Let's Go To Court! - 204: Wells Fargo Robbery & a Mysterious Illness

Episode Date: March 2, 2022

It’s tough to rob an armored car. But on November 28, 1994, a group of men did exactly that. Their crime was brazen. They took control of the vehicle in a mall parking lot, in broad daylight. They exercised unnecessary violence, too. They shot the Wells Fargo van driver, John Magoch, in the head and left him slumped over in the front seat. When the armored car was discovered abandoned in a church parking lot a few hours later, the money — and the criminals — were long gone.   Then Brandi tells us about a mysterious illness. Janet Overton hadn’t been feeling well. She turned to doctors for answers, but couldn’t get any. Whatever plagued her was tough to identify. And then, one day, Janet collapsed in her driveway. The 46-year-old woman, who’d been healthy until recently, was now dead. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Wells Fargo Heist” episode of American Justice “Convict says manhunter framed him” by Dennis Wagner for the Arizona Republic “New questions in  ‘94 armored-car murder,” by Michael Kiefer for the Arizona Republic “Ring v. Arizona,” Oyez.org “Timothy Stuart Ring,” Murderpedia.org “Former Falls resident still denies role in murder,” by Bob Dyer for the Akron Beacon Journal “Three arrested in slaying in armored car heist,” by Richard Robertson and Susan Leonard for the Arizona Republic In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Janet Overton” chillingcrimes.com “A Slow Death” episode The Real Murders of Orange County “Every morning, Janet Overton applied eyeliner. It was slowly killing her.” By Helen Vnuk, MamaMia “O.C. man convicted of fatally poisoning his wife” by Rong-Gong Lin II, Los Angeles Times YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a Wells Fargo robbery. And I'll be talking about a mysterious illness.

Is it mysterious? Yeah. Or did her husband get her? Oh, did she? That was a mystery. A real mystery. Is this just all heists all the time from you now? You know what?

I will not take your shit. Did you watch another episode of Super Heist? No. Okay. No, but it... I don't even know what to say. What does that mean? This case has fucked with my head.

Oh. Are you thinking about pulling off a high zero now? No. I literally could not sleep last night. Really? You were thinking about your case? Yes. I got so excited.

Oh, my gosh. I slept on the couch as if Norm and I were having problems. You slept on the couch? Yeah. And then Norm, like, didn't care, so he just invited the dogs up into the bed. He's like, well, I'm gonna sleep with someone! Two bitches at the same damn time! Yeah, he did not seem real worried.

You really slept on the couch? Brandy, when I tell you this case... Am I going to sleep on the couch tonight? Perhaps. That's my goal. My goal is that all of you will sleep on your couches tonight. Let's talk about your homework from last week. What was it? Oh.

I did. To watch a little film entitled Masterminds. Yes, award-winning film. I don't think it's won any awards maybe a razzie i really did like it i know it's so funny um okay so here's the most embarrassing part you told me the fart transplant joke yes last week on the podcast before I watched the movie. I watched the movie. I still laughed at the fart transplant joke. And Norman looked at me. He was like, how are you laughing at that? And I did feel ashamed.

My favorite part, and I didn't want to tell you this because I didn't want to spoil anything, is when Zach Galifianakis' character shows up late for that engagement shoot. And Jandice is like, I've been crying all day. I've reapplied my makeup three times. And Zach Galifianakis goes, well, dang, Jandice, third time's a charm. You look great. And you liked it because you don't wipe off your makeup at night. That's right.

You just reapply, reapply, reapply. I'll have you know I wash my face every morning. But not at night, you weirdo. No, not at night. I'm so freaking jealous. I'm over here with my face acne and my butt acne stop it I do have butt acne

butt-ny, ass-ny that's rude I think it should be called ass-ny feels like a hate crime when you say it maybe I have ass-ny and I'm just not aware of it no you don't, you definitely don't I mean if you can sleep in your makeup and look like that every day.

I got a little zit this week. I think it's gone now. Everyone, let the record reflect that she is pointing to a patch of clear, poreless skin. Pretending she once had a pimple. I did. I did have a pimple. Oh, I was once like you. You ready for this jelly?

I don't think I'm ready for this case. I am ready. What? I was just... Well, we just quoted Beyonce. And I was just thinking about telling you a story that like – so my dad like for his entire life has sung like three songs on repeat and like not the entire songs. Like just like – OK. Well, one of them is Single Ladies.

And all he knows from the song is, oh, Single Ladies, oh, Single Ladies. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. OK. That's all he knows. single ladies. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. Okay, that's all he knows. And I said to my mom the other day, how often does he sing single ladies?

Because, I mean, it feels like a lot. She texted me the other day, along with my sister, and was like, hey, I can't remember which one of you asked me how often he sings Beyonce, but just so you know, he's in the shower right now singing Single Ladies. I said, never text me about my father being in the shower again. Okay. I love that, and I'll tell you why. Why? Because I would have guessed that he only knew a small portion of Single ladies because he was singing it for the lulz, right? But if he's singing it in the shower, he's singing it for Daryl and nobody but Daryl.

Dance like no one's watching, if you will. Nope, he does it all the time. He's like in the kitchen making hot chocolate. He's like in the kitchen making hot chocolate. And I know he hasn't heard the full song in like years. Anyway, that's something you all needed to hear. Oh, shit. We got to plug our Patreon.

Oh, yes. You know what? We've got a hot new bonus episode where we talked about. Oh, my God. We just recorded it a day and a half ago. A day and a half ago. Oh, my God. Someone went and whacked me. I talked about a ninja arsonist murderer.

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Where you can listen to that new bonus episode and 31 others. I just had a great idea. What? Can you imagine? We're not offering this, so please no one ask for it. But like, can you imagine if we offered like a ringtone where it was just my dad singing single ladies? So many people would love that. He's just like, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot.

The single deepies. Oh, the single deepies. Grinder would like grind to a halt. Am I right? Anyway, sign up for our Patreon. Yeah, that's the gist. Bonus episodes, all that good stuff and more. And more bonus episodes and more, including but not limited to a sticker, a card with our autographs in it, a monthly Zoom hangout. And more.

All right. Yeah. Will we tell you more? No, we will not. That's it. To get the goods, you got to head on over to patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. Brandi, how do you feel about the fact that I'm dressed exactly like you? It's feeling a little, what's that movie? Single White Female.

I am literally dressed exactly like me. Yeah. I've got a black off-the-shoulder number. You look super cute. That's egotistical of you to say. Okay, but you've got the super cute bangs going on. You've got a very cute pony. I wouldn't wear gold hoops, so you've styled it your own way.

That's true. I added one thing that makes it me. That's right. And the rest is all you. No, I put on this outfit. I was like, I look so cute. I also look like I'm trying to be brainy. And it's true.

Oh, look, I'm looking at myself in the mirror. Oh, sexy. Okay, anyway, shoutouts to the Wells Fargo Heist episode of American Justice. Oh, okay. It's a real serious program. This first

part is basically a retelling of that episode, but also shoutouts to Michael Kiefer and Dennis Wagner for their reporting in the Arizona Republic. Kiefer. Smoking weed!

That was a deep cut. If you understand that reference, you are very cool. Janelle! You understand that reference. You are very cool. Chanel. Chanel. Picture it. This is why we're friends. We're in sunny Phoenix, Arizona.

The date is November 28th, 1994. The date is November 28th, 1994. And Wells Fargo driver John Magosh and his messenger David Moss were doing their daily rounds. Oh, my gosh. God. It was the same old, same old, Brady. They went around picking up cash from businesses and bringing it to the bank. They went around picking up cash from businesses and bringing it to the bank. As the driver, John drove the vehicle.

And as the messenger, David got out, got the money, and brought it back to the armored car. And that's the way that works. So quit asking questions. Everybody clear? John was in a pretty good mood that day. He was pretty much always in a good mood. His friend Harold Hart, was it Head Workers? God, which is the name of a strip club?

Just kidding. No. What I'm trying to say. Was he at the headquarters? Yes. Oh, my God! Oh! Everyone, we had two margaritas at lunch. By the way, that's the new name for sex workers.

Headworkers. Headworkers. Yes. Harold radioed in and said, hey, John, what are you doing? Harold radioed in and said, hey, John, what are you doing? And John, who had a pretty solid Humphrey Bogart impression, said, I'm just sitting here, sweetheart. Really? Yeah, get it?

Because Harold's last name is Hart. Oh, yeah. Everyone laughed because the bar for what's considered funny is very low at work. Yeah, it's accurate. So John and David cruised around town and at around 1.30 p.m. they pulled up to the Dillard's at Arrowhead Mall in Glendale. You looked really excited. You like a Dillard's, do you? I enjoy a Dillard's.

I like a mall. By this point, they had a little over 500K in the van. Oh, that's not that much. Yeah. I mean, like last week I told about someone who pulled off a heist for 17.3 million. Yeah. Yeah. So this –

Seems like small potatoes. It sure does. OK. Seems like small potatoes. It sure does. Okay. But anyway, David got out of the van to go do the pickup, and five minutes later he came back outside to find nothing. The van was gone.

Obviously, this was huge news. What about Oshkosh Bogosh? Where was he? All right. He was missing, Brandi. Oh, okay. And everyone said, oh, my gosh. Yeah, an armored van was missing, and so was the driver. For hours, the van remained missing.

But then that evening, someone was heading into church, and they spotted the armored white van in their church parking lot. What was it doing there? It was still running. Was some, was, sorry. You're afraid that I'm going to tell you to keep your pants on. I am. I got nervous.

What? Is Mr. Magosh inside of it? His body is. Oh, no. His body was slumped over in the floorboard. Investigators arrived, including agents from the FBI, and they got the van open and discovered John McGosh dead in the floorboard. He'd been shot in the floorboard. He'd been shot in the head.

They checked the back of the van and saw that all the cash was missing. The only thing that was left were rolls of coins. This crime struck investigators as bold and cold-blooded. Whoever had done this had pulled it off in a mall parking lot in broad daylight, and they'd killed a guy. Yeah. Why? You can steal a ton of money without killing one.

Just ask David Gant. Yeah. Investigators figured they were dealing with pretty sophisticated criminals. Because it's really hard to rob an armored car. They're literally covered in armor, Brandy. Yes. How'd they get the name? The glass is bulletproof, just ask Steve Chambers.

Plus the van is never left alone. The driver is always with the van. Plus, the messenger and the driver both carry guns. Take them with us to the bathroom? What? Take the van with them to the bathroom? Okay, I thought about that. You know I thought about that.

Yeah. I bet you they have a jar. You think they have to go in a jar? Absolutely. You think they leave, like, millions of dollars just, like, in the van because they've got a piddle? No, probably not. Mm-hmm. Billions of dollars just like in the van because they've got a piddle? No, probably not.

Maybe they do like a tag team back again and, you know, the guy that – what do you call it? The messenger. Or the hopper. Depending on, you know, how you want to – Yeah. The messenger comes and sits in the front seat while the driver goes and drains the lizard, as they say. Ew. What? How dare you say that to me?

I'm a classy woman. You're the Grace Kelly of podcasts. I was. I had a debutante ball. You did not. Do you remember when we were in high school and like, okay, remember when people were nominated for like the court? Oh, absolutely. And people would be nominated by Cotillion. I was like, what the fuck is that?

