Let's Go To Court! - 200: Jodi Arias & the Duke Lacrosse Scandal

Episode Date: February 2, 2022

We missed you all! We are back from break, refreshed and rejuvenated and ready to bring you a VERY meaty boi! Kristin starts us off with a sports story. (Yes, you read that correctly.) Over spring break of 2006, the Duke University men’s lacrosse team was bored. So they threw a party. As the night wore on, they hired two exotic dancers to come perform at their house party. The night was a shitshow. The two women performed for the crowd of men, but stopped when one of the players made a threatening comment about a broomstick. Later that night, hours after the party dispersed, one of the women reported that she’d been gang raped. Then Brandi shows off her giant balls by giving us part one of her Jodi Arias coverage! When Travis Alexander met Jodi Arias, he was awestruck. She was beautiful. They talked all evening, and Travis fell head over heels. Jodi was everything he wanted in a woman. She seemed equally smitten with him. Even though they lived in different states, they tried to make their long-distance relationship work. Jodi even converted to Travis’ religion. But Travis’ friends weren’t quite so taken by Jodi. Over time, he came to question whether Jodi was really the one after all. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “The Price of Silence” by William D. Cohan “Fantastic Lies” episode of 30 for 30 “Duke lacrosse case,” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Case Continues: Jodi Arias Pt. 1” episode Snapped “The Case Continues: Jodi Arias Pt. 2” episode Snapped “Friends say they warned Travis Alexander that Jodi Arias was dangerous for months before she killed him” by Gail Deutsch, Denise Martinez-Ramundo, Jonathan Balthaser, and Enjoli Francis, ABC News “Jodi Ann Arias” murderpedia.org “Murder of Travis Alexander” wikipedia.org “Jodi Arias Timeline: Key Dates In Case Of California Woman Accused Of Stabbing Ex-Boyfriend 27 Times” by David Lohr, huffpost.com “Timeline: A look back at the Jodi Arias murder case” azcentral.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about the Duke Lacrosse team. And I'll be talking about the murder of Travis Alexander. Hmm, seems I'm familiar with this case. How do people mostly know it?

Uh, this might be be Jodi Arias. She's done it, folks. Oh my gosh, you know what I did over break? What'd you do? I grew a giant set of nuts. All right. Congratulations on your new set of nuts, Brandi. Thank you.

You've used them well to bring us the tale of Jodi Arias on this 200th episode. Hey, you know what we're doing as a gift to the listeners? No ads? Yeah. Yeah, this is an ad-free episode. Brandi, don't act like this is a gift to them. Everybody, Brandi. I dropped the ball, folks.

I forgot to open this episode up for ad space. So, you know what you guys get? No ads. No ads. Yeah, it's a gift that we thought about ahead of time. It's a gift that I accidentally gave you. You're welcome. I'm so happy to be back.

I'm so excited to be back. We've missed you all so much, except for you, and you know who you are. Bitches. You know like half our audience has anxiety, so you know like everybody's like, Oh my gosh, you're talking about me She's talking about me She's totally talking about me I promise I'm not talking about you

Or is she? Oh I'm so excited Oh Brandy just gave me curtain bangs And I can't stop touching them Oh my gosh they're so cute Thank you Thank you You look like a

Like a movie star over there. Oh, yeah? Yeah. You've got these curtain bangs, and you've got this nice fresh red, and your layers are just falling perfectly. And what about my smoking hot bod? Oh, yeah. Your bod's hotter than ever. Hot bod.

I want your bod. Wait, what were those commercials for? Body spray? Yes. Brandi, God damn it. Bod. I want your bod. Wait, what were those commercials for? Body spray? Yes. Brandy, God damn it. Bod. Body spray. That's right. Okay, so remember the cartoon characters that were on the packaging?

Do you remember this? They were like illustrated men with six-pack abs. They seemed real to me, though, yes. Okay, so I worked at Walgreens when bod was really popular. And one of my managers that I worked with at Walgreens, his name was Matt. And he held up that bottle. And he's like, if this guy was a real person, he would not be able to support the top half of his body. And he would just fall over because he came down to such a narrow ways.

It was like a triangle man. I've never forgot that. It makes me think of like that's what people always say about barbie is barbie yeah yeah and it's like oh unrealistic standard well i guess the men need that too that's right those two years when bod body spray was a thing do you remember those commercials it was just a bunch of shirtless dudes playing basketball yeah of course i do but and then they'd fuck at the end of the program. Nobody was fucking at the end of it. Sorry.

I always did have a wild imagination. Turns out we did have an ad for Bond Body Spray. Get your ass back to 2002. Get yourself some Bond Body Spray. Say promo code LGTC and check out. To no one. Type LGTC into your time machine.

It would take you back to 2002. And give you a free puka shell necklace. Oh, man, I can't believe you don't know this story. No, I don't know anything about it. What happens? Do they win the big game? Yeah, this is just a sports story. I've come here to tell you a sports story.

Kristen, huge sports fan all of a sudden. Biggest. How about that Chiefs game? Yeah. Uh-huh. Kristen! You know what I thought was going to happen? I thought we were going to lose.

And then you're like, oh, my gosh, we're going to win. And then you're like, oh, no, we're going to lose. Do you know what really happened? Okay, so we watched it with Kyla and Jay. We were down in their basement. And like, you know, it's a really exciting game for anyone who knows what's happening. Yeah, I died minimum three times.

Yeah, and well, I'm glad to have you back. I got up to go refresh my beverage. And Kyla was like, you're leaving right now? Like, yeah. Yeah, I'm very thirsty. And Kyla was like, you're leaving right now? Yeah. I'm very thirsty. I'm going to have to sit and watch football. I'm going to need a beverage. Anyway, here we go, folks.

Tell us about lacrosse. Shout outs to the episode. Okay, you ever watch any 30 for 30s oh yeah love those yeah okay I love them

because very light on sports heavy on story yeah the 30 for 30s yeah they're great alright this one was called

what the hell is that noise a helicopter I'm not quite sure what the that's my chopper coming to pick me up yes this episode of 30 30 was called what the hell is that

it's called 34 30 not 30 30 oh whoops i'm just excited okay uh it's called fantastic lies more like fantastic documentary tell me lies tell me sweet little lies tell me lies all right well tell me tell me Tell me sweet little lies. Tell me lies. Tell me, tell me lies. Excuse me, ma'am. I'm so excited. I am too. I'm like jazzed.

Okay. Also, portions of the book The Price of Silence by William D. Cohen. Okay. I say portions. I just wanted to make it clear that I didn't read this whole thing. There was just part of the documentary that I was like, I want to know more about this part. So got a book, you know. Read it.

Also, Wikipedia. Quite helpful. A little disclaimer, I will say. Okay. In that this is huge. Yeah. And I'm going to talk forever. And you're going to be like, how is she still talking?

And just know that even then I'm leaving some stuff out. Okay. Here we go. Very good. Very good. Today, I'm going to talk to you about sports. Brandi, over the course of our break, I have immersed myself in the world of sports. And now, much like the cool girl in every romantic comedy.

Big sports fan. I love two things, Brandy. Sports and beer. You don't love either of those things. I love them both. Also, I think this is. And also you ditched your glasses. You're super hot.

That's right. Everyone thought I was a nerd, took off the glasses. Oh my gosh, she's so hot. Also, and I think this is kind of unique about me, but I've always tended to be friends with more guys instead of girls. And I think it's because every girl is jealous of me. Yeah, or you're a bitch. I think it's because every girl is jealous of me. Yeah, or you're a bitch.

But enough about how cool and chill I am. Picture it. It's 2005, and we're at the National Championship men's lacrosse game between Duke University and Johns Hopkins University. Is it John Hopkins or Johns Hopkins? Johns Hopkins. Okay. All right. So many.

I think it's a double S situation. All right. Well, it all comes down to this. What's the Johns Hopkins mascot? We got Duke Blue Devils versus the Pocket Protectors. Brandi, there are nerds at both those schools. I don't know what their mascot is. You don't?

Are you serious? I am! I am Googling it right now. If they're cute, it's a frog. Because, you know, hop, hump. Right? I don't... I'm not seeing...

Oh, here we go. They're the Blue Jays. All right. Well, I'm glad you clarified that. A lot of people are unfamiliar with lacrosse, but not me. So I will explain the game to you now. You put on a football jersey, basketball shorts, a cycling helmet, and soccer cleats. Then you grab a butterfly net. But instead of using it as God intended, you use the butterfly net to catch and throw a softball. Oh my God, I just hit something.

Your mission is to get the softball into the other team's hockey goal. And now you know everything there is to know about lacrosse. That's a great explanation. You're welcome. I hurt my thumb. I injured myself pretending to play lacrosse. Well seated. I figured I'd make the team.

But Brandi, don't let the butterfly nets fool you, okay? The good folks at 30 for 30 did a great job educating me on how this is a tough sport for big, tough athletes. Mm-hmm. And you know what? The Duke lacrosse team, no exception. It was just dripping with big, tough dudes filled to the brim with a bunch of thick-necked beefcakes. I say dripping with. I'm just quoting.

I'm sure. Yes, I'm sure that was on the 30 for 30. Just a fun aside, and this is true. It's going to sound like I'm making this up, but this is true. Right after the documentary showed some people being like, yeah, you know, lacrosse is, you know, big tough boys abound, you know, whatever. They flashed the stats of one of the Duke lacrosse players. Uh-huh.

I don't mean to intimidate you, but this guy was a startling 5'9 and 175 pounds. Oh. That doesn't sound like a big dude. Then they showed another guy's stats. Ready for this? Yeah. This big boy measured in at 5'11". Uh-huh.

And a whopping 190 pounds. Oh, gosh. Sound like some little dudes. Like nice, tall, lanky dudes. Do you think they can drive normal cars? Okay, so it does seem that some of the other guys on the team were actually pretty big. But the documentary didn't show their stats here. And I have to make fun of something because it's about to get really bad really fast.

Okay, first off, you'll be devastated to know that Duke lost the 2005 National Championship. The Blue Jays won? Mm-hmm. Hopkins, yep. The score was 9-8. the score was 9-8 and if the footage is to be believed I don't think that both teams had fun because Duke looked devastated

but don't worry they were going to dust it off and try again they can dust it off and try again try again the following year they were like this is our year we will win the national championship. Nothing can stand in our way.

Not a thing. Not one damn thing. It's bad luck that we keep shouting this. Yes. So you get the idea. The Duke men's lacrosse team had its sights set on a national championship. And there was a good chance they'd get it. I mean, after all, they were a great team.

They were going to Duke. The Harvard of the South. And I can say that because I went to the Harvard of Boston. Uh-huh. Yeah. I wonder if Vanderbilt knows that Duke's calling itself the Harvard of the South. In the documentary, someone did call it the harvard of the south no they didn't yes they did for real brandy this is what everyone who goes

to a small school anywhere is like it's the harvard of the blow and it's like it's duke people know yeah but even still everything's a dick measuring contest, Brandy. I hate to tell you. For those who are unfamiliar, Duke is located in Durham, North Carolina, and their mascot is the white devil. Excuse me, blue devils. Jesus. The student population is composed of mostly creamy white elites from the northeast fun fact duke alumni include one former president who is it brandy i have no idea richard nixon oh and for tricky dick

a hey keep it clean all right and 14 living billionaires. Oh. Yay. The article I read for this was really stupid. It was like, if you want to be a billionaire, you should go to one of these schools. And it's like, oh, this is just where rich people go. That's not like. That's not how you become a. Yeah, that's stupid. Anyway.

Fun fact about Durham, North Carolina. What's your fun fact about Durham? Michael Peterson lives there. Oh, well, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maybe I should do that case. Yeah, you should definitely do it.

Do you have the nuts to cover Michael Peterson? I would die. Brandi, I would die. And you'd get to cover that prosecutor who was like, he is a bisexual! Sorry to anyone who has eardrums yeah that would be amazing do i can't follow up jody arias with michael peterson i do not have the nuts for that yes you do all the hits okay anyway yeah what if i do jody arias michael peterson scott peterson drew peterson drew peterson i've tried to do drew peterson a couple times and what happens well because there's bathtub deaths you know how much i love a bathtub death

yeah you weirdo you're yeah very strange the waters are murky and... Oh, her, her. Barely didn't mean that. You didn't? Oh, my God. Just naturally hilarious. It just rolls off the tongue. Okay. So anyway, yeah, if you want to become a millionaire, you go to Duke. That's how that happens.

One alum who was interviewed for the documentary talked about how when he went to Duke, it was surprising when he ran into another Duke student who had a Southern accent. So you get the idea. What? So people came from other places to go to Duke? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Okay.

Well, was that unclear? What's the face? I didn't understand it at first. It's a real thinker. Yeah, it's a pretty sophisticated quote there. So you get the idea. It's a school in the South that attracts students from all over the place. And by all over the place, I mean mostly rich places.

Yeah. Okay. And for that reason, the relationship between Duke and Durham has always been a little complicated. Durham is a fairly big city. And I know we always make that joke because Norm said it, but this actually is the fourth biggest city in North Carolina. So it's not a pretty big city. It's also very racially diverse.

It also has a fair amount of poverty. And around this time, the town gown relations were not good. What are town gown relations? Oh, is that school? Oh, okay. I've always hated that. Yeah, I've never heard that phrase before. You've never heard town gown?

No. I was not a reporter in a college town. Well, we can't all live the good life. Well, we can't all live the good life. So, you know, there's racial tension, snooty, snooty, snooty tension, possibly sinus tension. We have no way of knowing. And all of this tension was building. Hang on.

I've got to enhance my screen here. What does that mean? Zoom in? Yeah. Enhance. Enhance. Have you ever watched any CSI? Yeah. That's what I had to do to my screen. Anyway, so we got tension all around, all amongst us. And then came the night of Monday, March 13th, 2006. It was spring break. Spring break. What's that? did you ever see that movie spring breakers

no did anyone see that movie i mean obviously you did okay the duke campus one person will get that yeah the duke campus was dead but the lacrosse team was on campus because they had to be something about preparing for games or, you know, some such bullshit. Sports, yeah. Those butterfly nets won't... Butterfly themselves. Yeah. The captains of the lacrosse team all lived in a house that was owned by the university. Located at... Okay, it has since been demolished.

Is it going to come up if I Google it? Actually, let me Google it for you. I want to control what you see. I want to control who you talk to, what you do, and your finances. This sounds like a toxic relationship. No, no, no. Only I love you. It's located at 610 North Buchanan Boulevard, Durham, NC.

Okay, let me look it up. North Buchanan Boulevard, Durham, NC. Okay, let me look it up. North Buchanan. Okay. Well, that's not it. It just pulled up this beautiful house. That is not it, I assure you. Zillow, get a hold of yourself. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. Okay. Well, now I'm looking at a vacant lot. Boy, I'm so glad I didn't let you do this. Okay. Hang on. Spoilers. Left and right.

Okay. Okay. I am now going to pull. I've got this pulled up you see jesus everyone i dropped my water bottle and i had a totally normal reaction she was really cool about it oh yeah the little white, so it's a little white house. Yeah. Okay. It weirdly looks like a lot like a bigger version of what Norman and I lived in when we lived in North Carolina. Oh. So I don't know if this was just the Carolina model or what. Yeah. But there you go.

Great. That only took two hours. I'm glad I took that time to do this. Worth it. So the lacrosse team decided to throw a party. They'd have the whole team over. Just 40 dudes hanging out, getting drunk in a tiny house. What could go wrong?

Talk about a real sausage fest. That's exactly right. There are pictures of this party. It's just a ton of white boys in cargo khaki shorts holding up red Solo cups wearing their American Eagle shirts in a big room with like nothing on the walls. Yeah. I can picture it perfectly. Oh, my God. You don't know.

It's so disturbing. It's just like a poster. Yeah. And every other wall is blank. Also, they're all sitting on old couches that are basically fart sponges. Like, you can smell these pictures. Fart sponges. They are fart sponges.

