Let's Go To Court! - 247: The Murder of Maddie Clifton & a Triple Kidnapping

Episode Date: March 22, 2023

Brandi starts us off with a gut-wrenching story. On the evening of November 3, 1998, all eight-year-old Maddie Clifton wanted to do was go outside and play. Her mother gave her permission to go outside for a few minutes, so Maddie went next door to the home of 14-year-old Josh Phillips to ask if he’d like to play baseball. He did. Later, when Maddie didn’t come home, her parents panicked. Police and volunteers searched for Maddie for days before she was finally discovered by Josh’s mother. Then Kristin tells us about an elaborate triple kidnapping. Michelle Renee was at home with her seven-year-old daughter, Breea, when, seemingly out of nowhere, three men burst through the home’s locked back door. The men wore ski masks. They brandished guns. They’d even brought spears. They told Michelle that they knew she worked for a local Bank of America. They said that if she wanted to survive, she’d have to go into work the next morning and clear out the vault. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: 48 Hours episode, “The Kidnapping of Michelle and Breea Renee” “A mother was forced to rob a bank to save her daughter’s life after they were kidnapped and threatened with dynamite,” by Gayane Keshishyan Mendez for cbsnews.com “California mother who was kidnapped and forced to rob a bank falsely painted as a criminal in court: “100% felt like I was on trial”” by Tracy Smith for cbsnews.com “Hostage no more: Michelle Renee tells true story of kidnapping of daughter and self,” by Ruth Marvin Webster for The San Diego Union-Tribune “Suspected bank robber nabbed,” North County Times “Man convicted of kidnapping, robbery,” North County Times “People v. Butler,” casetext.com “Attorney: Bank chief plotted own kidnapping,” North County Times “Superior Court trial starts in bank robbery, kidnapping,” by Scott Marshall for the North County Times In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Maddie Clifton” chillingcrimes.com “Why Did Josh Kill Maddie Clifton?” By Malinda Fusco, Medium “19 years later, the narrative behind Maddie Clifton's demise gets even worse” by Eileen Kelley, The Florida Times Union “Life sentence upheld for Joshua Phillips, teen killer of Maddie Clifton” by Andrew Pantazi, The Florida Times Union “Wednesday marks 23 years since murder of Maddie Clifton” by Colette DuChanois, News 4 Jax “Josh Phillips” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 45+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a triple kidnapping. And I'll be talking about the murder of Maddie Clifton.

A triple kidnapping? I know. Calm down. Calm down. Put that lady boner away. Everyone, we are kind of professionals today. We've got those super professionals. We've got those fancy microphones. We've got boom arms for our microphones.

We want you to know that we here at the Let's Go to Court podcast take your feedback seriously. And we've heard you talking about, well, we've heard you talking about well we've heard you talking about how we bang the table and it shakes the mics this is our um best effort we're trying brandy you okay over there you're you're you're looking a little bruised i'm wonderful all right all right okay i do feel like everybody should know going in that this is episode two this week. Of three. Yes. Yeah.

So we recorded bonus episode Monday, regular episode today. We have our live show on Friday. What the fuck were we thinking? We weren't. Yes. I tell you, we weren't. My hair needs to be washed so badly. tell you we weren't um my hair needs to be washed so badly uh okay i washed mine last night purely because i need to color it before the live show on friday and i needed it clean before i don't

want you looking crusty let me tell you yeah no i'm i'm thinking ahead to thursday i'm gonna tint my eyebrows i gotta you know get yeah all beautified. Yeah. You're going to get lip fillers before then. Oh, my God. Can you imagine? What have you done? What have you decided? Like, before our live show, I'm just going to get just a little. Just going to get some real subtle tweaks.

Just a little under the comb, just with like. Well, yeah, because you know how I'll be. I'll be like, well, if I'm going to pay money for this, I want to see the results. Yes. Plump those poppies up. for this. I want to see the results. Plump those poppies up. Although,

I watched something today on TikTok that I thought was very smart. What? Okay, this lady went to her hairstylist and said, just a trim, I'm just growing out my hair. And the lady said, do you know why I'm growing out my hair? And the hairstylist was like,

no, why? And she said it was because she was thinking of getting a facelift. And she'd heard that if you're going to do anything like that, you should also do a drastic hair thing at the same time. So people think it's just the hair that's changed and not your face. Wow. That is interesting. So maybe I'll have a whole new face on Friday.

I think you may have missed the window to fit in a facelift before the live show. This guy seems really eager. He's willing to do it for $300. Should we tape our faces back? Like Cher does? Lots of people do it. I watched a whole TikTok about...

Are you thinking about taping your face back? No, I'm not really. But this lady doesn't like every day. That's ridiculous. Okay, where do I need to tape? Does she know we're all going to die one day? Where should I? Like, okay.

All right. I'm going to pull back in three different locations. So you tell me which one's best. Okay. All right. So I'm starting kind of low. Okay. Okay.

Okay. I'm seeing. Option one. All right. Okay. Option two, one's best. Okay. All right. So I'm starting kind of low. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm seeing. Option one. All right. Okay. Option two, a little higher. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Uh-huh. Okay. Option three. Definitely not option three. I don't know that option three actually accomplished anything. I would say leave your face as is. Oh, okay. That's not one of the options.

I know. I know. I can see how disappointed you are. Okay. So, yeah, we apologize in advance for this episode, which will no doubt be a shit show. No, we should talk about what we talked about in that bonus episode because all you have to do to get that is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And we talked about – Here's the thing. dollar level or higher and we talked about here's the thing it's not about what we talked about it's about the excitement of what almost happened what almost i

i did not almost poop my pants kristen was convinced the entire time that i was like one second away from pooping my pants i was never anywhere near pooping my pants all right no sign up and you decide. We've had a lot of episodes where you hear my stomach grumbling on the mic. My stomach did make some very loud noises, but I was just fine. I also did not go home and poop myself as you and Norm both did that night. Ma'am, please try to be classy, okay? We're trying to reach a real high end. High brow.

High brow. Yeah. And you just ruined it. Thanks a lot. Anyway. Anyway, what did we really cover? I covered the Sandra Melgar case. I can't tell people what I covered because if I did, no one would sign up.

It's really very interesting. But it was very sad. It was sad. Babies died. They did. Yeah. That's it listen to that now available on our patreon along with 45 other bonus no 44 other bonus episodes 45 total very good i don't want to there's no false advertising here complete transparency about what you get you don't get

brandy shit in her pants, but you almost do. There you go. I was nowhere near shitting my pants. And you know, you can sign up for higher levels on our Patreon. You get stickers. You get inducted on this podcast. That's right. You can get monthly Zoom calls.

You can get episodes a day early and ad free. That's right. Check it out. Patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. I just spat so hard. I'm so sorry. It hit me in the face. No, it would have if I'd been at another angle.

I've got these new glasses to block it. Yeah. All right. All right. Anyway, you want me to talk about a terrible fucking case? I guess. Okay. first of all i would like to give you know usually we give shout outs at the beginning i would like to shame two listeners who requested this case why did you do this one because i already okay i've

full disclosure i have started to do this case many times and then i was like stopped and fucking hate it. I'm not doing it. And then on these weeks where we do two, it helps if you already know some stuff about the case. So here we are. And it's Brianna and Fierce Mama Llama's faults because they requested it. OK. So don't just direct all hate mail toward them, not toward me, please.

Great. Also, this is a child murder, so I'm very sorry. Oh, my God. Okay. Also, shout out to ChillingCrimes.com. Most of the court coverage of this case comes from there. Okay. I hate this and I don't want to do it.

You know, normally you're not the one who stalls. I know. Okay. You're more of an eat the frog one who stalls. I know. Okay. You're more of an eat the frog type of gal. What does that mean? You never heard that before? No. Is that the same?

Are you feeling very distracted by all of the shit between us? Okay. So Norm put in these boom arms, but we don't really have the right table for it. Yeah. So we had to load up the table with all kinds of stuff. Like counterbalance weight. And it is. It feels like we're 22.

Yeah. And we just moved into our first apartment together. And now we're starting a podcast. No, what was I saying? Oh, yeah. Eat the frog. It's like that saying if you have to if your job is to eat a frog, just do it right away. You're so good at explaining this phrase kristen the idea is like if you've got something really bad to do just do it

just you know first thing you do if you got to eat a frog just do it right as soon as you wake up just get it over with oh i don't want to eat a frog so i guess i'll talk about child murder instead okay anyway i think you missed the whole point, but all right, go on. No, I fucking get it. November 3rd, 1998 started like any other day for eight-year-old Maddie Clifton. She'd gone to school that day, come home, done her chores, practiced her piano, and she anxiously awaited her mother Sheila's arrival at home that afternoon so she could go outside and play. It was election day,

so her mother got home a little later than usual as she had stopped to vote on her way home. But as soon as Sheila walked in the door, Maddie pounced on her. She asked permission to go outside. She promised she'd done all of her stuff, practiced her piano, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Sheila said yes, but told Maddie that she didn't have long. She was starting dinner, and the time had just changed with the end of daylight savings time, and so it was going to get dark earlier. And so she, you know, okay, go out and play, but you can only play for a few minutes. The Clifton family lived in suburban Jacksonville, Florida. There were constantly kids playing outside in their neighborhood.

And on this particular day, when Maddie got permission to play outside, she ran across the street and knocked on the door of her 14-year-old neighbor, Josh Phillips. Do you know this case? No. Okay. Josh came out to play, and the two started hitting golf balls in his yard. And a short time later, actually. Oh no, I do know this case. Oh no. I'm sorry. It took me. No, you're fine. A short time later, Maddie actually returned home to ask her mom if they had any more golf balls that they could play with. And her mom suggested that she

look in their front yard. They had like, I don't know, they called it border grass. And she's like, look in the border grass. I bet there's some loose golf balls in there. And so Maddie ran outside again. At about 6.20 that night, Sheila called Maddie and her 11-year-old sister Jessie in for dinner. But there was no sign of Maddie. Sheila began asking her neighbors if they'd seen Maddie, and a couple mentioned that they had seen her playing outside at some point that afternoon, but no one could locate her now. Neighbors started looking for her. They were just outside calling her name, but she was nowhere to be found. Yeah. At 6.33 p.m., Sheila called 911 to report her daughter missing.

So she calls, she reports her missing. While she's on the phone with 911, Maddie's father, Steve, actually arrived home. And there was like this moment of hope where Sheila was like, maybe she's been with her dad. Maybe he saw her out playing and just like picked her up real quick. And but that that hope was short lived. Steve had no idea where Maddie was either. And a massive search began for her that very night. It wasn't long before news of Maddie's disappearance made the news.

First it made the local news, then the national news. Maddie's face, this face of this adorable, freckle-faced eight-year-old girl with this little dark-haired bob with cute little bangs was all over the media. Hundreds of volunteers showed up to hand out flyers and search for Maddie. Police brought in search dogs and cadaver dogs and helicopters flew overhead. A makeshift police headquarters was set up on the Clifton Street. This is a massive search effort for this eight-year-old girl. At one point, Sheila Clifton recalled standing in her front yard watching the madness of this search go on. And she was in such a state of shock

that she couldn't believe that this could happen to them. She stood there and she says she just remembers like urinating on herself in her front yard. Yeah. Just from the shock of it all. Mm hmm. In the days that followed, thousands of flyers were handed out. Maddie's parents spoke to the media, appealed to anyone who may have seen anything to come forward.

They appealed to someone who may be holding Maddie. Just let her go. We won be holding Maddie. Just let her go. We won't ask any questions. Just let her come back to us. Right. And as the search moved on, the police, you know, started to question the neighbors, including the Phillips family who lived across the street from the Clifton's. Maddie had been seen by multiple neighbors that day playing with Josh Phillips. The police actually searched the Phillips house three separate times with their consent, but there was no sign of Maddie. They questioned 14-year-old Josh multiple times as well, but he said he played with Maddie that day and then gone inside. And the searches and the questioning yielded nothing. Seven days passed without any sign of Maddie.

Then on November 10th, there was a horrible development in the case. The neighborhood was still full of police and media. In fact, that very morning, Steve and Sheila Clifton had taped an interview with Good Morning America. It was like right after they'd wrapped up that recording that one of their neighbors ran out into the street calling for the police. It was their neighbor, Missy Phillips, who lived across the street, Josh Phillips's mom. And she told the police that she had found Maddie's body. Oh, my God. Missy told the police that she'd gone into her son Josh's room that morning with the intent to clean it. It was like a disaster, she said. And she said she was like

at home that day thinking about how he really needed to clean his room and how she thought that it was an overwhelming project. And so if she felt that way, he certainly felt that way. So she thought she'd go in and like give him kind of a head start. So she'd walked into his room and she was kind of contemplating where to start when she noticed what looked like a wet spot on his floor. what looked like a wet spot on his floor. Josh had a waterbed. And so immediately Missy was worried that his waterbed had started to leak. And so she pulled back the mattress encasement.

Okay, this is not a waterbed maybe in the sense that you might think. It's not like the loose bag of water. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, no, I know exactly. This is an encased waterbed. So it's got like basically a mattress lining around it and you open it up and there's like the water bag inside of that. Okay. So she pulls back like this mattress encasement to investigate like, okay, where is the leak? Like what's going on here?

And at first she noticed what appeared to be a white sock stuck beneath the waterbed mattress. And she assumed it was, like, dirty laundry of Josh's that had gotten stuck in there. But when she went to grab it, she realized it wasn't laundry at all. It was Maddie Clifton's foot. Oh, my God. Maddie was dead and her body had been entombed in the frame of her son's waterbed. Holy shit. Can you fucking imagine?

No. No. Missy did, I mean, the absolute right thing. She immediately got the police. She actually did call her husband first and was unable to reach him. And then she went out and got the police. Yeah, I don't think she can be blamed for that. Oh, not at all.

