Let's Go To Court! - 198: The Murder of Ahmaud Arbery & a Mysterious Pool Death

Episode Date: December 8, 2021

Nearly every day, Ahmaud Arbery went out for a jog. February 23, 2020 was no exception. His route included a loop through Satilla Shores – a neighborhood just a couple miles from his own, but not nearly as racially diverse. After a while, a truck with a Confederate flag vanity plate began following Ahmaud. Inside the truck were Gregory and Travis McMichael. Both men had guns. They yelled at Ahmaud to stop. They wanted to “talk to him.” Ahmaud wasn’t interested. He tried to get away from the men, but soon, a man named William Roddie Bryan joined in. He used his truck to trap Ahmaud. Ahmaud had nowhere to run.  Then, Brandi tells us about a mysterious pool death. As handyman Gerald Gardener walked toward the back of Samira and Adam Frasch’s home, he spotted the couple’s dog running loose by the pool. Then he saw a pair of sandals. One was caught under a hose on the first step of the pool. The other floated nearby. Gerald moved in closer. That’s when he spotted Samira, dead at the bottom of the pool. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: Episode of 20/20, “Nowhere to Run” Episode of 48 hours, “A Promise to Ahmaud” “Ex-Brunswick DA indicted for misconduct in Ahmaud Arbery case surrenders,” by Brittany Muller for News4Jax “In Ahmaud Arbery’s name, Georgia repeals citizen’s arrest law,” by Emma Hurt for NPR “Factbox: Who was Ahmaud Arbery?” by Rich McKay for Reuters “The citizen’s arrest law cited in Arbery’s killing dates back to the Civil War,” by Frances Robles for the New York Times “Ahmaud Arbery: Waycross district attorney explains in letter why no one was arrested in 25-year-old’s shooting death,” by Amber Krycka for Action News Jax “Race not a factor jurors will consider in the case of three men accused of murdering Ahmaud Arbery,” by Anne Schindler for First Coast News In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Illicit Affairs” episode In Ice Cold Blood “At The Bottom Of The Pool” episode Dateline “Frasch murder investigation reveals couple’s torrid existence” by Jennifer Portman, Pensacola News Journal “Samira Frasch” chillingcrimes.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 29+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the murder of Ahmaud Arbery. And I'll be talking about a mysterious pool death. What's the mystery?

Exactly. The mystery. Okay, okay. Kristen hates mysteries. I. The mystery. Okay. Kristen hates mysteries. I do hate mysteries. I like everything to be cut and dry. I was about to say black and white, but that felt a little too on the nose for my face. That is a bit on the nose for your case.

Yeah. Woo. Everybody buckle up. Boo. Ew. When I texted you that I was doing this case, you were like, oh, geez. That was the sound you made, right? It is the sound I made.

I couldn't not do it. Yeah. I mean, it's big stuff. It's been in the news. You know, okay, I had, you know what? No, we're doing the thing where we talk about the case. No. What?

What does that mean? Well, it's like, I should tell. This is what we do on this podcast. No, but I mean, like, I should just tell the story and then give my thoughts on it instead of try to give you my thoughts and then tell the story. You know, there's an order to these things. We're a very by the book podcast, you see. Yeah.

With rules and regulations. I think we are. All right, you guys tell us to get out the case and don't even discuss anything. Actually, you know what? Before we do that, how was your Thanksgiving? It was good. Did you enjoy a turkey cheese ball? No.

That's weird because we made one. And the people who missed the Zoom call but still want to see it, that video is up and available on our Patreon. I'm sorry. I'm low energy, Jeff. Well, get it together. We did eat a delicious lunch. Did your eggs, Benedict, put you to sleep? No, it's this case.

I'm just feeling really down. Well, yeah, it's bad. There's something about doing a really sad case that's really recent that is somehow sadder. Yeah. Does that make sense to you? Yes, I completely get that. Yeah, normally I don't do ones that are so fresh, but this one I did, and I have been bummed out. Yeah. Yeah. And now you're all going to been bummed out. Yeah.

Yeah. And now you're all going to be bummed out with me. So. I was trying to do a Patreon ad. Yeah, okay. Well, hey. Hey, there's more bummers. More where this comes from.

You know, at the $5 level on our Patreon, you can get bonus episodes. Yeah. You can get into the Discord. That's right. At the $7 level, you get all that plus monthly Zoom call, monthly Zoom video. Yeah. In case you missed the call or in case you want to relive that moment. Yeah.

Or in case like your, you know, social anxiety doesn't allow you to get on the call, but you don't want to miss out on the action. Hey, we get all of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. miss out on the action. Hey, we get all of that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Also, this is one of two episodes left before we go on our winter break. Woo-hoo! So if you're going to miss us in the month of January, then you should sign up for our Patreon and catch up on all that back catalog. We got like, I don't even know, 29 episodes. And then we'll be releasing a new episode in January. Yeah. But just on Patreon.

Yeah. Only for the Patreons. If you miss me, that's where you're going to find me. Brandy. Are you scared? Yeah. Don't be scared. Okay.

This is- I can't believe the nuts you have taking this case. I'm so proud of you. Really? Yes. Really? Yeah. You know, it's not brave to cover something for a podcast.

I think cases like this are really scary to do, so... It's just a really upsetting one. Yeah, it's super upsetting. Okay, here we go. Shout-outs to an episode of 2020. Better than Dateline. No. Wrong.

False. Love 2020. Fake news. Titled Nowhere to Run. And an episode of 48 Hours titled A Promise to Ahmad. And then a bunch of great reporting. New York Times, NPR. Yeah.

How do you say that one? Reuters? Reuters? Yeah. Fake news. How do you say that one? Reuters? Reuters? Yeah. Thank you. Why did you say it like a question? Because it looks like routers to me, but I know it's not. It's not.

It's Reuters. Anyway, they did a great job, too. Okay, picture it. Brunswick, Georgia. Brunswick has a population of about 16,000 people. So as Norm would say, it's a pretty big city. Brunswick is beautiful. It's right on the water.

It has very cool architecture and a delightful assortment of trees. We're talking palm trees. What? You're going to go more into the trees? Weeping willows. Oak trees. What? You're going to go more into the trees? Weeping willows. Oak trees. The works. Hey, I get really excited when I see a palm tree and other types of trees.

You know what I mean? Like sometimes you just see the palm trees. You could plant a palm tree here. It would die. It would not. It would grow. Trust me, if I planted it, it would die. It could grow here. It would not. It would grow. Trust me, if I planted it, it would die. It could grow here.

It would look ridiculous. Well, you said you like a... Like beach-themed bathrooms in the Midwest. I'm looking at you. And Brunswick was where Ahmaud Arbery called home. You're going to love this. He was born on Mother's Day. I do love that. I know. I included that for you because you're so to love this. He was born on Mother's Day. I do love that.

I know. I included that for you because you're so into that stuff. I am. And he was the baby of the family. He had an older sister named Jasmine and an older brother named Marcus Jr. And he was the typical baby of the family. Super sweet and affectionate and funny and younger in age than everyone else in the family. That's what being the baby means, Kristen.

Could you tell that I wanted to add another thing, but I didn't know what to add to that? You know, that's the thing about babies in the family. They are all those things and younger than everyone else. At some point, Ahmaud's parents, Wanda Cooper-Jones and Marcus Sr. split up. So Wanda worked two jobs to provide for the kids. And it was tough, but she loved being a mom. And Ahmaud in particular brought a lot of joy into her life. He would always give her a kiss or a hug and always seemed to know when she was having a bad day and he'd be quick with a joke.

By the way, there's no natural place to put this, but it needs to be mentioned. Wanda has the type of bone structure that is so beautiful that it makes me angry. There's beautiful high cheekbones. You know, yeah, you know exactly the kind of face that makes me angry. It's the cheekbones. I'm sorry. I'm pulling up my face right now. Neither of us have real defined cheekbones. I'm sorry. I'm pulling up my face right now. Does neither of us have real defined cheekbones? No. Despite that, our supermodeling careers, I feel, are going to take off.

Yeah, any minute now. Pretty soon, round faces will be very in, I'm pretty sure. And these chipmunk cheeks are just going to be, you know, rocking the runway. Be looking for it, folks. Anyway, as Ahmaud grew up, he got super into a ton of sports. Can relate. Football was his passion, though. He was a linebacker on the Brunswick High School football team.

And we all know what a linebacker is, so there's no need for me to provide a definition. They backed the line. That's right. And he was really good They backed the line. That's right. And he was really good at backing the line. Ahmaud had dreams of playing in the NFL. And, okay, that may seem like, well, no shit. Well, yeah, every kid that plays football has dreams of playing in the NFL. But he actually has a cousin in the NFL.

Okay, great. Well, I mean, I'm just saying, like, other kids at his high school went on to play in the NFL. It was in his family. You don't think that's it? Come on. No. Are you curious at all about his life? I had dreams of becoming an astronaut, which were more realistic than anybody else's dreams,

because I have an uncle who went to space one time. Okay, you say that, but that would make you more likely, I think. Why not think it does? It would imply some connections, some know-how. Okay. Someone who's in the biz.

I'm going to kick your ass. I don't have an uncle who went to space, just to clarify. I know. Because, you know what, if you did, you'd be in space right now. No, but I sure would never shut up about it. Anyway, his cousin.

Sorry, I apologize. It's Tracy Walker. Okay. Plays for the Detroit Lions, which, fun fact, is a professional football team located in Michigan. Who's winless this season. That's rude to bring up. I wasn't going to bring that up. They've tied once this season.

Yeah, I know. You did not. I did too. It was against that other football team. The other team that also tied this season. Yeah, they're not very good either. Am I right? It was the Browns.

I honestly can't remember who they tied against. I watched the game. What if it fucking was? That'd be amazing. Like you going off into space. Me knowing a football fact. Like my uncle before me. Do you really not think that that has any bearing?

I don't. I think if you have a family member in a given profession. Yeah, I wanted to be a doctor and I'm much more likely to become a doctor because my cousin's a doctor. Yeah. You're saying that to me like it's stupid, but it's totally not stupid. I don't see what the one has to do anything with the other. My cousin's not going to help me become a doctor because he's a doctor. But you're going to know more about the steps it takes. About being a doctor?

You're going to know more about the steps it takes to do that. You're going to have a role model in your chosen profession. Okay. You have someone you can go to with questions. You've already seen it done within your own family. Representation matters, asshole. Everyone, I'm flipping her off. One for you and one for me.

Because I know the readers. The readers. The listeners. Everyone's reading this podcast. Don't worry. I haven't put my middle fingers down. Which is a weird thing to do. I just snorted.

Which is the second time today. Everyone, she snorted while she was eating a bite of waffle and it was hilarious. It was the quietest restaurant ever. Anyway, have you agreed that I'm right yet? Because we will not move on because I don't want to tell the rest of this story. You're absolutely correct. I'm much more likely to become a farm animal if my

cousin is already a farm animal. Well, I guess you would be an ass. Oh! Oh! Yeah! I get what you're saying. Yeah, you get what I'm saying

because it's common sense. If you have someone in your family... I don't think it makes you any more likely to become that, though. Are you for real? I am for real. You don't think it would increase your chances a little bit that you would go into a field that you'd already seen someone in your own family in? I think the possibility is... What are the chances that your grandpa had a sign shop

and now your dad has a sign shop? Yeah, that's different. It's the same sign shop. It's a competing sign shop. He put his dad out of business. Yeah, but that's like if somebody wants to start a sign shop, they start a sign shop. You don't just want to get in the NFL and you get in the NFL.

I understand that. I understand it's not only about desire. I'm not saying it's only about desire. Yeah. I get that. Do you? I do. You know what?

We should. Oh, my God. What if. What if we wanted to go on break early? So we created a fake fight? Fake argument to have right now. I think we've stumbled upon our argument. I feel quite passionate about it.

All right, blah, blah, blah. Here we go. Okay. But when Ahmad graduated high school in 2012, even though he'd been a standout player, no colleges asked him to play for them. He was only 5'10". And coaches just were like, you're too small. Yeah, pretty short for an athlete.

Clyde Edwards Hilaire, though, is only 5'8". And he plays for the Chiefs. I have no idea who that is. That sounds made up. Clyde Edwards Hilaire? Yeah. Sounds like the name of a ventriloquist dummy. It does.

It sounds totally made up. His first name is Clyde? Yeah, Clyde. With an E? Yeah. Okay, I like it. I like it. The E in the front is silent, though.

All right. What a stupid joke. A stupid joke after you've just made a very stupid point about how you're not likely to go into a given profession if you've seen it within your own family before. I think that's too broad of a statement. That's not what I'm saying. I think you're making it much more broader than I was making it. More broader?

Yeah, sorry. Now I sound like an idiot. Okay, so here we go. God, I'm not very far into this script. I'm sorry. It's all your fault. I apologize. Because you couldn't agree with all my smart points that I was making.

So Ahmad tried to come up with a new path. He moved out of the house and attended South Georgia Technical School to become an electrician. And I did not include this in the script, but I have to include this. Because his dad was an electrician. His uncles, he had uncles who were electricians. Can you fucking believe that? Yeah, I think that is more realistic. Yes, if you have

somebody in a trade in your family, somebody in a specific business, but saying he was more likely to go to the NFL because his cousin was in the NFL, that doesn't make any fucking sense to me. Yes, he had maybe a more desire than the average person. I get that.

Because he'd seen his cousin do it. And he had an inside look at it. Because his cousins had did it. And it was in the jeans, Brandi. And also he was wearing jeans. He was wearing jeans and they had the NFL logo stamped

all over him. I get it. Do you? But being an electrician was never his dream. And I submit that that was maybe because he'd only gone into it because he'd had people in the family who'd gone into that and so it just seemed more natural for him to go into that.

I agree with that point. I agree with that. Me too. I agree with it too. I too agree with that. Yes, yes. You can also see somebody be successful in that profession. You're like, oh, I'd like to be successful too.

I will become an electrician like my uncle. I agree. You're tweaking your position a little. I agree with this. I don't agree with the NFL thing. But I'm saying the exact same thing. Okay. Everyone knows you're much less likely to go into the NFL.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. All right. So. We're off the rails. We've been recording for 20 minutes.

Oh, no. Oh, no. So being an electrician was never his dream, and he really struggled financially. So after a year of technical college, he dropped out and moved back home with his mom. He got a job at a local car wash

and also worked for his father's landscaping business. But around this time, Ahmaud did get into some trouble. What? Nothing. You weren't going to say anything about how he went into the same business as his father? No. About a year after his high school graduation, he went back to his old high school to watch a basketball game and he had a gun on him. Yeah. So he was arrested for bringing a gun onto school grounds, and he was put on probation.

And in 2017, he was arrested for attempting to shoplift a TV at Walmart, which seems like a really difficult thing to steal. I have a theory on how he probably did it. Confidence? Just tried to walk out with it? Yeah. Yeah, that's the only way. You load it into a cart. Well, you're not going to put it under your T-shirt.

Yeah, you load it into a cart. Well, you're not going to put it under your T-shirt. Yeah, you load it into a cart and you're just walking out. But yeah, Walmart has some crazy loss prevention. They have like spies in the store. Do you know this? Do they? Yes. Well, I know they obviously have security.