I wouldn't go near one of these couches. So the drinking started around 3 p.m. with a few guys and grew and grew as the night went on. Normally at this point in the evening, the guys would all head out to their favorite strip club, Teasers Men's Club. Oh! According to the Teasers website, it's an upscale gentleman's club offering stellar topless adult entertainment. Stellar. As opposed to average adult entertainment. Subpar adult entertainment.

But you will see nips. But not everyone was old enough to get into teasers and a few people had lost their fight. I'm sorry. This is not even that funny. I meant to say fake IDs,

but I wrote fake ideas. And I just want to say to everyone, your ideas are real, okay? Don't let someone tell you that you have fake ideas. All right. I hope. I hope. Hey, everyone's feeling very inspired now. Plus, on spring break

The lacrosse team had an adorable tradition Of hiring exotic dancers to come perform for them So you know If you can't go to the top of school You go Can you imagine If 36 year old me shows up Hey boys

It would be the scared straight program. They'd be like, okay, we've learned our lesson. We won't ever do this again. So lacrosse player Dan Flannery took it upon himself to make the good times roll. He consulted his Google machine and he found the number for a lure agency. Is it like an escort agency? Yeah, where you call up, get your dancers, you know,

I don't know. Okay. What? Well, are they dancers or are they escorts? A lure sounds kind of... Suggestive? I don't know. Well, it's not going to be like buttoned up agency. It's not going to be like buttoned up agency. It's not going to be like corporate. I almost said stiff, but then it's like, well, that's also subjective.

Yeah. Gosh, maybe we should open up an agency. I don't know. Got no shortage of good names. No, they were calling for dancers. I'd call it Balls Out. No, because then what about people who want to hire ladies? They're going to just assume. No, dudes only.

Or dudes only agents. It's called Balls Out. Because that's the part everyone wants to see. I really like it. Okay, now here's a great idea. Just spitballing. So they've got the topless gentlemen's clubs.

What if, you know, people are made to think, oh yeah, this is a topless club. It's dudes who are topless but also have their balls out. It's like peeking. What? You're just teasing sounds like you're trying to compete with teasers gentlemen's club no you gotta fall no it's like just enough so like everybody's a little bit uncomfortable they They're like, does that guy know his balls are out? Okay. Should I let him know? You are so wrong, and let me tell you why. You're trying to call this place Balls Out, and you only want the balls peeking out?

People are going to be pissed. They're going to say, this is false advertising, and they're going to look themselves in the mirror, and they're going to say, let's go to court. So anyway, Dan called the number, spoke to a woman, and told her what they wanted.

Sorry. They wanted two dudes to show up. Balls out. Then they show up. It's just a sliver of balls. And they're like, excuse me. That's not what I requested. Yeah.

And that's how Brandy went out of business and got into the podcasting game. No, so he called the number. He spoke to a woman and he told her what they wanted. They wanted two white strippers. Okay. He spoke to a woman and he told her what they wanted. They wanted two white strippers. Mm-hmm. Okay. And even though his real name is Dan Flannery, he gave the woman a fake name. I'm sorry.

Would you like to know what the fake name was? I do. Okay, again. His real name is Dan Flannery. The big name he gave her. Fan Danery. Daniel Flanagan. That's so close. True story.

This young man is now with the cia really what kind of spot it's like he gives himself a name that sounds exactly like their real name. Like half an hour later, she called Dan or Daniel back, depending on if he's in disguise, and was like, okay, I have a Hispanic girl and I have a white girl. Both of them are 35,

25, 35. 36 C. And you'll pay $400 to each dancer for two hours. And he was like, okay. And all the guys chipped in 25 bucks and they were stoked as anyone is when they're about to see titties. Yeah. One of the dancers that evening was a woman named kim roberts she was 31 and she wasn't white or hispanic i realize it seems really weird that race keeps coming up but i was about to say don't worry it's relevant worry it's relevant worry it's relevant yes so she was black and korean and she had a young daughter and she'd been working as an exotic dancer for like six months. Her boss at the agency told her to show up at around 11 for a bachelor party of roughly 15 guys.

Okay, well, that's not what's happening there. Right. Kim felt okay with this arrangement. Kim felt okay with this arrangement. She knew she'd be paired up with a more experienced dancer. And it sounded like this would be like a pretty tame night with a small group of maybe older guys. Again, it was a Monday night. Yeah.

So at around 11, she arrived at the house. But she didn't even stop the car. Just looking out the window, she was like, oh, shit, this isn't a bachelor party. This is a Duke party with a ton of young dudes. She circled the block and thought it over and eventually went back to the house. She needed the money. At this point, Dan Flannery met her at her car and talked to her. And, you know, he seemed fine. He kind of put her at ease. You look so uncomfortable, Brandy. A minute ago, we were laughing our balls off. I know, I was laughing. We were. We were.

Now it's going to get bad. Yeah. Well, we had fun. So, you know, he kind of put her at ease. But she did notice that as they were talking, a ton of guys kept coming out of the house to pee on the front lawn. So she's like, ew. Yeah.

This is going to suck. Yikes. So she was outside the house waiting for the other dancer to show up, and she waited for like 30 minutes, and the police drove by a few times, and Kim got nervous because she had a warrant out for her arrest because she'd missed a meeting with her parole officer. So she's like, ugh, I should probably go inside the house just to kind of be safe. This whole time there was a fair amount of talk about race, which is good.

We should all talk about race, right? Yeah. Yeah. Which is good. We should all talk about race, right? Yeah. As I mentioned, the guys had requested two white dancers, which I didn't know you could make. Okay, anyway.

Yeah. And we're told they'd get a Hispanic dancer and a white dancer. And even though Kim isn't Hispanic, she's black and Korean, they were like, well, she she's the Hispanic one I guess the other one will be white okay I know I know so they waited and waited and finally the second dancer arrived it was Crystal Mangum Crystal was a single mom to two young children and she was a student at North Carolina Central University in Durham, and she's black. She'd been dropped off by a friend, and according to the guys, she appeared to be on something. She had trouble walking. She couldn't talk very clearly. Crystal later admitted that she'd had

one or two beers and a muscle relaxer before she showed up at the party. But, you know, for what it's worth, she and Kim talked for a while and they talked about their kids and their work. And Kim said that it was just like a normal conversation. It didn't set off any alarm bells. So both dancers were at the house ready to do their thing. All the guys gathered in the living room of the house and Dan made an announcement before the women came in. Here's what he said. Hey, both girls are here and they're chocolate. Oh, God. Yep. Apparently, there's like, okay, I didn't write this part down, but there's like one black guy on the lacrosse team. God, that to be fun and he was like hey you know all right you know it's fine and someone else was like yeah as long as we're seeing vaginas i don't know i really doubt he said vaginas yeah but you know as long as

there's vulva here we're good i'm ready to see pubes. And you know what? The colors may be different of our pubes, but they're all curly just the same, and I think that's really great. Brandy, you were racist before this, but then you heard that,

and you're like, oh my gosh. Our pubes are all curly. Our pubes are all the same. How great. So meanwhile, Kim and Crystal were in the bathroom getting into costume and talking about their performance. And they came out and began to dance. and they came out and began to dance. It went on for a little bit and it started out fine,

but it didn't take long before Kim got nervous. There were a lot of guys there. Oh, God. Yeah, sounds terrible. It sounds terrifying, terrible. Yeah. No, thank you. They weren't being super respectful, and she and Crystal were the only women in sight.

At one point, one lacrosse player recalled that his teammate Peter Lamod asked Kim if she put objects up her vagina. And Kim, who is awesome, said something like, I put your dick in me, but you're not big enough. Peter responded really well to that, as men often do. He grabbed a broomstick and said, would this do? Oh, Jesus. Yeah. So player Matt Zash remembers this a little differently.

He said that Peter Lamod had asked the women if they'd brought any sex toys, and Kim had said something like, What's wrong, white boy? Is your dick too small? Which, again, also very good. To which Peter Lamod grabbed the broomstick and said, Here, you can use this, and I'm going to shove this up you. Oh, my gosh.

So, you know, two slightly different stories. Either way, he's a giant douche. Yeah. And Kim was having none of it. She was super uncomfortable. And she's like, nope, show's over. You guys aren't being respectful. We're done.

But this created some chaos. Kim and Crystal went into another room and shut the door. But Kim says Crystal didn't want to leave. She thought if they stayed, they could maybe make more money. But Kim was done. There were too many guys there. She didn't like the vibe. They weren't being respectful. They needed to go. In the meantime, some of the guys tried to get the women to stay. But once it became clear that the women were going to leave, some of the guys got mad. clear that the women were going to leave, some of the guys got mad. They thought they'd been hustled because the women had stripped for like just a few minutes. Some of them wanted their money back. Some of them hilariously wanted to call the police. Okay. Yeah. Okay. One of you

just threatened to shove a broomstick up a woman. Like half of you are underage, drunk as skunks. Yeah. Call the police, please. Yeah. Some of the guys tried to haggle with the women to get some of the money back. I know. Yeah.

And finally, according to one guy, they paid them $100 just to leave. Okay, whatever. Who knows? Okay. This just sounds like such a mess. So the women started to leave, and Kim got into her car. But, you know, she and Crystal had arrived separately, and Crystal had been dropped off. And she didn't feel right leaving Crystal behind with all these dudes.

Particularly because over the course of the night, you know, the guys had been douchebags, but Crystal had gotten more and more out of it. By this point, Crystal was passed out half naked on the back porch of the house. Oh, my gosh. So Kim's like, OK, well, I can't leave her behind. So she needed to get her to get her a ride home. So lacrosse player Kevin Coleman went over to Crystal where she was passed out on the porch and took a picture of her and then helped get her into Kim's car. And the picture was for? I assume.

Well, you know what? I assume well you know what hopefully I'll remember to talk more about this picture later but anyway so he took a picture so then Crystal's in the car and Kim's like wait she doesn't have her purse the whole reason we did this

horrible thing is for money like she needs to have her money so she asked Crystal if she had her things The whole reason we did this horrible thing is for money. Like, she needs to have her money. So she asked Crystal if she had her things, and Crystal was just incoherent. She was saying, yeah, I got everything. But, like, she's looking at Crystal. She's like, I know you had a purse. You don't have your purse on you.

Okay. So Kim went back into the house to try to get Crystal's things. But she couldn't find them anywhere. And the party was dispersing, and things were really devolving. And finally, Kim gave up looking for Crystal's purse. And she's like, OK, I just have to get out of here. As they prepared to leave, the guys shouted the N-word at them over and over again. Oh, gosh. The next door neighbor, who was, of course, awake, because how could he not? Yeah. Heard one of the guys yell hey bitch thank your grandpa for that nice cotton shirt jesus yeah so kim was furious yeah it'd been a horrible night

now she's dealing with this racist shit so she yelled you limp dick white boys you're not real men you had to pay for us and of course one of the guys yelled back go home and feed your kids and another one said well we asked for whites not N-words. Oh my gosh. At some point Kim shouted back that's a hate crime

I'm calling the police. She was so upset. It had been a terrible night and it didn't seem right that these guys could just get away with that. Yeah. She wanted someone to do something about these guys calling them racial slurs, but she was in a tough spot. She wanted to call the police, but she had an outstanding warrant and she just finished dancing for these men. So she thought that might make her look bad.

finished dancing for these men. So she thought that might make her look bad. But finally, at 1253 a.m. in tears, she called the police and she didn't give them her real name. She didn't tell him she was a dancer. She just said, and this this call, it's like heartbreaking. She goes, hi, I don't know if this is an emergency or not necessarily, but I'm in Durham and I was driving down near Duke's campus and it's me and my black girlfriend and the guy, there's like a white guy by the Duke wall. And he just hollered out the N-word to me. And I'm just so angry. I didn't know who to call. And she just sobs.

She made it very clear. She's like, I'm not hurt and don't want to press charges. But like, if that's something you guys take seriously, this is just what happened. Yeah. So now, you know, she's made this call. She's got Crystal in the seat next to her, but she didn't know Crystal's real name.

Mm-hmm. She didn't know where Crystal lived, and Crystal was out of it. Mm-hmm. was out of it. Totally out of it. So Kim tried calling her boss to get Crystal's address. But the boss wasn't any help. So Kim's like, well, fuck.

What do I do? What would you do? I don't know. Just take her to my house. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Uh-huh. Let her sober up. Yeah.

So Kim drove to a 24-hour Kroger grocery store and found a security guard and told him kind of some version of what was going on. She said she'd been driving down the road, saw this woman passed out near some guys. So she took the woman in because she was worried about her. And, you know, the guy was like, you really shouldn't take in people you don't know. She's like, yeah, that's exactly what happened. So at about 1.22 a.m., the security guard called the police and told them, hey, there's a lady in someone else's car. She's not getting out. She's, quote, intoxicated, drunk or something.

He said she's not dangerous, you know she's not getting out of this car yeah so the police arrived and eventually got crystal out of the car but it was clear that she was very fucked up and she had no id on her they initially thought about taking her to durham county jail to be held for like 24 hours, sleep it off. Yeah. But instead they took her to Durham Center Access, which is like a halfway house slash emergency room, which I didn't know was a thing. But anyway, because it appears one of the officers thought Crystal was a danger to herself or others. So, you know, eventually Crystal came to and Durham Center Access and a nurse asked her some questions. And it came out that Crystal had two children, five and six years old, who were currently home alone.

Oh, my gosh. The nurse asked, did something happen to your children? And Crystal said, no. The nurse said, did something happen to you? And Crystal said, no. The nurse said, did something happen to you? And Crystal said, yes. And the nurse said, were you raped? And Crystal nodded. So, what?

Okay. What? Okay. The speculation here is that maybe Crystal came to and realized that DSS might get involved and she might lose custody of her children. Yeah. She had kind of an interesting history. Like, she'd had a rough life. A few years earlier, she'd, this is a wild story, she got drunk, stole a taxi cab, and almost ran over a police officer.

Oh my gosh, it was like real life Grand Theft Auto. Oh, hey, yeah. Never played that game, but anyway. So, you know, who knows, maybe she felt like she was already on thin ice, and here she was. Yeah. Fucked up, and here she was. Yeah. Fucked up. Her kids were alone at home. At any rate, she said that that night she had been hired as an exotic dancer, and she'd been raped at the Duke Lacrosse party.

Then she said she hadn't. Then she said she had. Then she said she hadn't. She went back and forth, back and forth, giving and recanting this story. At one point she said that five men had raped her. She said she'd been robbed. She said she danced with two other women.

Then she said that three men had raped her and that it had been at a bachelor party. The story was kind of all over the place. And three days after the party, La Crosse co-captain Dave Evans woke up from a nap at 610 North Buchanan to find 10 police officers in his living room with a search warrant. Holy shit. Yeah. He and the other guys fully cooperated. They talked to the officers, told them their version of what happened. Said, sure, yeah, we'll come in later to give DNA samples. The guys weren't worried.

They hadn't raped anybody. They'd been total douche canoes, but that's not a crime. Yeah. Later that day, the lacrosse coach, Mike Pressler, was annoyed with his players for having this rowdy party. But he stood by them. They said nothing happened. He believed them. Nothing happened.

Overall, the players were super casual about this whole thing. Yeah. It would blow over for sure. Mm-hmm. I don't think it did because there's a 30 for 30 about it. Brandi, you know who wasn't casual about this whole thing? The police? Literally anybody.

Because this story had everything. Race, class, privilege, lacrosse sticks. Race, class, privilege, lacrosse sticks. Our listeners are really at a disadvantage because they didn't see the fun dance. It was a fun dance. Yeah. At one point, a local reporter got a tip about the story. This was huge.