No, no, no, no. I think what she did would be really hard. Yeah. Oh, my God. I think that it might feel natural to, like, try and cover for your child. Yeah. But she didn't. She ran out and got the police and alerted them to what she had found.

When police came in and they removed the mattress from the waterbed, they found Maddie's body. She had been beaten and stabbed, and her body was badly decomposing. My God. Yeah. Missy's son, Josh Phillips, was in school when Maddie's body was found. Police went to his school and arrested him. found, police went to his school and arrested him. And after they took him into custody, he confessed that he had killed Maddie. He told police that Maddie had come to his house that day and asked him to come out and play. He wasn't supposed to play outside with the kids in the neighborhood when his parents weren't home.

supposed to play outside with the kids in the neighborhood when his parents weren't home. His dad was super strict, according to Missy and Josh, abusive. Yeah. And so Josh feared his father and he feared getting in trouble. But his dad wasn't home from work yet. And so he was like, yeah, I'll come out and I'll come out and play for a little while. He told the police that they had gone in his backyard and that they'd played baseball and that at one point he had hit a ball and it had hit Maddie in the eye. It hit her really hard. She'd started bleeding and she started crying. And he said he panicked when Maddie started crying. He didn't want anyone to know that he had broken his parents' rules. He was worried that someone would hear her and come looking and see what was going on. And so

he said, rather than get in trouble, he dragged Maddie into the house and took her up to his bedroom, where he hit her twice over the head with a baseball bat. Oh, my God. He then stuffed her body into the wooden supports of his waterbed. So it's like a platform frame, essentially. So it's like wooden base and then there's a big empty space in the middle. So that's where her body had been placed. Like empty space.

Right. In the middle. So that's where her body had been placed. After hitting her with the baseball bat and putting her body in, some time passed and he heard Maddie moaning from under his bed. Oh, my God. And so he pulled the mattress back and he had stabbed her twice in the throat with like a pocket knife. Oh. He'd then gone down like his parents had come home by now,

and he'd gone down and had dinner with his family, and then he'd come back up to his room, and he'd heard Maddie moan again. Mm-hmm. And so he pulled the mattress back again, and he stabbed her in the chest multiple times. And Maddie didn't make any noise after that. Josh then spent the next seven days sleeping on top of Maddie's body.

He used air fresheners and incense to mask the smell. And then he said he lived in a state of denial. He said that's how he spent most of his childhood, ignoring problems and hoping they'd go away was his coping mechanism. And so that's what he did. He pretended it hadn't happened and hoped it would all go away. He'd even been active in the search for Maddie. He and his parents both participated. Yeah. Yeah.

Joshua was charged with first-degree murder, and an announcement was made that he would be tried as an adult despite his age. He's 14 years old. I hate that. I do too. Despite his age, he's 14 years old. I hate that. I do, too.

They said that they would try him as an adult due to the heinous nature of the crime. You're an adult or you're not. Yeah, I agree. We'll get into that more as we get proceedings. Yeah. We'll get into that more as we get to the court proceedings. At this time in Florida, a first degree murder conviction held a mandatory life in prison sentence. Without parole? Without parole. Okay.

Correct. Luckily, Josh did not qualify for the death penalty because of his age. Wow. That's nice. Yeah. Despite the fact that Josh had confessed to the police, he did plead not guilty to first degree murder. Mm hmm. This case had been huge in the media. It had made, I mean, international. Of course. Yeah. huge in the media. It had made, I mean, international news. And so in hopes of, you know, ensuring Josh would receive a fair trial, the trial was moved out of Jacksonville across the state to another county. Which county? I don't know. Wow, Brandy. I apologize. I read it

at one point and never put it in my notes. So I apologize. Did he have any dogs? And if so, who named them? I don't know. He did have a dog. What was it named? I don't know. What type of dog? I don't know that either. My God.

My God. Terrible. Here's what I do know. What do you know? His dog's cage was in his room, and it was one of the reasons the police didn't think anything when they searched his room. And it smelled weird? Because it smelled, yeah. Boy, you really turned that back around on me, didn't you?

Are you glad you asked? No. I'm just trying to help you get through this as quickly as possible. Yeah, no kidding. How awful. Yeah, it's awful. Josh's first-degree murder trial began on July 6th, 1999. It was super short.

It lasted two days. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's unsettling. Yeah, it's interesting. They're so, okay. Let's just keep on moving. Okay.

The prosecution argued that Joshua had murdered Maddie. Like that wasn't up for question here. The prosecutor told the jury that Joshua was guilty of brutal first-degree murder of an eight-year-old child. of an eight-year-old child. The prosecutor in this case was Harry Shorstein, and he told the jury that Josh was guilty of three vicious attacks on Maddie.

He'd hit her twice with the baseball bat. Time had passed. He'd stabbed her twice in the throat. Time had passed. And he'd stabbed her several times in the chest. Right. The prosecution laid out for the jury kind of the story that Josh had told.

They'd been playing ball in the backyard. She'd started crying. She was yelling and screaming and Josh had said he didn't know what to do. And so he panicked and done this. Prosecution said that Josh had dragged Maddie into the room and then done whatever he had to to keep her quiet. The prosecution called multiple witnesses who testified to seeing Josh and Maddie playing in the neighborhood that day. One neighbor who was kind of like, I think it was like somebody's grandma that just like happened to be there. She didn't actually like live in the neighborhood.

Either way, she testified that she actually saw Maddie outside and that she noticed Josh like creeping up behind her. And so she'd watched for a minute because it looked concerning to her. But she'd watched long enough and decided it was just kids playing together. And so, you know, she'd gone about her day and hadn't thought much more about it. Had Maddie and Josh played together regularly? They had played together before. But there was, there was like a couple of incidents that had happened that had made

Maddie's parents uncomfortable and they had actually told her not to play with him anymore because he was considerably older than her I was gonna say that's a pretty big weird age gap okay so Maddie's grandmother lived like I don't know a street over a couple streets over she would often come over to Maddie's house and watch the kids while the parents were gone at work or whatever. And she asked Maddie's parents one day, like, do you know this kid across the street? And Maddie's parents have been like, yeah, you know, all the kids kind of play together, you know, whatever. And the grandmother had been like, well, I overheard a conversation that really felt inappropriate to me. And she said that she had heard Josh talking to Maddie and Jesse.

Jesse is Maddie's 11-year-old sister. So even – Oh, okay. You know, so there's an 8-year-old and an 11-year-old and a 14-year-old outside. Right. had told Maddie and her sister something to the effect of, I know how to have sex with a girl and not get her pregnant because I know how to use a rubber. Ew. Yes.

And so the grandmother had told this to Maddie's parents and they had been like, yeah, the girls don't even know what that is. That's definitely inappropriate. And so at that point, they had had a conversation with the girls about, like, not playing with him. He's too old. Like, let's play with kids your own age. Yeah. But for whatever reason, that day, Maddie had sought out Josh to play with.

Okay. The prosecution put up evidence that Josh had taken part in the searches for Maddie, despite the fact that he knew where she was the entire time. And the prosecution put several police officers on the stand who had been part of the investigation. They talked about how they had interviewed Josh multiple times throughout this week that Maddie was missing. During one particular interview, they'd actually interviewed him in his room. Oh, my God. And he had, like, laid across his bed while he was talking to them, which at the time wouldn't, you know, strike you as that odd.

But looking back now, it struck me as very odd. I think it would feel a little weird. Yeah, I agree that it would feel odd. So that particular time, the police had come to the house. They'd rung the doorbell. Josh had come to the door, and he'd said his parents weren't home and so the police had actually called josh's parents and asked them if they could speak to their son right and they had given them permission and so josh had like taken him in the house and they had i don't know who encouraged this to move to josh's

room but at for whatever reason they entered his bedroom and josh like laid across his bed with like his feet hanging off the edge and answered their questions while laying on his bed i wonder if he brought them there i i don't know honestly like okay this is a terrible comparison but you know when you're little and you're playing hide and seek and like wait no it's not hide and seek what what's the one where anyway basically you know what i'm trying to say to you is like you know where someone is you're not supposed to lead the other person there and yet you just do it because it's what you know yeah yeah i'm glad i took the time out of this to tell that amazing story. Almost as good as the eat the frog thing. Yeah. So good.

During that particular interview, they had asked him, you know, did you play with Maddie that day? And he admitted that he had. But at some point, other people had said, hey, I think this is why they interviewed Josh multiple times. Right. Right. Because at some point other people had said, hey, I think this is why they interviewed Josh multiple times. Right, right. Because at some point other people came forward and said, no, we saw him playing with her. And so then she was like – he was like, yeah, I did play with her, but I wasn't supposed to. That's why I said no. I'm not supposed to play with anyone while my parents aren't home. And then also I didn't – I wasn't supposed to play with her because of our age difference.

Right. Whatever. The police testified at trial that they had actually searched the Phillips home multiple times, but it had been a consented search. So it had been just a very surface level search. I have decided that these consented searches they do. They're no good. No. How many cases have you covered?

Multiple. When there have been consented searches. Yes. And someone's body is in the house. Yes, in the house. Yeah. They also searched a shed that they had like in their backyard. But again, that yielded nothing. The police also did testify about the odor that they

smelled in Josh's room when they interviewed him in there. And they said that he had a dog cage in there that had poop in it. And so there was also a bird cage like nearby that had two parrots in it. And so they were just like, yeah, this is gross animal smell. And it's a 14-year-old boy's room. And it's a messy ass room. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the technical term for it. Thank you. You're welcome. If the police called and said they wanted to talk to your kid, what would you do? Not without me there. Yeah. And probably not even, like, I don't even know that I would do it with me there.

I think not without a lawyer present. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's the right answer for anyone who's listening. The detectives who had done the investigation testified at the trial about one when Missy came to them and said, I found the body. So then they testified about going to the bedroom, making the discovery that Missy had made and the state of Maddie's body when they found her. Yeah. I listened to a clip of Maddie's parents speaking. Oh, my God. They because because of the level of decomposition, they were told by the medical examiner and then the funeral home that like you don't want to see her oh and so they

never got to see her like her dad said i never got to kiss my daughter goodbye yeah oh that would be so hard yeah i don't know if i could do it i i think I would. Oh, I don't know. I know. That's that's the thing. I'm I'm thinking the exact same thing. I'm like, I think I would insist. Yeah. But at the same time, if if these people are telling you, no, you really do not want to do this.

Yeah. the detectives also testified about how what josh had told them his story that they've been playing baseball you know the whole thing we've already talked about and how they didn't know that that really matched with what had actually happened really yeah there was no blood found in the yard there was no dirt found on Maddie's body, which would have been present if he dragged her from the yard into the house. There was no blood on the baseball that he claimed that they had been playing with, the one that hit her in the face and caused her to start bleeding. So they testified that they didn't think Josh was fully forthcoming with what had actually happened that day. Ugh. Do they think that he snuck up on her and dragged her into the house?

Like what the woman thought she was witnessing? We'll get into more about what they thought a little bit later. Okay. I'll keep my pants on. At the trial, there's no really other mention of what maybe happened other than to say we don't think we're getting the full story. The evidence doesn't really match the way he's telling it. Right. Okay. And that's important for you, the jury, to remember because he's going, the defense is going to argue that this was done in a moment of panic because he was afraid of his father. And we don't really believe that that's the case. Yeah. At trial, the state's medical expert testified about the multiple attacks that Maddie had gone through and how they could tell by the autopsy that there were time spacing these out.

There had been the attack to her head with the baseball bat, the stabbing to her throat, and then the stabbing to her chest. And that time had separated those things. So that did match. How can they tell that? Do you know? So the testimony that they gave was basically the blows to her head would have been fatal, but they would have taken some amount of time to be fatal. It would have taken, you know, 30 minutes is what they said for her to die from those blows to her head. And so that much time did not pass before she suffered the stabs to her throat, which perforated her windpipe.

And essentially that is what resulted in her death. She essentially like drowned in her own blood. Oh, God. Yeah. And then the stabs to her chest had actually happened when she was already dead. They had happened post-mortem. But I am in no way defending Josh Phillips here. I think it is not likely that he knew that.

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. And, oh, God. It's fucking terrible, and I'd like to not talk about the medical examiner's testimony anymore. I'm with you. Sorry. No, you're totally fine. Before resting their case, the prosecutor, Harry Shorstein, reminded the jury that based on the evidence that they had presented at this trial, that Joshua's version of events was unlikely. He pointed out the things

that I've already told you. There was no blood on the ball, which he said was the thing that kind of the catalyst to this whole thing. There was no dirt on Maddie's body or clothes. She hadn't been dragged across the yard, as he had said. And then the prosecution rested their case. When the prosecution rested their case, the defense immediately presented a motion to have the charges dismissed. That motion was denied. presented a motion to have the charges dismissed. That motion was denied. And then the defense took a very bold, unique strategy. They called no witnesses,

presented no evidence. They simply gave a closing argument. Oh, wow. Yeah. So they must have been saving everything for the sentencing phase, right? Well, if he's convicted of first degree murder, there's no question it's a mandatory sentence. Oh, my gosh. Well, what the hell are they thinking? OK, so this was their strategy. Their strategy was to focus and tell the jury that like, yes, Josh did something terrible. They in fact said he committed a monstrous act, but he is not a monster. Josh's defense attorney, Richard Nichols, told the jury, because of an act that began as an accident

and deteriorated through panic that bordered on madness, he engaged in a monstrous act. So he told the jury that obviously there's no doubt that Josh killed Maddie. Like that's fact. We know that as fact. That's, you know, not in dispute. But what is in dispute was what Josh was guilty of. The defense argued that Josh was not guilty of premeditated murder. Richard Nichols told the jury, the state wants to tell you that Joshua Phillips was a monster, but the evidence shows he's not a monster. Regardless of your verdict, Mr. Phillips has essentially forfeited his life.

