Let's Go To Court! - 242: Don't Mess With Moms!

Episode Date: February 15, 2023

Mike Williams was an avid outdoorsman. So it was no surprise when he headed out early one morning to go duck hunting on Lake Seminole. But it was definitely surprising when Mike wasn’t home by noon. So his wife Denise asked her father and a friend to check on him. They spotted Mike’s vehicle at a remote boat dock, but couldn’t find Mike or his boat anywhere. Searchers eventually discovered Mike’s boat, but couldn’t find his body. As the search continued, investigators discovered – and ignored – clues that Mike had been the victim of foul play. Then Brandi tells us the story of Jema Donahue. Jema had a protective order against her husband, Javon Donahue, but when she came home one day, she says she found him in her basement brandishing a gun. He attacked her, but Jema fought back. She shot Javon four times. Afterward, Jema called 911. Before she said anything, she hung up. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The voice in the lake” episode of Cold Case Files “Mystery in the swamp,” episode of People Magazine Investigates “Wife who plotted husband’s murder with his best friend, then married him, gets life in prison,” by Steve Helling for People.com “Threesome twist revealed during testimony in Denise Williams’ murder trial,” by Jackie Salo for the New York Post “‘Snowballed’ into murder,” by Karl Etters and Jeff Burlew for the Tallahassee Democrat “Denise Williams, wife convicted in Mike Williams murder, resentenced to 30 years,” by Karl Etters for the Tallahassee Democrat “Florida Supreme Court declines review of Denise Williams Case,” by Christopher Cann for the Tallahassee Democrat “Crusade to conviction,” by Karl Etters and Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Brian Winchester grilled as Mike Williams’ family testifies,” by Karl Etters and Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Williams murder trial: Denise’s fate will be in jury’s hands today,” by Karl Etters and Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat “Man with ties to cold case in jail on unrelated charges,” by Jennifer Portman for the Tallahassee Democrat In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “A Mother’s Love” episode I Am A Killer “Buried body found on rural farm in Warrensburg leads to wife's arrest” by Melissa Greenstein, KSHB 41 News “Two more people charged, additional charges announced against woman who allegedly killed husband” KMBC 9 News “Knob Noster woman who alleged abuse sentenced in husband’s death” by Associated Press, Fox 4 News “MARRIAGE ENDS IN MAYHEM Who is Jema Donahue and where is she now?” By Kevin Quinitchett, The Sun “Donahue receives 10-year sentence on manslaughter charge” by Sue Sterling, johnpicerno.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 40+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

If you're changing payroll providers, experience better payroll processing services with ADP Canada. Payroll time and HR for business. Visit ADP.ca. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the mystery on Lake Seminole.

And I'll be talking about a mother's love. I'm sorry, that was Lake Seamanhole. That's disgusting. Hi, how's it going? I'm very excited to be here today. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I'm feeling, I don't know if it's the iced coffees are kicking in, if the buffalo wings are kicking in. Well, I am a little gassy, so it could be.

You have been, you tooted your way on up here. Hold on. I had buffalo wings and iced coffee? Yeah, you're going to shit your pants. Welcome to the podcast, everyone. You look beautiful and sunny today in that beautiful yellow top, fresh from Costco. Hey, you didn't have to say it was from Costco. Everybody knew anyway. And it looks pretty good. I'm pretty happy. I'm reading this book where this lady was talking about, like, you know, making life easier.

And she said this. she said she has worn the same outfit every monday for three years really i love that shit not like the exact same but like black top jeans yeah i wear the same outfit every day exactly black top jeans but it's just the thing of like you know certain things on days that you know are hard, you can just automate shit. Yeah. I can't remember why I brought that up. Is this a self-help book? Obviously.

Literally half of what I read at any given time is self-help. I don't read any self-help. Am I missing out on the world? No. I did just finish Spare today and I enjoyed it very much. I literally was down to the wire. It said, this returns in one hour

and I had like 57 minutes left in the book. Wow. But you did it. I did it. What a champ. Well, I mean, it's just an audio book so I didn't book. Wow. But you did it. I did it. What a champ. Well, I mean, it's just an audiobook, so I didn't really do anything else to listen to it. Oh, well, you're, yeah, you're just full of shit. I liked it, though.

Okay. Anyhow. You ever listen to an audiobook, Kristen? No, I do listen to audiobooks. Yeah, I don't know why. I'm not even one of those people who shits on audio books. It's just that I had this image in my head of you just sweating, turning pages and sweating, you know, and listening to an audio book. I did my hair.

I put my makeup on. I got London dressed. I did London's hair. Yeah. Yeah, I was multitasking the whole time. You're sitting here trying to impress the shit out of me? Not happening. That don't impress me much.

Anyhow, we've got a podcast to do. We do. So quit wasting time. Do we have a Patreon that you'd like to tell the people about? You know what? Now that you mention it, I think I do. My goodness. Did you know that you can support this podcast, this fine program?

You can on Patreon? That's right. You know, here's the thing. We need your money because we're saving the world. That's not true at all, but we would love your support. Brandy's not saving the world. I am. And we give you things in return for the world. That's not true at all, but we would love your support. Brandy's not saving the world. I am. And we give you things in return for the support.

We give you bonus episodes. That's right. We have 42. My gosh. 42 of those bonus episodes. Almost too many to count if you're really bad at counting. And this is a question I've been seeing a lot lately. If you sign up for the Patreon, do you get access to the back bonus episodes?

Why, yes, you do. All of them. You can binge all 42 of those long, meaty episodes. You're just grunting over there. You're the one who started it out weird anyway you can also get other things as well isn't that true brandy yeah you can get access to our the discord where it's like a 90s style chat room where people are just chitty chatting the day away talking about this and that and everything in between.

Also, there are some people who aren't good with technology. My hand is raised. Who are just on Patreon and they're like, is this the Discord? I don't get it. There are some of those. Absolutely. Takes all kinds in our Patreon. Yeah.

Anyhow. Oh, do you have more? No, I have no more. I have nothing more. Also, you can get inducted into the Supreme Court. And you can get a sticker and our autographs. And if you're, you know, you want to be a baller, shot caller, you can join at the big boy Bob Moss level. And you can get ad-free episodes a day early.

Also, you know what? What? We just got a bunch of new hoodies. Hats? Oh, okay. Oh, I did gesture to my head. See, the way I get into a hoodie is I slip it on over my head. That's how I do mine, too.

A lot of people step into them. Not us. Which is so weird. Not here. Anyway, if you don't own a juvenile Bigfoot hoodie, what are you doing? So got some new ones coming in hot off the press, as they say. Yeah. Look for those on our website. It doesn't have to do with Patreon, Kristen. People know. You're talking about the Bob Moss level. They get 10% off merch. How about that? That's wonderful.

Way to tie it back in. Don't talk to me like I'm not professional. When I am the most professional one in this room. That's probably true. Sometimes. Now let's do an ad for someone else. Okay. How about it?

You're not making the do-loo-loo. Do-loo-loo. We're back from an ad. It's a totally normal transition into the rocky road of this episode. The rocky road. Are we having ice cream? Well, no. I thought about

asking about us going... Well, I did ask about us going out for ice cream before we... You mentioned it, but then it was very non-committal. Well, it was one of those things where I know when we eat ice cream right before we record... I know. Then we're kind of like sluggish. Yeah. But

here, it's more of a will-she-shit-her-pants situation. It's not a will, it's more of a will she shit her pants situation. It's not a will, it's a win. Don't make me laugh too hard. It's a small room. First of all, I called Dibby Dibs on this case by using someone's name. Yeah. Did it ring any bells?

No. No ding-a-ding-dongs? No. Do I know this case? It's a very brandy case. Oh. I have a feeling that once I start talking, you're going to be like, oh. Oh.

Because that's exactly what I feel like. I know this. I know this case. Frontwards and backwards. I used to date it in high school. It's gross. Anyway, shout outs to

the episode The Voice in the Lake of Cold Case Files. The Voice in the Lake? Yeah, I'm wondering now if I have that title wrong because that's kind of a weird... No, no.

Okay, it makes sense now. I had to think about it. It does make sense. It's a of a weird. No, no. Okay, it makes sense now. I had to think about it. It does make sense. It's a real thinker. No, but you have to know the right. Anyway, you know what? Calm down. All right.

All right. I will. Also, the episode Mystery in the Swamp comes from People Magazine Investigates. You're doing a People Investigates series here, Kristen. You know, what do you hate more? The time I just did a ton of rape cases in a row or now where I'm just doing all these People magazine Investigates cases? 100% the rape cases. Then I don't want to hear any more complaints.

Also, a lot of great reporting from the Tallahassee Democrat. All right. All right. All right. Okay, everybody, brace yourself. We got a brandy case today. Ooh. Twas December of 2000, and Denise Williams was excited. It was Friday evening, and she and her husband, Mike, were preparing to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary.

evening, and she and her husband, Mike, were preparing to celebrate their sixth wedding anniversary. They had an 18-month-old daughter, so they decided that the next day they'd do like a quick little weekend getaway. I don't even know if you can call it a weekend getaway when you're only doing one night. Overnight. Yeah, yeah. Okay. On Saturday, they would drive out to nearby Apalachicola, Florida.

Oh, sure. Sure, Apalachicola, Florida. Oh, sure. Sure, Apalachicola. Everyone's heard it. And they would spend the night there. It was going to be great. Denise and Mike had been together for a long time. They'd been high school sweethearts. In fact, they'd met, what?

Well, okay, I hate to interrupt your story. We have only like three seconds left. I already know this one. No, I don't. I don't. It has nothing to do with the case. It's actually something that I saw this week that I think we should go to. I found this campground like two hours away where you rent tiny houses.

Oh, that'd be fun. Isn't that? That sounds so fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a campground and they all have like their own little like, you know, little, what do you call it? Slot? Each tiny house?

What do you call it in a campground? A slut. No. You get your individual slut. You rent a what at a campground? A space? A lot? A lot.

I don't know. I'm not finding the word. A spot. Each one has a little tiny house on it, a little fire pit. And then, yeah, there's, I don't know, I'm not finding the word. A spot. Each one has a little tiny house on it, a little fire pit. And then, yeah, there's, I don't know, 20 of them throughout the property. That's cool. I think it sounds awesome. Let's go do it.

Okay. Okay, anyway, sorry. Back to your kidding. Will that be your Valentine's Day gift to me? You were planning to get me a Valentine's Day gift. Of course. Shit. I got you edible undies.

But you ate them already? No. I was going to say, like, why doesn't anyone ever do, like, just a bunch of fruit by the foot? Yeah, you just tie it together or weave it. Do, like, a macrame situation. Depends on how much time you've got. That's enough tangents already. Okay, ma'am.

Okay, sorry. Back to Denise and Mike. They'd been high school sweethearts, met on the first day of ninth grade at North Florida Christian School. Oh. What's wrong? I have concerns. What's wrong? Nothing.

What's wrong? Nothing. Fun fact. North Florida Christian School was actually founded by white people who didn't want their white kids to go to school with children of color. But don't worry. According to the school's Wikipedia page, the school is now open to students of all races. Is it just this year for the first time? Any hooters. Mike's parents scrimped and saved to send him there.

His dad, Jerry, was a Greyhound bus driver, and his mom, Cheryl, operated a daycare out of their home. But, you know, they managed to send their sons, Mike and Nick, to North Florida Christian School, and Mike did really well there. He was on the football team. He was class president. He was voted best personality. Oh, all right. He started dating Denise, who was a cheerleader, and of course, she was homecoming queen. And she was voted best dressed. Oh. Did we do that?

No, we did not. I didn't think so. Yeah, we did not do that. Yeah. And I would know. Because you were on both the yearbook and the newspaper, and it would have been one of those bodies that did that. Also the literary magazine. But who is keeping track of how cool I was in high school? I couldn't get all of your coolness

out at one time. Yeah, you don't want to overload the people. That's right. After high school, Denise and Mike and some of their friends went to Florida State University. Oh, FSU. That's right. Denise got a degree in accounting. And Mike double majored in political science and city planning. Oh, what was he going to do with that? Well, if you'll wait like two seconds. And that's what everyone said to him. Well, what are you going to do with that?

Feminist studies. What are you going to go be a woman? They were a cute, successful couple. They got married in 1994. Could you open that a little louder? And then it like splurged in water. I got it too full. I wanted it filled to the brim

everyone brandy's having water bottle drama sometimes you gotta invent your own drama that's right and that's why i am about to flip this table don't do it they got married in 1994 and the wedding was peak 90s. Yeah, she had a big headpiece. Oh, my God. Puffy sleeves everywhere. Yeah.

Fluffy hair everywhere. Yeah. Denise and Mike went on to do very well for themselves. At what? Mike got a job as a real estate appraiser. Oh. What? Mike got a job as a real estate appraiser. Oh. What? You okay with that?

Yeah. Is that all right? Yeah. All right. And Denise, poor thing, you know, went into accounting. Yeah. What? I'm sorry.

Some people like that, Kristen. Yeah, they do. And why do I care? Like, that's good. Nobody's forcing you to be an accountant. I would. Well, first of all, no one would hire me. They bought a beautiful home.

And in 1999, they had a little girl named Ainsley. Mike and Denise loved being parents. There's this really cute story about how one time Mike called his friend and got his voicemail so he left a message and Mike thought that he hung up but he didn't

and he started singing a little song to his little girl and so his friend ended up with this voicemail that starts off like, hey man,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and then, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee. Aw, that's really sweet. Isn't that cute? Yeah. Sadly, about a year after Ansley was born, Mike's dad, Jerry, passed away. So, you know, that was awful and definitely got Mike thinking about what his family would do without him.

He wanted them to be taken care of in the event of his death. Mike was an avid outdoorsman. In particular, he loved to hunt. And that can be a little dangerous, for sure. But he always took precautions. And so, on the evening of December 15, 2000, Mike told Denise that he was going to wake up obscenely early the next day, do some duck hunting,

before they took off for their anniversary trip to Appalachicola. He told her he was going to go to Lake Seminole and that he'd be back home by noon for their trip. And that's what he did. He woke up at three in the morning. My God. Thank you.

