Let's Go To Court! - 210: A Cool Teacher & Teenaged Love

Episode Date: April 13, 2022

PSA: If you haven’t Googled that “cool” teacher from high school, go ahead. We’ll wait.  Douglas Le had a reputation for being the cool teacher at Gilroy High School. He was young and highly educated. He could relate to his students! He told hilarious, edgy jokes! He joked about the size of his students’ genitals. He joked about having sex with their moms. In the fall of 2014, one mother alerted the school district to Douglas Le’s behavior. They didn’t listen.  Then Brandi tells us a very on-brand story. It was September 2, 2003. Sarah Johnson ran to a neighbor’s house in a panic. Her parents, Diane and Alan Scott Johnson were dead in their bedroom. When investigators arrived on the scene, they got there just in time to stop a garbage truck from taking evidence from the crime scene. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The Web of Lies episode “The Enemy Within” “Ex-Campbell teacher who catfished students arrested again on teen sex allegations,” by Robert Salonga for the Mercury News “Gilroy sex offender teacher set free,” by Jack Foley for the Gilroy Dispatch “At school, he was the ‘cool’ teacher. Online, police say, he was a student-seducing porn star,” by Peter Holley for the Washington Post In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Disrobed” episode Forensic Files “Love Interrupted- Diane and Alan Johnson Murders” episode 20/20 “Couple’s killer wore bathrobe backwards, says” by Patti Murphy, The Times-News “Conflicting evidence brought at Johnson Trial” Associated Press, South Idaho Press “Family gets day in court” by Patti Murphy, The Times-News “Bellevue, Idaho” wikipedia.org “Teen Charged With Parents’ Gruesome Murder” by Elizabeth R. Grodd and Jeffrey L Diamond, ABC News “The Johnson Family Murders” by Emily Thompson, Morbidology “Sarah Marie Johnson” murderpedia.org “Sarah Marie Johnson v. State of Idaho” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

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August 17th. Get your tickets now at kingsplay.com. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court.

On this episode, I'll be talking about a cool teacher. And I'll be talking about a cool teacher. And I'll be talking about teenage love. Young love. Kristen and I can't help but know she got a new water bottle this week. Shut up. Okay, everybody.

First of all, we're not sponsored. Yet. Fuck. As soon as free stuff, a wallah. Yeah, Brandy bragged about her stupid water bottle the other week, about how it's so easy to sip out of, and I was like, that's dumb. Yeah. Water bottles aren't hard to sip out of.

But Norm got one. He was like, this is really easy to drink out of. And so I got one, and I do love it. In your fucking face, Kristen! You know, for someone who's about to literally explode out of any end, you're pretty smug, I gotta say. We ate some Mexican food for lunch, and then we sat down. Sat town? Sat town.

Sat down to record, and my stomach is a rumbling, so we shall see what happens. This episode's going to sound really choppy. Patty just has to do that, right? Oh, Brandi, we hope you can hold it together. Don't worry. Our episodes are only like two or three hours long. Right. Just have to keep it together for four hours.

No big deal. It's no big deal. I am, however, trying this new delicious beverage. Okay. Also not sponsored. Also not sponsored. You guys tried Coke with coffee yet? You guys tried cock?

Yes. Sorry. Anybody tried cock yet? You ever put cock in your mouth? Turns out it's not bad. No. Coffee with, or Coke with coffee. Jesus, why can't I say it right?

Because you're thinking about cock. It's all the time. All day I dream about sex. That's what Adidas stands for. No, that's something that you said when you were 11. Yeah, that's what people said. They're like, did you know that Adidas stands for. No, that's something that you said when you were 11. Yeah, that's what people said. They're like, did you know that Adidas stands for all day I dream about sex? Yeah.

It's wild and true. Anyway, Norm and I had to run to Quick Trip to try this new Coke with coffee. It's pretty good. Reminds me of a cappuccino jelly belly. Kristen got a black cold brew. I'm sorry. Is there something wrong? No, how is it?

It's good. Wonderful. I'm very happy for you. Are you? You seem a little. No, I'm nothing. I got that right. That's right.

Woo, you ready for this? No, you know what I'm nothing. I'm got that right. That's right. Are you ready for this? No, you know what I am ready for, though? What? To talk about our Patreon. Oh, right. Yes. Thank you. Because I am a business cat with a tiny top hat on my head.

Actually, you think it's on there. I put it on my tits. I took it off when you weren't looking. Everyone, you gotta join our Patreon. All the cool kids are doing it. Yep. Also, they're having sex and doing drugs. Yeah.

And they're all jumping off cliffs, so you know what to do. Yeah, so skip all that and just join our Patreon. At the $5 level, you get a monthly bonus episode. You also get instant access to the whole backlog. Backlog. It's a load and a log, and there's 33 of them is what you really need to know.

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And at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level, you get all that plus ad-free episodes a day early and 10% off on merch. That's right. That is right. So don't delay. Join our Patreon today. Wow. That's right. I wrote that.

You did not. All right. All right. You did not. All right. All right. Here we go. Tell us about a really cool teacher who is probably banging his students. Wow. First of all, I have to apologize for my co-host.

Everyone, in a recent episode, Brandy used the term draftsman, but should have used the term draftsperson. Oh, gee. She is and always has been a sexist asshole. What? And as the Grace Kelly of podcasting, it's on my shoulders to keep this podcast classy. It is a heavy weight and yet

I wear it so well. My sincerest apologies. Evidently, a draftswoman was listening to a recent episode. Did you see this feedback? No.

Oh, someone was like, oh, I'm a draftswoman. So, anyway, you're a sexist asshole. Okay. They didn't say that. I'm saying it to you. Oh, okay, great.

If you want to thank me for, like, really, you know, just keeping this thing afloat, now would be the time, Brandi. Uh-huh. Just wait for it. Uh-huh. Thanks, Kristen. Shout out to, you ready? Yeah.

The Web of Lies episode, The Enemy Within. This is going to be terrible. Oh, great. Because I've got a real lighthearted one here for the end. Well, yeah, I mean, you can never be relied on for a light one. No, sure can't. That's not my style. Okay.

Picture it. Gilroy, California. Population, 56,000. Gilroy is part of the San Francisco Bay Area. And, yeah, it's the garlic capital of the world. Have we talked about Gilroy before? I think we have. This sounds so familiar, doesn't it?

Like how often do we talk about garlic capitals? I don't know. We've talked about a horseradish capital. Oh, maybe that's what I'm thinking of. Maybe that's what we're thinking of. Because I tried to find garlic capital in my notes. No. I think we talked about, which was Dixon

is the horseradish capital. How could I forget? Yeah. How could anyone forget? No one can. Rita Crunwell reminds us all of it. Anyway. Gilroy, as I'm sure you're aware,

produces 90% of America's garlic. Okay, this is like, sub out the word garlic for horseradish. Yeah, this is a lot. This is exactly this, yeah. Gilroy what? What state? California. Okay, great.

It's home to the Gilroy Garlic Festival, where you can eat all kinds of garlicky foods, including garlic ice cream. Sounds terrible. Yeah, if you think that sounds bad, you should know that there was a mass shooting at the 2019 Gilroy Garlic Festival, and three people died. Oh, gosh. Yeah, which was the last thing I expected to read when I Googled Gilroy Garlic Festival. But here we are. I've got an interesting piece of information for you.

What? We've started our cases exactly the same this week. Are you serious? Yeah. Wait, is yours in Gilroy? No, but I start by like, the town of blah, blah, blah. Is there a mass shooting? No.

Just a festival? You know, stuff happens there. All right. I guess I'll wait. Yeah. Keep your pants on. Or your shirt. I'm not wearing pants. Keep your shirt on, Kristen.

Okay. I can do that. Unless you're taking a real tough poop. Okay. We've got to pause. We've got to pause. Everyone, our minds have been blown. Oh, my gosh.

And ladies, I think your minds will be blown, too. Men, we just don't know about you folk. Okay, let me pull this up real quick. Okay, everyone. This week, Norman sent me a tweet. The tweet was, my boyfriend just took his shirt off to take a shit. I've never heard of this. Is this a thing? And someone retweeted it and said that man was fighting for his life. And Norm told me that he had done this before. Yeah. And I was like, what? And he explained that sometimes when you take a real big dumparoo, you got to take your shirt off.

Right. Which is insane to me. And I was just like, that, no. No, that's not a thing. No way. There's no way that's a thing. So Brandy comes over today. I'm like, Brandy, you're not going to believe what Norman told me.

He tells you. We're both like, no. No. No, that's nuts going to believe what Norman told me. He tells you. We're both like, no. No. No. That's nuts. No one does that. Right.

So then I text David. And I was like, okay, question for you. Have you ever taken such a ferocious dump that in the middle of it you were forced to remove your shirt? And I was like, he's going to say no. Of course. Like 100% he's going to say no.. And I was like, he's going to say no. Of course, yeah. Like 100% he's going to say no. Norm's like, no, he's going to say yes. He's totally going to say yes.

So we're waiting. We're waiting. David responds. He said, yeah, I have. What the fuck? Everyone, our minds are blown. Do all dudes do this? I have no idea.

Please reach out. No idea. I would have, no. I've never heard of this before. I know, I'm dumbfounded. Me too. I almost can't even talk about it. Anyway, we need more people to weigh in.

Have you ever, have you or, you know, someone close to you ever been? Do it like a 90s talk show. Have you or someone you love had to remove your shirt during a gigantic dump? Reach out. Let us know. I can't wait to get the feedback on this. I know. I know.

It's very important that we did this at the top of the show. Of course it is. OK. Sorry. Back to Gilroy. Okay. So, sorry, this is going to be awful. It was September of 2014, and Celeste Benn and her family moved to Gilroy from the Atlanta, Georgia area.

They moved because of her husband's job. He worked in the automobile industry. And if you'd like more information than that, too bad. I can tell you all about the terrifying garlic... Oh no, shit. I'm like a robot. I'm short-circuiting.

I was sent here to destroy you. I can't tell you shit about Celeste's husband. Okay, great. But I can tell you're interested. Does he take his shirt off? When he takes a dump. Who knows? The world may never know.

I'm going to assume yes now. Seems like every man does it. I've taken a sample of, I shouldn't say taken a sample when we're talking about poo samples. You know what? I'm done. Done. We're done. We're going on a classier road.

That's right. I can tell you that Celeste is very cool, and her voice sounds exactly like Norm's Aunt Janine's voice. Okay. We all know what she sounds like. Wonderful. Okay, for real. So Norm's Aunt Janine, she was born in New York, lived in New York forever, then moved to North Carolina, has lived in North Carolina forever. And I'm thinking Celeste must be originally from New York.

There's no way she's from Atlanta. Okay. This has really nothing to do with the episode, but you just need to know. What her voice sounds like. That when someone goes from New York to the south for many years, I want them to record audio books. You like the way it sounds. I love it. Oh, okay. It's like a little bit of an attitude, a little bit tough, but slow.

Okay, great. Know what I mean? Sure. You don't. You don't. I don't. I've never heard Norm's aunt talk. All right, well, you can come to Christmas. Leave your baby and David here.

Yeah, exactly. Come to Christmas with us. So they moved to Gilroy, and her daughter Zoe wasn't thrilled. Zoe was 14, so this was a big change, and she was a city girl. In Zoe's words, Gilroy was a one-horse, two-cow town. Oh. I know. Is that what she called?

I've heard of one-horse town. Yeah, one-horse town. I've never heard of a one-horse, two-cow town. Well. Okay. But the family did their best to settle into their new home. One of the first things they did was check out where Zoe would be going to school. She'd be going to Gilroy High School, home of the Mustangs.

Oh. Heidi, Heidi, Heidi, ho! Mill Creek Mustangs on the go! What was the rest of that chant? Heidi, Heidi, Heidi, he. Mill Creek Mustangs gotta pee. No, you're making

things up. I don't remember. We're not allowed to pee. Heidi, Heidi, Heidi ho, Mill Creek Mustangs on the go. Bum-a-bum, other schools don't have our spirit. Bum-a-bum. Anyway, I'm sorry to all of you who wanted to hear the entire chant from our elementary school it's too bad we can only give you part of it anyway they were the mustangs and it appears that one of their colors was also navy blue so

okay i think they stole that from Mill Creek Elementary School. I have to go to the bathroom. Okay. Just as long as you don't poo your pants. I know. Okay. So she'd be going to Gilroy High School. And that was a great thing because Gilroy seemed like a very good school.

They had this incredible science program. They offered a lot of higher level classes. And that really appealed to Zoe because she had dreams of one day becoming the first woman of color marine biologist. Wow. Are there not any women of color marine biologists? I'm not up on my marine biologists. Neither am I. But it hasn't been done yet? I don't know.

What year is it? 2012? It was 14. Okay. I was close. I don't know. What year is it? 2012? It was 14. Okay. I was close. I don't know. I couldn't name you a white man marine biologist. Oh, that is really sad.

We should start a scholarship for white males. Let's not. No, I just used that as an example. I don't know any marine biologists, so I'm not – I apologize. How many draftsmen can you name? None. Oh, no. I can name one.

Yeah. Yeah. His name was James Rupert, and he killed a whole bunch of people. Wow. Way to leave out the fact that he was a very good draftsman. He was a skilled draftsman. And we have that listener who's a skilled draftswoman. You know, I just say draftsperson.

Draftsperson. That's right. Because I'm. Better than me. Yes. Yeah, so she wanted to be in a submarine as far down in the ocean as possible, which I think sounds terrifying. Mariana Trench. What?

Challenger Deep. Is she some lady who... Those are places. What was that about you being better than me? Challenger Deep is a place? Yeah. Where?

It's the deepest part of the ocean. I'm pretty sure. All right. What if I made that up? You didn't. You've got to be right on that. And other people are listening to this like, how does Kristen not know about Challenger Deep? Would you ever get into a submarine?

No. I mean, I wouldn't go that. No. No. No. I don't even like to snorkel, to tell you the truth. I've never been snorkeling. It's way scarier than you think.

I think it is scary. I don't think I want to do it. But I mean you look down and all of a sudden you're like, holy shit. There's a lot going on down here. Yeah, there's all kinds of animals in there. Yeah. You know what? I'm never going to be just like walking along and an animal is going to brush my foot, I don't think.

