timey articles, it's like, you know, you got the ignorant hillbilly and then the smooth, streetwise black man. And it's like, okay, was he really that streetwise or is that just, like, this is, like, a handsome black man who was involved? Okay, so, Manuel Robinson, personally, I just think they were both stupid. Okay. Sometimes it's not a situation of, like, one person's street smart, the other one is... Not everything has to be like the setup for a sitcom. Exactly.

A zany sitcom. Howard and Manuel! The stupid robbers! Howard and Manuel, the stupid robbers. So in November of 1977, Howard's trial was the first to kick off. He was charged with murder, burglary, robbery, conspiracy, and arson. What's the difference between burglary and robbery? Oh, shit.

I don't know. That is weird. I think maybe burglary is the act of breaking into a place. Robbery is removing the stuff from it. You think so? Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, if someone popped into this house and didn't have time to take anything, I'd yell,

I've been burgled. You know, I would yell. I've got burgled! You know, I would yell. I've got bugles! What? No, what would you... Murder! Murder! Murder! Murder!

Someone tried to correct me on that. Yeah. What'd they say? They said that you misunderstood what they said, and that you've never heard the phrase screaming bloody murder. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Someone was like, no, you know, I think you were reading the articles and you just misunderstood.

Like, you know, they said something like screaming bloody murder, not literally saying murder. No. No. They were literally screaming the word murder. Murder saying murder. No! No! We were literally screaming the word murder. Murder! Murder! I've never been wrong on this podcast, and I didn't start last week. So, interestingly, Indiana had a law against having cameras in the courtroom,

but there was so much demand to see what was going on in this case that the trial was televised live on local TV. Oh, shit. But then a justice on the Indiana Supreme Court was like, are you fucking nuts? You are violating the law in a court of law. Yeah. That is double jeopardy. No.

You know what that means? No. But they were like, get those cameras the hell out of the courtroom. You're going to nullify the trial. So everyone in Indiana was like, oh, biscuits. Because, you know, they'd been enjoying the programming. Yeah. At this point, the defense requested a mistrial, which was something they did a few times,

but they were denied every time, and we don't have all goddamn day. Okay. The prosecution presented their argument, which was basically this. Howard Willard had been the leader of a burglary gang, and this burglary gang had stolen $4 million from Marjorie Jackson's home. They'd planned this out for six months. On May 2nd, they robbed her of like 80 grand. On May 4th, they went back and robbed her again, and this time they killed Marjorie Jackson.

Then on May 7th, they came back to the house and set it on fire to destroy evidence. Yeah. You like it? I do. Who pulled the trigger? Hard to say. And the prosecution would say, who cares? We don't have to prove Howard pulled the trigger, just that he was there as part of this robbery when Marjorie was shot.

Oh, yeah. A pathologist named James Bentz testified that the gunshot to Marjorie's stomach didn't have to kill her. If they'd gotten her medical treatment in time, she absolutely could have lived. Yeah, I think that's really sad. Yeah. He also said that she died one or two days before the fire was set. One of Howard's ex-wives, a woman named Osa Willard, also testified. She said that Howard came to her a few weeks before Marjorie's murder and said that he needed a gun. that Howard came to her a few weeks before Marjorie's murder and said that he needed a gun. She said he told her that he didn't have the guts to use it. The other guy would have to use it. But another witness, a guy named Ralph Wadsworth II, who was the former executive secretary of the city controller, testified that Howard had bragged that if Marjorie Jackson interfered while he was trying to rob her, he'd kill her.

You ready for the direct quote? Yeah. I don't mind blowing the bitch away if she gives us any trouble. Okay. And Ralph was like, yep, fun story. I'm actually the guy who told Howard about Marjorie Jackson's house and how it was full of cash. actually the guy who told Howard about Marjorie Jackson's house and how it was full of cash. And on cross-examination, the defense was like, hey, cool, aren't you also the guy who tried unsuccessfully to break into her house yourself, all while applying for a job in the Indianapolis

Police Department's Victim Assistance Program? And Ralph was like, that's me. I'm complicated. program. Fuck. And Ralph was like, that's me. I'm complicated. Then, of course, Marjorie Pollitt testified. She said that on May 7th, 1977, Howard and Manuel came back to Manuel's girlfriend Annie Young's apartment with a ton of cash. They spent the next few hours dividing all the money between them.

About a million for Howard, a million for Manuel, a million for Annie, and a million for Marjorie. And then Marjorie was like, yeah, and I helped get rid of the murder weapon. She said that for the next few days after the murder, Howard got drunk as a skunk. He kept talking about how he could still hear Marjorie Jackson's dying moans in his head. Yikes. But Manuel was a trigger man. Okay.

Okay, so. Everybody calm down. Yeah. Yeah. Then Marjorie testified about the conversation with F. Lee Bailey. She said, yep, we talked to him. He said he'd represent us, but first we needed to hide the money and turn ourselves in. She claimed it was F. Lee Bailey's idea to bury the money in the desert.

Really? That's what she said. By the way, this was bad publicity, even by F. Lee Bailey standards. Yeah. So he issued a statement, which I don't think really helped that much, but he was basically like, hey, I did talk to them, but I told them that I would only represent them if they could surrender and return the money. And yeah, I told them to keep the money somewhere safe while I negotiated the surrender, not keep it in the camper. I'm a good guy.

Nathan Lane is going to do a bang-up job playing me on The People vs. O.J. Simpson. Then the prosecution wrapped up by having every FBI agent in all the land show up and be like, yes, I was there that hot day in the desert. I saw the buried cash. It was a sight. In total, the prosecution called about 48 witnesses. Why did I say about? It was 48. Maybe it was 47. Maybe it was 49. No, it was 48. The defense called two. Oh.

They actually only wanted to call one because one of their witnesses was Howard Willard. Oh. Yeah. He insisted against the advice of his attorneys that he wanted to testify on his own behalf because he had something to say that would clear this whole thing up are you ready yeah okay well he didn't steal the money he found the money in marjorie's house no brandy oh my god he and manuel have been driving by marjorie jackson's No. Brandy. Oh, my God. He and Manuel have been driving by Marjorie Jackson's house, all innocent-like. And they were like, oh, what's this? Oh, goodness. It's a bag of cash out here thrown over the fence.

Discarded, if you will. So, there you go. They found $4 million in a bag thrown over a fence. I do not like your tone. Well, I think this story is bullshit. Well. The defense was led by James Voiles and Henry Gonzalez. And I think they did their best by trying to get mistrials where they could.

I think they tried to attack this more from a procedural standpoint, because, I mean, what are you going to do with a case like this? I mean, unless they buy the bag over the fence thing. Yeah, that's happening. In closing statements, they argued that Howard had not pulled the trigger. Manuel Robinson had been the one to actually shoot Marjorie Jackson. But on December 6, 1977, the jury found Howard guilty of everything. And on Christmas Eve of that year, he was sentenced to life in prison.

