Let's Go To Court! - 193: An Anniversary Getaway & the Lynching of Timothy Coggins

Episode Date: October 27, 2021

Harold Henthorn loved a good surprise. So when he began planning a surprise anniversary trip for his wife, Toni, he pulled out all the stops. He asked her office staff to clear her schedule. He packed her suitcase. Then, on what was supposed to be a typical workday, Harold gave Toni the good news: They’d be going on a romantic trip to Estes Park, Colorado, to celebrate their 12th anniversary. They’d leave right away. But Harold had more than a surprise trip up his sleeve.  Then Kristin tells us about the lynching of Timothy Coggins. Timothy’s murder was heartbreaking, but it wasn’t exactly a whodunit. In fact, within a few weeks, two black officers were closing in on Timothy’s murderers. But the higher-ups in the local police force put a stop to the investigation. They’d hit a dead end... supposedly. For 34 years, the case went cold. Then a young agent from the Georgia Bureau of Investigations gave the case a closer look. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “A brutal lynching. An indifferent police force. A 34-year wait for justice.” by Wesley Lowery for GQ “In the cold dark night” episode of 20/20 “The hate crime solved after 34 years,” by Natasha Frost for History.com “Two indicted in 1983 Georgia killing,” by Nelson Helm for the Atlanta Journal Constitution “Five things to know about the Spalding trial in the murder of man dragged behind pick up truck,” by Christian Boone for the Atlanta Journal Constitution In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Over the Edge” episode Dateline  “Harold Henthorn” chillingcrimes.com “Black Widower: How One Man Allegedly Murdered Two Wives” by Caleb Hannan, Rolling Stone “Harold Henthorn’s wife died in a freak accident. When his second wife died police had questions.” by Gemma Bath, MamaMia “The unusual deaths of the two Mrs. Henthorns” CBS News “Tip leads reporter to story of mysterious deaths” CBS News “‘Lethal love’: Harold Henthorn had two wives. Both died in bizarre, brutal ways.” by Michael E. Miller, The Washington Post “United States of America v. Harold Arthur Henthorn” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the lynching of Timothy Coggins. And I'll be talking about a romantic anniversary getaway. False. You will not.

Are you on a theme right now? Who am I on a theme right now? Oh, you son of a gun. She's done it again. Yeah. Are you on like horrible honeymoons? Well, this is our anniversary getaway. Okay, but how is that not a new show on ID?

Horrible honeymoons. It probably is. I mean, if anyone's listening. It probably is. Literally anyone is listening. Is anyone out there? anyone's listening. It probably is.

Literally anyone's listening. Is anyone out there? We've been trapped in this room for some time now. We've been trapped in it for days. It does feel like that because we've recorded two episodes this week.

Yeah. A day and a half ago. Yeah, we recorded the bonus episode. And we both cried. Yep. True. Those are the facts.

I covered the worst drunk driving crash in U.S. history. Yeah, and it was horrible. Surprisingly horrible. Yeah. You think it's gonna be fun? No, it's not. It wasn't fun at all. That was the first time we both cried in an episode in a long time.

A really long time, yeah. And if you'd like to hear it, sign up for our Patreon. Yep, at the $5 level you get that episode plus, what, 27 more? 27 other bonus episodes. Plus all kinds

of other stuff. Just like shit on shit on shit. Like good shit. No, shit sandwich makes it sound bad. Well, you were layering it. It's really on you. Good shit on top of Like good shit. No, shit sandwich makes it sound bad. Well, you were layering it. It's really on you. Good shit on top of other good shit. Okay.

You know, just let's just say it like in a random order. You can get 10% off merch at one of the levels. You could get inducted on this podcast. You could get ad-free episodes a day early. You can get in the Discord. I don't like your use of the word could because it makes it sound like enter this raffle and three of you. No, all of those things are available at different levels on our Patreon is what I am saying. That's what I am here to tell you today.

I am so full of iced tea right now. I know. Everyone, Brandy. Like sloshing in my eyeballs. Brandy was over served. I was over full of iced tea right now. I know. Everyone, Brandy sloshing in my eyeballs. Brandy was over-served. I was over-served on iced tea. This place had the best fucking iced tea. And I hit it

hard. Mommy's day out. She's drinking three iced teas. Were they spiked? No. This was just your standard iced tea. I did get sweet tea. Uh-huh.

Yeah. And it was delicious. I like how you're trying to downplay it. It's just your standard iced tea. When like three times you leaned over at lunch, you were like, this is really good iced tea. I wanted to ask him if I could get one to go.

You should have. I thought I had had enough iced tea at that point. You were ashamed. I was. Of your tea at that point You were ashamed I was Of your level of consumption I know I was Already he'd had to come up and be like I'll go get some more teas Didn't realize you were a human sponge

Yeah, alright That's fine Alright, tell me about some poor sad couple. I can't. I have to do something else first. I have another thing on the agenda. Oh. I have to issue an apology and a correction.

Oh, because you were wrong and I was right about something? No. Oh, damn it. I was really open. The apology is not to you. The apology is... Could you apologize to me anyway? What would you like me to apologize for?

General Misty. I'm sorry that I drank so much iced tea at lunch today. You know, we were going tit for tat on that iced tea. It's just that you are not. I'm not used to ingesting that much. Me, I'm all liquids all the time. You are all liquids all the time. Standard person,

70% water, not you. Nope. I'm clocking in about 90. Okay. So my father texted me this morning.

And I committed a grave error on last week's episode. Oh, boy. If you'll recall, I mentioned how my dad and my mom

worked at Venture. Yes. A store you had never heard of. Yeah. You said he worked in the shoe area? Mm-hmm. And boy, was I wrong. He texted me this morning and he said, wrong.

Excellent. As it turns out, he worked in the toy department and in the hardware department. And my mom was the one who worked in shoes. Well, Brandy, the thing about this podcast is we strive to be accurate, okay? And you've committed a grave error. Well, I assume that everybody has already written this down in their 10 Pounds Fun Fact Journal. I hope you weren't using pens. No kidding.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you fucked up big time. I did. So my sincerest apologies to my father. Your mother evidently wasn't quite so offended. Apparently not. She hasn't said shit about it.

Quite so offended. Apparently not. She hasn't said shit about it. Anyway, my sincerest apologies. And to anyone who needs a new 10 pounds fun fact journal because it's been ruined. Please. Oh. Are you offering to buy people new journals? Replace their 10 pounds fun fact journal.

I don't think you are. You've got to stop yourself. I did. think you are. You kind of stopped yourself. I did. I really... This is how I know you'll never be Oprah. You'd be like, everyone look under your... No, that's going to cost me some money. Yeah, never mind.

Nobody look under your chairs. There's nothing under your chairs. Everybody just scribble it out and write in toys and hardware right next to it. Mm-hmm. Toys and hardware right next to it. Mm-hmm. Toys and hardware. That's what's in Kristen's nightstand. All right. Are we writing this down?

Very good. Okay, on with the program. Can we tell you about a nice little anniversary? Oh, shut up. Okay, on with the program. Let me tell you about a nice little anniversary. Oh, shut up. Yeah, okay. Get away. Why are you shaking your tits at me? Is this revenge?

Because you did it. It's revenge. You did it. Okay, when we record these things, we have to do 10 seconds of silence at the beginning. It's torture for us. And during that 10 seconds of silence, Kristen took both her boobs in her hands and shook them aggressively at me. Here's the thing. The thing about the 10 seconds of silence is that sometimes it's fun to see what I can get away with. And then you laugh and you're the one who gets in trouble.

And I'm the one who fucked it up, yeah. It's great. Shout outs! But you were so turned on that you just sat there in silence. My jaw dropped open and my tongue fell out like one of those cartoons. So it did backfire on me, but I accept the compliment.

Anyway, let me give a shout outs now, please. No, I'm still talking about my boobs. Shout out to ChillingCrimes.com. This is where I first stumbled upon this case. You're spending a lot of time on ChillingCrimes.com. Okay, so I just did an episode last week that I found on there. I'm spending a lot of time on ShalaneFarms.com. Okay, so I just did an episode, yeah, last week that I found on there. And it was like as I was like leaving that website that I was like, oh, excuse me, what's this?

And I found this case. However, most of the information for this episode actually comes from a Dateline episode. So let me get this straight. When you're surfing the web, it's a little like you're in a literal mall. It is. It really is. As I was walking out of that website. As I was walking to the web. It's a little like you're in a literal mall. It is. Really? As I was walking out of that website. As I was walking to the register, they suckered me in with some impulse items. And that's how we've come to this case today. All right. Beautiful. Let's hear it.

From an outsider's perspective, Dr. Toni Berdele seemed to have it all. She was beautiful. She was a God-loving woman, and she had supportive brothers. I'm sorry. What? Fuck that up. Is it that bad? No, it's not that bad at all.

I just totally, like, moved words around. I'm going to hit that again. And she had supportive parents and two brothers with whom she was very close. What about God? Yeah, she was also close. She still loved God. She still loved God. Alright, that wasn't the part that you messed up. No, that wasn't the part I messed up. Alright, gotcha. Really loved God. Super into God.

I have to admit, I was thinking that was wrong because you often hear God-fearing. No, she loved God. She wasn't afraid of God. She was Southern, though, so I think they do usually say God-fearing. No, she loved God. She wasn't afraid of God. She was Southern, though, so I think they do usually say God-fearing. Yeah, if they're on the straight and narrow. No. She had a successful ophthalmology practice and was a highly regarded ophthalmic surgeon in Jackson, Mississippi, where she'd been born and raised.

But by 1999, Toni felt like there was something missing in her life. She was 37 years old, and her first marriage had ended in divorce after eight years. She really wanted a family of her own. Her biological clock was a ticking. She wanted to marry and have children, but her work schedule was full and left little time for dating. So she decided to give online dating a try. What year was this? 1999.

Oh, that's when it was weird. Yeah, so I feel like in 1999, online dating was still seen as like this scary thing, and people were like, you're basically asking to get murdered. Yeah, yeah. That's exactly what it was. At any rate, Toni set up a profile on an online dating site, and because her faith was such an important part of her life, she specifically chose a Christian dating site. life, she specifically chose a Christian dating site. She kind of eased in, chatted with a couple of fellas, went on a couple of dates, but then she met him. Who?

The one. Ooh. His name was Harold Henthorne. I'm going to pause here just for one second and just let you in on a little secret. Okay. Halfway through writing this up, I pulled a real Kristen and changed his name to Howard. And I caught it this morning, and I believe I have corrected all of them. But if you hear me say Howard.

I personally find those names interchangeable. I mean Harold. Okay. So his name was Harold Henthorne and he was handsome, charming, and successful. All right. He worked as some kind of like professional fundraiser for churches and schools. professional fundraiser for churches and schools. He was so successful that as their relationship got serious,

he told Tony she never had to work again if she didn't want to. But Tony obviously loved her career and found it very fulfilling and was plenty successful on her own. Was he independently wealthy? I guess. I mean, the last name sounds wealthy. If we're going off last names alone. Yeah, it seems like there should be like the third after,

right? Yeah. And then he should say mmm. And he only calls her lovey. Lovey. Live after what you can. Tony and Harold's relationship got serious pretty quickly. I mean, they weren't fucking around. They boothed.

Boothed. They boothed. They knew what they were looking for. They boothed for love. They boothed. Were they looking for news? Ladies and gentlemen, not a drop of alcohol today. I'll have you know.

Yeah, we should mention. No alcohol was consumed today at all. Just a lot of tea. They both knew what they were looking for. It was marriage and a family. And a booth. Just a lot of tea. They both knew what they were looking for. It was marriage and a family. And a booth. And a booth. Harold.

They didn't want a table. If they wanted to sit at a table, they'd eat at home. They wanted a booth. You get it. Everybody gets it. Oh no. Here.

I can't laugh while I say this next part. Uh oh. It's not funny. I'm so sorry. It's okay. Will it help if I look away? Maybe. will it help if I look away maybe every time I read this sentence I need to say

it's so not funny that I keep laughing maybe try saying it and if you laugh like you just yeah Harold was a widower. Hilarious.

Wow, you're so insensitive, Brandy. What is wrong with you? So Harold was a widower. He had lost his wife in a car accident five years earlier. He was also five years older than Tony, so he was ready for the family life. So their relationship was very serious pretty much from the get-go. The couple married in September of 2000. They'd been together like nine months by that point. And they tried to settle into married life.

But things in the beginning were a little bit tough. These were two independent, established adults trying to merge their lives together. Tony's practice was in Jackson, Mississippi, while Harold's business was based in Colorado, where he lived. Oh. Wait, they were long distance? Yeah. So for the first two years of their marriage, they were long distance.

Wow, that's unusual. Yeah. They lived separately in their respective home bases and traveled regularly to see each other. But it was super hard. It was really taxing on the relationship. That's really strange. I agree.

All right. Yeah. Are we Booth on the same page? I think we're Booth-gibbon. Plus, they both wanted children, and they knew this setup simply would not work for that long term. Yeah, because you have to be in the same room. To make a child.