No, thank you. Listen, ducks would have to murder my mom for me to get up at 3 a.m. to go kill them. Honestly, how do people do this? I don't know. They think it's fun. They find it fun. My God. Well, anyway, he woke up at 3 a.m., took the 45-minute drive from their home in Tallahassee over to Lake Seminole.

And hours passed. Noon rolled around and Mike didn't come home. Denise got worried. Where was he? He was always so punctual. Plus, he knew that they needed to get going for their trip. Mike usually hunted with a friend, so Denise started, you know, calling his friends. She called up Mike's friend, Damon Jasper. She asked Damon if he was with Mike. And Damon said no. Damon could tell that Denise was, you know, starting to panic.

So he's like, don't worry, I'll be over there in a minute. By the time he got over there, Denise had called her dad. She was really starting to freak out because this just wasn't like Mike. So Denise's dad, along with Damon, drove out to Lake Seminole to see if they could try to find Mike. The funny thing was, Damon and Mike had, like, just been hunting out there, like, a week before. Okay, not the same day. No. Okay. He woke up at 1 to go hunting with Damon.

It was kind of a Mrs. Doubtfire situation. Exactly. So, you know, Damon definitely knew the area, and he knew the areas where Mike liked to hunt. But the two men arrived at the lake and it took them a while to find Mike's Bronco. It was parked in kind of a weird location. It was at this very remote boat launch. Almost like it was like tucked away where no one would see it. Yeah.

Okay. I wish you all could see Brandy's face when she's listening to a Brandy story. It's so wheels are just going. It's pretty intense. The two men looked for Mike's boat, but they couldn't find it anywhere. Oh, you duck hunt on a boat? Yeah. I don't hunt, so I didn't know that.

You've only played the video game Duck Hunt, and there's no boats in that. And you were just on the carpet. After a while, Denise's dad was like, okay, you know, this is weird. We need to call for help. So they did. And officers from the Florida Wildlife Conservation Commission arrived on the scene and began searching for Mike. FWCC was there? Yeah, you know me.

I hate how much I liked that. Uh-huh. I hate how much I liked that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. When did I seem cooler, just then or when I reminded you that I was on the yearbook, newspaper, and literary magazine stuff in high school? It is a toss-up. Yep. Yep.

So they walked along the shoreline looking for Mike. They didn't see him. They didn't even see his boat. They saw other duck hunters and asked them if they'd seen anything, but they hadn't seen Mike either. It was all really scary and really sad. Word spread pretty quickly that Mike was missing. Friends came out in droves to help with the search, but no one could find him. That night, temperatures were expected to dip below freezing.

So officials called off the search and they resumed it early the next morning. That day, even more people got involved in the search for Mike. People walked the shoreline, they got in boats, a helicopter flew overhead, hoping to spot something. But it was tough. It's a 30,000 acre lake. I almost said $30,000 lake. I bet it's more valuable than that. I bet it is. It was created in 1957. I guess they dammed up a couple rivers and flooded this big old marshy forest thing.

So, like, this lake kind of looks like what? Marshy forest thing. The technical term. This lake looks like a Biore pore strip, Brandi. Oh, just like shit splurting out of it all over the place. Exactly. Thank you. Alright, you're with me. So, you know, it's not so easy

as you, for example. Ah! That was a joke about Brandi being a slut. Eventually, the search team did find something. One of Mike's friends, Brian, was with his dad looking for Mike, and they spotted Mike's boat. It wasn't super far from where they'd found his truck, but it was tucked away in these really tall weeds, so it had been out of sight. Okay.

Like somebody put it there? I don't know. You do know. You fucking liar. I am reading this cold. I just threw words into this document. I have no idea what's coming. The search team gathered round to have a look at the boat.

And to some people, it was immediately clear what had happened. Mike had been out duck hunting, and he'd hit one of the many stumps in the lake, and he'd fallen overboard. Mike could swim, but he was wearing waders. And everyone knows that when you fall overboard with waders on, they fill up with water, become very hard to remove, and a lot of people drown that way. Is that true? Yeah. I actually thought that they had like a ceiling thing to them so that they would not fill with water. I mean, this was 2000. Maybe waiter technology has changed. I literally just read an article about this in South Carolina,

this kid who went missing, and they said if he – I don't – it's fine. It's enough information. Are you losing track of the details? I am. His wallet wasn't wet, and so they weren't sure if he actually fell in the water. I think they found his wallet, but not him. I don't know. Now I don't know all the details.

But I read something that said if his waders were put on properly, they, like, seal to the body so that you can't – they won't fill with water. I mean, that seems right. Seems like Spanx for waders, though. Yeah. Gotta be real comfortable showing body, that seems right. Seems like spanks for waiters, though. Yeah. Got to be real comfortable showing body, as they say. No. OK, so I also know nothing about this shit. But one of the things they said was as a safety precaution, most people will not put their waiters on until they get out to where they actually want to, you know, do their thing. So you don't like, I don't know, get in the boat with them on necessarily.

All right. Does that mean they get out in like their undies? Probably not. They're probably wearing pants. You put pants on under the waders. Don't condescend to me. They're all like a porky pig in it. And tell them to get out there. They're all like a porky pig in it.

Well, if they suction to your body, maybe people are looking for like a real slim fit on the legs. So they figured that that's what had happened to Mike. Based on the evidence in the boat, it looked like Mike must have fallen out very early in his trip because his gun was still in the case and all of his duck decoys were still in their bag. But other people thought that

the scene was a little weird. Staged, perhaps? Well, just hang on. Hang on. The boat had a full tank of gas. I'm really looking to blame somebody here, so. Anybody with a name. Yeah, the boat had a full tank of gas.

What's that mean? What's that mean? Well, usually in a situation where a boater hits a stump and falls overboard, the engine, you know, continues to run. So it just goes and goes and goes, and by the time you find it, it's out of gas. So that's pretty big. Yeah. The other thing that seemed just a little strange was something that Mike's friend and boss, Clay Ketchum, noticed. Clay noticed that the gun in the boat was an Upland shotgun, which, as I'm sure we all know, is— That's not what you duck hunt with.

Well, no, you can— Just kidding. I have a big little one. No, it is, I think, for that purpose. It's just very nice. It's, like, expensive. Okay. So Clay thought that was odd because he'd never seen Mike take such an expensive gun out on a duck boat.

And I just banged the whole table. You're welcome. Sorry, everyone. What's the gun for, then? Well, I don't know. Like, don't you ever have, like, a real nice pair of pants that you don't just wear anywhere? I imagine that's what it's like when you've got a really nice gun. You don't just take it out any old time.

I'm so not a gun person because then I'm like, why do you fucking buy it? Okay, do you have a really fancy pair of pants? I don't. You know what I got? I got ten pairs of Judy Bluth. But you get the point, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, all right.

It's not the type of gun. It's almost like somebody grabbed just one of his guns to make it look like he was going duck hunting, but when they messed up, they grabbed his expensive fancy gun instead of his duck hunting gun. Or it means absolutely nothing at all. Could mean that, too. The main concern wasn't that the scene was a little off. The main concern was finding Mike's remains. Yeah.

What, we're assuming he's dead? It had been a couple days. Oh, okay. All right, all right, all right. Yeah. All right. I mean, they're days. Oh, okay. All right, all right, all right. Yeah. All right. I mean, they're obviously hoping not, but... That kind of ended up being weird, too, though.

Because if Mike drowned, which was what everyone was thinking, his body at this point should have floated to the surface. Unless his waders filled up and weighed him down. You know, that's funny. No one said that. But who even knows if that happens? Because I don't know anything about waders. And I thought I did, but now you're making me question everything.

Okay. So they expected him to float up to the surface. But the other thing is, you know, people, of course, had drowned in this lake before, but they'd always found the person's body. But they couldn't find Mike. I know. I'm also thinking, though, if it's like a forest marshy thing. Use your words. Sorry, I got stuck.

You know, you said it was like a flooded forest marshy thing. That means there's trees that a potty could get stuck on. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So they're going to have to send in divers probably. Mm-hmm. They do that? They use sonar technology?

I don't know. Can you wait a second? About two weeks after Mike

disappeared, someone found a camouflage hat out at the lake. I mean, maybe.

But I mean, like, a camouflage hat out at a lake where a bunch of dudes like to hunt? Gee. Maybe his wife recognizes it and be like, oh, that's his favorite hunting hat.

So here's the thing. Like, they showed it to friends and friends were like, I mean, yeah, that looks like one of his hats. But the hat was in really good shape. Oh. You would think that if it had been in the water this whole time, it would be covered in algae, it would be slimy, but it wasn't. It looked pretty good. And plus, hadn't that area been searched like a million times? How is it possible that someone was just now noticing that hat?

was just now noticing that hat. Investigators sent the hat off for DNA testing, but they didn't find any of Mike's DNA on it. Eventually, investigators settled on a theory. Mike had been eaten by alligators. That was obviously horrifying for Denise and Mike's friends and family, but for Mike's mom, Cheryl, what? What? He's duck hunting in an area where he plans to get in the water because he has waders on.

Mm-hmm. And there's alligators in that area? Seems really reckless, huh? Yeah, and, like like probably not something he would do. Yeah, so Mike's mom, Cheryl, was like, no, no. She talked to her son about all the alligators out at Lake Seminole. She told him she was worried about him hunting with all those alligators around, and he told her that he was perfectly safe. He said that when it gets really cold, alligators don't eat. And he only went duck hunting in the winter, so he was perfectly safe from alligators. Oh my god, there's so much in this case that I don't know.

Do alligators really not eat when it's cold? Let's find out together, shall we? It's kind of fun to do one where you don't have like your weird... A vast amount of knowledge around it. I think I hate it. But I'm learning so much. Are you? I haven't really told you anything.

So, you know, he told her he was safe. And then the other thing was that Cheryl went out to the lake after Mike went missing. She looked out at it and a voice came to her, clear as day. Oh, the voice from the lake. Yeah, I forgot about that part now. Okay, making sense now. The voice said, Mike is not in Lake Seminole. You have to find him and bring him home.

Ooh, that gave me goosebumps. So Cheryl knew that her son was alive. She knew it. But no one else did. And really, people felt awful for Cheryl because she couldn't seem to accept the truth. In February, officials called off the investigation into Mike's disappearance. I should actually call it the search for Mike. Because he'd been eaten by alligators.

Case closed. What? I don't know. I don't feel great about that. Kristen, do you respect wood at all? Yeah, I respect wood. You have three beverages and only one of them is on a coaster. Ma'am, this is an insulated tumbler.

It's not going to do shit to the wood. This one's not going to do shit either. The one that can do some damage is on a coaster. So who respects wood now? and do some damage is on a coaster. So who respects wood now? I'm waiting. Oh, my apologies.

What else? You're hot. Yep. And you have tig old bitties. That's true. Oh, do you need three? Yeah, three. I love your earrings. Okay, well, all right.

They look great on your lobes. Thank you. Your lobes support them perfectly. Yeah, I got big lobes. It's true. So, the day after this search ended, Denise held a memorial service for Mike.

Cheryl, of course, attended even though she firmly believed that her son was alive. And months passed. Then, in June of 2001, six months after Mike went missing, a fisherman found a pair of waders out near where Mike had drowned. But once again, things were weird. The waders were in excellent condition. What? Mm-hmm. Everyone had said that he'd been eaten by an alligator, but these waders were fully intact.

And just like the hat, the waders weren't slimy. They weren't covered in algae. They looked really good. Friends were able to confirm that those waders did look similar to ones that Mike wore. The state had a local diver go out there where the waders were found and see if anything could be found at the bottom of the lake. The guy dove down and almost immediately found two things. He found a yellow flashlight and a jacket, and he brought them both out of the water. He turned on the flashlight, and it worked. Amazing!

After all these months, the flashlight worked. What a great flashlight. No. What a wonderful flashlight. Some companies know how to make a good product. I need to formulate a theory here. Hold on. Pause.

Okay. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Somebody is going back to the lake every so often and dumping a bit of something to make it to bolster the theory that Mike drowned in this area and was eaten by alligators. Is it Denise? I'm not sure yet. Please continue on. But if you're trying to bolster the theory that he was eaten by alligators, why leave perfectly intact waiters? Because they're not that smart. A stupid person is planting

evidence. He took a look at the jacket. It was in great condition. What? Yeah. Looked real good for something that had supposedly been at the bottom of a lake for six months. Yeah. He checked the pockets. And oh my goodness.

Mike's ID right there. Mike's hunting license was right there. In perfect condition. Yeah. What the fuck?. In perfect condition. Yeah. What the fuck? Okay. All right. Continue.

This was just proof that Mike drowned in the lake. No, it's not, because there's no way this stuff has been in the water for six months. Right. Yeah, Cheryl was like, are you kidding? Those items were planted there. Yeah. I'm with you, Cheryl. Can I call you Cher?

I'm guessing no. Okay. Sorry. Sorry, ma'am. She begged the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to open an investigation into her son's disappearance. But they refused. Her son had been eaten by alligators, Brandi? What were they supposed to do, arrest an alligator?

Yeah. They were really condescending. I'm sure they were. Mm-hmm. They told her nothing criminal. There's some crazy mom who can't move on. Mm-hmm. Nothing criminal happened here.

It was alligators. So sorry. Just about everyone besides Cheryl took the fact that Mike's waders and jacket and hunting license had been found in the lake as proof that he was, in fact, dead. No. What about the condition? Yeah. What about the condition? Yeah, that's really interesting to me, too, because the condition makes no fucking sense. No. For either of these things. Do you hear this bird losing its fucking mind out here?

Yeah, there's a bird that's losing its mind. It also doesn't know anything about alligators. It's just spouting theories right and left. No, it doesn't make sense for either theory. The alligator, what? So the alligator, like. Stripped his clothes off. Stripped his clothes off.

Yeah. Without doing any damage. Kept him nice and dry for a while, then brought him back down. No. No. Also, if he drowned, you would find him. Him. Yes.

With the clothes. Okay. What are you thinking? I don't know yet. All right. All right. On June 29, 2001, a judge signed a presumptive death certificate. Really?

What? That's really fast. Oh, uh-oh. We've hit Brandy's area of expertise. Usually, I thought it was seven years. It's five in Florida. Okay. Usually it's five.

