Let's Go To Court! - 255: A Trip to the Movies & the eBay Stalking Scandal

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

Chad just wanted to see a movie. He sat next to his wife, Nicole, as the previews rolled. When Chad pulled out his cell phone to check on his toddler, another moviegoer angrily told him to put his phone away. What happened next is the subject of some debate. One thing is for sure: Chad threw popcorn at the man who scolded him, and in response, that man – Curtis Reeves Jr – shot Chad in the chest. Then Kristin tells us about a couple in Natick, Massachusetts, who found themselves the victims of intense harassment and stalking. Ina and David Steiner weren’t entirely sure who sent them cockroaches in the mail, or who tailed them when they left the house. But they knew that their harassers were angry with Ina’s reporting on the couple’s website, EcommerceBytes. They never would have guessed just how powerful their attackers were. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: Segment of 60 Minutes, titled “Silicon Valley Scandal” “‘Take her down’: Inside eBay’s stalking campaign against a Natick couple,” by Mike Damiano for Boston Magazine “Inside eBay’s cockroach cult: The ghastly story of a stalking scandal,” by David Streitfeld for The New York Times “Couple harassed by former eBay employees sues company and former executives,” CBS News “Couple still haunted by eBay stalking scandal years after campaign of terror,” CBS News “Ex-eBay employees charged with mailing spiders, cockroaches and pig mask to critics,” by Irina Ivanova for CBS News In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Widow of man shot in theater pushes beyond anger to make love his legacy” by Anastasia Dawson, Tampa Bay Times “The Movie Theater Shooting (Curtis Reeves Trial), podcast episode, Court Junkie “A Movie Date, a Text Message and a Fatal Shot” by Frances Robles, The New York Times “He shot a man over tossed popcorn, prosecutors say. His defense: Stand-your-ground.” by Hanna Knowles, The Washington Post “Trial of Curtis Reeves underway 8 years after deadly shooting inside Florida movie theater” by FOX13 News Staff, Fox13 News “Widow describes moment her husband was shot in movie theater after argument over texting: "I see his eyes are just glazed over”” CBS News “After 8 years, a retired Florida police captain is standing trial for killing a man in an argument about texting in a movie theater” by Dakin Andone, CNN “Curtis Reeves trial: Moviegoers recall what they saw in theater shooting” by Anastasia Dawson and Chris Tisch, Tampa Bay Times “After acquittal, Curtis Reeves renews freedom; Chad Oulson’s widow grieves anew” by Dan Sullivan and Michaels Mulligan, Tampa Bay Times YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 47+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the eBay stalking scandal. And I'll be talking about a trip to the movies.

Oh, that sounds boring and uneventful. Oh my God, what if you just told us the plot to a movie? You would die. I would die. You'd jump out the window. Possibly. I've had that kind of week. I'm in no mood.

No mood for bullshit. That's me. No, this is a Kristen case that I'm doing today. Isn't it a little gifty to me? Yeah. Yeah. I doubt it. I bet somebody dies.

Well, anyway. Yeah. Yeah. I doubt it. I bet somebody dies. Well. Yeah. Anyway. Uh-huh. Do you want to tell the people how you're feeling today? This is a two-episode week, folks. Yes. I was given the beautiful gift this week of just getting to listen on the bonus episode,

which everybody get excited for because Casey came on the bonus episode and did an amazing case. Yeah. So Brandy skipped out of work. Meanwhile, I just did my job, you know? That's so rude of you to say because you know that I already feel bad about it. You should feel bad, Brandi. Because when you take time off, it punishes the rest of us.

And by the rest of us, I mean me specifically. But no, no, no. Do whatever you want to do. No, Casey did an awesome job. Yeah. I barely noticed that you weren't telling the story. That's rude also.

And you know I'm very insecure about that. No. Casey told us a story and she made us both look like dumbasses. Yes, she did. Because, you know, it was one of those, she's telling it and it's like, well, I know how this goes. Yeah. I was wrong multiple times. I got it in the end, though.

