Let's Go To Court! - 196: Internment Camps & a Bathtub Mystery

Episode Date: November 17, 2021

Before the attack on Pearl Harbor, Fred Korematsu led a fairly typical American life. His family went to church every Sunday. They owned a small business. The Korematsu family had always faced some level of racism, but nothing compared to the aftermath of the attack on Pearl Harbor. President Franklin Roosevelt ordered the relocation and incarceration of more than 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps. None of the people who were put in the camps had done anything wrong. There wasn’t even evidence that they’d *maybe* done anything wrong. In the face of this racist hysteria, Fred Korematsu stood firm. As a person with Japanese ancestry, he had been ordered to leave his home. But he refused.  Then Brandi tells us another terrifying story about a bathtub. At around 1 a.m. on April 27, 2012, Chad Cutler called 911. He told the dispatcher that he’d just discovered his wife, Lisa, blue and unresponsive in their bathtub. He guessed she’d been in there for a few hours. He claimed he’d fallen asleep after she got in the bathtub earlier that evening. But when paramedics arrived on the scene, they noticed that the bed in the master bedroom was still made. Chad was fully dressed, and eerily calm. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “U.S. v Korematsu,” by Douglas O. Linder for FamousTrials.com “Fred Korematsu Fought Against Japanese Internment in the Supreme Court… and Lost,” by Erick Trickey for Smithsonian Magazine “Fred Korematsu,” entry on Wikipedia “Internment of Japanese Americans,” entry on Wikipedia “Fred’s Story,” from the Fred T. Korematsu Institute In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Dead In The Water” episode Accident, Suicide, or Murder “'None Of It Made Any Sense': Illinois Mother's Murder Staged As Bathtub Drowning” by Sharon Lynn Pruitt, Oxygen “Relationships of Cutlers Focus of Trial” by Huey Freeman, Herald and Review “Chad Cutler Trial Focuses on Injuries” by Huey Freeman, Herald and Review “Cutler Jury Begins To Deliberate” by Huey Freeman, Herald and Review “Illinois Man Who Drowned Wife For Insurance Remains Jailed” Insurance News Net “People v. Cutler” casetext.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 25+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about Japanese-American internment.

And I'll be talking about another bathtub mystery. I'd like to address here that there is an exclamation point after internment here in your intro notes. You did not deliver any exclamation point. The truth is I'm really bummed out about this story. And I thought, maybe if I put it in an exclamation mark, I'll trick myself into thinking like, here we go. Yeah. Real pumped. No. About a Dermot Capps.

Turns out it's all just terrible. Yeah. And I'm going to start the show with it. So here we go. And I'm going to start the show with it. So here we go. Gosh, I feel like I had like a note to start off the thing, but now I don't know what it is. We ate pasta and my brain is just, oh my gosh.

Well, should we tell them that my pants are unbuttoned? We just started recording and Kristen was like, I think I have to undo my trousers. Which we joke about a lot on the show, but no one has ever actually done before. Well, I'm kind of the pioneer of this show. No, we had pasta. It was so good. We had bread. Then Norm was like, I need Oreos.

Yeah, I was going to stop and get Oreos. Oh, my God. And so now I'm about to bust and take a nap and tell you a story about internment camps. This is going to be the first episode where Kristen just passes out face first into her computer. Would you continue with your story? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm just kind of dead weight on this show. Every now and again, I just insert a like, whirr-o in your...

Oh, you bitch! My gosh, this is terrible. You know what? I don't think murderers should get away with it. Yeah. Oh, in the bathtub, huh? That sounds like a real sticky situation. away with it. Yeah. Oh, in the bathtub, huh? Hmm. Hmm. That sounds like a real sticky situation.

Ew, why is it sticky in the bathtub? That's the last place it should be sticky. Do you know what people do in bathtubs? Well, I mean, you're probably going to tell us something terrible in a bathtub. Yeah. Don't you think people do sticky things in bathtubs? What are you referring to?

If anything, we wash the stick off in a bathtub i bet you do okay that's enough i think it's pretty interesting that i'm the one with my pants undone and yet you're the more inappropriate one right now how's that happening happening? You said wash the stick off, and I'm just supposed to leave that hanging in the air? If you were a true lady, you would. I am not. Would you describe me as a lady? No. Brandy, fuck you. Oh, I know.

We're both crass with the sense of humor of 13 year old boys well you know that's when i get around you yeah i kind of go downhill but otherwise i'm a pretty good kid yeah otherwise i'm a pretty good kid oh my god how have i not told you this oh my god okay this is a true story of seven seven strangers picked a little house there's no there's no time to go into the real world okay my parents were out rving i can't remember where wisconsin someplace definitely not in wisconsin wyoming maybe question mark anyway they were in the United States. We know that for sure. Okay. So, you know, my dad, he's just like, you know, pageant queen goes around, talks to everyone.

He's everyone's friend. He's happy with whoever wins the pageant in the RV park. What? What's that? Some honking. Gosh, you were like a dog. You were so distracted. So he's meeting people. He meets this lady. What? What are you? Nothing. Continue. I'm engaged in the story. All right.

All right. So he meets this lady and they're like talking about their lives or whatever. They get into like, oh, what do your kids do? They're, you know, like the lady's a little younger than dad, but not by like a ton. Yeah. And so he talks about, you know, oh, my oldest daughter does a podcast. And she's like, oh, what's the podcast called? And he says, let's go to court. And she goes, oh, I tried to listen to that. Oh, no.

Apparently, her nephew loves us. Well, great. Loves us. She, not so much. Not so much. It wasn't for her. Not for her. I was just, I mean, I was truly honored that someone had listened to it.

That's pretty good, right? I tried to listen. I'm sure she was polite about it. But nonetheless, it was not for her. I also tried to listen to it once. Patty, this is pure crap. Could you cut this whole thing? I feel like I'm about to bust.

You okay? I feel like my bra's too tight. Now my pants are too loose. I mean, they're just... Do you need to change? No. Do you need to put on your one size too big pajamas? No.

The thing about me, Brandi, is that I'm a professional who ate too many Oreos. You only ate like one Oreo. That's not true. Oh. You must have been, you know, balls deep in the Oreos not noticing that I was

also balls deep right next to you. I was so balls deep in the Oreos that I didn't notice that your balls were also there. That's what you're saying?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Thank you. Yes. And you know, if you want to get balls deep in LGTC, you should join our Patreon.

How good was that? Yes, we'd love for you to be balls deep in us. Too far. Too far. We're starting out real rough this episode. As I've already said, I'm a lady. You've ruined everything. On our Patreon, we have bonus episodes.

28 of them. To get those, you just have to sign up at the $5 level. You also, by doing that, get into the Discord. Kristen, are you literally going to bust over there? I feel like it could come out of any hole. Oh, no. You know what would be real crazy? What?

As if just pasta came shooting out of your belly button right now. I mean, that would be like the best case scenario, wouldn't it? I think it might be. Anyway, if you're feeling more spendy than that, and why wouldn't you on this podcast? Get more gems like this? Yes, please. At the $7 level, you get all that other stuff. Plus, you get a sticker.

You get our lovely autographs. Value, you know, priceless. I like how I said value and you said yeah. There is some value. I thought you felt like it was a great value. You also get a monthly Zoom call with us. And if you can't make it to the Zoom call, you can watch the video and cry because you missed out. Yeah, that's exactly right.

Yep. Okay. Now, Brayden, I don't know if you know this. You did one to exactly right. Yep. Okay, now, Brayden, I don't know if you know this, you did one tier, I do another tier. Oh, so then I do this. Yeah, now I'm throwing it back.

And then, you know what? If that's not enough for you and it's probably not, we've got a final tier. It's the final tier. That would be the Bob Moss level. It's $10, but for the Lolo price of $10, you get all that stuff we already talked about.

Plus, you get your episodes a day early. I almost said a day free because I was so focused on your stupid singing over there. I was trying to be background music, and you just, like, could not continue. I couldn't handle it. You get your episodes a day early and you get them ad-free. Plus, that's not all, folks. You get 10% off merch. All right.

Woo-wee. We're kind of jacked up on Mountain Dew already. I know. And we, like, we just ate lunch at some Ore, and we are kind of a mess. I mean, you know, what can you do when your bra's too tight? Things are going to get wild. It's one of these, you know, bralette things. Oh, yeah.

It's cute. Don't worry. I know. I have a bra that's like a racerback situation with some lace. And then, like, halfway through the day, I just feel like it's like digging into my shoulders and I need it off immediately. And that's why they call you braless Brandy. I thought you were going to say like free tits McGee or something.

No, your name starts with a B, obviously. My name starts with a bra. Exactly. So we're going to stick with the bra theme. All right, Brady, you ready for something terrible? No. What would you rather hear? This terrible story or would you prefer to be hit in the face with pasta that came out of my belly button?

I would prefer to be hit in the face with pasta that came out of my belly button? I would prefer to be hit in the face with pasta that came out of your belly button. Bold choice. Bold choice. Okay, first off, the hugest of shout outs. You should lay that thing down flat. You know what? I have my way. You have yours.

Kristen's got her laptop so open. I bet that's as far back as it goes. It's not. Look at that. Could go back even further. I mean, not much. Not much. Anyway.

You think that cuts the glare down? It's all the better to see you with, my dear. Like, you know, I'm just kind of. Big bad wolf? That's right. Only sexy, obviously. Obviously. Because it's me.

But it just is hairy. Anyway. You got to get in for a wax man. Have to empty out the 401k. How else can I stall you? Yeah, really. Sorry. All right. Get to the... I'm with the Yeah, really. I'm sorry. All right.

Get to the... I'm with the chlorophyll. Chlorophyll? Are you quoting something that I don't understand? Yeah. What stupid movie? It's Billy Madison. Okay.

Yeah. Adam Sandler. Who knew? Okay. So, hugest of shout outs, although I did like Uncut Gems. See, why am I acting like he's listening to the podcast? Yeah, I don't think Adam Sandler's tuning in. No, all right.

Or like he would be hurt. Yeah. I don't think Adam Sandler gives a shit what you think about him, Kristen. Some woman. You know what? I just wish he wouldn't wear those baggy basketball shorts all the time. Yeah, take them off. Am I right?

That's where you were going with it? No. Oh, my mistake. Anyway, huge just a shout out to FamousTrials.com. Uncut gems, though. Am I right? That was just like an anxiety attack the entire movie. I'm going to fart in your face if you don't quit.

Don't do that. All right, I'll be good. As if I would fart in your face. I think you'd do it. I probably would. I'm just feeling so. You wouldn't get right in my face, but you'd come like right here and fart. I'm feeling so bad because like that lady at the, you know, RV place, like she's like, it's not for me. And I'm and I always wonder, like, I wonder what episode offended her.

This is going to do it for the vast majority of people. They'll be like, well, this is disgusting. Oh, all right. Famous trials, Doug EO. Mm hmm. Professor Douglas O. Linder. Yeah, my boy Doug E.O. Wrote up a little something about this case.

Loved it. Super helpful. Also, Smithsonian Magazine had something very helpful. And the Korematsu Institute had a very helpful write-up on this. Are you ready? I'm not. Hey, Brandy. Yeah.

I've got a fun idea. I don't think you do. How about we have a real light chat about one of the worst things America has ever done? Okay, great. Get ready because it's going to be horrible. We'll start the story with Fred Korematsu. Fred was born in 1919 in Oakland, California. And fun fact, according to famous trials, Fred was not his birth name. In fact, Fred was just the name that a teacher gave him when she couldn't pronounce his real name. And it just stuck for his entire life super cool yeah if you think that's really sad and racist wait till you get a load of the rest of this story oh great since fred is the

name he went by and it's the name his family used and continues to use i'm going to refer to him as fred but don't worry i will feel weird about it the entire time. Excellent. And I suggest you do the same. Don't worry. Fred's parents were Japanese immigrants, and they owned a flower nursery in East Oakland. So Fred and his three brothers worked at the flower nursery, and they attended local public schools. And they had what seems like a typical middle class American life. The family went to church every Sunday. Fred was a Boy Scout. And in high school, he joined the tennis team and the swim team and everything was just great. Except Fred and his family members couldn't like go to any of the nearby barbers because the barbers refused to cut their hair. And that sounds awful. But it makes sense when you realize that if a stylist

cuts the hair of a white person and then cuts the hair of an Asian person, the stylist will think they're about to sneeze. And so they'll just kind of turn slightly away from the client to sneeze. And when they sneeze, they will also shart. And that shart will drip down the stylist's legs, but they'll have no time to clean it up. And they'll have to just stand there inart. And that shart will drip down the stylist's legs, but they'll have no time to clean it up. And they'll have to just stand there in it. And that, Brandy, is how the alternative metal band Puddle of Mud got its name. So many things that I want to know. And the first is that that's not accurate.

No, it's all true. It came from my brain. And second, Puddle of Mud, that's a local band. I know it is. And they also are not good. Oh, wow. Why don't you take a dump on the home team, huh? But you can confirm that as a stylist, it's very important that you stick to one race and one race only.

No. Oh, so this is all just racist bullshit? That is racist bullshit. Uh-oh. Yes. I feel like we're going to get some more of that here coming soon. So you get the idea. There was racism afoot.