That's what it is. That's what Cotillion is. It's the rich, rich debutantes. I never understood what Cotillion was. Says something about me that I didn't. I know. We weren't the rich, rich. We didn't go to Cot cotillion we didn't have coming out

parties well I didn't wear a white dress or do a fan dance is that what they do that's what they did on Gilmore Girls well say no more god now you're making me feel

left out for something that I wasn't a part of like a million years ago. I always wondered what Cotillion was. I kind of thought it was like a handwriting club. That's calligraphy. I know, but it sounds kind of familiar. Anyway, I was never nominated for anything. Neither was I. No, you know, anyway. I was never nominated for anything. Neither was I. No, you know, okay.

Oh, God, this is such an embarrassing story. One time for your book. So the way we did it was like each club or group would nominate somebody. And then the entire senior class would then vote for like however many people off of that or whatever yeah i was literally sitting in english class i had been nominated by newspaper and yearbook okay i don't mean somebody was like kristen pitts who the fuck's that literally yes oh no the guy who sat three seats behind me was like, who the fuck is Kristen Pitts? Were you like, did you say something?

No, I didn't say anything. I was so embarrassed. I just sat there like I always did. I'm not saying shit. And the girl who sat next to me was like, she's right here. That's horrible. Anyway, I think it goes without saying that I did not make the court. But I was a very influential member of newspaper in your book.

Yeah. Yeah, the coolest clubs there are. Anyway, I'm going to need to do a double dose of therapy this week. I'm glad I could bring up this. Yeah. Anyway, the van is never left alone. Brandy, the driver, always stays in the van. Okay.

Plus the messenger and the driver both carry guns. God, I haven't thought about that since high school. Oh, no. If you run up and try to force the doors open on an armored vehicle, an alarm goes off. Okay? So just don't even fucking try it. Whoever did this had overcome all of those obstacles. But who could have pulled it off?

Special Agent Ron Myers of the FBI was like, well, I think it's pretty obvious. The husband did it. Oops, excuse me. I mean, it was an inside job. Yeah. Because usually a successful heist is an inside job. Because usually a successful heist is an inside job. So they questioned David, the messenger, and poor David was super innocent, like adorably innocent.

The detective who interviewed him referred to David as doe-eyed, frightened, kind of befuddled. Poor David. So they looked into John Magosh. Maybe he'd been involved in the heist and gotten double-crossed by his accomplices. But that didn't appear to be the case. They looked into John's habits and figured out a much more likely explanation. John McGosh was a smoker. And that can be a little tricky when you drive an armored van.

You can't roll the windows down. You can't leave the van to go smoke. And you're not supposed to crack the door open while you sit there smoking. I thought he was like a smoker, a joker, a midnight toker. No. And that some people called him Maurice. What? What?

Anyway, you're not supposed to crack the door open, Brandi, because someone could rush up to you and get... Well, you don't crack the door. You crack the window. No, you can't crack the window in an armored van. Are you listening? I'm sorry. I'm following now. The windows don't roll down. So to get air in the vehicle, he would have had to crack the door.

I got it. I'm sorry. I was not following. I'm up to speed now. I'm beginning to think that you also didn't know who Kristen Pitts was. So yeah, anyway, Brandy, when John parked in the parking lot, he'd obviously

opened the door when he smoked a cigarette and someone killed him and drove off with him in the van. Clearly, someone had been studying John for a very long time. They knew his habits. Investigators searched the crime scene for clues, but they didn't find much. Whoever had done this hadn't left any fingerprints. And when they killed John, they did so using a frangible bullet.

What? It's not a word that I had to look up because I knew it already. What's the Webster's Dictionary definition of frangible bullet? Well, I'm glad you asked because I anticipated that you would not be as smart as me. Frangible means fragile. Which begs the question, why not just say fragile, but you know, what the fuck ever? And a frangible bullet is one

that basically falls apart or disintegrates as soon as it makes a million pieces inside the target's body. Yep. Which means they can't do ballistics tests on it. Someone is picking up what I'm putting down. I'm smelling what you're stepping in.

Investigators were screwed. When they searched the mall parking lot, all they found were John McGosh's glasses. They'd been shattered. All they found were John McGosh's glasses. They'd been shattered. But once news about the armed car robbery broke out, a few people called in with tips. A bicyclist said that they saw a white van driving away from the mall that day. The person said, yeah, I saw a white van going down the road super fast, and it was being followed by a red pickup truck.

The driver of the red truck was white. He was in his 20s or 30s. He had dark hair. I remember all this because they blew a stop sign. I was going to say, like, I could not describe someone that I saw driving past me in another car. Well, if they blew a stop sign. No, I still could not describe them. He said, I don't know that I'd be able to say if it was a man or a woman.

Hmm. This seems sketchy. Who is this eyewitness? A bicyclist? Don't you trust bicyclists? No, I'm famously skeptical of bicyclists. Lance Armstrong. I trusted one No, I'm famously skeptical of bicyclists. Lance Armstrong.

I trusted one cyclist. Never again. So this guy, whose name was Lance, was like, yeah, they blew through a stop sign. And you can't just blow through stop signs. We have rules. We're living in a society. And investigators were like, cool, can you tell us if the truck was a Ford, a Dodge, a Chevy? And the guy was like, no, but I can tell you more about the importance of stopping for stop signs.

And although no one could deny the importance of his message, they simply didn't have the time to hear it, Brandy. I was involved in an incident with someone earlier today who decided, fuck street signs. Oh my God. You and Norman are the same

person. And to have you both in a front seat is a dangerous thing. You two, like, you're very hard to get angry. Yeah. In like a normal setting. But when it comes to driving, we get fired up quick. We were attempting to go to a favorite lunch spot today, folks. And on the way, there was a road closure.

Not a big deal, one might say. And there was a detour sign. Only the detour led us nowhere. And so Norm, the hero of this story, who was piloting the vehicle, decided road signs be damned. And he drove the wrong way on a one-way street to get us to our destination. Which was closed. What a hero. Yep. Anyway, you two are dangerous.

That's the end of that story. For weeks, this investigation went nowhere. But about a month after the robbery, I had to burp. It took me a whole month. A whole month. You've been really working on it. An informant told investigators, Hey, there's a woman who I think you need to talk to about that Wells Fargo heist.

So investigators went and talked to the woman, and she told them about an ex-boyfriend named James Greenham. She said that James was a bounty hunter. He was usually broke and he had a face like Eeyore and a mustache like Yosemite Sam. And one time he asked her, what would you do if I robbed an armored car? She said that about a month ago, sometime after the robbery, all of a sudden, James had cash. Like, a lot of cash. Like approximately $500,000 in cash. Well, maybe he had just blitted, I mean.

Also, James had a friend named Tim Ring. He was also a bounty hunter. And guess what kind of car Tim drove? A red pickup truck? A Zamboni. No, it was a red truck. Do you have Zamboni in your notes? Yes.

You know what I have thought about more than once? I was like, what if Brandy guesses Zamboni just to be a smartass? Tim was an excellent marksman. He was also a former prison guard. Also, he was an FBI informant. And shortly after the robbery, he'd come to the FBI and been like, hey, hey, what can I do to help with the investigation? Want me to drum up any leads? I'm just helpful. Just so everybody knows, Kristen pretended she was playing a drum as she said, drum up any leads. And I looked really hot when I did it.

The hottest drummer this side of Travis Barker. Suck on that, Tommy Lee. Also, fun fact. I don't know how to tell you this. Tim Ring looks a lot like your dad. What? Don't look him up. Don't look him up. Why? I want to know.

No, I will look him up for you. Why don't you do an image search? Because you might do a search. Because you don't know how to spell it. No, because I want to control. Because like in later, later in life, he doesn't look like your dad. But like I've got. Hang on.

Okay, show me. Oh, God, this isn't the Tim. Show me the Tim. Fun fact. My dad's name. Also Tim. His middle name is Ring. No. His middle name is Ring. No.

His middle name is David. Is it really? Yeah. Is that why you fell in love with David? No. No. I said that just to make you uncomfortable. Like a good friend.

Okay, I'm showing you a very old picture. Okay. Oh, hang on. It's loading. Oh, boy. Buffering. Megan Trainor, what are you doing here? Okay, hang on.

Okay, I want you to look at this man. He's about 30 years old in this picture. Do you see him? Well, I'm going to need to see that closer. Well, I forgot you're supposed to wear glasses, but you don't because of vanity. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that looks like your dad. Yeah, I could see that.

This guy at 30 looked like your dad at 30. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I realize that does nothing for the listener who has never seen your dad. Who did my dad? My dad at 30 looked like a cross between Matt Damon and Nick Nolte.

What's Nick Nolte look like? But you got to look at Nick Nolte young because Nick Nolte old, my dad doesn't look anything like. Oh, my God. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Here's the thing about Brandy's parents. Good looking folks. Yes, I come from wonderful genetics.

Obviously, the woman doesn't take her makeup off at night you also are beautiful too little too late did you hear that mom and dad she had the opportunity i set her up i said oh oh tim and lynn are good looking people What about Sheree Ray and DP? She's like oh they're fugs No your parents are also very attractive people My parents are like abnormally attractive I mean it's true It's true

And also they look ridiculously young For their ages All the plastic surgery. No, they really are kind of freaks. They are! Yeah, which makes me more and more nervous about being friends with you as we age. We'll be in

the old age home and they'll be like, Oh, are you her carer? I'll say no. We went to elementary school together in the same grade. Anyway, so he looks like your dad and investigators were stoked because they had something new

to add to their 10 pounds fun fact journal and also because their investigation was finally going somewhere. Oh, good. But this wouldn't be easy. What's it like to have, like, really good-looking parents? Are you like... I mean, I'm hoping it carries on, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, I hope I got those genes passed down. I should clarify. I mean, I know what it's like to have really good hair. Of course. Of course you do. Yeah. You know how everyone wants to look like Ronald McDonald?

That's mean. Well, I have that with my dad. Your dad looks like Ronald McDonald when he was younger and now he looks like Larry David. The genetic lottery. Yeah. How will things go wrong for me? Obviously they won't. Duh.

No, clearly you got your Aunt Denise's genes because she's gorgeous. Oh my God. As are you. Oh, my God. As are you. Oh, thank you, Brandy. Anytime I'm around my Aunt Denise and people are like, oh, my gosh, you look alike. I'm like, oh, my God, stop it. You look so much like your Aunt Denise. All right, fine.

You know what's interesting? Okay, to us and to none of the listeners. Your dad, for your parents' anniversary, recently shared a picture of his wedding day to Sheree. Kyla looks so much like your mom. You think so? Yes. See, I think it's funny how sometimes when you're in the family, you can't see this stuff. Yes. Yes.

Yeah. Just beautiful, beautiful can't see this stuff. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Just beautiful people all over the place. But I do agree that I look like my gorgeous aunt. You do. I fully accept that. That's obviously a fact. So anyway, this wouldn't be easy. James and Tim were bounty hunters.

So anyway, this wouldn't be easy. James and Tim were bounty hunters. And bounty hunters tend to know enough about law enforcement tactics that they're more difficult to investigate than your average person because they've got those blonde mullets. And that really allows them to blend in. I think that's only dog the bounty hunter. Oh, I'm sorry. I don't think that's a standard issue uniform. Okay. I just assumed.

So investigators set up a task force and began 24-hour surveillance of Tim and James. And they watched them spend money, spend money, spend money. Not work, not work, not work. They also noticed that the two men spent quite a bit of time with this other guy, a 43-year-old retired police officer named Bill Ferguson, a.k.a. Fergie. No. I thought he was going to be like Billy Ferg. No.

Oh, that's what I'd call him. Would you? Mm-hmm. You're ready to learn more about him and hear how great you'd be? Not good friends I'd be with him. Turns out the police force allowed Bill to retire because he was about to be fired. Oh, good. He had been using the police computers to look up models and rock stars and newscasters.