He faced some federal charges the following month and he pled no contest and he got 15 years added to his sentence. In early January of 1978, Marjorie and Robertina received their sentences. They had both cooperated with the prosecution, so Marjorie got five years and everyone felt so sorry for Robertina about her terrible name that they just let her walk free. Now they gave her two and a half years. And the state charges against them were dropped. Then in April of 1978, it was Manuel Robinson's turn to stand trial. Once again, Marjorie Pollitt testified, and she said that Manuel had told her that he had to shoot that woman.

And that Howard had actually been mad at Manuel about shooting her because he almost got shot, too. She also testified that it had been Manuel's idea to set the fire because he was so worried about the fingerprints that were all over everything. Then his girlfriend, possibly ex at this point, I don't know if they stayed together, Annie Young testified about Manuel and Howard coming to her apartment with all the stolen money. Interestingly, the prosecution could have called Howard Willard to the stand, but they thought he was too unpredictable, which is the nicest way I've ever heard of calling someone stupid. Yeah. The defense's case was interesting. They argued, yes, Manuel Robinson enjoyed that stolen money. He lived it up with that stolen money.

But he did not participate in the murder of Marjorie Jackson. They called a witness who said that she had spent all evening with Manuel Robinson on the night of the murder, to which everyone went, Ooh, doing what? Kissing? They also called two witnesses, a car dealer and a tavern manager. I don't know why. What happened to manager there? I was going to make fun of tavern, but manager came out really weird.

What's the difference between a tavern and a bar? Fuck if I know. Exactly. Why not just say, anyway. Anyway. Okay. They said some stuff that wasn't exactly a bombshell, but did point out that Marjorie might be, you know, a lying liar who lies.

In closing arguments, the defense attacked Marjorie might be, you know, a lying liar who lies. Yeah. In closing arguments, the defense attacked Marjorie Pollitt. They were like, everything she says Manuel did could have just as easily been done by Howard Willard. Defense attorney Arnold Barrett went on to point out that Marjorie and Howard were the only two people in the world who would say that Manuel Robinson shot Marjorie Jackson. And yet, the day he was arrested, he gave the names and phone numbers of both those people to the authorities. Why would he do that if he had shot that woman? And the prosecutor said, no one ever accused Robinson of being smart.

Oh, shit. What do you think of that? It's not bad. I mean, yeah, I don't think it's bad, but at the same time, this guy had $1.6 million under his bed. Yeah. He got caught with it, and his story was, this was given to me by a man whose name I don't recall. Yeah. He got caught with it and his story was, this was given to me by a man whose name

I don't recall. Yeah. Not the brightest, I'm going to say. Yeah. So after the defense recovered from that burn, attorney Arnold Barrett

pointed out that his client, unlike Howard and Marjorie, didn't skip town after the murder. He stayed in town. He said, I don't think Manuel Robinson knew anyone was killed. He was too busy spending money.

Yeah. The prosecution reminded the jury, hey, we don't have to prove who pulled the trigger. We just have to prove that Howard and Manuel committed these burglaries and that Marjorie Jackson was killed during that second burglary. and that Marjorie Jackson was killed during that second burglary. On April 25th, 1978, after deliberating for seven and a half hours, the jury delivered their verdict. Guilty of some stuff.

What? Not all of it? No. Not murder? Mm-mm. They found Manuel guilty of burglary, arson, and conspiracy, but not guilty of murder and not guilty of armed robbery. Interesting. Yeah. So he got a 10 to 20 year sentence and was fined 17 grand, which, all right. Okay. But this case remains controversial because to this day, it's still a bit of a mystery as to how much money they took and where that money might be. Is it still in the desert?

So, OK, I thought this was kind of interesting. This could be totally nothing. But as recently as 2015, an 81-year-old investigative reporter named Don Devereaux, who has been nominated for two Pulitzer Prizes. And is Blanche's brother-in-law? Obviously. Brother-in-law, I guess, yeah. Also Devereaux wigs. Devereaux.

Ooh, Devereaux. What the fuck is that? The two other people who enjoyed the program, Detroiters, will enjoy the hell out of that song. Okay. So he got a tip from law enforcement, or someone in law enforcement, I should say. And the tip was that a now-retired FBI agent who had been working this case stole a large sum of money from the hall and put it in a fucking Swiss bank account. We've done a case like that before. Which one?

The Bobby Greenlees case. Half of the ransom was never recovered and one of the FBI agents fucking retired to Hawaii. Oh, bitches. Yep. Yep. So the source was like, it's weird because a lot of the money went missing. And yet we had the full cooperation of all the suspects after they were arrested. So there shouldn't have been money that just wandered off.

So this journalist began looking into it and he did a Freedom of Information Act request and discovered that whoever had sent him the file had not redacted the name of one of the FBI agents who helped recover the money. So that's a mistake that doesn't happen very often. But in this case, on this file, they forgot to redact it six times. So that's the suspect. It's like putting a big flashing, like it's like highlighting the name and being like beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Yep. Yeah. Here you hear you. Yeah. Get on the horn.

Mm hmm. You know, as they say, I don't think that's what they say. Persons are interested in this fellow right here. So this journalist was like, hot damn, is this something that a lot of people suspect? This feels like someone is trying to point me in the right direction. of people suspect. This feels like someone is trying to point me in the right direction. So he looked into it more deeply, and he discovered that part of the file he requested was partially destroyed in 1993. Oh, was it? Yeah, and he thought that was real sus, as the 81-year-olds say. Yeah. And he contacted the FBI's internal investigation section, and they said they were taking no action on his

request. So, I mean, we'll likely never know if this theory is true. Certainly reflects poorly on the FBI if it is true. And that's the story of what is believed to be the biggest home robbery to this day. Oh my gosh. The end. Wow. That's bananas. Cocoa nuts. Cocoa nuts. Okay. One of these articles was like,

this is the next Coen Brothers movie. Yeah. It has to be, right? Yes. Do you think there was money still in that house? Do you think the next people

will buy it? No. So it's shopped all over the places. I don't think it was money still in that house? Do you think the next people who bought it? No. So it shoved all over the places. I don't think it was. So I bet you firefighters, when they came in, had to take some. Police officers. It's in their pockets. Well, I mean, right?

Yeah. You know it hasn't. Because there's no, no one knows how much money is there. Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing is, like, who knows how much Chester had put into the house. And so, like, this is another thing that I didn't even get into. But, like, after all this happened, there was an auction at the house.

And people were just buying everything in the hopes that, like, well, I want to buy that dresser. And then they would tear apart the dresser. Tear it apart. Yeah. Hoping there was money shoved in it. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. All right.