No, they have spies who are dressed as shoppers just lurking around strategically placed in the electronics department, in the electronics department, in the cosmetics department, things that are commonly stolen. No. Yeah. And so they look for suspicious activity, and then they will then alert the loss prevention team. And then you think you've got your TV loaded in your car,

you're just going to walk out the door, door and bam they get you right at the door how much are these people paid i don't that i don't know because it has to be way more than what they pay all the other workers right i don't otherwise wouldn't you be bitter and be like take whatever you fucking want that's how i'd feel yeah so the reason i know this is because when I was a district manager, the. You tried to steal. No, I did not try to steal. No, when I was a district manager for a chain of salons, they had salons that were inside of Walmart.

So I worked for Regis. No. Anyway, one time there, like I saw some stuff go down because these salons were placed, like, right at the entrances. And so I witnessed this whole thing go down one time. And so then I asked this loss prevention guy, like, how it all works. And I don't think he was supposed to tell me. But he told me. And now here you sit.

And then he got fired, not for telling me, but he got fired because he chased somebody out of the store. And they're not allowed to do that. It's against policy because it puts themselves in danger and potential, like, bystanders in danger. Wow, but he was just so passionate. He was very passionate about loss prevention. That seems like the kind of reason you would get fired from that job. It is.

So much passion. It is exactly why I would get fired from that job. Someone would take a cheese stick. Okay, so he chased a guy out of the store during like the holiday season. So Walmart during the holiday season has all these like mobile storage units in the back of the parking lot where they store overstock. He chased a customer like through those storage bins and then he lost him. And then he got fired because he put himself in danger by doing that. Wow.

Yeah. I am amazed. That is a job that I would be terrible at. Because it's fucking Walmart. It's like a corporation. I mean. Yeah. You have to be able. You got to drink the corporate Kool-Aid.

Yeah, you really do. Yeah, to get. You got to feel real loyal. You have to have a passion. Yeah. Yeah. I honestly think if I saw someone stealing something from me. You're like, well, whatever. You're like, okay.

If you think I'm going to chase you. Okay, so. Yeah. Sorry, that was a very long tangent. No, I loved it. Okay. My question is, who knows who the secret spies are? So probably not even the employees, right?

Most of the employees don't know? I would say no, that the employees know. Because it's the same people. I mean, you get a lot of frequent flyers at your local Walmart. That's probably true. Yeah. I mean, I knew who they were and I didn't even work for Walmart. Oh, okay.

How'd you know? Because, like, they followed the same, maybe I'm more observant than the average bear. I think you're more observant. Because I could totally pick out who it was because they would go through the same routine. I'd watch them. They'd hover around the entrance waiting for that person they thought was going to steal.

And then they'd check receipts or check bins sometimes. But it was never the undercover person who does the actual checking. Of course. It's the actual like uniformed like loss prevention people. Well yeah because otherwise that would be nuts. Blowing the cover. Yeah. What did the undercover people look like? They just looked like regular people. They just had regular

clothes on. Like one guy wore a backpack. Wow. Yeah. Alright. Do you think Walmart's gonna sue us for me? No. Spilling all their secrets right now? No, I don't.

Although I've been wrong before. Also, our apologies to anyone who hates tangents. This is a really tangent-filled episode. Okay, so, you know, things were on. episode. Okay, so, you know, things were on. My uncle was a loss prevention undercover agent, which is why that is my passion in life.

I see how that could happen. But, you know, here's the problem. That's a pretty lofty position to have in life and I don't think you're cut out for it, okay? It takes more than just passion, Brandy. I hate to break it to you. You think just anyone

can put on a backpack and walk into a Walmart? Well, yes, I do. No. I don't think just anybody can put on a backpack and walk into Walmart and be paid for it. Hang out in the cosmetics all day. Keep an eye on the L'Oreal Voluminous. So it was around this time that Wanda really started to worry about her son.

His behavior was off. He'd always been so bright and bubbly, but it seemed that lately he was quiet and not super motivated. So she talked him into going to the doctor and being evaluated. And in December of 2018, Ahmad was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. Oh, wow. Yeah. So do you know something about it? No, I didn't know that at all.

Okay. So, oh, I was asking, like, if you knew something about the disorder. Oh, no. Okay. So, oh, I was asking, like, if you knew something about the disorder. Oh, no. Okay. So it's a mental health condition and it can include, you know, depression, manic episodes, auditory hallucinations. And, you know, since I'm not a doctor, I'm just an out-of-work supermodel with a Google machine. I'll stop there. Excellent. Uh-huh. So Ahmaud had this diagnosis and he did what he could to try to manage it. And one of the ways he managed it was through exercise. He loved to lift weights, but he especially loved running, which shout out anybody with anxiety and depression.

Running. Yeah. You find that helps? Well, I was about to say, gosh, but I guess if you're black, you need a treadmill, apparently, because that's... Yeah, you can't just go for a run. Teachers can't go for a run in a neighborhood. Jesus Christ. Okay, anyway, so when he was running, he felt like he was in total control.

He was at home when he was running. It was something he did, like, every day, unless it was pouring rain. In fact, the route Ahmad almost always took brought him to a neighborhood about two miles from where he lived. It was a mostly white subdivision called Satilla Shores. And Satilla Shores was a beautiful place to run. A lot of the houses are right on the water and there are huge, beautiful old trees running the lengths of the streets. I won't go into all the trees because i hate all kinds of trees but i wanted to be a tree because my uncle wasn't

but sadly it wasn't in the cards for me maybe i could chop you up, lady, huh? Sorry, that probably shouldn't be said on a true crime podcast. Everyone, please send angry emails to Brandy. Don't do that. In honor of Christmas. But even though this neighborhood is super close to Ahmad's own neighborhood, his mom, Wanda, didn't realize that he ran through that neighborhood. She said that if she knew, she would have asked him not to.

Oh, really? Like asking for trouble, putting him. Yeah, she just said she knew he'd be safe in their own neighborhood. It's a more diverse neighborhood, but perhaps not. I don't mean that to sound victim blaming. I think that. Well, that's exactly how it sounds. You monster. No, but I know what you mean.

Like she didn't want him to put himself in a situation that kind of like probably the same reason that black parents have to tell their kids be you know this is how you behave in front of the police whereas you know my parents obviously never had that conversation with me yeah so then came late february 2020 wanda had to leave for a business trip so she told ahmadmaud she loved him, and he said, I love you back, and she took off for Texas for a few days. The afternoon of February 23, 2020 was supposed to be unremarkable. Ahmaud did his normal thing, took off for his run a little bit before one, and later that day, Wanda received a phone call from an investigator at the Glynn County Police Department. The investigator told her that her son had been shot and killed breaking into a house. Oh, no.

That's how she was told? Mm-hmm. It's not even fucking true. No, it's not. And that's how we're giving death notifications apparently holy shit Wanda was stunned she couldn't believe it and really she didn't believe it no one who knew Ahmaud believed it. Ahmaud's friends and family. You know, the thing I liked about all these interviews, no one's trying to say he's like, oh, 100 percent perfect. But the idea that he would break into somebody's house.

No, it just didn't match up with who he was. Didn't make any sense. So Wanda started asking the investigator a lot of questions, as you would. And she got the unsettling feeling that she wasn't hearing the truth. It felt like the police were holding back something. Her youngest son was dead at 25, and the reason she was being given just didn't make sense. The family buried Ahmaud on a Saturday,

and that day Wanda made a promise to him. She promised him that she would get answers. That Monday morning, she woke up and got to work. At some point, she spotted an article in the Brunswick News. It was about Ahmaud's death, and the headline read, Police it sure as hell did. Because there was a huge difference between what the police had told Wanda and what was in the actual police report. Really? Yes. What did it say?

So she learned the reality of her son's death from reading this newspaper article. And this newspaper article basically said Ahmaud had not been caught burglarizing a house. In fact, he hadn't committed any crime at all. Instead, he'd been chased and trapped and killed in the street. And her son's murderers were known to police. Their identity was no mystery. They were former law enforcement officer Gregory McMichael, his son Travis McMichael, a veteran of the U.S. Coast Guard, and also Rhodey Bryan, a mechanic who has to stop cutting his own hair. Have you seen this man? I don't think I've seen his hair.

Look up Rhodey Bryan. I promise you, he cuts the front of that himself by putting tape across the front. He has like a real, a real... It's William Rhodey Bryan. I don't know if that'll... Oh, that might help. Oh, yeah. Is that not terrible?

Mm-hmm. As a professional, what are your thoughts? That is a bad haircut. Is what that is. I'm sorry. I pulled it up. Everyone, if you're not driving, you have to drop whatever you're doing and look up a picture. It's terrible.

It's kind of reminds me. That's for sure a home haircut. Oh, no question. Oh, wait. You know what? I just realized. This was happening in 2020. Probably was a literal hair.

Okay. Well, now. Well, I don't really feel bad for the guy. No, I don't feel bad for him. Yeah. Everybody else's hair looks pretty normal, I gotta say. Yeah, that's a bad haircut is what that is. That's just a bad haircut?

Don't care how he slaps it. So, Wanda was taking... That's past roadie, not roddy. I don't care. Okay. I think it's... I'll probably go back and forth. You'd call him whatever you want. Well, in that case...

I don't care. This motherfucker... Yeah, exactly. So Wanda was taken aback. Here they were, the men who'd killed her son. Yeah. And they weren't being charged with anything. Civil rights attorney Lee Merritt, who may sound familiar because I waxed poetically about his pocket squares in our episode about Botham Jean.

Oh, yeah. So he's the civil rights attorney for Maude's family. And poor Lee Merritt had the fun job of explaining to all of us 48 Hours viewers that the three white men were not charged because they were three white men. Hold on. Hold on. Slow down. Brandi, there's this thing called racism and it exists. When asked why no one was arrested, Lee Merritt said the victim was black, Merritt said the victim was black, the suspects were white, and this is South Georgia. That sums it up pretty accurately.

Yeah. By the way, I'm devastated to report that he didn't wear a pocket square in this episode of 48 Hours or in the 2020 episode. He still looked great, but you know. Yeah. You missed the pocket square. I did. did lee i'm sure you're listening please i'm sure please he has nothing better to pocket square we demand no we respectfully request brandy god damn it i'm sorry um my uncle was a pocket square really i heard your uncle was a little bitch and it was always your dream to follow in his footsteps and here i am

so yeah lee merritt says victim was black, suspects were white. This is South Georgia. And to add to that, not only were the suspects white, they were super well connected. Gregory McMichael wasn't just a former law enforcement officer. More specifically, he'd worked as an investigator for the DA's office. Oh, fuck. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

How much do you know about this story? Okay, I felt like I knew a lot, but you've introduced a lot of information that I don't know. I felt the same way going into this. There was a lot that I did not know, and it was all terrible. So here we go. I mean, I followed this whole thing, but apparently just from the surface. I did not dive into these murky racist waters. Well, now let's go under the sea. Under the sea. No one expected a Disney song. No.

They thought it might happen. They weren't really expecting it, though. So after the shooting, Gregory called his former boss, District Attorney Jackie Johnson, who always wears a gigantic pearl necklace that looks like it was stolen from a toddler's dress-up clothes. I'm serious. You look up photos of this lady, she always has the same ugly-ass necklace on. It's ugly? serious. You look up photos of this lady, she always has the same ugly ass necklace on. It's ugly?

It's so, it looks like a toddler's dress up necklace. Okay. Alright. I thought you were a big fan of pearl necklaces. Alright, shut up. I knew you were gonna, good grief. Good grief. I should have known this. Your uncle was disgusting too.

Ha ha ha ha ha! In that message, Gregory told Jackie that he and his son had been involved in a shooting and that he needed her to call him right away. And oh, get a load of this. The police department said that that day the D.A.'s office advised them not to make any arrests in this case. Don't arrest any of the three white men. Yeah, especially the one who used to work for the DA's office. And don't worry about the fact that they videotaped themselves committing the crime. Murdering someone?

Yeah. No, no, no, no. Brandy, Brandy, hold on. This was self-defense. No, it wasn't. You know how when someone comes up to you unarmed and you have a gun?

You have to shoot them in self-defense? Yeah. No. We all know how that goes. Weird. No, what you know how that goes. No. Weird. No, what you've just described is a murder. No! Wow!

Oh, look at that. Jackie ended up recusing herself from the case because of her, you know, relationship with Gregory McMichaels. Not a minute too soon. Yeah. Right? And meanwhile, Wanda kept calling. What's going on with my son's case? What's happening? Why haven't there been any arrests? Most of her calls went unanswered, but those folks didn't know who they were dealing with.

With Jackie recusing herself, a new DA was assigned to the case, George Barnhill. Wanda went into full investigatory mode. She had promised her son she would get answers and she was going to do it. So she went to town scouring social media, learning everything she could about this George Barnhill guy. And that's how she discovered that DA George Barnhill was Facebook friends with Gregory McMichaels. We'll fucking recuse him, too. Get the fuck out of here. You ready for a little more?

Yeah. She also discovered that George Barnhill had a son whose smile is all gums, by the way. I mean, this guy smiles and you barely even see teeth. It's just all gums. His name is also gums, by the way. I mean, this guy smiles and you barely even see teeth. It's just all gums. His name is also George Barnhill. And he worked for the shitty D.A. in Glynn County, Jackie Johnson. Great. So Wanda called anyone who would listen saying, I don't think this new guy is neutral.

He has a lot of ties to this case. So George did recuse himself. But he didn't think it was necessary when he did he wrote a letter to the police about the case and the letter was nuts in it he was like the victim's mother thinks that there are biases and kinships between parties there aren't though by the way here are my thoughts on this whole thing in in case you're interested. This was clearly a case of self-defense. No criminal charges are warranted in this case.

After all, who was to blame for the murder of Ahmaud Arbery? Probably Ahmaud Arbery. No! No, get a load of this. Toward the end of the letter, he wrote, and this is a quote, Arbery's mental health records and prior convictions help explain his apparent aggressive nature and his possible thought pattern to attack an armed man. What? Mm-hmm.

They do what now? Yeah. He was running away from men who were chasing him with guns. With guns. But he's the aggressor. George evidently has a habit of writing stupid letters because in his letter of recusal to the Georgia Attorney General, George shared this super relevant information about Ahmaud's family. You ready? Quote, this family are not strangers to the local criminal justice system.

From best we can tell, Ahmaud's older brother has gone to prison in the past and is currently in the Glen Jail without bond, awaiting new felony prosecution. It also appears a cousin has been prosecuted by the DA's office. Cool. I'm very glad that George mentioned that in his letter, because as we all know, if you have a family member who has gone to prison, then you can be murdered for no reason. That's not the law. Oh, is that not?

Oh, whoops. Whoops. No, that's not the law. Oh, is that not? Oh, whoops. Whoops. No, that's not the law. So at this point, with George recusing himself, a new DA stepped in. Tom Durden. Durden? Durden. I'm sorry.

I thought in my head it should be Darden, but then I realized, no, there's a U there. So Durden. Tyler Durden. Who's Tyler Durden? Is that not his name? Who? Hold on. Is it someone we went to high school with?

No. That's his name. What? The first rule about Tyler Durden is that you don't talk about Tyler Durden. Oh, is this Fight Club? Yes. God. Pass.