Yeah. Ten days after the party, when nearly the whole damn team went to the station to give their DNA samples, whoopsie surprise, a reporter was standing outside. And either she was taking pictures or she brought the photographer with her. At any rate, the attorney for the players was like, oh, shit, this is bad, but don't worry. Hey, I've got a great idea. You guys should cover your faces as you walk into the police station. Uh-huh. So the newspaper ended up getting photos of this line of white guys walking into the police station with their shirts up to their foreheads.

Yeah, I've seen that picture. Have you really? Did you think they looked guilty or innocent? Doesn't look great. When you use your T-shirt as a turtle shell, it makes you look guilty. Sure does. Also, so I was kind of looking at these photos. It appears some of them have like black hand towels over their heads.

And I'm like how did they get those yeah where was that from i these are the questions i have that i was not able to answer okay this is the most important question about this whole thing am i right no you just keep hand towels around maybe it's a lacrosse towel what's a lacrosse i don't know people have golf towels i have a bowling towel maybe there's you do maybe a lacrosse towel is a thing their beach towel yeah when you're when you're bowling your hands get kind of sweaty you gotta yeah in the kind of get some oil build up from your ball so why can't you just use a towel well you do but it's a bowling towel so if you hopped out of the shower and used a bowling towel, this isn't sufficient.

No, that's too small. Bowling towel's small. Okay. It's only like this big. So like six by six. It's pretty small. It's pretty small. All right.

Just enough for your fingies. Yeah. I'm not wiping my whole body down with my bowling towel. Alright. Just an idea for next time then. Distract the competition. I can't believe that you've seen this picture.

So this is the one thing you know of the story? Yeah, this is like all I know. So this was officially big news. The media was all over the story, including the New York Times. And it was a hell of a story. A young black woman had been gang raped at a party by three privileged lacrosse players. And the rest of the team was refusing to tell the police or anyone else what they knew. Is that what happened?

Yeah. Is it? It's exact, Brandi, race, class, privilege, lacrosse sticks. I mean, I think some real douchey stuff happened at that party, but. I don't recall there being a gang rape. Maybe that was left out of the tale. Maybe. Yeah, so none of them were talking.

What a bunch of dicks, right? They were facing no consequences. The whole damn team continued to practice, continued to do their thing. All the while, they were working together to cover up a gang rape. I thought that they were cooperating with the police and they came in and- Shut up. No. Okay.

No. Okay. My mistake. Yeah. That is your mistake. I don't know where you got that idea. One Duke professor publicly called for the lacrosse coach to be dismissed. He pointed out that there had been multiple other instances of lacrosse players being arrested for drunken behavior.

And the university had done nothing. What? university had done nothing what i mean this story's really gotten some legs and people are really jumping to conclusions before there's been much of an investigation here it sounds like to be fair it all sounds like it could be so true absolutely right i mean this is the kind of thing we know this should happen absolutely and so here we get this story it's like yep yep there we go okay i hated this part because i hate the word quiver but um in new york where's that going hold on what in the documentary the reporter from the new york times like, who was interviewed was like, you know, this is the kind of story that makes a journalist quiver.

You know, it's all the stuff we know happens. I know, right? Gross. Quit quivering around me. Yeah, exactly. I don't like to be titillated either. And yet I want to open up balls out with you. Boy, that's a thinker, isn't it?

It does. It sounds titillating. Just the idea of it. Makes me quiver. Make me quiver. That could be our tagline. That's right. All right. So, you know, women on campus were understandably upset. Had this really happened? And if so, what was the university going to do about it? What was anyone going to do about it? Had it really happened? Brandy, would you shut the fudge up?

Obviously it had happened. Okay. Enter the hero of this story, District Attorney Mike Nifong. Nifong? Nifong, yeah. Oh, I love that name. Do you? Yes! Alright, well good, because you like

the hero of the story, so. Awesome. Is this guy going to turn out to be a bad guy? Mike was in an interesting position. I don't like how you didn't answer that question. He had spent his whole professional career working as a prosecutor. He had the experience to take this case forward. He was super well respected, and he tried more than 300 felony cases.

He'd recently been appointed district attorney by the governor. But it was kind of like a placeholder thing. You know, he hadn't earned it. Right. He didn't run for it. Right. He wasn't voted in. Sure.

He was appointed. But here's the thing. Mike really wanted to keep being district attorney. Like, he'd do anything to keep being district attorney. Like make an example of these white guys at Duke who were accused of raping a black woman? Here's the problem, Brandi. The primaries were coming up and it didn't look like our buddy Nifong here had a shot in hell. And then this case fell into his lap. And coincidentally, because he just loves justice. Voting for Nifong can't be wrong.

See, it's a good name. Yeah, I think his posters were like, let's keep Nifong, which is not... That's not catchy. Well, we'll see if he needs a new campaign manager. So, you know, he loves justice. So he really wanted to do right by this case. And he was very willing to talk to the media about it. Oh, no. Like, always available to the media. Whenever.

Day or night. Whenever they wanted to talk. I don't think this is good. Man, Mike Nifong made for such a good interview, too. He was certain that this crime had occurred, and he was super pissed because the Duke lacrosse team was not cooperating with investigators. Mike did great in these interviews. He was confident and disgusted about what had happened. And he wasn't the only one.

Everyone was appalled by this story. Yeah, it's terrible. Yes. If it happened. I remember when this story happened. We talked about it in one of my classes. And we were all just like, oh, so disgusted that these privileged men were banding together and not talking. Has anybody talked to Kim?

Kim? Interesting you should ask that. I'm going to go with no. I'm going to go with no. Maybe Kim, you know, doesn't know what she's talking about. Or like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, maybe she's confused. I have real weird feelings about this.

So, you know, everyone's appalled. We're all appalled. People made their opinions known. There were noisy protests featuring posters. So many posters. You know, I love a poster. Or do they have catchy sayings on them? Do you think I'm not going to read them to you?

People taped the posters to the house where this gang rape had occurred. One read, get a a conscience not a lawyer i like that you don't seem impressed you don't no all right let me try another one obviously this was posted on a sunday morning okay said Sunday morning. Time to confess. Oh, that one's good. All right. I like that one. Also, let me give you another one. You can't rape and run.

No, that's not even catchy. I don't like that one. What? I don't like that one, but it was there. Also, this is more of a poster just for the general public. Don't be a fan of rapists. That's just good common sense i agree yeah put that one up anywhere oh okay in the documentary it was like lacrosse is such a big deal it's second only to basketball at duke and it's like well that's like saying my laugh is the second best one on this podcast.

Like, can we really compare, like, Duke basketball? I mean, come on. If I know. Yeah. Anyway. So, you know, they've got their posters, some better than others, but we're not here to judge the posters. And people took pots and banged on them outside the house. They chanted, we say no more, you know.

They held up banners. One read, simply, castrate. Oh, God. Worth a thousand words in my book. Woo. Mm-hmm. What? You look troubled by all the castration.

I am. I'm very troubled. I am. I'm just, I'm feeling real weird about this. People took photos of the lacrosse team from the game program, or playbill if you will, and made posters of the photos. Across the top of the posters, in all caps, they'd written, Please Come Forward. Lacrosse coach Mike Pressler's house was also a gathering place for protesters. People put signs up on his house. One read, Do Your Duty. Turn them in.

Do your duty. Turn them in. Another read, rapist lover, which is weird because rape has nothing to do with making love. Oh, wait, I get it. Jesus. Okay. Yeah. Were there three specific suspects named at this time or was it just like we know three of you were involved and you're all covering it up together? Well, I mean, I don't think they knew that everyone was covering it up together. But, you know, like people talk.

How could there be a gang rape in a house with so many other people in there and people not know like people talk how could there be a gang rape in a house with so many other people in there and people not know yeah how could there be and how could there not be talk afterward yeah how could there be how could there be yeah it seems and i think i know a thing or two about this. Lacrosse? No. The people are jumping to conclusions. Making some judgments.

Why do you know a thing or two about that, Brandy? Like the facts are all out there. I myself have heard someone do it on this podcast a time or two. It's my dad's favorite thing, Brandi. When you jump to the wrong conclusion and you are in it with both feet. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Quite a few Duke faculty circulated an ad with the heading, what does a social disaster sound like? I'm not, I just want to clarify that. I'm not saying I think it's bad that people are like believing the woman who is saying she was raped. Like that's, that's not bad. Right. That's what you want. Yeah. I'm saying that maybe a proper investigation has not been done here i think it's honestly really tough yeah um especially in a situation where like okay you're on campus yeah and i mean oof i think as a woman on I'd be like, can we like get these dudes out of here for a while?

Yeah. Yeah. But I think this reaction is a very natural reaction. Yeah. Yeah. But it makes me feel weird. Yeah. I mean, it's pretty horrible if it's not not true

okay so you know the faculty was pretty pissed about this they created this ad i was gonna read you the whole thing but like you get the idea yeah they are anti-gang rape so that's refreshing that's a good stance to have i agree yeah and i won't apologize for. They are anti-gang rape, so that's refreshing. That's a good stance to have. I agree. Yeah. And I won't apologize for it. For being anti-gang rape? Yeah.

But despite all this pressure, no one on the lacrosse team was brave enough to admit what had happened that night. So 12 days after the party, the team had a game against Georgetown, which is the Harvard of Washington, D.C., and the Duke administration forced the team to forfeit the game. I believe the official stance was something like, you know, this is your punishment for an ill-advised party. They'd forfeit two games. I think that's fine. Yeah. Like, yeah, the party probably shouldn't have happened, regardless of whether there was a gang rape there or not. See, I think the problem with this is if the gang rape did occur and all you're doing.

Well, yeah, that's not enough if a gang rape did occur. Well, yeah, that's not enough if a gang rape did occur. But if it didn't, then, I mean, it's hard for me to understand because I'm like, who gives a shit? But, I mean, these guys were very upset. Yeah, well, also, I'm sure that they, you know, are, you know, when they sign up to be a collegiate athlete, aren't they saying, like, I'm not going to break the break the law and be an you know support underage drinking and shit so well yeah but i mean come on this is bringing the law yeah but it's hip to be square okay that's something all the kids are saying these days. Yeah. So, I don't know, man. Apparently forfeiting the two games, this was real serious for the players.

Well, yeah. It would be. It would have a great effect on their season. Uh-huh. Yeah. It's so funny to me because, like, this documentary, I mean, the parents, the kids, I mean, people are just like oh my god can you imagine and this is just outside of my realm I just don't get it the only thing I can kind of get is like obviously I love cheer yeah on Netflix and when they had to not perform in Daytona because of COVID they were devastated And I was devastated for them.

Yeah. So I kind of. Yeah. I had to put it through the cheer lens, though. Yeah. Damn COVID. Yeah. All right.

Anyway. Yeah, it's the worst part of COVID. Daytona was canceled. I think Daytona's going pretty strong. I saw them perform last year. Not a lot of masks. Anyway, so at this point, it was so serious that a lot of the parents began hiring defense attorneys. Days passed.

Still, the players refused to turn on each other. Then. Is that for real? Are they not cooperating well no i mean they all gave dna samples like they well yeah then but they're not turning on each other like the police were talking to them and none of them were turning on each other so they weren't cooperating or maybe there was nothing to turn on each other for. They were like, yeah, we were shitheads and there was a party and like, yeah, we probably said some really shitty things and we're douchebags. We're racist douchebags. Yeah.

And that's the end. Get ready to eat your words, Brandy. Okay. 23 days after the party. A bombshell. Investigators discovered that after the party that night, about an hour after Crystal reported being gang raped, Ryan McFadden, the 6'6", star defenseman of the lacrosse team, wrote an email to other players detailing his plan

to murder strippers. Here's what it said. What? I got the email right here. To whom it may concern, tomorrow night, after tonight's show, I've decided to have some strippers over to Eden's 2C. All are welcome. However, there will be no nudity. I plan on killing the bitches as soon as they walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off while coming in my Duke-issued spandex. That's not real. This is not real. All besides Arch and Tack, please respond.

P.S. Wear a smock. Could get dirty. That is not real. Nobody sends out an email and is like, hey, come on over, folks. We're murdering strippers. We're going to come in our shorts. In the Duke-issued shorts. I'm sorry, come in our Duke-issued shorts. I'm sorry, come in our Duke-issued shorts.

Is this planted evidence? Hmm. Is this fabricated evidence? Hmm. By the fucking district, whatever, what is it? Who is it?

Who's the guy? Who's Mike? Oh my God, she's short-circuiting. Who is it? What's it? Go on. What's his?

Angelo Thompson. I've got 20. What's my exposition? He's district attorney. Did the district attorney write this email? Brandi, this is a real email. No, it's not. No, it is.

It is a real email, not planted. No. I swear to God, this is a real email. What do you make of this? Well, that guy's a fucking idiot. Okay. So it was a sickening email. Everyone lost their shit.

The media reported the shit out of this story. Ryan, of course, received death threats. He was suspended immediately. I mean, this was horrifying. First, they gang raped an exotic dancer, and then their next plan was to murder exotic dancers. What? So, you know, everybody's just freaking out

because it's such a terrible, disgusting email, obviously. Yeah. But at the Duke student newspaper office, they were reading this email and somebody goes, wait a minute. Isn't this from American Psycho? It was. Oh, my God. So the lacrosse team had made a bunch of inside jokes based on American Psycho. And so the whole email had been a joke, a bad joke.

Yeah. But made so much worse in light of all that had happened. Yeah. It looked really, really bad. Yeah. At this point, Coach Mike Pressler was forced to resign. And the rest of the lacrosse season was canceled. Yeah.

If anyone had doubted the lacrosse players' guilt, they weren't doubting anymore. Yeah, that's out the window now. Yeah, these guys are sick fucks, right? But still, none of them had been charged because none of them were talking. Also because Kim couldn't really back up Crystal's story, but that's neither here nor there. Well, I actually think that's very important. What's Kim saying? Okay, so this is what drove me a little crazy about the documentary.

Kim was not interviewed. I don't know if they didn't. And they didn't really cover that side of it at all. But that was my kind of big. That's a huge thing. So the book went into detail about Kim's side. And I think that's really big that she was saying, no, we weren't separated from one another. Yeah.

And obviously it was a bad night. Bad things happened. And who knows? I mean, maybe something else happened to Crystal that day. I don't know. But it doesn't seem to be this. Yeah. But, you know, none of that mattered.

Okay? Because soon the DNA would reveal all. And 28 days after the party, the DNA report came out. Oh, shit. None of the Duke lacrosse player's DNA had been found on Crystal. That's too bad. That's weird. We should just throw that in the trash so nobody sees that.

So, you know, by this point, the players' defense attorneys had all banded together to form the Hall of Super Best Friends. And they were like, OK, there's no DNA evidence to support this gang rape claim. District attorney, are you going to drop the charges? Are you going to drop all this? Sorry, no one had been charged yet but you know yeah yeah drop the investigation like yeah clear the good names of these white douchebags sorry i mean we know they're douchebags like that is not up for debate yeah i agree but it doesn't really sound like they're getting raped anyone yeah at a press conference mike nifong said for most of the years i've been doing this we didn't have dna we had to deal with sexual assault cases the good old-fashioned way

witnesses got on the stand and told what happened to him. Not a good take, Mike. Okay, so this drives me crazy for a number of reasons. You know, obviously, if a rapist wears a condom, like there can be rape cases where there's not DNA presence. Yes. But to say for most of the years I've been doing this, we didn't have DNA. Well, no, that's because you couldn't test for it like back then. That's not the same as like we ran the

tests and we didn't find anything. So, you know, Mike's case was kind of in the shitter, but he really wanted to keep being district attorney. You have no idea how fun it is to be district attorney. It's the best. You've got to keep being district attorney. You have no idea how fun it is to be district attorney.

It's the best. You've got to keep that job no matter the costs. So what if they didn't have DNA? DNA shmeana. That's what I say. They had photo lineups. And not just any photo lineups. Special photo lineups. Of only Duke any photo lineups. Special photo lineups.