Let's talk about a little honeymoon of horror. That's what I should have named this. Boy, missed opportunity. It is. It's a real missed opportunity. Hold on. Let me get all my tabbies in the right order here. You feeling hot, hot, hot? It did get

warm in here. You know, it was nice and cool when we first entered the room and you've been talking nonstop. Alright. Shout out to Joshua Hammer for The Atavist Magazine. And shout out

to ChillingCrimes.com. Would you say Joshua really nailed this article? He did. He did. Mm-hmm. Also, Would you say Joshua really nailed this article? He did. He did. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Also, international disclaimer here. Okay. Countries mentioned in this episode, a.k.a. people I risk insulting with my poor pronunciations today, Here we go. include Sweden, India, Uganda, England, and South Africa. Oh, boy. She's a real shit show. So my sincerest apologies. I have done some phonetic write-ups, and I hopefully do okay.

Annie Hendocha had everything going for her. She was gorgeous, smart, successful, and maybe, as her father, Vanad, would put it, just a little spoiled. He couldn't help it, though. He just loved his daughter so much. Annie grew up in Maristad, Sweden. That's exactly how it's pronounced. Good. With two siblings, a brother and a sister, along with her mother Nilam and her father Vinod. Her father's family had actually fled to Sweden from Uganda in the 1970s. They had been part of this large, close-knit Indian community there, but in 1972, they were forced out by Idi Amin when he gave Ugandans of South Asian descent 90 days to leave the country. Wow. Following that declaration, more than 60,000 Asians fled Uganda, including Vinod Hinducha, who was 23 at the time.

Please don't tell stories that make me feel like such an ignorant asshole. I'm like, holy shit. Does everybody know about this? I know, right? The answer is probably like, yeah, a lot of people know this. Most people know about it. All right. Sorry.

I think he also fed people to alligators. Oh, good grief. So, Edie, I mean, not a great guy. No, I picked up on that. The Hendocha family thrived in Sweden. Vinod married Nalam, opened a business, and they raised three children together, and they kept their Indian culture strong. Vinod said it was really important to him that his children think of themselves as Indian, even though they were born and raised in Sweden, so far away from the subcontinent. So he insisted that they learned

Gujarati, the language of India's Gujarat state where his father had been born. So Vinod was thrilled when his daughter Annie decided in her mid-20s that she wanted to marry and that her future husband would be Indian. By this time, Annie had graduated from college and was living in Stockholm, working for the communications company Ericsson. They made, like, cell phones and shit. I make my own shit. Wonderful. Ericsson, top-notch shit.

Her father had bought her a one-bedroom apartment there in kind of a ritzy part of town and a new Volvo to celebrate the new phase of her life. Yeah. But Annie felt that her prospects for a husband were pretty limited there. So she spent her weekends in London with some relatives who had connections in some wealthy social circles looking for her future husband. This is exactly how I met Norman. It was 2009 when one of her aunts set up an informal coffee date between Annie and Shreya Dewani. She had seen him at parties in London and she liked the cut of his jib.

Annie's aunt thought he just might be the perfect match for Annie. He was handsome, clean cut, wealthy. Annie and Shreyan hit it off right away. And in September of 2009, they had their first official date. They saw a live performance of the Lion King in London's West End. After which, Annie called her sister and gushed about Shreyan. She couldn't wait to see him again. Brandy, if you went on a date and a guy took you to a performance of The Lion King, you would die.

I would fucking love it. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I'm just like hearing this, I'm like, you would be like, and when are we getting married, sir? Annie and Shrean made for an unbelievably beautiful couple. They were both just ridiculously good looking. And worth noting, they both had amazing hair. I mean, obviously.

Yes. But beyond that, they had so much in common. The Diwani family was Gujarati, just like Annie's, and Shrian's parents had fled Uganda following Idi Amin's decree and settled in England. There, like Annie's father, they had started their own business. Shrian's father, Prakash, had a background in pharmacology and had opened a pharmacy in Bristol. From there, he opened a nursing home and he grew that business into a chain of health care facilities for the elderly. Wow. Yeah.

Shrian went to a fancy prep school in Bristol and then on to the University of Manchester, where he studied accounting. But before settling into the family business, he did some traveling, and he taught English and math in Ghana before moving to London. There, he got a job in an accounting firm, but he left that job within the year to join the family business, PSP Healthcare. The business was growing fast, and Shrean was part of its success. By the time Shrean turned 30, he was a millionaire. Wow. Shrean was very popular and outgoing, though some people thought he was a bit flashy,

a bit of a show-off, maybe a little too into his wealth. Did he light his cigars with $100 bills? I did not come across that. Well, then he's not the flashiest guy we've talked about so far. But to Annie, he was just her Shreyan. He was funny and protective. The couple spent the first few months of their relationship long distance, but in February of 2010, Annie left her job and her apartment in Stockholm,

and she moved to England to be closer to him. A couple of months later, Annie's parents met Shreyan's parents. When the Hendochas pulled up to the Diwani house, Vinod was surprised to see their level of wealth. Vinod did well for himself, but the Diwanis were extremely wealthy. There were BMWs, Mercedes, and Porsches lined up outside the family's impressive home. Wow. Yeah. And Vinod was intimidated. But he was extremely pleased to find the Duanis warm and welcoming. They were fond of Annie and they approved of her relationship with Shrian. In May of 2010, a short time after the family introductions, Shreyan took Annie on a trip to Paris. They flew in a private jet and dined at the Ritz. And during the meal, the server presented Annie with a silver platter. No, this is too much like a movie.

On it was a $40,000 engagement ring. Lord almighty. And Annie said yes. Vinod told Annie to plan whatever wedding she wanted. Again, he did well, but wasn't wealthy. However, he had been saving for his daughter's wedding since they were very young. Annie's older sister was already married and had had a very fancy wedding in Sweden. But Annie wanted something more, something special, something luxurious.

Initially, she and Shran wanted to marry in Dubai. But then they traveled to Mumbai, India, and they fell in love with the town. City. It's not really a town. All right. Vinod was over the moon that his beloved Annie wanted to marry in India. But the cost of the lavish three-day wedding would come in at more than $250,000. Oh, my God.

Well, and the funny thing is, like, a three-day wedding. Yeah. Obviously, that's crazy expensive, but, like, just, like, evening wedding costs people, like, 50 grand. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, the Diwanis agreed to pick up part of the bill and they moved forward with the luxurious three-day wedding in Mumbai. So on the evening of October 19th, 2010, here's something fun for you. Okay. You moved into an apartment that day? No.

October 19th is the day that this episode will come out to Bob Moss's. Oh, I love that. So on the evening of October 19th 2010, 300 guests gathered near a lake in the hills outside of Mumbai under a full moon. This sounds

incredible. It sounds amazing. I know this event happened 11 years ago, but I want to go. I know. Annie was dressed in an emerald green traditional sari covered in gold brocade. Her hands and feet were adorned with henna, and she rode toward the altar in a golden chair held up on the shoulders of her brother, her uncle, and her cousins. Her groom, dressed in a traditional wedding suit with green accents to match, was there waiting for her. The ceremony went off without a hitch and the beautiful couple was married.