Pass. So it had been two months since Ahmaud's murder. Wanda was still trying to get answers. She'd been trying to get people to pay attention, but the pandemic had just started. And people's attention, for the most part, was elsewhere. But then she got a call from the New York Times. A reporter had heard about Ahmaud and wanted to write a story about him. And he did. And it was huge.

All of a sudden, the national media was looking at this case and people were wondering, what the hell was going on. An unarmed black man who'd been out for a jog had been followed and murdered, and his killers were just allowed to chill? Yeah. Yes, that's exactly what was happening. Brandi, I can tell that you're worried about how Gregory and Travis McMichaels are holding up. I'm not. I can tell you're super concerned. And you're right. This was very upsetting for them. Not upsetting. Yeah, it was upsetting because they hadn't done anything wrong. No, they'd murdered a man. They were blameless.

No, they had murdered an unarmed black man. They had video to prove that they were blameless. No, they had video that proved that they murdered an unarmed black man. Are you familiar with this next part? Okay, I'm going to tell you a little more. So they had video footage of them following and trapping Ahmaud Arbery and shooting him three times and letting him die in the streets. Okay. Is this okay?

Uh-huh. Let me see if my memory is correct here. Okay. Is this? Okay. Uh-huh. Let me see if my memory is correct here. Okay. Did they release this video and think that the world was going to be on their side? They sure as shit did. Yes. Yes. I do recall that.

Can you believe that? No! Yeah. So they thought if people could just see the footage, everyone would agree that they'd done the right thing. This would all be over. People would stop being mean to them. I can't believe that. I had always just assumed that it got leaked by like a family friend or like someone had done something. It never even occurred to me.

That they put it out there themselves? Yes. And so I watched the 48 Hours episode. They said in the episode, these guys put it out. And even then I was like, that has to be an error. That can't possibly be right. But no, they put it out. Yeah.

Oh, God. They had a local criminal defense attorney give the footage to a local radio station, WGIG. And on May 5th, 2020, what? Are they unfamiliar with how radio works? And on May 5th, 2020, the station posted the video to Twitter. Keep your pants on. They wanted everybody to see the video, so they gave it to radio.

No one accused these men of being bright. And yeah, sure enough, the video went viral. Yeah. And not for the reasons they thought it would. Turns out people were horrified by the video. It was a video of an innocent, unarmed man being murdered in the streets. Yeah. It's the video of a lynching.

Yeah. Within no time, the Georgia governor asked the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to take over the case. Or in PR speak, the governor offered the help of the gbi and da tom durden was like oh you know what i i could have done this myself but yes i will accept your help that would be a little you know give me a fucking break anyway on may 7th 2020 two days after the video went viral gbi agents arrested gregory and tra, shocking. Wow. It had been 74 days since they'd murdered Ahmaud. Wow. Two weeks later, the GBI arrested Rhodey Bryan. What did I call him earlier? Roddy? That's what you called him. Okay. I think it's pronounced Roddy, but I don't care.

With these arrests and the video footage and an actual investigation, a fuller picture of what happened on February 23rd began to emerge. Here's what came out. That day, a little before 1, Ahmaud Arbery went for his daily run. And at one point, he arrived at 220 Satilla Drive. So let's pause for a second. 220 Satilla Drive was basically a construction site. It was a home that was in the process of being built. And the walls were up.

The roof was on. But it didn't have doors. It didn't have garage doors. So it's a structure that's coming together. Like a shell. That's right. A shell of a man. Which describes all your ex-boyfriends after you ripped their hearts apart.

That hoe face really damaged a lot of people, Brandy. Damaged exactly zero people. No hearts were crushed in Brandy's hoe face. So the guy who owned the place was Larry English and Larry English was pissed off because looky-loos kept coming onto his property and looking around as looky-loos will do. Yeah. They want to see

what's going on. How's the construction going? Mm-hmm. This was coming on the backs of what some people say were a string of burglaries in the neighborhood. It looks like more like it was maybe one instance of someone stealing guns from Travis McMichael's unlocked truck. Great. Let's just leave firearms in an unlocked truck.

OK, I know this will be unpopular, but should you be allowed to keep your guns if you keep them in an unlocked truck? I, you know, I'd be interested to see how this goes in other areas. Yeah. But in Kansas City, if anyone has something stolen out of an unlocked vehicle, I'm sorry. We don't feel sorry for you. No. That's your own fault. Secure your shit.

Secure your shit, as they say. So at any rate, Larry English put up some surveillance cameras inside the home, and those cameras captured footage of, you know, two little kids riding up on bikes, walking around in the house. There was footage of a white couple going up to the house and walking around in it, and there was footage of Ahmaud walking through the house. It seemed that a couple of times Ahmaud had walked through the house that was under construction.

He hadn't taken anything, he hadn't done anything. Just like everyone else, he'd gone in, looked around, and left. But nonetheless, Larry English was not happy. Have you ever done this before? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Yeah? Well, yes, but it was my parents' house.

Oh, yeah, that doesn't count. That doesn't really count. Yeah. I feel like as a kid, though, we had friends who lived in a neighborhood where houses were still being built and we'd, like, go over to the unfinished houses. Yeah, look around.

Yeah. Okay, my thought as a runner. You was looking for somewhere to poop? Yes, I do. Yeah. I honestly do. Yeah, I think that's very possible. I mean, I could be wrong.

Maybe he was just looking around, but yeah. The urge befalls you when you're running yeah I mean alright anyway that's my theory no one else I kept waiting for someone else

to have this theory I've not heard it from anyone else I'm like am I the only weirdo well obviously not because I right away knew what you were going to say. You and I are both weirdo. That's true. So getting back up from you is really not like, oh, Brandy also says. Hey, but last episode we were right.

It is LeVar Burton who played Geordi, it turns out, is his name. With the laser thing around his eyes. You mean the headband around his eyes. Yes. Yeah. Laser headband. Well, check it out, everyone. We've been right once. So Larry English alerted the neighbors, and it sure seems like everyone paid a little

extra attention to the fact that a black man had walked through the site. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. walked through the site. Yeah. Yeah. On February 23rd, 2020, Ahmaud went on his run and he got to 220 Satilla Drive and he walked in the structure and didn't take anything, didn't do anything. But one of the neighbors noticed and called the police. And it was kind of a weird call because the dispatcher was like, you said someone is breaking into it right now? And the caller had to be like, well, no, it's all open.

It's under construction. And at some point, Ahmad left the place and continued his run because, you know, he wasn't there for long. And the caller was like, oh, he's running down the street. And the dispatcher had to be like, okay, I just need to know what he was doing wrong. Was he just on the premises and not supposed to be? Yeah. Clearly, the dispatcher didn't understand what a dire situation this was. No, it just wasn't a dire situation. No, it was just no fucking big deal at all.

Just no fucking big deal at all. But as a mod. And probably if the neighbor had been like, hey, nobody's supposed to be in there. He probably just would have been like on his merry way. Absolutely. But also mind your fucking business. Someone's going in and not doing anything. Who gives a shit? Take up knitting.

Am I right? Take up knitting. Am I right? So Ahmaud continued on his run and Gregory McMichael spotted him. Gregory claims that he recognized Ahmaud from the surveillance footage. So he alerted his son, Travis, and they grabbed their guns and took off after Ahmaud in their pickup truck. What's up, Brandy? I just hate this so much.

Don't think he recognized him? No. I don't think so either. No. I've watched that surveillance footage. It's black and white grainy surveillance footage. Yeah. No, I think he saw a black man in his white neighborhood. Mm-hmm.

So, you know, they've got their guns, they're in their truck, and they asked Ahmad to stop. They just wanted to talk to him. Please! Please! But they were two white guys brandishing guns, driving a pickup truck with a Confederate flag vanity license plate on the front. So weirdly, Ahmaud did not stop to talk to these guys. Can't imagine why. Imagine that.

Yeah. So they kept riding down the road and Ahmaud on foot and the McMichaels in the pickup truck, and they rode past Rhodey Bryan's house. Rhodey was out on his porch. He saw what was going on and he ran inside, grabbed his keys and his cell phone, hopped in his own pickup truck and took off after them to assist. So at this point, Ahmaud started to turn the other way. And Rhodey started filming on his cell phone. And Ahmaud realized that he was trapped between the two trucks.

Ahmaud got away, but only briefly, because Rhodey caught up with him again. And by this point, the McMichaels took another route to circle around and get in front of Ahmaud. So once again, he was trapped. The McMichaels were at or near the intersection of Satilla Drive and Holmes Road. Gregory was standing in the truck bed with a.357 Magnum, and Travis was standing inside the driver's side door with a shotgun. At about 1.15 p.m., Gregory called 911. Here's what he said.

I'm right here at Satilla Shores. There's a black male running down the street. Dispatcher. That's the crime? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What is your emergency? There's a black man running down the street.

Well, that's the truth. Yeah, that was the emergency. Mm-hmm. Sound the fucking alarm. So the dispatcher goes, Satilla, where, where, where? At Satilla Shores? And Gregory goes, I don't know what street we're on. And then, you know, it's clear he's yelling to Ahmaud, stop right there.

Damn it, stop. Ahmaud changed directions, but Travis caught up to him by the front bumper. So at this point, Ahmaud was right there, face to face with one man who had a gun and another man standing in a pickup truck who also had a gun. And Ahmaud began to fight for his life. So obviously there's video of this, but it's kind of hard to see. And of course, there's debate over what happens. But he and Travis struggled for control of the gun. And Travis fired and fired again and fired again.

Ahmaud was shot twice in the chest and once in the wrist. He stumbled and collapsed in the middle of the street. And as Ahmaud lay dying, Rhodey says Travis uttered, fucking N-word. Cool. Police got to the scene very quickly because a brave caller had already alerted them that a black man had been running down the road. And the body cams captured all of this. Gregory and Travis were huffing and puffing. Gregory in particular was super chatty.

He was very quick to let the police know about his own background. He said, so I grabbed my.357 Magnum. It's an old Glynn County PD issue, by the way, when I was a cop. Yeah, I was chief investigator for the DA's office for 33 years. And Gregory, who looks like if you put toothpick legs on Santa Claus, told the officers, he had no choice, man. He had no choice. He does!

He looks exactly like Santa Claus with toothpick legs. How do you know what Santa Claus' legs look like under that big old fluffy suit? You can tell that Santa fills out his uniform nicely. You think he's got a nice muscular leg? I think he's got a beefy leg on him. Okay.

Gregory, not so much. What if that's just insulation built into the pants to keep his little toothpick legs warm? Well, then. Maybe Gregory. Color me embarrassed. There's footage of Gregory with his arms on Travis's shoulders saying, Travis, you had no choice. You had no choice.

Yes, you fucking did. Yeah. You made a choice. You drove after someone. You chased him for five minutes and then you shot three times. This is infuriating. Oh, yeah. It's really bad.

Are you ready for something more infuriating? Well, I don't know that it's more infuriating, but the body cam footage shows that, or at least it appears to show that the first officer who got there assumed Ahmad was dead. In reality, he wasn't. Didn't offer any aid of any kind. Didn't appear to. Didn't. Did he? Secured the scene. Okay.

Did he call for med? Well, backup arrived pretty quickly. So a second officer showed up and was like, hey, he's still breathing. And the first officer was like, yep, I know, I'm trying to do something for him. But what that was, I have no fucking idea because he'd already secured the scene. He didn't appear to have gone over to Ahmaud at all.

So the police continued to talk to Gregory and Travis and Roddy. By the way, Ahmaud did die pretty quickly after this. But still, it's just, it's disturbing. Yeah, they had nothing to try and save him. Gregory was not choked up at all. In fact, on 2020, they referred to him as animated, and I think that's the perfect word for it. Yeah, he's all, he's probably like, he's dealing with an adrenaline rush.

He thinks he's a savior. I think he's also trying to cover his son's ass. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. I think so. Yeah. And it's like, I think this is the performance of his life. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I think so. Yeah. And it's like, I think this is the performance of his life. Yeah.

No, that makes sense. That makes sense. He says, this guy who we've seen on video numerous times breaking into these other houses, he comes hauling ass down the street. Which, breaking into these other houses. What? Yeah. He referred to Ahmaud as an asshole.

Wow. He did admit that he didn't technically know whether Ahmaud had committed a crime before they started chasing him. But details, right? Travis was interviewed with blood all over him. And Travis said that he'd seen Ahmaud at the construction site two weeks earlier. And then his dad saw him running by today. Gregory was super surprised that Ahmaud had been so reluctant to talk to them. He told the officers, we pulled up beside him, said, hey, stop, stop. We want to talk to you. And he just keeps on running.

You had fucking guns. You had guns. And I'm sorry. I've had weird men come up to me and try to talk to me. You think I'd stop and talk? No. So, yeah, I bet if a guy comes up to you with a gun, yeah, you're not going to be like, oh, sure. What could I do for you? Yeah.

gun yeah you're not gonna be like oh sure what could i do for you yeah travis told them that he had no choice but to do what he did he told them i told him stop stop stop till he hit me and i had nothing to do nothing else i can do roadie brian told the police that he had a video of the whole thing. And, you know, he was pretty sure it was all Ahmad's fault. He said, if the guy would have stopped, you know what I mean, find out what was going on, he obviously was up to something. I mean, this would have never happened. He was obviously up to something because he was running away from three men chasing him who were armed? Mm-hmm. No, I wouldn't fucking stop for that either obviously up to something oh my goodness gracious the other thing is like okay so you think he went into this

under construction house and you think he burglarized it in some way. Where's the stuff? Yeah, what does he have? What did he take? He was out for a run shirtless. So where... Yeah, where's he hiding the stuff? Yeah.

Interestingly, right after that, Rhodey said, you know know should we have been chasing him i don't know you know wow yeah so they had all that information the day this murder occurred and yet it still took months for anyone to be arrested. But now it was the fall of 2021, Brandi, and it was trial time. And I must say, the McMichael boys got a real glow up. You know, we talk about ladies getting the glow up for trial. Yeah, the trial glow up.

I mean, this is really, in the body cam footage, they look like terrifying rednecks. Yeah. I mean, out of control facial hair, bellies that popped out from under their shirts. But in court, they'd really toned down the facial hair. They wore little glasses, little suits. Yeah. They got a trial glow up. Mm-hmm. These aren't scary rednecks.

No. These are just, you know. Professionals. Yeah. Professional men, you know. Who own beard trimmers. Yeah. Care about their neighborhood.

Mm-hmm. Right off the bat, things started off shitty because, of course, they did. Fun fact, 27% of the people in Glynn County are black, and yet somehow the jury for this trial included 11 white people and just one black person. Yeah. Amazing how that works. The defense used 11 of its 12 allotted strikes on black jurors. I was wondering if you were going to include that statistic.

That's a statistic I remember well reading about this. I can't believe that is allowed. reading about this. I can't believe that is allowed. Yeah, well, so the prosecution made a motion that the defense had used its strikes in a racially discriminatory way, but the judge rejected it. I know. I can't, I can't believe that, that that's just allowed. So they moved forward. The defense wanted to tell the jury about Ahmaud's legal troubles and the attempted shoplifting, the gun. And the judge was like, no, that has nothing to do with anything. No. It's like all that stuff we always talk about, previous bad acts.

It's not pertinent to this case. This is a victim. Yes. No. No. The defense also wanted to bring up Ahmaud's mental health records. But again, the judge was like, no, that's not relevant here. It's not relevant in any way.

