Let's Go To Court! - 214: A "Victim" & a Fire

Episode Date: May 11, 2022

Michael Dunn pulled into a gas station parking lot, peeved. The teenagers in the car next to him were playing their music too loud. Michael told his fiance, Rhonda, “I hate that thug music.” When Rhonda was in the gas station, Michael asked the boys to turn their music down. They did. But one of the boys, 17-year-old Jordan Davis was annoyed by Michael’s request. So he told his friend to turn the music back up. Michael Dunn flew into a rage.  Then Brandi tells us about Brett Seacat. Brett was a pretty big deal in Kingsman, Kansas. (Just ask him! He’d tell you!) So when his wife, Vashti, said she wanted a divorce, Brett was outraged. He threatened to take the kids from her. Then, on April 30, 2011, Brett called 911 to report that Vashti had set their house on fire and died by suicide. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary, “3 ½ minutes, ten bullets” “The Case of Michael Dunn” by JCS Criminal Psychology on YouTube  In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Burning Suspicion” episode Dateline “In The Fire” episode Accident Suicide or Murder “Former Sheriff's Deputy Covers Up Wife's Murder With Fire, Forged Suicide Note” by Sharon Lynn Pruitt, Oxygen “Questions linger after Kingman fire” by Tim Potter, The Wichita Eagle “Vashti Seacat’s friends testify at trial” by Darcy Gray, The Wichita Eagle “In appeal, Seacat claims trial unfair without look at wife’s private side” by Amy Renee Leiker, The Wichita Eagle “Kansas man convicted of wife’s killing still fighting to overturn verdict” Hays Post “Seacat v. State” casetext.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 30+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about a victim. And I'll be talking about a fire. Oh.

Come on, baby, light my fire. That was very good. Thank you, but was it in poor taste? Yeah, probably. All right, light my fire. That's very good. Thank you, but was it in poor taste? Yeah, probably. All right. Sorry about that. We're at the top. Sorry about that.

Everyone, just so you know, Brandy's in no mood. You know what the problem is? We had very different lunches. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think if you have a little too much dairy, you're in no mindset to podcast. I had a grilled cheese sandwich.

So, you know, even I was like, I'm not going to eat the fries. Gave most of my fries to poor Norman who didn't like his sandwich. Well, and I'll say you offered him some fries and then he just kind of kept going. I was happy to let him eat the fries. I was not bothered by that in any way. Okay. Yeah. No, I'm fine.

I'm great. I'm feeling cheesy. Everyone, she's in no mood. Don't let her fool you. She's down in the dumps, but don't worry. I'm going to kick my burks off. Yeah, kick them off. Kick off my burks.

Get comfy. Get cozy. Don't worry. I've got big, broad shoulders. I can carry the off. Kick it off my burks. Get comfy. Get cozy. Don't worry. I've got big, broad shoulders. I can carry this podcast. Do it. Do it. I haven't even prepared a case.

You know, you joke about that sometimes. It'd be fine. I know. It would be. And, you know, we've gotten feedback. This podcast would be better if Brandy just didn't present a case. Yeah, that's what people are always saying. They say they want me to get more political and sing more songs and make more dad jokes

and for you to be quiet. Say less. Have I summed up the feedback correctly? Okay. Good. Good. Okay, good, good. What if one time I did prepare like three paragraphs and then it was very clear from there that I was just improving?

Like that SNL sketch that you know what I'm talking about? I know exactly what you're talking about. With Kristen Wiig and Fred Donovan where they're like making up a song as they go along. Okay, it would be kind of hard. I think it'd be hard for me to notice just because I think you'd be pretty good at making something up as you went along. And you memorize a lot of and memorialize. Yes, I memorialize my cases. So it wouldn't be too weird.

It would probably take you a little while to catch on. Well, no, not me. I'm a genius. I noticed right away. But like if another less intelligent person were to walk in, it would take them a minute for sure, right? Oh, Brandy. You know what? I think we're – it's probably time to make our announcement that we're about ready for our summer break.

Right? Yes. Okay, tell them. Tell the people. You girls are coming up on summer break. It is time. So we will be off the month of June, essentially. Yeah.

I'm so excited. I am so excited as well. We need a break. Yeah. You don't have to justify it, Brandy. I'm going to justify it to myself. It's fine. I think it's really important to our process and to keeping it fresh and keeping us exciting and not burned out.

Yeah, because I've been getting a little dusty. No, I'm excited. I am. I'm really excited. This break has snuck up on me. I know. Yeah. So, yeah.

So we'll be off. We'll still do our Patreon stuff. We'll have our bonus episode out. We'll do a Zoom call just like normal, but we won't put out regular weekly episodes for the month of June. Summer break! Speaking of all that,

you're gonna want to get in the Patreon. Of course. Yeah, because you'll be missing us so badly. That's right. The tears will not stop falling. They will flow like the River Jordan. All right. Very good.

And to stop that from happening, join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. You get the whole backlog of bonus episodes. That was a weird thing to say. You get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. That's right. You get, at the $7 level, a monthly Zoom call with us. It's a great time. Ooh.

Okay, I'm sorry. You were making a face like I was saying. I was thinking about signing up myself. Also, you get our lovely autographs, a sticker. You get inducted at the end of the podcast. And then, at the $10 level, that's the Bob Moss level. You get all that, plus ad-free episodes, and you get them a day early. What more could you want?

10% off merch. Fine. You can have it. God. Twist our arms. We weren't offering that until just this minute. Hot off the press. Anyway, yeah.

So join our Patreon. You okay there? Yeah, I hit a button on my screen and everything looks different now. We're off to a great start. Great start. No debating that. Figured it out. Tech genius over here, everyone.

It's all good. You know what? I'm just going to sit back and listen to your case. As opposed to what? I don't know. I don't have to go first. Yeah, this story is really something. I can go back and listen to your case. As opposed to what? I don't know. I don't have to go first. Yeah, this story is really something.

We're going to get on a roller coaster, buckle up, and keep your pants on. Oh, both? I'm afraid so. What if I can only do one or the other? Which would be more important? Probably more safe to buckle up. More appropriate to keep my pants on. When we find your corpse, we want you to be fully clothed.

All right. Thank you to Holden Dim Ankles in the Discord for suggesting this case. Love it. Massive shout-outs to the documentary Three and a Half Minutes, Ten Bullets, Love it. Wow. You implied that you were just going to sit back, but you're bringing the really high quality jokes. You know, the comedy, it just flows from me. Oh, what? I forgot that I owe my dad an apology. Should we hit that real quick? Oh, pause everything. Yes. Can everybody please pull out their 10-pounds fun fact journals?

My dad texts me this afternoon to let me know that he was very disappointed in me because the case I did on what will be last week's episode, the Johnson County murder mystery. My dad informed me he told me about it three years ago. Brandy deceived all of us. I have no recollection of this, but dad, I sincerely apologize. Yeah. Tell it to the judge. All right. Here we go.

It was late Friday afternoon, November 23rd, 2012. And we're in the great state of Florida. Jordan Davis and his friends were having a grand old time doing what teenagers do. Drugs. No. Well, probably. No, I got to say, these guys sound a lot like the way we were as teenagers. Oh, good.

What they were preparing to do was go to the mall and try to look cool. Yeah. Okay. Sound right? Sounds familiar. Jordan was with his friends Leland Brunson, Tommy Storns, and Tevin Thompson. And they're all adorable. They're like super sweet suburban kids.

Never been in any serious kind of trouble. They just spent a ton of time just hanging out. super sweet suburban kids, never been in any serious kind of trouble. They just spent a ton of time just hanging out. Okay. One of their favorite things to do was get together and play basketball. And the guys would kind of tease. Basket, basket, basketball. Everyone, now we must pause again because our Johnson County Elementary School taught us a rap.

That's the rap. When we were in the fifth grade. It was about basketball. We fucking loved that song. Do you remember like on free days of music when we could request songs? That was always a request. Always requested. And you know what? I'm being terrible because I'm pretending like I don't remember it.

Basket, basket, basketball. Hump, slump, pump, jump. Winner take all. Wow. Yeah. I didn't remember there being so much humping in the middle. You know what's funny is we all as a class loved that song so much that we didn't even giggle at the humping. Right. We just, you know,'t even giggle at the hump. Right.

We just, you know, it was so hardcore is the thing. You don't giggle when you're rapping like that. Anyway, we went to an almost exclusively white school. That is not a surprise. You probably don't have to tell anybody that. Anyway, so the guys like to tease Jordan because he always had the best outfits, like new shoes, elite socks, which I'm not familiar. I had to look them up. What's elite socks?

Like really nice, like basketball playing socks. You know, I had no idea. I'm not a sports fan. Also, he would have like the snapback hat to match. He always looked so good. But then he'd get out on the court and start dribbling and you'd be like, what the fuck? I guess not. It's all a show.

Look, he had the passion. He had the fashion. Maybe not the skills. But you get the idea. They all had fun together, hung out a ton. So Black Friday of 2012 was no exception. I was going to ask you how close to Thanksgiving we were. Yeah, the day after.

Okay, wonderful. Well, I mean, you know, that's what Black Friday is. Okay, sorry. Didn't mean to condescend. The boys all decided that they wanted to go to the mall, but first they needed to go to Tevin's house to change because they all needed to look good in case there were any ladies at the mall. That really took me back.

Do you remember like when we would go to the mall? Like it's one thing, you know, you wore whatever you wore to school, but you're not going to wear the same thing to the mall. Yeah. You got to wear your best stuff to the mall. And walk. Yeah. And be seen.

Absolutely. We never really captured anyone's eye at the mall, but boy, did we try. We sure did. So they made sure they looked good, and then they headed out to the mall. And while they were there, they stopped and talked to Jordan's girlfriend, Aaliyah, who, by the way, is beautiful and should be a model. You want to take her back to your studio, too? Stop it. Stop it.

I realize I'm bordering on creepy as an adult woman saying that these teenagers are... Okay, Tommy also should be a model. Okay. I don't mean that in a creepy way.

You got a business card for it? No, I don't. I don't want any contact with these kids. I'm just saying. Because you've been legally forbidden. Yeah, because I'm already on the registry. I will stay safely 100 yards away. I got a long-range lens.

Stop. This is what I need to figure out. Do I just need to stop? I'm not doing anything that's... Well, I am saying stuff. I am saying like they should be models. You know what this makes me think of? I remember one time.

I was in Florida actually. I was in high school. We took a trip to Florida. And we stopped in like a thrift store kind of place or something because I wanted to find like a cheap homecoming dress or whatever. And the only people who worked at this store were like really old ladies. And there was like one dress and it was ugly, but I tried it on because it was cheap. Yeah. And the ladies at the store were just like, oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. You're a vision. You should be a model. And I remember thinking, okay, this is because these old ladies literally never see young people.

So they see one young person and they're like, you should be a model. I think I've aged into that demographic. Do you know? Yeah. Mighty Morphin Power. I've turned into those ladies. Well, because that's the only thing that makes sense, right? I've covered like a couple cases in just a few weeks where I think like all the young

people should be models. It's probably not that they should all be models. It's that I'm old and don't see young people. And so I just see their wrinkle-free skin. And I'm like, my goodness. Their skin's so tight. Anyway, I'll stop. I'll stop.

So Aaliyah was working retail, and that day she tried to convince the guys to shop a little and hang around, but, you know, eventually they had to move along. So the four boys loaded into Tommy's Red Durango, and they put the music up loud, and they decided to go to a gas station for cigarettes and some gum because they didn't want their breath to be stinking. Because that's the only way anyone would know if they'd smoked cigarettes. No, because I think only Tommy smoked. It was funny because a lawyer, I mean, you know, they ask all these questions, as lawyers will do. And one of them, I think it was Leland, they asked, why did you get the gum? And he was just kind of like, because we didn't want our breath to be stinky.

And then everyone in the courtroom laughed because it's like, well, yeah, why else do you buy gum? Why did you buy the toilet paper? So I could wipe my ass? Yeah, there you go. It's like some things don't need to be said, sir. So that's what they were up to, just four friends hanging out. But they weren't the only ones having a good time. A few miles away, a man named Michael Dunn was watching his son get married.

This was a big deal. Michael and his son hadn't always had a great relationship. But here he was at his son's wedding. Michael was 45. He was a software developer and he attended the wedding with his 45 year old fiance Rhonda Rauer who was a nurse. What? You look like you've got things to say. You're just taking it in. Very interesting. I'm taking it in. Rhonda and Michael made a kind of interesting couple. She has a voice like a sad Minnie Mouse. What does that mean? Right?

Oh. Okay. That's what we're working with. Okay. And he is kind of a dichotomy because Michael has a big build and a receding hairline and serial killer eyes, but also a very dweeby voice, almost as if he's just dropped his sandwich on the floor. Everyone knows what that sounds like. Brandy, one time I was in a summer theater production as a child.

Okay. And part of the deal was you would bring your lunch. Yeah. And, of course, I just had the sack lunch as one does. But this one girl, I remember her perfectly. Her name was Lindsay. She was one of the leads in the show. Okay.

Absolutely. And that day her mother brought her a Subway sandwich. And, I mean, you know, everyone else is there with their bagged lunches. And it's like, wow, she's got a Subway sandwich. And I mean, you know, everyone else is there with their bagged lunches and it's like, wow, she's got a Subway sandwich. You know what she did the second she took that Subway sandwich? She dropped it on the ground? It's worse than that. It's so much worse.

Okay, so she goes to grab it. But you know how those subs are like wrapped and they have like the flap thing? She grabbed it by the flap and unrolled! She unrolled the carpet onto it. Oh, no. I can still see her face. The devastation.

