Let's Go To Court! - 213: A Murder Mystery & the Central Park Karen

Episode Date: May 4, 2022

Brandi is back at it again with another Johnson County murder mystery. How does she keep finding these? Is it because she’s the one committing all these murders? Is that why she knows so many details?? (Don’t look at me! I’m just asking questions!) Barbara Haddock’s death was staged to look like an accident. Barbara lay dead in her garage, under a large amount of firewood. It looked as though she’d been crushed by the firewood. But a closer look revealed a different story. Barbara had been killed by several blows to the back of her head.  Then Kristin tells us about the Central Park Karen. On May 25, 2020, Christian Cooper was birdwatching in an area of Central Park known as the Ramble. The Ramble is home to wildlife and delicate plants, and several signs that state that dogs must be kept on a leash. Amy Cooper figured the rules didn’t apply to her. When Christian asked her to put her dog on a leash, she got offended. Then she decided to weaponize her white womanhood. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Rescue organization returns dog to Amy cooper, one week after “Central Park Karen” video went viral,” by Sophie Lewis for CBS News “Christian Cooper on being racially targeted while birdwatching in Central Park,” video on YouTube from CBS News “Amy Cooper faces charges after calling police on Black bird-watcher,” by Jan Ransom for the New York Times “Case against Amy Cooper lacks key element: Victim’s cooperation,” by Jan Ransom for the New York Times “Why I have chosen not to aid the investigation of Amy Cooper,” by Christian Cooper for The Washington Post “Amy Cooper, who falsely accused Black bird-watcher, has charged dismissed,” by Jonah E. Bromwich  “Amy Cooper was fired after calling 911 on a Black birdwatcher. Now she’s suing her ex-employer,” by Jaclyn Peiser “Amy Cooper sues ex-employer for racial discrimination after viral Central Park incident,” by Meredith Deliso for ABC News “Franklin moves to dismiss Amy Cooper’s wrongful termination suit,” by Nicole Piper for citywireusa.com “How two lives collided in Central Park, rattling the nation,” by Sarah Maslin Nir for the New York Times “Central Park birdwatching incident,” entry on wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “State v. Haddock” anylaw.com “Haddock v. Roberts” leagle.com “Olathe Man Charged in Wife’s Death” by Max Evans, Olathe Daily News “Insurance policies offered as possible murder motive” by Max Evans, Olathe Daily News “Haddock tries to build alibi defense in wife’s murder” by Andy Hoffman, Olathe Daily News “Shocking tape played at trial” by Tony Rizzo, The Kansas City Star “Police questioned suspect about cuts on his hand” by Tony Rizzo, The Kansas City Star “Haddock draws life sentence, continues to dispute verdict” by Andy Hoffman, Olathe Daily News “Man sentenced to life for killing wife is seeking appeal” by Andy Hoffman, Olathe Daily News “Fighting for their father” by Shaun Hittle, Lawrence Journal-World YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. Did you say let's? I'm so sorry. I said it so loud I couldn't hear you. Okay, let's start again. Well, this is a classic episode where we have to start again. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the Central Park Karen. And I'll be talking about another Johnson County murder mystery. You found another one? I sure did. Another one. That's right. I'm just like DJ Khaled. In every way. That's right. Is he a COVID denier?

Is he? I don't know. I don't know why that popped in my head. I have no idea. Anyway, I'm so excited. Oh my gosh, me too. We just had a lovely lunch in a construction zone. Oh, everyone. I cried the whole time.

I made the bold choice that we should sit outside on this lovely day. It is a lovely day out. I understand the motivation behind the choice. Uh-huh. But then it turned out there was, like, a jackhammer, all kinds of stuff happening, like, right outside the restaurant. Mm-hmm. And Brandy's allergies. My allergies.

Like literally by that time we were done eating, my eyes were like swollen shut. Anyway, we had a great time. It was. It was a great time. Yeah. I love it when I can barely see. That's right. Brandy, how are you today on this fine day?

I'm doing great. How are you doing? Yeah, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Pretty good. Hey, what's the story of this little Yoshi on the table? Is there a story behind that?

You know, I don't know. When you have the privilege of being married to the gaming historian. Yeah, and I don't mean to make you jealous. And I know it will make you jealous. Sometimes little Yoshi dolls just pop up. Just appear out of nowhere. That's a fun game. Yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, it looks like a dog got a hold of that one. Yes. Because it's missing a chunk of its ass. That is true. I remember when that thing arrived in the mail, Norm was like, you don't want to know how much it paid for this. And then Kit ate it. And now I really don't want to know how much I paid for this. And then Kit ate it. And now I really don't want to know how much you paid for that.

Poor Yoshi. You know, I was going to just jump right in, but you know what we should talk about first? Our Patreon. That's right. You know who's not? Okay, are you ready for the best advertisement ever? I am. Here we go.

Here we go. You know, Brandy, it's often said that anyone who isn't a member of our Patreon is a dumb bitch. Oh, I have heard that. I've heard that. I've heard a lot of really smart, influential people say that. So if you want to be universally admired, improve your life in every way. That's right. Don't be a dumb bitch.

Sign up for our Patreon today. You know, at the $5 level, you get bonus episodes. You get all the bonus episodes. Yeah. You get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away at the $7 level. That's the Bob. No, it's not. That's the Supreme Court. Boy, that's the Supreme Court.

Boy, who's the dumb bitch now? You get all that plus a monthly Zoom call. You get a sticker. You get our autographs. That's right. And you get inducted on this very podcast. Yeah. Into the Supreme Court.

And then what? What do we have next? And then at the $10 level, we have the Bob Moss level. At that level, you get all that stuff we've already mentioned. Plus, you get ad-free episodes and you get them... A day early. That's right. Plus...

10% off on merch. Woo! I always think that's weird how you say you get 10% off on merch. Do you really think that's weird how you say you get 10% off on merch. Do you really think that's weird? Do you? You can't just say you get 10% off merch. I mean, I can. You're not going to believe it.

I can say all kinds of things. I know. I've heard you do it. We've had to cut a lot of it. Especially when I get going on those Disney adults. Disney adults! Who I don't judge one bit. Okay.

Brandi, tell me about a Johnson County murder mystery. So I was just really, okay, so here's the real story. As opposed to the fake story you were planning to tell us. No. So Monday morning I had to go register my car and go through all this stuff. So then Monday afternoon I was like, okay, let me get down to work and get my case figured out. And I couldn't figure out what I wanted to talk about. And so I had to go back to my heart.

Listen to your heart. And so I Googled. When it's calling to you. Johnson County murder case. Johnson County murder. And the internet gave me the gift of this case, which I had never heard of before. I had to go like four pages into the Google

search result. Sure, sure. Yeah, I know there wasn't some big one that you hadn't heard of. Okay. So yeah, so this almost entirely comes from the court record. So no big shout outs here. There's lots of articles and stuff for the Kansas City Star and the Olathe something newspaper. Wow. Great job.

The Olathe Daily News. Wow. All right. Anyway, let's talk about a Johnson County murder mystery. There was nothing out of the ordinary about the afternoon of Friday, November 20th, 1992. Oh, this is an old one. Okay. For Jen Haddock.

She got home from school around 3.20 p.m., just like she always did. Was something fishy? Because Haddock. One person left. You're welcome anyway appreciator of comedy her mom's car was parked in the driveway just like usual so jen called out to her when she walked into the house but thought nothing of it when her mom barbara didn't respond jen found a fire going in the fireplace, the TV on in the living room, and a pot of chili cooking away on the stove. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

This was in November? Yeah. It's like a Friday afternoon in November. I know things are going to go horribly wrong, but I'm really relishing this point in time. A few minutes later, Jen's older sister, Jodi,odi got home and the sisters called out for their mom again. But again, they got no response. But again, neither of them really thought much of it. Maybe she'd walk to a neighbor's house for a few minutes.

Maybe she was upstairs using the bathroom. Right. But as it neared four o'clock, the sisters did begin to wonder where their mom was. As it neared four o'clock, the sisters did begin to wonder where their mom was. So they kind of wandered through the house looking for her. And eventually they made it out to the garage where they made a horrific discovery. Barbara Haddock was on the concrete garage floor laying in a pool of blood. And the two cords of firewood the Haddock family stored out there was toppled over on top of her.

I don't know how much wood that is, but it sounds like a lot. I guess I don't really know either. But can't you carry a cord of firewood? I don't think so. I think you carry like a bundle of firewood. I think a cord is like a whole shit ton. Oh, yes, it in fact is. Sorry.

Okay. I don't think she had like four logs on top of her. A cord is defined as 128 cubic feet of wood. That's a lot. That's a lot. Okay. Okay, great. So the two teenage girls rushed over to their mother.

They called out her name, but there was no response. They worked to free her from the woodpile, and then Jen called 911 while Jodi ran to a neighbor's house to get help. Jen relayed to the caller that it looked like her mom had, like the wood had fallen over on her mom and that she was unresponsive and that they needed help immediately. Right. The Haddix neighbors, the Hartleys, happened to both be registered nurses. Okay. Barbara was actually also a registered nurse. And so the neighbors rushed over and they checked Barb for signs of life,

but they found that she was neither breathing nor had a pulse. A few minutes later, at 4.08 p.m., police arrived at the Haddock home located at... Okay, hang on. All right. 1-1-3-2-1, South Renee Street, Olathe, Kansas. There's a Zillow listing with lots of pictures. Very typical Johnson County home. Just hang on a second

there alright for the listeners we've got a four bed three bath situation oh my god 2600 square feet yeah this is a very Johnson County house yeah it looks a lot like the house you grew up in every shade of beige imaginable that's right

oh did you see this fun decorative pillow in the living room Every shade of beige imaginable. That's right. Yeah. Oh, did you see this fun decorative pillow in the living room? No, what's it say? It says, I like big mutts and I cannot lie. I was looking at this little office space. They've got a little hutch, decorative hutch thing, and I have that in my house. I think you're better than me. That exact. Some might call it a curio cabinet for their, to display their curios.

I don't know why it's called that. Do you think it's short for curiosity cabinet? That used to be like a thing in like Victorian ages. That's exactly what I think. Wonderful. Am I right? Who knows? Who knows?

This is a nice house. It's a very nice house. Yeah. Oh, we've got a gamer in the basement here. We got the double monitor set up. Oh, shit. Oh, that's a nice backyard. Yeah.

Lots of nice. Very green. Yep. Very green. Some nice landscaping has gone on back there. Yeah. Has gone on. I can't.

What? You've got something nasty to say, don't you? Okay. It's a very nice walkout basement. It's unfinished, though. Well, these things happen. That's true. I mean, it's just a matter of finishing it.

Yeah, but that's the thing. It's already insulated and everything. It's already studded. It looks like it just needs some sheetrock it. Yeah, but that's the thing. It's already insulated and everything. It's already studded. It looks like it just needs some sheetrock to go up. But here's the thing. What if your family's not that big? What if you don't have that many people in the house? You don't need that extra space.

Somebody is gaming in that basement. You said it yourself. And that gamer, I bet you, is just fine. I also think this is a very nice deck on the back of the house. Yeah, agreed. I am worried about the location of the fire pit on the deck. Okay, you are shaking the table, ma'am. I'm very concerned.

Because of your concern. Okay, hang on. I've got to go back to the deck. Please hold. Yeah, I mean, you don't often see the fire pit on a deck. On a deck. You usually the fire pit on a deck. On a deck. You usually see it down on a patio. So that when things inevitably burst into flames, you don't catch your whole house on fire right away.

That's exactly what I was saying. Did I interpret that correctly? You sure did. Anyway, yes, your reaction to this house was very much like when I looked it up, I was like, that looks like the house Kristen grew up in. It looks exactly like it. I'm like, I could move right in. I know. Okay, this house just sold in 2020.

I was like, I would have bought that fucking house. That's a nice-ass house. Well, and especially if something horrible happened in it. I know. These people probably have no idea that something horrible happened in this house. You think? Well, if someone got murdered in there. Kansas doesn't require you to disclose it.

Oh, my. Yeah. I bet the people who bought this house in May of 2020 have no idea that something horrible happened in the garage. I'm going to tell you about it now. Hold on. How much did they get it for? What's the zestimate?

$339 is what it was? What's the Zestimate? $339 is what it was listed for. And the Zestimate is $450? Is up to $450 now. They knew. No. That's how much housing. I know they've jumped. They haven't jumped that much.

