Let's Go To Court! - 246: Toilets & the Red Sash Murderer

Episode Date: March 15, 2023

Hank Robar is not one to be messed with. So when he got into a dispute with village officials in  his hometown of Potsdam, New York, he got even by decorating his property with toilets. Over the years, Hank added more toilets. He decorated the bowls and tanks with artificial flowers. He put so much time and energy into the toilets that he began referring to them as “toilet gardens,” and later, as “art.” Town officials were not amused. They did everything in their power to stop him.  Then Brandi tells us about the death of Josephine Galbraith. For Josephine’s family, her death was sad, but not shocking. The 76-year-old woman suffered from chronic back pain. She’d recently been diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease. She’d told her husband and children that she didn’t want to continue living. But when Josephine died in an apparent suicide, a detective on the scene suspected she’d been murdered.    And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The documentary, “Potty Town” “Hank Robar: The man behind Potsdam’s toilet gardens,” by Sydney Schaefer for NNY360 “Potsdam agrees to toilet garden lawsuit settlement,” by Tom Graser for NNY360 “Owner of Potsdam toilet gardens, village reach undisclosed settlement in federal lawsuit,” by Sydney Schaefer for NNY360 “Robar v. Village of Potsdam Board of Trustees,” casetext.com “How 5Pointz artists won $6.75 million in lawsuit against developer that destroyed their work,” by Jessica Meiselman for artsy.net In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Red Sash Death” episode Accident, Suicide, or Murder “Digging Up Buried Bones” by Loren Stein, MetroActive “’He Would Have Done Anything For Her': Family Fights To Prove Father's Innocence After Mom's Suicide Leads To His Arrest” by Sharon Lynn Pruitt, Oxygen “$400,000 settlement in wrongful charge” by John Coté, SF Gate “Santa Clara County to pay $400,000 to Palo Alto family” by Howard Mintz, The Mercury News “Galbraith v. County of Santa Clara” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 40+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about toilets. And I'll be talking about the red sash murderer.

That seems stupid because you cannot murder a red sash. Oh! Is it a ribbon dancer murder? It's a ribbon dancer murder, yes a ribbon dancer murder yes christian i fucking loved ribbon dance yes absolutely i had one of those yeah so we've had this conversation i know we have a podcast it's an olympic sport they call it rhythmic gymnastics it's one of the events. But we know what it is. It's ribbon dancing. It's ribbon dancing all around. Do you remember the commercials for that?

Do I remember? Yes. Ribbon dancing is the only choreo I can do. The one we had, which was technically Casey's, but I played with it many a time. Mine was technically Kyla's. Purple in color. What color was yours? But was it in spirit?

We were both ribbon dancing. If only you could see us. We were ribbon dancing. Why don't we own ribbon dancers? I don't know. Kristen, I owe you an apology. Oh, bring it on, you skanky bitch. What?

Last week on the podcast, you made a hilarious joke, and I didn't catch it in the moment because – No way. You didn't get a joke that I made? No, I didn't. It's not that I didn't get it. I didn't catch it because you made the joke because I fumbled my words, and I was too busy fumbling my words to catch the joke. Okay. Okay. I was trying to say misappropriating funds, but I couldn't get it out, and so then i changed it to embezzlement and

so i said miss embezzlement and you said that's mrs embezzlement wow and so that may be the funniest joke that's ever been on this podcast and i gave you zero credit no brandy your rice a goni joke that was pure gold. Solid gold. Brandi, I thank you very much because a small part of me died inside when you did not laugh at my Mrs. Embezzlement joke. Mrs. Embezzlement.

That's why I love her. See, now you've empowered me and that can be a dangerous thing. It's very dangerous. Brandi, how you doing? I'm doing wonderful. How are you doing? Oh, you know, I'm popping. And locking.

What does that mean? Popping and locking, folks. I don't know. I just rip and dance. Sorry, I was trying to check what date this episode will come out on to see if we should mention our live show one more time. And should we mention our live show? We should mention it one more time. Hey, should we be like my dad on Facebook?

Yeah, post the wrong date for it. Everyone, my dad is trying to be supportive, trying to tell people to come see our live show in Kansas City at Comic-Con. Fun fact, we are performing Friday night, March 17th. At 8 p.m. But if you ask my dad... It's March 18th, which is not correct. You can get your tickets at... PlanetComicCon.com

I love how you started that and you lost steam so fast. You can get your tickets at... You can get your tickets at a comic... You can get your tickets, period. It's a ticketed event. Yes, at planetcomicon.com you can get a ticket. All you need is a Friday ticket and that gets you into our show. You should come see us, please. We're going to cover the Key West Corpse Bride.

I'm worried that I will just sit there like a corpse the whole time. You're not going to cover the Key West Corpse Bride. I'm worried that I will just sit there like a corpse the whole time. You're not going to. I'll bring a ribbon dancer. Oh, excellent. Just ribbon dance next to me the whole time. Don't say excellent. That would be terrible. Can you imagine?

It would be like two kinds of shows. Yeah. Can you wear something? Could you get nipple tassels? Could I get nipple tassels? What, do you have a whole collection get nipple tassels? Could I get nipple tassels? What, do you have a whole collection of nipple tassels? That's none of your business. You just clip them onto your nipple hair.

Oh, that is rude. That's called. What is that when, like, they braid in the. What are you talking about? An extension? Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I'm glad we held for that woo anyway come see our live show please

don't sound desperate hey it's cool it's whatever it's whatever we don't even care yeah we don't even care if you come no we care please come alright and also things we don't care we don't care if you didn't come. No, we care. Please come. All right. And also, things we don't care. We don't care if you sign up for our Patreon.

I care. Please sign up for our Patreon if you'd like to support the show. Oh, wow. Is it a good cop, bad cop thing? Is that what we're doing? All right. I'm the best in the biz. I'm going to push you up against the wall.

I'll say sign up for our Patreon. You get bonus episodes every month. That's right. We got 45 bonus episodes. Is that right? 44, 45. Oh, shit. Are we recording a bonus episode next Monday?

We sure are. Good God. We're just boss babes, everyone. That's right. Boss ass bitches, actually, is what we are. I bought some new nail polish this week. Uh-huh. And I bought it despite the name of the color.

What was the name of the color? It was called, like, Boss Gloss or something. Boss Gloss. I don't remember that. I liked it. It was a pale pink. I had no choice. Dee-dee-dee-dee-dee-dee.

This just in. We have 44 bonus episodes on Patreon. Oh, great. Great. So, yeah, if you want bonus episodes, we also do a monthly Zoom call. Woo!

Sign up for it, baby. Do it. For as little as $5 a month. Well, no. If you want to get on the Zoom call, that's $7.

$7 for the Zoom call. Okay, you think you're getting that for $5? You're so wrong. We even got a $10 level if you're feeling spendy. And with that, you get you're getting that for $5? You're so wrong. We even got a $10 level if you're feeling spendy. And with that, you get ad-free episodes, and you get them.

A day early. Boom! Plus 10% off merch, plus all kinds of other shit. That's right! We don't have time. There's no time! There's never any time! I'm so excited!

I'm so excited! It's amazing that we have time for this. I'm so scared. I'm so excited. It's amazing that we have time for this. I'm so scared. Okay. But you know what else we've got to do? Oh, shit. Where's my ad copy? I don't know, but I have mine up because I am better than you.

Doodle-oo, time for an ad. Doodle-oo. Time for an ad. Doodle-oo. This is the end of the ad. We're back from the ad. Wow. What a perfect sponsor for this. You should segue into a toilet case. Why do you look upset, Brandi?

I'm not upset at all. I can't wait to hear about toilets. What's happening with them? Somebody gets stuck in a toilet. I hear people are shitting in them. Wow. People are animals these days. That's right.

No one suggested this. There's a documentary called Potty Town, and I just could not help myself. That's a real thing. It's a real thing, my friend. Okay, so most of this comes from the documentary Potty Town. Excellent. But also I had to, excuse me, got to sign up for, you may have seen the email come through. I did see an email come through.

Uh-huh, I had to subscribe to a pretty niche publication. I was wondering what the fuck that was. It's NNY 360. It's Northern New York newspapers. Okay. Okay, so that's where I got some of the local reporting for this. Very important, hard-hitting story. Okay.

Wait, are you going to tell us that this is a light case? Yeah, this actually is a light case. This is legitimately a light case. Unlike my other light cases that somehow mention the Holocaust. Okay, I was going to say, first of all, no Nazi mentions. Believe it or not, Nazis don't even factor into this story. Okay, great. I'm so happy to hear that.

Brandy, I have come here today to tell you a tale about local politics, revenge, and gently used toilets. How gently used are they? Not gently enough, I'll tell you that. Our story centers around Fred Hank Robar. He goes by Hank, which is not short for Fred. Do you want to hear how he got the nickname? You know I do. You know what? I took it out because I didn't think it's all right. I knew you'd be interested. This is the dumbest way anyone's ever gotten a nickname.

Can't wait. Okay. When he was a kid, he loved milk, right? He just drank so much milk. Tons and tons of milk. Okay. And so his friend joked that they needed to get a tank. I knew it was going to be Hank the Tank. Yeah. I 100% knew that's where that was going. Okay, that's... And so they called him Hank the Tank because he drank a lot of milk.

Right. And that got shortened to Hank. Yeah. That's wonderful. He's like 80 and he still calls him Hank. Yeah. How did you know? I don't know.

All right. Hank was born and raised in the small, very cute town of Potsdam, New York. He was the oldest of nine children. His mom ran a taxi company. His dad worked construction. Eventually in 1960, he and his dad opened a little gas station. And unfortunately, that same year, Hank's dad passed away. His mom passed away in 1986. But you know, what happened to the gas station when his dad died? I believe. Well, no, I don't believe. I know because I was there.

No, Hank continued working. He worked crazy long hours at the gas station. You know, anyway, we're getting there. I'm so sorry. Keep your pants on. I know it's a toilet story, but please, please. I've got them down around my ankles right now. I've got a newspaper ready to go. I can't believe you're even joking about that.

It's because the people know. There's not a chance in hell my pants are pulled down right now. And if they were somehow pulled down for a comedic effect, I would have another pair of pants on. There was a time when we couldn't even joke about you having your pants off on this podcast because you were like, just the thought that someone might think that I'm podcasting without pants on was too much. It is too much. But people know. The people know.

What's with that mole on your thigh? I don't have a mole on my thigh. Thank you. I've got a mole on my thigh. I have a birthmark on my thigh. Can you describe it? It's a little birthmark. That's not descriptive at all. It doesn't look like Abraham Lincoln or anything.

Why Abraham Lincoln? I don't know. It's the first thing that popped in my head. You want to know something weird? Yeah. Mine looks like John Wilkes Booth. Stop it! That's the best thing you've ever said?

What are the chances? I ask you. So Hank stayed in Potsdam. He did very well there. He eventually sold the gas station and started buying up property. Property after property after property. What was he doing with these properties? I'm getting real Monopoly vibes from it, I'll be honest.

No, so at one point he owned 41 properties. He said he would fix them up and rent them out. Okay. Worth noting, Potsdam is located in the tippy top of New York. Like in that little like blue part at the top? Yeah, so it's up in the tippity top. Okay. And it's an intentionally adorable town.

What does that mean, intentionally adorable? What do you think I mean by intentionally adorable? Cute little houses, little cute like downtown square area. All right. And I'm talking like it didn't happen by accident. They have like a really specific town code type of thing that's happening. Maybe they do. Okay.

They've got a lot to be proud of, Brandy. They invented the milk bottle, which invented the milk bottle. I mean, that was going to happen anyway. I hate to tell you. That was a bitchy thing to say. You sound like fucking Mark Wahlberg. I sounded like Mark Wahlberg? Yeah, if I was there, I would have invented the milk bottle.