I don't really know what he means by that. No. I'm so stunned by this because I would think you could at least get another medical expert to testify. Okay, go ahead. So it's interesting you say that because the defense had wanted to present some medical testimony. They did scans of Josh's brain and they wanted to present that to the jury and show that he had these markings on this scan that proved that he suffered from like an anxiety and panic disorder brought on by his fear of his father. And so that is proof that he acted out of fear and panic when he went to when he killed Maddie to cover up that he'd broken a rule by playing with someone while his parents weren't home. But that medical testimony was deemed inadmissible. The defense was

not able to present it. Yeah, I can see wanting to present that, but I could also see wanting to present, too, I'm wondering if someone could have disputed this idea that he attacked Maddie three separate times rather than all at once. Right. I'm only saying that because it seems like in so many of these cases, you can get two experts to disagree on anything.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. It just strikes me as so odd that they really wouldn't present much of a defense at all. Yeah. So the argument the defense put forward was basically he reacted in this way out of panic. And you can see that that is not logical. can see that that is not logical. And because this murder was a product of panic, that in fact by state law makes it not murder, but manslaughter. And so that's what the defense asked the jury to find.

They asked them to find Josh guilty of manslaughter. The jury deliberated for two hours. To find Josh guilty of manslaughter. Hmm. The jury deliberated for two hours. Wow. And they found Joshua Phillips guilty of first degree murder. Yeah. And because he was convicted of first degree murder, he was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. By this time, he was 15 years old.

He was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole at 15 years old. I hate this. And sent to an adult prison. No. I feel like we're going to get hate on this. I can feel it in my bones. We are not defending Josh Phillips here. But there is. I am.

I'm defending anyone this young. Yeah. Your brain is not fully formed. Yeah. And obviously he did something monstrous and it's terrible. It's absolutely terrible. But I think it's monstrous of our justice system to. You're sentencing a 14-year-old kid to death.

And I'm sorry. A kid doesn't do this shit in a vacuum, you know, or on a vacuum, as I almost said. Yeah. There's no way his home life was anything to be envied. No. So Josh appealed his sentence. In 2002, the Florida Court of Appeals upheld his conviction. And in December of 2004, Melissa Phillips, Missy, she went by Missy. I apologize. I've called her. I don't know. I've called Josh, Josh and Joshua. I've called Missy,

Melissa and Missy. Who knows? How formal am I being? I don't know. I don't know. You've got your suspenders on. So that really adds something. I don't have any suspenders on it. So in December of 2004, Missy Phillips began steps to secure her son a new trial. She stated that because of his age at the time, this sentence is unbelievable. His age should have carried more weight when determining his sentence. The other sad thing, and I guess if you've decided to try him as an adult, then this argument is irrelevant. But I think a lot of his actions, if they are close to what he was saying they were, is the product of immaturity. Oh, absolutely. And that's why maybe you shouldn't be tried as an adult. Yeah.

In November of 2005, the Phillips got kind of a win in the case when the Supreme Court of Florida said they would set a hearing to determine whether Josh should get a new trial. But it was determined that he would not. Can you fast forward to 2012? Hold on. Hold on. All right. Okay. In 2008, the original prosecutor in the case actually started speaking about it and how he had regrets. Oh, wow. Because he had learned so much from 1998 when this happened to 2008 about the science of how your brain develops and how he didn't know that then. And had he known that then, he wouldn't have sought a first degree murder charge for Josh because that would, if he was found guilty, which he was sure he was going to be like this was a solid case, the judge would have no choice but to sentence him to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

He spoke publicly and said that he wished he would have given the option of second degree murder. So there would have been more leniency available in the sentencing because he could not stand behind a 14 year old being sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. I'm stunned by this. I am. Absolutely. We never hear a prosecutor doing this. Absolutely. That's amazing.

Yes. But what was done was done. Oh, yeah. You'd hate to admit you made a mistake or anything. Make any changes. Okay, cool. So in 2012, as we all know, because we've talked about it many times on this podcast, the Supreme Court ruling of Miller v. Alabama came down and ruled that it was unconstitutional to sentence juveniles, to automatically sentence juveniles to a mandatory sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. So that ruling was made retroactive. So anybody who was sentenced to a mandatory life sentence

without the possibility of parole under, you know, as a juvenile, I'm so sorry, as a juvenile was able to appeal their sentence and it was up to the states whether or not they would get a resentencing hearing. So Joshua did that. He filed for a resentencing hearing. And in 2016, he was granted a resentencing hearing. And that resentencing hearing took place in June of 2017. And that resentencing hearing took place in June of 2017. Okay. So at thisissible. And so this is kind of the true, what the prosecution believes to be the true motive behind Maddie's murder that was not made public during the initial trial. Okay. Maddie, when her body was found, she was found naked from the waist down. Oh no. Josh had explained to the police at the time that her pants had come off, or she had worn shorts. They had come off when he dragged her body inside.

What they had discovered during the investigation was that Josh had some kind of potential obsession with the Clifton daughters, both Maddie and Jesse. So shortly before Maddie's murder, the Cliftons had had a break in at their house that they had reported to the police. They were sure that it had been a kid who had done it because like a window had been pried open and like some stuff had been gone through but nothing of value was missing from the house the only things that were missing was a staple gun which someone had walked through the house and like shot staples all over the house yeah and then the staple gun was missing and then a picture of Jesse Clifton in a dance uniform was missing from the home.

That picture was found in Josh Phillips' room when it was searched after Maddie's body was found. They also searched his Internet history, and he had been viewing violent pornography like as little as 30 minutes before Maddie was murdered. Oh, gosh. And so. Yeah, that's the story. The real story is that this was a sexually motivated crime. Well. All right.

What does that mean? Oh, I mean, it's not really about sex. It's about power. Well, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Oh. That's horrible. Yeah. Yeah, it's horrible. Well, so, OK, the funny thing about hearing that is now I'm like, well, if I were the prosecutor, I understand more why you're like, no, we're going for first degree. Although I'm still against the idea of a 14 year old being locked up without the possibility of parole for that. But, oh, God. Correct. So this was all the evidence that was given at the resentencing hearing.

Maddie's family testified to like their knowledge of all of this. So they knew all of that? Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Yeah. There had been one comment during closing arguments by the prosecution that they believed this may have been a sexually motivated crime.

That's why I used that term. But they didn't go into any kind of details. No evidence of that was presented at the original trial. It was just that one mention during closing arguments because the other stuff had been ruled inadmissible. His Internet history had been ruled inadmissible. But for whatever reason, it was admissible at this resentencing hearing. I don't know why. Yes. And so the prosecution asked that he be resentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And Maddie's parents asked that as well. They said, you know, Josh is here asking for a second chance at life. But where's Maddie's second chance? And I think that's a completely fair thing. Yeah, absolutely.

Completely understand it. Yeah. I think that's a completely fair thing as parents. Yeah, absolutely. Completely understand it. Yeah. The defense, though, at this resentencing hearing asked that Josh Phillips be sentenced to 40 years in prison with credit for the time that he had already served. So they weren't asking for nothing. Well, you can't ask for nothing.

Well, no, no, no, no. Yes. I actually think that's a pretty reasonable amount of time. I don't know. I think it seems fair. At this point, did the defense try to present any mitigating circumstances or anything? Or was it just, okay. No, not to my knowledge.

There was talk again about his home life and stuff like that. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, the same stuff that had been presented at trial about his dad being controlling and abusive and stuff like that. I don't know.

The thing that I found the most impactful about this hearing is that the prosecutor from the original trial, Harry Shorstein, he testified for the defense. Wow. And said that, yeah, no, he doesn't believe in sentencing a juvenile to life in prison without the possibility of parole, and that he wouldn't do that again today, and that this is the opportunity to correct it. At this resentencing hearing, Josh Phillips, for the first time, made a statement to the Clifton family. Really? And this is just like a little bit of what he said. He said, I don't pretend to know or understand your pain or to grasp the void I created in your lives. I can say this, though. I do understand pain. I have become quite intimate with suffering. Growing up in prison, I've seen many dark things

and I've seen some dark places. Many times throughout this journey, I came close to ending my life just to escape it all. And then he offered an apology to the Clifton family. You don't like it? No, I don't. Yeah. I don't care about you. Exactly. Like you're talking to her family. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. You, I mean, molested an eight-year-old and brutally murdered her and hid her under your bed. Yeah. Yeah. murdered her and hit her under your bed? Yeah. Yeah.

Following this resentencing hearing, Josh Phillips was resentenced to life in prison. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not surprised by that. One amendment to that, though, different than what he was originally sentenced with, was that that sentence would be looked at and reassessed after he had served 25 years in prison. So that will actually be in 2023. Oh, my God. They will reassess his sentence and see, do we need to resentence him now?

They said they will weigh his demonstrated maturity and rehabilitation at that time. I think he'll be staying in there a while. I do, too. Obviously, this case had major effects on both the Clifton family and the Phillips family. The Clifton family has actually spoken publicly about this and said that they feel terrible for the Phillips family. The Clifton family has actually spoken publicly about this and said that they feel terrible for the Phillips family. They know that they've basically lost a child too, and that's very difficult. I imagine they have a lot of respect for Melissa. Absolutely. For just coming right out and saying exactly what her son did.

Yeah. Sheila and Steve Clifton processed Maddie's death very differently. Steve wanted to not talk about it. He wanted to shove it away, maybe move forward like it hadn't happened. And Sheila wanted to talk about it. She wanted to constantly talk about it and make sure Maddie was remembered. And so they divorced not long after Maddie's death, which they had been married for like 25 years. They'd been together since high school.

It just had a devastating effect on them. Similarly, it had a very negative impact on the Phillips family. They, I think, ended up moving out of the neighborhood. Steve Phillips, Josh Phillips' dad, actually died in a car accident some amount of time after this. I don't know exactly how long after. Missy, like, moved out of the neighborhood, I believe. For the Cliftons, it was really difficult for Sheila to remain in that house and look at the Phillips house where her daughter had been murdered. And so she ended up moving in with her mom down the street, like a couple streets over or whatever, so she could still be close to Jesse because Jesse stayed in the house with her dad.

And eventually her dad moved out of the house and Jessie bought it from him. She said it was the place that she remembered Maddie the best. I cannot. Oh, my God. I cannot imagine. I can't either. Yeah, because you would have all those good memories in that house,

but to have the other place like right across the street. Oh, my God. Yep. So for now, Joshua Phillips remains incarcerated, sentenced to life in prison, and they will reassess his sentence in 2023. And that is the horrible story of the murder of Maddie Clifton. That was awful. Yes, it was. I think it's kind of wild that there was this evidence of this whole other motive in the crime that was never presented at the initial trial.

That seems very almost like paternalistic to me to be like, no, no, no, we're not going to go there. Yeah. I wonder why that was. I don't know. Because, I mean, I don't know. I don't know the reasoning behind not bringing that other than some of the stuff was inadmissible. I don't know. I don't know the reasoning behind not bringing that other than some of the stuff was inadmissible.

I don't know what could have been admissible in that case. But I mean, it makes the case fucking worse than it was terrible already. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe maybe there's some thought to out of respect to the victim's family. I wondered that we don't need to go down this road. Exactly. We don't need this to secure a conviction. Yeah. I think that's possible. I hated that. Anyway, that was terrible and I hated it. Thanks. You're welcome. You're great. You know what I think we should do now? Lighten it up and let's do an ad. Seamlessly transition into a peppy ad. That is correct.

And now we're back from the ad. Here we go. Brandy told a horrible, sad story. We'll never recover. So bad. Unless we go to a concert where Kristen's singing. This is worse. I haven't even shown you my dance. Oh, no, there's a dance?

Don't say, oh, no, there's a dance. I mean, oh, there's a dance. Oh, okay. Alright. Those things are really going wild over there. Yeah, I know. They can't help it. They can't help it.

You know, at this point, I'm a woman gone wild, right? I'm not really a girl. You're not a girl. You're not a girl. You're 37. Yeah, no. I see your gray hairs from here. You're all dried up.

That's what I said. You nailed it. No, I'm not all dried up because's what I said you nailed it no I'm not all dried up because I'm covered in hyaluronic acid that's right I have been doing hyaluronic acid

under my makeup I love it it's like a so in that sense you're wearing it for literally 24 hours a day huh

that's right yeah what kind do you use this is not an ad just the Neutrogena hyaluronic acid because I use the Neutrogena Hydro Boost. Oh, do you? I do.

That's the moisturizer I use. I put that on. I wash my face in the morning, wash my lashes, and then I put on my moisturizer and let that soak in. And then once I start to do my makeup, I do my hydrolyte acid. Hyaluronic acid. Wow. Well said. Well said.

Thank you. Do you have one of those little fans to dry the skincare products between steps or no? No. Do you just wait? I just wait. I do too. Like a chump. I know.

I know. But I've seen like, you know, drag queens will sometimes have a fan. I know. I know. But I've seen like, you know, drag queens I'm just sitting there in silence because I can't, my eyes are like taped closed, so I can't look and find something else to listen to. So I'm just like sitting there bored out of my fucking mind. And so like that's how I know it's almost done is when they do the little fan on the lashes. Hmm.

Do you ever worry that they're going to like do something unexpected? Like what? Poke your belly. I don't know. No, but there was. Okay. So I didn't see my regular lash artist was out of town last week when I got my lashes done.

And so I had to see someone else. And like there was this moment where I had definitely like fallen asleep a little bit. I usually do kind of, you know, drift in and out. And I woke up because I realized like she wasn't touching me. So I was like, the fuck's going on in here? And so then I like moved a little bit. Oh, yeah. She would know that you were alive.

And whatever the hell she was doing, she needed to cut out. I assume she was on her phone probably, right? She's probably texting someone. Probably taking pictures of you. Oh, no, I doubt it. Oh, maybe though. Maybe you're on some kind you. Oh, no, I doubt it. Oh, maybe, though. Maybe you're on some kind of weird fetish website. I hope so.