I remember this. Reminds me of one time we were in elementary school. It might have been before you came to our elementary school even. And this kid had to have some kind of oral surgery. He had a tooth extracted something. And this kid had to have some kind of oral surgery.

He had a tooth extracted, something. And so he got dropped back off at school after his dentist appointment and he had a milkshake because he couldn't eat food because his mouth was really sore.

So he sat down at the lunch table. He had his milkshake from Winstead's. Oh, man. Fuck the best fucking milkshake, right? Yeah, yeah. A kid sits down next to best fucking milkshake, right? Yeah, yeah.

A kid sits down next to him with his tray, knocks the milkshake over. It spilled all over the table. Tragic. He cried. I felt really bad for him. Who was it? Aww. He was a sweet boy.

He went to the nurse's office and his mom brought him a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to eat. Wait, that doesn't make any sense. It was soft enough, I guess, that he could eat it. Oh, boy, that's a rough transition. That is. Who was the culprit who knocked it over? I can't remember. Was it intentional? Did you suspect foul over? I can't remember. Hmm. Was it intentional?

Did you suspect foul play? I did not expect, suspect foul play. Or expect it. Well, a couple tragic stories there. All right. So Michael and Rhonda sat through the ceremony, went to the reception, drank some rum and Cokes. Did they appreciate the venue? I sure hope so because it was beautiful.

The wedding was held at the Winterborn Inn in Orange Park, Florida. And it's right on the St. John's River. I was going to say, is it on the water? It is on the water. So, I mean, picture. It is on the water. So, I mean, picture. View of the water and the venue is this 1800s southern style home with a big front porch and a fern every three feet like God intended.

I love ferns. I know. Told you. What? I'm going fern heavy. Yes. At the wedding. I've prepared myself. It's going to be where the red fern grows. I've prepared myself.

It's going to be where the red fern grows. Hmm. All right. What's that book about? I don't remember. I feel like I tried to read that book then gave up. It could be. Who knows?

Who knows? Does a dog die? Probably. Michael and Rhonda didn't stay too long at the reception. They ducked out after about three hours because they'd left their French bulldog, Charlie, back at the hotel. And he was just a puppy and wasn't used to being left alone for long periods of time. I also think, you know, maybe if you haven't traditionally had a great relationship with your son, maybe you'd cruise out of there a little early. Yeah, right? Yeah.

So they headed out. Michael and Rhonda lived about two hours from the venue, so they'd gotten a room at a nearby Sheridan, which was located near a Costco. Nope. Great. Which has nothing to do with anything. I just felt compelled to tell you. But on their way back to the hotel, Rhonda was like, hey, let's stop somewhere and get

a bottle of wine. Michael said, sure, and he turned into the gate gas station, which I think must be a local chain. I saw a couple of them in the area. He pulled into a parking spot next to Tommy's Dodge Durango. In that Dodge Durango were Jordan, Leyland, and Tevin. And Tommy was inside the store buying cigarettes and gum. And let it be known that Jordan and Leland and Tevin were sitting there waiting for their friend and they were playing their music loud. Do we think it's pronounced Leland?

Oh, yeah, probably. I was saying Leland. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely Leland. That's my grandpa's middle name. Well, very good. Fun fact for everyone. You know your grandpa?

Well, I guess I know my grandpa's middle name. Well, it was also my uncle's middle name. Oh. Because my uncle was a junior. Please tell us more, Brandy. You know, now that I'm saying that, though. You lost confidence in that. I have a couple of other grandpas.

I don't know their middle names. You know what I think we should do? I think in order to be really responsible, we got to stop the podcast completely. I got a whole host of grandpas. I can only name one of their middle names. You know, sometimes you say things and I'm like, how am I supposed to run with this? How do I? Yes, and I only know one of my grandfather's middle names.

I don't think you need to. I think we can just carry on. All right. Sorry. So, wait a minute. Hang on. Are you looking up your grandpa's middle name? I'm nothing like you.

Just for the record, I do think you said it, Leland, one time. You know, I often say things correctly one time and incorrectly a couple times. Who can be mad? So they were in the Dodge Durango and they were playing their music really loud. In fact, they had the music up so loud that one middle-aged white guy was in the gas station and he said to the cashier, Oh, that's my favorite song. I wish they'd turn it up. Solid dad joke!

Yes! That's exactly as the surveillance footage shows him kind of like making the joke and the cashier kind of uh-huh. Everyone loves a dad joke. But you know who wasn't laughing?

Michael Dunn? Yeah. He pulled into that spot next to three black teenage boys playing loud music, and he turned to Rhonda and he said, I hate that thug music. What? Yeah. Okay, buddy. Mm-hmm. what yeah okay buddy and ronda said yes i know she sounds like sad minnie mouse i can't it's not my fault

she gave him a kiss she grabbed a 20 bill and went into the store can you imagine if dav David said something that racist? No, I could not! David would never! No! Okay, yes, I know! I know! So, she's in the store

now. Meanwhile, Michael's just sitting in the car stewing. So mad. And finally he decided he needed to say something. Oh good, Michael's just sitting in the car stewing. So mad. And finally he decided he needed to say something. Oh, good. That's probably going to go real well. Yeah. So he rolled his.

This is going to be real nice. Super polite. Well, here we go. He rolled his window down and said, can you turn that music down? I can't hear myself think. And Tevin, who was sitting in the front passenger seat, turned the music down. He's the brandy in this situation. That is the brandy.

Absolutely. Of course, sir. An adult has told me to do something. There you go. But Jordan was sitting in the back passenger seat and he was annoyed that this man had asked them to turn their music down. So he said, fuck that. Turn the music back up. So Tevin turned the music back up.

Yeah, because it's a real battle. Do you follow the rules, or do you look like a dweeb to your friends? What's a people pleaser to do? What is a people pleaser to do? What's a people pleaser to do? What is a people pleaser to do? At this point, Tommy came out of the store with his cigarettes and he got in the car and he danced a little bit to the song. And Tevin turned the music down a little and told Tommy about how the guy in the car next to them had asked them to turn it down.

Do you know what song was playing? I think Taylor Swift, probably. Right? That's what this old man meant by thug music. Yeah, tough to read between the lines there. Anyway, I shouldn't call him old. He's 45 and I'm 36. I'm fast approaching.

Anyway, Jordan wasn't super respectful when they relayed the story about the uptight man who was so mad about their loud music. And Michael maybe overheard some of that. So from his car, he yelled, are you talking to me? And Jordan said, yeah, I'm talking to you. And Michael said, you're not going to talk to me that way. And he reached into his glove compartment and he took out a gun.

What the fuck? And he cocked it. The boys were stunned. What on earth was happening? Michael began firing at them. Pop, pop, pop. The first three shots went into the back passenger door. All three shots hit Jordan. What the fuck? He was shot in the leg, the lungs, and the heart. Oh my god. Yeah. And Michael wasn't done. He kept shooting at the boys.

And Michael wasn't done. He kept shooting at the boys. So thank God, Tommy is amazing under pressure. He was in the driver's seat and he reacted very quickly. He reversed the vehicle at full speed, which meant that when Mike fired a fourth time, he missed the vehicle. But he kept firing. The fifth, sixth, and seventh shots went in through the front passenger door. Somehow Tevin wasn't shot. I mean, the angle must have just been just right. Then Tommy did a J-turn, which is a term I've never heard in my life.

What is it? I don't know, but he did it. That's the term they used on JCS criminal psychology, and I was like, I don't know. Is it a driving maneuver? Yeah, I assumed you would did it. That's the term they used on JCS criminal psychology. And I was like, I don't know. Is it a driving maneuver? Yeah. I assumed you would know it.

I've. You've really let me down in this moment. Yeah. We know what the shape of the J is. So he's just like, he, okay, this is what he did.

He pulled out in a big J and then fucking peeled the hell out of there. Okay. There you go. Yeah. So Tommy got them moving in the opposite direction of the shooter as quickly as possible. Yeah. But Michael got out

of his vehicle. He shot three more times at the back of the Dodge Durango as it pulled away. Oh, my gosh. From start to finish, this altercation and gunfire, I mean, it had happened

so quickly. They'd been at the gas station for three and a half minutes, and Michael had fired ten shots at them. The boys were in a panic. They pulled into what looked like an adjacent parking lot and tried to help their friend,

but Jordan died very quickly. Oh, my gosh. And, I mean, if it hadn't been for Tommy's quick thinking, they would have all probably died. Yeah. The gas station didn't have outside security cameras, but people saw what happened. They were horrified. And a few of them managed to jot down Michael Dunn's license plate number. And that was a good thing because he took the fuck off. Right. Yeah. So Rhonda had been in the gas station this whole time and she'd heard the gunshots. You know, people were kind of like, oh, my gosh, there's someone shooting. At some point, she realized that her fiance had fired the shots. And eventually she came outside and Michael said, get in the car, get in the car.

And so Rhonda got in, and they fled the scene. Oh, my gosh. So as soon as the murderer was gone, Tommy drove back into the gas station parking lot, and they waited for paramedics to arrive. Jordan's parents were, of course, devastated. His dad, Ron, rushed to the hospital and hugged and kissed his son's body. Jordan's parents had divorced when he was three, but they had a good relationship. And in the aftermath of their son's murder, they just couldn't believe it. Ron talked about how as a parent, it's your job to protect your child. But what happened to his son couldn't have easily been predicted.

Jordan had been five minutes from home. Yeah. It wasn't even late at night. He'd been with his good friends. None of them were like troublemakers. Yeah. They weren't doing anything. No.

They were listening to loud music like all teenagers ever. Yes. Jordan's mother, Lucy Macbeth, was of course heartbroken. She'd taken such joy from being a mom. Before she had Jordan, she'd suffered from a few miscarriages. So having Jordan had been surprising and wonderful. She'd named him Jordan after the River Jordan in the Bible, which was so weird when you brought up the River Jordan earlier. Is that for real?

Yeah. That is weird. Yeah. When you did that, I was like, what? Right? But Jordan had always teased her that she named him after Michael Jordan. But, you know. Oh, yeah.

So the whole family was devastated. The three boys had just witnessed their friend's murder, and they'd been nearly killed themselves. So where the hell were Michael and Rhonda? Yeah. Well, after the shooting, they drove off. And here's how their conversation went, according to Rhonda. What happened? I shot at the car. What happened? I shot at the car.

What car? The one with the music. Why? Because they threatened to kill me. Did you hurt anyone? No, I just shot the car. Oh, okay, sure thing, and bullets don't go through doors or anything. They threatened to kill him.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay. Missed that part. Right. Yeah. Right.

I think a lot of people did. So for the record, Rhonda thought what he'd done was very stupid. She couldn't quite make sense of it. But she saw how upset he was, so she didn't press it. Yeah, your face is the same as my face. This is weird. Okay, great. So they drove back to the Sheraton, and Michael walked the dog, and he he ordered a pizza and he had another rum

and coke. Domino's? I don't know. You know I tried to find out where they ordered the pizza from. We're going to go with Domino's. Yeah, it seems like all the bad people in all my stories order from Domino's. Yeah. So it fits.

Mm-hmm. The next morning they woke up. Rhonda got dressed. And as she got dressed, she put on the news and she saw the news report on what happened. Someone was dead following an altercation at a gas station over loud music. Someone had shot at a vehicle and killed a person. Rhonda saw this and said, Mike, Mike, Mike. this and said, Mike, Mike, Mike. And he said, yes, I saw. And she said, we need to get home. So they drove the two hours home, didn't talk much on the drive,

just listened to the radio. And every now and then Michael turned it down and said, I love you. By this point, it had been almost 24 hours since he'd fled the scene. And investigators had talked to witnesses. They had Michael's license plate number. So they looked it up and they went to his house. They took Michael back to the station with them. And he waived his right to an attorney. Did he?

The interrogation that followed was beautiful. One of my favorites. Excellent. For this interrogation, Michael was dressed exactly like Steve Irwin. Yeah, in khaki shirt and khaki pants. That's exactly right. The button-downs, like, just pockets everywhere. Yeah. Okay.

They had him sit in a corner with two detectives on either side of him. All right? You picturing it? I'm picturing it. This is where it gets really fun. There was a white detective and a black detective. And initially, the black detective just didn't say much of anything at all. He just sat there quietly taking notes.

But sitting pretty close. The white guy asked most of the questions in the beginning. The white guy asked most of the questions in the beginning. And so it was under these conditions that Michael shared his side of the story. Are you ready? Yeah. Here we go. I rolled down my window and I thought I was polite.

I asked them nicely. I didn't demand. I said, hey, would you guys mind turning that down? And they shut it off. And I was like, thank you. Cordial. Everything's cordial. I put my window back up. I'm doing my stuff. And I don't know how many kids were in that. But the windows were down for the backseat and the windows were up for the front seat. And the guy that was in the back seat is really getting agitated. And my window's up. I can't hear everything he's saying. But, you know, there was a lot of fuck him and fuck that and fuck that bitch. And then the music comes back on.

And, you know, I'm just like live and let live. I'm, you know, done. Don't need any trouble. And I don't know what if they're singing or what, but it's like they're saying, kill him. So I put my window down again and I said, excuse me, are you talking about me? And it was like, kill that bitch. And, you know, I'm still not reacting. But then this guy, like, goes down on the ground and comes up with something.

I thought it was a shotgun. And he goes, you're dead, bitch. And he opens his door. And I'm shitting bricks. But that's when I reached in my glove box, unholstered my pistol. And I mean, I practice this. I'm at the port metal bar rifle and pistol range. Have it, you know, gun guy and all that.

No military training or anything. But I have friends who are in the military that show me the proper way. And so quicker than a flash, I had a round chambered in it. And I shot. Oh my gosh! Yeah, what do you think of all that? Wow. Yeah, he's imagined a lot of

the conversation there. Uh-huh. Okay. He told the detective that he had been scared. So had been scared. So, so scared. He'd shot at the boys, and as they drove away, he was still scared, so he kept shooting.