Wouldn't have gone down that way. Everyone, if you're confused by that, we do have a bonus episode about Mark Wahlberg. And if you don't want to pay to listen, just look up what he said after 9-11. You know, ooh, if he'd been on those planes, it would have gone down differently. It wouldn't have gone down that way. Okay, great. Anyway, they invented the milk bottle, okay? And that's nothing to sneeze at.

To sneeze at. The people of Potsdam are also very proud of their red Potsdam sandstone. Oh. And they should be. It's gorgeous. They have a church made out of it. It's really cool looking. Okay.

It's like reddish, orangish. Uh-huh. Very unique. The buildings on Market Street. Shut your face. Beautiful. Brick buildings, arched doorways, the works. Potsdam is up to its ass in charm.

Is it? Yes. What do you mean, is it? Yes. But it wasn't always this way. In the 70s, the town went through a big urban renewal project, which was aimed at getting rid of tacky-ass neon signs and, you know, anything unattractive. The aim was to make Potsdam look like a Victorian village.

And they succeeded. Of course, that did come at a cost. One of the journalists who was interviewed for this documentary said that the urban renewal project attracted a ton of tax-free property to the point that now 70% of the village is tax-free property. What? Yup. And as a result, the residents of Potsdam pay very high property taxes. Yeah, because not enough people are paying it. Mm-hmm.

Anyway, the important thing is that everything looks really nice. Okay. Can we agree? Sure. What's Hank got to do with it? What's Hank got to do, got to do with it? Well, I just told you Hank owns a ton of properties. Does he own the part that are not paying property taxes?

No. Okay. He pays his taxes. How dare you? All right. Excuse me. I think we're talking tax-free. I'm thinking it's more like colleges and, you know, churches.

You know, church is chicken. Church is chicken. I'm pretty sure. Wouldn't that be a hilarious loophole? So Potsdam is only home to about 15,000 people. But, you know, it's a college town. It's home to Clarkson University and SUNY Potsdam. So when school is in session, the population always shoots up.

And, you know, it's a pretty good place to own rental property. Oh, yeah. Is it all coming together now getting it okay but the town's not gonna like how hank is keeping up his rental properties hmm no this is about toilets yeah how do toilets factor into this i don't know brandy i i think this is a fun game knowing what you know now how are toilets going toilets factor into this, Brandi? I don't know. Brandi, I think this is a fun game. Knowing what you know now, how are toilets going to factor into this? Oh, she's too much of a coward to take a guess. I can tell she's shaking her head. He's making toilet planters in all of the yards of his property.

What happened was he got a really good deal on toilets. Couldn't pass it up. Truckload of toilets. Practically giving them away. What's he supposed to really good deal on toilets. Uh-huh. Couldn't pass it up. He got a truckload of toilets. Uh-huh. Practically giving them away. What, is he supposed to throw them away? Exactly. So he made a planter in each yard of his properties that he owns, and the town doesn't like it, even though they have beautiful flowers inside of them.

How beautiful would the flowers have to be for you? They'd have to be really fucking beautiful. All right, let's see if you're right, Brandy. Over the years, Hank sold off quite a bit of his property. And whether this was because of taxes or just because he wanted to not own a million properties, I'm not sure. But the bottom line is that in 2004, Hank was thrilled to discover that one of his favorite business establishments wanted to buy some of his property. What establishment? Well, he's a man living on the east coast, up north. So of course, I am referring to Dunkin' Donuts.

Oh, okay. All right. All right. Dunkin's. The good folks at Dunkin' Donuts, who are great at making donuts but terrible at making coffee, wanted to purchase it. I think that's blasphemy. Those East Coasters love their Dunkin' Coffee. I know. I know.

And when I lived on the East Coast, I was like, what is wrong with these people? How do they think this is good? They love that shit. It's like when you go to Norway and they're all eating the salted black licorice. I mean, it's probably how people feel about the Midwest when they see us eating cottage cheese. It probably is. Should we make the people jealous of our special treat that Norm gave us while we were recording? Does this count as a special treat?

Yeah, this is a fucking special treat. Brandi, what are we drinking today? We have A&W Zero Sugar Root Beers. Woo. Woo. They are tasty, but I am afraid I'm going to burpp on the podcast being the first time that's ever it does feel a little like we're in fifth grade and we're like yeah it's a special tree yes we got to bring a soda to class oh my god that. Yes! On Friday reading days? Yes. That was so cool. Yes!

But you couldn't really keep them cold, so it was like a lukewarm. No, it was room temperature surge. Didn't matter. So good. Remember, surge was so popular. And corn nuts. Corn nuts, yeah. People loved surge and corn nuts.

Yep. Bust a nut. All right. That was their slogan for five minutes. That's disgusting. Before someone was like, hey, okay, easy now, corn nuts. All right, fifth graders are eating this. So anyway, Dunkin' Donuts.

They wanted to purchase 82 and 84 Market Street. That was kind of his little plot. Hank says they offered him $650,000 for that property. Is that fair market value? Let me adjust that for inflation first. Okay. Sorry. Okay. It's over a million dollars, baby. Okay. That sounds like a lot because we are in the Midwest.

I would argue that that's probably not that much on the East Coast, but I don't know. Why are you mad about this already? I'm not mad. I'm just saying, was that a good enough offer? Well, I don't know. Did he take it? I don't know if it was a good offer. It's a town of 15,000 people.

All right. You know. Anyway. And I mean, when I say this land, it's like he's got a garage on it. Like there's nothing there. Okay. Alright. Did he take the offer?

Oh, I wasn't going to mention that. Jesus. Hank was thrilled. He was like, absolutely I will sell this. There was just one problem. Those lots were in the B2 zone. The fuck's that mean? Obviously, what that means is that you could put a business there, but it had to be a certain type of business, kind of a business light situation, like offices or like a salon that's like clearly inside a house, you know,

that kind of thing. All right. Not a drive-thru Dunkin' Donuts. Exactly. Just a walk-up Dunkin' Donuts. What about like a cute, okay, what about like a cutesy little Dunkin' Donuts? You know how they make like little cutesy versions? Yeah, it's going to have to be cutesy, but for this to be what they want it to be, it's

going to have to be rezoned. Oh, Lord. Okay. Alright, well that's going to take some time because I don't feel like Potsdam is going to want to rezone that thing. Hank's property actually butted right up against the B1 zone. Oh, no. I'm sorry.

That's a familiar feeling. I hate when things are butting up against my B1 zone. Exit only is what she shouts. Chafes. As you might imagine, B1 is nothing she shouts. Chafes. As you might imagine, B1 is nothing like business light. It's more like business full throttle extreme.

Oh, I thought you were going to say like business max. Yeah. What's the opposite of light? Oh, wow. I was going to say heavy. Business heavy! Stupid. Patty, cut that. No, Patty. Leave it in. Leave it in. Business heavy. So Hank figured, no big deal.

I'll just go through all the official channels. Bing, bang, boom. I'll get my lots rezoned as B1. And I'll sell those lots to Dunkin' Donuts. And all of our cups will overfloweth with that weak-ass coffee. Great. Well, except he ran into some trouble. Yeah, they don't want to rezone it.

How are you acting like you're a part of this story, like you're in the neighborhood? You're like, yeah, I know. Yeah, we don't want to fucking dunk in here. We are a quaint little town with majestic shops. Okay, but they have a Five Guys, like, right next to this lot. Really? Yeah.

Okay, well, that argument's stupid. Yeah, so you have to get all this shit approved through the local government, and it was kind of a good old boys club. And evidently Hank was not the goodest boy. One of the village trustees was this woman, Helen Brower, and she was very opposed to changing Hank's property from B2 to B1. She told the media, I don't think B1 is the answer. It opens the door to a lot of nasty things. And if you're wondering why this mattered so much to her, you might be interested to know that she lived right next door to the property that Hank wanted to sell to Dunkin' Donuts.

Yeah, I wouldn't want a Dunkin' Donuts next door either. No. I'd just be eating donuts constantly. No, it'd be terrible to live right next door. Traffic, yes, it'd be terrible. Also, I bet it smells pretty good, though. No, I'd be terrible to live right now. Yes, it'd be terrible. But... Also, I bet it smells pretty good, though. No, I bet it smells amazing. Yeah.

And how convenient. You can get munchkins whenever you want. Well, now you're starting to sell me on this idea. Okay, but what are your thoughts? No, I don't want to dunk a donut next door to my house. That's not what I was about to ask. If you're a village trustee, should you be the one helping make this decision? Oh.

Brandy wants to say yes. Yes, this is why I'm here, to make these decisions. No, it's probably a conflict of interest. It's absolutely a conflict of interest. She didn't think so. Eventually, she did recuse herself from voting, but I mean, it was after some pushback. It didn't matter, though. Hank's zoning request got denied.

Did they stamp it with a big red stamp? Yeah, it's like the movies. Duh. Hank was annoyed. Frankly, it seemed kind of personal. Other people were able to get their lots rezoned. Were they selling them to businesses, like right next to other people's houses? Brandy, for example, when this well-connected dude wanted to get his lots rezoned, the board approved him and yada, yada, yada.

That's how the town of Potsdam got a beautiful new Taco Bell. Did somebody live right next door to Taco Bell? I don't know. But here's the thing. There's literally a five guys like right across from the lot. And so, yeah, it's like, what? Your fucking face. Don't say that about my face!

Everyone, she's wearing glasses, and she seems so much more smug today. Okay, you know what? So I got new glasses, got an eye exam, got a new prescription after, like, five years, got new glasses. I wore them to the salon the other day, and my sister goes, oh, you look so smart with those on. Yeah. I said, I don so smart with those eyes. Yeah. I said, I don't want to look smart.

Do I look cute? Oh, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard. And she said, yeah, you look all right. Anyway, so what was your smug ass saying to me? Well, okay, are we comparing apples to apples? Is the Taco Bell next to someone's home? Because I get the argument. me well okay if are we comparing apples to apples is it is there really is there a bit is the taco bell next to someone's home because i get the argument i don't want to dunk in donuts next to my house either but if there is a five guys across the street then you already have five guys across

the street what's a little dunkin next to you gonna hurt i think a dunkin would hurt a lot because those people up in the northeast are nuts about their dunkin donuts it would be pandemonium i'm totally with this helen lady yeah although technically i don't think she should have been part of that decision because it's a clear conflict of interest but but yeah i don't want to live next to a dunkin donuts no anyway did you get the shirt from amazon Anyway. Did you get this shirt from Amazon?

Yes. How did you? I really like it. Thank you. I just assumed that you're, you know, you've been branching out. You've been trying to find some new shirts. It's cute. Way to tell everyone that I'm buying stuff on Amazon, which is basically the devil.

I'm sorry. I know it's terrible. We could cut this out and nobody has to hear it. I'll let him know. I've disappointed myself. So fucking convenient. I know. Just bending right over for the devil.

That's how it feels. It is how it feels. just bending right over for the devil that's how it feels it is how it feels and you know bending right over in my sweet new shirt and only my new shirt yeah that's all you got on yeah unlike you you got on two pairs of pants and embarrassment of riches over there and you don't even have a single pair of pants. Not a pant to be found. By the way, like a year later, Dunkin' Donuts did put in a location in Potsdam. It was just down the road from the lot that Hank had tried to get rezoned. Nice. Yeah. Interestingly, Hank's lot only had a garage on it, but the lot where they put the new Dunkin' Donuts had a trailer park on it. So the 20 families who lived in the trailer park had to leave.

And it seems that they didn't get a ton of advance notice to perhaps fight this thing and all that. But, you know, oh, well. Yeah. That sounds like a much bigger lot. How big was this Dunkin' Donuts? Hank kept going, kept living his life, which included chilling with his three poodles. He had three poodles? Yeah, they're really cute.