I'm already on that for balloons, balloons, balloons. And this one's BigLashes.com. Oh, yeah. Well, look at you. You're trying to be like me, putting on your lip product in the middle of the podcast. My lips are feeling a little chapped because I just talked for as fast as I could while telling that terrible story. That was awful. Okay, don't be mad at me.

I told you, be mad at Brianna and Fierce Mama Llama. You know, you can turn them both down. You can be like, oh my gosh, thanks for the suggestion. I'm not taking it. I did respond and I was like, yeah, I've started that one multiple times and it's terrible. Anyway. Okay. You gonna tell us about a triple kidnapping? Maybe I am.

You thinking about doing it today? Or? I was hoping we could talk about literally anything else. So tell us more about the little fan that is used on you in your eyelash appointments. Alright.

Here we go. First off, thank you to Lazy Lesbian in the Discord for suggesting this case. Huge shoutouts to the 48 Hours episode, The Kidnapping of Michelle and Bria Renee.

There are obviously some other sources, but 48 Hours really knocked it out of the park. Was that you hitting something with a bat? Obviously. I was knocking it out of the park. Actually, 48 Hours was. Okay. See, you don't understand sports like I do. Yeah.

Just let me know if you need any more guidance on this issue. Move on. All right. November 20th, 2000 was a quiet evening in the San Diego County, California home of Michelle Renee. Michelle was 35 years old and she scrolled too fast in her script and she lost her spot in the page. And oh, OK. We're back now. And she was a single mom to her seven-year-old daughter, Bria. OK, Michelle and Bria lived in this very cute, like aggressively cute ranch house in a remote area of East Vista, California.

They're the kind of views you just don't see out here in the Midwest. Money was pretty tight. They lived there with a roommate named Kimbra. I think she went by Kim. Okay. Obviously. Oh, I like Kimbra. Oh, you do by Kim. Okay. Obviously. Oh, I like Kimbra. Oh, you do?

Yeah. Hmm. I really like it. I used to have a client. She moved. It's not like she finished with me and was like, you know, fuck off. She just moved away. That's what she said.

Her name was Kimbrie, and I really liked that, too. She actually stayed in the area. She didn't. And I really liked that, too. She actually stayed in the area. She didn't. On that particular evening, Bria was, you know, just being a typical little kid. She was looking out the window and getting spooked by her imagination. What?

I think I might know this case. I bet you do. Is there a bank involved? Maybe there is. I love this case. I bet you do. Is there a bank involved? Maybe there is. I love this case! Okay. Is that what I'm thinking of? Is there a bank? Yeah. I'm so excited now.

Okay. I'm glad I could pep you up. I watched an episode of I Survived on this many years ago. Uh-huh. Yeah. Your memory is nuts. All right.

I also watched that episode of I Survived. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right. All right. So at one point she got scared and she called out to Michelle and said, Mom, there's somebody outside the window. So Michelle went over and checked just to kind of put Bria's mind at ease.

And, of course, there was no one there. Michelle assured Bria that everything was fine, and their evening just continued as usual. The next day, Bria went to school, and Michelle went to work at the local Bank of America branch. So there is a bank involved! Wow. Amazing.

Okay, so some sources say that Michelle was the branch manager and a couple other sources said she was the assistant VP of this bank. You know, bottom line, she'd worked her way up into a position of authority at this bank and her workday was pretty uneventful. Afterwards, she picked up Bria from school and they got home. And Michelle noticed that there was a Rottweiler hanging out around the house. She didn't think too much of it. She had a dog. Her roommate had a dog. This Rottweiler was probably some neighbor's dog who'd gotten loose. So Michelle and Bria went inside and the two of them cuddled up on the living room couch and played games together.

Game Boy, if you must know. I wanted to know. Was it Tetris? I don't know. Do seven-year-olds like Tetris? I liked Tetris when I was seven. Well, you were exceptional. You were always playing games with my heart.

You didn't say that like it was a compliment. So that's what they were doing. They were sitting there having a nice evening. And then out of nowhere, they heard this horrible, almost indescribable noise. It was incredibly loud, this bang. And before they knew it, three masked men entered their home. The men had broken down their locked back door. They were dressed all in black.

They wore ski masks with eye holes that they'd cut themselves. And each of them held a gun. They had spears, too. What? Yeah, a lot of the sources don't cover that, but I feel like that's a real weird detail that needs to be mentioned. Sure is. Bria screamed and ran. Michelle screamed too. Before she knew it, the men had grabbed her by the hair and threw her to the ground. They yelled at her, don't make us pistol whip you in front of your kid. Oh my gosh.

The largest of the three men got on top of Michelle's back. He bound her arms and legs with duct tape. The whole time Michelle was screaming at them, she didn't want them to hurt her daughter. She listened. She was face down, her limbs were taped together, and she heard the sound of more duct tape being unraveled. She listened. She was face down. Her limbs were taped together. And she heard the sound of more duct tape being unraveled. And she knew that meant that they were duct taping her daughter.

But Bria wasn't making a sound. Michelle was in a panic. The men immediately got to work establishing that they were the ones in control. They told Michelle that they knew everything about her. They'd been following her for months. They knew her habits. They knew she had a roommate. They knew where she liked to eat.

They knew her favorite ice cream spot. They knew where her daughter went to school. And most importantly, they knew that she was a branch manager at the local bank. They told her that she was going to help them rob that bank. And if she didn't, they'd kill her daughter and then they'd kill her. Oh, my gosh. They began peppering Michelle with questions about the bank operations. They told her they already knew the answers to the questions. They were just testing her to see if she would lie to them. They asked her, what time does Brinks drop off money every morning? Michelle answered everything as honestly as she could. She was

terrified. From her vantage point on the floor, she did her best to take in every detail. She noticed that one of the men wore black Doc Martens. She begged the men to just let her see her daughter. Yeah. Finally, they pulled her up off the floor and spun her around. And that's when she saw Bria for the first time since the men had broken in. She was face down on the floor, her hands bound by duct tape, with a gun pointed at the back of her head. Oh, my gosh.

She wasn't talking. She was just shaking. The men told Michelle that they planned to stay there all night to make sure she knew exactly what to do during the robbery the next morning. They had these very specific instructions. They told Michelle that if she didn't follow the instructions perfectly, they'd kill her and kill her daughter. And they'd be able to do it easily because they planned to strap dynamite to both of their bodies. One of the men, the apparent ringleader, showed Michelle the dynamite.

He showed her a small device that looked kind of like a doorbell. He told her it was a detonator. One false move and she and her daughter would be disintegrated. He laid out all of his instructions. They expected her to go into work the next morning and fill a duffel bag with money from the vault. She needed to work quickly and precisely. They wanted the money grouped in a specific way so that, I assume, it would be easier to divide up amongst them. How much money did they think she would be able to get from the vault? You know, that I don't know. How much money is enough payoff to make this risk worth it? Because you're not just pulling off a bank robbery. You're also you are kidnapping. And I mean, you're this is life in prison if you're caught.

Right. Most likely. Yeah. I mean, you're terrorizing a single mom and her child. OK. How much would you guess they're going to get out of this? how much would you guess they're going to get out of this? See, that's the thing, is that we know that bank robberies don't net that much money usually. They really don't.

They really don't. Because we've covered so many. We know that. That's why I just like, how much money do they think they're getting out of this? Yeah. $25,000? Oh, they're going to get a lot more than that. $100,000?

More than that. All100,000? More than that. All right. But still. I mean, by getting the bank manager, you're getting access to the vault, which is where the real money is. I get that. But you're still having... Fuck. Okay.

All right. Continue. The only amount of money I've been truly impressed with was that one guy who worked for Brinks. Yeah. And he stole it directly. But, I mean, that guy was too stupid to know he was a mastermind they knew that banks keep some traceable money on hand because they were big fans of the let's go to court podcast. How is that possible? We were in high school back then. They're also time travelers. So they warned Michelle

that she'd better not give them any traceable money. They actually called it funny money, which I think sounds silly. I'm just saying, if I had a gun... Did they say it kind of flirty like that, Kristen?

I think you're required to. No, I'm just saying, like, if I had a gun and a spear, I think I would use tougher language. What is with the spears? The gun's not enough? And the promise of dynamite? Okay, so there are a couple different stories on the spears. And I am a little pissed at 48 Hours for not mentioning the spears. I don't blame them. You're limited to how much time you've got and also and it does it does feel kind of like

and also spears right and you've got to go into more detail on that sure do all three of them have spears you know i assumed okay you don't want to be the one guy without a spear. Am I right? Mm-hmm. Are these purchased spears or did they fashion them themselves? You know, I'm not sure. Is there a spear store? I guess I assumed these were purchased. Where do you purchase a spear?

Well, I don't own any myself, Brandi. Do you think like a sporting goods store for like spear fishing? Oh, yeah. You hop on down to Dick's, get some spears. You say, this is definitely not going to be used in a kidnapping and robbery. This is just for normally normal use, whatever we spear lovers have. We're spear fishing. Okay.

Here in California. Tropic fish. I don't know. I read one guy said that they used them. Did I just say tropical fish? I don't know. Yeah, you did. We were all with you.

We're like, we don't know. We don't know about the spears. So one of the guys said they had been worried about the dogs, you know, because Kimbra and Michelle had two dogs. And so one of them had brought their Rottweiler, you know. There's a Rottweiler here, too? Brandy, when I said that when she pulled up to the house, there was a Rottweiler she'd never seen before. She didn't think anything of it. Well, I didn't know it belonged to the guys.

Well, I'm telling you now. So they bring the Rottweiler, but evidently... They brought guns, spears, and a Rottweiler? Plus, is dynamite actually present, or was that just like a threat? How about you wait for it, wait for it. All right. Anyway, we're...

All right, cut that, Patty. Bleep it. B for it. All right. Anyway. Cut that, Patty. Bleep it. Bleep it. She's out of control, Patty. My God. No, what I'm trying to tell you is the spears. Okay.

So they brought their dog. Yeah. As like an extra measure of protection. But the three dogs just got along great. They played together. But apparently they brought the spears. Did you just make that up? No.

For real? Make it up? Yeah. I like, what do you, what do you mean? They didn't know that there was like a kidnapping

and everything going on. They were just, the dogs, I mean, Kristen. The look on your face just now. Well, I don't understand what you're asking me they were just playing while all this is going on we got two innocent dog and a criminal dog just like

hey hey just because his dad's a criminal doesn't mean he is no one of the guys evidently said that they brought the spears to help them deal with the dogs, I guess. No, okay. I don't know. Seems really weird to me. I agree. There's going to be another story about the spears later, and you decide what you believe. Okay.

Okay? All right. Okay, funny money. Yeah, no funny money sure all right they said it really flirty they did okay some of us can't help it some of us are so cute all the time that we don't even know we're flirting okay i will say someone made a comment about you being flirty on a recent episode and i was like i didn't notice it it. Really? Yeah. What'd I say? I don't know. Was I using this voice? I think maybe that person was wishing I was flirting with them. It all makes sense, doesn't it? Did they say I was flirting with you? They just said you were extra flirty that episode.

Maybe I had a little hitch in my giddy up. You don't know. Who knows? You never know what I've got in my giddy up. Woodland creatures. That's disgusting. Oh, anyway, were you looking at my FUPA earlier? I thought I caught you peeking at my FUPA.

When? Just now. Evidently not. No? Okay. I mean, I can't even see it. I can't see below your second button button. Oh, all right.

Too bad for you. Missing out on some FUPA. Everyone, I'm trying to get better and be more modern and do the front tuck on my shirts. Yeah. I think it looks nice. Well, I do too, but the catch is the foopa is. You have like no foopa. That's incorrect. It's non-existent.

There's a foop. Anyway, I'm fine with it. Am I? Body neutrality, my friends. So anyway, back to this story. Quit asking about my fupa. Michelle was terrified. She was willing to do whatever it took to keep herself alive and her daughter alive.

So she's like, okay, you know, fine. You want me to rob my own bank? All right. These men were terrifying and they were organized. A couple of times, the main ringleader. Why did I say main ringleader? You just say ringleader. No, there's only one ringleader in training. So that guy would step away and use a walkie talkie to communicate with someone else. Someone who was monitoring the house from the outside. The men said they had a team of six people outside the house.

Michelle tried to... What? Well, that is ridiculous. Okay. Mm-hmm. Everybody gets $5. Exactly! We're splitting this

all nine ways? Mm-hmm. Plus, how much does the Rottweiler get? Hey, that Rottweiler's having the time of his life. There's not really six guys outside, are there? That's just like a ruse.

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I just can't imagine wanting to split your hall nine ways. And like that's way too many people involved because, you know, people talk and like just sounds like you're going to get caught if you got nine people involved. What if you've got eight really, really good friends and you can't bear to not include all of them? Yeah, I've seen that wedding. That's exactly what I was thinking. That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah.

So Michelle listened in every time they talked on these walkie-talkies, and she heard a woman's voice. The woman referred to the man as Money One, and he referred to her as Money Two. So he is the main ringleader then. I mean, if that code is to be believed. Sure. Yeah, why not believe that? Yeah, all right. One and two, we all understand who's more important here.

Also. Maybe he's money pee and she's money poo. That is stupid. You're welcome. Okay, so, again, 48 hours doesn't go into this. Are you having regrets about that stupid thing, Patty? Don't let her cut it later. She'll come to you and be like, you know, I thought about it.

That was really dumb. Don't do it. Say, oh, I lost my delete button. She lost her delete button? Tragically. Popped off when she was playing with a spear. Anyway, the 48 Hours episode

does not really get into this, but according to other sources, there was also a Money 3. Oh. So, you know, there's people. Okay. Maybe. At any rate, at around 11 p.m., the walkie-talkie went off. It was Money 2.