Of only Duke lacrosse players? Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds great. Yeah, so this violated the Durham Police Department's rules for photo lineups. You're obviously supposed to put in filler people. Yeah. You know, I don't know, picture Bert and Ernie in there.

Yeah, something. But no, only Duke lacrosse players were in these lineups. And the police told Crystal before she looked at them that she'd only be looking at Duke lacrosse players. Great. So this is a... Can't pick a wrong one. Yeah. From those lineups, she picked two guys. Colin Finnerty and Reed Seligman.

And they were both arrested. She couldn't identify the third guy, so DA Mike Nifong went back to that pesky DNA. Surely, there had to be some DNA from a Duke lacrosse player on Crystal. What about dino DNA? That's enough. At this point, Mike hired a private lab called DNA Security to do additional testing. He was hoping that this

private lab would be able to find DNA that the state crime lab had missed. Why the hell are you looking at me like that? Or that he could manipulate the results. Lo and behold! He could manipulate the results of a private crime lab?

DNA lab? Whatever? Oh no. Oh no. The lab found something. I bet they fucking did. One of Crystal's artificial nails had been found in a bathroom trash can of the lacrosse house. And this special lab found a partial DNA match on that fingernail. Get a load of this.

That DNA matched lacrosse player Dave Evans. Guilty as charged. Lock him up. Lock him up. Lock him up. Feel free to join in. Lock him up. I don't feel good about this at all. Until this point, I don't believe any of the Duke lacrosse players had spoken publicly.

But that changed, thanks to Dave. He stood in front of a crowd of reporters, and here's part of what he said. When the police first came to my home, I fully cooperated and have continued to try to cooperate with them. When they entered and started to read the search warrant, my roommates and I helped them find evidence for almost an hour and told them that if they had any questions, we would gladly answer them to show that nothing happened that night. I'd like to say thank you to my friends and my family, my coach, and members of the community who have stood by us through everything from the initial weeks till now. Their support has given me the strength to come through this, but the thing that

gives me the most strength is knowing that I have the truth behind me. I am innocent. Reed Seligman is innocent. Colin Finnerty is innocent. Every member of the Duke University lacrosse team is innocent. You have all been told some fantastic lies. Wow. Yeah. I got goosebumps. Wow. Yeah.

I got goosebumps. Yeah. So that was pretty powerful. That's very powerful. You know, this case is moving forward. They're going to go on trial for rape. Colin, Reed, and Dave all appear to come from

quite a bit of privilege. So their parents hired them excellent attorneys, and they were all very active in building their defense cases. Because, you know, these are all smart guys. Yeah. So, I mean, the defense teams all worked together. They had weekly meetings with one another. They pooled their resources. And, you know, the state of North Carolina obviously had a lot of resources. But when you put the defense teams together, you know, this wasn't too shabby.

And that's how the prosecution's case began to fall apart. One interesting thing that they discovered was the verbal description that Crystal initially gave of her three attackers. Yeah'd she say so she'd i think described them as like dark hair you know kind of stocky which honestly describes like all the lacrosse players so but it doesn't match colin finnerty like at all colin finnerty is built like a very tall baby doll i know that sounds like i'm trying to be funny, but like seriously, he has this baby face. I mean, he's super lanky. And also I've seen footage of Colin's father and Colin will grow out of it.

So don't worry. Okay. His father is quite handsome. You can see how it's going to happen for Colin. I'm just saying that like at this point in time, he looked like a very tall baby doll. No one would call him stocky. Also, he's blonde. Anyway, one day he'll be a real boy.

So Crystal's initial statement didn't match who she eventually picked from the lineup. But get a load of this. Sergeant Mark Gottlieb, who was the police supervisor in this case, released his notes. And oh, guess what? The description in his notes matched up with those final three players perfectly. Did it? Nothing sketchy is going on here. He went back and adjusted his notes.

Hey, he definitely didn't write these notes after the fact. This is top-notch police work. I don't think it is. The defense team also focused on everyone's cell phone records. And that's how the timeline fell apart. They discovered that between 11-11 and 11-39, Crystal made five phone calls. Jason Busy lived next door to the house and he remembered quite specifically that it was midnight when the women first went into the house. Reed was on his phone from 1206

to 1214, after which point he and a friend got in a cab and went to an ATM. There's footage of this. It's not up for debate. Yeah. Colin made a phone call at 1222. Another phone call at 1224. Dave made a call at 1129 and another call from 1234 to 1250. At 1226, Crystal made a call to the voicemail box of her escort service. Then at 1246, Reed came back to his dorm. And, I assume you've got to swipe the key card to get in there. So there you go. This is all much easier to visualize when you're looking at the fun little time chart in the documentary. But the bottom line is when you put all of this together, these four people didn't even have 10 minutes when they could have been alone together.

But there were other things that stood out about the investigation. District Attorney Mike Nifong had told the police that he would be in charge of the investigation. You know, that was a little odd. Also, he never talked to Crystal. I guess he had everything he needed. Also, this came out later, but time is a construct, so I'm going to throw it in here. Sergeant Mark Gottlieb had a super weird reputation for being overly aggressive in how he dealt with Duke students. He was a UNC fan.

Oh, shit. I don't know. So the defense teams kept working together, and yay, hooray, Mike Nifong won the primary election. Brandi, you don't seem happy for him. I'm not. You applaud when things go well. All right. If you want to be wrong, vote for Nifong.

Oh, uh-oh. I changed my slogan. Your campaign manager has turned against you, Mike. Sorry. So, you know, good guys are winning. Mike's going to probably get back in office. Yes, he's fabricating evidence and... How dare you?

You are gross. This attorney, Brad Bannon, who was on the defense team for Dave Evans and has the cutest little baby face you ever did see, really gives Colin a run for his money, knew that he had to look into this DNA evidence. This was the only thing tying his client to this rape, and the whole thing seemed fishy. Only thing tying his client to this rape. And the whole thing seemed fishy. How had the state crime lab and the private lab come up with such different conclusions? Well, see, what happened was the private lab was given evidence that had been tampered with by Mike Nifong. Not quite. Okay.

But I like where your head's at. Not quite. Okay. But I like where your head's at. So Brad asked the DA for all the data, and Mike Nifong sent over 2,500 pages of very highly technical DNA evidence. Oh, so the DNA never said it was a match. He – is that where this is going? Can you keep your pants on? Sorry.

Obviously I cannot. So the problem was Brad had no idea what the fuck he was looking at. He didn't know anything about the technical aspects of DNA. Can I make a prediction? Oh, my God. I cannot keep my pants on. Okay, what is it? My prediction is, yes, the DNA was a partial match for Dave.

Dave. But it was also a partial match for, like, 100,000 other people. Okay. Okay, continue. I'll sit here quietly for three seconds oh really so brad has no idea what to do no idea about dna evidence so what'd he do he went somebody analyze it oh he googled it no he went on Amazon.com and he ordered a textbook called Forensic DNA Typing by John M. Butler. And he hauled up in the law office's conference room and he camped. My favorite textbook author.

Just spat. That wasn't even that funny. God damn it. He camped out there for days. He read the textbook. He looked at the 2,500 pages. Textbook, the he read the textbook he looked at the 2500 pages textbook the pages the textbook pages he kept learning and learning and learning i assume he ate a lot of takeout you know yeah oh yeah i'm picturing like a montage yeah in a movie yeah yeah just like it's always the chinese food yeah the containers are just around him everywhere there's also balled up

paper his tie is so loose at one point it's just just off. One point, his balls are out. I'm sorry. No, that's just a different idea. So he kept learning and learning and studying and studying, and he was finally starting to understand some of it. And at this point, he noticed that on some of the graphs, someone had made little handwritten notes on the top of the page. handwritten notes on the top of the page. One note that he saw a few times read, does not match, and a series of numbers. He discovered that those numbers corresponded to the Duke lacrosse players. Yada, yada, yada. Brad discovered that the labs had found between seven and 11 different traces of male DNA on Crystal, and none of it had matched any of the Duke lacrosse players. Oh, my gosh.

Strange that the DA never mentioned this. Yeah. But Brad noticed other things, too. On one of the pages, somebody had written, could be BM, meaning this could be a bunch of shit. That was dumb. Get it? Bowel movement.

We all got it. No, some people didn't get it, and now they are laughing. No, what he thinks this probably means is could be Brian Meehan, who's the lab director. Oh. Contaminated evidence. Right. Yeah. Accidentally, you know.

Yeah. Oops, fudge stripes, as they say in the biz. Yeah. He forgot to put a glove on before he was handling precious DNA. I hate to play favorites, but this guy, Jim Cooney, was one of the defense lawyers, and he was very sassy, and he wore a beautiful yellow tie. And he had a big part in the documentary, and he had a huge smile on his face when he summed this part up. Was it silk? His sassiness?

No. Or the tie? The tie. I don't know. I didn't feel his material, Brandy. Was it kind of shiny? I mean, yeah. Yeah. I bet it was a the tie? The tie. I don't know. I didn't feel his material, Brandy. Was it kind of shiny? I mean, yeah. Yeah.

I bet it was silk tie. All right. Okay, what did he say? Jesus Christ! He said, So a PhD, doing everything he can not to contaminate the DNA, leaves more DNA in the rape kit than the entire Duke lacrosse team put together.

Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Sassy Jim being sassy. Brad isn't quite as sassy as Jim. So he just looked at the camera and he said, I don't think Dr. Meehan was at the party that night. No, I think that's really fucking sad. It was good.

He said it was such a strange thing. I love that. So this DNA stuff was huge. Not only because there was all this other male DNA present, but because Mike Nyfong had maybe possibly tried to cover everything up. Yeah, and it had excluded all of the Duke lacrosse players. Excluded them! What the

hell was going on here? At this point... Prosecutorial misconduct! God damn! You know what? This is why it's so great when you take the wrong tactic. Because you're so, so excited when you're on the right side of it. It's like I just want to burst that damn bubble. At this point, it was time for a scheduling hearing.

And even though these things aren't typically a big deal, this story was huge. So the courtroom was packed. And the attorneys all met with the judge in chambers ahead of time to talk about this shit with all the DNA. And District Attorney Mike Nifong was as innocent and helpful as he could be. He was like, oh, the first I'd ever heard of any issues with the DNA was when I got the defense's motion a few days ago. Bull fucking shit, Nye Fong. Well, that is the first time he got it. And, you know, he told the judge, hey, because of the defense's motion,

I took it upon myself. Nye Fong is always wrong. I took it upon myself to call up my expert, Mr. BM, Brian Behan. And that expert is here today, ready to be questioned. And he said he was at the Duke party. Sassy lawyer Jim couldn't help but tip his hat to Mike Nifong. Looking back, Jim said, it was a brilliant move. We hadn't come prepared to cross-examine a dna expert about

dna we had no idea he was going to be there oh shit so the defense teams all huddled up and most of them wanted to play it safe they wanted to ask the judge for more time but joe cheshire our buddy brad's boss was like smile what like a cheshire cat okay i'm's boss, was like, what? Like a Cheshire cat. Okay, I'm sorry. It took a second. He, you couldn't see him actually. It was just a face in the courtroom. And that was distracting. But hey, what can you do? So Joe was like, no, we have to act now. We've got this momentum. We have to use it. He said, we are going to question him today. And by we, I mean you, Brad. Yeah. And poor baby face Brad freaked the fuck out. Yeah. All the national media was watching him. And yes, he'd studied his ass off with a book he got off

Amazon, but he was totally unprepared to cross-examine a DNA expert. Of course he was. unprepared to cross-examine a DNA expert. Of course he was. He told Joe, I don't want to do that. I can't do that. And he said, yes, you can. Yes, you can. And then the whole lacrosse team was like, we believe in you. That's exactly what happened.

Let me tell you what happened. And they lifted him on their shoulders. You know, I am trying to tell you a story that is very much like a sports movie right here. And you're interrupting me to give me a fake version of a real story. How dare you? Joe said, Brad, I've been telling you for 10 years that you're an exceptional lawyer. You are different. You are a great lawyer and you are prepared to do this. You do know it. You don't need any more time. You can do it and you can do it great and you will do it great. And Brad was just like, oh, just got a pep talk from the head

coach. He's like, oh my God, okay. And he slapped him on the ass. And Brad's balls were still out. So it kind of, like, it did sting. But, you know, you're in the moment. You're moving, you're grooving. You can't complain. So Brad took the lead on cross-examining Dr. Meehan. What? How did it go? I'm so excited! I'm about to tell you!

I'm so excited! It started off slow. And that's how I'll start this off. Yeah. You got to speed it up. I can't handle it. So they went through each one of the electro charts, you know, whatever the fuck, one by one. And Sassy Jim claims that within like 10 or 15 minutes of questioning, it became very clear that, quote, Brad knew what the hell he was talking about. Brad basically took Brian through every sketchy chart and asked him three questions.

Is there multiple male DNA on there? Of course, the answer was yes. Does it not match anyone on the Duke lacrosse team? Which is a confusing way of wording it. That is a very weird way to phrase it. So Brian said, that's correct. And he said, was it not included in your report? Yes.

Oh! Oh! As Joe put it, Brad ate me hand alive. Oh, shit. And the whole time, District Attorney Mike Nifong sat there with one finger over his lips like, I'm so fucked. Mm-hmm. Brad kept asking him,

did you report these discoveries to Mike Nifong? And Brian Meehan was like, yes. Finally, Brad went to Sassy Jim, sweaty, spent, needing some cool water. And Brad was like, Jim, I'm done. I can't go any further. He's like, you got to bring this one home for the team, Brad. Yes, that's exactly what I'm telling you.

And Jim was like, don't worry. I think I can take it from here because I'm sassy. So at this point, Jim stands up and he asks Brian Meehan, have you entered into an intentional agreement with a representative of the state of North Carolina not to report all of the test results? Yes. So Meehan shifts in the witness stand. And he kind of like makes awkward eye contact with Nifong. Looks like he's holding back a snart, which I know you know all about. It's too painful. Don't bring it up.

I'm going to read you his direct quote because I think it is bonkers. Okay. What does he say? Tell me. There's only one answer to this question. And that answer being yes, to this question and that answer being yes because we did not report the reference profiles of those specimens and we did talk about not reporting those. Okay, so you said way too many words there.

The answer is yes. The answer is yes. Yes. I sure did. I absolutely did. I'm shady as hell. Yes. The courtroom erupted in applause.

Ooh. They put erupted in applause. Ooh. They put bread on their shoulders. You know, yeah, I see you got, it was too early for that. Okay. Judge Smith, who has a mustache like a push broom, sat there for a second. You're picturing it. The footage of this judge was wild. Because, you know, judges, they be judging.

They're just kind of like sitting there. Judges be judging. And he looked so fucking pissed. Yeah. Like, what the hell have I just witnessed? Yeah. District Attorney Mike Nifong, it brings me no pleasure to tell you, was in deep shit. Yeah.

This case was taken away from him. And in April of 2007, Attorney General Roy Cooper announced that they were dismissing all charges against Reed, Dave, and Collin. Yeah. He even went the extra step to say, we believe that these three individuals are innocent of all charges. Yeah. Which they don't normally. No, they don't.

They're just like quietly dismiss stuff and like are never like, oh, turns out we were actually really wrong about that. That's our bad. They don't ever say that. They do if you have money. Yeah, that's true. And the creamy white skin. Yeah.

Creamy. That sounded very creamy. Creamy white skin. They should call it creamy white privilege. Yeah. Creamy. That sounded very creamy. Creamy white skin. They should call it creamy white privilege. Yes. No, because then white people would get even more defensive. I don't have that! I'm not creamy at all!