Then he fled the scene because he didn't know if maybe the boys had some friends who were going to come by in another car and shoot him. Mm-hmm. Sure. It had all been so terrifying for him. Yeah. Imagine it. He was in a strange town, in a strange area. He just had his life threatened.

The love of his life was in the store. He was so shaken up that afterward, they went straight back to the hotel. They stayed there all night, waiting for, quote, another load of thugs to come. Oh, fuck off. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And you know what, Brandy? Michael had paid for a fairly expensive bed and breakfast in St. Augustine for that next day, but he and Rhonda, they forfeited it.

Oh, gang. Mm-hmm. They drove home because it had all been so unsettling. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So that's his story. Right. Until

this point, the black detective had been pretty quiet and Michael really hadn't even looked at him much. But that was about to change. Michael had gone on and on about how he'd been afraid because his life was threatened.

The boy in the back of the car had a gun. But Jordan didn't have a gun. There hadn't been any guns in the car. Yeah. No weapons. The only person with a gun had been Michael Dunn. Yeah. And on top of everything, he'd fired it at the vehicle as the boys were trying to escape.

The detective told Michael that he needed to come up with the total truth. Not something he'd cooked up. The detective told him there were two issues. Issue number one, there was no weapon in the Dodge Durango. Issue number two, he'd fired another round as they drove away. So, you know, imagine. Poor Michael. He's getting a little flustered. This is uncomfortable. Okay. I'm feeling pretty bad for Michael. Yeah. Oh, yes. We all are.

Yeah. He said, in my mind, they had a weapon. And the detective goes, I can't shoot someone because in my mind they had a weapon. That's the problem. I mean, if I walk up to someone and I'm having a conversation with them and I think they have a weapon, the law doesn't allow me to shoot them because I think he has a weapon. Correct. Later, Michael said, there was a barrel. It could have been a stick.

And the detective goes, could it have been your imagination? Yeah. And Michael goes, no. No. So this detective just pulled apart every aspect of Michael's story. At one point, he said, I don't understand. If the music is up so loud that you're asking them to turn it down, how can you also understand the conversation they're having?

How did you hear them threaten your life? You fucking didn't. You're a fucking liar. Or, as we've said before, a lying liar who lies. Mm-hmm. We don't give that label out to just anybody. No. But I'm giving it to Michael Dunn right now.

The detective said, sorry. Does that start with a T now? I changed it. It's official. He said, if you thought they had a shotgun, why did you get out of your car? Yeah. That makes you so much more vulnerable in a shootout. I didn't think of that.

So he's just sweating bullets in his little crocodile Dundee uniform. But he stuck to his story. That's a very different look. That's got like a leather vest. Oh, yeah. And a hat with crocodile teeth all around it. Yeah, Steve Irwin and the Crocodile Dundee guy are different guys. Paul Hogan.

That's his name? Yeah, that's the Crocodile Dundee. That's not a good name for a Crocodile Dundee. No, his name is Crocodile Dundee. The actor who plays him is Paul Pogge. Okay, okay, okay. I thought you were saying like his name in the movie or whatever. It's a movie.

All right. Series, I believe. Based on a book, I believe. I don't think so. I believe there's multiple Crocodile Dundees. Crocodile Dundee, though, has a big knife, I think. But I don't think they let Michael Dunn in the interrogation room with a big knife. I don't think so.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All right. Anyway. So he stuck to this story that Jordan had threatened to kill him. He had a weapon, and Jordan had started to get out of the vehicle to come kill him. He had a weapon and Jordan had started to get out of the vehicle to come kill him. But the forensic evidence and the eyewitness accounts all showed that Jordan had never opened his car door.

Plus, the detectives pointed out, that's not how people do these things. If you're in a vehicle and you have a gun, you don't get out of the vehicle to engage in a shootout with someone. You stay in it for increased protection. Brandy knows she's in these things all the time constantly never not in a rolling gun battle but rolling gun battle does that mean like you're doing the thing in the movies where you got a gun in both hands and you're like i think it just means that the cars are driving. Well, that's a lot less exciting than what I was picturing. Michael maintained, wait, I just said that part

and I won't say it again. He said, is he going to bite my ear off or shoot me with a shotgun? I wasn't too concerned about how he intended to do it. Bite my ear off? Yeah, the old bite my ear off to death. Is Mike Tyson here now? God, I hope not.

Toward the end of the interrogation, the detectives told Michael that he was under arrest. And Michael was shocked. He was? You ready for a quote? He killed a kid. Yeah, he killed a kid. And he's shocked. He said, I really didn't know I was being charged with murder and attempted murder.

That sucks. Sir, what? You killed a kid and you tried to kill three others. What did you think was going to happen? Nothing. He thought nothing was going to happen to him. That's how I feel about that. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So Michael was locked up. This story made big news. Shortly after Jordan's murder, Trayvon Martin's parents reached out to Ron and Lucy. Trayvon's dad, Tracy, texted Ron and said, I just want to welcome you to a club that none of us want to be in. Oh, that gave me goosebumps. Yeah, this was shaping up to be a lot like the George Zimmerman trial.

Michael's attorneys would likely argue that their client had been defending himself and that what he'd done was justified under Florida's stand your ground laws. Yeah. Brandy's shaking her head. No. No. Michael's defense attorney. No.

I'm sorry. We have to end the story here. Brandy won't hear another word of it. His defense attorney, Corey Strola won't hear another word of it. His defense attorney, Corey Strola, who had no shortage of confidence, I mean, this guy, told the media that this case had nothing to do with race. He complained in interviews about other people bringing race into this case, which was unfair because his client had never been racist. Okay.

Yeah, dude. Using thug. Yeah. Using the word thug. Do you think if it was a car full of four white kids, you would have said, I hate that thug music? No, he absolutely would not have. You know the connotation that carries. Mm-hmm.

You know the connotation that carries. He even made a pretrial motion trying to take race out of the conversation entirely. What? Yeah, that happened. Just wait for it. You're buckling up. You got your pants on. You got your seatbelt on. My pants are pulled up to here right now.

And you hate those types of pants. That's right. But here's the thing, Brandy. Michael spent 14 months locked up, awaiting trial. And in that time period, he made a lot of phone calls. Recorded phone calls?

Uh-huh. Oh, wonderful. Wonderful. What this dumbass says. So many things. So, you know, his attorney's trying to paint him as the good guy, but I vote that we let Michael Dunn speak for himself. Yes, please. So would you like to hear a dramatic reading of Michael's calls with his fiancée?

Yeah. What's he say to Rhonda? Rhonda. I have. Yeah. What's he say to Rhonda? Rhonda. I have a theory. What? It's the first call. Just him saying, help me, Rhonda. Help me, Rhonda.

Damn it. Damn it. Yeah, if he didn't make that joke, then boy. You know who would have made that joke? The guy in the gas station. That's right. The witness. He would have wasted several minutes on that collect call saying, help me, Rhonda.

But, you know, it'd be worth it. It would be. The payoff is there. So here's what he says. You know, I was thinking about this today and I was like, I'm the victim here. I'm the fucking victim here. How are you the fucking victim? I was the one that was being preyed upon and I fought back.

Rhonda. Right. You know, and I'm like, so it's my fault because I asked them to turn their music down? Right. Like, I got attacked and I fought back because I didn't want to be a victim and now I'm in trouble. Yeah. fought back because I didn't want to be a victim, and now I'm in trouble. Yeah, I refused to be a victim, and now I'm incarcerated. I know. I somehow insulted these boys by asking them to turn the radio down, and for that, they were going to kill me.

I mean, it's absurd that they would do that, but, you know, they're violent. Well, honey, I don't think we should talk about it anymore. I mean, I don't know how else to put it. It's like they attacked me. I'm the victim. I'm the they attacked me. I'm the victim. I'm the victor. But I was the victim, too. Fuck this guy.

Mm-hmm. What the fuck? Yeah, not only is he a racist, violent asshole, he's also very stupid. Yeah. Your logic is not making any sense. No one attacked you. No one believes that anyone attacked you. Yeah.

This dude sucks. Yeah. And Rhonda is trying to help him, help him, Rhonda. Yes. By being like, oh, let's not talk about it. Hey, hey, recorded's not talk about it. Hey, recorded line.

Dumbass. Ready for another one? Oh, boy. This is a doozy. Okay. I just can't shake the notion that I'm like, you know, the raped girl that they're blaming because I was wearing skimpy clothes. Like, I'm the victim that's being blamed. I was attacked and I refused to be the victim.

And now now I'm being punished for it. You were never attacked. Brandy, he's like the raped girl that they're blaming because he was wearing skimpy clothes. Man, when I heard that the first time, I was like, where is this going? Yeah. He said, I'm not real optimistic that those boys will tell the truth. Rhonda. I just want you to come home.

Yeah. Yeah. So I was thinking about it. It's like, what am I going to do first? I'm going to make love to my woman. Then I'm going to sleep. Oh, my God. I included that because it was gross.

I included that because it was gross. Really doesn't say anything about his racism, that part there. Just felt the need to include it. I get it. We all get it. I understand. Yeah, he's not optimistic that those boys will tell the truth. Yeah, it's almost like those three boys and the eyewitnesses are all in cahoots with their own story.

They're all making up some other version that doesn't involve them attacking you because you were never fucking attacked. No, he's like the raped girl that they're blaming. That's what he is. He's the victim here. And the victor. Yeah. Good God.

You know he was proud of that line. Oh, absolutely. Ready for another? Oh, yeah. When the police said that these guys didn't have a record, I was like, you know, I wonder if they're just flying under the radar. Right? Because they were bad. I mean, yeah.

The YouTube videos of these guys, they're all gangster rappers. Okay. They're gangster rappers? Yeah. So I watched some of the YouTube videos. They are teenage boys driving around singing along to songs. Yeah.

That's just hardcore gangster rappers. Mm-hmm. Or. Or. What? Just standard teenage behavior. Yep. Normal teenage behavior.

Yeah. It was funny because, you know, at this point, you know, there was this push to make these boys seem like they'd been bad or – like they were something that they weren't. And Tevin had this funny quote that I didn't even write down, but it was something like, look, we are suburban kids. The struggles we have are like, oh, I want to go somewhere. I don't have money. Oh, Facebook and Instagram are dry. There's not any women to talk to. That's our struggle. That's it. That's all we got. Yeah. He was so, he was funny. He was just like, you know, there are people who struggle out there. It wasn't us, you know? Yeah. Okay, last one.

They're like freaking out because a white guy dared to ask him to turn their, I mean, you know, come on. If you ask me to turn down my music, I'm going to kill you. And if you tell me to mind my own business, I mean, Jesus Christ. I mean, you know, no wonder people are afraid to tell them to pick up their pants. You just showed your whole ass, dude. I don't know, honey. I'm not racist.

They're racist. What is with this subculture that feels entitled to exert their will? The only thing I can think of is the culture. I mean, there's MTV culture, the gangster rap, and where are their dads? Yeah. I don't know what's good gonna come out of this, but if any good can come out of it, but I'm thinking that somewhere, somehow, I need to make a public statement about the subculture, and we need to recognize,

well, why don't we discuss that at another time? All right. Okay, so many things. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That's racist crap. Yeah. Also, where are their dads?

Yeah. Jordan's dad was at the hospital holding his son. Yeah. Yeah, quite the assumption you have made about these four kids. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, even if... Okay, so let's say Jordan's dad hadn't been in the picture.

Who fucking cares? Do you get to kill someone? No! Also, I love... Let's see. This subculture that feels entitled to exert their will. Who exerted their will in this story? Yeah, you're the one that exerted your will, sir.

Who behaved like a thug? Really? This is infuriating. You got into a fight with some kids. Yeah, over music. And you shot at them and killed one of them. But you're the victim. Yeah.

And they're thugs. Yeah. Get the fuck out of here. This trial was a doozy. In his opening statement, the prosecutor told the jury that they'd heard from the three boys, that they'd hear from the three. Hold on. That they'd hear from the – hold on. In his opening statement, the prosecutor told the jury that they'd – oh, my God.

It's a good thing you took that drink of water. Made all the difference, didn't it? You know what? This time I'm not going to take a drink of water. We're just going to power through. Oh, shit. It's running off. The prosecutor told the jury that they would hear from the three boys.

And it comes around. That they'd hear from the three boys who survived that night. And they'd tell them that, yeah, Jordan had been mad that night. He'd cursed that night. Quote, but he never threatened the defendant. He disrespected the defendant. Yep. Great. In his opening statement, the defense argued that Jordan had threatened Michael Dunn. He'd threatened him with a shotgun barrel sticking out of the window. What did he do with it? Where did it go? Good question.

No one else saw it. Yeah, you know. It might have been a lead pipe. Whatever it was, it was a deadly weapon. By the way, was that your stomach? That was my stomach. What is happening to you? I don't know. I didn't feel anything.

I feel like I'm in a haunted house. It was like a creaking door. Tell you what, that grilled cheese. That grilled cheese looked so fucking good. It was delicious. Yeah. Yeah. Now you're going to hear about it.

I guess so! He said that Michael Dunn had every right to not quote, be a victim. To be judged by twelve rather than carried by six. Oh, fuck off! Yeah.

Go to hell. Go to hell. He was not in any danger. No. He wasn't going to die that night. No. What, were they going to throw sticks of gum at him? The only people who were in danger were the four boys in the Durango. Yeah.

Well, and probably anybody else in that parking lot since you're just shooting a fucking car as it's driving away. Yeah. Reckless endangerment for everybody else, too! Uh-oh. Uh-oh, everyone. Just getting fired up. Fired up.