But Fred was living his life. He had a lot of friends and he loved to dance to big band music. Oh. Bam, bam, banana. Bam, bam big band music you know thank you you're welcome what's worse me doing big band music or puddle of mud oh that's close all right yeah puddle of mud or at least professional musicians well just because i haven't gotten my break yet. Well, you know, she fucking hates me. Na, na, na, na. I love that song. She fucking hates

me. That's Puddle of Mud, right? Yeah, it is. I had no idea you were such a Puddle of Mud fan, Kristen. They're the local band. So he loved his big band music and he had a girlfriend named Ida Boitano. Is that Brian Boitano's mom?

I don't believe so. What would Brian Boitano do? Skating for the gold. Ida's parents didn't approve of Fred, but in my opinion, that made their romance sexier than ever. Forbidden. Forbidden? Forbidden fruit. Now, okay, there we go.

Also, forbidden fruit. No, it'd be forbidden food. Fred and Ida were in love, and nothing could stop them. But then came World War II. In 1940, Congress instituted a peacetime draft. You're already making the face. Hang on tight. And on the very first day of the draft, Fred went and registered.

He wanted to fight for his country. Specifically, he wanted to join the Navy. And the Navy was like, oh my gosh, we would love to have you, except you've got stomach ulcers, which is an unusual way of saying you're Japanese American and we're super racist, but hey, whatever. Fred was undeterred. He wanted to help with the war effort, and if he couldn't join the military, he had to find another way.

So he got a job as a welder at a shipyard. And he was really good at that job. In fact, he was about to get a promotion. He was going to be a foreman. But then, and I don't understand how this happened, because he'd been working there for a little while.

I don't know. I guess they all of a sudden realized. That he was Japanese American? They hadn't taken note of that previously? The write-ups I've read on this are pretty vague, but it's basically like the union got mad maybe because all of a sudden he was about to get a leadership position and he got fired. But it was okay. Fred got another job. Got mad, maybe because all of a sudden he was about to get a leadership position, and he got fired. Okay. But it was okay. Fred got another job.

But he was hired while his supervisor was out on vacation, and when that guy came back from vacation, he took one look at Fred and was like, I don't think so. And Fred got fired. Wow. So Fred was having a tough time. And then came December 7th, 1941. Does that... Yeah, it's Pearl Harbor. Oh, wow. We've got a genius on our hands.

Fred and Ida were... A day that will live in infamy forever. Very good, Brandy. And Nathan Hale was there, think he sure was fred and ida were parked on a hillside in a car oh shit what were you listening they were listening to music oh uh-huh were they really or were they necking you know they used to say that neck they necking? You know, they used to say that, necking. Necking. What does that even mean?

Doesn't, I just picture like, I remember as a kid I would picture it like just rubbing your neck on somebody. Gross. But sexually, you know, obviously. Oh, obviously. Very sexual neck rubbing. But, you know, there's no time to discuss what they were doing. Bottom line is the music was interrupted with urgent news. Pearl Harbor, a U.S. naval base near Honolulu, had just been attacked by Japanese fighter planes.

More than 2,400 Americans died in the attack and about 1,000 were wounded. It was shocking. But don't worry. The United States handled it with a level head. For example. Don't worry about it, Brandi. See, like within a few hours of the attack, President Franklin Roosevelt announced that all Japanese immigrants over the age of 14 were enemy aliens. Great. These enemy aliens were dangerous all of a sudden. And you know what? Their homes could and should be searched at any damn time.

Twas the stop and frisk of its day. Yeah. Almost immediately, the Korematsu family felt the effects of this racist panic. Police barged into their homes and took all the family's flashlights. What? They're going to send signals? Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. What? Yeah, the government was convinced that Japanese Americans were going to like go to the shoreliners.

I don't know. With like flashlights. They even took the family's cameras. It was like anything that could light up. They thought they were going to signal to submarines somehow. Oh, gosh. Yeah. That's ridiculous.

No, Brandy. Better safe than sorry. Am I right? Oh, no. Oh, Brandy, better safe than sorry, am I right? No, no. See, here's the thing, though, Brandy. There was evidence to suggest that these American citizens had probably been using the flashlights to, you know, signal stuff to the enemy.

No, there wasn't. Yeah, they did shadow puppets. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And, you know, the police didn't stop there. They put a spotlight on the Korematsu's flower nursery in case those pansies got any ideas. They put a guard outside the Korematsu home. But none of these measures were enough. Because you know what?

of these measures were enough. Because you know what? When the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service attacked Pearl Harbor, they did so with help from Japanese Americans. Citation needed. Yeah, exactly. No, where's the proof

of that? Well, you know, I wish you wouldn't ask annoying, bitchy questions like that. These were very scary times because anyone who had been born in Japan or had parents who were born in Japan or had once thought about maybe going to Japan was the enemy. Yeah. You ready for a fun fact?

No, your fun facts are never fun. Yours are often not fun either. Columnist Walter Lippman, who was a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner and who invented the word stereotype and has a house named after him at Harvard, which houses the Nieman Foundation for Journalism, wrote, quote, The Pacific Coast is in imminent danger of a combined attack from within and without. That's dumb. It makes no goddamn sense. But who are we to question the man who popularized the term Cold War? Did he really?

He invented the word stereotype and he popularized the phrase Cold War. But he also said an attack from within and without, which doesn't make it sounds like you hear it. You're kind of like, oh, but then you go. Yeah. You ready for another fun fact? No, I think you are. You look like you're ready. The California attorney general was a guy named Earl Warren.

Oh. We know that guy. How do you know him? He becomes a Supreme Court justice. Right? Good guy or bad guy, Brandy? Bad guy. Really?

Really? He wrote the majority opinion on Brown versus the Board of Education, you douche. Oh, he did? Mm-hmm. And also Loving versus Virginia. All, so he's a good guy. You made Rand's best choice. Okay, I'm sorry. I get

no brownie points for remembering that he becomes a Supreme Court justice. You know, you're such a typical millennial. You just want your participation trophy. I do. Give me my participation trophy, please. I'll give you a participation Oreo. I don't want any more. I can't do any more Oreos. That's my participation trophy, please. I'll give you a participation Oreo. I don't want any more.

I can't do any more Oreos. That's why you're getting them. So anyway, Attorney General Earl Warren, who Brandy has just established was a good guy, was like, hey, I've got an idea. I think we should round up every person of Japanese descent and get them the hell out of California. Shut up. Right? This is the guy who later wrote very good.

I mean, people are complicated, obviously. Maybe he learned from this. I don't know, man. A lot of people did not learn much from this. Yeah. This idea was super popular. Yeah, obviously, because they fucking did it. They put them in internment camps.

You don't think they were out? Okay. What? No, go ahead. I'll let you continue. No. I don't know. In my head, the internment camps were in California still, though.

Oh, hell no. Okay. You could still use a flashlight and signal. Okay. It had to be more inland. Okay. You know who actually was against this idea? Who?

Liberal snowflake named J. Edgar Hoover. Right? Wow! He said, quote, Wow. He said, quote, the necessity for mass evacuation is based primarily upon public and political pressure rather than factual data. And like just fucking paranoia. Yes. And he said, please listen to me. This is like the one time in my life that I'm going to have a good idea. And, you know, no one listened. Yeah. Except for later when he had all the bad ideas. Don't worry about my ladies panties I'm wearing. It's fine.

I forgot that. And he about my ladies' panties I'm wearing. It's fine. I forgot that. Yeah, didn't you like to wear ladies' panties? Yeah, but I mean, that seems like the, you know, wear whatever you want. Yeah, I don't care. Stupid douche. Also, I think, well, who am I? I just kind of feel like, you know, I look at Norman's undies, I look at my undies, I think the more comfortable ones look

like Norm's undies. I agree. And you look at my husband's undies all the time. I never once looked at Norm's undies. David wears a boxer brief, though, and that looks pretty comfy. All right, time to do a switcheroo. Yeah. You ever worn any boxer briefs, Kristen? No, I have not.

I wear like a boy short underwear, which isn't that different from a boxer brief. I always wear edible underwear. Just fruit roll-ups sticking. And that's the thing is, it's cheapest if you make your own. You do that fruit by the foot. That's part of my Sunday meal prep is a Sunday underwear prep. So the fruit by the foot that goes right up the crack, it's like a thong situation? That's a really personal question.

That is so rude. All right. Anyway. Anyway. So, yeah. Earl Warren. Oh, he also wrote Miranda versus Arizona. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Huh. Mm-hmm. And he had the idea vs. Arizona. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Huh. Mm-hmm. He had the idea for... Yeah. Okay. Whew. So you get the idea.

People were calling for Japanese Americans to be removed from their homes and sent somewhere. Yeah. Where did they decide the somewhere is? There were a few different places. Okay. But despite all the hysteria there were some people who saw what was going on and they were like we shouldn't do this so it was a group of super influential very powerful mostly white people and they banded

together and they were like you know what we've got some sway here we need to do what we can to stop this so they began advocating on behalf of Japanese Americans, telling the government, hey, you can't do this. You can't just uproot people from their homes without any evidence that they might have actually done something wrong. This is America. We're better than that. Okay, so that organization is still around today.

Any guesses on what it is? No, what is it? It's called the KMTSU. And that stands for Kristen Made This Shit Up. This never fucking happened? No. No, people just, like, stood idly. They didn't give a shit.

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, okay, legitimately, I was like, wow, I've never heard this. I'm sorry, you got my, like, deepest laugh. Because, of course, you fucking made it up. This didn't happen. Yeah. Over 100,000 people were rounded up and...

Holy shit. And, like, nobody did anything. I mean, a few people did a few things, but there is no powerful group of white people. You're so excited. I'm not worried. So General John DeWitt, who was the head of the Western Defense Command,

created a report for the Secretary of War. And in his report, he described Japanese Americans as, quote, 112,000 potential enemies at large today that are ready for concerted action. He called Japanese Americans, quote, a menace along our frontier, which had to be dealt with.

Wow. Are you ready for the big one? This is my favorite one. Okay. He also wrote that, quote, the very fact that no sabotage has taken place to date is a disturbing and confirming indication that such action will be taken. Um, fucking what? You know something? and confirming indication that such action will be taken.

Um, fucking what? You know something? The very fact that we are not currently supermodels is a disturbing and confirming indication that one day we will, in fact, become supermodels. I don't think that's accurate. No, that's... I mean, this is the dumbest logic I've ever heard. We have no evidence, and therefore that means there is super evidence? That's so dumb.

That's not how that works? No. Well, President Roosevelt couldn't argue with logic like that, so he signed an executive order allowing the War Department to create a removal order. Oh, great. And General DeWitt was like, ooh, goody. And he made a bunch of orders are you ready for them no too bad if i say no will you just skip we'll just stop yeah well if i could skip to a happier part i would but unfortunately no. So first off, all people of Japanese ancestry, citizens and non-citizens who were living in the western halves of California, Oregon, and Washington, and the southern half of Arizona, you know, should just skedaddle. Why the southern half of Arizona?

I don't know. Powerful flashlights? I mean, you're looking for logic in this. Also, people of Japanese ancestry now had a curfew. They had to be home between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m., and when they left the house, it could only be to go to and from work. Also, people of Japanese ancestry could not leave the West Coast unless in a manner specified by the military.

So get the fuck out, but get the fuck out on our terms. Yeah. Then came the big one. I thought we already had the big one. No, so a lot of these were just kind of like we're leading up to, hey, you know, like you turned on the burner. Yeah. All right, give me the big one.

Ma'am, there's a time and a place. So, everyone who had Japanese ancestry needed to report to an assembly center, Japanese ancestry needed to report to an assembly center where they would be locked up and eventually transported to a relocation center further inland. This order was posted all over the West Coast, and it gave people days to make major decisions. What do they do with their homes? What do they do with their possessions? What do they do with their possessions? What do they do with their businesses? Yeah.

And of course, this brought out even more shitty behavior. People knew that Japanese Americans were being forced to flee. So they'd be like, oh, hey, I'd like to buy all your stuff. Sure, how's two pennies and a button sound? Okay. I read a book in college. I can't remember the name of the book. Can't remember the author, but it was about this time period. Yeah. And she talked about how, you know, all of a sudden her family had to leave the, the only home they'd known. And so this guy came up and was like, oh yeah, I'll, I'll buy

your plates. And like her mom had these very nice, valuable plates. And he offered her, like, jack shit. Yeah. And her mom was so frustrated that she started just smashing them on the ground because it's like, no, you're not going to get our stuff. Yeah. And the guy was like, no, no, no, hey, don't do that. Those are really valuable.

She's like, yeah, I know. No. Fuck you. Ugh. This was a very scary time for Japanese Americans. The vast majority of Japanese Americans actually complied with these orders. And there were some differing thoughts on why people were so willing to do this. The biggest one is that, I mean, people were just scared shitless about what would happen to them if they stayed, obviously.

And maybe they also thought that if they complied and they did everything the government asked them to do. They'd get to go back to their homes. Exactly. Yeah. I'm just going to prove I'm just an everyday citizen and then I'll get to go back home. Yeah. So that's exactly what Fred Korematsu's entire family did. They went to an assembly center in San Bruno, California, and it was terrifying. The entire area

was surrounded by barbed wire. Armed guards stood at the entrance. The family was given a number, 21538. Each of them was searched and fingerprinted and interrogated. And since this assembly center was really a racetrack, a lot of people who showed up were made to stay in stables. Oh my gosh. So, you know, his family's off

at this assembly center, but Fred wouldn't budge. He was 21. He was super in love with Ida and he wasn't a criminal. So he decided, you know what? I'm not following these orders.