How is that? He was not violent. No! This is just so... Ugh! But the defense would want to use it to their narrative that out of nowhere... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He attacked these unsuspecting men.

These unsuspecting men with guns who were yelling at him. Yeah. Yeah, okay. And they had no choice but to defend themselves. Don't call them heroes. Thank God that was not allowed in. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you'd like to hope that the jury would see through that, but who knows? Who knows? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you'd like to hope that the jury would see through that, but who knows?

Who knows? Yeah. The prosecution also had some stuff that they wanted to present at trial. For example, they wanted Rohde to testify about Travis Michael calling Ahmaud a fucking N-word while dying. But that could only happen if Rohde testified in his own defense. And spoiler alert, that didn't happen. in his own defense. And spoiler alert, that didn't happen. The prosecution also uncovered a bunch of Travis McMichael's racist texts and social media posts, and they wanted to present those to the jury.

But it appears that because of like a weird timing issue where the judge was still making up his mind, the prosecution didn't get a chance to present any of that in court. So at any rate, the trial kicked off and lead prosecutor Linda Donikowski delivered the opening argument. And I just want to state for the record that Linda and I

are in love and she doesn't know it yet, but it all feels very real on my end. She told the jury we are here because of assumptions and driveway decisions.

Yeah. She contended that Gregory, Travis, and Rhodey acted as vigilantes that day. Absolutely. She said that Ahmaud was chased for five minutes before Gregory made that 911 call. She played the 911 call for the jury. In it, the dispatcher said, 911, what is your emergency? There's a black man running down my street. Yes. And over that, Linda said to the jury, I just love this, what does he say his emergency is? This is the emergency, ladies and gentlemen.

And then the recording of Gregory McMichael says, there's a black male running down the street. And Linda says, there's a black male running down the street. And Linda says, there's a black male running down the street. That's the emergency. And in the episode of 48 Hours, okay, right after that point, they cut to a shot of the defense table. And all the lawyers were making faces like, oh, fudge. Linda used Gregory's own words against him. linda used gregory's own words against him he told police that he told ahmad to stop or i'll blow your fucking head off so yeah of course he didn't stop yeah gee let me stop and talk to you you seem

so well balanced and like this could go really well and yet the defense was worried about his mental health record. Yeah. He'd also said that Ahmaud Arbery was, quote, trapped like a rat between the two trucks. Yeah. She didn't let Brody Bryan off the hook either. She said that if he hadn't joined in and trapped Ahmaud Arbery, Ahmaud could have gotten away. She said that Broy tried to hit Ahmaud four different times with his truck. She pointed out that he got so close to Ahmaud with his truck that Ahmaud's palm print and white t-shirt fibers were on Rhodey's truck. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. In their opening arguments, the McMichaels defense team said that Gregory and Travis were just trying to stop Ahmaud and hold him for police because they suspected him of burglary. The defense attorneys. Oh, because that's what they said when they called 911, right? There's somebody committing a burglary. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. They never mentioned that.

Mm-mm. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. They never mentioned that. Mm-mm. The defense attorneys claimed that under Georgia's citizen's arrest law, the McMichaels had every right to do what they were doing. Side note. Oh, wait.

Go ahead. What's up? What's up, Brandi? Except that, okay, that I feel like that could possibly be true if you witnessed somebody commit a crime. Hmm. But what they witnessed was a man jogging. Absolutely. Which is not a crime. You have to witness the crime.

Yeah. So, absolutely. According to the prosecutor and the legal expert on 2020, the citizens arrest law in Georgia allows a private citizen to detain a person who they have observed committing a crime until police arrive. Yeah. And there's even a little more to it than that. If it's a felony, you can stop the person if you have, quote, reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion, which I think is alarmingly vague. But even then, it doesn't really apply here because if Ahmaud could have been charged with anything, it would maybe be trespassing.

Yeah. Which is a misdemeanor. It's not a felony. Yeah. Which is a misdemeanor. It's not a felony. Yeah. By the way, would you like to know the history of Georgia's citizen's arrest statute? I doubt it. No thanks. No thanks.

So it was enacted around the Civil War. Great. Yeah. To control enslaved people who were trying to flee. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I suspected that much. Yeah, it was a great, totally legal way for any white person to have authority over any black person.

Fun. Yeah. Boy. Whew. Anyway, so Gregory and Travis were just simply trying to do a little citizen's arrest. Anyway, so Gregory and Travis were just simply trying to do a little citizen's arrest. Gregory had been like a thousand percent sure that Ahmaud was the guy he'd seen in the surveillance video. Thousand percent sure?

Like a thousand percent sure. I am making that up, but he was pretty sure. Defense attorney Robert Rudin said that Travis, as a former member of the Coast Guard, felt a duty and responsibility that made him put himself at risk. Oh, fuck off! Don't call him a hero, Brandy. He put himself at risk for the neighborhood. What was the neighborhood at risk of? Someone walking through a property and looking at it?

Oh my gosh. This was just self-defense. Would he have done the same if he saw that white couple walking away from the house? What about those kids that they saw on the surveillance video? Would he have done the same then?

No! No, he wouldn't have. Nope. No! But I don't like your tone because poor Tuavis had been terrified. You see, Ahmad was going to take his gun and maybe use it against him. Rhody Bryant's defense attorney, Kevin Gow, took an interesting tactic.

He opted not to present an opening argument until after the prosecution rested. So the prosecution presented their case, and a real shining moment was when my girl Linda questioned one of the officers who'd arrived at the scene. She asked him, did Gregory McMichael indicate to you that he thought Mr. Arbery committed a crime that day? And the officer said, no. And she said, okay, did he ever tell you that, you know, we're going to detain this guy and wait for the police to come and investigate? No.

Did he ever use the word trespass? No. Did he use the word arrest? No. How about the word detain? No. Did he mention citizen's arrest? No.

No, no, no, no. Citizens arrest. No. No, no, no, no. The prosecution called other police officers and GBI agents and the doctor who performed Ahmaud's autopsy. They played the video of Ahmaud's murder for the jury. And at that point, Ahmaud's father, Marcus, left the courtroom. He couldn't watch the video.

Wanda sat in the back and sobbed. It was the first time she'd seen the video in full. She'd been avoiding it for the previous year and a half. Yeah. This was a very high profile case amongst many cases in 2020 about black people being murdered by the police. And so a lot of prominent black people showed their support for Ahmaud Arbery's family. Early on in the case, Reverend Al Sharpton sat in the back of the court with Ahmaud's family. Can you fucking believe that, Brandi? Hold on, you don't seem outraged.

I'm not, and I know exactly what is going on. I read this fucking article and I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Yeah, so I had not read this we don't want any more high profile black people in here no more reverence judge judge can you please tell him that's not allowed anymore what's that no no you can't do that yeah that's not fair so roadie's defense attorney kevin took issue with this so on the fifth day of trial without the jury present he stood up and said okay here comes the quote are we ready are we ready the right reverend al sharpton managed to find his way to the back of this courtroom if we're gonna have to have high profile members of the African-American community in the courtroom to sit with the family during the trial in the presence of the jury, I believe that's intimidating and it's an attempt to pressure.

And Pastor Al Sharpton's there. That's fine. But then that's it. We don't want any more black pastors coming in here, sitting with the victim's family, trying to influence a jury in this case. Are you fucking kidding me? Can you believe that? We don't want any more black pastors coming in here. Black pastors are intimidating the jury by sitting in the back with the family.

Yeah. Sitting in the back with the family. Yeah. Meanwhile, in every other court case, like, as long as people aren't being disruptive, you can. Oh, my God. Okay, Brandy, I must say you did a pretty good job summarizing what he said, but you left out my favorite part. What's that? Is there a part that you know you left out?

Nothing's coming to me off the top of my head. Okay, here we go. Here we go. Then he said, if a bunch of folks came in here dressed like Colonel Sanders with white masks sitting in the back, I mean, that would be. Oh, my God. I wish everyone could see. Yes. Yes.

That's what he said. Okay, where's he going with the white masks thing? Well, and like, I'm sorry, in what world is a black minister going into court as themselves comparable to a white person cosplaying as Colonel Sanders? All they're going to be doing is thinking about chicken the whole rest of the day! We will be distracted. Oh my God! Yeah.

I mean, there were times researching this and I was like, holy shit! So, he says this. Okay, I want you to picture the defense table you know since it's for three defendants there's a lot of people and the woman next to him literally was doing the pinch the bridge of your nose oh no because it was just like it was peak cringe and so the judge started waving his hand, like, stop, stop, stop.

Stop it right now. And he said, OK, I don't, as long as things are not disruptive and it's not a distraction to the jury or anything else going on in the courtroom, so be it. Wanda later said about Kevin, he spoke his mind. Well, actually, he spoke his heart. Which is like the best, he spoke his heart. Mm-hmm. Which is like the best, most delicious quote ever. Yeah. Within a few days, hundreds of black pastors showed up in front of the courtroom in support of Ahmaud Arbery.

Yeah. After they were specifically asked not to show up. We don't want any more black pastors in here. And Reverend Jesse Jackson showed up in court to sit with Ahmaud's family. You can imagine how upsetting this was for Kevin. And he demanded a mistrial. And the prosecution was having none. Yeah, fuck right off.

Linda said, your honor, Mr. Gao is a brilliant lawyer, which, okay, Linda. Let's ease off. Yeah. But I like the point she makes. She said, He stood up in this courtroom knowing full well he was on television. He got the response he wanted. Now he's motioned for a mistrial based on something that he caused. Yeah, he incited this.

Yeah. He specifically said, We don't want any more black pastors to show up. Yeah. So, of course, there's going to be more support for them. You know what? I don't want anyone to send me Christmas cookies. I just get real riled up if anyone sends me Christmas cookies. We don't need any more Christmas cookies here today.

Imagine if I showed up as Colonel Sanders holding Christmas cookies. I'm sorry. I felt like we had to work the Colonel in. After eight days, the prosecution rested. So now it was time for Rhodey's attorney to make his opening statement. Are you ready for Kevin to take the stage? Oh boy.

I don't think you're ready. I don't think you're ready for this bullshit. He stood up in front of the court dressed as Colonel Sanders. No he did not. Just kidding.

I've got a secret recipe. Then he questioned himself to tell the secret recipe. And he wouldn't do it. And he played the fifth. And it's a whole thing. And you know what? The jury was intimidated. And he made his point.

Everyone was very alarmed. They were also very confused. What does this have to do with anything? So he told the jury that his client had never wanted to hurt or kill Ahmaud Arbery. Instead, he'd only wanted to video him. Roddy was an innocent bystander. We'll get a load of this. He owns a gun but he didn't bring it.

He brought his cell phone and his keys with him that day. Yeah, he trapped the man and tried to hit the man with his car though. Four times. Yeah. Yeah, so that... He played a pivotal role in this whole thing. Well, the prosecution

laid that out so that if he had not been trapped by Rowdy Roddy Piper, that could have gotten away. Well, I see what you're saying.

And I agree that, you know, him trying to hit Ahmaud with his car multiple times does look bad for the defense. But get a load of this. Okay. Ready for this? Yeah. Kevin argued that it was actually Ahmaud who had been the aggressor.

On foot? Yeah, so. With these two men in trucks? Yeah, yeah. So Roddy. I mean, there are three men, two in one truck, one in the other. Right. Mm-hmm. Roddy hadn't mean, there are three men, two in one truck, one in the other. Right.

Roddy hadn't tried to run off Ahmaud. Ahmaud had been trying to get into his truck. Fuck! He had fucking not! That's how his palm print got on the truck. That's how his t-shirt fibers got on the truck. He was trying to get in the truck, and it scared Roddy. He was just a scared, innocent bystander. No.

No, because if he was scared, you know what he could have done? Driven away. Yeah. Absolutely. Or called the police. That's the other thing. If you're scared, you could call the police. Yes.

But instead, they'd like chased him on for like five minutes before anyone called the police. And then what was the emergency? Black man running. Mm hmm. Very alarming. Mm hmm. Yeah.

OK. Anytime I run a marathon, I always call the police to report that there are black men running in it. Do we? Oh, yeah, I'm just here running in a marathon. Hey, yeah. There are people here who appear to be running while black. I know that's a crime in Georgia.

I don't know if it's a crime here. Well, this is the great state of Missouri, so I'm sure it is. So, interesting thing about him, he had been trying to get a plea deal, you know, trying to really play up the, oh. Oh, I wasn't, like, involved in the actual murder. Yeah, so here's the offensive thing. Yeah, so here's the offensive thing. Early attempts, like before this went to trial, were to be like, well, Rhodey, like, he's more like, you know, the people who filmed footage of George Floyd being murdered by police. You know, just innocent bystanders. No, no, no, no.

Those people were trying to show what the police were doing to an innocent man. You were not, you were part of the mob. Yeah. You said you joined in to assist. Fuck right off. So the defense called their first witness, Travis McMichael. So it was a bit of a surprise. Yeah.

You think that's not a great way to go? I don't think it is. I loved. So they showed some footage of my girl Linda. And she looked so amused. Like surprised slash amused. Like, oh, are they this stupid? Oh, they are this stupid.

They are. This is going to be great. In his testimony, Travis talked about his training in the Coast Guard and about how he'd been trained to de-escalate situations. And he had a reason to think that Ahmaud was armed that day because 12 days before the shooting, he saw Ahmaud Arbery come out of that construction site at night, reaching into his waistband. So what more do you want, right? Maybe he was just, like, addressed in his junk. Yeah.

I mean, and also— Maybe he's, like, a totally different guy! Also, like, so he was maybe armed 12 days ago, so he's definitely armed right now? Anyway, so Travis's defense also claimed that when he got in the truck with his dad, Travis assumed his dad had already called the police, and they were just going to detain Ahmaud under the citizen's arrest law. You know, that's where his mind was at. Quit shaking your head.

That's where his head was at. I'm your head. That's where his head was at. I'm sure that's exactly where it was. He claimed he asked Ahmaud to please stop. Please. But he didn't. Stop while I'm aiming my gun at you. Then he saw Ahmaud attacking Rhodey's truck. And he thought, why is he attacking a truck?

Then they lost sight of Ahmad so he dialed 911 and handed the phone to his dad. Uh-huh, I'm so fucking sure. Then Ahmad Arbery reappeared. Running in his direction, Travis yelled for him to stop.

Travis said he was like a running back, like he's ready to bolt or move any way he wanted. But he was focused on me. Dude, you're the one with the gun and the truck. Yeah. And you've got backup, your Santa Claus looking dad who also has a gun. And you've got freaking Rhodey slash Roddy, whatever his name is.

But this guy who you're up against is fast. Yeah. And not in a vehicle, might I add. He is on foot. Brandy, he was like a running back, ready to bolt or move any way he wanted. Evidently, he wasn't like a checker

piece, like he could go forward, backwards, side to side. Yeah, the possibilities were endless. He zig-da-zagged. So he raised his shotgun, but only after Ahmad came after him. Travis explained to the jury,

this was when I needed to deter him to stay, to do not come at me. Do not come at me? do not come at me do not come at me do not come at me is your phone blowing up right now i mean it's the discord those damn those damn discord people damn people financially supporting us answering the questions that i've asked they're sending us questions that i asked for the bastards travis claimed that ahmad was on him in a flash and that in that moment

he thought of his son oh fuck off and he shot ahmad and at this point in his testimony, Travis raised a crumpled tissue to his eyes. But for the record, I did not see one goddamn tear so he can shove a value-sized box of Kleenex up his ass. Not up his b-hole? Well, isn't that implied? I mean, if you're going up the ass... I just think that usually you're more colorful with your terms when referring to the butthole. Balloon nut. Is that something you're calling me right now or a suggestion? I'm sorry I've let you down, Brandy.