Shit. The prosecution played the interrogation video for the jury. They had all three boys come and testify. They had witnesses testify about what they'd seen. Again, soft spot for Tevin, because I think he reminded me a lot of you. At one point, the prosecutor was having him walk through what was said, and he was omitting the curse words. He was like, you know, you're, you know, it's okay in this setting. You can stay. It was cute.

A doctor took the stand to testify that given the angle of the bullets, Jordan's door couldn't have been open when he was shot. And, you know, that was all pretty straightforward. The defense's case was more interesting in that it was infuriating. The defense, of course, argued that Michael had acted in self-defense and that what he'd done was protected by Florida's stand-your-ground law. That just needs to fucking go. They claimed that the boys did have a weapon and they'd gotten rid of it and the police had never looked for it. OK.

So the whole idea was that in that time when they fled the murderer. Because someone was shooting at them. Right. So they went to like this. I mean, I saw kind of a bird's eye view of it and it looked like it was a connected parking lot. So they just tried – what? What? OK.

The defense really wants you to believe that they threatened Michael with a gun and then when Michael shot at them, they did not return fire? Yeah. I love that you're saying that that's exactly what i'm thinking too so they just sat there with the gun in their hands they're like oh wish we could have used this no no absolutely not and then they hit it perfectly oh my gosh Yeah, so they had gone to this, like, nearby area. And when he left, they came back. And so the defense is trying to say that in that time, when they were realizing their friend was actively dying, that they had, like, stashed the weapon under another car or put it out of view of police.

OK. OK. The defense questioned one of the detectives about whether he'd looked for a gun or any kind of weapon in the plaza area of the parking lot where the boys had waited, you know, after the shooting. And he said, no, I did not. The defense had a police technician on the stand and asked him, technician Kipple, tell me what weapons were in the car before you got to the scene. The guy goes, I'm not. You're asking me to tell you what was in the vehicle before I was even there? Yeah, that's a ridiculous question. And the defense, I shit you not, smugly goes, it's impossible, isn't it?

And the guy goes, yeah, I wasn't there yet, sir. You got me there! Brilliant question! Oh my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Brandy, what was I doing before you arrived here today? I don't want to talk about it. You have no way of knowing, do you?

I am so smart. The defense went on about how since investigators only searched the car, they had no idea whether the boys might have thrown the weapon in a bush, done all kinds of things with it. Then Michael took the stand in his own defense. And he added some spice to his story, which I really appreciated. Add a little spice. Oh, my God, that's so creepy. It's a TikTok sound. When he got on the stand, he told them that, yeah, Jordan and his friends had said rude things to him.

You know, we've already heard that. Yeah. You know what he added this time? What's he got now? They called him a cracker. No one says cracker. Sir, they didn't. They didn't. Can you imagine this stupid 45-year-old man?

He's like, well, I got to spice this up. You know what I'm going to say? You know what thugs are always saying? They're always calling us crackers. I'm not the racist. They're the racist. That's the problem. I said racist.

I think Michael's the racist. He claimed he never said that he hated thug music. So Rhonda had testified at this point. She'd said that he said, I hate that thug music. So he's contradicting his own fiance's testimony. I mean, I don't think they're going to stay together. I mean, I don't think they're going to stay together. If he had criticized the music, Brandi, you know what he would have characterized it as?

Rap crap. Not thug music. Not thug music. I hate that. Rap crap. Yeah, not anything kind of racially loaded or anything. No, no. Not at all. Like that might be like an alternative that his lawyer maybe worked into the conversation.

Yeah. He said that Jordan screamed, I should fucking kill that motherfucker. He claimed that Jordan aimed a shotgun at him and said, this shit's going down now. So his defense attorney was having him retell this whole stupid story. I know. I know. I'm with you. I fucking hate it.

And he got to this point and the defense attorney said, what's going through you? Should we be concerned about what's happening outside? Yeah, everyone, can you hear that? A lot of sirens. A lot of sirens. I think that was a helicopter. Yeah, well, you know, Brandy, you're in KC Moe, and this

is where all the dangerous things happen, as your dad has pointed out to you many times. You're lucky to be alive right now. Michael said, oh, I'm sorry. Let me go back to what the defense attorney said. He said, what's going through your mind when he said this shit's going down now? Nothing because he didn't fucking say that. Or alternatively, Michael said, this was a clear and present danger.

And I said, you're not going to kill me, you son of a bitch. So, okay. Clear and present danger. That's lawyer speak. He did not come up with that on his own. I don't buy that for a second. Then, Michael made his very best effort to seem sympathetic.

Did he? Because this whole time he's been the victim. I'm the victim. Right. Okay, what's he have to say now? When he talked about his fiance and he talked about his dog he tried so hard to

cry. He tried so hard. I didn't see a single tear on this guy. He also claimed that that night back at the hotel, he read on his phone that someone had died from the shooting that night, Brandy. And, oh, it made him sick to his stomach. He went into that bathroom and he vomited. And he was in there all night just being sick and sad. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the next morning, Rhonda saw something on the news about the shooting and she said, take me home. So that's what he did. Country road. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Take me home. So that's what he did. Country road. You're a racist and we're engaged. That's how that song goes, right? Yeah, I think that's what it was.

I do love that song. Yeah. So this whole fucking defense hinged on this idea that Michael had seen a shotgun in the Dodge Durango or some other weapon. Yeah, can they present any other eyewitness who saw a weapon? Well, it's a shame. No. Because everyone else is a liar. Oh, wow.

One of those situations. One of those situations. I mean, this fucking defense attorney. One of those situations. One of those situations. I mean, this fucking defense attorney. I mean, so obviously cross-examined the three boys. You're worried about what's going on outside, aren't you? What is happening?

I don't know. It's not good. So he cross-examines the three boys. So he cross-examines the three boys and, you know, like, you know, of course it's like, no, didn't didn't throw anything. Well, do you know if anyone else threw something out? Well, you know, I guess I can't know. But yeah, I mean, it's just so fucking stupid. Yeah. So on cross-examination, the prosecutor pointed out that Michael didn't start telling this story about Jordan having a weapon until nearly 24 hours after the murder.

I love this part. Because in her interview with the police, Rhonda didn't mention anything that night or the next day about Michael telling her that the boys in the car had a weapon. He just said that they'd threatened his life. Yeah. Here's how that cross-examination went. And keep in mind that Michael is creepy looking, so just, you know, this is weird. Okay. Prosecutor, from the time you left the gate station to the time you got back to the Sheridan, how many times did you use the word gun to describe what the boys,

ah, let me finish, what the boys in the car had? I couldn't tell you. Prosecutor, was it more than one? At least one. Prosecutor, Mr. Dunn, the truth is you never told the love of your life that those boys had a gun. You weren't there. Prosecutor, did you? Did you tell her that? Exactly. That's not a fucking answer, sir. I said you were not there. Prosecutor, I get that.

I know that. I know that. The truth is, you never told Rhonda Ruder they had a gun. That is incorrect. When he looks up and he's like, you weren't there. He says in this kind of creepy childlike voice, oh, God. So after this, the prosecution called Rhonda back to the stand as a rebuttal witness. And Rhonda was a wreck. She attempted to swear in, but she put up the wrong hand and the judge had to be like, look, you got to relax, lady.

She was shaking. I mean. Yeah. She was shaking. I mean, she was struggling. But she got on the stand and she gave very damning testimony against her fiance. She said that Michael never told her that he saw a gun in the Durango. He never told her that he saw any kind of weapon in that Durango, never said any of that. Yeah. This was a pretty wild moment in court. I mean, she could have lied.

Yeah. She could have said he never said the thing about thug music. Yeah. Complicated feelings. Yeah. Jordan's friends and family were, of course, there watching the trial, and Lucy was stunned that Rhonda told the truth. On the way home that day, Lucy said, I didn't expect that she would do that.

She was the key witness that could testify against him, and she did. I don't know if she's a mother, but I was praying that if she were, that something in her consciousness, something in her heart, something somewhere would kick in and she would be convicted to tell the truth. In the state's closing statement, the prosecutor said, There's an old saying in the legal community. If the law's against you, argue the facts. If they're both against you, put someone else on trial. Isn't that exactly what the defense has done in this case? Sure fucking is.

It sure is. In their closing statement, the defense harped on the stand your ground law. The attorney went over the law with the jury, essentially saying that the law says there's no duty to retreat and that the threat doesn't have to be actual for you to act on it, which is fucking nuts. It's just that the appearance of danger has to be so real that another person under the same circumstances would have believed that the danger could be avoided only through the use of force. What?

I think there's a major thing that shows he acted beyond the scope of that. What's that? He continued to fire after they drove away. There's no duty to retreat. He didn't. He pursued, though. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

He didn't just not retreat. Yep. Okay. All right. What's this? What's the jury think? Also, what's the appearance of danger here? He didn't see a weapon.

Yeah. If he had, then that would have come out a lot earlier. But it didn't. Yeah. The defense attorney said, Michael Dunn must actually have believed that the danger was real. That's the standard. That's our law.

And whether you like the law or don't like the law, you have to use the law. Okay. He didn't think he was in any danger. He got out of the car to shoot some more. Yeah. He didn't think those boys had a weapon. The jury went into deliberation. But did that thing where they stopped to ask the judge a question.

They asked, if we determine deadly force is justified against one person, is it justified against the others? And the judge said, no, not necessarily. Yeah. So they went back into deliberation. They came out with another question. So they went back into deliberation. They came out with another question. They said they'd been unable to reach a unanimous verdict in regard to the first-degree murder of Jordan Davis.

But they could agree on everything else. So they wanted to know, will this whole thing end in a mistrial or just that one count? And the judge told them that the single count would be mistried. The rest of the verdicts would stand. So they went back into deliberation. And eventually came out to announce that they'd mistried on Jordan's murder. I don't think that's the terminology. Hung. Hung.

Okay, thank you. that's the terminology. Hung. Hung. Okay, thank you. And found Michael Dunn guilty of the attempted murders of Tommy Storns, Leland Brunson, and Tevin Thompson. The fact that the jury couldn't agree unanimously on count one was a slap in the face to Jordan's family.

It's just so ridiculous. One of the things that was said about this, it's like part of the trouble with these stand your ground laws is it's a person's word against a dead person's word. I think the wording of that law as the defense explained it is way too broad. Absolutely. You just have to believe a threat is there. Yeah. The threat does not have to be actual. Absolutely. You just have to believe a threat is there. Yeah. The threat does not have to be actual. Yep. Yeah. So it black man with something in their hands and they're going to assume that there's actual danger. And then that's justified?

No. Jordan's mom, Lucy, didn't know if she could make it through another trial. She wanted justice for her son so badly. And seven months later, she got it. In his retrial, the jury agreed that Michael Dunn was guilty of the first-degree murder of Jordan Davis. For Jordan's murder, he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And for the attempted murders of Leland, Tevin, and Tommy, he was sentenced to an additional 90 years in prison.

Michael Dunn has appealed twice, and he's been denied twice. In the aftermath of Jordan's death, his mother, Lucy, was compelled to make a difference. Her father had been a really big civil rights activist. He'd owned a black newspaper. He'd been the president of his local NAACP. And he'd worked with President Johnson on the 1964 Civil Rights Act. And she talked about her father when she testified in front of the Senate about her son's murder. front of the Senate about her son's murder. She said, you know, my father would be so proud to see me here today, but he'd be devastated once he found out why I was here. Lucy joined the

organization Moms Demand Action for Gun Sense in America. She also joined Mothers of the Movement, which is an organization for black women whose children have been killed by gun violence. which is an organization for black women whose children have been killed by gun violence. She spoke at the 2016 Democratic National Convention. And in 2018, she ran for the House of Representatives and she won. Oh, my God. I've got goosebumps. Yeah.

She ran again in 2020 and she won again. Oh, my gosh. That year would have marked Jordan's 25th birthday. And Lucy wrote a public message to him. And I'd like to end on that now. Dear Jordan, eight years ago, you were stolen from me. The last conversation we had seemed so normal. You told me how much you enjoyed Thanksgiving and that you loved being able to see your friends. I had no idea that would be the last time I heard your voice. I never got to kiss

you goodbye. I never got to give you one final hug. We never celebrated your 18th or 21st birthday because you were stolen from me at just 17 years old. Today would have been your 25th, and I still miss you every single day. I want you to know I'm proud of you. If you were still here, I'd tell you how proud I am of the person you've become, how happy I am of the kind and caring man you've grown to be. You'd have jokingly told me to knock it off if you were here, if our laws had not failed you. We never got to celebrate the big milestones in your life because you were taken from us too early. Since then, I've worked to honor you. I've taken your legacy to Congress to fight for common sense gun safety. We're fighting every day, Jordan. We're making a change together. You live on

through me, and I live on because of you. Today, you would have been 25 years old. Happy birthday, Jordan. I miss you. I love you so much. Your mom, Lucy. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's so sad. What an amazing thing she has done to honor her son. Yeah. And to make changes to keep this from happening to other people. Yeah. this from happening to other people. It's so upsetting that there are so many people like Michael Dunn.

Yeah. And it's so upsetting that we don't have basic gun control. Yeah. Common sense gun control laws. It's what the majority of people want. Mm-hmm. Yeah, what his family has done is incredible.

I just can't imagine how awful this was. And still is for them. Is, yeah. Absolutely. His dad talked about during the trial, he'd – oh, God, this sounds terrible. He would wake up and for just the first few seconds, he would be listening for Jordan downstairs. And then it kicks in. No, Jordan was killed and today I have to wake up and go to the trial for his murderer.