What he really wanted was for him and Ida to run off to Nevada together. But that was like a little too much too soon for Ida. So she was like, hey, what if you got plastic surgery on your eyelids? Maybe then you could pass as like Spanish Hawaiian. And Fred was like, well, I mean, OK. You know, he felt like it was worth a shot. So he went to a plastic surgeon and paid $300 for eyelid surgery. Adjusted for inflation, 5K.

So this was. Wow. He was desperate. But the surgery. I mean, it didn't actually do much to change his looks. Yeah. But at this point, Fred was kind of like, well, I might as well lean hard into this new identity. You know, I'm hiding. So he changed the name on his draft card to Clyde Sarah, which sounds made up, right?

Yeah, sure does. I mean, how do we spell in Sarah? With an H. Oh, okay. It would seem less real without an H, right? Sure. Yeah. All right, anyway.

So, you know, you get the idea. He's trying to lay low now. And May 9th, 1942, was the last day that anyone of Japanese ancestry could live in the area that Fred Korematsu had spent all of his life. But he stayed under this fake name. And it was a lonely, isolating experience. But he loved Ida and he wanted to stay and he hadn't done anything wrong. Ida and he wanted to stay and he hadn't done anything wrong. But then one day, about three weeks after the deadline, I wrote that Fred and Ida were out for a walk.

I don't know that that's necessarily fair. They were out kind of on a street corner when they got spotted by a police officer. Uh-huh. And the officer kind of looked at Fred and he's like, mm-mm. The officer arrested Fred and Fred said that his name was Clyde Sarah. But once he was in custody, he eventually admitted to his real identity. So Fred was in jail for the crime of being a Japanese American. And while he was held in jail, he got a visit. It was from Ernest Besessig, the founder and director of the ACLU

of Northern California. Ernest and Fred had never met, but Ernest told Fred, look, I've heard about your case, and I want to do something about it. According to my legal expertise, this exclusion order is nutso bananas. Ooh, is that what he said?

That's a quote. I have video from this. Oh, do you? I don't want to share it, though. Yeah. Because, you know, I have my reasons. Obviously. He's like, I've been looking for someone who can be the face of the case that challenges that order.

So this was a big ask for a number of reasons. I mean, we always talk about this. Anytime we've got one of these cases where someone has to, like, represent. Be the face of a cause. Yeah. Yeah. It's very scary. It doesn't always go well for them.

I mean. Yeah. Remember Lloyd Gaines? I do remember Lloyd Gaines. My God. Yeah. Oh, God. Whatever happened to Lloyd Gaines? I do remember Lloyd Gaines. My God. Yeah. Oh, God. Whatever happened to Lloyd Gaines? We don't know.

That was the whole point of that case. No, it wasn't the whole point. The whole point was desegregation at the law school. Obviously, yes. Uh-huh. I believe you titled the case The Mystery of Lloyd Gaines. That was just to draw you in. I know how you like a mystery. I do.

Like one that happens in a bathtub. Oh, God, here we go. Can we just skip to your bathtub story? I bet you could tell it. What does that mean? What does that mean? It's such a brandy case that you could tell it just based on the title of it being a bathtub mystery. Should I start now?

Ken and Karen were the perfect couple. Everyone who knew them thought that they'd be together forever. They did X, they did Y, they did Z. But then one day, a phone call came in to 911. It was Ken. Oh no, my wife, she isn't breathing. She's dead in the bathtub. Send help immediately!

So paramedics arrived on the scene. And immediately they noticed something strange. Karen wasn't wet. And there was no bathroom in the house. She was alive the whole time. Oh, now I'm losing it. You've lost it. You've lost it. You did so good.

Just fucking wait. Hey, back to my terrible case. So, you know, we've talked about why it sucks to be, you know, the face of a movement like this. talked about why why it sucks to be you know the face of yeah a movement like this the other thing they talked about that was interesting was like the cultural element of fred talked about how in japanese culture there's more of a willingness to kind of live and let live and like not make a big scene and so i mean this is like really not what you do yeah yeah i don't know why i go against thehmm. I don't know why I... Go against the man. Yeah, I don't know why I made that face at you

like you were about to start a lawsuit. Right. So, and you know, people didn't want to be involved in this case because they worried that it would seem anti-American. You know, they're already being accused of being anti-American. Yeah.

Mm, yeah. They also worried that being involved in a court case would make life even worse for all the other Japanese Americans who were locked up for no fucking reason. So it would make everyone look guilty, even though literally no one was guilty. I mean, is it a spoiler to say literally no one was guilty. Yep. I mean, is it a spoiler to say literally no one was guilty? What are the chances that literally no one is guilty? Yeah. Plus, even Ernest had to admit that they probably wouldn't win the lawsuit.

We were at war and courts tend not to rock the boat when we're at war. They say that song. Rock the boat. Don't rock the boat, baby. Rock the boat tend not to rock the boat when we're at war. They say that song. Rock the boat. Don't rock the boat, baby. Rock the boat. Don't take the boat over. Rock the boat. Don't rock the boat, baby.

And people are like, we're at war. Can you get more serious? So this would be about, you know, trying to stand up for the right thing and praying like hell that eventually this horror would stop. Yeah. Great. Okay. Fred thought about it for a while, and he agreed. He would be the face of this case.

Not long after their meeting, Fred was taken to the assembly center slash racetrack where 7,800 people, including the rest of his family, were being held. Jeez. Fred lived in a horse stall. He was given a cot and a straw mattress, and there were big holes in the stall, so wind and dust just constantly blew through it. It was miserable. He said that jail had been much better.

To add to his misery, most of the people at the camp shunned him. They wanted nothing to do with him. His family, in particular his father, was very upset with him. Surely this lawsuit would make everything worse for everyone. But Fred held firm. His bail was set at $2,500. But when the ACLU tried to pay it, the government was like, oh, never mind.

Look at that. Your bail just got a whole lot higher. Magically. Oh, neat. Isn't that neat? It is neat. Thank you. Do you know what neat means?

I don't think you do. So Fred couldn't get out. So the ACLU focused on building their case. But the ACLU's national office and the Northern California office had kind of different ideas on how to proceed. The Northern California office was like, OK, first of all, this was a violation of like all of Fred's constitutional rights. We'll name a few of them real quick. Equal protection, right to due process, freedom of movement, and an assembly. I think I said and an assembly.

He's entitled to an assembly. He can hold an assembly? I love assemblies. Do you remember assemblies back in school? I do. We have no time. There's no time to talk about assemblies right now. Also, he has a right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment and a right to be

free from search and seizure the government violated among all of them and the national aclu was like absolutely yes we couldn't agree more and then the northern california group was like almost so okay one more thing this whole thing was not a valid exercise of constitutional power. And the National ACLU was like, ooh, you guys want to go after the constitutional authority of a wartime president? I mean, I knew we were hardcore, but I didn't know we were that hardcore. And then the National ACLU looked down at their feet and they were standing in puddles of mud. That's true.

It's not true. It's true. It's not true. So the National ACLU is like, hey, got an idea. What if we just don't do that one? We'll just not. We'll just hold off on that one. Let's put that idea on the back burner.

Table it, as they say. Well, let me check with some other people and circle back to you. Yeah. Uh-huh. We spend some time in the corporate world. What was that? It was my fucking watch. That sounded like a car.

It said, hee-hee. Does that say that to you all the time? I've got to do up my pants. This is, don't look. I feel like a, like a pervert. Well, only because you have your hand down them. What? It's a very sexy story.

Oh gosh, now I remember why I took these things oh no oh can't do it can't do it you got like a high-waisted number on i sure do everybody likes a high-waisted number when it's holding in you know your bits but then once my bits i don't know yeah i i know what you mean. You know, just, you know, whatever. My lovely lady loves in the back and in the front. But then when you have a nice big lunch, that high waist comes up way too far. What you need is it to come up just a little farther. What I need are maternity pants.

That's exactly what I'm describing to you right now. Why don't we all wear maternity pants. That's exactly what I'm describing to you right now. Why don't we all wear maternity pants? I told you that when I was wearing maternity pants, that I didn't understand why everybody didn't wear those pants. Do you still wear them? No. Why not? I don't know. I think, like, society doesn't, you know, accept that. Yeah.

Yeah. It's true. My baby's, like, almost a year and a half. I don't think I'm allowed to wear maternity pants anymore. Okay. Fine. fine. Fine. I saw an episode of What Not to Wear about this, so yeah, you're probably right. So, you know, the National Office and the Northern California Office have these different ideas on how to proceed. And Ernest was just like, no, we're going to do it all.

Smell you later, National ACLU. So the ACLU of Northern California moved forward and they first tried to get the charges against Fred dismissed for all the reasons I just named. But the government was like, no way. What we did was totally reasonable. This is a threat to our national security. And when there is a threat to our national security, we are allowed to go absolutely fucking nuts. You get locked up.

You get locked up. You get locked up. We're just going balls out on national security. Don't like it. In their brief, the U.S. government referred to Japanese Americans as, quote, this unassimilated group of blood relatives of a nation with which the people of this country are now engaged in mortal combat. Wow. Is that where the term mortal combat comes from?

Yeah, this is it right here. The mortal combat origin story? You're learning about the origins of stereotypes, Cold War, and Mortal Kombat. Oh my goodness. The court evidently thought that was a pretty decent argument. So the ACLU's motion to dismiss the charges was denied. I bet you didn't think I'd do a Susie Orman impression in this story. What are you doing?

Have you seen this over here? What are you talking about? I'm a zit. Move your finger. Oh, my Lord. Everyone, hold on. For the first time in Brandy's effing life, she has a zit. And it's really small.

Like, we've been together for how long now? I thought you were being nice, not pointing it out. Why would I point out someone's zips? Exactly. Well, that's like someone could turn that around on me real fast. How do you feel about it? I don't like it one bit, and it feels huge. It's not huge.

I got a third hand over here just waving at you from my chin. Wow. Did you sleep in your makeup last night? Obviously. Obviously I did. What if I didn't? What if I was like, no, I did a three-step cleaning regimen last night? Then I would be like, your skin is just purging all the, you know, makeup that you've plopped on it or something.

I don't know. That's what I would say to you. No, I think I have, like, a little, like, I don't know. There's some, like, imbalance happening because I feel like I'm a little bit, don't I look a little oily? Hmm. Hmm. I think I'm, like. You do look a little shinier.

Yeah, I don't think I'm meshing with my current makeup. I think I need to switch it up. Did you do something new? No. You just need to change it up. Yeah. People are going to hate the tangents in this episode. I know, I'm sorry.

I can just feel it. I feel it in my finger. Yeah. I feel it in my soul. Is that? I think I just made that up. And I'm thinking. It's from something.

It's for sure from something. What's it from? Who the hell knows? It's not from this case. I'll tell you that. It's from Love Actually. Really? Yeah, it's the Christmas song.

Okay, you know what? Christmas is all around us. Yeah, and I've never seen that movie. This is why I'm good at lying about movies I've seen. You asked me if I've seen Love Actually. Oh, yeah. I feel it in my veins. Yeah, that's from Love Actually.

What a romantic movie, huh? Uh-huh. Yeah. And Christmas? Oh, I watch it every Christmas. That's right. You know, right after you watch Christmas Shoes starring Rob Lowe. Stop it.

Stop it. Oh, my God. I want to buy these shoes for my mama, please. It's Christmas Eve and these shoes are just her size. Anyway. Anyway. Wow. You're so ashamed of the tangents. Could you hurry, sir?

Daddy says there's not much time. She's been sick for quite a while, and I know these shoes would make her smile, and I want her to look beautiful if Mama meets Jesus tonight. Anyway, what were you telling us? I think the worst part of that movie is when the kid takes the shoes home to his mom. And the mom hates him. No, what's worse? Mom doesn't like them.

Or the mom loves the shoes. She dies. She goes to meet Jesus. And Jesus is like, those are fucking ugly. No. Or he gets home from buying the shoes. Mama's already died. Oh, my God.

And he's like, I told the fucking guy at the counter there wasn't much time. Well, that's a lesson to you kids. You shouldn't have sang that whole fucking song. If you had just paid for the shoes and left, you would have gotten there in plenty of time. I've been counting pennies for what seemed like years. And the cashier said, son, there's not enough here. You know, it's like I don't even listen to the words. I'm more in it for the melody.

I'm really loving the idea of bitchy Jesus. Bitchy Jesus is like, oh, no, those are so last season. That is hideous. What, did a little kid pick those out for you? Oh god, are we going to hell yet? We are for sure. Time to get back to this.

So in September of 1942, in federal court in San Francisco, Fred Korematsu's trial began. And it was pretty short because the big questions were, number one, was he Japanese American? Number two, was he in military area number one, a.k.a. the no-no zone at the time in question? They did not call it the no-no zone. Obviously, they did call it the no-no zone. Obviously they did call it the no-no zone. No.