Yes, they have. They bought this in COVID times. And now, yeah. Agree to disagree. Agreed and disagreed. I disagree with your face. I don't know what that means exactly. How does it feel to be on the wrong side of beautiful? Anyway, so the police arrived at the Haddock home and they quickly determined that Barbara was dead and it seemed like it had been a terrible accident.

That woodpile had fallen on her, caused her to hit her head on the concrete floor and bleed to death. Ken Haddock, Barbara's husband, and Steve, the Haddock's oldest child, arrived home around the same time that afternoon. It was about 4.20. One of the girls had called Ken's office. He had a financial services company. He owned his own company. And she had called his office and left a message for him saying that there had been a terrible accident and that he needed to get home right away.

So Ken and Steve were met kind of in the driveway by a neighbor and a police officer. And the officer informed them that Barb had been found dead in the garage. They were then led through the front door of the house into the living room where Jen and Jodi were waiting. And the family embraced. Everybody was crying. They couldn't understand how this horrible thing, this horrible accident had happened to them.

Ken then tried to walk to the garage to I guess see his wife. I think that's kind of a natural thing. But he was quickly stopped and he was told he had to stay in the living room. The police then explained to him that because Barb's death had been unattended, it

was standard procedure that this would be handled like a homicide until they could rule out that it was a homicide. Right. And so they were only allowed to be in that room of the house until, you know, whatever. Well, how well can you investigate this situation when they pulled the logs off of her? Yeah. I mean, I think that definitely affects it to some degree.

OK. Yeah. The teenage daughters both had blood all over them because they tried to render their mom aid. They pulled the logs off. They moved her body to some degree. Sure. Yeah.

And then the neighbor had come over, the neighbor who was the nurse and had assessed her for pulse and breathing and all of that. And so, yeah, the scene had been disturbed to some degree. Absolutely. They had been disturbed to some degree, absolutely. But it wasn't long before detectives discovered that they could not, in fact, rule out homicide because they very quickly suspected foul play. Barbara's injuries were not consistent with her dying from the wood falling on her. Pretty immediately, they found that she had bruises and abrasions to her hands and arms that looked like defensive wounds.

And then she had several lacerations on her face, which could be from the wood pile. Then she had massive trauma to the back of her head. The medical examiner, Dr. Bonita Peterson, would later determine that Barbara had several skull fractures and had been hit in the head somewhere between 6 and 12 times with a blunt object. Wow. She had a softball-sized hole in the back somewhere between six and 12 times with a blunt object. Wow. She had a softball-sized hole in the back of her head. Oh.

Yeah. Other things at the scene also didn't kind of work out with the accident scenario. They found a separate pool of blood in the garage, a substantial difference from where Barbara's body had been found. And then there was some like spattering and some smears that suggested that Barbara's body had been dragged toward the wood pile and then the wood had been turned over on top of her. OK. There was also blood found on Barbara's car, which was parked in the driveway. Well, somebody did a really sloppy job with this. So a blood spatter expert looked at that and determined that what had likely happened is that the car had been in the garage at the time that Barbara had been killed and her blood had been spattered onto the car and then it had been backed out into the driveway from the garage right and her body had been dragged over so that the wood could be

pulled down on top of her nothing was missing from the home though there. There was no sign of forced entry, no sign of burglary, nothing like that. So as this is all kind of developing, that they're figuring out, like, okay, this is not an accident. This woman has been beaten to death. They've already taken the family, Ken and his three children, down to the Olathe Public Safety Center to get statements from each of them separately. Each member of the family was questioned about, you know, kind of their version of what happened that day.

And they were each checked over for scratches, cuts, bruises. Parts of their clothing were taken. So the girls had blood on their clothing. I think that clothing was taken. The girls had blood on their clothing. I think that clothing was taken. Ken's shoes were taken because it was discovered that he had some blood spatter on his shoes. Spatter?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kind of weird. Yeah. But he had gone into the house and he had embraced his daughters who had had blood on their clothing. Perhaps it had dripped onto his shoes during that exchange. The blood would have had to be just like soaking on them though. Would have. Yes, this is kind of the first sign to investigators that like, huh, seems that Ken has some blood

on him and he wasn't one of the ones that discovered the scene. So that doesn't seem to match up. Also, when they took his shoes from him, there were a couple of wood chips inside his shoes. Randy, you promised us a murder mystery. Sure did. This here is no mystery. This here is no mystery. So they sit down with Ken and they kind of ask him to tell him, you know, when he got the information, what he'd been up to that day.

And he kind of walked him through. He had worked in the morning. He'd had a couple of meetings and then he'd actually come home for lunch. He'd had lunch with Barbara at the house. He'd had lunch with Barbara at the house. And then he'd left around 2 p.m., gone to the library, gone to Wendy's to get himself. What? Tell me if anything sounds weird to you here. Okay.

This is the moment I thought Ken might be lying. Okay. What did he get at Wendy's? He said he went to Wendy's for a burger and a milkshake. No. Wendy's does not have milkshakes. They have Frosty's only. Mm-hmm.

Guilty. Did he say milkshake? He said a milkshake. In the official court record, it says he said milkshake. Mm-mm-mm. Mm-mm-mm. Do you think somebody transcribed that from Frosty,

turned it into milkshake? Or do you think he actually told the detective that he went to Wendy's that day for a burger and a milkshake? That boy ain't right. That's all I know. This is when my spidey senses started going off. It wasn't the blood spatter. No, it was not the blood spatter. It was the milkshake.

It was the milkshake. Legitimately, I read that. Like, I just came across that last night when I was reading through some court records. And I read it out loud to David. And he's like, Wendy's doesn't have milkshakes. And I was like, I fucking know. So we know for sure he has murdered someone. That's right.

Someone. That's right. So as this kind of interrogation is going on between this detective and Ken Haddock, the detective is being fed information from the scene. Like the fact that they have now discovered this is not an accident, that Barbara has been beaten to death. And so the questioning of Ken kind of gets a little more heated. And at some point, the detective points out that, hmm, Ken, it looks like you've got a couple scratches on your arms there. And the detective noted that, you know, the scratches looked pretty fresh. They weren't bloody, but they had like that rough, flappy skin on the sides. You know what I'm talking about.

No, I do. I do. Yeah. You painted a picture. I was there. All right. And Ken's response to that was, yeah, you know, you look like you got a scratch on your hand, too. I was not expecting that.

So in a way, you're just as guilty as I am. That's right. We've all got scratches here, buddy. I thought we were playing the observation game. Wow. At some point, as the interrogation got more heated, Ken decided he was done. At one point at the beginning, the detective had read him his Miranda rights and it said, you know, do you want to continue? And he'd said, yeah. And he was like, and the detective had said, do you want a lawyer?

And Ken said, do I need one? And the detective said, you know, you're not under arrest. You're free to go at any time. So, you know, that's kind of your call. And so Ken had decided that he was willing to. I love it when people ask that. Yeah. No, no police officer ever is going to be like, you know what? You know what? You absolutely need one right now. And then when you get the call.

Unless you're a police officer. Right. Exactly. So, yeah. So the detective had been like, you know what? You're not under arrest. You're free to leave at any time. That's your call.

And so Ken had gone along with the line of questioning and, you know, talked about his day, made that comment about going to Wendy's for the burger and the milkshake. Sus. And then, you know, at some point when the questioning got kind of intense and kind of it seemed like this detective was maybe. Was Ken from this area? Oh, you know, it's interesting that you ask that. He's actually had lived in western Kansas up until about, like, 1990. We'll get to that. That's not where I was going, but okay.

Okay, what were you going to say? I'm still stuck on calling. Calling a Frosty a milkshake? So I'm like, is this man from Kanata or something? I know. Are there people that call a Frosty a milkshake? It's not. It's not a milkshake.

I'm just thinking, like, you're not from around here. That's right. That's what I know. All right. All right. So a few hours into this interrogation, Ken says he's done. He's not answering any more questions. Or any more questions. Or any more questions.

And he gets up and he leaves. And he takes his kids and they go back to the house. Okay. I don't know that they were allowed to stay at the house that night. I'm assuming they had to find somewhere else to stay.

Or stay. I think I need to take a drink I think you do too yeah I mean yeah probably but um by this time investigators felt pretty confident that Ken was their number one

suspect I do too at the scene they had found. Okay. So picture this. I believe the layout of this house is like from the garage. This is, I don't know, very to me of the time architecture in Johnson County. From the house, you walked in like in from the garage and there was like a hallway there with a laundry room. Okay. Okay. And then you walked like to the kitchen, whatever, right? Outside that laundry room or just inside the laundry room in that hallway, there was a pair of pants and a shirt laying on the floor.

They were Ken's shirt and pants from who knows when. Were they covered in blood? Yeah, they had blood on them. Well, what the hell? They asked Ken during the questioning if he had ever changed his clothes that day. Uh-huh. And he said no. He hadn't.

Well, bing, bang, boom, mystery solved. Why are we here, Brandi? Did someone frame this man? Did someone put on his clothes and go? It's a mystery, Kristen. Are you lying to me? Am I? I've been lied to before. And so they start to build a case around Ken once they find the blood on his tennis shoes.

I don't know what kind of fucking shoes he has. I assume they were not tennis shoes. They had blood on his capizios. That's right. Blood on a pair of his pants and blood on a shirt of his that were laying outside the laundry room or just inside the laundry room.

What's his work situation? They giving him an alibi? What's the deal? Oh, wouldn't you like to know? I would. We'll get there. So when they start looking into Ken, turns out Ken's

in all kinds of fucking trouble. Oh boy. So as I mentioned, the Haddix had moved to Olathe from western Kansas in approximately 1990 after Ken was indicted on federal charges for fraud resulting to the mismanagement of funds at the bank he was the president of.

Turns out that Ken had been the president of a bank and then he had also like gotten a fight like a group of financiers together and they'd purchased that bank. And at some point he mismanaged a bunch of funds that resulted in a loss of like $1.5 million to the bank. He misrepresented some funds that were being allocated towards purchasing these loans from the FDIC. Okay. All kinds of bullshit. And he spent $250,000 of the bank's money to purchase his family a home. Oh, yeah. Whoops.

Yeah. So he was indicted on federal charges, federal fraud charges and embezzlement charges as a result of this in 1987. Uh-huh. In September of 1990, he'd been found guilty of all 10 of those charges and had been sentenced to 42 months in federal prison as a result. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

He had appealed that conviction and that sentence. And while those appeals were working, he was allowed out on bond because his sentence was so short and appeals take so long. Right, right. The potential would be that he could serve time that he hadn't been required to serve. Right. So during that time when he was out on bond, he moved his family to Olathe, opened up a financial services company. Man, that's ballsy. Uh-huh. And was fighting this appeal on his case.

On November 20th, the day that Barbara was found murdered in her garage, the appeals court had ruled. Ken was not present at that because this was being heard in appeals court in Denver because this all happened in western Kansas. So like that's the closest to federal appeals court apparently. And so he was not present for that. His lawyers were, but he had found out that they had actually upheld his appeal on a couple of the charges. They'd overturned a couple of his convictions and his sentence was going to be reduced to like 32 months or something like that. That ruling had come down that morning. And then Barbara was found dead in the garage that day.

Yeah. Why would. So in talking to Ken and Barbara's friends, people who were close to them, they learned that Barbara was really upset, obviously, about all of this. But specifically about how expensive the appeals process had been. They were about to have to pay $25,000 more in court fees for this appeals process. Right. And she, according to her best friend, was very upset about it. They were going to have to dip into their son's college fund. And she just wanted the whole thing to be done.

She would just rather. Just serve your time. Serve your time. Yeah. And stop spending this money fighting this. You did this. Just be done with it. I totally get that.

So they're like, OK, great. So that they had, according to Barbara's friend, she and her friend had breakfast that morning and Barbara was really upset that morning that this was still going on. They were probably going to spend another $25,000 minimum on this case. Where did they go to breakfast? I don't know. I wish I did. But they went really early, like 6.30 in the morning. Johnson County moms are like that.

Fuck, I'm not getting up for breakfast. I'm sorry, Kristen. I'm never going to breakfast with you at 6.30 in the morning. Well, good. I mean, you know I won't be there. In addition to uncovering all of this stuff about the federal case, they also uncovered that Ken had a $250,000 life insurance policy on Barbara. Well, okay. And he had two books in his possession about the cost of divorce.