This is six months. Yeah. What the fuck? Well, Mike's widow, Denise, had actually pushed for that. I bet she did. Uh-huh. She needed that death certificate

in order to collect on Mike's life insurance policies. How much life insurance did he have? About 1.75 million dollars. Great. Now, I will say, in situations like this. They have a kid that she has to support, absolutely. Yeah.

Yes. He's only been gone for six months. Okay. There's no proof that he died. Well, I mean, it's pretty likely, right? Yeah. But also, things don't match up, and so it's also likely that foul play was involved. So we've got someone pushing for a death certificate about four and a half years early.

That's sus, as the kids say. I sometimes forget how young and hip you are. That's right. I sometimes forget how young and hip you are That's right So, I mean, yeah, as you've already said, you know Most people have to wait several years Denise had to wait six months Pretty lucky

Another thing that was pretty lucky was that only about six months before Mike went missing He and Denise took out some big life insurance policies. That is lucky, isn't it? Mike's best friend, Brian Winchester, was in the insurance business. Not in the gun business. He is an avid hunter. And he sold them the policies. Fun fact. That was a joke about Winchester rifles in case you didn't get it. Oh, I know so little about guns that, no, I did not get that. I thought you were making a joke about where this case was going. Fun fact.

Brian sold them the policies. He was also the one who discovered Mike's boat. Oh, was he also the one who was really like consoling Denise after all of this? No, no, but he was the one who was like, oh, that hat. Yeah, that looks like Mike's. And oh, those waders. Yeah, looks like Mike's. Is it or is it not? No, it is. And suspicious. Take your fucking

suspicions and turn them on some gators. Not long after the judge signed that presumptive death certificate, Brian Winchester ran into Mike's mom, Cheryl, and they had what sounds like a pretty tense conversation. How'd it go down? Brian stopped her and said, well, I guess you're surprised that they declared Michael dead so quickly. And she said, well, no, Brian, not with the way that evidence just popped up out of the clear blue. And he said, what do you mean, Mrs. Williams? That was a gift from God. And she said, Brian, I've had gifts from God.

That was not. I think those waiters were planted. Oh, Cheryl. I think those waiters were planted. Ooh, Cheryl. I like Cheryl. Hmm. You ask a lot of people and, you know, Cheryl's just, poor Cheryl. Yeah, poor Cheryl can't move on, can't cope with the loss of her son. No, Cheryl is on to something.

Or is she a bit of a nut? No. She did hear that voice at the lake, though. All right. No, but I think she's I think she's on to something. She was certain

that her son was alive. She wrote hundreds of letters. What? I don't think her son is alive, but I think she's definitely on to something with the fact that the evidence was planted. Yeah. Yeah. She wrote hundreds of letters to the governor asking for help.

She had cards printed up with Mike's picture on them. She handed them out to people. She nailed them to trees. She made a poster with her son's picture on them. She handed them out to people. She nailed them to trees. She made a poster with her son's picture on it. She stood at busy intersections holding that sign, hoping that someone would help her find him. She took out billboards asking for information. She went to different churches every Sunday just to talk to people.

Her tireless work ensured that people didn't forget about her son. And the fact that Cheryl kept talking about her son and putting her son's name in the paper made Denise very uncomfortable. Why? Well, she wanted to move on, Brandy, and the sad fact was that Mike was dead. And she didn't want to have to answer a bunch of questions from their daughter about, you know, why is there this billboard? Right? That makes sense. That's fair. All right. She asked Cheryl to stop.

But Cheryl wouldn't. Years passed, and despite all of Cheryl's efforts, the police refused to open a criminal investigation into Mike's disappearance. In 2004, Mike's brother Nick got married, and Denise was invited to the ceremony, and so was Mike's old best friend, Brian. And at the wedding, Denise and Brian told everyone that they were dating. Oh, isn't that convenient? What do you mean?

Okay, he's the— Oh, people can't fall in love, Brandy? Okay. You're such a sourpuss. If I fucking die, don't you fucking dare marry David. I will wait several years. No! We will wait an appropriate amount of time.

No! No, there's no time that's appropriate! Okay, we'll do it right away. No! No, there's no time that's appropriate! Okay, we'll do it right away. No! Denise and Brian had actually known each other since preschool. M-cute. Did you say thank you or m-cute? M-cute.

A year earlier, Brian had divorced his wife, Kathy. And, you know, now Brian and Denise were together. Yeah. You don't sound the least bit happy for him. I'm not. Well, you know, maybe this will help. Later that year, they got engaged. You like an engagement, do you?

I mean, I do, but not when these people, I don't know, I'm guessing murdered their husband and friend to be together. Best friend. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That same year, Cheryl got a letter from an alligator specialist at Florida State University. She'd written to that expert because she wanted more information on whether her son truly could have been eaten by alligators. And they said, no, alligators don't eat when it's cold.

Right. Which I do not fucking buy. Bears don't eat when it's cold. No, no, that's not what I'm talking about. That's not what I'm talking about. Oh, my God. Okay. To jump on to your point.

Alligators, brumates or whatever, which is basically like when bears hibernate. And when it's really cold, they just don't eat. They certainly don't eat a fucking human. Anyway. No, what I was saying was, I bet you anything those alligators snack. They say they don't eat, but come on. Come on. Oh, I don't eat sugar.

Yeah, all right. Oh, I don't eat sugar. Yeah, all right. No, what I was saying was, I don't buy for a second that the Wildlife Commission didn't know that shit. Yeah, exactly. Why would it take four years? No, you're absolutely right. No, people know that shit. Yeah.

You've got all these duck hunters out there in this alligator infested swamp land i bet you anyone on that lake could have told you that yep but we're not really wanting to do the work i guess nope so this expert said what you said but also yeah it wouldn't it wouldn't have eaten certainly not a human yeah and if an alligator were to attack someone there would be a lot of evidence of that attack yeah yeah they basically like rip them apart. Right. Yeah. First, they gingerly take your clothes off. They put on a little owl green. I mean, it's just infuriating. It is.

Like this woman knows something's up. knows something's up. And the other thing that was interesting about reading some of these articles is you could tell some of the people also were like, yeah, this doesn't make fucking sense. Right. But anyway, I'll keep telling this fucking story. Okay. So this letter confirmed what Cheryl had believed for years. She took the letter to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, and maybe she also mentioned that Denise and Brian were engaged. Who knows? And law enforcement agreed to finally open a criminal investigation. Fuck yes, finally.

We're four years later now? Mm-hmm. Sure are. Great. You know what? You know what's really easy to do is investigate a four-year-old case when nothing was declared like criminal at the time so like no evidence was taken or anything boy you're just reading my script for me aren't you denise was pissed cheryl said that at one point denise came over to her house and said, if you don't stop this criminal investigation, I will burp in your face.

I didn't know what part of your body that came out of. Cheryl said that at one point, Denise came over to her house and said, if you don't stop this criminal investigation, you won't ever see your granddaughter again. Amazing. Yeah. That's fucking terrible. Cheryl was devastated by that threat. Of course she was. But she told Denise she couldn't stop the criminal.

Whoa. Oh, my God. That scared the shit out of me. I'm sorry. You know what happened, everybody? My coaster got stuck to my water bottle because I spilled it. You know what I just saw? What?

Okay. I was perusing the Ouala website. Oh, my God. By the way, we are not sponsored by Ouala. Just, you know. We should be. We should be. Because they have a drop page where they promote upcoming color drops that they have.

There was this hot pink one dropped yesterday. I didn't get it. Anyway, it sold out. Anyway, they have little silicone sleeves for the bottoms of these. I think we need to get those. Because then they won't clank. Yeah. I mean, first of all, you're right.

We should. But I cannot let this slide that you're like a Swifty. I'm an Awalloyee. I'm an Awallakawalla. What? That's a fan of Awallas. I just made it up right now. We call ourselves Kawals. Sounds like you're about to start a fan club. wall as I just made it up right now. We call ourselves koalas.

Sounds like you're about to start a fan club. We like koala tea water bottles. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. You know, if you were a real fan, you would have gotten the pink one. I tried. Would you set an alarm? No, I actually forgot about it.

And then here's the deal. Someone put in the Discord that they sold out in three minutes. I did then go check the website to see if that was true. And it turns out it was. You thought someone was telling a terrible lie to you. I thought, like, maybe later, like, maybe they only had a certain amount, and then they're like, oh, we better, you know, free up some more of these. So, bank check later, still sold out. So, didn't get one.

It's fine. Wow. How many water bottles does one woman need, I ask you? I only have two. Me too. I have a black one and this flaming flamingo. Mm-hmm. And I wanted the

hot pink one and I don't even remember what it was called now. Wow. It's so sad. I'm barely in a wall of koala. You're like a decapitated koala. What's a decapitated koala? What do you mean, what's a decapitated koala? You said you were barely a koala, so I took part of the koala off.

It was the head, obviously. Oh, my gosh. That got very dark. Good luck sipping on your Hoala now. Oh, my gosh. Anyway. So, you know, Denise makes this threat. Cheryl's like, yeah, once this investigation starts. Yeah, I don't have the control to end this investigation.

And also, even if I could, I wouldn't. Yeah. And then Mike's brother, Nick, who had been in the kitchen this whole time during the confrontation, just lost it. And he goes, we just want to know what you and Brian did to him. Yeah, we fucking do. Denise. Yeah. But the criminal investigation didn't turn up much.

You see, Brandy, right from the start, Mike's disappearance had been treated like an accident and any bit of physical evidence from the scene was gone. Don't know if you realize that that's how that would work. All the investigators really had was a feeling that Denise and Brian were super sketchy. Brian had been super involved in the search for Mike. He'd found the boat. He'd sold Mike and Denise those life insurance policies. He'd killed Mike. Oh, hold on. Denise had gotten the ball rolling fairly quickly on getting Mike declared legally dead so that she could collect on those policies. Investigators interviewed Denise

and Brian separately. Denise had a lawyer present, and she didn't say much of anything. But Brian talked quite a bit. They asked for his alibi for the day that Mike went missing, and Brian lied. He lied? Mm-hmm. He said that around 3 p.m. that day, he'd gone to his then-wife's family's house for a Christmas party.

But they'd already talked to Brian's ex-wife, Kathy. And she remembered that he showed up a couple hours later that evening. Oh, interesting. Yeah, but that's all it is. You know, it looked bad, but it wasn't enough to bring charges against anybody. but it wasn't enough to bring charges against anybody. So the case was opened, and it almost immediately went cold. The state opened an insurance fraud investigation, but that went cold too.

Brian and Denise got married in 2005. If someone had something to do with Mike's disappearance, it was most likely Brian or Denise or both Brian and Denise. But they weren't going to turn on each other. So years passed. Cheryl didn't give up, even after investigators stopped returning her calls. Cheryl continued to believe that Mike was out there somewhere, alive. Alive? Cheryl?

Yeah. That makes me feel terrible for her. Yeah. In an interview with the local media, Cheryl said, Until God tells me in my heart that child is dead, I cannot give up looking for him. A few years later, Brian and Denise's marriage hit the rocks. Well, weird. In 2012, they separated. And who started talking?

No one. What? Yeah. A couple years later, Denise filed for divorce. A couple years later, Denise filed for divorce. And then on August 5th, 2016, Denise got into her gold Suburban to go to work. And as she backed out of the driveway, Brian emerged from the back of the vehicle. He climbed over the back seat and pressed a gun to her stomach.

What? What? Denise didn't know it at the time, but Brian had a backpack with him that held tarps and spray bottles of bleach. He told Denise to drive to a remote location. Instead, she swerved into a CVS parking lot. She wanted to be somewhere public where they'd be on surveillance cameras. So they sat there in this parking lot, and Denise asked him, Is this the day we both die? And he said, Just me.

What? Brian told her he couldn't live without her. He said he was going to kill himself. Denise talked to him for about an hour, trying to calm him down. She eventually convinced him to let her go, on the condition that she would never tell the police. She drove him to his car, and got in it and before he drove away he apologized you know. Cool. Sorry for my bad yo. Hiding in your car and then jumping over the seats and sticking a gun in your stomach. Oh my gosh. Denise waited for him to leave, and she hauled ass to the police department.

She told them everything that had just happened. But, I mean, they knew that Denise and Brian were key suspects in the disappearance of Mike Williams. So they called in the detective who'd been working on that case, and he, quite rudely, asked her some questions that had nothing to do with the kidnapping that went down that day. He asked her, do you think he's responsible for Mike's disappearance? And Denise said, I do not and I never have. I would have never married him if I thought that. Interesting. The detective asked, where do you think Mike's buried at?

And Denise said, no, I have no idea. She was, I mean, totally calm, unfazed, and unwilling to talk any further. Brian was arrested later that day for kidnapping, armed burglary, and domestic assault. was arrested later that day for kidnapping, armed burglary, and domestic assault. And as the Southern gentleman who was interviewed for the episode of Cold Case Files put it, Brian was facing 30 years or better. Or better. Or better.

Yeah, Brian was in deep shit. Yeah. But don't worry. He got a plea deal. And I think it was a hell of a deal. For who? For him. Uh-huh.

If he told them everything he knew about Mike Williams' disappearance and Denise's involvement, he wouldn't suffer any consequences. He'd only be on the hook for kidnapping Denise. Holy shit, that is a hell of a deal. Yeah, so Brian took it. Yeah. His sentencing for Denise's kidnapping took place in December of 2017. That day, Denise read a victim impact statement to the court. She said she lived every day of her life in fear that Brian would retaliate against her for going to the police. She said he will finish what he has started no matter what age he is when he's released. It comes down to my life or his, and I am asking you, please choose mine. The judge sentenced Brian to 20 years in prison.

Wow. Yeah. Great move. What's he have to say? I want to know. I'm sorry. I had to take a drink of water. I was positively parched.

I was positively parched. The day after that sentencing, police announced that they'd found the remains of Mike Williams. Because Brian told them where they were when he sat down with him and told them. You know, the more you push me, the slower I go. This is me digging in my heels. And my heels are crusty, so they will get traction. It came out that two months before the sentencing, Brian told the investigators his side of the story, and he led them to Mike's body. Here's what he told them.

He said that he and Denise started having an affair on October 13, 1997. That's Steve's birthday. Really? Yes. Well, it was also the day of a Sister Hazel concert in Florida. Great! Yeah, Mike and Denise and Brian and Karen all went on a double date there together. And when Mike and Kathy parked the car, Denise and Brian started making out in the club.

