Let's Go To Court! - 25: The Lindbergh Baby Kidnapping and the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire

Episode Date: July 18, 2018

When the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory caught fire in 1911, it was the worst workplace fire in New York City’s history. In fact, if it weren’t for September 11th, it would still hold that horrible record. In just 18 minutes, the fire took 146 lives. It was devastating, but it was also preventable. The incident inspired activists and politicians. It also encouraged workers to join unions and fight for their right to a safe work environment. Then we discuss the most famous kidnapping in American history — that of baby Charles Lindbergh. Baby Lindbergh was taken from the second story of his family home. The kidnapper left behind a broken ladder and a poorly written ransom note. The nearly two year old boy was the son of aviation star Charles Lindbergh and his wife Anne Morrow Lindbergh. The distraught parents did everything they could to get their baby back. They paid the ransom and searched high and low for their child. But it was too late… And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Rose Freedman, Last Survivor of Triangle Fire, Dies at 107,” New York Times Triangle: Remembering The Fire, HBO documentary “The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire,” History.com “The Triangle Fire of 1911,” by John M Hoenig “The 1911 Triangle Factory Fire,” Cornell University In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Hauptmann Trial (1935)” Famous-Trials.com “Lindbergh Kidnapping” FBI.gov

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. And I'll talk about the Lindbergh Baby Kidnapping.

I'm so excited for yours. I'm obsessed with yours. Are you going first or am I? No, you go first. Damn it. But I don't know anything. I don't think I've ever even heard of this shirt waist triangles.

Clearly you haven't. Mine's gonna be really sad. Oh, good. And mine's about a kidnapped baby. Let's get some. let's do it this is this is one of those where we've talked about this before like you spend the day researching it and you're like why am i in such a bad mood yeah that was me oh no, now I'm really excited. Tell me more about this horrible case, Kristen.

You seem happy right now. Let's change that. So today I'm going to talk about a fire. When it happened in 1911, it was the worst workplace fire in New York City history. And if it weren't for September 11th, it would still be the worst workplace fire in New York City history. And if it weren't for September 11th, it would still be the worst workplace fire. Holy shit. Yes. Yes. Wow.

This is bad. Okay. Have you guys picked up on this yet? That it's bad, bad, bad? Real bad? I don't want anyone to be surprised. I thought this was anyone to be surprised. I thought this was going to be a happy workplace fire.

No marshmallows involved. People busted out the s'mores. Okay, so the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory was located in the 8th, 9th, and 10th floors of the Ash Building in New York City. It's right by... Foreshadowing. The Ash Building. Oh, God, I didn't even think about that. Oh, that's dark. Yeah.

I wonder if that's why they changed the name. Really? So it's right by Washington Square Park. Uh-huh. And by the way, shirtwaists were just like ladies' blouses. Oh, all right. And the two dudes who owned the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory were killing it. They were making millions,

partly because they were basically running the biggest sweatshop in town. So nearly 500 people worked at this factory, and they were mostly young women and teenage girls. And when I say teenage, I mean like we're talking as young as 14. They were mostly immigrants. A lot of them couldn't speak English. They worked very long hours for very little pay. Typically, they worked about 12 hours a day, seven days a week.

And I saw different figures on this. On the high end, they made $15 a week. Holy shit. Adjusted for inflation is about $380. No, that's still nothing. And again, that's like the highest estimate I saw. Yeesh. So you can see pictures of the factory.

And it's this huge, it's basically a huge room. Tons of women just crammed in together at these long tables, sewing shirtwaists. Right beneath them are these big bins of cotton scraps. All around them are yards of cloth and paper patterns. Just kindling. Yep. Are we seeing where the trouble yeah okay so on march 25th 1911 at 4 40 p.m it was the end of a long work day it appears someone lit a cigarette

and when they were done they dropped the butt and it landed in one of the bins of cotton. Oh, God. The cotton immediately caught fire, of course. Yeah. People started freaking out. A manager saw what was going on and he's like, hey, everyone be calm. This is why we have a hose. He runs over to the hose, starts to turn the valve.

It won't budge. Oh, my gosh. It's rusted shut holy shit in one of the in one of the documentaries i saw it said that the valve was rusted shut and the hose had rotted away which then i'm like well what do you even have to me that's like me going into a corner of my house like there's a hose here brandy i promise you so people panic even more they'd never had a fire drill which my first thought was well were those even a thing right then yeah they were oh all right but the thing is is when you have a fire drill people can't work yes very good the good. You have no work done.

The number of shirt wastes you make on that day is a little lower. And if you're trying to make all the money you possibly can, then that's just no good. No time for fire drills. So no fire drills. So no one really knows what to do. They're screaming. The fire is spreading all over the place very rapidly there's wood everywhere there's cotton everywhere there are paper patterns the room quickly fills with

smoke and flames and there's no relief a lot of factories at the time had sprinklers overhead not the triangle short waste of course not. That probably costs money to put in. And they weren't going to spend any money on that. Yeah. And it was totally optional. You know, there were no regulations. Yeah.

And we'll find out more in a minute about why maybe they didn't have sprinklers. In the midst of all this panic, people rushed toward the fire escape, but the fire escape was this narrow poorly constructed thing i want to say i saw something that said that the steps were like two and a half feet wide oh my gosh yeah i mean it was just it was not built to the capacity it needed to be yeah it could barely handle any weight let alone the weight of all these desperate people.

Pretty soon the fire escape collapsed and 20 people fell to their deaths. Holy shit. Okay. I'm sorry. We're on the eighth and ninth floors of this building. Ninth and 10th floors. And these are the top floors. It's a 10 floor,

10 story building. Okay. Why don't we say 10 floor building? I mean, I mean, yeah, each floor tells a story, Kristen. So the fire escape is gone.

The women are desperately searching for another exit. They try to use the other available doors, but it was no use. Oh, my gosh. The owners kept those doors locked during work hours. It was thought to be like a theft prevention thing, so people couldn't walk out with short-laced materials. And the owners were nowhere to be found. Holy shit.

These women are just trapped in a burning building. Yep. So that just left the elevators. There were four elevators. They could hold about, you know, on a normal occasion, about a dozen people at a time. But of the four elevators, only one of them worked. Holy shit. They were fucked.

Yeah. I do want to say, though, and this is the part that always made me cry. That made me cry. Always made me cry. That made me cry. Always made me cry. Yesterday made me cry. This morning made me cry. Always. Joseph Zito was one of the elevator operators, and he realized what was going on pretty quickly.

He was about to get off his shift, and all of a sudden he starts getting all these buzzes for people to bring up the elevator. So he goes up. He sees the flames. He knows what he's getting himself into. But he did the amazing thing. He went up, got as many people as he could, like 24 usually. Oh, my gosh.

He'd take them down. He'd go back up every time holy shit he went back i've got goosebumps yeah i'm covered in goosebumps right now it's unclear how many times he went up but he knew he was their only shot at survival oh my gosh as he was doing this, people were leaping out of the windows because the fire had consumed everything. There was smoke everywhere. And they knew that there was only so much that this one elevator was going to be able to do. He saved over 100 people. Holy shit. shit um the only reason he wasn't able to go up for more trips was because people out of desperation started jumping down into the elevator shaft and eventually the weight of all those

bodies broke through the top of the elevator and sent the thing going all the way down to the basement so he couldn't go up anymore this is the worst fucking story ever kristin it gets even worse holy shit it is it is a horrible horrible story yeah thanks for bringing it to our comedy podcast am i bad at this do i not get the point Am I bad at this? Did I not get the point? Oh, Lord.

Listen, I mean, it is so, it's so sad. Meanwhile, you may be concerned about the owners. I'm not. Well, they were concerned about themselves. I bet they were. So here we go. The owners were on the 10th floor, along with a bunch of other people. And as soon as they realized what was going on, it seems like they maybe started to go downstairs, saw that that was not a good option, and so they went onto the rooftop. Now, I can't imagine what this must have been like.