Kristen just made that up. Obviously the answer to both questions was yes. Yes. Yeah. He was in the no-no zone. And he was Japanese American. So the prosecution presented their one witness and it was an FBI agent who had interviewed Fred after his arrest. And the guy was like, yep, you know, he admitted the whole thing.

His parents are Japanese immigrants, and he was in America's swimsuit area after the exclusion order took effect. Don't do that! And then just keep on cruising like you didn't just say something super creepy. I'm just quoting from the transcript. And get a load of this. He changed the name on his draft card to, you know, George Glass or some shit. So obviously he knew he was up to no good. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Clyde Sarah. Fred took the stand on his own behalf. He told the court, quote, As a citizen of the United States, I am ready, willing and able to bear arms for this country. He talked about registering for the draft. He talked about volunteering for the Navy. He said he'd never even been to Japan. He couldn't read Japanese.

He could speak some Japanese, but he didn't speak it well. Yeah. But the judge found Fred guilty. Guilty of what? Hello? Being Japanese American? And being in the no-no zone. Yeah.

Try to keep up. He was in the swimsuit area. I'm sorry, I'm having trouble understanding how that's a crime. Well, it was. So, Fred was found guilty and sentenced to probation for five years. But what Fred got was actually worse than probation.

He was part of this lawsuit that had made national headlines and his family wasn't happy with him and at some point in all this Ida asked him to stop writing letters to her. Oh no! She said, I happen to be Italian and this is war, so we must both be careful. Until this point, they had planned to get married and instead they never saw each other again. Oh, great. Thank you for this wonderful story. Oh, yeah. It's good, isn't it?

No. Not long after Fred was found guilty, the U.S. military began moving Japanese Americans further inland to concentration camps. So I want to pause here because for a long time, I've always heard them referred to as internment camps or relocation camps. Isn't that just a nice stuff? Yes. It's a euphemism. Yeah. So more recently, they're being called what they actually were.

Yeah. Concentration camps. And a while ago, the Japanese American National Museum and the American Jewish Committee did a joint statement about this. So I'm going to read part of it. A concentration camp is a place where people are imprisoned, not because of any crimes they have committed, but simply because of who they are. During World War II, America's concentration camps were clearly distinguishable from Nazi Germany's. Nazi camps were places of torture, barbarous medical experiments, and summary executions.

Some were extermination centers with gas chambers. Six million Jews were slaughtered in the Holocaust. Many others, including gypsies, Poles, homosexuals, and political dissidents, were also victims of the Nazi concentration camps. In recent years, concentration camps have existed in the former Soviet Union, Cambodia, and Bosnia. Despite differences, all had one thing in common. The people in power removed a minority group from the general population, and the rest of society let it happen. So yeah, during World War II, the United States forced approximately 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry into concentration camps. About 80,000 of those people were second and third generation American citizens.

Fred and his family were sent to the desert of Topaz, Utah. The family of six was forced to live in two small rooms. They wore masks constantly because there was so much dust in the air. Yeah. And they did what they could to earn money. Fred worked in the concentration camp's warehouse for $12 a month, adjusted for inflation. It's like 200 bucks. Oh, my gosh. Eventually, the concentration camp put in a temporary work release program. And Fred was like, good God, yes, sign me up. Get me the hell out of here.

So he found some work picking sugar beets and working construction. Meanwhile, the ACLU of Northern California continued to work on his appeals. And his case got combined with two other kind of similar cases of Japanese Americans who had violated the no-no zone order. And when the case got to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Fred's legal team argued that there was no decision in history that suggested that the rights of citizens could be distinguished based on their ancestry. But the U.S. government was like, well, this was a super special circumstance.

And there's a first time for everything. Mm-hmm. You know, I thought I didn't like cranberry sauce, but then I tried it. No. And that argument worked in court. Mm-hmm. No, so what they argued was we had no way of knowing which Japanese Americans were loyal to America and which ones were disloyal.

We had no choice to do what we're currently doing. And the Court of Appeals was like, hmm, this seems like a tough one. So they did this thing where they certified the case to the Supreme Court, which is basically like, hey, boys, this seems like your thing. Why don't you rule on this? And the Supreme Court was like, no, thanks, this seems like your thing. Why don't you rule on this? And the Supreme Court was like, no, thanks. We'd rather you did it.

Oh, but we will rule on this case about the curfew order. Yes, we love the curfew order. Totally justified and cool. We don't see a problem with it. And the Court of Appeals was kind of like, huh, well, this is getting confusing because everyone had been so gung ho about these concentration camps a few years ago. But now things were getting a little murky. The Supreme Court was clearly OK with the curfew order. But around this time, the government was also like, oh, boy, we could sure use some more people in our military.

And we've got all these U.S. citizens locked up for no reason. What if we asked them to go into combat? Oh, sure. Sure, we've been super shitty to you. We've taken you out of your homes and away from your businesses and locked you in concentration camps. But hey, we kind of need you now. Yeah. concentration camps but he would kind of need you now yeah and yada yada yada that's how more than 33 000 japanese american men ended up serving in the american military after america had just put

them in concentration camps the fucking audacity uh-huh well and you know they that you can't really say no to that no and you're already talking about this group of people who were afraid to look un-American. Right. And were doing what they thought they had to do to, oh, blah. Hate it. Fucking hate it. Yeah. So this made things kind of confusing for the court, because if the government trusted Japanese Americans in its own military,

wasn't it time to back down from this bullshit? Turns out, no, the answer was no, it was not time to back down yet. Yeah. Feels like it's time. Yes. The appellate court was like, we are ruling against Fred. So then Fred's legal team was like, okay, we are taking this thing all the way to the United States. Supreme Court! And the Supreme Court was like, OK, we'll hear the case. By this point, Fred had been granted indefinite leave from the concentration camp. And he missed California, but obviously he couldn't go back there. So he moved to Detroit, where he stayed at the YMCA and got a job at a door making company.

And that job really opened a lot of doors for him. Pretty good. No. No. You know, in a door company, when one door opens. It's done. That's right. That's what they say.

So the case went before the Supreme Court, and Fred's legal team argued exactly what they'd been arguing from the beginning. But they also attacked the exclusion and removal program as being solely based on racism and speculation. Duh. Yeah. The government had locked up more than 100,000 citizens with absolutely no evidence of wrongdoing. But Solicitor General Charles Fahey was like, shh, no, no, no, no, no. You're looking at it all wrong, baby. Well, you have to ask yourself, it's not whether General DeWitt made this whole program based

on no evidence and a heaping helping of douchebaggery. and a heaping helping of douchebaggery, the real question here is, did he make this program in good faith and honest belief that people of Japanese descent posed a danger to the United States? Don't make that face. Hey, shh, shh, shh, no, no, hey, let's just focus on the exclusion order itself and not worry about whether any of this is constitutional. Okay, right. Can we all agree with that? Hey, apps on me. Come on, let's just get out of here.

That seems like a big issue. We'd have to admit to some wrongdoing. It's all murky. At some point in oral arguments, one of the Supreme Court judges was like, so, indefinite confinement. Yikes,

right? Not good? Yeah. And Charles was like, I mean, yeah, it's a bit of a bummer that it took literal years to figure out who was loyal and who wasn't. But we're just going to have to ask that all Japanese Americans just take one for the team and not whine about the fact that, you know, we ruined their lives. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

No, that's not taking one for the team. No, that's not taking one for the team. Yeah. The actual quote, I didn't include it, but it was literally like, we're all going through a tough time in war. And it's like, okay, yeah, everyone's going through a tough time, but there are levels. Were you removed from your home and placed in a concentration camp? I doubt it. Charles. What's wrong?

I just said the whole microphone. Well, damn it, Brandy. Finally, on December 18th, 1944, the Supreme Court announced its decision. What'd they say? Do you know anything about this case? Okay. To this day, the majority opinion in Korematsu versus the United States is considered one of the worst Supreme Court decisions of all time. Really? Yep. Like, famously bad. Oh, no.

By a vote of six to three, the justices upheld Fred Korematsu's conviction. Justice Hugo Black wrote the majority decision saying, Korematsu was not excluded from the military area because of hostility to him or his race. Yes, he fucking was. How the fuck

can you say that? That's the whole reason. Yeah. The entire reason. Yeah. He also wrote, we cannot reject as unfounded the judgment of the military authorities

and Congress that there were disloyal members of the population. Except for it was unfounded. Yeah. But we can't just say that's unfounded. Okay. There's this other thing he said in this opinion.

So I'll explain it a little bit. To back up this decision, he wrote about this questionnaire that had been given to Japanese Americans in these concentration camps. And it was when the government was trying to get people to join the military. And as part of the screening process, they had people fill out this questionnaire. And one of the questions was, will you serve in combat duty? And another question was, will you swear your allegiance to the United States and forswear any form of allegiance or obedience to the Japanese emperor? So the vast majority of people said yes to both questions.

Of course they did. Only 9% said no to the second one. But it's believed that people just got confused by the word forswear. Yeah. Because it kind of sounds like a trick question. Yeah. If you're forswearing,

it would mean that at one time you did have allegiance to Japan. Exactly. So in his majority decision, Justice Black was like, see, 9% of the people questioned said they couldn't forswear their allegiance to Japan. Exactly. So in his majority decision, Justice Black was like, see, 9% of the people questioned said they couldn't forswear their allegiance to Japan. Ooh, spooky.

We did the right thing. But again, the question was unclear. And you gave it to people after you'd put them in concentration camps. Yeah, I would look at that and be like, ooh, that is a trick question. They're trying to get me to admit that I one time was loyal to the emperor.

Which, what if you fucking were? When I'm a second generation... Yeah, no, exactly. And then he was like, by the way, we've decided not to rule on the constitutionality of locking up a bunch of citizens for no reason. We will get to that. We swear. It just won't be today or tomorrow or ever. Who has the time?

Yeah, I'm feeling kind of, you know, like my period's coming on. So I'm just going to take a week off. This decision was, you know, a piece of shit from tip to tail. But three of the justices dissented. Justice Robert Jackson wrote, guilt is personal and not inheritable. Justice Frank Murphy said that what the U.S. government had done to Fred Korematsu was, quote, one of the most sweeping and complete deprivations of constitutional rights in the history of this nation. Interestingly, on the same day, the Supreme Court also made a decision on another case. In that one, they unanimously ruled that the government could not detain a citizen who was conceitedly

loyal to the United States. So the courts had found this way to like dance around this whole issue. The government hadn't done anything wrong by locking up Fred, but it is wrong to detain citizens after you have determined that they are loyal. And also, we're not going to weigh in on the Japanese American concentration camps and figure out whether those are constitutional, but let's go ahead and just end all those, okay? Everybody's free to go.

So, Japanese Americans were now free to leave the concentration camps, but a lot of people stayed in them until they were kicked out because they'd been living in them for years and had no home to return to. Where the fuck do I go now? Exactly. To the home that you made me leave? Yeah. And what money do I have right now?

When Fred found out about the Supreme Court's decision to uphold his conviction, he was devastated. He wondered, am I an American or not? But life moved on, and about a year later, he met a woman named Katherine Pearson, and they fell in love. They got married, and they honeymooned at Niagara Falls. Oh, shit. Fun fact, they got married in Michigan because interracial marriage was legal there. And it wasn't in California or in Catherine's home state of South Carolina. All the fun facts in this entire story have been terrible.

They sure have been. In 1949, they moved back to California. But because of Fred's criminal record, which had been upheld by the Supreme Court, he had a tough time finding work. Yeah. So he worked for small companies, and he and Catherine raised a family. They had a boy and a girl, Ken and Karen. Oh. And Fred never talked about his legal battle.

Yeah. In fact, his children only found out about it when they read about it in school. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? No. But, you know, years went on and more and more people were starting to be like, hey, remember that time when we locked up a ton of people? Yeah, that was super fucking shitty. Yeah, probably shouldn't have done that. So in 1980, President Jimmy Carter created a commission called the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians to do a big review on the incarceration of Japanese Americans.

And after a few years of research, the commission concluded that there had never been any evidence to suggest that Japanese Americans were a threat to national security. Yeah, we knew that the whole time. No, we didn't because of the flashlights. We knew it the whole time. In fact, the concentration camps had been created solely based on race prejudice, war hysteria, and a failure of political leadership. Yes. Also around this time, researchers discovered that in 1943 and 1944,

when the government was trying to defend itself against this lawsuit, the government's legal team was desperate to find, like, any evidence that Japanese Americans had been, you know, helping the enemy. They had to find some justification for this horrible thing that we'd done. But instead, they found just the opposite. Yeah, that they were super loyal and that they tried to join the army. Yeah. Yeah, so they found out, oh shit, there's no evidence of this. Did they do anything? No.

No. Instead they hid the evidence and even set one of the reports on fire. Oh, okay. Okay. When all this came out in the 80s, a bunch of attorneys, specifically attorneys from the Asian Law Caucus, were like, wow, you know what? That's governmental misconduct. We can do something about that. So they reached out to Fred Korematsu, who had been living a pretty quiet life ever since this legal battle.

And they were like, hey, we want to reopen your case. You absolutely should not have a criminal conviction on your record. That is nutso bananas. They're just reviving that phrase. It's very common in California. Surfer speak. Is it? Cowabunga, hang ten, nutso bananas.