Really? Yeah. In the club? At a Sister Hazel concert. Wait, what's a Sister Hazel song? I can't remember. What's the song that they're known for? Is it that one? I just say what it is I see in you

Wonder if I'll always be with you I think so I can't do enough to prove it's all for you Oh yeah, I was right Yeah, good job Thank you And that came out in 94, so you know they sang it at this. Oh, yeah, I was right. Yeah, good job. Thank you. And that came out in 94, so you know they sang it at this concert. Oh, for sure.

So, you know, they made out at the club. People saw them. I mean, the next night they had phone sex because it's the 90s. You should. Oh, my gosh. Wow. You want to make Brandy projectile vomit. Mention phone sex.

The look on your face. Oh, Brandy, I hate it. What are you wearing, Brandy? Yeah, I think it's so weird. Yeah. No, thank you. No, this is a hard pass. The more they talked, the more they wanted to be together.

Not just that night, but, you know, all the other nights, too. Yeah, I got it. Over time, the affair became more and more obvious. Brian said that Denise started to worry about her marriage. He said she was very concerned about how she appeared to other people. She wanted to appear perfect. And divorce isn't perfect. Is that your stomach?

No. Oh, okay. What'd you hear? Maybe it was your fucking stomach. Oh, that was an airplane. I think it's an airplane. God dang. I thought maybe those wings were doing some things. No, my stomach feels just fine.

Thanks for asking. Sounds like a jet. He claimed that he and Denise brainstormed a couple scenarios. One of them was like he would like pretend to do like a robbery where Mike worked. At one point they talked about a boating accident where both of their spouses would oopsies die and they'd both survive. But Brian didn't want to kill his wife. He was like, I'd rather just divorce her. Oh, because he thought it was okay to get divorced.

Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, just get fucking divorced! Denise! Later, while Denise and Brian were still in talks about how they'd like to kill Mike, Mike and Brian went on a hunting trip and Mike got stuck in some quicksand and Brian pulled him out, which was effectively saving his life.

Why did he save his life if he's trying to kill him? OK, is that not a Coen Brothers movie? It is. Yeah. So afterward, Brian was like, oh, shit, probably should have my bad. But apparently that incident kind of, this doesn't even make sense, but it gave them the idea that like, well, maybe Mike's death could be an accident. And that way, like, it's not murder and it's more like God's will of like, he just, you know, happens to have something bad happen and no one helps him. Yeah, but if you're coordinating the bad thing happening, it's still murder.

If we're actively plotting it. Yeah, that's still murder. God is always listening. God, big fan of this podcast. So they came up with... Just God and Josh Mankiewicz every week. Listening to this podcast. They listen together.

They do. I'm envisioning like Oprah's set. Yeah. Sure. God obviously sits where Oprah sits. Obviously. Sorry, sure. God obviously sits where Oprah sits. Obviously. Sorry, Josh.

Anyway, they came up with the plan for Brian and Mike to go duck hunting. And when Mike had his waders on, Brian would push him into the water and he'd drown. An accident. That was the plan. But Brian told detectives that it didn't go down that way. He pushed Mike into the water and Mike got his waders off, which made sense. I mean, he was a cautious guy. Like, he trained for that.

So he got them off. He swam to a stump. He clung to it. He was panicking. Yeah. And Brian panicked too. He said he circled Mike in the water twice, trying to figure out what to do. And then he shot Mike in the head. Oh my gosh. Afterward, he loaded Mike's body into the back of his car. I didn't write down the exact timeline, but I believe he loaded Mike's body into his car. He went back home, got in bed with his wife, and she was still asleep. So then he, you know, presumably woke up and said, oh, I'm going to go do whatever.

And he went to Walmart and bought a shovel, a tarp and some weights. You can't buy all that together. You would think you would. Can there be like a flag, you know? Hey, what do you want to be on it? This guy's a murderer flag. OK. It doesn't have to be pretty.

It just has to get the point across. He even ran into one of his and Mike's friends at Walmart. Wow. Yeah. From there, Brian drove Mike's body onto Gardner Road, which was an area that Brian knew well, and he dug a hole two feet deep, and he buried Mike there. Afterward, he used a pressure washer to get the blood out of his car. He said that after he murdered Mike, he and Denise continued their affair, but they took precautions. They tried to wait an appropriate amount of time to get married, tried to wait a little while before they got the insurance money. I mean, not that long. No, they really didn't wait super long. After Brian spilled his side of the story, he led investigators to the spot where he'd buried Mike. It took about five days of digging, but they eventually found Mike's body.

He'd been buried five miles from his mom's house. Investigators went to Cheryl Williams' house to give her the news. By that point, she was elderly. She was in a wheelchair. Her son had been missing for 17 years, but she had always believed he was alive. Oh, my gosh. She was devastated to learn that he'd been dead this whole time. Oh, that's so sad.

In an interview, she said, I don't know how to tell you how it felt because all that time I'm looking for a child who's alive, and they tell me he's dead. He's been dead for 17 years. Part of me just died that day. A few months after they uncovered Mike's remains, investigators arrested Denise. They picked her up at work. She worked at Florida State. Her mugshot is terrifying. Really? Yeah, she looks like the meanest white lady you've ever seen in your life. I am not kidding you.

Meanest white woman ever. Can I look it up? Yeah. Denise Williams mugshot. Okay, it's the... Oh! You see the one with the poof in her hair? Yeah.

That scowl. Mm-hmm. She does look like the meanest white woman ever. Mm-hmm. It looks like she got a bit of a make-under later. All right. See, this is why I shouldn't have allowed you to look at the other stuff here. Okay, don't look at anything else. No, just pictures. All right. See, this is why I shouldn't have allowed you to look at the other stuff here.

Okay, don't look at anything else. No, no, just pictures. Just pictures. Just pictures. All right. She was charged with first-degree murder and conspiracy

to commit murder. Her trial began in December of 2018. In opening statements, the prosecution argued that Denise Williams was just as culpable in Mike's murder as Brian Winchester. And Brian Winchester would tell them all about Denise's role in Mike's murder. But Denise's defense attorney, Philip Padovano, made a very good argument that the case against Denise Williams was weak as hell. He told the jury, there's no tangible evidence or physical evidence to connect Denise Williams to this crime. No confession, no admission, nothing.

No, and Brian gained a lot. Yes, he certainly did. By telling this story and implicating her. Yes, he certainly did. Yes. A lot. Mm-hmm. Ooh, okay. He said, the issue you are going to have to decide is whether to believe him.

All you're going to have to go on is the word of the man who actually committed the murder. man who actually committed the murder. The prosecution naturally didn't mention anything about Brian's plea deal in their opening statement, but the defense sure did. Yeah, I bet they did. He said, Mr. Winchester has a motive to lie to you. He has a motive to make up this accusation against Mrs. Williams. He didn't mention anything about her alleged participation in this murder until he realized he was facing a life sentence in this kidnapping, and after he realized Mrs. Williams was going to go into court and ask for a life sentence. I mean, that's an excellent defense. Yes. I think so, too. Yeah. Yes. I think so, too.

Yeah. Brian Winchester was, of course, the prosecution's star witness. He started his testimony by talking about his affair with Denise, and he talked about how tight-knit he and his wife and Mike and Denise had been. They'd all gone to North Florida Christian High School together. Oh, North Florida Christian school together. Excuse me. Denise and Mike had been high school sweethearts, and so had Brian and Kathy. They'd gone on double dates in high school. They'd gone on double dates.

The date outside your circle. Oh, my God. These folks didn't. Oh, my gosh. It's a real small pool. Ooh. Oh, my gosh. It's a real small pool.

He detailed everything he'd said in his confession to detectives, so I won't recap it. He also talked about how his father had been devastated when Mike went missing. He said his dad called him up on the day Mike went missing and was like, we can't find Mike. You've got to get out here and help with the search. And so he did. And on the stand, Brian broke down crying. He said, he was searching and I was just lying. My dad didn't want to give up. My dad loved Mike. Brian was crying so hard that the judge called a 10-minute recess. Wow. After the recess, Brian came back to the stand and talked about how after the murder,

he and Denise kept their distance for a while. She specifically told him that she didn't want the details of how Mike died. But when Mike's body didn't turn up, it was pretty clear that things hadn't gone according to plan. They wanted that life insurance money, so they waited a little while, and then they got the presumptive death certificate, which allowed Denise to cash in. He talked about how over time they became paranoid. They knew that Cheryl was on to them. One time when Denise was over at Cheryl's house, she found a notebook that Cheryl was keeping. It was kind of like her own investigation into her son's house, she found a notebook that Cheryl was keeping. It was kind of like her own investigation into her son's disappearance. And there were a lot of notes about Denise and Brian

in there. They worried that their phones were being monitored. They worried that they were being followed. They developed a secret code to use with each other. They used the hand signal C for Cheryl, and they made two fists when they were talking about prison. Like their hands were on the bars? Yeah, pretty sophisticated code. Yeah. What's that you said about these people being really dumb? Yeah, when they were planting evidence that wasn't weathered in any way.

Yeah, but who's the dumbest? I mean, investigators. Well, yeah, exactly. They didn't see through it. I think they did. Really? Maybe that's just me being shitty, but I do think there are cases where,

you know what? All the physical evidence is gone because we treated this as an accident from the get-go. There's no more paperwork. We have this closed. We don't look the other way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It goes back to, like, my thing of, like, you can't tell me that it wasn't somewhat common knowledge in those circles that an alligator wouldn't have done that in December. Yeah. Brian did— Like, a really hungry alligator. Even then, he was kind of late to the big, like, pre-hibernation grub. And so he just got like a few little scrappies at the end. Even then, he'd leave evidence. Absolutely. Brian did pretty well on the witness stand.

But I loved the job that the defense did cross-examining him. They got him to admit that after he was arrested for kidnapping Denise, he had tampered with witnesses, namely his sister and cousin. The defense got him to admit that he'd tried to get another dude who was in jail to fabricate evidence against Denise. Wow. And it was only when the prosecution threatened him with additional charges of witness tampering that he agreed to take a deal and tell them everything about Mike's murder. Wow. Yeah, I don't like this case. Mm-mm.

At the end of cross-examination, the defense asked, Mr. Winchester, you're a murderer. Isn't it true? And Brian said, yes, sir. The defense said, Mr. Winchester, you're a liar. Isn't that true? And Brian said, yes, sir. Oh, my gosh. that's so good. At one point, this is where it gets kind of weird. Brian showed the jury some scandalous pictures that he took. They were like sexy pics of Denise and Kathy together. What? Yeah, okay. I think this is... Just like for funsies or was this part of the trial? It was part of the trial. He wasn't like, hey, anybody want to get a little turned on here?

No, it was part of the trial, but like I don't really see how this was like super relevant. Yeah, no. Like, super relevant. Yeah, no. So he claimed that the pictures were from before Mike was, or no, he said they were from after Mike was murdered. Kathy later said they were taken before Mike was murdered. I mean, bottom line, it does prove that, you know, there was something sexual going on between Denise and Mike for a long time. Denise and Mike were married, so that does make sense for them to be having sex.

Oh, gosh. Damn it. I know your husband took a virginity pledge, Kristen. Yeah. Good luck proving anything's happening over here. Yeah, as this trial revealed, every last one of these people was horned up. Yeah. Brian cheated on Kathy.

Kathy cheated on Brian. Then Brian was with Denise. But then Brian cheated on Denise with this woman named Angela. And Denise walked in on Brian, banging Angela. And Brian ran after her. And Angela took the stand to testify to all this because why not? Yeah. When they weren't talking about sex stuff, the prosecution did other things, too. They showed the jury the document that proved that Denise filed Mike's life insurance claim 19 days after he went missing. Wow. Yeah, that's too soon. Oh, yeah.

Wow. Yeah, that's too soon. Oh, yeah. The prosecution also called Brian's ex-wife, Kathy, to the witness stand. So she turned state's witness a while earlier, and she'd actually recorded a phone call that she had with Denise. Yeah, okay, don't get too excited. I mean, the prosecution treated this like, you know, oh, here's... Damning evidence! I mean, it's not good.

Yeah. Twice in the call, Kathy accused Denise of being involved in Mike's murder. And Denise just kind of didn't react or change the subject or kind of evaded. I mean, yeah, it's not

not smoking gun by any means. It's not what an innocent person would do, I think. But it's also not an admission of anything. No. One really interesting thing that Kathy said was that after Brian was arrested for kidnapping Denise, Denise called Kathy and asked her to relay a message to Brian's dad. The message was, I'm not talking. Interesting.

She wanted Kathy to give that message to Brian's dad to give that to Brian. To me, that's the damning thing. Yeah. Which is interesting. I don't know.

Maybe. Well, OK, let me I'll continue. The prosecution called Cheryl Williams to the stand. She talked about all that she of 2001, after she did an interview with a journalist for a story about missing people, Denise called her up livid. She told her she didn't want to see Mike's name in the paper ever again. She wanted to get on with her life. The defense then tried to cross-examine Cheryl. Oh, yeah.

I bet. Oh. Well, first of all. I like Cheryl. First of all, how do you cross examine a grieving mother and not look like the biggest asshole ever? So, you know, the defense is trying to do their best here. And they're like, you know, well, was it appropriate for your granddaughter to see billboards asking for information about a father who had been declared legally dead? Wouldn't the idea of Mike being alive be difficult for Denise as she was trying

to put this whole thing behind her? And Cheryl goes, if she were innocent, then yes. So at that point, the defense is like, okay, and they sit back down. So at that point, the defense is like, okay, and they sit back down. And then the prosecutor shoots back up and asked, when Mike's body was found and it was proven that he was murdered, did Denise call and apologize or offer reconciliation with Ansley? And Cheryl said she never did call. After that, Cheryl was wheeled out of the courtroom and she just stared daggers at Denise the whole time. I love that. I do, too.

When Cheryl came in to give testimony, Denise tried to smile at her. Oh, go fuck yourself, Denise. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry, I'm picturing my Aunt Denise listening to this episode. at her. Oh, go fuck yourself, Denise. Mike's brother... I'm sorry, I'm picturing my Aunt Denise listening to this episode. Not that Denise. Mike's brother Nick also testified.