Mm-hmm. That's horrible. Yeah. That stand your ground law is – that's way too broad. Yeah, that should be gone. Yeah, absolutely. That is a wild law the way that that is explained. Mm-hmm. a wild law the way that that is explained.

Yeah, I hate it. Yeah. It needs to go. Yeah, I'm having trouble picturing a scenario where that would be a necessary law. Yeah. Because we've got basic self-defense laws. Yeah. Brought you down, didn't I? It was horribly depressing.

No, I just... How horrible for those teens who were just out being teens. I know. Yeah. They were just being kids. Yeah. Yeah. They were just being kids. Yeah. Yeah. And then they went through something so traumatizing. Yeah.

And then how weird would it be to be painted that way in the media? Like you're something you're not. Yeah. That would be – I can't even imagine. No. But yeah, they were gangster rappers. Obviously. Yeah.

We were pop stars, so I get it. Yes, by that logic. People often mistake me for a pop star. Yes. It's constantly happening. Oh, God. Oh, my gosh. I didn't know anything about that case.

What did you make of Rhonda? You know, I actually ended up being very impressed by Rhonda. Yeah. That she got on the stand and told the truth. Yeah. I mean, talk about unexpected. Yeah. Especially listening to those 9-1-1, or not 9-1-1.

The jail calls. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or not 911. The jail calls. Yeah. Yeah.

I also, I feel like there's no way this guy wasn't abusive, right? Yeah. I mean, I don't think you whip out a gun and shoot at four teenagers without having some anger issues. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although I've got to make a request to all terrible men. If you're going to be terrible, you can't have a dweeby voice because it's weird. It's just weird.

It's just weird. To be like, I'm the victim. Yeah. It's like, dude, you shot a kid. Yeah, you shot. you killed a kid. And you shot at three other kids. Tell me a story, Brandy. Okay, a couple of shout outs off the top.

I watched a couple programs. Oh, did you? In this case. One was an episode of Dateline. Oh, I bet you enjoyed the hell out of that. It was a Keith Morrison episode. Full disclosure, did not watch it. You are so—

Listened to it and read it. Okay, well, that's better than your usual MO. But never got eyes on KM. Oh, KM? Keith Morrison. Oh, okay. Sorry. That episode was entitled Burning Suspicion.

Oh. Mm-hmm. Also, watch an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder. Oh, God. You know, you haven't mentioned that show in a while. I haven't. I haven't. You know, it's actually how I found the case.

I was like, haven't done one of these in a minute. Everybody, she did a little dance. Everybody, she did a little dance. Kingman, Kansas is a small town about 40 miles west of Wichita. It's home to about 3,000 people and is named after Samuel A. Kingman, who served as Chief Justice of the Kansas Supreme Court from January 1867 to December 1876. Okay. Notable people from Kingman. Wait, are you just reading the Wikipedia page? No.

Include Clyde Cessna, the founder of Cessna Aircraft Corporation, and Martin Dewey, whom I'm sure I don't have to tell you, Kristen, was a famous orthodontist and a former president of both the American Dental Association and the American Association of Orthodontics. I think I have his poster in my bedroom. I figured. Martin Dewey, famously very hot. I don't look at him for his looks. It's all about the dentistry. That's right.

I have to tell you that I had the great honor of spending a weekend in Kingman, Kansas. You did? In approximately 2005. What? And I had the police call on me while I was there. Because they're not used to outsiders. My ex-husband's family was from Kingman. His grandmother lived there.

And so sometime after we began dating, we went and visited his grandmother in Kingman and stayed the weekend there. and stayed the weekend there. We went for a walk and there was a school, elementary school, middle school, high school. I don't remember. Did you tell the kids they should be models? Is that where this is going? No, it was a weekend.

So there was nobody at the school. But we walked down. We were like walking around the school and all of a sudden a police officer showed up and it was like like you guys been trying to get in this school what yeah and we're like no we're just out for a walk and just visiting his grandma she lives like three doors down and he's like well we got some calls someone's been trying to get in the school sir what the hell do we want to do in the school? You literally took our IDs, like ran us through the system.

Are you serious? Yes. Yeah. Mm-hmm. True story. True story. That is so bizarre. Yes, it was very weird.

But no, this story is not about me. It's about a fire. What were you trying to do in that school that day? Literally never got anywhere near a door. We were just walking around the outside of the school. Okay, I got you. Anyway, do you want to hear a story about a fire i do but honestly i am so intrigued i'm still thinking about this also you know me so you know how panicked i was when a police officer

showed up and was like are you breaking the rules right now never i've never broken a rule in my life i just rules right now? Never! I've never broken a rule in my life! I just... I don't know. I'm so intrigued. Yeah. You know, Ethel was looking out her blinds

inventing stories. Uh-huh. A couple of outsiders have done no good. Never seen them before. Inventing stories. Uh-huh. A couple of outsiders. Never seen them before. The population has swelled to 3,002. I don't like it. But, all right, now it's time to talk about a fire. It was just before 4 a.m. on April 30th, 2011, when Brett Seacat called 911 to report that his house was on fire.

He was fairly calm at first. He said his house was on fire. He'd managed to get his two young sons out of the house, but that his wife was still inside and he needed to get to her. He told the dispatcher that he was going to get a dishcloth and wet it down, put it over his face and run up the stairs to see if he could get to her. He's doing all of this while he's on the 911 call. And he's like, oh, my gosh, there's smoke everywhere. It's so dark. The fire's everywhere.

It's too hot. There's so much. The fire's everywhere. It's too hot. There's so much smoke. I got to get out of here. Mm-hmm. And so he wasn't able to make it back upstairs. He got out of the house and a short time later, the volunteer fire department appeared on scene and, you know, Brett's story made sense when he first talked to the authorities. He said he'd been asleep on the couch and his wife, Vashti Seacat, had been asleep upstairs. And she'd called

him on his cell phone and told him he needed to get the kids out of the house so that they wouldn't get hurt. And then he said he'd heard a loud bang. And he went upstairs. And the house was on fire. And his wife was on the bed, dead. She'd shot herself. So he shot her and then he set the house on fire. Wow, Kristen.

Well, I've heard a lot of your stories. We really jump into some conclusions here real early. I'm just like Ethel. He said he immediately, his reaction was to grab his wife and cradle her and try and get her out of the house. But then he put it all together. She'd called him. She'd said, get the kids out of the house. She'd obviously set the fire, shot herself, and now he needed to get the kids out of the house. So he just dropped her on the bed, went and got their sleeping sons, who were two and four, ran outside, put them in her car, which was parked in the driveway, and then called 911.

And that's when he had attempted to go back in the house, get Vashti and bring her out, you know, just in case there was any way he could save her. Cruz worked for a few hours to put out the fire. The house was a large historic home. It was built in 1904. It was beautiful. It's a big white farmhouse. It's really, really nice, like three stories.

Stop it. Yeah. It's really, really a beautiful house. Ferns would go nicely there. They sure would. It's a beautiful house. Ferns would go nicely there. They sure would.

And as more and more people appeared on the scene, Brett repeated the story that Vashti was upstairs in the bedroom. He hadn't been able to get to her. But that she hadn't died because of the fire. She was already dead. She died of a gunshot wound, a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Almost like right away, the volunteer fire department was like, I don't think we're really equipped to deal with this level of investigation. So they called in the Kansas Bureau of Investigation. Oh.

Yeah. They called in the KBI, the ATF, the Department of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. And we're like, please help us. We this guy is for sure a murderer. But we can't prove it. Really weird. And because they had noted that Brett was acting a little bit strange, even like that first night when they all showed up on the scene. He was really calm. He also wasn't sweaty. Despite the fact that he said he lifted his wife off the bed in their burning bedroom. Didn't have any blood or ash or soot on him anywhere.

No singeing, no burns to his body. And this fire was intense. Well, right. It had been intentionally set. They had found a five-gallon gasoline tank right next to Vashti's body in the primary bedroom. And they located pretty early on in the investigation two ignition spots. Yet somehow Brett had managed to break through all of that without suffering a single burn or even a singed leg hair. Amazing.

Yeah. They should hire him. Yeah. Or put him in prison. Maybe. Forever. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it didn't look good. Did not look good and things would continue to not look good as the investigation moved forward. They quickly learned that there was a lot of turmoil in the relationship between Brett and Vashti. Brett and Vashti had met in high school. They met at like a high school wrestling tournament. They had not gone to the same school, but they'd met like at a state tournament and then like dated and broken up and dated and broken up

and dated and broken up. And finally, they got married on a beach in Belize. Oh, I know. It sounds wonderful. And then after they had gotten married, Brett had insisted they move back to his hometown of Kingman, Kansas

and start their lives together, which meant Vashti was like three hours from her family. Pretty isolated. Yeah. Relying pretty much on Brett and his family who were well known in the Kingman community. Brett was a former sheriff's deputy. He... Oh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. His brother and his father were also former law enforcement officers. And Brett now taught at the Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center. Well, he ought to have done a better job than this. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, for real. Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, for real. Uh-huh. Or maybe he makes it look so bad that you would think a law enforcement officer would never try and pull off a murder this badly. I mean, unless he's a really dumb law enforcement officer, right?

Yeah, that's possible. So they'd moved to Kingman, Kansas. They'd settled into a life there. But according to Vashti's siblings, she hadn't loved married life like from the beginning. She felt very isolated from her family. She felt isolated from everybody. She wasn't used to living in this small of a town. Sure.

And she talked to her sister very early on about, like, whether or not she wanted to stay in this marriage. But then Vashti got pregnant with their first child. And things really seemed to change. Brett joded on his wife when she was pregnant. He was thrilled to be having a son to carry on the sea cat name, a name that was very well known in the Kingman community. OK, you keep saying that, but isn't every name well known in a 3000 person? Probably. But these are like, you know, they're in the law enforcement circle.

It's well respected. I get that they get a boner every time they think of themselves, but I don't. I mean, the Egan name is known in known in the Kingman community, I believe, because there's only like 3,000 people there and a bunch of them are Egan. Well, there you go. You know what? Here's how I know you're not well-known. When that officer saw your IDs, he wasn't like, oh. I actually – so my name was not Egan at the time.

We're not married yet. But I actually do think that's the thing that got him to be like, okay, just, you know, leave the school. Because they did. He did. He knew my ex-husband's grandma. Oh. Yeah. Well, there you go.

Yeah. Carry on, criminals. Vashti did settle into life once they had their first son. They, you know, a couple of years later had a second son. And Vashti got a job in HR with a big communications company, Cox Communications, like a cable and internet company. We know. We're familiar. Yeah.

So she ended up working in Wichita, which was like, you know, 45-minute drive or so away. And so that, you know, kind of gave her a taste of the big city life. And kind of like a little escape from her terrible home life. Great. And for a couple of years, Vashti made that life work. But she did battle with depression and she just wasn't happy. And she confided in her sister that this wasn't going to work. She was ready for a divorce.

She was ready to start over. And she told Brett that and he was not happy. He did not receive it well. He told her in no uncertain terms that if she moved forward with a divorce, he would never let her see her kids again. Even if that meant he had to take them out of the country. What? Yeah. Uh-huh.

Where's he going to go with these kids? Take them away. If she was going to divorce Brett Seacat, she was going to divorce the entire Seacat family, which included her children. Okay. You don't leave a Seacat. My God, dude. Mm-hmm. Calm down.

Yeah. And so initially they actually started going to couples therapy. And Brett told their therapist this exact thing. Oh, wow. So he, I mean, he doesn't even. He was proud of this. Oh my god. This dude's arrogant as fuck. Yeah, and the therapist is like, okay, first of all,

that's not legal. Second of all, second of all, that is not healthy for the children. Right. It's... Can you imagine being a therapist and hearing this shit? Right. Right. And Brett told her he wasn't sure that that wouldn't be healthy for the children. He's seen a lot of people, a lot of kids with divorced parents. And, you know, having just one parent might be better than having two houses. Yeah. And so this went on for a couple of months before Vashti finally told him, I'm done. I want a divorce. And that happened in the middle of April 2011. Just about two weeks before this fire hit the Seacat home.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So leading up to serving Brett with divorce papers, Vashti started having one-on-one appointments with her therapist and they worked out a safety plan for Vashti. Wow. She was going to go stay with someone else when Brett was served the papers. The papers would say that Brett had one day to move out of the house. They would never have to like cohabitate again once he was served with the papers. And this safety plan was really important.

The therapist knew it was important. And the therapist talked with Vashti about, you know, how plan was really important. The therapist knew it was important. And the therapist talked with Vashti about, you know, how she was handling this. She had, you know, had episodes of depression before. How was she handling this now? How was she feeling about this? And Vashti assured her therapist that she was feeling good. She knew this was the right choice. She knew it was a hard choice, but it was the right choice for her and it was the right choice for her children. And so she was ready to move forward with it. And her therapist asked her, OK, are you having any suicidal thoughts or tendencies?

Again, something Vashti had maybe battled with when she was younger. And Vashti said no. when she was younger. And Vashti said, no. She said since she had become a mother, that was nothing that had ever entered her mind again. Right. She could never leave her children in that way.

And someone like that would not set their house on fire with their children in it. Correct. And make a phone call saying, hey, come get the kids. They wouldn't leave that to chance. No. No. And so Brett Vashti was served with divorce papers in the middle of April, and it didn't go well.

He refused to vacate the house. Oh, cool. And so Vashti stayed elsewhere for a couple of days, and then he essentially lured her back home and said, I'll sleep on the couch. You sleep upstairs. And he said, you know what? Flat out, I'm not giving you a divorce right now. We haven't even worked on our marriage. You give me six months. We will actively work on our marriage for six months. Oh, God. And if you still want a divorce at that time, I will do an amicable divorce with you. And Vashti said, no.