Yeah. I learned that in sex education several years ago. Yes, a couple of years ago. Yeah, yeah. I'm quite young. So Tony made the tough decision to relocate to Colorado. This meant starting her practice over from scratch, moving away from the place

she'd lived her whole life, and moving away from her family. But those were the sacrifices she was willing to make. Bad move because he's a catfish. You think he's a catfish? Yeah, I think he's full of shit that he's like got all this money

from being a fundraiser professional fundraiser no is that a job well yeah if you're like the head of an organization it was kyla's job before she was executive director you know it's development yeah but you're not like i mean i guess it depends on where you're the development director, but I don't know. This seems like a stretch. I think the only way you're at that level is if, like, there's family money and you're in charge of deciding which charity gets the money. Yeah, that's interesting. Sounds like my ideal job.

Yeah. So if another family would like to adopt me. Yeah. So if another family would like to adopt me. So Tony made the move and things were good for the couple in Colorado. They lived in a really nice home in Highlands Ranch, which is like 30 miles south of Denver. One article I read said that Tony's parents, Bob and Yvonne, gifted them like $500,000 to buy their house. Oh, well, shit.

Maybe he, well, yeah, he does come from. No, no, no. So this is Tony's parents. Oh, oh, okay. This is Tony's parents. They were like rich, rich. They made a shit ton of money after oil was found on a couple of pieces of land that they owned. Well, yeah, that'll do it.

Yeah. This has absolutely nothing to do with the story, but I thought it was interesting. Yeah, no, that's great. Yeah. So they were, yeah, they were like, yeah, here's $500,000. Use it as a down payment. Buy a house with it. Buy stuff for the house with it. Whatever you need. Use $500,000 as a down payment. So I was very curious what kind of house they bought. So I found it. What is it?

9205. Oh, my God. Sandhill Street, Highlands Ranch, Colorado. Hmm. It looks like a typical, like, Johnson County house. I gotta say I'm a little let down. Yeah. So they bought it for, like, just under $500,000.

Oh, okay, okay. In 2000, when they bought it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a nice house. It's, like, 5,000 square feet. Yeah, I know. I was just, like... If they yeah. It's a nice house. It's like 5,000 square feet. Yeah, I know. I was just like... If they're using that as a down payment.

Yeah, I was like, all right, let's see this thing. But I think what they did was like, we have $500,000, let's just... Yeah, no, they did this smart thing. Yeah. Yeah. So Tony started up a new practice in Littleton,

and it was very successful because she was a great doctor and surgeon. In 2005, after some struggles with infertility and pregnancy lost, they welcomed a baby girl and they named her Haley. And finally, they had everything they had always wanted. Harold was a doting father. Tony was a hands-on working mom. Things were good. Of course, there were the, you know, occasional marital tiffs.

Tony worked too much. Harold was too much of a control freak. But such is life. Was it ever said that Harold worked too much? No, that never came up. Right, because he was just going to the bus stop every day in a suit. Suit, yeah. Okay.

Fast forward to fall of 2012. With their 12th wedding anniversary approaching, Harold wanted to do something special for Tony. So he arranged a surprise weekend getaway to celebrate. He worked with Tony's office manager to arrange everything and make sure her schedule was covered. Then on Friday, September 28th, Harold surprised Tony at work. She walked into an exam room expecting to meet a new patient,

but instead there was Harold. He then let her in on the surprise. They were leaving right then to head to Estes Park. Tony was like, um, what? I can't just leave. I've got a full day of patients and we have like a seven year old child at home. And Harold was like, nope, it's all taken care of. Your schedule is not full.

Your office manager has cleared it. That was just like all part of the ruse. And I've already got a babysitter lined up for Haley. Everything's taken care of. Your bags are packed. They're in the car. Let's fucking go. Okay, how would you feel about this for real?

Oh, I think I'd love it. Oh, yeah? Okay. I wouldn't like that I didn't pack my own bag, though. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's not your style. No. Because David might pick the wrong black shirt

when you wanted that other black shirt. You're exactly right. And then you'd look like a fool the wrong black shirt when you wanted that other black shirt. You're exactly right. And then you'd look like a fool in that black shirt. And what if he only packed me like three pairs of underwear for the weekend when I would have packed nine? You know, in case I repeatedly shat my pants. He knows how quickly you go through underwear. Legit, we just did like a weekend away not that long ago. And like David had his little pile and he was like two pairs of underwear, two shirts, two pants.

And I had my little pile and I was like eight pairs of underwear. He was like, why do you have so much underwear? And I was like, the worst thing I can imagine is not having any clean underwear. Yeah. I do the exact same thing. However, the number of days, at least double. At least double. At least.

Well, and also, like, what if I want to take a shower, like, before we go to dinner? I'm not putting dirty underwear back on. So that means I've got to have two pairs of underwear. It's a whole thing. I think the people get it. I think they do, too. I won't talk about my underwear. No matter how much you beg.

So the couple arrived in Estes Park that afternoon where Harold had booked them a stay. At the Stanley? At the Stanley Hotel. Okay. They had a nice dinner that evening. Where'd they go? I'm not sure. Didn't say. a nice dinner that evening. Where'd they go? I'm not sure. Didn't say.

I couldn't find it. Fuck you. Sorry. You and I both love Estes Park. I know. We love Estes Park so much. Let's take a podcast trip to Estes Park. No nuts.

I feel like I am always like, let's do this. Let's fucking do it. Do we stay at the Stanley or do we do like an Airbnb? I think it would be awesome if we stayed like in the mountains. Yeah, I think we do Airbnb and we do a tour of the Stanley. That sounds great. For the people who don't know what the Stanley is.

Okay, yeah, it's a haunted hotel. It was the inspiration behind The Shining. I'm serious. I would do this. I've got the nuts. When do you want to do this? Do we have to set a date right now? Yes. Let's do it soon. When?

Tomorrow. When we finish recording, we are setting this up. Sounds good. All right. Okay. So they had a nice dinner that evening, and then they retired to their room early because, as Andrea Canning put it on this episode of Dateline

Uh oh Andrea. It was a romantic weekend after all. Okay. So do you think she's saying that they banged? I wish she'd be more clear. The next day was Saturday September 29th 2012 and the couple was headed to Rocky Mountain National Park for a day of hiking. Oh, no.

He's going to push her off a cliff. Oh, no, Brandy. Yes, that's exactly what he's going to do. But before we get there, I have to tell you something. What? I have been on this exact vacation. You have? You have?

Yeah. I went on an anniversary trip to Estes Park with my now ex-husband. Do you think he planned to push me off a cliff and eat chicken down? We stayed at the Stanley.

You stayed at the Stanley. You were there with a douche. And all that stuff. I have been on this trip. Wait, now, this particular trail, did you go on this trail? We did not, but we did go on a guided trail.

That's why. That's why. It's because it was guided. The guide was there. That's the only reason you're alive to tell the tale today. Very well might be. He was like, do we have to do guided? You're like, yes.

I'm like, should we want to do guided? He's like, we could just, like, you know, take the car and... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my god. Uh-huh. Yeah.

So when I found this case, I was like reading about it. And like the initial write-up I read about this case didn't go into the details of the trip. So I was like, oh, this is awesome. Love it. And then I watched the Dateline episode. You were like, uh-oh. And they were like told about the trip. And I was like oh oh this is awesome love it and then i watched the dateline episode you were like oh oh like told about the trip and i was like oh my god oh my god i've been on this trip i survived this trip man memories i asked casey last night if I was allowed to tell this story on the podcast, if I was allowed to be like, yes, I've been on this trip.

She's like, absolutely, you're allowed to say that. Yeah, you're allowed to say that. Anyway, so. Glad to have you with us, Brandi. Absolutely. So Harold and Tony went to Rocky Mountain National Park for a day of hiking. They set out hiking on the Deer Mountain Trail. The day was beautiful.

They took some cute pictures together. And then just before 3.30, is that the same as PM or is it a different? It's similar, but it's on Mountain Time. Very cool. Yeah. it's on mountain top. Very cool. Yeah. That's PM Colorado style. They decided they wanted to break for lunch, but the trail was really crowded. They wanted somewhere more secluded to have their lunch.

And so they left the trail. And they found a nice scenic cliff. And they set out their little stuff and had some lunch. And then they were still like, they weren't far enough from the trail yet. There was still like some people just kind of meandering by. And so Harold was like, let's find an even more secluded spot so it can just be like

just the two of us. Just a real romantic. Yeah. We can have just like a real romantic moment. Take some beautiful pictures together. Just you and me and the mountains. And so they ventured further off the trail.

And they found this more secluded area. And then something happened. And then something happened. It's not real clear what happened because Harold's not really sure. But at 5.54 p.m., Harold called 911. He said he needed alpine rescue immediately. And they were like, okay, what's the matter? And he's like, my wife fell.

She fell off a cliff. She had fallen 128 feet off of a cliff. He said that she had fallen. And he told different stories to different people that he spoke to after this. So he told one person that she'd kind of like lagged behind as they were moving out away from the trail. And then like he'd seen like a flash. And then all of a sudden he looked behind him and Tony wasn't there. And so he'd looked over the edge of the cliff that they were near. And there she was on the ground below. He told someone else that they'd been hiking and they had stopped on this cliff to take some pictures. And then he had gotten a text message from their babysitter reporting how Haley's soccer game had gone that day.

And it was while he was looking down at his cell phone, reading that message. And when he looked up, Tony was gone. And so he looked over the edge of the cliff and there she was on the ground, 128 feet below. Or perhaps they were taking turns taking pictures of each other with this great scenic background. And when she'd reached to hand him the camera, she'd slipped and she'd fallen 128 feet to the ground below from the cliff. Or. Are you serious? Or there was like a group of wild turkeys just over the edge of the cliff. And she was just kind of leaning out, trying to get the perfect picture of the wild

turkeys and she had slipped and fallen 128 feet to the ground below did he see that or was he looking at his phone you know i'm not sure it seems like harold's not quite sure the bottom line is that tony fell 128 feet from this cliff and And Harold took 45 minutes to climb down to her, which is possible. Yeah. I think that's very possible that it could take that long to get to her. But he did not call 911 until he reached her.

So from that point, he gets to where she is. He told the 911 dispatcher that he'd pulled her to a flatter area because she'd fallen on kind of an angled part of rock and that she was laying there unconscious, but that she was breathing. And Harold gave his location to that dispatcher. And they're like, OK, as far up as you are, because they were near the summit of this mountain that they were hiking on at this point. They're like, as high up as you are, we can only get a ranger to you on foot. It's going to be a couple of hours. They're like, you need to get working on her.

You need to, you know, if she's not breathing, we need to do CPR. And he's like, well, she's breathing faintly at this point. And then he was like, send us a helicopter. Drop somebody in. I'm having trouble hearing you. Nobody is talking to you. So sorry. Siri felt the need to interject into our podcast.

We don't like tangents on this podcast, Siri. No, Siri, get the fuck out of here. So he's telling this 911 dispatcher that he's like whatever you have to do i don't care the cost i'll pay whatever drop a paramedic in here from the helicopter and the dispatcher's like i'm sorry sir that's not really a thing yeah that can be done we can't just drop somebody into you. I need you to describe your location to me as best you can, and we will get somebody to you on foot. And what you need to do is focus on keeping her breathing until we can get a ranger to you. And this is interesting. I didn't know this. Because

this happened in a national park, all of the rangers are trained EMTs. And so that ranger would be trained in life-saving measures. And so, like, that's the right person to get to her. Right. But it would be a couple of hours. And then Harold was having a really hard time explaining where he was because they'd left the fucking trail. Well, yeah. I mean, it's woods.

Yeah. And I'm looking at mountains. It would be very hard to describe. It was very difficult. And then Harold was like, my phone's going to die. I have to get off the phone with you. Yeah. And so the dispatcher was like, OK, that's fine. You know, monitor her. Call me back. Like, you know, check in, whatever. So over the next like two hours, he made several calls back and forth to 911 to give updates to try and see if they were getting close to him. They worked out like a whistle system for when the ranger got close.

And on one of the calls before the ranger got there, he told the dispatcher that Tony wasn't breathing anymore. She had gone from like five breaths a second to zero breaths a second. And so they were like, okay, you've got to start chest compressions. You've got to start CPR. And he was like, absolutely. I know how to do that. And the person on the other end of the line was like, I can walk you through it. I can time it. I have like a system on my computer here so that I can time it for you so that you're making sure that you are getting her enough breaths, enough chest compressions. Yeah. And he's like, no, I know how to do it. And my phone's going to die.

I'm like, OK. OK. The EMT arrived around 8 p.m. It was like dark by this point. He had started a fire at some point. And that was in and of how they could find him. And they did the whistle thing. But it was too late.

Tony was dead by the time the ranger arrived. Police talked to Harold about what was going on and what had led up to this. And again, Harold told weird, different versions to each person that he spoke to. It was the text message thing. It was the she lagged behind while they were walking and he lost sight of her. It was the they were exchanging pictures. It was the text message thing. It was the, she lagged behind while they were walking and he lost sight of her. It was the, they were exchanging pictures. It was the turkeys.

It was, and so they were like, okay, that's super weird. In the meantime, while he was waiting for the ranger to get there, he was sending text messages to Tony's family, letting them know what was going on. There'd been a fall. Tony wasn't doing well. They needed to plan to get from Mississippi to Colorado. Like, things were not looking good.

Yeah. When this information got to Tony's parents, Bob and Yvonne, the first thing Bob said was. He killed her. He pushed her. Yeah. Oh, my God. He killed her? He pushed her.