That's why he went to the library? No, they weren't from the library. These are books he owned. One was hidden in his car and the other was hidden in his closet. And they were books specifically about the financial cost of divorce. Yeah. And so, I mean, none of that looks good for Ken. It all looks real, real bad for Ken. Yeah, it sure does.

And so about five days later, just hours after Barbara's funeral, Ken Haddock was arrested and charged with her murder. His trial began in October of 1993, which is when my parents got married. I just put that together. My dad and Lisa got married October 2nd, 1993. Everyone, if you don't have your 10 pounds fun fact journal, you better get that out. Maybe put that in your calendar. Yeah, absolutely. They would love that.

It wouldn't be weird at all. No. The state's theory was super straightforward. Ken and Barbara were experiencing great marital discord because of the federal bank fraud case. Sure. And on that day, it had led to a fight on that afternoon when Ken had come home and had lunch. They had gotten a big fight and Ken had snapped. He beat his wife to death in the garage and then he had been like, oh, well, shit.

I need to make this look like an accident. And so he had moved her car out of the garage into the driveway, dragged her body over to that woodpile and overturned it on her. And let their kids find her. That's right. When Ken had arrived at the house to find out what the horrible accident was, his response had been, that woodpile's fallen over before. That just happened last fall. I knew it was dangerous. Hmm.

him guilty of first-degree premeditated murder because they could infer that Ken had gone from acting on impulse when he was beating Barbara to death during a fight and continuing that beating into unnecessary overkill and then fabricating that scene when he realized that he had gone too far. They presented quite a bit of evidence that backed up their version of events. A neighbor testified that around 2 p.m. they heard a loud noise that was kind of muffled, but it sounded like something falling over, like a big woodpile inside a garage. And Ken placed himself at home at 2 p.m. Well, shit. Mm-hmm.

Okay. Mm-hmm. Again, waiting for the mystery. Just wait for it. Just wait for it. Just wait for it. The state was unable to give any, like, conclusive evidence about a murder weapon. They couldn't say exactly what Ken had used to beat Barbara with.

They did present as evidence a fireplace poker. So Ken had told – What's with the fireplace poker? I know, right? This is from the staircase too. I know. OK. So Ken had told in his initial interrogation, which fun fact, following that interrogation where Ken left, he invoked his Fifth Amendment rights and never spoke to the police again. OK.

And so in that initial statement, he said that he'd come home for lunch that day with Barbara and that he'd built her that fire in the fireplace. So he placed himself at the fireplace that day, perhaps using the fireplace tools to build Barbara a fire. fireplace poker and theorized that it had been wiped clean because it looked very different from the other tools in that fireplace set didn't have the same like charring and patina on it that the other tools and that you know those little sets i have one yeah i'm gonna use it to murder someone yeah and then wipe it clean and it it's going to look different. Except now, thanks to this, I'm going to wipe all of them clean. Mm-hmm. So they weren't ever – I'm going to throw out my capizios.

That's right. Just get rid of those capizios. They weren't able to prove that blood had ever been on it. But even the Haddock children on there, when they testified – they actually testified in their father's defense. Mm-hmm. But when they testified, they all said, yeah, it looks different than we ever remember it looking. It looks cleaner. It looks like something has been done to it.

They also presented DNA evidence. Remember, it's 1993. So DNA evidence, fairly new at this time, not nearly what we have now. But Barbara had been in Barbara's hand. They had found two hairs like clutched in her hand. And the prosecution said that this was the hair of the murderer. This had happened when she was defending herself, when she was fighting off her attacker. the murderer. This had happened when she was defending herself, when she was fighting off her attacker. And the DNA expert that they presented at trial said that they could exclude

93 percent of the population based on the DNA profile that they gathered from that piece of hair that are those two pieces of hair that have been found in her hand. So that only left 7% of the population that that hair could belong to, right? So the idea is it's the father or the son? So, no. I haven't got there yet, Kristen. You're jumping in there. I'm there. That hair can only belong to 7% of the population.

Okay. They can exclude 93% of the population. I understand. Of the 93% that they can exclude, they can't exclude Ken. He is in that 7%. Or his son. No. Not his son.

Oh, his son can be excluded. His son can be excluded. There goes my theory. His son can be excluded. You just stripped me of my detective badge. Yep. I hope you're happy. This is kind of what they used, according to what I have found,

as kind of like their smoking gun. She's got the murderer's hair in her hand. And we're... Yeah. We cannot exclude Ken from the... being the possible owner of that hair. Yeah, and it looks like it's him. Yeah. Everything else

points to him. Yes. I'm with you. Yeah. That sums up the prosecution's case. It's a good case. And now it was the defense's time. All right. And they put up a defense based purely on alibi. Okay. Ken could not have murdered Barbara because he wasn't there when she was killed.

The defense said that Barbara had to have died at 3.16 p.m. They had it that pinpointed? Yes. Because Barbara was wearing a watch. Oh. And the watch had broken and was stopped at 3.16 p.m. Presumably when she was hit against the floor of that garage. Wow.

During the attack. I mean, you don't know for sure. I mean, you do know kind. Ken couldn't have been there at 3.16 p.m. Because his Wendy's receipt was time stamped for 3.18 p.m. And it's 10 minutes from their house. Huh. They had a watchmaker testify that that particular watch, yes, it could have broken on impact,

and it would have stopped at the time that it was broken. Hmm. And we know for sure that she had her watch on the right time? How could you know that? Yeah, I... That's what they want you...

That's what the... But it probably was on the right time. I mean, that'd be weird if it wasn't. Ken testified in his own defense. Okay.

He said that he had been at the house that day, but he'd left about 2 p.m. He'd gone to the library. He'd spent some time there pulling some, looking at some, I don't know, reference manuals to help with his fucking federal court case that was going on. And then he'd gone to Wendy's, got himself a burger and a milkshake. And then, oh, what's this? Oh, he suddenly remembered that when he'd been home that day, he'd brought down some clothes

that he needed Barbara to fix for him. A shirt and a pair of pants. The shirt was missing a button. She'd offered to sew it back on. A pair of pants he needed the waist taken out on. She was gonna do it. She was a great seamstress. So he just tossed those

on the floor outside the laundry room. But they had blood on them. Yeah, obviously from when the girls were running in and out of the house trying to call the police.

This wasn't a carry situation. They weren't just dripping in it. They dragged the blood and been thrown onto, yeah, it was just cast off blood from when the girls

were running in and out of the house. No. Yeah. No, there's too much on it. No, no. That's the explanation. Fun fact, Ken had never mentioned this version of events before trial.

And the prosecution pressed him on it they're like in your interrogation you never mentioned that you had changed your clothes that day specifically you said you had not and he was like oh yeah i just i forgot yeah i forgot that i'd thrown those clothes there that i had i changed my clothes because you know the but barbara had actually noticed the button was missing on my shirt. And she told me to change it. And she'd fix the button for me. And then my pants were kind of a little tight because I've been having a lot of milkshakes from Wendy's.

They were like, listen, you psycho. Everyone knows they're Frosties. Okay. So that's the defense. He couldn't have done it because he wasn't there. She died at 3.16 p.m. and he was 10 minutes away at Wendy's at 3.18 p.m. No, I don't buy it. The kids testified in his defense that their parents had a loving marriage.

They'd never seen him argue. Yeah, the whole federal court case was stressful for everybody in the family, but they were working together through it. The parents talked to them in detail about the case. They were a united front. Everything was great in the Haddock family. Their dad couldn't have done it. Sure seems like he did, though.

On their rebuttal phase, the prosecution called two clerks from the Olathe Public Library who both said that they never saw Ken at the library. Oh. Well, but I mean. Are you going to remember like some guy? Exactly. Yeah. Only this is not a tiny town. Like it's in Johnson County.

People come from all over to go to the public library. Right. Yeah. I don't think that's that great evidence. They also called their own watchmaker to the stand who said – What? That Ken probably tampered with the watch and set the watch to that time. Yeah.

Murdered her at 2 p.m. when the neighbor heard that big noise. Yeah. Changed the time on the watch to give himself time to have an alibi. Yeah. Yeah, that's what I think happened. The jury deliberated for like three hours. Yeah. And they found Ken guilty of first degree murder.

A couple of jurors spoke afterwards and they said the DNA evidence was really damning to them. The fact that you could eliminate 93 percent of the population from those hairs belonging to them, but you couldn't eliminate Ken, her husband. The whole story. Yeah. Really adds up. Yeah, it up. Yeah. It does. He was convicted and he was sentenced to life in prison with the possibility of parole.

OK. So he would have to serve and the judge determined that that sentence would be served after his federal charges. So he's going to get to like hang out for a bit? No, no, no. He has to go to federal prison, serve that time and then he'll get transferred to state prison and start serving. He can't run them consecutively. He can't count his federal time towards his state charges. Ken's children, though, believed he was innocent and wrongfully convicted of their mother's death.

Of their mother's murder. Of their mother's murder. Of their mother's murder. They should have had someone other than Elmer Fudd be their spokesperson. They should have. You're right. And they have worked for years to get his conviction overturned. Wow. In the mid – go ahead.

Do they have any theories on other suspects? So I read one article that says the children have an idea of who they think would be a suspect. But it didn't name anybody. OK. So they've worked for years to work on appeals. They've stayed very close to their father, always visiting him in prison. And in, I don't know, sometime in the 2000s, they got matched up with the University of Kansas Law School's Project for Innocence. And they helped them work on their father's case.

And somewhere around 2010, they secured additional DNA testing. Wow. So DNA testing has – the technology has advanced so much from 1993 to 2010. And so they got it ordered to test those – further test the hairs that were found in Barbara's hand. They also got it ordered to test the scrapings that were taken from under her fingernails, which was never done. OK. Because that wasn't technology that was available at that time. And they also tested that blood that was found on Ken's shoes and pants. Mm-hmm.

So when those results came back, the fingernail scrapings showed the presence of no DNA other than Barb's. Only her own DNA was found under her fingernails. OK. The blood on Ken's pants and shoes was determined to be Barb's, which isn't like a surprise to me. Right. Who else's blood would it be? Kind of surprised they even – Tested that?

I agree. I'm kind of surprised they even tested that. I agree. But the hairs that were clutched in Barb's hand, the hairs that they used as the smoking gun at the trial, they weren't Ken's. It was determined that they belonged to an unidentified female. What? Not Barb and not either of her daughters. Shut up. Mm-hmm.

No. Yep. Oh, Brandy. Oh, you're going to kill me. Okay. You're killing me. So, OK, so with this new DNA evidence, Ken appealed to the Kansas Supreme Court asking for his conviction to be overturned and get a new trial. And they looked at it, but they remanded the case back to the district court for them to decide if he should get his conviction overturned and he should get a new trial. And the district court said. What?

Basically, these penalties offset. So that's a sports reference. Oh, OK. I know. I know. You saw the blank. So the blood being confirmed that it's Barbara's on Ken's shoes and pants. That's a plus. That's in the prosecution's column.

Well, but is it really? Because the defense never tried to argue that it wasn't. Exactly. The hair's not being Ken's. That's a plus in the defense's column. Those offset no new trial. Oh, I don't. What?

No, I don't agree at all. I don't agree either. No. You told the jury that those were as good as Ken's hair. You could you could remove 93 percent of the population and then they're not. That is huge. Yeah. If the jury had that evidence, they probably wouldn't have come to the same conclusion. He should get a new fucking trial. Yeah, I totally agree. That's huge.

That is huge. It's huge. The prosecution says, no, no, no, no. Who knows? Those hairs might not even belong to the killer now. Now they're saying that. They could have just been like loose hairs that were on the floor of the garage that just like got stuck to her in the course of the attack. I don't know.

I don't either. They were in her hand. In her hand. Clutched in her hand. You had a whole story about how those were the hairs of the killer. And now they're just like, oh, those were just like willy nilly hairs that could have been anywhere. I don't know what willy-nilly hairs are.

Don't say willy hairs. Yeah, he needs a new trial. So far, Ken's appeals have been unsuccessful and he remains in prison in Lansing. Oh.

Did they test those hairs against the neighbors? I don't believe so. Okay. As far as I know, they ran them through, like, the database, and they didn't come back with a match, and so they're just an unidentified female at this point. Because that's the only other thing to me is, like, well, if it was one of the neighbors. Yeah, because they had been the neighbor who came, and yeah. Yeah.