I'll try to be more creative. I would appreciate that, Balloon Nut. So, he can shove a value-sized box of Kleenex up his Slipknot. I don't think that's... Too much? Did I overdo it? Okay. Will the band Slipknot sue us at the same time that Walmart sues us? That remains to be seen.

They did sue Burger King, and you can hear about that on episode... You know what episode it is. Come on. I have a guess, but I have no idea. I think it's 22. Oh, all right. I think you're right. I have no idea. Oh, well right. I think you're right. I have no idea. Oh, well, who cares? On cross-examination, Linda was like,

You know, this confrontation would never have happened if you hadn't followed him. Yeah. She walked him through an embarrassing line of questions like, Did he threaten you? Nope. Did he pull out any guns? Nope. Did he pull out a knife? Nope. He never reached for anything, did he? Nope. He just ran. Yes, he was just running. You could have just let him run, correct? I could have, but I also wanted to make sure that everything was okay down the road and see what was happening.

What the fuck, dude? She said, you know that no one has to talk to anyone they don't want to talk to, right? He didn't owe you anything. No. No, you weirdo. Come up with your Confederate flag truck. Stop, stop. I want to talk to you.

Yeah. And Travis said, that's correct. After Travis was done pooping himself on the stand, the defense called a bunch of white neighbors who said that Satilla Shore had been the victim of a crime wave. So they'd all been super on edge. And they were like, yeah, the crime is terrible. An innocent man was murdered in our neighborhood. Just kidding.

They didn't say that. No, they were worried about burglaries and stuff. Yeah. One of the ladies, no shit, said that Larry English would call up and say, the colored man is back. Oh my God. Yep.

So, it was all very scary. Not when a man was murdered in their neighborhood, but you know, the other scary stuff. Yeah, like when a black man was running down the street.

Uh-huh. Out other scary stuff. Yeah, like when a black man was running down the street. Uh-huh. Out for a jog. Yeah. In broad daylight. But, hey, he was like a running brack. He could go any way he wanted. Did I say running brack? Yeah.

You got what you meant. Did you know that he could go in any direction? Terrifying, I tell you. Terrifying. Most people can't do that. I can only go forward. In closing arguments, Linda said that the three men attacked Ahmaud Arbery because he was a black man running down the street. Yes.

She said they had no right to make a citizen's arrest because in order to make an arrest of an offender, the offense has to have been committed in the private citizen's presence. Do we have that here? No! Three on one. Two pickup trucks. Two guns. Ahmaud Arbery had nothing.

He didn't even have his ID on him. He didn't even have his cell phone to call for help. Travis's attorney said his client believed he had no choice but to defend himself. Against the unarmed man. Okay. Then, ooh, are you ready for this? Laura Hogue, Gregory's attorney, took an exceptionally shitty approach, which is really saying something in a case that is already exceptionally shitty.

Do you know what I'm about to say? I don't think so. This is the part that made me go, okay, I have to fucking cover this. In her closing argument, she said, Turning Ahmaud Arbery into a victim after the choices he made does not reflect the reality of what brought Ahmaud Arbery to Satilla Shores in his khaki shorts with no socks to cover his long, dirty toenails. What? This is a wild clip to watch because you can hear people gasp. Yeah.

When she says it. Wanda had to leave the courtroom. She later said, I just had no idea they would go that low. That is unbelievable. What does that have to do with anything? And how do you know what his toenails look like? I mean, that's just. Oh, my gosh.

And excuse me, the people who turned Ahmaud into a victim are the defendants. Yeah. When they murdered him. Yeah. Yeah. The reality of the choices. Holy shit. Since we're talking about appearance,

you should know that Laura delivered that horrible statement while rocking frizzy, brassy hair and wearing a skirt suit that was black with purple flowers on it. And frankly, she looked like a magician who plays weeknights in Branson, Missouri. And like to formally invite her to rotten hell. I mean, it's just disgusting. That's disgusting. Yeah. Everyone deserves a defense. How?

That is just the lowest of the low. Yeah. That's totally unnecessary. That is sickening. Yeah. I mean, that should be fucking illegal. Yeah. I can't believe that.

I know. She should lose her license to practice law for that. Yeah. Holy shit. She shouldn't even be allowed to pull a rabbit out of a hat. I know. Kevin Goh said that Brody's presence was irrelevant to this whole thing, made no difference whether he'd been there or not. Wrong.

The closing arguments lasted a day and a half, and the jury deliberated for 11 hours. And all three men were found guilty. Travis was the only one found guilty of malice murder, but they were all found guilty of felony murder, aggravated assault, false imprisonment, and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. false imprisonment and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment. They're all facing life in prison, but a judge still has to decide whether they'll get life with or without the possibility of parole. And so this seems like one of those rare stories where justice is actually happening. Yeah. And it wouldn't have happened without Wanda being so adamant and getting answers for her son's murder.

Also, credit where credit's due. It also wouldn't have happened if Gregory and Travis and Rhodey hadn't been such colossal dumbasses and shared the video of them lynching Ahmaud Arbery. After the men were found guilty, Wanda told a crowd of supporters, it's been a long fight. It's been a hard fight. But God is good. And it's not over. In February of 2022, the three men are going to go to trial again for federal hate crime charges. Ha! Yeah! Love it. Also, former DA Jackie Johnson has been charged with violating her oath of office for her handling of Ahmaud Arbery's murder.

The indictment said that she showed favor and affection to Gregory McMichael during the investigation. I'm starting to wonder if she isn't Mrs. Claus. And she failed to treat Ahmaud Arbery and his family fairly and with dignity. to treat Ahmaud Arbery and his family fairly and with dignity. About a year and a half after Ahmaud was murdered, Georgia repealed its citizen's arrest statute. Wanda Cooper-Jones was at the Georgia Capitol to witness the governor sign the law repealing the statute, and she said, I think the state of Georgia is moving in the right direction by passing this particular bill. Georgia is moving in the right direction by passing this particular bill. Unfortunately, I had to lose my son to get significant change.

But again, I'm still thankful. And that is a story about running while black. I read a thing on Instagram after the verdict came down. And I, of course, will not remember the exact quote, but the gist of it was it's easy to look at this verdict and be like, this is a win. And it is. But that doesn't change the fact that it took nearly three months for charges to be brought against these men. And those are the things that still need serious work in our justice system. And again,

this only happened because they had video of it. And because they were so stupid that they shared the video. That was how confident they were in white supremacy. That they felt they could share a video of them killing someone. Murdering someone.

And everyone would be like, oh, I get it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, this is not, it's not a victory if you have to fight this hard for it. Yeah. When a case is so clear cut. Yeah. When a case is so clear cut. Yeah.

And when a defense attorney can get up and talk about someone's dirty toenails. Yeah. Yeah. That is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard said in court like that is. I just cannot understand what type of person makes that argument. A terrible person. Yeah. A piece of shit person. Yeah.

And. It's clearly something she rehearsed. Well, that's what I was about to say. Did she not like run through that with someone else and someone else was like. I mean, that's that's the horrifying and amazing thing is like so many people showed their asses. Yeah. That George Barnhill guy. Yeah.

The letters he wrote were disgusting. Talking about, oh, rabble rousers are trying to get me off this case. You're talking about the victim's mom. Yeah. Whose son was shot in the street after he went out for a jog. Yeah. Ugh. Mm.

That case is horrible sure as i hate it that poor family oh my i hate it when someone is killed that young i mean obviously for so many reasons this story is terrible but that young like he didn, obviously, for so many reasons, this story is terrible, but that young, like, he didn't even have time to have a family, which he wanted. He talked about buying up a big plot of land one day with his best friend, and, like, they'd raise their families near each other. I mean, just, he didn't get to do all the stuff

he wanted to do. Yeah. To bring us back down. Oh, I were you no i never got up in the clouds yeah i never got up all right you weirdo yeah why don't you tell us a terrible story about a what is it what did i say mysterious pool mysterious pool no no well murder did i say murder pool death pool yeah because it's dead. Because it's I mean, I'm guessing. Okay. I watched a new show

for this. A show I'd never seen before. An oxygen show called In Ice Cold Blood. Oh my God. Which was hosted, of course,

by Ice-T. What? Yep. What? Yep. What? Yeah. Ice-T's doing shows for Oxygen now. Thank you. How's his wife doing? Coco?

What's her name? I don't know. She wasn't on there. That's a shame. How is this a real show? I would believe anything is a real show on Oxygen. Oxygen is just a weird network to me. I don't get it. Also watched an episode of Dateline.

Did you? Mm-hmm. Bet you loved it. Yeah, it was my boy Keith Morrison. So, of course I did. Uh- you? Mm-hmm. Bet you loved it. Yeah, it was my boy Keith Morrison. So, of course I did. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. It was called At the Bottom of the Pool.

Oh, that was pretty good, Keith. Thank you. All right. Also, a bunch of this comes from an article for the Pensacola News Journal. That's in Florida. That is. That is. That's right.

By Jennifer Portman. And you know my old standby. What's that? Chillingcrimes.com You're obsessed. Alright. Oh wow. It's especially working because you know chilling, iced tea and what was it? Ice cold crimes

or whatever. And ice cold blood. That's even worse than what I just made up. Jesus Christ. Okay. Saturday, February 22nd, 2014 was just a regular day of work for Gerald Gardner. Was he a gardener? He was like a handyman. Really?

He was gardening sometimes, yes. Wow. Mm-hmm. Just before 11 o'clock that morning, Gerald arrived at the home of Adam and Samira Frosh. I'm going to pause right here, and I'm just going to lay this all out, okay? Okay. On the shows Are you okay? Yes. On the shows

that I watched they pronounced her name Samara. Every like all of the investigators, the prosecutors, the hosts of the show, Keith Morrison and Ice-T alike call her Samara.

It's spelled S-A-M-I-R-A. On both of these shows, though, two of her personal friends were interviewed. And when they referred to her, they called her Samira. So don't you think they know how to pronounce their friend's name? Are you telling me that Ice-T and Keith Morrison are both wrong? I don't fucking buy it. I mean. Yeah.

Okay, so I read articles about this case first. And in my head, I said Samira. Yeah. And then I watched the first show my head, I said Samira. Yeah. And then I watched the first show and they were like, Samira. And I was like,

really? Samira? And then her friends called her Samira. It's not that I'm right. No, I know, I know. That's not the point I'm making.

Your friends know how to pronounce your name. Right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Okay, so I'm going to call her Samira. And if by the odd chance that that is wrong, I apologize. Brandoy, are you

okay? If anything ever happens to you, I'm going to fuck with people so bad. Right? I'll pronounce your name differently every single time. No! Okay, so anyway, Gerald arrives at the home of Pronounce your name differently every single time. Okay. So anyway, Gerald arrives at the home of Adam and Samira Frosh, whom he regularly did handyman work for.

The Froshes lived in this very fancy gated community of Golden Eagle. Oh, that's what it's called? Yeah, in Tallahassee, Florida. Oh, that's what it's called? Yeah, in Tallahassee, Florida. And when Gerald arrived at their home, located at 8734 Inverness Drive. Inverness? Yeah. Okay, so Google that and then go to the Redfin result because it has pictures of the house. I don't think I...

Oh, Inverness. Okay. All right. Redfin. Hang on. pictures of the house. I don't think I Oh, Inverness. Okay. Alright. Red Fin. Hang on. Oh, Red Fin's really buried here. Hang on. It's the only one that has pictures though. So you gotta go to it. Just calm down.

87-34? No, 83-74. I'm sorry. I said it. Did I say it backwards? Who knows? I've never heard anything incorrectly in my entire life. So we cannot. Ooh, this is pretty. Yeah.

Look at that. All different kinds of trees. There are all kinds of trees. Evergreen spines. You are great. Love that. Ooh, some real gaudy drapery. Uh-huh.

So here's the interesting thing about this house. Okay. Is that Adam and Samira love Jesus H. They were Christians. okay everyone to recap what just happened brandy's phone has been blowing up. She got frustrated and said Jesus H at her phone.

And I, the comedy genius, I hope that translates. Seriously, there's a weird mix of stuff going on in this house. So they like a very lavish lifestyle. Adam, very successful podiatrist. Okay. Samira, supermodel from Madagascar. Oh, shit.

Yes. Oh, wow. And so you put them together and you get this weird decorating style. Okay. It's, so if I may describe. Yeah. Super, like, clearly expensive drapery. You know, multiple colors. It's got the swoopy swoops along the top.

I think we all know what I'm saying. Yeah. But then over the mantle of the fireplace is one of those big, like, kind of country rustic looking stars. A lot of gold. I saw a picture of the house with furnishings still in it. Lots of gold. Lots of ornate, like, molding on the furniture. Fancy cats.

Lots of animal print. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bit of a unique style. Not really. We all know what it is. We've all seen it.

Okay. Okay. So, when Gerald arrived at the Frosh's house, he knew almost immediately that something was off. Was it the light switch? I'm so sorry. That was so fucking rude. My uncle was rude. My uncle was rude.

I think it increased my chances of being rude, don't you? I do. I do. Because I saw it firsthand. So when Gerald kind of walked around the back of the Frosh's house, and he was also like accompanied by his 14-year-old son that day, who I also believe was named Gerald. He saw that the froshes like little white yap yap dog Bella was out running around the screened in pool enclosure. This was super out of the norm. She was usually put away in like this bathroom that kind of served as a walkthrough from the house to the pool.

So as he walks around, he sees that that bathroom door is open, which again, he thought was odd. And so he went into this screened in pool enclosure area. And as he did, he saw that there was a pair of like black rhinestone sandals in the pool. One was kind of caught under a hose that was running out of the pool. So it was like the sandal was on the first step into the pool and it was like caught under the hose. Okay. And then the other was in the shallow end, but like at the bottom. But this caught his eye pretty quickly and so he moved closer to the pool

and that's when he saw Samira Frosh in the pool. She was on her back. She was completely underwater. She was at the bottom of the deep end. She was face up. Her hands were out

and she was mostly naked. She had a leopard print robe on, but it was just like open and flowing around her. It was clear to Gerald that Samira was dead. He called 911 and he asked them to send help. He explained to the dispatcher what he'd found. And the dispatcher asked him if he'd made an attempt to pull Samira from the pool or if it was possible for him to do so now. And Gerald declined. He said, he was basically like, no, thank you. It's very clear to me that she's been in the water for some time.

It's very clear to me that she's been in the water for some time. It's very clear to me that she's dead. And I would really like the police to come here and take pictures before I disturb this scene in any way. And I certainly would not like to get my DNA anywhere near her. Oh, wow. So a bunch of stuff that I read made a big deal about how this is weird and a super odd response. But I am here to tell you that Gerald knew what was up. He was a very handsome 40-year-old black man. Oh, yeah. With the voice of a 67-year-old man.