So sign up to hear that episode at the $5 level or higher on Patreon. Along with 46 other bonus episodes. And Brandi's on most of those episodes. Yes, I am. I'm on this one, too. I just didn't do a case. Brandi, why is this your thing? Why?

It's the work stuff. Yeah, it is. I just I so rarely fulfill my obligations. No, come on now. What is it about work? About how I feel about. Yeah. Oh, it's because my entire self-worth is tied up in how hard I work.

Oh. So on Monday, when you dropped the ball completely. I did not drop the ball. You must have felt pretty bad. But I just want you to know as your friend that I don't mind having to carry that extra burden. Thank you. I appreciate it. I know. Oh, Brand you. I appreciate it.

Oh, Brandi, I'm kidding. You needed it. I know you are. Yeah, it was wonderful. Yeah. It was really nice to just be able to enjoy the episode. I can only imagine. You're just like that Christian rock band. I can only imagine what it was like to have Monday off

and just sit and hear a story from my sister loving me. Should I become a Christian rocker? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'd have to i think i could do it i could like you know dress modestly but cute yeah and i'd be racist you know yeah just because i think i that would help the brand it would it i wouldn't really believe this stuff, but I'd do it for the business side. Yeah, absolutely. What are you, Tucker Carlson? Maybe I am. Maybe I am.

Maybe I've got a Blue Lives Matter sticker on the back of my car. Maybe I'm really concerned about looting. Maybe that's my vibe. Did you ever think about that? I didn't. You know, on these two episode weeks, sometimes I say things that I simply mustn't. Shouldn't. Shorn't.

Corn't. What? When did I eat corn't? Anyway, so I'm glad you're all here today i'm deeply sorry to those who i'm i've offended are you no no you know how i feel i do know how you feel how do i feel brandy tell them how feel. You simply do not care. No, that's not it. Okay, tell them. You don't have any idea how I feel.

How do you feel? I feel that it is quite important on a podcast such as this to every now and then say something that is going to make the douchebags run away. And every now and then I do it, you know? And God bless me. We will get some bad reviews. Yeah, it'll happen. We're used to that.

Are we? Are we? We like to be liked. We do like to be liked. And you know what else I like? It's a little podcast called... I Think Not. Uh-huh.

Everyone, look out. We are Business Cats. We're doing a promo swap with I Think Not, which is a great podcast that you should listen to. They are formerly known as Obsessed With Disappeared. And they have officially rebranded to a completely new show featuring stories of true crime that absolutely make us scream at the TV. It's called I Think Not with hosts Ellen Marsh and Joey Toronto. On I Think Not, Ellen and Joey chat about everything from bank heists to crooked cops to murder, tax evasion, Ponzi schemes, and more.

They're bringing you true crime stories through the lens of the campy television that covers them. They're widening their scope to feature more shows, more characters, and more madness. And they'll, of course, bring their signature brand of humor. Some of the shows they've been covering include Deadly Wives, Love After Lockup, Southern Fried Homicide, and so many more. Get ready to laugh, cry, and think about true crime in a whole different way with them on I Think Not. Find I Think Not wherever you get your podcasts. I get my podcasts

from a guy I know out back. Out back. What happened to my lip gloss? Is it poppin'? Did you steal my lip gloss? You know that I did not fucking steal the remnants of a tube. Aha!

You thought you could hide it over here, everyone. Brandy's always eyeballing my gently used cosmetics, thinking to herself, boy, I'd like to get my hands on that. Bet that doesn't have any bacteria in it. As you lather bacteria in it. As you lather up with it. Do I look good or do I look good? You look wonderful. Oh, my God.

Shut up. Didn't I put my shit in Do Not Disturb, boys? I don't know. Are you hot? I'm a little hot. I am not, but I'd be happy with the fan on. My eyes will water. Oh, okay. Then no.

No, it doesn't bother me. No, no, no, no. Okay. I insist. Okay. You just want to sweat it out? I do want to sweat it out. And then I feel like maybe in about an hour, you're going to be like, you know what?

