Let's Go To Court! - 251: A Bomb & an Irish Heiress

Episode Date: April 19, 2023

Barry Hornstein wasn’t sure what, exactly, was in his driveway. It looked like some sort of metal cylinder. Barry went to pick it up, but thought better of it. He gave it a kick instead. The second he did, the device exploded. Steel flew through the air, tearing through Barry’s leg. When he awoke later in the hospital, he received troubling news. He’d been the victim of a pipe bomb. But Barry had no known enemies. Who wanted him dead? Then Kristin tells us about a con woman who, in May of 2013, went by the name Mair Smyth. She told people that she was an Irish heiress. She boasted about her famous friends – namely Jennifer Aniston and Ashley Judd. She appeared generous. When she befriended her neighbor, Jonathan Walton, she treated him to a fancy dinner. She offered to help with his campaign to win back their apartment building’s access to a local pool. Jonathan had no idea that her friendship was fake. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Heiress Con” episode of The Con “The Hollywood producer, the “heiress” and a very personal quest for justice,” by Katie Kilkenny for The Hollywood Reporter “Queen of the Con” podcast JonathanWalton.com/how-she-conned-me In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Pipe Nightmare” episode Web of Lies “Pipe Nightmare” by Nick Budnick, Willamette Week “Goff Guilty: Pipe bomber cops a plea.” By Nick Budnick, Willamette Week YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 45+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about an Irish heiress. And I'll be talking about a bombing. It better be upbeat. Upbeat bombing, is what I say.

Yeah, there's so many upbeat bombings. Well, yeah, like, let me give you an upbeat bombing. You ready? Okay, I'm ready. Guy decides he's gonna bomb somebody. Fucks up on the bomb recipe. Nobody dies. Okay. All right, well, don't give me that look. You know I'm not my best self today. You know I'm not my best self today. Everybody, Norman and I took a road trip to Michigan and back. I'm running on no sleep. I'm barely holding it together.

Yeah. But I did have pea salad on Easter. I love pea salad. Oh, don't make that face. Pea salad is good. Mayonnaise based. Yeah, what do you fucking think? No, thank you you i actually like peas i don't think i'd be interested in pea salad i guarantee you wouldn't because there's also

onions in it i don't want that no thank you it's too much going on for you i'll just take the peas can i have the peas before they go in the pea salad oh yeah yeah you know what I am? I'm a short order cook. Uh-huh. Seems to me you've forgotten the reason for the holiday. Jesus is the reason for the season. I know. And Jesus is not going to save you an extra bowl of peas, okay? I bet. Do you know if Jesus even liked pea salad, Kristen? I don't know.

Okay. All right. I'm glad you admitted it. Hello, everyone. I bet you didn't think we were going to talk about Jesus eating pea salad, but we're full of surprises today. That's right. You never know what you're going to hear on this show. And for more surprises, head on over to our patreon smooth smooth

what do we have on patreon brandy 45 bonus episodes oh my goodness so many bonus episodes oh my gosh and uh the seven dollar level you get monthly zoom hangouts. Monthly? Monthly Zoom hangouts. What else we got over there on Patreon? Well, you know, you sign up, you get a sticker, you get our autographs. Yeah, that's right. You get into the Discord to chitty chat the day away. That's right. And at the $10 level, you get episodes a day early, a whole day away. That's right. And at the $10 level, you get episodes a day early,

a whole day early. That's right. So all those other chumps have no idea what the episode's about, but you know. Because you're rich. That's right. Yeah.

Sorry, poor losers. Oh, God. They're also ad-free, by the way. Yeah. Also, you get 10% off merch. Merch? Merchandise. Oh, yeah.

Is that a merch chance for it? Yeah, merch is business lingo for the word merchandise. And I know that because I myself own a business. That's right. Hey, did you ever go to service merchandise when you were a kid what it's like a weird store i don't even know what they sold wait how are you asking the question it's just a store that i remember having a really weird name okay there used to be one on like 91st and metcalf i remember going to like a clearance sale there when I was a kid.

It was like closing down. What were they selling? I don't remember. This is the weirdest thing to bring up. You've never heard of this store. Ma'am, it's the top of the show. Yeah, service merchandise. It was a retail chain of catalog showrooms carrying jewelry, toys, sporting goods, and electronics.

Okay, I remember getting a wedding Barbie there. It was a Barbie in a wedding dress. Well, that was worth talking about. Yeah. Thank you. So what I'm hearing is, no, you've never been to Surfer's Wedding. Yeah, okay, so sign up for our Patreon. We keep those episodes real tight.

It's still around. No extra fluff. Nothing about service merch. It's still around! Okay, and it's still around. You want to go to Shoney's and then go to the last remaining service merch? They got locations?

I think it might just be a website now. Oh, too bad. That is too bad. Well, they're selling leftover catalog shit. I mean, how much of that is leftover? Right? Yeah, all that's listed here on their website is a P.O. box in Boca Raton, Florida. Ooh.

All right. All right. Sorry. There's no Lansing, Michigan, I'll tell you that. Anyway, you want me to tell you about a bombing now? Yeah. All right. Sorry. There's no Lansing, Michigan, I'll tell you that. Anyway, you want me to tell you about a bombing now? Yeah. I guess. You don't sound real excited.

You know, I can't fake the enthusiasm, okay? I'm too real. Too hardcore. Too genuine, they say. I will tell you that this feels like a Kristen case. Oh. So I think you'll enjoy that part of it. You're not telling another story about a dude who shits his pants, are you?

I wish I was. No. I mean, that was like a gift. It was. It was. Okay. So this comes from two sources. Reporting from Nick Budnick, which is a wonderful name. Yeah. For

his reporting in the Willamette week. Okay. I've used this source before and I mispronounced it last time and everybody near that part of the country let me know. What part of the country was it? It's Willamette. Oh, uh-huh. I don't know that that's actually a place. It's the name of the newspaper, and it's based in the Pacific Northwest. All right. Anyway, I mispronounced it last time, and my mom corrected me, too. And so I reached out to her today to ask her how to pronounce it. Uh-huh.

Anyway, also, from an episode of Web of Lies. Oh, okay. It's a show you enjoy. Okay, I've... This was my first foray into Web of Lies. Mm-hmm. A little heavy on the reenactments for my taste. Oh, yeah, it's a real cheesy show.

But, I mean, if you're a podcaster looking for a story, it's not too bad. Yeah, it's a good story, yeah. All right, here we go. September 27, 2000 was just a regular Wednesday morning for Barry Hornstein. Barry lived in Laurelhurst, an upscale Portland, Oregon suburb. And on that day, he was still adjusting to his new normal. He had recently separated from his wife of nearly 20 years, Kathy. Barry didn't want the separation. Kathy had been the one to insist on it, and Barry was doing his best to support his children and keep his life moving

forward in the wake of that separation. On this particular morning, Barry made sure that his 17-year-old son Jack was up, ready for school, and out the door before getting himself ready for work. There hadn't ever been like a specific conversation that resulted in Jack living with his dad post-separation. As Jack recalls it, he said his sister stayed with his mom most of the time, so he stayed with his dad. Okay. The single dad life was not something that Barry was accustomed to, but Jack said he could tell his dad was trying his best,

though they did run out of milk pretty regularly. That Wednesday, Jack left for school. A lot of emotional labor that a woman does that a man maybe hadn't thought about. What? Sorry. You know, it's like the

you know, it's all the shit women do. Generally speaking, we're the ones worrying about this, that, and the other women do. Generally speaking. Yes. We're the ones worrying about this, that, and the other thing. We got 1,000 lists going in our heads at all moments. Yes. And little Barry's on his own for the first time. That's correct.

He keeps running out of milk. Running out of milk. That's right. So that particular Wednesday morning, Jack left for school just after 8 a.m. and Barry followed behind him a couple of hours later, heading out for just after 8 a.m. and Barry followed behind him a couple of hours later, heading out for work around 10 a.m. Barry walked to his car, opened the door, tossed in his briefcase, and that's when he saw something on his driveway. It was cylindrical

and covered in what appeared to be black tape. Barry walked toward the object and he bent down and started to pick it up, but he thought better of it. Instead, he kicked the cylinder. And that's when Barry said the world stopped for a moment. There was a loud explosion followed by a deafening ringing in his ears. Barry wasn't immediately sure what had happened. He was lying on his driveway with debris and shrapnel all around him when he caught a glimpse of his leg. His pants were shredded. Blood was pouring out all over the driveway. Barry knew he needed help and he needed it fast. The cylinder in his driveway had been a pipe bomb and Barry's leg had been blown to bits. Barry called for help and before long paramedics were on the scene and Barry was rushed to a nearby hospital for treatment.

Barry remembers being kind of in and out of it during this time. He recalls trauma staff at the hospital applying pressure and calling for more supplies. There was so much blood. I'm sure. Then Barry recalls a doctor speaking to him through like this haze of like he'd been given a bunch of pain meds by this point. So he's just kind of in and out of it. And he recalls this doctor talking to him and he was explained to him that the damage to his leg was too severe. The bone had been shattered.

He was missing massive amounts of muscle and tissue. And they they had no choice. They needed to amputate his leg below the knee and with that Barry was rushed into surgery so Barry is taken away to surgery and Barry recalls like just bits and pieces of that time right before he's taken a surgery he remembers one of the faces that he first saw during that pre-surgery triage time was this face of this like spooky looking gaunt man with high hollow cheekbones dressed in all black. Barry says when he saw this man looking at him, he thought, oh, my God, it's the Grim Reaper. He thought he was looking at death. Turns out it was actually just a police

detective just a skinny pale dude yeah a police detective named willem law named william law and he was there to ask barry some questions i like willem sorry you know i had to i have it burned into my head how to pronounce Willamette. So then I had to drop some letters from his name as well. Okay. I don't know who that is. Willamette is the name of the newspaper. Oh, right, right, right.

I'm sorry. Very good. All right. So now you can't even pronounce basic names. I can't even pronounce William correct now. Anyway, so he was trying to get some questions answered from Barry before he went into surgery. He wanted to know who had done this and why. And Barry's like, I don't fucking know.

Well, that is a really weird thing to do. Yeah. I mean, I think that this was just so shocking. This is like a very nice neighborhood and like a pipe bomb goes off on a Wednesday morning. Well, I don't care what neighborhood, like a pipe bomb. You know, of course. Yeah. That's just not a thing.

No, it's not a thing. Exactly. So they're like, what the fuck is going on here? So Barry goes into surgery. He comes out. He's doing fine. And he's just kind of like mulling over like this question that Detective Law had asked him. Like, who could have done this?

This question that Detective Law had asked him, like, who could have done this? And he couldn't think of anyone who would, like, wish this on his family. They had no enemies to speak of. And that's what he told the detectives. And they seemed to, you know, really take that for what it was. They thought Barry was probably telling the truth. And so they started talking to people who knew the Hornstein family, seeing if neighbors had seen anything, knew anything. And they were pretty much coming up empty. Neighbors described Barry as friendly, honest, ethical, which is a weird way to describe somebody.

But all right. He was 59 years old. He lived in the Portland area his whole life. He was 59 years old. He'd lived in the Portland area his whole life. And he'd had like the same job as an insurance agent for like 30 years. Okay. Barry was Jewish, but there was no evidence to suggest this was some kind of hate crime.

But when they were looking into the Hornsteins, they learned that Barry and Kathy had recently separated. So they wondered if there was something to that. Was Kathy trying to make sure she got... Pipe bomb seems a little extreme, but okay. Yeah. Well, anyway, so they look into Kathy. They're like, is it possible she's trying to secure some life insurance or not have to split their assets during a divorce? And when they spoke to Kathy,

they learned the real reason behind Barry and Kathy's separation. Barry had a gambling problem. Oh, no. Anyway, I'm going to take a drink right now. Was it a problem? It turns out Barry had a gambling problem. It's very different than a problem. He had lost the couple's life savings all to video poker machines but video poker yeah

that's the most embarrassing way to lose your life savings that is why i don't know i don't know it's like if you're in a dark room with a bunch of dudes cigars happening you know whiskeys all right there's i can respect i mean that's probably all still happening where the video poker machine is. Those are usually set up like at the bar. No, it's way less cool to lose your life savings to a video. All right. So they find out that Barry has lost his life savings in this very embarrassing manner. But it wasn't like he owed money to anyone.

There weren't like loan sharks out there hunting him down. How do you know, though? They looked into it. Yes. If this guy's got a, what'd you call it? A pabbling problem? Gambling problem is what I said. Maybe he's also, you know, gambling on all sorts of shit.

No, they didn't find any evidence of that. And it seemed like his gambling wasn't the source of any kind of bad blood other than between him and Kathy. Kathy had said that was the reason for their separation. But Kathy still very much loved Barry. separation but Kathy still very much loved Barry as soon as she heard about the bombing she had rushed to the hospital to be by his

side and she told the detectives there that like the whole point of this separation was to force Barry to get help for his problem not really to end their marriage she thought it would be the thing that would be the catalyst to him getting the help he needed.

Okay. She wanted to get back together with him, but she wanted him to fix himself first. Okay. So they're like, okay, great. So it's not some loan shark. It's not the estranged wife. So then they considered the next person closest to Barry, his 17-year-old son, Jack. Initially, it seems that they're like, oh, is he a suspect or is he a target?

We're not really sure. I think they really thought he was a potential suspect at first. He was the last person to leave the house that morning before this happened. They thought maybe Jack was like angry at his dad for causing this separation in his family. So they actually, while Barry was still in surgery, went to Jack's school and like questioned him. And he was like, no, I don't I don't know anything about this. I didn't I didn't see anything when I left the house. Like, no, I don't I don't know anything about this.

And they talked to some people who knew Jack and it seemed like he was a well-liked guy. He, you know, had a couple of people who didn't like him. A neighbor didn't like him. An ex-girlfriend said he was kind of a dick, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah. But like he wasn't. Pipe bomb worthy. No, no.

There was one thing that they found when they were investigating Jack that seemed kind of outside the realm of typical like teenage drama like with the neighbor not liking him and the other his ex-girlfriend not liking him there had been in the like couple of weeks prior to this bombing there were these anonymous flyers that had been distributed at school and like put up on like phone poles, telephone poles around his high school that said that Jack had raped a 13-year-old girl. Oh, my God. The posters claimed to be from the victim's older brother saying, this is what this guy did to my sister. Holy shit. But Jack said there was no truth to it.

He said he didn't know, have any idea who this possibly could be coming from and that he did have a girlfriend, but that she lived in another state. And he assumed maybe that like the ex-girlfriend that didn't like them had put these posters out about him, but he seemed even that like the ex-girlfriend that didn't like them had put these posters out about him. But he seemed even that seemed like not. Yeah, that's super extreme. And so then he was like, yeah, the pipe bomb for sure. There's no way that's like an ex-girlfriend or something.