She warned Money 1 that Michelle's roommate had arrived home. She said, car coming up the driveway. The roommate's there. So Michelle's roommate, Kimbra, had been at a party that night. She'd been drinking. And Michelle said that when Kimbra came into the house, she was intoxicated. Yeah, the men grabbed her right away.

And Kimbra yelled and fought. And one of the men put the gun up her nose and said, don't make us fucking use this. Oh, my gosh. At that point, Michelle must have gotten up. She tried to kind of push the guy's hand out of Kimbra's face. Do you mean like up to her nose or like was it inside a nostril? OK. One of the sources said up her nose.

And I thought, okay, they just mean to you. Yeah, like it pushed her nose up a little bit. Everybody else kind of, I don't know. I don't think it's fit. I don't think you can get a gun in your nostril. You think these guys are being gentle with it? They brought spears. Okay.

Yeah. All right. I don'tars. Okay. Yeah. I don't know. Okay. Calm down. Pretty angry over there. Well, they're not going to gently I imagine, yeah, they like shoved it. Well, yeah, exactly. That's up your nose. No, ma'am. Nothing entered my nose

just now. Okay. Okay. Agree to disagree. So Michelle must have gotten up. She tried to push the guy's hand out of Kimbra's face. She said, don't do this. Don't hurt her.

And he turned the gun on Michelle and said, don't ever fucking touch me again. Oh, shit. The men duct taped Kimbra. So now Michelle, Bria and Kimbra were all being held hostage. At some point, the men allowed Michelle to sit next to Bria on the couch and she stroked Bria's hair and wondered if it would be the last time she saw her alive. Oh, my gosh. Later, Michelle told the men that she needed to go to the bathroom. And the ringleader said that he'd take her. So this whole time, Michelle had been in observation mode.

She reminds me of you, like weirdly observant. Mm-hmm. And kind of smelly. That's rude. No, just weirdly observant. You always smelly. That's rude. No, just weirdly observant. You always smell good. If there was any chance she could make it out alive, she wanted to be as helpful as possible in catching these guys. So she went to the bathroom, flipped on the light, and for the first time, she got a good look at the ringleader's eyes. time she got a good look at the ringleaders eyes they were bulgy kind of red kind of watery and she realized she'd seen those eyes before whose eyes

were they he'd been at the bank earlier that day. So internally, she's freaking out. She's like, those eyes were at my desk. Those eyes were at my desk today. Oh my god. I'm slightly concerned because all of those things can be signs of Graves' disease. So I hope he's not silently suffering from Graves' disease.

But also, he shouldn't be pulling off this kidnapping and bank robbery. I like the idea of you showing up here. And you're like, sir, I'm concerned about your health. But also you busted down this woman's door and you're holding a seven year old hostage. That's how that's your tone. Absolutely. And everyone's like, Brandy, you can take a harsher tone. And you're like, I myself suffer from Graves' disease.

It can make a person do wild things. That's what the runaway bride said. Remember? I do remember. Yeah. She said she ran away because of Graves' disease? Yeah. Yeah.

Yes. Does that make you even more proud that you showed up to your own wedding? That's right. Well done. I was waiting for you and your bulgy eyes to buzz out of there. My eyes aren't bulgy. I don't suffer from that particular symptom. I could use a little bulginess.

Okay. I was about to say that, but I thought that would feel insensitive. No. No. My eyes are a little on the small side. My eyes got squinty eyes. I could use a little bulge in there. No, I don't want the red and the watering.

No, no. I don't want either of those things. But I'll do with the bulge. Yeah. Everyone, we're staring at each other big time. With our eyes as wide as we could make them. So the interaction with that man that day had been weird. It had stood out to Michelle. He'd sat at her desk for like an hour that day. He had said he owned a photography business and he'd asked her a bunch of repetitive questions.

All under the guise of being a potential customer. He had? Mm-hmm. Well, that's really stupid. I agree. Yeah. This is the ringleader who did that? Just shows you don't always have to be the smartest guy to be the ringleader.

Reach for the stars, folks. Yeah. Really dumb, right? The day you're going to do this, you go and spend an extended amount of time in the bank questioning the woman who you're about to kidnap and forced to rob her own bank that's stupid also and i think i saw this in the court record that he this is this oh my god it's so fucking bizarre he said something like and who knows i mean maybe this is true um nice bank you got here sure would be a shame if something happened to it.

Okay, we're getting to that. This is a little more weird, though. Okay. He said something like his son's mother had been a model in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, and she had died, so now he was getting an insurance payout, so he was going to come into some money. I mean... What? Again, didn't write that part down, just saw that somewhere.

That is the weirdest thing. Yeah, and it makes you super memorable. Absolutely. It's the weirdest fucking thing to say. Because if nothing else, you're like this guy with these bulgy, sad eyes. Yeah. Banged a supermodel. He didn Yeah. Banged a supermodel.

Okay. He didn't say she was a supermodel, but at the very least she was a swimsuit model. I mean, if you're in the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition, you're doing all right. Yeah. At one point, he asked one of the bank employees whether the bank had ever been robbed. He asked one of the bank employees whether the bank had ever been robbed. Okay, so he did all but say, nice bank you got here. Anything bad ever happen here?

Like, for example, has your bank manager ever been kidnapped? Just spitballing. Finally, after about an hour, a woman came in. She'd been in the bank the day before. The man introduced the woman to Michelle. He said, this is Lisa. And Lisa said, Chris, we need to get going. And they left.

But before they left, the guy handed Michelle his business card. What? Unbelievable. Oh, my gosh. Why? Yeah. Why would you do that? Okay. Okay.

She tucked it away in the top right drawer of her desk and went about her day. And now here she was, certain that that guy was the ringleader of these gunmen and that the woman who kept talking to him on the walkie-talkie sounded like the woman who'd come into the bank and told him that they needed to go. Yeah, probably money too was like, what the fuck is he doing? He's going to blow this whole thing and was like, get the fuck out of the bank. Right.

Like it was probably never any part of the plan for her to enter the bank that day. But she'd been in the bank the day before. Like, I don't... You've got 12 million people who are part of this thing. Send in two different people. Yeah. You want the job done right, you've got to do it yourself.

They were picking up the spears that day. Everybody had a task. Their spear guy was behind on the job. That's right. They had to go store-bought. They didn't like it, but they did it. How do you arrive at like, okay, we got guns, we got masks, we're all going to, you know, whatever. And then I just really feel like we need someone for the other hand.

Like who threw out the idea of Spears? I'm not really sure because, yeah. Well, I mean, it probably would be good for keeping dogs at a safe distance from you, right? Sure. All right. So then it's a great idea. I don't think so. I think it kind of makes sense when you think about it like that, right?

Okay, no. No, Kristen. Yes, Brandy. Because a sharpened broom handle would have a similar effect. It was probably much easier to procure than a spear. Well, I happen to know that they used up all their broom handles. I'm doing what? You will

find out later. What? It's very weird that you said that. Okay. But it is true that all their broom handles were disposed of. Not disposed of.

In use. Indisposed. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. They were busy that day. The broom handles had a prior engagement. That's right. So.

They were shooting a scene for Fantasia. God. And everyone was like, we're good. We're good. No one needs a remake of that shit. Can we burn that? But people like Brandy said no. Said, oh, I always liked Fantasia.

I did not like Fantasia. Oh, okay. I thought you were just like. No, oh, I always liked Fantasia. I did not like Fantasia. Oh, okay. I thought you were just like. No, you think I'm a Fantasia apologist? Absolutely not. I mean, you like some weird shit. Not Fantasia. My grandma used to put that on for us and I thought it was the most boring fucking thing ever.

It was awful. Yes. Mm-hmm. You know how they have like all those all those racist old, like, Disney movies? Yeah. I feel like we should just label Fantasia as racist and then get rid of it. Great. Can't we just, like, categorize it as that?

Like, oh, no, I'm sorry, I can't watch it. It's super racist. It should go the way of the sound of the South. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Okay. How do we ensure that no one else has to be subjected to Fantasia? Anyway, so Michelle recognizes this guy, but she can't let on that she's recognized him.

So she's trying to just act normal. Yeah. And as she used the bathroom, she counted the tiles on the bathroom wall so that she knew how tall he was. Oh, my God. that's so smart. Yeah, right? Yeah. At around 4.30 a.m., the men allowed Bria and Michelle to lay down in Michelle's bed.

But they were monitored the whole time, of course. And when 6 a.m. rolled around, he told Michelle to get up. He said, it's time to get ready for work. Michelle did as she was told. He told her to wear a loose-fitting top so that the dynamite wouldn't show through. She got dressed. She blow-dried her hair with him watching her. And at some point, he unplugged the blow-dryer and said, that's good, which is rude. That is rude.

Also, he's kidnapped her, so probably he doesn't care about rudeness not a polite move kidnapping someone i agree brandy traumatizing someone for the rest of their life yeah not nice no he told her it was time to strap the dynamite to her body. The men strapped one set of dynamite to Michelle's back, one set to Kimbra's back, and one set to Bria's back. Oh, my gosh. One false move, and all three of them would be dead. They put Bria in her bedroom closet,

still bound in duct tape and strapped with dynamite. I believe that's also where they put Kimbra. And then it was time for Michelle to leave and rob her bank. Before she left, the ringleader told her, you have 10 minutes to say whatever you need to say to your daughter, because this will be the last time you see her if you mess this up. Oh my gosh. This was horrible. Michelle told Bria she was perfect, that she was everything she'd ever wanted in a child. And when it was time for Michelle to leave, Bria had a meltdown.

She'd been terrified into silence this whole time. And now that she realized Michelle was going to leave her there, she cried and screamed for Michelle to stay. Michelle tried to calm Bria down, but she said that was when she became almost robotic. Like she had a mission. She needed to do exactly what these men had told her to do in order to save her daughter's life. Two of the gunmen stayed in the house with Bria and Kimbra and the ringleader went with Michelle. He gave her a briefcase.

Inside it was a duffel bag. Which, if you saw... Seems like overkill. Just give her... Oh, because she can't be carrying a duffel bag. I get it. Yeah, but even then,

I mean, if you saw someone... Carrying in a briefcase who doesn't usually bring a briefcase to work? No one usually brings a briefcase no one usually brings a briefcase although this was 2000 were people still carrying briefcases yeah i think my dad all right fine i'll let it slide michelle i think my dad still carries a briefcase what yeah what does he have in there i don't know no. No. Is it more than papers? No. I don't know.

I think he's... Tim Pounds, reach out. Yeah, I think a backpack would probably do him just fine, but... No, he's got a briefcase. Is it full of crackers? I bet he's just got snacks. Don't you think? Yeah, there's probably snacks in there. There's an...

I think he's got a change of clothes in there in case he has to paint and he gets all sweaty. In a briefcase? Yeah. That's a real fancy case. Yeah. For a change of clothes and some saltines. That's what I'm picturing. Yeah.

So that's also what David takes to work every day. But he takes his in a backpack. Right. Yeah. Because he's a modern boy. That's right. Maybe your dad feels like he can't have a backpack because he's the boss. He's the boss. Yeah. He's like, I got to take a briefcase because he's the boss. He's the boss.

Yeah. He's like, I got to take a briefcase because I'm the boss. Yeah. So 10 pounds. Fun fact. Everybody get out your journal. Carries a briefcase. What does he wear to work?

Jeans and a t-shirt. Jeans and a t-shirt. And he carries a briefcase. Yeah. He carries a briefcase. Yeah. It's not. Okay. All right. I'm picturing leather. It is leather. Yeah. He carries a briefcase. Yeah. It's not. Okay.

All right. I'm picturing leather. It is leather. Yeah. But it's a soft leather. It's a rounded edges. It's not a squared. Okay.

It's not a, it's not a hard shell. Oh, all right. Okay. That. Does that change things a little bit? It changes things a lot. I was picturing him in one of those real square jobbies. Very formal. little bit it changes things a lot i was picturing him in one of those real square jobbies very formal like the kind you see a man in the 50s wearing a suit with and yeah okay yeah all right

and i would bet he just calls it his bag i got my bag he doesn't call it his pocketbook no i explained to someone the other day that that's slang for vagina. How did that come up in conversation with anyone other than me? OK, so, OK, it started with coin purse, which is also slang for vagina. And so my sister Kim was telling me that she doesn't like the term coin purse or pocketbook. And I was like, is it because they're slang for vagina? Right. And she was like, no, what?

She had no idea. Kim, come on. I was the only one in the salon that day who had heard those terms before. In that. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. In that way. Well, okay, you do have to be a bit on the older side. Yeah, it's an older term, yeah.

But, I mean, Kim's in our age group. We're the exact same age. She's eight days younger than I am. Oh, that eight days makes a difference. In those eight days, things changed drastically. Major pop culture references. Gone. All right.

Interesting. Yeah. Okay. Well, I guess we'll get back to this. I can't stop thinking about your dad in a casual outfit with a very formal briefcase. He doesn't have a formal briefcase. Could we get him one on the podcast? Engraved.

Absolutely. And on the inside, it's like fun upholstery. Oh, like, okay. I'm thinking like casino carpet. Oh, okay. Brightly colored. Uh-huh. A bit of a pattern.

Okay. Well, I was thinking just like the bottom line is you pop this thing open and all of a sudden it's clear. It's real casual in there. Yeah. There's a Lunchable tucked in the side of it. Oh, sure. Is there a Lunchable compartment? Yeah.

Duh. Yeah. Okay. A Capri Sun has oopsies spilled. Well, that's unfortunate. It's too bad. These things happen. Where's his Go-Gurt go?

He's already eaten the Go-Gurt. My dad would never. Why not? I don't know. I just can't picture me eating a Go-Gurt. Here's the thing. You don't want to picture anyone eating a Go-Gurt. It's disturbing.

What do you think? My dad's deep-throating a gogurt? Okay. How dare you say that? How dare you even say that? That was the vibe you were putting off. No. Kind of. But, like, I'm just saying, like, you don't want to picture another adult eating a gogurt.