I am hot. I'm going to ask you to turn the fan on. That's exactly what's going to happen. That's what's going to happen on this podcast. You know, on this podcast, we don't waste time. We just get right to the stories. Yeah. And on that note, bring me what you got.

Yeah. You ready to talk about a trip to the movies? I am. I think you probably know this case. Hmm. Okay. Shout outs to Reporting for the Tampa Bay Times, Fox 13 News, and an episode of a little podcast called Court Junkie.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. They covered the trial on this. Very few jokes on that podcast. That is not. Yeah, there's zero. Zero jokes on that podcast. They're slightly more serious than we are.

It's a very serious podcast. All right. It started as a fun little day date. In January of 2014, Chad and Nicole Olson had been married nearly seven years and were very much in love. But since the birth of their daughter Alexis 22 months earlier, they had struggled a bit to find time together, just the two of them. So when Chad learned that he and Nicole both had the day off on Monday, January 13th. He lined up a babysitter and bought tickets to the matinee showing of the Mark Wahlberg movie, Lone Survivor.

What the hell is that about? Well, I'm going to tell you right now. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'll keep my pants on. Lone Survivor tells the true story of Navy SEAL Marcus Luttrell and his team as they set out on a mission in June 2005 to capture or kill notorious Taliban leader Ahmad Shah. That comes directly from the IMDb page for the film. Okay, very good. This movie was particularly appealing to Chad as he had served in the Navy. He had served active duty during the Gulf War and was deployed for

Operation Desert Storm. Born and raised in Illinois, Chad had settled in Jacksonville, Florida after retiring from the military in 1997, and he got into the finance business. He was working for Citibank in 2002 when he met Nicole, the woman who would become his wife. You didn't even mess that up. I did, because I was about to say the woman he would marry, but somehow I had it in my notes. I guess it didn't really matter. It did matter.

Wait, what the hell do you mean the woman he would marry? I thought you were talking about his wife. Nicole was painfully shy, beautiful, and kicking ass in business school when they met. She worked nights at the call center at Citibank, and it took her an embarrassingly long time to figure out why the tall, handsome guy who worked the day shift was visiting her desk each morning as she neared the end of her own shift. Didn't she know she was super hot? I mean, I think probably. Okay. All right.

But yeah. So Jed was a little older than her. He was 10 years her senior. She was 21. He was 31. All right. Finally, she put it together that he was flirting with her, and eventually she agreed to go on a date with him. They hit it off right away.

Why are you making that face? You don't like the age gap. It's my gorgeous face. What a rude thing to say to me. Yeah, you're 31 going after the 21-year-old? Quit sniffing around them kids. Nicole said Chad. I'm very sorry.

I should say I don't know this story, so he could very well be the victim, and here I am. He is. Oh, great. Okay. Fuck. Nicole said Chad always made her laugh in the most unexpected ways. Like when he confessed to her a few days after their first date that that night that he'd first taken her out to dinner was actually his birthday. That is funny. I never said anything. That is funny.

Yes. Nicole described Chad as a people person. He was sweet and thoughtful and playful with her. But she said it was the way he treated others that made her want to marry him. She said he would notice those little things that most people overlook, like if a neighbor got a haircut or if someone did a good job at work. And instead of keeping it to himself, he loved walking up and encouraging or complimenting people, even people he didn't know. He knew how to make people smile without even trying. And he just knew how to really love everyone and everything that he had in his life.

So Chad and Nicole dated for about five years. And then while they were on vacation in the Virgin Islands with Nicole's family in 2007, Chad took Nicole shopping for a wedding ring. They had already like discussed having a life together. And so it wasn't like some surprise or whatever. They picked out the ring together. She wasn't expecting some grand, you know, gesture. But that night at dinner in front of her family, he did get down on one knee and propose marriage to her. By January of 2014, Nicole was a manager with USAA and Chad was a finance manager at a dealership that sold ATVs and jet skis. So he had done like, I don't know, dirt bike racing and stuff when he was younger. And so this was very much like exciting for him to work at this company.