I don't know what this is. Yeah. But detectives seem to think that Jack knew more than he was letting on. Well, yeah. And so they asked him to come in and take a lie detector test. And he agreed to do it. And he failed. So following this failure of this lie detector test,

the detectives took Jack in for further interrogation. They asked him what he knew about pipe bombs. And he said they didn't know much. And then they asked him if he'd ever looked up how to make a bomb on the Internet. Uh-oh. And Jack said that, yeah, he had. He said that he'd just done it, like, goofing around with friends one time. They were curious and they'd all like looked it up together. But that he didn't know how to make a bomb.

He just was being truthful. He had looked it up one time. It seems that the detectives at this point when they're doing this further interrogation, it really seems that they thought that like, OK. It doesn't seem that Jack has any knowledge of this. They did some consented searches of his computer history, I believe. I believe he let them look at his computer. They didn't find anything in line with any of this. They didn't find the source of those posters.

Because at this point they thought maybe he did this bombing and then he put up these posters as like a deterrent, thinking that somebody else had done it. Like a red herring? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Gotcha. But they don't find any of this on his computer and they're like, okay, maybe this guy really

is telling us the truth. And so they ask him to sit for another polygraph and he agrees to do so. And this time he passed it and they determined that he was just really nervous the first time. Okay. I mean, those things are bullshit was just really nervous the first time. Okay. I mean, those things are bullshit anyway. Well, absolutely. Yes.

So they've ruled out Jack as being a suspect here, but now they think maybe he was the intended target. Right. With these posters that have appeared and whatever else. Of course. have appeared and whatever. Of course. Several days after the bombing, this got like another layer added onto it when Jack got an anonymous letter sent to him from someone claiming to be the bomber. And the letter said, sorry for injuring Barry. The bomb was meant for Jack. The bomb was meant for Jack. Hmm.

So now the detectives are like, OK, so we've got Jack was the intended target here. They also by this point, I think, had determined that they actually do think that that bomb had been affixed to Jack's car with magnets. And then when he went to back out of the driveway, it had fallen off. Wow. And not detonated. That would have killed him for sure. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God.

That would have been terrible. And if Barry would have picked it up rather than kicking it, that would have killed him too. Oh, my God. Okay. What the hell is going on here? So they're like, okay, now we know who the target of this bomb was, but we have no suspects. We have no suspects. Or susbox. Stop it!

Cut the part where I messed it up. We don't need to leave this many mess ups in. Leave them in. Let the people know that she is nervous. I'm not nervous. My mouth is dry. You're nervous because you really hate to mispronounce stuff. I do hate to mispronounce stuff. I do hate to mispronounce stuff.

It really gets your goat. Is that the saying? Yeah. It's your goat. It gets your goat. That's the saying. Yeah. I don't know why I thought it was eats your goat. That's not it.

That's the bestiality thing that you talked about in the last episode. Oh, what? Disgusting. I did not mention that at all. Yes, you did. You talked about going down on a turtle Oh, what? Disgusting. I did not mention that at all. Yes, you did. You talked about going down on a turtle and getting a rem job from an elephant. Well, and Brandy, that's only a gopher. That's only if the white supremacists lose the race war. And that's just, you know, something we have to think about. Okay, so we just have to consider whether we want to be banging cheetahs all day

i noticed you didn't talk about um my assertion that you would be taken from behind by a penguin i had forgotten about that one i don't think you did forget i did i think you wanted to forget. Because you know what? I think it's humiliating to be taken from behind by a penguin. Now, if I'm in the next exhibit over and I'm being mauled by a cheetah, people just feel sorry for me. I mean, what can I do? It's a cheetah. But, you know, if you're being, you know, finned onto by a penguin. You think penguins have fins what do they have those flappy things they're not arms i just know he's grabbing you by the hips with those things

and people are like okay well you know she could just walk away yeah they're like they're like look we're not victim blaming here but you can walk away from a penguin, right? All right. Anyway. You brought it up. I just want to remind you of that. Okay. Great.

Okay, so at this point, detectives know that Jack was the intended target of this bomb. But that's like all the clues they have. They've got this anonymous letter that's been sent. And they're like, where the fuck do we go from here? So 11 days after the bombing, they got another lead in the case. On October 6, 2000, Jack went up to Kenick, Washington to visit his girlfriend. I'm going to call her Cindy Williams. That's what she's called in the articles and in the episode

of Web of Lies. Just know that's not her real name. Okay. It's been changed for her protection. Gotcha. Okay. So Jack and Cindy had met while they were on, each on family vacations in... Oh, cute. Yeah. Okay. At a video arcade in Seaside. Somewhere on the Oh, cute. Yeah, like at a video arcade

in Seaside. Somewhere on the coast, apparently. Barry needs to stay away from these video arcade places. Well, this is just like a fun little family arcade. This is not a gambling place. I don't think he has a skee-ball problem. Spent all their vacation money.

I bet you there's somebody with a skee-ball problem, Brandy. Maybe. Yeah. Okay. Anyway. So they had met, like, when they were both on family vacation. They'd really hit it off at the time. Jack was 17 and Cindy was 15.

And they decided to exchange phone numbers. And then they kept in contact when they went back to their respective homes. Cindy lived about 200 miles northeast of where Jack lived. Yeah, so pretty far away. But they talked on the phone every day. They chatted online all the time. Like they were, you know, in a relationship. And they saw each other whenever they could.

So on this particular weekend, Jack had gone up to Cindy's house. Okay, one source that I read somewhere, which I did not use as a source for this because I couldn't. A little sketch? It did seem a little sketch. It was kind of a blog. Anyway, he said it was for prom, which doesn't line up. So I'm thinking maybe like a homecoming dance. All right.

That makes more sense for that time of year. Give me the time of year. October. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's not prom. Not prom, no.

So I'm going to use my deductive reasoning and say he went for a homecoming dance. All right. Anyway, he goes up. He stays at Cindy's house for the weekend, but he sleeps on the couch. I'm going to use my deductive reasoning and say he went for a homecoming dance. All right. Anyway, he goes up. He stays at Cindy's house for the weekend, but he sleeps on the couch. All right. Cindy really liked Jack. Jack's parents also really liked Cindy, and Cindy's mom was a single mom.

She worked, like, three jobs. Oh, my God. Yeah. But they really liked Cindy's mom, but they did think Cindy was maybe a little too young for Jack. Yeah. I mean, 15 is too young for Jack. Yeah. I mean, 15 is – 15 and 17. Yeah. That's a big difference.

But Jack said, you know, whatever. I'm going to – I like her. We're going to talk, and I'll go up and whatever, spend this weekend with her. Okay. So while – What's happening with your pocket? I had a tissue in my hand, and I just put it in my pocket so I wouldn't have to hold it. I'm very sorry.

Anyway. You thought you were slick, didn't you? So Jack enjoys his weekend here. He has a nice weekend with Cindy. It's kind of like a break from all of the craziness that's been going on back at his house. And then on Sunday morning of that weekend, he and Cindy's family are like out, I don't know, playing in the grass next to a like there's like a basketball hoop and they're all kind of like hanging out.

Why are you acting like this is so weird? They're just like in a park. Yeah, they're like at a park, but it's at Cindy's house. It's like an area near Cindy's house. Anyway, in a patch of grass near the basketball hoop. Why would anyone be outside? Anyway, Cindy's brother found a pipe bomb. Why would anyone be outside? Anyway. Cindy's brother found a pipe bomb.

What? Yes. Laying on the ground. Brittany, shut up. No. What the hell is going on here? So he sees this pipe bomb. It's this pipe wrapped in duct tape.

It's got a fuse poking out of the end. And it's got a note attached to it. The note was, okay, it was all typed up, and it was, like, written in Spanish, but it was clear that someone had just, like, poorly translated it. Okay, okay, gotcha. And it said, if you find this, please give it back to Jack Hornstein. Excuse me. Mm-hmm. Please pick up this pipe bomb and hand it to Jack.

So they see this pipe bomb. They're able to like read the note on it. They don't touch it. They call the police. Kennewick police show up and it turns out the bomb was like a dud. It didn't have any gunpowder in it. It was intended to look very real, but it, there was no way for it to detonate. Tended to look very real, but there was no way for it to detonate.

And so the police are like, you know, what's, do you have any reason to believe that somebody would have put a bomb here? And Cindy tells him like, yeah, actually, Jack's dad just had his fucking leg blown off by a pipe bomb in their driveway. And they said, whoa, language. I don't think she actually said those exact words. So they're like, holy shit. Okay, so this is tied to an actual bombing in Portland. So they get in contact with the Portland police. They're filling him in on what they know. And Detective Ken Taylor was assigned to take over, like, at the Washington end of the investigation.

So the next day, Monday, he gets this voicemail from some man who has a fake Latino accent threatening his life, threatening the detective's life. I don't know any more specifics than that. Just that they knew. So weird. It is so weird. It's so weird. Just that they knew that it was related to this pipe bomb. Okay. Which they know is related to this actual pipe bomb that went off in Portland.

Okay. So they're still like, okay, what? Where is this coming from? Who is doing this? Yeah. Two days later, Cindy's mom is going through the mail. She happens to be on the phone with the Washington detective, Ken Taylor, at this time while she's going through the mail. And she's like, oh, my God. There's a letter in the mail from this someone claiming to be the bomber explaining what they did to Barry Hornstein. And then it included a bunch of further threats. The note said, this is to let you know that Jack Hornstein is a marked man.

I don't want your daughter to get hurt. But what happens will happen. So Cindy's mom is like, you can't talk to Jack anymore. I'm sorry. Yeah. It's not safe. And so she's like,

all right. I mean, if that's what you think is best, I'll stop talking to him. Back in Portland, Barry is like freaking out. He's stuck in the hospital. He's just had this surgery and he's worried about Jack.

He's like, somebody is trying to kill my 17 year old son. They had asked the police, you know, what can we do to feel safer? And they're like, you know, we're patrolling your neighborhood. We're doing the best we can, but like, that's kind of all we could do. Yeah. Okay. So then Cindy's friends start getting emails badmouthing Jack. They're coming in from all over. And so they take these to the police. Cindy takes these to the police. Tell me more about Cindy's brother. I don't know anything about Cindy's brother. Okay. Never mind.

Which tells you that Cindy's brother is not the culprit in this game. Okay. So she goes to the police and she's like, my friends are getting these emails. They're coming. We don't, I don't know who they're coming from. They're coming from anonymous email addresses. So they start trying to track those emails, see where they are coming from. One email that came to one of Cindy's classmates said that it was from the bomber. They claimed to be the bomber. They were able to trace that email to an internet service

provider in Emory, Washington. Then there was another email that was sent to one of Jack's classmates that said that Jack had raped this 13-year-old girl. They were able to track that email to an AOL account. That AOL account was registered to Florida, but the credit card that paid for that AOL account was registered to someone in Port Orchard, Washington, which isn't that far from where Cindy lived. It was that AOL account being registered to a credit card linked to Port Orchard, Washington, that finally resulted in them having an actual suspect in that case. That credit card belonged to a man named Timothy Michael Goff. They still couldn't figure out how the fuck this guy was attached to this case, how he was connected to this case. Timothy Goff did not seem like he would be a suspect in this case.

First of all, he was a 41-year-old man. Right. How's he? What? Yeah. He was a native of Oregon, but he had been married for several years, had like a 20-year-old daughter. But after separating, he'd moved to Port Orchard. He was a pipe fitter, which is a pretty lucrative trade.

He, you know, worked. Oh, but lots of access to pipes. Mm hmm. Lots of access to pipes. Okay, here we go. Thought you could pull that over on me, did you? I didn't. So the detectives are like, this is our best lead at this point. So they're like, got in a car, drove up to Port Orchard, and they paid Tim Goff a visit. They asked him if he knew Cindy Williams at all. And he was like, you know, I have actually emailed her a couple times. We met in a chat room.

But like, that's it. That's it. What the fuck are you like, that's it. That's. Ew. What the fuck are you doing? That's all. That's. I mean, I don't even know her well. We've just emailed a couple times.

I'm just a totally normal 40-year-old man. Totally normal 41-year-old dude emailing a 15-year-old girl. Yep. So the detectives were like, red alert. Like, they like. Okay. So he tells them that he doesn't know anything about cindy other than these couple of emails and so they like leave his house but like from his front yard they like call and like try and secure a search warrant for his home yeah and the information

they have is deemed good enough that a port orchard judge issued a search warrant on site for them to search Timothy Goff's apartment. And inside his apartment, they found some stuff. They found some wires and a pipe wrench. He was a pipe fitter, though, so it seems to make sense that he would have a pipe wrench. And they found a very sophisticated computer setup. They also, his wallet was just like sitting out on the counter, and so one of the detectives just kind of like leafed through it a little bit and found a piece of paper that had the Hornstein's address.

Yeah. Written on it. Yeah. Wanted to, oh, God. I mean, wanted to basically attack a 15-year-old girl. She found someone close to her own age, and he got mad and decided to try to kill this 17-year-old? You're pretty close, yeah. Oh, my God. year old you're pretty close yeah oh my god they also found a gun in his possession and they found

a bunch of pornography and two videotapes hidden under his bed great hiding spot yeah they asked timothy goff what was on the videotapes? Just a Toy Story 1 and 2? Well, yeah. So he kind of like, you know, hymns and haws. And then they're like, is there anyone we would know on those videotapes? Oh, shh. Ugh. And he said, not unless you know one of my old girlfriends.

So Detective Law took it upon himself to play that video right there in Timothy Goff's apartment. And when he did, he saw Timothy Goff performing sex acts on a 14-year-old Cindy Williams. Oh. That's horrible. Yes. Yeah, horrible. So investigators called Cindy and her mother into the police station. They told Cindy what they had found. And Cindy was very upset. She burst out crying immediately. She tried to leave the room.

And her mother's like, you know, just tell us what you know. You're not in trouble here. Just tell us what you know. And so Cindy told the police that she'd met Timothy Goff in a chat room in 1999. She told him that she was 16. She was really 14. And he told her that he was 31. And he was actually 41. According to Cindy, they had had some kind of sexual relationship. And then she said that she had and these are her words. Yeah, yeah. She said that she had broken up with Tim Goff in April of 2000. She said, quote, Tim had stronger feelings for me than I had for him. Gosh, that's really interesting.

I know. Interesting to me because you think about that grooming process. And it's so disgusting. I mean, it's the seduction of a child. Absolutely. And yet, I mean, she was really strong enough. She was, yeah. After really not that long a period of time

in the grand scheme of things, say, no, that's enough. Yeah. Wow. Absolutely. So back in Portland, police are investigating this pipe bombing case and they're trying to attach it to Tim Goff now. They have his hard drive that they had seized in his apartment search and they found all kind of evidence on it indicating that he was the one behind this campaign of threats against Jack. Yes. Including the bombing.