You don't want to see that on anybody picture any adult eating go-gurt it's disturbing all the time myself eating a go-gurt and it looks like i'm having a great time picture me eating a go-gurt yeah you look like you're enjoying it it brandy you would be so uncomfortable slash laughing so hard if you came over and i was just sitting casually in my living room sucking on a gogurt true or false i don't think i think it was that weird okay so we're lying to each other today, I see. Anyway, so they give her a briefcase with a duffel bag in it, which she would fill with money. I don't know why I felt the need to include that. Thank you for spelling it out so clearly for us, Kristen. Because, you see, the motive here had been the money.

I've been wondering what the end game was. For spelling it out so clearly for us, Kristen. Because, you see, the motive here had been the money. Oh! I've been wondering what the end game was. They were like, you fill this fucking duffel bag with printer paper. So Michelle got into her Jeep, and he hid in the back seat. She pulled into her parking spot at work, and he told her, don't fuck this up. She got out of the car with the briefcase and tried to act as normal as she could. She had dynamite strapped to her body and she was sure she was being monitored. She couldn't afford for any of her employees to know what was going on.

At around 8.50 that morning, the Brinks truck arrived and Michelle and another employee entered the vault oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i have something in my eyeball do you need to look in the mirror no i think it's an eyelash anyway i apologize i'm not used to this mic being right in front of my face like this kind of dong like is yeah it is just like hanging and it's like neatly cradled okay sorry i apologize for that why are you so apologetic it looks like you're winking at me no my eyes just bothering quit flirting with me oh my gosh brandy seems extra flirty this episode oh you're so apologetic well I don't want to anger the people with my mic hitting. I mean, we make a lot of people angry. That's true.

Some of it can't be helped. That's right. Some of it is just our personality. That's 100% correct. We try to fix the things we can fix, like microphones, but our personalities are permanent, I'm afraid. That's where they are. So at around 8.50 that morning, the Brinks truck arrived, and Michelle and another employee entered the vault. The vault had dual controls, so she had to be in there with another person.

And that other person was about to watch her rob a bank so michelle whispered to her i'm getting ready to clear out this vault or my daughter and i are gonna die she told her everything that was happening michelle lifted her shirt to show her the dynamite that was taped to her body. And the woman started to panic. So then Michelle was in this weird position where she had to come down. Oh, my gosh. And she's like giving her a pep talk like, hey, hey, don't worry. You got this.

I'm just going to get this money and you're going to wait until I call you before you call the police. I need to know that my daughter is alive before we involve the police. Yes. And with that, Michelle opened the duffel bag and filled it with money. Again, money. Oh, okay. All right. I wouldn't have guessed that. No. That's why I had to spell it out for you because you're so stupid. That's rude. She put it in the order that she'd been asked to, and she didn't put in any of the bank's marked money. Funny money. Funny money. None of the funny money. Oh, God.

So stupid bringing in the funny money. Oh, my God. She walked out of the bank with $360,000. Okay, that's way more than I would have guessed. I agree, but still not enough for what they're going to face. Yeah. Because I don't know, man. I think they might get caught.

Yeah, they're going to get caught. She handed the gunman the money. Okay, different sources had this different ways. Bottom line is some say she got in the vehicle with him. He drove a little ways, told her to get out, said, your Jeep's down the road. Either way, she got home as quickly as she could with the dynamite still strapped to her body. As soon as she got there, she saw that Kimbra's car was not in the driveway. And she freaked out.

She ran to the front door but it had been barricaded with chairs so michelle busted through shouting for bria and kimbra and they were okay oh my gosh bria was still in the closet she was still duct tape and so was kimbra but the gunmen were gone and before they'd left they'd cut the dynamite off of Bria and Kimbra. But Michelle still had it on her. Yeah, get the fuck off! So she got the duct tape off of Bria and Kimbra and she said, okay, now you two need to get away from me. I still have this dynamite on me.

You need to get away and get help. But Bria, of course, was like, no, no, no. I don't want to leave you. I don't want to leave you. And Kimbra was like, look, I saw how they took this off of us. They did it so quickly. They were so careless. I can do this.

I can do what they did. Yeah. So Kimber cut the dynamite off of Michelle and they ran to a neighbor's house for help. Oh, my gosh. The neighbor called the police and told them everything that had happened and damn near everyone showed up. Yeah. We're talking local police, FBI, the bomb squad. How'd the FBI hear about it?

I don't know. This guy was probably the mayor, don't you think? Oh, okay, probably. Yeah. I was thinking about that just the other day. How you couldn't conceive that perhaps the FBI might have a receptionist. Impossible. No, I don't doubt they have a receptionist.

They're not just fielding calls from any Joe Schmo, though. Yeah, you are. I know. That's why you have a receptionist. you are. That's why you have a reception. The bomb squad quickly determined that the dynamite had been very fake. It turns out the gunman had taken broomstick handles and cut them up and spray painted them red and added some wires and some black tape to the ends. Oh my gosh. Yeah. and some black tape to the ends. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. It wasn't super impressive looking, but, you know. Well, yeah, in the moment. Oh, of course. It was fucking strapped to you. And I'm no art critic. I don't know. Really?

Have I been critical of art? Well, I mean, you just did that whole potty art case. Oh, yeah. You know what? I was critical of that. Oh, my gosh. One man's art is another man's toilet. Literally. So now investigators had to find the people who'd done this. And they had a pretty good lead because Michelle had recognized one of the gunmen. And she told them, you need to go to my desk at work and get that business card.

It's in the top right drawer of my desk. And all of the investigators chuckled and said in unison, surely this guy wasn't so stupid as to hand you a business card with his actual name on it. Was he really that stupid? Yes, he was. But can you imagine? If I'm investigating this, I'm like, okay, well, it's great that he handed you a business card. It's going to say Joe Teronimo on it.

No, it did not. It said his real ass name. Oh, my gosh. Brandy, I would now like to tell you exactly what was on that business card. Are you prepared? Yeah. It read, on the spot photos. And there was an apostrophe in the word photos.

Who? I fucking hate it. These photos are... On-the-spot photos. That is stupid. Yep. Under the grammatically incorrect business name, the card read, Christopher S. Butler.

Owner. Specialize in nightclub photography, weddings, special events, etc. Oh. And it included his address and phone number. Oh, my gosh. Okay, now here's the question. Was this his real address and phone number? They didn't address that.

I didn't mean for that to be hilarious. And yet it just happened because I am. But I'm kind of tempted to think that this was at least his business address because they tracked him down pretty quick real quick i mean he did put his full name on there yeah with his middle initial yeah they looked into christopher's background and um turns out turns out Christopher Butler wasn't just the owner, founder and operator of on the spot photo apostrophe S. Nobody told him? Told him what?

That there shouldn't be a fucking apostrophe in photos? I'm guessing this wasn't a real business. I'm guessing this was a business card, period. I don't know. Maybe it was. He was also a 26-year-old convicted felon with a history of, get this, robbing banks. Wow. Yeah.

Also, his fiancee was a woman named Lisa. Money 2. Money 2. Lisa Ramirez. So investigators followed those two for a while. They discovered that they were living in a house with a few other people. And they talked to those people. And yeah, I guess Chris and Lisa hadn't been too quiet about the bank robbery. Yeah. And neither did one of the other guys who lived in the house who also participated in the bank robbery. Yeah. It's kind of your one stop shop yeah just gonna recruit everybody who lives in the same house with me but not every

that's kind of the funny thing it's like if you're gonna talk about it with people you got to recruit you got to include everyone at the birthday party people are gonna split that money between okay well then the solution everyone the solution is you don't tell everyone, Brandy. Okay. If you're going to hand out birthday cards at school, you have to hand them out to everyone. All right. And by that, I mean birthday invitations. Okay. I was really wondering about that.

Yeah. And I thought maybe you meant Valentine's, but I wasn't going to be like an asshole. Oh, you weren't? No. Last week, you literally asked me who named a man's three dogs. And then I immediately said, I don't know why I asked that. I appreciate it. It seems like you've done some real growth.

I have. I'm a whole new person this week. Thank God. What? I'm sorry. I was trying to give you a sassy look. You just looked at me suspiciously. No.

What I was really doing was covering up for the fact that I was mid-burping. Burping. Oh, okay. Great. I hate that you knew exactly what I was doing. Yes. Hmm. It's tough to be flirting when you're burping. All right. So, yada, yada, yada. It's tough to be flirting when you're burping Alright, so

Yada, yada, yada Like ten days after this robbery Investigators did that thing They sometimes do When they want to take you into custody Nice and easy They did a little traffic stop Boom! Arrested him

Right, okay Are you hot? It's toasty in here Should we turn on the fan? Let's kick the fan off Kick want to kick that fan on? Yeah. Let's kick the fan on. Kick it up a notch, Emeril.

I think that's the light. Oh, no. Maybe we should do an in the dark podcast. Oh, instead of after dark? For spookiness. Okay. Probably you'd get enough glow off your computer that I could see. I bet it would work.

We could do like spooky cases. Hold on. What is that? It's like taking off. Kristen, again, it's not. Oh, okay. I thought you were turning the fan down. I'm testing the spookiness. Yeah, this is spooky.

This is kind of cool, right? I love it. I mean, and we probably won't get too hot if we have the... You think the lights putting off that much heat? Yeah, eventually. That or your broiler. It's coming all from my undercarriage. That's got to be at least 450, right?

That's disgusting. You said it. I know. And I was thinking of more disgusting things to say, but I stopped myself. The family show. Yeah. I was thinking about saying. You don't get credit for stopping if then you go ahead and tell us what you were going to say.

You know what? You're right. I won't tell you about how I was going to make a joke about how I meal prep during these podcasts by sticking some carrots right underneath your obvious chair. You know, they're sweet when you. It's gross. When you broil them. Like a good broiled carrot, do you? Yeah, absolutely.

Brandy's broiled carrots. Now, it is upsetting, I'm sure, to learn that I've been making money off of you. Wait, you're selling them? Yeah, I branded them. Brandy's, apostrophe S, and that's appropriate. That's appropriate, yes. Broiled carrots.

Okay. But I don't think I'm doing anything wrong legally because you're coming into my home. You're doing your thing. You know, if I'm taking advantage of your broiler, you know, like. Jesus. You know what? Now that I say it out loud, I realize I am doing something wrong.

Oh, people say we have too many tangents and they're right. Okay. So, boom they're right. Okay. So, boom, took them into custody, nice and easy. And Christopher and Lisa had a bunch of stuff that tied them to the bank robbery in their car with them. Excellent. Very convenient. They had Michelle's credit cards. They had Kimbra's credit cards.

They had money straps from the bank, you know. Yeah, the little bands, yeah. They had the dynamite detonator, which was just a doorbell. And they had a BB gun and ski masks. And when investigators searched their house, they found totally normal stuff that we all have, such as cut-up pieces of a broomstick that we have spray-painted red. Uh-huh. Every home has that.

You're not arts and crafts if you don't have a cut up broomstick. Prosecutor Tom Manning later said, It was crazy. I've never seen that much physical evidence left at a crime scene. Nah. The only thing they didn't find. By the way, are you okay with this darkness i like it okay the only thing they didn't find amongst christopher and lisa's possessions was any of the stolen money yeah where the fuck's the money great question i do not know. They never recovered it? Not to my knowledge.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Although I did get a weird angel investor for Brandy's broiled hair. Stop it. So investigators interrogated Christopher, and he held firm, like a pistachio in the Arizona heat. They told him that they'd recovered one of his fingerprints from one of the fake dynamite bundles. They told him that they'd recovered one of his fingerprints from one of the fake dynamite bundles. The detective said, we've got fingerprints that are yours that link you to the bank robbery.

And Christopher said, I doubt that because I wasn't involved in the bank robbery. It seems like they used extra words to say that. We could have just said, we've got your fingerprints. But they said, we've got fingerprints that are yours. Oh, I'm sorry. Do you not have time? I don't. You're going to bust into this interrogation. Sir, sir.

Your word count is excessive. We're going to need you to just cut the fat here, okay? We're not going to move lunch for this, I'll tell you that. So wrap it up. I think Christopher was kind of a cool cucumber. Yeah, cucumber. Cool customer. It's like a veggie tail.

I liked that very much. He was also religious. Weren't the veggie tails religious? Yeah. Yes, okay. Yeah. They told Bible stories. Lisa, on the other hand, was like a cashew that had been left out in the rain. An easy nut to crack. She was practically cheese already.

Delicious vegan cheese. Gross. Here's how that interrogation went. Detective, there was a female voice that came out of one of those walkie-talkies. Lisa, that was me. You tried to deny it. Detective, that was you? Lisa, mm-hmm. about it? Detective, that was you? Lisa, mm-hmm.

She told them everything. And like a walnut that wants credit for all its great ideas, she claimed that it had all been her idea. Okay. Stupid. With every one of these that I wrote, I thought Brandy is going to hate this more and more and more.

Well, you're right. Her breaking point might just be the one that makes absolutely no sense. It does make no sense. Walnuts are constantly taking credit for other nuts ideas you ever seen them in some trail mix they're just sitting there like i thought of this all right i'll continue I've never been more disappointed. Disappointed? Yeah, I'm not mad. Bullshit.

I'm just disappointed. Bullshit. By the way, did you ever get my Aunt Becky joke? Yeah, there's a difference between not getting the joke and not thinking the joke is funny. That is so mean. That is very hateful. Very hateful. You know what?

Your heart is cold and hard. Like a pistachio that's been in the freezer. So Lisa takes credit for everything. Yeah. As a walnut will do. And she was like, it was my idea to kidnap a bank manager. I came up with that idea like eight months ago as a joke.