Sounds like a delicious smoothie, right? I think it sounds like a sundae. Oh, all right. I'll have the nutso bananas. Yeah, like something we could order at Andy's, frozen custard. Uh-huh. You trying to get a sponsorship? I'll take a small nutso bananas.

Mm-hmm. I'm picturing nuts, bananas, hot fudge. Yeah, that seems pretty good. Fudge, that's nutso bananas. What? Yeah, that's what they'd call it. Fudge, exclamation point. Fudge, that's nutso bananas.

Okay, it seems a little lengthy, but. Okay, they have the James Brown funky jackhammer. And I maintain that many people do not order that because it's embarrassing to say all those words. So Fred agreed to go through another court battle. And during litigation, the Justice Department was like, hey, Fred, hey, here's a great deal for you. If you agree to drop this lawsuit, we'll give you a pardon. And Fred was like, oh, you'll give me a pardon? How about you go fuck yourself?

Yeah, yeah. Nuts so bananas. Yeah, fudge that's nuts so bananas. That's what he said. Fred's wife, Catherine, later said, Fred was not interested in a pardon from the government. Instead, he always felt that it was the government who should seek a pardon from him and from Japanese Americans for the wrong that was committed. Yes!

Yes! He's absolutely correct! So the legal battle continued, and on November 10, 1983, Judge Marilyn Hall Patel overturned Fred Korematsu's criminal conviction. But Fred wanted more. Yes, his criminal conviction was overturned, but that horrible 1944 Supreme Court decision still stood. It could be used as legal precedent to lock up more citizens. And on top of that, the government hadn't done anything to try to remedy what it had done to Japanese Americans.

In court, Fred said, according to the Supreme Court decision regarding my case, being an American citizen was not enough. They say you have to look like one. Otherwise, they say you can't tell a difference between a loyal and a disloyal American. I thought that this decision was wrong, and I still feel that way. As long as my record stands in federal court, any American citizen can be held in prison or in concentration camps without a trial or a hearing. That is, if they look like the enemy of our country. Therefore, I would like to see the government admit that they were wrong and do something about it so this will never happen again

to any American citizen of any race, creed, or color. For so many years, he had been silent, but it seems that the reopening of this case ignited a passion for activism. Yeah. He became a member of the National Coalition for Redress and Reparations. And thanks in part to his advocacy, in 1988, President Ronald Reagan signed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988. And as a result, anyone who survived the concentration camps was given $20,000.

Yeah, it's not enough. Yeah, that's nothing. But to show how many people this affected, the payout ended up being like 1.2 billion dollars. Over time, Fred came to be known for what he was, a civil rights hero. In 1998, President Bill Clinton awarded Fred Korematsu with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, saying, In the long history of our country's constant search for justice, some names of ordinary citizens stand for millions of souls. Plessy, Brown, Parks. To that distinguished list, today we add the name of Fred Korematsu.

Oh, my God. I know. Yeah. Fred was finally getting the recognition he deserved, but he didn't sit back. On September 11, 2001, Fred saw the reaction to the terrorist attacks and he spoke out, saying that the government should not target people of Middle Eastern descent, as they had with Japanese Americans. He also spoke out about Guantanamo Bay. In two briefs that he filed with the Supreme Court, he warned that we were letting history repeat itself.

He counseled other potential activists, saying, one person can make a difference, even if it takes 40 years. I've got goosebumps. Fred died in 2005 when he was 86 years old. Five years later, California passed the Fred Korematsu Day Bill, which made January 30th the first day named after an Asian American. And that's the story of Fred Korematsu.

Wow. Okay, the end of that was very good. I mean, the whole story was good, but it was terrible. But I was a bit uplifting at the end. Yeah. Yeah. What he did was amazing. Yeah.

Yes. I just can't imagine how hard that was and how much courage that took. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that, you know, it seems like maybe with some encouragement or I don't know what it was that he decided, okay, now I have a voice. Now I'm being recognized and I'm going to fight injustice. Yeah, that's amazing.

Ugh. Whew. Got me all misty-eyed there, Christian. I know, you did get misty-eyed. Do you want me to tell this case? No, you already did. I'd like to give a shout-out to one of my favorite television programs.

Perhaps you've heard of it. It's a little program on oxygen called Accident, Suicide, or Murder. Uh-huh. Yeah. Where I found this case and loved it. And now I'm going to share it with you. You guys have already heard most of my intro because Christian recited it perfectly. But I'm going to reiterate it anyway.

Yeah. It was 1.02 a.m. on April 27th, 2012, when a call came in to the Mount Zion, Illinois, 911 dispatch center on the line was a very calm Chad Cutler. He said, I need an ambulance right away. I think my wife is drowned. Like, legit, that's how he said it. And then he made what the dispatcher thought was kind of an odd request. He said. Feet pics.

No. He said, I've got two small children here sleeping. Is there any chance of them? And he was referring to the emergency crews of getting in here kind of quietly oh and then he went uh-huh and then he went on and he was like about how many people do you think you're gonna send here you know i've got cats and i don't want the cats to get out when a bunch of people are going in and out of the house what is this guy the dumbest murderer on earth

it's like hey hey you know no rush or anything but i'm pretty sure my, hey, you know, no rush or anything, but I'm pretty sure my wife is dead, you know, in the bathtub. The real priority is the kids are sleeping. But gosh, my kids are asleep. Can you just be sure to make sure that the paramedics come in real quiet? And then also, if they could just gently close the door behind them because I don't want my cats getting out. This is the weirdest thing.

This is one of the weirdest 911 calls. Yes, he's like, hey, I've got a question. How many people about are going to be here? Because, you know, I just, oh, just people going in and out. Like, legit, my cats might get out. Oh, my God. In and out. Like legit, my cats might get out.

Oh my God. So the dispatcher seemed to be kind of taken aback by this statement. As one would. But he just kind of pushed forward with the call and he asked if Chad's wife, Lisa Cutler, was breathing. To which Chad replied, no, she's not breathing. She's blue. Oh. And then he continued and said that he had done CPR.

He said, I've done CPR and I have no idea how long she's been in there. And so the dispatcher, you know, made the alert to the paramedics and they were on the way and they arrived at the Cutler home located at

Oh shit. Okay. Hang on. Just keep your pants on the way. And they arrived at the Cutler home located at. Oh, shit. Okay, hang on. Just keep your pants on. 26-65 South Lake Parkway, Decatur, Illinois. Okay. It is a very nice house. That is a big house. This is a sizable home.

But you know what? It's one of these places where like the neighborhood, like they knock down all the trees. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. This is a six bed, six bath number with 5,354, no, 345 square feet. It's fucking big. This is huge. Yes.

So I'm not real familiar with Decatur, which is the bigger city that this is in. This neighborhood or this individual part of Decatur is known as Mount Zion, which is like an upscale enclave. That is a fancy word, isn't it? Uh-huh. But this house isn't that expensive they don't really say trashy enclave do they no huh yeah it's really not yeah four hundred thousand dollars because there was a murder that took place i mean even at the time that they bought it was like four hundred thousand dollars oh god am i looking at the tub? Are you? I might be. Is it a big corner tub?

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yikes. Yeah, this has had some updates since the Cutlers lived there, but... All right. Yeah, it's a nice home. Okay.

Okay, so the paramedics pull up, and Chad Cutler's standing, like, in the driveway ready for them. And he's like, hey, everybody, keep it down. The kids are sleeping. And then, like, takes the paramedics into the house and takes them up to the master bathroom where Lisa's naked body was on the floor. He had covered her with a towel. And immediately, like like the paramedics went to work trying to do CPR, see if there were any signs of life. And at the same time, Chad kind of told the story of what had gone on that night. He said that he and Lisa had gone to

bed somewhere around 10 o'clock. They'd, you know, put the kids to bed and then they'd gone in and they were laying in bed. And she said that her back was hurting her. And so he was like, why don't you go in and take a bath? And so she had gotten up and she'd gone in they were laying in bed and she said that her back was hurting her and so he was like why don't you go in and take a bath and so she had gotten up and she'd gone in to take a bath and he had fallen asleep he woke up a couple hours two and a half hours three hours later and lisa wasn't in the bed with him so he said he'd gotten out of bed, gone to the bathroom, and he found her submerged in the water. She appeared to be dead. And so he pulled the stopper out of the bathtub, pulled her out, and began immediately performing CPR. But it seemed to him it wasn't productive.

He wasn't getting, you know, he didn't really know what he was doing to begin with. So he called 911, you know, he didn't really know what he was doing. Yeah. And went. So he called 9-1-1, you know, and here we are. As is the case in all of these stories that I tell you from the very beginning, the first responders are like, something is amiss at this crime scene. First thing that the police noticed when they came into the Cutler's room was that the bed was made. And that Chad Cutler was like fully dressed, even though he claimed to have just like gotten out of bed in the middle of night and found his wife there. They're like, did this guy make the bed and get dressed before we got here? And so they're like, okay, that seems kind of odd. And his demeanor in general, the 911 call was fucking weird.

He seemed very calm. They said there was no sense of urgency in his voice. And that quote comes directly from a man named Jonathan Butts. And I am a very mature individual and will just move on here without making any comment about that name. Great. Although we can't agree that Jonathan is a ridiculous name. You know, lesser people would crack jokes.

Brandy. At that. You're so cheeky. So, as I already said, the paramedics who responded to the scene, they, thank you, I liked your cheeky joke. Wow, it took you a minute. They had begun life-saving measures on Lisa, and then they rushed her to the emergency room. But it was clear when they arrived that she was already dead. They had intubated her, despite there being no signs of life, and they had manually bagged her all the way to the hospital.

They had given her injections of like epinephrine, but nothing was. She was only at the hospital a few minutes before they declared her dead. Wow. It was like by one, I think by like 1.45, she was declared dead. Chad's odd behavior continued there at the hospital. He changed his clothes again somewhere between when he'd first welcomed the paramedics into his home and when he showed up at the hospital.

I don't know. He wasn't comfortable. He didn't like his outfit. I don't know. He didn't like his outfit. I don't know. But there's descriptions of what he's wearing throughout the night. When paramedics arrived, he had an Under Armour sweatshirt on and khaki shorts and tennis shoes. And then when he's at the hospital, he's in a matching black athletic wear outfit.

Okay. I don't know. Maybe this guy just cared about his appearance a lot. I don't know. It seems really weird that he's changing his outfit. Okay. I don't know. Maybe this guy just cared about his appearance a lot. I don't know. Seems really weird that he's changing his clothes. Yeah. Anyway. So the doctor comes out, the emergency room doctor comes out to the waiting room where Chad is.

And he's giving his report. And he's like, you know, we've done everything we can do and chad looks at him and goes so she dead yeah when the doctor's like yes unfortunately we were unable yeah you know wow buddy you're taking this super well yeah and so you know there's investigators around and they're like huh i don't think that this is really like looking like a real accidental death at this time. And so they thought, you know, maybe this needs to maybe a suspicious death investigation at the very least needs to start at this point. And so they talked to Chad a little bit and he said, you know, his wife had been dealing with anxiety and depression and that she had been on medication for those four years. And that she wasn't super responsible with how she took her medication and that some of those medications caused her to get sleepy and some of them just made her flat out pass out.

And so maybe she'd taken that medication and then got in the bathtub. And so they, you know, did a autopsy on her and a toxicology report. And obviously they'd have to wait a while for the toxicology report to come back. But less than 12 hours after Lisa was pronounced dead, a forensic pathologist performed an autopsy on her and said, yes, she for sure died from drowning. Like, absolutely, that was the cause of death. But he declined to declare a manner of death. He wanted a broader investigation to be done before he would declare if this was accidental, investigation to be done before he would declare if this was accidental, if this was perhaps a suicide, or if this was a homicide.

Almost like the name of that show that I mentioned. Oh, Lord. The real question is, did the kids wake up? I don't think so. The kids slept right through it. This is so, okay. Okay. What a weird thing! Well, it's

one of those things where, okay, either he's... he's not quite right socially. Yeah. Or he's like the worst, most obvious murderer ever. I think it's the second one.

Okay. But how do you not know that you're supposed to pretend to be upset? Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Okay. So the sheriff's department kind of talks to the people who were doing the autopsy.

And then the state police had also been in on the investigation. And all of them, like Wonder Twin Powers activate to, we now have a homicide investigation going on. What happens after the Wonder Twin Powers activate? Do they like, is it like Mighty Morphin Power Rangers? Do they become one? You think the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers? Do they become one? You think the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers become one? They do.

They become one giant Power Ranger. Oh, that's right. I guess I forgot. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. These are the things

I don't know. Sorry. You've stepped outside of my field of expertise. I'll admit that when you said all the Power Rangers become one, I thought it was dirty. You thought it was like they were running a train on each other? All right. I did think that.

But then when you jogged my memory, it's like, oh, I do remember that they would eventually get really huge. Yeah, like one's a fist, another one's a fist. Yeah, but as a kid, I was always like, why not just start there? Because they have to combine. Right, but why not start combined? Like instead of like, oh, here come the putties. Like, pow, pow, pow. Oh, no, we got to, you know, kick this up in the ass.

Like. Anyway. I know you do. You get it. I do. Uh-huh. You get it. You're with me.

I do. I do. So all of these different people who had been somewhat involved to this point were like, yeah, this guy seems really weird. Like, he's just like super relaxed and he doesn't seem to be like upset when we ask him to tell the story of how he found his wife.