Yeah. Oh, my God. And it was the thing everybody in the family had been thinking, but no one had said yet. Yeah. When this investigation started after Tony's death, by the time they, you know, got them out of there, all this stuff, it came out that Tony's parents had been worried about her for quite some time. In the time that she'd been married to Harold, she had changed. She was no longer this confident woman that she had once been. She'd become isolated from her family when she moved to Colorado. Anytime they even tried to talk to her on the phone, Harold was there.

Harold always answered the phone and then put it on speakerphone for them to speak to her. She never was able to speak to her family without Harold being in the room, Harold leading the conversation. Yeah. Harold was in charge.

And Tony's parents were worried that, much like you thought, Harold was full of shit about his business. They didn't think that he was this successful businessman. They believed that he was likely living off of Tony's income. Yes. And he was the one that was 100% in charge of their finances. Yeah. There we go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. one that was 100% in charge of their finances. Yeah, there we go.

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. But that wasn't it. That wasn't the thing that really worried them. There was an incident about a year before this. They had already had their concerns. Yvonne had even actually tried to talk to Tony about it once. In the 12 years that they'd been married, Tony had made one trip alone to Mississippi to visit her parents. And on that trip, her mom sat her down and was like, I'm going to do the thing that I'm probably not supposed to do, but I just want you to listen to me. I'm worried about you.

I'm worried about Harold and his control over you. Yeah. And I'm concerned that there's something going on there. Yeah. And Tony just said, you know what? I can't talk about this. Oh. Everything's fine.

And that was it. Yvonne had just let it go. I'm like, well, that's. Yeah. I mean, if. What more am I supposed to do? Yeah. How much can you press a person?

So following that incident. About a year prior to this anniversary trip. Tony and Harold had been at this like hunting cabin that they had just outside of Denver. It was a place that they went really regularly. They were doing some kind of work on the deck outside at 10 o'clock at night. So Haley had gone to bed and then Harold was like, hey, come outside with me. I've been working on the deck. I need some help.

I don't know, cleaning up some kind of debris or something. Okay. And so the story is kind of convoluted because, you know, it's coming, you know, you're getting Harold's 12 different versions. Yeah. Somehow Tony was standing like on the ground below the deck and Harold was up on the deck. on the ground below the deck and Harold was up on the deck and Tony bent

down to like pick something up or something like that and as she was bent over a giant piece of lumber a big beam fell directly on the back of her neck and she had to be taken by ambulance to the hospital

she broke her neck. Oh, my God. Yeah. But a total accident, right? It was a complete accident. It had just fallen or slipped or was Harold holding it? He couldn't remember. Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh. If Tony had not bent over, like the split second before that beam came down on her, it would have hit her directly on the head. And she likely would have died. Yeah. So this incident happened and her parents were like please please leave please do something you are not safe at the very least please do not go anywhere alone with him

and then a year later she went on this anniversary trip that was a total surprise that she was caught off guard for oh wow so police start looking into surprise that she was caught off guard for. Oh, wow. So police start looking into Tony's death and they're like, huh. A bunch of inconsistencies in these stories that Harold is telling. It's weird.

Yeah. Huh. Harold had told the first ranger that they had talked to that they'd actually planned to hike Bear Lake Trail that day. Oh, yeah. I've hiked that one. Have you really? Yeah.

So Bear Lake Trail is like a paved trail with zero elevation gain. Right. Which is why they were going to hike it because Toni had been an athlete when she was younger and had three knee surgeries. Right. And to the point that she was no longer able to ski and stuff. And so hiking was something she loved. She loved being outside. Sure.

But a hike where you're having this great elevation gain would be very difficult for her. Yeah. So the trail that they did instead, because they went to Bear Lake and the trail was just too busy. And so they wanted something more private. And so then they went to Deer Mountain. Well, that trail goes from...

I think I've done Deer Mountain, too. It's very possible. I think it's a popular trail. Okay. So the elevation climb from that one, it starts at 1,200 feet, goes to 10,000 feet. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And so immediately the ranger was like, yeah, those aren't hikes that you would just like...

No, you don't swap. Switch out. Harold then at one point told a ranger that he wasn't super familiar with the area. He had been to Deer Mountain like once before, a long time ago. But then they did a search of his phone records, and it turns out in the six weeks leading up to this trip, he'd been on Deer Mountain eight times in the last six weeks. Yeah.

He also gave something up about how well he knew the area because when he was trying to tell them where he was, he was like, okay, the route we took, you can, if you look out to the west, I don't know if this is exactly what he said, but if you look out to the west, you can see where that white sheet was hanging off the edge of that mountain. And so this was something that had been there apparently for some time, but a week prior to this, park rangers had actually gone out to that area and removed that sheet.

Shit. Uh-huh. Yep. Yeah. Well, Uh-huh. Yep. Yeah. Well, there you go. And then police searched Harold's car and they found in his glove box that he had like a topographical map of the park. Mm-hmm.

And there was a big X on the map in the exact spot where Tony fell to her death. What a coincidence. They asked him about this and he's like, I don't know. I don't know where that came from. I'm not, I've never seen the X on that map before. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Police were also starting to,

I mean, obviously they were very suspicious of Harold by this point, and Tony's family was telling the police, like, yes, this is super suspicious. Yeah. Look into this. And so then they started analyzing his 911 call, his multiple 911 calls. So he had told every operator that he had talked to that he couldn't talk because his phone battery was about to die.

But during the time he made the initial 911 call to when the ranger made it to him, he placed or received 22 calls and sent or received 98 text messages, including several messages to a friend whom he asked to come pick him up in Estes Park. And he was giving him directions of like where to go and where to pick him up. Oh, wow. Mm hmm. Yeah. Some of the messages were to Tony's family, letting them know what was going on.

But yeah, that was one of the messages as well. Well, that's pretty critical. Yeah. Yeah. Go past the one of the messages as well. Well, that's pretty critical. Yeah. Yeah. Go past the egg and I. Mm hmm. And you like the egg and I. And you like the egg and I. Then police discovered that Harold had recently taken out several life insurance policies on Tony. Oh, God, of course. Not only that, he had actually also changed himself to the beneficiary of a life insurance policy

that Tony's parents had bought for her and had named Haley as the initial beneficiary. Wow. Mm-hmm. But like weeks before this trip, days before this trip, he changed it so that he...

Did he think he was going to get away with this? I mean. I mean. I mean. Right? The policies in total. How much? $4.7 million. Get the fuck out of here.

Mm-hmm. Okay, I have a question. Okay. What did Toni look like? She was beautiful. She was an athletic-looking blonde woman. She was beautiful. Okay.

Yeah. Why? Did you want her to be ugly? No, no, no. I have never forgotten this one episode of Dateline I saw like a million years ago. And who knows? Maybe it was 2020. Yeah.

But, like, this woman was pushed off a cliff by her husband or boyfriend or whatever. was pushed off a cliff by her husband or boyfriend or whatever. And the whole reason her family was suspicious of him was because they thought she wasn't very good looking. Oh, no, she was beautiful. And so this whole time I've been like, is this the story? But Brandy just doesn't want to go into this because it was really weird to hear her parents and like her sister be like, yeah, we thought it was real strange. All right.

So the ranger who had responded to the initial call was suspicious from the minute he got there. Because number one, Harold had told the 911 dispatcher that he had laid Tony flat. Right. She wasn't laying flat when they got there. Her head was below her body. Oh. She was laying on an angle so that it was like her feet were elevated and her head was lower

than the rest of her body. Oh. And the ranger noticed immediately that it wasn't possible that Harold had made any attempt to do CPR because Tony's lipstick was intact. Oh, shit.

So police have learned about all of these life insurance policies, and they're like, oh, interesting. Yeah, great. Like, this guy's a genius. Yeah. And then they learned that this wasn't the first time that Harold had been on the receiving end of some life insurance policies. Okay, now this makes sense.

He's this reckless because he's done it before and it wasn't hard. Exactly. So this information came to them in an anonymous email tip that was sent two days after Tony's death following a news report on Tony's fall. following a news report on Tony's fall. The email simply said, this man's first wife died in a tragic freak accident as well. So remember, Harold was a widower. Oh my gosh.

He'd lost his wife in a car accident. Yeah, that he caused. Only, what if it wasn't an accident? Oh, God. In May of 1995, Harold had previously been married to a woman named Lynn. And in May of 1995, Lynn and Harold were out driving. They were like in Colorado, Sedalia, Colorado. They'd gone out for the night. It had gotten dark. They were in kind of a remote area. And as they were driving, they noted that one of the tires on their Jeep Cherokee started to feel spongy. That's the word that all the articles use.

I've never heard a tire described as spongy before. But apparently it means it's starting to go flat. Okay. And so they pulled over and they needed to apparently it means it's starting to go flat. Okay. And so they pulled over and they needed to change the tire. They needed to put the spare on, but they're on like a secluded road. It's dark. They can't see. And it's 1995, so they don't have like cell phone flashlights and stuff.

Right, right. Yeah. And so they are working in the dark to change this tire. So they are working in the dark to change this tire. At some point, they had the car jacked up. They had the tire off. And then Lynn, apparently, according to Harold, had dropped a lug nut. And she crawled under the Jeep to retrieve the lug nut. Oh, no.

Oh, no. While she was under the Jeep retrieving the lug nut, Harold had taken the tire that they pulled off the car and kind of like tossed it into the back of the Jeep. And the jacks that the Jeep was on had collapsed and the car fell on Lynn, trapping her beneath it. Mm-hmm. So Lynn is trapped under this car. fell on Lynn, trapping her beneath it. So Lynn is trapped under this car. Harold is freaking out. He waves down a driver to help him. And they pull Lynn out.

Somebody drives off to call 911, whatever. Well, it's a whole chaotic scene. Police come. They lifelight Lynn out of there. She goes into surgery, and she dies in surgery. Her death was ruled an accident, and it was consistent with traumatic asphyxiation. Yeah.

And Harold was paid out her life insurance policy. After Tony's death, though, police were like, maybe we should look into that first death. Yeah, for sure. Some of this comes from an article that was in Rolling Stone magazine. OK. And it's written from the perspective of the detective who was asked to go back and look at this earlier case. And he talks about how when he was asked to go back and look at it, some of the people who had initially investigated were still at the police department. Yeah.

And they were his bosses. And they were like, listen, you've got to look into this case like we think it might be connected to this. And you're probably going to find some stuff that's going to be embarrassing to us because it seems like maybe we didn't do as thorough of a job as we should have. But you got to do it. That's very refreshing. Yeah, absolutely.

All right. Yes. Okay. And so they go to work re-examining Lynn's death investigation. The investigation had been closed within five days. Her death had been ruled an accident. Well, it sounds like they were pretty thorough. Yeah.

But the problem was that the only person who had seen anything that night was Harold. Whoops. Yeah. Oh, did I say murderer? Oh! Oh!

My mistake! But looking back at the statements that Harold had made, there were inconsistencies all over the place. He told one officer that they were driving east. He told another officer that they were driving west. He told police on one time that they were going to dinner. Another police officer, he told they were coming back from dinner. Nobody ever bothered to call the restaurant and see if they'd actually dined there that night it was a fucking mess there were other inconsistencies in his story the tire that had gone flat that they had to change wasn't flat wasn't flat

wasn't flat okay and there was a note in the file that when they examined the car following Lynn's death, there was kind of like a weird thing where there was a partial footprint. Oh. On the side of the Jeep, right above the wheel well. But, like, I mean, if you went out and looked at your car right now, there's probably a footprint right above your wheel well, right? How did they notice that, but they didn't put that together? I don't know.

I don't know. So, following this, this detective who's asked to go look into this, he, like, sets up, like, the exact situation. He tries to throw the tire into the Jeep and get it to collapse on the jack. It doesn't. But as soon as he moves to the side of it and kicks it where that footprint is noted. Yeah. Falls right off the jacks. Of course.

Yep. They had also just not been that thorough about looking like for any reason that Harold might have had to kill his wife. They'd asked him if he had life insurance on her and he had said yes, that he had like about $300,000. Yeah. But if they looked into this at all, they would have found that actually like days before Lynn's death, he'd changed the policy so that if she died in an accident, the payout would double. I'm surprised the insurance agency didn't get suspicious of this. I am too.

Yeah. Because it's hard to get insurance to pay for anything, but this is clearly fishy. Yeah, so he received $600,000 in life insurance payout after Lynn died. Mm-hmm. There was also a note in this investigation file that a mechanic had stopped when Harold had been broken

down on the side of the road changing the tire and that this mechanic had offered to change the tire for him and Harold's like, no, it's cool. We got it. We're good. Keep on. Keep it on.

We are just fine here. Yeah. But then he had told the police that he didn't know how to change a tire, which is why Lynn was doing it. Mm-hmm. There was also a note in the file. There was a woman's name noted. Her name was Patricia Montoya.

She had called the police the day after Lynn's accident. Accident. Yeah. And she said, did you arrest the husband yet? So she had apparently been one of the people that had stopped. She and her husband had actually pulled Lynn out from underneath the car. And Harold had freaked the fuck out when they did that.

What? He's like, what are you doing? Don't mess with her. Don't mess with her. Don't mess with her. What are you doing? What? He's like, what are you doing?

Don't mess with her. Don't mess with her. Don't mess with her. What are you doing? And like Patricia had stayed there with Lynn while her husband went off to call 911 and get the police there. And she kept asking Harold for his coat so that she could put it over Lynn because Lynn's body was like very cold to the touch. It was shaking. She was in and out like Like, she was barely alive. Yeah.