But right next door to the Ash Building is another building that was a bit higher. And in that building, there was an NYU law school class. And they were watching the whole thing. Smoke was billowing out of it. And they saw people on that rooftop. So they went out onto their own rooftop with ladders and started bringing people over to their side oh my gosh the the estimation is that anywhere from 60 to 80 people were saved that way wow and i want to know so badly like okay which building were they in and like

badly like okay which building were they in and like how long i mean i just can't imagine yeah i cannot imagine how fucking scary that would be no shit um but i guess it's like well i either burn to death in this fire or i risk falling to my death climbing on this rickety ladder up to this other building yeah i'm gonna go the rickety ladder route yeah right yeah and like um do it quickly yeah other people can also do it holy shit at this point the fire had been raging for 10 minutes oh my gosh i mean that's how fast this thing was going so a witness called the fire department and the first truck arrived within two minutes. Wow. Yes. Wonderful, right? Now, I just know that you're trying to give us like, you know, a false sense of hope here.

And you're just about to, you know, really punch us in the gut. Okay, get ready. Some more information. Steal that gut, Brandy. Tighten that tummy. Here we go. So here's the thing the firefighters arrived on the scene and they extended their ladders as far as they could go wouldn't reach they reached the sixth

floor holy shit so did their hoses everything reached the sixth floor and this started on the eighth floor. Yeah. It was, I mean, it's, I wonder, like, at that point, how long skyscrapers had been around. Yeah. And it just seems like they, it was just, they weren't prepared. Yeah. So there was only so much they could do.

And at that point, they saw all these young women and men jumping out of the building. So they decided to do what they could. They got out their nets, like maybe we can catch them. But the nets weren't strong enough. They were just breaking through. To hold someone.

Yes. Oh! And there are pictures of this. I mean, there are pictures of just bodies and bodies and bodies. Oh, my gosh. All over the sidewalk. And it's hard to tell because it's kind of grainy. just bodies and bodies and bodies. Oh my gosh. All over the sidewalk. And it's hard to tell because it's kind of grainy,

but I think there's a picture of these two firefighters holding a broken net with someone through it. Oh my gosh. So the thing was, this all happened right across from Washington Square Park. And it was a nice day out. So tons of people were out just enjoying the weather. Yeah.

So there were tons of witnesses to the most horrible thing that had basically happened. Ever happened, yeah. A lot of the witnesses talked about it afterward. And the one thing that people kept saying was the thing they could never forget was the sound of the bodies hitting the pavement. Holy shit. Yeah. The fire lasted 18 minutes. In that time, it ate through three floors of the factory and killed 146 people.

Oh, my gosh. killed 146 people oh my gosh 123 women 23 men more than 90 of them jumped to their deaths oh i'm sorry it's fucking terrible new york had never dealt with this level of tragedy before just on a practical level city officials were asking themselves how are we going to do like the most basic thing like identifying all these yeah so they set up this makeshift morgue because obviously a normal morgue could not accommodate this and again there are pictures of this too it almost looks like a high school gymnasium type of deal where they laid out all these bodies and they had people line up and walk through and try to identify their holy shit

and in some cases it was really really hard because we're talking about like charred bodies. Or splattered bodies. One woman was identified by her stockings, which her loved one recognizes, you know, something about the way they were sewn up. Another young girl identified her mom by the braid in her hair because she was like, I did my mom's hair that morning. Oh, my gosh. There were tons and tons of funerals as people identified the bodies. And, you know, a lot of these people knew each other. So, like, they were going to the same funerals.

It had a horrible effect on the community. All but six of the bodies were identified. People were horrified and angry because they felt like so much of this could have been prevented. Yes. I'm going to go on a little tangent here that is relevant okay a few years earlier in 1909 the women of the triangle shirtwaist factory participated in a huge workers strike that a lot of new york city women participated in they wanted safer working conditions they wanted better hours and better pay.

A lot of the other factories in New York City worked with the unions and made a compromise. Not triangle shirt waste. I saw stories like they hired prostitutes to fill in for the women, just kind of as like a fuck you. They bribed city officials. They paid dudes to go threaten and harass the striking workers of course the police harassed them too and of course like two years later the police were the ones picking through their bodies yeah they felt a little bad sorry i'm really... What the fuck? I just, like... It makes me so mad. Like, these police are, like...

They were taking these women in under the instruction of these triangle shirtwaist owners on, like, bullshit charges. And they're like, yeah, okay. Yeah, you're not getting safer working conditions. You're not getting... And then, like, two years later, they're like, oh, shit. Am I being ridiculous?

It's quite the thing. What? Do you see how many we have to scrape those bodies off the ground? What do you mean? What the fuck? You think that's maybe a little extreme? I am fired up. And when I'm fired up, I don't always get real logical about it.

I'm just very angry. Fuck those guys. I'm sure some of them were nice and fine. That's fine. All right. I'm sure some of them were nice and fine. That's fine. All right.

So when the women of Triangle Shirtwaist ultimately went back to work, they didn't have any new rights. And in the aftermath of the fire, that really stung. Yeah. On April 5th, 1911, there was a huge funeral march for all the victims and it was led by unions more than 350 000 people showed up to protest the way these people died the consensus was this was a tragedy and it was totally preventable because if the owners max blank and isaac harris hadn't those doors, or if they had installed sprinklers, or maintained the fire escape better, or maybe if they'd made sure the damn hose worked, then maybe these people wouldn't be dead.

Yeah. Or maybe not so many of them. Pretty soon more info comes out about our boys, Max and Isaac. Mm-hmm. This wasn't their first workplace fire. Really? Between 1902 and 1910, they had four factory fires. Oh, my gosh.

Here's the difference, though. They started those fires themselves. For insurance? Yep. Wow. It was? Yep. Wow. It was the end of season, and they had a bunch of shirtwaists that weren't going to sell. So, oopsies, they caught on fire. Oh, my gosh.

So, to me, that's kind of why you might not want to install sprinklers. Yep. You're absolutely right. Right? I mean, you're setting intentional fires yes wow people wanted justice for the victims of this tragedy and they got it pretty quickly those two fuckers were indicted for manslaughter and they hired an excellent lawyer whose name I'm having trouble pronouncing. Max Stewart?

S-T-E-U-E-R Stewart? Yeah. Sure. Whatever. The trial was huge news. It got a ton of attention. And what this all came down to was, did Mac and Isaac lock those doors? And if they didn't lock the doors themselves, did they know they were locked? Grieving families attended the trial and at one point on the second day max and isaac came out of an elevator and the families just went nuts yeah screaming murderer

i want my baby back yeah i'm sorry i i just thought of I Want My Baby Back as in the Chili's. Chili's Baby Back Ribs. That is wrong. Barbecue sauce. So the prosecution called more than 100 witnesses, including workers, firemen, policemen, tons of people. They told horrific stories from that day. One firefighter talked about walking onto the scene once the flames were out and feeling something soft beneath his feet and realizing that he was standing on bodies. Holy shit.

Firemen also testified that they had to chop through the doors. Probably locked, right? So the prosecution had a ton of witnesses, but their best witness was expected to be Kate Alterman. When she took the stand, she told the jury about how she'd worked for Triangle, and she'd been there the day of the fire. And she saw firsthand her friend run for a door and be unable to open it. And of course, that friend died. Her testimony was really important because the prosecution had had these guys on second degree manslaughter. I think first degree manslaughter for this one particular woman.