Very watered down. Very watered down. He also referred to Mike Nifong as a rogue prosecutor. And the whole crowd said, On June 15th, 2007, the North Carolina State Bar held a hearing to determine whether Mike Nifong should be disbarred. And they were like, we will take that law license now. Get the fuck out. He was questioned. And at one point, one of the questioners listened to Mike's bullshit answer and literally did

the thing where you rub the heels of your palms against your eyes like, oh, my God, dude. Ultimately, Mike was disbarred. And he tried to be like, oh, yes, I resign effectivebarred. Yeah. And he tried to be like, oh, yes, I resign. Effective a month from now. And a judge was like, no, you're done immediately. Disbarred you.

Goodbye. Later, at a contempt of court hearing on August 31st, 2007, Mike Nifong was found guilty of criminal contempt for willfully making false statements to a judge about the disclosure of DNA test results. He received one day in jail. Oh, great. Too harsh? I agree. I can't believe this is his only punishment. One day?

One day. And he loses his license, which, like, of course you do. Of course you do. Where are they now? So the story around Crystal Mangum is complicated. A lot of people believe she was used as a pawn in this whole thing. I think that's very likely. I think so, too.

Yeah. At one point, she spoke to the press and said, I am a real person. I have feelings. I'm not just an exotic dancer. I'm not just someone who tried to frame someone who was innocent of sexual assault. My only intentions were for justice, and I wanted justice for myself. In 2010, she was arrested for attempted murder of her boyfriend, Milton Walker, but was convicted of lesser charges. And in 2013, she was found guilty of the second-degree murder

of her boyfriend, Reginald Day. She is currently serving 14 to 18 years in prison. Oh, my gosh. When she was much younger, she—this is a part I didn't write down, but she had filed a police report about gang rape and then recanted it. I think probably this woman had been sexually abused at some point in her life. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's very likely.

Yeah. There's still a lot of controversy around Mike Nifong's previous cases. I know that's shocking to hear. Yeah, no, that's not shocking at all. In 2014, a man named Daryl Howard who had been imprisoned for a double murder for 20 years was granted a new trial based on evidence

that Mike had withheld. And two years later, the murder conviction was thrown out and Daryl Howard was released from prison. And guess who his lawyer was? Who? Sassy Jim. Go Sassy Jim! Yeah, he had a really nice, like, paisley tie on.

Oh, excellent. And of course, the Innocence Project is like, maybe all of this shit should be reviewed? Yeah. And the state is like, It feels like a lot of work, and we might have to, like, pay a bunch of people a bunch of money!

Yeah, can't hear you! Don't want to hear you! Yeah! Bye! In 2014, Sergeant Mark Gottlieb, who supervised the investigation and was found to have been very harsh with Duke students, he actually retired from the force or quit the force in 2008. And in 2014, he died by suicide. He died by suicide. There are a bunch of civil cases tied to the Duke La Crosse scandal, and I'm not going to go into them because I've been talking forever, and you just interrupt me more because it's all so interesting.

A lot of them are out-of-court settlements. It's rumored that Dave, Reid, and Colin received a settlement of $20 million apiece. Wow. That seems insane apiece. Wow. That seems insane to me. Yeah. Also too much. Yeah. This was very bad, but that's – That's a shit ton of money.

Mm-hmm. The families of 38 other lacrosse players also banded together for a civil suit against the university, the city, you know, a bunch of people. And that ended in a out-of-court settlement. And nobody's talking about how much that was. So I'd like to end with something that Dave Evans said to the press. He said, This entire experience has opened my eyes to a tragic world of injustice I never knew existed. If police officers and a district attorney can systematically railroad us with absolutely no evidence whatsoever, I can't imagine what they do to people who do not have the

resources to defend themselves. Yeah. That's the truth. Yeah, absolutely. And that's the story of the Duke La Crosse rape case. Wow. Yeah. I knew nothing about that i i have always felt weird about that one because i so vividly remember like all of us talking about this one and like oh my gosh they're trying to deny it they're covering up and feeling so certain yeah and then it comes out and you go oh shit yeah oh my gosh but yeah it is so upsetting to think about. Like, Mike Nifong was in the DA's office for, like, 30 years. Yeah, he had his hands in a lot of cases. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a problem. Mm-hmm. Fun fact, I think he's the only district attorney in North Carolina history to be disbarred while in office. Oh, okay. Fun. Super fun fact. Also, I think he was part of the prosecution team for Michael Peterson, I think.

Was he? Am I making that up? I don't know. Are you? I might be making it up. I don't know. We'll find out when I cover the case. Yeah, I'm going to go pee now.

Go pee. Go pee and then we'll talk about Jodi Arias. I'm so excited for your story. Are you ready for this? Yeah. Okay. Disclaimer. Okay.

This will be a two-part series. What the fuck? This episode will be six hours long if i cover the entire case today so today i will be covering the murder of travis alexander and next week i will cover the trial of jody arias quick question what gives you the right okay everyone brandy's nervous about doing a two-parter. She's worried you're going to be mad at her. You're obviously not going to be mad. Anyway, this is how it has to be if you want this case. There's too much stuff.

How do my curtain bangs look? They look so good. I'm so excited. My favorite part about you cutting this was like... Look how cute you are. Oh, my God. Everyone, stop it. I'm too cute for podcasting.

Oh, my gosh. Fuck, it's cute. It makes me want... I cannot rock a middle part. Yes, you can. No, my face is way too round. No, Brandy, it's... It's the truth.

Put your finger... No, your look. Yeah, let's see. Okay. Okay, anyway, she just... Okay. I think it would look cute. It looks super modern.

Yeah, and my face looks like a giant balloon. No, it doesn't. I look like Balloon Head. A sexy balloon. It doesn't. You tell yourself horrible things about yourself all the time. That's accurate. Okay, shout outs to ABC News for an article by Gail Duch, Denise Martinez-Ramundo, Jonathan Balthasar, and...

Balthasar, please! And Anjoli Francis. Okay. I believe this article is like a... What? It's like a write-up of like a 2020 episode. Oh, yeah, yeah. I didn't watch the 2020 episode.

I read the article on ABC News. Of course you did. Also, a two-part episode of Snapped. Oh you see even Snapped had to do two parts. That's right. That's right. Articles for AZ Central, Wikipedia and the Huffington Post who had a wonderful timeline of this very complicated case. Okay are you ready? I'm so excited, yes. Do you know, like, this whole, you know all the stuff? I know about

ninjas, if that's what you're asking. No, I don't know much about this at all. Okay. Travis Alexander's friends were starting to worry. It was early June 2008, and they were having trouble getting a hold of him. He was supposed to be heading to Cancun for a trip he had won through work, but his friends and colleagues who had arrived to Mexico already couldn't get a hold of him to nail down what excursions he wanted to book.

So they left him message after message, each one expressing more concern over Travis's failure to return the call. In one, they even joked, you better be dead, man. By June 9th, Travis's friends suspected that something was wrong. The woman he'd been dating, Mimi Hall, who was supposed to accompany him to Cancun, couldn't get in contact with him. She was trying to finalize travel details. They were supposed to leave the next day and she hadn't heard anything from Travis in several days. Collectively, the friends had left him so many messages that his voicemail was full. Yeah, wow. All the calls went unreturned. Then Travis did something he would never do.

He missed a conference call that he was supposed to lead. What did he do for work? We'll get there. I will not keep my pants on. He worked for like a multi-level marketing company selling prepaid legal services. Ew. Yeah. Okay.

It's not great. Oh, so a work conference in Cancun. Yeah. Yeah. Boy, that's how they get you, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So that night, the night of June 9th, a group of several friends decided to go to Travis's.

Do you want to make extra money and be your own hashtag girl boss, Brandy? I want to be an executive. Wow. And I'm going to become an executive by joining Prepaid Legal Services, a company that sells legal services that you prepay for. prepaid legal services that you prepay for. Couldn't they have done something a little sexier like leggings with bees on the crotch?

Or just like a penis that comes straight out from your crotch? Oh, hey, Eiffel Tower. Oh, excuse me. No, it was the Lady Tower pizza. Anyway. Eiffel Tower would be stupid. I would just be dumb.

It's your boy, Skinny Weenie. Everyone. Norm got a new Twitter follower. And the person's name is It's Your Boy Skinny Weenie. And we say that to each other all the time. Thank you, Skinny Weenie. Oh, my God. It's the best Twitter handle I've ever heard.

Yeah. It's wonderful. Yeah. I want Skinny Weenie to be my boy. Yes. Obviously. I'm sorry. Continue your story.

So it's the night of June 9th. Nobody can get a hold of Travis. So they decide they're going to go to his house to track him down. Worst case scenario, they think his roommates will probably be there and maybe they have heard from him. So around 10 30 p.m. they arrived at Travis's home located at. Shut the front door. Okay. 1 1 4 2 8 East Queensborough Avenue. Okay on your. Okay, on your search results, go to the Redfin listing because it has pictures. Ooh, it says price to sell. That's because something horrible happened.

Spoiler alert. Gotta look at that backyard. That yard is bleak. You like dirt? Dirt as far as the eye can see. They couldn't even bother to put the toilet lid down for the picture of the bathroom? Okay, look at the living room picture. There's like shit on the floor.

Okay, but that's better than leaving the toilet lid up. Is it? Oh, man. Okay, cycle through the pictures here and then hold on. Let me get to the correct one here so I can tell you to really like commit it to memory. Gosh, that's a big upstairs. Oh, yeah. This is a very large house.

It's almost 4,000 square feet. Okay, once you get to the narrow tile hallway, stop. You know, there's nothing more grim to me than a blow-up mattress on the floor. I would just take that out personally. I'm going to be honest. I might have blown past the... No, you haven't. Oh, here I see it.

Okay. Yeah, you see an ironing board at the end of the hallway? Yeah. Okay, so we are now in the primary bedroom. This is the bathroom of that bedroom. This long-ass hallway is part of someone's bedroom? Bedroom, yes. This is in the bedroom.

Okay, so that hallway goes down to a bathroom. Okay. But that hallway is off like the big bedroom. And then the next picture is like a walk-in closet. So that walk-in closet, the door is right next to that hallway. You can either access it from the bedroom or from the bathroom. Okay. Okay. Next picture is again of that. And then now we're in the bathroom. This is the primary bathroom. You got a separate shower, separate bath situation. The master en suite. You're not supposed to say master anymore.

Why not? Oh, racist. Yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah, you're supposed to say primary bedroom or main bedroom. Ugh. Yeah. My problem is I've grown up

swimming in this shit. Damn it. Yes. Okay, yeah. All right, all right. Okay, so just commit all of this to memory. I do agree.

This toilet's just wide open and like... Okay, thank you for now being willing to talk about it. Um, all... Every toilet I have seen. Yeah.

Three. Yeah. Has the lid up. Yeah yeah no one wants to see in there yeah okay have you committed that that bedroom bath situation to memory i just hit the whole fucking mic i almost knocked it into my face we haven't podcasted in a minute. I forgot how microphones work. Yes. I'm hibbity floppity. Give me the floppity. Fruity tooty fresh and fruity. That's right. Everyone, I must now tell you something that I did at work yesterday.

Okay. I was at the salon and a regular client come in and she was coming in to get, you know, a color and a trim. And she sat down in my chair and I was like, what are we doing today? Are we mixing it up? Do anything new with the color? And she's like, no, I think I just want my roots touched up. And I was like, absolutely. No problem. Rooty tooty, fresh and fruity. touched up. I was like, absolutely. No problem. Rooty tooty fresh and fruity. Those are actual words that came out of my mouth.

Totally normal things. To my client. And she left that day. Never to return. Okay. Anyway, so the friends show up at Travis Alexander's house. This is a house that he owns, but he shares with roommates. They let themselves in through the garage. And once they were inside, they were greeted by one of Travis's roommates, Zach Billings.

And they were like, hey, have you heard from Travis? And Zach was like, no, he's in Mexico. Oh, shit. And Mimi was like, no, he's not. I'm supposed to be leaving for Mexico with him tomorrow and have been completely unable to get a hold of him. Right. So once the whole group has learned that no one has seen or heard from Travis in several days, including his roommates, the group followed Zach through the house as he led the way to Travis's bedroom, the main bedroom in the house. As they neared the room, they all noted that there was a foul odor in the house that seemed to get stronger

the closer they got to Travis's door. Wait, his roommates had been in this house the whole time? Okay, yes, his roommates had been in this house the whole time? Okay, yes. His roommates had been in the house the whole time. Are they just gross dudes? Well, yeah. It's a bunch of dudes that live there and maybe there's some dishes laying around

and there's probably always some kind of funky smell in there. Okay. So Zach Billings found Travis's key to his door. Apparently he kept his bedroom door locked most of the time he was there. That's probably fairly normal for adult roommates. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

So he opened it. And once he did, all of their worst fears were confirmed. The smell of decay was strong. It was clear that something horrible had happened to Travis. Just inside the door was a large bloodstain on the carpet and the bed had been stripped of its sheets. The only light in the room was coming from the bathroom, which was at the end of that long, narrow, tiled hall. Zach followed a bloody trail down the hall into travis's bathroom and there was blood everywhere it was clear that a brutal and bloody struggle had taken place there

and finally he discovered travis's mutilated body crumpled in the bottom of his shower stall. The friends called 911. Through tears, Mimi Hall told the dispatcher, a friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. The dispatcher asked, how did this happen? Do you have any idea? And Zach told her, no, we have no idea. Everybody's been wondering about him for a few days. After getting the details about the condition of the scene and getting police en route, the dispatcher asked, has he been threatened by anyone recently? To which Mimi quickly responded,

by anyone recently? To which Mimi quickly responded, yes, he has. He has an ex-girlfriend that's been bothering him and her name is Jodi. Jodi Arias. When police responded to the 911 call,

what they found was nothing short of horrific. Travis had been dead for days. He'd been stabbed at least 27 times. His throat had been slit from ear to ear and so deeply that he was nearly decapitated. Oh, my God. And he'd been shot in the head. Wow.

See, I don't remember all this. Yeah. And Travis had put up a hell of a fight. His hands were covered in defensive wounds. This was a clear case of overkill. And it was clear that it was deeply personal. And it was clear that it was deeply personal. A search of the scene turned up several pieces of evidence which would prove to be quite helpful in identifying Travis's killer.

In the bathroom, they found several long, dark hairs and a.25 caliber shell casing. On the wall of the bedroom, they located a bloody handprint. and in the laundry room, they found the biggest piece of evidence. In the washing machine, mixed in with a load of towels and underwear, they found a digital camera. It was identified as belonging to Travis. He had recently purchased it to take on his trip to Mexico. The camera had been through a wash cycle and was water damaged, but the memory card inside was intact. Technicians were able to access the pictures on the card and found them to be of little interest. There was nothing of note there. Rude. But what they did find was a file of recently deleted pictures, but that file had been damaged in the washing machine, you know, apparently. Well, shit. Okay. So it would take a

tech team some time to figure out what had been deleted off of Travis's camera. In the meantime, they started to look into their murder victim, Travis Alexander, and the person whose name had come up as a suspect from the very beginning in the 911 call, Jody Arias. What they learned was that Travis Alexander was a pretty inspiring figure to those who knew him, colleagues and friends alike. Travis was born July 28th, 1977. So he was 30 years old at the time of his death. He was born to Gary and Pamela Alexander, and he was one of eight children. Oh, wow.

Travis had an extremely rough childhood. Both of his parents suffered from addiction and their drug of choice was methamphetamines. The children would often go days without seeing their parents and would have to fend for themselves for food. They often survived just off of ramen or rotten food from the refrigerator. Oh, gosh. When he was 10 years old, Travis went to live with his grandparents. His grandparents took him and his siblings in. And from there, his life really took an upward turn.

His grandparents were members of the LDS church. And soon, Travis became a member as well. And his faith became an important part of his life. By the time he reached adulthood, he was a very active member of the church and a leader in his ward. In addition to being active in his faith, Travis had a very successful career as a salesman and motivational speaker with prepaid legal services, which was a super questionable pyramid scheme. Whoops. I mean, multi-level marketing company.