But you could do that. You could just be swimming along the ocean and the animal just touches your foot. I don't want to do that. Okay. So no. Let it be known. Yeah. I kind of – I get what you're saying.

Like if a shark is going to bite me, I want it to be by surprise. I – okay. No. See, I'm the opposite me, I want it to be by surprise. Okay. No. See, I'm the opposite. I don't want to be in any water that I can't see clearly around me. Really? You wouldn't just like get in the ocean? Like let's say you're on a yacht.

Jeff Bezos invites you on his yacht. Jeff Bezos obviously invites me out. No. Jeff Bezos, first of all, is parking his yacht in the clearest of waters. So, yes, I'd get in the water off of Jeff Bezos' yacht. All right. But I'm not getting in the fucking Lake of the Ozarks, I'll tell you that. You know what happens in the Lake of the Ozarks.

You look over, you think there's like a log next to you. It's a dead body. No, it's a piece of poop. I mean, probably in the Lake of the Ozarks. Yes. Oh, we live in a delightful part of the country. So anyway, she wanted to go deep down in the ocean. Not me. No.

So that fall, Zoe began high school and settled in really well. First off, it helps that she's cute. She seems really fun. Plus, she all zoe began high school and settled in really well first off it helps that she's cute uh she seems really fun plus she had those braces with the clear bands oh yeah very cool she was also active in school she was in the school play um don't ask me which one i just saw a picture and she had you know that fake ivy stuff in her hair and like a little crown so i assume you know pretty good role yeah you think she was doing like a Caesar thing? No, I think it was death of a salesman.

Yeah, I imagine it was probably some kind of Shakespeare thing. Yeah. She got good grades. What an asshole. And her teachers were great. In fact, she had this really cool teacher for chemistry, don't she? Oh, no. Oh, so you don't support teachers?

Wow. I love teachers. You're against public school teachers? I don't like teachers who abuse their children. No, this is a cool one. I don't know what your problem is. Okay. By the way, people are going to think, wait, have I heard this story before?

No, I think just a lot of stories about creepy teachers start out with he was the coolest guy he was super cool and everybody liked him which yeah yep last time i covered a case like this brandy and i were like oh my gosh you know who who was like that it was. Patty, please bleep his name. And then Brandy looked him up later, and he had been forced to resign from the school. Yeah, and forfeit his teaching license. So, yep. So go ahead and Google the cool teacher from high school.

Yeah, see what you find. So this cool teacher was Douglas Lay. And Mr. Lay was a big deal. He graduated from UC Berkeley with a bachelor's degree in chemistry, and he'd gotten his master's from Brown University. Oh, shit. Yeah. So he was, like, 24, really smart, very accomplished, and he taught chemistry and biotechnology and environmental science. And silence.

Environmental silence. And if you couldn't pass that class, I mean, what the fuck? You just had to sit there. Anyway, he was also. Environmental silence. He also coached the track team. The kids really liked him. He was a lot different from your typical lame-ass teacher.

Am I right? He was super cool, and you could talk to him about anything. Oh, my God. He was so casual and fun. He invited kids over to his house on the weekends. No, no, no. Well, I'm sure he did. See, the thing is, Brandi, he related to the kids.

He had all these hilarious, edgy jokes. Oh, oh my God. That's just like our cool teacher. Yeah. Who talked about his wife. Wife being a fire crutch. Yeah. And also talked about how he had a latex allergy and how he found out he had a latex allergy.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Weird. Who could have guessed that guy was a creep? Not us in 2002. Zoe started off doing really well in his class. She had an A, maybe an A plus, actually. She started off doing really well in his class. She had an A, maybe an A plus actually. But all of a sudden her grade dropped over the course of like three weeks. All of a sudden she had a C. So she went yet, Brandy. You don't have to make that face yet. I mean, I guess it's okay

to be prepared. Everyone, she's just like, leaning away from the mic. What you did is everyone, she's just, and then you just made the face. They also can't see you. But they picture me always. So she saw a few other students there, including her friend Manny.

And, you know, I don't know. I assume they just started doing their homework. Mr. Lay's walking around, being cool, offering help. Put his dong on her desk. Ew, Brandy. God damn it. Jesus. And all of a sudden, Zoe got a text from Manny. It read, I like possum eggs.

What? Yeah. You know, or some like dumb little something. She's kind of like, okay, whatever. I don't know. I guess she's thinking like, you know how in, okay, whatever. I don't know. I guess she's thinking like, you know how in high school, like, I don't know, you send each other dumb stuff. I like possum eggs. You used to tell me all the time, I like pants.

Yeah, that's, I still, I stand by that statement. Well, maybe this fella likes possum eggs. Okay, great. Do possums lay eggs? I don't think so. So there's a lot to dissect eggs. Okay, great. Do opossums lay eggs? I don't think so. So there's a lot to dissect there. Okay. Are opossums mammals or marsupials?

I didn't know about the deepest part of the ocean. You expect me to know that question? We're getting like way beyond my level of expertise. Okay. Which is mostly limited to RuPaul's Drag Race. So, you know, she looks up and realized that her teacher, Douglas Lay, was holding—whoops. Hmm. A very loud water bottle.

I found a flaw. Made a really loud noise when I scraped it. Yeah, because your other water bottle never made any noises. You had very strong feelings about my water bottle. That was the loudest fucking water bottle on the planet. It's not like we had a podcast together, so I don't know what your problem is. Anyway, you should know that I still have that one. I didn't think you got rid of it because I know you.

Yeah. And I'm smart for not getting rid of it because, like, see, when this one's dirty, oh, boom, got my old one. Yes. That one's dirty. Oh, boom, got the new one. Oh, there's that loud noise again. Boy. Hmm.

Never take you up on a recommendation again. So, you know, she realizes it's Douglas Lay holding Manny's phone. He was the one who texted her that hilarious message. So, all right, you know, that was kind of whatever. So we got back to work on her homework. But then she got a slew of new texts, all from her teacher. Here's what they said. I am cyberbullying you now.

You suck dick. Go to hell. Poo-poo in you. You'll die alone. Yeah, your whore mouth can fit whole apples in there. What? Yeah. It's what a teacher sent to a 14-year-old student. Oh, my God.

You seem alarmed, but remember he's cool. Okay. Yeah. So – this is so sad. Zoe was shocked and ashamed. She wondered if she'd done something wrong. Yeah. So, this is so sad. Zoe was shocked and ashamed. She wondered if she'd done something wrong. Yeah. Had she dressed in a way that gave her teacher the wrong idea?

Had she said something that gave him the wrong idea? That's horrible. No, of course she didn't. He's a creep. Yes. Either way, when Zoe got home that day, she called her mom and said she had a problem in chemistry and she didn't know how to deal with it. So Celeste was driving home from San Francisco and she's like, OK, no big deal. I'll be home in like 20 minutes.

I'll help you with it when I get home. A few minutes later, Celeste got home and saw that Zoe was so upset, like she had tears in her eyes. And Celeste was like, well, chemistry can't be all that bad, right? And Zoe said, I need to show you some messages from my phone. She forwarded the messages to her mom and Celeste began reading them.

And as she got to the last one, she dropped the phone and cracked the screen zoe said that her mom froze for like a second and then flew into action celeste later said i don't care what you do to me but you do not do anything to my family he picked the wrong girl the wrong daughter the wrong, and he didn't see us coming out of the woods for him. Mmm. Shit. Love, Celeste.

Yeah. So as soon as she came out of her shock, Celeste told Zoe, okay, I'm going up to the school. She drove up there telling herself, okay, okay, don't yell at anyone. Don't attack anyone. Right, yeah. Celeste got to Douglas Lay's classroom. The door was open. Oh, shit, yell at anyone. Don't attack anyone. Right, yeah. Celeste got to Douglas Lay's classroom. The door was open. Oh, shit, I'm sorry.

I forgot to silence my phone. I'm very popular. That was my front door camera letting me know that someone is walking by my home. Anyway. So the door was open. Yeah. He had no door camera on his classroom yeah so she just walks in and she lit into him she said what on god's green earth possessed you to go and send these types of texts to my daughter why do you think this is funny or appropriate and douglas lay started crying what i thought he'd be like i have no idea what you're talking about i didn't send anything no that shocked me too yeah so he starts crying and he apologized but she wasn't having any any it. She was like, no, what you did was wrong.

You can't apologize your way out of this. My dude, you told a 14-year-old girl you suck dick. Yet you need to find a new line of work. Yeah. From there, Celeste went to the principal's office. She wanted the principal, Marco Sanchez, to see exactly what Douglas Lay had written to her daughter. But apparently the principal just refused to see her. What?

Celeste was stunned. But also a badass. So she was like, fine. So she got into her car and she drove down to the gilroy unified school district office go talk to the superintendent fuck yeah uh-huh so she showed the text to someone in the head office i'm not sure who exactly but you know now it's in the school district's hands. What do you think they did? Nothing. What should they have done?

They should have suspended the teacher initially, done an investigation, and then he should have lost his job. And also the principal should have been investigated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because why the hell – I want to know more about that. Yeah. But yeah, the teacher should have been suspended that day while an investigation was started. Yeah. And talking about someone's whore mouth.

A 14-year-old's whore mouth. Yeah. Goodbye. Yeah. Well, Brandi, you sound like a real hard ass. Here's what the school district did instead. Okay, great. And I think this is pretty tough.

You ready? Woo-hoo. They gave him a notice of unprofessional conduct. No. Yeah, what the fuck is that? It's a nothing. It's a piece of paper in your file. Yeah.

Yeah, that's jack shit. Yeah. Word got out about this incident and it became the source of school gossip. And everyone sided with the cool teacher. Zoe's peers were mad at her for getting their favorite teacher in trouble. I mean, it's hard enough to go to a new school, but like you've got this. I also think it's no coincidence that he did this to a new kid. Yeah. My last case like this, it was a new student. Yeah.

I don't think this is a coincidence at all. Not at all. They don't have friends yet to go to or not real close friends. Yeah. Easy to single out. They're super vulnerable. Yes, a vulnerable student. Fuck this guy.

Yeah. They're super vulnerable. Yes, a vulnerable student. Fuck this guy. Yeah. As a result of all this bullying, Celeste and her husband decided to transfer Zoe to the other high school in town, Christopher High School. Christopher? Yeah.

Who's it named after? I don't know. You can't just call it Barbara High School. You can't just call it Christopher High School. Well, it's probably Christopher Columbus or something terrible. It probably is. There. Are you happy now? I am.

Now we've mentioned a mass shooting, Christopher Columbus, and this terrible douchebag. Great. Maybe I can say other terrible things. Wonderful. Who knows? Yeah. So, you know, she transfers to this new school, but it's a really small town. And so she basically got the same treatment at her new school.

She was the liar. She couldn't be trusted. Zoe became so depressed. She said, there's something in the water here. Maybe it's the garlic. I don't know. The people here are just awful. Wow.

I thought that was hilarious. Yeah. Maybe it's the garlic I thought that was hilarious. Yeah. Maybe it's the garlic. So that was that. You know, Douglas Lay had sent horribly inappropriate texts to one of his students, and the person who got punished for that was the child victim. Yay. Yeah.

But don't worry. Once Douglas received that notice of unprofessional conduct, he shaped right up. I don't think so. We all make mistakes. Brandy, Douglas was just a totally normal guy who'd sent nasty, sexually explicit texts to a child. And he was sorry. Okay. He'd gotten a notice of unprofessional conduct.

He'd learned his lesson. Yeah. notice of unprofessional conduct. He had learned his lesson. Yeah. But weirdly, Celeste wasn't nearly as confident in Douglas Lay as the school district was. So she decided, no, I'm putting a Google alert on his name. And the second anything pops up, I'm going to know about it because something will pop up. But nothing did. The following year, Douglas Lay continued to do his thing. He was the cool teacher. He'd come up behind his students and give them little back rubs. Oh, no. He'd joke with them about having sex with their moms. No. And oh, this is hilarious. One time a student was filming a video with him,

and he did that sex gesture where you stick one finger out and you make a cylinder with your hand and you, you know, commence the lovemaking. Commence the lovemaking? That's how I do it. Uh-huh. Douglas Lay also did, like, really cool aggressive stuff, like throw books and hit tables with a yardstick. You never knew what to expect from Douglas Lay.

Would he teach you? Would he harass you? Would he scare the shit out of you? Variety is the spice of life. Great. It is at this point that I would like to pause, as I often do, and tell you a totally unrelated story. Okay, great.

This is just a break from this story. I'm sick of this story. Let's talk about something else. Okay, great. Coincidentally also happening in the same town to a lot of the same people. Okay. Nothing to do with this story, though. Okay, great.

Who else was he abusing? Oh, wow. A little while later, in the fall of 2015, a Gilroy High School student named Logan received a friend request on Facebook. The request was from a woman named Rae Pelletier. And wow, Ray was hot. Hot! She was from Gilroy, and she had big pouty lips and soft bedroom eyes. And in her profile picture, she's leaning against a wall with one arm in like a reverse seven with the hand at the back of her head and the other hand kind of resting over her armpit. You turned on yet?

No. Brandy, look at me. Okay, wait, now I see it. I was going to say, your nips have been hard for minutes now. In the photo, she's wearing a black dress along with pearl earrings, a pearl bracelet, and a pearl necklace. with pearl earrings, a pearl bracelet, and a pearl necklace. So, yeah, even though Logan didn't know her, he accepted her friend request.

And it was his teacher catfishing him. No, it was Ray Pelletier. You know, he didn't know her, but she was super hot. I mean, they had some mutual friends in common. And right away, Ray began messaging Logan. The first few messages were innocuous. Hi. How are you?

What do you do? Which seems like a strange question to ask a high school student, but whatever. Yeah, what do you do? Yeah, he was like, I go to high school. I mean, yeah. From there, the messages got sexual. Do you work out? I want to see your body. Send me a picture of your chest.

Send me a picture of your dick. Logan said no, but Ray kept at him. She kept nagging him for pictures. She said, it's just for me. You're so hot. It would really turn me on. Come on, just send me a picture. Like five question marks, which... Makes you want to send a picture. No. Come on, just send me a picture isn't a question. So no question. In addition to being inappropriate, it's also stupid.