Yeah. So like it needed to be proven that she really tried to get out. Yeah. By the time she finished testifying, Kate was crying, and the jury seemed pretty moved. Clearly, Max and Isaac had locked the door, and if they hadn't, then more people would have survived. Her testimony looked horrible for the defense. But Max Stewart stands up to cross-examine her and he asks her a bunch of questions like and there are questions that almost seem kind of like

why are you asking this like you know how long have you lived here where'd you come from do you have siblings yeah stuff like that and then he goes by the, could you tell us what happened that day one more time? So kind of weird, but she's like, okay. So she tells the whole story again. He's like, okay, okay. So you're from Philly? How long you lived in Philly? And how many sisters do you have?

And just like, again, off on this tangent, he goes, could you tell us that story one more time? What? She tells it again. They do the same thing over and over of him doing a few kind of weird questions he'd asked her to repeat the story, she'd used a lot of the key phrases exactly the same way. So he's like, she's reading from a script. Yeah, she's been coached. She's been coached by unions and the prosecution.

This isn't authentic. Oh, my gosh. And the prosecution stood up and he was like, and he tried to kind of help out and be like, hold on, Kate, tell us why you told it that way. And she's like, well, he asked me to repeat the same story. So I was trying to repeat the same story. But I mean, the defense made a really good point. Yeah, the damage was done. Yeah. Wow damage was done. Yeah.

Wow. I know. Later, the prosecution. That's a hell of a strategy. I know. I mean, this guy was brilliant. I, no kidding. Because you think, how can we recover from this?

Yeah. This young woman has just told this horrible story. Well, I'm going to have her tell it again. And I'm going to ask her a bunch of weird questions and have her tell it again and repeat, repeat, repeat. That is nuts. Yes. Wow. Huh. Later, the prosecution entered the lock from the locked door into evidence.

The prosecution proved that it came from the ninth floor. They showed it to the jury. Look, it's locked. But Stewart was on his feet again. He's like, how long did it take you guys to find that lock after the fire? 16 days. So Stewart's like, isn't it possible

that the lock was tampered with during that 16-day period? During that 16 days. So Stewart's like, isn't it possible that the lock was tampered with during that 16 day period? During that 16 days, yeah. Couldn't someone have taken it from the site, messed with it, and then brought it back to the site? And once again, he's implying that unions are behind this. The defense called their own witnesses, workmen, painters, cler clerks who all said that the doors were always unlocked wow later one of the owners isaac harris took the stand the prosecution's argument was look max and isaac always locked the doors during business hours it was basically their policy and they did it because they were obsessed with this idea

that the workers might steal from them. And when he took the stand, Isaac kind of played into it a bit. He went off on this story about how he'd caught six workers stealing a couple shirtwaists in 1908. So he had to keep an eye on people. He had to have these rules about which door you'd enter from and which door you'd exit from for work prosecutor was like he got up and was like oh sad story could you please estimate the magnitude of these losses no shit could you put a dollar amount on it? Yeah. And at that

point, Isaac did get embarrassed. And he was like, it'd be about $25 a year. Yeah. Adjusted for inflation. It's about $650 a year. The trial came to a close after three

weeks. More than 150 people had testified, 100 from the prosecution, 50 from the defense. The jury was all men. They deliberated for less than two hours. You know how it's going. Yep. They declared them not guilty. Yep.

Afterward, one of the jurors said, I believe that those doors were locked, but no one proved that Max and Isaac knew the doors were locked. Wow. The public, just like me, was outraged by this. Yes. After the fire, Max and Isaac kept Seward as their lawyer. I really think i'm pronouncing that name wrong oh spell it again one more time s-e-u-e-r i think that's right i think it's sire because where how would it be sire because i feel like if i'd watched the documentary and they'd said sewer i would have been like yeah because he's a sewer person he's anyway sewer helped ensure that they got a full insurance payout after the fire holy shit so get this they actually profited from the fire wow because of the way he did it wow

two years later max blank found himself in trouble with the law once again. Would you like to guess what he did? Did it have something to do with fire? In a way. He was caught locking his factory door during working hours, which at that point was a no-no. It had always been a no-no. Yeah. The case went to trial and he basically said,

hey, I have to lock these doors. Otherwise people might steal from me. The judge found him guilty and find him $20. $20? It was the minimum amount required by law. And the thing I saw about this said that the judge was apologetic about it. Sorry, I have to do this.

Yeah. Wow. Mm-hmm. That's some justice there. Yeah. Fuck this guy. I like how you whispered that. Shut up!

Well, we have a lot of kids listening. In 1914, 23 families of the victims filed a civil suit against the guys. Yeah. Each family received $75. What? Which is about $1,800 in today's money. What a life's worth. Yeah, it's like no one gave a shit about these people.

Max Blank moved his family to California, and they changed the spelling of their name. I'm not sure what happened to Isaac, but it seems like these guys did fine. Oh my gosh. So this all sounds 100% horrible. Yeah. But there is a big, big silver lining to this. Okay, is this the part where you tell me that workplace conditions had to be? This is the reason now we have to have this door remain unlocked during business hours, posted on exits.

This changed a lot of stuff excellent lay it on me and i didn't even write down all the ways that it changed things because it it changed things so much so in the immediate aftermath new york instituted the sullivan hoey fire prevention law which made it so that all factories had to have sprinkler systems. It wasn't just like, could you please, if you don't mind. There were a bunch of other laws that historians say were inspired by this fire, including child labor laws, workman's comp, other safety laws. This story inspired activists and politicians. It's thought to be part of the inspiration for the New Deal.

Mm-hmm. And it basically had a ripple effect. Tell us about the New Deal, Kristen. I can't. Roosevelt, done. Did you see in my eyes that I didn't know? You're like, the New Deal? Please don't ask a single question.

that I didn't know. You're like, the new deal? Please don't ask a single question. This is the downside to doing this with someone who, like, you know me too well. When you've known someone since the fifth grade, like, you spot their bullshit, like, immediately. Damn it, Brandy. bullshit like immediately damn it brandy anyway it had a ripple effect that made workplaces more safe across the united states

it gave new energy to labor unions and basically made working people say we've got to stand up for ourselves yeah i'm so mad at you for asking. I am slamming my laptop shut and I'm leaving. Storming out of here. So a lot of people say that this tragedy has largely been forgotten. But some historians have dedicated years of research to it. Here's something that I think is really cool. So obviously, this is not the cool part.

146 people died. That is so cool. And six of them were never identified. But a researcher named Michael Hirsch always hated that these people weren't identified. Yeah. So he spent four years poring over records manuscripts newspapers doing everything he could and in 2011 he identified all six of those holy yes that's amazing it's really really cool yeah and he even compiled like little bios on each of them so it's not just you know a person's name yeah he he did the work that's amazing

so now we know the names of every single victim of the fire yeah are you gonna read all 140 of them yes it'd be disrespectful if i didn't make this story so much worse so i want to end with a survivor's story in 2001 at 107 years old the last living victim of the fire died holy shit her name was rose friedman she sounds like an amazing badass she was 17 in 1911 two days away from her 18th birthday, the day of the fire. She did a few interviews later in life. And Rose said that when the fire broke out, she thought to herself, okay, the only people who are going to get saved are going to be the owners. So I believe she was on the ninth floor.

So she picks up her skirts, throws them above her head, and starts yelling to her coworkers, follow me, follow me. They go up to the 10th floor. Nobody's there. They're like, okay, they're safe though. They've got to be safe. So they go up to the rooftop. And sure enough, by that point, there were police and firemen who were there with a ladder. And so she was able, with some of her coworkers who followed her, to go on to the other building. Holy shit, me too! Holy shit! And so I don't know how many people she saved that way, but her kids and grandchildren got letters from the survivors.

Yeah. You know, descendants just saying, thank you. Your grandmother, your mother saved my mother's life. That is amazing. Rose went on to have an incredible life. She saved some dude's life during, I think it was like World War II. She always wore high heels. She lied about her age.