So you were shocked. I was shocked when I saw him. Because I just heard the recording of the one call first. And I was like, oh, it's like a 67 year old black man that showed up there. No, very handsome 40 year old man. Yeah. Yeah. This is not odd at all that he's like, I can see she's dead.

I'm not getting my DNA on this. I'm giving the police zero opportunities to turn me into a suspect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good for you, hottie with an old man voice. So that call was placed at 11.02 a.m. And the police arrived there within minutes.

They pulled her from the water. And then they started talking to Gerald. They immediately started life-saving procedures. But they did CPR for like 45 minutes. They pulled her from the water. And then they started talking to Gerald. They immediately started life-saving procedures, but they did CPR for like 45 minutes. It was really hard to know how long Samira had been in the water because the water was ice cold, as the title of the show would tell you. I don't know if it's in reference to the water being cold or the crime happening in the winter or if it's a reference to iced tea. I'm not really sure. Don't you think they were just like, let's get all of our water deaths and give them to iced tea? Probably.

I think so. Yeah. Anyway, so Gerald's talking to the police while they're trying to save. Originally, they wanted to do all their iced tea deaths for iced tea. But it turns out not enough for a full show. And they want this to go into a second season. I think there's three seasons of it. So they made the right call.

Sorry for saying something so stupid. saying something so stupid. One of the first things that Gerald told police when they arrived on the scene was he killed her. He finally did it. Oh. Who was he referring to?

The husband. Obviously. And so he explained that he knew the couple. He'd worked for them for a long time. And it turns out the police were familiar with the couple.

There had been a lot of calls to the house in recent months. But now they had to establish if this was an accidental death. Had Samira possibly tripped over that hose, fallen into the pool, hit her head, and drowned? Or had someone placed her there in the pool? And so they did an autopsy. And the autopsy revealed that Samira had died as a result of drowning, but that wasn't the only cause of death. She also died of blunt force trauma. It was a combination of the two.

And she had blunt force injuries to both sides of her head. So this wasn't an accidental fall into the pool. Her death was ruled a homicide. She had a skull fracture. And so, you know, obviously, I don't think that this is real, but all the shows are like, we immediately looked into Gerald. I don't think they did. I hope not.

I mean, okay. They all said that they ruled him out very quickly, but I think, like, maybe that means, like, oh, Gerald's the one who found him. So they're like, did you kill him? Cover your ass. Okay. And he was like, no, that's why I didn't want to get my DNA on her, because I know, like, how shady police are to, you know, black men. And so, yeah, no, thank you. So they ruled him out, and they were like, well, we better track down the husband. And so they went to work tracking down Samir's husband.

So did Gerald's son go by Gerald? Surely not. You can't be 14 and go by Gerald. You got to be Jerry, right? Okay. And to be fair, I'm not even positive that this son was named Gerald. I just know, listen, here's what I know. Okay. Here's what I know that Gerald's 14 year this son was named Gerald. What? Now, listen. Here's what I know. Okay. Here's what I know. That Gerald's 14-year-old son was with him. And that all the articles refer to Gerald Gardner as Gerald Gardner Sr. So, I made.

Oh, you made a leap. I did make a leap. He could have more than one son. He absolutely could. You son of a bitch. Hmm. Glad I asked that follow-up question. Try to get to the truth of a bitch. Glad I asked that follow-up question. Try to get to the truth of this matter. Let's do another investigation into Gerald and his son and find out his son's name.

I think that'd be an excellent use of our time. So, okay, they cross Gerald off the list. They're like, this guy really was just here doing maintenance work. He really did just discover the body. It seems he's not a suspect. On to the next, which is Samir's husband, Adam. And they tracked him down and he was at one of the family's other homes. Again, this family, very wealthy. Dang.

They owned a home in Panama City Beach. And so they track Adam down to Panama City Beach. Oh, man. This guy had so many. He had like 81 cars, they said. What? 81. And like not 81 Honda Civics.

No. Brandi, we know. That would be hilarious. It'd be collected cars, but only shitty cars. Right. No, he had Range Rovers and BMWs and Mercedes and all kinds of shit. What did his parents do for a living? They were cars.

His parents were cars. And so he wanted to be a car, but he couldn't, so he just bought cars. Oh, classic tale. He should have just done some therapy. No, he was this very successful podiatrist. I have to admit to something, Brandy. What? I was hoping you would just tell me that one of his parents was a doctor so that I could be right about what I said earlier.

Anyway, go on. I don't know anything about his parents. They were both doctors. They're both doctors. Great. Car doctors. Some people call them mechanics, but, you know, not here. I don't know anything about his parents. They were both doctors. They're both doctors. Great. Car doctors. Some people call them mechanics, but, you know, not here.

So this was not the story of like, oh, they were the perfect couple. No one saw this coming. No, this couple had started off rough. Adam was married to his second wife still when he met Samira. to his second wife still when he met Samira. He met Samira during fashion week in Paris where she was walking the runway as a supermodel. That's how Norman I met.

Samira has a very exotic look, great bone structure. May I Google? Yeah, look her up. Samira Frosh, F-R-A-S-C-H. Hmm. Okay, Samira Frosh. Oh, wow, she is very beautiful.

Very beautiful, yes. Originally from Madagascar, moved to Paris to become a model, met Adam in Paris when she was, you know, walking during Fashion Week in the summer of 2006. Jeez, these model types sure are skinny, aren't they? Anyway. So at the time, Adam was going through a divorce with his first wife. I'm sorry, his second wife. Excuse me. This man has so many divorces.

Okay. So going through the divorce with his second wife, went to Paris, met Samira. That divorce was a mess. There were kids involved, obviously, you know, lots of money, lots of goods to be divided up. Anyway, that one took a really long time. During that divorce, Samira and Adam did like a long distance relationship from Tallahassee to Paris. In 2009, his divorce from his second wife was finalized. And so the two had a quickie wedding in Las Vegas. You're not allowed to say quickie wedding.

They did a real quick ceremony to get married in Vegas, followed by a quickie in their hotel room. Stop it. Okay, I don't know if that second part is true, but I imagine. You're just making shit up all over the place. Gerald's son is named Gerald Jr. I mean, that is true. I just don't know if it's the son that accompanied him to the Frosh house that day. A lot of questions.

Okay. So, finally, they're married now. They had the quick wedding in Vegas. Had a more formal wedding in Madagascar later that same year. And then finally, in 2010, Samira moved to Florida to live with Adam

in the golden what did I say? Golden Eagle house. Okay. Things were going great. until Samira found out that in that time that they had been long distance, oops, Adam had fathered a child with another woman. Oh, my God. Yeah. Good Lord.

Yes. So at that time, she was like, I'm leaving you. We're going to get divorced. And Adam's like, no, please stay. Let me buy you a car. Let's have a baby together. Let's, here's money. Uh-huh.

Just threw it in her face. And she was like, fine, I'll stay. And they had a couple kids. And the kids became Samira's life. She had two daughters. And she really thought that they, like like should be on a reality show. Like that was obviously it's 2010, you know. All the rage.

So she hired a film crew to follow them around and was like constantly filming their life and their kids. Wow. She designed like a clothing line in her daughter's name and planned to like launch a whole company. This is peak 2010. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For her daughter's first birthday party, she threw like the most lavish party, more expensive than most people's weddings is how the articles put it. I believe it.

I do too. But throughout that time, things were very tumultuous in their relationship. You know, Adam had a wandering eye. Sounds like a wandering dick. He had a very wandering dick, yes. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And this would lead to a lot of fights.

In August of 2013, there had been a big blowup, and Adam had actually called the police and said that Samira had attacked him. They were separated. Initially, there were charges filed, but Adam asked for them to be dropped later and the two reconciled briefly. But a month after that, so in September of 2013, Samira filed for divorce. She was like, I'm done putting up with your cheating ways. Like, she had found out that he had, like, three other girlfriends. Oh, Lord. This dude just had houses all over the place. He was just, like, banging ladies at different houses constantly.

He also really liked the strip club. Well, of course. Yeah. Because he had a lot of money. So, like, he was super popular at a strip, of course. Yeah. Because he had a lot of money. So like he was super popular at a strip club. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that's like the best of both worlds. You get this guy's money and you don't have to put up with his bullshit. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So in December of 2013,

so two months before Samira is found in the swimming pool, there had been a big court ruling, and Samira was granted temporary custody of their two daughters, and she was given the Golden Eagle home to stay in. This is a big loss for Adam in these divorce proceedings. Sounds like he could afford to lose a lot. Yeah.

Anyway, who cares? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, the dude had plenty of money. But I imagine if you're like, some of these, he had like girlfriends put up in hotels. He had a girlfriend put up in, like, on Valentine's Day, February 2014. Oh, this sounds romantic. Keep going.

Samira got a call from a hotel asking to authorize charges on their credit card. No. For some girl that Adam had put up in a hotel. No. That's one week before she wound up in the pool dead. Oh. Yeah. So police learn all of this very quickly.

They track. So they're like, okay, where's the fucking husband then? They track him down to Panama City Beach. They get there. And he's like, has the girl loaded into his car? And he's getting ready to leave. And they were like, look like we caught you just in the nick of time. And he's like, no, no, no, no.

And they're like, where are you headed? And he's like, I'm we caught you just in the nick of time. And he's like, no, no, no. And they're like, he was like, they're like, where are you headed? And he's like, I'm headed. I'm headed back to Tallahassee. My friend just called me and said that Samira was found dead. And he puts on this big show of being very upset. But he has like this scratch on his eye. And so they they take him into custody at that time and they get him into the station, and they take an initial statement from him. And he tells them, yes, things had been very rocky in their relationship from the beginning.

He had a wandering dick. He couldn't keep it in his pants, whatever. And that Samira had filed for divorce, and things weren't going his way in the divorce proceedings. But that was all done because they had reconciled. They were getting back together. They had spent that night before together at the Golden Eagle house. When he was murdering her. Right.

Here's the thing. The gate at the Golden Eagle community has a surveillance camera. So he couldn't lie. He can't lie and say he wasn't there. So this is the only story he can tell, right, to explain why he was there. He says he was there that night. They had a great night. It had ended great.

He keeps changing his story. So at first, they had a really good day. They took the girls out. They went and got lunch. They dropped Samira's car off to get the oil changed. Went and picked it up. Got home real late because they'd run a bunch of errands. Put the kids to bed.

It was about 11 o'clock, and Samira was upset because she couldn't find one of her favorite purses. I assume a very fancy designer purse. I don't know this for sure. This is another leap I'm making. Latote. And so she accuses him of giving her purse to one of his bitches. Oh, yeah. And it leads to this big fight.

According to Adam, they did have a big fight. They actually ended up driving to a couple of other houses and looking for the purse. They never found it. They came back to the house. Everything was fine. They had sex in the living room. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. He went to bed. This is the most unrelatable story that's ever been told. I can't find my purse. Let's drive to our other houses. Let's drive to our other houses. And so he's like, yeah, no, everything was fine. We had sex.

We went to sleep. I did wake up at 4 o'clock in the morning and Samira was yelling at me. She was pissed. She'd looked through my phone. She found another girlfriend that I hadn't told her about. She called her. Things aren't good. But, you know, I talked her down.

Everything was fine. We went back to sleep. I'm so sure. I woke up at 8 a.m. you know, I talked her down. Everything was fine. We went back to sleep. I'm so sure. I woke up at 8 a.m. And she said that she was still tired and asked if she could have a day to herself. And I was like, no problem, sweetie. Yeah. I'll take the girls.

You enjoy a me day. And we left the house at 8 a.m. Mm-hmm. And that's that. She was, I kissed her on the cheek. Said, I love you. Enjoy your day. And she was totally fine when I left.

It's a totally normal story. Yeah. Totally normal story. Yeah, no, dude, you obviously did this. You for sure murdered your wife! Yeah. And so they're like, okay. And so then Adam asked the police if it was possible

that maybe, maybe Samira had tripped over that hose that was always hanging out of the pool. Isn't that possible? I think this is really weird. And I don't know if he saw crime scene photos before asking this. But to me, this seems like even more proof that he did this and he planted those sandals there to make it look like that's what happened.

Yeah. Because what a weird fucking question to ask, right? That's a really weird question to ask. Yeah. Because what a weird fucking question to ask, right? That's a really weird question to ask. Yeah. Unless you're like, these officers don't seem to be getting what I was leading them to. Right. Guess I'd better spell it out for them. Yeah, he's like, so that hose that's always sticking out of the pool, you know, is it possible that maybe she tripped over that and hit her head and drowned?

She's always chasing the dog around the pool, So maybe she was chasing the dog around the pool and she got her sandal caught under that hose and tripped and fell in the pool and hit her head and drowned. You don't like it? Well, no, because you said she had injuries on both sides of her head, right? Yeah, she had injuries on both sides of her head, right? Yeah, she has injuries to both sides of her head.

She has a skull fracture on one side, and then she has some kind of flat blunt force trauma on the other. Yeah, I just don't buy it. What the medical examiner later theorizes when—so they classified her death a homicide, and they theorized that she was punched or hit in the side of the head with something. And then that caused her to fall onto the concrete pool surface. Yeah. The surround for the pool. And that caused the trauma to the other side of her head. Yeah.

And then at that point she was still alive. Mm-hmm. She was then, but she wasn't conscious. Right. She was then placed into the pool where she then drowned. Yeah. Yeah. God, that's horrible.

Mm-hmm. But it makes way more sense than a slip and fall. Yeah. In light of all the context. So at this point, police are like, okay, we don't have enough to keep this guy. And so he gives a statement and he leaves and they start looking into his phone records. And he talked to a bunch of people that day. He talked to a couple girlfriends.

He talked to the woman that he had the child with. And so they actually tracked down that woman. Her name was Martha Moore. And they were like, hey, what did you talk to Adam about on the morning of February 22nd? And she was like, oh, he said that he was taking the girls to South Beach for the day and or for the weekend or something. For the day and or for the weekend or something and wanted to know if, you know, I wanted him to take our daughter or if we were going to meet up or something. But I already had plans. And she's like, he was in a really good mood, like the best mood I've ever seen him in. She said so much so that I called my mom after we got off the phone and said, he must be having

a really good day. Yeah. One thing that Adam had included in his story about the previous night's activities was that Samira had consumed two bottles of champagne over the course of the night while they were arguing. Oh, wow. And that she got very violent when she drank. That that had led to an escalation in their argument, but everything had been fine. But this didn't make sense to the investigators because no alcohol was found.

Oh, shit. In Samira's system. None at all. But the two bottles. Who's putting away bottles of champagne while they're arguing, too? Yeah, that is a weird choice. Yeah. Also, it didn't happen, so that's that.

Investigators were pretty sure that adam had murdered his wife and then had staged this scene to hopefully make it look like she had fallen in the pool the thing that they found the most disturbing about this is that adam was a doctor he would have known that she was not dead when he threw her in the pool and that he was for sure ending her life by doing that. Yeah. But they still didn't have enough to arrest him on charges of murder. And so they actually arrested him on interfering with the custody of his children. Because he had taken them to Panama City Beach.

He was not supposed to have custody of them. Oh. And so they were able to get him on a technicality. They arrested him on that. But he bonded out, like, only immediately. Of course he did. But one of his bond conditions was that he was not allowed to have weapons. Okay.