She's like, how am I caring about this more than you are? And so she had taken her own coat off and put it on Lynn until emergency crews had got there. That's the reason she called the police. She called to see if she could come get her coat. Oh, wow. And then she was like, yeah, do you guys have my coat? And, like, had that conversation. And she's like, what about the husband?

Did you guys arrest him yet? And they'd made a note of it. But that was it. Boy. And the investigation was closed. Boy, they didn't give a shit. Yeah. It's not good.

It's not good. It's not good. Following this reexamination of Lynn's death, the manner of her death was changed from accidental to undetermined. But to date, no charges have been brought against Harold in relation to Lynn's death. Harold in relation to Lynn's death. However, Harold was charged with the first degree murder of his wife, Tony. Prosecutors obviously believed that he had lured Tony out there onto that secluded cliff and then pushed her to her death. They said that Harold had meticulously planned this murder. He'd made the arrangements to get her out there.

He'd made it so that she couldn't say no. And then he'd literally marked the spot with an X on the map. The prosecution told the jury about how he'd gone out to that park multiple times in the weeks leading up to Tony's death. Six, seven, eight times they could tie him to that park by cell phone activity. Good grief. Mm-hmm. Cell phones go ping.

Yeah. Towers go pong. We know your location all day long. That's right. The court heard the 911 call. You know, Tony had fallen in that very remote location. The cell service was bad. There were no nearby aid stations, which, of course, is no accident.

And help couldn't get there until 8 o'clock. Like, this was how planned it was. It's like, where can I take her to where I can push her off? And even if she doesn't die right away, it will take long enough for emergency crews to be able to get to her that they won't be able to save her. Well, he learned something from the first death. Absolutely. She didn't die right away.

So you've got to be prepared for that. Yep. The prosecution called Julie Sullivan. She was the dispatcher who had talked to Harold at multiple points during those two hours when he was waiting for the ranger to get there. She was the one who had offered to walk him through how to do CPR. And she testified that her conversation with Harold was fucking weird. And she testified that her conversation with Harold was fucking weird. She said, in my experience, when I'm doing CPR with somebody, guiding them through it, even if they are experienced people like nurses and other people on the scene, they are extremely out of breath.

I found it very unusual that he wasn't letting me know when he completed an instruction I had given him. She said, every other call I've been on, the person wants to know immediately what to do next. Okay, I did my 30. What do I do next? What do I do next? That was very unusual. And I didn't feel like he was actually doing CPR. Most people, because of the exertion of doing CPR, the compressions and also having to give breaths, it's very exhausting. I need to know when you're complete with it so we can go ahead and go on to the next instruction. And he just wasn't letting me know after he completed each instruction I'd given him. So I was prompting him to let me know. And also, we did have an open line on all other CPR calls that I've done through my career. I can hear them as they're doing the compressions on the patient because it's a lot of breathing.

It's heavy breathing. It's very exhausting. And it's hard to even get out and talk back. They have a hard time talking to me because they're so out of breath. And that wasn't the case with Harold. And that park ranger had said the same thing. Her lipstick was completely intact. There's no way he had even attempted CPR on her.

Julie told the court that based on her experience, she did not believe that Harold had performed CPR. The medical examiner also testified that Tony had the signs of injuries from the fall, but that they didn't find any of the injuries you would expect from CPR. It causes injuries to the body. It causes contusions and abrasions to the ribs and to the chest, and there was no indication that any of that was present.

The medical examiner did not believe that CPR had been attempted either. The prosecution was able to tell the jury about Harold's first wife, Lynn. Oh, really? Okay. I wondered if that would be admissible. They explained the circumstances surrounding her unusual death, and they were allowed to tell the jury about this death because it was so similar to Tony's death. They also told the jury about that incident that had happened at the cabin

where Tony had had that large beam fall on her neck and she'd been injured. And if she hadn't bent over right before the moment of impact, she likely would have died. Mm hmm. The prosecution told the jury that the motivation here was life insurance. If Tony died. Harold stood to gain four point.7 million from her death. The defense did not put up a case. Oh, wow.

At all. Okay. They said the prosecution had not proven their case. I always think it's so weird when they do that. I think it's super weird. They told the jury that there was simply no proof that Tony was pushed off the cliff. To rebut that, the prosecution was basically like, yeah, you're right.

But we are asking you to use your common sense and look at this event as a whole and come to the most logical conclusion. Yeah. Yep. The jury deliberated for ten and a half hours. I thought you were going to say ten minutes. And they found Harold guilty. I'm surprised they deliberated for so long. I am too.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. When he was led out of the courtroom in handcuffs following his conviction, Tony's family broke into cheers and yelled, Bye-bye, Harold! Uh-huh. I love that. Yep.

Harold was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. Yeah, buh-bye. It was discovered in the course of this investigation that Harold had not had a job in years. Of course not. He wasn't a wealthy fundraiser at all. Mm-hmm. He was living off of his life insurance from Lynn's debt. Oh, gross. And off of Tony's income.

Yeah. Yep. Harold has appealed his conviction. To be fair, though, he did raise those funds. I mean, you're right. He sure did. Yep. He sure did.

Harold has appealed his conviction on the grounds that the trial court erred in allowing the testimony about Lynn's death and the testimony about Tony's injury the year prior at his trial. But in 2017, an appeals court heard that and denied his appeal. He then asked the United States Supreme Court. The balls of this guy. Give me his case. And in 2018, they declined. They definitely did it, right?

They're like, my God. What a fascinating case here. He's Harold Henthorne, you say? He sounds important. Fun fact. Is it going to be fun? No. Okay.

Harold immediately had Tony's body cremated after her death. Of course he did. Just as he had Lynn's. Yeah. And he scattered their ashes in the same spot. Ew. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Haley is now in the custody of Tony's brother and his wife. Oh, gosh. Poor Haley. Yeah, poor Haley. And that's the custody of Tony's brother and his wife. Oh, gosh. Poor Haley. Yeah, poor Haley. And that's the story of an anniversary getaway. Ugh! Why are you like this? Oh, gosh.

That's so infuriating. Yeah. I hate that shit. Yeah, because he never should have had a chance to do it to Tony. No! Yeah. The fact that he was not caught when he did it to Lynn is infuriating. Yeah.

Yeah. Because he didn't even do a good job. No. But you're 100% right. The reason he did such a shitty job trying to do it to Tony was because it had been so easy when he did it to Lynn. Yeah. So why not go for more money this time? Yep.

Oh, Brandi, I'm nervous for my case. Do it. Okay, we talked about this. Yes. Over lunch. Everyone, I'm covering another hate crime. And I know a lot of people hate hate crimes. Sorry, that was too much.

Yeah, I'm really pro-hate crimes. No, we just had great feedback a couple weeks ago from someone who was like, hey, you know, when you cover people of color, could it not always be racism-based cases? And we were like, absolutely. You got it. And so we covered two. And you covered one last week. That's right. But here I am covering a hate crime.

You can take the girl out of the hate crime but you can't take the hate crime out of the girl. Oh no. Oh no. No. All this to say obviously I'm still going to cover cases like this because I think they're really important to cover.

But we will mix it up. Absolutely. With some standard murder cases. Yeah. Covered by Brandi because I hate covering those. All right. Shout outs to the In the Cold Dark Night episode of 2020. Oh.

the In the Cold Dark Night episode of 2020. Oh. Also, a really... Do I... Oh, shoot. Do I read the title of this? It kind of gives it away. No, don't read the title. Okay.

An article that has a title. It's a pretty good article. It's a very good article. They named it at some point, but Kristen's not going to name it now. It's by Wesley Laurie for GQ. Ooh. Also, got a smattering of reporting from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

Oh, the AGC? Yeah, you know me. Did I say GC? You sure did. It's definitely a J. It's for sure a J. A journal. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

You know what? I've had too many iced teas. It's true. Start slurring my G's and J's. Which is funny because I've never felt like you were affected by alcohol on this podcast. The iced tea. But the iced tea. Anyway, here we go.

Picture it. October 1983. Griffin, Georgia. Gryffindor? No, Griffin, Georgia. Keep your dorky Harry Potter ass out of here. Listen, my dorky Harry Potter ass is here every week. It travels with me.

Twice a week. That's right. So it's a small place. Gryffindor! Oh my God. Oh my God, we've awoken the beast. I'm sorry. What else?

What brand are you? Anyway, I'll put it back away. Which house are you? I'm obviously a Gryffindor. Thank you. I think you're a Hufflepuff or whatever. I'll fucking dare you. Not even close to a Hufflepuff or whatever. I'll fucking dare you. Not even close to a Hufflepuff, you Ravenclaw.

I thought Ravenclaw was good. No, I think you're a Hufflepuff. Shut up. What's your Patronus? What are you even talking about? I haven't been to the gyno in quite a while. Did your Patronus come out of your vagina? Sounds like it should.

Sounds like something that should be checked regularly. Maybe squeezed. No. Anyway, shall I get back to this story? It's October 1983 in Griffin, Georgia. No. No. 40 miles south of Atlanta.

It's a small but beautifully wooded little town thick with racism. Oh, good. You know, a lot of these 2020s where they're talking about the hate crimes, it's like the obligatory thing

of like, racism is a thing. Yeah. It was especially a thing then yeah the black people lived here yeah the white people lived here yeah you get it yeah all right so we're just speeding past that part yep this was the environment that timothy higgins grew up in i don't think that's his name his name's tim Coggins. I called him Higgins! Where does Higgins come from? Is that from the Beverly Clary books? I don't know.

The world may never know. I like how you messed up on your guy's name, and you called it Paul and Kristen, and then I literally did. You literally, the first time you said his name! Oh, here we go. Timothy, whose last name was Coggins, fun fact, was 23 years old, and he came from a big family, and he was super fun-loving. He was kind of a free-spirited guy. He had a ton of friends, and this was a small town, so everyone knew Timothy. And they knew that his last name was Coggins, not Higgins. And, you know, if you were looking for Tim, you could most likely find him hanging out at the People's Choice Club.

What is that? It's kind of, in my opinion, kind of a Halloween-y looking place. Because the body of the building is like a faded orange color and the trim is painted black. What? It's Halloween-y looking? I mean, you paint your building kind of orange with black trim. You've got a Halloween-y look to me. All right.

How's my Halloween-y look? Please don't harass me. It's fine if I harass you. I was going to say you shook your tits at me earlier. I don't like a taste of my own medicine. Thank you very much. So there are bars on the door and windows and, you know, I'll be honest,

I think this place looks terrifying. But when you live in a small town, you can't be choosy about your water and Hall-Brandy. Which is why I spent many a Saturday night in Elizabeth City, North Carolina's best and only nightclub, Levels. Levels. Levels.

Is that where you met Norm? No. Okay. So there were three, count them, three bars in Elizabeth City. Levels was the place you went when you wanted to dance because it was the only place you could go to dance. Norman does not dance. Yeah, I can't picture Norman at a club.

He's more of like a bar guy. So Coasters was the bar we met at. Oh, okay. And then there was Logan Ray's. And they served cocktails. Oh, okay. Which do you think was my favorite? Logan Ray's.

That's right. But you know, sometimes a gal's gotta dance. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so anyway, Timothy loved hanging out at the People's Choice and he especially loved dancing. He was a hell of a dancer. And one day, a white woman named Ruth Elizabeth Gay

walked into the club. Could he do the thing where you like, did the kid and play thing? What are you trying to— The kid and play thing where you do it with, like, another person. It's the 80s, right? The kid and what? The kid and play, where you kick out the foot and you attach it to the other person's foot, and then you, like, hold your hand and you—

Was this, like, white people stuff? No, the kid and play are black. I don't even know what you're saying to me. Is this a musical group? Please Google kid and play dance right this minute. Kid and play dance.

Is this like a Barney and Friends thing? No! Oh. Okay, here we go. Man, you'd break a sweat doing this. Okay, here we go. Okay, are they doing the thing where they're holding the hand and then they touch the foot?

Slow down. We're not to that part yet. This is actually a very long clip that I've clicked on. We're going to be here for a while. Okay, this is mesmerizing. Uh-huh. Oh, some dude just did the splits. Okay. I'm...

Okay, anyway, it's not that important. Just move on. I can't believe you never never heard a kitten play. I think probably I have, but I've just always heard it kitten play. Okay, look at this. Okay, hold on, hold on. This is the perfect example right here. Okay, it's a gif, so it's...

Watch them. Oh, yeah! Yeah, okay. We're gonna hit our feet together and then clap hands and spin around. I remember trying to do this. That is the kid in play. I mean, I remember doing this perfectly as a kid. All right, we're back 37 minutes later as as I had to explain to Kristen the kitten play.

You know, we're the same age. No, I'm 22. And you are 45. And yet we make it work. It's really sweet, actually. It's like when you see a newborn kitten snuggling up to an old dog. Just like under my ear. You just like curl up right under my ear.

Yeah. And you're incontinent, but I don't mind. So anyway. Anyway, he liked to dance and he met Ruth Elizabeth Gay, who went by Mickey, though for the life of me, I don't know why. Maybe it's only because she wanted people to say, hey, Mickey, you're so fine, you're so fine, you're a blow-bob, hey, Mickey. That's the only logical explanation. And also her mom was named Tina and her dad was named Robert. Brandy.