Yeah, those two things are so different. Totally different. It's a completely different thing. And prepaid legal services is apparently still around today, but now goes by the name Legal Shield. Great. So there's still an opportunity to make money. That's right. You can become your own boss.

Great. So sick of my current work situation. Yeah, your coworker's a bitch. Like current work situation. Yeah, your co-worker's a bitch. So my understanding of prepaid legal services is it's essentially legal insurance. You pay a monthly premium. Oh, my God. Are you serious?

Yeah. And should you need legal services at some point, you have them to some degree. I'm sure it's super helpful. Yeah. Okay, great. It seems like the scammiest scam. That's ever scammed? Yeah.

Yeah. But regardless of my feelings about this MLM, Travis excelled with the company. And by 2006, he had reached the executive level. Okay, but aren't they all called like Diamond Emerald? Yeah, but he's an executive. Yeah, I mean it always sounds good.

It's never like I'm at the shit level. No, I'm at the executive level. Okay. That's how you're required to say it that way. Anyway, I just hit a button and I have no idea where I am on it. Clearly, you're not on the executive level. I'm sorry, on the what? I'm sorry.

Executive level. You know, this is how I know that it's an MLM that has a lot of men in it. Because, you know, the lady ones are are like I'm at the sapphire level yes and I just need three more people to sign up and then

hey girl I'll be a diamond hey hun so anyway I'm looking for awesome babes yeah hot mamas

who wanna So anyway. I'm looking for awesome babes. Yeah. Hot mamas who want to. So in addition to being at the executive level, Travis was also doing speaking gigs at the company's conferences. So he was like a motivational speaker. So he had to have been fairly high up in the company. He was at the company's conferences. So he was like a motivational speaker. So he had to have been fairly high up in the company. He was at the executive level. I set you up for that. No, I mean it. I think if you get to speak at those conferences.

And also he had a really good story. Well, yeah. Rags to riches. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. He was 30 years old and he bought himself this 400,000 square. I'm sorry. God damn. That is something. Also, was he hot? I mean, yes. Okay. Well, that's all. Yes. He was extremely good looking. You always bury the lead. I'm sorry. He looked like every guy that was hot in 2008. He wore... Popped collar. Yeah.

He wore, you know, graphic tees. Uh-huh. And he had like, you know, short spiky hair. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yes, he had a great smile.

Take me away. Yes. Sweet escape. That's right. Uh-huh. So, yes, he was giving these, you know, motivational talks. He was recruiting people.

He was at the executive level. You've mentioned that. And it was actually at PPL. What? As they like to call prepaid legal services. They shouldn't do that. At PPL's annual conference in Las Vegas in September of 2006 that Travis met Jodi Arias for the

first time. Because Travis was at the executive level at PPL, there was this I'm going to jump out the window special fancy dinner he was supposed to attend on one of the nights of the annual conference. What was served? I don't know. Special fancy dinner he was supposed to attend on one of the nights of the annual conference.

What was served? I don't know. Damn it. I don't know. But it was customary to bring a date to the event. And Travis didn't have one. How embarrassing. I know.

How embarrassing. I know. So one night before the dinner, he was talking to his friends and colleagues about his lack of date. And someone suggested that he take the new girl who had just joined the company from California. And Travis was like, OK, give me your number. Oh, wow. So he called up the new girl and asked if she would like to be his date to the executive dinner. And because Travis was kind of a big deal in PPL, the new girl was like, hell yes. And she accepted the invitation.

That new girl was me. Albert Einstein. No, of course it was Jodi Arias Oh my mistake So on the night Of the big dinner Travis waited with a group of friends Where he had agreed to meet Jodi

And when Travis laid eyes on her For the first time He was Awestruck Jodi was the whole package. She was blonde. She was beautiful. She was friendly.

She was funny. I remember her as brunette. Oh, do you? Hmm. Trial makeover? Mm-hmm. Okay. Trial make under.

Oh, yeah, yeah. No. So Jodi had, let me describe to you the look that Jodi had. And it's 2008. All right. It's 2008. Jodi has very groomed eyebrows. As you do.

Yes. Okay. She has a pretty face, but she's not like a lot of makeup. Like it's like, oh, is that a natural beauty? That looks good. Yeah. And then it was clear that she was not a natural blonde because let me tell you what she was doing. She was obviously home coloring her blonde because.

How do you feel about that? She had from about an inch and a half down. Very nice, pretty, buttery blonde. But them roots brassy as fuck. So let me tell you how she was achieving that. She was not getting the Rudy Tootie Fresh. She was not getting the Rudy Tootie Fresh of pretty. That's right.

So what she was doing is each time she was coloring her hair at home with that box color or that color that she bought from Sally Beauty. She was overlapping the previous section. So she would then each time get that brassiness out of the last colored section. But those roots, no hiding that brass. So a lot of times she would wear like a little baseball hat. And then you just see like her cute blonde hair. There's no hiding those roots, Jodi. I see them.

And that's the big crime. And it's grassy as fuck. Could she have used some purple shampoo? Purple shampoo was not going to do it. She needed her hair professionally colored. Could she have prayed to Jesus? No, but let me tell you she's going to try. Okay.

All right. Okay. No. But let me tell you, she's going to try. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. So. What was she wearing at this event? You know, I don't know. Cute little dress. I believe Travis was wearing a pinstripe suit.

Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Yes. So the two go to this very fancy dinner because Travis is at the executive level. I swear to God. That's not even in my notes. I know. I know.

You're just excited. God. And they talked the whole time. Travis was smitten. I thought he was awestruck. He was awestruck when he saw her. He's now smitten. That's the story of me and Norman, too.

Yes. Domestic bliss. Everyone, last night I fell asleep. Fell asleep, passed out. Okay. Last I remember, I was laying on top of the covers and I was watching Abbott Elementary, really laughing it up. Next thing I know, it's morning time. Anyway, Norman said that when he walked into the room, I was snoring on top of the covers.

And it reminded him of the episode of The Office where Michael is like, domestic bliss. I've got domestic bliss. This is what I do it for. And Jan's just like passed out face down on the bed. Anyway, I'm a wonderful woman. So they go to this dinner. They have an amazing time. The next day, Travis told his close friend and colleague, because all of his friends also

work at PPL, Sky Hughes and her husband, Chris, that he and Jodi had stayed up until four o'clock in the morning just talking. It was wonderful. He told them that he had found his wife.

Oh, gosh. That makes me so sad. Jodi was the girl he wanted to marry. Yeah, it's sad. So after the convention, Travis and Jodi stayed in contact. But Jodi lived in California. Travis lived in Arizona. They saw more and more of each other. They traveled together.

Saw each other as often as they could. And Travis told his friends that he was beginning to develop very deep feelings for Jodi. Well, yeah. I mean, kind of started with want to marry her. So, yes. Yeah. I'm beginning to develop deep feelings. Yeah.

He wrote in an email to his friends. Oh, my God. He wrote in an email to his friend Sky. Oh, my God. I went from intrigued by her to interested in her to caring about her deeply to realizing how lucky I would be to have her as part of my life forever. She is amazing. It is not hard to see that whoever scores Jodi, whether it be me or someone else, is going to win the wife lotto. Wow. There was one major problem in this relationship that was growing between Travis and Jodi, though, at this point, they were just friends.

They were not in a relationship. They were just getting to know each other, seeing each other as often as possible. The major problem was that Travis was super involved in his faith. And Jodi was not Mormon. And like that was a deal breaker for Travis. Right. And up to this point, Travis had been a pretty devout Mormon. Is he going to give up Mormonism for her?

Nope. But about a month into their friendship, they started having sex, which is like the number one most important rule in the Mormon faith is that you do not have sex outside of marriage. According to Colleen McDaniel, D-A-N-N-E-L-L. Okay. Yeah.

Who is a professor of religious studies at the University of Utah. She says the laws of chastity are some of the most important laws in the LDS church. For Mormons, sex and sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage are forbidden. She said the law of chastity basically says your body is a sacred space. Your body was given to you by God. It is not yours. It is not just your decision to do with it as you will. Wow. God has given this to you and you must respect it.

Wow. She goes on to say, And Latter-day Saints believe that because marriage is so important and so intense and sexuality is so much a part of that, that you need to preserve those sexual expressions for your spouse. So before you marry and after you marry, you have to keep yourself sexually pure. This is one of the core tenets of the LDS faith. Yeah. Same with Norm's faith because, you know, he signed that dare pledge. That dare pledge. that dare that dare pledge

the dare virginity pledge yeah and being true to his faith was super important to travis but he also really liked banging jody arias well i mean the he's a 30 year old man yeah i'm sorry, but. Yeah. Yes. This is why people get married when they're like 19. Yes. Yes. All right. He liked having sex with Jodi, but he felt really guilty of it. He felt guilty of it? Guilty about it.

Yeah. He felt guilty of it? Guilty about it? Uh-huh. Travis's friend, Dave Hall, said of Travis during this time, he was always incredibly strong in the church, but after meeting Jodi, some of the conversations were about the challenge of morality because of this girl in his life. He confided in his close friends that he believed Jodi to be a nymphomaniac and that he was really battling with what to do with that.

At first, he didn't admit to them that he'd already started having sex with her. So my take on this is that this is a 30-year-old man who doesn't have many sexual experiences, I'm guessing. Yeah. And, like, she probably just, like, liked sex a normal amount. He was like, oh, my God! She's a nympho! Well, also, like, I don't know what kind of women he'd been used to, but, like. He had Mormon girls.

Yeah! I don't know what kind of women he'd been used to, but like. Mormon girls. Yeah. So I think probably just expressing yourself sexually and saying you want to have sex was probably pretty wild. Yeah, he was like, whoa. Yeah, okay. Travis wouldn't even officially say that he was dating Jodi because she wasn't Mormon. So instead. Well, come on. Instead, he sent the missionaries to her house and he read to her from the Book of Mormon

and he shared his faith with her. And in November of 2006, just two months after they met, Jodi converted to the LDS faith. Okay. And Travis was the one to baptize her. So in a show that I watched, someone familiar with Jodi made a comment about like this was not the first time she had done this. This was kind of her MO. When she started dating someone, she got very involved in whatever they were involved in.

I'm sorry. I thought you were saying this was not the first time she converted to Mormon. Not the first. It was the first time she converted to Mormon. Not the first time she took on somebody else's religion, though, to be close to them.

Well, right. Yes. This, like, obsession. You sponge up whatever they are and become exactly what they want. Exactly. Her typical M.O. in a relationship.

Also, like, chastity was, like, super duper important to him, but he gave it up after, like, a month? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it wasn't that important. Also, she was pretty hot and, like, was like, hey. Yeah, I mean, I do. Like, she's sending him text messages like, hey, you make me super wet. I'd love to have sex with you.

Well, no wonder he thinks she's a new foe. Yeah. Poor boy didn't know what to do. You make me so horny. I can't stop thinking about you. Yes, this 30-year-old Mormon doesn't know what to do. He's like, I guess I have to have sex with her. She might die if I don't.

Oh, God. Oh, God. So. He baptized her and following her baptism, the two continued to see each other as regularly as possible. But again, Travis lived in Arizona and Jodi lived in California. Not that far. I mean, it was like a few hour drive. What's a few hours when you're in love?

In love. But they talked constantly over the phone, through emails, through text. In the course of their relationship, they exchanged over 82,000 emails with each other each other wow in like a year and a half it's so many so many emails and of course they continued to have sex pretty regularly though they still weren't officially dating to travis why weren't they officially dating yet? I mean, she's converted, right? Mm-hmm. You ready? Yeah. Okay. To Travis, there was still a major problem with Jodi. Yes, she was now a Mormon. Great. But she wasn't the type of Mormon he wanted to marry. but she wasn't the type of Mormon he wanted to marry.

He wanted to marry a pure virginal girl. So by banging Travis, Jodi had essentially taken herself out of the running for being his wife. But it seems that he never bothered to tell her that. Wow. Yeah, and he just kind of continued having sex with her regularly and then really battled with his guilt about it. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah, that's some creamy, steamy misogyny right there. It sure is.

It sure is. Creamy, steamy misogyny, common trend in the LDS church. Yeah. So there you go. In the LDS church. Yeah. So there you go. Travis admitted to his friends that he was infatuated with Jodi, though.

And in February of 2007, they finally began officially dating. after they began like after they made the relationship official travis's friends uh kind of found her behavior a bit concerning she seemed obsessed with travis there was one so when they were going back and forth from arizona to to California, they'd sometimes meet like in the middle and they had a friend. That friend, Sky Hughes, and her husband, Chris, lived somewhere in the middle. And so a lot of times they'd spend like the weekend at their house. Right. And one night, like the four of them were all out in the hot tub. And like they're in the middle of a conversation.

And like Jodi like climbs on Travis's lap and like straddles him and starts like grinding. Meanwhile Skye and Chris are like right there and it's like a it's a fucking hot tub full of Mormons so this is probably the raciest thing that you've like seen in a minute and Skye said you know I would be scandalized. She was super uncomfortable with it. Well, yeah. She said she was all over him. I mean, like eighth graders whose parents are out of town.

She was straddling his lap and sucking on his neck. Ew. Yeah. Cut it out. Travis was really uncomfortable with it too. He kept pushing her off and he was like, Jodi, get off of me.

What are you doing? And he was like, there's other people. Seemed like everybody was very uncomfortable with this. And this was just kind of like the way things continued. She was like overly affectionate to the point that other people were uncomfortable. She seemed very possessive of him. There was like one night where he had like a group of church friends at his house and they were like all making cookies

in the kitchen and she like kept referring to him as like her man and this would be her house and like just rubbed everybody really weird. Yeah. And they're against rubbing so. Anti-rubbing. And just like kind of that stuff just continued through the course of their relationship like anytime they were they were in a group she was either like sitting on his lap or sitting like

right next to him i'm okay with right next to him but like on his lap when you're with other people yeah it makes me so uncomfortable i hate yeah i Yeah. I don't even like Santa Claus, you know. So. And she hated it if he even like had a conversation with another female. So the fact that one of his very close friends was a female, Sky Hughes, who was married. a female, Sky Hughes, who was married. She was pretty jealous about that

and wanted to know what they talked about all the time. She'd go through his phone and read his emails. She would forward herself emails that he received from other women. Why? Because she needed to keep all the tabs, apparently. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Yeah. So, Travis and to keep all the tabs apparently oh wow yeah yeah so travis and jody's relationship continues they're like a couple months in at this point and as travis's friends got to know her better they were just more and more creeped out by jody's behavior yeah like, Travis would get a phone call and he'd go to, like, you know, excuse himself from the room so he could take the call and she'd follow him so that she could listen. If he'd get up and go to the bathroom, she'd walk and stand outside the door. What? And wait for him to come out. My.

So fucking weird. So fucking weird. Well, I mean, you got to know what's going on in there. No. So one day, Skye and her husband, Chris, are like, we got to talk to him about this. Yeah. This is not a healthy relationship. This is fucking weird.

It's super fucking weird. And so they sat him down and they were like, we're worried. Like, this seems like she could be dangerous. Oh, they thought she could be dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we feel like this could escalate and she could be dangerous. And Travis is like, oh, my gosh, you guys are so silly.

She's great. She's sweet. Things are wonderful. Do not worry. Had he dated much before this? He had dated, but he dated exclusively Mormon girls. And so relationships had not. Had he ever been married before?

No. Okay. So none of those relationships could have advanced too far because surely you would get married. Right. Exactly. Okay. Right. Exactly. Okay. Yeah. So he had very limited dating experience and all of a sudden he's in this thing.

Yeah. This very physical, very intense relationship. Yeah. And he's like, no, no, no. Everything's fine. And they're like, I don't know. This doesn't seem like a normal, healthy relationship. So this conversation that they have with him, it was like one of those weekends when they were staying at their house. And so they pulled him aside.