I'd be terrified, but. Well, they don't make you get on the thing. They might. No, they don't. Well, actually, yeah. I bet when somebody comes, you're like, you want a test drive and you have to sit in the passenger seat. Yeah. Cool as a cucumber.

That's right. The Olsens lived in a house they built when they first got married in Lando Lakes, which I bet their butter is amazing. Uh-huh.

Everyone, Brandi's so proud of that joke. It's not even in my notes. Oh! Oh my gosh! Was that an improv?

How does she do it? And they were adjusting to life with a toddler. But as I mentioned, they were struggling to find time together in between all of that. So on Monday, January 13th, 2014, Chad took their daughter to the daycare at Nicole's work. It was one of the perks of working there. They had an in-house daycare. Nice. And then the couple headed out to a local mall where they wandered around a bit, did some window shopping.

And then they headed to the 120 showing of Lone Survivor at Cobb's Grove 16 Theater in Wesley Chapel, Florida. Wesley Chapel? Wesley Chapel. All right. About 25. How's their butter? I don't know anything about their butter. About 25 people attended that Monday matinee, including a nurse, an off-duty sheriff's deputy, and a retired police captain and his wife, Curtis and Vivian Reeves.

Nicole and Chad Olson took seats directly in front of Curtis and Vivian. The Reeves sat in the last row of the theater, and they were keeping an eye out for their son, who was supposed to be joining them for the movie. He wasn't there yet when the lights dimmed halfway and trailers for upcoming releases began to play. As the previews played, Chad Olsen took a moment to text the daycare and check on Lexi. That's what their daughter went by. Well, she was 22 months, so she didn't, like, probably choose to go by that. That's what they called her. Anyway.

As he was texting, 71-year-old Curtis Reeves leaned forward and told Chad to put his phone away. There are varying accounts from here about how this played out oh shit curtis reeves said he politely asked chad to put his phone away nicole olsen says he commanded uh that chad put it away and that chad had been annoyed by his brashness and told curtis that he was just checking on his toddler and he said something to the effect of the movie hasn't even started yet. Curtis claims that Chad told him to fuck off or mind his fucking business. And Nicole says her husband didn't use any profanity. But she does recall that he was clearly annoyed by the request.

She does recall that he was clearly annoyed by the request. When 15 to 30 seconds had passed and Chad Olsen still had his phone out, Curtis Reeves left the theater to get a manager, mumbling to himself as he left. When Curtis returned to the theater alone, Chad made a snide comment about Curtis tattling on him. And from there. I'm feeling so. And from there, an argument ensued. What are you feeling about? Well, you're telling me Chad's the victim here. And I think Chad's being an ass.

Oh, I think he's. Yeah, I think he's being an ass. OK. Yeah. All right. I didn't know if we were allowed to say it. Yeah, I mean, I think I think there are people who think that, like, the rules of a theater don't start

until the movie starts. I don't agree. Yeah, well, okay, so I think that there are people who think both ways. Yeah. Curtis clearly thinks that, like, the previews start, you follow theater etiquette. And Chad clearly thinks it's just the previews, the lights aren't even down all the way yet, I can be on my phone. I think it's a yellow light zone when the previews are on.

I think that's, you know, if you, oh shit, forgot to silence your phone, you go to silence your phone. But I also think if you see someone texting, then I would never say shit to anybody because I'm a coward. Yeah. But I do think if there was a time to say something, yeah, maybe say it before the movie starts so you're not disturbed. Yeah. I'm with the old man on this.

Okay. Oh, shit, is the old man the bad guy? I don't know, is he? Oh, Brandy. So he comes back. is he? Brandy. So he comes back. Chad makes a comment about Curtis tattling on him. And from there, an argument ensued. All of this happened in a matter of seconds. But as Curtis sat back down in his seat, Chad Olson rose from his and turned around to confront him. As he did, Nicole kind of also got up, and she turned around,

and she placed her hand on Chad's chest in kind of an effort to diffuse the situation. And words were exchanged between Curtis and Chad. I don't know exactly what they were. But Chad got upset, and he reached out, and he grabbed Curtis's popcorn bag from him. Oh. And he tossed it and he grabbed Curtis's popcorn bag from him. Oh. And he tossed it in his face. In the old man's face? Yes.