And Ray should know better because she has her master's from Brown and she went to UC Berkeley. So obviously Logan's parents didn't know what was really going on here. But they did notice a change in him. He'd always been a confident kid. He got in great grades. He was an excellent athlete. He was very into the track team. Oh, shit.

Mm-hmm. And all of a sudden, he's having— For anybody who doesn't remember, Mr. Lay is a track coach. Coincidence, I'm sure. He is. I don a track coach. Coincidence, I'm sure. He is. I don't think so. So he started to have these bursts of anger. And his dad, Arnold, said that they knew something was wrong, but they just couldn't put their finger on it.

That is so frustrating. Yeah. So Logan was dealing with this woman online, but also he was dealing with obnoxious behavior from his teacher, Douglas Lay. One time in class, Douglas Lay said, oh, we know why Logan pole vaults. It's because he has a small penis. What? I know, right? It doesn't even make sense.

No. No. I've been really racking my brain on that one. Maybe it's because we're not in the track and field world. Maybe that's like a common saying about pole vaulters. Long jumpers have huge dongs. Yeah, that's right. Long jumpers have huge dongs. Yeah, that's right. Long jumpers, big dongs, pole jumper, pole vaulters.

Pole vaulters. People are never going to believe we're not involved in track and field. Tiny dongs. Discus throwers. What do they got? A top hat on their boob. Hmm. What do they got?

A top hat on their boob. I would think that you'd want small boobs if you were a discus thrower. You wouldn't want them in the way. Yeah, it's probably true. That's something to think about. Yeah. So put that in your pipe and smoke it. Why don't you?

Anyway. put that in your pipe and smoke it why don't you anyway maybe the thing is that like pole vaulters they are they have tiny dicks which is why they want to hold that big pole you know what I was thinking I think you're wrong on this I think it's like if you've got a big dick then maybe as you're going

whoo up in the air you get caught on the thing. Well, yeah, you don't want your dong to hit the pole. They don't go pelvis down. What if you're doing it wrong? Well, you don't. You don't because you're not. What if your dong's

so big it flops over the side? I mean... This is probably a disgusting conversation to be having when we're talking about a high school. It is. In fact, there's no probably to it. It's OK. Sorry, everyone. Yeah.

These are all hypotheticals. Yes, obviously. Jesus. I'm going to have to cut this episode. On the way of, what's his fucking name? Douglas Lay. We are nothing like him. OK, great.

We didn't go to Ivy League schools. we're nothing like him okay great we didn't go to ivy league schools uh anyway um another time douglas was passing back papers and he ripped logan's up and said you're too good looking for an a that doesn't make any fucking sense either you're too good looking for an a good looking people are. Is that what he's saying? I don't know. Stupid. This guy's stupid. Yeah, honestly,

he reminds me a lot of our creepy teacher because it's like some of that just like edgy humor that it doesn't even have to make sense. It just has the shock value. That's exactly right. I don't know what has happened, but I cannot hear out of one of my ears currently. It's like it's like –

Why are you linking? Because I'm thinking like if I can like – When did this start? Just like all of a sudden. It sounds like I'm in like an echo chamber. Try pulling on it. Pulling on it? Yeah.

You think that's going to – around about noon when your appetite is poking at you, poking at you? What's that from? It's Paula Poundstone. Oh. Is your body just breaking down? I am. I'm shutting down. You know, I'm not trying to complain here.

But I worked ten and a half hours at the salon yesterday. Shut up. Did you really? I did. Why did you work so much? I was nearly dead. It's so busy right now. So I was like, I was nearly dead by the time I got home last night.

And then I stayed up too late on Monday night because KU won the national championship. They beat North Carolina. Don't rub it in. I don't know any North Carolina fans, do I? You watched it with a heartbroken young boy. I did. Poor Norman. I tell you what, watching a KU game with you,

that's like watching someone else go on a roller coaster. It was a lot of emotions. It was very intense. Coming at us fast. Anyway, I think I've just, I've over, my body is just shutting shutting it. Ooh, that. Did it do it? No. Hmm. Thought it did.

This is, we need to carry on. You can't work that many hours. It was too long. Yeah. Yeah. I literally got home and I sat down on the couch last night and then when I got up to go to bed, it was like my whole body had seized up. I'm sure. Because I'm guessing you

didn't eat. You know what? You sound like David. Am I right or am I right? You're right. You didn't eat. There's what? You sound like David. Am I right or am I right? You're right. Yeah, you didn't eat. There's no time. It's too busy. That's crazy.

You don't have to work that hard. No, but like there are people that needed to get in. Anyway, it's a whole – yeah. You're thinking you can shut me up? False. You cannot. Anyway, my body is revolting against me by making me not able to hear out of this one ear right now. Also, everyone, let it be known that I'm giving Brandy a look.

A stink eye, in fact. She's giving me the stink eye. It's the look that says you need boundaries. Yeah. That is true. You're absolutely right. I'm not good at the word no. Yeah.

I'm better at the, sure, let me just die slowly. Yeah, that's fine. Let me figure out how to squeeze that in right there. Yeah, no problem. Oh, this is a life or death cut in color. Okay, no problem. No problem. No, you, yeah.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. All right. So things were rough for Logan, and really things were rough for a lot of students at Gilroy High School. A lot of them were in a similar position to Logan. For example, a senior named Giovanni Jones, who is cute as a button and needs to go into modeling. I mean, my God. I don't think you're supposed to say that, Douglas Lay.

No, I'm not being creepy. I'm saying he's so cute. He should be a model. Okay, great. No, I don't mean that in a creepy way. Can I not say it without sounding creepy? I think you can say it.

All right. Yeah. All right. Yes. Yeah. Don't call me Douglas Way. Jeez. Jared Fogle.

I was just saying, you know, this creepy teacher got around and he's like, oh, have you ever thought about doing some modeling? Ew, no.

I'm an amateur photographer on the side. No, that is not what I'm saying. You don't want to come over? No, I think Giovanni should be like a real model. I'm not someone in a mall coming up to him.

I don't have like a weird Polaroid. I'm saying like, Giovanni, maybe you should move to New York. Find like a real town agency. Oh, okay. I'm starting to sound like a, like what I never wanted to become.

You can't say anything anymore. All I want to do is say that a 17-year-old boy is really good looking. And suddenly that's creepy of me to say. Anyway. Is this something that just happens once you reach a certain age? What do you mean? Like you become that person and you're like, whoa, can't say anything anymore.

Oh, my God. I hope not. Oh, Joe. No, because I genuinely don't want to be creepy at all. Of course. Of course. But also, I always want to be the type of person who can be like, excuse me, you're wonderful looking.

Yes, you're. Oh, God, that sounds creepy. You're an incredibly attractive 17-year-old. Oh, no, I would never. Oh, God. You should get into modeling. I'm going to lock myself up. I'm just going to go to the local prison. I thought a creepy thing.

I said it out loud. All I have to do is say, I'd be like, hi, I said a 17-year-old boy was very good looking and should be a model. And they'd be like, all right, say no more. Sell three, ma'am. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. So Giovanni, whose looks are not important, started receiving messages on Facebook from this woman named Barbie Thoreau. What is with the last names? Douglas Lay?

No, this is Barbie. Douglas. This is Barbie. Okay. And Barbie was very hot because her name ended with an I, and those are the rules. She didn't even have an E on there? No, it was just Barbie. Oh, okay.

Brandy. Curiously, she looked a hell of a lot like Ray. In fact, they both strongly resembled a porn star. But this wasn't a porn star. This was a local hottie. Local hottie. She goes to a different school. It's fine.

Is this a specific porn star? I mean I don't know the name of the porn star They didn't say But you know she was like a super hot porn star I think they all are I think it's a requirement of the position Typically Seems discriminatory

Have you ever noticed That all these porn stars are very good looking? My mom says I'm not hot enough to get into porn. Your mom is wrong, Brandy. In Barbie's profile pic, she's wearing a red bra and matching underwear. Is she supposed to be a high school student? No, she's a catfish. To get high school boys to be friends with her, Brandy. I don't know.

I mean, she probably, who knows what she said. Okay, great. Sorry. Also. So is he doing this because he wants pics of his students' dongs? Yeah. Yeah. He is catfishing his students

to collect child porn. Yeah. Great. Yeah. If only someone had known before this that he was a creep. And reported him to the school district before this. Wow. Great. Uh-huh. Anyway, you didn't even let me talk about how Barbie was posed in her picture.

Okay. All right. Go ahead. You're trying to imagine, right? I am. What's your guess? I don't know. Is she like laying?

What is this, the 1980s? No, they don't do that anymore. No more center folds. No, this one was hands behind the head. Oh. You know, just, oh, you just caught me like this. It's

the pose I'm always in when you come over to my house. Oh, hey. She pulled the same stuff that Ray pulled on Logan. I mean, it's all bullshit. And, of course, at school, oh, weird. Douglas Lay was being creepy weirdo. He loved making jokes about having sex with Giovanni's mom. Ha, ha, ha.

Great. Ha, ha, ha. Then one night in the spring of 2015, Giovanni was at his dad's house and he was on Grindr, which is not a sub shop. It's a gay male dating service. Yeah, I mean, everyone knows this. Everything always explains it, and I don't think it really needs to be explained. It's spelled with no E. That's right.

Just an R. Nobody has time for the E. Brandi, you seem embarrassed. No. I just don't know why is the E not there? To make it cool. That makes it cool? Yeah, to lose a letter unnecessarily. Just Grindr.

Like a sexy pirate. Grrr. Don't you know that like, you know, you change it. Alright, that's enough. Do I look too sexy? Yeah, you look too sexy. Which is weird because you didn't have both hands behind your head, which is the natural sexy version. But yeah, that's how you make it cool.

You lose a letter. You change out a C for a K. I don't know. You do all kinds of stuff. What letter should I drop from my name to become cool? Oh, you can't. Your name is already cool. Brandy with an I. That's it. Yeah, you can't. Your name is already cool. Brandy with an I.

That's it. Yeah, it's the sexy girl name. I'm sorry to tell you again. Brandy. Your name ends in an I. These are the rules. Okay. It's hot.

Okay. It's a hot girl name. What number? What letter do you drop from your name you become oh i can't what yeah you drop christy christy yeah yeah yeah christy's hot yeah yeah christy's hotter than kristin kristin brought potato salad to the gathering christy just showed up i love that

we went to the same place and Kristen is pissed because she worked so hard on that potato salad and no one's even paying attention to it and we're just

drooling over Christy God she went out and got dill from the garden. And for what? For nothing. For nothing. Anyway, so Douglas Lay found his student on Grindr.

No E. And started messaging him. As himself? Yeah, as himself this time. Yeah, Lord Almighty. So, you know, at first he's like, hey, how are you? To report a crime. Yeah, fuck.

He starts asking Giovanni what he likes to do in bed. You know, just like, fuck, gross, gross, gross. Okay, now. do in bed you know just like fuck gross gross gross um okay now here's i mean it's all sad but to me here's like the really sad part um giovanni didn't know what to do but he knew what not to do because everyone knew what had happened to zoe year earlier, and he didn't want to be ostracized, so he didn't tell anyone. And, of course, he became very depressed, and it just sounds awful. He didn't know that a lot of other students at Gilroy High School were going through exactly what he was going through. Oh, my gosh, this fucking predator.

Get him out of there. So finally, in April of 2016, Facebook reached out to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and they were like, hey, something sketchy

is going on with one of our accounts. This is like the first time I've ever heard positive news about something Facebook did. And it looks like someone is catfishing children and getting them to send them child porn. Oh, my gosh.

I know. So the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children sent the tip to Detective Nick Jourdainet. Hmm. He was a detective. What's with all the fucking French names? I don't know. All right. Hmm.

Garlic related maybe? I don't know. I don't know. All right. Hmm. Garlic related maybe? I don't know. I don't think so. A bunch of French garlic people came over, settled in Gilroy. Is this kind of a dumb theory? Should they abandon it? I don't think this theory is going anywhere. All right.

So he was a detective with the Internet Crimes Against Children Task Force at the San Jose Police Department. And he is a snappy dresser. What's he wear? Well, okay. So, first of all, he has blue eyes. He wore a navy suit. Navy tie. Just popping right and left.

I like when people dress up for their interviews on these shows. Unlike that fuckwad who showed up to court in a zip-up hoodie. It's a court of law! It is! What the fuck? You're going to be on TV. You're going to be in court. I told you I have a theory.

That man wore a button-up. He did the thing. He planned to wear his button-up on the stand. He went to the bathroom right before he was being called to testify and he noticed in that bathroom light, which was very similar to the courtroom light, that his nips just

shone right through that shirt. So he had no choice but to wear that zip-up hoodie. I don't know. Maybe you're right. But I don't like it. Okay. So Nick started looking into this and, of course, discovered that the person catfishing so many students at Gilroy High School was a Gilroy High School teacher named Douglas Lay. Hold for shock.

I'm not shocked. Gasp. No. Investigators did a search and they seized a bunch of Douglas' electronics. Sorry, I got—whoa, what is going on with you? Are you still trying to pop that ear? Yeah. I was hoping you wouldn't notice.

How would I not have noticed that? Everyone, she had her mouth open so big. Things are great. Yeah, they seem that way. The catfishing went from June of 2014 through January of 2016. This is gross. Detective Nick said that the investigation turned up over 9,500 pages of information, including chat logs, IP addresses, photos.

God, can you imagine having to pour through that? That's terrible. He identified nine victims, but it's believed that there were many more. I'm sure. The other thing is that like some of the people were former students of his. So we're talking about people who maybe it's – well, no, not maybe. It is legal for them to send these pictures, but that's disgusting. Still gross. Uh-huh.

Yeah. And wrong. Prosecutors later said that at least five of the nine identified victims were students from Douglas Lay's classes. Wow. Five of the nine identified victims were students from Douglas Lay's classes. Wow. So he was charged with 20 felonies and the school district placed him on administrative leave and he resigned three days later. And Zoe's mom got the Google alert and was like, I fucking told you.

And then what? Sued the school district. Very good, Brandi. We're not there quite yet, but yeah. So word spread very quickly. Zoe was actually at her senior prom when she found out that he'd been arrested. And the pictures of her from that night are incredible. She's standing so tall.

She's smiling so big, hand on her hip. She looks fabulous. She's got a floor-length gold sequin gown, red lipstick. I mean, she looks beautiful. She said, I could have bathed in that feeling all day, knowing that people believed me. Oh, I love how she put that. Yeah. Yeah.