He'd also been previously suspended for grabbing a guy by the throat and slamming him against the wall. This was one of three times that he did something like that. Also, one time he was caught falsifying a report about where he'd been on the night shift. Also good. Another time when he was on duty, he was reading a magazine. good another time when he was on duty he was reading a magazine and uh that sounds fine but what he was really doing was that thing where you have one magazine and then another magazine

inside that magazine it was playboy and i guess he was in a hospital and so he went up to some hospital employee he was like look at this i'm looking at porn and of hospital employee who was like, look at this. I'm looking at porn. And, of course, the woman was like, ew, stop. What the fuck? Yeah. Billy Ferg, I don't want to be friends with you. No. Wait, is that his name? Fergy Ferg.

Fergy Ferg. Mm-hmm. He's Fergalicious. Uh-huh. His body stays vicious. Yeah. Because he's up in the gym just working on his fitness. He's my witness.

I'm sorry to all the listeners. You're not going to believe this, Brandy, but when investigators surveilled Bill, they noticed that he was spending money, spending money, spending money. Not working, not working, not working. Oh, no. All of this was enough to convince a judge that they needed to wiretap these guys' phones. Excellent. I love a wiretap. Me too. What'd they hear?

Oh, there will be dramatic reenactments. Oh, fuck yes. The phone calls were pretty interesting. In one, Tim was on the phone with Bill and they were talking about cars. One of my favorite subjects. Hot subs.

They're like, do you have the Subaru out back? Because I do. Okay. Bill was clearly trying to talk some sense into his buddy Tim. Here's how it went. Bill.

Yeah, the only problem with BMWs is they draw a lot of attention. See, nobody thinks about anything if you buy a Pontiac. I mean, that's true. That is true. Tim. Oh.

I was thinking about that, too. Bill. Yeah, you know, all of a sudden a BMW is parked in your driveway. I guarantee you, you're going to be in trouble. Tim. I'm tempted to go and get myself a Z anyways. The fuck's a Z? A Z3?

A BMW Z3? Duh. That was my dream car when I was 11. You don't even know how disappointed I am. I thought you would immediately know because they were talking about BMWs. Do you remember every time we saw it at the mall? Yes. You always freaked out.

Yes. That's why I was like, Brandy's going to love this. And then you're like, a Z? What's a Z? I didn't like masturbate to that when I was 11. I had it on my vision board. You didn't have a vision board back then. I did.

Did you really? Yes. And there was a little, it was a newspaper ad that I had cut out of a Z3 right in the middle of my vision board. You were ahead of the curve on vision board. I didn't call it a vision board then. What did you call it? It was just like a bulletin board, but it had all of these things that were like goals in my life. Like if I got these things and I really made it.

What else was on there? Gosh, I don't remember. The Z3 was the focus. I mean, obviously. You were obsessed with those. I was! I distinctly remember one time driving to the mall. My parents were driving us,

obviously. And I mean, this is such a lame story. It was just a Z3 was in front of us and you were very excited. Okay, end of story. Wow, that was cool. So anyway, Tim says, I'm tempted to go and you were very excited. Okay, end of story. Wow, that was cool. So anyway, Tim says, I'm tempted to go and get myself a Z anyways.

And Bill goes, and Tim said, I really am. I'm very, very, very, very, very tempted. Well, very, very, very, very, very, very tempted. Well, very, very, very, very, very. And Bill said, well, I think you should wait.

And Tim said, well, no shit, Fergie. Bill, well, I'm just checking. Tim, Jesus Christ. Well, I'm just checking. Tim. Jesus Christ! Later in the call, they talked some shit about their accomplice, James Greenham. By the way, everyone called James Yoda.

You think his last name was Greenham? What? Does Greenham? Yoda's green. Okay, in all the articles I saw. Oh, gosh. I mean, that would be great if that was the reason. Why'd they really do it? Because he was ugly.

That's what the articles said. I didn't think he was, like, remarkably unattractive. He did have some folds to his face. I mean, I'll say that. Okay. But, I mean, not like, oh, man, I need to come up with a nickname for this guy. Anyway, I was offended. Here's what they said. Tim.

Yeah, he was doing so good too, but not anymore. I'm cutting him off. Bill. Well, that'll fuck up one of our plans. Tim, what's that? Bill, well, isn't that going to fuck up up north? Tim, I don't mean getting rid of him. Bill, oh. Tim tim i'm just cutting him off as far as supplying him what he needs to be that way see you don't understand i hold both his and mine oh money the money i stole from the armored truck see they didn't say it but it's pretty clear what they're talking about

because i am a detective. Bill. Hmm. Tim. I have it. He doesn't. Bill. The look? Hmm.

She's got the look. She's got the look. And the money. Da-na-na-na-na-na-na. The wiretap also captured Tim talking about James saying that, quote, his house is clean. Mine, on the other hand, contains a very large bag. Oh. This next part has nothing to do with anything, but they also recorded Tim sharing some facts about women.

Oh, good. What do we got? Hit me with it. In one call, he said, she's a woman. And you can do a lot of things, but you'll never get a woman to stop acting like a woman. Okay. Joke's on him because you're a woman and also you act like a jackass.

So investigators were gathering evidence and they were watching these dudes spend money on the things that matter the most in life. Bill Ferguson in particular spent a lot of his money at his favorite strip club.

He even asked some of the ladies to work on a side project for him. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he hired them to participate in a photo shoot at a local airstrip. Mmm. Yeah. Was he making a calendar?

I'm gonna need you to picture this okay all right okay two beautiful blonde very tan women busty oh my god are you kidding me wearing red string thong bikinis you didn't even have to tell me. I was already picturing him wearing that. Shoes that are basically stilts. Yep. And they're laying seductively on Bill Ferguson's new Camaro. No. Is it red? Actually, I can't remember. You know what?

If I were directing this thing, I would hope not because I would want the red bikinis to pop more. You don't want the red bikinis to pop. Yes, you do. You want it to blend in so it's almost as if the women are nude. Oh. See, I'm picturing white Camaro red. I'm guessing it's a red Camaro. Red, most popular color for a Camaro.

Circa what year is this? 94? Oh yeah, it's a red Camaro. Okay. Meanwhile, Bill's photographing them with great passion. And for the occasion, he's wearing

jeans, a gray t-shirt tucked into his pants, and an open vest to top off the ensemble. So he looks like a little bit artistic. I don't know, because he was also wearing this baseball hat that was bright red and had a yellow bill on it. Okay. All right. He's grinning like he's having the time of his life. Yeah. Meanwhile, unbeknownst to Bill, the FBI was inside the airport taking pictures of Bill,

taking pictures of the hot women. It was very meta. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Am I using that word correctly? Yeah. I've some...

I've never really quite understood that word. I don't either. I was very confident in saying yes, but I'm not sure. Just like the time I asked you how to pronounce Reuters. Uh-huh, and we were both wrong. At this point in the investigation, investigators surmised that Tim Ring was the leader of the group. James, a.k.a. Yoda, was the weak link. Was he perhaps the

leader of the pack? Ring leader? I would like to be applauded for my amazing restraint because you know, they're having these wiretaps and I wanted so many times to say, so-and-so gave Tim Ring a ring. But then I was like you know what

no people have come for my stupid jokes and I want to give the people what they want anyway Tim Ring was the leader of the group James was the weak link, and Bill, a.k.a. Fergie, was one of the few people brave enough to pair a short-sleeved shirt with a vest. Investigators knew that they needed to go after James.

Investigators? Stop it. James seemed to be having a tough time and Tim was babying him he bought James his groceries and one time he went out and bought James some new underwear what? you have no idea

how much I wish I had more information I need to had more information. I need to know more about that. They just dropped that in in the American Justice episode. Like it was like a, you know, like little quirky fact. No, I need to know. If I go out and buy you new underwear, it's because you have like shat yourself. Shat my pants and I cannot go to the store and buy my own underwear. Obviously.

Yes. But it's not like, oh, you know what? I was at the store and I was thinking about your butt. And so I picked you up some underwear. No, no.

If you are buying me underwear it is an emergency situation. Something horrible has happened. Run to the Victoria's Secret. Run back to the JCPenney's bathroom where Brandy is holed up. Yes, exactly. I'm surprised you're not offended. You probably carry underwear in JCPenney.

You probably didn't have to go to Victoria's Secret. I wouldn't buy you JCPenney underwear. Thank you. You're welcome. I appreciate that. Uh-huh. I mean, this is part of being cheap.

It's like, you're not going to want to re-wear the JCPenney underwear. Mm-mm. No. I'm going to get you something real cute.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I get it. Mm-hmm. Wow, I burped while I was taking a drink. That's new. It took talent, but I obviously have a lot of talent,

and that's why I was nominated by the yearbook and the newspaper for... Chris and Pits, who the hell is that? I think she has an award-winning podcast. I think she has an award-winning podcast. Anyway, investigators knew that they needed to go after James Brandy. Are you okay? My best friend is calling me. Shut up.

Scam likely. Let me talk to them. So investigators devised some plans to make James poop his new panties, which is a disturbing way of putting it. But I think that Detective Tom Clayton put it much worse when he was interviewed on American Justice. What did Tom Clayton say? Here is what he said. This is a direct quote. It's going to sound like I'm adding stuff. I'm not.

He said, so we decided to do some tickles to stimulate conversation. Oh, no. I know. I don't care for that one bit. Disgusting. Keep your tickles to yourself, Tom.

Here's what they did. You ready for the tickles? They drew up sketches of the suspects, and then they posted the sketches by James' house, knowing that he would see them and freak the fuck out. Yeah. They made sure

to make the sketch of James look exactly like him. Mm-hmm. And they did that by printing out a picture of baby Yoda. Which is just a rude thing that I have said. It's not true at all. Then Detective Tom Clayton left his business card on James' door. Oh, shit. With a note asking him to call about, quote, lead 176.

Okay, that's... What? You love it, don't you? I sure do. What do you love about it? What do you love? I mean, it's going to draw out a response. They're going to tickle the right spot.

By the way, 176 was Tom's number in the academy. He just put it there to fuck with James. And man, did it work! As soon as James saw that business card, he took off for the desert! He called Tim Ring

in a panic. Would you like to know what he said in this voicemail? Yes! Here we go. Yeah, what part of 911 don't you fucking understand? Fucking call me. Oh no. James stayed in the desert for hours waiting for Tim to return his call. And when he did, James was like, there's been a detective at my house. Tim, over what? James, I don't know. Tim, is that right?

James, he left his business card. Tom Clayton, senior investigator. Tim managed to calm James down a little. He said, go home. There's nothing to worry about. And the next day, Tim went over to James' house to talk. By this point, James' apartment was bugged. And so investigators got to listen as Tim coached James on their cover story.

Oh, shit. Tim said, number one, you still remember the story about pulling me out of the ditch, right? Okay, number two, you can't just say I was at the Four Peaks Corner getting out of the ditch because they're going to go, how the fuck do you know that's the right day? And James said, I'm going gonna go uh i'm gonna go how am i supposed to have a fucking clue you know i don't know what i was doing last week tim kept reassuring james he said if they thought you were involved in something big they'd crash your door down they wouldn't just leave a business card? They'd bug your house.

And your phone. They'd tap your phones. They've got nothing. They'd be sitting outside your door just watching your everything. Listening in right now. At some point, Tim took it upon himself to call the number on that business card. Tim took it upon himself to call the number on that business card. He told Detective Tom that he was calling on behalf of his friend James because he takes care of James' place when he's out of town.