I hate that logic. That logic is so stupid. I think it's terrible. It's terrible. Oh, so yeah, because the DNA confirmed one of the prosecution's takes, but then didn't the hair evidence is too big. You have to weight it heavier than that. I agree. I totally agree.

Everyone knew whose blood that was. Yes! There was no question about whose blood it was. Hate it. This really is a Johnson County murder mystery. It is a Johnson County murder mystery! I thought you were a liar. I'm not a liar. No. It is a Johnson County murder mystery. It is a Johnson County murder mystery. I thought you were a liar. I'm not a liar. No.

It is a Johnson County murder mystery. Just a hottie with allergies. That's right. So the three children are obviously well into their adulthood now. They all have kids of their own. They all live in Colorado. They visit their dad regularly in prison. They take all of their children to see him, and they continue to fight to get him exonerated.

God. Oh, I want to know more. I know. I hate mysteries. I love them. I know. I know you do. But now I want to ask all these questions that you can't answer.

I can't answer them. Like, for example, who's the real killer? I don't know the answer to that. I mean the family has some some theory of who it could be family reach out i know i know i just talked mad shit about your dad for an hour but so i found this article in the lawrence journal world that's like an interview kind of with steve their son and he's standing like at his mother's grave. And it's like they've got a big family headstone and like they've got a spot for Ken next to their mom. And it says Ken and Barbie forever.

So her name was Barbara and his name was Ken. Yeah, I understand. Do you get it? I do get that. Are you sure? I am sure. And that's the story of a johnson county murder mystery wow the appeals process always pisses me off it never fails pisses me off every time that is enough

that should jesus that should be enough to explain i you need to explain what just happened. I'm sorry. My watch just went off. Sorry. My watch wanted to interject. That should be enough. Yes. You presented this DNA evidence as one thing at trial. It weighed heavily into the jury's decision. It comes out that that is not true. Yeah. In fact, it is the opposite.

It is not hair. He has been excluded from providing that hair. That should be enough to at least get a new trial. I feel like we're seeing this a lot with appeals right now of people trying to be like, well, DNA isn't everything. Yeah.

I'm sorry. Things have advanced a lot. Absolutely. And that may make you uncomfortable to know that perhaps you've put away a lot of the wrong people. But, like, we can't just keep people locked up. Huh. Huh. Huh.

Yes, that's exactly how I feel about this case. Fuck, I hated it. I know. Very well told. But I'm mad. Thank you. I know. I am mad.

I get it. Whoo, you ready for this? Yeah. What do you got for us? I'm mad. I know. I am mad. I get it. You ready for this? Yeah. What do you got for us? Oh, just Central Park Karen. So a little story about this week. So we had my grandma's funeral this weekend.

So it was kind of a heavy week. And I decided, you know, this week I think I just want to cover something kind of light. Yeah. I even thought this story might be kind of funny. I don't know. Is it not? It's really not. Like I don't know. I think maybe just in the past couple of years it's been like a thing Karen videos.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, we all just laugh at the Karens. And I think maybe I had that in mind. Is this the dog lady? Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember this? Yes, I remember this.

You look very excited. Yeah. Get going. Tell us all about it. Okay. Hang on. Yeah, I watched the viral video. Yeah.

I mean, who didn't? Yeah. It was nuts. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I watched the viral video. Yeah, I mean, who didn't? Yeah. It was nuts. Yes. Okay. Well, here we go. Shout outs to the New York Times and the Washington Post, but also a little help from my good friend, Wikipedia.

Ooh, wonderful. Okay. Ah, the summer of 2020 was the worst of times. It was the worst of times. Nuh-uh, London was born. Oh, the summer of 2020 was the worst of times. It was the worst of times. No, London was born. Oh, yeah. That was great. That was great.

You know what wasn't great? This racist lady at Central Park. Also COVID. Oh, yeah. So on May 25th, 2020, a black man named George Floyd. Do you remember this happened on the same day? I did not remember that. I didn't remember that it happened on the same day.

Holy shit. So, OK, just a little refresher. George Floyd was suspected of using a counterfeit $20 bill and he was murdered in the street by police. And he was murdered in the street by police. Police officer Derek Chauvin pressed his knee into George Floyd's neck for nine minutes and 29 seconds. While George Floyd said he could not breathe and asked him to stop. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Literally his last words were, I can't breathe. So George Floyd's murder was yet another example of horrific police brutality against an unarmed black man. And it sparked protests and activism and got people talking about how life threatening it can be to be a black man interacting with the police. But the conversation became bigger than that because it was also about people of color just being threatened with police interaction. Because it was also about people of color just being threatened with police interaction. And that was partly thanks to another incident that happened on that same day, just a few hours before George Floyd was murdered. It was the Central Park birdwatching incident. Or as most of us know it, the story of the Central Park, Karen. Yeah. Here we go.

Oh, my gosh. OK, let's talk about Christian Cooper. Christian Cooper comes from a family of super smart, creative people. Do you remember anything about him? No. Okay. So he's always,

I mean, I'm sure that I do, but nothing that I can. He's fucking cool. Yeah. In a nerdy way. Yeah. Okay. And I mean that as a compliment.

I mean, you're married to the gaming historian, so we get it. All right. Yeah, you're right. All I have to say is that. And it's like, OK. Oh, yeah. So his family had always been active in advocacy work. In fact, they have a family joke that you're not a Cooper until you've been arrested at a protest.

Wow. So he grew up in this environment where activism and discussion was encouraged i believe both his parents were teachers but i didn't write that down and okay are you ready for like the ultimate nerd stuff because here we go he's super into bird watching he's a bir Oh, is that what they call him? A birder. A birder? Yeah. Oh. I am not into bird watching at all. No. Don't give two shits about birds. I like when I see a cardinal because we always say that's like a visit from a loved one.

Sure. But rest of the birds can go fuck themselves. Is that too harsh? No, I mean, I kind of feel the same way. Norman is like into birds. Like sexually? Yes, and it's a mess. That's how it's messy.

Feathers everywhere. No, I teased him about this the other day because like every time we see a blue jay he gets weird about it and he's like oh blue jays are so beautiful and they are blue jays are beautiful but they're assholes they are assholes

I know but it's just funny to me that like every time he sees a blue jay he has to be like I like it but oh wait problematic I once had a blue jay, he has to be like, I like it. But oh, wait, problematic. Yeah. It's kind of, you know. I once had a blue jay build a nest like in my downspout, like on my front porch.

Every time I tried to leave my fucking house, that thing was like, no, it's coming for me. Did you almost die? I did. And I never say that. I was just talking about you the other day. About all the times you say you almost died. People, it's been a lot. It's been a lot.

I have a lot of near-death experiences. Now, when you actually hear the near-death death experiences they're not quite as dramatic. There's only actually been like one where like I could have actually died. Do you want to tell it now? My bike riding story that I just told you the other day? Sure. My dad would back me up because he thought for sure I was going to die that day.

Alright let's hear it. It's not a great story. I was on a family bike ride at Watkins Mill Park. And a serial killer was under the bridge. And I was like seven. I had a bike with pedal brakes and I was scared to use my pedal brakes. I don't like the way you're telling this story. You normally tell it quite dramatically.

I was scared to use my pedal brakes. So instead, I would put my feet down to stop me. And my dad was constantly yelling at me. Don't put your feet down. Use your me. Don't put your feet down. Use your brakes. Don't put your feet down. Use your brakes. You're going to hurt yourself.

Did I listen? No. And so there was this part on the trail where you were like – you had to go down like a little bit of a hill and then you had to go over a bridge and I got really nervous. And so as I went down the little hill towards the bridge, I put my feet down to slow myself down because I was afraid of my pedal brakes. I put my feet down to slow myself down because I was afraid of my pedal brakes. Well, because I put my feet down, I then veered off the trail and ran into a tree. Behind the tree was this pit of pedophiles. No!

It was a big drop-off into a rocky creek bed. Had I not hit the tree, I would have plummeted to my death into that creek bed. would have plummeted to my death into that creek bed. My dad was very upset with me and told me that he was for sure that I was going to die that day and that I needed to use my brakes. And then I'm sure he told me he loved me in there somewhere. No, he said he loved the tree. That's right. So, boy, I don't know how we got on that. Christian was a bird, was a birder.

A birder. A birder. Sorry, you can tell I only recently learned that term. Yeah, I've never heard that term before. And by recently, I mean like 24 hours. Right. We're learning all kinds of terms. Last week we learned ballooner.

No, a lunar. A lunar. A lunar, excuse me. Someone didn't learn it. Yeah. That's someone who has a balloon fetish. That's right. So that's going to come in handy in conversation for sure.

All the time. In fact, when Christian attended Harvard. Oh, my gosh. The Harvard of Cambridge. Yes. Okay. The Simmons of Cambridge. Oh, is that what people say?

Yeah, that's what they say. Not a lot of people have heard of Harvard. People are very impressed by Simmons University. He was the president of the Harvard Ornithological Club. Oh, yeah. Which I don't think I have to tell you is the oldest ornithology organization in these United States of America. And their slogan is, talk orny to me. Okay.

Me so orny. Me so orny. You're giving them so many good t-shirt ideas. That's right. Harvard, we expect a check. Did you know that Theodore Roosevelt was a member? I did not know that. Thank you, Wikipedia.

Yes. And there really wasn't much more that caught my eye, I'll be honest. And if you're thinking that this was just a little hobby that he dropped after he graduated, you should get a fucking clue. Because years later, he's still a birder. And he sat on the board of directors for the New York City Audubon Society. Oh, we heard about them before because of the books. Turns out he, okay, this is a back story. When he was like 11, his family went on a road trip.

Somebody got him the Birds of America book or whatever. And he like memorized it. And thus his love of birds was born. There you go. Yeah. All right. I didn't expect to tell that whole back story, but here we go. Evidently, he's the guy you want on your board of directors.

He was also on the board of directors for GLAAD back in the day. Oh. I know, right? Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation, in case anyone's stupid. Yeah, not the trash bag. They do such good work. They do such good work. It was one of his passions.

He loves products made by big corporations. He's like, how can I help them? So, okay, other cool things. He was Marvel Comics' first openly gay writer and editor. He introduced the first openly lesbian character for Marvel. What? That's awesome. There's more.

Wait, there's more. And he introduced the first gay male character in Star Trek Starfleet Academy. I'm very familiar with that. As we all are. I think it's a show. I'm pretty sure David watches it. Well, but this was a comic. Yeah, it's based on a comic.

Yeah. Okay. We've tapped out my knowledge. That's it. What's the language they speak? Is that Klingon? No. No. I probably offended people.

That's Star Trek. What did I just say? I thought you said Star Wars. No, Trek. Oh, okay. Then you're right. Yes. Sorry.

Excuse me. Yeah, that's a backup. Yeah. You're absolutely right. You know what the problem is? We're too cool. I don't know that that's the truth, but we're not this level of nerd. You know, I mean, I dabble in a lot of Harry Potter.

Dabble? Yeah. Is that the word? That's not. No. You have those Lego sets like on display in your home i have all of the harry potter lego sets okay yeah i'm i mean i'm up to my elbows in in harry potter nerdery okay i'm not just dipping a toe in.

Fun fact, he also edited the final two issues of the annual Marvel swimsuit special, which was a thing. That's a real thing? I mean, it was. Okay. I don't know. I'm having trouble here. Uh-oh. Uh-oh.

Getting judgy. Is this like a Sports Illustrated thing but for nerds? Yeah, I mean, it's like I guess if you want to jerk your ding dong to like... A cartoon? Yeah. I'm so judgmental. I mean, that's a whole category of porn. I know.

I know it is. I know. I know. Why do I judge? Why do I care? I don't know. It doesn't have to be your thing. It doesn't. No. And yet, I also want it to not be yours.

So you get the idea. Christian Cooper is a 57-year-old man. He's highly accomplished, loves writing and editing and watching birds. I believe at this time he was – oh, shit. Why didn't I write this down? He was like a biomedical editor at health science communication. I don't know. Okay, great.

I had it written down and then I was like, well, people care. Nobody wants that. And then, of course, you then wanted – we get it. You know how I am. Yep. Judging the porn choices but also weird about the little details. Okay. I heard you just watch porn that's just like a man and a woman missionary style and nothing else.

Darn right. It has to be a close-up of just their faces. That's right. Exactly. And it's on mute. I don't want to hear those fake noises. Certainly don't want to hear any weird music. That's exactly

right. And if you do, I'm judging you. That's right. Do you think there's anything I can do to get over my extreme judgment? No, I think that's... That's just you? That's anything I can do to get over my extreme judgment? No, I think that's... That's just you? That's just me? Yeah. Yeah.