They planned to have a civil ceremony in London in 2011 for all of their friends and family who hadn't been able to make the trip to India. But sadly, that would never happen because tragedy would strike the young newlyweds on their honeymoon and only one of them would survive. Shreyan had planned a luxurious honeymoon for his new bride, but he wanted there to be a surprise. Annie's sister recalls joking with her about it after the wedding. She recalled that Annie couldn't wait to find out where she would be going. Some articles say that when Annie did find out, she wasn't thrilled. It wasn't on her list of approved places but according to Shrian he and Annie were both super excited to head to South Africa for a

couple of weeks to celebrate their new marriage hell yeah yeah Dottie's excited Dottie's very excited do you know where in South Africa they were gonna go they went to a couple different places no oh so I need to keep my pants on. That's right. All right. I will. Keep your fucking pants on. They left Bristol in early November and spent four days game watching in Kruger National

Park before flying from Johannesburg to Cape Town. The couple arrived in Cape Town on Friday, November 12th, exhilarated but exhausted. They just wanted to get to their hotel and get settled in, so they looked for a taxi and quickly caught the attention of a man driving a Volkswagen minivan. His name was Zala Tongo. When Zala dropped them off at their hotel, Shrian made arrangements with him for him to pick them up for dinner the next night. The next day, Annie and Shrian spent the day at the hotel. They lounged by the pool. They took selfies.

Just, you know, a general looking in love type of atmosphere. You know, the typical honeymoon stuff. And then that night, they dressed for dinner and waited for Zala Tongo to pick them up. The concierge at their hotel had made them reservations at 96 Winery Road, a well-known upscale restaurant in the Helderberg Valley, about 30 miles east of Cape Town. But Zala was late to pick them up, and they were afraid they'd miss their reservation. And as they had, like, gotten the car with him, they told him that they weren't really sure that they wanted a big meal anyway. So they asked Zala for suggestions and he said he knew just the place.

The Surfside restaurant in the resort town of Strand would be perfect. It had kind of this like Asian fusion flair and Shreyan and Annie thought it sounded perfect. So they made the 30 mile drive, dined on curry and sushi. They walked along the beach and then around 10, 15, they got back in Zala's minivan to head back to their hotel in Cape Town. Along the way, according to Shreyan, the couple chatted with Zala, and Annie said that the area the hotel was in was nice, but it reminded her too much of where she grew up in Sweden. She said it seemed clean and safe, but a bit sterile. She told Zala that she wanted to see, quote, the real Africa. Zala that she wanted to see, quote, the real Africa.

Zala agreed to show them and exited the highway in Gugulethu. You know what would never happen? What? I just think it's so weird when people do that. Like, if somebody came to Kansas City and we took them to, like, the Country Club Plaza, no one would be like, you know what? I really just want to see the real North America. Yeah. The real North America.

Yes, exactly. So this area, Gugulethu, according to The Guardian, is popular with tourists during the day. Guardian is popular with tourists during the day, but like every restaurant and shop closes at 7 p.m. because the area has been deemed too dangerous after dark as it has really high crime rates. Okay. It was just after they had turned down Gugulethu's main street, which was deserted at this time of night. It's like 11 o'clock at night. That disaster struck. The minivan came to a rest at a stop sign,

as Zala pointed out, a nearby church and a school. But when Shrian looked up, there was a man hammering on the windshield with a pistol. He was hitting it so hard that Shrein was sure the glass would break. Before he knew it, the man was in the car. He shoved Zolotango into the passenger seat and took the wheel. Then another man with a gun entered the back of the van with Shrein and Annie. The minivan then peeled out, the carjacker driving it further into the area known as Cape Flats.

Around midnight that same night, a man found a very distressed Shreyan wandering in the street a few miles from where the carjacking had taken place. The police were called and Shreyan relayed to him that he and his wife had been carjacked while riding in a cab and that they'd been held at gunpoint for some time before Shrean was kicked out of the van. The carjacker still had Annie, though, and he had no idea where they were. Oh, my God. He went on to explain how he'd met Zala Tongo on their first night in Cape Town, and he'd introduced himself as this executive tour guide. Shrian told police that Zala had helped him exchange some money into local currency, and then he was supposed to help him organize like a private helicopter flight for Annie and him, like on one of their nights there.

And he said he had essentially agreed to be their tour guide while they were in Cape Town. That evening he'd taken them to dinner and then on the way back he'd agreed to take them on a tour of the area. Are you about to say this was just some random guy? Am I? Oh my god. Shrean told the police that the whole thing started almost immediately after exiting the highway. And this is a quote of what he told the police that night. He said, the next thing I remember was banging noises coming from the front and right hand side of the car. There was a lot of shouting and a language I did not understand. The next thing I recall is somebody next to me who told me to lie

down. The person had a gun in his hand. He was waving the gun in the air. He shouted, look down, lie down. We were both terrified and we immediately complied with his demands. I was lying half on top of Annie. Another person was behind the steering wheel. He then went on to say that one of the men took his phone and put the gun to his head, and he told them not to lie or he would shoot him. As this was happening, according to Shrian, they were still driving. The car was moving. It was like turning, and they would come to a stop, and then they pulled off onto a small road,

came to a stop, and they ordered off onto a small road, came to a stop and they ordered Shran to get out of the car. As he was like getting out, he said, I have to take Annie with me. And they said, no, we'll take her to the police station. And he refused to get out without Annie. And they told him if he didn't get out, they would shoot him.

Oh my God. He told the police at get out, they would shoot him. Oh, my God. He told the police at that point he tried to open the door, but it wouldn't open. There was like a child protection lock on. And so they rolled the window down and pushed him out of the window. He said, I recall hitting the ground and the car speeding away. The last thing I said to Annie was to be quiet and not say anything. I said that to her in Gujarati. He told the police that was the last time he saw Annie

and that he had no idea where the car went after he got out. All he knew was that there were two men with a gun who still had Annie. Oh. That night, Vinod Hindoccia received a late-night phone call in Sweden from Prakash Dhawani. He said he'd just spoken to Shreyan. Annie's been kidnapped, he said. Vinod tried to stay calm initially. He told Prakash, don't worry.

We'll sort this all out. We'll go to South Africa. We'll pay them whatever they want. We'll get her back. A few minutes later, the phone rang again. This time it was Shrian. He was back at the hotel and he said to Vinod, dad. And he started crying.