Detective Tom decided to take a buddy-buddy approach with him. And here's how that conversation went. Tom. We're trying to catch up on leads. Somebody called in and said that the person who lives in that apartment looks like the composite and drives a red truck of some kind. Tim. Yeah, he just got his truck. Tom. What?

Oh, he just got one? Tim. Yeah. Yeah. Tom. Yeah, well, it's probably not likely that he's been out doing any armed robberies or anything, huh? Tim. I've known him for a long time. I don't think so.

So casual. So casual. So casual. And then Tim goes, just between you, me, and the wall, I'm working on that too. I'm a CI for the FBI.

Okay, Tim. It stands for cute introvert. It stands for confidential informant. So you get the idea. Tim's a good guy, just super helpful, super innocent. But are you ready for another tickle? No, no. I purposely said that in a creepy way.

It was very creepy. Great. Tickle me, Kristen. I mean, less creepy than tickle me, Elmo, right? That's right. Wasn't that kind of molester? Okay. Well, that's very complicated, but.

Well, I know that Elmo the puppet wasn't a molester. Yeah. But Elmo the voice. The guy that voiced Elmo, yeah. So that's not super complicated. Pedophile. I mean, there's complicated stuff in this world. That doesn't sound super complicated. Well, Elmo.

Elmo. Elmo not molest anyone. That's an inappropriate joke yeah and i'll think you never to do that again kristin yeah an appropriate joke would be i almost did molest people oh wait i see what you're saying. Not molesting at all. Yeah. On the jokes.

Yeah. I got you. That's right. It's not about the factual content of the joke. Investigators released information about the crime that was intentionally false just to get the guys talking. And it worked. Tim called Bill and said he'd laughed his ass off watching the news about the robbery

and that he was not real worried at all now. Okay. At this point, investigators thought they had enough. They were actually kind of nervous because Tim was an excellent shot and he almost always had a gun on him. Ooh! Ooh!

Yeah. So they decided to trick him. What'd they do? They asked him to come into the FBI office because they desperately needed his help with the Wells Fargo investigation. I know. It's perfect.

Well, how dumb is he, though? Well, he's super fucking arrogant. He's like, these guys are out on their ass from a hole in the ground. When he got there, they tackled him at gunpoint in the lobby, which seems rude. That seems excessive. He was shocked. Yeah. He's like, no, no, no seems rude. That seems excessive. He was shocked. Yeah. He was like, no, no, no, I'm here to help.

He was like, you guys asked me here. You invited me here. What do you think I am, Elmo? And they're like, hey, Elmo didn't molest anybody. It was a guy who voiced Elmo. Later that day, they also arrested James and Bill. This probably won't surprise you, but Brandy, Tim, and Bill were like walnuts that had been left out in a dry heat. They were tough nuts to crack.

And James, on the other hand, was like a cashew that had been left out in the rain. Easy nut to crack. That's right. He sang like a little canary. You're mixing the metaphors, and I don't appreciate that. James spent most of the- He sang like Mr. Peanut. You like that better?

That's great. That's keeping it up. I like it. James spent most of the interrogation in tears. And about an hour into it, he said, Tim pulled the trigger. James said that Tim had done all the planning for the heist. On the day of the shooting, he and Tim and Bill were all waiting in the parking lot when the armored van pulled up, and the driver opened his door to smoke a cigarette and when he did that Tim shot him with

a silenced rifle from a good distance away. Wow. As soon as the driver was shot James was right there. He swung open the door pushed John's body over and drove off. He drove three miles to a church parking lot with Tim and Bill following in the red truck. Once they got in the parking lot Why'd they burn their shoes? I mean, seems a little excessive. I don't know if they thought maybe their shoe prints. Who knows? Okay, the bands, though. That was smart. Yeah, I mean, a lot of these dumb

asses get caught with the bands. Yeah. They burned everything. So, with the confession, so, with the confession, which has an F in it, not a V, and all three men under arrest.

Investigators searched their homes. A search of Tim's home revealed a duffel bag full of money. About 200K in cash. And another bag inside of it also contained cash. And James' ID. And then there was

another bag inside of that and it had cash. No, just Russian dolls. I was getting there, Kristen. I'm sorry. In total, there was about $271,000 in cash in the home. Where's the rest? Well, don't you think Fergie Ferg took it? Fergie Ferg has it?

Up to the gym to just work on his fitness? You think those ladies laid out on that Camaro for free? Oh, you're right. They've spent money. Duh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.

So Tim got himself a hot tub. An article called it an outdoor jacuzzi. And I'm like, hello. That's a hot fucking tub. We call that a hot tub. And I want one. I i know do i have to rob an armored car i will do it i think you could just buy one i know i could is norm not on the hot tub train no he's not he gets too hot just sitting just sitting in regular weather it's

because he's married to you i know he's He's so lucky. He's so fucking lucky. You know, today over lunch we were talking about how lucky we are to be with our current partners. And I did have to prompt Norm a couple times to brag about me. And it really didn't come out naturally. He was like, no, no. I'm very happy. I swear. Uh-huh.

I swear I'm very happy to be married to you. I have not consulted a be married to you. I have not consulted a hitman at all. Anyway, investigators also found a homemade silencer and rifle, amongst other guns. I mean, he was a marksman. Yeah. And in the headboard of Tim's bed, they found a Post-it note. What did it say?

It was a to-do list? Fuck bitches get money? Brandy, that is offensive. No, that's my to-do list for the year. It can't be offensive because that's my to-do list. It was divided into three columns. The

columns read F Y Y, and T. Fuck your tits. Oh, Yoda. Fergie, Yoda, and Tim. Very good. I got it. There were calculations in each column. Under the F column, about 153K.

Under the Y column, about 211K. Under the T column, about 211K. When you added the columns up. 575. Yeah, about that. I tell you what, I hear stuff like that and I'm like, man, other people are so much better at math than me. Talk about something I wouldn't have even attempted. That was close to the amount that had been stolen from the van.

563. K was the amount stolen from the van? So yeah, it was trial time. James and Bill would go on to plead guilty, but Tim maintained that he was innocent and he was up for the death penalty. His trial began in November of 1995. Prosecutors argued that Tim pulled the trigger, but they didn't actually have to prove that in order for him to stay eligible for the death penalty. All they needed to do was prove that he was guilty of capital murder, which we've talked about on the podcast before. That's when someone dies when you're committing another felony. Yeah.

What state are we in? Arizona. Okay. I don't like the death penalty. I state are we in? Arizona. Okay. I mean, they're no Texas or no Missouri, but I think they're the next one. I think they kind of are though. Well, I think it goes Texas, Missouri, Arizona. I think that's the order. Oh Lord. Anyway,or Alfred Frenzel had a decent circumstantial case. What's that face for? I like that name, Alfred Frenzel.

I added an R. It was Alfred Frenzel. Okay. And I was just going to roll on through like a rude bitch. Now that you've said it, I don't care for the name Alfred Frenzel one bit. Well, suck on that, Alfred. Oh, God, he's probably dead now. I'm sorry. Anyway, he had the recorded phone calls, the duffel bag full of cash, the post-it note.

But I'm going to give defense attorney Greg Clark points for his boldness. What did he do? Defense attorney Greg Clark points for his boldness. What did he do? In his opening statement, he told the jury that Tim Ring had been set up by the FBI. Oh, shit. Mm-hmm. They had him on the payroll to commit illegal activities, Brandy, and now they've made him the fall guy for this whole murder and robbery.

Mm. What do you think? That's pretty good. Okay. Yeah. Can you prove that? Don't worry about it. Does he have any?

I mean, it's a bold claim to make. It is bold. Does he have any evidence to back that up? Got pay stubs? They tend not to give you pay stubs for the illegal activities. Uh-huh. See, that's my concern here. Let's just worry about the prosecution for now.

All right, all right. The prosecution played the recorded phone calls for the jury, including the one where Tim and Bill talk. And Tim talks about holding his and Jim's dongs. Yeah, and they were like, oh, sorry, that was the wrong one. Let's also talk about the one where he's clearly talking about money. They talk about like, yeah, we think he's talking about money, not dongs. Yeah. And that made sense because when investigators searched Tim's house, they found two bags of money.

One had his name on it and the other had James' ID on it. And he was holding his own dong and Yoda's dong. So it worked both ways, you see. The prosecution also called FBI agents to the stand to testify about their investigation and also talk about Tim's previous work as an informant. They said that, yes, they did work with Tim as a bounty hunter, but it was kind of like a small potatoes thing. For his work, they had paid him $458. Yeah, it was kind of small potatoes.

Also, he'd come to them asking to be part of the Wells Fargo investigation. When it was time for the defense to take over, they pointed out that there were no fingerprints tying Tim to the crime. Fingerprints. Fingerprints. What? It's a They Might Be Giants song. Boy, that's timely. Was that ever even popular? I heard that song for the first time in your basement. Which shows that it was not cool. Kyla purchased her boyfriend a They Might Be Giants CD for his

birthday. She sure did. And then we all listened to it. And then obviously it stuck in my mind. And then he purchased for her. Didn't he get her a potted plant for Valentine's Day? That sounds familiar. She was not pleased.

Yeah, potted plants back then were not the rage that they are these days. That's true. I have a lot of potted. Yeah, potted plants are very popular these days. The COVID times have been very good for the potted plant industry. I mean, I'm the coolest person you know, and I've got a bunch of them. Yeah. Some of that's right.

Anyway, there was no physical evidence to tie the money from the robbery to the money that was found in Tim's home, Brandy. Yeah, but... Also, also, the sketches that they'd made off of witness recollections didn't match Tim Ring. They didn't? No, they didn't look like him. Hmm. Hmm. Okay.

Yeah. All right. Did they look like Yoda or that other guy? What's that other guy's name? Bill Fergie Ferg. Yeah. Ferguson. Yeah.

You know, I really should have gone back and looked at the sketches. I didn't. Great. We'll never know. The world may never know. I mean, unless they go back and look at the, I mean, it would take five seconds. Anyway. But we don't have the time.

We don't have the time. We're still tracking down Elmo. Did we have time to talk about the gift Kyla bought for her boyfriend in 2001? Yes. Yes, we did. At length. And what he gave to her. And now she didn't appreciate it yes we had time for that we don't have time for this we have to make decisions that's right

then tim took the stand in his own defense oh we Yeah. For the occasion, he dressed like a fancy man on a fancy boat. And by that, I obviously mean that he wore khaki pants, a navy blazer, and a white button-up. Yep. We all know what I meant by that. Oh, absolutely. He looked like Andrew Bernard. That's right. The Nard Dog. Yeah. On the stand, Tim claimed that his FBI handler had involved him in this case early on. The FBI had come to him for help. Tim also had an explanation for the Post-it note. He said, and I think this is a really great explanation, he said that the Post-it note represented a speculative business plan. he said that the Post-it note represented a speculative business plan.

See, he and James were planning to start a construction company together. And that Post-it note was just like them thinking about numbers and dividing those numbers. They did this all the time, Brandy. They were always putting numbers on Post-it notes for their business plan. Were there any other documents to back up this business plan? Or was this just a singular Post-it note type of plan? Well, I think when you hear this quote, you'll understand completely. He told the jury, we just sat down and started crunching numbers. And this is one of well over a dozen different ones that we had come up with.

This is the one I kept because it was the first one I made. No. He's just sentimental. Timmy, Timmy, Timmy. Timmy, Timmy, Tim Tam. Timmy! Let me tell you, Timmy. No one is believing that.

Under cross-examination, the prosecution was like, I scrolled too far ahead in my script. That's what they said. And then they said, you say this is a business plan between you and James, but why are there three columns? What does the F stand for? Who's the F? And Tim said, the F stands for front money. No. And the prosecutor said, from whom? Tim, that would have been the money after we had split the thirds of the make-believe investment. I mean, these are just numbers that we made up. Prosecution, I wasn't asking you what it was going to be.