You helped me. You've known me for a long time. I sure have. I don't think it's going anywhere. My ponytail's too high. I mean, those aren't even the words I wanted to say. Too tight? It's too tight.

And it's not a ponytail. It's a bun. Yeah. I wanted to say. Too tight? It's too tight. And it's not a ponytail. It's a bun. Yeah. I mean, sorry. We've all got problems. It was so tight that I couldn't call it a bun. Ponytail came out. Does that, I mean, that feels better.

Does it? Yeah, it looks good. Does it look the same? Yeah. Brandi, you've got very nice hair. Thank you. I appreciate that. I mean, you've been told this many times.

I have. As recently as my grandmother's funeral. That's correct. My Uncle Tom was like, Brandi, you got gray hair. Who knew that you would get so many compliments at my grandmother's funeral, huh? I did not. Everyone was so happy to see you. I know.

Was it weird for you? No, it was lovely. It was wonderful. Anyway, back to this. Boy, whoo, tangents. Yes. Okay. But birdwatching as a black man can be complicated.

Christian says he's always aware that if he's crouched in the bushes trying to look at a rare bird holding a metal object in his hands, he will be perceived differently than a white man if police come across that scene. Fuck, that sucks so much. Yeah. Yeah. As a white person, that's something you don't think about at all. No. That's fucking terrible. He also mentioned just having to be hyper aware of how he comes across to people.

So he wears these really cool like round wire rimmed glasses. And he said he's just never worn contacts because people react so differently to a black man who wears like – And he said specifically like nerdy little round glasses versus a black man who's not wearing glasses. Yeah. So, you know, he deals with that and, I mean, seems to have a pretty good life. He lives in New York City and he does a lot of bird watching in an area of Central Park called the Ramble. The Ramble is the special area of the park and it's home to a lot of bird watching in an area of Central Park called the Ramble. The Ramble is the special area of the park. And it's home to a lot of wildlife and, I guess, delicate plants.

And for that reason, there are some special rules for that area of the park. Not tough rules, mind you, but, you know. Namely, in the Ramble, you have to keep your dog on a leash. Sounds great. Yeah. Super easy. Yeah. Not a problem. Well, evidently. Unless fucking Central Park Karen comes along.

And by the way, it's not like some secret that like, oh, I'm supposed to keep my dog on a leash. There are signs all over the ramble that say dogs must be leashed at all times in the ramble. Easy. Yeah, you'd think so. So on the morning of May 25th, 2020, Christian was in the Ramble birding.

And a white woman named Amy Cooper walked into the Ramble with her cocker spaniel, Henry. Henry was off leash, which is not his fault. He is 10 out of 10. Henry, great. Goodest boy. Christian was off leash, which is not his fault. He is 10 out of 10. Henry, great. Goodest boy. Christian was annoyed. It turns out there's some animosity between bird watchers and these asshole dog owners. I'm calling them, people say dog owners. No, this is an asshole dog owner. Yes. Not every dog owner. Yeah, we are, we are, we are pausing here. Yes. I think anyone who listens to this podcast knows how I feel about dogs. Yes.

I'm obsessed with dogs. Absolutely. Love dogs. Yes. Do not let your dog out without a leash on. Yeah. I think that is such asshole behavior. Absolutely.

It's so entitled. Yeah. Unless you are like in a designated area for that i think it's so shitty well yeah and i think okay yes period absolutely specifically in this situation where you're talking about somebody who's watching birds a dog that's coming in unleashed right is going to run the birds off absolutely yeah like you're ruining the whole morning for this person. Yes. Who is there specifically to watch birds. Correct. Which I don't get, but.

No, I mean, I am also like, I mean, the story was like, he like got out of his comfortable bed. Yeah. And rode his bike down and like the, oh God, that sounds terrible. But. That's his thing. That's his thing. And he wanted to do it. I just think like, OK, I'm still on the off leash dogs.

Yeah. Because I feel like this is going to be a PSA. A lot of people have trauma around dogs. A lot of people are scared of dogs. And I think that's especially true for people of color because dogs have been used against people of color. Yeah. Especially by police. Yeah.

And so like I've had a few times when I've had a dog run up on me. It's scary as shit. And the owner who every time has been white, oh, he won't bite you. He won't bite you. Until he does. Exactly. Oh, thanks so much. Yeah.

Thank you for that. Yeah. Am I a little too fired up? We can see what you're passionate about. One time. Okay. Oh, no. We've got there started, folks.

Fired up. Again, love dogs. Anyway, this was several years ago ago i was in my old neighborhood i was walking peanut and this dog this big dog came bolting across the street barking scared the shit out of me yeah and of course the owner was like oh i'm i'm sorry he's he's friendly he's friendly is he he doesn't yeah I'm not getting real friendly vibes here. But, you know, I'm like, okay, because it's a neighbor. I don't know.

This is our first interaction. I'm kind of like, all right. Happened again a couple months later. Let me tell you. I wasn't super sweet about it. I gave her the look. Uh-huh. And I said, this is the second time this has happened.

Oh, yeah. Put your fucking dog on a leash. Uh-huh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. People really cower when I give them the eyeballs. I know.

You did it to that waitress who was rude to me about the burger. Did I really? Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember? You were like, I was like, should I say something to the manager? And you were like, yeah, probably. But I did give her a look.

So she knows for sure. She knows what she did. Everyone. Brandi talked about this on a Patreon episode. Oh, it was a bonus episode. Oh, waitress was really mean to my friend. She was super rude to me. Don't worry,

Kristen gave her a look. Don't worry, I solved it. I mean, I do give a bitchy look. You can, yeah, you can do it. You can whip it out.

I'll burn this house down with my look. She's got the look. Okay, anyway, I'm very sorry. I'm gonna go back to this script yeah uh blah blah blah um so christian obviously gets annoyed when people don't follow the rules yes it's a rule for a reason so he confronted the woman and here's how the their conversation

went according to him this is like what he posted later. Christian. Ma'am, dogs in the Ramble have to be on leash at all times. The sign is right there. Amy. The dog runs are closed. He needs his exercise. Christian.

All you have to do is take him to the other side of the drive, outside the Ramble, and you can let him run off leash all you want. Amy. It's too dangerous christian look if you're gonna do what you want i'm gonna do what i want but you're not gonna like it amy what's that okay so christian had this thing he did but i think it's kind of funny to prove a point to these asshole dog owners. He would keep dog treats on them. Oh, yeah. And he'd be like, fine, I'm just going to give your dog a treat. And, of course, they don't like it. Of course.

The dogs love it. The dogs love it. But the owners are like, eh. Yeah. So he's like, come here, puppy. And Amy goes, he won't come to you. And Christian goes, okay, we'll see about that. And he pulled out a dog treat.

you and Christian goes okay we'll see about that and he pulled out a dog treat and this is evidently an old trick with with bird watchers or birders as I personally call them and Christian said we'll see about that and he pulled out a dog treat and Amy kind of flipped out and grabbed her dog before the dog could come over and she she yelled, don't you touch my dog. So things are a little tense. Escalating. Yes. What's interesting to me is Christian wasn't feeling like there was any racial tension between them. Yeah. He just thought, okay, I need to pull out my phone and start recording this conflict between a birder and a dog walker.

Yeah. Because that's all he initially thought this was. It was just an asshole dog owner, you know. Yeah. Keeping her dog off leash. Yeah, I do what I fucking want. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rules don't apply to me. Mm-hmm. I hate people that think the rules don't apply to them. I know, because you think every rule applies to you. I am such a rule follower, so it drives me fucking crazy. Yeah. Yeah. I am like, I follow every rule. Even the stupid ones.

I do. I mean, it's true. It is. You told the story last week about when you had, did you have your learner's permit and you wanted to stay? Yes. I had my restricted license, OK? So I could only drive to school and work. I was like 15 years old.

On my way to and from work, I worked at a pizza place. Every time I worked, I drove past a Walgreens. I wanted to stop at that Walgreens so bad to shop for makeup. But I was convinced if I did that, I would get caught and I would like get sent to jail. Straight to jail. Straight to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200.

And so every day I just looked longingly at that Walgreens and I never fucking stopped. And so you know what I did? What? I had to get a job at Walgreens. And you ironically worked in the cosmetics department. That's exactly right. This is my Walgreens cosmetics department origin story. I think you just inspired a lot of people.

That's right. So, the first few seconds of the video are pretty quiet. Did I already say that he pulled out his camera? Yeah. The birds are chirping. They're in a pretty big open area, but surrounded by trees. It's really beautiful. Yeah, it is beautiful.

And, oh, do you remember this? I remember this very good. I fucking remember her grabbing her fucking dog by the throat. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh, this one stuck with you.

Oh, yeah. So Amy has her dog by the collar. Mm-hmm. And she's several yards away from Christian. Yeah. He's fairly far away. Yeah. She looks up, sees that Christian is filming her, and she starts walking toward him and says, please stop.

She's got her leash in one hand. She's dragging the dog by the collar with the other. Sir, I'm asking you to stop. She's getting closer and closer. And Christian says in a calm voice, please don't come close to me. Sir, I'm asking you to stop recording me. Please don't come close to me.

Amy then points her finger weirdly high, like she's giving like a one-finger Hitler salute. Oh, God. I'm sorry for describing it that way, but it looks bizarre. Yes. And she says, please take your phone off. Christian.

What Christian hasn't told us is that Christian was 7'3". It all makes sense when you say that. No, that was a joke. He's not really 7'3". Christian says, again, please don't come close to me. Amy backs up. She's got her dog by the collar, lifting it in the air. Lifting it in the air. She's choking her fucking dog.

Yeah, who she's so concerned about. Yes. It's so that the dog's head is near her waist and only its hind legs are on the ground. She says, then I'm taking a picture and calling the cops. Okay, bitch. Christian says, please call the cops. Yes.

Please call the cops. What are you going to fucking tell them? Yeah. This guy asked me to follow the rules. Then Amy says, I'm going to tell them there's an African-American man threatening my life. Hold the fucking phone.

Like, OK. Really escalated things there, ma'am. Is that really what's happening? Absolutely. Absolutely. And Christian goes, please tell them whatever you like. Yeah.

So Amy's got her phone out with one hand. She's strangling the shit out of her dog with the other. And Amy's call goes through to 911. And she says somewhat calmly, I'm sorry. I'm in the ramble. And there's a man, African-American. He has a bike helmet,

he is threatening me and my dog. And by this point... He has a bike helmet! And he's just waving it around! There is nothing more terrifying than a man with a bike helmet! Yeah.

Yeah. So she's still, she's pretty far away from him at that point. But she's getting more agitated. There is an African-American man.

He is recording me threatening myself and my dog. I'm sorry. I can't hear. I am being threatened by a man in the Ramble. Please send the cops

immediately. I'm in Central Park in the Ramble. I send the cops immediately. I'm in Central Park in the Ramble. I don't know. Okay. Holy shit. This bitch. Yeah.

Then she put her dog on a leash. And Christian, who had been quietly recording this whole thing, just says, thank you. And the recording ends. Thoughts, comments, concerns? I'd love to hear what happens now because this went viral. Everybody saw this woman being a racist bitch in the park and practicing animal cruelty. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy and Christian both left the park before the cops arrived. The dispatcher called Amy back and at that time Amy repeated her assertion that an African-American man had, quote, tried to assault her. Oh, had he? That didn't come out until later that there had been this follow-up call. Okay. So there are—I'm debating when to say this part. There are some, like, truthers on this. The thing that they like to bring up is that in this 911 call, this initial 911 call, the dispatcher could not hear Amy very well.

It kept cutting out. And so people say, well, that's why she kept repeating herself and why she got more agitated. Okay. I listened to part of this 911 call. And yeah, I'm sure that is why she's repeating herself. But it doesn't explain why she is just flipping the fuck out when he is so far away. Yeah. She's the one who came at him.

Yes. Anyway, I'm just going to throw that out there because people are like, well, what you don't know what the media doesn't tell you. OK, I'm telling you. And boy, I don't think it's a smoking gun. Right. Anyway. What Amy had just done was not lost on Christian. And what she'd done was unmistakably racist.