That Denise is the best. No, simply the best. He talked about how shocking it was when Denise got mad at him and his mom for continuing to talk to reporters. He said, we were just trying to find Mike. We thought she'd want to do the same thing. Yep.

The defense's case was pretty short. They called up a few witnesses and they were all people who were like, yeah, you know, Denise and Mike seem to have a really good relationship. Okay, goodbye. Yeah. In his closing statement, defense attorney Ethan Way said that if you take away Brian Winchester's testimony, the state has absolutely nothing on Denise. No case. That's so true. This case is all about Brian Winchester, the murder he committed.

But in his closing statement, the prosecutor brought the drama. He held up a photo of Denise next to a close-up photo of Mike's skeletal hand. Oh, my gosh. So Mike had been buried with his wedding ring. So when they found him, his wedding ring was still on his finger. Oh, my gosh. Denise Williams took to heart is the death do us part. And then he took the ring out of his pocket and he laid it on the jury box. And he said, so she took it to the extreme. And she, along with Brian Winchester, made sure that death did him part. Oh, I think it's a little much.

But. It's pretty, no, it would be, I think it would be effective. Yeah. The jury deliberated for eight hours and they found Denise guilty. Wow.

She was sentenced to life in prison. Wow. Okay, what are your thoughts? Well, I think she's involved, but I don't think the prosecution had a very strong case. My personal feeling is that she's involved, but I don't know that they proved it. So, okay, I'm close to your opinion, too. I think she was involved.

Mm-hmm. I don't think the prosecution proved it at all. Yeah. And I think this is an investigative failure. Yeah. Yeah. They dug in their heels and they said, no, no, no, no, no. It was alligators.

It was alligators. And all the evidence went away. Yep. And I think the only way they got this guy to talk was to kind of maybe coerce is too strong a term, but like. Yeah. But how mad can I be when I think she was involved? I do think she's involved. It does scare me on what the lack of evidence

that she was convicted on. Yeah, it comes down to that thing of, hmm, do you want the court system to work how it's supposed to work, or do you want justice? Right. Because justice is, yeah, she should go to prison.

Yeah. But beyond a reasonable doubt, I don't fucking think so. She did appeal. And in November of 2020, the Court of Appeals overturned her sentence and her murder conviction. Wow. I mean, it's basically what we've already kind of said. They found that the state had failed to prove that she was a principal to murder, which was more of a vice principal.

Oh, God, I hate myself. Okay. But the appellate court upheld the charge of conspiracy to commit murder. So at her resentencing hearing, Denise's attorneys argued that she'd played a minor role in the conspiracy to kill Mike. I mean, boy, great. Yeah. Cheryl Williams spoke at that hearing, and she told the judge, Mike suffered horribly. For the rest of my life, when I try to sleep, I see my son clinging to a stump in the freezing water.

Please don't show her any mercy. She didn't show my son any mercy. She took him away from his daughter. Denise also spoke. She told the judge that her two years in prison had been a nightmare. She said that she had never murdered anybody and would never want anyone to be murdered. She said, What I am guilty of is great moral failure in a time in my life when I chose to make a decision that affected my friends and family. There is nothing I can do to bring Mike back to his grieving mom or brother. There's nothing I can do to bring his daughter's father back. If I could trade my life for his, I would.

By that point, Denise and Mike's daughter was a grown woman, and she spoke in defense of her mom. But the judge was not moved, and Denise was sentenced to 30 years in prison. Everything I've seen on this case has said that Cheryl has not seen her granddaughter since she was five years old. Yeah. I think that's an interesting move the defense did at the resentencing hearing by arguing she played a minor role. Why wouldn't they stick with the fact that she played no role. I wonder if maybe that wouldn't necessarily work in this case because that conspiracy to commit, that was upheld. So you know she's going to get some time. Right.

So maybe the feeling is. Minimize it as much as possible. Yeah. So maybe the feeling is minimize it as much as possible. Yeah. But even then, like her her statement that she made to the court to me doesn't make any sense at all. No. Because what are you apologizing for if you never wanted anyone killed? Yeah.

for if you never wanted anyone killed. Yeah. I guess the argument would be she played a minor role by knowing what Brian was going to do and doing nothing to stop him, which would in turn make her guilty of conspiracy. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah.

Ugh. I feel sorry for their daughter. Absolutely. And that's the story of the disappearance of Mike Williams. Wow. I did not know that at all. I'm shocked. And by the way, I'm sorry.

That was really long. It was wonderful. Holy shit really long. It was wonderful. Holy shit. Okay. It was good. Enjoyed it very much. Well, you know what else we enjoy around here? No, you know what we got to do first?

What? This is an ad. It's time for an ad. Now it's time for an ad. The ad is over. That is the end of the ad. Oh, do I need to go to the bathroom? I don't know. Do you?

I think only you can tell. Only you can decide if you have to poo. Okay. I'm going to go to the bathroom. Okay, great. Enjoy. I will. Thank you. Alright, you ready to hear about a mother's love? Yeah, this is an accidental theme.

It is an accidental theme. It is an accidental theme. It is. Okay. Shout out to Sky Pollensworth in the Discord who recommended this case. And also to an episode of the Netflix show, I Am a Killer. Are you familiar? Oh, that comes up in my recommended and I always skip. I have never watched it before.

I assume it's interviews with the killers. That is correct. And so that, for me, is just a hard pass. Yeah. Yeah. I can see that. Don't care to hear from them. Okay.

Well, I'm going to tell you a story about what happened today. Could I skip this one? No. Nope. Also, this is local-ish. Oh, really? Yep. Yep.

Go on. Get excited. I am excited. How local? Oh, you'll find out very quickly. Fine. Go. It was April 14th, 2017, when Margaret Peggy Heffernan pulled up to her rural Knob Noster, Missouri home.

Wow. Okay. Yes. Famous. Famously the site of many a camping excursion. Camping excursion by us, yes, in our younger days. Yeah, we spent a lot of time in Knob Noster growing up. Yes. In our younger days. Yeah. We spent a lot of time in Knob Noster growing up. Yes.

Peggy saw her daughter, 31-year-old Gemma Donahue, on the front porch looking dazed. Something was wrong. Peggy approached her daughter. Javon's inside, Gemma said. Gemma was referring to her estranged husband, Javon Donahue, who she had recently filed for an order of protection against. We need to call the police, Peggy said. But Gemma shook her head and told her mother, he's dead. Did she kill him in self-defense?

Let's find out. That's the true theme of this episode. Before Peggy had a chance to process what she was hearing, the phone started ringing. The two women glanced at the caller ID, Johnson County Sheriff's Office. Just for the record, Johnson County, Missouri. Oh, there's Johnson County, Kansas, and there's Johnson County, Missouri. Johnson County, Missouri. Oh, there's Johnson County, Kansas, and there's Johnson County, Missouri.

Gemma had called 911 moments earlier, but she'd hung up without speaking to anyone. Was it because she slipped into a weird accident? I don't know. I'm not real sure. But they were calling back to make sure that everything was okay. Peggy moved to answer the phone, but Gemma asked her not to. And Peggy answered anyway. The dispatcher on the other end explained that they were returning a 911 hang-up call. They needed to make sure that everything was okay.

Gemma mouthed to her mother to tell them that everything was okay. She silently pleaded to her mother. She begged. And after pausing for a moment, Peggy told the operator that everything was fine, that the call had been an accident, and she apologized for the inconvenience. But they still come out anyway, don't they? The dispatcher told her they would need to send someone to the address anyway, just to be sure. And so Peggy and Gemma sat on the front porch waiting for the police to come.

As they sat, Peggy racked her brain for some way to help her daughter. Peggy knew that Gemma believed that her mother had betrayed her once before when she was 13 years old. And it had ruined their relationship. It had sent Gemma down a tough and painful path, one that had led her to this very moment. And in that moment, Peggy vowed to not betray her daughter again. Gemma Heffernan Donahue was born in Berlin, Germany on October 24th, 1985 to a military family. She was the baby of the family, the youngest of, I believe, three children. And as is common in military families, the Heffernans moved around a lot. They moved back to the U.S. in 1990. They spent some amount of time in Mississippi

before ultimately moving to Missouri. Gemma's parents were super strict. She said she didn't get that kind of lax parenting style that is common for the youngest child to receive. Instead, she recalled almost getting in trouble before she'd actually done anything wrong. Like her parents would think she was going to do something wrong and punish her before she could do it. Okay. Gemma grew up feeling very sheltered. She was homeschooled until she was in the sixth grade. Then her mother decided to enroll her in public school, But Gemma just didn't fit in. She was behind, not so much academically.

She did fine academically, but she was really behind socially. The kids in her school seemed to know way more about the world than Gemma did. She felt like she had just like existed in this bubble up until then. And then all of a sudden she's taken out of it. Yep. And she had a really hard time adjusting. And she was bullied relentlessly. And then when she was 13, Gemma was sexually assaulted by a 21-year-old man.

Her parents found out about it and she begged them not to call the police. She just wanted it to go away. She didn't want anyone to know. And initially her parents agreed. But then her mother called the police and reported the sexual assault and word quickly spread through town. Oh, that's so shitty. Okay. Here is a note. I went down a bit of a Reddit rabbit hole on this case. And there are some people online who claim that they grew up with Gemma. And they said that she called the person who sexually assaulted her her boyfriend. They did this, obviously, to minimize her victim status and to discredit her. Those people are fucking idiots.

But it does not fucking matter. She was 13 years old. She was a child. He was a 21-year-old adult. Whatever happened between the two of them is sexual assault, no matter what she called him. Well, and like, hello, idiots. She was clearly groomed. Yes.

Yeah, I bet he did say all kinds of stuff to her. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, the comments are like, well, the real story here is that the 21-year-old was her boyfriend. The real story here is that the 21-year-old was her boyfriend. The real story here is that she was groomed. God, you're fucking... Just drives me crazy.

Yeah. She is a victim. A 13-year-old cannot consent. Anyway. But hold on. One time he got her some flowers. Yeah. So you tell me who's upset now.

Yeah. So after Peggy reported the sexual assault to the police, a week went by and nothing had happened. The man wasn't arrested. No charges were filed. And so Peggy went back to the police and asked them, like, what the fuck is going on? You're shaking the whole table, by the way. And they were like, oh, yeah, sorry. We've actually been unable to locate this gentleman. So tough titties. Who was this guy? I don't have a name.

Somebody in town that people knew, though. Who was this guy? I don't have a name. Somebody in town that people knew, though. And so Peggy, who I will say I am definitely a little bit afraid of based on her hairstyle alone. What was her hairstyle? Okay. All right.

I'd like you to imagine. Okay. You're a little kid. Okay. You're in the swimming pool. All right. You got wet hair. Okay.

You come up out of the water. Oh, yeah. You put all the hair in front of your face. And then you Martha Washington. Yep, Martha Washington it. Okay. You're in the swimming pool. All right. You got wet hair. Okay. You come up out of the water. Oh, yeah. You put all the hair in front of your face. And then you Martha Washington. Yep, Martha Washington it. Okay. So she's got that in the front and then just very tight bun right here. Very interesting you bring this up. Cheryl's hairstyle?

Uh-huh. Pigtails. What the fuck? How did you not mention that it felt weird okay yeah it felt weird because i like cheryl so much and she's been through so much and also the older she got the cuter it looked on her yeah um we're talking high high pigtails low pigtails? Oh, high. Oh, okay. And, you know, like in front of the ears. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Okay. It's not great. Okay. But, yeah. So, Peggy's hairstyle reads very religious to me, although I didn't find anything about them being a particularly religious family. But very swimming pool to you. I love the idea of not being religious, but adopting the hairstyle. I don't want those beliefs, but I do want that ugly ass hair.

I do want that hair. So anyway, I'm scared of her hair is what I'm saying. Anyway, so they're like, you know, sorry that, you know, we couldn't, we've been unable to find him. So, you know, whatever. So Peggy's pissed. Yeah. Peggy went home and told her son, Gemma's older brother, who was in high school at this time, to go up to his school and offer $100 to anyone who could tell her where this man was. Oh, my God. And within 15 minutes, Peggy got a call with an address.

And so she drove to that address and she waited. And before long, she spotted this man, this 21-year-old man outside and he also spotted her. Oh, wow. He started walking towards Peggy's car. He was spewing obscenities at her and Peggy lost it. She put her car in gear and pointed it directly at the man. She was going to hit him with her car. Yeah. She drove toward him, and at the last second, he managed to jump out of the way into, like, a row of hedges. Wow. Mm-hmm.

Wow. Mm-hmm. A short time later, Peggy opened her front door to find a sheriff's deputy on her front step. They told her that if she would drop the charges on the man accused of sexually assaulting Gemma, maybe then they wouldn't press charges on her for attempting to run him over with her car. Fuck off. Seriously, fuck off. Fuck all the way off. Yeah.

Peggy said that she told the police that she would absolutely not be dropping the charges. But I could not find how either of these cases progressed. I don't know if she ended up being charged with anything, and I don't know if he ended up, if this moved forward and he was convicted of anything. But what I do know is that word of all of this spread very quickly through town, and the bullying that Gemma was suffering just ramped up from there. And continues to this day on fucking Reddit. Uh-huh. Nice.

Yep. Yeah, to this day. Yep. Toxic. Absolutely. It was really bad. Gemma ended up having to leave the school district because of it. I'm sure.

And she basically went into lockdown. Her mother became even more strict. Peggy described it as being a helicopter mom. She hovered around Gemma constantly. Gemma said she basically wasn't allowed to have friends from that point on. Anytime she would meet someone new, her mother would do a background check on them. Oh, gosh. And it made it very difficult for her to have any kind of social life.

Now, Kristen, I know this is going to be shocking. Mm-hmm. But Gemma rebelled against that. What? Yes. Yeah, she completely blamed her mother for her difficulties in school and her difficulties in making friends. And so she acted out. At some point, she started using drugs.

She became somewhat promiscuous. And when she was 16, Gemma got pregnant and gave birth to a little boy. Gemma said everyone told her that her life was over at that moment when she became pregnant and a mother at 16. They said she'd ruined it. But Gemma said that she knew the moment she laid eyes on her son that there was nothing she wouldn't do for him. She understood how strong a mother's love could be at that point and how you do anything to protect your child. Three years later, Gemma gave birth to her second child, a daughter. And at some point, she went to cosmetology school and she was working in the Knob Noster Warrensburg area as a hairstylist. Did she do anything to her mom's hair?