It was official. She hadn't been lying. She hadn't been seeking attention. Douglas Lay was the bad guy. He'd been the bad guy all along. Yeah. So, okay, as you've already predicted, Celeste was like, okay, this is great, but it's a pretty bittersweet thing because I warned you guys like two years ago. Yeah. So she started telling people like yeah i told the school

district they knew and people were outraged so under some pressure the school district released the following statement are you ready oh i can't wait to hear what bullshit they say this is incredible sorry i just burped mr lay's catfishing did not happen at school. It happened in private homes on personal computers. In 2014, the district received a complaint that Mr. Lay exchanged tech which contained inappropriate language with students. It was unprofessional and unacceptable, but there was no criminal activity and it did not rise to the level required for dismissal. The district took immediate, strong disciplinary action. The district served him with a notice of unprofessional conduct. There was no indication that he was

catfishing, and we received no further complaints of any kind. Yeah, I bet you didn't when the girl who complained was ostracized. That is infuriating. So much is infuriating. So there was no criminal activity. Okay, it doesn't have to be criminal activity for you to be like, you know what? You don't need to be a teacher anymore. Texting a student, you know what? You don't need to be a teacher anymore. Texting a student you suck dick, you don't need to

rise to the level of dismissal. It absolutely did. Yes. 100% it did. What the fuck does it take to get dismissed at this school district? You suck dick and you have a whore mouth that fits apples in it?

Yeah. That rises to the level of dismissal. It is so beyond what a teacher should ever say to a student. Yeah. So Celeste looked herself in the mirror and she said, let's go to court. In May of 2016, Celeste Benn brought a civil suit against the Gilroy Unified School District. She says she figured that the only way to get the school district to change their policy was to hit them with a lawsuit. By the way, her lawyer was Gloria

Allred. Oh, oh my fancy. This lawsuit ended in a settlement. And I know. I don't even know how much it ended for. Fuck. Disappointing. It is disappointing. Also disappointing. Logan's dad, Arnold, said that a lot of the people in the community started talking shit about Celeste for bringing this lawsuit. They said she just wanted money.

No! That shit drives me crazy. When victims sue in civil court and people are like, they just want money. Well, how are you supposed to be made whole? Yeah. That's the way we right wrongs with money. Yeah.

And first of all, I don't think that she was motivated by money, but what if she was? Right. Honestly, who cares? Yeah. That's ridiculous.

We live in a capitalist society. I just don't understand when people make that argument. That's ridiculous. We live in a capitalist society. I just don't understand when people make that argument. That's ridiculous. Like, what would you prefer? Yeah. He has to make her a pot roast dinner every Sunday? I don't know. That's ridiculous.

Yes. All right. That was a weird example. You know, we saw where your heart was, Kristen. Don't you think that's so fucking stupid when people say that? Yes! Anyway. Two other families also sued the school district and Gloria Allred represented them too.

One suit specifically called out Douglas's habit of giving students a low grade so that they would come to him for after school tutoring. I wondered if that was exactly what happened. He cherry-picked who he would get in those after-school study sessions. Yep. Yeah. I couldn't find much more about these additional civil suits, so I kind of assume they ended in settlements maybe at the same time as Celeste's.

Probably. But back to the criminal case. Yes. Are you ready? All right. In March of 2017, Douglas Lay pled no contest to 19 felony charges. I always forget why people plead no contest,

but one of these articles jogged my memory. It plays out exactly the same as a guilty plea, but it's just, it can't be held against you in a future civil suit. I wonder why he was worried about that. I wonder why he would do that. Yeah.

So that's what Douglas did. He pled no contest to one count of possession of child porn, nine counts of sending harmful matter to a minor, and communicating with a minor with intent to commit a sex crime. He faced up to 11 years in prison. Deputy District Attorney Jaron Shipp called this a cutting-edge type of sex crime. Well, I hate that. That sounds terrible. I don't think it sounds terrible.

I just don't. It's not cutting-edge. I mean, it's catfishing and it's nasty. Yeah. Yeah, that's. I don't like that it's like new technology and sex crimes. I don't like that. Why don't you like that?

I don't know. Really? Yeah, it makes me uncomfortable. Well, I mean – Got the hottest stuff in Christ. That's not what he's saying. Well, I guess it does sound kind of like. Yeah. Yeah, because usually when you say cutting edge technology, it's like a good thing.

Yeah. State of the art sex crimes. Yeah, you're right. Okay. I totally. Yeah. I don't like it. Also, again, it's not cutting edge because he just like got on Facebook and apparently his account was linked to his –

Well, obviously because Facebook was able to connect the dots pretty quickly there. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, the prosecution – That doesn't seem like enough time to me. Eleven years, is it? Oh, get a load of this. Well, actually, no.

How much time do you think he should get? I don't know. I don't know. See, I think something has to be factored into the fact that he's just like, he's not just a man targeting children. He's an authority figure targeting his own

students. Mm-hmm. I mean, not that being a man targeting children isn't bad. Like, that's plenty bad, but this takes it to another step. He's put in a position of trust with these

victims. Yeah. I don't know. Forever. The prosecution recommended a sentence of three years in prison. Three years? Are you fucking kidding me? That's not enough. I agree.

I agree. A number of people read victim impact statements. Zoe asked Gloria Allred to read a victim impact statement that she'd written. But the judge didn't allow it because Zoe was not a victim of one of the specific crimes that Douglas Slay was pleading no contest to that day. I hate that. Because it's part of this pattern. Yeah, exactly. But fun fact, Brandi.

Judge Socrates Mnookian has no power over this podcast, so I will read Zoe's victim impact statement now. Yeah, F off, Socrates. Not a lot of people say that. No. She said, Not a lot of people say that. No. She said,

There is nothing anyone can do that could undo what has been done. There are many synonyms for the word disgusting, but none of these words are strong enough to express how I truly feel about Douglas Lay. The pain he has caused to myself and to so many innocent young people is insurmountable and can never be forgiven. There is a feeling that rests in my heart and grows every time I think of him, That's excellent. Yeah. The judge sentenced Douglas Lay to time served.

Fuck off! That's not enough! Mm-hmm. It's shocking. Yeah. It's shocking to me. He was put on parole and made to register as a sex offender. And the judge also ordered him to go to therapy and stay away from schools.

People were stunned. I mean, the victims were stunned. The parents were stunned. Celeste was left with that familiar feeling like, am I the only one who sees how dangerous this guy is? She said at the time of his sentencing that she knew he would do something else. Arnold, Logan's dad, felt the same way. So he began tracking Douglas Lay using Megan's Law, which is the federal law that makes sex offender info publicly available. Man, thanks to this case, I spent a lot of time on that registry.

I looked up all the creeps. Yeah. All around. Yeah. Near and far. Yeah. You want to hear something disturbing? Yes.

I put in my address and I was like, yeah, I want to see everyone in a three mile radius and nothing popped up. And I was like, huh. But then it was like, there are I want to see everyone in a three-mile radius. And nothing popped up. And I was like, huh. But then it was like there are too many to display. Is this disturbing? So I had to stick to one mile. Oh, no. Now I'm going to have to do this to mine.

Have you not done it yet? No. Oh, my God. We should do it right now. Well, we're recording a podcast right now. Yeah, it would be great. do it right now. Well, we're recording a podcast right now. Yeah, it'd be great. So by this point, Arnold had read up a lot on catfishing and pedophilia. And he was like,

yeah, this dude is not done. And sure enough, in October of 2018, in Campbell, California, an underage boy reported to police that an adult man had contacted him on Grindr and met up with him and sexually assaulted him. Yeah. Twice. Yeah. It was Douglas Lay. Of course. So he was arrested again and he was charged with two counts of sodomy, contacting a minor for sexual purposes, and arranging to meet a minor for sexual gratification. Once again, he pled no contest to engaging in sex acts with a minor,

and he was sentenced to how long? Two years. Four years in prison. Fuck off. But he got out early, and he was released from prison in 2020. What the fuck? I know. That's not enough time.

No. And that is a repeat offense. Yes. And he escalated. Yes. It's amazing to me that we've got people locked up forever on drugs. Drugs! On fucking marijuana! Yeah.

This guy has repeatedly been inappropriate with children. And oh, don't do that again. That is infuriating. Yeah. So I want to end with a quote from Arnold because there isn't a ton of court stuff in this story, but the court stuff that is here is just infuriating. This is something he said immediately after that first foray in court. foray in court. He said,

we're expecting the law to do the right thing and to see him walk free and to have the freedom to do whatever he wants to do. There aren't words to describe it. It's just devastating for us to know that the legal system failed us at every step of the way. Yep. And that's the story of a really cool teacher.

Fuck. Oh my gosh. That is infuriating. You know what's funny is like I was like, you know what? I just want a light case this week. I don't want anyone to die. And so I found this one. But it has been rough.

Yeah. Because there's no justice. There is no justice there. Yeah, this is just a horrifying case. I hate that. I know. I think the part where I would always get sidetracked is those – that series of text messages he sent. And I'm trying to imagine – first I imagine like what's it like to be Celeste?

You come home. Your child has received those from a teacher. And then you imagine, OK, what about as an administrator? You see those texts. I cannot understand. As an administrator, you see those texts and you're like, it's not that big of a deal. Yeah. What the fuck? That's the part that gets to me too.

How do you read those and think this is not that big of a deal? This does not rise to the point of dismissal. It 100% does. Mm-hmm. A teacher texting you suck dick to a 14-year-old student? Get the fuck out of here and you've lost your teaching license. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't think this is a hard one.

No. That's the thing. It's not difficult. No. Okay, so I've got a question for you. Okay. So at the end of this episode, Celeste shared her theory. Mm-hmm.

She feels like he targeted Zoe, a girl, first to see what he could get away with. And once he got away with it, he went after the boys. It's easier to get away with more with the boys. I don't think that's really what she was saying. It's funny because she said that and I kind of – I don't know. I don't think that that – what I thought when I first heard this story was he's using Manny's phone. He's sending this nasty stuff to a girl. I feel like he's as much trying to get Manny roped in as he is Zoe. Uh-huh.

So – and that could be very possible. My take was that he saw what happened when he did it with a girl and how quickly that was brought forward and everything. And so then he thought, what if I approach boys and do the catfish thing and then when the catfish thing was going kind of smoothly, then he was like, what if I target boys on Grindr who maybe are questioning their sexuality and are less likely to come forward? Maybe they're not out of the closet with their families so they're not going to – oh, God.

That is so dark. Yeah. That is so fucked up. I didn't even think about – yeah, you're targeting boys on Grindr who if they're going to tell their parents, first, they – maybe they've already had the conversation. But first, they have to say, I'm gay. Second, they have to say, I'm on an app, which maybe their parents wouldn't want them to be on an app.

Yeah. That's app. Yeah. That's disgusting. Yeah. I think each step is an escalation. He has – and it's a pattern. He's showing I'm going to do the same thing. Yeah. I'm going to take it further.

I'm going to push it. I'm going to learn. Yes. That's the thing. I'm going to do the same thing. Yeah. I'm going to take it further. I'm going to push it. I'm going to learn. Yes. That's the thing. I'm going to learn. Yes. Yes.

Okay. I can't maybe do this in the classroom. Yes. Yeah. That's the other thing that just like drove me nuts about the judge. Stay away from schools. Well, okay. But what he's specifically in trouble for in your courtroom today is catfishing on his own private computer. Yeah.

Like you can be a predator from anywhere, my dude. Yep. Hate it. Can we talk about some teenage love? Yes. Okay. You don't seem ready. It's good. I'm good. I mean, it's not good. You're not. It's not good.

I'm good. It's not good. Alright. How about that? How's that sound? How about that? Does that sound good? You seem like you've got a bit of an attitude, ma'am. A bit of an attitude about this case. Um, you know,

I'm conflicted. That know, I'm conflicted. That's all I'm going to say. Well, say more. You got to say more. Well, I mean, I'll do the case and then we'll talk about why I'm conflicted. All right. I got new earrings in. I was going to say, those are new.

I'm noticing them. Yeah, I got them at the Rack this weekend. Don't brag to me about going to the Rack. Do you know what I got at the Rack this weekend? What? Okay. Everybody, it's a Nordstrom at the rack this weekend? What? Okay. Everybody, it's a Nordstrom rack. Nordstrom rack.

Okay. It's my favorite store. I got $300 Prada sunglasses for like 90 bucks. Why didn't you wear them today? I mean, they're in my car. I wore them here. You should have. What do they look like?

They're like an aviator situation with like a mirrored finish on it. OK. So, you know, I have my mirrored Ray-Bans that I love. But they're like five years old and like – They're a little catty-wompers on your face. Yeah. I understand. It's time for new ones.

And so, yeah, went to the rack on Saturday, found these bad boys. Okay, get up to the register to purchase them, right? And, like, you know, they just have the sunglasses, like, on racks out there. But then they come with cases. And so the lady was like, oh, gosh, I can't find a Prada case. And so she's like, I'm having them check in the back. And so we're like, oh, that's fine. We'll get out of the way and wait.

And she comes over and she's like, I'm sorry. We're all out of Prada cases. Will this work? Then she handed me a Dior case. And I was like, I guess it'll do. Oh, God. I mean, I hate it. This Dior shit. Anyway, I also bought these earrings.

These earrings are like $12. So they're not fancy. They're cute, though. Thank you. I got little lightning bolts. And then are like $12, so they're not fancy. They're cute, though. Thank you. I got little lightning bolts. And then this one is just like a little like starburst. This is fascinating for the listeners. Okay, let's talk about – I'm sorry.

I'm stalling because – let's talk about this case. Ironically, I've been stalling going to Nordstrom Rack for a new bra. Why? Go. Go right now. I'll wait. Because I genuinely don't want to go. I have to go, though.

Okay, anyway. No more droopy tooties for you. You specifically said my tooties are looking real nice. Your tooties look wonderful today. Yeah, they're real perky. Yeah. Maybe a little too perky. Should we talk about what Norm said about you? What did he say?

So we were on Monday night when you guys were over for the game. I was talking about your droopy tooties and your brows that don't fit. And Norm was like, yeah, she's going to run down your guys' stairs and give herself a black eye. And Norm goes, yeah, or trip on them. It's like, wow. It's like, wow. It's like, wow, Norm. That's not what Brandy was saying. That's not what I said at all.