It was my idea to strap fake dynamite to her. That was me on the walkie talkie. I girl bossed my way through this entire bank robbery. What the fuck? Yeah, I girl bossed my way through this entire bank robbery. Right. What the fuck? Yeah, I don't know. Okay. She'd pulled off the robbery with her fiance, Chris, and they'd had help from Michelle. No. That's right.

Michelle was involved. No, she was not. She was so involved, all up in it. She was so involved, all up in it. Also, Lisa and Chris didn't have any of the money from the robbery because their share of it had been stolen. Oh, okay. Yep. Cool.

No, it's not. If you've gone to the trouble to do all that, you don't want your share of the money stolen. That same day, investigators arrested 26-year-old Christopher Huggins. He still had 93 grand from the robbery. Oh, all right. The rest of it he'd blown in Vegas, possibly at a Celine Dion concert. We have no way of knowing. Right.

Okay. So Christopher was taken into custody, and like a peanut that had been dropped into a bottle of Pepsi, he also cracked it. I'm sorry I had that written down. I realized I've done too many of these nut jokes. Why Pepsi? People put peanuts in Dr. Pepper. Oh, is it Dr. Pepper that they do that? I thought in North Carolina people were doing it with Pepsi. Pepsi was invented in North Carolina, so I guess it's possible. I have never dropped a nut into any cola. Nor have I. And I'm quite proud of it. Yeah. He told them everything, apparently, but didn't mention Michelle being involved.

Oh. Weird. Weird. Investigators were still searching for the third gunman, Robert Ortiz, a.k.a. Bones. Bones? Is it with a Z? You know? I don't believe so, but it should be, right?

If you're going to go for a badass nickname. Well, his name's Ortiz, so that already has a Z at the end. So, like, just keeping in line with that. But that's not a factor in nicknames. Sure. What? Sure. You go with the last letter of your last name?

No, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying. Yeah, if you're picking a nickname, right, and you're like Bones, oh, I should do a Z because I have a Z at the end of my name. I'll let this slide. Anyway, that dude was on the run. Yeah. He was on the run for three months. They caught him, naturally, after he was profiled on the greatest TV program of all time.

America's Most Wanted. After that segment aired, more than 100 people called in. They were like, I know where that dude is. He's living in an apartment complex in Milwaukee. And yes, he was. He had 32K left over from the robbery. Oh. Money must go fast after you rob a bank.

I'm guessing these folks weren't doing like a budget or anything. I mean, but you should though. Because when you commit a crime where like if you get caught, you're going away for fucking ever. You really need to. Well, I don't know. I know. You got to spend it now because then you're going to go to prison forever. You got to get in the front row at Celine Dion.

That's right. So you can remember. Drove all night. OK. Remember. Drove all night. Okay. So he was taken into custody, and like an almond that had been dropped into an above-ground pool, he was also easy to crack.

Worth noting, he also didn't mention Michelle's involvement, which was weird. Yeah. It was almost as if. It was almost as if Michelle wasn't involved in any fucking way and they did something horrible to her, which likely traumatized her and her daughter for the rest of their lives. Right. And perhaps by saying she's involved, they're going to re-traumatize her. Yeah. But who cares, right? What about the Rottweiler?

Did they find the Rottweiler? Did they find the Rottweiler? That Rottweiler had stolen Lisa and Chris's share of the money. I told you he was a criminal dog! And they said Stitches, you're not going to eat all those milk bones. You couldn't eat

them in a thousand lifetimes anyway so lisa had said michelle was involved and that needed to be looked into but there really wasn't any evidence that she was involved um it seems that in an effort to rule her out, and I hate this, the investigators had her, like, relive stuff to see if she'd react like a true victim should. Oh my gosh! They literally recreated the dynamite packs and strapped them onto Michelle and Bria's backs to see how they'd react. I- Whose fucking idea was that? back to see how they react. I. Whose fucking idea was that? I mean, I think they must have suspected her on some level.

Oh, my gosh. Detective Dale Martin said she was shaken up. I thought she was going to have a nervous breakdown. Yeah, I thought she was. So anyway, this proves to them that she's a up. I thought she was going to have a nervous breakdown. Yeah, I thought she was. So anyway, this proves to them that she's a victim. All right. Okay, great. Years later, Michelle was asked about that.

And I think she was very charitable about it. Here's what she said. She said, in hindsight, the police were just trying to piece it all together. But in that, they lose sight of the victim. You're so broken and fractured, you are emotional wreckage. Yeah. So, you know, they decide, okay, she's not been involved in this crime. But Lisa, Chris, Robert, and other Chris were about to stand trial.

And unfortunately, that meant that Michelle's life was about to get a whole lot harder. Initially, Lisa's defense attorney, Herb Weston, took a look at the mountain of evidence against his client and was like, Ooh, this sucks. I'm going to try to get you a plea deal. So he went to the prosecution, asked for a plea deal, and the prosecution was like, Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. So funny. No, we will see you in court.

And they did see him in court. In June of 2002, Christopher Butler and Lisa Ramirez went on trial together. And that turned out to be amazing for Lisa's case because since her confession implicated Christopher Butler, the judge ruled that her entire interrogation was inadmissible. Wow. Her confession was gone. And Christopher Butler had never implicated Lisa in any way, so...

Herb's argument in Lisa's defense was that Lisa had no idea about this robbery until after it happened. Cool. That's great. It wasn't a bad argument. Without her confession, there really wasn't much tying her to this. Yeah. Sure, Michelle had said that she recognized Lisa's voice on the walkie-talkie, but maybe Michelle was full of shit, right? Sure. A couple newspaper articles mentioned that some of the people who lived with Lisa and Christopher said they heard them talking about the crime. I didn't find anything about their actual court testimony. At any rate, Michelle Renee became the prosecution's star witness. She laid out her entire story, which I've already told, and then came time for cross-examination. And it was horrible. Lisa's

defense attorney literally told 48 Hours that his strategy was to, quote, beat the hell out of the victim and point out all the inconsistencies the victim is saying. Wow. Michelle had said that she recognized the voice of the woman on the walkie-talkie as being the same voice as the woman who'd been in the bank with Christopher Butler the day before. But Herb implied she was lying. He said that that wasn't in any of the FBI reports. Herb pointed out to the jury all the things that he found odd about Michelle's behavior during the robbery. She'd gone into the vault, but she hadn't taken all the money. She'd purposely left behind all the traceable bills. Yeah, because they had told her if she didn't, they would kill her and

her daughter. Why would she have done that if she hadn't been involved? I just told you. if she hadn't been involved, Brandy. I just told you. Herb asked Michelle why, after she'd gotten the money, she'd gone back to her daughter. Why would she go to her daughter if she thought she had real dynamite strapped to her body?

Because she thought her daughter also had real dynamite strapped to her body. Hmm. also had real dynamite strapped to her body. Hmm. Maybe she went to her daughter with the dynamite strapped to her body because she knew the dynamite wasn't real. No.

Yeah. Christopher Butler's defense attorney, Mark Chambers, took essentially the same tactic, but he asked more questions about Michelle's past. And to be fair, there was stuff to pick apart. She'd filed for bankruptcy. She'd written a bad check. She was struggling financially. Honestly, I'm surprised someone who has filed for bankruptcy is allowed to work at a bank, but all right.

Okay. She certainly needed money. And Michelle wasn't a saint. She'd lied on her resume. And they mentioned this in 48 Hours. I personally don't see what this has to do with anything, but she'd stripped for a while. Okay. So Michelle was asked about that, and she was like, yeah, I'm not ashamed of that and I never have been.

She said she ran away from home when she was 15 and she did what she had to do to survive. Yeah. And stripping paid the bills. Yeah. Michelle was pummeled by the defense. She said the worst questions were the ones about her sex life. She felt like they were trying to make her out to be this horrible person who would do anything for money.

It felt like she was the one on trial. Mm-hmm. And later, in a really interesting twist, Christopher Butler took the stand in his own defense. Boy, oh boy, did he have a story to tell. Yeah, what's his story? What's the story, Wishbone? Okay.

That was the Rottweiler's name. He said that Michelle had been the mastermind of this entire bank robbery. It was all her idea. Of course he did. It all started in the fall of 2000 when they met at a grocery store. The year 2000. It's fitting because we have the lights off. It is.

Christopher said that as they were leaving the grocery store, he mentioned to her that he'd been convicted of bank robbery. And she seemed surprised. She told him, well, only if you knew what I do. him, well, only if you knew what I do. Later, since he was a photographer, he took some pictures of Michelle and he took pictures of her roommate, Kimbra. Don't make that face. It's all very normal stuff. And Kimbra took some photos of him with Michelle, which was cute because by that point, things were getting kind of hot and heavy between them. And by October, they were banging. What? And yeah, Christopher told Michelle about his fiance, Lisa, but Michelle didn't care. She said he could do better.

He could do better in his personal life and his professional life. And that's when she was like, we should rob the bank. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, so later, on the night when this all went down, Christopher claims that he and Robert and the other Christopher went over to Michelle's house because she invited them there. Okay, they didn't break in. My God. And they had spears with them because she wanted to do a photo shoot in her backyard because she wanted the spears for like an Amazon type vibe was what he said. Okay.

And that night they all got super high. Not Christopher. Christopher did not get high. Everybody else around him got high. Then Kimber came home and everyone got even more high except for him again sure he had no need for weed yeah and michelle brought up the robbery again and she told them that you know oh they should do it and they should ransack her house so that this story about them kidnapping her would be believable and she told them to kick her door in, you know. Sure.

He claimed he'd never worn a disguise or taped anyone up. He'd never held anyone hostage. So, yeah, that's his story. Okay. Michelle was outraged. Yeah! None of this was true. Exactly. Where are the

pictures? Yeah. Where are the fucking pictures? Yeah. Oh, they don't exist? Oh, okay. This is ridiculous. Yeah, there was no evidence that Michelle and Christopher had an affair.

No evidence that she'd been involved in the robbery. But the jury kind of bought it. Really? Really? They deliberated for five days, and the jury agreed that Christopher was guilty of robbery, guilty of kidnapping Bria, guilty of kidnapping Kimbra, but they hung 9-3 on whether he'd kidnapped Michelle. Oh my gosh!

And they found Lisa Ramirez not guilty on all counts. Shut the fuck up! Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I really didn't find as much on this case as I wanted to because I want to know more about the prosecution's case. Yeah. In opening statements, the prosecutor talked about how this was all about credibility.

And I just feel like. Yeah. Do you know what the breakdown of the jury was man men and women oh i don't i know though that one man completely bought christopher's story and two others were kind of undecided and the rest were evidently like no no, that's obviously bullshit. Yeah. I do want to know about those photos. I thought it was so interesting. He said there were photos.

But of course, if there were, then that would have blown this whole thing wide open. Michelle had a horrible time with all of this. She said that the tactics that the defense attorneys used at Lisa and Christopher's trial had re-victimized her. 100%. Okay. There is this insane exchange in the 48 Hours episode where the correspondent asks Lisa's defense attorney, is it fair to beat up on the victim? And he goes, oh, absolutely, absolutely. Okay.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah, he was, he said, you know, this was the best verdict he'd ever gotten in his career. Yeah, I bet it is. I'm sure it is. Yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah.

Yeah, I bet it is. I'm sure it is. Yeah. It's unbelievable. Yeah. When it came time for his sentencing, Michelle was prepared to give a victim impact statement, and Christopher was a dick about it. He told Superior Court Judge Joan Weber, Why don't you go ahead and do what you're going to do?

Get it over with. Let Michelle get up and get the attention she wants. Oh my gosh! Mm-hmm. For the record, this judge was pissed off. She later called Christopher's version of events a pack of lies. Yes. Yes. Yes. She sentenced Christopher to three life terms plus 64 years in prison. Yeah. So that'll do it. Yeah. Christopher Huggins and Robert Ortiz went on trial a few months later in front of the same judge, same prosecutor. I wasn't able to find much about their trial, but it appears that their defense attorneys took a pretty similar tactic to

that of Christopher Butler's attorney. Well, yeah. I mean, why not? Why not? Michelle Sketchy, she's involved. This was all part of the plan. Defense attorney Robert James, who represented Christopher Huggins, told the jury, it's our position, and I'm speaking for both of these men, that Michelle originated and conceived this bank robbery plan, orchestrated it, and carried it out. What? This is infuriating. Yeah. And it is insane to me that Lisa confessed and then was completely acquitted. Yeah, I just don't think they had enough honor. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I just don't think they had enough honor.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, it's pretty incredible. Yeah. Okay, so what these two fellas... So this time the jury didn't buy it. Yeah. And for what it's worth, and it seems like this was worth a lot to Michelle, at his sentencing hearing, Robert Ortiz turned to Michelle and mouthed, I'm sorry.

Wow. He and Christopher Huggins were given life sentences plus 32 years. Yeah. But, you know, Michelle and Bria dealt with PTSD for years. I'm sure it was like PTSD from the kidnapping and from the trials. They never went back to the home where this happened. PTSD from the kidnapping and from the trials. They never went back to the home where this happened. Michelle never went back to her job at Bank of America. Oh, I forgot to mention this one thing.

So one of the things that they had said spoke to her guilt was that like, and this was true, I guess after this robbery, she did sue Bank of America. I believe it must have gotten dismissed or settled out of court because several things were thrown out and I didn't see like a resolution on that lawsuit. But they were saying that that's how she was going to get, you know, her share was like she was going to have this successful lawsuit. Yeah. OK. Bullshit. Anyway. OK.