Absolutely. There were the emails they could link back to him. I mean, just everything at this point was found on his computer or his hard drive, along with a bunch of disgusting pornography. Of course. They also found a note that Timothy Goff had sent to Cindy's parents or had planned to send. It's kind of unclear. But it said, you would think that you could find some nice girl your own age instead of messing around with little girls that don't know better and listen to your lies. This is what he's saying about a 17-year-old 15 year old girl when he's a 41 year old man.

OK, dude. Yeah. All right. Apparently this note was intended to make Cindy's parents force her to break. Well, Cindy's mother. I'm sorry. I keep saying parents. She's a single mother.

Cindy's mother to force Cindy to break up with Jack because he was too old for her. This is so gross. Yes. With all of this evidence, the Washington police were able to arrest Timothy Goff and charge him for child rape. He actually pled guilty. Oh, my gosh. This article. Okay, so this case happened in 2000.

The reporting from it is, like, from 2003. Uh-oh. And the articles are like, because at this time, they believed that a 14-year-old could not consent to a sexual relationship. Well, no fucking shit. Yeah. Oh, God. We've come a long way, baby. Right.

That's disgusting. Yeah. So he. Yeah, how wild. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God, we've come a long way, baby. Right. That's disgusting. Yes. Yeah. So he. Yeah, how wild. Yeah. Yeah. We actually think a 14-year-old might have been the victim here. Yeah.

Weird. Yeah. So he pled guilty to two counts of child rape and was sentenced to. No, what? 26 months. Oh, go to hell. Go to hell. Are you fucking kidding me?

Well, I mean, I guess I don't know what you would get nowadays, but it says a lot that at the time the papers were like, well, believe it or not, this is a crime. Yeah. That's. Yeah. So he's sentenced to 26 months in jail for child rape. Well, Brandy, the good news is I'm sure this was the first time this had ever happened. Yeah, I doubt it. So then back in Portland, they're working to put together charges against Timothy Goff for this attempted murder.

Yeah, absolutely. They put together a 16 count indictment against him on March 12th, 2001. And it focused like the main charge was attempted murder of Barry Hornstein. So as they're investigating this case, they're putting together a clearer picture of what had transpired here. Cindy, like many kids at this time, spent much of 1999 surfing the web, spending time in chat rooms. And in October of 1999, she met Timothy Goff in an AOL chat room. Tim claimed to be single and 30. When he was interrogated about this,

he claimed that Cindy initially told him that she was 18, so he continued communicating with her. And then later, she admitted that she was only 16, when in reality, she was actually only 14. Did you knew? Also, let's pretend that's true. Yeah.

She says 18. And you're pretending you're 31. Even if you are 31, Also, let's pretend that's true. Yeah. She says 18. Mm-hmm. And you're pretending you're 31? Mm-hmm. Even if you are 31? That's fucking disgusting. Yes. Correct. Can you imagine being 31 and going after a teenager?

Right. Yeah. You're nodding because you can imagine it. I cannot. And you enjoy it. I think this whole thing is so disgusting. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

More disgusting than you and that penguin. Stop it. So they chatted for some time. They became a couple at some point. And then Timothy arranged to pick up Cindy for their first date. And he did. He came and picked her up from her house and drove her to the best Western in town. Oh, God.

Yeah. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. This is sickening on so many levels, one of them being her mom has it hard enough. She's a single mom. She's working three jobs. Yes. So, of course, it's no coincidence that this guy found this kid.

Of course. No, it's not a coincidence at all. Yeah. It's funny because every time we cover one of these, I'm always so mad. Yeah. But, I mean, I guess I shouldn't be at a certain point. You shouldn't be surprised that they always go after the most vulnerable. Absolutely.

Yeah. God damn it. That's intentional. It's 100 percent. Of course, you're not going to you're not going to go after the kid who is being supervised at all times or who feels really well accepted at school necessarily. Continue on. necessarily continue on they find out that they had this like basically five month relationship which just it's not it that's not what it was i know that's that's a thing it's not wrong to call it that but because it's not a relationship it's not a relationship but they had communicated. They'd been. Right. Whatever. Involved with each other for five months or so before Cindy broke up with him.

Mm-hmm. And then he was jealous when Cindy started dating Jack. He wanted his girlfriend back. Mm. Jack. He wanted his girlfriend back. And Cindy told police that she had remained somewhat in contact with Tim after she'd broken up with him, just like to keep things

on good terms as much as possible. Yeah. She had still chatted with him occasionally online, sent him a few emails, and by doing that, she had inadvertently fed him information that made this easier for him to do. Told him when Jack would be at her house, those kinds of things. Actually, Cindy had kind of figured out that possibly Tim was the one doing this after one of those threatening emails had

come in to another friend and it contained information that she was sure she had only told. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interestingly, Kevin Holt, who was the defense lawyer who defended Timothy Goff during his child rape charges, had this really fun thing to say about Tim and maybe why why he if he did have a really fun thing you say in sex with Cindy this would be the reason behind it um the reason is he's a pedophile absolutely but not according to like we know that's the reason right but according to his's this bitch say? According to his defense attorney, this is a direct quote. He was in a midlife crisis. He was just out of a long-term relationship with his wife and he gets hit on by this attractive younger woman who will sexually do anything and fulfill any fantasy.

Oh, fuck off. Hit on by this attractive younger woman. And if he believed her claim to be 18, it's kind of every guy's dream. Oh, gross. I think the sex was so good it clouded his judgment. If he did it. And I'm not saying he did. Okay, well, we need to look into that fella.

No kidding. That is disgusting yeah the sex was so good she's a child she's a child midlife crisis it was just a midlife crisis you know you know how you get go through a midlife crisis and you rape children oh boy some people get a convertible yeah uh some people get all new tupperware for their kitchen that's i did that that pays off other times and who can who can blame them they rape kids. Mm hmm. What the fuck? Yeah. Mm hmm.

So the child rape case had been an easy case for the Kennewick, Washington Police Department. Well, yeah. There was plenty of proof of that. There was a videotape of it. But the attempted murder case was not coming together as easily for the Portland police because that case hinged on evidence that the police had found in Goff's apartment, especially his computer hard drive. included bomb-making information with schematics, copies of several threatening letters, that note that was written in Spanish that was attached to that dud pipe bomb. All of this was found in his hard drive. Though, I mean, with all of that evidence, this seems like a slam-dunk case. But could they not use it because they'd found it in when they were searching for something else?

Correct. They had not specifically listed his computer's hard drive excluded from trial, saying they hadn't legally acquired that information that had been gained through an illegal search and seizure. Shit. And without all of that information. Yeah. This case is nothing. So. Brandy, you're you're killing me here. Mm hmm. So they file that motion in August of 2003, the beginning of August. And the prosecution's like, fuck, this has some weight to it. Well, yeah, it does. Yeah. They were very worried that all of that evidence was going to be thrown out. And so in late August 2003, they offered Timothy Goff a plea deal. In exchange for a guilty plea on two counts of attempted murder, they would drop the additional 14 charges against him. And so he took the deal.

And he was sentenced to 12 years in prison. Oh, wow. Had he been convicted of all of the charges, he would have been facing an additional 30 years in prison. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So he pled it down for 12 years because the prosecution was worried that this motion would get granted and they would not have a case.

I get that. Yeah, I do, too. I find it deeply unsatisfying, but I get it. Yeah, I mean, this is a guy who needs to be put away. Also, I still maintain that we should make up a law. We make up all the laws. I'm just saying, like, you translated it into Spanish. You threatened a police officer with a Latino accent.

Yes. That should be an additional charge when you're trying to frame a person of color for a crime. Yeah. Yeah. Following Timothy Goff's guilty plea and sentencing, Barry Hornstein spoke with the Willamette Weekly and he said that he understood why this had to happen. said that he understood why this had to happen. He said that the prosecution told him that there was a very strong possibility that the hard drive files would not be admitted in court. He said he would have preferred a longer sentence, but Barry said, I feel good about the deal. It's good to have this behind us. The system does work.

Disagree because he got 26 months for child rape but but i can completely understand wanting to be done with yes absolutely barry remained very upbeat about his i mean survival of this he ended up getting a prosthetic foot and ankle and he said it didn't really bother him he learned how to walk with it he said the only the only thing that became more difficult was like walking on the beach, which is something he used to love to do and just can't really do anymore. But he said it's a good alternative to dying. OK. You know, I mean, with him being a parent and knowing that he was not the intended target, I bet there is something to be said for he's probably glad that it happened to him and not his son and also i'm sorry for talking shit about him

losing his life savings due to video poker i now realize that that was a rude thing to say but also a true thing to say barry went on to say that he feels lucky. He said, I look at what could have happened compared to what did happen. I'd rather be alive and lose a leg than be dead. I didn't lose my ability to think and do a lot of things. He also said that this ultimately had a positive impact on his life. He and Kathy rekindled their marriage after this. Yeah.

They said, the bomb made our family stronger, for want of a better word. Wow. Yeah. Well, that is interesting. Yes. Barry Hornstein passed away in 2022 at the age of 81. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Okay. Math is not my strong suit. I was like, he's Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. I, yeah. Math is not my strong suit. I was like, he's only in his fifties. Okay. He and Kathy were still married at the time of his death and had been for 42 years. Good for them. He was also the proud grandpa to three grandchildren.

Oh my gosh. Yeah. And that is the story of a bombing. Well, I hope Cindy is doing well. Yeah. So Jack and Cindy actually stayed together for like a year. Oh, really? Yeah.

And then they just like grew apart. Yeah. I mean, they're teenagers. Yeah. Holy shit. Yeah. That wild? Yeah.

That was very rude of you to tell that story. I am sorry. I speak for all the listeners when I say, no, thank you. No, thank you. You know what it's time for right now? An ad. And we're back. Oh, are we having a showdown?

There's like an Old West showdown? Are you a gunslinger? You'll only find out when it's too late. You'll see me draw my pistol and you'll be like, oh, damn, I guess she was. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. Oh, damn, she was a gunslinger the whole time. I thought she was just singing a little ditty. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Brandy, are you excited to hear about royalty? I thought it was an heiress. Yeah, heiress, Yeah. Is that royalty? Heiress, royalty. Okay, great. The whole kitten caboodle. Oh, sure. What do you got in your caboodle?

I need to get a caboodle. Yeah. Where do you store your shit now? You know, your makeups and whatnot. I got to tell you. Your who's it's and what's it's galore. I've got a nice... Thingamabobs? I've got 20. I've got a nice big bathroom. I hate to gotta tell you. Your who's it's and what's it's galore. I've got 20.

I've got a nice big bathroom. I hate to brag to you. I've got a nice big bathroom. It's got my makeup in it. My husband has two drawers and I have like six. Sometimes

my stuff overflows and I put my shit in his he does not seem to notice or care la la la la that was wonderful thank you thank you um but yeah i'm thinking more for travel oh sure yeah you know what i've decided brandy what get ready for this. Okay. It's a revolution. Okay. Here's what I'm going to do. I decided this after our last minute trip to Michigan where I felt totally unprepared. And you know that thing where you're like on a trip and then you realize you packed all the wrong clothes and you're just screwed diddly-ooed. Yeah. What's your solution for this? My solution, I have decided, is I am going to get an amazing toiletry bag. I have my eyes on several right now. I cannot pull the

trigger because it's too big a decision. Yeah. All right. Because the last time I bought a set of toiletry bags, I was 19 years old. I didn't even like the set I got at the time. I am 37. I am still carrying those same ones from TJ Maxx from when I was 19. Anyway, I have decided I am going to buy the most perfect one on the market today. I am going to fill it completely so that when I go on a trip, bing, bang, boom, just grab it. I did that for our honeymoon. And then when we came back from our honeymoon,

it just went into the closet. And so it's just there whenever we need to take a trip now. You know what? I've got something to say to you. How fucking dare you come up with that and then not share it? I didn't know it was a revolutionary idea.

It is a revolutionary idea. I was like, I have so much extra mascara. I've got all these extras floating around. I even went a step further and bought our favorites of stuff so that we have our actual deodorant, our actual toothpaste that we use. It's all in there. I just got to grab it whenever we're feeling frisky. Not really, just whenever we're going to go on a trip. Yeah.

If I was doing it any time I was feeling frisky, I'd just be grabbing that bag three, four times a day. You're a frisky critter. We all know that. That's why you acted like you didn't want the penguins. Okay, that's too much. You didn't move too quickly. Is it toasty in here? I think it's freezing.

My feet are freezing. Are you toasty? You're toasty, aren't you? Well, I don't want to tell you now because you're going to think it's gross. What? I just removed my flip-flops because my feet were getting a little sweaty. Oh, I don't think that's gross. I had my...

You had coconut flake feet last week, so... That's okay. That's rude. I did an exfoliating foot mask. And yeah, shit falls off your foot when you do that. And yeah, maybe it does look like coconut flakes are going off your feet every time you take off your socks. That's not my fault. Hey, are you going to tell us a case?

Well, I think I'm going to run into the bedroom and grab the blanket. Oh, you're that cold? Yeah. Okay, go get your blanket. Because I'm wearing my little skirt. Oh, that's right. Yeah, you got exposed legs. Your legs are just free breathing.

Free breathing. Oh, God. Shook the whole table. You know what, though? On the last episode, you kicked the whole table and you couldn't hear a bit of it on the mics. These boom arms are really something. I mean, they really are. The people who said they didn't like the sound of our mics bumping and all that, thank you for your feedback.

I was going to encourage people to give us other feedback. Brandy does not like feedback of any kind. That's not true. Well, yes, it kind of is. I'm okay with feedback if it's something we can actually do something about.

If the feedback is, Kristen, we hate your personality, sorry, it's the only one I've got. And Brandy, we don't like your laugh. Like, this is the laugh. So it's not fake. I don't put it on for the show. That's my regular everyday laugh. It's the weirdest thing.

Stop it. She has this really, here's how she laughs normally. Tee hee. And like, then all of a sudden we start podcasting and it's this big booming thing. Very odd. Very odd. Anyway, I still have decided that I'm not going to forgive you for not sharing this. Oh, the toiletry bag thing?

Yeah. Sorry. I apologize. You know what I've even been thinking? What? I've been thinking, although, okay, tell me if I'm being ridiculous. I also thought, what if I get like a bunch of underwear and a bunch of socks and it's just always in my suitcase? It sounds like a wonderful idea.

Does it really, though? But it doesn't take that long to pack your underwear and socks. It would be nice not to have to do it, though. I don't know. All right. I didn't know you were living such a life of luxury that you can just be getting extra undies and socks. See, I'm not. I think I would feel like that's too much.