I don't know. I will say I saw, okay, Peggy on this episode rocks the scary hairstyle. But there were some footage of. There were some footage. scary hairstyle. But there were some footage of There were some footage. There was some footage of 2017 Peggy who had

short hair. So short color. And she had color in her hair. Did you hear my stomach? Was that your stomach? That was my stomach. I thought that was a bird outside. Yeah, it sounded like a bird or possibly like you know when you go to the dollar store

and you get a kazoo? Call me crazy. I think the combo of iced coffee and buffalo wings was not good. It was good. It was not good. Yeah. So she's, you know, she's a single mom. She's working as a cosmetologist.

And then in 2007, Gemma met Javon Donahue. There are some conflicting accounts of how they met. I will say, okay, the thing about I Am a Killer is that you get the story completely from the killer's point of view. Right. And in this particular episode, it seemed that they were trying to minimize some of the things that Gemma had been through in her life, mainly substance use disorder. Yeah. There wasn't a ton of mention of it, but it's definitely something that was going on in her life. Sure. So one article says that Javon and Gemma met in rehab. Another article said they met taking classes at the University of Central

Missouri. But Gemma says that they met through a mutual friend when Javon was being released from prison. Wow, that's a lot of different stories. It is a lot of different stories. And the story that Gemma tells on this episode is so weird to me, so I'm going to tell it to you. Okay. This is how she says that she met Javon. So Javon had gone to prison on a drug manufacturing charge. And a friend of his reached out to Gemma, who it was like a mutual friend, when Javon was about to be released from prison. He needed an address to put down as his residence as part of his home plan for his release. Okay. And this mutual friend asked if Javon could use Gemma's address.

And Gemma was like, yeah, no problem. And that's how she met Javon. Okay. And so then after Javon was released from prison, he and Gemma began spending a lot of time together. There were times that he would have to be at the address because of his release conditions and whatever. Gemma says that they never actually had a conversation about dating. They just suddenly were together. Yeah, I think that makes sense.

Gemma recalled that she felt oddly protective of Javon. He had had a pretty rough childhood. He bounced around to some different homes. I think within his family, wasn't like in the system as far as I could find. Yeah. Just, you know, had a pretty rough childhood. And she was really drawn to learning everything about him. She found his story inspiring.

drawn to learning everything about him. She found his story inspiring. She said that he had used his time in prison to rehabilitate himself and, you know, deal with his substance use disorder. Before long, Javon had actually moved in with Gemma at her address, and he took care of her two young children while she was working and attending UCM. Fun fact, UCM in Warrensburg is the university where David Stagg was a professor at. David Stagg's the guy that I covered where he had the three trials for the murder in Shawnee. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I am very sorry.

For a little while, I thought you said David's dad. No, David Stagg. I had no idea that David's dad was a professor. No, he was not. About four months after Gemma and Jovan moved in together, there was a knock at Gemma's door and she answered it. And it was the police. And they were there with a search warrant. They told her that Javon Donahue was a well-known crack cocaine dealer in Johnson County, Missouri and they were doing a search related to that. Gemma said she was floored by this. She had no

idea that Javon was still actively in drugs at all. She hadn't seen anything that made her think that. She had no idea that stuff like this was going on behind her back. She said that she had trusted him with her children and that this was super alarming to her. And so she confronted Javon that day and told him he needed to leave. And he responded by grabbing her around the throat and squeezing until she could not breathe. Gemma said Javon told her, you're never going to leave me. The only way you'll ever leave me is if I kill you. Gemma said she pleaded with Javon. She i love you why are you doing this to me and she said

javon replied fear lasts longer than love oh yeah god and that became the tone of their relationship for the next 10 years. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Gemma said that she convinced herself that she could fix Javon. She could get him back to the place he was when they first met, get him out of the drug scene, but the abuse just continued. And Gemma just learned how to deal with it. She covered it up. She didn't let people know what was going on.

She learned how to minimize it. She learned if she struggled less when he was choking her, that she would black out faster and it'd be over faster. Oh, my God. That's so sad. Mm-hmm. Yeah. She learned to cover the bruises and all of that and make excuses.

And she was really embarrassed. She didn't want anyone to know. Mm-hmm. Gemma also said that she really clung to the highs in the relationship, the good times. They were very few and very far between. But she said that made those moments that much better. It was in those moments that she could tell Javon really loved her. Gemma thought maybe if she got Javon out of Missouri, he had grown up like in the Kansas City, Missouri area.

And just he'd been all around the area for basically his whole life. the area for basically his whole life. So she thought maybe if she got him out of there and away from the things that she believed were, you know, the bad influences in their lives, that maybe things would be better. So in 2011, Gemma and Javon got married and they moved to Pennsylvania. Wow. Yeah, that's a big move. Yeah. But the abuse continued. At one point, Peggy confronted Javon. She asked him if he had put his hands on her daughter. She had seen the signs. She had noticed the bruises. She knew Gemma was withdrawing.

She knew Gemma had moved her family away from her other support system. Yeah. But Javon wouldn't answer Peggy. And Peggy told him, you just answered me by saying nothing. After five years of marriage, Gemma left Javon. She and her children moved into her parents' home at Knob Noster, but Javon followed them. He begged Gemma to stay with him, to take him back, and she did. He moved in with Gemma into the basement of her parents' home,

but he was back around his friends, back around the drug scene that he'd been around before, and it wasn't long before he was using drugs again. It wasn't long before he was using drugs again. Then on March 28th, 2017, Javon locked Gemma in a room. He beat her with a belt. He held a knife and a screwdriver to her throat. Oh, God. He slammed her repeatedly against the ground.

He threatened to kill her. He threatened to kill her children. He threatened to kill her. He threatened to kill her children. He threatened to kill her parents. Javon told Gemma he had nothing to lose. Gemma's parents helped her get him out of the house. They told him the marriage was over for good this time, and they helped Gemma file a protective order against Javon. order against Javon. In the filing, Peggy Heffernan said that on March 28, 2017, Javon Donahue punched Gemma in the head and the jaw, slammed her into the floor repeatedly, and then threatened to kill the entire family. With Javon out of the house, Gemma finally felt like she could breathe, but she was also anxious all the time. She never wanted to be alone.

She had to have someone around her. She was constantly terrified that Javon was going to come for her, make good on those threats. Ma'am. Oh, my God. Are you okay? I mean, I feel okay. Everyone, my stomach just made another really loud noise. Yeah.

What if I just explode? I mean, this is a new sweatshirt. Ma'am! I assume you're fine. This is what I'm assuming happens, okay? No, don't you try to fast forward through this, ma'am. You don't explode everywhere. I just...

It's like a... Okay, it's like when you open a fire hydrant, right? But that's just coming out your butt. And then you're shooting up. And then that's getting everywhere. Oh, and you think I'm just fine? How much liquid do you think I've got to spare? I mean, I am well hydrated.

That's right. But I can't just be shooting shit everywhere. And all you care about is your sweatshirt. It also sounds like it wouldn't smell very good. How about, oh, Kristen, I'd be so worried about you if your butt turned into a fire hydrant. I'd just be, oh, so upset. Worried sick. I wouldn't be like, ew, hey, this is my new sweatshirt.

All right. I can tell why you didn't go into the medical field. You just walk into a patient's room. Ew. Oh, my God. These are new scrubs. I should not be a nurse. Absolutely.

You are correct. I would pass out every minute of every day. I can't handle smells, so it's not for me. You're all up in people's hair, though. I can't always be too... Yeah, but I wash it, so... Yeah, but they come in with it stankin'. Yeah, I mean, I've had some stanky hair in my chair.

Yeah, it's true. Did it all rhyme? Tell us, give us a rhyme about the stankiest hair that's ever been in your chair. I'm not giving you a rhyme about the stankiest hair.'s ever been in your chair. I'm not giving you a rhyme about the stankiest hair. Well, you're not getting any of these cheese cubes. Okay, great. Imagine if I ate cheese cubes right now. That would be disgusting.

Well, I'd be asking for it. Whatever happens next, it'd be my first. Honestly, though, maybe that's a good counteract to your fire hydrant situation. Yeah, it'd plug me right up. Yeah. You know what you should do? If I start spouting off like a fire hydrant, you throw a— Shove some cheese cubes down your mouth.

Brick of Velveeta right at me. You have a brick of—I don't travel with a brick of Velveeta, Kristen. Is there one in the house? I assumed you had one in your bag. You always carry very large purses. I assumed it was a Mary Poppins situation. It is. This is a Mary Poppins carpet bag.

Although, I mean, Velveeta, it doesn't even have to be refrigerated. So is that even really cheese at all? I don't think that's going to get it done. I think you need like a ched. You need a good sharp ched. Yeah. All right. Well, I'm glad we got that settled.

Me too. All right. Well, I'm glad we got that settled. Me too. All right. So that brings us back to April 14th, 2017. I'm not done talking about cheese. I'm done talking about it. So it's Good Friday and Gemma was alone. I thought it was okay. It's so funny.

I gotta say, I thought that was a pretty good joke. Pretty solid. Sometimes you get mad because you didn't think of that. That's exactly, you're right. That's what has happened here today. That is what has happened. You're right. My feet are cold. You know what? didn't think of that. That's exactly right. That's what is happening here today. That is what has happened. You're right. My feet are cold.

You know what? I want one of those. What are we just doing? Like free association speaking right now? You know what? You know what my problem is? Hang on. Let me see what time it is.

Aha. Okay. Your medicine's wearing off. My ADD meds have worn off. Yeah. I took them extra early today because I had to wake up and work on the scripty script because I'm a professional. That's right. And now the meds have worn off.

And all I want to do is tell you that what I want is one of those things. It's like a little machine is a strong word. But, like, you just stick your feet in it. Yeah, and it warms them up and does a little massage-y. Yeah. Yeah. Those are probably like $30, right? Yeah, they're not.

I don't think they're that expensive. Just buy yourself one. I'm such a cheap ass. Yes, you are. I covet these things that are $30. Exactly. That would improve your life. Absolutely.

And it's well within reach. My life sucks right now. I'm about to explode from my ass. I know. I need to get through this case so I'm not here when it happens. I can tell you don't want to help me at all. All right.

Continue with your case, even though I would like to discuss the foot warming contraption. Okay. We are back to April 14th, 2017. Good Friday. Kristen thinks it's just all right. You just laughed a second time at your own stupid joke. You just laughed a second time at your own stupid joke. Gemma was alone for the first time since obtaining her order of protection.

She was nervous to be in the house by herself, and she was just kind of like wandering around. She walked downstairs, opened the family room door, and there was Javon just standing there in the house. He charged at her. He grabbed her by the throat and he dragged her upstairs. Javon was paranoid. He started like locking, checking the windows to make sure they were locked, closing all the blinds, checking the doors to make sure they were locked. It turns out that he was high on methamphetamine, which paranoia is a super common side effect of methamphetamine. He dragged Gemma along as he checked to see that all the doors and windows and blinds were all closed and locked and everything. And then he went down to the basement where he had once lived with Gemma.

went down to the basement where he had once lived with Gemma. Gemma heard Javon call to her, call for her really from the basement. And she went down. And when she entered the bedroom that they had once shared, he was standing there holding a gun. It was Gemma's dad's gun. It was a.22 caliber rifle, handgun, not rifle, sorry. Handgun. I don't know. Shotgun? No, it was not a shotgun. It was a handgun. All right.

It was a gun that Javon knew was in the house. He pointed it at Gemma, and he pulled the trigger. But the gun jammed. Shit. It didn't fire. Holy shit. And Javon was pissed that it didn't fire.

He pistol whipped Gemma with it. And as he did so, Gemma kind of fell to the ground and the gun fell to the ground. And so Gemma grabbed it and pointed it at Javon. She stood up. She told him to leave. But he said no. And he stepped toward her. And Gemma pulled the trigger. This time the gun fired. She shot him in the left shoulder.

Javon screamed at her. He said, you hit me. And he lunged towards Gemma. After he'd been shot? I mean, he'd been shot just like in the shoulder with a.22 caliber gun. So, like, that's a super small bullet. Okay. If you'll remember, okay, the case that I did, this is what I always think of when I think

of a 22. Okay. The case that I did, oh gosh, now I can't remember his name. Neil Entwistle, I think is his name. What did you say? Don't worry about it. Taylor Swift has a hit song several years back called 22. Great. So she's feeling 22. Okay. Neil Entwistle, he murdered his wife and daughter. And police, when they found their bodies, didn't actually realize at first that they'd been shot because the bullet wounds were so small. Yep, yep, yep. All right. Okay. So she's shot him in the shoulder. He's pissed. He says, you hit me, you shot me, whatever, and like lunges towards Gemma. whatever, and like lunges towards Gemma.

He and Gemma fought for the gun. He grabbed her by the wrists and pulled them kind of up while she still had a hold of the gun. So picture like Charlie's Angel pose kind of. And she fired the gun again while she was in this position. Yeah. This time she shot him under the chin, like through his jaw. Yeah. He was even angrier now. He's flung her around and slammed her to the ground. But she was still holding on to the gun and she fired it a third time. And again, she shot Javon. And he began to fall to the floor.

He landed on top of Gemma on the ground and he said, fuck it. We're going to die together, bitch. And he fought with Gemma for the gun again. He pulled it toward his head. And as he did so, Gemma reached around and pulled the trigger. Then everything went black. Gemma said when everything went black, she assumed she had died. Yeah.

She didn't realize that Javon had like landed on top of her. Yeah. And that she had closed her eyes. The next several minutes were a blur to Gemma. She said she realized she wasn't dead, but that Javon was. She crawled out from under him, made her way upstairs. And at some point she picked up the phone and dialed 9-1-1 and then she hadn't she didn't really realize she had done it at first it started ringing the phone connected

and then she panicked and hung it up she wasn't really sure what she would say she mean she just killed somebody yeah and that's when Peggy pulled up to the house. So we know what happened then. Peggy came up. She answered the phone. She told them the call had been an accident. They didn't need to come, but the dispatcher said, we have to send an officer anyway.