I want to know the name of F. Tim, the F stands for front money. Okay, Tim. Like you're the idiot. Yeah. Tim also testified that the duffel bag full of cash came from a number of sources.

Some of it was James's savings. He was hanging on to it for, you know, like what any good friend does. It was for their construction business. You know how I keep like just a duffel bag full of my cash here, just in case. Yeah. Yeah. Who needs a bank when you've got my garage? When I get a fresh stack of bills, the first place I come is to your house and I stash it away in a duffel bag inside a duffel bag in the basement. It's what I do. Now someone's going to rob me and be very disappointed. Now someone's going to rob me and be very disappointed. So, you know, some of it was James's savings and the rest of it was money that Tim made making illegal bounty hunting trips into Mexico on behalf of the FBI.

He said that he made six trips to Mexico to make illegal arrests. He said that. Well, hold on. He said that the FBI paid him a lot of secret money for this work, like over $100,000. Tim said that he didn't have any records of the secret money because the records for that money had been stolen from his home, which I'm surprised you would even have records of that. The answer is there's no records of the secret money because there's secret money and you don't keep records of secret money. Timmy.

And the jury deliberated for five hours. And they were like, that dude's guilty as fuck. They found him guilty of felony murder, but they deadlocked on premeditated murder. Oh, really? They thought this was a spur of the moment thing? Well, they could. OK. The heist was planned.

The murder was not. I'm getting it now. OK. No, they were saying they couldn't say for certain that he was the one who pulled the trigger. Oh. Which, I mean, I can see that. I get that, too. You don't really have anything.

Like, I was shocked. James didn't testify at this. Neither did Bill. Yeah. Well, Bill doesn't exist. What? The F is for front money. Okay, I was like,

I just told you about him. Who do you think bravely wore those short-sleeved tees with the open vest over the top? This still left him eligible for the death penalty, but only if he could be found as the actual killer. Under Arizona law at this time, a judge decided whether someone who was convicted of murder gets a death penalty. And in order to do that, the judge had to find at least one aggravating factor to sentence the person to death. And that aggravating factor didn't have to have been considered by the jury. By this point, James Greenham, aka Yoda, had made

a deal with prosecutors. He pled guilty to second-degree murder and armed robbery and was sentenced to 27 and a half years. Bill Ferguson also pled guilty and got 16 years. And so even though he never testified at Tim's trial, James testified at the sentencing hearing. In October of 1997, Judge Gregory Martin heard testimony from James Greenham, and James said that Tim planned the heist. He pulled the trigger from 40 yards away. And after he shot the armored car driver, he wanted to be congratulated on his excellent shot. The judge was disgusted. He ruled that Tim had killed John McGosh. He'd done it for money and it had been especially heinous, cruel, and depraved. Yeah. Aggravating factors, check.

Check. So on October 29th, 1997, Tim's 33rd birthday, he was sentenced to death. Oh, fuck. Yeah. I know you love that. Okay, well, I like the date thing, but yeah. I know. See, I love that. Okay, well, I like the date thing, but... I know. See, I like that.

I like that he was sentenced on his birthday. What are you feeling, Brandy? Yeah, I'm just... I don't want to live in a death penalty, so yeah, I'm not going to get excited about that. Do you think he did this? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. Afterward, Tim told the press that he was not surprised by his sentence.

He said, I had a friendly bet with my lawyer. I won. Then he looked into the news cameras and sent a message to John Magosh's daughter. He said, I did not shoot your father. I may know who did it if the information I have is correct. I would like to help you

or see these people brought to justice. Okay, Tim. His legal battle wasn't over. He got an attorney named James Stuckey to help with his appeal. Hilarious, I know. And James knew his shit. He made a number of arguments for a new trial, and I'm just going to focus on the one that matters the most. This new attorney was like, you got the death penalty because of James Greenham's testimony, but the jury never heard the evidence about how you were the shooter.

Only the judge heard that so the judge effectively decided on an issue of fact and that's not constitutional yeah so they appealed to the arizona supreme court and the arizona supreme court was like nope we're best friends with the lower court leave us us alone. And so Tim and his legal team were like, fine, we're going to take this thing all the way to the United States. Supreme Court! And that's exactly what they did in the spring of 2002. Wow. Their argument was simple. According to the Bill of Rights, we all have the right to a jury trial.

And the jury is the one that is supposed to decide on the facts of the case. And in Tim's case, a judge decided that he'd been the shooter. Judges shouldn't be allowed to do that. And in June of 2002, the Supreme Court sided with Tim. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote the majority opinion that the jury, not the judge, has to decide on the facts in a death penalty case. This actually had a big impact on a lot of death penalty cases, and in September of 2003, a federal appeals court ruled that more than 100 death sentences in Arizona and two other states should be commuted to life in prison. A few years later, in 2006, Tim waived his right to a retrial before a jury and got

resentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. So that's how the American Justice episode ended. Is there more? Now we're getting to why I couldn't sleep at night okay okay so i watched this and you know like you listen to the wiretaps and it's like well obviously this guy did this but then they showed some clips of him just talking to the camera and i felt really weird and I was just like I don't know I kinda you think maybe he didn't do it I feel like there's no way to say that

without sounding like an idiot I think he was probably involved but I don't think I don't think it went down the way they're saying it did really? so I was like I just have to know more about this. So I stayed up way too late last night on newspapers.com reading crusty old articles about this case.

And it turns out this case is way more controversial than meets the eye. Really? Shame on you american justice more like american half the story is that's right yeah tim said he thought he knew who really did this i came across an article from 1997 where he claimed that the real shooter was a guy named Michael Sanders. I'm getting so excited. Oh, my God. This is why I couldn't sleep. He claims that Michael Sanders was the one who robbed the truck and shot John in the head.

And then Michael used his connections with the police to put the blame on other people. And, yeah, Michael was a longtime police informant for the Maricopa County Police Force. That's in Arizona. Yeah, it's like the place where all the shit goes down. It's the place where Jody Arias was tried and convicted.

It turns out Michael was one of the main suspects in this case. Really? Yeah. According to another article, Michael was the one who pointed investigators toward James Green and Tim Ring. I know. In fact, according to an article in the Arizona –

But Tim Ring was spending money, spending money, spending money, not making money, making money, making money. You told us that. Yeah. Where did that money come from okay so here's the thing i think he was involved with this i think it does seem like he was involved somehow oh my gosh but i just hang on i don't think he's the one who pulled the trigger okay also i think it's totally possible that he was involved in other illegal shit, just not this. Also, I don't trust the FBI a ton.

So. But you have to get the mayor involved to get to the FBI. Fuck the mayor. This goes all the way to the top. According to an article in the Arizona Republic, James Greenham identified Michael Sanders as an accomplice. What? Mm-hmm. And the FBI listed Michael Sanders as a suspect based on tips they'd gotten and his resemblance to the composite drawing.

He matched the composite sketch? His resemblance to the composite drawing. He matched the composite sketch? And I don't mean to give you Carlos de Luna vibes, but at one point, Bill Ferguson's legal team filed court papers suggesting that police and the DA's office let Michael Sanders get away with murder three years before the Wells Fargo robbery. I almost said library. Oh, my God. I don't know. I'm just excited. When I'm excited, I say library excited i say library yeah love books always been cool nominated by yearbook and newspaper uh-huh who the fuck is kristen bay

in their motion they claimed that michael sanders had been working for police as a paid informant and as a result they'd refuse to prosecute him for a ton of shit. Well, that tracks with other shit we've talked about on this podcast. Yeah, what do you mean? That they... turned a blind eye. Mm-hmm. It turns out, at trial,

Tim's attorney wanted to argue that Michael Sanders was the real killer, but the judge didn't allow that defense. So this whole thing kind of hit the fan in 1997 when Michael Sanders was one of five men accused of murdering a couple named Christopher Foote and Spring Wright. He is currently serving life in prison for those murders. right. He is currently serving life in prison for those murders. So there was media coverage and some controversy about this in 1997, but it got controversial again in 2010 when Tim tried to get a new trial on the grounds of ineffective counsel at his first trial. And in this appeal, his new legal team brought up some evidence that his first attorney didn't really delve into a whole lot in the first trial. OK.

Interestingly, the Arizona Supreme Court and the U.S. Supreme Court both noted that there was definitely circumstantial evidence tying Tim to the money. Yeah. But like no evidence directly tying him to the crime itself, like the crime scene. Yeah. So that was the focus of this appeal. His new attorney brought up the fact that in John McGosh's autopsy, the coroner noted possible stippling or gunshot residue. Which means the gun was shot from close range, not 40 yards away.

Man, you have watched a ton of true crime. Yes. Yes, that's exactly what that means. But, you know, this whole story had been that John had been a sniper shooting from 40 yards away. Tim. What did I say? John. Oh, yeah. Impossible to shoot yourself from 40 yards

away. Tim was a sniper from 40 yards away and he wanted high fives all around after he made the shot. The medical examiner at the time said that, yeah, if that's gunshot residue on John's face, then he had to have been shot at close range said that, yeah, if that's gunshot residue on John's face, then he had to have been shot at close range. Yeah, I already said that.

Well, this is the medical examiner. Sorry. Who has more qualifications than you do. Oh, excuse me. For whatever reason, Tim's attorney at the time didn't really go into that a whole lot. Well, that was a mistake. I agree. go into that a whole lot.

Well, that was a mistake! I agree. So the new legal team did some tests re-examining an old slide that had been taken from John's face. Did it test positive for gunshot residue?

So, it's a little more technical. It tested positive for two of the elements in gunshot residue and basically what they said was like, for these two elements

to be present and it not be gunshot residue is like... You get one in a million chance. Yeah. In this appeal, they also argued that the defense should have questioned why there wasn't any blood spatter anywhere. Yeah. There was no blood spatter in the vehicle.

There was just blood where he had been pushed over. I know. Oh, Brandy's making faces. Okay. I know. Oh, Brandy's making faces. Also, they said the defense should have asked more questions about the bullet. Investigators had claimed that the bullet was frangible. It disintegrated inside John's head. That's what they claimed. But the autopsy report showed an entrance wound and an exit wound.

And there wasn't a bullet hole in the van. But the autopsy report showed an entrance wound and an exit wound. And there wasn't a bullet hole in the van. I know. I know. See, this is why I couldn't sleep. Oh, my gosh. So Tim Ring's theory has always been that John McGosh was in on this robbery and that Michael Sanders shot him so that he and his accomplices could keep more of the money. I don't know if I believe that.

I mean I think Tim was involved somehow. I mean the stuff they had on the wiretap, I mean that's pretty damn incriminating. But yeah, I mean I think it's really – There's a lot of doubt here. No, kidding. Yeah. He's There's a lot of doubt here. No, kidding! Yeah. He's got gunshot residue on his face. There's no blood spatter in the van. Where's the bullet?

Yeah. So they were working for a new trial, but it doesn't look like he ever got it. Did he die? No, no, He was taken off. I'm sorry. I should have been more clear. The Supreme Court decision meant that he could no longer be on death row. So he got life in prison.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I know. But did he like – I meant like did he just like pass away in prison before they gave him a new trial? But it just looks like his appeal was denied. He's super young. No, I think he – it seems like his – He's just like going to sit in prison for the rest of his life.

By the way, Bill Ferguson is out and doing really well. He still got his police pension. You love to hear that. No shit. OK. There are way too many questions left in this. And honestly, like I had been laughing my ass off at James slash Yoda. But after all this, I'm like, ooh, what was his IQ?