Like standard poodles? What do you mean? Like big poodles? Full-size poodles? Little poodles. Toy poodles. All right. God all right god i listen i get my dogs from shelters okay i need to know if i'm talking about a standard poodle with the poodle haircut or a little yippy toy poodle little yippy toy okay he's got three he's got three. He's got three of them. Their names are Daisy, Oreo, and Bailey.

Oh, very cute. Who named them? I didn't. Well, what? How do you expect me to know that? I don't know, Kristen. I don't even know why I asked. Is it not enough that I'm telling you about his dogs?

I know about the dogs. I know their names. Oh, yeah? Well, what reader did he get them from? I literally do not know what I asked. It's those glasses. You're like, I'm just going to ask a few more questions. Get to the bottom of this he also enjoys hanging out with family playing cards and not traveling

much because he doesn't like to do a lot of stuff okay his home is filled with toys for his grandkids and also filled with word art which you you hate. And you love. I do. It's what keeps our friendship spicy. That's right. So you have a sign above his bed that says, welcome to pound town. Ew. I don't know because I didn't see pictures of his bedroom, though I would very much like

to see pictures. That was like one of those Zillow gone wilds a while back. Yeah. Welcome to pound town. I would absolutely put a sign above my bed that said, welcome to Pound Town. Yeah, that would not shock me at all. Not at all. I mean, you're totally wild because you've got the beach bathroom.

Yeah, that's right. Which, you know, I don't approve. I know you don't. Would you like to know what some of his signs say? Yeah. Okay, he's got one sign that says, We didn't know we were making memories. We just thought we were having fun.

Okay, I actually hate that. You don't have to pretend to hate it. I don't like it. He's got another sign. You want to hear about that one? Yeah. Love makes this house a home. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you own that one?

I don't know. Mine are not inspirational. I'm inspired. I have one that I have three word arts in my home. One says, come as you are, which is a Nirvana lyric. I'm inspired.

One says, I solemnly swear that I'm up to no good, which is from Harry Potter. And then we do have, okay, the third one is actually two pieces. Yeah. One says, I like her butt. The other says, I like his beard. And those hang above our bed.

Well, and technically we do have some word art in our house. What? It's above our bed. What? You don't have any word art in our house. What? It's above our bed. What? You don't have any word art above your bed, Kristen. It just says balls deep. And I think it's subtle. I think it's very subtle.

By the way, the word art, of course, all the important words are in cursive. Obviously. For emphasis. Yes. He's also a big fan of artificial plants. More on that later. K. Everyone, I'm worried that the mic's not going to pick that up.

Brittany goes, K. Because he's going to make toilet planters with artificial plants. Is he? Is he? At any rate, years went by. Hank was still pretty pissed about missing out on Dunkin' Donuts. Although, was it a good deal? We're not really sure.

And who named his dogs? We don't know that either. We barely know anything here at all. But then he got another opportunity. A land developer came to Hank and said they wanted to buy some of his property so they could build a Kenny Drugs, which is not around here. Is that like a Rite Aid situation? It's a friendly local drug dealer named Kenny. I don't think he's a drug dealer.

Once again, Hank was thrilled, so he filled out the appropriate paperwork. But he says that as he did so, one of the town officials told him to not bother. His request was going to be denied, just like his other request had been denied. Why? They don't like Hank the Tank? They don't seem to be big fans. Sure enough, his request was denied. And the Kinney drugs went in right across the intersection from Hank's property. At this point, Hank was highly annoyed.

At this point, Hank was highly annoyed. It's worth noting that Hank is a funny, you know, just kind of sweet looking old guy. What? What? I have a theory about what's going to happen. What's your theory? He's going to put toilet art all over his property so they have no choice but to rezone him so that he can sell it and they can get rid of the toilets. Hmm.

Is that the way these things work? I don't know. That's my theory. All right. So like I said, he's kind of this sweet looking old guy. He has very nice dewy skin. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he's 80, but he's... I imagine it's like how you're going to look when you're 80.

Fucking annoying. That's so rude! when you're 80 fucking annoying no annoying as in how good you're gonna look is going to i'm gonna look annoying when i'm probably what are you what are you looking at on your screen david just texted me i was making sure it was nothing important hmm tell him kristin's talking i just was checking to make sure it wasn't important i have not responded i will not respond because i am engaged in listening to you, Kristen. Are you? Are you?

Because I saw your eyes dart all around the screen, every which way. Every which way. And, you know, when you tell your stories, I don't, like, test out new butt plugs or anything like that. That's the same? Yeah, even though I'm not wearing pants and I could technically like, I could do a ton of stuff down there and you wouldn't be any the wiser unless I made a face or groaned. You think I wouldn't know if you were putting in a butt plug while I'm giving my case? Here's what I do know. I know it would take a lot of guts to accuse someone

you're absolutely right no i i feel like you'd be like are you okay and i'd be like anyway uh hank is a guy who you don't want to fuck with, turns out. All right. All right. His lawyer described him as a Venus fly trap. I love that. Oh.

So Hank decided to get a little revenge on the town officials by going after what they cared about most. The beauty of their town. Mm-hmm. about most? The beauty of their town. He went to that lot that should have been a Dunkin Donuts and he created a cornfield. He grew big tall sunflowers. He made a scarecrow. Then he made another scarecrow and I mean it was scary. He made the head out of an old basketball which he painted white and it was a real nightmare before Christmas vibe Yeah, a little Jack Skellington action. Hank told the media, they could have had a Dunkin' Donuts here. Dunkin' Donuts would have looked good here. Instead of smelling

donuts, now they're smelling shit. That cornfield made quite a splash. But it wasn't enough. They weren't mad about it enough. They were pretty pissed off. He's got to crank it up a notch. He's got to bam! Mm-hmm.

Like Emeril. Exactly like Emeril. Thank you so much. You're welcome. I've mentioned he's got that two-car garage on the property, and Hank decided that it was time to give it a paint job. He painted each of the garage door panels a different color. None of the colors were in the same color family. None of the colors were subtle either. Yeah, it sounds like a real eyesore. He drew a big red face

on one side of the garage and it looked like a big menacing tomato. I mean, it was smiling, but there's a lot you can do with the eyebrows. Absolutely. He put up clotheslines and hung up bra after bra after bra after bra. That sounds expensive. I agree. I'm sure he was just dumpster diving or something. Okay. That piece of property became quite a sight. Or quite an eyesore, depending on who you asked. Yeah, it sounds like an eyesore. Hank succeeded in his mission. He was really pissing off the people in power. But he wondered if maybe he could make them even more upset.

And that's when he came up with an idea. What if he decorated all of his properties, except for his own home, of course, with toilets? Lots and lots of toilets. That would be shitty. Oh, everyone, she's so proud. She's the proudest she's ever been. It was a great idea. So Hank went to local dumpsters and collected discarded toilets and urinals and bathtubs. The toilets were certainly his favorite. Yeah. And then he put those toilets, urinals, and bathtubs all over the lawns of his properties.

Oh, my gosh. Don't worry, Brandyy he made him look really good i doubt it no no listen to this first of all he cleaned out all the bowls real good oh good it's disgusting dumpster diving for toilets oh my god disgusting then he filled the bowls with sand. Then he filled them with artificial flowers, which he purchased at the local dollar tree. He did the same thing with the tanks. He filled them with sand, filled them with artificial flowers. They were porcelain planters, Brandy, just as you predicted. And what, I ask you, is wrong with a porcelain planter?

Well, it's ugly. Oh, is it against the law for things to be ugly? No. No. I bet they're going to try and make it against the law. What he was doing was environmentally friendly. He was taking discarded materials and repurposing them. All right.

What do you hate the earth? No. Hank put the toilets out on his properties and he stood them upright with big cedar poles. He secured the toilets with steel wires because, you know, the toilets would look really tacky if they fell over. Sure. Hank's toilets attracted a lot of attention. The local media ran stories about him. Then the national media and international media.

People were fascinated. The funny thing was that over time, Hank got really into these toilets. He did? Came a passion for them? He started referring to his toilets as toilet gardens. He arranged them. That's like the less popular bush gardens. I don't know how we're ever going to compete with Busch Gardens.

He arranged the toilets in a fashion that was pleasing to him. Oh, okay. My favorite was like he has a semicircle one. It's pretty classy. All right. He lined roads with them, sort of like in L.A., how they've got the palm trees. Yeah. And he decorated them the palm trees. Yeah. And he decorated them for the holidays.

Excellent. He spent a lot of time with these toilets. Yeah. He sure did. For Easter, he put eggs out. Around Christmas time, he got it all festive. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. That sounds fucking terrible.

I don't want to look at that either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I bet the town is pissed. Mm, depends on who you ask. Who likes it? A lot of people think it's funny. Okay, I can see that. A of people uh think that the town officials

fucked up here yeah um but yeah a lot of people also think that it's fucking gross yeah and annoying yes what about that lady who was living next to the potential dunkin donuts how's she feeling about all this well i noticed in the documentary they said she used to live there. Oh, she moved. Oh, my God. She couldn't handle it. Okay. Or she died.

I don't know. There's more than one way to not live somewhere. He installed cameras to deter vandals. He put solar lights in some of the toilet bowls so they glowed. He changed out the flowers, you know, wanting to keep things looking nice. He estimated that every year he spent roughly $500 on artificial flowers for his toilets. That's a lot of money. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. He also decorated some of his properties with toilet seats. One toilet seat was, in my opinion, very eye-catching. The toilet seat was clear, but it was tinted orange, and it had a starfish and seashells and dolphins on it. I just imagine that when that lid is closed over the toilet, it looks like you've got dolphins swimming in your toilet bowl. Probably. You don't seem nearly as taken by it. I'm not.

You know, my grandma used to have a wooden toilet seat. A wooden toilet? Yeah, my grandma had one, too. What's with that? I don't know. My other grandma also had a cushioned toilet seat. Oh, yeah. My great grandma had that.

See, now I can kind of understand the cushion. Yeah. Because that's comfortable for a second, but then it gets hot. Yeah, and it deflates a little bit. Uh-huh. Yeah. Absolutely. But the wooden ones, were people not afraid of splinters back in the day?

I'm less concerned about splinters, more concerned about just like the wood absorbing bacteria. Germies. Yeah. But that was back in the time when people would all get those disgusting covers for their toilet. Do you remember that? Yes, I do remember that. Yeah, that is disgusting. Also, I think a lot of toilet seats are actually made of wood but they're like enameled over it okay well the enamel is very important yeah you know what i like what do you like a soft

closed lid oh yeah so you don't hear a shabam. Yeah. Yeah. When you close it. All right. You're a fancy lady. I can accept that. I do because I don't like the noise of a. Here's what I like. I like a closed lid.

But I don't like to be scared. And I scare you. And it's slamming shut. I mean, are you in the bathroom with another person or like what's. You know that I am scared. Oh, and it's slamming shut. I mean, are you in the bathroom with another person or like what's? You know that I am not. So you're scaring yourself with these? No, no, no. Like somebody is at your home using the bathroom and they think maybe you have a soft.

They think it's a nice place. Turns out they're wrong. And they just like drop it and just slams. Yeah. You know, we have a bathroom right off our kitchen, much like you do. And that happensams. Yeah. You know, we have a bathroom right off our kitchen, much like you do. And that happens frequently. Yeah.

Shouldn't switch it to a soft close. And your guests say, oh, I thought you were rich. Yeah, that's what they're constantly yelling from inside the bathroom. Now I'm scared, they say. Brandy, some people, total weirdos, obviously, didn't like being surrounded by old decommissioned toilets. Shocking. In one of the neighborhoods where

Hank owned property, the neighbors were so worried about how his toilets would affect their property values that they all teamed up and bought the lot from him. Yeah. You'd probably do that too. Okay, you know what's so funny is you're not having the reaction to this

that I thought you would. How did you think I'd react? Well, the documentary really, people are more cool about it, I guess. Like they're more. I don't want toilet art next door. I agree. And I had that same feeling this whole time I was watching the documentary. And I was like, man, I am not cool, I guess.