No, I'm not doing that. Good for her. We're moving forward with this divorce. I will give you a couple of weeks to get out of the house because he said he had nowhere to go. His family didn't know about this. He wasn't ready to tell his family about it. And so the last weekend in April was the last weekend Brett was supposed to stay at the house. He was supposed to be out by noon on May 1st.

Yeah. Yeah. All of this is uncovered during this investigation following. This doesn't even include the weird stuff that they found at the fire. What'd they find at the fire? Okay. So Vashti was found laying on her left side in the bed with a large Ruger handgun underneath her body. She had been shot in the right side of her neck at a downward trajectory.

Nope, that's not how people do it. Yeah. And this family had multiple guns in the house. This was the largest, heaviest handgun. Right. A very weird choice if someone were going to die by suicide in this manner. And she, like I said, was shot in the neck at a downward and backward trajectory. She would have had to – do you see what I'm doing with my hand here?

No, I see it. That's not how it's done. And then the gun was found under her body. Yeah, this dude's an idiot. In addition to that, an autopsy revealed that there was no carbon monoxide in her blood, meaning she hadn't breathed after the fire was set. There was no soot in her airways. Mm-hmm. But her body was damaged so badly in the fire

that they were unable to determine whether it was a suicide or a homicide. I can determine it. Just hand it over to me. Step aside, boys. So you got all that together. You got the trajectory of the bullet. You got the gun being found under her body.

You got no soot, nothing being found in her lungs. You've got no signs on Brett Seacat that he ever was in the house while it was on fire, though he claimed to be running up and down the stairs the entire time he was on the phone with 911. In addition to that, he's claiming on this call 911. Listen to this recording, right? He's running up and down the stairs, like two flights of stairs to this bedroom. Right. I mean, he must be in great shape because he's not out of breath.

Right. Also, he is supposedly breathing in a lot of smoke. Right. Never coughs once. Uh-huh. This guy makes me sick. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Yep. So what did he say to her? No one leaves a sea bass or whatever. Sea cat. Sea cat. You don't leave a sea cat. You don't leave a sea cat. Yeah. You divorce a sea cat, you're divorcing the whole sea cat family.

Yeah, I get it. Yeah. I remember when I married your mom, it seemed weird. Yeah. That would be part of the ceremony. So authorities did believe that the evidence was stacking up against Brett here. How is someone this stupid so arrogant? I mean, that's what I want to know.

It's like, you do this for a living? He's so fucking arrogant. He's so arrogant. So arrogant. So arrogant. They also located kind of a suicide note. What do you mean kind of a suicide note? They found her diary, which was usually located like on the nightstand next to her bed, but somehow miraculously hadn't burned up in the fire. It was now in the front seat of her car.

On the last page that was written on in this journal was an entry from Vashti. Really? She wrote this? This is what it said. Brett, I can't do this. I can't fight this out. Really? She wrote this? Mm-hmm. This is what it said. Brett, I can't do this. I can't fight this out. Take care of our boys. Be sweet to Brendan. Talk to Bronson.

Hold them both. And tell them, Mommy loves them every night. I'm taking care of the house. Brendan, you are so wonderful. Mommy is so proud of you. Be a good big brother. Bronson, stay strong. And don't ever lose that smile.

I love the two of you. And will be watching over you from heaven. That is so fucked up. It's so fucked up. So they showed this initially to Vashti's family. Yeah. So investigators looked at it and initially they thought the handwriting didn't match the other handwriting in the book. And so they showed it to Vashti's family and they said, absolutely not.

That's not her handwriting. That is so messed up. It's so fucked up. And so then they took it to a handwriting expert and a handwriting expert looked at it and was like, yeah, this is a forgery. There is a tell in this handwriting. Hold on. I wrote a note about this because I forgot to include it. And OK, the handwriting expert was like, there is a tell specifically in the first three lines of this sample. There is what we call a tremor of fraud. What? The handwriting is super shaky because the person is not confident in their forgery.

Oh. So they call it a trim or a fraud. It's a tell in a fraudulent document. A trim or a fraud. A trim or a fraud. That sounds like a title of a Dateline episode. I know. It's amazing.

Yeah. Okay. And so they're like, yeah, this is a forgery. This is a forgery. Well, I mean, he really set himself up by doing that in her diary rather than on an independent piece of paper because it's like you've got to – He's putting it right next to the samples. He's putting it right next to the samples but also like you only get one shot with it. Yeah. Don't blow your...

I know. Fuck, now I can't think of that. I know you're... As soon as I said it, I was like, she's going to quote Hamilton. I was trying to not throw away my shot. Except you did.

I did. I did. Tragically. Just a regular KBI officer, they looked at it and were like, these Ds don't match. This is slanting the opposite direction of the other handwriting in the book.

And so they started looking into Brett Seacat's activities the night before the fire, the day before the fire, the 24 hours before the fire. He'd gone to work that day at the law enforcement training center. Did he? Mm-hmm. And he'd taken some stuff out of storage there. Shut up. An overhead projector. And he'd taken it into his office and he'd locked the doors to his office and he'd been

in there for a couple hours. What? You know, like the old overhead projectors we used to use in school. Like he was tracing something? Uh-huh. Like he was tracing her handwriting, trying to get good at it? Uh-huh. Oh, my God.

Yep. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Also gone to like a maintenance person at the office that day and said he had two hard drives that he needed to destroy and he needed to know what the best way to destroy those were. And so we're out. And that maintenance person had given him a torch and said you torch them, you melt them down, and then you can just throw them away. And so he destroyed two hard drives at the office that day he'd thrown away two old cell phones and he'd done the same thing with those before throwing them away

wow and so the KBI officers learn of all this stuff and so they decide it's time to bring Brett in by now a couple of weeks have gone by. And so they sit down and have a formal interrogation with Brett. And they lay out kind of all the – they ask him to walk them through. Initially, they ask him very few questions. And the man just talks and talks and talks and talks. And then he talks about their life know, their life and how, you know, things had been pretty tough. They thought, you know, that they were going to go through a custody battle. But it seems like they'd worked things out.

They weren't going to move forward with the divorce. Vashti had agreed to do work on the marriage for a while. Had she? Uh-huh. And so things were going to be fine there. But he admitted that he was willing to fight to keep his family together. And if that wasn't going to work, then he was going to keep his kids from Vashti. He told them in the interrogation that if that meant he had to take his kids out of the country, he was willing to do it.

Okay. Sir, you can't do that. Right. He's so arrogant. Yes. He is making his own rules and telling them to people like everyone's going to agree. Yep. And finally, they're like, OK, well, this is the stuff that we see here that doesn't match up.

And like, honestly, it looks really bad for you. Yeah. And Brett was like, oh, my God, you guys are kidding, right? And they're like, no, we're not. No, no, we're not kidding. No, this looks bad. This diary looks forged. The placement of her body and the weapon under her body is weird.

The fact that you managed to claim that you ran into the fire and picked your wife up, Ran into the fire and picked your wife up. Yet managed to get out of there without any burns or ash or anything on you. Like, and he only had pants on when. Oh. Yeah. So, yeah, he would have had. Yes.

So it or I mean, yes. Yeah. Wow. And so, like, this all looks really bad for you. And he said, this is ridiculous. This is – if I were going to murder my wife, I would have done it way better than this. You guys must think I'm the dumbest guy on the planet. Yes. We do think that. Yeah.

And maybe in retrospect, you wish you'd done it differently. But that's not how it happened. Yeah. The reason you were shirtless was you shot her and there was blood spatter on your shirt. And that needed to burn up in the fire. Sure did. Yep. In addition to all of this, they actually found a PowerPoint presentation on the kitchen

table about suicide investigations and fire investigations. No. And when they asked Brett about that in this interrogation, he said, oh, my gosh. It's like you guys are really stretching here. That is scrap paper that I brought home from work. That's a presentation that we use down at the law enforcement training center. And, you know, we have a big old stack of scrap paper, and I bring that home when we use that when we're jotting stuff down.

Vashti and I were sitting at the table that night working out our budget. So the scrap paper just happened to totally match what went down. Were there budget markings on it by any chance? No, they did find like a post-it note in Vashti's purse that looked like she had been working on a budget. Yeah. At some point. But that's not what we're talking about here. No.

Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Is this guy humbled at all? No. It's got to be humbling. No, this guy's the most arrogant guy you've ever seen. How is that possible? How is it possible?

That's a great question. How is it possible? That's a great question. Finally, they got one more piece of evidence that they believed was like the last thing they needed to finally place Brett Seacat under arrest. A neighbor came forward and said that the night of the fire, she had been unable to sleep sleep and so she had been up watching television and she heard what she believed to be a gunshot at about 3 15 a.m they were able to narrow down that time based on the program she was watching on tv i love this yeah and the scene that she was watching because she wasn't sure of the time but they were like okay what were you watching

yeah what was happening at the time what was she watching i wasn't sure of the time, but they were like, okay, what were you watching? Yeah. What was happening at the time? What was she watching? I don't know. Damn it. I know. So she hears a gunshot at 315. Yeah. Brett didn't call 911 to report the fire until 357 AM. Hmm.

Vashti could not have set the fire and then shot herself with that timeline the police believed that Brett obviously staged this whole thing

that Vashti was asleep in bed he walked up to her he fired the shot, left the gun in the room to, you know, attempt to stage the suicide, got the kids out of the house or set the fire and then got the kids out of the house

and believed that the old farmhouse would burn much quicker than it actually did and that there would be no evidence for them to sift through by the time they extinguished it. But he'd only set two ignition spots. And so they had been located right in the bedroom and outside the bedroom door. And it just hadn't spread as quickly as he had wanted it to. And the fire department was able to get it under control before it spread through the rest of the house.

Wow. Yeah. And so in May of 2011, they arrested Brett for first degree murder and two counts of aggravated child endangerment because his children were in the house when the fire was set. And they also charged him with aggravated arson. They can't do that. He's a seabring.

He's a sea cat. It's dragged on for like a couple years before it went to trial because obviously Brett's a former law enforcement officer and he, you know, really tried to drag this puppy out. Finally, when the trial began, the state's theory was good, but it was very circumstantial. have concrete evidence tying Brett to the ignition of the fire or even they didn't have a medical examiner saying for sure that Vashti had been murdered. Right. But you have to use some common sense. Absolutely.

And that's what the prosecution did. They asked the jury to use common sense, see this as one big puzzle. And when all the pieces fit together. Yeah. It makes sense. Absolutely. Vashti was going to leave him and he was willing to do whatever he had to do to to keep that from happening. Yeah.

And that meant murdering her. God. And she knew that was a possibility. She told her family. She feared that was a possibility. She told her family. She feared it was a possibility. It was a risk she had to take to get out of that marriage. Oh, that's so sad. Their marriage counselor testified on the stand about all of the things that Brett had said in their sessions about how

he would take those kids out of the country. He didn't care if the kids only had one parent. He didn't think that was worse for them. Yeah. All of that stuff. Vashti's family testified about how Vashti had confided in them that she was afraid of him that she was afraid of what he would do when she tried to leave that he she hadn't said he'd ever been physically abusive to her

but one night like a month before this he woke her up in the middle of the night and said that he'd had a dream that he'd killed her and set the house on fire oh my god what yeah

and she asked her family and she asked a close friend of hers at work do you think he would be capable of that oh my god and the friend at work was like not with the kids at home he wouldn't, not with the kids at home. He wouldn't do that with the kids at home. He's a loving father. And Vashti agreed. But her siblings were very concerned.

They were like, you've got to get out of this marriage. It's a pet peeve of mine when people are like, oh, but he's a loving father. I know. That's not a loving father. Someone who does that to the mother of their father. I know. That's not a loving father. Someone who does that to the mother of their children. That's not a loving father. Yeah. That's a terrible father. The state called a handwriting expert who talked about how there were very classic tells in that journal entry that this was not Vashti's handwriting. This was a forgery. They believed he used an overhead projector that he got at work to trace her handwriting and then try and recreate it and pin that suicide note. They said that when it was clear that the divorce was going to go through, Brett Seacat was like, that's it.

He shot her in her sleep. He set the fire. He placed a call from her cell phone to his cell phone. And then he got the kids out of the house and called the police. Brilliant. So smart. So smart. So smart. But the defense was like, oh my

goodness gracious, no, you've got this all wrong. Brett Seacat is a trained law enforcement officer. If he wanted to do this, he would have been able to do it much better than this.

He wouldn't have done all of this stuff just out in the open. All kinds of people at the office that day saw him ask for that overhead projector. They saw him take it to his office. They saw him destroy those hard drives. Yeah. He's stupid and he's arrogant arrogant as fuck he's arrogant as fuck yeah then brett ccat took the stand in his own defense. Oh, here we go. Let's hear it. And he said, you know, there were a couple of things that led up to Vashti dying by suicide that night.

I'd love to hear them. And those were his fault. Oh, wow. He was to blame for pushing her over the edge, causing her to take her own life. Yeah. Wow. Sounds like he feels really guilty. Vashti was depressed.

She'd been dealing with a lot of depression. Never mind the fact that her family testified that she was like happier than she'd ever been because she was getting – Out of this terrible marriage? She's like really started taking like better care of herself like her self-care she'd lost a bunch of weight she was doing really great she was making vacation plans with friends and family members like she had concert tickets coming up yeah super depressed yeah yeah yeah he was she was super depressed and when vashti um would bring up that she was considering a divorce she hadn't decided yet oh yeah you know it's the kind of thing you toy with and it depended which 10 minutes you asked vashti whether they were getting divorced or not oh stop a direct quote from him on the fucking stand. You stupid asshole. Yeah.