And he said, I couldn't take care of your daughter. This is like a promise that he had made to him on their wedding day. Yeah. Vinod started crying and he said, don't say those words. Why are you saying you could not? And he just repeated, I could not take care of her. And Vinod said, take it easy. Calm down. I'm on my way there. there. The next morning, Vinod got up and he got on a flight to Amsterdam. So the plan was for him to fly to Amsterdam and for Prakash to fly to Amsterdam and then together they would fly to South Africa. Okay. So Vinod gets to Amsterdam and he turned on his phone, like hoping for an update,

like from the time that he was on the flight. He turns his phone on and he's so frantic that he couldn't remember the security code to unlock his phone. And so he found a pay phone and he called home to check for an update. When his wife, Nilam, answered the phone, she was sobbing. Ugh. When his wife, Nilam, answered the phone, she was sobbing. Ugh. Vinod said he knew immediately what that meant, and he just sank to the floor. He then learned that the minivan had been found and that Annie's body was inside.

She had died of a single gunshot wound to the neck. The van had just been abandoned on the side of the road and the reason it was even investigated, we'll say, is because Annie had lost so much blood from the gunshot wound that it had pooled on the floorboards

of the car and started to seep out of the gap in the door onto the cement wow so now like vanad's in the airport in amsterdam just sobbing he's just found out his daughter is dead so he goes and he meets perkesh and they get on the flight to Cape Town. And these men did not have a very close relationship. Right. But when they saw each other in the airport, they embraced.

And Vinod just sobbed. And Prakash told him, you know, everything's going to be OK. We're going to figure this out. And then they got on the flight. Yeah. To Cape Town. Vinod said he cried the entire flight and Prakash did everything he could to console him.

Oh, my gosh. I can't imagine getting on a plane in that state of mind. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When they arrived in Cape Town, they went to Cape Grace, which is the hotel that Shreyan and Annie had been staying at. Shreyan was still there. Vinod went up to Shreyan and he hugged him.

And he thought that Shreyan acted a little odd, kind of standoffish, but he brushed it off and he was like, you know, I'm so emotional that I'm probably just misreading his reaction. That day they dealt with the police some and then the following day Vinod told Shreyan that he was going to go to the morgue to see Annie. And Shreem was like, you can't do that. She lost too much blood. Her body has been drained, essentially. We need to give them time to essentially, like, embalm her so that she looks like you would expect her to look. And Vinod thought this comment was really weird.

He thought it was really cold, a really weird thing for Shreyan to say, but he agreed and was like, okay, I'll wait until you say it's okay for us to go. Right. And that day they kept themselves busy working on funeral arrangements, talking to people back in Sweden and Bristol and London. And, you know, they stayed busy all day. The next day, Vinod was like, OK, I'm going to the morgue today. Do you want to come with me to Shreyan?

And Shreyan said, I can't come today. And Vinod was like. Were you busy? Yeah. And so Vinod at first was like, OK, he just he wants time to himself. He's still grieving. But then he found out that like Shrean went and got a haircut that day. He went and bought a suit like super weird. But Vinod like just was so emotional.

He didn't have time to worry about that. He was completely focused on seeing Annie finally. And so that day he was escorted to the morgue where he was asked to identify his daughter. When he got there, he kissed Annie on the forehead and he held her and whispered, Papa's here. Papa's here. Over and over. And just cried while he held her.

Yeah. Within a day or two, Vinod, Prakash, and Shreyan were all on a plane back to the UK with Annie's body. They'd made the arrangements. They'd hold her funeral in London. And 1,500 people attended her funeral.

Wow. Meanwhile, a murder investigation was underway back in South Africa. Three days after Annie's body was found, 26-year-old Kalile Ngeni was arrested and charged with murder, aggravated robbery, and kidnapping after his palm print was found in the minivan. A few days later, police arrested Zala Tonga. He had been assisting in the investigation up to that point. Oh, God. And then a tip from an informant led the police to MZ Wamadota Guabe. And both Zala Tonga and MZ Wamadota Kwabe were charged with murder, aggravated robbery, and kidnapping.

So as I said, Zala was initially involved in the investigation. Like, Shrein had his name, his phone number, and so he turned that over to police, and he helped. He was like, yes, I was carjacked as well. I was forced out of the car. It was horrifying and scary. And then, like, his story started to fall apart a little bit. And when the police, like, pushed back a bit, when his facts weren't matching up.

Right. He admitted that he was involved. Oh, shit. So the three men initially told police that the plan was to pull off this robbery. Zola had targeted Annie and Shreyan from the moment he saw them at the airport. They had fancy luggage. It was no accident that he had come over to them. But this was just supposed to be a robbery.

And it went wrong. And that Annie was accidentally shot during a struggle for her handbag. Really? Mm-hmm. I mean, three dudes couldn't get one woman's handbag away from her without killing her? So a fourth man was later tied to this whole plot. His name was Monde Mblombo. And he was arrested and he had like,

they believed he had organized the whole thing, but he wasn't present when the robbery took place. He was a concierge at another hotel, and he had been at the hotel while this all went down. So that's the initial story that all these men tell the police.

They later changed that story and made a shocking relevation. And made a. Relevation? It was shocking when they broke into that dance. They made a shocking revelation to the police as it turns out. The whole thing had been a hit. Yeah. Ordered by Sri and Di a hit. Yeah.

Ordered by Shreyan Diwani. Yeah. Zala told police that he had met Shreyan and was offered 15,000 rand, approximately $2,000. I was going to say, that's not much at all. By Shreyan to kill Annie. According to Zala, he then called up a couple friends about arranging a hitman. And that's when he was put in touch with Kalile and MZ Wamadota.

And they had all carried out the carjacking as a cover for this hit that Shreyan had taken out. This came as a shock to Annie's family and to Shreyan's family. Well, yeah, why did he do this? Yeah, why did he do this? Well, that's what I'm waiting on you

to tell me. But further investigation into the couple revealed that even though they appeared happy on their honeymoon, that wasn't the full story. Emails were found that Annie had sent to Shrean and the two had been arguing a lot in the days leading up to their honeymoon. So? in the days leading up to their honeymoon. So? Shrian was unhappy with Annie's spending habits, but it didn't seem to go that much farther than that. But in one of them, Annie said that she was unhappy

and wanted to pack her bags and leave. But that still didn't explain why Shrian would want Annie dead. A lot of people don't have as much fun as they want to have on their honeymoon. Exactly. I mean, like, that's pretty normal. But then police made a discovery. Another releve. Shrian had led a secret life.

He was a bisexual. What? Oh, shit. Oh, here we go. Okay. he was a bisexual oh shit here we go okay it came out that Shreyan had used the services of male prostitutes and that he'd

been using some gay websites and that you know he'd even visited those gay websites while he was on his honeymoon. He said that he was a bisexual and that he loved his wife and he did not want his marriage to end. And he denied having any involvement in Annie's murder. Are they trying to say because he's bi he did this?

That's correct. That's the official theory. Oh, my God. Yep. There we go. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's the scariest thing is that all bi people are murderers.

That is. It's very scary. Yes. Yeah. So that's the official take on it is that Annie figured out that he was a secret bisexual. Yep. And so then he had to kill her. And he did so by arranging a hit with the first person he met in Cape Town.