And as he did so, Curtis Reeves, who was a retired Tampa police champ. Police champ? Stop it. Who was a retired Tampa police captain and co-founder of the city's first ever SWAT team reached down, pulled out his handgun. Oh, my God. And shot Chad Olson in the chest. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Oh, no, I've never heard this story. You haven't. No, this is terrible. Yes, no, I've never heard this story. You haven't. No, this is terrible. Yes, it's horrible. Chad staggered into the aisle and said something to the effect of, I can't believe you shot me. Holy shit. And then he fell to the ground. His head came to rest on another moviegoer's shoe.

Oh, my God. Nicole stood screaming. The bullet had gone through her hand before entering Chad's chest. Her ring finger was nearly severed by the shot. Oh, my God. People in the theater rushed to her aid. The off-duty police officer that happened to be in the theater that day as well, he ran to Curtis Reeves. He took his firearm from him and secured it.

The Reeves' son, Matthew, had entered the theater just as his father had fired his gun. He ran to Chad's aid. He, too, was a police officer. Oh, my God. And he said his training and his instincts told him that Chad needed help. Yeah. At 1.30 p.m., a call came over, like, the police radio. Someone called 911 and said that someone had been shot at the theater.

They actually, like, sent out a mass response. They were prepared for, like, a mass casualty situation. They thought there had been, like, a— Well, when you hear shooting at a theater, you don't assume this scenario. No, absolutely not. In America anyway. Yeah. Chad and Nicole Olson were lifelighted to local hospitals. Some articles say they went to different hospitals. Some say they went to the same hospital. I don't really know that it matters, but they were lifelighted to hospitals. And doctors performed emergency surgery on Nicole's hand, and they were able to save her finger. She doesn't have full functionality from it, but it is still attached.

But Chad Olson died that afternoon. Yeah. Back at the theater, Curtis Reeves was questioned and he told police about the altercation. But he also added that he believed Chad Olsen had hit him in the face, possibly with his fist, or perhaps he had thrown his phone at him before throwing the popcorn. Chad's phone was found on the floor of the theater, kind of in front of Curtis's seat. Wasn't that because he probably dropped it? Yeah, most likely. And no one else saw this. No one else in the theater had seen this additional step. No one else corroborated this story.

No one else saw a punch or a throw of any kind. Curtis Reeves told the officers at the scene that he feared the younger, taller, stronger man was going to attack him. No. He feared for his life. He believed in that moment it was his life or Chad's. And he was left with no choice but to shoot. No. No, no, no, no, no.

Now, granted, that younger man was being an ass. Yeah. And he hurt your pride. Yep. And, yeah, he was a total asshole for throwing popcorn. Yeah, he was an asshole. Yep. Yeah, it was an asshole move.

But, no, you weren't afraid for your life. No, very afraid for his life. No. It was his life or Chad's life, and he had to make a split-second decision. his life or Chad's life and he had to make a split second decision. Well, if that's the case, you shouldn't have a gun on you because you're really bad at making split decisions. Yeah. Can you believe this?

Yes, I can. I know, right? Yeah. That's the really sad part is that, yeah, you can believe it. This is why I don't say anything when someone's texting in a movie theater. Instead, maybe I huff. Maybe I whisper something to Norm. Can you believe those people still have their phone out?

This is clearly a yellow light zone. Wow. Yeah. Curtis Reeves was arrested that day and he was charged with second degree murder for the death of Chad Olson and aggravated assault for injuring Nicole Olson. Yeah. Initially, Curtis Reeves was denied bond and ordered to be held in jail until trial. Sure. Following the news of this shooting, so this made national news, two other parties came forward and said that they had had altercations with Curtis Reeves at the movies before.