Yeah. So Gemma and Peggy sat on the front porch for 45 minutes waiting for the police to come. All the while, Peggy pleaded for Gemma to let her take the fall for Javon's death. She said she'd lived a full life. She was like 60 years old at this time. She said Gemma still had children to raise. But Gemma said no. She needed to take the blame. She needed to tell them the truth. It had been self-defense. She needed to take the blame. She needed to tell them the truth.

It had been self-defense. But the police never came. What? No one ever showed up. They sat and they waited. Holy shit. And the police never came. What are the Knob Noster police doing? Yeah.

What are the Knob Noster police doing? Yeah. And Peggy said she sat there and she thought maybe it was a sign from God. Oh, wow. No one needed to know what had happened. Maybe they could cover this up. Where are the police, though? They just never came!

What? Yeah, they just never came! You can't tell me they had something better to do. Absolutely not. We know that there's nothing happening in Knob Noster. Yeah, I have no idea. I have no idea if the dispatchers are like, hey, we got a 911 hang up. Everybody says it's fine, but really an officer needs to go out

to this address. And they were like, yeah, fuck it. Never mind. Like, I'm sure everything's fine. That's exactly what happened. I'm sure that's what happened. And so, yeah, Peggy was like, I think this is a sign from God. I think we can get away with this. She thought maybe no one needs to know what happened in the house that day.

And so they wrapped Javon's body in a white tarp and secured it with rope and they loaded it into the back of a car. Would no one be looking for him? I think that was the thought that maybe no one would be looking for him. Okay. I think that had to at least be some kind of thought. Right. Then they called a friend of Gemma's. His name's Ricky Armstrong and asked him if he could help them dispose of a body. My God. And he said he knew just the place. It was a property in Warrensburg about 20 minutes away. It was known as The Farm. It was essentially a drug house, one that was known.

And a centrally located. Stop it, Kristen. You jerk, now we have to leave that in there. Big Kristen. You jerk. Now we have to leave that in there. It was known to police, but it was really secluded. And it was on a chunk of property.

And so Ricky told Peggy and Gemma that he would bury the body there. They could just bring it on down and he'd take care of it. He'd even dig like three separate holes so they'd never have to know which hole it had gone into. What? Mm-hmm. And they paid him $400 to do it. $400? Yep.

Mm-hmm. Peggy recalled that she prayed that Gemma would be strong enough to keep their secret, that they would take it to their graves and that maybe no one would ever know. But a week later, police received an anonymous tip that Javon Donahue had been shot and killed by his wife and that his body could be found at the farm. Yeah. So the way they described it on the show is that like this area of Warrensburg is really rural. And so like they could see the house that's on this property from the street, but that's all you can see.

So they actually got like, I don't know, a helicopter or something to fly over the property. And when they did that, they were able to see those three areas that had freshly moved earth. And so that was enough to secure a warrant to go search the property. And they very quickly located the body of Javon Donahue. And this was in the rural area of Warrensburg. What did I say? You said it was in the rural area. Did I say it too many times? Is that the joke you're making? No, it's just like the idea of, I like the idea of- Of there being like a city portion of Williamsburg. Listen, anyone from Missouri is going to enjoy that. On April 22nd, 2017, the police brought in Peggy Heffernan for questioning.

So the anonymous tipster had mentioned her by name. So they brought her in and she immediately admitted to what had happened. When she arrived home on the day of the shooting, she recalled how Gemma had called 911 and how – Wait, I thought she wanted to take the fall for this thing. No, she told the truth. You just said she wanted to take the fall for it. And Gemma told her not to. So. OK. Yeah. So she said, you know, how she'd come home and found Gemma and Gemma, you know, had made that call to nine one one. And then she'd asked her, you know, to to tell them nothing was wrong. And so that she had lied. She had said, you know, nothing was wrong when the police had

when the nine one one operator had called back and that they sat there and waited for the police to come. And then when they didn't, they hatched the plan to cover up Javon's death. Why does your face look like that? I would just I would have loved to see the police's face. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, we were waiting for you to come. Mm-hmm.

And you didn't. Yep. So we did this instead. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That same day, Gemma was taken into custody. She was 31 years old at the time. And she immediately confessed to shooting Javon.

She said it was in self-defense. Yeah. She was arrested and charged with second-degree murder. She pled not guilty, and her lawyer, Kansas City-based criminal defense attorney John Peserno, announced that he would be using a battered spouse syndrome defense. Gemma did not deny that she had killed Javon, but she was clear it was in self-defense. At the time, prosecuting attorney Rob Russell was not a fan of on this episode. Why? He's just really a doo-doo head. Ma'am, please.

Please. This show is very popular with children. He said he did not believe that a battered spouse defense had ever been successful in the state of Missouri. Well, that says more about the state of Missouri than it does about anything else. He also made this really cool comment about how a slap to the face is not an excuse to commit murder. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so this is the prosecuting attorney.

Uh-huh, it's the prosecuting attorney. Uh-huh. Yes. Oh, God. Fuck. I mean, people don't have a shot in hell, right? Nope. Yeah. Mm. Fuck. I mean, people don't have a shot in hell, right? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. What happened to Gemma was not a slap to the face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And equating it to that is a slap to her face. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a slap in the face of every abused person. It's fucking terrible. Which, fun fact, slap to the face, not a big deal. Yeah. Gemma's trial began in November of 2018. She was charged with second degree murder, armed criminal action, abandonment of a corpse, unlawful use of a weapon, concealing a felony, and tampering with evidence. Well, could they find anything else to charge her with?

No, I think that was it. At trial, the prosecution argued that Gemma's version of events did not match the injuries to Javon Donahue's body. He was shot four times, just as she had said. But specifically, they said the second shot, which was the one where her hands were up kind of like this, being held by the wrist, and she shot him through the chin into the jaw. So they said that that shot broke his jaw. And that because of that, he would not have been able to say before the final shot, fuck

it, we're going to die together, bitch. And so all of it had to have been a lie. I mean, how do they know? Exactly. I think that's such a nothing thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, they can tell that his jaw's been broken, but, I mean, people do.

When you're in the heat of the moment and your adrenaline is pumping like that. And also he was high on methamphetamine. Oh, that's the other thing. I forgot that. High on methamphetamine. Oh, that's the other thing. I forgot that. The other thing is like your spouse, you understand what they're saying to you.

Absolutely. Yeah. That was basically the prosecution's entire case. That because that shot happened second, according to Gemma, there's no way the rest of her story is plausible because she couldn't have said that or he couldn't have said that to her. Yeah, people don't understand math. No. No. Specifically on this show, the prosecuting attorney says that Romeo and Juliet moment of we're going to die together.

That's not a Romeo. Never happened. OK. That is not a Romeo and Juliet moment, you idiot. Yeah. Yeah. This guy's a fucking doo-doo head. That guy doesn't understand the first thing about domestic violence.

No. And he should not be an attorney. Correct. Actually, he should be a defense attorney for abusers. Yeah. Yeah. The prosecution also argued that Gemma had shown no remorse following the shooting of her husband and that that paired with the coordinated effort to

conceal his death proved that the killing was not in self-defense and was rather instead it was a calculated act but in a self-defense claim you don't have to be like, boo-hoo-hoo, I'm so sad afterward. No. No. In fact, it would be totally normal in this situation to feel relieved that this person is no longer alive. It'd probably be totally normal to feel all kinds of shit. Absolutely. Absolutely. Ma'am.

Everybody, things are happening in my stomach right now. Yes, they are. It does feel like they're moving south. Oh, God. Trying to find an exit. Banging on every door. The defense, however, countered that Jim Adonohue had long been a victim of abuse at the hands of Javon. John Passerno told the court that the abuse Gemma had suffered had been well documented throughout the past decade. He cited a 2012 conviction for domestic assault, which resulted in a 90-day jail sentence for Javon.

He also cited the order of protection that had been filed. Right. And then he had a whole slew of witnesses on the stand who could testify to seeing bruises and have witnessing abuse that Gemma had at the hands of Javon. Well, and the other factor here is that the only other time that she needed the police for help. Well, no, I guess not the only other time.

I'm sure she had other interactions with the police. But that first time, it was horrible. It was horrible. Yep. Yep. The defense also put state-appointed forensic examiner Dr. Lisa Witcher on the stand. So she testified that she had spent some time with Gemma. She examined her.

She, you know, had conversations with her and that she met all of the requirements of a battered spouse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimately, the jury found Gemma Donahue not guilty of second-degree murder, but guilty of voluntary manslaughter, unlawful use of a weapon, tampering with evidence, and abandonment of a corpse. How much time did she get? We'll get there in a minute.

I don't know that I have that kind of time. I don't know that you do either. So Rob Russell, the prosecuting attorney, said... I'm sick of hearing from him. Well, obviously, if they convicted her of voluntary manslaughter,

they didn't buy her self-defense claim. He was very proud of that. Anyway. Good for him. Yep. On Monday, January 18th, 2019, Gemma was back in court for sentencing. There was this pretty tense moment in court when John Pisserno was doing like a recitation of the facts in the case as they, you know, before asking for, you know, whatever

sentence they wanted. And he made a comment about how Javon had played a role in his own death by unlawfully entering the house with a massive amount of methamphetamine in his system. One of Javon's family members who was in court that day did not like that statement and he like stood up and yelled and had to be removed from the courtroom. Yeah. The defense argued for the minimum sentence stating that Jemma had been a victim of abuse since the age of 13 and that it made sense that she didn't call the police because the police had failed her at that young age. Yeah. And that she also held no prior convictions. John Pricerno also said in court that he had been a defense attorney on dozens of homicide cases and that he had never asked for a minimum sentence before now.

never asked for a minimum sentence before now. Rob Russell asked the judge to impose a 15-year concurrent sentence for both the manslaughter and the weapons charges, and then a 20-year consecutive sentence for the armed criminal action, and then a four-year consecutive sentence after that for the tampering with evidence and abandonment of a corpse. So he's wanting like 39 years total. What kind of training does this man have? I don't know the answer to that. Okay.

Rob Russell said she's never shown any remorse. She is only concerned with her own self-interest. Well, it sounds like she was being abused. Yeah, my dude. And her attacker was lying in wait for her at her residence, which he had no right to be at. Was actually barred from being at by a protective order. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Good grief. Mm-hmm. Javon Donahue's mother did speak at the sentencing. She issued a victim impact statement. Her name is Warnetta Donahue. She said that Javon had been taken from her and his family. And she said, we'd like Gemma to be punished for destroying his life and his family. She said that Gemma had never shown remorse and that Javon's death was a senseless act from which the family was still suffering.

I mean, of course they're suffering. They lost their son, their family member. Of course they are. Yeah. Yeah. Judge Bill Collins ultimately sentenced Gemma to 10-year sentences for manslaughter and the weapons charge, and then five years for the criminal action, and four years on the tampering and abandonment charges. But those were all set to run concurrently. So 10 years is what she was sentenced to.

He said that he had listened to the testimony during the trial and that regarding the relationship between Javon and Gemma, everybody decided to stay. Oh. Oh, God. Yep. And then when he gave his reasoning for the 10-year sentence, he said... Oh, my God. More training for everyone, please. He said, somebody died.

Yep. For her part, Peggy was sentenced to 30 days in jail and five years of probation. And Ricky Armstrong, the person they paid to bury Javon's body, he was sentenced to five years of probation as well. Who told? Do you know? I assume someone at the farm. Yeah. Yeah.

But no, they've never said. Okay. Okay. said. Okay. Gemma said on this episode, at the end of this episode, she said, when I first came to prison, my life was in an uproar. She said she didn't trust her parents at that time. She really blamed her mother for what happened. And for what it's worth, the doctor, Dr. Witcher, she said it was the concealing the body is what resulted ultimately in Gemma getting jail time for this most likely or going to prison for this. Had they not done that, likely the jury would have seen this differently. But she said so. Ironically, if the cops had shown up, maybe.

I mean. Yeah. So Gemma said she just like she was she was using drugs at that time. She didn't trust her parents at all. It was just a really hard time. Her life, she said, was in an uproar. She said, but once I started to take advantage of the different programs, she said, I enrolled in a women's empowerment program. I was able to kind of see my prison life in a different light.

It wasn't so much condemnation as much as rehabilitation. In here, I've learned accountability because the fact is, I still made the choices that I made. Wow. And that's the story of a mother's love. I can't believe someone's finding rehabilitation in prison. a mother's love. I can't believe someone's finding rehabilitation in prison. No shit.

Yeah, Gemma gave a lot of credit to the prison systems in this episode because she really believed that Javon was rehabilitated by the prison systems.

She's saying she's being rehabilitated by the prison system. Well, it sounds like her life outside of prison was pretty fucking awful. Absolutely.

Yeah. I guess it depends on what you compare it to. I guess so. Yeah. Well, that was rough. Yes. Okay. I can't do a Brandy case ever again because, like, I did a Brandy case and you did a Brandy case.

And that was just too much. Too much. Got to do something fun and light next time. Now it's time for an ad. That is the end of the ad. And now we're back from the ad. Did you miss us? Yes, you did.

How do you hold it together over there, ma'am? How's the spot where your butthole used to be? I feel like I've got something knock, knock, knocking on heaven's door. Should we take some questions from the Discord? Yeah, but I don't know

how many we can take. No, we'll just take a couple real fast before Kristen explodes. To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And then when we record, we ask for questions and then, you know, we take a few.

Oh, Dead Uncle's Underwear asked, what's the best true crime documentary you've ever seen? Mine's the Paradise Lost series. They are really hard to watch, but they're done very well. But they're done very well. I have learned that my ADHD means that I remember nothing other than that documentary was good. Okay, great. That one was bad. So I can't tell you the best one. Okay, wonderful.

Very sorry. A thousand apologies. Oh, Two Whole New Podcast asks, do you two take notes while the other is talking? Maybe I'm just terrible at names and dates, but I notice both of you are really good at remembering names, dates, and places the other is talking about in their story. So are you really just good at paying attention and storing that info or is note-taking happening? No note-taking is happening during the course of this podcast. No note-taking is happening, but I feel like it's also a learned skill. It is.

Absolutely. Because I remember in the beginning, I would be forgetting your people's names. I'd space out. Yeah. And then be like, shit, I'm the only one in this room right now. I have to react. I have to listen to this. I need to be engaged.