He's just very factual about it. And they were like, you know, people act differently to grief and stress, but this seems really weird. And so they decided it was time to look into the couple. At the time of her death, Chad and Lisa Cutler had been married for 12 years. They had met when Chad was a student in one of Lisa's night school classes. Oh, no.

So she was a high school Spanish teacher, like, as her day job. I'm not sure if that's what she, like, if she was also teaching Spanish at her day job. I'm not sure if that's what she, like if she was also teaching Spanish at her night job. But it was like for older people in the night school program. She had been 33 when she met Chad and he was 22. Oh, no. Yeah. That's creepy. Can you imagine?

No, I can't imagine. No, I think it's creepy. Yeah. And? No, I can't imagine. No, I think it's creepy. Yeah. And she's 11 years older than him, which at the point of 22 and 33, huge difference. Yeah. Huge life difference. One is, I can legally drink, finally. And the other is, I teach night school.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. drink finally and the other is I teach night school yeah yeah so anyway the two had hit it off right away and the chemistry was electric boogie woogie woogie get down despite their age difference everyone around them get down. Yeah. Despite their age difference,

everyone around them said they made for a beautiful couple who look to have a bright and happy future ahead of them. There's lots of pictures of them, like with Lisa sitting on Chad's lap, you know, laughing, tossing her hair back.

You know, the classic we're so in love pictures. Santa Claus. No. No. During his first interrogation with the police, Chad had made some more claims about Lisa's mental health. had made some more claims about Lisa's mental health. He said that he had really been declining in the time leading up to her death. He said that Lisa had seen multiple psychiatrists over the last decade and was on a bunch of prescription medications.

And he doubled down on that claim that she sometimes took too much. And then sometimes she wouldn't take them at all. She just wasn't real consistent and maybe wasn't following the prescription like to the T how she was supposed to. And he said he couldn't remember if he had seen her take her medication the night that she had died. As investigators kind of took a little bit of a dive into the relationship that was Chad and Lisa, they found that that perfect couple. Hold the phone. Wasn't so perfect.

My goodness. That facade, that beautiful, big home. Under the surface, trouble was a-bubbling. Very small home. It was a literal facade. It was a little tiny home. So over the past few years, there had been some struggles in the relationship, but it really had come to a head in February of that year when Chad had lost his job. So he worked as a maintenance supervisor at like a corn plant.

A corn plant? A corn plant. Okay. A plant that processes corn. Yeah. And he made like six figures at that job. Okay. And he made like six figures at that job. And then he'd gotten laid off. And now they were living purely on Lisa's teacher salary.

Oh, shit. Which was like $44,000. Yeah. Their bank was, I'm sorry, their bank. They owned a bank. No, their home was in foreclosure. Like, no, their home was in foreclosure. And, you know, they kind of asked Chad about some of these struggles. And he said, yeah, it's been really tough since I lost my job. And, you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic and things have been really bad at times.

And during their investigation into this couple, the police had learned that Lisa had actually filed for divorce back in February. Wow. And that she had been granted a protection order against Chad at the time. Well, talk about burying the lead, Brandy. All right.

Good Lord. And so they were like, hey, hey, what about this order of protection? What about burying the lead, Brandy? All right. Good Lord. And so they were like, hey, hey, what about this order of protection? What's the deal with that? Are you flipping me off right now? Yeah, I am. I am. And he's like, oh, yeah, this is officially no mystery. You should have started.

He's like, oh, that old thing? No big deal. It's kind of funny. She didn that old thing? It's no big deal. It's kind of funny. She didn't mean it. She didn't. Nope. That was just a whole thing. There was a big blow up when I got laid off. It'd just be crazy. I lost my temper a little bit. She went and stayed with the neighbors

for a couple days. Filed for divorce. Got the protection order. We've all been there. Everything has calmed down. She just called her attorney. We're not even moving forward with the divorce. We've all been there, yeah. Everything has calmed down. She just called her attorney. We're not even moving forward with the divorce. We've reconciled. Mm-hmm. And they were like, oh, yeah, you've reconciled, huh?

And now your wife's dead? Mm-hmm. Mysteriously? Mm-hmm. Died in the bathtub? Mm-hmm. Okay. And they were like, hey, Chad, can you take your shirt off for us?

Inappropriate. Like we just standard standard part of the investigation. I love to see somebody's nipples. And so this was just like, I don't know, the day after, two days after. And so they actually got a search warrant to see his nipples. Chad Topless. And so in an interrogation room, he took his shirt off and there on his arm. Scratches.

Scratches. Yeah, of course. They're like, what's the deal with the scratches, buddy? And he was like, oh, I have eczema. So sometimes I just get real itchy. And then I just get to scratching. And then, you know, you know how it is. And so they're like, cool, cool, cool.

All right. And so now, according to this episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, we're starting to get pretty suspicious of Chad. I hate these shows. I hate them. Good Lord. What? You don't think we should be suspicious of Chad? They've really zeroed in on him unfairly, I think. So the next day, they show up at the Cutler home unannounced. And they slam down a search warrant for the whole house.

All right. And Chad's like, oh, my gosh, what? Oh, no. And they found some interesting stuff. Interesting stuff. In a trash can in the garage, I believe, they found some paperwork that proved that Lisa was, in fact, moving forward with the divorce. Mm-hmm. And then there was a handwritten list in what they later determined to be Chad's handwriting of, you know, just some insurance policies and some payout amounts. Oh, Lord.

Becoming his way. You dumbass. Yeah. And so at this point, they were like, I don't know. Seems like this might be a bad guy here who murdered his wife. And they requested a second autopsy, which isn't really done very often. And so they, you know, they do a second more thorough autopsy on Lisa's body. And, okay, on that initial autopsy, they had found some bruising that wasn't, couldn't

really be explained, but it wasn't like real severe. So on this second autopsy, you're not going to like this, Kristen. I'm just warning you. Okay. They removed her skin in those areas where that bruising was. And they found severe hemorrhaging in those areas. So what that means is that those bruises occurred like as she was dying. And they were all over her body.

They were on all, they talk about planes of the body. So the front is a plane, the back is a plane, top of your head, bottom of your feet, four planes of the body. Okay. She had significant bruising and hemorrhaging to all planes of her body. On this second autopsy, they determined that none of that was typical with an accidental drowning. Right. with an accidental drowning. What a more likely explanation was is that those bruises occurred as she fought

to get her head back above water as it was being held under. Specifically, the bruises on her elbows were of her fighting back against the bathtub to try and get her head above water. Yeah. Oh, fuck this guy. Good.

So right about the time that they're discovering all of this and they're like, oh, shit, this guy murdered his wife. Lisa's funeral was going on. And Chad was fucking living it up at the funeral. It was like he was on display. He was saying hi to everyone. Don't do finger guns. I guarantee you he was doing finger guns. He seems like the type.

He seems 100% the type to do finger guns. He was hugging every woman that was there and was like, oh, my gosh, you look so great. Look how nice you look. Love that outfit you picked out. But did they look nice? I don't know. I don't know. Am I missing the point?

I think you are. A friend of Lisa's said it was extremely painful to witness. She said that Chad acted like he was out at a bar. Oh, God. He was excited to see everyone. And he took it. I don't think this is that weird. I think people do this sometimes. But he took the flowers off of the top of Lisa's casket and he handed them out to like women at her funeral as a keepsake. I don't think that's that weird. I don't think that's that weird either.

Yeah, I think people do that. I think also, like, a funeral, well, not in this situation. Never mind. I was about to say something different. Okay. I was about to say, like, but the thing I was thinking of was, like, in funerals

for very old people, sometimes it's kind of a nicer atmosphere because, like, you know, everyone's getting together. I would even argue that point, even in a case like this,

where obviously I think this guy's a murderer, but if somebody actually had an accidental death and it was shocking, there's still a point where a funeral can feel kind of like a break from the grief. Yeah. Because you do. You have a moment where you're connecting with people that you haven't seen in a while. So, yeah, I don't necessarily know. Yeah, I don't necessarily know.

But yeah, if he seems like super thrilled, yeah, that would be terrible to witness. Mm-hmm. So shortly after Lisa's funeral with that weird display by Chad, the police actually received a tip. Chad. The police actually received a tip. A Walmart employee had seen Lisa's obituary and then had kind of like done a quick Google, I'm guessing, and seen

maybe a news story that she had died in her bathtub or something like that. She called the police and said she recognized Lisa as a customer from Walmart who she had sold a track phone to. So that's like a burner

phone. Yeah, yeah. Oh, shit. Like a week before she died. How did that? This person has the best memory ever. I think it was me. Yeah, probably. It could only be you. This sounds like a true Brandy move. Yes. I'd be like, I remember that woman.

I will save the day. That's right. The police need to know. The police need to know she bought a burner phone. Where's my cape? Yeah. Maybe they will deputize me. Oh, my God.

And so they look into this. They're able to get the information about the phone from, from like the back end of the purchase from Walmart, apparently. And they find out that she had been secretly communicating with this man. It was a local doctor. And then maybe they were, you know, friends or maybe they were a little more than friends. She had secretly been communicating with him. And in the days before her death, Chad had found out and he had left a threatening message on the doctor's voicemail. It was like, don't talk to my fucking wife.

And the doctor didn't come forward and say, hey, I guess not. I'm guessing the doctor didn't want to be like dragged into it. But well, but if there's a question about. Yeah, no, the doctor had not come forward. And when they asked to chat about it, he was like, I have no idea what you're talking about. Oh, yeah. Okay. All right, dude.

And they were like, great. Okay, can we see your phone records? No, that's private. And he's like, yeah, absolutely. No problem. Mm-hmm. And he's like, yeah, absolutely. No problem. Mm-hmm.

It turned out that he, too, had been engaging in a secret chat with a lady friend. Okay. So this episode makes a pretty big deal about this. Mm-hmm. That it was like a secret relationship. I've read some of the communications. Okay. Between these two.

And I don't think that's what it was. Okay. This was a woman that he had previously dated, I believe, years earlier. He'd reconnected with her, like, through Facebook, and they'd started chatting, sending a couple emails. They had, like, a play date with their kids at one point. Okay. What I think

is that this woman thought she was having a platonic relationship with an old friend. Yeah. And he was like, hey, I want to bang you. Yeah. And she was like a platonic relationship with an old friend. Yeah. And he was like, hey, I want to bang you. Yeah. And she was like, well, see, I'm married. And he was like, okay, cool, but I really want to bang you.

Yeah. And she was like, yeah, no, so I'm happy to be your friend, but... And he was like, but you're so beautiful, and you have legs for days, and you're super hot, and I've never loved anyone the way that I loved you, even my ex-wife, which is what he called Lisa, like day after she died oh so I submit for the listeners here that this was not a secret relationship to anyone other than Chad I believe Chad maybe thought he was in a secret relationship and this woman was probably like thought she was just like having a friendship like with an old flame.

Yeah. And that he wanted it to be way more. Because at one point she was like. So it was a secret even to her. Well, so at one point she was like, hey, just so you know, like my husband can read our messages. My husband has access to my email.

Yeah. And he's like, oh, excuse me. I, you know, I just want to be your friend and also you're super beautiful. And so then the husband emailed Chad and was like, don't talk to my wife anymore. Yeah. And Chad was like, I will be happy to do that when she tells me that that's what she wants. Dude, back the fuck off. So the big point they make about this communication in this investigation is that the day after Lisa had died, actually the same day that Lisa died, because she died at like one o'clock in the morning that evening he is going back and forth with this woman and she's like hey

you know my husband can read our emails and like if if you keep talking like this he's not gonna like it yeah and you should stop and like and he was like well you know you should just leave him and she's like oh you know i really haven't you know i've got kids we have kids and i don't have anywhere else to go and i think she was trying to just kind of like brush off what he said. And he's like, well, no, I've got a five bedroom, five bath house now. You could move right in. And with all of Lisa's secret life insurance policies, I can pay off the house and we won't have to worry about money. Did he say secret life insurance policies?

Yeah. This guy's an idiot. Yeah. And so police see this communication when they're searching his phone that he has said he has consented to and they ask him about it. And he's like, oh, my gosh, you guys are totally blowing this out of proportion. I was just blowing off steam. Yeah, I made a crass remark about, you know, my wife's death 10 hours after she died,

but that's all it was. It was just a crass remark. You know what? I said what I said. I've got nothing to hide. Except for you do. Which is the fact that you murdered her. Right.

And so they were like, huh, maybe we should look into those secret life insurance policies. And so they did. And they found that multiple accidental death life insurance policies had been taken out for lisa in the days before she died like literally days before she died five days how did this story make it onto this show because it was never a mystery there's no mystery here there never was No mystery here. There never was. And now this is going to shock you, Kristen.

Okay. Chad was the sole beneficiary of all of those policies. That is shocking. Boy. They also discovered that those policies had all been applied for in Lisa's name with her very own email address that had been set up like four days before she died at a time when she was at work and only Chad was at home able to access their computer. How does anyone think they're going to get away with something this stupid? I know.

I know. Yeah. Poor Lisa. Yeah. This is what they said on this show after they discovered that Chad had been the one to take out these life insurance policies and that he'd created a fake email address with Lisa's name. They said, We became convinced that Chad had killed her.