At the movies specifically? Specifically at the movies. What the fuck is this guy's deal at a movie theater? He's the movie police. Well, literally. Yeah. God, what are you talking about? I mean, that's what people said.

Like, so this couple came forward and they said that they had been at a movie theater and they had been texting during the previews and that Curtis had come up and told them to put their phones away. And he'd been, you know, very rude about it. And then they had their like nine-year-old son with them at the theater. And he had been, like, shifting in his seat. And Curtis had been upset about that. He'd made a comment to them about that. God, Curtis, watch a movie at home. At one point, the woman had gotten up to go to the bathroom.

And Curtis followed her out of the theater. What? But hadn't done anything. That's so weird. It's so weird. It's so weird. Also, when you're following someone out of the theater, you lose your whole argument about, oh, I'm just trying to see the movie. Mm-hmm. You're being a total fucking weirdo.

Yeah. Another man came forward. Can this guy just not handle that he's retired? Is that the deal? He has to be in charge? Probably. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

He'd spent his life. So he had been in the military as well. He'd been in the Navy as well. He'd then been a police officer rising to the rank of captain for like 27 years. And then he'd retired from that. And then he'd been the head of security at Busch Gardens. So until his retirement. And so, yeah, he was an authority figure.

And I think he loved being an authority figure. Yeah, so when Chad threw popcorn at him that made him feel small and he's not okay with feeling small. Correct. Also that was probably like $10 worth of popcorn. I mean

probably more than that, right? That's what I'd be upset about. You would? I'd be like, you owe me money! Not that it matters, but he and his wife did have a routine. She would bring a Ziploc bag and pour half of the popcorn in the Ziploc bag. She would eat out of the Ziploc bag and Curtis would eat out of the bucket. So it was only half a bucket of popcorn. How often did these people go to the movies?

I think they went to the movies a lot. Yeah, evidently. Okay, so what did he do to to the movies? I think they went to the movies a lot. Yeah, evidently. Okay, so what did he do to this other guy? Oh, so this other guy came forward. He called the police after this had happened, after the news of this broke, and he said that he had been at the theater on a date and they had sat in the last row

and that he admitted that he and his date were kind of quietly discussing the movie as it was going on and Curtis had come up and had been very agitated and had basically told them to shut the fuck up he doesn't remember if he used that harsh of language right right but yeah yeah yeah which I mean people talking in the movie yeah that's it's terrible movie etiquette yeah But so this was... Shoot him on sight, you say. No, that's not at all what I'm saying. This is so bizarre.

Yeah. Goddamn, but it's also not bizarre. No, it's not. Ugh. Yeah. So these two people come forward with these other accounts. Nothing that had ever risen to the level of violence, but he had been abrasive with other moviegoers. This seemed like this was his deal.

This was his deal. He was the movie police. Initially, he was denied bond, but he was pissed about that. And so he fought and appealed and appealed and appealed that over and over again. Judge Pat Siracusa was initially assigned to this case and he denied Reeves' bond several times. But finally, it rose to the level of appeal that an appeals court overturned that decision. And in January of 2014, Curtis Reeves was granted a $150,000 bond. He would have to remain home on house arrest and wear a GPS monitor as the terms of that bond.

Okay. And, of course, he was ordered to have no contact with Nicole Olson. Also stay the hell away from the movie theater? I think that he was allowed to go only to doctor's appointments, the grocery store, and church. Okay. Yes. Yeah. This process took about six months, this appeals process over the bond,

and then it appeared that this trial was about a year away. But boy, were the prosecutor and the defense wrong about that. Everybody was on that same kind of timeline. This thing would get dragged out for years and years and years. Why? Eight years of delays. Well, I'm going to tell you why. He had friends in high places? I mean, I think that's part of it. Yeah.

Yeah. I think that's part of it. I think he knew how to work the system. Absolutely. And he got what he wanted. He's out on bond. So, yeah, delay the trial as long as possible. Mm-hmm.