I'm not living that life. You're good to remind me. Yeah, you don't go from buying a travel set at TJ Maxx when you're 19 and keeping it until you're 37 to all of a sudden having the best in the biz of travel technology. Okay. Here's the situation I have going on, though. Okay. What?

I'm wondering if it's too much information to reveal. I have not always in my life been like the person who's on top of their laundry. I might let it go two weeks before doing it. Okay. So I have like a good solid two weeks of underwear. Right. Maybe a little more. I could probably get through three weeks and not have to do underwear laundry.

I don't mean to brag to you. I think I could do like a month and a half. I mean, I could go pretty. Yeah, I could do. I think I could do three weeks easy. Yeah. However, David is very much every week I do the laundry. And so I could survive on a week of underwear.

I should just pack up my extra week of undies and just throw that in a bag. But see, for me, it's got to be my favorite undies. Oh, well, that's easy because all of my undies are exactly the same. You buy all the same pair of undies? I should have known. Yeah, I have like at least 20 pairs of the exact same undies. Same cut, same color, same everything. You're basically Superman.

Yeah. All right. It's not a bad way to live. You always like the undies you picked out. That's right. But, you know, they say variety is the spice of life. I don't need variety in my underwear. Okay.

I'm fine with it. All right. I feel plenty spicy. Yeah, I don't need variety in my underwear. Okay. I'm fine with it. All right. I feel plenty spicy. Yeah, you bring your own spice to your underwear. That's right. It's disgusting. Anyway, should I tell you a story? Yeah, I think probably.

Okay. Woo, here we go. So I watched a program called The Con. Mm. And the episode was called The program called The Con. Mm. And the episode was called The Heiress Con. Ooh. Okay. So the show is, it's actually like there's, this wasn't like a documentary called The

Con. This is a show called The Con. You watch it. It's a TV program. Okay. Where, where can people find this show? Oh my God. I mean, it's just, I just watched it on Hulu.

Okay. That's what I'm asking. Like you saw this on Hulu. It's on ID. It's on whatever. I mean, it's just I just watched it on Hulu. Okay, that's what I'm asking. Like, you saw this on Hulu. It's on ID. It's on whatever. I believe it's an ABC program. Whoopi Goldberg narrates it. Really?

It's a little surprising, yes. That is surprising. That's just the truth. I mean, you ask follow-up questions. I've never heard of this show. Yeah, I don't know that it's been renewed. Oh, okay. Might be an oldie but goodie.

All right. Anyhow. Did you like it? I mean. Like I told you, I thought my show was a little too heavy on the reenactments. I liked it okay. All right. But I don't have to sit and watch all the episodes.

But I mean, my thing for when we're doing it for the show. Yeah. It's a whole different mindset. It is. It is. You know, you couldn't possibly understand. I do understand because I also do. I also do cases on this podcast, Kristen.

What? Also, a great article for The Hollywood Reporter by Katie Kilkenny. And, okay, there's a blog. There's a blog involved. JonathanWalton.com. Boy, it helped me a lot. Very good. He also did a podcast about this story.

Oh, shit. It's called Queen of the Con. Now, I did not listen to the entire podcast because there are multiple episodes on this. But, you know, I am going to go back and listen to this. Excellent. Did I say the name of the podcast queen of the con yeah but listen to let's go to court first before you listen to any other podcast so i'm picking up some context clues this is going to be about a con wow she's good they say she's the best in the biz they say nothing gets past her that's right besides a penguin's stop it

and even then that doesn't really get past her okay she's like too much i'm over here you stop don't come over here oh no i'm holding this bucket of fish Brandy what you do is gross okay anyway it was May of 2013 in Los Angeles California and Jonathan Walton had a big problem his apartment building the Bunker Hill Towers apartments what wait is this the guy who did the podcast he's the victim in this case well I mean I guess I'm just assuming he's the victim. Okay. Okay.

Excellent. Are you okay? It's like a first person account. Now it makes me want to listen to that podcast even more. But only after I finished all episodes of the Let's Go to Court podcast, of course. That's right. Kristen's my favorite. Kristen's my favorite.

So his apartment building was in some kind of legal spat with a neighboring building. And as a result, his whole apartment building was going to lose access to the pool. This could not happen, Brandy. So Jonathan, who is a TV producer and who had just finished working on the fourth season of Shark Tank was like, I need to do something. Who's his favorite shark? Do you know? Oh, I don't know. Damn it.

Shit. Hmm. Do you think it's Mark Cuban? No, I do not. All right. Who's your favorite shark? I don't really know. I don't know that I have a favorite shark.

Also, um. cuban did that whole like low-cost pharmacy thing though so that's kind of cool he's also a tv producer for american ninja warrior oh shit which is really cool right i love american ninja warrior okay anyway so he and his husband pablo decided to do a little community organizing. Jonathan and Pablo invited everyone in their building to come to their place one Saturday evening to discuss how they could get access to the pool. Like 40 people showed up. It turned out to be a great meeting. At the meeting, they met this woman named Mare Smith.

Mare had a jet black pixie cut, and she dressed in head to toe pastels. Why is your face like that? Is that a nickname? Mare? Is her name like Mary? Mary Ann? She is saying that her name is Mare. Okay. So why don't you sit back and take it? Okay. Like it's coming from a penguin. Stop it! Mare was smart, helpful, and hilarious. She immediately took charge and was like, hey, don't worry, everybody. My boyfriend's a real estate attorney. We've actually sued this building a couple times and won. We can definitely get the pool back.

Jonathan loved Mare almost instantly. I mean, she was so charismatic. She also had this kind of unusual accent. He couldn't quite place it. It was American. Oh, shut up. My God. No, it was American, but there was something extra in there.

What could it be? Oh, she's Irish, right? She's an Irish air. What could it be? Oh, she's Irish, right? She's an Irish air. What could it be? What song is that? What could it be now? Am I making up a song?

Who can it be now? Who can it be? Oh, yeah. Who can it be now? Luck of the Irish. The next day, Mare called Jonathan up, and she was so sweet. She was like, look, I really appreciate you getting all of us together. That was obviously a lot of work.

Let me take you and Pablo out to dinner. That's very nice. Yeah. And he's like, of course, that'd be great. So they all went out to dinner and, you know, they went to this really swanky place. And the bill came and it was like almost $600. And Mayor insisted on paying. She was like, this600. And Mare insisted on paying. She was like, this is my treat. I've got this.

It was totally unnecessary and super generous and the start of a great friendship. Over time, Mare and Jonathan became very close. They hung out like almost every night together. And anytime they went out, Mare always insisted on paying. She literally said, I have a lot of money. Just let me take care of it. Hmm. Yeah.

Is that what people with a lot of money say? I have a lot of money. You know, here's the thing. I can see that being a little charming. If like comes from family money you're right and the bill comes and she's like oh stop it I've got money like you know yeah no you're right all right as they got to know one another better Mare shared details about her life she was from Ireland originally so that that explains the accent. And she had family money. At one point, Jonathan was over at Mare's apartment and he saw a framed document on her wall.

She told him it was Ireland's constitution. She pointed to a signature at the bottom and she was like, you see that? That's my great uncle's signature. Jonathan was impressed. That's like saying, yeah, your great uncle's John Hancock. Yeah. It's very exciting. Mm-hmm.

I mean, she obviously came from a pretty influential Irish family. She had all these wild stories. She said her grandmother had been in the IRA, and she taught Mare how to make Molotov cocktails and, like, hide on a bridge and throw the Molotov cocktails down on British soldiers. Oh, my gosh. Jonathan was so entertained by these stories.

Mare was the most interesting person he'd ever met. Yeah. She was so fun to talk to. She was so brash. And ironically, she came across as a very no bullshit kind of person, a real tell it like it is type of gal. In many ways, she was your typical rich lady. She loved Jimmy Choo's. She had a closet full of them. Like 250 pairs of them. Holy shit. Yeah.

That's a significant chunk of change in shoes. Yeah, even if they're fake. That's still a lot of money, right? Wait, they're fake Jimmy Choo's? Maybe they are, but even if they're 250 pairs, I'd pay less BOGO deals. That's still, yes. And, you know, she wasn't afraid to make some adjustments to her appearance. She got a little lipo, as one does. She got a breast augmentation. She got a nose job. You know, this is L.A.

Yeah. Jonathan didn't think anything of it. No. But Mare's life was not perfect. She definitely had her struggles. She had two daughters, Chelsea and Courtney, and Chelsea lived elsewhere. And sadly, Courtney had died from cystic fibrosis. Mare kept Courtney's ashes in an urn in her apartment. The anniversary of Courtney's death was always really hard on Mare. She would weep and Jonathan would console her. Years passed. Jonathan and Mare became best friends.

He came to think of Mare as a sister. They ended each phone call with, I love you. One night, he opened up to her about kind of his own personal pain. He told her that when he came out of the closet, some of his family members had disowned him. It had been incredibly hard on him. Absolutely, yeah. But Mare understood what he'd gone through. She fought back tears and said, my family disowned me too. She told Jonathan that when her great uncle died, he left behind an estate of roughly 25 million euros. That estate was supposed to be divided up amongst the heirs.

Mare was supposed to get about 5 million euros, but her cousins were trying to get her disinherited. It was a terrible legal battle, Brandy. Was it? Yeah. They were trying to say that because she no longer lived in Ireland, she was no longer entitled to her share of the inheritance. And that was so hurtful. She'd been in America for so long. I mean, ever since she went to college and joined the same sorority as her very good friend Ashley Judd. Was she very good friends with Ashley Judd? She went to the University of Kentucky? I mean, yes, she went wherever the hell Ashley Judd went

and whatever the hell sorority Ashley Judd was in, she was in that one also. I guess I don't technically know that Ashley Judd went to the University of Kentucky, but she goes to their basketball games all the time. So I would assume. I assume she went to Vanderbilt.

Why'd you assume that? Nice Southern school. I don't know. She goes, she's like famously goes to the University of Kentucky basketball games a lot. So.

Okay. All right. That's where that information Well, there you go. There you go. Okay. Also, did you know she was very good friends

with Mare here? I did not. This revelation about Mare's falling out with her family meant a lot to Jonathan. Suddenly, they weren't just friends. They were two people who'd been kicked out of their families. Yeah. I mean, it bonded them. Absolutely.

Mm-hmm. He was incensed by the injustice of it all. How dare her cousins try to disinherit her? That wasn't right. To make matters worse, Mare's cousins would text her nasty things. They'd email her nasty things. They were so verbally abusive. Mare would show Jonathan the text and ask him, you know, God, how do you think I should

respond to this? And, you know, he tried to help her navigate the situation. One of her cousins, this guy named Fenton, was just such a super douche. Really mean. Sometimes he'd write in Gaelic, you know. Oh, yeah. Those Irish folks. Yeah. But, you you know I'm bringing up the negative but for the most part the friendship was really fun Mare was a hoot everyone loved her this beautiful woman named Fran Lozano became friends with Mare and you know she was definitely struck by Mare's need to communicate how well connected she was but that OK. And I imagine not super uncommon in L.A. Absolutely not. I think everyone is name dropping constantly.

Yeah. I don't think I don't think it would stand out as like, oh, boy. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, Mare was actually pretty well connected. She got them front row seats to a Lakers game. Yeah. Fran was like two feet from Kobe Bryant. She couldn't fucking believe it.

They call it courtside. Not front row. Listen, I don't think Fran is very in the know either because she told me via this episode of The Con that it was front row. I would have never thought to say courtside. Me, via this episode of The Con, that it was front row. I would have never thought to say court side. What do you call it when you're in the front row at, like, a football game? Front row. All right.

Okay, so this is just basketball being special, huh? Yeah, you're literally, like, one step off of the court. All right. Well, when you go to the theater, you're, you know, like just skipping a jump off the stage. So, all right. Basketball players wind up in people's laps very frequently when they're sitting courtside. It's very exciting. What do you call the front row at a strip club then?

Stage side? I don't know. People always wind up in each other's laps there. I'm sorry, that was a really stupid joke and it took a while to get there. Anyway, Fran loved Mare. And Mare had always been so generous to her. I mean, it was the same deal. They'd go out

for nice meals and Mare would always been so generous to her. I mean, it was the same deal. Like, they'd go out for nice meals, and Mare would always insist on paying. So one Mother's Day, when Mare started a GoFundMe to raise money for cystic fibrosis research, Fran didn't hesitate. She donated immediately, and she encouraged her friends to donate, too. The GoFundMe page featured a picture of Mare's deceased daughter, Courtney. Brandy, what's wrong? Oh Courtney. Brandy, what's wrong? Oh, no. Oh, what's wrong? You don't like charity?

I like charity. Cystic fibrosis sounds like a very worthy cause, absolutely. My concern here is that Mare is using this deceased daughter. I don't know if she's real or not, but I assume we'll find that out, to scam her friends. It does make me wonder kind of what people knew about GoFundMe at this time, because I do feel like nowadays people would be more like, okay, well, wait a minute, why aren't we just donating directly?

Yes, exactly. But anyway. Yeah, this page featured a photo of Courtney. It looked like the photo was taken when Courtney was maybe in high school, maybe going to a dance. She looks beautiful. Her hair is up. She's in a nice dress. She's standing in what appears to me to be like a middle class neighborhood.

The fundraiser raised more than $16,000. That's wonderful. Yeah. If Mare actually donated it to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. So that pretty much sums up Mare's life. She was fun and bright. Any word on that $16,000? Did it get donated to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation?

That is a gross question. Who would do such a thing, I ask you? Well, somebody pretending to be an heiress, I'm guessing. Pretending? I don't like your tone. Okay. Okay, Mare was fun and bright and definitely Irish. Suggesting. Pretending. I don't like your tone. Okay. Mare was fun and bright and definitely Irish.

She was devastated by the loss of her daughter, and she was rich. She didn't have to work, but she did work anyway. Okay. She didn't want to be bored. You see, that's why she went to work every day. She didn't want to, what was she going to do, shop all day? Luring. This is another thing. This is such bullshit.

I want to work. I want to work, yeah. Give me a fucking break. So, yes, she got a job at a luxury travel agency, PacificIslands.com. She got the job because her family did so much business with them. And for what it's worth, her co-workers at the travel agency really liked her. Mare was a great salesperson. Plus, she was like best friends with Jennifer Aniston.

She was? Yeah. Yeah. So Brandy, like she would introduce you to Jennifer Aniston if you wanted to meet Jennifer Aniston. But maybe you'd go to a certain place at a certain time and Jennifer Aniston would cancel at the last minute. Typical Jennifer. And then Jennifer Aniston would get your cell phone number and start texting you about how you're not being a very good friend to Mare. Yeah, that all sounds very real.