It was not a suicide. It was not an accident. It was not a drug overdose. This wasn't some mysterious intruder. Chad had murdered his wife. Ugh. Wow. But they still needed some more concrete proof,

and so they did some DNA testing on Lisa's remains. They did some fingernail scrapings. Mm-hmm. Because he had those scratches on his arms. Well, that was because of the eczema. That's from his eczema, right. But those DNA tests came back and they came back either belonging to Chad or Chad and Lisa's 11-year-old son. 11-year-old son.

And so they brought this information to Chad, and they were like, well, you know, we did some tests, and Lisa had some tissue under her nails, and we're able to link it to either you or your son. Mm-hmm. And Chad said— Don't you dare tell me that he blamed the kid. Well, he is pretty big for his age, and Lisa's pretty small, so... No. He implicated his 11-year-old son. Oh, my God. Can we fast forward to the part where this guy gets locked up forever?

Well, before they could do that, they brought in an aquatic death expert. What? Yeah, because they were still, the forensic pathologist had still not declared this a homicide. So they had not arrested Chad. They weren't able to charge him with murder to this point because the manner of death

was still undetermined at this point. And so they brought in this woman, Andrea Zafaris, and she was an aquatic death expert. That sounds so cool. I know. And so, yeah, she has done like, I don't know, she's testified at like 300 trials of people who've died in some kind of aquatic manner. And she's like the foremost expert on aquatic deaths, according to this show. Anyway, and she looked over, you know, the autopsies, both of them.

She looked at all the pictures. She looked at the scene. They had actually removed the bathtub from the home at this point. It was like in the crime lab. from the home at this point. It was like in the crime lab. And she said that the injuries on Lisa's body were clear evidence of foul play. She said, you don't die and flop around in a bathtub.

There's no death that would have explained that. Yeah. She went on to theorize that Lisa could have possibly even been killed outside of the bathtub and then placed there to stage the whole drowning scene. But there was water in her lungs, which she said could have happened if she'd been, you know, there are different scenarios that could explain that. But the most likely explanation was that she was held under the water until she died. Yeah. One of the things that she thought was the most telling of this is that it didn't appear to her based on the autopsy that Lisa had spent much time in the tub.

Her fingers weren't pruney. Yeah. Yeah. in the tub. Her fingers weren't pruney. Yeah. It didn't appear that she'd been in the tub for hours as Chad had claimed.

Wait, is he full of shit? That's right. Finally, about a year and a half after Lisa died, Chad was finally arrested and charged with the first degree murder of his wife. Fucking finally.

In the meantime, he's been off like wife shopping. He sent his kids to stay with like an aunt in California for like two weeks while he went out of the country and like was looking, he like was sending emails about like, oh, I've met this really nice woman here. She, you know, she could start out as a nanny and then become your mom. Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah.

Chad Cutler's murder trial began in June of 2015. The prosecution was led by First Assistant Macon County State's Attorney Nicole Kronke. Kronke. Kronke. Did theyk. Kronke. Did they not say it on the episode? No, I never heard it pronounced anywhere. K-R-O-N-C-K-E. Kronk.

Kronk. In her opening statement, she told a jury of eight men and four women that Chad Cutler had forcibly drowned his wife in the bathtub as she was moving forward with a divorce and he had become involved with another woman. She told the jury that in January of 2012, Lisa Cutler had told a co-worker of hers at Eisenhower High School that she was scared. She said, if anything happens to me, please look into my husband. That, oh, yeah, That infuriates me.

She went on to tell the jury, Lisa made this statement through tears. Three months later, this mother of two young children was found dead in the bathtub of her house. Yeah. found dead in the bathtub of her house. Yeah. She told the jury that in February of 2012, Lisa had filed for divorce and had been granted an order of protection and Chad had been forced to leave the house. But then he'd lost his job.

So Lisa had asked for the order of protection to be removed so that Chad could come back home because he couldn't afford to live anywhere else. But on April 26, 2012, the day before she died, Lisa had called her attorney and told him she wanted to proceed with the divorce. She had told her attorney that she was afraid of Chad. Nicole Kroenke told the jury she did not survive to see the next day. Chad Cutler's defense attorney, Jeff Justice. No.

No. Is that for real? That's his name? Jeff Justice. No! No! Is that for real? That's his name! Jeff Justice! He for sure has a billboard, right? Of course he does. Of course. Oh, good for him.

What a wonderful name. Jeff Justice told the jury that Lisa Cutler had suffered from depression and anxiety and had been taking several medications, including clonazepam, which he called the drug of choice for anxiety. He then theorized that perhaps Lisa had stopped taking her clonazepam

and that she'd had a seizure in the bathtub as a result. Okay. She had some in her system when she died, but he would argue that that was a lower amount than like the, her prescription would put in her system. So that meant that she'd stopped taking it like a couple of days earlier. And then obviously her body had gone into withdrawal and the natural withdrawal symptom from clonazepam is a seizure. So, bing, bang, boom. Is it really? It can be. Everybody, we're getting the big eye roll from Brandy. So, what ends up happening in this trial is it's basically battle of the experts. The

prosecution puts up their forensic pathologist, their aquatic death expert, and they talk about, you know, what they found, how none of her injuries match an accidental drowning. They don't even match a seizure. Yeah. Like these are forceful injuries. She was fighting for her life. This wasn't just, you know, she had had a seizure and even a seizure wouldn't have explained

it. There's no. There's no, the aquatic death expert talked about how a seizure could have made her, yeah, thrash around in the tub. It wouldn't have explained a drowning. It likely wouldn't have lasted long enough for her to drown. Yeah. And the argument that it was caused by a withdrawal, they put her psychiatrist on the stand. And he talked about how she had confided in him that she thought her husband was stealing her anxiety meds and that she often ran out of her prescription before the end of the

month. And so at times she would go three days, 10 days, at one time, 19 days without that prescription and hadn't ever had a seizure as a withdrawal symptom. Jeff Justice did say that, you know, the medical evidence doesn't show whether or not maybe she fell in the tub or drowned because of a seizure. You know, the medical evidence isn't going to tell you that, but I'm here to tell you it's possible. Okay. And he told the jury that Chad had reacted just as anyone would when he found his wife unresponsive in the tub that night. He drained the water, then he removed her from the tub, and he attempted CPR.

Totally normal. That's what anybody does. And then in an attempt to explain some of Chad's odd or unemotional behavior following Lisa's death, I think this is a weird explanation. Jeff Justice basically said that, you know, maybe Chad was kind of in shock. And then he cited this text message that he'd sent the day after Lisa died. So because their house was entering foreclosure, they were trying to sell it before it was foreclosed on. Yeah, short sale.

Yes. The day that Lisa died, like later that same day, Chad had sent a text message to their real estate broker. He said, my wife has had a near-death experience. Please don't come. I guess they'd had some kind of meeting planned or something like that. And so Jeff Justice was like, this is a clear sign that Chad wasn't even sure what was going on. I don't know. So the prosecution called 60 witnesses to testify.

And it was a bunch of people from the hospital that talked about, you know, and the first responders. The first responders had some interesting testimony about the bedroom. The bed was made. Chad made the claim that he had been in bed reading a book and that he'd just fallen asleep. Yet all of the books were neatly stacked on their nightstand. And a kid's book was the top book on the stack. Well, don't judge him. Like for his story to be true, he had woken up, perfectly stacked the books up, made the bed,

gotten dressed and then gone in to find his wife in the bathroom. Yeah. Total bullshit. Total bullshit. And then gone in to find his wife in the bathroom. Yeah. Total bullshit. Total bullshit. And then the prosecution was able to call a few witnesses, some neighbors who had talked to Chad in the days after Lisa's death. And one he had told, yeah, it was clear when I went in there that she was dead. I didn't even try CPR. And another had the day after Lisa's death had been visited by a couple of investigators because it was the neighbor who Lisa had gone and stayed with when she got that order of protection granted.

And so they'd gone and interviewed her. And as soon as the marked police car left the driveway, Chad had called the neighbor and been like, hey, what was that about? And she was like, you know, just standard, I think just standard, you know, questions they just had about Lisa. And Chad was like, anything I should worry about? What? Yeah. The prosecution was also able to present a bunch of information, a bunch of proof that in the hours after Lisa's death, that next day during the daytime hours, he'd called every life insurance policy and tried to make his life insurance claims. Dear God. They also put the funeral director on the stand who had made the plans for Lisa's funeral, it was a woman. She said she had been alone at the funeral home the day that Chad had brought in the clothing for Lisa to wear for her viewing. She said the clothing wasn't, he didn't bring clean clothes.

They were like balled up in a bag. And he just kind of been like, yeah, this is what we want her to wear. And then he'd asked if he could see the body. And she was like, no, I'm sorry. You know, our policy is that someone else has to be here in order for us to do a viewing. So you'll have to wait until there's another person present. But you can do a viewing before, you know, we bring her out for the visitation and whatever. And she said she'd just gotten like a real weird vibe from Chad. And so he'd left and she'd immediately locked the funeral home door behind him and then he called her from the parking lot and said, hey, you know, I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here,

but I just wanted to let you know that I think you are beautiful. Ew. And if you're interested, I'd like to get your phone number or I can give you my phone number. What the? Yeah. And so she just like brushed him off

and got him off the phone. This dude had a problem. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, right? The defense tried to put up a couple of experts to counter the prosecution testimony but it wasn't great and it didn't stand up well on cross-examination. They put an expert who said, you know, basically this stuff could be cause for withdrawal.

Actually, the defense called her psychiatrist even, and he was like, yeah. He had to say, yeah, basically it could be. Sure. A seizure could be a withdrawal symptom from clonazepam. So here was the big argument about the clonazepam. She had a lower amount of that in her system than what her prescription would provide. But the argument for that, that the prosecution put up with their expert, is that even after death, clonazepam continues to break down in the body. So by the time the toxicology tests were done, that had been breaking down the whole time.

And so that wasn't any kind of proof that she hadn't taken her prescription that day or that she'd taken less than her normal prescription or that she was in any form of withdrawal. But the thing is, like, even if it had been from the prescription medication, she wouldn't have had bruising all over her. All over her body. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. They called, like, a forensic accountant type dude who talked about the Cutler's financial state.

They were in foreclosure for their house. They owed like $450,000 on it. One of their cars was paid off. The other was not. They had like a $30,000 car loan on it. But they had about $42,000 in the bank. Yeah. And that had been a payout, a severance package of Chad's when he had gotten laid off from his job. But yeah, they were in debt for about $450,000. It didn't look great. And at this time, Lisa was the only one bringing in any money. They also called an insurance expert to the stand who talked about those insurance policies.

who talked about those insurance policies. On April 21st, six days before Lisa died, Chad Cutler took out two policies in Lisa's name, totaling $700,000. In total, with all of these policies he'd managed to take out in her name, it was about $1.65 million.

Wow. He'd gained from her accidental death. Wow. And he had already started the process the same day she died to try and cash in on those policies. He even called the school she was employed with and was like, hey, this is Chad, Lisa Cutler's husband. She died last night. And they were like, oh my this is Chad, Lisa Cutler's husband. She died last night.

And they were like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Life insurance policy. I think she had a life insurance policy through the school district. Is that right? And they were like, wow. Yeah, we'll send you over the information. Yeah.

Hmm. information. Yeah. The prosecution's closing argument was delivered by Morgan County State's attorney, Jay Scott. He told the jury that the marriage between Lisa and Chad had not been a happy one and it hadn't been a happy one for a while. He laid out for them how Chad had prepped for Lisa's death by taking out those life insurance policies in her name. And then he specifically talked about that date, April 21st. That was a big day for Chad, he told the jury. That day, he'd been able to secure $700,000 in life insurance policies without Lisa having any idea. He said from there, Lisa only had a few more days to live. He reminded the jurors of the witnesses who had testified that Lisa was afraid of Chad

and that she had told people to look into him if something happened to her. He also read from Chad's own journal entry dated January 15th, 2012. Chad wrote, I don't blame her for her fear, but she's got to stop or she's got to go. Hmm. Yeah. I don't's got to go. Hmm. Yeah. I don't know any more context. Okay. I was going to say a fear of what?

I don't know any more context than that. That is all I know. So during the whole trial, the bathtub that Lisa had died in was sitting in the courtroom and the prosecutors brought in this mannequin and laid it in the bathtub and And the prosecutors brought in this mannequin and laid it in the bathtub and on the mannequin, they had put in like a little, put in? They had put in, they had put like a

little sticky note in each spot where her injuries were. All 23 of the injuries to all different parts of her body. It was a pretty dramatic move to show them like,

this is the bathtub. This mannequin is Lisa. These are the injuries to her body. Mm-hmm. And the dramatic move worked. The jury deliberated for only two hours

before finding Chad guilty. A judge sentenced him to 45 years in prison without the possibility of parole. He will have to serve all 45 years. Chad Cutler appealed his conviction on multiple grounds, including, but not limited to, inappropriately allowing hearsay evidence, prosecutorial misconduct over the way medical experts were questioned, and ineffective assistance from his defense attorney. Jeff Justice? Jeff Justice!