You were served with paper, sir. She's just a flighty woman. You know, you just never know what she's thinking. She's so emotional. Yeah. So he pushed her too far by saying that he would do whatever he had to do to fight for their family. And if that wasn't going to work, then he would keep the kids from her. Mm-hmm. Why is he proud of that?

Why does he keep saying that over and over and over again? Hmm. That's a good question, actually. Because he wants people to believe that's the worst possible thing he could do? I wasn't thinking that. I mean it could be. But I was thinking like even in a made-up story, he can't cast himself as just a total victim. Yeah.

That's actually good. Like he can't just be like, yeah, my wife want to divorce me. It was really sad. I didn't want that. There was nothing I could do about it. It was, you know, like he had to exert some power, even if it was fake power. Yeah. So he said that was number one he pushed her too far with saying i'm gonna keep the kids from you right the second thing this is a big one all right the night that vashti took her own life. That night, she had made it clear that she

was going to move forward with the divorce. And Brett Seacat told her, no, you're not, or I'm going to expose you. Expose you how? Well, you see, Vashti had been having an affair

with a high-level executive at Cox Communications. Okay. And he was going to release compromising pictures of the two of them if she refused to stay in their marriage. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. That's what Brett Seacat testified to on the stand. Did he then show any proof of this affair? No, he did not. Uh-huh. And had he ever mentioned this before? Also, no, he had not. And so his defense attorney asked him, you know, why he'd never mentioned this before.

And he said, I didn't think it was appropriate to run Vashti's name through the mud. Oh, he's too good of a guy is the problem. Yeah. He's just too good of a guy. Too much honor is the problem here. Yeah. The defense then put up a handwriting expert of their own who said, this doesn't look forged to me. This does look a little shaky, but that could just be someone who –

Is having emotions. Exactly. While they're writing their suicide note. OK. Absolutely. But then on cross-examination, they did have to admit that the Ds did look different and that the handwriting slanted the opposite direction that it typically did. The other samples in the book. For it to slant the opposite direction does seem –

Yep. Wait. Would that be something that he mislearned when he was tracing? Yeah. I'm sure that's exactly what it was. Oh, my god. Yeah. Yeah.

This is a fun one, Brandy. You really got me. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. This is a fun one, Brandy. You really got me. Okay.

The defense also tried to present some evidence about how Vashti had lost a bunch of weight as of late because she'd been taking HCG, which was like – What's that? It was a very popular fad diet around this time. It's the pregnancy hormone. And women would take pregnancy hormone and then have these really strict diets. And like they'd lose like 20 pounds in 10 days or something like that. Oh, my God. Yeah. The super popular fad diet at this time.

You've never heard of it? No, I've never heard of it. Yes. Wait, so, OK, you're tricking your body into thinking it's pregnant. Pregnant. Because in early pregnancy, women often lose a lot of weight, and they believe it's because of the huge hormone shift. Oh. And so there was, like, this period, like, in 2010, 2011.

Shit. Yes, where people were, like, they would buy droplets of HCG hormones. Oh, my God. Yes. On the internet. It might be HGC, now that I'm saying it out loud. I don't fucking care. Anyway, they drop them on their tongue and you had to eat a very specific diet.

Like what? You couldn't eat anything. Okay. Yeah. Nothing. And then, yeah. Unseasoned chicken. Yes.

And there were even like specific like lotions and stuff you couldn't put on your body while you had those hormones. Yeah, because then your body would react in the exact opposite way and said it would just clutch onto all of your calories and turn them into fat. It's the craziest. You've never heard of this fat diet? Never. I'm telling you, never in my life. It is the most bananas out there thing. So, yes.

So, they wanted to present. Do you know people who did this? Oh, yeah. My old boss did this. So, yes. So, they wanted to present. Do you know people who did this? Oh, yeah. My old boss did this. What? Yes. Okay. So, hold on.

Hold on. Hold on. So, I remember specifically, okay, when I was a district manager, my regional manager, like, came into town and she was doing this diet and we went to lunch. And she was like, okay. And she's like, I'm going to order. And we went to, like, a Mexican place. And she's like, I'm going to just have the grilled chicken, plain, whatever. And then she was like, there gonna order and we went to like a Mexican place and she's like I'm gonna just have the grilled chicken

plain whatever and then she was like there were chips and salsa on the table and she's like I can't I have to eat these like they're here

and she's like I will gain a pound today because I ate these two tortilla chips and you were like and I was like okay cool oh my

yeah that is wild yeah no I had never heard of that Oh, my. Yeah. That is wild. Yeah. No, I had never heard of that. So they wanted to present evidence that one of the side effects of taking these pregnancy hormones was suicidal thoughts and tendencies. Well, okay. Yes. But she wasn't experiencing any of that.

No, she was, Kristen. Didn't you hear what Brett Seacat said? Yeah. Never mind what her therapist testified to. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So that was not allowed at trial.

That evidence was not allowed. Yes. The jury deliberated for like five hours and they found Brett Seacat guilty on all counts. Yeah. On this episode of Dateline, Vashti's family talks about this a little bit and how like they expected to feel relief when that happened. And they were really surprised when they didn't. But like ultimately they decided like that doesn't change anything. It doesn't fix anything.

It doesn't bring her back. And so, well, yeah, it's good that justice is being served. Yeah. It doesn't feel good. No. It didn't give us any relief. Yeah. So then it was time for sentencing. And as I've already mentioned, Brett Seacat is the most arrogant man on the planet.

And he was fucking pissed that he had been found guilty. I bet it just shocked the shit out of him. Poor fella. And so he made a statement to the judge before he was sentenced. Oh, my God. The judge in this case is named Judge Sullivan. But that's not who Brett Seacat addressed that day. He called the judge Judge Solomon, like Solomon from the Bible. He said, this day belongs to you,

Judge Solomon. This is your day. This is the day you get to take your place in front of the cameras and pass sentence on a man you worked so hard to convict. a man you know was innocent, but a man you had to help convict so you could get this day your day. So go ahead and collect your 30 pieces of silver, Solomon. Go ahead and sell custody of my little boys to Vashti's family. Go ahead and pass a sentence you think will land you a spot on the Kansas Supreme Court. Go ahead and pass the sentence that guarantees your spot in hell. Just like the prosecutors and those 12 jurors, you are all going to hell for what you've done. In this case, your corrupt decisions will bring an appeal.

The evidence will be presented and I will be free. And with that, I'll step aside and let you have your day. After all, you purchased it with your soul. So you've earned it. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Where to begin? Where to begin? First of all, this was a very obvious murder. Uh- like have a rocket tied to their ass and their career is going to go away. I mean, it's so ridiculous.

What I also think is really important to note here is that he's saying these 12 jurors are going to go to hell, too, for what they've done. So Brett Seacat's attorney was like, hey, this is a really small town. We should probably motion to move this trial for a change of venue. You know, that would probably be a good idea. And Brett Seacat, as arrogant as he is, was like, no, no. The people of Kingman respect the Seacat name. Oh, the people of Kingman respect the sea cat name. Oh, my God. And so he insisted that they hold the trial there in Kingman.

My goodness. My goodness. And he was betrayed. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I also like the idea of the judge selling his kids to their mother's family. How much money does the judge get from this? Yeah, exactly.

So here's how the judge responded to this. He said, I heard a few things here today I didn't anticipate. You did. I didn't anticipate that you did. And I won't bother addressing them because they're so bizarre they don't deserve a response. Love it. And they merely affirmed to me that a jury of 12 Kingman County citizens made the appropriate decision in this case. You claim to be Vashti's protector. And then in the next breath on the stand, you said on the evening in question that you would destroy her.

At trial, you made every effort possible to drag her name and her memory and her reputation through the mud. Vashti was not indecisive about divorcing you. She was not depressed. She was not suicidal. The family hit it on the head. So did several witnesses at this trial about you being arrogant, about you being controlling, about you being self-centered and narcissistic. You live in some sort of bizarre alternate reality. You haven't admitted guilt. You haven't admitted responsibility. And you haven't even expressed remorse. And with that, the judge sentenced Brett Seacat to the maximum allowed under Kansas law. Brett Seacat received a life sentence plus six years and three months for the additional charges. He has to serve 30 years with his life sentence for murder.

Yeah. And the prosecution argued that they should run consecutively. Yeah. That he should get the maximum time allowed. And the defense was like, no, no, no. They should run concurrently because he doesn't he's never been convicted of anything ever in his life

yeah Brett Seacat obviously appealed his conviction to the Kansas Supreme Court and said that the trial judge made all kinds of errors by not allowing the testimony in about the pregnancy hormone

and how that could have affected her and also not allowing him to testify that Vashti had been suicidal at different points in her life. And the Kansas Supreme Court upheld his conviction. Yeah. He actually just in January of this year had a hearing before the Kansas Court of Appeals. It was a summary hearing. And so there were no actual arguments. It was just like a review of a case file. No word on how that – I couldn't find how that turned out.

He argued in that one that he had ineffective counsel. As for now, though, Brett Seekit remains in prison. Wow. He has been transported out of the state of Kansas for his own safety. Yeah, I'm sure. Because he's a former Kansas law enforcement official. And I'm sure he was a total douchebag who thought the rules didn't apply to him. Yeah.

And that's the story of a fire. Ooh. That fucking guy. We covered two arrogant assholes today. I mean, just the arrogance. I truly believe that he thought, I'm smarter than fucking everybody. Yeah. And even if, I think he was rushed to do this faster than he had intended to.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. He was down to the wire. He was going to have to get out of the house. And so it was now or never. And so, yeah, he maybe did it a little more sloppily than he would have wanted to. Yeah. That's exactly what happened.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was not as perfectly planned out as maybe he wanted. Yeah. Wow. His statement to the judge. That was wanted. Yeah. Wow. His statement to the judge. That was wild.

Yeah. Delusions of grandeur. Yes. Yeah. Poor Vashti and those poor kids. And those poor kids. Fasci's sister on the Dateline episode said that the children would wake up screaming in the night because they're so traumatized by the fire and losing their mom. They would have to just rock the kids back to sleep and they would beg for Jesus to bring their mommy back.

Oh, God. Yeah. That's, God. Yeah. That's so awful. Yeah. Ugh. Oh, boy. Why do these fuckers exist? I know.

Fun fact, just to end this. Brett Seacat's family believes that he's wrongfully convicted. Of course they do. Yeah, I'm sure. That's cool. You know what we should do now? What should we do now? Take questions from our Discord. But Brandi, how on earth did they get into this Discord?

Sorry, I had like 27 text messages. I also had, you know what, I've got to confess, I had text messages, which normally I don't. And so I was like, I'm going to need Brandi to do this. To get in our Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That gets you in here to chitty chat the day away. And then on the days that we record, we get in here and ask for questions. Oh, OK. Tiffany's wants to know if money were no object, what eccentric rich person thing would

you do or buy? What? All the accessories. I would be Sammy from TikTok. she has all the designer bags she has amazing jewelry she has so many cool shoes that'd be me you know what not so bananas on the accessories okay we're kind of similar so i i've always enjoyed like the old novels about rich women who every season they'd get a whole new wardrobe. Oh, yes.

God, that would be so fucking cool. Whole new wardrobe. You know what I would love is just a standing appointment at a spa. Oh, my gosh. Yes. It's like, what is this? The third Thursday of every month. Yes, this is my spa day.

I couldn't possibly fit you in today. I'm very busy at the spa. Why would we say it that way? We don't know. We don't know. I think that's what happens when you're suddenly rich. You just talk like that. This is an interesting one. Adjusted for Inflation wants to know, which of the following would you most hate people to call you?

Ordinary, ignorant, cowardly, or selfish? Ignorant. Yeah, I knew that would be your answer. Hmm. Oh, that is tough. It's really tough, isn't it? Yeah. Selfish is a very close second for me.

I think it's cowardly for me. Really? What do you think it would be for me? I think ignorant is definitely what you would choose. Ignorant is definitely me. Yeah, I'd say cowardly is you, yeah. I feel like you learn a lot about people with that answer. You do.

That's a great question. Oh, hell yeah, Sarah asked, what's your favorite podcast that doesn't have to do with true crime? Okay, I've talked about mine before, but I am always down to give it a shout out. I love this podcast so much. It is a trivia podcast. It's called Triviality.

It's like four dudes who run a trivia game every week. I love it. Love it. And mine, again, I've talked about this one before, but, I mean, if you're not listening to this, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah. Maintenance phase. Oh, my gosh. I to tell you. Yeah. Maintenance phase. Oh, my gosh. I love maintenance phase so much.

Maintenance phase is so good. Those are my two go-tos. Oh, yeah, yeah. Both of those come out on Tuesdays, and I listen to them. It's a good day. But, yeah. Except maintenance phase, it's every other Tuesday. Yeah.

And like a desperate, I don't know, a desperate really hot woman, which is what I am sometimes. I check every Tuesday just in case. Just in case. Maybe there's a bonus one coming out this week. Maybe they made an error and they decided to just do an extra one just for me, real special like. Oh, Caroline is okay. Says, I apologize for my previous congealed salad question. Apology not accepted.

How dare you? Golden Kate Bridge says, not a question, but I just finished my last semester of law school. Can I get a shout out? Of course you can. Congratulations. I'm going to be a public defender just north of law school. Can I get a shout out? Of course you can. Congratulations. I'm going to be a public defender just north of KC. Wow. That is amazing work you are doing.

Well, we don't know yet. Brandy, I'm sorry if this is a weird question, but I'm autistic and have anxiety and was wondering if it's normal to look at the hairdresser when they shampoo your hair or if someone should close their eyes or if staring at the ceiling is more normal. I'm going to get my first post-COVID real haircut and want to be as not weird as possible. Oh my gosh, no. This is a great question. Yes.