Yeah. He posted the video on Facebook with a write up of what they'd said to each other before he began filming. And Christian's sister, Melody Cooper, saw the video and was disgusted. What the woman in that video did could have been very dangerous for her brother. I mean, that could have killed. That's like. Absolutely. He could have died.

Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sorry. She had to know that. Absolutely. Like you. There's a reason you you threatened him. Yeah.

You said, I'm going to call the cops and tell them an African-American man. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know what you're doing. Mm hmm. Yeah. said, I'm going to call the cops and tell them an African-American man is threatening me. Melody later said that she was, quote, through with the weaponization of white women's tears. Oh, yeah. So I've talked a lot about how accomplished Christian is, but Melody is also super accomplished. She's a writer, a producer, a big fucking deal. I think she wrote an episode of Law & Order SVU.

Okay. Her IMDB page is quite full. So she decided to post this video on Twitter. And wow, the video took off. It racked up millions of views in like no time.

And it didn't take long for people to identify the woman in the video. Apparently, Amy's dog walker was the one who identified her. Yeah, she was probably pissed about how she was treating that dog. She probably liked that dog more than Amy did.

Uh. Amy.. Amy. Oh, God. Anyway, I'll save it. But she definitely liked the dog better than she liked Amy, I'm sure. Yeah. Pretty soon, the name Amy Cooper started trending on Twitter. It was outrageous.

On the same day that George Floyd was murdered to see this woman weaponize her white womanhood against a black man. It spoke to a huge issue that needed to be addressed. And it was addressed. At the time, Amy was employed by Franklin Templeton Investments, where she was the head of insurance portfolio management. Oh, you remember all this. That day, her employer, of course, saw the video. Can you imagine? I can't. And they placed her on administrative leave while they performed an investigation. And the next day they fired her and they tweeted about it. Yeah. They tweeted, following our internal review of the incident in Central Park yesterday, we have made the decision

to terminate the employee involved effective immediately. We do not tolerate racism of any kind at Franklin Templeton. People who watched the video were troubled by Amy's racist behavior. And they were, frankly, a little concerned about that dog, too. Because she's dragging the little guy around

by the collar. At one point, he choked and coughed. Yeah. So Abandoned Angels Cocker Spaniel Rescue, which was the organization that she had adopted Henry from two years earlier, took custody of the dog. They had a veterinarian look him over, determine that Henry was in good health, and they returned him to Amy's custody. So, I mean, there were consequences for Amy's actions. She lost her job, I think rightfully so. Who would want to be associated with that behavior?

No, you wouldn't. People were super pissed, rightfully so. But she got doxxed and she got death threats. Oh, shit. Yeah. And all of that made Christian super uncomfortable. I shouldn't say super uncomfortable about the doxxing and the death threats. He was unequivocal, like, this is terrible.

Yeah. But he worried that people were focusing on this one incident rather than looking at the bigger picture of systemic racism. He told the New York Times, if our goal is to change the underlying factors, I'm not sure that this young woman having her life completely torn apart serves that goal. Wow. Yeah. Ooh, that gave me goosebumps. Talk about being the bigger person.

No shit, right? Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. Prepare to be very impressed by how he handles this whole thing because it's incredible. In the days that followed, he continued to be very generous and kind to this woman who filed a false police report on him. Yeah. On Good Morning America, he said, I don't know whether she's a racist or not.

I don't know her life. I don't know how she lives it. That act was unmistakably racist, even if she didn't realize it in the moment. I'm not sure someone's life should be defined by 60 seconds of poor judgment. Wow. Yeah. I I remember

being blown away by his response to all this. Because he's giving her an opportunity to do better. Yeah. He's extending her so much grace. Yeah. All she has to do is take it. Yeah.

How's she handle it? Can't wait for you to tell us. For the record, Christian's sister disagreed with him. And I get that fully. Melody said, he's very much taking the high road. His point of view is a little bit different than mine. I think that's exactly how I feel. You do that to my loved one.

Yeah. I'm not going to be like, well, let's not rush to judgment. I'd be like, no, judge. Judge away. Yeah. By this point, Amy had issued a public apology to Christian. It read, I want to apologize to Chris Cooper for my actions when I encountered him in Central Park yesterday. I reacted emotionally and made false assumptions about his intentions when, in fact, I was the one who was acting inappropriately

by not having my dog on a leash. When Chris began offering treats to my dog and confronted me in an area where there was no one else nearby and said, you're not going to like what I'm going to do next, I assumed we were being threatened when all he had intended to do was record our encounter on his phone. He had every right to request that I leash my dog in an area when it was required. I am well aware of the pain that misassumptions and

insensitive comments about race cause and would never have imagined that I would be involved in the type of incident that occurred with Chris. I hope that a few mortifying seconds in a lifetime of 40 years will not define me in his eyes and that he will accept my sincere apology. What do you think? That's a very PR answer. Yeah, she hired a PR person. I also don't think it's great.

Yeah. It seems a little defensive to me. Yeah. There's a lot of distance between what she did. Yeah. I would be involved in the type of incident that occurred with Chris. Well, you caused the incident. Right.

Yeah. You weren't just involved with it. He made a reasonable request. Yes. You didn't like it. Yeah. And you decided I've got some power here. My power is my whiteness and I'm going to use it against this man.

Yeah. And who fucking cares what happens to him? Yeah. I know what could happen to him. He knows what could happen to him. Yeah. I'm going to end this conflict. Mm hmm.

A few days after that apology, Christian and Melody went on The View to discuss the incident. He again was so generous to Amy, he said he accepted her apology. He didn't excuse that she'd committed a racist act, but he said, but should that define her entire life? I don't know. But should that define her entire life? I don't know. Only she can tell us if that defines her entire life by what she does going forward and what she's done in her past.

Again, I feel like he's giving you this opportunity. So much, Chris. He's giving you this opportunity to work on yourself. In the interview, he reiterated that this wasn't just about Amy. This is about the underlying racism that, quote, permeates this city and this country and that she tapped into. But as big as this was, Amy hadn't yet faced any consequences through the justice system. She'd called the cops and lied. Yeah.

And not just lied, but made a point of saying that the man who was threatening her and her dog was an African-American man. That fact had been central to her phone call with the police. So New York State Assemblyman Felix Ortiz was like, Hey, everyone, remember that time like two years ago when I said that instances where someone falsely reports a criminal incident against someone from a protected group of people should be considered a hate crime? Remember that? Yeah. That's a pretty good idea, huh? And all of a sudden people were like, oh, yeah, we should probably do that.

So Felix Ortiz reintroduced that bill along with four co-sponsors and Governor Andrew Cuomo. Yikes. Sign it into law in June of 2020. Yeah. Boy. Careful where you step in this story. So thanks to that law, people could face prison time if they falsely report a crime and the, quote, motivation for reporting such crime is motivated by a perception or belief about race, color, national origin, you know, the whole shebang. Later, on July 6th, Amy Cooper was charged with filing a false police report.

This was big news. It's very rare to actually face charges on that, partly because, you know, they don't want to discourage people from reporting crimes. Yes, of course. But the evidence was right there. Yeah. The charge was a misdemeanor, and Amy Cooper faced up to a year in prison. She was ordered to appear in court that October. Her attorney, Robert Barnes, was confident and also douchey.

Cool. He released a statement saying that Amy Cooper was going to be found not guilty. And he said that we were in a, quote, cancel culture epidemic. Yeah. Yeah. It's fun to look at all the people who we've said were canceled and be like, oh, wait, who just got a Grammy? OK, never mind. He said she lost her job, her home and her public life.

Now some demand her freedom. How many lives are we going to destroy over misunderstood 60 second videos on social media. What's wrong, Brandy? You look troubled. I am troubled. Naturally, people wanted to know what Christian thought about Amy being charged. And his thoughts were way more complicated than people bargained for. He said essentially that if the DA wants to pursue charges, go ahead.

But he's not going to do it with any support from me. Wow. Yeah. Christian said she's already paid a steep price. Bringing her more misery just seems like piling on. This guy. I know. I know. I know. Holy shit.

Christian wrote about his position in an opinion piece for the Washington Post. And it's long, but I think it's really good and very interesting. So I'm going to read a lot of it. Yeah. Do it. Here's what he wrote. I've said all along that I think it's a mistake to focus on this one individual. The important thing the incident highlights is the longstanding, deep-seated racial bias against us black and brown folk that permeates the United States. Bias that can bring horrific consequences, as with the killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis later the same day I encountered Amy Cooper. Or just small daily cuts. Why did Cooper so easily tap into the toxic racial bias in the heat of the moment when she

was looking for a leg up in our confrontation? Why is it surprising to no one that the police might have charged to her aid with special vengeance on hearing that an African American was involved? And most important of all, how do we fix policing so that scenarios such as this are replaced by a criminal justice system that is truly just and equitable to Black people? Focusing on Amy Cooper lets white people off the hook from all of that. They can scream for her head while leaving their own prejudices unexamined. They can push for her prosecution and pat themselves on the back for having done something about racism when they've actually done nothing, and their own Amy Cooper remains only one purse clutch in the presence of a black man away. Those concerns must be weighed against

what prosecuting the case means for us black people. I appreciate that it is important to uphold the principle of law and that those who try to turn racism to their advantage by filing false claims against a person of color should be held accountable. But note that laws against filing a false police report are already on the books and will remain enforceable, whether applied in this case or not. Finally, I believe in punishments that are commensurate with the wrongdoing. Considering that Amy Cooper has already lost her job and reputation, it's hard to see what is to be gained by a criminal charge, aside from the upholding of principle. If her current setbacks aren't deterrent enough to others seeking to weaponize race, it's unlikely the threat of legal action would change that. Meanwhile, for offenders who don't suffer consequences like Cooper's, the law is still there to exact a price.

who don't suffer consequences like Cooper's, the law is still there to exact a price. Would I consider it fair and just if Cooper were found guilty and sentenced to anti-bias training and some form of community service? Yes, but Black people know all too well that the criminal justice system often doesn't work that way. That an ambitious DA with an election next year Okay, last paragraph. Oh my gosh, I can't believe this guy. I know. I'm so impressed by him. I know. My favorite paragraph was the one where he's like.

People are going nuts on this one incident. They're calling for her head so they don't have to. We don't have to, like, look at ourselves and examine our own biases. I think that's exactly what's behind it. her head so they don't have to – we don't have to like look at ourselves and examine our own biases. I think that's exactly what's behind it. Well, at the same time, I'm like also – but also – Also, yeah. She could – some bad stuff could happen. Can we have both?

Yeah. Just like a little bit. No, but his point about it being an election and like making an example of this woman. He called the DA out. Yeah. Wow. OK, finish. Read his last paragraph.

This is what happens when a Harvard guy is at the center of a scandal. No fucking kidding. So while acknowledging the principle at stake, I must err on the side of compassion and choose not to be involved in this prosecution. Let the DA do his job. He has already decided to pursue charges. If he feels my involvement is essential to the case, he can subpoena me. If subpoenaed, I will testify truthfully and accurately. Otherwise, the case is the DA's, not mine. Wow. I love that. Yeah.

There's a little more to it. I feel like I read that whole damn thing, but I think he makes some incredible points. Yeah. And I think the overarching point is like prosecuting her is not for me. That's not for me. Yeah, that's for you. Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

I love that he said that. It's for the DA with an election next year. Yeah. And it's for white people who don't want to examine their own biases. It's for people who don't want a massive systemic change. Yeah. Which is a lot of people. So I think perhaps because of Christian's stance, when Amy Cooper appeared in court

that October, she was given the option to attend five therapy sessions focused on racial bias in exchange for the charge being dismissed. And, I mean, she, of course, said yes to that. Took it and there was like an Amy-sized hole in the courtroom wall. Where they could change their mind. Yeah, really. She's like, yeah. So in February of 2021, a judge officially dismissed the charge against Amy Cooper. She'd attended the five therapy sessions and her therapist reported that the sessions were, quote, a moving experience and that she'd, quote, learned a lot.

But had she? How do you know that? How can you be so sure? How do you know that? How can you be so sure? Amy's lawyer took to Twitter and thanked the DA's office for a, quote, thorough and honest inquiry. Then he issued a warning. He tweeted, we thank them for their integrity and concur with the outcome. Others rushed to the wrong conclusion based on inadequate investigation, and they may yet face legal consequences.