Yeah, I don't think she pulled that stuff on Jonathan. It seems like she pulled that on a TV producer. I can't remember who, you know, some people only spoke on the condition of anonymity because in retrospect, this is embarrassing. Absolutely. Back to Jonathan. One day, Mare told Jonathan that one of her barristers had reached out to her about her great uncle's will. And Jonathan had to Google the word barrister, but I didn't because I have a world-famous podcast about court stuff. He thought it were those books about bears.

That was stupid. Mare's barrister warned her that he discovered an unusual clause in her great uncle's will. Barrister bears in the spooky old tree. Oh, my God. Do you remember? It's the bears, but they just have those powdered wigs on. Everyone, she's doing the silent laugh. She couldn't laugh this hard at my great bit about her being fucked by a penguin and not wanting to admit that she kind of liked it.

Bears in wigs are hilarious. i've got news for you wig maintenance is not a joke okay those wigs will look like shit in no time honey that if any of the heirs was convicted of a felony, they would be disinherited. Oh, really? Yeah. What do you think of that? Is that a real thing? What do you mean? It can be a clause in a will. You can put whatever fucking clause you want on there.

Yeah. All right. Those are my clause. Okay. And that is my revenge for you bringing up Berenstain Bears. Have we learned anything? Absolutely not. So Mare showed Jonathan this email and Jonathan is like, holy shit.

Don't you see what's going on here? Your cousins do a ton of business with the travel agency that you work for. They're probably going to try to set you up for some kind of felony charge. Oh, shit. Yes. Except none of it's real. Mayor was like, that is ridiculous. No one's trying to set me up.

Plus, they're all the way in Ireland. I'm all the way in L.A. I'm totally safe. But then, like a month or two later, Jonathan got a call at work. Mark Cuban was eating a hot dog in the next room. No, he wasn't. Oh, wait, because he does Shark Tank. I forgot how Mark Cuban played in here.

Also, we don't know that he was eating a hot dog in the next room. I bet Mark Cuban likes a hot dog every now and again. Yeah, I bet so, too. He seems like the type. Yeah. All right. It was a collect call from the local jail. Oh, shit.

It was Mare. Jonathan, of course, accepted the call, and Mare was on the other line freaking out. She was like, I've been arrested. My family set me up. What was she arrested for? Hang on a second, Brandy. Writing bad checks. Jonathan was incensed.

He was like, I knew it. I told you, I knew they'd try to set you up. Mare told Jonathan the whole story. Somehow her family had framed her for stealing two hundred thousand dollars from her employer fucking embezzlement yeah somehow they'd done it brandy no how'd they do it mayor just did it no how'd they frame her she's the queen of the con now it's actually Fenton. That's the made up cousin who was.

Oh, right. OK. What's the point in being this witty? My co-host can't appreciate it. Who Fenton was, I'm sorry. Yeah, so they'd framed her. And if she got convicted, it'd be a felony and she'd be disinherited and all of her money would be divided amongst them. Jonathan was like, fuck these fuckers.

And he called up a bunch of bail bondsmen and he found one who could get her out of jail for $4,200. And so that's what he did. He paid the bail bondsman. He got Mare out of jail. And the,200. And so that's what he did. He paid the bail bondsman. He got Mare out of jail. And the very next day, she paid him back in full. Oh, all right. I know. But what a mess, right?

Yeah. Now, Brandi, this will shock you because you have not put this together yet. But the truth was that Mare had stolen that $200,000 from her employer. This is brand new information. I know. She got caught because she'd spent a few days out of the office. And while she was out, one of her clients called the office and was just like, hey, you know, I just want to confirm that you got my last payment. And whoever answered the phone was like, oh, yeah, okay, sure. Just give me the details. I'll make sure we got that. And the woman was like, oh, yeah, okay, sure. Just give me the details.

I'll make sure we got that. And the woman was like, okay, well, I sent it via PayPal. And the person who was on the other line quietly shat themselves because the travel agency did not have a PayPal account. So they began looking into it. And sure enough, Mare had been taking payments from clients and putting them in her personal PayPal account. Oh, my gosh. I'm always fascinated. $200,000. Holy shit.

So when... No wonder she could foot the bill for all the restaurants. When Mayor came back to the office, one of the higher-ups took her into his office, and he had some printouts from the PayPal transactions. And he was like, hey, can you help me out with this? We're having trouble tracing some of these payments. Can you tell me what's going on here? And Mare just turned super white and walked out of his office, back to her desk, grabbed all her things and never came back.

Holy shit. But Mare needed a job oh excuse me she wanted a job she didn't need one to work yeah yeah as we all do yes uh she had plenty of money okay uh and she found work as a psychic oh Okay. What's wrong? Do you have a premonition that this is a bad idea? Well, was this a skill that she possessed the entire time? I'm so glad you asked. Yes. So Jonathan was kind of surprised by this, and he was like, oh, you're a psychic now, but are you psychic? Like, what's the deal?

And Mare said that, yes, yes, she was. She had been struck by lightning and ever since then. Here's the thing. She hadn't told him that she was psychic because usually, you know, when she told people she was psychic, they were kind of judgmental. And so she kind of kept it under her hat. And he totally ate that up completely. The truth was that she was super psychic. She came from a family of psychics.

Psychic, psychic, psychic. I knew you were going to ask me that question. Rich Irish psychics. Mm-hmm. Sure. In what appears to be a promotional video, Mare is sitting in her kitchen talking about what an amazing psychic she is. Promotion? Like, is she doing, like, a Miss Cleo situation?

She's just advertising her services. Where is she advertising them? Just on the web. Okay. You ever heard of the World Wide Web? I'm familiar with it, yes. I gotta say, it's not a bad video. Oh, is it good production value?

No, I mean, it's a YouTube video. They've got the music in the background. But I'm just saying, like, you would consider using her services? She's got a very calm demeanor. Oh, okay. And, I mean, she specializes in too much shit, okay? So that's a bit of a red flag. Yes, she can help you talk to your dead relatives.

Yes, she can predict the future. Yes, people do come to her for business advice. For example, one of her clients is this big real estate, big deal guy and he was like, what do you think

of this property? She's like, I got a bad vibe. And so he didn't buy it. He didn't buy the property. And you know what happened two weeks later, Brandy? What happened two weeks later?

Burned the fuck down. So he would have been ruined financially. Yeah. Good thing he went to Mara the psychic. Okay. By the way, you know, she's Irish. Have I mentioned the Irishness of it all? Yeah. she's Irish. Have I mentioned the Irishness of it all? Okay, so I'm going to now do an imitation of

her Irish accent from this video. Okay. Why do you look afraid? I am. I love when you do voices. Okay, here's my imitation of Mare and her very unusual accent. I would always know things were happening before they were happening and everyone would laugh at me. So I stopped admitting that I knew these things were going to happen. That concludes my impression of Mare's Irish accent. There was no Irish accent. She sounds exactly like me, Brandi. I'm like, what the fuckish accent are we talking about here i watched

her als buck ice bucket challenge video she claims it was filmed by her personal massage therapist because you know again rich yeah no no accent this woman does not sound irish in any way she sounds like me it'd be like if you heard me and you were like, oh, you're from Ireland. What an unusual accent. It's so beautiful. So, yeah, she's a psychic now. And she's a really good psychic.

She knows just what to say to people. Did that computer make a noise? It sure did. How rude. Is it going to explode? I hope not. Does it not know that we're recording an award-winning podcast here and cannot be interrupted? Award pending.

I think all con artists should go into psychic tree. Which I think is when you give a psychic reading. From a tree. Would you ever go to a psychic? Yeah, absolutely. I would too. I think it sounds so fun. 100% I would.

Yeah. All right. Let's do it. Let's see what Mare's up to. Yeah. So, you know, she's doing great in that. Yeah. And also, she started dating a new guy.

Oh. His name was Bob Turner, and he was an electrical engineer. He was handsome, successful, and he was pretty smitten with Mare. He normally had a rule that he'd wait six months before he introduced a woman to his children, but for Mare, you know, he had to bend the rules a little. So he introduced her to his kids after five months. He couldn't help it. Mare was so great. Yes, she was an Irish heiress,

but she was also a former Olympic level figure skater. She was also an expert on child custody. Let's revisit the Olympic level ice skater there for a second. That seems like that would be really easy to verify. Okay. I thought the same thing initially. But in this article in The Hollywood Reporter, it specifically said Olympic level figure skater. Yeah, I get that. But to be Olympic level, you have to be competing at some level, which means there would be results from those competitions. Yeah, but those results are all the way over in ireland so and on the internet well sure but uh only if you can access the irish internet it's kind of like the

dark web um plus hey you're going to love this. Bob was religious and so was Mare. Look at that. They had that in common. Was Mare religious before or is she just religious now with Bob? That's rude. Okay. Also, Bob loved his kids and so did Mare.

She was wonderful with them. Isn't that sweet? Pretty nice, huh? Yeah, it was very nice. So things seemed good, but then all of a sudden they weren't. And it was all because of her obnoxious money-grubbing family. God damn.

God damn. One day, Mayor told Jonathan that the district attorney was demanding $50,000 to make her case go away. What? Yeah. Okay.

So that's a really interesting wording that was in the episode of the con. So one of the things that I thought was so interesting about this was Jonathan, in the beginning, had kind of no knowledge about court stuff. What he's actually describing here is restitution. So, yeah. But she never said, oh, I took a plea deal. I pled guilty. Yeah, I've got to pay restitution now.

So all he knew was she needed this amount of money and she'd be in the clear. Yeah. The problem was that her family had managed to freeze her bank accounts so she couldn't pay the fine, you see. That is rough. By bit point. And by this point. This is what people call karma, Kristen. And it comes around.

The problem for you, my dear, is I'm not as bothered by it. You're absolutely right. I say dumb shit all the time. Oh, so do I. No, not at the rate that I do, and that is a brag. I'm just saying, when you say dumb shit at the rate that I do, you can't get upset every time it happens. So by this point, Jonathan and Mare had been best friends for like four years. I believe he had lent her some money, you know, up to this point.

Jonathan didn't have $50,000 in cash, but he did have a really good credit score. So he let her charge $50,000 to his credit cards. Holy shit. Yeah. He had no reservations about doing this. He trusted her completely. Yeah, because he's like, they're going to get, she's going to get her assets unfrozen. She'll pay me back with interest.

She'll pay the whatever my credit card interest is, which is usually like ridiculously high. Yeah. And I mean, it's so smart. She presented the same wounds that he had. Yeah. Family estrangement. Yeah. And so, yes, he wants to help her.

Absolutely. Oh. Yeah, it's determining your victim's vulnerabilities. Mm-hmm. And then picking at them. Yep. Yeah. So he gave her his credit cards.

But Mare's accounts continued to stay frozen. So she had to borrow some more money. And then one day she asked him to have a cup of tea with her and she gave him some bad news. Turns out the judge was mad that she'd used credit cards to pay her fine. The judge referred to it as money laundering. Jeez. And as punishment, she now had to go to jail

for 30 days. Mare was scared to go to jail. Is that... That's not real. What do you mean? That's not the real reason she's having to go to jail, is it?

Are you not trusting Mare? I'm not trusting Mare. I don't think that's what money laundering is. She is going to Olympic level skate all around your ass. She may have been convicted of money laundering, but that's not what she's explaining here. Your problem is you don't trust enough. Okay. I do have trust issues. That is correct. I noticed that ever since I said that this came from a show called The Con and the podcast is The Clean Con, you've been very skeptical of our Irish heiress.

Mare was scared to go to jail. Not that you give a shit. But the good news was that she wasn't convicted of a felony. You know, just 30 days in jail. All right. Her inheritance would be safe. She just had to get through those 30 days in jail. So the irony here is Jonathan's like giving her a pep talk. He's like, you're going to be OK. You're going to get through this. It's just 30 days. You know, you can do this. Yeah. Soon enough, Mare went to jail and she called Jonathan from jail every day and every day she insisted that he not come to see her. She did not want him to see her like this. Jonathan tried to respect her wishes but eventually he was like you know this is fucked up

my best friend is in jail I need to go see her is she not really there is she not really in jail where do you think she is I don't fucking know please make three guesses I will not

just keep on keep it on you're no fun Please make three guesses. I will not. Just keep on. Keep it on. You're no fun. So he got onto the county jail. Secret facelift. Secret 30-day facelift. How long do you think these things take? I don't know.

Recovery times can be. I feel like a facelift recovery time is. Yeah, but like she didn't hide any of the other shit from him. Why would she hide the facelift? I don't know. Okay. Oh, excuse me. Okay.

So I'm sorry. Butt implants? Ass implants. Yeah. Rehab. Okay. Okay. Those are my three guesses.

All right. Very good. I appreciate you playing. You're welcome. You've done horribly and you will get no prize. I hope this has taught you something about being vulnerable. So he got onto the county jail's website to schedule the visit. And when he did that, you know, you pull up the person's profile.

Wait. What? Okay, no, she is really in jail, but her name's not Mayor whatever. Okay, sorry, continue on. Okay, so she is in jail, but it's for a facelift stop this is a service that they offer wealthy women while you're recovering from plastic surgery you can go to jail and so he pulled up her profile and his blood ran cold. According to that profile, Mayer was in jail for felony grand theft.

He couldn't breathe. He thought there had to be a mistake. So he dropped everything and went to the courthouse. Yeah. They gave him a box with all the records from Mayer's case. It was like 40 pages long. And it contained the truth. She had stolen $200,000 from her employer.

And I scrolled too far ahead in my notes, as I do sometimes. Oh, the next line, I couldn't have done this on my own. Everything she'd said to him was a lie no yeah i'm glad we had no idea yeah that's right as it turned out she only needed to pay 40 grand in restitution all that other money she'd borrowed from him was just like like fun money extra great jonathan was devastated yeah he'd given a con artist nearly 70 000 he went home to his husband and collapsed in pablo's arms he sobbed he said i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry he was sad and ashamed and devastated. That would be a terrible feeling. Oh, it would be awful. This person you thought was your best friend. Who you thought you were helping.

And they just played you. Oh. Yeah. It would be horrible. Sad thing is I've been playing you. You stop it. It's called a long con. Yeah.

It started in the fifth grade. We're like 26 years in. I'm going to cash in someday. You're not going to see it coming, I'm telling you that. So he was really sad, but eventually that sadness turned to anger. So when it came time for Mare to get out of jail, Jonathan offered to pick her up. Oh. And he secretly recorded their conversation on his phone. Surreptitiously. Surreptitiously. That's right. He had it in his little pocket.

Okay. Like a shirt pocket? I imagine so. But you know what? Now that I say that, I don't really know. I feel like I'm not going to get a clear enough recording from a pants pocket. I feel like it was, yeah. It's got to be a shirt pocket. Okay. I just want to have a really clear picture. Here's how the conversation went.