Yeah. And how easily was he persuaded by an interrogation? I don't know. This was weird. Oh, my gosh. Have you ever had that happen before where you're watching something and it's like presented to you in such a straightforward way and you're like, I don't know. Yeah. I'm watching this person and I'm thinking maybe there's more to this.

Oh, my gosh. So that's the complicated story of the Wells Fargo robbery. Wow. I don't know. I think he's involved, but yeah. I think he is too. There's way more to it, I think. Yeah, I think he definitely is too.

But this seems sketchy as hell. Yeah. Shall we talk about a mysterious illness? We shall. You know, I've been very excited to just kick back and hear a story. Well, I have got one for you today. This comes

from two main sources. Chillingcrimes.com Naturally. And a new show, again new to me, not new to the world, The Real Murders of Orange County. It's an oxygen program. Hey, of course it is. Obviously. January 24th, 1988, was a day Janet Overton and her 18-year-old son Eric had been looking forward to.

They were headed out that Sunday for a dale of... The farmer in the dale. Or a day of whale watching, as it turns out, on a friend's boat. But as they were packing up the car that morning, suddenly Janet collapsed in the driveway of their Dana Point, California home. Eric ran inside and called for his dad, Richard Overton. Richard and Eric carried Janet inside and laid her on the bathroom floor, which just seems rude to me. But this is not the point of this story. Why is that rude?

There's better floors. That's the worst floor in the house they could have laid her on. Maybe that was just right inside the door. Let's hope so. All right. David, listen to me now. I'm going to collapse on the floor, and you have to carry me inside any floor but the

bathroom, please. There's peas on that floor. What are you guys doing in your bathroom? There's boys in my house. Okay, that's a problem. There's an eight-year-old boy in my house who's not real strong at aiming. And also David spins when he pees.

Anyway, they laid her on the bathroom floor and they called 911. Janet was rushed to the hospital, but life-saving measures were unsuccessful. And Janet Overton passed away. She was 46 years old. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Janet's death was devastating to those around her. And to many, it came as a shock, even though Janet had been dealing with some pretty serious medical issues leading up to her death. For years, Janet had been dealing with lethargy, nausea, fatigue, and painful, unexplained sores all over her body. You about to tell me this woman was being poisoned. I don't know why I said it like that. Poisoned. I just spit all over my computer. Poisoned.

Poisoned. For, sorry, I already read this part. She had seen countless doctors, but no one could explain her symptoms. Even as her symptoms worsened, no diagnosis could be reached. At times, her clothing rubbing against the sores on her body was too painful for her to bear. Oh, my gosh. Her feet became discolored and started peeling. And eventually she required the aid of crutches in order to walk. Even with her health issues, though, Janet was a super active member of the community. She was fun.

She was energetic. She was outgoing. And she was a well-respected member of the community. She was fun. She was energetic. She was outgoing. And she was a well-respected member of the school board. Even if her ideas were a bit out there. What were her ideas? The conservative community in Orange County.

What'd she say? Like, kids should use a condom? Janet had these wild ideas that stuff like pregnancy prevention. How did I know? And same-sex relationships should be talked about in schools. Yeah, like warned against, right? Just some pretty out there stuff. Yeah, she sounds like a real wild card.

Yeah. Just some pretty out there stuff. Yeah, she sounds like a real wild card. Yeah. Janet's husband, Richard Overton, was older than her by about 15 years. And he was, that was the loudest drink he could have ever taken. And you know what? I'm really down low on my iced coffee. And I knew I was playing with fire taking such a big swig of it.

I apologize. What about her old ass husband? He was much more introverted and reserved than Janet, but he was just as well respected. He held degrees in Spanish and science, as well as a master's and a doctorate in psychology. a master's and a doctorate in psychology. He spent a lot of time teaching at various colleges and institutions of learning in the area. And also – Why various? I mean, why not –

I don't really know. Because he couldn't hold a job at one? No. I don't know. He also spent some time working in the defense industry. But I, again, don't know what the fuck that means. So you'll just – that's all I know. That came from a Los Angeles Times article.

Janet and Richard had been married for 19 years at the time of her death. Damn. What? What? Oh, OK. damn what what oh okay my i'm in a group text with my mom and casey right now and the text that just came across my screen was your daughter's going to be fine with a like a mad face after it i was like they're talking about the fucking episode that came out today. They're quoting the episode. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

Oh. Oh, geez. With the look on your face. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Now I know for sure that you love your daughter. It was kind of up in the air before. It's a real wait and see situation.

Okay. So Janet and Richard had been married for 19 years at the time of her death. And Richard told the police that he was devastated by the loss of his wife. He loved her deeply. He hoped that the autopsy would shed some light on this mysterious illness that had plagued Janet. And Richard stayed on top of it. He called the investigators every day to see if the results of the autopsy had come back yet. And if the results from the toxicology report were in.

And what had that toxicology report said? Please, I'm dying to know what the toxicology report said. Was he a little over-interested? Every day he called, Kristen. But when the results were finally back, they weren't any closer to any kind of answer. Toxicology report came back normal. Autopsy came back inconclusive. And the cause of Janet's death was listed as unknown.

There was no explanation for why this 46-year-old woman had dropped dead in her driveway that day. No explanation for this weird illness that had been plaguing her for years. But there was also no evidence of any kind of foul play. And that was just kind of that. Until one day, when the police received a phone call from a concerned party.

Yeah, they were like, hey, have you looked into all of Robert's other ex-wives who were all dead now? So the woman that called the police was Dorothy Boyer and she was Robert's ex-wife. Oh, shit. And she told the police that they needed – his name is Richard. Oh, shit. I'm sorry. That's such a Kristen move. I'm sorry.

You know what's funny? I feel like sometimes when people are being sassy and they like intentionally call someone the wrong name. Let's pretend that's what I was doing. Yes. Anyway, Richard. Well, we could call him Dick if you'd like. I don't know that anybody else did. So his ex-wife, Dorothy Boyer, called the police and were like, you need to look into this.

I know exactly what Richard Overton is capable of. And they're like, tell us everything you know. And Dorothy told them that she knew what he was capable of because Richard had attempted to poison her. Shut up. According to Dorothy, she and Richard had been married like 20 years earlier. They'd had four children together. They'd had a seemingly happy marriage. Until one day, Dorothy discovered that Richard was living a double life.

He had another wife with whom he had another child. How do people even do this? So he had a wife and four children at home and then he had a second home that he would split his time with

where he had a second wife named Carolyn Hutchison and a child. I think her name might be Caroline. Did I say Caroline or Carolyn? You said Carolyn. It's Caroline. Okay.

Ba, ba, ba. What? Sweet. Caroline. Oh, okay. I'm sorry. Yeah. Boy, I'm just transported to a baseball game.

So when Dorothy found this out, do you know what she did? Divorced him. Yeah! She was like, fuck this. Okay. I am just so perplexed. I have no energy to do anything. No!

My one husband and my two dogs and two cats keep me very busy. Yeah. So she filed for divorce. Yeah. And in the divorce, she got to keep the house. And for some period of time, so this all happened, like the divorce was finalized in 1969. So this all happened, like the divorce was finalized in 1969. And she was awarded the house in the divorce.

But for some period of time, Richard was allowed to still live there. And then like even after he moved out, he was still allowed to have his visitations with his children there at the house. And during that time, suddenly, Dorothy became very ill. She suffered from nausea. Oh, my God. And fatigue and lethargy. And she got sores all over her body. Oh.

And so she became suspicious that Richard was doing something to her. And so it's a little bit confusing to me how this plan of action came to be. But she ended up taking her coffee, her coffee grounds that she made her morning coffee with every day, and marking the lid so that there was a mark on the part that came off and there was a mark on the part of the container that stayed in place so checked her coffee container and the lid had been removed and not placed in the same position. And so she took that coffee to the police and she asked them to test it. And they did. And they discovered massive amounts of selenium in it. What's that? So selenium is a mineral, I believe,

that is found in all of your multivitamins. There's some amount of it in everybody's bodies. But extreme amounts of selenium are toxic and can be fatal in large doses. Oh my God. So the police and Dorothy confronted Richard with all of this information, and he admitted that he'd been poisoning her. He'd been slowly poisoning her. Yes!

And the police were like, okay, now don't do this again. And Richard was like, all right, I won't do it again. And they're like, okay, if you go to counseling for this, we won't press any charges. And he was like, I'll for sure go to counseling. Oh, yeah, this is an attempted murder. And that was that? The fucking 60s, man. Man.

Yeah, come visit your kids. Yeah. In your old house that you no longer own. Yeah. And if you want to poison your wife, okay, but not for too long. Yeah. In your old house that you no longer own. Yeah. And if you want to poison your wife, okay, but not for too long. Okay, yeah. Do you super promise you're not going to do it again? Pinky promise?

This is infuriating. Uh-huh. And Dorothy agreed not to press any charges. She could have apparently been like, no, I want him charged with this, but she didn't want to put her children through that. And so... I think also when you're dealing with investigators who clearly don't give

much of a shit about this, then it almost feels weird if you care too much about it, you know? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So withhmm. Oh. Yeah.

So with that information, they decided to look into the relationship between Richard and Janet because that situation had been like the result of a divorce. And Janet and Richard weren't going through a divorce. They were happily married, weren't they? Oh, my God. I hate people. So they start looking into their relationship and they find out a couple things. First of all, their relationship was not great. Shut up.

Their son, Eric, is actually the one who at some point came forward to the police and was like, yeah, I think my parents were on the verge of divorce. Their relationship was not good. But the theory is that Janet was reluctant to give Richard a divorce because she had received a $100,000 inheritance from her mother and she didn't want to have to share it with him. Yeah. Yeah. And she didn't want to have to share it with him. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, the other thing is, if you think you're dealing with a really scary person, sometimes it's safer to stay with them. Yeah. So there have been a couple of instances of some weird things going on in Janet and Richard's relationship. Janet and Richard's relationship. So Richard was convinced that Janet had had multiple affairs over the time of their marriage. And the rumors of this were circulating through their community. And Janet, as you'll recall, was kind of a high profile member of the school board. One day after a school board meeting, everybody comes out to the parking lot and there's flyers on all of the cars. What did this man do?

Accusing Janet of being in an inappropriate relationship with some like assistant superintendent of the school district or something like that. And they were like, who would have done this? Let's get to the bottom of it. And Janet immediately was like, I think it was Richard. And so she went on his computer and she found the file. He had made the flyers. He put them on all the cars.

He had intended to embarrass her and ruin her reputation in the hopes that she would then be willing to go through with a divorce. Wow. Uh-huh. Yeah. So

police find that out. They get this statement from Eric that the relationship was not good. And so this is enough for them to get do some kind of search at Richard's house. One article says that Dorothy went into Richard's house during like one of their visitations when she like brought

one of their daughters over and that she recovered some evidence. Only one source says that. The other one says that the police made the discovery of this evidence. Either way, at some point, a search was performed. And in Richard's drawer, like in his desk, they found a syringe with selenium in it and Janet's eye makeup. Wow. Wow.

So, again, there's a little bit of some inconsistency here between sources. The Oxygen program says that it was her mascara that he was poisoning. Every other source says it was her eyeliner, which to me makes more sense because the idea is that he was poisoning her eyeliner. She was putting it on her skin every day and the poison was slowly seeping into her skin. Mascara doesn't come in contact with your skin necessarily. Right. So eyeliner makes more sense to me. And also it's horrifying.

Yeah. Because I can't go a day without my eyeliner. Or mascara. Right. You'd be screwed either way. I would be. Yeah. And so they find in his desk that he has selenium. He's got her eye makeup.