Yeah, I clearly am not either because I don't want to look at that shit. I would fucking hate that. You know what I also don't want to look at? Your gazing ball. So. Well, yeah, I mean. I'm not going to be offended by your gazing ball, but. Well, not now that you know that people are putting toilets options for you.

You know, there was a house in our neighborhood when I was growing up that had like a garden out front, like a little planter area with flowers. And they had it completely lined with bowling balls. Oh, yeah. Yeah. How'd you feel about that? Didn't like it. Did not like it. As a child, you didn't?

Well, I mean, I was like a teenager. Uh-huh. Yeah, did not like it. Which is even more interesting, I think, because I am a bowler. So if there was anyone who was going to appreciate it it should have been that's right and all they wanted was to lure you into their home i believe that is what they were trying to do oh boy so you thought i would be like who cares it's just a fucking toilet i care i don't want a toilet i know i don't know what i don't know what I thought, I guess, because you don't seem like the type to be real chill about this either.

But it's just funny, like, the kind of man on the street interviews they did with people. People are like, whatever. It's fine. Who cares? I would care. I would care, too. I get a... Never mind.

I shouldn't admit this. What? I get a nevermind I shouldn't admit this I have a neighbor who like lets their kids bikes lay in the front yard and they have like a light above their garage that's just like hanging off by one wire and like every time you see it

I wish they would fix those things wow wow someone's butthole's real tight see it, I wish they would fix those things. Wow. Wow. Mmm. Someone's butthole's real tight. The CEO of the local hospital system complained that they were having trouble attracting doctors to the

area because the doctors would come to town, see all the toilets, and think that Potsdam was a weird place. Mmm. Ooh. Okay. I never. Okay. Obviously, this is not why they think that but like a potty Pottstom. Like I just made that connection. Was that intentional on Hank's part? Like was he making a statement about pot and it being a slang term for a toilet? Well, I will tell you this. This documentary was filmed over multiple days. And

in every single shot that he was included in, he was wearing a T-shirt that said Potty Town and had a cartoon toilet with flowers sticking out of it. But Potsdamdam if you spell it backwards it spells mad stop uh-huh so he also likes to call it mad stop oh and that's supposed to be a clever little dig I don't know how clever that really is though okay all right officials at Clarkson University didn't like Hank's toilets either because one of his properties is like right across from the entrance to the university. How many universities are in this town? I told you it was 70 percent tax-free property. I think you've listed three universities now. So there's two that I believe are like right in town. I can't I feel like there were a couple others though in the documentary they might have mentioned. All right.

Yeah, so he owns the place right across from the entrance and that place is just all toilets. There's a meme going around and it's a picture of Hank sitting on one of his toilets grinning from ear to ear

and the text says, nice college you got there. Be a shame if somebody put a bunch of toilets near it. Stupid. That's funny. Eventually, as you predicted, the town decided to put an end to Hank's display. In 2008, Hank received a code violation. But Hank didn't back down.

He said that his toilet gardens were art and that he had a First Amendment right to have them. What, Brandy? You don't think it's art? He can call it art. I don't know that the First Amendment protects his art, though. It's an expression. Okay. Seems we've got an art snob amongst us.

No, I'm perfectly fine with him calling it art. I think there's lots of things that people call art that I don't necessarily think are art. And, like, that's fine. Like, I don't get all art. So, yeah. Picasso, I like it. Toilet with some artificial flowers from Dollar Tree, not so much? Yeah, I don't think so.

Okay. So this thing went to court. But the code enforcement officer, oopsies, forgot to bring all the paperwork. And so the case against Hank got dismissed. Well, that's good for Hank. Yeah. Not great for Potsdam. It depends.

Maybe the toilets are a good thing for Potsdam. Oh, they're like people want to come to Potsdam and see the toilets. Maybe they're an attraction now, Brandy. Oh, all right. We're making huge tourist revenue off of these toilets. Well, let's slow down. The toilets became a very hot topic. A lot of people

appreciated the toilet gardens. They thought it was kind of funny. People took pictures of themselves sitting on Hank's toilets. Ew! Not a chance in hell I'm sitting on one of those toilets. Sometimes people would sit on one of Hank's toilets and read the newspaper for a while just to be hilarious. Absolutely not.

Sometimes they'd stumble home from the bar and literally pee in one of Hank's toilets. Uh-huh. What does he do then? What do you mean, what does he do? Well, he's got to clean it out then, right? How are you going to know that someone has peed in your planter? I guess you wouldn't. Exactly, which makes it grosser.

Which is another reason I won't be sitting on them. I mean, you sit on other toilets that people have peed on. Yeah, but I can usually assess the cleanliness of them. And if I don't feel real confident, I do like a little hover job. Oh, OK. You ever do a little hover? I hover all the time. I'm hovering right now. No, you're not. You know, at the start of this project, Hank had to go dumpster diving for toilets. But over time, people began donating their old toilets to him. One guy who was featured in the documentary was redoing his bathroom and he had this old yellow toilet. And, you know, he brought it to Hank because he thinks local politics are kind

of funny and he figured it'd be kind of cool to drive by one day and see his old toilet out somewhere. But Brandy, this had to end. This was ridiculous. It is ridiculous. I agree. So in 2010, village officials tried once again to put a stop to the toilet gardens. Naturally, Hank refused to go down without a fight, so this went to court. And it was all playing out kind of fine, like how you'd imagine.

But then, oh, no. The judge got caught sniffing cocaine. What? Yeah. And the judge had to resign in the middle of this case. Yada, yada, yada. The case got dropped and the village decided that they wouldn't go back to court over this. I don't think people usually say sniffing cocaine.

Snorting. Snorting. Doing. Using. What if you're not down for a snort? You just want a little sniff. A little sniff-a-roo. Just a little bump. Yeah, see?

I think people should start saying sniff a real there's a little bump yeah see i think people should start saying sniff a cocaine i don't want too much just a little sniff please years passed and hank and his toilets developed quite a reputation i mentioned the shirts yeah i bet you'd like to own one. No, you would not. You don't find this amusing at all. You're not nearly as amused as I thought you'd be. The band Animal Crackers wrote a song called Robar's Blues. You big fan of Animal Crackers, Kristen?

Actually, the song was very catchy. Would you like me to sing some of it to you? Of course I would. Okay. It opens with, is that a toilet or is it art? Is that a toilet or is it art? Well, if it's art, I think it's really funny. If it's a toilet, won't you wait for me, honey?

I didn't get the thing right. But, you know, that's kind of folksy. Yeah. I mean, it has been in my head for days now. Wonderful. One of Hank's neighbors wrote a play about the toilets. It's called Hank's Tanks. That's good.

It's very meta. It's about what is art, really. It seemed like maybe Hank had won this battle, but laws began changing at the local level. In 2018, the village got a junk storage law. Would you like to hear what it says? Yeah. Would you like to hear what it says? Yeah. It says,

A clean, wholesome, and attractive environment is of vital importance to the continued general welfare of the village's citizens and that the deposit, accumulation, or maintenance of junk material, regardless of quantity, is hereby prohibited anywhere within sight of persons lawfully traveling the public highways, streets, or thoroughfares of the village or within sight of neighboring properties. Okay? All right. Little or no value, including but not limited to junk appliances, junk furniture, junk mobile homes, junk motor vehicles and or garbage and or rubbish, clutter, litter and debris. Doesn't sound like they're outlawing art. Uh oh. Uh oh. Uh oh. What do you think, Brandi?

Does this not apply to Hank? I think Hank's not going to think it applies to him because he has art. Do you think it applies to him? I absolutely do. How can you say that it has little value? It has discarded toilets. They are not discarded. They have been found. They are repurp discarded toilets. They are not discarded.

They have been found and arranged and well cared for. Sounds like junk. It made the news, Brandy. When's the last time your junk made the news? In 2020, the village board voted on a resolution that ordered Hank to remove his toilets by September 1st of that year. They claimed he'd violated the junk law. And he was like, I've been looking left. I've been looking right.

I've been looking up. I've been looking down. I don't see junk anywhere. Wow, that was beautiful. Yeah, so Hank and his lawyer, Mark Snyder, who by this point were basically BFFs, were like, oh, boy. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. O-Town.

You don't want to do this. O-Town? What was O-Town doing there? My God. They wanted to be in his liquid-Town doing there? My God. They wanted to be in his liquid dreams. Ew. Oh, my God. That's the O-Town song. Yeah, I know, but we're talking about an 80-year-old man.

Oh, okay, I'm sorry. They wanted all or nothing at all. My goodness. So Hank's lawyer was like, OK, if you really want to step this up a notch, you could sue them in federal court. Did he say bam? Naturally. He had to finish the O-Town song because a lot of 80 year olds are super into O-Town. Yeah. So he finished that song and then he was like, bam! And then he got a ribbon dancer.

Because Hank really peaked in the 90s. Much like us. For that part, his lawyer advised him to hire this attorney named John Crane. And John seemed to be thrilled to take on this case. Because there was some good legal precedent that was on Hank's side. What do we got? Okay. So basically he decided to view this two ways.

These toilets were political speech and they're also art. All right. That's good. Not bad. Not bad, right? So, for example, he mentioned as legal precedent this Supreme Court case from 1931, Stromberg versus California. So in that case, California had a statute that banned red flags because communism is bad. And this isn't America, apparently.

You can't raise a red flag. But this 19-year-old woman, Yetta Stromberg, was a member of the Young Communist League. She ran this summer camp where they raised a red flag for communism, and she went on trial for that. But the Supreme Court ultimately decided that she shouldn't have because the statute went against people's First Amendment rights. So that set the precedent that free speech isn't just what you say, it can be symbolic speech, it can be raising a flag or putting a bunch of toilets on an empty lot maybe. Sure. So Hank's lawyer argued that what he was doing was protected by the First Amendment and the 14th Amendment and that Hank's toilet gardens should also be protected under the Visual Artists' Rights Act.

That law gives artists certain rights and it protects art that is of recognized stature. Okay. Nice vague term there. Sure. But I mean, I mean, his toilet gardens are pretty well known. They've got t-shirts about them. There's a song about them. I mean, his toilet gardens are pretty well known. Yep. They've got t-shirts about him. There's a song about him.

There's a play about him. It's been in the international news. Yeah. This dude was jazzed because a big case regarding the Visual Artists' Rights Act had just wrapped up, and he felt that it was, again, excellent legal precedent for his argument. Yeah. And he felt that it was, again, excellent legal precedent for his argument. So in that particular case, this developer owned a bunch of property and he allowed these really talented graffiti artists to cover his property in graffiti. And they did. The building became very well known among artists.

But almost out of the blue, the building owner had all the graffiti whitewashed on this warehouse. Then he had the building destroyed so that they could build luxury condos. And the artists were pissed because their art had been destroyed. So this turned into a pretty big case. An article I read said most of these cases get settled, but this one was unique in that it actually went through the court system and the artists were awarded $6.75 million. Wow. So Hank's attorney had a couple of arguments. It's political speech, it's art, and also Hank's toilets don't fit into the town's definition of junk. Yeah. The village defines junk as discarded material of little or no value.

And these are valuable works of art. They could be in the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum. They could not. Shut your mouth. Just stick them up there where that missing art is.

They won't even miss the Rembrandt. Yeah, the argument is his toilets were not discarded. He kept them up. He adds flowers to them. He maintains them. He spends money on them. And the fact that his toilet gardens have made the news and that people come to see them means they do have value. Yeah, I think that's a good argument i think it is too yeah i don't like it but i think it's a good argument no it's

it's funny so they interviewed some artists for the documentary about folk art and how and you know just kind of pushing the definitions of what art is and it's like okay yeah these are all excellent points yeah but god damn would i hate to have toilets yes in my neighborhood like 100 percent his attorney also argued that the junk storage law was passed basically specifically to target hank yeah probably which you can't do but damn i don't blame him a bit so hank filed his lawsuit against the town in federal court in august of 2020 he sought seven million dollars in damages uh how did he arrive at that number? It was just very, very hard on him.