Okay. As a hairstylist, I feel very awkward if someone is looking at me during the shampoo session. And so, yes, I would prefer you close your eyes or look at the ceiling. Anywhere but directly in my eyeballs is great. You know what I hate is when the hairstylist gets water in your ear and then laughs at the amount of water that your ear can hold. I don't know if anyone's ever had that experience. It's unprofessional is what it is. Especially after she's spent years saying, oh no, no, your ears aren't big.

Your ears are totally normal sized. Brandy, when that water fell out of my ear, you were dying laughing. It was a surprising amount of water. Ooh, okay. All Cops Are Bastards wants to know, Brandy, what is the best texture for food? I love this question because I steered you the wrong way on your custard today. Oh, yeah, I didn't like it. Everybody, you've got to be careful making recommendations to Brandy.

This is the second time. I feel like I don't often make food recommendations. No. No. So I got this strawberry shortcake sundae thing, but the shortcake in it was like – OK, everyone, it's fucking delicious. OK, you go to Andy's. Here's what it is. It's a piece of shortcake. Yeah.

They cover it in vanilla custard. Then they top it with strawberries. With strawberries. And there's like strawberry goo. It looked delicious. Custard, good. Strawberries, good. Shortcake, bad.

No. No. Shortcake bad. No. No. I did not like the texture of the shortcake in any way. You looked at me like I betrayed you. I felt betrayed.

I expected it to be more pound cakey. It was not. You know what this is reminding me of? What? Well, no, it's reminding me. I'm having flashbacks. So when we were in high school, we went out for custard one time. How much of our lives have we spent eating custard together? Oh, get the razzle-vajazzle.

It's delicious. It is delicious. Everyone hears what it is. It's a chocolate Bundt cake. Let the people hear what this is. It's a chocolate Bundt cake covered in vanilla custard, covered in fudge, covered in raspberries. Brenna's like, no, sounds gross, sounds gross. I'm like, it's

amazing. And I remember I bought you one. And even then you hated it. And I was like, wow. So then today made a very bold move when you were looking at that on the menu and I was like, that's really good. And then you had it.

And then I had it and the custard was good. The strawberries were good. But what this is reminding me of is like a couple years ago, a couple years ago, we ordered food from this place a bunch. You always got the same thing. I kind of switched it up a little bit. But then I found out that I really liked their taco salad. And finally one day you ordered it.

And you were like, why didn't you tell me that the taco salad is so good? And I was like, bitch. I don't make any food recommendations to you. That's true. Yeah. Learn my lesson. Listen, I don't know how to tell you what food textures I like. I can just tell you which ones I don't like. What's that saying on pornography?

I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. That's kind of what you're doing with the food texture. Yes. Yes, it's kind of what you're doing with the food texture. Yes. Yes, it's me. Calm down. Asked which one of you is the better liar. Oh, shit. I don't think either of us are very good liars.

No, I don't think so either. Okay, so I really do not lie because I already have this complex where I fear being disbelieved. And so, like, I just am anti-lying. Yeah. See. Okay. So. Hmm.

I feel like if it has to be one of us, it's going to be me. But yeah, we're not big. Yeah. Considering all this shit we share on this podcast. Exactly. Exactly. Listen, we've got a lot of flaws. Dishonesty is not one this podcast. Exactly. Exactly. Listen, we've got a lot of flaws. Dishonesty is not one of them.

Exactly. Crispy Unicorn Forever says, I listened to the Swindled episode on the Schlitterbahn disaster and was wondering when Kristen is going to cover it. I will not because you know what? I am looking with my own two peepers at a woman who has called dibs on that. I called dibs on it like three years ago. Is there a statute of limitations on that? For people who don't know, well, do you want to tell a little bit about it? What were you going to say?

Well, I was just going to say the Schlitterbahn was – what was it? The biggest water slide? So the Verrückt was a – was the – yeah, the tallest water coaster is what they call it. It was a mega water slide. And a young boy was decapitated on it. Yeah, and it's local to us. It's in Kansas City, Kansas. It's actually very close to my salon.

I was working at the salon the day it happened. I remember everything. Like as it was unfolding, people were coming into the salon who had just been at the water park. I've read all of the court papers on it. I just have never covered it. You could probably tell it right now. I could tell it to you right now, I'm sure. covered it. You could probably tell it right now. I could tell it to you right now, I'm sure.

Yeah, I mean, that was a major very upsetting case where they were like, we want to build the biggest coolest water slide ever. Yeah. Does it need to be safe? Do we need input from experts? No! Not really. Uh-uh. What could go

wrong? Yeah. Everything. Yeah. Ooh. Yeah. Ooh, Brandy tries her best to understand, wants to know, if you had to go to prison, what would be your game plan for surviving? Which of your skills do you think would come in handy? For example, I think Brandy's ability to do hair would make her lots of friends. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, you'd be set. Yeah.

Hmm. Yeah, you would be set. But also I think my inability to not smile at people, that would get me into some bad situations. If I make eye contact with someone, my immediate instinct is to smile at them. I don't think that would probably – Well, that's probably better than a frown. It's probably better than a frown. It's probably not. It doesn't really serve me that well in the real world because lots of people then take that as an invitation to speak to me. Yeah. Remember our lunch last week?

Yes, I do. Yeah, I don't really have any hard skills. You would probably like help people out like in the law library, don't you think? You're a really good writer. That would be your skill. I mean – You'd help people with their cases. I would feel bad though because I feel like people would be like, oh, she went to law school.

And I'd have to be like no for one semester I don't know shit. Here's my real skill. In a social situation because I am believe it or not shy I can be quiet for a very very long time. And then when I do speak I can be funny.

And I think that would be a good skill. Yeah. What? What? Let's go to Cheddar's. These are fighting words. What?

Do you guys have Sam's Club in Kansas City? I am unimpressed by the new Costco we got in my area. Just wondering if y'all have ever been to Sam's. Yes, we have both. I have memberships to both. They are not the same. They're not interchangeable. You have to have both. I have memberships to both. They are not the same. They're not interchangeable. You have to have both.

OK, so here's the thing. You all know how I feel about Costco. Yes. I can't believe I've just heard their good name besmirched on my own pod. No, I remember one time you and David were talking about how you had a membership to both Sam's Club and Costco. And the next day, Norman and I went and got one at Sam's Club because we were just kind of jealous about that flashy lifestyle you two are living. And they do have different stuff. You know what you can do at Sam's Club that you can't do at Costco? Sniff the perfumes.

I was real nervous about where that was going. Take your pants off and walk around. Oh, my gosh. No, you know what I'm saying. You're absolutely right. You can sniff the perfume. They have testers. They have testers.

I know. Costco has lots of fancy perfumes, but you cannot smell them first. Yeah. I've never even been to a casino. So you think I'm just going to go up and spend 60 bucks on some perfume I haven't sniffed? So here's what you've got to do. You've got to take a picture of all the fragrances at Costco, and then you run over to Ulta, smell them all, and then you come back and get it at Costco. Brandy, it pains me to tell you, I live 25 minutes away from an Ulta.

That is sad. There are downsides to living in the city. Yes. Ultimate Bliss asks, what's your nerdiest passion? I believe I just told everyone on the last episode that I do Harry Potter Lego science. What's my nerdiest passion? Norman. what's my nerdiest passion Norman

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I mean you're not wrong ha ha ha ha is it nerdy just to be married to the game

yes ha ha ha ha ha ha hmm Just to be married to the gaming historian. Ooh, SealedWithAQueef wants to know, will you consider hosting a Zoom call from the sex dungeon? We could. Yeah, we could absolutely do that. You people want that? I think people want that, and then they'll be really let down.

Yeah, it's not exciting. Yeah, you know what? We should do that. We should do that. A couple people have asked, and I'm always like, it's so boring in here. It is boring, but sure. You know what people have actually asked? They've asked for a tour of this room. Okay, well, that will take 12 seconds.

That's a short-ass tour. And that's if we stop in every corner. And in this empty corner. Okay, this is such an interesting question. Lance Bass wants to know, what's a random hobby you wish you could get into? Like people who clean gravestones or people that bird watch. Okay, I just stumbled upon a woman on TikTok who cleans gravestones and then does like a history search on them and tells you a little bit about the person. Oh, that's cool.

I think that's so cool. That's really cool. I would love to do that. Research graves. I mean, yeah. That sounds amazing. You know what the funny thing is? You read that out loud and I was like, that's weird.

But I would love that. Oh, God. Yeah. Specifically this woman that I found, like she goes out, she cleans all the overgrowth around. She soaps the stone up and cleans it all down. And then she does like a voiceover telling you all about like whatever she's found about that person. Wow. Yeah. Oh about that person. Wow. Yeah.

Oh, that's so cool. It's so cool. So yeah, I'd do that. Yeah, definitely. Oh, OK. Ultimate Bliss asks, favorite conspiracy theory. So typically, I don't like conspiracy theories because I actually think they're very dangerous. So typically – I don't like conspiracy theories because I actually think they're very dangerous.

Yeah. I think they escalate very quickly and people are very easily sucked into them and then they spread misinformation. Why do you say that? What? Yeah. Why do you say that? Because it's true. Well, Biden didn't win the election. But my favorite conspiracy theory is that the mattress firm is a money laundering front.

Well, how are there so many of them? I mean, that's one of those that every time I see one, I'm like, how are they in business? How are they in business? How are they in business? How often are in business? How are they in business? How often are people buying mattresses? I don't know. I'm with you. That might be mine, too.

Also, the Jeffrey Epstein one. Yeah. Batman did not die by suicide. That's correct. Ooh. Sealed with a queef wants to know, have you ever thrown out a product because you could not stand the scent? I pitched a whole bottle of shower gel just because I couldn't take the fake roses scent. That seems like something you would do in a minute.

Absolutely. I got like a whole line of very fancy, expensive bath products, like a very fancy basket. They all smelled like gardenia and I cannot handle that smell. So I actually gifted it to someone else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. And I like – I was like, oh, I'm so excited. I'm not like – I'm going to, you know, kind of splurge.

Oh, so you bought it for yourself? Yeah. Wow. Were you at Costco where you couldn't sniff the scents? No, I ordered it online. And like the reviews were really good. And it was just, you know, make me look like I'm glowing and youthful. And it was going to be wonderful.

And it was like products for your whole fucking body. That is disappointing. It was. It was very disappointing. You didn't was like products for your whole fucking body. That is disappointing. It was. It was very disappointing. You didn't know that all those reviewers had bad taste. That's right. That is – oh, my gosh. I've got to tell you my online purchase let down.

What? You know, my jumpsuit. Yeah. Everyone – Is it a camel toe? No. Okay. Here's the thing. Everyone everyone You may be familiar with my saga I've wanted a jumpsuit

For years and every time I try one on In a store I get camel toe Like you wouldn't believe You have a long torso That's right and an even longer vagina So I've For a while I've, I've, for a while I've been like,

you know what? I guess those just aren't for me. A couple weeks ago, my sister wore one. I was like, God, just fucking love a jumpsuit. My aunt Cindy wore one a couple days ago.

I just looked so good. She looked super cute. I know she did. I know she did. So you know what I did? I went online and I was like, I am going did. I know she did. So you know what I did? I went online and I was like, I am going to find a jumpsuit and I'm going to order it in a size tall. But I didn't really know what size I would be in this particular jumpsuit. I just knew I would be tall.

So I ordered it and it came to the house. I was so excited about it. I put it on. Oh, beautiful. Brandy. I looked 32 that day. Yeah. As opposed to 36.

Great. I loved it. But it was too snug in the waist. So I was like, okay, not a big deal. I know I just have to go the next size up and get tall. You know, I did. I'll admit I took my time, returned it to the store. I was like, whatever. I'll get online.

Hopped on the interweb. Sold out. Shit. Those tall motherfuckers. All those tall motherfuckers shopping for jumpsuits. I got really, I just stuck my foot out and I got what happened I took my shoes off right yeah

I just like grazed something with my toe just now I got really nervous and it was your toe how long do I think my fucking legs are okay

it's something about this room this table because I have that happen about once in an episode especially if I have my shoes off. I will think that I have accidentally touched your foot.

It's the table leg. It is. It's the table leg. Because they're curved. They're very curvy. I just, like, reached out with my big toe and touched your toe. You ET'd my toe? Well, we can do that if you still want to do it.

I don't want to. Fine. Fine. What do you think? Should we move on to Supreme Court adoption? Let's move on. Let's move right along. On that note.

You know what, people? This week we're reading your names and your favorite cookies. And we're doing a short list because I ran out of time. Okay, wonderful. Kate Czarnecki. Snicky Doodle. Sierra Lee. Oatmeal Raisin.

Coco. Classic Chocolate Chip. Abby Clark. Chocolate Chip. Tina. Blondie. Uh-oh. Is that a cookie?

All right. All right, Tina. Let it slide. Sarah Gray. Pillsbury Holiday Sugar Cookies, uncooked. Oh, shit. Like the ones with the little designs in them, you think? I think those taste disgusting when they're cooked.

I know you do. I think they're good. You know, are there certain stories that you just need? There are certain stories with my dad where we're like, we've heard it. Stop. That's not what I meant. I'm just like, no, I think it's so funny because that is your response every time. You think they taste terrible.

I feel the need to like, I'm just saying like, I cannot turn down a cookie generally. I will turn those down. Turn those ones down. No problem. Probably not. I probably, anyway, let's keep going. Olivia Shea. Levin. Levin.

Chocolate peanut butter chip. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us,

please find us on social media. Social media. Social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen

and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics.

Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the fabulous documentary, Three and a Half Minutes, Ten Bullets and the episode The Case of Michael Dunn by JCS Criminal Psychology.

I got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, the Dateline episode Burning Suspicion, the Wichita Eagle, and the Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.