He's got a syringe. He's been slowly poisoning her for years. That is wild. In addition to that, they find journal upon journal upon journal that he has kept. He was a big journaler. But as he kind of found out that they were investigating him or maybe suspicious of him, he had started whiting out like big sections of his journal. And so they had to use the latest technology and they used lasers. Laser beams.

Yeah, they used laser beams to see through those layers. Why didn't he just burn them? Right? Or not write this shit down. This guy was tracking everything. He kept track of all of his bowel movements. No, he didn't. He sure did.

He kept track of any time Janet was anywhere. He noted the location she was at, when she'd been there, when she'd left. Oh, no. He talked about every argument they had in their relationship. And he made really kind of vague notes about how it would all be taken care of soon. And some of it seemed to be written in code. Some of it was written in Spanish. Some of it was written in Spanish. Some of it was written in Russian.

Yeah. Some of the journals were actually on his computer and he had deleted the files. And so they had to use cutting edge technology to recover those deleted files. Trash can icon. So everybody thinks this is what they said on the oxygen program. Everybody thinks when to delete something. Oh. Oh, wait, wait.

What? It's just gone. Right. But that's not how computers work. Shut up. On a computer, everything can be recovered. My God. This was kind of cutting-edge technology because we're talking about – it's like the late 80s at this point.

talking about it's like the late 80s at this point and so they had to like take the computer to like san francisco where they had a better lab and they were able they show on the show they show them actually like taking the motherboard out and like putting it into something i don't really know how it works did this make you nervous though about deleted files being able to be recovered well did it make you think about that photo shoot we did at the Waffle House? I know you thought you deleted that, but like, now you know. Now I know. Bill Ferguson took those photos so enthusiastically. So they become pretty convinced that Richard Overton had poisoned his wife.

But now they needed to prove it. Only Janet Overton had been cremated. Of course she had. He had seen to that immediately. But an autopsy had been completed. And in an autopsy, they take certain samples from the body and they preserve them. The autopsy had been completed and in an autopsy they take certain samples from the body and they preserve them. And so they'd had a more experienced medical examiner come in and look over those autopsy findings.

And he said the moment he opened the sample of the stomach contents. Did he smell something? He smelled almonds. Yes. Cyanide. Mm-hmm. He smelled almonds. Yes. Cyanide.

So cyanide wasn't tested for in the autopsy. This is not standard stuff they test for. They didn't test for selenium. They didn't test for cyanide. And I didn't know this. Not everybody can smell cyanide. It's a genetic thing. Oh.

Only certain people smell that almond smell if it's present. But this guy that they brought in, his name was Robert H. Cravey, said he is craving some almonds. He's of the group of people that can smell cyanide. And as soon as he opened that sample, he smelled it. And so they were able to run a tox screen on that. And it did. It came back positive for cyanide. Wow. So they believed that Richard had been slowly poisoning Janet, but that on that particular day, he'd been slowly

poisoning her with selenium, but on that particular day, he believed that the man they were going whale watching with was the man that Janet was currently having an affair with. He was done. He was done. And so he put cyanide in her orange juice that morning to finish her off. Oh. Mm-hmm. Yep. Poor Janet.

Yeah. They talk about this on the show about on the surface, this doesn't seem like the most diabolical crime. But when you talk about slowly poisoning your spouse and each day you watch them get sicker and sicker and you watch them suffer. I think it sounds plenty diabolical. Yeah. I can't say the word, but I think it. Yeah. Well, no.

And how terrible for the person. They think they're going crazy. Yeah. Yeah. She's seeing doctor after doctor. She like checked herself into this like experimental like medical facility two separate times and they were never able to find out what was going on with her. And sure, you think maybe you're married to a dick, but you don't think you're...

I mean, that is nuts. Mm-hmm. Ugh. Yeah. So following, obviously, all of the journals and the tests on the summit contents and all that, Richard was arrested and charged with first-degree murder. He pled not guilty.

And by the time of his trial, he was now married to his fourth wife. How? A woman named Carol Townsend. So the trial began, and, you know, the prosecution puts up all of their evidence about the journals and the autopsy and all of that. Their son testifies. How old was their son? So he was 18 at the time of his mother's death.

He was a senior in high school. He was about to graduate. And she was on the school board. So she was going to get to be the one to hand him his diploma at graduation. It was something she talked about constantly. She couldn't wait for that day. She was a very involved and doting mother. Her life was her son.

He cried on the stand. Of course. He said when he came to the realization that his father was the one who had taken the most important person in his life from him, it was just devastating. person in his life from him. It was just devastating. The trial went on for several weeks and seven weeks into the trial, Richard took the stand in his

own defense. Oh, good. Bring that bitch up on the stand. I bet he was so arrogant. He was. Super arrogant. So by this time, his ex-wife, Dorothy, had already testified. She testified about how she'd been previously poisoned by him and how he'd admitted to it. And so when he was on the stand during his cross-examination, the prosecution asked him about that. And he laughed.

He said it was a joke. What? It was just a neat little joke he played. Oh, yeah. Ha, ha, ha. Remember that time I attempted to kill you? Yeah. He said it was a neat joke that he played on her because he believed she was mistreating their children.

That makes no fucking sense. No fucking sense. And then he claimed that he absolutely did not, would not, could not. With a fox. Poison Janet. I could do it to the other one, but not this one. Yeah, but not Janet. Never Jan. That's what he called her, Jan.

The first time, it was just a fun joke. You guys aren't going to laugh when you hear this one. She was mistreating our children so I poisoned her coffee. Real D slapper. Yeah, the cops

didn't seem too worried about it either. So, his cross examination was not going well. Really? Mm-hmm. His third day that he was set to be cross-examined, he got up there on the stand and then— Wait, the third day of cross-examination?

Mm-hmm. Oh, that's beautiful. The prosecution had just left this. Uh-huh. He got up there on the stand. He was about to be questioned and, oh, what's this? He started to feel dizzy. Uh-oh.

Oh. A recess had to be taken. And Richard Overton was taken from the courtroom on a gurney. Oh, my God. That's like an old-timey trial. And I'm sorry, but only the ladies were allowed to faint in court and be taken out in a gurney. Claimed that he had suffered a heart attack. Okay, you can't just claim that.

Yeah, there was no medical proof that anything was wrong with him at all. But the trial was postponed for two months as he recovered. You can't give in to this guy. Yeah. Are you serious? Yes, the trial was in recess for two months.

While he recovered from an imaginary heart attack? From a fake heart attack. Uh-huh. And then, just as the trial was about to resume, the defense asked

for another continuation. No, you don't get one. You just got one. The defense attorney was not able to continue representing Richard because he was dealing from clinical depression and had admitted himself to a mental health facility. Wow. Yeah. And so a mistrial was declared. Shit.

Yes. At this point, the jury that had been, like, the trial had been stopped too long in order for the jury to be able to continue. And so a mistrial was declared. Several months went by and a new trial was started with a new jury. Several months went by and a new trial was started with a new jury. I hope that judge got a talking to about like postponing this for two months. That's nuts. Nuts.

Almonds. Yeah. Cashews. No, almonds because of cyanide. Har har. Hilarious poisoning. I don't think you did. I did.

I did get it. So now it's take two electric boogaloo. Same thing. The prosecution's like, yes, Richard murdered Janet. He did so by poisoning her over a long period of time with selenium that he was putting in her eye makeup. And then when she wasn't dying fast enough, he pushed her over the edge by poisoning her morning drink, we believe to be orange juice, with cyanide. He was able to have access to selenium and cyanide because he had a friend who owned a mining company and he had access to metallurgy. It's a word I've never heard, and every article includes it.

We're learning some new words today. Yes, we are. Frangible metallurgy. The jury was told that the cause of death had been changed from that first autopsy where it was undetermined to acute cyanide intoxication. And then, of course, Dorothy testified again about how she had been poisoned exactly like this years earlier, 20 years earlier. Again, they showed all the journals. They showed his coded writing where some of it was in Spanish.

Some of it was in Russian. Some of it was in English. They showed his writing styles where he took just extreme notes of every happening, every coming and going, everything. And that there were those hints to the poisoning scheme within those writings and how everything would be dealt with soon. The prosecution asked the jury to find Richard guilty of murder. They said that was the only explanation of how Janet could have died as a result of cyanide poisoning. But the defense disagreed.

They said the prosecution had it all wrong. That medical examiner had it all wrong. Everybody has a little bit of cyanide in their stomach. The levels present weren't enough to explain why Janet had died. Did an expert say this? Yes. They put an expert on the stand who said, yeah, you know, everybody's got a little bit of cyanide in there.

These levels totally in line with what a normal person would have in their body. This is not a lethal amount of cyanide. And so to rebut this during the rebuttal phase, the prosecution put their expert back up there and they're like, no, no, no, no, no. What you have here is the general like weaning off of cyanide as the sample sits. Oh. Yeah. So, yes, technically in this sample, it might not be a lethal cyanide amount, but that's because the level drops as the sample sits over time. Yeah.

Yeah, that makes total sense. Yes. Yes. Wow. Mm-hmm. The defense said that they didn't believe at all that Janet died of cyanide poisoning. She died of a heart attack. Like a fake heart attack?

The one that Richard had had during the first trial. Janet had been in poor health for years and obviously that had damaged her heart. Well, yeah, she'd been in poor health because she'd been poisoned for years by her husband. How long had he been doing this? Do you know? Everything just says years.

I mean, she'd been sick for, yeah. God. She'd been sick for, I don't know, three years, five years, something like that before her death. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. The defense did put that friend of Janet's, that superintendent, assistant superintendent or whatever, that Richard was sure she was having an affair with on the stand. And he did admit that, yeah, they had been having an inappropriate relationship.

That was it. I mean. Okay. Yeah. What do you do with that? Yeah. Not illegal. No.

The jury deliberated for only a short time before finding Richard Overton guilty of murder in the first degree. Good. He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole due to a special circumstance, which the special circumstance was the length of time that Janet had been poisoned for. Yeah, he tortured her. At his sentencing, Richard told the court that he was an innocent man. He said, the truth is I'm innocent. The truth is I never poisoned Jan Overton with anything at any time in any manner ever. I don't know what I can do. I'll pray and I'll do what I can to help the truth shine through the clouds.

Beautifully said. Richard maintained his innocence for the rest of his life. He died at the age of 81 in 2009 due to advanced dementia and complications from diabetes. advanced dementia and complications from diabetes. His fourth wife, Carol Townsend, stayed married to him until his death, and she believed he was an innocent man. She said at the time of his death, he was a wonderful man. He was a brilliant man. He did not kill his wife. She died of natural causes. The prosecution was overly aggressive and put out a lot of innuendo. Oh, man. I mean, we come across this sometimes where a woman gets with a guy while he's in prison.

Yeah. And I feel like all you can say is, like, you're so lucky. Yeah. That he was in prison. Yeah. Because you might have found out the hard way. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And that's the story of a mysterious illness. That is not mysterious. No. I hated mysterious. No. I hated that. Yeah. God, can you imagine being that first wife? No! And thank God she came forward.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, good for her. I mean, obviously she had been, I think they'd tried to downplay her experience to her. And, you know, yeah, I'm sure it is complicated when you've got children with a person. You just want to put something behind them, behind you. Behind somebody.

Behind anybody. Any damn body. Yeah. Well told, my friend. Thank you. Brandi, you know what we should do now? Take some questions from the Discord. We sure should.