Everyone sided with me on that so mickey and timothy started dancing together and they made a bit of a habit of it every now and then they danced together but that didn't set well with timothy's sister to lisa white people and black people just didn't socialize that way. They didn't do the kitten play together. Kid and play. Kitten play, where they just batted a ball of yarn back and forth to each other. It's very important that you only do that with someone of your own race. Absolutely.

And by breaking that societal rule, Timothy was putting himself at risk. But, you know, Timothy was a grown man. He was a fun-loving man, and Talisa couldn't very well tell her older brother who he could hang out with. And Talisa wasn't the only one who was a little concerned about this relationship between Timothy and Mickey. One night in October of 1983, a guy named Jesse Gates, who worked for the Spalding County Police Department, saw Timothy on the street. And Timothy flagged him down. And Timothy said, hey, would you take me down to the People's Choice? And Jesse was like, yeah, sure.

On the ride there, Timothy told him about this white girl that he was dating. And Jesse was like, oh, yikes. He said, man, you need to watch yourself dating them sisters like that because we live in Griffin, Georgia, not Atlanta. And some people just don't accept things like that. And not in Gryffindor, as it turns out. Yeah, because Jesse is a time traveler and he's also a nerd. Yeah, because Jesse is a time traveler and he's also a nerd.

So he knew about Harry Potter and he would sprinkle it into conversations with people. Yep. People are going to be so mad that I'm calling Harry Potter nerdy. I don't care. I know you don't care. But people get fired up. They do. People were very upset with me about my judgment over fantasy role-playing games. I mean, folks, I own up to being a Harry Potter nerd and a grown woman who puts together Harry Potter Lego sets.

So, you know. So maybe you shouldn't be judging. Maybe like, I'm one of you. The judgment is coming from inside the house! So, you know, Jesse kind of gives him this warning and they approach the club and Jesse noticed that there

were like three white guys hanging out outside the club. And Jesse was like, ooh, that's a little strange. White guys did not normally hang out at that club. Were they like waiting there for Timothy Coggins? Well, let's see. So he dropped Timothy off and Timothy went into the club and one of the white guys came in asking about him.

Timothy's sister, Talisa, was headed to the bathroom when she heard people saying, hey, you know, that white guy's looking for Tim. She looked back and saw Timothy leaving the club with that white guy. By the time she got out the door, Timothy was gone. It just occurred to me that their names are Tim and Talisa, and my parents are Tim and Lisa. That is weird, huh? Yes. That's my dad and my stepmom, Tim and Lisa. Add that to your fun fact journal. Your Tim Pound's fun fact journal.

Your dad next week is going to be like, wrong. My wife's name is Sharon. How dare you? So no one heard from Timothy for a couple days. But that wasn't super. Yeah, I know. We should all be making that face. But it wasn't super unusual because he was a young guy.

He had a ton of friends and he was known to couch surf. So his family wasn't initially very concerned. But now it's October 9th, 1983. And Oscar Jordan, who was, I imagine, one of very few black officers in the local police force, got a call from work. They wanted him to come to the morgue and see if he could identify the body of a black male. Because all black men know each other. Yeah. I mean, that was not said, but I was kind of male. Oh, no. Because all black men know each other. Yeah. I mean, that was not said, but I was kind of like, wow, okay.

Okay. So Oscar went in and looked at Timothy Coggins' abused body. There were stab wounds on Timothy's chest and back and X's on his back and abdomen. Those X's were meant to represent the Confederate flag. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I'm not going to go. Well, you've already told us you told this is the case that you almost did that you didn't

do right. So we know his genitals had been removed. OK, you know, it's kind of interesting, though. I went trying to look for that source and I couldn't find it again, so I was like, was that my weird imagination? But they probably did. Okay. I mean, give me a break, right?

Timothy's body had been found in Sunnyside, which is where the poor white folks lived, and he was found beneath an oak tree that people referred to as the Hanging Tree. Oh, shit. Yep. And he was found beneath an oak tree that people referred to as the hanging tree. Oh, shit. Yep. And it's real creepy because it's like this huge ass tree amongst, you know. Yeah, I've seen those Georgia trees.

Yeah. So Oscar looked at Timothy's body, but he didn't know who it was. There was no way he could know. The body was so disfigured. He had been dragged. I mean, it's just, yeah, it was horrible. Okay, here's a question. What do you do in this situation if you're the police? Gosh, I don't know. Here's what they did. Okay. The police went into the community with pictures of this mutilated body asking people if they recognized the man. And that's how Timothy's family found out that he was dead. Okay. I've just decided what you do. Uh-huh. You go around and ask if there's anybody missing. No shit, right? Yeah. You don't just flash around a picture of a horribly disfigured victim. Well, and not to mention, Timothy had a tattoo on his hand.

Well, how's Belle? Show pictures of the tattoo. Right? Okay. I just, I can't imagine what that was like. And I didn't include this, but Talisa was, you know, one of the people who they came up to with this picture. And she immediately knew it was Tim. God, I'm getting goosebumps. She immediately knew it was Tim, but it was so horrible to see her brother like that.

And she just didn't want it to be true. So initially she was like, no, I know that's not him. I don't know. Yeah. So with Timothy now identified, the investigation into his murder began. Sort of. First off, there were people who cared deeply about bringing Timothy's killer or killers to justice. So I want to just like put that out there right from the start. I want to just like put that out there right from the start. Oscar Jordan and Jesse Gates, these two black officers who I've already mentioned, both tried to work this case, which was good because nobody else seemed to give a shit. And if that's mysterious, you should know that in 1983, a bunch of members of the local police force were active members of the KKK. Cool, cool, cool.

Yep. Is that what KKK stands for? I don't believe so. A great guess. But Oscar and Jesse cared, so they dug into this case and it didn't take them long to get pretty damn close to the bottom of it. Meanwhile, Timothy's family was grieving and terrified. One time, shortly after Timothy was discovered dead, the family got a phone call. Tim's stepdad picked up, and I couldn't find his name, but he was told essentially, you look into the faces of the people who were responsible for killing Tim every day.

And if you don't want another family member killed, then you need to leave the investigation alone. Wow. Another time, the family was just sitting around watching TV in the living room, and all of a sudden, boom! A brick burst through the living room window. Around it, someone had tied a note. It read, you're next.

Oh, shit. Then one Monday morning, Timothy's stepdad, who was a school bus driver, walked out to his bus, got in, and discovered a shirt on his seat. It was covered in blood. The family called the police, and the sheriff came out and grabbed the shirt and they never heard another thing about it. Of course. Later, the family found a decapitated dog had been placed in their home. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. What the fuck? Holy shit. At some point, Mickey fled Georgia and didn't come back. This was just within a couple weeks of the murder. Yeah. Meanwhile, Oscar and Jesse had a pretty good idea of where the killers lived. Given the isolated location of the crime scene, the killers likely lived in the nearby trailer park.

Oscar reported everything he learned to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations and to the sheriff, but they didn't share any information back with him. So that was great. And at a certain point, just a few weeks after the investigation began, they told him, hey, we've reached a dead end. The investigation is over. They said the same thing to Jesse. They said, this isn't your job. You're a patrol cop. You're not an investigator. You know, move it along. Right. Wow. So years passed and this very solvable case went cold. Fast forward to February of 2016. Timothy's mom, Viola Coggins Dorsey,

was on her deathbed in Emory University Hospital. She was 76 years old. And her daughter Talisa was there with her and Viola. And by the way, have you ever heard the name Viola before? I have a great aunt named Viola. Is this a common name back in the day? Viola Davis. Oh, duh. Oh, wait. And my great aunt's name wasn't even Viola. It was Vianna. Okay. Never mind. My great grandma's name was Iola. My great grandpa's name was Areola. My great-grandpa's name was Areola.

That doesn't make any sense. Because that's a girl's name. Clearly. Only girls are named Areola. Baby name ideas. Sorry, everyone. That was such a great tangent that was really worth it. My mom was almost named Violetta.

No. Oh, my gosh. Talk about dodging a bullet. Yeah. It was Violetta or Lynn? No. So, sorry, mom. About to out you here.

So, my mom is Southern. My mom's parents were Southern. My mom's name is Vivian Lynn. And she goes by Lynn. It was almost Violetta Vivian. Oh, my God. I love the name Vivian. I think Vivian's beautiful. My mom does not like it.

Okay. Yeah. To each their own. That's right. One person's trash is another person's Robertina, as they say. Exactly. That is what they say. Yeah. To each their own. That's right. One person's trash is another person's Robertina, as they say. Exactly. That is what they say. Yeah.

So, you know, Viola, which is not an uncommon name, you heard it here first, was on her deathbed. You guys heard of Viola Davis? Little known actress. Nope. Nobody. Nope. Nobody. Okay. And, you know, she's there with Talisa and Viola said, they found out who killed Tim.

And Talisa was like, what, mama? I mean, she really thought, okay. Because her mom hadn't been eating. I mean, it was just like, all right. She's off in another world right now. And Viola said, they found out who killed Tim. I ain't going to be here for it, but they're going to get who killed Tim. Wow.

Funny thing. So by that point, you know, the case of Timothy Coggins' murder had been cold for more than 30 years. But at that time, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation was doing its thing, and every six months, they would go through their unsolved cases and give them to new investigators just to see if they could solve them. And that's how Special Agent Jared Coleman got a hold of this case. Wow. And Brandy, I don't mean to blow your skirt up,

but I'm going to describe this man. Am I going to think he's super hot? Get this. Bald white man with facial hair. Yep. Describe David right there. Yep. Does he have dimples?

You know, believe it or not, there's not a lot of occasions for smiling in an episode of 2020 about hate crime. Right. Would have been a little inappropriate. So, you know, he looks at the murder file and it's alarmingly thin and saw that everything in the file pointed to two men. They were brothers in law, Frankie Gebhardt and Bill Moore. They were two white guys. I wrote quite guys. And they were quite white, as you'll see.

Okay. Okay. Who lived in the trailer park near where Timothy Coggins was killed. It looked like they had interviewed Frankie at the time, and he'd given them a real shitty alibi, and they'd never even bothered to interview Bill. They'd just, uh, you know, mysteriously dropped the case. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Obviously. Jared also discovered that this guy, Chris Vaughn, who had been 10 at the time of the murder and had been among a group of squirrel hunters who discovered Timothy's body. Squirrel hunters? Are people hunting squirrels? That's a story my grandpa used to talk about when he talked about how hard his life was growing up. They would go squirrel hunting for squirrel meat. It was good, apparently.

I think I'll pass on the squirrel meat. Squirrels are little. apparently. I think I'll pass on the squirrel meat. It's like squirrels are little. Seems like a lot of work for not much meat, right? They're also real fast. I mean, that's why you set out like traps and stuff for them. Like, you don't chase them on foot, right?

I don't think they're hunting with traps, are they? Well, surely they are. No, aren't they shooting them? Seems like a waste of a bullet on a freaking squirrel. I don't know. These are the things... We don't know.

We don't know. This is where our expertise is lacking. My dad hunted squirrels once. We're going to get an angry text from him. In the suburbs of Johnson County. Really? Yeah, get an angry text from him. Into the suburbs of Chauncey County. Really? Yeah, they were getting into our attic. Oh, I see.

So not for food. He bought a BB gun. And he chased one around the house. Not inside. The outside of the house. And it ducked down into the gutter. And then it came out with a fucking piece of pizza in its mouth. into the gutter, and then it came out with a fucking piece of pizza in its mouth.

Maybe that's part of it. You kill the squirrel and you get the squirrel's pizza, and then you've got yourself a meal. That squirrel was having a pizza party. So this Chris guy had actually written to investigators to say that he knew who killed Timothy Coggins. And no one had bothered to follow up on it wow so jared was like well this case doesn't seem like a gigantic mystery i think it could be solved so he reached out to sheriff daryl dicks um quick note about daryl and also try to

maintain your composure because we need to be professionals. Okay, Brandy? Okay. He is also a white bald guy with facial hair. Oh, shit. I know. You better not get a hold of this episode of 2020. David's going to get real jealous. What are you doing looking at all these guys who match my description?

So he was born and raised in Griffin, Georgia. He retired from law enforcement in 2016, and he became sheriff in 2017. And as sheriff, he was making an effort to mend the terrible relationship that law enforcement had with black folks in Griffin. Yeah. I think he's also up against a pretty big challenge being named Sheriff Dix as well.

It's a challenging last name. It is. Did I tell you that at Simmons University, which is an all-women's institution, one of our dorm names was named Dix Hall? And one time Kyla came and visited me and she's like, hey, Dix Hall, do people ever laugh about that? No. No, because it's a sophisticated university. You're the first one ever to be like, Dix, wait a minute. That's like a penis. Do you guys get it?

Do you get it? Do you get it? Do you get it? Anyway, so we were walking by Dong Hall when that happened. Oh, no. Don't spit. Excellent. Sorry.

Had a mouthful of G-fuel there. Yeah. I lived in Dix Hall my second year. And I often worked out at Schlong Rec Center. It's a mature podcast for mature people. Brandi, I want you to know that Daryl, he was no saint.

Robert Taylor, who's a former police officer and a black guy, used to work with Daryl, and I really liked how candid he was in this interview. He didn't come out and say Daryl sucked real bad, but, you know, we got the vibe. He said he didn't really talk to everybody with respect, but that he'd seen a change in Daryl over the years. And, you know, Daryl admits that he used to be a bit of a douche. He drank too much.