Almost immediately, District Court Judge Lawrence Kahn issued a direct order to the village officials to not fuck with Hank's toilets for the time being. And he used that language, and I think that's too harsh. Yeah, me too. And that seemed to scare the shit out of the village board. Good thing there were so many toilets lying around, am I right? Yep. So a few months later, they voted unanimously to rescind the junk storage law, I think hoping to be like, okay, just kidding.

Just kidding. Make that lawsuit go away. Stop it. Stop it. We didn't mean it. But Hank kept his lawsuit going. Yeah, of course he did. And it. We didn't mean it. But Hank kept his lawsuit going. Yeah, of course he did. And it paid off because eventually the town settled with him.

So he wouldn't reveal much about the terms of the settlement. I know you hate it. He definitely got some money and he can confirm that he is, quote, very happy. Hmm. What do you think that means? How much would you guess he got? I don't know. $500,000.

Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. But who knows, honestly. Yeah. To celebrate the legal victory, Hank and his lawyers went to Dunkin' Donuts. To celebrate the legal victory, Hank and his lawyers went to Dunkin' Donuts.

I'm like, I read this letter to the editor from someone who was just like pissed off. Pissed about the toilets? Well, and pissed that it was front page news. And like, I think there are a lot of people who are like, we want to not talk about this anymore. Yeah. And that really does make it funnier. Absolutely. Anyway, that's a story about toilets loved it yeah i think that he had a good argument but i would also be pissed if there were toilets all over the place in my neighborhood yeah yeah okay the other thing oh gosh this is

maybe not nice is you didn't think he did the arrangement quite right? They were a little bit out of balance. I thought they looked tacky. No, I mean, I guess I would have to know more about his beef with the city and stuff, but like... And yeah, in small towns there is favoritism, and that sucks.

That's not right. I don't know. It feels kind of entitled to think that whatever property you have should be rezoned at your whim. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, I could see that as well. Yeah. He got mad at the city over another thing. I could see that as well.

Yeah. He got mad at the city over another thing. So in like 2013, I obviously didn't include this in the script, but in 2013, he was renting out this property to this couple and the couple got into a fight. The woman gathered up all her boyfriend's clothes, lit a match. And like, I mean, this house just caught fire. Oh, gosh. And fire department came, but they'd evidently cleared the line that day or something, so they didn't have enough water. What? I know. I know.

It was the weirdest thing. They were doing like old timey bringing buckets in. Well, I mean, I think it kind of became a thing of like, well, too bad. Yeah, this thing's gone. So it burned. Yeah. And then the city like got on him to raise the, is that? Yeah.

Yeah, raise it. And they also demanded that he like get someone who was like, you know, asbestos certified or whatever. What? Well. What? Well. What? He was mad about that because that was extra expensive. Yeah, absolutely. I can understand that.

Yeah. Yeah. And also like it burned as far as it burned because the fire department didn't put it out. Right. I can understand him being mad about that. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean. Right. I can understand him being mad about that, honestly. Yeah. Yeah.

So, I mean, this is like a 17-year-long beef. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, because then he had to incur all these additional costs, which probably he wouldn't have had to do had the fire department been able to react in a timely manner and extinguish the blaze. Yeah, I can kind of see that one. All right. I mean, I think Hank had some good arguments. It's true. But I don't like his art.

He had some beautiful toilets. To separate the art from the artist. Do you want to stop and look at the toilet? I sure do. Okay. What do I look up? Potsdam toilets. Potsdam is P-O-T-S-D-A-M.

Let's see. I just see. Oh, here we go. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Tell me what you're seeing, Brandi. I just see. Oh, here we go. Oh, boy. Oh, boy. Tell me what you're seeing, Brandi. I hate it. Okay.

What I am currently looking at is what appears to be that garage that you mentioned. Yeah. And it is just painted. It actually, the paint is not as offensive as I expected it to be. I am way more offended by the toilet. And the multiple urinals that are attached to the garage. Also, are those, oh, that's part of the arrangement. Are these like palm trees sticking up out of the?

It does have kind of a palm tree look. So he did those cedar posts to hold each of them upright. He added colored tape for decorative purposes. And then he added like leafy greens to the top. It does have kind of a palm tree look. It does. I'm also seeing a urinal attached to some kind of stump here that appears to be painted red. That's interesting, too.

Oh, see, I don't care for this at all. These ones are just laying on the ground. They're just all tipped over. Maybe that's an act of vandalism. I'm not really sure. Yeah, he does not. He does not approve of them being knocked over. He really tries to keep them upright. And, you know, he doesn't have a favorite toilet, Brandy. You didn't ask, but he doesn't. But if he had to choose, he would say that his favorites are the bathtubs that he pulled from his grandma's house.

Naturally. Yeah. Okay. That is interesting, and I hate it. I would not want to live next to this guy or any of his properties. Would you rent from him? No. Wow.

I wouldn't. What a hater. Some people just don't appreciate good art. I guess that's me. Would you like to do an ad now, ma'am? You know, I think I would. It's time for an ad. Time for an ad. Here we go for an ad time for an ad here we go for an ad

we're back did you miss us obviously i bet you missed us are you ready to hear about the red sash murderer i am okay why are you poking your neck like that? I was actually poking my jaw. Okay. Why? I have no idea, Kristen. I wish you wouldn't ask me these questions. You're the one who looks like you're doing some kind of beauty regimen. No, I don't know.

I just feel my jawline. Is it a self-conscious thing? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You're so ridiculous. Yeah. How's it looking?

Defined? It looks good. Thank you. Okay. The look on your face. All right. All right. Shout out to an episode of my favorite oxygen program, Accident, suicide, or murder.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And an article for Metroactive. What? No idea. It's a... It sounds like a probiotic.

Some kind of magazine, I believe, founded on the interwebs. And an article for that magazine by Loren Stein. You ready? What is that?

That is the loudest car that's ever driven by this house. Yes. It all started as a routine family visit. It was September 18th, 1995, and Bill and Nancy Galbraith had stopped by the Palo Alto, California home of Bill's parents, Nelson and Josephine Galbraith. They chatted with Nelson, who was kind of snoozing in a recliner in the family room, and then Bill made his way to his mother's room, where he made a horrible discovery. 76-year-old Josephine Galbraith lay dead on her bed. She was dressed in a chemise. What's a chemise? It's like a silky nightgown. Oh yeah, okay. And a red sash was tied tightly around her neck. There were multiple slits to her left wrist and elbow, and a bloody knife and razor blade were found nearby,

kind of like on a table across the room from the bed. There was a bucket positioned near the side of the bed to catch blood as it dripped from her hand bill's wife nancy what the fuck bill's wife nancy went to work untying the sash around josephine's neck it had been looped around her neck three times and after each loop it had been like secured with a set of double knots so nancy's trying to get this untied she's like unties the first set of knots gets the loop undyed unties the second set of knots gets the loop undone and when she gets to the third set she cannot get it untied that tie that set

of knots had been tied so tight that she ultimately had to cut the sash to get it off of Josephine. The whole thing was horrible. Josephine Galbraith was dead. She'd been discovered by her unsuspecting son and his wife, and she died while her husband was in the next room. Sadly, though, Josephine's death wasn't that surprising to the family. death wasn't that surprising to the family. In fact, she had been under medical care for extreme depression with suicidal ideations. Just a week earlier, she'd been under a 48-hour hold at the hospital for suicidal thoughts and tendencies. In fact, it was known to pretty much everyone around her that she no longer wished to be alive. Josephine suffered from chronic pain as the result of severe arthritis in her back. She had injured her back years earlier.

And just as she got older, she developed horrible arthritis and was in constant pain. On top of that, she had recently been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. Oh, my God. This was actually something she was super familiar with. She had just witnessed a few years earlier her sister battle with Parkinson's. It had been extremely painful, horrible disease. She'd ultimately died from it. And it was something that just when she was diagnosed with it, she became super depressed. And it was something that just when she was diagnosed with it, she became super depressed.

She was the mother of five adult children and she expressed to each of her children how she would rather just end her life than live the rest of her days out in this horrible pain fighting this horrible disease. Right. She at some points had screamed to her loved ones that she wanted to kill herself. She wrote letters to her friends and family members expressing these ideas. She had told her son, Don, I want to kill myself. I want to sprout wings and fly to heaven. I want to see my mother. One time she had told her son that she wanted to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge.

She had asked another one of her sons, David, who was a physician, to prescribe her drugs so she could end her life. And he had refused. Yeah. She often didn't take her prescribed medication in hopes that, you know, it would end her life sooner. She just was ready to be done. This is so sad. Yeah. This is why I really think there needs to be more violence. Doctor-assisted suicide?

Yes, I really do. In situations like this, absolutely. Yeah. Josephine had actually taken steps to get her affairs in order. She had canceled her Social Security benefits. She'd called a cemetery to arrange her burial. She had asked her children to come visit her. One of her children, she had maybe said, like, come see me for the last time. Like, her wishes were pretty

well known. Right. She no longer kept up with her friends. She wouldn't leave the house. She had completely changed in the last few years of her life. She was miserable. Her son, Don, said, we didn't know that it was that serious. But once she passed, we knew that it was and that it was too late. So police responded to this scene where Josephine was found. And they began processing the scene at the home. And initially their take was like, yes, this is a very tragic case of where, you know, Josephine had died by suicide. And she had taken steps to help her family in the aftermath of her death.

She'd covered the bedspread with a sheet so that it wouldn't get blood on it. She'd arranged that bucket so that the blood would drip into it and not all over the floor, minimizing whatever cleanup there might be. But she hadn't left a note or anything. Right. That seemed unusual to one of the detectives who responded to the scene, Michael Yor. He said it seemed weird that there wasn't a note at the scene. Well, but, I mean, she had all those conversations with everybody. Absolutely. So. Absolutely.

He also thought that Josephine's husband, Nelson, acted pretty weird. Oh, God. Like, OK. He wasn't emotional at all. Well, they probably had this discussion quite a bit. Yeah, probably. But no, he wasn't. His wife had just died by suicide.

He wasn't emotional at all. So that was weird to Detective Yor. Oh my God. Nelson had been there in the house when it had happened and he said he hadn't heard anything. He said he'd been sleeping in the living room and, you know, slept through the whole thing. The detective did question the Galbraith's children about this. Like, does that seem possible? And they confirmed that Nelson actually had narcolepsy. And it was super common for him to be able to sleep through everything. Loud bangs. Well, all right. Yes. He would fall asleep anywhere and he could sleep through almost anything. So like they were like, yeah, that tracks. That's believable. Yes. Yes.

Like, yeah, that tracks. That's believable. Absolutely. Yes. Detective Yor also thought that parts of the crime scene seemed a little odd. He did call it a crime scene. Oh, my God, dude. That bucket that was placed under Josephine's arm to catch the blood, he thought that was really weird.

Well, okay. So I agree with him that there are aspects He thought that was really weird. Well, OK. So I agree with him that there are aspects of this that seem really weird. If you're thinking about it in terms of a traditional suicide. Yeah, I'm sure that is pretty weird. Yeah. But this isn't a traditional suicide. This is someone who has lived a long, full life and is ready to. She's in chronic pain. Lived a long, full life and is ready to. She's in chronic pain. She's been diagnosed with a disease that's going to make everything worse. Yeah.

She's made a decision. Mm-hmm. She's made plans. Yep. Yeah. So he didn't like that bucket that was set up. He didn't like the razor blade and the bloody knife. First of all, he thought it was really weird that the bloody knife had blood like on the blade but none on the handle because Josephine had blood on her hands. So how did she have blood on her hands if there was no blood on the handle of the knife?