Jonathan. So, unpleasant stuff. Mayor. Okay. Jonathan. Okay. Jonathan. You've been lying to us the whole time about everything. Mayor. And she was like, the whole time?

And she was like trying to make a joke, like quote Mrs. Doubtfire. And he went along with it because he does like Mrs. Doubtfire. As we all do. That's right. Mayor says, about what? Jonathan, your plea deal was for $40,000, not $54,000. Mayor, that's not true, Jonathan. Jonathan, I have the court record. Mayor. Okay. Jonathan.

That last four grand you needed that came out of nowhere, that was a lie. You've been scamming us out of money this whole time. Mayor. I have not, Jonathan. Jonathan. You have. You're busted. Mayor broke down crying. She said she'd pay him back, but she never did.

Yeah. And soon she was evicted from the apartment complex. Jonathan later said, you can't get blood from a stone. You can't get payback from a con artist. The only thing I could get at that point was justice. I wanted justice. Yeah. So I went to the police. But that visit to the police department in March of 2017 didn't really go too great. Jonathan showed up with evidence of all the financial transactions. But he says the police told him essentially, you know, this isn't a crime. And Jonathan said, well, yeah, I gave her the money, but she lied to get it. Isn't the lying a crime? And the officer was kind of like, not really. And the officer ended their meeting by advising Jonathan to not give money to strangers.

OK, well, that's not what happened here. Right. He was conned out of money. I, you know, it'd be interesting to know more about that conversation. I think in situations like these where it's complicated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You get told there's nothing here.

Nothing we can do here. No, I'm sorry. There absolutely is something here. The way the cookie crumbles. You gave her the money. It's he said, she said, blah, blah, blah. No, because it is very complicated. Yeah.

But no, I don't believe there's nothing that can be done. It is very complicated. Yeah. But no, I don't believe there's nothing that can be done. It has too many parallels to me to some of the earlier Internet crimes where police were like, well, you know, bear. Yeah. Yeah. That's a quote from the barrister bear.

They look so cute in those wigs. But they are ineffective. You go to them for help and they're like, brr. Because their laws are really more for bears. It's a lot of stuff about if someone steals your honey. Like jungle law. Jungle law. You have to explain that, Brandy.

That's a very regional joke. I'm not going to explain it at all No it's a ridiculous law firm here In the Kansas City area Okay somebody did Write in and tell us that the guy in the commercials Is an actual attorney with Jungle Law Because of Advertising rules he has to be

So that guy holding the talking monkey I don't think the talking monkey actually talks, just to be clear. No, you can absolutely tell that that is a real attorney. Yeah. All right. His Fabio hair. Yeah. Okay.

I've got more respect for the barrister bears. So Jonathan refused to accept defeat. He decided to start his own investigation. One of the first things he did was start a blog. He wrote down everything that Mayer had done to him. So this is actually super rare. Most people who are victims of con artists are too embarrassed to go public. Absolutely. Yeah. But Jonathan said he felt like this was the only way he could stop Mare from doing this to someone else. And he knew she had to be doing it to someone else. Of course. In particular, Jonathan was worried about that new guy she was seeing. All he knew was that... Bob Vance, Vance Refrigeration.

No, Brandy, that's a fictional character from the popular television program, The Office. I'm talking about Bob Turner of Newport Beach. I'm pretty sure Turner is his last name. I can't remember. That was many pages ago. All he knew was the guy's name was Bob. He lived in Newport Beach. And he had a picture that Mayor had sent to him of her with Bob.

Okay. So he posted on his blog? Yep. Do you know Bob? Is that what he called that particular entry? I mean, basically. Yeah. I know his name is Bob.

I know he lives in Newport Beach. I know the woman he's with in the picture is Mayor Smith and she's scamming him. If you know this man, warn him. Sure enough, at that very moment, Mayor was scamming Bob. Of course she was. After she'd gotten kicked out of her apartment, she told Bob that she was sick of LA, you know, done with it. And she wanted to live in Newport Beach. Of course she did. What she really wanted was like a nice home that overlooked the ocean, you know. And sure enough, she found one.

Oh, yeah. It was beautiful. It was only $12 million. Just $12 million. That's right. She asked Bob to come look at the place. Does Bob have $12 million? No. million that's right she asked bob to come look at the place does bob have 12 million dollars no brandy she's a wealthy i mean but she's not really get with the program okay all right all

right all right she's very wealthy she's a wealthy irish heiress right yeah i forgot for a moment repeat myself so she asked bob to come look at the place with his children. And, of course, the kids loved the house. It was beautiful. Of course everybody did. His daughter was dipping her toe in the pool. Oh, my gosh. So exciting.

Mary decided that the house was perfect. She'd take it. All right. She'll take it. Okay. She told the real estate agent that she would wire the funds over soon. You know, she's going to pay for it out of her inheritance. And she gave Bob some unexpected and very generous news.

She told him that she wanted to put his name on the title of her new home. Mm-hmm. Isn't that sweet? No. That's amazing. It's not sweet at all. It is because she's going to pay for it. No, she's not.

With what money? Inheritance. Fuck, okay. Coming soon. Great. Arriving at a bank account near you. So, yeah, that would be something she would do for him. She'd put his name on the title.

And Bob owned two homes in Newport Beach because, you know, electrical engineer did quite well for himself. Maybe since she was putting his name on the title of her $12 million home, perhaps he could put her name on the titles of his homes. What do you think, Brandy? Great. I mean, that's the least he could do. Yeah. It's like, let's bam, emerald this relationship to the next level. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Kick it up a notch. This was just part of Irish royal culture, kind of, to do this. No. I know it seems unusual to you, but that's just what her family did. No, it's not. She also talked a lot about, you know, what else she planned to do with her inheritance. Yeah, what else she got planned?

Well, she knew that Bob's son was super into Lamborghinis. He thought Lamborghinis were so cool. She's going to buy him a fucking Lamborghini. Yeah, that's the plan. Fuck right off, Mare. Oh, someone's jealous. Yeah, I'm jealous. I bet you want Mare to buy you.

Mare's not buying me an imaginary Lamborghini with her imaginary inheritance. So things were getting really serious between Bob and Mare, Brandy, jealous. In fact, at some point, Mare was like, you know what? I'd like to meet your ex-wife. What? Well, what do you mean, what? It seemed like a good idea. Bob's ex-wife was the mother of his children.

Clearly, Mare was becoming a very important part of his life. It made sense for them to all get to know one another. Sure. It's a great time. What do you mean? Nothing. Okay. So they get together for a glass of wine at a restaurant.

Wonderful. They had a nice time. Together for a glass of wine at a restaurant. Wonderful. They had a nice time. But Bob's ex-wife must have had some pretty good spidey senses. Because early the next morning she called Bob and she was like, I need to see you like right away. It's very important.

So they met up for coffee and she handed him a bunch of printouts from Jonathan's blog. Yeah. So turns out after she got home the night before, she was like, I'm going to hop on Google and just Google this woman's name. And she came across the blog. So Bob, I mean, oh, my God. Shat his pants. I'm sure. I mean, can you imagine? No.

So he's stunned. He went home and, of course, Mare was right there and he confronted her with what he'd learned from Jonathan's blog. And Mare was so offended. She was like, these are all lies. How can you believe any of that stuff? And, you know, as she's saying this. The audacity when I am putting you on my $12 million home. Oh, my gosh.

I had so much money earmarked for that Lamborghini. And, like, as she's saying this, she's, like, gathering her shit. And then she left and never came back. Holy shit. Holy shit. Yeah, he dodged a bullet. Absolutely. She would have ruined him financially.

Yeah. But, you know, he did okay thanks to Jonathan's blog. Yeah, no kidding. And his ex-wife's spidey senses. Yeah. Weeks went by, and Jonathan's blog began to, no kidding. And his ex-wife's spidey senses. Yeah. Weeks went by and Jonathan's blog began to get some traction. Soon he began hearing from victims from all over the place. Well, absolutely. You know, he's not the only one. Nope. He heard from people in Maine, Michigan, New York,

Florida, Ireland. Oh. Jonathan became obsessed with getting to the bottom of this. So he used to be a reporter, so he's just putting his skills to use. He pored over court documents. He ran background checks. He talked to other victims. He discovered that Mare had used a bunch of different names over the years. Mare Andel, Marion Welsh, Marion Ellis, Marion Clark. Marianne Welsh, Marianne Ellis, Marianne Clark.

He discovered that she'd been born and raised in Maine, and she'd later moved to Tennessee, where she told everyone that she had breast cancer. Yeah, she told people, you know, sad, true stories about having breast cancer and not being able to afford treatment, so naturally people gave her money. One weird thing that, like, everyone could confirm was that Mare had always wanted to be Irish. She had like a weird fascination. It's super weird. I know. And in 2000, she went to Ireland on vacation and oopsies stayed for nine years and actually married an Irish guy.

Oh. And you're not going to believe this, but she had pulled some big scams while she was over there. What? Jonathan learned that police in Ireland had been looking for Mare for years. Wow. Apparently she'd worked as a mortgage broker

or something and she'd scammed 26 people out of $500,000. And then she fled the country. Yeah. Through his research, Jonathan discovered that there were a couple of cons that Mare was pretty fond of pulling. For example, she loved to pretend she had cancer. As it turned out, she tricked their landlord out of having to pay thousands of dollars in rent by saying she had cancer. Oh my gosh. He discovered that Mare had saying she had cancer. Oh my gosh. He discovered that Mare had low blood iron. I mean, I don't know anything about this, but had that. And sometimes she'd let her iron get super, super low

so she could get into the hospital for some transfusions. And while she was there, she'd have a nurse take a picture of her and then she'd send that picture to, you know, whoever she wanted to scam. Yep. He also discovered that Mare had a profile on sugardaddy4me.com. No. She'd hook up with these married guys for money, and then when they wanted to end the relationship, she'd blackmail them for more money. Which I'm not too mad about that. I'm not mad about that either.

Why couldn't she have stuck to that? Yeah. Why couldn't she have stuck to that? He discovered that Mare had been charged with fraud and grand theft in Florida and Tennessee. He found so many victims, but only two had ever come forward to authorities. Wow. At one point, Jonathan remembered that Mare had given him the password to her AOL account. This was like months and months later. Okay.

He thought for sure she would have changed the password by now. Or probably just deactivated her ancient AOL account. Turns out she had not changed her password. So he logged in and that's how he confirmed that all of the mean cousins she'd been interacting with and the barristers she'd been talking to had all been coming from inside the house, as it were. What about the bears? How dare you? All of those accounts were on separate platforms, but they all used the same password. Jonathan figured out that she hadn't just impersonated fake cousins.

She'd also created email accounts for Jennifer Aniston, Ashley Judd, hockey players Jack Capuano and Garth Snow. She created an email account for an Irish mobster named Finnegan. Very scary dude. She also impersonated the L.A. deputy district attorney to her boyfriend, Bob. So that's nice. Jonathan hired six private investigators to look into Mayer's past. He found six. Yeah. Seems like a lot. Well, I think it's all over the place. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. All right, I'll allow it. Okay. Jeez. He found old photos of her, and man, she looks very different in every photo.

Wow, she's like a chameleon. Chama, chama, chama, chama, chama, chameleon. Karma, karma, karma, karma, chama, chameleon. Yes. When will I learn? She was blonde. She was a redhead. She had black hair, long hair, short hair, yellow teeth, bright white teeth.

You know, the whole deal. Initially, when she'd gotten all those plastic surgeries, he just assumed that she'd been doing rich lady shit. No, she was trying to change her appearance. Yeah, yeah. Jonathan kept digging and digging. His investigation took months. He reached out to people he suspected had been scammed by Mare. He knew that Mare had started a GoFundMe in honor of her daughter, Courtney.

And now he wondered if Courtney had ever even existed. I wondered the same thing, Jonathan. I'm sure you're listening. What do you think? No. Nope. Totally made up? Yep. Courtney was real. And she had passed away from cystic fibrosis. Oh, shit. Okay. Well, now I feel bad. Well, here's the thing. Mare had virtually no involvement in Courtney's life. Evidently, she got pregnant. She married this guy, Jeff Welch, and she had the baby. And at about four months old, Courtney was diagnosed with cystic fibrosis. Jeff said that, you know, everything in their relationship had seemed fine. The pregnancy had gone fine. Everything was fine. You know, Courtney was a really happy baby. home with Courtney from the hospital, Mare made it pretty clear that she wasn't interested in being a mom. She wasn't interested in being a wife. And she eventually just took off. Wow. So Jeff had

full custody of their daughter, I think starting from when she was like a year old. He's a registered nurse, so he took good care of her. This actually makes perfect sense to me. OK, why? Well, because you have to have some kind of detachment ability to be able to scam people who are you are pretending to be their best friend. So this makes sense to me that she would also be detached from her own child. Yeah. Yeah. And Courtney had passed away in November of 2012. Wow. Poor Jeff.

I mean, when he found out that she had used photos of his daughter and scammed people, he was just disgusted yeah jonathan also reached out to this woman michelle who'd been one of mayor's clients when she was a psychic so michelle had really loved mayor she thought mayor had a gift and actually referred a bunch of her friends and family to mayor but when mayor had gone to jail she'd'd given Jonathan a box of her belongings for safe keeping. And at some point he'd been like, fuck it, I'm opening the box because he knew he'd been scammed. And he found all kinds of documents, including Michelle's social security number and a bunch of her banking information. Oh, my gosh. He had met Michelle at a Halloween party. And of course, he's very embarrassed now because, you know, you don't know which photos from your life are going to have to be used in a show.

Oh, right. What did he dress up as? Oh, he and his husband had dressed up as, like, beer guys, you know, with the little hats. Oh, like Lederhosen? Yeah, yeah. Okay, like Oktoberfest. Mm-hmm. Okay.

Guess what Mare went as? What? The devil. Mm. Two on the nose. That is. Two on the nose. So anyway, now he's like, those are the stupidest costumes ever.

Yeah. I'm never there. So he reached out to Michelle, told her what he found. And Michelle was like, holy shit, because she'd suddenly been getting these weird credit card statements for cards that she hadn't opened. So she went to the police, but that didn't end up doing a whole lot. She never had definitive proof that Mare had done this. But she was at least able to file a police report and list Mare as a suspect. I don't know. So Jonathan was gathering all this information and he was definitely making life harder for Mare by exposing her online.

But he still wanted justice. Yeah. So he decided to become a huge pain in the ass for police. Yeah. He called them every day for a year. Every time he got any new information, he called them up. He said, when you're the victim of a crime, if you don't call the police every day about your case, your paperwork gets buried under a thousand other cases and eventually gets forgotten. So Jeffrey McGee is the local deputy district attorney, and he was interviewed for the episode of The Con.