He partied too much. But then he was touched by the Lurd, and now he's just a 52-year-old white guy who's trying to do the right thing. So when Jared came to him with this opportunity to reopen the Timothy Coggins murder case, Daryl was like, all right, let's do it. And he assigned Lieutenant Mike Morris to be Jared's liaison in this investigation. And Brandy, I don't mean to give you a chub, but Mike Morris is also a bald white guy with facial hair. What the fuck? Okay, he doesn't actually have facial hair.

That's why you're only getting a chub. Yeah. Literally, all of these men look exactly the same to me. To the point that this is not a joke. They had this interview with Jared. All right, they've got him on camera. Then they switched to B-roll of Mike. And I was like, oh, shit, look at Jared in his little hat.

I thought they were the same guy. So the investigation kicked off, and they went and talked to Christopher Vaughn, the guy who said he knew who killed Timothy Coggins. You don't need that much of a refresher. Do you remember in the beginning of the podcast where I would give you these long refreshers about things that I'd said 90 seconds earlier? They did

have this conversation in prison because Christopher was locked up for child molestation. And Jared asked him, what is it that you're looking to gain out of this? And Christopher was like, parole, maybe. Okay. Yeah. Let's, let's let a child molester just walk. Jared didn't make him any promises, but Christopher spilled the beans anyway. He said that Frankie Gebhardt had said on multiple occasions over the years that he and Bill Moore had killed Timothy.

Somebody who does that is going to brag about it. They do it and then they brag about it. From there, the investigation focused on the evidence. From there, the investigation focused on the evidence. According to what was collected at the time of the crime, investigators should have had soil samples and tire tracks and a wooden club that looked like it had been used to beat Timothy. They had an empty Jack Daniels bottle near the scene. They had DNA on Timothy's body,

plus hair that had been on Timothy's sweater and jeans. You know, back in 1983, they'd collected a lot of evidence. Yeah, these sound like all the pieces that you get in one of those, like, solve-the-murder games. Yeah. But here's a bad thing. What if, oops, fudge stripes, all those pieces go missing, and you still have to try to solve the murder. Yeah.

Yeah. So that was great. But they kept talking to people and they found that Frankie Gebhardt in particular had basically been blabbing nonstop for years that he and Bill had murdered Timothy Coggins. So the investigators went and talked to Frankie, and luckily it was super easy to find him because your boy was in prison. And in that interview, Frankie claimed he didn't recall the murder. Yeah, hadn't heard of it. Didn't know a thing.

They showed him pictures of Timothy Coggins, and Frankie denied any knowledge of the murder. And at the end of the interview, as they were showing him more pictures, Frankie, who I can't stress this enough, was being questioned about a lynching. No shit said to them. I ain't never seen that. Beep. Wow. Amazing.

After the interview, Frankie called up his sister, Sandra Bunn, who I think seems like a world-class douche, and she gave him some advice on how to deal with the investigators. She said, don't take no drinks from them. Don't give them no kind of DNA, no kind of saliva, nothing. from them. Don't give them no kind of DNA, no kind of saliva, nothing. DNA appears to have been a source of concern for Frankie. I mean, but it didn't need to be because it was missing. They had nothing to compare it to. But in this episode of 2020, they shared this story where Sheriff Daryl Dix got a court order for Frankie's DNA. But of course, Frankie didn't want to give it to him. And in this conversation with Frankie,

Daryl pulled his badge off and threw it on the floor and said, I don't have my badge on now. What are you going to do? Don't just stand there and run your mouth. Do something or shut up. Oh, shit. And Frankie was like, I'm not going to do this. And Daryl said, I'll give you a choice.

We can get your DNA out of the back of your mouth or we can swab it up off this floor choice is yours oh so yeah I think we can see how Daryl used to interact with people by the way okay Sandra wants you to know that she has never had more trouble with a sheriff than she has with Daryl Dix, okay? Yeah, she said he was a real Dix. Mm-hmm. You know something, Brandy? The only reason he reopened this case was for the media to get the black votes. Okay.

What? At this point, I'd like to pause for a moment of silence for all the old white women who are devastated that their local sheriff is now serving all constituents. Must be very jarring and horrible. So at this point in the investigation, they decided to take a gamble. Are you okay? You've got a real sad look on your face. Well, it is a real sad case. Yeah, but I mean, Sandra's a fun douche, right?

Yeah. Just trying to get the black votes. I don't even know what that means. It means he's not being horrible to the black people who live in the county and that's a problem oh great yeah awesome come to me for your racist white lady translators so you know they decide they're going to take a gamble they reached out to the media and they were like hey hey just so you know we are super close to making an arrest in the murder of Timothy Coggins. We're like, yeah, you know, we've had witnesses come forward.

We're even, you know, again, super can't tell you how close we are to making this arrest. But we expect that even more people will come forward, possibly with even better information than we currently have. Our door is open. So the truth was they didn't really have enough to arrest anybody. possibly with even better information than we currently have. Our door is open. Yeah. So the truth was they didn't really have enough to arrest anybody, but they hoped that by working with the media they'd get people talking, and this strategy paid off. The former trailer park manager was like,

oh, yeah, I heard about how Frankie was threatening to go tie Timothy to a truck, and this guy Willard Sanders, who was what? Willard Scott's brother? That's not the way first names work. And if you saw the footage of this man, you would say there was no reason. He had been Frankie Gebhardt's neighbor and said that Frankie had told him over a few beers that Bill had stabbed Timothy and he'd chained Timothy up and drug him up and down the power line. Yeesh. Willard says he did report that to the police about a week after Frankie told him and the police didn't do shit.

Yeah, that checks out. Yeah. Yeah. police didn't do shit. Yeah, that checks out. Yeah. Yeah. And when this investigation reopened in 2017, Willard was kind of perplexed. He said, I mean, if they wanted to do something, seems to me like they'd have done it 30 years ago. And for his interview with 2020, he pulled out all the stops, camo hat, white tank top, a mean-looking dog sitting in his lap that couldn't have weighed more than eight pounds. As more people came forward, a clearer picture emerged. It seems there were kind of two basic motives for this crime.

The first was that Timothy had sold marijuana in the white part of town, and it seems like maybe he ripped these guys off at some point. And so there was some anger over that. Then there was the fact that he was dating this white woman who one source said that maybe Frankie had been dating her. Who cares? Yeah. Anyway, so perhaps it was these two things combined that led to this murder. So now they had plenty of people who could all say that Frankie had bragged about killing

Timothy, but they still had no physical evidence. So they did a search of Frankie's trailer and seized like 60 knives. But Frankie, who couldn't keep his dumb mouth shut to save his life, bragged to someone that the police had taken a bunch of knives from his home, but that he'd disposed of the evidence a long time ago. Cool. Finally, investigators did feel like they had enough to make arrests. So they arrested Frankie and Bill, and they charged them with murder, felony murder, aggravated assault, aggravated battery, and concealing the death of another, which I'd never heard it phrased like that.

When did they conceal the death? I wonder if it's like by lying about it. I don't really know that charge. What about a hate crime? I wonder if it was too hard to get that. Okay. We'll get to more, but it's going to be some circumstantial stuff here. Okay.

So they also arrested Sandra Bunn, Frankie's sister, and Lamar Bunn, Frankie's nephew, for obstruction of justice. And Gregory Huffman, who used to be an officer in the Spalding County Sheriff's Office, and he was charged with obstruction and violating his oath of office. Oh, shit. Yeah. So it was believed that they tried to help Frankie. Good God. I couldn't find any recent articles on any of these fuckers. So, I mean, any of these wonderful people.

Yeah. So I'm wondering if nothing came of these charges. people. So I'm wondering if nothing came of these charges. I would guess that those those fringe people probably there wasn't enough to. Yeah. By the way

some people don't like that Frank's arrest was a bit of a photo shoot. So I am interested in what you think of this. He's already in jail when he was arrested for this crime. Oh yeah. So he's already in jail. But you know they wanted to make this into a think of this. Okay. You know, he's already in jail when he was arrested for this crime. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so he's already in jail. But, you know, they wanted to make this into a bit of a photo op.

So they took him out in his little prison jumpsuit. They rearrested him outside. And then they, like, walked him around out front in his little jumpsuit so that the media could get pictures of him. That seems kind of... I agree. I think it seems kind of silly. I mean, I'm not mad about it, but it does seem kind of stupid agree i think it seems kind of silly i mean i'm not mad about it but it does seem kind of stupid unnecessary a little theatrical a little bit of a play for the media yeah but i mean hey these douchebags evaded justice for 34 years so yeah's absolutely true. Yeah. So these two men would have to face their days in court.

But Marie Green Broder, the chief assistant district attorney, was kind of shit in her pantsuit because this case still wasn't super strong. Yes, all these people had come forward, but like every last one of them was a convicted felon. Plus there was hardly any physical evidence left over. All they had were Timothy's jeans, his underwear, and a rock, which I assume had been used. I assume, yeah.

But they knew that at one point Frankie had bragged that he'd disposed of evidence in the well behind his trailer. So Marie, who wears beautiful red matte lipstick that looks wonderful with her dark brown hair, was like, we need to get into that well. So they sent Timmy. I wish I could pull off red lipstick. You totally could.

No. I don't think so. Why not? Because it's too much. I wear too much other makeup. You have to do like a little bit of a simpler makeup if you're also going to do a bold lip. What if you just tried it one day? Hmm.

Hmm. Hmm. Sounds dangerous. Yes. How dare you suggest something like that? No, I think it would look so good. Next, okay, next Zoom call, I'll wear red lipstick. I'm not going to do that.

What? What are you afraid is going to happen? I don't know. Hmm. What if I get it on my teeth? That's what I think is going to happen? I don't know. Hmm. What if I get it on my teeth? That's what I think is going to happen. That's your big fear, that you'll get it on your teeth? Yeah.

Well, then you just, you know, get it off. I don't know. It seems pretty risky. Man. It does feel like I've just asked you to go skydiving. You're saying what if I just put it on?

Just like that? Just put it on? And look like a whore all day? Huh? Is that what you want from me? No, I think it would look nice on you. Oh, my God. Do you know how many times I've almost bought you lip stuff just for you to try, but then I'm like, she'll never try it.

It's. I am. I'm weird about the lip stuff. I think part of it is because I do, like, weird stuff with my lips all day. And so. What the fuck do you do? It's like a fidgety thing. Like, I chew on my lips.

I, like, my lips. So, putting on lipstick, it's just. Yeah, but you've never done it before. So, how do you know? I've worn. Do you think I've never worn lipstick in my life? When was the last time you put on lipstick? I could not tell you. Uh-huh. Do you wear I've never worn lipstick in my life? When was the last time you put on lipstick? I could not tell you.

Uh-huh. Do you wear lipstick every day? Yeah, I always put it on in the morning, but then it comes off. Like you're a 50s housewife? Like when I do the rest of my makeup. Put your face on with your lips? That's right. I've got to keep Norman happy.

Now you're trying to shame me for my lipstick. No, I'm not. I apologize. I'm not trying to shame you. I show the lipsticks for me. And you know it's not because you've tried it. Not one time. And it was terrible.

You know, people say that we go on tangents. I don't know what they are talking about. Oh, shit. This is very pertinent information. So Marie, who wears beautiful red lipstick, she's so brave, you know. I think she does other daring things as well. Like what? Like wears eyeliner with it.

Oh, what? I know. So one day, a bunch of investigators got together, and they went over to Frankie's place to dig in his well. Meanwhile, Brandy Abercrombie, who was Bill Moore's daughter, and Frankie, yeah, what you got? Brandy Abercrombie? I know. Is that your dream name? She sounds like the coolest Brandy Abercrombie I know is that your dream name she sounds like the coolest Brandy I've ever heard of oh no I mean she's related to both these guys so okay take it back it's too late

ew god that was me sucking it back in. You know what? That felt like I was at a bad party where someone was trying to eat a Jell-O shot for the first time. So Brandy knew her family was not involved in this crime. Is this an I or a Y, Brandy? It's a Y. Just as I suspected. You suspected she was the coolest Brandy you'd ever met. Okay, but Brandy Abercrombie?

It sounds pretty cool, doesn't it? It sounds pretty cool. Her dad was a- I like girls who wear Abercrombie. If I had one wish. All right. Her dad was a good man and a hard worker, and he'd never been violent. Yeah.

I don't know, Brandy Abercrombie. So they started digging in the well, and Brandy was nearby watching the whole thing from a distance, and she was pissed. And the media was there to capture the whole thing and they went and talked to Brandy and she said that the fact that the investigators were over there digging in her uncle's well was bright and shining star evidence of the extent that they want to go to

to attack my family. Or to, like, investigate a 30-year-old hate crime. Right. But you're the victim. Potato, potato. The interviewer asked her, do you think they're going to find anything in that well? And she said,

I do not. Nothing but a bunch of dirt. But I'm interested to see how much dirt they can pull out of it. She's still the coolest brandy you've ever heard of. No. I'm way cooler than she is. I do

Harry Potter Legos. I bet she doesn't even own a Harry Potter Lego set. I bet she doesn't even know what house she belongs to. Meanwhile, over at the well, Prosecutor Marie was a ball of nerves because, you know, what if they did all

this and they only found dirt? For a while, that's all they found. Dirt and gravel. Dirt. And gravel. Dirt. Dirt. And gravel. Dirt. And gravel. Dirt. And gravel. That was a real game of chicken. Like, who's gonna stop her?