And she always attended labor rallies. Oh my gosh. She's amazing. By the way, her granddaughter, I think is the CEO of Fox now? 20th Century Fox. Excellent.

Maybe president. I don't know. Someone big. She said that after the fire. Maybe she has a pet fox. We're not really sure. Actually, it's just some lady who dressed up as a fox for Halloween one year. Maybe she's not that big a deal.

Halloween one year. Maybe she's not that big a deal. So Rose said that after the fire, one of the owners tried to bribe her into saying that the doors were unlocked. And she was like, no way. Not doing it. Good for her. Go Rose. I'm going to read you a little bit

from an interview she did. She ended up speaking seven languages by the end of her life i mean wow she sounds like a total inspiration yeah and until she was 107 like she was still active buying her own groceries doing her own thing she always told people age is just kind of a state of mind yeah that's nuts so i don't even like buying my own groceries now i'm 31 when we're 70 we're gonna look 70 we can try to lie about our ages but people will be like that's sweet so here's what she said that's the whole trouble of this fire. Nobody cares. Nobody. 146 people in half an hour.

I have always tears in my eyes when I think, it should never have happened. The executives with a couple of steps could have opened the door, but they thought they were better than the working people. It's not fair because material, money, is more important here than everything. That's the biggest mistake, that a person doesn't count much when he hasn't got money. That's amazing.

Yeah. Wow. So the building where the fire took place is still standing and it's now owned by NYU. Wow. I cannot imagine taking classes there. I think that would be really weird. Yeah. Huh.

Are you going to be okay? Yeah. That story is so crazy. Yeah. And I've never heard anything about it. That was a horribly sad story, but it was super interesting. Are you glad or not glad? Yeah, I was like on the edge of my seat the whole time.

Yeah, it's one of those things that's horrible to learn about. But I'm so glad that after it, people were like, okay, we didn't get justice in the court system but we're going to change things yes and one of the people who was really upset about this was the fire chief yeah because he knew that things weren't safe but he didn't have the power yeah you know because people were like this is america can't regulate us blah blah blah business business business and I take back my harshness about those police officers I realize that it might have been a little cold there you know what's funny is like I thought you'd totally agree with me

and then when I saw the look on your face I I was like, am I out on a weird limb right now? Oh my gosh. Am I doing something strange here? So I wasn't going to do this case this week. Yes, you were. I wasn't. You promised. I was going to.

So, you know, I've been doing this kind of series of old-timey kidnappings yeah i was going to do a different case but there's a law that they cited in that that is a result of the lindbergh kidnapping and so i was like i gotta do this one first and then i can do wrap it up with the next one because i wanted to save this one for the last one because it's the most famous old-timey kidnapping well i'm not a very patient person so i'm glad you're doing it today um okay so i pulled my info for this from famous trials.com and fbi.gov so charles limberg he was an american hero but at the age of 25 in 1927 he was an unknown u.s airmail pilot who was thrust into the spotlight and gained worldwide fame when he completed the first solo flight across the atlantic this was something that many people had tried and had failed at and had died trying to do it oh shit

yeah that's what that means like failing oh yes and so he completed the 3600 mile trip in 33.5 hours in his plane the spirit of st louis that was built completely with this goal in mind. He got a backer who, you know, paid for the plane. It was like, I don't know, $15,000 for the plane or something like that. And he completed this flight. It was just him alone for 33 hours. And it was a nonstop flight. Well, yeah, no potty breaks.

Do you think he wore a diaper? I would hope he wore a diaper. I don't really know. This is when it's helpful to be a dude. I've always... Sorry. Are you going to talk about penises right now, Kristen? Because we all know you're obsessed with penises.

Listen, on road trips and stuff, I have always thought it would be so much more convenient. What do you think he did? Just whipped it out and peed off the side of the plane? No, I think he had a jar. I think he had an old-timey mason jar. All right. That's fine. That's what you want to picture.

I think he wore a diaper. Or limited his beverages. I think definitely limited his beverages. I don't think he got on the plane with a big goal. So when he completed this flight, he was presented with the Orteg Prize. Orteg Prize. Orteg Prize. I don't really know.

O-R-T-E-I-g sure um which was 25 000 whoa adjusted for inflation 360 000 okay that's not as much as i was expecting but still great um so this prize was created in 1919 by hotel owner raymond orteague to be given to the first person to complete this task. And it was in an effort to increase interest in aviation. Yeah. And it worked big time. Interest in aviation after Lindbergh completed this flight skyrocketed. And he was the biggest celebrity in the world at that time he was given the distinguished flying cross

which is you know some kind of award and the congressional medal of honor okay now there's why you didn't lead with that i don't know um after receiving those honors he embarked on a goodwill tour that spread nope he embarked on a goodwill tour to spread the word about the growing field of aviation it was on this tour that he traveled to mexico city on the invitation of u.s ambassador dwight morrow during that trip, he met the ambassador's daughter, Anne Morrow. It took Charles 10 months to ask Anne Morrow on a date. What? Yes. But on their third date, he proposed marriage and she accepted. So he got like really confident really fast. Yes. Charles and ann were married in a small ceremony at the morrow estate in new jersey on may 27th 1929 and on june 22nd 1930 they were blessed with the birth of their first child

were they both super good looking um yeah like uh and morrow yeah she's fine looking uh charles limburg also fine looking but he's just like you know this strapping man he's like he was like six three i looked up his height because i saw a picture of him receiving yeah the ortig prize and he looked and so i looked up his height six three in that day and age was like a freaking giant adjusted for inflation six seven um when i looked up his height i will tell you that also like popped up like people also search search for howard hughes six four i think that's interesting they say tall people like i don't know well oh you're gonna dispel some knowledge about how great tall people are, Kristen? They say we're strictly better than shorter people. Things were going great for the Lindbergh family.

They had given birth to their first child. They named him Charles. Hold on, she gave birth. I mean, let's not spread the credit. Okay, Anne Morrow pushed Charles Augustus Lindbergh Jr. out of her womb. And a family. And a family was created. That is so sweet.

Go on with this sweet story. Hope it doesn't take a turn. Things were going great for the Lindbergh family but Charles hated the media spectacle that followed them everywhere they went so in 1931 they built a secluded estate in Hopewell New Jersey not far from the Morrow estate life was good for lucky Lindy then on march 1st 1932 tragedy struck it was a cold rainy night the nanny betty gow put the 20 month old lindbergh baby down in his crib at 7 30 p.m when she went in to check on him about 10, Gow discovered that baby Charles was no longer in his crib. She ran to check to see if the baby was with his mother and after finding her getting

out of the tub alone, Gow ran to alert Charles Lindbergh that the baby was missing. They all went to the nursery and Charles recounted that around 9.30 as he was sitting in the library directly below the nursery that he had heard a loud noise that he believed was the slats of a crate breaking in the kitchen. So like fruit and stuff, all of your groceries came in these wooden crates. And so he thought that wouldn't have been wasn't alarming. No. A sweep of the nursery led to the discovery of a small envelope sitting on the radiator case near the window. It held a ransom note, which read in poorly written English,

Dear Sir! Have $50,000 ready, $25,000 in $20 bills, $15,000 in $10 bills, thousand dollars in ten dollar bills and ten thousand and five dollar bills after two to four days we will inform you where to deliver the money we warn you for making anything public or for notifying the police the child is in good care So $50,000 in 1932 adjusted for inflation would be approximately $914,000 today. Okay, yeah, that's more like it. It's a hefty ransom. Yeah. It's a hefty ransom.