They have this conversation. And in the middle of this conversation, when he's like brushing them off, he's like, no, I swear everything's fine. Don't worry about it. All of a sudden, Skye was like she heard a noise. Oh, shit. And she was like mouthed to Travis and her husband, Chris, she's standing outside the room. I can feel it. Oh, fuck.

And Travis was like, no fucking way. Only he didn't say fucking. Yeah, of course not. Good Mormon boy. And he didn't believe him. And so he just went over and he opened the door real quick. And she was standing there. And Skye said that Jodi looked at her and gave her the most evil, cold look she had ever seen.

Oh, fuck. She said there was rage in her eyes. And from that point forward, I was frightened of her. forward oh yeah i was frightened of her yeah oh she said she believed that jody could be capable of burning her house down with her in it yeah did travis know that she listened to him taking dumps i don't know okay because i was gonna I was going to say, like, I mean, the fact that she's right outside the door, I would think that wouldn't be super surprising. No, maybe he didn't know she was waiting outside the door every time he went to the bathroom. Like, he's obviously not able to observe that. Yeah.

After five months together, Travis actually broke up with Jodi. He was like, I'm done. This has, like, run its course. You know, it is what it is. Like, it was great, whatever, but it's done. And, like, a couple weeks after Travis broke up with Jodi, she moved to Mesa. Okay. Which is where he lived.

Yeah. Real chill move. And everybody's like, this is not a good sign! No. No. No! From that point forward,

things escalated, and Jodi moved into, like, full-on stalker mode. She would show up at his house, and she had the garage code, so she'd just come in. And then, like, if... It's terrifying. At some point, maybe, I think he and she had the garage code so she'd just come in and then like if at some point maybe I think he managed to change

the garage code and so she broke into his house through the doggy door she crawled in through the doggy door I mean one day he like came out to his living room this is so scary one day he came out to his living room. This is so scary. One day he came out to his living room and found her hiding behind his Christmas tree.

No, stop. Oh my God. No. Yes. This is terrifying. So these times that she would just like show up at his house, sometimes he'd get angry and he'd yell and tell her to leave. And sometimes they'd have sex.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that honestly tracks. Yeah. get angry and he'd yell and tell her to leave and sometimes they'd have sex yeah yeah yeah no that honestly tracks yeah it makes i absolutely it's an abusive relationship so you get sucked in you try to get out yeah this poor guy he just didn't have the life experience no i think that's exactly it is that do you That's my mom calling me. Okay. Because I'm very popular. I know you are. Sometimes my mom calls me.

Sometimes my dad calls me. Sometimes it's my sister. You never know. Sometimes it's you, but you're right here. Possibilities are endless. I said, that's the end. We've hit the end. so this is going on this like active like showing up sometimes he kicks her out sometimes they have sex like is going on meanwhile travis started dating a woman from his church named lisa and

what happened to mimi i thought mimi's oh i'm sorry down the road. We're not to Mimi yet. Well, geez. He's not a player. He just crushed a lot. Okay. So he starts seeing this woman, Lisa, and Jodi is pissed. She slashes Travis's tires. Oh, my God. That's expensive.

Yeah, he drove a BMW, too. You think those tires are cheap? You know how he paid for that BMW? It's because he was at the executive level. See? Even your watch is like, stop it. Sometimes

Jodi would like stop it. She figured out where Lisa lived I guess And she'd like Run up and bang on her doors And windows Just to scare her

And then run off Okay What's Jodi's deal? What does she do for a living? Is she still in the MLM? Yes Uh huh Yeah

So she Prior to joining Prepaid legal services She did like Restaurant work She was a server Andaid legal services, she did, like, restaurant work. She was a server and stuff like that. And she did, like, photography work on the side. That was her dream. She wanted to become a photographer.

But, yeah, at this point, I think she still worked for PPL. Okay. So she was her own boss. So she could hashtag run up to people's windows and bang on them at any hour of the day. Travis couldn't prove that Jodi was the one who'd slashed his tires. Well, but I mean, come on. It was pretty clear. Finally, in April of 2008, at this point, Jodi had lived in Mesa for about eight months

and like had made Travis's life just like a living hell. She finally moved back to California. And this time she moved to Northern California. She moved to Huayrica, which is where her grandparents live. She moved in with her grandparents. And Travis was like, thank God. This is it. I am getting my life back.

It's done. She's gone. Yeah. Black, it's done. She's gone. However, it's not that easy to just cut off relationships like this. Right. So unbeknownst to his friends, Travis was still communicating with Jodi regularly. They would have phone sex.

Occasionally they'd meet up and have actual sex. And he just, like, it wasn't something he was disclosing to his friends. It wasn't anything that they actually learned about until after his death i'm sure he felt a lot of shame and yeah yeah travis's brother steven described his relationship with jody as like she was his kryptonite he didn't like she was his weakness it was like this relationship unlike anything he'd ever experienced and he just didn't know how to end it. At some point along this whole like eight month period where all this had been going on, Travis's friends had actually told him that they were genuinely concerned about Jodi's

behavior, that it was escalating. It was very scary to them. And they told him, Travis, I'm afraid we're going to find you chopped up in her freezer. Oh. Mm-hmm. So now we're back to June 9th. The horrible discovery

of Travis's body has been made. Police have located the evidence of the crime scene and Jodi's name has been made. Police have located the evidence of the crime scene. And Jodi's name has been thrown out as a suspect from like minute one. Right. And just as detectives were about to reach out to her for an interview, she beat them to it. So like less than 24 hours after Travis's body was discovered, she called the detectives to inquire about the case. She was like, hey, you know, I'm Travis's super good friend.

I heard what happened. You know, do you have any updates? Do you need any help? What can I do? How did she hear what happened? So I think it had made the news by this point. Yes. And it had spread through like the PPL network and all of that.

Right. And she knew because she had murdered him. Yes. Okay. That was the big thing. Yeah. Right. Everybody, Brandy just put her finger on her nose and pointed at me so she gets on the phone with like the lead detective on this case his name's esteban flores

and i've always loved the name estes yeah i think it's a great name. Yeah. And she's like, yeah, I talked to him the other day on the phone. I was like on this road trip. I was going to Utah to see my new boyfriend. Oh, yeah. I've totally moved on. I'm totally casual. Yeah, I'm meeting this guy, Ryan Burns. Like, he's like my new boyfriend.

And I went to Utah and I was totally in Utah seeing my new boyfriend, Ryan Burns. He works for PPL. And like he might not be at the executive level. Yeah, but he's totally going to be. He's going places. And so during this like phone conversation, Detective Flores

is like, interesting that you should call me Jodi. Jodi. Jodi is? That's the nickname that he made yeah yeah and uh and she's like oh why is that and he's like well your name has come up a lot yeah because you're a big creepy weirdo in this investigation you know people have said that you're a stalker people have said you know your roots are bad. People have said, you know, you wouldn't. Your roots are bad. They said your roots were brassy as fuck.

And she was like, oh, my gosh, that's totally weird because my hair's brunette now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because she just dyed it. Sometimes you just need to change. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And Jodi's like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe they would say that to me. That's super weird. No, I haven't seen I haven't seen Travis since I moved to Wairika in April.

Wairika? Yeah, that's where she moved. Oh, right. Sorry. It sounded made up. It's a real place in Northern California where her grandparents lived. It all it's all coming back all coming back to me

now. Although, Wyricka does sound like a place in a Dr. Seuss book, right? Absolutely. Alright, thank you. We can move on now. Yeah. She was like, like no i haven't seen him since april that's super weird that people are saying my name like travis and i are just friends we did date but we haven't been together for like more than a year and then we were totally just friends and i'm like super cool with us just being friends and like I'm dating a new guy

I haven't jumped through his dog door in months yeah uh-huh and so she's like you know what what can I do to help I'm do you want my fingerprints you want my DNA I'll give it all to you and they're like sure that'd be great yeah and so you know what, I'm going to be in Mesa for Travis's funeral when I'm there. I'll stop by. I'll stop by police headquarters and give you some samples. and so on june 17 2008 jody did just that she voluntarily went to the mesa police headquarters and she was fingerprinted and she gave a dna sample wow and was very you know open and talked to them and was like yeah no you know travis is a great friend of mine i'm super sad super sad that he's gone i do believe you know with my faith that i'll see him again and you know that's gonna be wonderful but yeah that's it and i wasn't there did she think she'd committed the perfect murder? Is that why she went and volunteered all this?

You know, it's a real mystery. Okay. So they were like, okay, great. Thanks for coming in. And so they sent off those DNA samples because they had a sample to compare it to. They had hair they found at the scene in the bathroom. They also had that bloody handprint. At this point, what they knew is that bloody handprint was a mix of Travis's blood and somebody else's blood.

Well, shit. And so they're like, great. Let's send that off for testing. In the meantime, that tech department had been working on those deleted images and finally they'd repaired the files enough you know i don't know how it works but they'd gotten in there and they'd recovered the pictures i think john M. Butler wrote a book about this. I think that's my favorite textbook writer. Love his work. And what they'd found in those deleted files was shocking.

There were pictures time stamped from June 4th. There was a series of pictures that were taken around 1 o'clock in the afternoon. And those pictures were naked pictures of Jodi Arias and Travis Alexander. It was clear that they had recently had sex. And there were some very graphic pictures. Yeah. Then there was a series of pictures that were time stamped around 5 p.m. And those pictures were of Travis Alexander in the shower.

They were like post pictures of him taking a shower. There was like, you know, a couple like one of his back with him looking over his shoulder and then one of him directly looking at the camera. And then there were like three pictures that appeared to be accidentally taken. And those pictures showed what looked to be like a motion shot of like the camera falling. And then the following shot after that appeared to be a figure laying on the floor, bleeding profusely. And then the last picture was like an accidental shot of Travis Alexander's dead body in the bottom of his shower. So they now had time-stamped pictures of Jody Arias at the scene on the day that Travis Alexander was murdered. On the day that Travis Alexander was murdered.

And they had like an action sequence shot of him being murdered. Yeah. Let me share with you a paragraph from this article from ABC News. I'm not being a dick. I just think that this is overly explanatory. Based on the photos, the screen door, Jodi was lying about not seeing Travis since April of 2008.

Hold on. Hold on. This also seemed to prove that Jodi was the last person to see Travis before his death. Do they think we are dumber than rocks? That's incredible. So armed with this information, they actually travel to Wairika and they sit down with Jodi Arias and they're like, okay. At some point in here, too, DNA evidence comes back. And I'm unsure if that happens before this interrogation or after this interrogation.

All right. But here's what you need to know. The long, dark hairs, DNA match to Jodi Arias. Shut up. The second person's blood in that handprint, Jodi Arias. Okay. So what they're thinking here is that she was there. She was lying about not seeing him.

Right. And she, in fact, had seen him. Yes. Was there at the scene. Wow. Wow. not seeing him. Right. And she, in fact, had seen him. Yes. Was there a scene. Wow. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's what that evidence seems to indicate. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Not jumping to any conclusions here. No, certainly not. Certainly not. And so Detective Flores travels to Wairika and they bring Jodi Arias into the police department and they sit her down in an interrogation room and they're like, okay. Did they really rub their hands together? I think he did.

All right. Yeah. And he was like, tell me about the last time you saw Travis Alexander. And she was like, April 2008. It's the last time I was in Mesa. And so then he pulled out the very suggestive pictures of Jodi Arias that were found on the camera that were time stamped June 4th, one o'clock in the afternoon. He laid them out on the table and he's like, explain these to me. Yeah. And she was like, i don't know what those are what and he's like well these appear to be naked pictures of you and you'll notice here on the

time stamp that they were taken at approximately one o'clock in the afternoon on june 4th uh-huh and she's looking at him. She's like, it does look like me. And he said, no matter what evidence he presented to her, she would just say, last time I saw him was April 2008. That is, you know,

there's committing and then there's committing. That's right. That's amazing. And so they placed her like on a temporary hold that night after this interrogation. And she spent the night in jail. At this point in the investigation, they also learned that like towards the end of May. So Travis was murdered at the beginning of June. Towards the end of May, Jodi had reported that her home that she lived in with her grandparents had been robbed while she was the only one there. And like four things were stolen, like a radio and something else.

Well, one of the items was a.25 caliber handgun, which has never been recovered. Well, because it was stolen. And do you know what type of shell casing was found at the scene where Travis Alexander was shot? 55 caliber. No, 25 caliber. Yeah, and shocking. Like, Jodi was the only one who noticed the robbery. Like, her grandparents were away.

Nobody else could say that, you know, there was. Well, old folks, you know, they let some stuff slip. Farts, memories, whatever. So, okay. So they put her on this know, they let some stuff slip. Farts, memories, whatever. So, okay. So they put her on this temporary hold. She spends the night in jail. And the next night she's like, okay, I'm ready to talk. What?

I'm ready. And they're like, okay, what's up? And she said, I've been lying to you. No shit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I was at Travis's house on June 4th. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I got there about 3 o'clock in the morning. We slept. We had sex. We took some pictures. And then he took a shower. Mm-hmm. And while he was in the shower, I heard something. And turned and there were two masked intruders standing there in Travis's bathroom and they killed him. Wow. And they one of them was a man. One of them was a woman.

And they told me to get out of there. They said, leave or we'll kill your family. And so that's what I did. I left and I've never told anyone that story. Yeah, it does seem like a fresh one. Mm-hmm. Huh. Mm-hmm. yeah it does seem like a fresh one um huh so i think that detective flores needed like this to like process a little bit so at some point he like left the interrogation room and jody did some really weird fucking shit while he was gone

what'd she do she got up and she did a handstand. Oh, yes. Okay. She did a handstand. She sang a Dido song. Which one? I can't remember. I didn't write it down. Is it the one that...

Yeah, probably. I do what I want. Yes. I kill to this. Okay, yeah. I do what I want. Yes. I kill to this. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Uh-huh. She talked to herself.

She said, gosh, Jodi, you could at least put yourself together a little bit before you came in here. Yeah, because that's the worst part. She dug through the trash, searching for, you know, just whatever might be in there. Bacon egg basket. I mean, only bears go through the trash searching for you know just whatever might be in there picnic basket i mean only bears go through the trash right yeah all right so then at some point you know detective flores came back in he's like okay tell me the story one more time and she's you know they were ninjas and they wait when did they become ninjas um they didn't become ninjas until later. She did a 48 hours interview following her arrest. And that's when they became ninjas. That's when they became ninjas. Cool.

Yeah. Okay. That's the first time the public learned about this version of events. You mean the truth? Oh, excuse me. Asshole. Yeah. So he's like, okay.

This story is amazing. Mm-hmm. So Detective flores is like okay so two masked intruders dressed in all black came in they attacked travis they brutally murdered him and you let you go uninjured and she's like yes they told me to leave he's like, yes, they told me to leave. He's like, why didn't they kill you? And she said, they weren't there for me. And he's like, okay. And so you left there knowing that your friend was gravely injured. And you just did just. Did nothing. Did nothing.

She was like, yeah, I was really scared. They said they'd kill my family. And I was like, that's the story you want to stick with? She was like, that is the truth. She said, no, I'm going to add some stuff. Because I need a little bit more time. I'm coming up with this on the fly here. Have you ever improv'd your way through anything, sir?

And so then at that point, Detective Flores told Jodi that they did not believe her story and that she was going to be placed under arrest for under the suspicion of murder of Travis Alexander.

And she said... I am still stuck on the... I mean, I got a hat tip to her. You're confronted with a naked photo of yourself. You're like, no. You're like, no. It does look kind of like me. She is hot.

I'll grant you that. I will grant you that. Her ass will not quit. I can see why you would be confused, sir. So at this point, Jodi is made aware that they do not believe her story and that she will be being placed under arrest on the suspicion of murder and her response is okay can i at least put some makeup on before they book me i mean relatable i agree so at that point jen Jenny was taken into custody.

She was extradited to... Do people make a big deal about the makeup comment? I know they do. Absolutely, they do. I can't say I might not say the same thing. Just a touch of eyeliner, maybe a little bit of blush. Can you do anything to help a girl out?