Somebody else must have touched the handle of that knife well unless she used the knife first yeah yeah and yeah and then used the razor blades afterwards yeah yep also he thought she was dressed very oddly to be discovered by family members why would she choose to be in her underwear? Well, it's not really underwear. It's not really underwear. Like it's a kind of a nightgown. Nightgown, yeah. And I don't know.

I think when you're in that kind of pain, you wear whatever feels comfortable. Yeah, maybe that's what she decided she wanted to wear. I mean, not everyone is a never nude like me. Maybe that was her favorite nightie. I don't know. I find you in a chemise. I'm like foul play. Foul play.

Yeah. So initially he does not like the scene. He's like, this is kind of odd. And then there was the sash. So the sash was a nylon sash, 63 inches in length. It was the sash from a robe. Okay. And it had been tied,

knotted, looped, knotted, looped, knotted. But there wasn't blood on the sash. But she had blood on her hands. Okay, but so she did that part first totally agree right i mean yeah

i think that's very possible but to this particular fact was like a deal breaker for this detective he was like this is the thing this is the thing that makes me think this was not suicide this was a homicide but really no one else at the scene is thinking that the other police who responded to the scene put in their reports as a suspected suicide the coroner listed it as likely suicide. It just made sense. You've got the family telling these stories about how she was ready to be done. Well, yeah, because they're all murderers. Maybe.

And then looking into the couple, the detective found something they found very concerning. What? Nelson. Nelson. Nelson wasn't his name. I just merged their names together. It was Nelson. Nelson.

Jesus. Nelson and Josephine were divorced. Okay. So Nelson and Josephine were like childhood sweethearts. They'd met very young. Nelson, in one of the articles that I read, tells this very sweet story about like they met when they were, I don't know, 15 or 16. And like he didn't touch her for the first year that they knew each other. He thought she was just so precious.

And then he loved her every day for the rest of his life. In 1983, they actually did divorce. Josephine ended the marriage. She actually left. They spent five years apart. And then after five years, she came back to Nelson and they spent the rest of their life together. They celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary.

They acted as if they had never been apart. They raised a beautiful family together. Wow. Yeah. That's kind of cool. Yeah. They just never actually remarried when they got back together. Yeah.

they got back together. Yeah. But to Detective Yor, that seemed like a red flag that basically it looked like maybe Nelson was living off Josephine. Why would that make it look like that? They were divorced. Josephine seemed to be the only one who like had a regular income at this point, I guess. And they're retired old people. Right.

Regular income? Yeah, I'm not really sure. It just says that she was financially supporting the couple. They were doing just fine. Well, then why would you kill her if she's the one financially supporting you? Right. It doesn't make any sense. As far as I found, there was no mention of like a giant life insurance policy or anything.

Yeah. Hmm. found there was no mention of like a giant life insurance policy or anything yeah so detective yore has these kind of ideas in his head but he sees that you know the family is saying this seems like suicide the coroner says yes this appears to be a suicide and so he decides he is gonna wait until the official autopsy comes back, the medical examiner's report. And when it comes back, it is kind of weird. The medical examiner ruled that Josephine had died of strangulation, but no manner of death was listed. Instead, in the place of manner of death and cause of death, the medical examiner had written pending and pending investigation. And so for whatever reason, this medical examiner had done this

autopsy and then determined like. Can't rule it a suicide. Yeah. We need further investigation here. And so with that ruling coming back from the medical examiner, Detective Yor, continued to investigate this case. He said, as an investigator, you follow the evidence. She had blood on her fingers and her hands, but there was no blood on the sash. Her bloody hands clearly didn't touch that sash. There's no blood on the handle of the knife. Either she wiped her hands clean or she didn't touch the handle of the knife. These are facts that you can't ignore.

So here's something interesting about that to me. clean or she didn't touch the handle of the knife. These are facts that you can't ignore. So here's something interesting about that to me. He said she either wiped her hands clean or didn't touch the knife. There were bloody tissues in the bucket with the blood. So it is possible that she wiped her hands clean at some point and then just continued to bleed. Yeah. It was also determined that the cuts to her arms, so she cut her wrist a couple times and then at her elbow a couple times, they were very superficial. They called them hesitancy marks. Very, very common in attempted suicide cases where the person, you know, decides not to go through with it or is unable to go through with it. This just further bolstered the family's theory that this was legitimately a suicide.

Right. Medical examiner's report saying pending investigation, it also made a note that it was asphyxiation by assailant. What's that mean? So somebody else had done the strangulation. Oh, God. It made a note of that in the autopsy report. Okay. And so that fueled this investigation to continue. A month after Josephine's death, the Palo Alto police announced that they were investigating the case as a homicide and that Nelson was their top suspect.

They made this public information. Wow. Yeah. This was devastating to the Galbraith family. They were like, what? They could not believe it. Their son, Richard, said, frankly, I was insulted. He would have done anything to protect her. That's what he said of his father.

Yeah. So they continue to do this investigation. The medical examiner, like later, based on the investigation, went back and amended Josephine's death certificate. He officially listed her manner of death as homicide. Giving the reasoning for that ruling, he said that she likely lacked the physical strength to die by suicide due to her arthritis and her Parkinson's. This angered the Galbraith children because their father, Nelson, had rheumatoid arthritis. He literally could not tie his own shoes because his hands were so disfigured by his rheumatoid arthritis. Yet he's the one who's doing this. Is the one who. With the complicated double knots and everything.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So they become so angry that this is, number one, not been ruled a suicide as they have assured the police that it is. have assured the police that it is. And then number two, their father is being dragged into this and his name is out in the public as being suspected of murdering the wife that he spent his entire life loving. So they kind of go on like the defensive about their dad. They start looking into different ways that they can build a defense for him yeah and so they do all of this research they said that like initially this

detective yore starts trying to put together a motive and he comes up with the thought that like she josephine was the one supporting them financially and that they were technically divorced and that was somehow the motive. I literally do not understand how that is a motive. But the children were so upset about that. Dick Galbraith, one of the children, he said, In 60 years, my father never laid a finger on my mother. Not a single instance.

And then he talked about how they had spent that time apart. And then they'd come back together like they had never lost a minute of time. They'd gone on vacations together. They said, he always loved my mother. She's the only person he's ever dated, ever been with. To have him accused of this horrible crime against the woman he loved, it's unfathomable the torture they put him through. unfathomable the torture they put him through. So the family starts looking into possibilities of like proof that this happened.

So one of the things that led to this being declared a homicide is that the medical examiner didn't believe that someone could die by suicide through this method, self-affixiation. What? Never heard of it through this method. What kind of medical examiner are you? So he said he was familiar with hangings and stuff like that, but that's not what this case was. This was a single sash tied around her neck to the point that she strangled herself to death. Yeah. So he never heard of it.

Didn't believe that was a possibility. Well, had he considered Googling it? Well, it's 1995. Oh, I'm sorry. Did he even think of asking Jeeves? So, yeah, so the family starts buying up all these, these like forensic pathology books and looking at cases it turns out it's actually very common for elderly women to die by suicide in this manner really yes why because it doesn't take a great amount of strength okay Okay. It's with something that they have readily available. Right. It's not particularly painful. Right. Okay. Yeah. So it's not a super common

mode of suicide, but it is actually fairly common in elderly women specifically. elderly women specifically. Well, there you go. But medical examiner didn't know that, didn't, so that didn't factor into his ruling. Yeah. And so the district attorney's office decided to pursue charges against Nelson Galbraith and they arrested him and charged him with first degree murder. Oh, wow. So he was 78 years old at the time that he was arrested. Oh, my Lord. No criminal record, I'm guessing. The police came to his home, arrested him at gunpoint.

Oh, my God. In front of his grandchildren. No. Yeah. Dislocated his shoulders when they put him in handcuffs because he had terrible rheumatoid arthritis. Oh, my gosh. When they showed up with their guns pulled, he said, what are you going to do, shoot me? Yeah.

I mean, that's so. What is even more infuriating about this is that his lawyer, who has the best name I've ever heard in my life. Let's hear it. Philip Pennypacker. I love that. I think Pennypacker sounds like an old timey insult for a cheap person. So like if you wanted to insult my dad in the 1800s. You call him a Pennypacker.

Very good. Yeah. I just love the alls. You call him a penny packer. Very good. Yeah. I just love the alliteration of all. Yeah, penny packer. Yeah. Okay. So they knew that he was being investigated. So he had gotten a defense attorney.

The defense attorney was in talks with the DA's office, whatever. They told him we are going to press charges. And so he had arranged for nelson to go just turn himself in yeah and then they came and arrested him at his house at gunpoint anyway why though i have no idea a slow day on the force i don't know That is so weird. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Nelson spent three days in jail before he was able, like before a bond was assigned. He was assigned a $500,000 bond. And then his kids took a little bit of time getting that money together because he had to post 10% of it. So they paid $50,000.

And then ultimately Nelson was able to go home. But media picked up this story because of this grand arrest that had taken place. And it's this kind of salacious story. And the media dubbed him the Red Sash Murderer. Oh, I hate that. Yep. Yeah. Oh, God.

So this actually had a devastating impact on the Galbraith family, obviously. Yeah, this would be horrible. It was made even more horrible because one of the children like separated off and sided with the D.A. and was like, yeah, I think my dad did murder my mom and I'll testify if you need me to. think my dad did murder my mom and I'll testify if you need me to. So one of the children actually a couple of the children are interviewed on this episode of accident, suicide or murder. And they're like, we still to this day don't know what his motivation was. Like, did he think he was going to get more inheritance money? Like, we don't know. But I don't know that it even has to necessarily be something that sinister. So it's interesting you say that because I wondered that, too, because it was actually Bill, the son that had found her.

That is the one who was like, yeah, he might have killed her. I'll testify for the prosecution if you need me to. And so maybe that just had such a devastating, traumatic effect on him. I think there's also, I mean, depending on your exposure to the justice system and all that, I think there are a lot of people who. I really like when there's a pause in justice like that. Could you kiss my ass? Could you kiss my ass? No, I think depending on your exposure to the justice system, I think there are a lot of people who assume that if a detective has come to this conclusion and the DA's office has come to this conclusion, then there's probably some merit.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know, maybe it would feel disloyal to your mother to not at least entertain that idea. Yeah. Oh, that's really sad. Yeah. So the rest of the children, like, banded together to do whatever they could to help their father's defense. They started, like I said, going, poring over forensic pathology books, finding any evidence they could in those of other cases similar to this.

They poured over the autopsy report. Remember, initially it had come back pending investigation and the medical examiner had changed the ruling to homicide strangulation by assailant. So they were like, how did they get there? How did this medical examiner get there? So they started looking through that autopsy report and it seemed off to them. The whole autopsy had taken 45 minutes, according to the report. There was a note that said that the loop of the sash that had been tied around Josephine's neck had only measured two and a half inches in diameter. The loop around her neck? Around her neck had measured two and a half inches in diameter. The loop around her neck? Around her neck had measured two and a half

inches in diameter. This was like a huge red flag to the Galbraith family. They're like, that doesn't make any sense. It couldn't be two and a half inches. That wouldn't, like, there was no damage to her neck. That would have damaged her neck. Right. And so one of the sons, Richard, who also goes by Dick, I think I've called him both names. I apologize. He decides he's going to show this autopsy report to a friend of his. His neighbor actually happens to be a forensic pathologist. Oh, holy shit. OK. Well, that's like, hey, do you mind looking over my mom's autopsy report? Just tell me like tell me what I'm seeing. Tell me if this seems a little bit odd.