This is important. Okay. Okay. So he bonds out. Okay. He writes this big letter because this is huge news. He's a big doctor. He's well known in the area.

The family's well known. He writes an open letter to the people of Tallahassee. He gets it printed in the newspaper about how he's being targeted by the police. And like he's just trying to mourn the death of his wife. And what an annoyance this all is. Hmm. And in it he said, I did not murder the mother of my two babies. Wow, that is weird.

I think it's really weird. I think this guy's just like the most arrogant guy on the planet. Yeah, possibly. most arrogant guy on the planet. Yeah, possibly. What not even the prosecutors and investigators knew at this time was that they had, so they knew they had this murder investigation going on and that he was their, you know, number one suspect. What they didn't know is that the FBI had their own investigation of Dr. Adam Frosch

going on. investigation of Dr. Adam Frosch going on. Because Dr. Adam Frosch was suspected of serious Medicare fraud. Oh, my God. Dr. Frosch's practice was so successful that in order to explain the number of charges that his practice was billing to Medicare, he would have had to been seeing two patients at a time, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Good for him. You know, way to get up early, hustle. Sounds like he was just doing some positive thinking.

I bet he had a daily workout. I bet he had some supplements. Yeah. Who knows? Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So, yeah. So, the FBI.

Yeah, what a bunch of shit. Yeah. So, the FBI is doing a major investigation into his practice because they suspect he's engaging in Medicare fraud. Okay. That makes way more sense. Yeah, because it's like, how is this guy affording all of this stuff? engaging in Medicare fraud. Okay, that makes way more sense. Yeah, because it's like, how is this guy affording all of this stuff? Yeah, because that's why I, another reason I was wondering about his parents' profession, because it's like, okay, obviously this guy came from a ton of money, didn't even have

to be a doctor, but clearly he did have to be a doctor, and then he had to doctor the doctor. Oh boy, really got him there. So in the course of that investigation by the FBI, they found weapons in his office. In his office? Handguns in his office. Well, any podiatrist needs some guns. And so they were able to revoke his bond and he went to jail.

Jeez. Okay. And so now they're like, okay, good. At least he's in custody. At least he's not out and like writing letters to the people of Tallahassee and putting them in the newspaper. His defense attorney had to be dying at that point. Because you know you would not want that. His defense attorney had to be dying at that point.

I'm sure. Because you know you would not want that. No. So with Adam in custody, they tried to build a case against him for first-degree murder. But in Florida, a charge of first-degree murder must be brought down by a grand jury. You cannot just charge someone with first-degree murder. And so they put a case together that was very circumstantial. It was all that stuff I told you. The dates, you know, kind of line up. You know, things had kind of not been going his way in the divorce proceedings.

And Samira had just confronted him about another girlfriend that he was spending all this money on. It just was very circumstantial, but it made sense when it all laid out. And so they presented this case to a grand jury and Adam made a really weird decision. And he testified in front of that grand jury. Of course he did. So my theory here is that this guy is such an arrogant asshole that he truly believed that he could charm the jury into not

charging him. But it didn't work. What? And ultimately Adam Frosch was charged with first degree murder. So at his trial, which took almost three years for him to go to trial. Oh, wow. Yeah,

there were all these motions. And he was also at one point deemed incompetent to stand trial because he was dealing with undiagnosed bipolar disorder. And wandering dick. And wandering dick. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So often that goes undiagnosed. Like wandering uterus. I don't think that's what people say. Do you know about wandering uterus? No. What is that?

Okay. I can't remember who originally thought this was a thing, but there was like, did Socrates? No. I'm making shit up. But there was this thought that the uterus could detach and like wander around the woman's body. I was not familiar with wandering uterus. Well, now you know. Keep track of that thing, baby.

You never know what's going to happen. I feel like it's it's pretty detached pretty strongly in there but it's detached attached oh okay i was like oh no it's happening it's already happened just like socrates said it would it can't be socrates hang on wandering uterus maybe it was plato or aristotle i'm all out of philosophers Maybe it was Plato or Aristotle. I'm all out of philosophers. Okay, perhaps this is not very important.

Although, tell that to the ladies who are listening with their wandering uteruses. That's right. Okay, so finally, he's deemed competent. He gets some medication. He's deemed competent to stand trial, and his trial begins. And at his trial, the prosecution laid out for the jury all about, you know, his lavish lifestyle, the 81 cars, his wealth, his love of exotic dancers, and all of them that he was supporting. Three of them. And I, okay. So there were three that he was having serious relationships with while he was married to Samira.

I have no idea how many fringe girls there were. Probably a lot more. But these were three that he was like putting up in houses and buying cars for. Yeah. And they all looked so much like Samira. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And they all looked so much like Samira. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And then the prosecution laid out for them the possible motive.

They'd been going through this divorce and custody battle. And they talked about the timing of it all and how everything was kind of coming to a head. Samira had just been granted sole temporary custody. She'd been granted permission to stay at the Golden Eagle House. This was a major blow to Adam. And that Adam was going to stand to lose a lot of money if this

divorce went through. He'd have to pay a lot of child support. He'd have to pay a lot of maintenance. And then, oh, at the same time, there was this big investigation going into his practice. So, yikes! I really gotta do something here. The prosecution also told the jury about all the opportunity that Adam had. He'd been there that night, you know.

They'd reconciled, according to Adam. Yeah, I'm so sure. Mm-hmm. Even Adam admitted there'd been an argument that night. Then they put the medical examiner on the stand. The medical examiner talked about the injuries that Samira had sustained. There was the two blunt force injuries to her head. So the one on one side, the skull fracture on the other.

And the medical examiner talked about how it wouldn't be possible for those injuries to be caused by a trip into the pool. those injuries to be caused by a trip into the pool. Even if she'd hit her head on the concrete edge of the pool or the wall, it wouldn't make sense for those injuries. The only explanation is that she would have had to have been hit and then fallen to cause the injuries to both sides of her head, and then she was intentionally placed in the pool. And, of course, the prosecution said it was Adam who had done this. Adam had caused Samira's injuries.

His DNA was found under Samira's fingernails, which... That can happen. It can happen. I don't think that that's necessarily great evidence. I think it's evidence that nobody else's DNA was under her fingernails. Yeah. And then the prosecution called a bit of a surprise witness. They called Dave Folsom. Dave Folsom had been Adam's cellmate for like seven months when he was awaiting trial. Oh,

shit. Did Adam tell him everything? Mm-hmm. Yeah. He said that Adam told him that Samira had confronted him that night and that it had led to a big argument. They fought. It turned physical. And Dave testified that Adam told him he had hit Samira in the head with a golf club. Wow. He testified that Adam then told him that he threw samira into the pool in an attempt to remove the dna from her body yeah and that he knew she wasn't dead yet when he threw her in the pool

they then were able to present a golf club that had been found in the Golden Eagle home. It was Samira's golf club, and it had Samira's DNA on it. It wasn't blood, but it was skin cells. It wasn't great evidence, but it was backed up the story to some degree. The defense kind of really tore down this witness, though. I think this is a weird move by the prosecution to put this witness on the stand. I get that he's presenting evidence that could back up their story. But he's also like a known jailhouse snitch.

He got something in return for his testimony. Oh. So he was in jail on on a drug possession charge or something like that. His whole story was that he was getting out of jail soon and that Adam told him all of this so that he would go to the Golden Eagle house and

remove the golf club. Uh-huh. And so the defense is like, on cross-examination the defense is like, so what are you getting out of this? And he's like, I got released a little bit early. And they're like, hmm. So would you say you'd do anything to get out of jail?

Oh, shit. And he's like, yeah, I think most people would. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, man, that was the wrong answer. Exactly. Well, and so then when it's the defense's turn, they called the prosecutor's medical examiner back to the stand. And they asked the medical examiner, do you think Samira's head injuries were caused by a golf club?

What'd they say? No. Yeah. Okay. No, it does not appear to match the injury. Why would the prosecution put this guy on the stand? I think it's a weird move. His story is not backed up by the medical examiner.

And he looks bad. I don't know. Trying to throw everything at it. Everything at it. Yeah. And that's what the defense said. Yeah. They're just trying to throw anything at you and see what sticks.

Yeah. Yeah. So the defense, you know, has their shot now. And their case was that Adam didn't do it. Plain and simple. Someone else did. That's it. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Maybe it was, oh, what's his face? Gerald Gardner. Oh, come on. Leave Gerald out of this. Could have been him. Also, maybe they were having an affair. Because he was so hot?

He's the hot maintenance guy. Or maybe someone broke in and did it. The doors were unlocked at the house. Okay, but wouldn't everyone have been captured on security footage? Yeah, it would have to be somebody in the neighborhood. Yeah. Or, you know what? Maybe it was somebody trying to frame Adam.

Who? What? Come on. Adam's doing enough framing of himself. He's got the FBI on him. Yeah, give me a break. So they did put one witness on the stand that really made the prosecution nervous. 10.30 a.m., they saw someone who matched Samira's description standing in the driveway of the Frosh home in Golden Eagle.

Hmm. Which means that Adam had already left the property. He was on camera leaving the neighborhood at 8 a.m. Wow. And not returning. Yeah. So according to this neighbor's testimony, Adam couldn't have killed Samira.

How does the neighbor know for sure what time they saw her? Just their memory. Hmm, well. So this is the prosecution's case. They're like, you don't know specifically, like, maybe you're misremembering the time.

Maybe you've got the wrong day. Mm-hmm. And on cross-examination, this witness, this neighbor, says, yeah, I didn't know the Froshes. I'd never met Samira. But the woman standing in the driveway looked like her. I'm pretty sure that's the woman that lived there. And I'm pretty sure it was 1030 a.m. Huh.

This made the prosecution very nervous yeah they're like how much stake is the jury gonna put in this guy's testimony how much would you put in it it would make me question things i would want to know so much more about like how do you know what time it was how do you know what time it was? How do you know what day? Yeah. How can you, what makes you so sure that this is 1030, the day that she died? If it was like, Judge Judy always comes on at 1030. Yeah, exactly. You know, it has to be one of those stories. Yeah. So this was like the last witness to take the stand before the defense rested.

And then the case went to the jury and the prosecution was super nervous because they're like. They didn't have to be. You don't think so? No, I think they've got a pretty good case here. What if I tell you that the jury deliberated for only 90 minutes? Hmm. They found him guilty. They did.

Yeah. Yeah. So, again, on the show where I watched in ice cold blood, is that what I told you? Yeah. Yeah. They interviewed the prosecutor and she was like, yeah, we were super nervous when the jury came back in 90 minutes. This is a circumstantial case. I thought for sure they would deliberate longer than that.

It seemed like a very bad sign that they came back that fast. Mm-hmm. But they found Adam guilty of first degree murder. And he was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. Following this, Adam appealed his conviction. So this is based on something that came out at sentencing. So at sentencing, a victim impact statement was read.

It was a letter that Samira's mother had written that she sent into the court and it was read on her behalf. And it was written in French and then translated. There was something that was said about how Samira had told her that she'd heard a prowler near her home in the weeks before she died. But something was lost in translation. The context didn't make a lot of sense. And the defense was like, this is the first we are hearing of this. Like, this is information that should have been disclosed to us. the prosecution's like this was sent out to a translator we didn't even have it in our possession we've just gotten this in its translated form in our possession now and so adam appealed his conviction on those grounds but his appeal was denied wow that's denied. Wow! That's interesting. And so Adam remains

in prison without the possibility of parole, but he maintains his innocence. Well, if he was into ladies who looked just like Samira, is it possible that one of the ladies came over and did it? I wondered the same thing!

I wondered the same thing! Yeah, if that neighbor didn't really. Maybe that neighbor didn't see Samira. Maybe that neighbor saw one of the girlfriends who looked just like her. That's interesting. Yeah. I don't know. I've got questions.

I've got questions. I've got questions. So, actually, just as I was, like, about to come over here for us to record everything, I stumbled upon this website, which is just, like, a blog spot thing. That's fine. Don't need to shit on it. Called Free Doc Frosh. Isn't it?

It says, Free Dr. Adam Frosh, an innocent man. And apparently it goes through all the points about why Dr. Adam Frosch is innocent. Side note, I could not find anywhere that he has been prosecuted for the Medicare fraud. Does not look like charges were ever brought against him for that. Well, that's kind of nice when someone gets locked up for murder. You can just go, we're done with that. Yeah. Let it lie on the file.

That's exactly what they say. And that's the story of a mysterious pool death. That's pretty interesting. Do you think you did it? Yeah, probably. I do think there's questions, though. Yes.

Like, what's the story with that decor? Why do you need 81 cars why why do you need 81 so they're when they were in the middle of this like nasty divorce proceedings before they supposedly reconciled yeah bullshit samir had 17 of his cars towed from their driveway. How big was their fucking driveway? They for sure had a circle drive, right? Yeah. 17 cars. Yeah, that's ridiculous.

Yeah. How do you keep track of the keys? I mean, obviously. So this is what he did. Okay, I heard about this was on the Dateline episode. Okay. He would often like drive somewhere and leave a car there. and, like, drive somewhere and leave a car there and then, like, you know, get a ride to somewhere else

so that he always had cars stowed for him wherever he was going. That is so fucking weird. I think it's super fucking weird. Their two daughters are living in Nebraska now, I believe, with Adam's brother. Okay. Yeah. Samira was only 38 years old.

Wow. Yeah. God, that's really sad. Yeah, it's really sad. Thanks a lot for that. You're welcome. After the uplifting case you gave us. I know. It's a real fun that. You're welcome. After the uplifting case you gave us. I know.

It's a real fun episode. Should we take questions from the Discord? You know what? I think we should. How do people get in the Discord? They join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. Oh, shit. That's right.

What is a Discord? Shut up. Are there any dis...'s right. What is a discord? Shut up. Are there any dis... What's the opposite of a cord? Are there any displugs? That's not really the opposite of a cord. But it's hard to say what's the opposite. Yeah.

Brianna wants to know, are you left or right-handed? Left. Right. Keeps things spicy. That's how we keep it spicy. Well, this is for sure for you. What?

Sydney Geyer wants to know, tips for running my first half? I assume half marathon. I don't think only half her body's running. She partnered up with that magician from my case. She's cut in half. Yeah. No, just get out there and have fun. Do it.

I hope both teams just have fun. Hey, that's the great thing about running. It's not competitive. It's not competitive at all. Except Kyla tries to make it competitive. Oh, my God. I will never forget the time she told me she wasn't mad at me for needing to stop at a porta potty in a half marathon. I was like, I wouldn't give a shit if you were mad.

Are you kidding me? Yeah, Kyla cares about our times. I do not. Oh, panic. No, Disco wants to know, when eating ramen, do you prefer the noodles or the broth? Okay, if I'm making like cheap, you know, 39 cent ramen at home, I don't even make broth. What do you do? You drain the water off and then you mix this.

You just have just moisture on the nudes. Mix it up. No fucking soup. No soup for me. Well, it's no surprise that I enjoy the soup. Of course you do. You love soup. I kind of like what you're saying.

Yeah, you should try it. I didn't even know people ate this broth until I saw something good. And I was like, you don't drain your noodles? What? That's how my mom always did it when I was a kid. Oh. Yeah. I mean, it does sound good. It's really good. Alright, alright. You really opened up my eyes here.