Yeah. But finally, they hit burn trash and they found a broken knife and on top of that an adidas shoe which matched what timothy's family said he was wearing the night he went missing and a shirt that was riddled with stab marks. Was it Timothy's shirt? Well, how do you know? It's been in a well for 34 years. Okay, this is how you know. You make a diagram, right, of where the stab wounds are and match it up with the shirt, right?

I mean, you could in theory, like, but this thing was in tatters. I mean, again, can't stress this enough. Bottom of a well for 34 years, Brandy. Abercrombie. They also found a chain that, yeah. So it was enough to move forward. And so in June of 2018, Frankie guphart's trial began fresh yeah i mean it is kind of a fresh one right off the bat things got a little dicey

judge w fletcher sams you know how i hate it when they start their names with an initial. Let's just cut the initial. Just go by Fletcher. Just go by Fletcher Thames. Fletcher's a cool name. I agree. Yeah. Anyway. You can call me Fletch. I like names that have nicknames.

You do. I really do. What is it about a nickname that appeals to you? I think it's because my name doesn't have a nickname. Bra. No. My nickname is Bran. And, like, that's just, like, cutting a couple letters off.

It's not, like, a cool. Well, that's often what a nickname is. Unless you're insane and it's, like, a Peggy Margaret situation. I'll call you Isabel. And that can be. I don't like that. I don't want to be called that. You know, you don't always get to choose

your nickname. T-Bone. Please call me T-Bone. T-Bone. So, you know, Judge W. Fletcher Sams, kicked things off by being like, hey, do we have any witnesses in the courtroom?

I think I've been to his warehouse. That's his club, actually. Oh, you're right. A little nicer than the People's Choice Club, which has a Halloween-y vibe. Anyway, a few people raised their hands and he was like, okay, I need you all to leave because you can't see this stuff that we're doing here. You need to be sequestered. Blah, blah, blah. And Brandy Abercrombie was one of the witnesses who had to leave.

So the prosecution started in on their opening statements. witnesses who had to leave. So the prosecution started in on their opening statements, and then someone popped into the judge's ear and was like, Your Honor, one of the witnesses is watching this all go down on a live stream outside the courtroom. And the judge was like, what the fuck? I mean, he didn't say it, but you know, it was the vibe. He was like, oh, my stars. And he sent the jury out of the room, and he had freaking Brandy come back in.

And he was like. Freaking Brandy. Always causing trouble. And he's like, what did I just tell you? And she's like, I don't know. I'm confused. Where am I? And he was like, sure, Jan.

And he held her in contempt of court. 20 days in jail. Fuck. Do you remember when people used to call it Amber Cromby and Fitch? No reason that I'm asking. I'm just kidding. Yes, I do. I do remember.

Stuff like that annoys me way more than it should. Yeah, absolutely. I had a boss who used to call Chipotle Chipotle. And it drove me up the fucking wall. My sister, Kim, calls it Chipotle. What's worse? Where the fuck's the ass kim why don't we make it shepard just really so the prosecution kicked off their case with a testimony from Warren Tillman.

He's a medical examiner, and he talked about Timothy's wounds and how he'd basically been tortured and left to bleed out. Former police officer Oscar Jordan testified about racism in Griffin. You know, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. There was racism. Yeah. It's all gone now. racism. Yeah. It's all gone now. By the way, they showed some footage of a recent, like,

I think it was like a city council thing where people were trying to get a Confederate history month. Yeesh. Yep. Anyway, former police officer Jesse Gates testified about warning Timothy about dating white women in Griffin

County. And Talisa Coggins, Timothy's sister, testified about the brick that was thrown at the family home. And of course, then there was the parade of convicted felons who all said that Frankie had bragged about killing Timothy. So Christopher Vaughn, you know, child molester, talked about how Frankie had told him that he and Bill stabbed Timothy multiple times and, quote, drug him up and down the power line. And Frankie's defense attorney, Larkin Lee.

Oh, boy. Oh, that is a cool last name. Well, and get ready for this. He's also a bald white guy with facial hair. Facial hair. Fuck. He asked Christopher about his criminal history and was like, hey, you know, did you try to get some kind of deal in exchange for your testimony? And Christopher was like, yeah, I asked about it, but they didn't promise me anything.

The prosecution also called Robert Smith another convicted felon slash family friend. And he had the same story. He'd been told that they killed Timothy. They'd drug him and gutted him. Oh, my gosh. And then he started singing. What? Robert Smith? Yes.

He's the lead singer of The Cure. This is the second time I've made this joke with that name. And you still don't get it. I'll be honest, though. It's not a joke for you. It's not. Because you don't know who the cure are flies way over my head

I mean I've heard of the cure very good could I pick out the band very distinct look Robert Smith does

but a very indistinct name that's true but he's got like crazy dark hair and he wears like black lipstick

lipstick yeah what the hell yes my god True. But he's got like crazy dark hair and he wears like black lipstick. Lipstick? Yeah. What the hell? Yes. My God. Is he a maniac? Are you scandalized every time you see his picture?

I am. So, you know, he had the same story that, you know, he'd been singing for the cure and then he found out about Timothy. Keep in mind, a key argument for the defense was that all these people who were coming forward with stories about Frankie and Bill were just people with vendettas. This was their get out of jail free card. And so the defense jumped up and was like, oh, you decided to pop up with this valuable information when you were incarcerated? In the 33 years that you were sitting on this information, why didn't you come forward then? And Robert said, in an amazingly condescending voice,

well, for your information, sir, I've been in and out of prison for 20 years. Oh my gosh, that's amazing. So who's the idiot now? The prosecution called a terrifying guy named Patrick Douglas, who is an Aryan Nations member and convicted felon. Oh, for fuck's sake. And Brandy, don't get any ideas, but he is... No, don't you dare say he's a bald guy with facial hair.

He's definitely a bald white guy with facial hair. And Patrick said that Frankie told him he was a member of the KKK. Did Frankie say relax? Oh, my God. Scott Johnston was another of Frankie's defense attorneys. And get a load of this. He was some bald white guy with facial hair. It got to the point where I was watching this episode,

just cracking up every time a new guy came on the screen. It was like, well, this looks like 12 other guys in this episode. In his questioning of Jared, the GBI agent, Scott was like, hmm, interesting. You pulled up clothing from that well, but you didn't send it off for testing, did you? And Jared was like, no, we didn't. No, because it's been in a fucking well for

30 years. Okay, you don't get to pull that, because I had to pull that on you. I learned, though. The prosecution later questioned a witness who pointed out that, you know, these items weren't tested because they'd been stored in a fucking well. I don't think you can say they were stored in a well.

I mean, in a way, like, placed. No, I don't think anybody put them there for good keeping. Yeah, in a way, that was his good keeping, is the thing people say. Housekeeping. Good housekeeping. keeping like yeah in a way that was as good keeping as i think people say housekeeping good housekeeping you put the evidence from all your murders in a well and then brag about it like an idiot yeah and then get really upset 30 years later right this is the formula that i recommend in good housekeeping magazine the defense raised the point that the hard evidence that the prosecution presented was virtually non-existent. Are you okay?

Yeah, why? What's happening? Nothing. You were looking at something. Oh, I've got a picture of Robert Smith. You weirdo. Now I'd like to correct my earlier statement. He wears black eye makeup and fish just in.

What? Red lipstick! Is it too much, Brandy? It is. This is my fear. This is where my fear comes from. Okay, let's see it. I'm going to look like this if I wear both heavy eyeliner and red lipstick.

Okay, so then you take one off, and that's the end of it, right? Right, I've got to take the red lipstick off. I can't not do the eyeliner. Okay, that's fine. But and that's the end of it, right? Right, I've got to take the red lipstick off. I can't not do the eyeliner. Okay, that's fine. But then that's the end of it. Like that's the worst thing that happens is like you look in the mirror and you don't really like it. So you take it off. No.

Okay, this is kind of like the time when you tried fried pickles. The pickle that haunted my mouth for three days? Yeah, see, in my mind it's like, well, you take one bite, you don't like it, you drink some water, and it's done for. In your world, the pickle haunts your mouth for days. Haunts my mouth for three days. And that lipstick would haunt your mouth for weeks, years. Probably, yeah. Decades.

So, you know, the defense is like, the prosecution presented, you know, virtually non-existent evidence. Sure, they waived part of a steak knife that had been in Frankie's trash in the 80s. But there was no proof that it was the murder weapon. Me. But it was right where he bragged about disposing of the stuff. Yeah, but I think it's a fair point. I mean, but I mean, it's right there with the shirt and the sneaker. Yeah. Yeah, but I think it's a fair point. I mean, it's right there with the shirt and the sneaker.

But Larkin Lee also told 2020, you know, they found a chain in that well, but they also found a bucket and a pulley and they didn't match the chain up to those two items, which would make sense to be in a well together. Okay. That's actually kind of a well together. Okay.

That's actually kind of a solid argument. Oh, I think it's super solid. Yeah. Like my abs. Why did you flex your arm and then say my abs? I didn't. I don't know what you're talking about. In the trial, the defense only called two witnesses.

Both of them were GBI agents, all with the aim of showing that the evidence in this case wasn't any stronger than it had been in 1983. Yeah, I would argue it's less strong than it was in 1983. Yeah. Yeah. But they didn't have enough to convict then and they don't now. Am I right? I mean, that's what they should say. and they don't now.

Am I right? I mean, that's what they should say. In closing arguments, the defense told the jury that everyone at the Spalding County Jail had considered this their ticket out of jail. That's not what he should have said. What? Their get out of jail free card.

Well, I'm sure that is. It has a much better ring to it. It probably is what he said. I'm just paraphrasing. Give the guy a break. Is this because he's a bald white guy with facial hair? Like, you just want to bend over backwards for this? That's not how I do it.

Okay. Jesus Christ. Brandy's fantasy man said, It's just trash. That's what those witnesses amount to. That's what all your jailhouse witnesses amount to is just trash. The same thing that was found in that well. Ooh, that's pretty good.

District Attorney Ben Coker told the jury that the investigation in 1983 had been horrific and shameful. He said, there's no question that the sentiment was that Timothy Coggins was just another dead black man. He said, this crime screams hatred. It screams anger, but make it scream justice. Ooh, that's very good too. Okay. Oh, that's very good, too. Okay. So the jury went into deliberation, and they later said that they really took the defense's argument into account. They'd made some good points.

But then they added up the number of times that Frankie admitted to the crime over the years, and they came up with, like, 17. Yeah. So, yeah, they found him guilty. Yeah. And the Coggins family was so relieved. Finally, after all these years, they'd gotten some justice. Was his mom still alive? No.

You lie to me? Huh? Well, this is actually kind of cool. So Timothy Coggins' niece, Heather, came forward and thanked the court. And she said her family could now go back to Tim's grave and her grandmother's grave and say, you can rest in peace now. The judge, who I very much enjoyed, sentenced Frankie to life in prison and wrapped things up with a little bit of spice. You know what he said? What? Hopefully, sir, you have stabbed your last victim.

Oh, shit! Oh, shit! That is good! Are you ready for the bad news? I guess. Frankie is also a bald white guy with facial hair, and now I just don't see a future for the term! is also a bald white guy with facial hair.

And now I just don't see a future for the term. What will David think of these jokes? Is he not going to like them? Oh, no, he won't care at all. He'll think it's funny. Okay. David's got an excellent sense of humor. I know this.

Yeah. But I don't know if he would like the idea of me talking about you running off with other men, going off to Georgia looking for a soul to steal. You know, could be kind of scary. Yeah. He might be like, oh my gosh, if Brandy goes to Griffin, Georgia, there's like, I don't know, 90% of the men there are just like her type. I ain't got no type.

Bad bitches is the only thing that I like. I mean, obviously you're friends with me, so that helps. With Frankie's trial concluded, it was Bill Moore's turn. But things got off to a rocky start because Bill couldn't afford an attorney. So one was appointed to him and his attorney was a black man. And Bill was not happy about it. Oh, my gosh. But Bill's attorney, Harry Charles, was kind of funny.

And he later said, you know, to me, it wasn't a matter of guilty or innocent. I would represent someone who killed my mother. Wow. Yeah. He said, I took an oath to represent my client to the best of my abilities. So I have to strip myself from being a black man and be a lawyer, which I don't understand how the hell you do that. But all right. So Harry reviewed everything that had happened at Frankie's trial.

And he was like, wow, you know, that guy got life in prison and the evidence was pretty circumstantial. So he told Bill, I think that if we take this case to trial, you're going to get life in prison. And he walked Bill through his logic. And finally, Bill said, OK, well, you see if you can get me a plea deal. Yeah. And Harry did. And on August 16th, 2018, Bill pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter and concealing the death of another. He was sentenced to 20 years.

Afterward, as Timothy Coggins' family was leaving the court, so they've got footage of this. They're all really happy and they kept telling each other, that's it, y'all, that's it, y'all. I mean, it was just kind of wild after all these years. Yeah. That's it, y'all. I mean, it was just kind of wild after all these years. And Brandy Abercrombie came up to them crying. And she said to Timothy's niece, Heather, I'm sorry this happened to your family.