Within 20 minutes, police were at the Lindbergh home. A search outside the house uncovered a broken three-piece homemade extension ladder. So this thing was kind of a it took some engineering to make so it was this like it was this ladder that was made a wooden ladder that was made in three sections that would interlink with each other to create this ladder that could then you could climb all the way to this second story bedroom window but it came apart so that it could be transported without you know having to be sure on this you know giant truck it was clearly something that had been engineered specifically

for this that was not something somebody bought in a store it was a handmade ladder was it well made it was it was fairly well made okay okay but it was broken well Well. The design was good. Okay. Okay. The craftsmanship. Craftsmanship? Maybe not so much. The side rails of the middle section were split, suggesting that the ladder broke when the kidnapper descended with the baby.

be investigators also found a chisel and two sets of footprints leading away from the house in a southeasterly direction towards the tracks of a getaway car for some unknown reason the footprints were never measured what the yes one article i said read one article i read said that the footprints were impossible to be measured uh no no i don't believe that that could be the case so for whatever reason they weren't measured that is unreal to me yes by the next morning word of the kidnapping had been broadcast to the world and reporters cameramen curious onlookers souvenir hunters swarmed the lindbergh estate just like the torn love letters case you know all these old-timey cases people wanted a damn souvenir any evidence not yet retrieved by police

was lost in the stampede oh my god so anything they didn't gather that first night out the window this much like the baby oh oh sorry that's in poor taste Sorry. That's in poor taste. Okay, well, at least I didn't wish horrible things to those police officers. Hey, they didn't seem like such nice guys. Charles Lindbergh made it clear to investigators that he wanted the police to allow him to negotiate with the kidnappers without interference.

No arrests were to be made until the ransom was paid and the baby was safely returned. Yep. The Lindberghs broadcast a message to the kidnapper or kidnappers on NBC radio promising to keep confidential any arrangements that would bring their baby back safely. So they're like, yeah yeah maybe the police are involved maybe this kind of got out of hand in the press but we assure you you are negotiating only with us we will keep everything private just give us our baby back yeah i want my baby back you didn't think we'd get to do that twice did you not um

Chili's this episode is brought to you by Chili's we want our baby back baby back ribs barbecue sauce you tried to stop yourself but you couldn't you're like i gotta finish it

so this kidnapping was huge news oh yeah obviously and everyone was getting involved and i mean everyone that's not good al capone what called the kidnapping the most outrageous thing he'd ever heard of and offered ten thousand dollars for information leading to the return of baby lindy yes al capone the gangster when a gangster is offended you know you messed up oh my god and then there was this weirdo john condon condon was a retired principal and well-known personality in the bronx new york and on march 8th he published a letter in the Bronx Home News offering to work as a go-between for Lindbergh and the kidnapper. He also offered to put up $1,000 of his own money on top of the ransom to show that this was all in good faith. Like he just,

he knew that Lindbergh couldn't be going out there and negotiating directly with a kidnapper. And so he was willing to be the person to go in between. And the Lindberghs had been looking for a go between because they knew that they couldn't just go out there. Do not tell me they took him up on this. They sure did. No. What? Both the Lindberghs and the kidnapper agreed to this arrangement. And the kidnapper began a series of communications

through notes to condoms yes i would also like to be involved yeah and then it happened and then it happens so there were i don't know a series of like i want to say somewhere between 10 and 15 notes that were communicated to this John Condon guy. And after like five notes or so, I, of course, didn't write any of this down, led to the first meeting between Condon and the kidnapper. They met in a cemetery. Oh, the kidnapper had a handkerchief tied over his face. Sure. And he told Condon to call him John. And Condon said that he spoke with a heavy German accent.

And he asked if Condon had brought the ransom money. And he said, no, you know, I can't bring the ransom money until we see the baby. And he apparently seemed very nervous and condom was like you know nobody here wants to hurt you everybody just wants to get the baby back safely and this john this kidnapper said i'm afraid i'll burn and he's like what what do you mean he's like what if the baby's dead what will happen then will i burn if the baby's dead oh my god i've never heard this and he's like what do you mean if the baby's dead whoa whoa whoa and the guy's like no no the baby's fine the baby's fine oh baby's totally fine everything's fine the baby's on a boat. He's being watched by two women.

Everything's great. Oh, God. And so Condon's like, I need some proof that the baby's OK and that you have the baby. And so like the next day, Condon gets a package in the mail and it is a wool sleeper for a baby, like pajamas. And so he takes it to the Lindberghs, and they're like, yes, this is what the baby was wearing that day. That's not proof that the baby was alive. You are correct, Kristen. So they're like, yes, that's what he was wearing.

But by this time, almost a month has gone by since the kidnapping and charles limberg is getting really worried he's like the kidnapper is going to lose patience we have got to get this ransom together we've got to get it to him i don't want him to lose his patience and harm our baby yeah and so he calls in the irs and the irs helps him put together the ransom authorities okay um urge them to use gold notes okay so the united states was in the process of getting off of the gold standard and so there were all these gold notes in circulation that were being taken out of circulation. So they're like, we'll make the ransom in these gold notes, which look like regular dollar bills.

They just have instead of the green seal that our money has now, they have a gold seal on them. And so we're going to make the ransom exactly like they've requested, the $50,000, and we'll break it down in the bills just like they wanted. But instead of regular bills, they're going to be gold notes okay they'll be easier to track that way because there's so fewer so many fewer of these in circulation anymore so many fewer shut up as soon as i said it i was like that's not a phrase. That's not what people say. I like it though. So on Saturday, April 4th, they turn the ransom over to Condon.

Condon meets with the kidnapper and hands it over. The kidnapper gives him an envelope that holds the exact location of baby lindy the note said the baby was being held on a 28 foot boat off the coast of martha's vineyard and at dawn the next morning charles limberg was in his plane flying along the coast of the atlantic looking for this vessel called nelly the search The search would be in vain, though. No such boat was ever found. So now the ransom's been turned over, but they still have no baby. It wasn't until May 12, 1932,

over two months after the kidnapping, that the body of the missing baby was accidentally found it was partially buried badly decomposed and only a couple of miles from the lindbergh home the discovery was made by william allen a truck driver who stumbled upon the remains after he walked into a wooded area to relieve himself. An autopsy revealed that the baby had been dead at least two months and that he died from a blow to the head. Investigators believe that he likely died during the kidnapping and a fall from the ladder.

So when the kidnapper was bringing the baby down the ladder, the ladder broke, the kidnapper and the baby fell, and the baby down the ladder, the ladder broke. The kidnapper and the baby fell and the baby died right then. After the discovery of the baby only a couple of miles from the Lindbergh home, investigators turned their focus to people close to the Lindberghs. They believed it was most likely an inside job or that it was done by someone who was close to the family. They zeroed in on Violet Sharp, a maid at the Morrow estate. So this is Anne's family's estate, which is just right by the Lindbergh estate. This Violet had been questioned three times by investigators, and she seemed abnormally nervous during questioning and she gave contradictory statements to investigators on june 10th 1932 just before violet was to be

questioned a fourth time she took her own life by ingesting silver polish and cyanide investigators were later able to confirm her alibi, though, and it was determined that fear over losing her job, genuine sadness over the death of the baby and the pressure of intense police questioning led to her suicide. So this poor woman. That is so sad. Takes her own life and she it's genuinely believe that she had nothing to do with the kidnapping she was just super nervous because it was such a big deal yes yeah so what was her alibi uh she was on a date oh well that would have been pretty easy it was but she gave so the okay so i didn't write this

down so this information is only going to be 37 correct okay um i'm just trying to new deal you right now she was on a date um and the man she was on a date with had two different last names and so she gave them one last name but his legal last name was a different last name. And so at first it didn't check out. And then when they discovered that he had two different last names, they were able to verify it. Yeah. Horribly sad. Yeah.