Oh, may they? They may. Yeah. So Amy learned a lot. Yeah. For sure. No questioning that. Also, she's going to sue her employer for wrongful that's exactly right almost exactly a year after she famously weaponized her white womanhood

can you imagine wow i mean Wow. I mean, to not try to take this as an opportunity. Right. And I do feel sorry for her with the doxing and the death threats and everything. Of course. But there's a reason people are upset. Mm-hmm. Amy. Yeah. Amy.

Yep. So yeah, you called it. She sued her former employer, Franklin Templeton, in her lawsuit. Just to clarify, I didn't know that going into this. Oh, no, but you saw that coming. Snipped it out. You're like, yeah, those five therapy sessions didn't do shit. Yeah, I really did wonders for her.

I do think that's so funny. I'm sorry. Five therapy sessions? Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, that'll fix that. Yeah. A woman who calls the police is like, I'm African. I'm an arrogant man.

He's threatening me and my dog. While you put your dog in a chokehold. Yeah, exactly. In her lawsuit, she claimed that the company defamed her and discriminated against her based on her race and gender. Oh, fuck off, Amy. She was a victim of racism. What?

She was given every opportunity to, by Christian Cooper, to turn this, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around, turn around. She didn't fucking do it. She could have just sang that song a lot. You know what I'm going to do with my life? Yeah. Oh, shit. And like, yeah, you're not going to get another high profile job like this. But, you know, there are consequences.

Yeah. Just like there might have been consequences for him if the police had shown up. Exactly. So, yeah, in conclusion, she was the victim. The complaint stated, even a perfunctory investigation would have shown. I don't like that word. Glad I could delight you with that word. Thank you.

I've got to be honest, sometimes I didn't quote Christian because his words were too big. It was enough for me to say ornithology or whatever that is. I'll hit it again just for the double of your pleasure.

Even a perfunctory investigation would have shown that plaintiff did not shout at Christian Cooper or call the police from Central Park on May 25th, 2020 because she was a racist. She. What? No, not because she was a racist. No. Brandy, God damn it. No.

Yeah. You ready? You ready for the reason? Okay. She did these things because she was alone in the park and frightened to death after being selected as the next target of Christian Cooper, an overzealous birdwatcher engaged in Central Park's ongoing feud between birdwatchers and dog owners. Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. That's some bullshit. She was frightened to death. Okay. Dog owners. Pew, pew, pew, pew, pew. That's some bullshit.

She was frightened to death. Okay. Yeah, that's why she approached him. Approached him, yeah. Yeah. Kept coming at him. Yeah. While he calmly told her not to come after him. Sure thing.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, she was just terrified. Yeah. She said they'd performed no investigation into the incident. They'd not interviewed her. They'd not interviewed Christian Cooper. Didn't bother trying to get a copy of the full 911 call.

To which I say, well, sometimes you don't need the full. Yeah. I mean, like, once you've seen enough, I think you can stop. Mm-hmm. I think that video showed plenty. It sure did. Like, yeah, we don't want our company associated with you. It sure did.

The lawsuit read, Franklin Templeton's alleged investigation and results provided legitimacy to the Karen story and appeared to provide justification for those who sought the destruction of the plaintiff's life. Okay. Yeah, because before her employer did that, the Karen story was real up in the air. We weren't sure, is she a Karen? We just don't know. Plus, get ready to be angry. They were totally rude and ignored the fact that she'd been a really great employee and she'd earned a high performer bonus three years in a row.

Okay. But, okay, did she remember the part where she was like a racist asshole in the part? No. You're confused. I don't blame you because the media got this so wrong. She was not racist. She was frightened to death by this African-American man who had a dog treat and a bike helmet. Mm-hmm.

Oh, that's right, because he was just like waving it around all over the place. He didn't know. I'm sorry. She didn't know what he was going to do. That's right. Uh-huh. Kill her dog first, then her. Yeah.

Dog, well, her first, then the dog. Yeah. Maybe take that bike helmet and knock them both out at the same time. That's right. Terrifying. Mm-hmm. Amy sought compensation for lost wages, emotional distress, attorney's fees, punitive damages, along with some other... Tell me this got thrown out.

Unfortunately, you have to keep your pants on. Okay. And I want your pants off oh my god is there me to take my pants off right now. So she wanted the amount of these damages to be determined at trial. Yeah. Right. Good for her. Franklin Templeton responded publicly to this lawsuit

and said Can't wait to hear it. Can't wait to hear it. They said we believe the circumstances of the situation speak for themselves. We will defend against these baseless... Baseless... Baseless clans. Thank you.

We all got it. Blah, blah, blah. It does speak for itself. Yeah. Give me a fucking break, Amy. It sure fucking does. Fuck off. Anyway, in August of 2021, Franklin Templeton moved to get the lawsuit dismissed.

And their court filing was delightfully sassy, so I'd like to read part of it now. Absolutely. Please do. Notwithstanding her public apologies for perpetuating systemic racism, Cooper is, once again, casting herself as victim, vilifying the birdwatcher, and portraying the incident as merely another, quote, feud between birdwatchers and dog owners. Just months after criminal charges against Cooper were dismissed on the ground that she allegedly learned a lot through restorative justice classes on racial equity, Cooper filed this lawsuit seeking to shift the blame onto defendants.

Take accountability. Yeah. So that happened in August of last year. I wasn't able to find anything recent on this story. Yeah. I hope they didn't settle this. I fucking't able to find anything recent on this story. Yeah. I hope they didn't settle this. I fucking hope not too. Because my god

she doesn't deserve any money. So perhaps they did settle this. But you know you'd better believe that if this goes to trial I will be glued to the coverage. Absolutely. Okay. One last thing. Oh, God.

Okay. In August of 2021, Amy Cooper broke her silence about this whole thing. Oh, yeah? Yeah. She agreed to be interviewed on a conservative podcast. They titled this episode The Real Story of the Central Park Care. What's the podcast? It's called Honestly.

Never heard of it. Yeah. Not my usual listening, I would say. So I listened to it just because I was kind of like, well, if she's, this is her first time talking about this. Okay, I want to hear it. Yeah. I don't think it was quite as groundbreaking as they thought it was. You know, the real story. But I was interested to hear her take.

So she said that that day she felt very threatened by Christian. She was worried about her safety and her dog's safety. She said that she'd been sexually assaulted in college and that played into her fear of being in an isolated area with a man. And that played into her fear of being in an isolated area with a man. She was also afraid because he was holding a dog treat in one hand and his bike helmet in the other. The overall take of this podcast was that Amy had been cast in the wrong light. I obviously don't agree. The thing they mentioned was that thing about how the 911 dispatcher hadn't heard her very well, which I do think that's, you know, worth throwing out there.

I don't think it really excuses anything. It's not a smoking gun to me. So, you know, she's kind of presented her side. All right. But personally, I think this really says it all. Amy said she'd like to have a conversation with Christian because, you know, they've never talked since the incident. And if that could happen, she'd like to open the conversation by saying, I'm sorry. Oh, no.

That's the only thing she should say. Agreed. But what she wants to say is, you scared me. Go fuck yourself. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely fuck off. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely fuck off. Yeah.

The other infuriating thing was she talked about how her charge was dismissed. And it's like people don't even acknowledge that it's over. The thing was dismissed. I'm sorry. It was dismissed, I would argue, in large part because Christian was incredibly generous to her. Yes. And said he was not going to participate in this unless he was subpoenaed. Yes.

Yeah. And like she can't acknowledge that at all. Anyway, so what did she learn from all this nothing not a damn thing fucking nothing and that is the story of the central park karen cool that is infuriating yeah i really was like i just want a light funny one and i man boy – man, boy, did I fuck that up. Didn't find it here. No. It is so infuriating. Wow.

Wow. I mean how incredible could it have been if she'd really done some soul searching? Yeah. Well, and actually, how incredible could it have been if there were like some big systemic changes? I'm still small potatoes here. Yeah. All I can say is Christian is awesome. Yeah.

Seriously. Like, I could not believe his handling of all this. And also, like, again, that thing about white people want her head on a platter because it allows them to go after her but not examine themselves. It's like, ooh. Yeah. Christian, careful. You's like, whoo. Yeah. Christian, careful. You're hitting close to home. Exactly.

That's exactly right. Yeah. Oh, shit. Well, that was wonderful and infuriating. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's weird how the real story is that he was really scary. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That is weird. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's weird how the real story is that he was really scary. That is weird. Yeah. This has been quite the episode. It has. You really titillated me with that. I'm so glad I could titillate you. That was my goal. The whole time you're like, this doesn't seem like a mystery.

Hey, I sound way sexier than that always. I mean, this sounds pretty straightforward out here. Mystery here at all. How dare you? That's exactly what you said. I was a little like, what the fudge? Where the fudge is the mystery? Yeah.

It is a mystery. It is. I just had to be patient, which is not my strong suit. You know what we should do now? What should we do? We should take some questions from the Discord. Ooh, let's do it. To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at any level.

That gets you in the Discord, and on days when we record, we send out a little notification and ask for questions, or as Kristen likes to say, questionies. And then I cringe for weeks, and no one lets me forget it. Oh, this is a controversial question in this room. Okay.

Long-term roommate number one asks, Oreo double stuff or normal stuff? Norm and I both say double stuff. Kristen? Too much stuff. It's too much. It's wrong. There's such thing as too much. And you know where you find that?

In the double stuffed Oreo. No. Big Red Ute says, will one of you cover the Kristen Smart case? I'm obsessed. You're going to do it? I am obsessed. Did you listen to the podcast? Hell yes, I did.

I listened to all of it. Okay, so I have to apologize because Fierce Mama Llama in the Discord has been suggesting I cover... For eight million years. I mean, yeah, just... Here's my embarrassing mistake. I, turns out, for like forever, have been

Elizabeth Spark. Recommending the Elizabeth Spark case. Yeah. And for whatever reason, that one just doesn't quite jump out to me. The other thing she kept saying was like, you and Kristen Smart have a lot of stuff in common. I was like, what?

Elizabeth Smart, isn't she like a Mormon girl? She's like, ow! What? What could we possibly have in common? So literally for years, I've been like, what? No, no, this is not the case suggestion for me. No, it absolutely is.

You should do it. I don't know anything about it. Oh, hold on to your hat. I mean, it is wild. But, yeah, it's going to be a big one. Yeah. I'm intimidated. Yeah.

You know what I listened to in the past, two weeks what down the hill yes i'm obsessed now i know you are i know i know i i listened to that and i'm like brandy if she catches wind of this i mean, my gosh. The fact that we have audio and video of the killer and we still don't – Don't know who he is? Well, I mean we kind of know now. You think we do? I think we – OK. I think it is just out there bananas that we they have never released how they were killed.

Yeah. That means. It has to be unspeakably horrible. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Anyway, stay tuned.

I'm sure at some point. We'll cover all of that. Yeah. Brandy's Zoom anxiety. Ask Brandy, is there any word or phrase London says incorrectly that you secretly don't want her to ever correct? Ham, ham. She says so many things so funny, but my favorite one right now. Okay, I got her this pair of black and white tie-dye Crocs.

She loves her Crocs. She loves them so much. But she can't say croc. So every morning she asks if she can wear her cocks. When I like get her dressed, it's like time for shoes. She'll pick them up and go, cocks, cocks. Great. Yes, little baby, you can wear your cards. You be whoever you want to be today. That's right. Ooh, Skunch and Scrunch says, listening to this week's Discord section, you could totes do a No Court November to do your dream cases that don't fit the theme of this podcast. That's so funny.

That's a great idea. That really is a good idea. Okay, we'll consider it. Hold on just a second. What? Calm Down Cordelia says what's your favorite floor cleaning method? My husband swears by

ye old mop and bucket, but I live for my cross wave. Thoughts? What's a cross wave? A cross wave. I have one. Okay, the reason I asked is I was like, I don't have. What's a cross wave? A cross wave. I have one. The reason I asked is I was like, I don't have any idea what a cross wave is, but you are so weirdly passionate. I sure fucking have one.

What's a cross wave? It's like a combination of a vacuum and a mop. Why on earth are you so smug? Because it's so fucking cool. Works amazingly. Well, now I kind of want one. You need one in your life. Especially, I have the pet edition one.

Oh. Sucks up all the pet hair. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you can go seamlessly from a rug to the hardwoods to the tile. Oh, shit. You fucking need it. Is it lightweight?

It is lightweight. And I have the cordless one. It's amazing. Lord almighty. Oh, jeez. They're a little pricey, but here's what I'll tell you what I did. What'd you do? I got mine.