Hurtful. Very hurtful. Anyway, okay. For this case, I watched two shows. All right. A Forensics File. Forensic Files episode.

I put the S in the wrong spot. Forensic files episode entitled Disrobed. Oh. Okay. And an episode of 2020 that I don't know the name of because the only way I could find it was in like a YouTube form where someone just like recorded the episode and then put it on YouTube. Wow. Incredible. All right.

recorded the episode and then put it on YouTube. Wow, incredible. All right. It looked like it was from approximately 1997, which I know could not be the case because this crime takes place in 2003. All right, all right. Bellevue, Idaho is located just south of the resort towns of Sun Valley and Ketchum. And in 2003, it boasted a population of around 1,800.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Small town. Prior to 2003, its biggest claims to fame were a fire in 1905 that engulfed the town's entire business district. Oh. After the bartender at Seymour's Saloon lit a match to investigate a gas leak. Oh, my God. Okay. at Seymour's Saloon lit a match to investigate a gas leak. Oh, my God.

Okay. Not the brightest, but that's fine. And a music festival in 1971 that turned out to be a mini-fire fest. Oh. The Wood River Rock Festival was held in Slaughterhouse Gulch in September of 1971, but it was plagued with issues including, but not limited to, faulty sound equipment, cold weather, inadequate facilities, which I assume means there were no toilets. Uh-huh. Oh, God. People were just peeing in fields.

And an overabundance of grasshoppers. The festival was closed early, resulting in a loss to the organizers, and eight people were arrested for drug possession by undercover police officers. Oh, that all sucks. And another three were arrested for drunk driving, which I didn't think was invented until the 80s. I agree. Yeah.

You had to be really drunk to get arrested in the 70s. All right. Anyway, a knock on Kim Richards' door on the morning of September 2nd, 2003, would again launch the small Idaho town into the national media spotlight. It was early, like 6.30 a.m., and Kim Richards was enjoying her morning cup of coffee when there was a loud and furious knock at her door. when there was a loud and furious knock at her door. She was startled by the knock, but she knew that it was too early and too persistent for it to be anything less than an emergency. And so she answered the door to find her 16-year-old neighbor,

Sarah Johnson, standing on her doorstep. Sarah was hysterical. She screamed to Kim that somebody had shot her parents. Sarah's parents, Diane and Alan Johnson, were well-known members of the community, obviously, because it was a small town. I mean, yeah, how could you not be known? But they were also well-respected members of the community. Alan was an executive and co-owner at a big landscaping company in town. And Diane had worked at a medical clinic for years but had recently changed jobs and was working at a financial company in town as some kind of tax collector. They were a well-off

family. The couple had a great marriage. They had two beautiful children. Sarah was the youngest at 16. And she had an older brother, Matt, who was like five years older than her. He was attending college out of town but still in Idaho. I think maybe like in Boise. I read it in one article and did not write it down. Wow. So Kim gets this knock on the door and she finds her teenage neighbor standing there and she says, you know, my parents have been shot. So Sarah went on to say that she had been asleep in her bed when she heard a loud bang, presumably a gunshot.

Then she'd heard a second shot. She got out of bed, opened her parents' bedroom door, called out to them, and there was no answer. And so she ran to Kim's for help. So Kim let Sarah in, tried to calm her down a little bit, and then she walked next door to the Johnson's house. She opened the door slowly, unsure of what she would find. I think this is kind of a weird thing. I would have just called the police if it were me.

I wouldn't be – what if the shooter is still over there? Do you think maybe the daughter didn't – left some possibility that they were still alive and needed aid? I don't know. I don't know. So Kim goes to the house. She walks in. And as soon as she goes in, she's met with like the smell of like gunpowder and blood. And she walks like to the hallway that leads to the bedrooms. And there's debris everywhere. What kind of debris?

Biological debris. Oh. There were pieces of hair and skin and bone blown all about the hallway. So they were shot with like a shotgun? A shotgun. Okay. Yes. A shotgun.

A shotgun. Okay. Yes. This neighbor, Kim, said she'll never forget the feeling of like walking over that debris to get to the bedroom. Why would you keep walking? I would leave and call the police. But she went back to look into the bedroom and she saw that Diane was laying in the bed and Alan was on the floor next to her. And then she left the home and called the police. Oh, my gosh.

And reported a gruesome crime. This was something that just did not happen there. There had been a homicide in Bellevue in like over a decade. And that one I read a little bit about. A man had like shot two people kind of at random like in the street. And it was a huge. That's weird. Yeah, completely. Yeah, kind of out of nowhere crime.

But yeah, nothing had happened like this, like nothing to this caliber and like no, no murders at all. It happened in over 10 years. Well, yeah, I wouldn't think so for a population of less than 2,000. Yes, exactly. And certainly in this part of town, this was a very upscale neighborhood. This is like half a million dollar homes on this street. They were very beautiful. They were like kind of log cabin style homes.

Oh. Kind of tucked in. Oh, that's so cool. It was just an array of aspen trees all around them. Don't act like you care about the trees. You know aspens are my favorite tree. I only care because they're aspens. If they were any other fucking tree, I'd be like, I don't know.

There were trees around. But because they are aspens. I loved – I love a home that's tucked into the woods. Beautiful homes. Are you going to hit us with an address? No. Why not? Why not?

I did find an address, but there's not really – all right. Let me see if I can find it real quick. There's not really any good pictures. Okay. The address is – Okay. 1-1-9-3, Glen Aspen Drive, Bellevue, Idaho. Okay.

Ooh, okay. Yeah, there aren't great pictures. No. The Realtor.com one has like eight pictures, and I think this is actually – these pictures are from the time when the Johnson family lived at the house if you go to that one. Okay. Because that same furniture was in the footage on the TV show. Oh, wow.

So if you want to click on that, therealtor.com. I have. Okay. Yeah. You got stuff to say? Well, I mean, yeah, I don't like it. I know, right? I don't love the decor.

But also, I mean, it's very 90s. Yes. Yeah, I don't like it. I know, right? I don't love the decor. But also, I mean, it's very 90s. Yes. Yeah, it is. But focus on the outside of the house. The outside of the home, beautiful. Okay. Not my taste for the decor on the inside. I really don't like that media situation they have set up in the living room.

It's like a cascading bookshelf situation. Yeah, it's too damn much. Yes, exactly. And their TV is up way too high. Yeah. You know what? I think this is about anybody who mounts their TV over their fireplace though, Kristen. Well, those are fighting words.

You don't look at your TV like this. It's true. I do. And I'm happy to do it. Anyway, did you take note of the aspens outside of the house? I did. I mean, beautiful. But I appreciate hashtag all trees.

Right. So police respond to what is a report of a gruesome crime. And before you know it, like this whole beautiful upscale neighborhood is crawling with police. This whole beautiful upscale neighborhood is crawling with police. Officers recalled that this crime scene was the worst they had ever seen. There was blood everywhere. It was sprayed on the walls of the bedroom. Skull fragments were blown into the hallway. One article said that –

Dear God. One article said that – Dear God. One article said that – What? Diane's scalp was laying on the floor in the hallway. Oh my god. Outside her bedroom. Loaded from the force of the 264 caliber Winchester pump action rifle that was determined to be the murder weapon. Which I don't know anything about, but they showed the shell casing.

Yeah. It's a fucking huge bullet. Well, I guess that would make sense with this amount of debris and damage. Yeah. Investigators initially thought that they might have a murder-suicide on their hands because it's a husband and wife and the daughter was able to get out of the house and she hadn't seen anybody. But then they were like, wait, is Brandy telling this story? Because it has to be the daughter.

But then they found the murder weapon, that rifle, located across the room from the victims. It was like on the other side of their bedroom. And in kind of like a creepy little thing. Okay. It was laying on the floor, right? This family, very religious, lots of crosses everywhere. Yeah. of crosses everywhere.

A crucifix had been knocked off the wall and it broke as it fell and it landed directly on top of the murder weapon. Wow. Yeah. You know what? That's one of those things that it would seem like would happen in a made-for-TV movie. Yes. And you'd be like, oh, come on. All right.

There's like a close-up of the broken cross. Wow. Literally happened. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they were like, oh, okay, this is not a murder-suicide. This is a double homicide.

It appeared to them that Diane had been shot first when she was laying in bed sleeping in that he had likely heard the gunshot run out of the shower to check and see what was going on and had been shot as he exited the shower. The bullet had gone through his body and then lodged in the shower wall behind him. Wow. Mm-hmm. That's – So after he was shot, he had managed to crawl toward Diane before bleeding to death on their bedroom floor. Oh. There were bloody handprints on the bed next to Diane that led investigators to believe that in his final moments, he had reached out for his wife.

Oh, God. Yeah. Yeah. So the murder weapon, that rifle, belonged to Mel Spiegel. So Mel Spiegel was this close family friend. He was a tenant of the Johnsons. So the Johnsons had this beautiful home. And I don't know if you noticed in the pictures, but there's like a secondary, like a detached garage.

Okay. Which was actually a guest house. Okay. So it had like an apartment upstairs and then a garage down below. And Mel had rented that guest house from the Johnsons for years. He lived there. He was a close friend of theirs. But on this particular morning, he was nowhere to be found.

And his rifle was found at the scene. All right. So go find it. He became suspect number one. But investigators tracked him down like a couple of hours later. He was in Boise, Idaho with his family. He'd been there for a couple of days. They could account for his whereabouts the entire time. And so he was cleared as a suspect.

But he had a lot of information for detectives about some turmoil that had been going on in the Johnson house as of late. He told detectives that Alan and Diane had been battling with their 16-year-old Sarah over a boyfriend of whom they did not approve. So Sarah had been dating a 19-year-old high school dropout named Bruno Santos. And here I would insert a bunch of Encanto jokes, but you won't get them. So we're just going to move on. We don't talk about Bruno. That's exactly right, Kristen.

Thank you. You're welcome. And so investigators start looking into this Bruno Santos and they're like, it's probably our guy, right? So they learned that just a couple of days before Alan and Diane were murdered. Oh, my God. I got stuck. Before Alan and Diane were murdered, they learned that Sarah had told them she was spending the night at her friend's house, but she was actually spending the night at Bruno's apartment. Mm-hmm.

And so when they found out— What? Big trouble. Oh, fuck yeah. First of all, she's 16. He's 19. Yeah. No, this is terrible.

Yes. And so when they found out that she was actually over at Bruno's apartment, they, like, fucking the car, like I think like two o'clock in the morning and like went and like pounded on the door and were like, get the fuck out here. Yeah. And they told Bruno if they ever caught him with their daughter again, that they would call the police and they would press charges for statutory rape. And then Alan. Well, that doesn't drive them together more. And then Alan Well, that doesn't drive them together more. But what do you do?

Exactly. What do you do? Alan reportedly told Bruno that then he would have him deported because he was an undocumented immigrant. Okay. Well, that's shitty. Yes. It's not great. So they're like, okay, so we've got this 19-year-old.

He was like kind of a known drug dealer in town, like kind of small potato stuff. But just, you know, not the kind of guy you want your 16-year-old daughter dating. And so they're like, okay, great. This sounds good. Let's follow this. And they had turned up a fair amount of evidence at the crime scene. And so they're like, great. We've got a perfect suspect.

We've got evidence. OK. So among the evidence that they discovered, first of all, praise be to this quick-thinking detective who came to the scene and locked it down. He sealed the crime scene, which means he shut down the street that their house was on just before a garbage truck pulled up to collect their garbage. Like, the garbage truck was, like, according to these shows, shows, was like one house away when the detective was like, stop. Get the fuck out of here. In the garbage can waiting on the curb at the Johnson's house was a bathrobe, a pink fluffy bathrobe that had blood all over it, a blood stained latex glove. Some miscellaneous ammunition.

A leather glove. So there was like a leather glove, like a left handed leather glove and a right handed latex glove. And then their partners you know, the other latex glove, the other leather glove, were found inside the home in Sarah's bedroom.

Without blood on them? No, they ran blood on them too. Well, what? So they're like, they collect all this evidence and it's, they're like, great, we're going to test these things for DNA and it's going to have Bruno's DNA all over it. But no, because Bruno did not wear a bright pink fluffy robe to kill them. That's correct. It came back with no sign of Bruno's DNA on any of it. But positive for all kinds of Sarah's DNA.

But why did she throw away half the gloves? Yeah. I don't fucking know. And also, why not wait to tell the neighbor until after the garbage has been picked up? Yeah. Because she's 16. Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry.

I'm like, okay. Yeah. Yep. I'm just saying if I were going to kill my parents, I'd do a much better job. Look out, mom and dad. So they found Sarah's DNA inside of both gloves, the latex glove and the leather gloves. The leather gloves are identified as being Sarah's mom's gloves that she kept in her car. But yeah, it appears that they were used in the crime.

They also turned up a shower cap that had been flushed down the toilet. A plumber was able to retrieve it from the pipe. Why was it? What? Mm-hmm. Perhaps because someone was aware that this would be a very bloody crime because they were using a very high-powered rifle and that they didn't want to get blood in their hair, their blonde hair. Hmm. And that they didn't want to get blood in their hair, their blonde hair. See, it's funny because that's – I mean that's a pretty good level of forethought. Same with like, OK, I'm going to murder my mom and dad.

I'm going to wait until one of them is in the shower. I mean, that's I don't want to call it good planning, but you know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's fairly well thought out. And yeah, but to leave part of the gloves in the house. Yeah. To. Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, this is one of the things that I'm kind of torn on in this case a little bit. And we'll go into it a little bit more later. But yeah, there's a lot of stuff here that seems very well planned, very well thought out. Mm-hmm. And then some stuff that is like, how, why did you do that then? Yeah. Yeah. So at this point, they've, we're only a couple days in and they've ruled out Bruno.

Like his DNA is not on it. They actually deported Bruno like immediately. And then later when they have to go to trial,'re like oh shit we need that guy back and so they bring him back. But he doesn't get to stay I assume. He actually did get to stay. Oh wow. According to what I found he's actually still currently in the United States.