And the neighbor was a huge asshole. He's like, oh, yeah, you know what I want to do after a long day? Yeah, I want to look at your fucking autopsy. No, he was like, absolutely, let me look at it. And he looks at it, and he says, okay. So he's got the autopsy report. He's got crime scene photos. He's looking at both of them, and he goes, okay, first thing that's off,

this two-and-a-half half inch loop, there's no way. That would have decapitated her. Oh. Oh my God. So that is an error, which is a huge error. So how many other errors are there in this autopsy? are there in this right in this autopsy well at one point it was listed that josephine had all of her organs intact she'd had a hysterectomy oh it had not been a thorough autopsy at all right yet it had resulted in. Yes. Someone being charged with murder. Yeah. So this forensic pathologist is like, this is a mess. So at some point, it seems that the prosecution likely realized that this was going to be difficult to take to trial.

So they came to Nelson with a deal. First, the defense had asked for the case to be dismissed. They're like, this is ridiculous. This is a case of suicide. The autopsy is a mess. Like, yeah, it was not done thoroughly. Here's errors that we can point out to you. And their motion was dismissed. The case was not dismissed. And so then the prosecution comes to Nelson with a deal. If he would plead guilty, they would drop the charge from first-degree murder to second-degree manslaughter, and he would serve no jail time. Fuck off. I hate this.

You know what Nelson said when he was told about the deal? Tell him to go to hell. Wow. He would not take it. You know, it's funny. I can certainly see it being very tempting to take. But at the same time, you know that if they're making that kind of offer, they know they don't have a case. And also they can blow it out their ass.

Yeah. I bet he also said that to them. He probably did. I'm going to guess. He seems like the type of guy. To tell someone to blow it out their ass? Yeah, he said tell them to go to hell. It's basically the same thing.

So in August of 1998, Nelson went to trial for first degree murder of his wife, Josephine, who for sure died by suicide. This is so sad. Yeah. Yeah. The prosecutors argued that it would have been physically impossible for Josephine to have killed herself. She would have been she was in a weakened state because of her Parkinson's and her arthritis. She couldn't have done it. So it had to be Nelson.

He was the only one else at the home that day. And it was also terribly weak because of rheumatoid arthritis. So the defense argued that Nelson had horrible rheumatoid arthritis and also would not have been physically capable of this. Right. Deputy District Attorney Linda Condren argued that Josephine could not have strangled herself with the multiple knots at her age, in her state of health, and that if she had, there would have been blood all over that sash. That's how they know it didn't happen because she had blood on her hands, so there would have been blood on the sash. Why would there have had to be blood on the sash? I don't know because we couldn't have possibly done it in another order, I guess.

I don't know. I don't know why that is the big, like, they think that's the smoking gun. I think there's lots of reasons that there couldn't have been blood on the sash. Maybe she wiped all the blood off, tied, like, maybe she did do the slits first and realized that she was unsuccessful. And then she wiped all the blood off with the tissues that were found in the bucket and then she tied the sash and then she continued to bleed. Yeah. Yeah. Seems completely plausible to me.

Yeah, more plausible than what they're putting forth. Also, I'm just thinking about position wise. Okay. So she's made these superficial cuts on her arm. She bled initially. She wipes it off with tissues. And then if she's in a position where she's laying down and she's got her arms raised to tie this sash, she likely wouldn't have bled during that time. The bleeding wouldn't have probably started again until she then relaxed her arms i don't know maybe maybe not or wouldn't have maybe drip like it wouldn't

have dripped onto her hands while she's actively yeah i don't know tying the this is so bananas to me that this made it to trial. Yeah. Well, they didn't want it to go to trial. They offered him an amazing deal. Yeah. And it's only an amazing deal if you're an actual murderer. Absolutely. The deputy district attorney also alleged that even if Nelson hadn't murdered Josephine, at the very least, he had assisted in her suicide. Oh, come on.

Which would make him guilty of second-degree murder. I hate that shit. In the state of California at this time. I know, I know, I know. See, I feel like that would be a much better argument. Yeah. I don't know that there's a lot of evidence to support it, but. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. I don't know that there's a lot of evidence to support it, but. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. So.

In contrast, Phil. Philip Pennypecker. Wow. Sorry. Philip Pennypacker. Pennypecker, a very different last name. That's how you insult a man who is cheap. The tiniest, flattest little pecker. I'm guessing Phil has been called Penny Pecker a time or two in his life. Don't you imagine? So it's okay for you to do it?

No, it was a slip of the tongue. I did not intend to do it. I'm just guessing that when he was a young little filly, probably mean kids in the schoolyard called him Penny Packer. Yeah. Don't you imagine? I do imagine. Anyway, so Philip Penny Packer, as it were, said that Nelson couldn't have done this. He had very severe rheumatoid arthritis.

His joints were literally dislocated because his arthritis was so bad. Well, that's kind of the funny one because that's something you can see very easily visually. I mean, just hold him up for the dirt. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. They said it would not have been possible for him to have strangled his wife. The defense presented evidence about the lack of blood spatter at the scene. Like there was no fight that happened

there. There were no scratches on Josephine aside from these hesitancy wounds from the slits that she had made. Murder. And also the preparation that had gone into this. Yeah. She'd

laid down the sheet. She'd laid down the sheet. She'd placed the bucket there. They also talked about how the way the knots were tied were actually very consistent with suicide. The first knot was tied the tightest. When you talk about suicide, that is very common. The first knot is the tightest. They get looser as you go.

When you talk about murder, the last knot is the tightest. They get looser as you go. When you talk about murder, the last knot is the tightest. He had the Galbraith children take the stand and speak at length about their parents' marriage, how strong it was, how they'd spent basically their entire lives together. And they talked about their mother's deep depression. She had made her wishes known to so many people. Yeah. Everyone knew. Mm-hmm. And they had done steps to intervene.

They'd gotten her therapy. They'd put her in the 48-hour hold just the week before. And she was under a doctor's care and she had made up her mind that this is what she wanted yeah she didn't want to live her days out in horrible pain fighting a horrible disease that she had just seen her sister die from oh my god the prosecution star witness was dr angelo ozoa he was the medical examiner who had done the autopsy he had done this job for 18 years he was given basically top billing at this trial of you know he's the he's the star and he said that it was his position that the evidence in this autopsy showed that this was a homicide. Okay. So the prosecutor is interviewed a bit on this

episode of accident, suicide, or murder. And she admits that when Dr. Azoa got on the stand, that is when she realized that her case was falling apart a little bit. Oh, really? Because he only seemed like very basically acquainted with the case. Oh. He couldn't recall facts about it very well. Are you kidding me? No.

I guess he did very poorly on the stand. There was a very lengthy cross-examination by Philip Pennypacker. And at one point, Dr. Ozoa got very upset and he said, are you questioning my competency? Well, yeah, that's. Yeah. And Philip Pennypacker was like. How are you not prepared for this moment, sir? Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. for this moment, sir. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, the prosecution's case had really fallen apart by this time.

Ozoa did not do well on the stand. Did they do any kind of trial prep with him? I don't know. It does not appear. He just was, like, very defensive

when he was asked about, like, okay, what about this note about the loop being two and a half inches in diameter? Like that seems like that's not possible. Do you think you made a mistake there? And I think that's when he was like, are you questioning my competency? And then they pointed out. That's what I shout when I'm wrong.

Yeah. And then they pointed out how he had noted that all of her organs were intact, yet she had had a hysterectomy and… He said, oops, fudge stripes. Right, exactly. Yeah. So the defense to kind of contradict Dr. Ozoa's testimony put a separate medical examiner on the stand, Dr. Gray, who was like the medical examiner for the state of Utah. Okay. He was like a friend of a friend and they'd called him and he was like, absolutely, I'll testify in the case. This was super unusual for him. He almost never testified for a defense before. He always testifies for the prosecution. He's a state medical examiner.

Right. And so he got on the stand and he went over the autopsy and he was like, And so he got on the stand and he went over the autopsy and he was like, this was a shoddy job. He said he didn't do a layered dissection of the neck, which would be necessary to determine the length of time that it took Josephine to die. So, OK, so there was like a pretrial hearing and then the actual trial. And Dr. Ozoa testified at both of them. At the pretrial hearing, he testified that it likely took several minutes for Josephine to die, that several blood vessels would have burst during this time. It would have been a kind of a slow process. Right.

She could have possibly been conscious for part of it, you know, whatever. At the trial, he testified she could have died as quickly as six seconds. Whoa. Yeah. And so the defense jumped on this and they were like, OK, so tell me how you can determine how quickly Josephine died through this autopsy. Six seconds. Yeah. Yeah, I. Six seconds. Yeah. Yeah. I have no idea. Okay. That seems just ridiculous. Yeah. Cocoa nuts. And so Dr. Gray testifies that he looked over this autopsy and that Dr. Azoa had not done a full neck dissection where he could have seen the different layers of her tissue in

her neck and known how many blood vessels burst, like what process she went through. And by doing that, he would have known that it would have taken much longer and that there wasn't damage done to her neck. This was a very, this was very in line with suicide. Asphyxiation through suicide was not in line with a homicide at all. A homicide would be very tight, very quick death. Dr. Gray also testified that Dr. Ozoa didn't take any photos during the autopsy, which is very standard operating procedure. It is required, in fact, in homicide cases. That you take a selfie. No, Kristen.

So it was his expert opinion that Dr. Ozoa didn't take into account the swelling of Josephine's brain, the tiny blood vessels that were burst around Josephine's eyes and face. This was all evidence that this was a slow death, which is in line by death by suicide, not by homicide. Yeah. He said, I have no idea what Dr. Azoa's motives were or what his thinking was, but from what he reported and the evidence, he did not do an adequate job was homicide. Trial lasted a couple of weeks and the jury deliberated for less than a day before returning their verdict. They found Nelson

not guilty. Oh my God. You had me scared. This poor man. My God. The family was overjoyed, they said. It felt like this cloud that had been hanging over their family had been lifted. Yeah, that would be unspeakably awful.

They couldn't even believe that it had gotten to this point. And they weren't the only ones. This guy, Charles Newman, who was the chief investigator for the medical examiner's office at this time, said that he could not believe that Dr. Ozoa came to this conclusion through this autopsy. He said there was no question at the time or now that Josephine Galbraith's death was by suicide. He said everything fit to me. He says that he remembers the details of this case so clearly because he just felt so strongly for this family. Well, yeah. That this was a horrible thing.

And then for it to escalate to the point of Nelson being arrested and tried for her murder. No, I cannot. I cannot imagine. No. Yeah, he was 80 years old when he went on trial. Good God. Yeah. So Nelson was acquitted and that was kind of the end of that. But Nelson wasn't fucking done.

Nelson was pissed. Yeah. And so he decided to sue the county and Dr. Ozoa for $10 million. Okay. Yeah. He had Josephine's body exhumed and he had an independent autopsy done by Dr. Gray, the Utah medical examiner. Yeah. He had to pay $10,000 to have her exhumed and to have that private autopsy done. And when Dr. Gray completed that autopsy, he said there was no question. Josephine had died by suicide. Oh, yeah. All of the proof was there and it had been there the entire time. Mm hmm. Everything matched suicide. And there wasn't a speck of evidence to lead to a homicide ruling.

Yeah. This civil suit stretched for 10 years. It was dismissed and reinstated multiple times through appeals. So Nelson filed it. The county filed for a summary dismissal. They actually didn't dismiss the entire case. They dismissed the portion against Dr. Ozoa saying he had qualified immunity in the case. OK.

And then Nelson appealed that. It was all brought back in. And then the county appealed it again. It was dismissed, reinstated, dismissed, reinstated. Oh, I hate this. And Nelson Galbraith died in September of 2002 before this reached any kind of conclusion. But his kids kept the fight up for him. They kept the lawsuit going.

Kept the fight up for him. They kept the lawsuit going. And in 2008, after 10 years, the county finally settled with the Galbraith family. And write them a formal apology. And officially changed Josephine's manner of death on her death certificate to suicide. I don't know that they got enough. I don't think they got enough at all. So it's interesting. I read the court record for some of these appeals on this civil case. And basically what the appellate court decided was that because the Galbraiths couldn't prove that Dr. Ozoa had done this maliciously, that he wasn't on the hook for this lawsuit. He could have been negligent and he was,

it was determined. They actually had him go before a grand jury about his job, his job duties. And he got this like official like admonishment for how poorly he had done his job. And then he resigned. OK. I mean, like that's all that happened to him. You just shook the entire table. I'm so sorry. I'm very fired up about it.