AJ Beers wants to know, do y'all do Christmas shopping early or wait till the last minute like me and panic? I know what you do. I'm an early shopper. She's done Almost done I'm not entirely done But everything that I do have

Is already wrapped in everything Yeah and that makes me Want to punch you In the most loving way Oh gosh Last year I did everything early But I feel like that was The 2020 in me

Oh yeah Of like I'm not allowed to leave this house Yeah So I'll just online shop Yeah And I think this year I really need to But I feel like that was the 2020 in me. Oh, yeah. Of like, I'm not allowed to leave this house. Yeah. So I'll just online shop. Yeah. And I think this year I really need to freaking get on it.

Jump on it. Jump on it. Jump on it. Jump on it. All cops are bastards, says. Can you think of an anecdote you told that totally underwhelmed the other person? I once told my best friend a 10-minute tale about getting my oil changed, and she said, I love you, but there were literally no jokes throughout that entire story. That's amazing.

I feel like I do that a lot to Norm. Like, we're around each other all the time, so my stories can't all be winners. Every story I tell is hilarious. Oh, okay. It's not. Ardna, Ard. Hey, Arna. Wants to know, Kristen, please tell me you stopped trying to use Greek yogurt and everything. False.

I did not love Greek yogurt. You still putting it in shit? Yeah, I'm putting it in shit. You putting it in soup? Yeah, I put it in soup. Did you just put it in soup recently? Yeah. I know it's soup season. It's always soup season in this house.

It's always soup season in this house. It is always soup season in this house. Yeah, you put a little Greek yogurt dollop of it on top of a chili. What's that? Is that sour cream? Maybe it is. No, that's fucking Greek yogurt. Although, admittedly, I don't like sour cream, so I wouldn't put that on there anyway. Yeah, so calm down.

Yeah, have fun with your Greek yogurt. Michael the Mandelforn wants to know, do you ever think about how many people listen to your voices while pooping? I hope that makes you proud, as it should. It does make me proud. Hmm. Yeah. I've never thought about that. You haven't?

People probably listen to us while they're showering. Sure. Yeah. While they're pooping. Sure. While they're banging. No. People listen to us while they're banging?

Absolutely not. But you have such a sexy voice in you. I know, but you're with me, so it distracts me. People listen to us while they're trying to fall asleep? That's really weird. We infiltrate people's dreams. See, I don't see how anyone could fall asleep to this podcast. I don't either.

We get so loud sometimes. We're very loud. I mean, I'm very loud. Also, we're so exciting. Yeah. How could you possibly not be riveted by everything we say? Uh-huh. Mm-hmm.

Ooh. Panic at the Discord wants to know, Brandi, would you rather watch 2020 or a Josh Mankiewicz episode of Dateline? You would choose the Josh episode. I would. I would. I would absolutely pick the Josh Mankiewicz episode of Dateline. I would choose the Josh episode. I would. I would. I would absolutely pick the Josh Mayquist. I fucking love 2020.

I don't like 2020. When I was watching this episode for this week's case, I was just like, yep, they're hitting it out of the park. They were. I don't like it. What don't you like? I don't know. I just don't like it.

It's like. don't like it. What don't you like? I don't know. I just don't like it. It's like. What? Say it. It's like Dollar Tree Dateline. No, it's not. No, they're very different. They are just very different. You know, I like my stories told in the mystery.

So I like how Dateline does it. You don't like that. Dateline thinks you're stupid. Maybe that's why I like Dateline thinks you're stupid. Maybe that's why I like Dateline so much because it makes me feel smart. I'm like, I will solve this mystery!

But can't anyone solve the Dateline mysteries? No, only me. Alright. Ooh, Temple of Hymen wants to know, Kristen, what products do you use in your elaborate skincare routine? Do you have a holy grail skincare product you've discovered? This is going to sound like an ad, but tritinoin or whatever. I mean, it's a prescription thing. Yeah.

But that's the prescription thing. Yeah. But that's the good shit. Yeah. But yeah, other than that, you know, double cleanse, serums, CeraVe, the thick moisture tub. You do a serum and CeraVe? I'm wild, Brandy. I can't be stopped. That seems like a lot of moisture. It sure is.

Why don't you slap a little Neutrogena Hydro Boost on this face every three weeks or so? Yeah, and you sleep in your makeup. You're a freak. No, I sleep with the CeraVe stuff. I don't, you know, that's not my daytime thing. Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. What?

That sounds terrifying. A lot of work. It is. It is. And look at my skin. Your skin looks great. Brandy, do you know the work that goes into this? And you just like.

Everyone, I just did an impression of Brandy just sitting. Not doing anything to her skin. I just have good. I got the good skin genes. Yeah, I know. My parents got good skin. Yeah, congratulations. My uncle was skin.

Goes without saying that you would naturally be skin. I want a list of all the things I've claimed my uncle was on this episode. Oh, someone answered the skincare product with one of your products. Oh, what'd they say? Yeah, Richard and Ball said this question isn't for me, but CeraVe changed my life. It's good shit. Do I need this in my life? No, because you've got good genes.

Just do whatever you're currently doing you know the slack powder which seems to have helped with my my situation I had a couple episodes ago where I was looking real shiny everyone she's slowly touching her face I never touch my face it's just I'm amazed by that all right what happens if you touch your face I'm worried about getting zits from touching my face. Really? Do you just touch your face all the time? Yeah. Maybe that's a secret.

No, it's not the secret. It's infuriating. People are going to be so mad at you when they find out you're just like sitting there touching your face all the time. Not washing your makeup off at night. I wash my face every morning. Yeah, you know what I do? I wash off at night. I wash my face every morning. Yeah, you know what I do? I wash it at night, in the morning, after I work out. It's just all I'm doing.

Maybe you wash your face too much. I assure you that's not the issue. Oh, Anna wants to know, are Sherry and DP coming back to Missouri for Christmas? How does DP spend his Christmas day? Are you guys having family Christmas? Yeah, but we're going to do it after Christmas. Oh, that's right. I knew this already.

Yeah, because everybody's flying out everywhere. How does DP spend his Christmas day? Okay, well, it should surprise no one that Shereree does the heavy lifting on all of the gift buying, the gift wrapping, the everything. So DP mostly wakes up. Says, hey, what are we having for breakfast? What's the deal on breakfast? Someone making that for me. I just asked because, I mean, if not, I'll just pour myself a bowl of cereal.

I'm not, I'm not. Anybody want hot chocolate? They'll make hot chocolate. There you go. You just got the full DP experience. Don't say you got the full DP. You did, whether you wanted it or not. Temple of Hyman asks, what speed do you listen to podcasts at? I listen to y'all at 1.5 speed.

What? Do we sound like we're on meth? I think we talk fast normally. I do, too. I don't. I'll be honest. I don't get this at all. I have never listened to any podcast and been like, you know what I need? I'll be honest, I don't get this at all. I have never listened

to any podcast and been like, you know what I need? I need this to be faster. Me either. I don't get it. Should we talk slowly so it sounds normal when you speed it up?

Is that the dumbest thing I've ever said on this podcast? It just might be. Ultimate Bliss wants to know, do you share a birthday with anyone famous? Yes, the gaming historian. Obviously, and Anne Frank. Oh, whoops.

Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. I always liked it because she got her diary for her birthday. Oh, yeah. So it started on June 12th. And that's a real downer. Yeah, it sure is.

Please call me T-Bone says, re-listening for the third time. And I'm curious, what is your least favorite case that the other has covered and why is Brandy's Kristen's art heist? Yes, any art heist. What's my least favorite? Oh, I know what it is. What? You motherfucker. That awful case you covered about the baby who was in the backseat of the car and left and died.

While the dad was sexting. Okay, but yeah, we don't even know if the dad meant to do... I mean, he was convicted of murder, so... Yeah, I know, but... Yeah, it was a terrible case. Yeah. I'm still angry at you.

I remember my dad listened to that and he called me and he's like, oh, that was a terrible case Brandi covered. I was like, I know. How dare you say that to me? Okay, but you covered one where a dog was thrown into traffic. Okay, you are a fucking freak. Because a human baby dying slowly in the backseat of a hot car is so much worse than a dog dying. It is, Brandy.

It is, yes. Yours was not just a case about a dog dying. It was about a dog being murdered by being thrown into traffic. And your case was about a baby being murdered by being left in the back of a car. Yes, and it's terrible. I agree that it's terrible. That is probably the worst case I have covered. Yeah, it's way worse than a dog being thrown into traffic.

Both are sad. Yeah. One is worse. I'm just saying there's a lot of people that won't even listen to the dog murder episode. Yeah, because a lot of people are fucking weird. Flone says, any advice for removing yourself from conversations you absolutely do not want to have with family members? Yep, here's what you do. You slap your hands on your knees and you go, well, I'll be hitting the old dusty trail.

And then you just leave. You're welcome. Oh, my gosh. This is the worst question that's ever been asked. What? Courtroom Hoodie wants to know, which is a great name, by the way. Brandy, which would you rather? Baby in a diaper covered

in food for three hours or sit in a room with at least six spiders for an hour? You don't have to touch them, but you can see them the whole time. They're in a terranium. Oh, so they're like

secured in a thing? Yeah. They're in a terranium. Oh, so they're like secured in a thing? Yeah. They're secured. They can't get out. I mean, the guy says they're secured. Okay, I have to take the baby. I don't want to, but I would have to. Temple of Hymen wants to know, do either of you still have your wisdom teeth?

If not, what age did you get them removed? You just got yours removed not that long ago. It's true. How many years ago was that? Like two years ago? Two years ago. Yeah. Yeah.

As an adult. I was a fully grown. A full grown adult. Adult woman. I got mine out when I was like 16. Yeah, that's normal. Yeah. I'm a late bloomer.

Late bloomer. Yeah, that's normal. Yeah. I'm a late bloomer. Late bloomer. Yeah, that was real weird. Yeah. And I wasn't real giggly coming out of the anesthesia. I feel like, well, it's not anesthesia, is it? Yeah. Oh, okay. I feel like I got really sad because the nurse handed me an ice pack.

Uh-huh. And I feel like I asked her, sadly, if I could keep it. And she said yes. I don't know. I have a really weird memory of coming up. It was a rough time. I remember when I had mine that I was just like, can you put you like just under enough? So you can like, sometimes you can hear stuff and whatever.

I remember, so I had my arms, I was in the chair and they strap your arms down. Did you have your arms strapped down? See, I, they must've put me under a little more under than you were. Cause I remember nothing. So I remember my arms being strapped down and I kept trying to pull this arm out from the strap and the assistant or whatever slapped my hand.

Oh my God. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And then I think they like kicked up the juice a little bit. I would hope so.

Yeah. This one's still kicking. Exactly. Poogash wants to know tell us about a time when you were most proud of the other. New jobs, new life goals being met, brag about each other. I love the friendship you both have. I was most proud when you gave birth to London. And like you, I mean, you went through just hours and hours. I mean, it was just like, and it was in COVID times.

Oh, thank you. It was everything. Yeah, I, and it was in COVID times. Well, thank you. It was everything. Yeah, I was really proud of you. That was incredible. Thank you. I was most proud of you with your book. I'm still so proud of you with your book. I think that's such an amazing, you wrote a fucking book.

I sure did. That's an amazing accomplishment. You're writing a second book right now. I am. I think that's amazing. I hope it is. It is.

I'm so proud of you for that. Well, thank you. Yeah. My dear. People are going to read them someday and love them. I hope so. Oh my. We have are going to read them someday and love them.

I hope so. Oh, my. We have to go to Iceland right now. Why? Jill says, Brandy, since you love gift shops so much, did you know there's a penis museum in Iceland? What? The gift shop is one of my favorite places I've ever been. And then she shared a picture of a penis plushie they have in the gift shop.

Well, I don't really understand. Like, is it a dildo museum or a penis museum? I mean, I don't have the details. Okay, we just have to go. I mean. Look at those balls. This penis has a Viking helmet on. I need this.

I need it now. You have one like it, but with no Viking helmet. No Viking helmet. I need it for my collection. They also have condoms with pictures of phallic Icelandic landmarks on them. Hmm. What's that thing? It's an ice formation.

It looks like a big old dong. All right. Wow. I think I need to go to this museum. I think so, too. Should we wrap it up and go to Supreme Court inductions? We absolutely... Let's wrap it up with an Icelandic penis condom.

Oh, well, penis condom. All condoms are penis condoms, aren't they? They tend to be. We're continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. My Speak. Anything dairy and gluten-free because I'm allergic to everything. Oh, man. Rebecca Damaris.

Chocolate chip peanut butter cup. Amanda Moore. Mandy Moore? Oh, excuse me. I'm missing you like candy. Did you want to read her favorite cookie? Taraji P. Henson. Oh, she's a funny one.

Oh, Amanda Moore. Kristen H. Chocolate chip cookies with a hint of espresso powder. Okay. Mia. Lavender and honey butter cookies. Interesting. I'd like to take a bath with that.

With cookies? Well, lavender and honey butter, that sounds good. Yeah, that sounds really nice. Sean. Custard cream biscuit dunked in English breakfast tea. I never dipped a cookie in tea. You ever done that? Oh, yeah.

I've lived. You've lived. Rue-a-lue. Soft peanut butter cookies. Carla lived. You've lived. Rue-a-loo. Soft peanut butter cookies. Carla Schmidt. A big cookie. It's a cookie, only bigger, with lots of stuff in it. Janae Thompson.

Smookies. My great-grandma's chocolate chip cookie recipe baked on top of a s'more. Oh, my God. Kate Bart. Star Crunch. Are we calling it a cookie? I'll let it slide this time. Kate barked. Star Crunch. Are we calling it a cookie? I'll let it slide this time. Kate.

Shell Bells. My Amazing, possibly better than Brandy's, chocolate chip cookies. Oh, Brandy's making a sour face at that. How dare you? John Rogers. Oatmeal Raisin. Christine F. Peanut Blossoms.

Laura Park. Anzac Biscuits. Amy McFarland. Peanut Blossom only using Dove chocolate as the blossom. Oh. Oh, shit. I bet that's good. Kaylee Dean.

Subway's Raspberry Cheesecake Cookie. We are sleeping on the Subway cookies. I think so. Alexander Casey. Peanut Butter or Frosted Sugar cookie. Oh, Alexandra got greedy. She named two. Alright. Carrie Kacharski. Peanut butter

raisin cookies? What is that? Reasons! They're dark chocolate caramels. Oh. Okay, that would be delicious. It's a raisin candy in the middle of a peanut butter cookie rolled in chopped peanuts. Oh. Okay, Carrie, that would be delicious. It's a raisin candy in the middle of a peanut butter cookie rolled in chopped peanuts. Oh, okay, Carrie, that sounds pretty awesome. That's amazing.

Cadence Acevito. Gluten-free chewy chocolate chip. Corey M. Oreos dipped in whole milk. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Goodness, this is a long-ass episode. Super long. Thank you for all of your support.

We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media, on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process.

I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of 48 Hours titled A Promise to Ahmaud, an episode of 2020 titled Nowhere to Run, plus reporting from the New York Times, Reuters and NPR. I got my info from an episode of In Ice Cold Blood, an episode of Dateline, an article by Jennifer Portman for the Pensacola News Journal, and ChillingCrimes.com.

For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCPodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read. Their stuff.