I can't quite remember why I brought that up. Anyway. Michelle said that she was determined to set a good example for Bria. She wanted to talk openly about what had happened to them and to try to move past the anger that she held toward the people who'd done this to them. She wrote a book and she found the process therapeutic. She said, by writing it all down, I was giving my trauma a destination so it couldn't breed inside me. Years passed and Bria and Michelle did pretty well. Bria got into competitive cheerleading, which is the coolest thing on earth. Yes. I know you love competitive

cheerleading. I do love it. But okay, this is wild. In 2011, during her senior year of high school, she had an acute onset of multiple sclerosis. Oh my gosh. I mean, it was a whole deal. She was told she'd never walk again. She stayed in the hospital for six weeks, couldn't feed herself, could barely move. At one point, she went blind in one eye. Eventually, she did regain her ability to speak. And at that point, she turned to Michelle and said, kidnapping was a piece of cake compared to this. Oh, my gosh. It took a ton of work and a total upheaval of their lives. But Bria was eventually able to walk again. And she got into college. She was determined to be the first person in her family to graduate college.

So Michelle and Bria have done their best to move forward. They wrote a letter to Robert Ortiz and he wrote them back. And they were very moved by what he said. Michelle said that out of respect to him she wasn't going to share the letter but you know they just felt like yeah he was doing the work on himself. Yeah. And even though he'd been the one to hold a gun to her head Bria spoke at his parole hearing. She said she wanted him to be let out. And he did get out. Wow. In January of 2021. Wow.

Yeah. She and Michelle feel the same way about Christopher Huggins. They feel that Christopher and Robert have both expressed remorse and done the work, and they want to see them released from prison. Wow. Their trials must have been, well, I mean, they didn't testify. Yeah. You know. Yeah. have been well i mean they didn't testify yeah you know yeah so now they don't feel the same way about christopher butler though no uh in january of 2020 christopher butler was eligible for parole

and at his parole hearing tom manning the prosecutor from his trial asked him about his testimony at trial he said that he'd had an affair with Michelle, that she had been involved. Was any of that true? And finally, after 20 years, Christopher came clean. He said it had all been a lie. And he said he was sorry for what he'd put the victims through. But he still blamed someone else. He still blamed Lisa for the crime. So it's like a

partial credit. Right. Yeah. Christopher didn't get parole. But the fact that he'd admitted that he'd lied on the stand meant a lot to Michelle. Yeah. She said, in a weird way, I could breathe. I could exhale finally after all these years. Yeah. And that's the story of a kidnapping and a bank robbery. Oh my gosh. I did want to make a note about last names. I didn't include Kimber's last name. Yeah. Only because I noticed in the 48 Hours episode they didn't do it. Yeah. And she has not spoken publicly about this. So I felt like maybe she didn't want to be and that's fine yeah um michelle changed her last name after this crime so um going with her new last name yeah but yeah there you go wow i so like i said i saw and i survived on that but i didn't know like any

of the court details on that that was nuts you also didn't know about the spears. I did not know about the spears, admittedly. Okay. You should have seen my eyeballs. When I saw that in some random newspaper article, I was like, well, that, I mean, you know it's not a typo. Right, yeah. But you're also like, okay, well, that can't be real. Yeah, no. But then I saw it in the court document, too.

I was like, holy shit. Any hooters. That was wonderful. I enjoyed that very much. Where's my phone in this dark room? Should we take some questions from our Discord? Aw. Kyla.

Kyla sent me a sweet text. Aw. Kyla. Kyla sent me a sweet text. She wanted to make sure I wasn't homering myself into the bushes about the live show on Friday. Oh, very good. Because she texted me last night. She's like, do you want to hang out on Friday? Or are you hiding? And I didn't text her back, which she knows is the sign for I'm not doing great. Blah, blah, blah. Oh, when I was a district manager has two questions for us.

Okay. Okay, so for me, they ask, at the end of a lot of episodes, you want to hurry up because you have to pee. Maybe poop. Let's be real. Oh, rude. Is Patty going to charge more if she has to edit out another bathroom break? Okay, here's the thing about bathroom breaks and Patty. Yeah.

We pay, Patty, I almost called her potty. I'm sorry. We pay by the raw audio. Yes. So yes, we pay for bathroom breaks. You know, Patty sends me a tray of hot wings before every recording. Is she trying to sabotage me? We don't know.

Okay, do you want to hear the question for you? Yeah. Brandy, I just listened to the episode Kidnappings, and someone asked if you would ever wear a black wedding dress. You said it's not what you were wanting, but you had your eye on a dress with sleeves that's off the shoulder. Did you try it on? Was that the dress you ended up

with? No, I never even tried it on. Why not? I don't know, really. I never, I actually never went dress shopping in a store. I ordered my dress online. So yeah, no, I never, I remember, I remember exactly what dress I was talking about. Nope, never tried it on, nothing. Ordered a different dress online. Thought it was okay. It was fine. And then I was like, well, I don't want my wedding dress to be fine.

And so then I found the dress that I ended up wearing and I also ordered it online. It was beautiful. It was amazing. I fucking loved my wedding dress. And I also ordered it online. It was beautiful. It was amazing. I fucking loved my wedding dress. Your first dress was very cute. It was fine. Sometimes you gotta switch. That's right.

Carlos the Serial Killer asked Brandy, we all know you love games. We heard Animal Crossing was your video game of choice during quarantine. Any new video games you and David are loving? Okay, so David and I play quite a bit of Switch. We love Mario Kart, and Mario Kart just dropped a bunch of new courses, so we've been playing that. And also, I love Mario Golf.

It is my favorite game. I beg David to play it with me all the time and he's always open to play but like, I don't know. And I can beat him at it and I can't beat him at many things. Is that why you love it so much? Probably. I am good at it and I am not good at

video games. Are you good at actual golf? No! I'm sorry for even asking. My God! Edgar Allen Ho wants to know, Brand brandy how much would you have to be paid to take off your makeup before bed hmm yeah it wouldn't be that much money because i just don't do it out of laziness like is that i just when i'm when i'm ready for bed i'm ready for bed i don't care to do a bunch of shit. It's truly a laziness thing. It started as a laziness thing and it continues as a laziness thing. Yeah, I just don't care to do it before bed.

Wow. And I've suffered no adverse effects from it. All right, you don't need to brag. Yeah, no. It's not that I'm morally opposed to washing my face before bed or anything. It's not even like a conscious choice that I made was like, I, moving forward with my life, will no longer wash my makeup off before bed. No, I just don't do it because I'm lazy.

All right. And my skin's fine with it. So, yeah, I mean, somebody, I would take a very small amount of money to do it. All right. Okay. There's more question. But wait, it's gone. The question is, oh, Kristen, how much for you to go to sleep with your makeup on?

How much would someone have to pay you? I mean, for how long? Okay. That is a good question because, yeah, do I have to do it every day? Because it's going to be more money if I do it every day. Okay. For every day for one month, you have to go to sleep with your makeup on. How much money are you charging that person?

Well, I mean, first of all, I probably just wouldn't wear makeup that month. No, you got to wear to sleep with your makeup on how much money are you charging that person well i mean first of all i probably just wouldn't wear makeup that month no you gotta wear makeup oh okay well i it's part of the contract all right fine i don't know i mean my skin would be like real rough looking the pores would be flapping how much money would make it worth that? Stuffed full of stuff. Um, I don't know. Thousand bucks. Probably not worth it. You wouldn't do it for a thousand bucks? I don't think I would. I don't know that I'd wash my face every night for a month for a thousand bucks either.

I think five thousand bucks I'd do it. Yeah, for sure. Happily. Yeah. Happily. Absolutely. Five thousand dollars every day for a month I'd wash my face before bed. And you'd go to sleep with your makeup on.

Oh, I hate that. All right. Fine. Roast Beef Curtains wants to know, what As Seen on TV products have you purchased or wanted? Growing up, I loved middle of the night infomercials and wanted everything. All of them. I love As Seen on TV stuff.s and wanted everything. All of them. I love as seen on TV stuff.

Oh, my God. It's Brandy's obsession. Love it. For Christmas last year, you got me a bunch of as seen on TV things. Yeah, my rule was only as seen on TV. Yeah, it was wonderful. It was an eclectic collection. It was wonderful. Yeah, I love infomercials.

I love as seen on TV. I'm, yeah, I'm very persuaded by marketing. So I think every item is awesome. Of the As Seen on TV items that you have enjoyed over your lifetime, tell us about the best ones. Oh, boy. I don't even know. I can tell you my least favorite one that I actually purchased and I was so disappointed in. Okay, what was it?

Pajama jeans. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Pajama jeans. Yes. Okay. So that was like 10 years ago, right? Yeah.

Yeah. And it was basically jeggings, right? Yeah, but they were made of terrible material. They were horrible. And I wanted them so badly and I had never been more disappointed with a purchase. Walk us through it. They just looked like cotton pants with jeans printed on them. You were fooling no one.

You were like, oh my gosh, I'm going to put these on and no one's going to know that I'm super comfortable. I mean, that would be the dream. Yes. I'm living it now with my Judy blues. Yeah. I mean, those are good. They're amazing. Again, not sponsored.

We just like them. Yes. Okay. What else? What else have you tried? So many things. Did you ever have the bump it? Yeah.

I bought a bump it. Did you really? Yeah. Did you like it? No. I thought it was hard to use. Yeah. It was easier just to tease your hair.

Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Gosh, what else? I know you never had that at-home rotisserie chicken. No. Well, okay. We had one.

What? At my house. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Lisa got it for Christmas one year or something. Yeah. We had one. my house yeah oh yeah lisa got it for christmas one year or something yeah we had and boy was that a wonderful christmas we i don't even know that we ever used it but no that's that's that's not something one does especially when you can just go to costco

spend five bucks yeah set it and forget it um yeah no i i wanted um oh my gosh every every pan set that is on a oh on an infomercial i wanted i they all look amazing and nothing sticks to them yeah you know what i always wanted back in the day what bare minerals do you remember those oh yeah how they just swirl on the product amazing and they're like looks so good, and it's wonderful for your skin. Yeah, sure. What about when? That hair stuff? Oh, no, because I was already a hairstylist by the time that came out, and I was like,

that's a disaster waiting to happen. And boy, was I right, because people's hair started falling out. Uh-huh. I thought about covering that on the podcast. I watched a bunch of old end phone commercials, and it was like, with this one product, you can do everything. Yeah. One product cannot do everything. My uncle is a tree, wants to know, predict how your live show went and how amazing the after party was.

Oh, my gosh. It was so amazing. Oh, my gosh. I threw up on stage. You're not going to throw up on stage. No, I'm not. I'm going to be fine. I'm going to be fine.

So great. It's going to be such a good time. And then, yeah, we'll go drink some wine afterwards. I have a green dress that I will wear and I'll look fabulous. You are going to look fabulous and I'm wearing a black dress, which will surprise no one. I mean, it is surprising that you're doing

a dress. Oh, yeah. I like dresses, though. I'm excited. Yeah, I'm really excited. I meant about our outfits. I'm also excited about our outfits. I put this outfit together in my mind. And then on Sunday, I tried it on just to make sure, like, okay, do I actually like it in reality? Because if not, I've got to fucking find something to wear.

And I liked it just as much as I thought I would in my mind, which I don't think that ever happens. No, it never does. Because I had one in my mind. Yes. And I put it on and was like, eh. I had one in my mind. Yes. And I put it on and was like, eh.

So I had to make some last minute purchases. Yes. No, I think I will always be nervous anytime we do a live show. Absolutely. I think so, too. But you know what? I got you, babe. We'll always be there together.

That's right. Yeah. I mean, for real. That's like the thing that makes this okay be there together. That's right. Yeah. I mean, for real. That's like the thing that makes this okay. That's the thing, right? Absolutely. Man, and our parents are going to be. I know. Our families are going to be.

I know. That's going to be really cool. Yeah. Yeah, I had like this sweet moment where I was thinking about like our parents sitting at our live show and like reflecting on like how we have been friends since we were 10 years old. Well, you think about watching this cool thing. You think about like our parents have sat in the audience of like our fifth grade choir concert. Exactly. That is.

And now they're going to sit in the audience of our live show. That is so cool. It's so cool. Oh, my God. You're going to sit in the audience of our live show. That is so cool. It is. It's so cool. Oh, my God. You're going to make me cry. Okay. Let's induct some people into the Supreme Court.

Shall we? To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. We're going to continue today. Christina Ricci and Casper. Sue Thompson. Brandon Lee. Ten-year-old Sue was probably too young to watch The Crow. I cried for ages when I learned he died during filming. Oh, my. You don't know this?

I feel like you told me this. Yeah, I for sure did. Yeah, it's fine. Kelsey. Lance Bass. Lins it's fine. Kelsey. Lance Bass. Linz. Josh Hartnett. Crystal Cadillac.

Jonathan Taylor Thomas. I had a poster above my bed that eventually didn't have lips. Oh, Scandalous. Jill Neal. Randy Travis. The Country Singer. Kelly Vieta. Freddie Prinze Jr. in Scooby-Doo.

Oh no, that's the worst Freddie Prinze Jr. because he's got that stupid blonde hair. I too loved Freddie Prinze Jr. Oh, you did. I did. My goodness, you did. But you did not like him blonde. I did not like him blonde at all. Ana Vieda.

Chad Michael Murray. We got two Viedas? I assume they're related because they're back to back. Okay, I'm going to move on with my life. Amanda Green. Joey Fatone. Denise Reusner. Richard Dean Anderson from MacGyver.

I even had a t-shirt. Wait, is that like MacGyver himself? Is that who played MacGyver? You're asking me. I have no idea. Okay, all right. Yeah, I don't know why I asked you. Brooke Eide.

Martin Short. I will not be taking questions. That is a bit of an odd one, Brooke. No, that's fine. Erin Lynn. Keira Knight Brooke. Yep. That's fine. Erin Lynn. Kira Knightley. Brittany. JTT.

Welcome to the Supreme Court. Okay, that's enough. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review.

Then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. Podcast adjourned! of Michelle and Bria Renee, an episode of I Survived, The Court Record, and Newspapers.com. I got my info from ChillingCrimes.com, an article for Medium

by Melinda Fusco, The Florida Times Union, News 4 Jax, and Wikipedia. What does News 4 Jax do? For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCPodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours,

but please don't take our word for it go read their stuff boom