I really am. But I feel like. And Heather just cut her off. And she goes, that's your dad. And you see the good things about him and the good grandfather he is and the good dad he is. And then this, you know, it's, it's kind of, you know, we know that no one wins here. Wow. Our family lost 35 years ago. We know that your family has lost as well. Nobody wins. Oh, I wish you could see the footage of this, because as she's saying this, Talisa comes up and hugs Brandy. Wow. And eventually, you know, the Coggins family,

they're all right there. And they embraced her in a group hug. And Heather later said, you know, we're not angry at her. This is something her father did. She had no control. She also said that Brandy, like, really didn't have a lot of family support. Like, the Coggins family, they were all there. You know, they were, you know, watching this whole thing. And Brandy was kind of alone. But let's not end on that note. Because although they were happy to see Timothy's killers locked up, Heather Coggins said that this isn't true justice.

She said, justice would have come 34 years ago. The people who are accused of doing this were able to live their lives, have kids, have grandkids, see the joys of that. And that's something Timothy never got the chance to do. Yeah. And that's the story of the lynching of Timothy Coggins. Oh, shit. Yeah. So let me read the title

of that article that I refused to tell you earlier. It's called A Brutal Lynching, An Indifferent Police Force, and a 34-Year Wait for Justice. Wow. Yeah, that would have given the whole kitten caboodle. The whole kitten play away.

Kitten play. You know what I think we should do right now? Should we take questions from our Discord? We sure do. Okay, but how do you get in the Discord? You sign up on our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. You get in the Discord, you chitty chat the day away, you get those sweet, sweet bonus episodes where we cry at the same time.

Your hair is touching the mic, by the way. Quit it. Do you think people can hear you? Yes, quit it. I'm sorry. Excuse me. Get those luscious locks out of here. Froghat wants to know, how do you feel about bathroom beach decor?

Does this mean... I know exactly what this means. A bathroom with beach-themed decor in it? Mm-hmm. Is this bad? I have strong judgments. What's your strong feelings? Okay, I think if you live near a beach, go forth.

Do good. Mm-hmm. Go forth. Do good. If you live in the Midwest, why would we pretend that the rooms that house our toilets are actually beaches? Well, son of a beach, I kind of have a beach-themed bathroom. Every Midwestern lady does. I have, it's not super beach-themed, but our half bath on our main floor has a picture that's kind of an abstract version of a

beach. It's like an oil painting that's just like You got some shells? No, there's no shells. But you do like a little squinty. You're like, oh, it's the beach. I'm at the beach. That's it. There's no shells. There's no... You want shells, though. I do.

I would thought about getting like an anchor to hang on the wall. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yep. That's very on brand. I mean, are we two Midwestern women if one of us does not have a beach-themed bathroom? Kristen Hates Shelly wants

to know, Brandy, do you still not like pictures of kids with food on their face? Correct. I do not. Even when it is my own child. And I'm also like obsessive about cleaning her face while she eats. Leave that baby alone. She ain't done nothing wrong. Most embarrassing Halloween moment you've experienced?

Miss Alexander Casey wants to know. One time I went trick-or-treating with a friend and at every house that friend tried to give the person a compliment and one of those included, I like your kid. That sounds

like a polite, super future pedophile of America. My honest to God initial thought was, you went trick-or-treating without me? future pedophile of America. My honest to God initial thought was, you went trick-or-treating without me? No, you're the fucking friend. I know.

As soon as you started to get into the story, I knew what was happening. Lance Bass wants to know, Kristen, I know you love Costco. Any thoughts on Aldi? They also have a cult following. Love Aldi. Do you?

I'm not familiar with Aldi. Let me tell you something about Aldi. You want some good quality chocolates? Aldi. Very good cookies? Aldi. Well, because they're European based, right? Yeah. Yeah, great prices.

I didn't go to them as much in the pandemic times because it is crowded as fuck in there. But yeah, I like Aldi. Okay. Grazing for Cheese Sticks wants to know, not podcast related, but I'm in Canada and just had my second Pfizer shot today and it got me

thinking about the states. Do y'all get the vaccine for free? How does that work? Yes! It's like the one health care thing we get for free. And yet so many people have refused it. Yes, the vaccine is free here. Oh, God. Betwixt my titties wants to know, Kristen, since you and your family lived in Mexico for a while, do you or any of your family speak Spanish? Okay. So Kyla, here's the thing. It's true what they say. If you don't use it, you lose it.

I have lost it. My parents have lost it. Kyla kept it. Yeah. She studied it all through school. I think she double majored in Spanish. Yeah. And other things as well.

Yeah, I assume it wasn't both Spanish. Spanish and Spanish. I thought it was overkill, personally. So, yeah, she still speaks it. I'm jealous. Yeah. I know a few words here and there. Oh, Peanut Butter on Top says, Brandy, can you please sing a little bit of Christmas Shoes for my boyfriend, Adam?

His birthday is coming up, and I'm sure he'd love to hear it. I'm sure he would. Adam. Adam. Happy birthday. It was almost Christmas time, and there I stood in another line. Oh, God. You're starting from the beginning.

Trying to buy my last gift or two. Not really in the Christmas mood. Imperfectly KJ says, We all know how Kristen feels about age gaps in romantic relationships. How do you feel about age gaps in friendships? And if you feel differently about it, why? I have a very close circle of friends and we range in age from 30 to 75. I have never in my life had a better group of friends.

I love age gaps in friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. I love old ladies. Yeah. Do you have a reason? I don old ladies. Yeah. Do you have a reason? I don't know.

It's funny. So I feel like you always make a lot of friends at work. And I always worked with a lot of older ladies at work. So became friends with older women there. And my critique partner for my novel is like 70. And we get dinner. I almost said lunch because we do the early bird special. Yeah, you guys do early bird dinner.

Uh-huh. Anyway. Yeah. Love it. Dog Lady Lawyer wants to know what random ass topic did you become interested in while you were in elementary school that still fascinates you to this day? Mine is ancient Egypt slash Egyptians and the Titanic. Same. Yes. Exact same. Yeah. Is and the Titanic. Same. Yes.

Exact same. Yeah. Is this a thing? It must be. It must be, right? I mean, Titanic, the movie, helped us a lot there.

Yeah, that was just the time. Ancient Egypt. Loved it. Loved it. Do you remember when we went and saw the Egypt exhibit

at the Nelson? Yes, and every time I go back there, I start with the Egypt exhibit. Yes, of course you fucking do, because what else would you do? Yeah. Well, if you've got the Monets there and stuff. You've got to see the, no.

Yeah. No. Mm-mm. No, you've got to see the ancient Egypt. Oh. Sarah L. says, Brandy, since when did you start calling DP, DP? I assume when you were a kid, you called him Mr. Pitts. Was it odd calling your friend's dad by his first name?

When did you start calling? I don't know. I don't ever recall calling him Mr. Pitts. I'm sure that was like, I'm sure you probably called him Mr. Pitts one time. And then he was like, yeah, please. It's DP. Yeah. Please call me DP.

Please call me DP. I mean, we've called him DP for a very long time. Yeah, it's been very upsetting for a very long time. But yeah, I think you've always called my parents Daryl and Sherry, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is weird

because their names are Tim and Lisa. Shabam, shabam, double whammy says, I'm bisexual and already 25. When do you think I'll do my first murder?

In a minute. Nice try. That's just her covering up her work. She's clearly already... She hasn't done it yet. Uh-huh. We know the type.

Clark Breckenridge, a.k.a. Lil' Nut. You've mentioned you like road trips to Colorado. So what are some of your favorite cities, places to visit there? I mean, we've talked about it on this episode already. Estes Park.

Fucking love Estes Park. I also love Aspen. I love this trail that I want to take you on. It's really... You get great pictures on this little scenic outlook. Is it a picture or are you just going to like hand something to me or like... I better take some time to get my story straight and to get some insurance policies. Scranton, what?

The Electric City wants to know, Brandy, what are your thoughts on the curly girl method? Ooh. I have thoughts. Controversial. I hate it. What do you hate about it? Why would you get your hair soaking wet to style it? That makes no fucking sense

okay i've calmed down now my goodness any other issues with it um that's my main one what do you got what do you got do you do it so you've done it before i have done it in the In the past. I have taken some stuff from the curly girl method, left some stuff. Do you do a plop? Are you a plopper? No, that doesn't work for me. Oh, okay. That sounds disgusting.

Why does so much with the curly girl method sound disgusting? No poo? Yeah. Do we not have time to just say no shampoo? Instead we have to say no poo? That's my other problem with it is like the no shampoo. I cannot. Especially when you're going to be putting curl products into the hair.

No. Poo is necessary. And then plop. Poo and plop. Poo and plop. So, yeah, the plop doesn't work for me. But I don't want you to fly over the table at me right now. I have found that putting product in my hair when it is really wet actually does work better.

You're just diluting the product if your hair is soaking wet when you put product in it. I mean, all I can tell you is from my personal experience, when I do my hair curly, I put the product in before it has dried and or before it has even gotten like to that damp. Oh, man. She's not even looking at me. I just can't. You are diluting the product. If there is that much water in your hair when you put the product in. Ma'am, I'm sorry.

I am simply telling you what has worked for me. What was the other hair product one that was in here? Somebody wanted your thoughts on some product line that I've never heard of. Oh, Lanza? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What the hell is that? So it's, I mean, they make styling products.

They have a color line. I've not used their color. I do like their styling products. There's one that I really like. It's called Air Paste. And it's like pomade in a can. Ah. It's pretty fabulous.

Why is it better that it's in a can? Well, so it works. It's really cool because it's like a spray. Like you can spray it in a short style to really like piece it out. Oh, okay. Without having to like work a whole pomade through. So you use it when the hair is sopping wet and you just spray it in? Absolutely not.

Good, everyone. She's going to kill me. It makes no sense. You know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna open up my product, pour half of it out, and fill it back up with water. You know what?

There's only one solution to this. We will now go on a trip together. And you will be with me every day and we'll do experiments on my hair. You have no time to say no. I've already canceled all your plans. You must. We are leaving right now.

We're leaving right now. Your bags are packed. I've packed you one pair of underwear. I've got one black shirt. It'll do fine. Hey, should we do Supreme Court inductions? I believe we shall. Are you surprised that we're doing Supreme Court inductions again?

If you'd like to get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level. Or higher. Yeah, or exactly. And then we'll say your name and your favorite cookie because we've been doing that for three years now. At the end of an episode. I like doing the cookies. I like the cookies too.

So as I just mentioned, we're going to read names and favorite cookies. Why would you reiterate that? I don't know. This is like Kyla's double major in Spanish and Spanish. Spanish. It's redundant. Catherine Crow. Whoopie Pies.

Lisa Lynn. Chocolate Chip. Serena Leakin. My Mom's Pumpkin Chocolate Chip Cookies. Melissa Collins. Oatmeal Cream Pies. I think that's a cookie. That's definitely a cookie.

Yeah. She wrote in here, like, is that really a cookie? I think that's a cookie. That's definitely a cookie. Yeah. She wrote in here, like, is that really a cookie? I think it is a cookie. We appreciate you taking this before our court. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Sarah Leet. Warm chocolate chip.

Mm. Absolutely. Alyssa Taylor. White chocolate macadamia nut. Natalie Chappell. Double tree chocolate chip cookies. Yes, from the hotel. They're so fucking good.

There's something about an unexpected cookie that just tastes better. So good. Caitlin Sherwood. Raw Homemade Cookie Dough with Raw Eggs Because Mama Didn't Raise No Little Bitch. Anne-Marie Boisseau. Oatmeal Chocolate Chip. Renee Lighthall. Sugar Cookies from Elaine's Cookies.

I think that's Eileen's cookies. It sure is. Come on, Eileen. Make us some cookies. Oh, God. Chocolate peanut butter chip. Double doozies. What's a double doozy?

I don't know, but I would try it. Cammie Gronholtz. Girl Scout Thin Mints. Laura Zarate. Dulce de Leche Besitos from Porto Allie My Famous Homemade Chocolate Chip Cookies I should probably put quotations around my because I'm pretty sure I found the recipe online

but everybody loves it when I make them. Alright, very good. Sonic Freak Dark Chocolate Reese's Pieces Cookies Oh, okay, okay Nora Jean No Bake Cookies Zephyr Grey

Don Bun Oatmeal Raisin Cookies What's Don Bun? What is Don Bun? Alright Alright, Don Bun Caitlin Campbell The Chocolate Chip Cookies Our Family Friend Don Used to Make She's gone now.

Fuck cancer, but I'll never forget how perfect those were. Jamie Fuca. Amish made snickerdoodle whoopie pies. Oh, we have two whoopie pies in the same induction cycle? Does it seem suspicious? It does. I think this is rigged. We started with a whoopie pie

and ended with a whoopie pie. Started with a whoopie pie and ended with a whoopie pie. Started with a whoopie pie and now we're here. Anyway. Welcome to the Supreme Court. We didn't do that right. Welcome to the Supreme

Court. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. On Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week.

When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the episode of 2020, In the Cold Dark Night, plus the article, A Brutal Lynching and Indifferent Police Force, A 34 34-Year Wait for Justice by Wesley Laurie for GQ and reporting from the

Atlanta Journal-Constitution, AGC. I got my info from an episode of Dateline, ChillingCrimes.com, CBS News, Mamma Mia, The Washington Post, The Rolling Stone, and The Court Record. Is that what Mamma Mia was about? Mamma Mia. Here I go again. Bye-bye. Off to Lester's Park.

For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.