I don't think so. I know. Can you believe it? No. But in November of 2018, a three-judge panel affirmed his conviction and said that most of his appeal points were procedurally forfeited as they would have needed to have been brought up at trial, not after the fact. Following Lisa's death and Chad's arrest, the Cutler children went into foster care. And according to Lisa's brother, they have both found a place in great families and are doing really well. He said Lisa would be very proud of the people they have grown into.

Wow. And that's the story of a bathtub mystery. No mystery. It's the story of a bathtub mystery. No mystery. It's the story of a bathtub. That is the story of a bathtub murder. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree.

There's no mystery here. Oh, my God. He didn't even do it well. He did a terrible, I mean. Yeah. It was really bad. It was so obvious. I kind of want to know more about him.

I know. What other weird decisions did he make? Did he have a Daffy Duck neck tattoo? I don't think so. I did read in one article that he made a weird comment to one of the neighbors like right after Lisa died. And they were like, oh, my gosh, this is going to be so hard on your kids. Because they were like 11 and 8 or something like that. And he's like, nah, they're young.

They'll get over it. Yeah. See, who says shit like that? Exactly. Exactly. If for no other reason than like, I need to not say this. Otherwise, they'll know that I murdered her. Can we move the fudge on?

I hated that. Let's talk. God. All right. I remembered what we were supposed to talk to at the beginning of the show. Should we do it before we go to the Discord? What we were supposed to talk to? What are you talking about?

Talk about? Oh, okay. Did I say talk to? You sure did. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. At the beginning of the show, I was like, I feel like there was something we were supposed to talk about. What was it? We were supposed to make our announcement about our winter break and did. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. At the beginning of the show, I was like, I feel like there was something we were supposed to talk about. What was it?

We were supposed to make our announcement about our winter break and stuff. Oh, shoot. Yes. Yes. Okay, everyone. Yes. So, we will be off next week for Thanksgiving. And then we'll be back for a few weeks before Christmas, and then we'll be off for the holidays

and for a winter break. We're so excited for a winter break. Yeah, so this will be just like our summer break. We'll take a few weeks off. We'll be active on our Patreon still, but we won't be putting out weekly episodes and then we'll be back in February. We will continue to do bonus episodes

on Patreon. That is correct. So if you need a taste of us. That's right. I'm just going to elaborate on taste. I know. I don't want to. Stop it right there. All right.

But yeah, this will give us some time to enjoy, some time with our families and rest and refresh and come back in the new year with some hot new stories. You can tell real hot stories. This is going to turn into a porn podcast, apparently. Kristen, I'm sorry that this is how you're learning about our format, Jane. I feel like I've been preparing for it for years now. All right, should we take some questions from our Discord?

Yes. Ooh, Shabam Shabam wants to know, Kristen, what went through your mind when Brandy was trying to convince you that she was going to date around when she got on Tinder? And how long did it take for you to call her out when she and David were in a relationship a week later, going through something similar with a friend who also listens? Okay, well, I feel like, and correct me if I'm wrong, I feel like the second you told me you were going to go through a hoe phase, I just rolled my eyes immediately. You're like, okay, uh-huh. Actually, you were like, I would love for you to do that, but you're not going to. No, I wanted you to. I wanted you to, like, play the field, see what's out there.

But that is not your style. Not my style. What was the second part of the question? And how long did it take you to call her out when she and David were in a relationship like a week later? I feel like immediately. Immediately. And I was like, no, no, we're keeping it super casual.

It's super casual. Oh my god, you were so ridiculous. Yeah, so it's just like a little thing. But he's moving in in two days. Oh, and then you were like, do you think I'm moving too fast? And you had this look like, tell me I'm being bad. It was like, oh, my God. Lord almighty.

You were so proud of yourself. Lola Z wants to know, Brandy, what are your feelings toward child beauty pageants? We know London would win, but would you ever enter her? And Kristen, how would you stop Brandy from scarring her child for life? No, I would never put London in a pageant. We just talked about this the other week. We did. And I think you would.

Okay. Because your question was, yeah, if someone approached you and was like, oh my God, at the mall. Someone approached you at the mall and was like, we've got to get that kid in pageants. Yeah. Oh my God, look at this very amazing baby.

Yeah, yeah. And I think that that wouldn't be enough. I would say no, you know, absolutely. But then if they were like, oh, my gosh, she's the most beautiful. She's so unique. She's so different. She's the most beautiful baby ever. It'd be like somebody trying to get me into a cult, and it would probably work.

Yeah, it would definitely work. Yeah. And it would be kind of like the hoe face. It'd be like, you know, you'd be like, well, I'm just thinking about putting her in patches. You know, it's really not that scary or anything. And then, like, two days later, you have a flipper for her. You're taking her in to get spray tanned. Oh, no.

Kristen Would Hate Me wants to know, Brand Brandy what's your secret tattoo like eyeliner I'm a photographer and mine always leaves A black puddle from all the squinting Puddle of mud I wear Stila stay all day Liquid eyeliner it's like felt tip pen It goes on so easy and it legit

Stays all day All day that's right They're not lying to you are they felt-tip pen. It goes on so easy and it legit stays all day. That's right. They're not lying to you, are they? They are not. Ooh, Froghat wants to know do you guys watch Hallmark Christmas movies? I do not. I can't stand them. No. I guess I've never tried. Neither have I. I mean, admittedly.

But I have a feeling they're not for me. Yeah, and aren't they all just the same and like, oh, her dad's sick, so she has to move back to her hometown. Hold on. You don't like it when it's all the same and you're watching this murder show that's like, was it an accident? And it's always the husband

and he's like, why? Because I can call it from the beginning. I'm like, no, this motherfucker did it! You're like, oh, hold on, hold on. I'm a genius. I know what's happening here. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Insurance policies? Okay. Panic at the Discord wants to know, favorite case covered by each other? I think my favorite case you've ever done,

oh, I have two. Okay. The juvenile Bigfoot reluctant lottery winner. Yeah. I loved that case. Mm-hmm. And then also the Tony Kiritsis.

Oh, yeah. Dead Man's Line, that case. I fucking loved that case. My favorite one? I loved when you did The Watcher. Oh, yeah. Oh, that was so good. Yeah, that's a good one.

And I really like any kidnapping ones you do. I'm pretty into the kidnappings. Kristen's a kidnapper. Hey. Okay, I feel like this is, oh boy, my dad just texted us. Oh no. Oh boy. Okay, so dad just texted me, you, and Norman.

He just listened to the episode where Norm guest starred. And Dad said, Listening to the podcast now, Norman is a professional historian trying to teach slash inform a couple of interrupting yahoos. Poor Norman. I mean, he's not wrong. Other people vote that way, too. Okay, Haven Monahan wants to know, would you run naked in a mall for three minutes for

$30 million? Oh, you'd have to hold me back. $30 million? Okay, but does it... Yeah, I'd do it. You look like you're not... $30 million. I'd have to do it. I wouldn't like it, but I'd have to

do it. What if everyone else loved it? No, no one's going to love that. Can it not be my mall? No, it has to be your mall. It does, but I can't go there anymore. You can too. Yeah, for $30 million, I'm doing it. Absolutely.

100% doing it. I feel like maybe you wouldn't. I'd think real hard. You would. it. Absolutely. 100% doing it. I feel like maybe you wouldn't. I'd think real hard. You would. I'm a never nude, Kristen. I know you are. Oh my. Ass-eating coffee lover wants to know

was Norm really accused of ruining your feminist agenda? What's the story there? Okay, yeah. So, the story is like a long time ago, back when Norm used to be on the podcast regularly

as like our audio engineer, someone left a review that was like he was ruining the feminist agenda. Or some weird crap like that. And, yeah,

and then Norm was like, yeah, I don't have to be here. So, I'm just gonna to be here. I'm just going to not be anymore. He was not too hurt by it, I got to say. He was just like, all right, goodbye. All right, bye.

Lays Ruffles and Cottage Cheese wants to know, do you have a favorite outfit? If so, what is it? Mine is the jeans with my black shirt. That's my favorite outfit. Oh, my God. Allie roasted me so hard. She did? So we went over to see,

Norm hadn't seen their new house, so we went over to see, Norm hadn't seen their new house. Yeah. So we went over to go see it. And we were like, oh, it's so nice. It's so nice. And Alexandra, you know, showed us her room. And she was like, yeah, my mom made me clean up because we were having guests. And I was like, oh, well, yeah, you're having very fancy guests.

Yeah. Because, you know, like, we're here. And she goes, yeah, so imagine my surprise when you showed up in a Taco Bell t-shirt and sweatpants. It's like, all right.

I laughed so hard. Oh, no. All right, okay. Ooh, a local frog asks, overrated Thanksgiving food? Hmm. I, gravy.

You're weird. I don't like gravy. Turkey. Hmm. I like turkey. Well, I guess we'll just have to fight to the death. Oh, God. Greedy Little Beaver wants to know, if you were forced to get a tattoo of a Looney Tunes

character, who would you pick and why? Oh, my God. Can I run through them all naked instead? Oh, God. I would hate that. Yeah. I would pick that big red-haired monster thing. Me?

And then I'd write Kristen under that. What's that guy's name? I don't know. You don't know what I'm talking about? Yosemite Sam? No, no, no, no, no. This is a fringe character. I know exactly who you mean.

I'm sorry. Red, hairy, monster. Looney Tunes. This guy. This guy right here. His name is Raising Hair, maybe. No, Gossamer. This guy.

Oh, I was not picturing him. That's not who you were picturing? That's weird. Because he looks so much like you. Look, he's like a monster and he wears tennis shoes. Oh, yeah. I would get Pepe Le Pew

like right by my vag. Like he's raping you? He is raping. Yeah. Yeah, he's terrible. You want to get the rapiest character? Like, they don't even air Pepe Le Pew anymore because he's so rapey. Thank God.

Yeah. That was the creepiest little show ever. Have they really gotten rid of it? Yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. He shall good. Yeah. He shall live forever on my vagina. On your vag!

Hmm. Let's go to Costco once in a while. Kristen, will you be enjoying sausage brunch? Let's go to Costco. Sausage brunch for Thanksgiving. Hell yeah! Well, actually, no, we do more that's more of a Christmas. That's special. But you know, we do that quite a bit around the holidays.

So, you know, you can't rule it out. Old and decrepit 25-year-old asks, Brandy, would you like to address the picture of London with Oreo on her face? I've made it quite clear on this podcast that I don't like pictures of kids with food on their face. And everybody thought that that would change when I had London. And it has not. I still do not like pictures of kids with food on their face, even my kid. So today, my mother gave London the first Oreo of her life. And, of course, she loved it because Oreos are delicious.

Because it's an Oreo, yes. And then she came in the Discord and posted a picture of her with Oreo all over her face. And I do not approve. She looked cute as a button. She did look cute. But I still don't like it. Should we move on to Supreme Court Inductions? Yes, Supreme Court Inductions.

Oh, for fuck's sake. Can you sing a song or something? I'm way at the top. Oh, my God. I feel like I could explode. Do you need to go number two? No. I feel like I need to fart my way to the moon.

And I have felt this way through your entire case. And I've just been like. Clenching. I'm on the edge of glory. I'm going to blow it out my butthole. Oh, oh my. Oh, it's the best song. You get upset. Oh, oh my. Oh, it's the best song.

It's the best song. I don't know. It's like the combination of the pasta and the coffee. Yes, building up inside you. Oh my lord. Inside of you. Inside of you. Well, we've been recording for almost three hours. Yeah, let's get this fucking show on the road.

And I'm such a lady that I haven't farted in here. This is a very small room. We would be trapped with that fart, so I thank you. You're doing the Lurds work over there. You're welcome. All right, we will be doing names and cookies for this week's inductions. Claire DeLune.

Chocolate Coconut Clusters. In bulk. Shelly Martinez. Crispy Overcooked Chocolate Chip. Chocolate Coconut Clusters. In bulk. Shelly Martinez. Crispy Overcooked Chocolate Chip. Nikki Kinnaman. Thin Mint. Salem. Chocolate Chunk.

From Fabulous Cookies. What's Fabulous Cookies? A place that sells fabulous cookies. Kim Clark. My Mother-in-Law's Monster Cookies. Jill C. Milano's. Allison P.

Browned butter brown sugar cookies. Okay, somebody else has said something to this effect. I need to try this. I'm looking at a recipe. White good. Olivia H. Shortbread. No relation to Mrs. Potts and Chip.

Oreos dipped in milk. Stephanie Stovall. White chocolate chunk. Lindsay R. Old-fashioned soft sugar cookies. Margie. Butter cookies coated with dark chocolate. Veronica G. Tagalongs. Erica. Chocolate chip with nuts. Nathan Lucas. Mint chocolate. Malibu Jim. Mint Oreo. Mary Joukowsky. Frozen thin mints dipped in hot cocoa. Oh, fuck. She really stepped that up a notch.

She's like Emeril over there. All right. Bam. Bam. Kay Saunders. Crushed peppermint sugar cookies. Annette McGardle. Whatever delicious morsel is currently closest to my mouth. I can't remember. Jennifer Baird. Annette McArdle.

Jennifer Baird. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you for all of your support. Kristen's about to die. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a

five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web, and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from FamousTrials.com, the Korematsu Institute, Smithsonian Magazine, and Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, articles for The Herald and Review, Insurance News Net, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read. There's stuff. The Herald.