Yes. So police are focusing on people around the Lindberghs, but public suspicion began to fall on this John Condon. They're like, yeah, this guy's weird. He's super weird, but he was cooperating with investigators and there was no evidence that there

was anything nefarious about his involvement in the case but people thought he was weird and so he was not he thought that he was this hero no you know for stepping in but that is not how people were treating him in the public no he was a big weirdo yes by 1933 the investigation was growing cold. Investigators were tracking the gold notes used for the ransom, but their use was spread all across New York City. Then, toward the end of 1933 and into 1934, their use began to concentrate in a German-speaking area of the city, which matched up with what Condon had said, that the kidnapper had had a strong German accent. Finally, on September 18th, 1934, investigators got a break.

As a teller at Corn Exchange Bank and Trust was checking gold notes taken in on a deposit against those on a list of ones included in the ransom she got a match wait so did people in stores all over no so she's specifically at a bank so they're only checking them at the bank gotcha so she takes in a deposit at the bank and there's gold notes in there so she checks them across checks it against the list and it's a match this one wasn't from the ransom can you imagine how exciting that was yeah and she remembered taking this bill in on deposit she remembered that it had come from a proprietor of a gas station so she turns all of this information over to investigators and they go to this gas station and they speak to the filling station attendant who remembered taking

the gold note. He described the man that paid with it as speaking with a German accent. Oh my God. And said that something had just seemed odd about him. He couldn't put his finger on it. He just thought he'd seemed odd. And so

he'd written the man's license plate number on the gold note. Yes. Whoa. He was like, you know what? This guy's weird. Sub the scenes off. I'm just going to write down his plate number.

Nothing ever happened at the gas station, so he never thought anything else of it. He just, you know, the gold note got deposited and whatever. Yeah. So the police look up this plate number and it's registered to richard huptman h-a-u-p-t-m-a-n-n huptman okay he is a 35 year old carpenter when they arrested him he had a 20 gold note in his possession and a search of his home turned up 1830 dollars of the lindbergh ransom hidden behind a board in his garage there you go and another 11 930 dollars of the ransom was hidden in a shellac can also in his garage.

Hopman had a perfectly reasonable explanation for how he came to be in possession of this ransom money, though. I'd love to hear it. So Isidore Fish had put some items in his garage for safekeeping while he went on an extended trip back to Germany. But some months after he'd sailed for Germany, he died of tuberculosis. Oh, great. Yeah. When Hopman received word that Fish had died and wouldn't be returning for his belongings, he'd gone them and discovered the money and decided he would spend it he hadn't even told his wife about the discovery um investigators were pretty suspicious of this story though huh and the suspicion only grew when they discovered a smudged phone number written on the trim of a closet door inside the Huffman home.

The phone number belonged to John Condon. Oh, man. Then, in the Huffman attic, investigators discovered a sawed-off board that appeared to be a match of the boards used in the construction of the extension ladder used in the kidnapping. On September 24th, 1934, Richard Huffman was charged in New York court with extorting $50,000 from Charles Lindbergh. Two weeks later, Huffman was indicted in New Jersey on charges of murder for the death of baby Lindy. And New York agreed to extradite Huffman to stand trial in New Jersey on charges of murder for the death of baby Lindy and New York agreed to extradite Huffman to stand trial in New Jersey right the trial was set for January 2nd 1935 in Flemington New Jersey by New Year's Day Flemington overflowed with 700 reporters and thousands of curious spectators.

Even celebrities came to see the trial that was being called the trial of the century. One reporter called the trial the biggest story since the resurrection. Oh, my God. Vendors sold souvenirs, including miniature versions of the kidnap ladder oh ew fake locks of baby lindy's hair oh and photos of charles lindbergh okay well that at least isn't gross it's not gross or creepy but i don't this is this the selling of souvenirs is fucking weird yeah yeah 71 year old judge thomas trenchard presided over the trial while the attorney general for new jersey david willence argued for the prosecution and hopman was represented by edward j reilly by Edward J. Riley. At 10 o'clock on January 2nd, 1935, the trial was underway. In his opening

statement, Willens outlined the prosecution's theory of the case. He described how Hopman, carrying a burlap bag, climbed the ladder and entered the nursery then as he came out of the window and down the ladder with the baby the ladder broke he had more weight going down than he had when he was going up and down went the baby in the commission of this burglary burglary no the child was instantaneously killed with a blow to the head from the fall from the ladder. The jurors hung on every word. Finally, he closed by telling the jury, we will be asking you to impose the death penalty. It is the only suitable punishment in this case. The prosecution began its case by calling Ann Lindbergh to the stand. She described to jurors the events of March 1st and Willits handed her items of clothing

her baby had worn on the night of the kidnapping and she identified them. Riley, for the defense, chose not to ask any questions and said, the defense feels that the grief of Mrs. Lindbergh needs no cross-examination. Fair. Yeah, I agree. I don't know that he was going to gain

anything from cross-examining her. Have her tell the same story again and again. See if she's really grieving or if she's being coached. Charles Lindbergh was the next to testify for the prosecution and he told the jury how at 9 or 9.30 he had heard a noise that sounded like

a crate breaking in the kitchen or like an orange box falling off a chair. What he likely heard was the ladder breaking and his baby dying. That is so sickening. That is horrible. On cross-examination, Riley pursued a bizarre line of questioning. a bizarre line of questioning. He suggested that the kidnapping and murder was carried out by neighbors upset over Lindbergh's decision to cut off access to a forest in which they like to hunt. Continuing with questioning, Riley suggested that Lindbergh was negligent in not looking into the backgrounds of his maid and other household servants and that those servants might somehow have been responsible for the crime.

He insisted that Lindbergh's dogs did not bark and alert anyone the night of the kidnapping because it was an inside job. So the Lindberghs famously had dogs. Now that is interesting. And they didn't bark. They didn't alert to any kind of stranger and they by all accounts barked a lot yeah finally riley attempted to cast suspicion on condon asking lindbergh if he'd ever considered the fact that maybe condon had published his letter in the newspaper just so that he could respond to it himself so condon was the kidnapper and he'd posted this letter in the newspaper to act as a go

between between himself yeah which was kind of a public opinion like pretty much the public opinion at the time i i can get behind that yeah i can understand yeah on the fourth day of the trial betty gow the nanny was and the last person to see the baby alive testified and she told the jury that she was the one who went to the morgue and identified the baby and that she was able to do so even in his advanced state of decomposition because of a couple of factors the first was that the baby was still wearing a sleeveless undershirt that she had made for him so she was could easily recognize it the second was that baby lindy had two toes on one foot that kind of like crossed one over the other in kind of an unusual manner yeah and this was present on the foot of the body that she identified at the morgue

she was the one to go i think because it was deemed too difficult for the parents to have to do it and so it was like well let's see if the nanny can do it first yeah and then if she can't then we'll bring in the parents i'm guessing would is kind of the okay process but she was able to identify him the prosecution also called amandas hotchmuth that's rightandus. He was an 87 year old witness who lived on the road leading to the Lindbergh estate. He took the stand to tell the jury that on the morning of March 1st, 1932, he saw a man in a green car with a ladder in it pass his house and proceed toward the Lindbergh home. Oh, my gosh. Hotchmuth said that the man in the car had glared at him. Oh, my gosh.