Yeah. So 10 years later, they got a $400,000 settlement. The family said that it was never about the money to them. They've actually used the money to help people secure quality legal defenses when they can't afford them. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. That's what was important to them is making those things accessible to people they might not have been accessible to. So that's what they've used the funds for. You know, just once I want to hear someone say that they did do it for the money. Right.

Yeah, absolutely. Because I honestly don't think that's a bad thing. No, absolutely. Do it for the fucking money. I don't care. Get a hot tub. Absolutely. And that is the story of what actually was a suicide and never a murder at all.

That was. That was really scary. Yeah. Oh, you've got the family. No, no evidence at all. You've got the family telling you yes she was suicidal we've got all of these instances we can all attest to it well and you said she'd been in a facility or the week a week before i mean yeah so you've got the family telling you but you've also got medical professionals yes but because you didn't like what she chose to wear when she did it and you've got a shoddy autopsy, this became something it never should have. What do you make of that detective? Oh, gosh. I don't really know. And in these appeals, they kind of went back and forth a few times on who to place the blame on.

Like, OK, was it the DA who shouldn't have made the charges? Well, no, because the DA was led that have made the charges well no because the DA was led that direction by this detective so was the detective well no because the DA the detective was led to a continuous investigation because the medical examiner put on the on the autopsy pending investigation so it's a big circle who do you blame it on yeah see it's funny to me when you were starting off the story what's that saying that's like when all you've got's a hammer everything's a nail yeah i i do wonder like if you're a detective you certainly don't want a murderer to go free no and i think that there is something to be said about all investigations start

as a homicide investigation until they can prove otherwise. But there was lots of proof otherwise in this case. And proof otherwise. I like that that second time you didn't even say otherwise correctly. I didn't. You know, on that note, I think we

ought to do another ad. That sounds great. You're so good at talking. Thank you. Doodaloo. This is an ad. Doodaloo. And now we're back from the ad.

Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. What was that? That was the music from coming back from the ad. From coming back from the ad? Oh, okay. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Get with it. You know what we should do now? We should take some questions from our Discord.

But how do you get in the Discord? Well, you silly Billy, you simply sign up for our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And you get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away with other skeezy skunches. And when we record, we ask if you have any questions. And then we read a few and we answer a few. And that's the way this happens.

Excellent. Ooh, my Perky Bosoms wants to know, which game show do you think you would positively kick ass on? This is for both of us, specifically. What game show would you kick ass on, Kristen? Double Dare. What if Double Dare was still a thing?

Would you go on Double Dare? Oh, God, I would hate that. What would I have to do? You don't remember Double Dare? Not really. Okay, it's like, okay, you got cut, you know, you got. Did you get slimed in that one? Yeah, you gotta like dig through you got cut, you know, you got... Did you get slimed in that one? Yeah, yeah, you gotta like

dig through the muck to find the flag. I mean, it might be up that guy's giant nose. Oh, yeah, no, I would not like that. You slide down the thing and through the thingies. No. Okay. Alright, so that's not the game show for you. I think it'll be easier if we go with you.

Who... I would love to, like, I think i would do good on like who wants to be a millionaire a trivia based show i while i would love to go on jeopardy there are certain areas of my knowledge that are very weak and i think that i might not do as well on jeopardy i'm not great with the history is that because every time someone tries to tell you a history story, you go, oh, fuck, are we talking about Monopoly? Wow. Painful.

No, I actually loved that episode. So while I would love to go on Jeopardy, I don't know that would be my perfect game. What game I would love, but it does not exist anymore, was this game called Debt that was hosted by Wink Martindale when I was, I don't know, 10 years old, probably. And it was like a general trivia game. OK. And people were were playing to get specifically their debt paid off.

And at the end, whoever had, you know, had scored the most points got to go to the final round. And if they won the final round, they had all their debt paid off. The final round was just like a single question, but it was over a specific area of their own expertise. So they got to say what it was. And usually it's like a pop culture thing. Like I'm an expert at the TV show Friends. And then it would be a very niche, specific question about that one thing they said they were an expert at. Okay. I think I could do that. What would be your area of expertise?

Okay, I've thought about this a lot. Good. Okay. There are several shows that I have watched multiple times, so I would pick one of those shows. I think I would go Schitt's Creek because I've watched it no less than ten times in its entirety, and I know the ins and outs of it. I think I could answer just about anything about Schitt's Creek. Pretty confident. I am.

But sadly, that game show does not exist anymore. Also, you know what game is back and I think I would do good at? We could do this together because I think you'd be good at it too. And it's a team game. Lingo. What's that? Okay, it's basically Wordle. Oh. Yeah, but I would freeze it's basically Wordle. Oh.

Yeah, but I would freeze up and you'd get really frustrated. No, not with me. And it's hosted by RuPaul now, so. Oh, my God. Yes. Should we go on Lingo together? No. You pick out balls, okay?

And you're basically trying to make a bingo on a big board, right? And to pick balls, you have to get the Wordle puzzle right. I can tell just by your energy right now you would be so into this. And, like, the more energized you get, the less energy I get. And I can just tell it would be bad. What am I, sucking your energy from you? There's something about people being competitive that I'm just like, you know what I'm going to do now? I'm going to lay back. And ruin

this for everyone. The way it works is we have to alternate turns, but I can whisper stuff to you. I won't hear it. Okay, great! Who wants to be my partner on Lingo? Because Kristen's out! Reach out! Do you have a

favorite font, Kristen? A favorite font? Okay. Wears t-shirt sometime. Wants to know best and worst typefaces. And I actually have thoughts on this. Worst? Comic Sans.

Sure. 100%. No doubt about it to me. I also don't like papyrus. I don't really like papyrus either, but it's less offensive to me than Comic Sans is. Especially if I see Comic Sans in some kind of professional setting. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing with your life? Where have you seen that?

Signs at a business. I've seen it on somebody's, like, actual business sign before. They went with fucking, like, their big lighted sign. They went with fucking Comic Sans. Was it a comic book store? No. Okay. And my favorite, now I don't know the name of because I don't call it by its name.

I call it Chester Copper Pot. And it's like copper. It's copper something. I know which one you mean. Honestly, when I'm just typing away, I'm just an aerial gal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's the most. Copper plate, I believe, is the. Yeah. Ch Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the most... Copper plate, I believe, is the... Yeah. Chester Copperpot. I call it Chester Copperpot. I like it. ClarkAdventures94 wants to know, would you rather do a crossword or

a word search? There's more. I feel like... But wait. I feel like Brandy would be crossword and Christian would be word search. Am I right? Yes. Yeah, 100%. Wow, that's good.

That's creepy. Yes. We reveal too much about ourselves on this podcast. It's creepy when I have to think to myself, what would I do? And someone else is like, no, no, no. No, no, no, darling. I know. Yeah.

And someone else is like, no, no, no. No, no, no, darling. I know. Yeah. Ooh, Skype Hollinsworth wants to know, what artist or band did you first see in concert? My first concert was NSYNC. I mean, we've answered this before, and I know people get jealous every time, but I'll make everyone jealous again. I attended a concert in Florida.

It was Backstreet Boys and NSYNC. Before either of them were like anyone. Together as one. Also Mandy Moore performed. I saw NSYNC much later. They were on the Dirty Pop tour and I saw them at Arrowhead. Mm-hmm. Oh my gosh. Okay, Christian Mingle Hoface wants to know,

Kristen, have you heard of the new show, MILF Manor? It's moms dating each other's sons. It's awful, and you'd love it. Okay. I don't often have to tap out of a reality TV show, but Norm and I had to tap out of that. I can't even handle the description of that show. It's terrible. You find out that it's all these horny moms and all their horny sons are there.

And the moms and sons have to, like, shack up together and also find love. No. We couldn't get through the first episode. Oh, my gosh. That sounds so terrible. I am sorry to say I'm too classy for it. Mmm. Eat a dick, Pluto. Wants to know... You said that so non-flatly.

Oh, eat a dick Pluto wants to know... Have you ever been offended slash hurt slash angry slash sad by something the other one has said on the podcast? Yes, I remember how angry and hurt I was when I found out that you don't wash makeup off of your fucking face every night. I still remember like it took it took a while for that to compute what you were saying to me. You don't wash your face at night. I'm sorry. I'm still offended. And what were my other options?

Hurt, angry and sad. Disruptions hurt, angry, and sad. The only way you can make it up to me is to develop cystic acne. So work on that. I'm guessing that's not happening. I'm 36 years old. I'm almost 37. I don't think like late in life cystic acne is a thing, is it?

Like developing it that late in life? No. Sadly, I don't think that's in the cards for you. You know, I'm still getting pimples though. Gives me a real youthful glow. Oh, okay. There is a coded question in the Discord this week, so I would just like to say that my favorite sundae topping is caramel sauce. Oh! Oh!

Yes. Caramel sauce. Very good! Very good! This makes me laugh High Priestess of Costco wants to know why are David and London never invited to the pre-recording lunch why Brandy is it because you hate them both yeah that's it

and you want a break from them no David's at work and London is at my mom's which which is her daycare. I personally think there's bad blood. Oh, I don't want either of these things. Julchica, Juletchica asked, would you rather have a dog shaped like a spider, all the legs, but they still got a dog face, or a spider shaped like a dog, little puppies that have webs that come out their butts? Ew, no. Die.

I don't want either of those things. I'm horrified. I am too. By all the options. I refuse to have any of that. And I hope you're happy because now we're going to move on to Supreme Court inductions and it's all your fault. Oh, shit. I lost my spot.

To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. And then we will induct you and we will read your name. And for now, your first celebrity crush. Are you ready? Are you at your spot now? Yeah, are you ready? I am ready. I don't see your little pink Kristen though.

Look harder. Kate Waters. Anne Hathaway. Lillian Gould. Zach Hansen. Ainsley Moven. T-Boz from TLC. Alanda Levesque.

Devin Sawa. Stephanie Pone. JTT. I was worried we weren't going to get a JTT in there. I know. Marissa. Jason Momoa. In all caps.

Big crush. Bailey Landis. Miles Teller. Jason Momoa in all caps Big Crush Bailey Landis Miles Teller I was just talking about Miles Teller at lunch today. It was really steamy. Carrie Facemire AJ McLean Susie

I'll allow it, Wilson. I'm menopausal. My only joy is y'all. Fuck a crush. That's what I've always wanted to hear. Absolutely. Janelle Mescal. Aunt Becky from Full House.

Ooh. Yeah. Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. She's the reason I went to college. Really? I'm so confused

by that. You know, when you listen back in the edit, you'll get it. That's so rude. Easy Dixon-sider. I've lost my place now because I'm so... Caitlin, you're on number 11. I got it. Caitlin Bader.

Jensen Eccles. Eccles? Eccles. Alright. He's from Supernatural. Okay. And, um, what's that other thing he's on? Listen, I've got a P. Okay, great. Boy, he's on the boys. Um... Bree!

Oh, sorry. Bree DeYoung. I'm sorry. I thought that was DeYoungJTT. You are... I thought she was like, DeYoungJTT! I like those early episodes of Tool Time. No, Home Improvement. Stephanie North. John Stamos.

Caitlin Washburn. Hilary Duff. Nicholas. No. Oh, shit. I thought that was his last name. I just fucked this whole thing up this week. Wow.

Way to go, Brandy. Nala from the Lion King. I will not be taking questions at this time. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please sign us

on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen, and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned.

And now a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the documentary Potty Town, as well as great reporting from nny360.com, the New York Times, and artsy.net. I got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder,

an article from Metroactive by Lauren Stein, the Mercury News, SFGate, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.