And he was basically like, you know, this is a really complicated case. And he felt like if they took it in front of a jury, it could really go either way. Yeah. But Jonathan's investigation uncovered a lot of information. And I think the big thing is he made it very clear that he was not going away. This is a TV producer. He was like, I'm working on a documentary about this. You know, this.

Yeah, I'm not fucking going anywhere. And, you know, you don't want to be you don't want to have that part in the documentary where it's like phone calls to the police have not been returned. Yeah. The district attorney told me to suck my own butthole, you know. That is so often a line that is included in documentaries. Yep, that's in true crime bingo for sure. So in 2018, Mayer was finally arrested and charged with grand theft. Wow.

Okay, so they had a preliminary hearing. Mare was finally arrested and charged with grand theft. Wow. Okay. So they had a preliminary hearing. Yeah. She's got to take a plea deal on this, right? You would think, right? Okay. I'm sorry. Okay.

Okay. So they're at the preliminary hearing. Yeah. Got to figure out, do we have enough to go to trial? Is Jonathan there? What do you fucking think? Of course he's there. Okay.

Great. Mare's there too. Yeah. You want to hear about what she was wearing? Fuck yes, I do. Okay. Keep in mind. Mare's there too. Yeah. You want to hear about what she was wearing? Fuck yes, I do. Okay, keep in mind she's wealthy, royal. Yeah. Jimmy Chew's all the way.

Okay, well, she shows up in jeans, a casual, ill-fitting top. Oh, how ill-fitting? Pretty dumpy looking. Okay, okay. So she's dressing down for this her hair was screaming to be deep conditioned and she was on crutches why who fucking knows i'm sure a very real thing had happened yeah i'm sure the judge ultimately decided that the case should move forward and that Mare should get herself a hot oil treatment. Court ordered hot oil treatment.

To the salon. Her trial would begin in January of 2019. Okay. But about a month before that, Mare filed a restraining order against Jonathan. What? Fuck off, Mayer! Yeah. Okay, so Jonathan about lost his mind.

I bet he fucking did. So he had to go hire an attorney, which of course cost even more money. Yeah. And the attorney was like, ooh, okay, here's the deal. If a judge grants her the restraining order, you would be prevented from testifying against her at her criminal trial. So not a bad move on her part. Yeah. OK, so on the podcast, I thought this was so this was kind of funny. So for this restraining order, Mare had taken a picture at church and three rows in front of her was this was this guy.

And he's like a bald, white, chubby guy. And also Jonathan's description. Yes. And so Jonathan sees this. And first of all, he's like, okay, first of all, you know, that person is three rows in front of you. They're not threatening you. But also that is clearly not me. Yeah.

So he shows the picture to his friends and they're like, oh, that does kind of look like you. to look like you. Apparently they even tried to recreate a photo with him in that exact same position to show how different he looked from this guy. But he looked a lot like that guy. Oh no.

But anyway, luckily, Mayor's request for a straining order either got denied. Also, Jonathan... Did you call it a straining order? Did I call it a straining order either got denied also jonathan did you call it a straining order did i call it a straining order re-straining order it's already been strained once yeah over here we like to double strain we do it right because we care. Also, Jonathan did not allow himself to get served.

Oh, OK. People knocked at his door. Not fucking answering. No. Is my name Jonathan? No, it is not. He went in the back way to his apartment. Mm hmm.

Mm hmm. Apparently, his attorney was like, do you have a back way to get into your apartment? He's like, I'm a gay man. Of course I do. Jonathan is very funny. So this whole thing's moving forward. But as you predicted, before the trial started, Mayer was offered a plea deal.

Because again, potentially a complicated case. You don't want to mess with this. If she pled guilty, she'd get a year in jail. And, you know, you only have to serve like half of that. So six months in jail. Yeah. Did she take it? No. She didn't?

No, she didn't. She turned it down? She turned it down. Well, that's a bold choice. Indeed. It's a bold strategy cut Indeed. Bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it plays out for her. So on January 4th, her trial got underway.

Jonathan, of course, was super nervous by this point. He'd spent two years investigating her. He'd hired six private investigators. He'd spent more than $20,000 of his own money on this investigation. of his own money on this investigation. And, you know, to complicate it, this case is only about whether she'd stolen from him. They couldn't discuss prior convictions,

couldn't discuss prior bad acts. I know. Ooh, that is tough. So the prosecution's main job was to get as many people as possible to testify that Mayer had told these lies about herself and essentially established that Jonathan wasn't making this up. And he wasn't just like misinterpreting what Mayer had said to him. Ex-boyfriend Bob took the stand, talked about all the lies that Mayer had told him. And he told the jury about that moment when he confronted her. Here's what he said.

When I came back with documents from Jonathan's blog, she literally left within minutes out of my house. Prosecution. How did you interpret the fact that she bolted? Bob. I never saw her again. I interpret it as there was some level of truthfulness to it. Which, yeah, you fucking would. Yeah. A costume designer who I believe

had paid Mare like $10,000 to be her life coach also testified about Mare's lies. Of course, she couldn't talk about the 10 grand because, you know, that was a prior bad act. But she could talk about the lies that Mayer told her, like when Mayer said that she was a licensed psychologist. Mayer's own daughter, Chelsea Welch, also testified against her mom. Wow. Yeah. So her testimony was very important. It was also very interesting because, again, the prosecution can't bring up all the bad acts, but the prosecutor could ask Chelsea kind of in general what she thought of her mom. And in that sense, Chelsea was able to paint a picture of someone who had a history of manipulation.

She referred to her mom as a compulsive liar. She told the court, I think that she's a very troubled person who has used her intelligence malevolently, and the things that she has been accused of, I'm absolutely disgusted by. Wow. Jonathan, of course, took the stand. Of course! He was very passionate, at times too passionate.

The judge had to tell him to calm down a few times. At one point on the stand, you know, Jonathan was talking about the first time he met Mayer. And here's what he said. And I think this is kind of a fun interaction. So he goes, she showed up where there was a problem and she had a solution, which I had no idea at the time. But that's like con artistry 101. Of course, mayor's defense attorney was like, objection, your honor, move to strike. Judge, the last portion is stricken. When evidence is stricken, treat it as though you never heard it. And Jonathan's sitting there standing, he goes,

sorry. So Jonathan was a little excited, but what he said was pretty compelling. I mean, Sorry. So Jonathan was a little excited. But what he said was pretty compelling. I mean, he told the jury that he'd had to file for bankruptcy. He said, this financially ruined me. He said, you know, because, again, he'd put all this on his credit cards. His credit score had gone down the toilet. He couldn't even buy a couch now. score, had gone down the toilet. He couldn't even buy a couch now. Yeah. Mayor's defense attorney, who was a public defender, despite the fact that she was like super rich. I don't know how that

worked out. Went after the fact that Jonathan was turning this whole thing into a story. And, you know, that was true. Jonathan was starting a documentary about this. He put a strategy. Sure. Yeah. He started a blog So Mayer's attorney asked Jonathan, why are you making a documentary? And Jonathan essentially said, I want to warn people about her. By the time I'm done with Marianne Smith, the world will know her face so she can never scam anyone again. Good for him. Oh, yeah, he was good. scam anyone again. Good for him. Oh, yeah, he was good.

Yeah. I mean, a TV producer? Yeah. He is the soundbite-iest soundbite you ever did bite. He's so good. Yeah, the defense was basically that Jonathan had made all of this up and had convinced other people to lie on his behalf because he's, you know, this big powerful Hollywood type. He just wanted to make an exciting documentary.

And, oh, you got to spice up the documentary with some untrue details. Isn't that true? And that's probably the best strategy they could. Yeah, I think that's the only thing. But I mean, I'm sorry when you've got her own daughter up there. You really think he convinced her own daughter? Yeah. No.

No. Other than that, the defense was pretty non-existent. Mayer did not testify, which Jonathan was shocked. He thought for sure she'd want to try to get up there. Exactly. She's a master con artist. Con the jury. See, I'm not surprised by that, though, because one thread in this story is when she gets caught, she leaves.

You're right. That is true. I mean, she knows when to cut and run. And I think she knew. She knows when to hold him. She knows when to fold him. She knows when to walk away. I think I said array.

She knows when to run. You gotta know when to. Oh, gosh, we got to make a whole song out of this. Do we? Yes, we do, Brandi. You got the Irish Constitution hanging on your wall. Signed by your uncle.

Don't let his ball See, see You never want to play these games But they're always fun Also there were no witnesses who testified on her behalf Because that's That's the problem with being a con artist Yeah Very lonely world Because that's the problem with being a con artist. Yeah.

Very lonely world. Just a small town girl. Okay, that's enough. About a week later, the jury returned with a verdict. Guilty. Yeah. Guilty, my friend. Yeah.

And on January 29th, 2019, they were all back in court for sentencing. Did she speak before sentencing? Nope. She didn't? I don't believe so. I mean, if she did, I didn't come across it. All right. What'd she get?

Oh, shit. I'm sorry. Yep. Sorry, sorry, sorry. That's okay. We'll back it up. Okay. Okay.

So she did speak at this point. And she said, they're always after me. Lucky charms. Wow. Boy, was that worth it? Everybody was like, Mayor, stop it. Stop it. And she said, they are.

They are after me. Lucky charms. So it was a tense moment they are. They are after me. Lucky charms. So it was a tense moment in court. It was, yeah. Obviously. Obviously, yeah. Also, Jonathan made a victim impact scene. Okay, great. What did Jonathan actually say for real? Well, he told the court about how he and his husband had been negatively impacted by Mary's deception.

He said, we had dreams of buying a house and of adopting kids. Mary Ann Smith ruined those dreams. However long she spends in jail will not change the fact that as soon as she's out, she will be scamming people again. A hundred percent. She deserves the strictest sentence you can give. Yeah. The judge did give her the strictest sentence he could give what is it five years in prison something he also ordered her to pay 60k in restitution but um you know i've already said like okay so you're sentenced to

five years typically that's like two and a half. But then this thing happened. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called COVID. She got an early release because of COVID. She was a nonviolent offender. Holy shit. Now here's the other thing. OK, so once she once she was caught, then evidently the authorities in Ireland were like, okay, great.

As soon as she's done there, we're going to extradite her for the mortgage stuff. So they were after her lucky charms. It's Ireland, Brandi. They have plenty of lucky charms. It's the land of lucky charms. They don't need mares. No. So because of COVID, of course, at that ireland's not like yeah they can't be

extraditing yeah they're like uh we've got bigger fish to fry chips on the side so mayor was hashtag blessed by covid wow you never hear a story like that do you no um i am going to end with a quote from Jonathan's blog. Yeah. And my voice is going to crack because I recently hit puberty. As you can see from my breast buds. Don't say breast buds. I hate breast buds.

Don't you? Stop saying that. It's what they're called at the beginning of puberty. It is. ma'am okay that's the worst term ever okay i don't get you because you can take it in the ass from a penguin but you can't talk about breastplate anyhow uh this is the quote out of the 45 victims i uncovered during my investigation only two of them ever reported her to the police. And that enabled her to continue scamming people years before she met me.

Most of her victims are too ashamed to tell anyone what happened to them. I'm ashamed, too. But my desire to stop her from hurting other people is much stronger than my shame. Yeah. OK. So I thought this was pretty interesting. He talked about how he thinks that being a gay man helped him with this. He's like, you know, when you come out of the closet, you just kind of accept that not everyone's going to welcome you. You just have to live your truth. truth yeah and so he felt like he had a leg up a little bit about like you know other people are going to judge me for this right they might say i should have done x y and z but that's interesting i thought that was so interesting yeah he's totally

right i mean that's the only way to stop these people. Oh, absolutely. Also, he has advice. If you're looking to avoid being scammed, the next time a stranger offers to help you with something, tell them to go fuck themselves. And that is a quote from his blog. Excellent. Excellent advice, Jonathan. Oh, and that's the story of an Irish heiress. Oh, my gosh. That was wonderful. I hate that shit.

I mean, she. Whoo. She got away with a lot. So much. I cannot believe the thing about the $12 million home. Yeah. Yeah. That, oh my gosh. Yeah, she was going to take Bob's houses out from under him.

Yeah, and who knows what else. Yeah. Because probably once your name is on the titles for homes, like. Yeah. Surely that gets you access to a lot of, oh God. Yeah, I can imagine. Should we take some questions from our Discord? I believe we shall.

But what the hell are you talking about? A Discord? Yeah, it's a thing that you get in if you join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. Which you should do. That's right. Drop everything. Oh. Gooch comma liner wants to know, Brandy, did you ever forgive Noodles & Co. for getting rid of your spicy chicken Caesar wrap?

No. Yeah. Simple as that. No. No. No forgiveness. I no longer go there because they do not have what I want. Yeah.

It's a sad true story. It is. It is. Oh my gosh. Clark Adventures 94 says, not a question, but a request. All right. I'm a bartender at Cheddar's in Bowling Green, Kentucky. And I need you guys to do a live show here and come get a painkiller from me.

Done and done. Oh, my Lord. Let me tell you, I had one of those and then went antiquing afterward. I was stumbling through the antique mall after one beverage. OK, kick him in the nuke sack. Says Kristen, as a fellow runner, I'm just curious what brand of shoes you prefer to run in. I used to be a Nike girl till the podiatrist I worked for told me they aren't good for

running, more fashion than anything, and I should switch to Brooks. I did, and I haven't gone back. Yeah. If you're running in Nikes, what the fudge are you thinking? What are you doing with your life? Brooks are the way to go. Also, Asics. Oh, okay.

Mm-hmm. I will not deviate. Yeah. You can't force me, Brandy. Also, Crocs. You don't run in Crocs. No one runs in Crocs unless they're being chased by a barrister bear. There's that powdered wig blowing in the wind oh fiery one the fuel eagle asks my girlfriend and i are currently in the

process of her moving in with me what was it like for you guys when you first moved in with your significant other oh what was that adjustment like for you okay because when you first moved in with your significant other oh what was that adjustment like for you okay because when you and norm lived together oh i guess you probably what i was gonna say it was the first time you lived with a guy but it's not so no and i'd had roommates before then because i'm a very exciting worldly woman brandy oh my gosh i remember like with norman everything was so different because I wanted to be at home. Yeah. Like I wanted to spend as much time with him as possible. Yeah. It was just really exciting.

Yeah. I mean, that's absolutely what it was like when David moved in. Also, there was an added level because David had Jack. So I had we had, you know, a kid moving into my house, too. So like David and Jack moved into my house. And I just remember it being so exciting and like. Loved it. But also you were like, where am I going to fart now? No. Oh, OK. So we're not being honest. We are being honest.