To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And then you can ask us questions when we record and maybe we'll pick yours. Also, you get to talk to other people who are fans of the podcast. It's a good time. Everyone's wonderful. Okay. Carlos the Serial Killer asked, how did London learn to say ham like that? Okay.

So I posted this video today of London on my Instagram. London's new favorite word is ham. And the way she says it is hilarious. It's the longest, hardest H I've ever heard. She says, ham. It's so cute. To answer your question, Carlos the Serial Killer,

I have no idea why she says it that way. We have never said it that way. See, I assume that you say it that way as a joke. No. No. This is the London original. Neither David nor I have ever said Ham that way.

It's just how London feels about ham. She feels very strongly about it. Kind of how I feel about it. Ham. Ham. Anna asks, what songs do you have on repeat right now? Okay. Currently very into the song I Look Good by OT Genesis genesis okay this song is in an apple commercial

um david and i loved the commercial and then we have like not stopped listening to this song since we saw in the commercial in the commercial it's just like this little kid riding his bike around the neighborhood and this song plays in the background it's so fucking catchy uh-huh you gotta look it up okay i will i look good by ot genesis okay the other song that i have on repeat right now please nobody take my mom card away it. It's London's favorite song. She loves to dance to it. What is it? It's Drunk in Love, the remix. It's Beyonce with Kanye and Jay-Z.

Not appropriate subject matter at all. It's got a really good beat, and London loves to dance, and she loves it. Does she dance with ham? Yes. Very good. loves it. Does she dance with ham? Yes! Very good. Okay, we talked about this a little before, but Kristen, this is for you. Are you watching Celebrity Big Brother and did you hate it with the rest

of us? Did you hate it with the rest of us? Yeah. Apparently nobody liked this season of Celebrity Big Brother. Yeah, so I don't want to give spoilers, but like they got rid of like the most entertaining people right off the bat. And so then you're left with a bunch of lame-os. Yeah. And I'm sorry, Lamar Odom does not understand what is happening. Okay, I, like I said, have not watched the show.

I did read an article, though, that he literally shit the bed on the show. Yeah, and you know what? Because CBS, they're cowards. They didn't include that in the episodes. I saw that. I was like, I can't wait for the episode where Lamar shits the bed. And then they didn't include it. And you know I was watching.

Of course you were. Yeah, no, I mean, here's the thing. How does the man understand basketball? Doesn't understand Celebrity Big Brother? Yeah, like he doesn't get the rules. He doesn't? No. Todd from, you know, what you're talking about, Willis,

I don't know this guy. I mean, I'm too young and hot to know who he is. But Todd has to like keep explaining the rules to Lamar over and over again. Oh no. It's humiliating. Oh no. Anyway,

when Carson was voted out, a part of me died inside because he's the only entertaining one in the bunch. Anyway, I'm fine. It's fine. Lucifer 1918 wants to know, Kristen, have you read the Wheel of Time series? No. I'm about halfway through the first book and really enjoying it. Okay, so it's like a – I think it's a fantasy series.

David has read them. Okay. And they've just – they made it into a show. The show has just started. So David, I know, read the books, really enjoyed them. And then now he's watching the show. So is that the end of the story? That's the whole story.

Oh, oh, Brass Pearl, why don't you punch me right in the skunch? Brass Pearl asks, what is the name of Kristen's book? I want to read it. Well, I wish you could, Brass Pearl, why don't you punch me right in the skunch? Brass Pearl asks, what is the name of Kristen's book? I want to read it. Well, I wish you could, Brass Pearl. Got myself an agent. Couldn't get myself a publisher. Don't worry, I'm working very slowly on the second one. So maybe someone will publish that one and, you know, just hang tight.

and, you know, just hang tight. Creamy Steamy Skunch wants to know, Brandy, who's your second favorite NSYNC member? Obviously Joey Fatone because he's the funny one. Really? Yeah. I loved Joey Fatone. Okay. He also hosted a game show on the Game Show

Network for a while. Now the name of it is escaping me. Common Knowledge, maybe. Okay. He did pretty good. What do you mean? He was just the host. Yeah.

I mean, yeah, he's the host. He has to ask the questions and everything. I thought he was a – you can't just put any – Yeah. – fucking automaton up there and just like. What's an automaton? Isn't that a robot? I don't know.

Did he do like the Steve Harvey? Steve Harvey always makes those faces that people love. Yeah. Yeah. He did some faces. Not like Steve Harvey level, but. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The structure of the show wasn't great. Are you worried about offending Joey? Maybe. Do you think Joseph is listening right now? Joseph Fatone, famously huge fan of the podcast. Famously very sensitive. Also, never mind.

What? What? The questions were too easy. Well, it was common knowledge. But then the people didn't get them right. Oh, so it's like a bunch of dumbasses. I see. I see that would be frustrating.

Betty White shit on my coat said, have you ever gone on a girl's trip together? If so, where? Yes, we've been on many a trip together. Many. Many. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Branson, quite a few times. Multiple times to Branson. They had some great

outlet malls and, you know, women be shopping. We went to Florida together. Where else have we been together? I guess we've been camping all over the place. Camping all over the place, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Knob Noster. Ever heard of it? No. Stephanie, short for Peggy, wants to know, Brandy, I want to start online dating, but I'm scared because you hear all these stories about girls getting kidnapped and killed. Were you afraid when you first tried online dating? Now think back, Brandy, to your ho phase.

My ho phase. Here's the deal. Yes, I think it can be very scary. But as a fan of true crime myself, and I assume you as a listener are a fan of true crime. No, they're just white knuckling through this podcast. You know what to do. When I tell you that I had David completely checked out before we ever met in person, I knew his last name before he told me his last name. You just got to get to Googling.

And it's really good because then you can also cross verify the shit that they're telling you. Yeah. So, you know, you find out some facts about them and then you plant little seeds, questions in your conversations. Make sure the information matches up. What's your social security number? What are your last seven addresses?

Am I right? Yeah, that's exactly what I asked. Could I get a stool sample? All normal stuff. And if he's who he says he is, he will comply. That's right. Great expectations. Have you ever had to fire someone at work?

If so, how did you get through it? I've had to fire lots of people as I was a district manager for several years. It's terrible every time. Yeah. But in that particular company, each person was given approximately 50 million chances to correct their behavior before they were fired. And the rules were very clear, like you had to be over 5'4 or you were fired. What? I'm sorry. I just like the idea of you setting it up like you're being really fair and then it's just like, you're too short for this job. You're too short for this job. You're too short for this job.

And I told you you were too short and yet you come in here today still too short. I've never had to fire anyone. Quite wisely, no one has ever put me in a management position. Okay, I think this is a really weird and random question, but it sparked something in my mind. So Funny Bunny wants to know, would you rather capture a wild raccoon or a possum? Oh, God. Raccoons are super aggressive. Possums are not.

So I'd rather catch a possum. But raccoons are cuter. Way cuter. Yes. I watched this TikTok just yesterday. I laughed so hard. And I had to show it to David. Okay.

This woman came out to, like like pull her trash cans in. And when she looked down, there was a raccoon trapped in her trash can. And so it's like sitting there with its little thingies and looks so cute with its little mask on its face. And she's like, oh, my gosh. Oh, you're so cute. You're trapped. Oh, lady. And she's looking up at her with it's cute eyes

and she's like don't worry don't worry I'm gonna get you out of there little buddy and so she she like

it's like looking you know it's like oh great please please please let me out of here

and so she tilts the trash can down so that it can get out and the second it gets to the top it turns

and charges her and goes, Yeah, they're really scary! That lady must live in a city or something. I believe so. No. What would you do? You come out and there's a possum in your trash can. You call animal control?

Literally, this has happened to me before. It has? A possum was in my recycling bin. I freaked out. Freaked out! What did possum do? Nothing. It played possum.

So Norm was like more level-headed and was just like, hey, it's fine. And then he tipped the recycling bin over and left it. And then the possum waddled out at some point or disappeared. We have no idea if it was a magic possum. Anyway, that's the end of the story. My sister is a possum. She bought a house that needed like a bunch of work done to it. And shortly after they bought it, like they discovered that there was no chimney cap on top.

Oh, shit. So they had to get a chimney cap put in. They got the chimney cap put in. And that trapped in the possum. It trapped a whole litter of baby raccoons. Oh, no. And that trapped in the posh. It trapped a whole litter of baby raccoons. Oh, no. But it trapped the mom outside the chimney. Oh, my gosh.

And the mom, sadly, was killed in a horrible accident involving a dog. And then they just had all these baby raccoons in their fireplace. Just a bunch of dead baby raccoons. They were alive. Well, yeah, but I mean, didn't they need their mom? So they boxed them up and they took them to a wildlife refuge. Wow. Yeah.

My brother-in-law drove like two hours to take them to somebody who would take them in and take care of them. Wow, that's very sweet. I mean, no idea what happened after he took them there. Like, we don't get updates on them or anything. Like, little Jim's, like, learned to play the banjo or anything. He is the most talented one. The others just sit around in a pair of jorts, smoke tobacco. That's right.

Anyway, should we move on to Supreme Court Inductions? I'll warn you, I have not done anything to fix this list. That's fine. I've been um... What? Christianized. I know what one we're on. Oh, we're on 202. This is how we do it. Alright, we will be

reading your names and favorite cookies. Ashley Hines. Shortbread cookies. Zanna W. Butterscotch oatmeal cookies only made by Shane. You've never had my oatmeal scotchies, Shane. I don't know that Shane listens to this podcast, but if you ever want to do a bake-off, let me know. Reach out.

Yeah, yeah. Motherfucker. I don't know why I'm puffing my chest out. Because your oatmeal scotchies are really good. They are really good. Whitney Brown Stone Cipher. Ginger Snaps. Jessie Jane.

Mom's Homemade Corn Flake Cookies. What's that? I don't know. I don't know. Freddie Sackman. Bourbon Biscuits. Maria Sackman. Bourbon biscuits. Maria Hennig. Christmas cookies.

Andy. Moose shit cookie made with oats and coconut with chocolate and shaped as piles of poop. Well. I don't want to eat poop cookies. I think you don't want to, but then if it was in front of us, we would eat them. You're right. Shannon. Oatmeal raisin. to, but then if it was in front of us, we would eat them. Shannon! Oatmeal raisin.

I said it that way because she put an exclamation point after me. Yeah, I got it. I'm totally with you. Valeria. Chocolate chip. Specifically, those served by Burbank Unified School District. Oh, yeah. Don't act like you know the Burbank Unified School District. Okay, everybody knows a school chocolate chip cookie.

Yeah, that's true. Ours were so good. They were delicious. Angie Schultz. Oatmeal scotchies. Fancy pants. Snickerdoodle. Fully adieu.

Soft, chewy cinnamon cookie. Erin. Fudgy chocolate chip brownies. Erica Christian. Pepperidge Farm Milano's dipped in coffee. Oh, fuck. Dipped in coffee? Have you never done that? No. You gotta

live! People are dipping cookies in coffee? Well, yeah! I bet that's delicious. It is! What are you talking about? I've never eaten a cookie with coffee. Brandy. Jeez. Sarah. Brown butter,

brown sugar cookies. Easy for you to say. Shelby Groover. Chocolate chip. Amy Lenartz. Undercooked chocolate chip. Oh yeah. Welcome to the Supreme Court.

Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics.

Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of American Justice titled The Wells Fargo Heist, along with reporting by Michael Kiefer and Dennis Wagner for the Arizona Republic. I got my info from ChillingCrimes.com, an episode of the real murders of Orange County, Mamma Mia, and the Los Angeles Times. For a full list of our sources visit lgtcpodcast.com any errors are of course ours

but please don't take our word for it go read their stuff