Okay. So yes. Yeah so they like deported him immediately and they're like actually we're really going to need your help so can you come on back. Anyway so they're like a couple days go by. And by this time, family members of Diane and Alan initially had been like, you know, really circling around Sarah. I mean, like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you had to go through this. And then like now they're starting to look at her behavior and they're like, OK, that seems super weird.

And they're like, OK, that seems super weird. Like the day that her parents were murdered when they were removing their bodies from the house, she sat on the fence outside the house and watched them take her parents' bodies away. Detectives thought this was super weird. Typically family members don't want to be present when a deceased member of their family is being loaded onto into the coroner's van. That's one of those things that to me can go either way. Exactly. I totally agree. And then she was really focused on getting her hair and nails done before the funeral, which again, she's a 16 year old girl. So but this really rubbed her aunt the wrong way. Thought this was a weird thing.

But this really rubbed her aunt the wrong way. Thought this was a weird thing. I hate it when people do this because like there's another way to look at that, which is I just lost my parents. Yeah. I want some semblance of control. Absolutely. I can control the way my hair looks. I can control the way my nails look.

Yeah. Or nails. Nails. You can put an R in there. That's when you put an R on your nails. Okay. Why would you do it? I don't know. Yeah.

So investigators a couple days after this like sit down and get an official statement from Sarah. And she tells them the same thing she told Kim, the neighbor. I was asleep in bed. I woke up when I heard a gunshot. I woke up when I heard a gunshot and then I got out of bed and was heading towards my parents bedroom when I heard a second gunshot I opened their door

called out to them they didn't answer and so I ran from the house and they asked her to tell the story again and this time she couldn't remember if she heard one shot or two shots she couldn't remember if she heard one shot or two shots. She couldn't remember if she got out of bed and then heard the second shot or if she didn't get out of bed until after she heard the second shot.

And then they asked her to tell the story again. This time she couldn't remember if her bedroom door was closed or if just her parents' bedroom door was closed. And so they didn't like that. They didn't like that she had inconsistencies with her story. But each time she told the story, her parents' bedroom door was closed. There was a major problem with that version of the story, though. Because her mother's blood and bone and tissue was found in the hallway and in her bedroom,

which means her parents' bedroom door had to be open when her mother was shot. Okay. So they go to work kind of trying to piece together how this could have been done, right? So they look at that pink robe that was found in the trash. There's surprisingly little blood on the front of it. OK. There's a whole lot of blood on the back of it. Did she wear it like a hospital gown?

Yep. Oh, my God. Yes. So that's what investigators theorize, that she had gotten up that morning. She'd put on her own pink fluffy robe backwards to protect her clothing from getting covered in blood. Wow. Had put on gloves, had put on a shower cap to cover her hair, had grabbed the gun that she had access to because she knew the tenant, knew the tenant kept the gun in his, in the guest house where he lived. She had a key to the guest house. She knew where he kept it.

house where he lived. She had a key to the guest house. She knew where he kept it, went and got that gun, brought it in, waited for her dad to get in the shower. While her dad was in the shower, she went in, shot her mother while she was sleeping. And then when her dad ran from the bedroom to see what was going on, she shot him before pulling off all of that stuff, flushing the shower cap down the toilet, dumping the gloves and the robe in the trash, knowing that the trash would get picked up that morning and then running next door to say my parents have been shot. have been shot. To investigators, this is the only version that made sense because in Sarah's different versions, in any of them, if somebody was – she would have – somebody would have been in the house actively shooting her parents when she went to the bedroom to check on them. And she didn't see anybody, never saw anybody leave the house. There was no evidence of – no sign of forced entry, no – nothing like that.

This was the only way that made sense. And so they had this forensic investigator try to place that bathrobe on Sarah that morning in reverse. They wanted to see if they could forensically prove it. And so the clothing that Sarah had on that day when the police were called, they had taken that as evidence. Right. Like that day, just, you know, it was kind of common procedure. And it hadn't been, hadn't had blood on it except for her socks. She'd had blood on her socks. Her mother's blood was on her socks.

But her mother's blood was everywhere. Okay. But her shirt had been like a shirt that she had used to paint with at some point. So it had all these little like paint speckles all over it. And they were able to pull particles from the inside of the back of that bathrobe and microscopically match them. The paint had transferred. The dry paint chips had transferred onto that bathrobe. Really?

Yes. And so they're like, that's it. That proves that she had. Okay, I will be completely honest with you. That sounds like junk fucking science to me. It does to me too. Yes. This is one of the things I'm conflicted about in this case.

Like that's the thing that they're like, that's it. We can prove it. She was wearing the robe that morning. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. I just like, I've never heard of anything like that being done before. Neither have I. I'm not a forensic scientist, but.

Well, no, but we've told a lot of these cases and that has never come up before and if i would feel like if it were that relatively easy yeah um that would be something that would come up in like all these cases yes mm-hmm sarah was arrested and charged with the murder of her parents she was held on $2 million bond. It would be like two years before her trial started in the spring of 2005. She was 18 by the time she went on trial. And the prosecution said

basically Sarah and only Sarah is responsible for the murder of her parents. They laid out for the jury how she had planned the whole thing out. She'd waited until their tenant was gone. She knew where he kept his gun. It was not locked up.

Her aunt testified at trial that like a few days before this happened, she'd asked her aunt for a key to some gun safe that the family had. Yeah. OK. Well, that – to me, that's really good. Yeah. And so, yeah, they said that she had been set off by the idea that her parents were going to keep her from who she believed was the love of her life, this first serious boyfriend that she had ever had and that she would do anything to be with him. There had to be more to it than that.

She would gain about $600,000 in life insurance and that she had made a comment to Bruno at some point that they could live off of that. They'd buy a nice house and live together off of her parents' insurance payout. Wow. They presented a bunch of DNA evidence that her DNA was all over that robe that they said was used in the crime. Her DNA was found inside those gloves that were used. That she was the only one in the house that day. There was no sign that anybody else had been there and that she had motive and opportunity.

The prosecution had a cellmate of Sarah's testify as a woman that she shared a cell with for a short time while she was in custody awaiting trial. And she said one day they were talking about, you know, how they – like their cases or whatever, you know, whatever. And Sarah had slipped up. And she said something to the effect of, when I killed my parents. And then she stopped herself and said, when my parents were shot. Hmm. Yeah.

Okay. Bruno testified, said that he was not involved in any way, but that Sarah had made mention before of what if we could get life insurance and live happily ever after. And some friends or family members testified that Sarah had interest in true crime. Well, lock her up. And so maybe she would have believed that she could pull off this crime and been smart enough to get away with it. The defense, though, had this strategy of no blood, no guilt.

That was their phrase that they repeated over and over throughout the trial. over and over throughout the trial. Sarah didn't have any blood on her when the police took her clothing that day, when they responded to the scene. Had she been the shooter, according to her defense attorney, she should have had blood all over her. But the prosecution's counter to this was that she wore the robe and she wore the shower cap and she wore the gloves. But her attorney said she should have had it in her eyelashes.

She should have had it in her earrings. She should have had it in places she couldn't have gotten it out of even if she had that robe on, even if she had that shower cap on. There would have been some blood on her. on. There would have been some blood on her. Okay, so that's an interesting point to me. Because the prosecution says this stuff about finding microscopic paint chips on the

underside of this robe, but you didn't find microscopic blood droplets on her face or in her hair? So the prosecution says the reason they didn't find that is because Diane's murder is the one that was responsible for all of the blood spray. But Diane was laying in bed under the covers and the prosecution claims that those covers would have kept the blood from spraying at the angle that would have required Sarah to get blood spray on her face.

That most of the blood went up onto the wall because she was covered by blankets. They did kind of a reenactment in court with this. They had a blood spatter expert come into court. Okay, they set up a bed with the Johnson's bloody sheets on it. Oh. They put a mannequin in the bed. They put the comforter over it. They had him put on the pink bathrobe backwards.

They had him pick up the Winchester rifle. Wow. Looked like fucking Elmer Fudd. Yeah. Yeah. And demonstrate how she would have had to have done it. and demonstrate how she would have had to have done it. In his expert opinion, it would have been possible for those blankets, those sheets, to mitigate some of the overspray onto the shooter if she was standing at the right angle.

This blood spatter expert, did he go to like one class? I don't know. I don't know. Because we've had cases before where they – I mean that – Is it a real forensic scientist or is this – yeah, a guy who went to a 40-hour class and like – yes, it's a good question. So to counter that, the defense wanted to play a reenactment in court. They filmed a reenactment of a mannequin laying in a bed with a coconut for a head, a coconut that was covered in fake blood.

And then they had a person about – I believe about Sarah's height and weight dressed in all white, and they shot that coconut from about the distance that they believed that Diane had been shot from. And they showed that the blood spray was enormous. It went everywhere. The shooter on the video was covered in overspray. The judge did not allow it in because he said it was not based in science in any way. And so the defense was not able to show that reenactment. But they stuck with the no blood, no guilt.

The defense also tried to attack the DNA evidence a little bit. They said, of course, of course Sarah's DNA is at the scene. She lives there. Right. Of course Sarah's DNA is at the scene. She lives there. A little weird that it's inside the gloves. It's not great.

But you know what? There's other DNA here too. There's other fingerprints here that's never been identified. There was a fingerprint that was found on the murder weapon that was not identified. Really? Yeah. Mel Spiegel's fingerprints were found on the murder weapon. It was his gun.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, makes sense. Sarah Johnson's fingerprints were not found on the murder weapon, which could be explained by the way she's wearing gloves. But somebody else's fingerprint

was found on the murder weapon. Wow. Mm-hmm. And Mel didn't have any idea who. Mel did have an idea of who it was. But it wasn't proven. Mel said. His friend helped him.

Move. To the guest house. And that he'd specifically carried that gun. He said he believed that if they tested it. That it would be his friend's. Fingerprint. That was found on the murder weapon. But it wasn't tested before trial.

It wasn't identified before trial. Wow. So there's this mystery fingerprint and there's some mystery DNA. And that's kind of the whole case summed up. The jury deliberated for 10 hours. And they found Sarah guilty. Yeah. Of murdering her parents. Her brother also testified at the trial.

And the defense tried to – he talked about his mother and his sister's relationship and how it was really bad, especially towards the end. They were fighting constantly. He wasn't living in the home, but he experienced it a lot. His mother talked to him about it a lot. And the defense tried to kind of be like, you would benefit a lot from your parents' death, wouldn't you? He pushed back. He was like, my parents were murdered. Yeah.

No amount of money, like, makes that better. No, I don't benefit enough. Like, no, that's not, I'm not going to let you do that. Yeah. Good for him. Yeah. During the sentencing phase, a lot of family members made statements, and Sarah was given an opportunity to speak.

Sarah's aunt said, I hope your father looking into your eyes when he was shot will be burned into your mind forever. Oof. Mm-hmm. Sarah's brother said, I think some honesty needs to come out of you, and you need to plead to the court for some forgiveness. to come out of you and you need to plead to the court for some forgiveness. He said, of all the things I miss about mom and dad, I miss their hugs. And I'll never get a hug from them again. And then he told the judge, I lost the two best friends I ever had.

Judge, I would like to see the maximum sentence because after tomorrow, I don't ever want to hear about her or this event again. I feel she has no remorse and I feel she would do it again, except this time she would do it better. When Sarah was given her opportunity to speak, the family was hoping that they would finally get some kind of statement from her, some kind of – Admission. Admission. Mm-hmm. And she said, I hope to prove that I can become a productive member of society. That's all she said. Oh, wow.

Mm-hmm. She said, I loved my parents. I miss my parents. Did she say I didn't do it? Nope. Wow. Mm-hmm. She was sentenced

to two consecutive life sentences without the possibility of parole. Plus 15 years for the firearm enhancement. So because she used a firearm, Idaho has a firearm enhancement. Oh, okay. Yeah.

If you use a firearm in a crime, you get an additional sentence for that. Boy. Yeah. Could we give some of her years to Douglas? No kidding. So she give some of her years to Douglas? No kidding. So she immediately appealed her sentence. Her defense attorney was a public defender, and he 100 percent believed she was not guilty. OK, Brandi, you always say that, but how do you know that?

He said it. Well, yeah, but they're always going to say it. They're never going to be like, maybe my client did this. Well, I don't know. OK, he said he was interviewed and he said, I don They're never going to be like, maybe my client did this. Well, I don't know. Okay, he was interviewed and he said, I don't believe she did this. I believe she is innocent. Well, yeah, that's a defense attorney doing his job. Okay, great.

Well, that's what he said. No, you're mad at me about it. I'm not mad at you about it, but it's that thing of like, I bet you think strippers like you. No, I'm just saying like he could just say I don't want to be interviewed after she's been convicted. Not continue to say I think she had nothing to do with this. I think this is an innocent person who's been convicted. You don't think that it would potentially be exciting for that defense attorney to be on TV, to be interviewed, to show here's how I did my job. Here's what I presented to the jury.

Yeah, I mean it could be. I just think that like – I don't know. If he thought there was a chance she did it, he probably wouldn't say that. I don't know. I imagine't know. I imagine. Well, yeah, there are definitely ways to walk around it a bit. But like a show is always going to use that soundbite of the defense attorney saying, no, absolutely not. My client didn't do this.

Yeah. So at some point in the interview, they're going to say that. Right. And it's going to get used. Yeah. Okay. Okay. All right.

All right. She appealed her conviction on multiple things. She appealed her conviction on multiple things. But the first one was ineffective counsel saying that her defense should have brought up that unidentified fingerprint more at trial and should have tried to date that fingerprint. How do you date it? I don't think you – I don't know. I don't know enough about fingerprint science. But she wanted them to present an expert who could say this is a fresh print or an old print and that wasn't done. I bet she did want that.

I'm sure she did, yes. That appeal was denied. Yeah. She then tried to appeal her sentence in 2012 after that Supreme Court ruling, say minors can't be automatically sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. Here's the problem with that. She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. But it was not a mandatory sentence. It was a sentence the judge imposed on

her. And the judge spoke for an hour at sentencing about how he did weigh her youth in factoring out his sentencing. And he still believed that she qualified for life in prison without parole. life in prison without parole. So she did not qualify for the post-conviction relief that that Supreme Court – I don't like it either. Yeah. I don't like it either. But that's what they went and looked at. They're like, OK, she was not automatically sentenced to life in prison without the possibility

of parole, which is what that Supreme Court ruling says cannot happen. OK. prison without the possibility of parole, which is what that Supreme Court ruling says cannot happen. Because the judge specifically wrote out and weighed her youth in his decision when sentencing, she did not qualify for resentencing. Yeah. I just don't think – I think that's too harsh for someone who's underage. Yeah, I agree. Here's – to me, what I think is very interesting about this case, the most interesting thing, the Idaho Innocence Project has taken up her case.