I fart in the same place I farted before in the toilet where farts go. Oh, I don't know farts go. Oh. I don't know how you live your life. Oh, Munchie Potato wants to know, what size do you picture the Easter bunny? Huge. Normal rabbit sized? No. Human sized? Larger than that?

Larger than human. Same. Huge. Mildly threatening, really. Yeah, absolutely. Like if it wasn't a fluffy bunny, you would be terrified of it. You probably still are terrified. You probably should be.

I also picture him wearing a vest, a pastel vest. Oh, I picture him wearing a bow tie. You could do both. Yeah. But no pants or underoos. No. No. Naked from the waist down, for sure.

Which is how you like your penguins. Okay. Ooh, the Plainshitter wants to know, what did a Kristen and Brandy sleepover look like back in the day? Oh, well, we've got to figure out what year we're talking about here. Oh, my gosh. Okay. I'm picturing us at approximately 12 years old. Yeah.

There was always a group of us. Oh, yeah. In your basement. Yeah. Because I would have a couple friends. Yes. And my sister Kyla would have a couple friends. Yes.

And there was only a year difference between all of us. So we would all hang out in a group. Just one big group. Yeah. Sodas, sodas, sodas. Oh, yeah. And always chips. And then, yeah, we would all hang out in a group yeah sodas sodas sodas oh yeah and uh and always chips and then yeah we would always i mean there was always music we'd do i mean choreographed dances a lot of the time we were fabulous um we we really had like three movies that we watched

all the time but spice girls was yeah spice world number was mandatory viewing. At some point, we would be too loud. And then we'd hear the scary stomps. Across the floor. And then your mom would open the basement door and she'd say, Girls. Girls. Go to sleep.

And we would be terrified. Terrified, yeah. And we'd talk like this for a little while. And then we'd gradually get louder again. Oh, my God. And if you heard the stomps a second time. That was game over. Yeah, fake your own death. Yeah.

That was the time. Okay, when she came back the second time it wasn't just opening the door and girls it was Kristen and Kyla come up here yes and then we got the serious talk and then we'd

come down and spill that toxic poison on all of you also you fell asleep before everyone else generally poison on all of you. You burp. You burp. Also, you fell asleep before everyone else, generally. And we tried to do that thing where you stick someone's hand in warm water and they pee themselves. Never worked. You always just had a wet hand and you were

mad. Yeah, problem with that, I'm too light of a sleeper. Also not enough urine in you. That's right. That's right. We always joked about freezing someone's bra, but like never did it because it seemed like a step too far, I think. Also, if you're just doing a sleepover, who packs an extra bra? Yeah, exactly. Oh, I would love to know the answer to this okay

dop and ditz wants to know kristin what are some challenges you face as a left-hander i'm like 80 sure london's gonna be left-handed so i am i am interested to see the challenges you face is it because she has a superior brain, she just favors her left hand. I don't really know. It's fun. Okay, but when you were growing up, writing in spiral notebooks, was that like a huge pain in the ass? Because the spirals like... Well, but the thing is like you don't know any other way. That's true.

That is true. Also, I'm not a complainer. That's not true. I take it all on the chin also I have to pee very badly okay great so I might have to stop find the perfect question

okay damn it alright I'm back okay oh fuck I forgot I was doing questions. What on earth were you doing? Okay, what about desks in school? Yeah, that was for sure annoying.

Yeah. Okay, what about scissors? You have to buy special scissors? For me, that seems like a huge thing because I use shears every day. But yeah, it probably... I mean, it's... I don't know. Like, yeah. Yeah, I think I did have some special ones,

but like... Okay. I'm sorry. I feel like I'm not giving you what you want. I want to know how... Okay. ...difficult my daughter's life is going to be if she turns out to be a left-hander.

No one's had a harder life than me. And it's because I'm left handed. Nobody knows the troubles I've seen. Yeah. You know, I could talk about some of this stuff, but it's too painful. It's too painful. Right. Also, I don't want to bum people out.

You know, I'm more of a hero, really, because of what I've overcome. I pulled myself up by my bootstraps, using mostly my left hand, obviously. Okay. And that is why I am an American hero. And I don't think other people should get handouts. Especially if they're right-handed fuckwads. Okay. Great.

I'm glad you could get all that off your chest. I just felt like I was disappointing you with my previous answers. Corvid Family Reunion says, What's the first section you head to when you go to Target? I just know Brandy has a very specific routine. Oh, she's smiling like she does have a routine. I do. Let's hear the routine.

Well, it depends on if I'm there by myself or with the fam. If I'm there by myself. You're by yourself. Yep. Makeup section right away. Head there first is there a specific section or do you go like in order oh well no so okay so my I am very lucky and my personal target has an ulta inside of it so it's fucking wonderful so I spend the majority

of my time there yep and then should I need to get other things, then I, you know, go. I do like a loopy. Yeah. Toward the grocery section and then loop back around to the checkout. All right. Yeah. But, yeah, the Ulta is my first stop. Sure.

Sure. Yeah. What's your favorite drugstore brand? Nyx is the one I use the most. I would say that's my favorite. Okay. What about you? You got a favorite drugstore brand?

Yeah, L'Oreal. Oh, yeah. I like a L'Oreal. I actually don't think I have any current L'Oreal makeup. Well, Beyonce and I have that in common. Oh, okay. Just you and Beyonce using L'Oreal. It's one of the many things we have in common.

No, I've been a big fan of the neutrogena lately too really i use a neutrogena hyaluronic acid and then i follow it with a neutrogena um tinted serum which i no one gives a shit about your skincare routine ma'am okay well it's genetics skincare that's just that's my makeup routine that's not skincare well serum hyalur Well, serum, hyaluronic? Yeah, I put hyaluronic acid serum on first. That's skin care. But it's a part of my makeup routine. You have to start your makeup routine with skin care. Right, but that's called skin care.

Yeah, but I'm doing it so my makeup goes on nicely. That's fine, but that's still skin care. Okay. Ma'am. Ma'am. nicely. That's fine, but that's still skin care. Okay. Ma'am. I hate to tell you basic

rules. Oh. B with a little B emoji after says, I am forever confused about the shoe situation in the Caruso household. Brandy always wears shoes in there and into the sex dungeon.

Do you and Norm wear shoes in your house? Do all of your guests wear shoes? What length of time do they have to spend there before taking off their shoes becomes okay? Okay. My goodness. I didn't anticipate that we would alarm people this way. Yeah, I didn't either. I am a sock gal.

Yeah. I'm always wearing socks in the home. Norm's a barefoot boy. Yeah, he is a barefoot boy. And yeah, you don't take off your shoes. No. Would you prefer I take my shoes off when I come over? I don't care.

I don't take my shoes off in most people's homes. Maybe that's probably rude. Well, yeah, because you walk all over bathrooms, you nasty skank. Yeah, I'm the only person walking in bathrooms. Everyone else is just hovering above the floor. I do cartwheels. That's worse. Your hands are touching the floor.

hands are touching the floor. Fellow Never Nude wants to know, if there was a wife swap situation and you had to switch husbands, who do you think would last the longest? Here's the deal. I don't think either of us would actually have that much trouble with it because Norm and I are so similar. And you and David are so similar. Honestly, I was thinking the same thing. I think it would become a thing where they'd eventually be like,

okay, we're calling off the experiment. Yeah, we're calling it off because this hasn't been like the dramatic thing we wanted it to be. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah, I think it would be very boring yes i totally agree i'm trying to think of what what what would push it over the edge i don't even know

i i can't picture it me either i think it would be very boring until david and i fell in love no and then it'd be devastating for you and for norm falling in love with david he's mine yeah until he looks me in the eyes for too long over two personal cookie cakes that I invented for us. And then it's like, oh, shit, you know, disaster. Yeah, OK. Brandy, don't worry, this is not happening. Oh, OK. Michael, the sloppy wet hoe, wants to know, do you like a Mazda? It's apparently very important to a lot of us.

Mazda? Yeah, the car brand Mazda. Yeah. There was a very long discussion about Mazdas in the Discord today. Anyway, yeah, I liked the Zoom Zoom commercials back in the day. It's my entire exposure to Mazdas. How could anyone have an exposure to Mazdas. How could anyone have an opinion on Mazdas? Have you ever owned one? Did you like

driving it? I have no thoughts. Yeah, I never drove one either. Well, that's the extent. We've disappointed people greatly I feel. Amber, the Buy Disney adult, wants to know what's the correct way to put on your clothes?

Shirt first? Pants first? I think I'm usually a pants first type of girl. Well, that's not entirely true. Because I put my emotional support cami on first. What? Yeah, I wear like a little tank top under everything I wear. Oh, you do?

Yeah, every single outfit you've ever seen me in I've had a cameo on underneath it. Why? I don't know. Okay. Just part of who I am,

Kristen. It has fused with your skin? Okay. Yeah, so that's, okay, so always got the under ruse on already because I'm a never nude, right? Right.

Then when I'm going to get dressed, cami is the first thing that goes on. Then the pants. How many of those camis do you have? Okay. This is actually a very sad tale. What? Okay. I purchased a dozen of these camis many years ago.

Okay. They've since been discontinued. Oh, no. My stock is dwindling because they keep falling apart in the washing machine. Oh, okay. Like straps are, oh, they're from Walmart. Oh, well, don't you think you could find something? Oh, excuse me.

I'm very sorry for even going down that road i could tell by the look on your face would not be the same i have ridiculous i have attempted i've purchased many camis that seem like they'd probably be a fine substitution they are not okay but i'm i'm i'm down to like five so And I wear one every day. Yeah, you mentioned. Yeah. So I'm going to have to – I've got to start looking now. Yeah.

Sorry for your luck. Thank you. Do you want to tell us the story of when you first purchased the Walmart cami and what it did for you? I mean, I don't know a time where I did not wear a cami under – like I can't – I don't remember when it started. Were you presented with a Walmart cami and what it did for you i mean i don't know a time where i did not wear a cami under like i can't i don't remember when it started were you presented with a walmart cami at birth no but it has been so many years that i have done it i don't even know the origin i know nothing okay okay it's a it's a security thing because should my shirt you know ride up at some point don't worry there's a cami there.

You're not going to see any skin. There's no risk because that cami's down. Right. It's not going anywhere. Does this cami, like, reach down past your butt and, like? No. No, it's just, like, hip length. All right.

Gotcha. You know, it's not like a tunic. Okay. I didn't know if you had the crotch buttons. Yeah, yeah, I'm wearing a onesie. You know, I enjoy the look of a bodysuit with the crotch buttons. The problem is my torso's too long. It's too long.

You're just getting camel toe the whole time, right? Well, yeah, I'm going to pinch my vagina into, you know, a million pieces. Can't think straight. Can't function for a day. Okay. I would like people to weigh in. Are there other people that wear emotional support camis? I'm sure.

I'm sure. Also, because you mentioned Walmart, I have to say something that I feel like will be very controversial. Okay. Okay. I've decided that Target is a very depressing place. Why? I don't know. Okay. Okay. I've decided that Target is a very depressing place. Why? I don't know.

Okay, so here's the thing. You've turned your back on Target? Well, I mean, okay, so in high school, right, I loved Target. It was our place. It was all about Target. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I've been chasing that feeling. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. Chasing the dragon all these years. A couple years ago, Norm was like, Target's just like, it's depressing in there. It has that weird smell that all Targets have. Does Target have a weird smell? Brandy, yes. Brandy, you. I don't know the smell, I guess.

Oh, it's distinct. All right. All right. And yeah, I don't know the smell, I guess. Oh, it's distinct. All right. All right. And yeah, I don't know. I have noticed every time I go in there for the past few years, it's just a sad, sad time. And honestly, and I never thought I'd say this, I would rather go to Walmart. Wow, this is shocking information. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep.

is shocking information. Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. By the way, no one has to, like, reach out with stuff about how Walmart's a terrible company. I know. We all know. I know. We all get it. Well, how do you feel having that off your chest after all this time?

Do you feel like... Honestly, I was like, I can never tell Brandy this because she... I love Target. Yeah. I know. That's okay. You don't have to love the next penguins anyway um uh Brandy should we move on to Supreme Court induction we absolutely should all right we are going to do Supreme Court inductions now to get inducted on this podcast all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. We are going to continue to read your names and your first celebrity crushes.

Marianne Hines. Jensen Ackles. Vanessa Aplanip. Jeremy Sumter in the 2003 live action Peter Pan. That's specific. That's very specific. Very moving film. Jen Foom.

Jen Triolo. Patrick Swayze in Dirty Dancing. Sadie. Daniel Radcliffe. Kate Wonton. Orlando Bloom. Nina Bina. Michael J. Fox.

Shannon Mugjosh. Dale Earnhardt Jr. Woo! Pushlian Chen. Mamoru Chiba. Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon. I'll take your word for it. I'm familiar. Will Brackett.

Although I didn't realize it was a crush at the time, Jordan Knight from New Kids on the Block. Tessa Britt. Mikhail Baryshnikov. Baryshnikov. Baryshnikov. Very good. Emma Lynch. Gordon Ramsay. Carrie Coyman. Very good. Emma Lynch. Gordon Ramsay.

Carrie Coiman. Luke Perry. Mika. Ricky Martin. Mr. Mango on my shoulder. The entire cast of the 1999 classic The Mummy. Hayley Wright. Prince Eric from The Little Mermaid.

Lindsay. Christina Ricci. Brandy. AJ McLean. Lindsey. Christina Ricci. Brandy. A.J. McLean. Shannon. Zac Efron. Stephanie Batanzos. Andrew McCarthy in Pretty in Pink.

Don Beresford. David Cassidy. Michaela O'Connor. Cody Lindley. Samantha Martin. Devin Sawa. Jessica Starr. Noah Hathaway.

That's the first name that I don't know. I don't know who that is. In this particular group. Well, I guess I didn't know the Sailor Moon person either. I don't know many of these folks. Ashton Harris Ashton Kutcher Oh, yeah. Same first name.

Yep. They would both be Ashton Kutcher if they got married. Yep. I'm with you. Melaina. John Stamos. Treya. Hayden Christensen. Amanda R.

Bob Saget. That, that's. That's a first. That is a first, I think. Did you see Uncle Jesse? Guess not. Jessica Fees. Leonardo DiCaprio.

Jenny E. Val Kilmer. Sarah Morgan.. Leonardo DiCaprio. Jenny E. Val Kilmer. Sarah Morgan. Joey McIntyre. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon.

Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the article The Hollywood Producer, The Heiress, and a Very Personal Quest for Justice by Katie Kilkenny for The Hollywood Reporter. An episode of The Con titled The Heiress Con, and JonathanWalton.com. I got my info from reporting by Nick Budnick for the Willamette Week, and an episode of Web of Lies. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.