That's lucky. Mm-hmm. And that he paid him $2,000. Well, he had to keep the rest of his money for all the gay sex he was going to pay for. All the gay sex he was paying for. Yeah, absolutely. Duh. Use your head, Brandy.

Yep. Mm hmm. So police in the UK arrested Shrian at the request of South African authorities on suspicion of conspiracy to commit murder. Shrian obviously denied that he was involved in any way, but this thing made huge news. South Africans were pissed because there was this belief in South Africa that this man had specifically brought his wife

to South Africa to carry this out and use the country's high crime rate as a way to cover it up. Well, yeah, that would piss you off. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And Annie's family was very upset. They couldn't believe that Shrian had lied to them, had lied to Annie.

They pretty much made up their minds right away that Shrian had for sure done it. But Shrian would fight extradition to South Africa. Sure. And that fight would be a lengthy legal process, like almost five years. Okay. In the meantime, the other four men would have their days in court. The Guardian had a nice little explanation about how South African court works, so I'm going to share that now. This is what The Guardian says.

There are no juries in South Africa. Given the country's traumatic racial history, many believe the notion of an individual being fairly tried by its peers is not yet realistic. Oh. Yeah. Okay. The majority of criminal cases are dealt with by the district court. More serious offenses go to the regional court, which is

presided over by a magistrate. High profile cases, such as this one, are usually transferred to high court. Here the case is heard by one judge who nominates two lay assessors, usually prominent members of the public, to help with issues of fact, not law.

Hmm. So this trial, all of the different parts of it were held in high court. So this started out with offering up some plea bargains. Both Mziwamadodo Kw, and Zala Tongo were offered reduced sentences in exchange for guilty pleas and the promise to deliver truthful testimony against Sri and Diwani. Oh, shit. So they took these deals and Zala was the first to be sentenced. Zala was the first to be sentenced. So he had appeared in Western Cape High Court on December 7th, 2010. And under his plea deal, he pleaded guilty to armed robbery, kidnapping, and the murder of Annie Dewani. In return for this plea agreement, he was given 18 years in prison.

The next to go to court was Mziwamadodo Kwabe, and he was kind of the same thing. He was given this deal. He was sentenced to a little bit more because they thought he was more involved in the actual shooting, likely, than Zolotongo had been. And so he was given 25 years. And again, this was contingent on him testifying truthfully for future legal proceedings relating to the case. The third conspirator, Monde Mblobo, he was the guy who was like the concierge who kind of organized the whole thing. He was given immunity. What? Yes, because they didn't believe that he was actually present at.

But they thought he was the mastermind. Uh-huh. And if you're the mastermind, this is not the first time you've done this shit. Yeah. Mm-hmm. So he was granted full immunity in exchange for his promise of truthful testimony against Shreya and Diwani. The only one not to take a deal was Khalila M. Gheni. So he went to trial.

And it didn't go well. It did not go well. So the other three men testified against him. It was kind of a shit show. They all contradicted each other. It looked really questionable. The case didn't really match the evidence real well. There was still an argument of who fired the gun, and they were trying to pin it on Kalila

Mgeni. Anyway, I don't know. He ended up being found guilty. The court decided to just believe the weird testimony between the other people, although they did threaten charging them with perjury because it seemed like maybe their stories weren't great. Yeah, it was bad. It was really bad. But he ended up being found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. Okay. Because he didn't take the deal.

Yeah. So those three, those really four people were all dealt with. But back in the United Kingdom, the extradition proceedings were still going on. So Shreyan was dealing with a lot of mental illness at this time. He kept being like committed to a mental health facility he was yeah like going through terrible bouts of depression and ptsd and stress and the press was like tearing him apart they believed he was making it all up but like um his wife had been murdered on his honeymoon and if you don't believe that he had anything to do with it. Yeah.

Then that's horribly fucking traumatic. Absolutely. Finally, in April of 2014, his extradition was ordered from the United Kingdom to South Africa. He arrived there on April 7th, and upon his arrival, he was arrested, charged, and ordered to stand trial for allegedly arranging the murder of his wife. He was charged with five offenses, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, robbery with aggravating circumstances, murder, kidnapping, and obstructing the administration of justice. He pled not guilty to all charges. His trial finally began on October 6th, 2014. So this is interesting. This trial went off differently than trials typically do in that the defense was allowed to make an opening statement before anything else was said. And in that statement, Shrein talked about how, yes, he was a bisexual.

Yes, he'd had these affairs with these other men. But no, he had not killed his wife. Yeah, these are different things. Or ordered the murder of his wife. There was some talk about how there were these phone calls between him and Zala, and there was some closed-circuit TV footage of him meeting with him, and they had explanations for all of it. He had helped him exchange currency.

He had asked him to set up a helicopter flight. He'd asked him to be their private tour guide for their time in Cape Town. Oh, God. Shrian's lawyer put forward two possible versions of what had happened to lead to Annie's death. The first was that it was a robbery gone wrong, which is what the four men said from the beginning. The court heard that there was forensic evidence which indicated that Annie may have been shot by accident as one of the hijackers tried to take her handbag. There was like there was some bruising on her leg. That made it seem like someone had grabbed her. And that she'd like turned away from them.

And then the trajectory of the bullet. Really showed that she'd been like leaned forward. And like pulling away. So this. This makes a lot of sense. Yeah. The second. Was that this was like a bungled. like kidnap for ransom type of deal.

The reason they'd let Shrein go was that they were then supposed to hold Annie and request ransom. But again, you know, something had happened, something had gone wrong and Annie had accidentally been shot and killed. That's really what the evidence showed. This wasn't like, like she was shot like at close range, but at a super odd angle. Okay. And so it seems like, yeah, this was the gun accidentally went off. This wasn't, they didn't intend to kill her at that moment. Right. It seems.

From there, the prosecution put up their case and they said that Shrein had a secret life, one that involved men. He loved banging dudes and he just wanted a way out of his marriage. so this is really interesting so then they plan to call like a sex worker that claimed that he'd had sex with shreyan at some point during his relationship with annie and the judge shut that shit down really the judge was like nope he's already admitted that he was a bisexual and that he had sex with men and we're done with that part of the trial. Wow. Yeah. All right. Yes. Finally. Absolutely. Then the prosecution had to move on.

And side note here, the prosecutor's name. Okay. What you got, Brandy? I am sure that it is not pronounced this way. But his name is Rodney DeCock. Rod DeCock. Rodney de Kock. Rod de Kock.

I imagine the last name is probably pronounced K-O-C-K because it's, I assume, South African. But I'm just saying, Rodney de Kock. Do with that what you will. Are you listening, Robertina? So the prosecution is talking about how this was a staged hijacking, a staged carjacking, all set up by Shreyan. So Zala took the stand. Kalila Mgeni took the stand. Mziwamadodo Kwabe took the stand.