Really? Mm-hmm. They believe more DNA testing needs to be done and they worked to get that fingerprint identified. Uh-huh. And it was identified. Whose was it? It's Mel Spiegel's friend's fingerprint just like he said it would be. Oh. Yeah.

Well, so that doesn't really – No, it doesn't help her. It doesn't prove anything. OK. What else? What else? So now they've petitioned the Idaho Supreme Court to further test some DNA that was found on the murder weapon that has never been identified. They have denied that appeal saying it doesn't qualify for additional testing because the jury knew that there was unidentified DNA on the murder weapon at the time and it didn't affect their ability to convict her.

I hate that. So going back and identifying it now wouldn't have changed their minds. wouldn't have changed their minds this is this is the shit i hate because again we're just talking about like well that yeah that wouldn't have affected that trial but if we're going for justice yeah yeah yeah so then we have the technology to figure out. So it's so funny you say that. So that's one of the arguments is that you have to be able to say when you want further DNA testing done in appeal, you have to be able to say this technology was not available at the time of conviction. And it would have – Changed it. Yeah.

So the Idaho Supreme Court has ruled that neither of those things are true. The DNA testing was available at the time. Microscopic DNA testing was available at the time. It was done on some of the samples. It just wasn't done on all of them. So there's no advancements in technology. And then number two, would it change the jury's mind? And they say no, it wouldn't because the jury was aware there was unidentified DNA on the

murder weapon and they were able to convict her anyway. And so identifying that DNA wouldn't do anything to change, potentially wouldn't do anything to change a jury's mind in convicting her. a jury's mind in convicting her. Except for if they found out it was someone else, it probably would sway them. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

So the prosecution – I see how they arrived at that decision, but I don't like it. Absolutely. So do I. The prosecution would say that DNA got on that gun at any time. It's somebody else who – it's that friend of Mel Spiegel's, you know, the same person who left the fingerprint left touch DNA on there. But the defense would say it could be anybody's. We don't know because it's never been identified. They ran it through.

So that's the thing that the technology was there. They actually did test some sample of DNA from that gun that was not Sarah Johnson's, was not Mel Spiegel's, was not her parents, and ran it through CODIS, and it did not match anybody. And so Sarah's appeal wants them to run it through again now that 20 years have passed, 15 – almost 20 years. It happened in 2003. And see if it matches anybody now. But that's not an advancement in technology. And so the Idaho Supreme Court says no. I feel like you could kind of argue that it is. So they tried to. They tried to argue the definition of technology.

Yeah, yeah. So that's exactly what they tried to do. That's what the Idaho Innocence Project tried to do. Okay. Tried to argue the definition of technology. Would include an internet database, sure. Correct, correct. And the Idaho Supreme Court says, no, there's a specific ruling on the books that you have to go with the most known definition of technology.

Well, that's stupid, though, because technology changes all the time. But you can't change the definition of the word to try and make it fit your case. It's specifically what the ruling says. So you have to wait until the definition catches up to the reality and not just the definition, the most accepted definition. The most accepted, yes, definition. I think it's probable that Sarah killed her parents. Is there a theory on who might have done this? Is there like someone else who's –

No. No. There's nobody else who is a suspect who is – no. Okay. That I can find. I think it's really interesting that the Idaho Innocence Project is taking up this case. Because from – until I found that, I was like, she for sure did it. This girl for sure killed her parents.

Right. But the Innocence Project doesn't just take up cases. Take up cases. Exactly. It wasn't until I found that. Yeah, there has to be more here. On their website today. Yeah.

They haven't made any advancements in her case since like 2014. That was the last evidentiary hearing that she had. Yeah. But it is still active on their website. So that makes me think there must be something that we don't know that they see as potential proof that she didn't do this.

Yeah. Hmm. Gosh, I want to know more. The most logical answer is that Sarah killed her parents. Is that – I mean – and there's evidence backing that up. Sure. But yeah, if there's somebody else's DNA on that – on the murder weapon.

But again, it's like if they didn't really have any known enemies. No. And no one else really benefited from this. No. The only person who benefited – benefited? Benefited. Yeah, that's right. OK.

And the only other person who benefited from this was Matt, her brother. Right. Hmm. The only other person who benefited from this was Matt, her brother. Right. Hmm. I don't know. I'm so intrigued. I know. I'm really sketched out by some of that, you know, science, quotation marks.

I know. I think the paint stuff, that sounds like junk science to me. And, like, that's the thing that the prosecution says proves that she – like we know she wore that robe. It was her robe. There's no question about it being her robe. But that's the thing that the prosecution says this proves she wore that robe that morning and that she wore it backwards to protect herself from getting blood on her. Yeah. And it feels like junk science to me. Yeah.

Hmm. She remains imprisoned at the Pocatello Women's Correctional Center in Idaho to this day. Mm-hmm. And she maintains her innocence. God, I want to know more from her.

Mm-hmm. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. And that's the story of teenage love. What do you think? Is that enough of a motive? I mean, I feel like I don't know enough here to know.

I mean, and also, like, motive is a weird thing. Yeah. Because, you know, you tell a lot of these stories where somebody kills their whole family. I've never been like, well, I get it. They do get hit there. Yeah. Yeah, I get it. They do get it there. Yeah, I don't know. Here's what I think.

I think, like I said, I think it's probable that she killed her parents. I think it's very likely that she killed her parents. I think most likely she killed her parents. I don't think she should get life in prison without the possibility of parole. She was 16 when she did it. And I think that thing about the judge saying, I've weighed your youth. I've weighed in the, taken it into consideration. I think there are some things where like, okay, well then that just becomes a thing someone says is I have weighed the youth. Yeah. Just like, yeah, I believe my client is innocent. You know, it's like, it becomes kind

of meaningless. And so we just have to have these rules where – no. Someone underage commits a terrible crime. You can't just lock them away forever. Yeah. Most articles on this do not go into the Innocence Project stuff at all. Is that because they were written before the Innocence Project stuff at all. Is that because they were written before the Innocence Project stuff? No. No?

No. Some of them are, yes. Okay. Like the 2020 episode is from before that. Yeah. The Forensic Files episode is from before that. But a lot of these recap things that I came across, the Wikipedia page, like doesn't mention it. That's interesting.

I think it's important. Yeah. Because the Innocence Project does not just take on any case. Right. Right. Although I wonder were they more tempted to take on a case where an underage person had been locked up for life. Yeah. Potentially.

But even then I feel like they try to go for one's, well, I don't know. I just don't know. I know. So quit asking. Okay. Man, that was interesting. Yeah. I hated it.

I know. You know what we should do now? Take some questions from our Discord. Absolutely. How do they get in the Discord? All you have to do to get in the Discord is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That's all the levels, and it gets you right in there to chitty chat the day away with fellow listeners. And then on recording days days we put out a little

thing and ask for questions bob moss for life wants to know what's the worst kind of person you could sit next to on an airplane i know exactly i know exactly too what person who takes their shoes off that's exactly what i was gonna say you ever been in that situation yeah oh yeah me too yeah what the fuck are you doing exactly you been in that situation? Yeah. Oh yeah, me too. Yeah. What the fuck are you doing? Exactly. You're in a public place. I sent you a picture this week. Oh my god, you did? I did. I sent a picture to you and

Norm. So David and I on Saturday, no, on Sunday, we went out for boba and we walk in our favorite boba place and there's a woman sitting there drinking her boba and she has her fucking shoes off. And she not only had her shoes off, but she had her feet on the floor on either side of her shoes and was just rubbing them on the floor. Gross.

So I sent you a picture and I said I'd like to report a crime. That is disgusting. Yes. What's wrong with people? We're in a public place. What the fuck are you doing? Lord only knows. Well, I'm glad we have the exact same answer for that.

Oh, Lord. Comrade Kristen said, there's a dad from my kid's preschool pickup slash drop off that is sending me really inappropriate things and then being like, Whoops, didn't mean to. This includes a link to a website selling women's panties. Have you ever been put in a situation like this? I decided to tell him he's inappropriate and not to contact me again. Holy shit.

Gross. I think you handled that perfectly. I think that's exactly how you handle it. And, oh, that's terrible. I'm sorry you're going through that. Gross. I think you handled that perfectly. Yeah. I think that's exactly how you handle it. And, oh, that's terrible. I'm sorry you're going through that. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah.

So I've been in just kind of that, I mean, more generalized, that creepy thing where a guy's pushing the envelope with you. He knows what he's doing. And so you call him out on it and he does the, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, ugh, Gadriel wants to know, what's the most pointlessly stubborn you can remember being as a kid? I'll tell you how pointlessly stubborn I was. I wouldn't poop in public restrooms for years.

Did you demand to go home if you had to poop? I didn't. You know what? I was always very polite. I held it. I didn't make any demands, unlike my Taco Bell demands every Saturday morning. No, I didn't really start pooping in public restrooms until, like, I was an adult. Yeah, I mean, I feel like I probably did the same thing. Nobody chooses to poop in a public restroom.

Well, sure you do. You just let it fall out of your ass. Like, that's just. No, like, I would. I prefer to poop at home public restroom. Well, sure you do. You just let it fall out of your ass. Like that's just – No. Like I would – I prefer to poop at home. Right. But I'm saying I would like hold it to the point of pain. Like I would –

That's probably unnecessary. Do you want to hear more? No. What's the most stubborn thing you did? I don't know. Probably lots of stuff. I'm a little – I'm a bad little kid. No, you weren't.

When I was little, I had a terrible temper. I threw temper tantrums all the time. I would – would I probably – OK. This is what I would do. If I was mad – I was a little kid when this happened. Just so everybody knows. Like nine. No, probably younger than that.

I know. I'm not getting in the car. Oh, my God. Are you serious? Multiple times my mom had to like pretend she was going to leave me. I get in the car, start it, back out of the parking spot. Yeah. Oh, my God.

You little shit. Yes. That is hilarious. It's not. My poor mother. It is kind of funny. So I didn't have nearly your gumption. I feel like that's a youngest child thing to pull that stuff.

But I would, like, in a grocery store, if I saw something I wanted and my parents wouldn't get it for me, I would, you know, threaten them that I would leave forever. They never seemed worried. Never. Do you think London will have an attitude like that? I'm hoping not. She got an attitude when she couldn't come into the bathroom with me the other night. She did.

She did. I had to bring her out of there. I do exciting things in there. Yes. London just loves you and she wanted to be with you. I know. Yeah, she's displaying

bits of attitude like that. I'm hoping it's more controlled than mine was. I will say like, you know, my parents got divorced when I was a little kid. That was pretty tumultuous like time in my life. And I think that fed a lot of that. It definitely did. Yeah. And so my hope is that, you know, London has a very loving home and not that I didn't

have a loving home, but, you know, I had two homes and didn't really know how to adjust to that. I think it's 100 percent normal that you had some attitude and adjustment issues. Yeah. So my hope is that it's a little easier for London. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it won't be. Maybe next time she'll be like I'm not leaving this bathroom.

I'm not leaving this bathroom. You pull your pants down right now. Jenna T asks, Brandy, have you ever come across a case that's too gruesome for you? I was listening to a podcast about Albert Fish and had to turn it off because it was just too much. Yeah, that is a bad one. Yeah, I think a lot of times I'll start to research a case and be like, can't talk about that. Specifically, if little kids are involved, I have a really hard time. Oh, really? That's new.

No, it's not just. Okay. Specifically, I mean, I don't know why I'm giving like a clarifier here. Like, yeah, I can't handle cases specifically where kids are sexually abused. I can't. Yeah. I can't cover those cases. They get recommended quite a bit.

Yeah, I can't. Can't cover them. Yeah, and for me, it's I can't cover kids killing kids. Yeah. I've done a lot of that. I know. I know.

Well, and I did a sexual one today. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Everybody has their things. That's right. Okay. This is funny.

Witchy Bird asked, Brandy, will you let London jump in puddles on rainy days? I know you don't like a messy baby. Okay. It's so funny that you asked that. David and I were at the store the other day. And it had rained like the day before. And we were walking out to the car. And, like, London is now very independent. and she doesn't want to be carried places.

She wants to walk and like hold your hand in the parking lot and whatever. And so we're walking and like there was a puddle like right on the way to like her side of the car. Yeah. And she had on new white Adidas shoes. And so I walked her around the puddle and I was like, oh, no, no, that's yucky. And then I put her in her seat. And then I was like, later, I was like, I should let her jump in that puddle. Like, what's what's going to happen? She would have loved that. Well, but I mean, you'd want her to be in rain boots. Yes, I would. Yeah. So yeah, I don't think it's that bad. Okay,

great. You don't have to be the cool mom all the time. I mean. Also, I think she would have liked it in the moment and then she would have hated it if her feet were wet. Exactly. Because, like, even when she gets, like, her hands sticky, she hates it and immediately wants you to wipe her hands off. Honestly, there's nothing worse than cold, wet tennis shoes. Yeah. So, no, I don't think. Yeah.

Thank you. Well, for real. Well, it's just like, okay, in the moment, I would love to eat a whole cookie cake. Right. But then I'm going to feel like death in a minute. So, like, sometimes adults have to intervene. Msia93 says,

I feel like we know what everyone does for work except for David. What does David do for work or is it super top secret? Yes, it is top secret. He works for the NSA. No. That's right. He works for my dad. They're both gigolos.

No. He works for the family. It's a family gigolo business. Stop it. No. Okay. My dad owns a sign company and my grandpa owned it before my dad. It's been a family business since 1967.

My sister Casey is the office manager there, and David joined the company like a year ago. He does screen printing and all kinds of sign-making stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tim was looking for someone new and then he saw David and he was like, it's a sign. Jesus. That's exactly what happened. Oh, shit.