So the first delay started with that judge, Pat Syracuse. So in January of 2015, he gave this speech from the bench saying that the trial system is not perfect. He said, perfect is tough. You're not going to get perfect. We're going to get as close as we can, but I'm not going to wait forever. So he was directing these comments at attorneys on both sides. Both sides had requested to delay this trial until January of 2016. And the judge was like, we've got to move this thing along. Like we're just seeing delay after delay here.

long. Like we're just seeing delay after delay here. And the judge said at that point, he said, I'm going to be unreasonable from this point forward. I might as well put that on the record from this point forward. I'm going to be unreasonable. The judge, the judge said this. OK. And then a week later, he recused himself from the case. I mean, yeah, once you've flat out said you're going to be unreasonable. Yes. Okay. But one of the biggest delays in the case came from a 50-page motion filed by the defense in October of 2015, where they sought immunity for Curtis Reeves, citing Florida's stand-your-ground law. No. No. Ugh.

Yeah. Go to hell. Mm-hmm. In that motion, the defense said popcorn was flying when Reeves... Oh, no! Yeah, and then Curtis was hit in the face by something, a fist maybe, or most likely Chad's cell phone, which had an Otterbox case on it. Oh, well, that's basically a grenade. Okay, this is what they say.

That phone weighed in at six ounces, the same weight as a cue ball. It had to be considered a deadly weapon. So here's what's interesting about that. There's no proof that that phone ever hit Curtis. No injuries were photographed on Curtis as far as I found. And they actually tested the phone and the case for Curtis's DNA was not on there. Yeah, because you probably wouldn't throw your own phone. No, no.

I am sure the phone ended up on the floor because Chad dropped it when he was shot in the chest. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, how does this defense attorney not feel super stupid trying to add drama to this moment? Popcorn flying everywhere. So most of this part of this comes from Fox 13 News, and they had an attorney and legal analyst, Anthony Rickman. It's called analyst. It's not. Look into this case. He was not involved in the case in any way, but he reviewed the motion and explained what the defense's arguments were. So he spoke about this like from Curtis Reeves' point of view. He said,

I had to use force that was necessary to save myself and protect myself. And I used that force by shooting Chad Olson. So the stand your ground motion laid out what they say was behind all of Curtis's actions from his reason for carrying a gun to his reason for fearing for his life. So his reason for carrying a gun, according to the documents, was former and current law enforcement officers are allowed to carry even when they're off duty. So he's used to carrying a gun as a former law enforcement officer. And so as a retired law enforcement officer, he still feels most comfortable carrying a gun for his own protection.

Well, and I assume Florida you can conceal carry, right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, OK. Yes. So that part, OK. Yeah. And worth noting, the off-duty sheriff's deputy who was in the theater that day as well just catching the movie he also was armed

he had a gun on him as well yeah no the idea that people people would be armed at a movie theater not really super surprising to me what if the movie theater has a no guns allowed policy and they've got one of those fancy stickers on the front window. I think the type of person who feels the need to walk through life with a gun attached to their hip doesn't care about that sticker. Yeah. I wish they did care about that sticker. I don't think they do, though. Correct. I would agree. The motion talked about testimony from the lead detective on the case who admitted that he also carries a gun when he's off duty. And then they went into the Olsen's phone, which weighed six ounces.

You know, same as a cue ball has to be considered a deadly weapon. The legal analyst that they had look into this, he said from the stand your ground point of view, he felt like Curtis Reeves had somewhat of an argument. No, I completely disagree. Yes, I don't think he had an argument at all. No. Three years after the shooting, there was a stand your ground hearing and the defense got to make its case for Curtis Reeves argument that he was standing his ground that day in the theater. for Curtis Reeves' argument that he was standing his ground that day in the theater. And Curtis Reeves testified at that hearing. He said Chad Olson scared the hell out of him.

This is his testimony he gave. He said, I'm leaning all the way back in my seat, as far away as I can go, as far away as I can get away from him, and suddenly he's on top of me. He hit me with his fist or with something on top of you i think he had his cell phone in his hand because i saw the blur of his screen they did play some surveillance footage from the theater it's really grainy it's difficult to see and it matches with the basics of this uh you know, Curtis leans forward, says something to Chad. They clearly have some kind of back and forth. It does not show Chad like pouncing on top of him or anything like he is describing here.