But just as it had happened in the previous trial where they'd all testified. Their testimony was so convoluted. They contradicted each other left and right. Like it was a fucking mess. The defense was able to like point out any time that there was, you know, something that contradicted. Yeah. The facts that they knew. Finally, when the prosecution rested, the defense filed a motion for the case to be dismissed. Yeah.

They were like, none of this makes any sense. These people are lying. And the judge took it under consideration. And the judge took it under consideration. And the judge agreed. Wow. Yeah. All right. Yep. The judge said that it was for the prosecution to prove that Shrean had entered into an agreement with the three other men to have Annie killed and that the prosecution failed to meet that threshold.

Yeah. Annie killed and that the prosecution failed to meet that threshold. Yeah. The judge, her name was Jeanette Traverso, said that Zala was the only person who could connect Shrein to the other people who'd been convicted in the case. There was no connection from Shrein to any of them. So without Zala, the story completely falls apart. And it didn't make any sense at the end of the day. He hires the very first person he's met in Cape Town to murder his wife. Yeah.

No. And again, there's no motive for it. No motive at all. The judge went on to say that all of these men were telling the story, the stories that they were telling, because they had been given less prison time. And that had to be taken into consideration. She said their testimony had to be treated with caution and that corroboration was necessary. She said that details such as where they were picked up and dropped off didn't match in the different versions of the stories. She said that the testimony of the three

men was riddled with inconsistencies and was so improbable with so many mistakes, lies, and inconsistencies that you couldn't see where the lies ended and the truth began. The judge told the court that the evidence meant to connect Shrein to Annie's murder was so poor that only a confession by Shrerian could have led to a conviction. The judge then ruled that it was not necessary for Shrian to put up any evidence or put up any kind of defense. The charges against Shrian Dewani were then dropped, and he was free to go. Wow. He returned to the U.K., where he still lives today.

Oh, my God, that poor man. Annie's family, the Hindoshas. Do they still think that he did it? They were devastated by this ruling. Oh. Outside the court, her sister Ami addressed the media, and this is what she said. Today, we feel as a family that the justice system has failed us, and we are deeply disappointed. We came here looking for answers, and we came here looking for the truth, and all we got was more questions. We waited patiently for years

to hear what happened to Annie and to hear the full story of what happened to our dearest little sister. All we wanted was to hear all the events and the hope of actually finding that out has kept us as a family going. Unfortunately, we believe that this right has now been taken away from us. I mean, yeah, you do want to know the whole story. Of course you do. Of course you do. Annie's uncle, Ashok Hindosha, made like an official statement for the family following this, like as a family spokesperson.

He said, we would have preferred to have known about his sexuality before he married our precious Annie. She gave herself to him, mind, body and soul, and she hoped to have been cherished and loved. But she would not have married him if she had known about his secret sex life with male prostitutes and the activities he engaged in. I just, I don't agree with that. I think you never know what's going on inside of relationships. I think it's very possible she do.

But I think as a family, they're looking for somewhere to place blame. And I think, yeah. I mean, maybe she wouldn't have married him. Maybe she wouldn't have. Yeah. But again, it's like it doesn't have anything to do with her murder. It doesn't have anything to do. I agree.

I agree. According to Annie's family, Shrean has never reached out to tell them everything he knows about what has happened to Annie. They said, I think he has. Yeah. Like this. They don't believe at least at this point when these statements were made. Yeah. They didn't believe the stories that he was telling.

Annie's father said, we still do not have the whole story of how it happened. We wanted to hear Shrein tell the court in his words. He was her husband. He was there. His lawyers repeated the word. My client will tell the court during his trial like a mantra. But then the judge ended the case without Shereen going into the witness box. We never got an opportunity to hear what he had to say. My family would like to talk to him. If he has any respect respect for us then he should come see us and talk to us after all i am still his father-in-law and i gave him my daughter he must help us following this when shreyan returned to the uk like his house was vandalized. Somebody put like a get out of jail free card on his property.

They like paintballed his driveway. It appears that the Hinducha's opinion on Shrian has changed as far as his guilt in being involved in this in any way. Because in August of 2018, Annie's uncle, again acting as a spokesperson for the family, made another statement and said, We accept that he did not murder Annie, but he lied to us and he had a very secret gay life. He owes us an apology for his lies. This statement was made in response to, in 2018, Shrein was known to be living in bristol still and he was living with a boyfriend who i believe he's still living with at this time kalila mgenny died in prison in 2014 he had an inoperable brain tumor i guess he filed for like a compassionate release type of deal and it was denied and he remained in prison at the time of his death. Zala Tongo is eligible for parole

and he filed for parole and something happened as recently as like 2019. His parole was initially granted and then like the day he was supposed to be released from prison it was revoked. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God. And that's the story of a horrible honeymoon. That was terrible.

Yeah. I think that Shreyan didn't have anything to do with it. It doesn't make any sense. And that's one of the things he said later is like, if I wanted her dead,

why would I have married her? Why would I have gone through all of that? Yeah. No, I loved her. Yeah. Yeah, it's real difficult when they lock in

on that secret gay stuff. She's bisexual. She's always killing people. Always. And those are the facts. I wish I could disagree. Okay, everyone, we are kicking it into high gear here because we've got to do a Zoom call with our patrons at the $7 level and the $10 level.

Yeah, that's right. So we're going to, what, hit a couple questions from the Discord? We're going to take some questions from the Discord. We're going to do some Supreme Court inductions, and then we're going to boogity boogity. Yeah, and then we're going to get the fuck out of here. Is that what boogity boogity means? That's exactly what it means. And if you want to join in on the fun of these Zoom calls, you've got to sign up for our Patreon.

Oh, fuck, we haven't talked about the Patreon one bit on this fucking episode. Let me do it right here. You do it. Hit it. At the $7 level or higher. Hit it. Hit it. Excuse me.

You get on these Zoom calls. You get a monthly bonus. Did I throw you off? You did. You get a monthly bonus episode. You get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. You get a monthly bonus episode. You get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. You get a sticker.

You get a card with our autographs. You get inducted at the end of the podcast. And at the $10 level, you get all that plus episodes a day early,

ad free, and you get 10% off merch. Woo! Mm-mm-mm. Oh, now this question's not directed at you, but this is for you. Okay. Because I know your story. What?

Adjusted for Inflation asks, as I'm currently sitting on a plane, what's your best, I can't believe this happened, at an airport or airplane story? Oh, no. Everybody. Oh, no. Everybody. Oh, my God. One time, Norman and I were on a plane. And a man shit himself. It was horrible. Because, you know, it's just recycled air.

Yeah. You're just getting poo air just recycled. And if I remember correctly, right, he did nothing to remedy the situation. Well, what are you going to do? I mean, I don't know what you're going to do. I guess that's a fair question. What did I expect this man to do? Because, I mean, do you get up and reveal to the entire plane your poo pants?