Hotchmuth said that the man in the car had glared at him. And the man you saw looking out of that automobile glaring at you. Is he in this room? Willens asked. Yes, Hotchmuth answered, pointing his finger at Hoffman. As he did so, a power failure sent the courtroom into darkness. oh my god that is so scary defense attorney riley jumped up and offered an explanation for the lights going out saying it's the lord's wrath over a lying witness oh oh that's good that is crazy crazy yes you imagine being in that courtroom i would be like i'm about to die

for sure the lights are gonna come back on and half of us will be dead yes oh my god so the judge gets everybody settled down and the prosecution calls the most widely anticipated witness of the trial, John Condon. Willens led Condon through a series of questioning that led up to the meeting where he handed over the ransom money. When asked who he gave the money to, Condon said John. And when asked who John was, Condon said without hesitation, Richard Hoffman. John was, Condon said without hesitation, Richard Hopman. Riley pointed out on cross-examination that Condon had been unable to identify Hopman in a lineup at the police station following his arrest. Yeah, because he was wearing a handkerchief and wasn't it at night and all that? But he'd even told police that Hopman was not the man he'd met because he lacked a fleshy lump on his thumb that he'd taken

particular note of during his meeting with john oh so this john that he met at the cemetery so they when they met at the cemetery so this is when they had the conversation about you know yeah no no i swear the baby's fine the baby's fine he noticed on his thumb that he had this weird, like, fleshy growth. And so when he, when Hopman was arrested and put into a lineup, that's something that Condon specifically looked for. All the people on the lineup. And it wasn't present on any of them. Wow. The prosecution's final witness was a wood expert who testified that the boards found in the attic and the boards that made up the ladder were a perfect match, stating that the wood for the ladder had to have come from Hopman's attic due to a match in wood grain and existing nail holes. Okay.

After this expert testimony, the prosecution rested. The defense's first witness was richard hopman speaking in a heavy german accent and broken english hopman denied any connection to the kidnapping or ransom notes and stood by his claim that the ransom money found in his garage was left there by his friend fish what do you think about that kristin i think that's bullshit i do too because okay then let's get records on this fish yeah let's yeah are you the only one who ever saw him right the defense called a string of alibi witnesses but none of them were very compelling a young swede named elvert call elvert carlson testified that he saw hoptman who he did not know until he saw his picture in the paper following his arrest in his bakery on the night of the kidnapping but under cross he confessed that

he couldn't begin to describe any other customers that appeared that same evening. Yeah, no. Yeah. Willens also revealed that Carlson was a thief and a bootlegger and had a history of mental instability. Well, there you go. Another witness, Austin Van Hinkie, claimed to have seen Hopman walking his dog in the Bronx at the time of the kidnapping. On cross, though, Van Hinkley turned out to be a speakeasy operator and a man of many aliases. Was this just like people all wanted to be a part of this? Yep. Okay. More on that in just a second. Okay. Witness Peter Sommer created a stir when he testified that he saw Isidore Fish with Lindbergh's maid, Violet Sharp.

But Sommer turned out to be a professional witness who testified for a fee. Oh, my God. Nearly every defense witness to take the stand was destroyed on cross-examination. cross-examination but what else is to be expected when the defense attorney puts out a public radio call for anyone who had seen hopman on or around the night of the kidnapping to come testify on his behalf all it produced was a bunch of publicity seeking crazies of course yes of course uh-huh crazies of course yes of course uh-huh yeah he got on the radio and was like anybody who saw him on this day come forward it is bullshit how is that even allowed i don't know i'm sure it wouldn't be allowed today but well it's like there's got to be some in between like yeah you want to cast a wide net and yeah yeah but if it's like it's going to be the trial of the century, would you like to be the focus of a lot of attention?

After presenting a total of 162 witnesses, lawyers delivered their closing arguments. Riley suggested implausibly that the crime was a conspiracy involving condon fish and sharp he theorized that the ladder was planted near the lindbergh house by clever disloyal workers to throw police off the track of what was really an inside job no sharp stole the child then committed suicide when she realized police were closing in no no willence then followed with a five hour summary of the evidence against hopman you don't have to talk for that long buddy you're just performing yes um he called hopman the lowest animal in the animal kingdom and public enemy number one of the world willens concluded by telling the jury that the defendant is either the filthiest vilest snake that ever crawled through the grass or he's

entitled to an acquittal there should be no thought of mercy if they were convinced of his guilt so basically if you think even a little bit that he's guilty you gotta you gotta go with that i think that's a weird strategy yeah either he's the worst person on the planet on the planet or he deserves some acquittal what is the point of that strategy i'm not sure me either after giving final instructions judge trenchard sent the jury out to begin deliberations at 11 21 on february 13th hold on this was about the death penalty right yeah maybe that's it maybe that's part of the strategy. Don't get soft. Yeah. Because if you get even the slightest bit soft, then you have to let this guy off the hook.

Yeah. Do you think that's... Yeah, I think that's a good point. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So the judge sends the jurors out at 1121 on February 13th to deliberate. Okay.

And they come back at 1028 that night. The jury had reached the decision. Jury foreman Charles Walton stood with trembling hands to announce, we find the defendant, Richard Hopman, guilty of murder in the first degree. Yeah. They sentenced him to death. Yeah. The trial was over. They sentenced him to death. Yeah. The trial was over. It had lasted 32 days.

The next day, Hopman was interviewed in jail by two reporters. Are you afraid to go to the electric chair? One of the reporters asked. You can imagine how I feel when I think of my wife and child, Hopman replied. But I have no fear for myself because I feel when I think of my wife and child, Hopman replied. But I have no fear for myself because I know that I am innocent. If I have to go to the chair in the end, I will go like a man, an innocent man. I think that's a pretty powerful statement.

It makes me question a little bit. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yes. I mean, I guess every person who's in jail claims they're innocent, right? I don't know. I would think most, yeah. The defense appealed the conviction, and after the New Jersey Appellate Court unanimously rejected

Hopman's appeal, lawyers for the convicted man asked the Board of Pardons to commute his service to commute his sentence to community service yeah just to community service that appeal was also rejected this time it was by a seven to one vote though hopman's loan support on the board came from new jersey's governor harold hoffman who believed that the kidnapping could not have been pulled off by one man alone. Well, it was... Really? That was what he believed. Sounds like a one-person kidnapping to me.

It went terribly wrong. That's what I thought. If anything, it's a testament to how you need to invite a friend. Yeah. Bring a friend along next time you're planning a kidnapping for ransom someone has to hold the ladder someone has to be there to spot yeah but one person wasn't enough to to change the decision of the board yeah so on april 3rd 1936

richard hopman was executed by electric chair at 8.44 p.m., still claiming his innocence. He even turned down a last-minute offer from a newspaper for a payment of $75,000, which adjusted for inflation would be $1.3 million, to be paid to his wife and son if he would give them a confession before his execution. He refused. Oh, my. Yeah. son if he would give them a confession before his execution he refused oh my yeah that's a bit of a question right because if he's going to be executed well why not take care of his family that's what i'm yeah it's like it's either

it's either he's super innocent and he doesn't want that kind of legacy. Yeah. Or maybe he is uncaring. Yeah. Cold. Yeah. Because you're you're leaving your wife and son. Mm hmm.

You've probably gone through all the money at this point. Yeah. you've probably gone through all all the money at this point yeah so and i think that point about either you're really super innocent or you just don't care i think it uh it makes this next part even more interesting so his wife anna spent the rest of her life fighting to clear her husband's name because clearly she believed that if he'd really done it, he would have given the confession and making sure that she was taken care of. Oh. Twice during the 1980s, she sued the state of New Jersey for unjust execution of her husband.

In the 1980s? In the 1980s. Wow. Both times, the case was dismissed on unknown grounds. She died in 1994 at the age of 95. She never remarried? Not to my knowledge. Not that I came across. I didn't look that much into her, though. Damn it, Brandi. Tell me about the new deal, Kristen! FDR did it. That's it. It was a deal unlike they'd ever had before. One could say it was, you know, all new.