Stole it. No. I purchased mine from Kohl's so that I got some Kohl's cash with it. And that's like getting it on sale. And then I bought London clothes with the Kohl's cash. Kohl's cash? Yeah. How old are you?

83. You've never used Kohl's cash? No. I got London like a whole summer wardrobe last year with my Kohl's cash. How much is this bad boy going to run me? It's like 300 bucks. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. It's not like, yeah, it's not insane. Alright. Yeah. But it'll get you some Kohl's cash. Get you some Kohl's cash? By the way, not sponsored. You can buy yourself some kitchen organizational stuff with your Kohl's cash.

Speaking your language now, aren't I? Shut up. I do love having my kitchen nice and organized. I know. having my kitchen nice and organized. I know. I've seen all your stuff. You're one step away from a TikTok video. I really am.

I just bought a whole bunch of, God, we're so old. But I have to tell you, I just bought a whole bunch of meal prep things. So things look so nice in my fridge. Yeah, I bet they do. I'm the envy of all the neighborhood. Like things look so nice in my fridge. Yeah, I bet they do. I'm the envy of all the neighborhood. The floppy did me in. This question is for Brandy. Have you ever had a client get a bunch of services done and then refuse to pay?

A coworker of mine said she was at a salon when a girl who had about $400 worth of services said she didn't like her hair and refused to pay. What do you do when something like this happens? Has this happened to you? Never happened to me. I've seen videos of this happening. I've seen, like, posts about it in some hairstylist groups that I'm in. It does happen. It's called theft of service.

Yeah, it would be terrible. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That would be awful. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That would be awful. I asked my tattoo artist a similar question. I'm like, have you ever finished a tattoo? And someone had been like, I don't have the money to pay for this.

And he's like, I've had someone say they don't have enough money. And then I'm like, okay, you better call someone up here and bring you some more money because you're not leaving with that until it's paid for. Right. Yeah. You know, I fortunately have never had that happen. But, yeah, I have heard of that happening. And, like, I've heard of people very intentionally doing that, going into a salon. Oh, sure.

Yeah. Yeah. Not legitimately being unhappy with their service, like just wanting to get shit for free. Yeah, that's what I'm imagining. Yes. Yeah. Oh, that's what i'm yes imagining yes yeah oh that's shitty if you're gay wants to know how do you feel about amber turd pooping on the bed a hilarious way of asking if we're following the john Depp trial. And yes, we are. Yes, we are.

Yes, we are. Johnny Depp on the stand. I love him. Yeah. He is hilarious. But he gets his point across. Yeah. I think he's so good.

And man, he is making Amber Heard's legal team look like a bunch of dumbasses. He sure is. Yeah. He sure is. I mean, I don't know that he needed much effort in that sense, but yeah. Philosophically correct, as have either of you seen Turning Red, the 2000s boy band vibes in that movie seem like something y'all can relate to. Yes. So we watched this.

Kristen has not seen this, obviously. This is no surprise to me. We watched this. I had my sister Casey and her husband over, and then we watched it with Jack in London and David. Loved it so much. And the girls, it's like a group of, like, eighth graders dealing with, like, puberty and stuff. And, like, they're very obsessed with a boy band. And my brother-in-law james was

like how accurate is this like as far as like a teenage girl being into a boy band i'm like 100 accurate completely accurate like they know all the dance moves oh yeah absolutely oh james come on yeah Ba, ba, ba. That's right. Honk If You're Gay asks, what's your favorite scent that triggers a good memory? Mine is coconut Nexus shampoo. Oh. It's a smell I love. It reminds me of my grandmother.

Yeah. When I was a little girl, my grandma watched me. And she would let me – she had like short curly hair. She had naturally very curly hair and she kept it just kind of like in a little round. Yeah, the grandma style. And she would let me do all kinds of shit to her hair. I'd put mousse in it and smooth it all down so that she just had like a ring of curls around the edge. I'd put barrettes and shit in it like constantly. And then after I was done, she'd wash her hair in the sink and she always used Nexus

shampoo that smells like coconut. And so anytime I smell that, it just reminds me of my grandma and those like memories of like messing with my grandma's hair. Love it. So nostalgic to me. So was it a couple months ago when I brought it down? Yes. Yes, I was doing your hair and I washed your hair out with your Nexus.

I was like, oh, my gosh, it reminds me of my grandma. I have a lot of old lady stuff. I also eat cottage cheese and peaches as a snack. I love cottage cheese and peaches. That's way less weird than most things you eat cottage cheese and peaches as a snack. I love cottage cheese and peaches. That's way less weird than most things you eat cottage cheese with. What? You dip chips in cottage cheese? Well, that's delicious.

You eat cottage cheese with your spaghetti? I do. You eat it on a fucking baked potato? Yeah. You fucking weirdo. Don't look at me like I'm making this up. I also like it because I'm having a steak. Just like a little cottage cheese.

Just a little dab. I, too, love cottage cheese. But I don't do it like that. I like cottage cheese. Oh, you do it the right way? I like cottage cheese by itself. No, that's the strangest thing ever. I like cottage cheese with peaches. I like cottage cheese with

pineapple. I like cottage cheese with applesauce. That's probably the weirdest I get. And that's a Pitts family. Yeah, you learned that. I learned that from you. Yes, I learned it by watching you. Yeah, but that's where I draw the line. Oh, no, there's one more. What?

I like it on a salad bar. I'll put it on my salad at a salad bar. You know what COVID has taken from us? Salad bars. It's true. Funny Bunny asks, do you guys actually read through this insane amount of questions or just pick randomly? We read through most of them. Also, Pepsi or Coke?

Coke. Dr. Pepper or Mr. Pip? Dr. Pepper. I mean, I like them all. Sorry, I really missed the assignment on that one. You don't have a, I mean, you don't drink a lot of soda. No, I don't. So like when I do have a soda, it's like, oh, my God, this is the best thing I've ever had.

Oh, my God, this is so good. And then you just like bounce off the walls for three days. Yeah, that's exactly right. Ooh, Madness asks, what are your zodiac signs and are you true to them? I am a Gemini and I'm very true to my Gemini traits. What does that mean? All kinds of stuff. Well, please don't tell us anything.

I mean, there's kind of like two sides to a Gemini. Also, we dissect all of our foods apparently. You know. All right. All right. I'm Scorpio, which means I'm a cold hard bitch. Yeah. And you be the judge.

Ooh, Shay, like the butter ass, have you watched the Abercrombie and Fitch? Yes. I haven't watched it yet. Don't. Why? Because you're going to cover it? Yeah. Like soon?

Maybe. I don't know. You talk about nostalgic. I mean, you just like, oh, you forget about that time. I mean, I can smell. I know. I can smell it. I can too.

And they talked about it in that documentary how like it was people's job to just go around spraying that shit everywhere. Oh, yeah. It was so funny. Like they talked a lot about the photos of the models. And I remember, like, you know, you'd get your Abercrombie bag and you'd want it hot dude facing out. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I used to use those as my book covers.

I told Norman that. Yeah. I was like, Brandy was obsessed. Yep. Yep. When we were, yeah, like in middle school, you had to make book covers for your textbooks. And I made them out of my Abercrombie and Fitch bags. Yeah.

And it made you horny for science. I mean, I wasn't going to say it. Oh, God. There are so many things I want to say. One of the things they talked about in the documentary was how homoerotic all of that was. And how, like, that just went over people's heads. Yeah. Yeah. All I knew was these dudes are hot.

Hot dudes. Homoerotic undertones went way past me. God. Sealed with a queef. This is a timely question. Have you or someone you know Ever laughed out loud at a funeral? What was the story?

No, uh-uh Definitely not on Sunday No Oh my Kristen Made me laugh at my grandfather's funeral You're putting that on me? No, it was, no No, I did laugh at my grandfather's funeral. You're putting that on me? No, it was – no.

No, I did laugh at my grandfather's funeral. My grandmother wanted to keep it very upbeat and so they played the weirdest rendition of hymns that I've ever heard in my life and it was very comical and Kristen was sitting next to me and so it's mostly her fault. We couldn't help it. We could not. It was – I get it. I get the sentiment of I want it to be upbeat. I don't want it to be too sad. But the thing is when it's too upbeat, it's weird.

It's weird. Speaking of weird, my grandmother's funeral. She made a point. She wanted everyone to sing this hymn. And like the pastor told us all. Yes. She specifically said she did not want just one person to sing. She wanted everyone to stand up and sing, which it's like, okay, cool. And so it's like we're all kind of like, all right, we're all going to sing.

Yeah. This woman. Thank God we were not sitting next to each other. Oh, I know. It would have been terrible. It would have been terrible. Gosh, is it terrible of me to tell this story? I don't think so.

Probably no one listened. Okay. Yeah. The woman who led us in song. I don't know if she'd ever heard this song before. I would guess she hadn't. I don't think that that was probably part of her normal job. She might have been an employee from the Dairy Queen across the street, dragged in at the last minute.

You know, we're all trying to sing this song. It was not a common hymn. It was not a hymn that I don't think very many people were familiar with. No, I'm just judging by how it sounded. No one was familiar. And so I made the mistake of smiling. I didn't fall out laugh, but boy, I wanted to. And apparently my cousin John, you know, oh God, it's such a good thing I didn't hear him say this because I would have lost it.

So, you know, we all we start off and we're all trying to sing because we've just been told grandma wanted us to sing. Yes. So we're all trying to sing with this woman. I guess John got a few lines in and he finally turned to his mom and was like, I can't be part of this. So I was sitting in front of your Uncle Tom and Aunt Denise, and I heard your Uncle Tom partway through the song lean over to your Aunt Denise. And he goes, I'm not familiar with this. No one was. No one was. I'm not familiar with that. No one was.

No one was. So in conclusion, we have laughed at not one, but two funerals. Should we wrap it up there? Yeah, maybe we should. Yeah, let's see some Supreme. Yeah, or some Supreme Court. Yeah, whichever one comes easiest, I guess. Did I say Supreme Court?

I think that's where I was headed. I stopped myself. Thank God. This is a family show. We will be continuing to read your names and favorite cookies. Yeah, to get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join the Patreon at the $7 level or higher. Just go for the $10 level. Yeah.

No nuts. Don't get into the sacreme porn. Who wants to be a part of that? It sounds messy. It does. It does sound very messy. Chelsea. The Amish snickerdoodles I had in Georgetown, D.C. Okay.

Heather Wirth. Lemon Oreos. I love lemon Oreos. Jessica. Kitchen sink cookies. Pepo. Oatmeal raisin. April Slybee.

Strawberry cheesecake cookies. That sounds good. Okay. All right. raisin. April Slybee. Strawberry cheesecake cookies. That sounds good. Okay. All right. All right. Amanda Nichols. Snickerdoodle. Kristen Dial.

The iced sugar cookie from Panera Bread. AKA the hottest number one date spot. Oh, the hottest first date spot. That's right. That is. That is. Someone takes you to Panera Bread. So hot.

You know you're getting down that night. Lindsey Tucker. Peanut butter with Reese's mixed in. Ooh. Excuse me. Rihanna. Hy-Vee homestyle brownie cookies. Catherine.

Snickerdoodle. Kate. Crispy lemon cookies. What's a crispy lemon cookie? A lemon cookie, but crispy. Thank you. Never tried one of these. Christy Bob.

Warm double chocolate chip. Melissa Dashkovitz. Lemon blueberry cheesecake cookies. Oh my God. That's cool. Kimberly Ellis. Chocolate chip. Jessica Snyder.

M&M chocolate chip. Raymond Pettit. Oatmeal raisin. Jessica Snyder. M&M chocolate chip. Raymond Pettit. Oatmeal raisin. Jules Peterson. Chocolate chip oatmeal. Jenna McNeil. Crumble classic pink sugar. Welcome to the Supreme Court!

I gotta go to Crumble. I know. Everybody's talking about Crumble. I know, we gotta get it. I've had a couple crumbles I know you have you've bragged to me I had a client bring me one yeah

yeah your life is just all crumble cookies I'm constantly eating crumble cookies sometimes you just throw them away that's right sometimes like

I can't even handle another crumble cookie I'm just gonna throw this one in the trash don't worry folks that's not true thank you for all of your support

we appreciate it from all of you so much if. Thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it from all of you so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff,

then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from reporting from the New York Times, the Washington Post, Good Morning America, and Wikipedia. I got my info from the Olathe Daily News, the Kansas City Star, the Lawrence Journal World, and the Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.