I don't. Do you think you had a diaper on? No, I don't. Okay. Okay. Because usually a diaper can trap in some odors. Yeah. The odors were not trapped.

The odors were not trapped. The odors were flapping. Mm-hmm. Oh, DP is my spirit animal and wants to know, Brandy, have you considered branching out to include charcoal gray in your wardrobe? I will have you know that I did just purchase a charcoal gray sweater, and it looks quite good. Wow. Mm-hmm. Also, last, I don't know, a couple weeks ago, I wore a navy blue shirt.

Things are getting wild around here. But it is the summertime, and so she busts out the charcoal gray and the navy. Hot asthmatic Subaru cat owner says, please tell me what to get from Costco. I just started going, and I need you to tell me your ways. Oh, my Lord, you have come to the right place. Tell me your ways. Oh, my Lord, you have come to the right place. Although I can't imagine walking into a Costco and not knowing what to do. I mean, that is a brag.

I mean, listen, Hint Water's great. They've got just a shit ton of Hint Waters. You've got to get the Hint Water. I'm very into Hint Water these days. It's basically my obsession. You like raspberries? Get yourself a fuck ton of them. I'm just telling them what I always do.

Seeds. The seeds. I can't handle the seeds. The dog treats. Yeah. I've not tasted them myself, but the dogs are thrilled. Quite fond of them. What else?

I mean, you really can't go wrong. There's so much great stuff. We just went in London, got two new books. It's very exciting. One of them is Mr. Brown Can Moo, which is Dr. Seuss classic. Only this one, like when it's telling you all the things Mr. Brown can do, there's a button to push and it makes that noise. That sounds annoying. She fucking loves it.

Well, good for her. Moose inside, moose outside wants to know what's the worst thing you've ever tasted? Mine would have to be canned cat food. The texture was almost

more disgusting than the taste and I will never shake a can to get the food out again. Just like a... Yeah, okay food out again. Just like a. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Vegemite.

Vegemite? Yeah. It's the worst thing I've ever tasted. Popcorn salad. You might be right. I'm definitely right. Yeah. I didn't puke after the Vegemite and I puked after the popcorn salad.

So. Yeah. That was a terrible day for us both. It was. Mm-hmm. That was a terrible day for us both. Mm-hmm. It was.

Mm-hmm. Spooky Butthole says, what would be the most disappointing filling for a donut? Inspired by today when I thought I bought lemon donuts for my grandma, but they were raspberry filled and she said she would rather eat dirt filled donuts. Same. You've got a very honest grandma. You know, that's Norman's favorite thing about old ladies. They're just very blunt. He respects that.

The fuck is that? Three panel judge wants to know, did you see the new pre-made nut crust? That sounds made up. What is it? What's a nutcrust? It's like a pie crust made of nuts, right? Are you sure? No, I'm not.

Sounds like something that's in a dirty pair of undies. Okay. Okay. Disgusting. Making entry into the Discord wants to know what's your favorite dinosaur you have a favorite dinosaur is it boring to say t-rex no that's a good one i like the little ones that look like you could be friends with them like the ones that travel like in a little herd i don't know what they're called no yeah i like those little ones no i like the ones where you go into a museum and they've got all the bones.

And then you're just like, oh! We're thinking about this in two different ways. You are thinking about what you can go to a museum and see. I am thinking about when I get to go to Jurassic Park, which exhibit I'm going to go to. Well, I mean, yeah, obviously I would be terrified to see a real T-Rex in the flesh. Because that's a good point.

Well, this question needed to be more clear, I think. That's right. Left a lot of room to interpretation. It did. Because give me the fuck away if we're talking about

a real live T-Rex. I want to go to that. It did. Because give me the fuck away if we're talking about a real live T-Rex. I want to go to that. Okay. It's the... Okay. In Jurassic World, which I'm guessing you've never seen.

Nope. In that version of Jurassic Park, the park is open and there are people there visiting. And they have this chakras.

It is not enough! There's this giant alligator like dinosaur. But it's fucking huge. And there's like a SeaWorld style show that you get to go to. And that's my first stop

when I go to Jurassic Park. Okay, well I think we have to wrap up here. Because I don't want to hear any more about this. Everyone, this week we are continuing to read your names and your favorite cookies. I'm not at all where I need to be in life or in this document.

Madison R. Warm chocolate chip. Sarah K. Maple cream cookies. I'd be willing to try that. Anna May. Gooey chocolate chip. Caitlin Wetzel.

Peanut butter chocolate chunk. Amanda Ray. White chocolate coconut cookies. Interesting. Not a fan of white chocolate White Chocolate Coconut Cookies. Interesting. Not a fan of white chocolate. Big fan of coconut. Jen. Raspberry Cheesecake.

Megan Spilling. Tagalong Girl Scout Cookies. Emery. Chocolate Chip. Rainisha. White Chocolate Raspberry Cookies. Oh, that's like everything you hate. I'm not eating that cookie.

I realize Rainisha has an offer for me. She's not offering you hate. I'm not eating that cookie. I realize Rainey, she hasn't eaten it. She's not offering you one bit. Morgan. My grandfather's famous what? Schnurping flurps. Just kidding, cookie dough. Oh, you. Morgan, how dare you.

My grandfather's famous schnurping flurps. Schnurping flutes. Schnurping flutes. We're going to need to make up a recipe for schnurping flutes. Very good, Morgan. That was excellent. Ashley LaCourse. Peanut butter cookies. Emily Finch.

Butterscotch brown butter chocolate chips straight out of the oven and still a little gooey in the middle. Bam. Bam. Like him or her. Mags. Bags. Oreo double stuff. Too much stuff.

Cora Kepin. M&M cookies. Alexandra Shea. Vanilla sugar Wafers. Oh, come on, Alexandra. Come on. I can show you. Skylar Johnson.

Cranberry Winter Cookies. I don't know. I don't think I want any cranberries in my cookies. Aren't we just telling people? They're wrong. Yeah. Cat Conley. Nut Kalash.

It's Kalash. Either way, she loves it. Stephanie Workus. Girl Scout Tagalongs. Rebecca Zaney. I don't have a favorite cookie, but I'd love to hear you two take a stab at pronouncing my last name. Do you think it's Zania or Zane? Do you think she's real Zaney? Zania. Zania. That's probably it. Z-A-I-N-E-A. We got it, Rebecca. You know, you know one of those was right. Yeah. Zania. Zania. Zania. Zania. There you go. If that's

not how you pronounce it, you got to just change it to that right now. You've got to change it. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen.

And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the book Notorious 92, Indiana's Most Heinous Murders in All 92 Counties by Andrew E. Stoner, reporting by Tim Evans in the Indianapolis Star, plus a ton of old-timey articles from newspapers.com. I got my info from an article for The Atavist magazine by Joshua Hammer, chillingcrimes.com, The Guardian, bbc.com, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read. Their stuff.