Yeah. So, I mean, it's active listening. It is active listening. For sure. Also, it's fun when we catch the other one messing up, and you can't catch them if you're not paying attention. That's 100% correct. Oh, this is a great question. Okay.

When I was a district manager, that is rude. Anyway. That's someone's name. Kristen. It says Kristen. I just rewatched the Patreon bonus video where you gave Norm a quarantine haircut. Behind you, above a fireplace, is a painting I need to know more about. I see ninja cats.

I see sushi. I need to know more. What is this ninja cats. I see sushi. I need to know more. What is this? Where did it come from? Okay, that is a obviously custom job. What you saw there is a gigantic painting done by one of Norm's friends' wives who lives in Elizabeth City. She's a tattoo artist. I can't remember her name. But she did that for Norm. And it's Kiki and Boo surrounded by sushi. Yeah, it's wonderful. It's beautiful.

It really is. But weird that you weren't focused on the amazing haircut that I was giving my husband in that video. Ooh, Doop. D-O-O-P. Doop. haircut that I was giving my husband in that video. Ooh. Doop. D-O-O-P. Doop. Wants to know

you've had an incredibly long day. What is your go-to drink? You have a go-to cocktail? I almost shortened that to cock. And then I was like, not a word you can shorten. Changes the meaning dramatically. Just snort it.

Okay, this is the lamest fucking answer. Okay. But just this week in particular, I don't know what it is. I don't know what it is. Yeah. But after a long, hard day, all I want to do is get on the couch, put on an old season of Survivor. I've seen it, but again, don't remember it. Right. I never remember who wins anything.

Curl up with a Gatorade Zero, the blue flavor. And I have really enjoyed it. I do like Gatorade Zero. Okay, non-alcoholic. Mine is Cream Soda Zero. My favorite. God, these are really dorky selections. It is super dorky.

Alcoholic. I have a new favorite cocktail. I've been drinking it. What's your favorite cock? Tell us all about it. On the reg. Sprite Zero with Diet Cranberry Juice and Grey Goose. Ooh.

It's like a 100-calorie cocktail, and it's so fucking good. Yeah, that sounds really good. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I just crack open a seltzer and throw a little vodka in there. I mean, it's no Gatorade Zero. I'll tell you that for sure. Ooh, Miss Danielle wants to know, you often talk about how Brandy is like Norm.

Are there ways in which Kristen is like David? Absolutely. David and Kristen are very similar. They're ways in which Kristen is like David? Absolutely. David and Kristen are very similar. They're both very quick-witted. Sexy. Very sexy, yes. Bald.

You are not bald. No, but you guys have so many similarities in your wit. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right.

Well, that was a great list of similarities. There are so many things that was a great list of similarities. There are so many things, but they're like nuanced things. It's really one of those things where I feel like you really see the similarities when we go on a double date. Absolutely. Because I'll be like trying to make fun of Norman for something. Or no, the last time we were all together, I was trying to make fun of you for something. And Norm's like, I would react the exact same way.

And David was like, no, if I'm with you. And David was like, what the fuck? No, Kristen, I'm with you. Yeah, so it's kind of that energy. What are you laughing at? Sad Asset asked, Brandy, is London a one and done baby or could there be a Paris, Cairo or Tokyo? I'm done having babies.

I'm pretty sure. I'm like 98% sure. I'm fucking old to have more babies. And London's just perfect. So why tempt fate? I think I get a little demon child. My next one. London has been the easiest kid since she was born.

She slept through the night at three weeks old. She's never been a fussy child. Like, she is easy. There's no way I would get an easy child the second time around. And also, my pregnancy was super easy. My delivery was not. I am not. I have no interest in going through that again, honestly.

Sure. Yeah. I don't know. You might have another easy baby because, like, you don't wash off your makeup at night and you've got good skin, so maybe life is just unfair for you. Bidets in schools, that's Brandy.

How sorry are you for being mad? I mean, to Josh Mankiewicz, I'm very sorry and I feel very badly about it. Yeah? Yeah. I'm very sorry. Oh, I have been wanting to talk to you about this for a while. Okay.

Talk about a sticky situation. Ma'am, are you listening? I am. Okay, you're scrolling. Talk about a sticky situation asks, I was making my way through the Patreon episodes while you were on break and in one you talk about Sister Wives. Do you still guilty pleasure watch it? I mean, it is imploding. Yeah. I mean, I am not one bit surprised. Like, I, that is not a sustainable life model.

I'm just telling you. Like, I don't understand how they thought it would work. Yeah, good for them. Good for Christine and good for Janelle for getting the fuck out of there. Yeah. I'm pleased as punch for them. Christine just announced that she's dating someone exclusively. Just saw that on TikTok this morning.

Okay. Just saw that on TikTok this morning. Okay, the other day when we got together with Jesse and Amanda, we had one of those weird moments where Amanda revealed that she has like gone down a rabbit hole of Sister Wives TikTok drama videos. That's what I've done too. I haven't watched the show in years. Neither have I. But the algorithm knows that I want to know all about these fucking sister wives and Cody and his hair. I'm mad at TikTok right now.

I actually deleted TikTok, but you go. TikTok's algorithm somehow pegged me. What? As a right winger. And I have had to not interested, not interested, not interested. A whole slew of fucking anti-Biden videos the last two days. What do you think? What do you think did it?

I have no. That's what I've been trying to figure out. Like, what did I interact with that has led me down this very distressing path? OK, I've got a similar story. I noticed that I am getting ads for these fucking shoes for people with bunions. This is not a laughing matter. It's funny. Are they the square toe ones? Yes.

I got that too. I think maybe they just amped their budget up and they're just advertising them to everyone now. Well, honestly, I kind of hope so because I was like, what the fuck? Why am I being... You're 37. Oh, my God. It's about time to be taking care of your bunions, Kristen.

What even are bunions? It's just like the joint, like the big toe joint, like bulges out. I mean, I probably do have bunions. Yeah, you should probably go ahead and order a pair. Okay. All right. Hot asthmatic Subaru cat owner wants to know, Brandy, if you had to choose between Kristen farting in your mouth or cutting off all of your toes, which would you pick? Well, fucking obviously Kristen farting in my mouth.

I mean, I wouldn't like it, but it's just temporary. My toes aren't going to grow back. Okay, but what about like right now? Where I'm telling you, I think it's a fart. Okay, but your pants are on, right? Are you farting bare butted in my mouth? Absolutely. Oh, God, that is...

I'm still keeping my toes. I'll take the risk. A wise choice, my friend. Ooh, Cinnamon Toast Bitch wants to know, Kristen, how are the kitties? Not your tits. Boo and Kiki. How are they? They're very good.

Okay, great. Why did you make that face? I don't know. Honestly, I was thinking about my titties. I know you were. Do you want to talk about your titties? How are your titties, Kristen? Huge. Okay, everyone. That is the real answer. Your titties are huge. I still don't believe it. All right.

At the end of the last episode, I was complaining because my bra, as per usual, was bugging the shit out of me. The band was all loosey-goosey, uncomfortable as hell. And since I work from home, I rarely put on an actual bra. I'm, like, strapping myself into a sports bra. But even then, I don't feel like those fit me very well. So Brandy very condescendingly told me that I should get fitted for a bra. Well, I fucking hate bra shopping. I hate it, hate it, hate it.

And so I was like, you know what? I'm just going to look it up online. I'm going to do it myself. The hub stepped in to give me aid in my time of measured your titties boobie need yeah and everyone um my boobs are fucking huge huge yep take all bitties everyone nice on you. Thank you. I was wearing a 36 double D. According to these measurements and according to the

calculations that I ran multiple times because I was like, this can't be right. This couldn't possibly be true. I'm a 34 G, my friends. G, they look good? G, that's a lot of tips. No wonder your bra's not working. You know, you got to get.

OK, the support comes from the band. So no wonder. I know. You're wearing the wrong band size. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. I'm still not convinced.

Anyway, everyone stay tuned because the bras are supposed to arrive tomorrow. If if someone comes to the porch and steals these bras, I'm going to lose my mind because there's no way another 34G is out there. You know how hard that was to find? Anyway, not really that hard. Just online. So anyway, I'm quite excited. We'll stay tuned for next week when we can find out. I can't really be a 34G.

I bet you are. Do you think so? Yeah. It makes sense. Because you're wearing a band size two, size is too big, essentially, and two cups too small. So that makes sense. And that thing was just wiggling around.

I bet they're going to be so perky. I hope so. I have noticed like in the last year, it's like there's a downward spiral happening. Also, I complained about how I was afraid to get a mammogram, and everyone's coming forward acting like mammograms are the most fun they've had in a long time. This is no big deal. It's a great time. No, I will get my mammogram, but the most fun they've had in a long time. This is no big deal. It's a great time. No, I will get my mammogram, but I will not like it.

I'm not going to like it one bit. I'm not going to look forward to it. Oh, what if I, oh, okay. What if I get myself like a little treat afterwards? Absolutely. Take yourself to Andy's. Get yourself a custard. No, I want a much bigger treat than that. What kind of treat do you want? I don't know. You want a whole cake? What do you

mean? You want bigger in size or like bigger in level? You want a shopping? You want to buy yourself a new pair of jeans? Oh, you know what I should do? Well, but no. Oh, what? I was thinking as a reward, what would be really fun is to get a cookie cake and some edibles, and then I go down to my basement. Yeah, go to fucking town on that. But honestly, I'll be like, well, I've got cancer now. There's something about as soon as I get the mammogram done, it's like, okay, now I wait to find out that I have cancer. Kristen! Just telling you. Just telling you. And it's like, okay, now I wait to find out that I have cancer. Kristen!

Just telling you. Just telling you. Great. I mean, should we end the questions there or do we need another one to bring it back up? I don't know because now I'm thinking about cancer. I mean, I've really thought about this a lot because I was like, well, I guess if I do have cancer, it'll be good to tell. Just for the record, you're not getting a mammogram because someone has told you you probably have cancer. Just to be clear. But I'm already there.

But I'm already there. And I was thinking, well, I guess if I do have it, I can tell everyone on the podcast, like, hey, go get a mammogram. Then maybe someone will go do it and, you know, save a life before I inevitably die. Kristen! I am just letting you know. That's what I was thinking. Oh, Lord. What a journey that was.

Or who knows? Maybe these wings and iced coffee will take me out first. Maybe. How are you feeling over there? I mean, here's the weird thing. You feel all right right now? I feel all right. But my stomach says otherwise. It is like

screaming. Yeah. But I'm convinced that if I just have a Gatorade Zero, I'm going to be fine. I don't know, man. I've heard some things. Should we do some Supreme Court inductions before you explode? We probably should.

To get inducted, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. We are continuing to read your names and your first celebrity crush. Hannah Helmuth. Will Friedle

in Boy Meets World. Boy Meets World. That's Eric Matthews I'm okay It's Corey's older brother I don't remember him Oh wait No dude Did he have kind of

The floppy hair No Yes he had floppy hair Oh yeah He was Middle part Yeah absolutely Very very hot

Alright Yeah Kathy Usher What song is that? That's not a real song. They call me U-S-H-E-R-R-A-Y-M-O-N-D. Let's move on.

To Jen. John Cusack from some dumb 80s movie called One Crazy Summer. I don't think I've ever seen that. I know John Cusack, though, obviously. Kristen has no idea who John Cusack is. No, I do. Yeah, I know. He's from that thing.

Alyssa. On top of his head. Oh, great job. That is him. Don't condescend to me. I'll be dead in a minute. Dylan Sprouse from The a minute. Stop it. Dylan Sprouse from The Suite Life.

Not Cole. His twin brother. Let's exactly love him. Kirby Patterson. Edward Furlong as John Connor in Terminator. He's the one who let the lobsters out at the grocery store. He probably shouldn't have done that. Unless you're a lobster, then you probably

feel like he should have done that. Maybe. Lino Camilo. What? What? What are the... Till Schweiger in Tromshew Surprise. I don't know any of those words.

I know surprise. I was surprised by that answer. Dog and plant lady. Devin Sawa. Casey. Charlie Hunnam. Hunnam. He's from Sons of Anarchy.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, the main guy. Okay. Megan Johnson. Fred Savage. Emily Curl. Christian Bale from Newsies. Charlotte Elsasser.

Heath Ledger. Specifically, 10 Things I Hate About You, Heath Ledger. Kristen was in love with him as well. A Knight's Tale was my sexual awakening. Sarah Bray. Eminem. Natalie. Andrew, former child star, crunchy hair, curly tendrils, 90s heartthrob, Keegan.

Now, cult leader. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Supreme Court! Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow! Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow! Wow! Did you know, have we talked about Andrew Keegan's cult and how they made kombucha? They make kombucha?

Yeah, they got like shut down because they weren't making kombucha, which was too high. Like the alcohol content was too high. Personally, I think anyone making kombucha should be shut down. I actually looked into it to see if there was a lawsuit and there like wasn't quite enough for me to make an episode of it. But I really wanted to. Plus that would be really outside of your zone. Absolutely. No one's been murdered in a kombucha vat, right? Not that we know of.

What if I uncover it? Well, that would be quite the case. It would be. Anyway, thank you everyone for all of your support. We've got to wrap it up because Kristen's butthole is, well, it's in my pocket, but where it used to be is about to spew hot something. You're disgusting.

Yeah, I'm disgusting. You're absolutely disgusting. You never say anything like this ever on the podcast. Absolutely not. I'm a very classy woman absolutely disgusting. You never say anything like this ever on the podcast. Absolutely not. I'm a very classy woman. We appreciate all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then also subscribe to The Gaming Historian over on YouTube. Subscribe or subscribe. What did I say? Subscribe? Subscribe. Oh, whatever. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review.

And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new podcast topics. Oh, my God. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes

Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the voice in the lake episode of cold case files, the mystery in the swamp episode of Cold Case Files, the Mystery in the Swamp episode of People Magazine Investigates, and reporting from the Tallahassee Democrat. I got my info from the episode of I Am a Killer, KSHB 41 News, Fox 4 News, John Anthony Passerno's website, and the Kansas City Star. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Sorry, it's like I've never done this before.

Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff. No, I got thrown off because I forgot to cite John Becerno's, like, press release. Honestly, it was a disaster. It was. I apologize.