For spanking new, it made things better for work and folks. Charles and Anne Lindbergh went on to have five more children. Trying to leave behind the publicity of the trial, the Lindberghs spent a lot of time in Europe in the mid to late 1930s. spent a lot of time in Europe in the mid to late 1930s. And during that time there, Charles Lindbergh became a fan of a revolutionary leader who shared his interest in eugenics. Oh, God, that guy was a man by the name of Adolf Hitler. You didn't know this? Oh, shit. Have you heard him? I'm believe it or not, I'm even more familiar with Adolf Hitler than I am with the New Deal. Officially, Lindbergh said that Hitler was a bit of a fanatic, but he shared his views on the importance of protecting European blood and guarding against dilution by foreign races oh my god um many people labeled him a nazi sympathizer uh that's a fair label it's not just a nazi period at the

very least he was publicly a non-interventionalist so he spoke publicly about how the United States should not get involved in World War II. They shouldn't intervene. It wasn't their place. Right. Don't stop the Nazis. Uh-huh. Yep. Yeah.

Oh. There was a... So Charles Lindbergh died at the age of 72 in 1974, and Anne Lindbergh died in 2001 at the age of 94. Wow. After Anne's death, it was revealed that Charles had engaged in multiple lengthy affairs in Europe in the 50s and 60s, and had fathered seven more children by three different women. Those children grew up having no idea who their father really was. He had used a pseudonym with them.

So they knew their father, but they did not know that their father was Charles Lindbergh. Oh, my God. This guy's so gross. American hero, Charles Lindbergh. Yeah. So there's one conspiracy theory about the Lindbergh kidnapping. I would love to hear it. That kind of goes along with the whole eugenics thing.

Uh-huh. So Charles Lindbergh, very into eugenics. Definitely believed in, like, pure breeding and all of this disgustingness. Yeah. And there's one theory that baby Lindy was a sickly child and had birth defects and stuff like that. And so it really was a staged death. And that he grew up in some kind of facility in Sweden somewhere. And they didn't really die or that he really did die.

But it was all planned by the family to get rid of the bad, not pure. Yeah. I mean, he was pure, but it wasn't. But it turns out Eugenics was bullshit. Was bullshit.

Yes. My goodness. That's devastating to hear. can't i don't know that i buy that i don't buy it either i'm not big into conspiracy theories but that's a that's a pretty big one that's thrown a lot around a lot about this trial i think it probably was hopman yeah but uh that's the case of the lindberger baby lindbergh baby kidnapping. That one's nuts. Yeah. So, yeah, I would say that's probably the most famous old timey kidnapping for Anson.

But there was a shit ton of stuff in there that I did not know about. And I still wonder about that John Condon guy. Did he just want to be in the limelight? Yeah. Yeah. I think so. You don't think there was anything more sinister to his motivation? I don't think so.

Well, no, I think it's sinister to want to be involved in a kidnapping. Yeah. What a weirdo. It's one thing if somebody comes to you and says, would you please be the go-between? We trust you. It's another thing to put an ad in the newspaper. Yeah.

I would like to involve myself. Yes. Yeah, that's bullshit. Super crazy. Oh, my God. That was a good one. Yeah. So, as a result of this kidnapping,

there was a law that was put into effect. It's called the Lindbergh. They still call it the Lindbergh Law. It has actually an official name, but it's known as the Lindbergh Law, which makes if you kidnap a... Interracial marriage illegal? Did I guess wrong? Yes.

If you kidnap someone and take them over state lines, it makes it a federal crime. Okay. Yeah. That's good. God, that's good. God. That's nuts. I've got one more old-timey kidnapping for us and then I gotta move on

to something else. Okay. I have just been way too obsessed with these kidnappings. I've enjoyed them. You know how much I love an old-timey one.

I really like them. So wrapping up the series on old-timey kidnappings next week. You know how much I love an old timey one. I really like it. So wrapping up the series on old timey kidnappings next week. You know, the one effect of you doing all these kidnappings is I feel like, man, people were always being kidnapped. Well, it was. It was like, that's what I mentioned on our last episode. It was like the thing to do like in the 30s. Well, because it was kind of before they had really strong punishments well if i want to make a quick buck yeah yeah it's crazy um may i tell you a story

about my weekend please okay so this weekend as you know norman was out of town yeah and anytime he's out of town i always think like something horrible is gonna happen uh-huh but anyway i think it was like friday night i don't think i helped in this instance because i was like what'd you say oh yeah i was like you messed with my head i totally did time to confess i totally did okay so last week we were talking about how norma was gonna be leaving and you know you guys just have the one car and so I was like what are you going to do without a car? What if there's an emergency, Kristen? And you're like

well, you know, there's Uber. I'll call Kyla. I'll be fine. And I was like, okay, if there's an emergency you have to call me. I'll be happy to come help you. Whoa, whoa, whoa. What will we possibly do if there's an emergency? Brandi didn't really offer her services. She was just like, you're going to be screwed.

I'm glad I could put that into your head. Jeez, I'm so sorry. So I was kind of paranoid. Imagine that. Yeah. Fall asleep Friday night. And then I wake up at 3 in the morning to Peanut going crazy. Barking nonstop.

And that's unusual. She doesn't just start barking in the middle of the night. So I'm like, oh, my God, someone's in the house. I get up, grab my cell phone, go to the top of the stairs just to listen. You say, hello, Mr. Murderer. No, you know what I would do? Hey, what's going on? I would not be like, hello.

I thought about this a lot. I would, if someone, if I knew someone hadn't seen me, man's voice all the way. Yeah, absolutely. And then I'd be like, that's my gun. No, so I go to the top of the stairs and I hear. No, so I go to the top of the stairs and I hear. And I was like, holy shit, someone has a power tool and they're trying to bust into the house. Oh, my God. I like I about lost my mind.

And I was like, OK, if they're using the tool, that means they're not in here yet. I'm going to run down the stairs, start screaming at them, try to scare them away. I'm going to call the cops. Like that's how this is going to go down. I run down the stairs.

I get into the living room. It was the Roomba. Kiki had stepped on the Roomba. Oh, my God. This is amazing. I thought death was just like minutes away. For sure. Holy crap. Oh, man. like minutes away for sure holy crap oh oh man it was so i've never gone from like that scared to that i don't know like just it's more it was more than relief because it was like so funny holy crap was your heart just like racing yeah because i was thinking like

i'm i'm gonna have to do like you know the tactics for like if you see a bear out in the woods you're supposed to make yourself bigger and like yeah i'm thinking okay that's my only option yeah just like try to scare the pants off somebody oh my gosh gosh. And interestingly, I was not wearing pants at the time, so like it's even less intimidating. I needed to bring them down to your level. Well, I'm so glad that it was just your Roomba.

Me too. Oh my gosh. Kiki. Not cool, man. She looked at me. She's like, what? What I knew. The place was filthy, so I decided.

I need to do some vacuuming. This bitch is upstairs asleep with the dog. I'm the only one who cares about cleanliness. I'm already done licking my ass, so I guess it's time for vacuuming. That's a good order to go in. On a totally different note. Yes. I got a message from my friend Franklin, who I went to law school with. Uh-huh.

And he was like, he asked, I think, the nicest question that could ever be asked about this podcast. I can't wait to hear it. So do you guys use, like, any legal experts? Like, do you talk to people when you're preparing for these cases that's a that's a big negative there it's a giant no but i did take that opportunity i was like uh no but see the thing about franklin is uh he went to all the semesters of law school not just the one not just the. I only thought there was one. I just didn't show up for the rest of them.

So I was like, if we have legal questions, can we come to you? And he said yes. Excellent. So we officially have a lawyer on retainer. Not really. Not really. Oh, my gosh. That's amazing. That's amazing.

That's awesome. Yes. Well, if you enjoy this podcast, Legal Expertise or not. Yeah. Please head on over to our social media. Find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Give us a like. Head on over to iTunes.

Give us a rating. Leave us a review. Even if you don't listen to our podcast through iTunes, it'd be awesome if you could head over there. And then join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process.

I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from FamousTrials.com, the History Channel, the New York Times, Cornell University, and the HBO documentary Triangle, Remembering the Fire. And I got my info from famoustrials.com and fbi.gov. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.