Yeah. Like, I know my picture's gonna be out there. Because I have just said some crazy shit and i don't know if you guys saw but i did a fucking handstand in here and so she was placed under arrest she was then extradited to arizona and on june 9th, which was Jodi's 29th birthday. Wait, did she get to put on makeup? No. She did like one of those like, you know, pinch your cheeks and stuff and like ruffle

their hair a bit. Yeah. I mean, do what you can. All right. That's right. So on July 9th, 2008, Jodi's 29th birthday, a grand jury handed down an indictment for first degree murder. On September 11th, 2008, she entered a plea of not guilty. And on Halloween, the state announced that they would seek the death penalty.

Spooky. And that's where we're going to leave it for this week. Oh, that was so good. Next week, we will cover the trial and the aftermath. God, she sucks. Oh, my gosh. May I look up pictures of Travis? Absolutely.

I will warn you, it's not going to come up in a Google search, but his crime scene photos are very easily accessible on the... Oh, he was so cute. So handsome. Gosh, he looks miserable in this photo with her that I'm pulling up. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, yeah, he got, like, in this relationship and didn't know how to handle these this really intense relationship unlike anything that he'd experienced yeah before and also jody was super manipulative well yeah no she's an abuser. Absolutely. I mean, he's a victim of terrible abuse.

You're going to love her defense. Oh, great. That she was abused? Yep. Cool. More on that next week! You know, I got to say, she looks better as a brunette. She looks way better as a brunette.

You see what I mean about the blonde? Yeah. It's, here's my problem. I mean, obviously you're obsessed with the roots. My thing is like, her skin color is the exact same color as her hair. Yeah. Need some contrast in there. Absolutely.

Break that shit up. Yeah. She looks much better as a brunette. Whew. Well, I cannot wait for next week. Yeah. The trial is nuts. Let me give you a little teaser.

Give me a little taste. Jodi takes the stand in her own defense and spends 18 days there. Shut up. So the cross-examination was just like forever, huh? Like, oh, okay, you're going to get up here? All right, here we go. Here we go. Oh, delicious.

Also, here's a little fun tidbit to look forward to. Okay. Arizona is one of like only two days. Two days? One of two states where the jury is allowed to ask questions of the defendant. Oh my god, yes. Is Florida the other one?

I'm not sure what the other one is. What's the other day? Sunday? Stop it! That was amazing. Jodi Ari arias part one check i loved it oh so fun i was so anxious about doing this but i okay you know i've told you i'm so anxious about doing this case it's too big it's too much i was too into it when it happened let me tell you researching it this is gonna sound terrible i fucking loved it and it was like i was hanging out with my old friends that is terrible i know

well you're a fucked up person but i'm glad to have you as a friend should we take some questions from the discord? Yes, we should. On this ridiculously long episode. Oh, my Lord. Yeah, it's so funny. Like, oh, sorry, people. We have to do a two-parter and we're already at like three hours. Oh. What?

Tell people how to get in the Discord. Oh, shit. Damn it. We didn't even have an ad. We could have plugged the Patreon. No, we have a Patreon. You should join it if you want to and you want to support the show. If you don't, that's cool. But if you do want to do it. We didn't even have an ad. We could have plugged the Patreon. No, we have a Patreon. You should join it if you want to and you want to support the show. If you don't, that's cool.

But if you do want to do it. It's not cool. We will send ninjas after you. That's terrible. That's not good. And also not ever happening to anybody. Not accurate. So don't worry about it.

No, if you want more of us. And I mean, hey, we're back from break. So calm down. But we also have monthly bonus episodes on the Patreon at the $5 level or higher. Join now and binge like 26 of those puppies. 31. Binge 31 of those puppies. You can go higher if you want to.

You can get ad-free episodes if you enjoyed this. Yeah, did you like this taste of what the ad-free lifestyle could be? Welcome to Teasers Gentleman's Club. Welcome to Balls Out, where we just give you a little taste of the balls. That's their slogan. No one will ever go. I like how you distance yourself. That's their slogan.

This is not my quote. Listen, you are the founder and CEO of Balls Out Brandy. You don't get to say, oh, that's their, what? I mean, I didn't come up with it or anything. Okay, so yeah, now we're taking questions from our Discord where people chitty chat the day away. And to get in the Discord, you just have to join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. There you go. High Priestess of Costco wants to know Discord, you just have to join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. There you go. High Priestess of Costco wants to know, have you ever been to a bar mitzvah?

I have not. And I think I would love it. Why do you think you would love it? It looks like an amazing, fun party. And like, there's dancing, probably delicious food. Yeah. Lots of 13-year-olds. I realized it as I got into that, I'm a 35-year-old woman saying I want to go to apartments.

Don't worry. It's not creepy at all. Everyone, she's just a grown woman who loves to hang out around teenage boys. No, I haven't been to one either. And weirdly, I'm not excited to go. Sharts in my eyes. How much did you miss us? A lot.

So much. We had a lot of fun with our time off. Yes. It was great to have a break. And I think it's super important to keep the show good and the content fresh. But, yeah, we missed you guys a lot. Well, I was so excited for you to come over today. Yes.

I was so excited. Yeah. And we had a bunch of really good Italian food. It's funny. For the bonus episode, we talked about, talked about how we spent our time off. And I don't feel like rehashing it. No, if you want to hear it, listen to the bonus episode. Yeah, yeah.

MC93 wants to know, did Brandy ever get the Glossier perfume? Have been binging all old episodes. I did. David got it for me for Mother's Day, just as I gave him the subliminal message to do. And I actually just finished it up and need to get it again because I loved it so much. Man. Such a good smell. Okay.

Tweety Titty Tattoo wants to know, what's something you insist on getting the name brand of or the highest quality of versus going with the cheaper version. Alright. I think we've talked about my answer to this on the podcast before but it is toilet paper. Yeah you're a total snob. I am a toilet paper snob. I was forced to use

like the store brand during the toilet paper shortage of 2020 and it was then that I learned that I am like the store brand during the toilet paper shortage of 2020. And it was then that I learned that I am a toilet paper snob. Okay, I'm snobby about two things. Well, probably more than two, but two come to mind. You cannot do off-brand Q-tips. Oh, no, they just, yeah, they're terrible.

They're terrible. Okay, off-brand. Yeah, you ever had just the cotton slide right off the end i sure have infuriating so that can't do yeah also off-brand pop tarts oh yeah they are just not very good yeah i agree toast them no thank you yeah i i got some from Aldi. And I was like, what the hell? What the fuck is this? Winston the Corgi said, so my husband made dinner last night and he made barbecue chicken with cheese. Asking for a friend, is there room for him next to Norm? Barbecue doesn't belong with cheese. Chicken doesn't belong with cheese. That's belong with cheese that's a that's a no chicken and cheese double baddie to me double baddie yeah what chicken and cheese do you like

you like chicken with cheese on it yeah i would totally eat that the face you're making like a chicken sandwich with cheese oh no grilled chicken no get the fuck out of here like grilled chicken on a salad that has cheese on it? Oh, no. Grilled chicken? No, get the fuck out of here. Or like grilled chicken on a salad that has cheese on it? Absolutely. I would do that. Like shredded cheese on the salad and then chicken on top. The chicken and the cheese aren't necessarily like touching and the cheese isn't like melted atop the chicken. Sorry.

Okay. These are your demands that's right lgtc pun wants to know are there any fashion trends that make you cringe when you see them out in the world what would you not be caught dead wearing i have one right now and they're so popular what is it mom jeans oh yeah you hate mom jeans. I don't. I can't do it. And even when I see them, I'm like, I don't know, is that the look? I think people look cute in mom jeans. I'm not here for the mom jeans.

Okay. I don't think there's anything that I could say I wouldn't be caught dead wearing. Yeah. Yeah. You and I are very opposites in this regard yeah like yeah i think i'd try anything full latex suit oh god that seems so no i pee too much yeah it sounds terrible yeah and the zippers in the back of course it is yeah is. It's got one of those really long tabbies on it, like a scuba suit, so you can do it yourself. But, I mean, once you take it down once, you've got to baby powder up or you're not getting that thing back up. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, something like that that's, like, impractical and terrible, yeah, I wouldn't do that. I don't necessarily think that's, like, trendy. Yeah. I don't know. Didn't Kim Kardashian wear, like, yeah. like yeah okay all right i know what i'm talking about yeah you sure do congratulations clark adventures 94 once now uh i need book recommendations and i feel like kristin and i would have similar tastes you got any book recommendations what have you been reading lately a Shut up. A new book by your favorite author?

Okay, everybody. Hold on. First I have to figure out which author I thought it was because I want to give her. Yes. Okay. Here's the deal, everyone. I am a big fan of the author Taylor Jenkins Reid. Read a bunch of her books.

Really like them. I always get super into them. And I don't know. I read things on Kindle. I always have a bunch of holds going at the library. All of a sudden, new book by Taylor Jenkins Reid pops onto my Kindle. I'm so excited to start reading it. I got really into it at first, and then, you know, it was just like, God, what?

Is something going to happen in this book? Like, gosh. But I just kept going because she's such a good writer, and I've liked everything else I've read by her. And I was just like, man, this is really a slog, but all right, whatever. So I read the whole damn thing. And then I hit home on my Kindle and I realized that it wasn't a book by Taylor Jenkins Reid. It was just somebody else. And I'd been confused the whole time. And I'm not one of these people who's like, I started a book, so I'm going to punish myself and finish it. No, if it sucks, I'd stop.

So anyway. You owed it to your favorite author. Well, I thought she has never disappointed me. So this started strong. It's getting a little slow. She's obviously going to pick it up again. And then I'm like at 86%.

Like, what the fuck, Taylor? Well, Taylor didn't do it to me oh so I would recommend you read Daisy Jones and the Six which I really liked also The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo really liked that too I just finished The Group by

something Tate let me look that one up. I think it was Mike Taint. Stop it. You're terrible. Christy Tate, not Mike Taint. Yeah, group. Group is really good too.

Okay, anyway. Oh, what's that other one I like? I Think You Should Talk to Somebody by Lori Gottlieb? Question mark. Lori Gottlieb. That's the one. You look really bored with all this talk of books. I like books. I once read a book.

I just finished The Chain by somebody. No, not Fleetwood Mac. The book. The book. The book. Adrian McKinty. All right. It was a delightful read.

A bit of a thriller. Oh, it says it's an intense, dark, psychological thriller. That's correct. That describes it well. What? What? I was going to say something about it, but I thought maybe it was kind of rude. Say it to me and we'll cut it.

I hate that in a thriller. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It'd be funny if we had Patty bleep that. We should.

Okay. Patty, do your thing, honey. Philosophically correct wants to know what are your perfect dates? I'd say April 25th because it's not too hot and not too cold and all you need is a light jacket you're not even gonna acknowledge me no no that is your punishment. Annie O wants to know, are you getting excited for the Winter Olympics?

No, she's not. I am so excited. And it feels like we just had the Summer Olympics and they were so delayed. It's like we barely had to wait for more Olympics. What sport are you most looking forward to? Oh, my gosh. Figure skating. Yes, please. Ski jumping.

Snowboarding. Sean White's going to compete in his fifth Olympics. Fifth Olympics. I do think that's really cool when people are like, make a career out of being in the Olympics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. It's a fucking amazing. So yeah, I'm feeling okay about the Olympics. Oh, Asteroid B612 wants to know, I've recently decided to start creative work on the side of my full-time job. Any advice for starting passion projects and not getting discouraged?

Obviously, it's worked well for you, too. I mean, it has. We started this thing four years ago. Four years ago. Can you believe it? Four more years. Sorry. this thing four years ago. Four years ago. Can you believe it? Four more years. Sorry. Just campaigning.

Felt very Trumpy. Did it? Yeah. Oh. Okay. Well, gosh, what advice do we have to bestow? I mean, it would depend on what the creative endeavor is. Yeah.

I think if it is a passion product, as long as you keep your passion in mind, like, it will be rewarding to you. Like, this was something that we kind of just started on a whim, but because it allowed this, like, amazing time for us to just, like, hang out and be friends. Yeah. It has, like like that was enough exactly yes I think it's the not worrying so much about the outcome yeah which is ridiculous coming from me because I'm someone who's always worried about the absolutely yes but like we got from the fulfillment from this from day one yes and that And that's huge. And everything else has just been wonderful. Yeah. I think if it's something that sucks more like writing a book, work on it a

little bit every day. Yeah. So you keep your head in it. And yeah, I feel like i'd recommend that for just about anything yeah work on it a little bit every day yeah absolutely god are you dying of heat it's so i think we gotta wrap this up because it's way too hot in this room oh fudge okay whoa nelly we've been talking for a while here yes we have this has been a marathon of an episode. Supreme Court Induction sort of thing that we do on this podcast. Darn right. Hey, I've got mine pulled up right here. Ready, tootie, fresh and free.

And we are reading your names and your favorite cookies. And I am getting to the place on the document where we read the names. She's not stalling at all. Not at all. Okay, here we go. Caitlin Geyer. Pumpkin Snickerdoodles. Danny Perez. Crumble Pink Frosted Sugar Cookies.

Good, I've had that one. Laura Lake. Snickerdoodle. Tanya Payne. Chocolate chip cookie dough straight out of the tube. My dad used to eat it out of the tube. I remember that when I was a kid. Like when you lay back on the couch? Because that's how I picture

somebody doing it. Yeah. Squeeze it out and then you twist the thingy back and you put it back in the... That's the good life right there. Yeah, absolutely. Miriam. Macadamia nuts. Lori. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Kim Wiseman. Miriam. Macadamia nuts. Lori. Oatmeal chocolate chip. Kim Wiseman.

Peanut butter. Elena Branch. My Nana's biscuits. Ashley Harvey. Not into cookies. My favorite sweets are my homemade gingerbread cupcakes. Hmm. Kind of breaking the rules there.

Mm-hmm. Sarah Ward. Confetti sweets coconut oatmeal cookies. That's probably good. That sounds like a lot. It does sound like a lot. I'll allow it, though. Asia.

Pepperidge Farm Verona cookies. Sydney. Sugar cookie from Crumble. Bonnie Rose Crump. Lemon meringue cookies. Oh, God, that sounds amazing. I know Rose Crump. Lemon meringue cookies. Oh, God, that sounds amazing. I know. Kathy Rodriguez.

Samoas. And Charlotte Mashalin. Triple chocolate chocolate chip cookie with macadamia nuts. Oh, shit. That's a lot. Wendy. Oh, she's telling me how to say pecan. No, she wants you to say pecan. Pecan pralines.

All right. You know what's funny is pecan, I feel like is the more, what more sophisticated people say, but pecan sounds trashier. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Cher Caldaria. Chocolate macaroon.

Macaroon, not macaron. Yeah, a macaroon. It's a coconut cookie and then it's got chocolate on the bottom. It's like a not macaron. Yeah, a macaroon. It's a coconut cookie and it's got chocolate on the bottom. It's like a little dip. Yeah. Danny Jaramillo. Underbaked sugar cookies. Kelsey Fuertes.

Classic chocolate chip. Mr. Sue. Chocolate chip. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Episode 200. Holy shit. Thank you to everyone who's been along for the ride. This is crazy.

Looks like we made it. And you guys asked for that. That's right. That was a written request. Can't seem to find it right now. But it's very real. Thank you for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social

media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon, of course. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts

on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned! Well, actually, not a new topic for you. Not for me. I'm in the same topic. Hibbity-habbity? Yeah.

Yeah. That's right. Rooty-tooty, fresh and pretty. That's right. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the 30 for 30 episode, Fantastic Lies, as well as portions of the book, The Price of Silence by William D. Cohen, plus Wikipedia. I got my info from Snapped, ABC News, Murderpedia, Wikipedia. Articles for AZ Central and the Huffington Post. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go. Read read their stuff.