Says Kristen, can you tell us more about why you left law school I'm pre-law and scared oh my okay I don't think you need to be scared just because like I left law school because it really just it didn't feel right to me like and that wasn't an easy decision, but, you know, it's kind of like you're paddling against the current sometimes. You know, when you're doing the wrong thing, it's like you're in it and you're trying and trying and trying, but you've – I'm about to mix up my metaphors. But, yeah, it just – you know, it didn't sit right. We're about to mix up my metaphors. But yeah, it just – you know, it didn't sit right. And it's funny because like it – you know, for a while I was like, well, what was it exactly that wasn't working?

But like now we do this and the workload is pretty huge and there's a lot of different pressures around it. But it feels right. You know, it just doesn't feel – it's funny. Someone asked like how many hours we work. I started trying to think of it and it's like, gosh, it's a lot. It's a lot, yeah. But somehow it doesn't feel like that amount. Yeah.

And I think it's because it feels right. Yeah. We're not paddling against the current. So it's like you don't need to be afraid of law school. As long as you're going to law school, I think for the right reasons, which I don't think I was. Yeah. Tit with a top hat asks, we hear a lot if it's insert whatever here, we'll cut it. How many times do you think these things are actually cut and we don't hear them for whatever reason? We cut stuff a lot. Yeah, we do. I actually cut and we don't hear them for whatever reason? We cut stuff a lot.

Yeah, we do. I think people assume we don't cut anything. No, we cut stuff a lot. We cut stuff. Okay, I feel like, Brandi, this is going to be for you potentially. Okay. E. Bronco says, have you ever had to train someone you didn't like and how did you manage it? I'm training a new bus driver and have now spent roughly 10 hours stuck in a bus with

this guy. Oh, no. Who I can tolerate at best. He's not a bad driver. He just rubs me the wrong way. Oh, that's rough. That is rough. That is rough.

I have had to do that. I – when I was a district manager, I had a manager who just like – we did not vibe and like – it was not great. Like to the point that she would not look – she would not make eye contact with me. Oh, shit. And so I just kept – I just legitimately like when I had to, you know, do my store visits. Yeah. I had to do my store visits there when I had to do all this stuff. I just had my – I did a checklist and was like these are the things I have to do and just kept it all business. Why didn't she like you?

OK. There's just like a certain type of person that my personality rubs the wrong way and we just did not vibe. Describe this bitch. No, I just – No. I just think that there's a certain type of personality that my personality comes off to as fake.

And that's not who I am. This is very much who I am. This is legitimately my personality. But I think, yeah, she didn't think that. She thought I was like, you know, not just I don't know. she didn't think that – she thought I was like, you know, not just – I don't know. She didn't like me. Should have sung – should have sung I'm Real.

Yeah. That would have done it. Then she'd be like, wow. Oh, okay. Oh, I get it now. Yeah. Inauthentic is the word I was looking for. She's just Brandy from the block.

Yeah. Yeah. I think she thought I was inauthentic and – Yeah. That's fine. She can think that. Hot chick with bad allergies says, not a question, but I'm re-listening to an episode that mentions Quick Trip, and it's not just a Midwest thing.

They're all over Arizona, but in Arizona, we call it QT. We call it QT here, too. Yeah, so just calm down. Okay? We don't have time to say the whole thing either. We're also very busy here in the Midwest. Brandy tries her best to understand, asks, did you ever do anything scandalous during a sleepover as kids, like prank calling cute boys or getting sick on Zima?

No alcohol. No alcohol. But yeah, we did prank calls. We snuck out one time and went teepeeing. It was like literally a one-time thing. And Brandi peed her pants. I peed my pants. Because she was trying to hold in her laughter.

Yeah. It was either hold the pee or the laugh, and the laugh was too loud. That's right. So I had to hold the laugh, and the pee had to go. Tough choices. Those are tough choices. Also, one time, so you were always the first one to fall asleep at slumber parties. Yeah.

We tried to do the thing where you dip someone's hand in warm water hoping they pee themselves. Instead, you just had a wet hand and you were mad. So in other words, yes, we were badasses. Super badass.

Hoodies and Flippies wants to know, what is one thing you have in your house that you should really throw out? I will have you all know that as a result of this podcast, I decided I needed to go through my makeup and throw some things away. You would be appalled by some of the stuff I kept. But I did decide to part ways. Oh, it was painful. With three Urban Decay palettes. One I bought, I'm pretty sure, 10 years ago.

And the other, you know, like we're talking five years. And I decided maybe they'd pass their prime. Yeah, I think maybe. You know, I threw them away. And I was like, oh, gosh, but I wonder if someone would want these crusty old palettes. No. No, I know. I know I'm nuts. I know I'm nuts.

But, yeah, probably there's still makeup that could go, but I'm going to wait until I'm 55 to get rid of that. Okay, great. Hey, that was a big deal for me. That is a big deal for you. You're right. I'm not like you just purging stuff. I do. I am a purger. I just get rid of stuff. I would say the only thing that we have that we should probably like go through

because when we moved we got rid of so much shit. But the thing that we hold on to I think is like random cups like weird like tumblers and stuff like that you know the other day when i was over there i did have to ask what's what am i okay because you had quite an assortment and i didn't know if there were some sacred cups you know what's crazy is that we rarely use those, we drink out of our water bottles, like, all the time. So, but yeah, we got a lot of cups.

All right. I just, I like cups. No dusty, crusty makeup palettes that you want to hold on to for a decade? No, I don't have any of those. Me neither. Got rid of mine. Oh, Temple of Hyman. What the fuck? Favorite clothing brand slash place to shop.

And they put in all caps, not Costco. Wow. Oh, wow. Kristen, just like not your favorite store. I will have you know that I am partial to Nordstrom Rock. Same. It's my favorite store. My favorite store, for sure.

Favorite brand of jeans. I have a favorite brand of jeans. What is it? I recently got rid of, like, all my jeans and then bought new jeans because I found their boutique jeans. They're called, they're Judy Blues. That's the brand, Judy Blue. And they're the most amazing jeans. They're inclusive.

Are they the ones that I always compliment? Yeah. Okay, these are amazing jeans. I've got, like, the ones that I always compliment? Yeah. These are amazing. I've got like 10 pairs of them. Maybe not that many. Probably like six pairs. But they're inclusive sizing and they go from like a double zero to a 24

and they're super stretchy, very comfortable and they're fairly affordable. They're like 50 bucks for a pair of jeans. So yeah. What are they called again? Judy Blues. Judy Blues.

Do you buy them online? Online. Oh, boy. Okay. Here's the thing, though. If you find – okay. So lots of different online boutiques sell them. You have to buy them through a boutique.

You can't buy them directly from like a Judy Blue website as far as I know. But most boutiques will do like a very thorough explanation of like how to size yourself in them because they size differently. Like typically you need to size down because they have a massive amount of stretch to them but they don't look like stretchy like they don't look like stretch pants they're jeans I was going to say they look like real pants yes I have decided

recently I'm fucking done with like jeans you're just not going to wear jeans anymore I know I am but I need that weird girl from elementary school who would only wear stretch pants listen I work from home so I can do whatever I want. Everybody had that weird girl at elementary school that like wouldn't wear jeans like that's not weird. Jeans suck. Jeans absolutely suck. They're hard. They're uncomfortable. I hate them. Not my Judy blues. See, OK, but those sound like a loophole. They are. So I – My jeans loophole. I will do those.

Yeah. But you're trying to get me into uncomfortable pants and I won't have it, Brandy. Won't have it. You can't shame me. Pardon my tits and makeup. Ask Kristen. I'm having a nasty lame cyst removed, tubes removed due to endometriosis and an ablation tomorrow for my lady bits. Oh, gosh.

Any recovery tips? I remember you had to deal with something similar. Sure did. It was a glamorous time. Okay. The thing I remember about that time in my life was just like how I made an ass groove in the recliner. Yeah. That's what you in the recliner. Yeah. That's what you're supposed to do.

Yeah. So that – I guess that would be my only advice. I remember – you know, the sweet thing was I remember people from that time like reached out. They were listeners who had been through that experience. And I remember specifically kind of going back and forth with someone because I was like, OK, well, how long is this recovery really going to take? And, you know, the answer is just listen to your body and be easy with yourself, which is really harder than it sounds.

But, yeah. Gosh. Oh, God, it's taking me back. I'm getting flashbacks. Somebody responded and said you didn't ask me, but ask the nurses for compression garments or belts for recovery. That I think is probably a great suggestion. And that's something they said about C-sections too. A lot of people use belly binders as C-sections.

I didn't use one. But, yeah, that helps like a lot with – because you have that like bloaty feeling. You know, it's so funny how much you forget but yeah i do remember i was wrapped up pretty tight yeah um and i remember i had just like a pillow that i would just press yeah oh gosh good times Walking through the park and reminiscing. It was a blast, really. That fallopian tube was weighing me down. Do you run faster and jump higher now?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Nothing like major surgery to really put some pep in your step. No, good luck. I hope it goes well. Yes, I hope it goes well for you. And I hope your recovery goes smoothly. Ooh, Betwixt My Titties says, what's the most manic pixie dream girl thing you tried to make your personality when you were younger?

I made my favorite animal being fainting goats my whole personality for a while. My daughter started reading murder mysteries but said she can't say murder because it triggers her and she says Moida instead. Oh gosh. Oh gosh.

Manic Pixie Dream Girl stuff. Oh gosh. I'm sure I did a ton of stuff and it would just like It's so cringy. I know.

I know. I've blocked it all out. Hmm. You know, one cringy thing. It doesn't really fit Manic Pixie Dream Girl, but I feel like it's got the vibe. So as you know, growing up I was always very shy. And I'm still very shy with with people I don't know. But like I remember for the longest time I saw that as such a negative quality that I was shy.

It's not until recently that people are like, oh, introverts are cool. Back in my day, introverts were not cool. So anyway, one year I went to church camp. And we get put into small groups. And anytime I'd ever been in a small group, I was always just the girl who didn't talk. And I decided, you know what? That changes with this church camp. Every time there is an opportunity to talk, I am going to force myself to say something.

That's exactly what I did. It was terrible because do you know how stupid you sound when you talk every time there's an opportunity to talk and you don't have shit to say? God, it just kills. I can still. Oh, God. Oh, it just kills me. I hate it. Oh, oh. Okay. You need to talk now. I can still. Oh, God. Oh, it just kills me. I hate it. Oh.

Okay, you need to talk now. I don't have. It's all blacked out for me. I can't remember anything cringy I've ever done, but there's lots of it. I don't know. I'm sure there's something. But, like, really, honestly,, like I just wanted to fit in so bad. Well, yeah. I don't think I would have done anything that was like, look at me.

Look how different I am. Because I just wanted to be like just like everybody else. Just me, the basicest bitch that's ever been. That's right. Yeah, I definitely – I wanted to stand out, but in a cool way. And that's tough to achieve. Yeah. Don't think I accomplished either.

All right. Should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? Yeah, let's do some Supreme Court inductions. Once again, we are reading your names and your favorite cookies. And you get this lovely induction by signing up for our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. That is correct. Lexi DeWayne. Grocery store pink frosting sugar cookies.

Trisha Benish. Mastering Brandy's chocolate chip cookies. Fights in the faculty lounge regarding if the secret ingredient is actually a secret ingredient. I will die on this hill for you. Oh, it is controversial. It is. It is controversial. If you want to know the secret ingredient to Brandy's amazing chocolate chip cookies,

you got to sign up for the Patreon at the $7 level or higher. She does a video. That's right. And, you know, it is a controversial secret ingredient. It is. Kendra Moore. And, you know, it is a controversial secret ingredient. It is. Kendra Moore. Chocolate chip decorated with frosting.

Like a cookie cake? That's exactly what she's talking about. All right. All right. We can't keep talking about cookie cakes. I want a whole thing.

Brenda McNabb. Frosting-filled cookie cups from Mrs. Fields. What the fuck is that? What is that? What is that? I mean, is it just what it sounds like? I mean, it sounds delicious, but I only get one thing at Mrs. Fields. What the fuck is that? What is that? I mean, is it just what it sounds like?

I mean, it sounds delicious, but I only get one thing at Mrs. Fields. What's that? Peanut butter dream bar. Are you sure you get that? I'm positive it's not just a dream. God, that was stupid. Erica De La Rosa. Chunky chocolate chip cookie.

Judy Sasso. Chocolate chip from Grandma's Cookies in Old Town St. Charles, Missouri. Hmm. Kim Shildreth. Peanut butter chocolate chip oatmeal cookie. Erin C. Peanut butter blossoms with Reese's peanut butter cups instead of Hershey Kisses. Oh, my mom does that.

She makes hers in these little mini muffin tins. And then so you make. Oh, yeah. You just when it's hot, you just suck that thing right down in there. And it makes like a little mini muffin. It's a cookie with a Reese's inside of it. I don't understand. Thank you.

Did this help? She's making gestures, everyone. Allison C. Maraschino Cherry Chocolate Chip. Maddie Moreland. My stepsister's super soft sprinkle surprise cookies. The secret ingredient is an entire packet of dry pudding mix and a cup of sprinkles mixed directly into the dry ingredients. Oh, shit.

My goodness, don't tell Maddie your secrets. No kidding. It's good. I'm not saying anything. Olivia Brock. Sugar cookies. Donna McCloud. I don't really like biscuits, so I'll say my cat's favorite cheese-flavored Dreamies.

What? Okay, Donna. Donna! What? Okay, first of all, here's the things I've learned from this. Donna's British. Yes, for sure. Okay, great.

Great. Thank you. International fan. Love you. And your cat likes cheese flavored dreamies. Your cat likes cheese flavored dreamies. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh. Cat's name's Ash, by the way, for anybody wondering.

Megan Pleasant. White chocolate macadamia. Amanda Hicks. Snickerdoodles. Stephanie Rich. Italian egg biscuits. Anna Radinova. Malamar's cookies. Allison Cisneros. Che chewy oatmeal chocolate chip.

I feel like it goes without saying. No. All right. Everybody, she likes it warm. Welcome to the Supreme Court! I have to pee so bad. Oh, good. Okay, great.

Well, we have an outro to do still. So thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Reddit, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review.

And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Web of Lies titled The Enemy Within, as well as reporting from The Washington Post and The L.A. Times. I got my info from an episode of Forensic Files, an episode of 2020, Murderpedia, The Times News, The South Idaho Press, an article for Morbidology

by Emily Thompson, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.