Yeah, I bet it doesn't. Yeah. Because that didn't happen. It didn't happen. It didn't happen. And nobody else who was present in the theater that day said it happened. They all missed that part. Yeah.

Weird. It's interesting because even Curtis Reeves' wife says that she doesn't know what happened because when the altercation started, she got very uncomfortable, so she looked away. Mm-hmm. And then when she heard Curtis fire his weapon, she, like like moved down a bunch of seats. That's the weirdest reaction to me. I don't know what to make. I don't either. Nicole Olson also testified at this Stand Your Ground hearing.

This was her first public testimony in this case. She told the court that her whole world was shattered into a million pieces the day her husband died. And it was her retelling of the events, her testimony that kind of started to cast some doubt on Curtis Reeves' version of what happened. People had to have been doubting it before this. I imagine they were. Yeah. She said that Curtis was rude when he leaned forward. He said he was very polite and was like, hey, can I get you to put your phone away? No. And she said that's not at all what happened.

He gave a command to Chad. And it was the fact that he gave a command to Chad that pissed Chad off. And she said that she didn't even think that Chad was mad. He was annoyed. And other people gave that same testimony. They said he never seemed angry or aggressive. It was clear that he was very annoyed by this person who thought that they had some authority over him.

Yeah. Yeah. Nicole said it felt demanding and like an order. His whole demeanor, his whole presence, the whole tone, everything about it did not sound friendly. And Nicole said that her husband wasn't friendly in response either. She said he was very matter of fact. He said, what's your problem? The movie hasn't even started yet.

Nicole said that she and Chad saw Curtis leave the theater. And when he came back, he said something to the effect of, I see you've put your phone away now, to Chad. And that's when the whole thing escalated. Yeah, that's obnoxious. Yeah. Yeah. And that's when Chad said something to the effect of, so you tattled on me. You're trying to get me kicked out of here. Something like that. That's the exchange that happened right before this really escalated. And Nicole said she remembered sitting there and watching this thing escalate and being like, this is so not a big deal. This should just be over. Like, this is not this is not necessary.

Should just be over. Like, this is not necessary. Vivian Reeves, Curtis Reeves' wife, also testified at the Stand Your Ground hearing. And she agreed that the moment her husband came back from complaining to the manager was when this whole thing turned violent. She said that Chad became angry. So it's interesting. She testified that she couldn't hear what Curtis said, but she did hear Chad say, you told on me. Who the fuck do you think you are? Her hearing is amazing. So she couldn't hear her husband who was probably right next to her but she could hear chat yeah cool she then said her

she was trying to be invisible as this altercation escalated and so she turned her head and eventually moved down a couple seats and she said on the stand she said believe me i'm very sorry that i didn't see what happened she did say that she did see some of it though oh which parts the parts that look good for her husband did see chad stand up and lean over her seat and move toward her husband. And she said she thought it looked like he was going to hit Curtis. But then she looked away. At this hearing, a clip of Vivian's interview with investigators immediately following the shooting was played as well. And she told investigators during that that her husband had been a police officer for more than 20 years before he retired and that during his entire time as a law enforcement

officer he had never fired his weapon. I don't buy that. She said so he must have really felt threatened. Is that true? Had he never? That I don't know. I know that's what she testified to. Okay. I don't I don't know if that's the truth. All right. I mean if he really never had, that is interesting. It is something, yeah, if that's true. Yeah. Okay, so this is all taking place in front of a new judge because the previous judge has recused himself. So Judge Susan Berthel.

Susan Berthel? Susan Berthel. Berthley. Berthel. B-A-R-T-H-L-E. We'll go with Berthel. Barthel. Barthel. B-A-R-T-H-L-E. We'll go with Barthel. Okay. She was residing over this.

Was she allowed to go home? No. It turns out she was presiding over this. Cool. And she wanted a first-person view of where this had happened. So she went to the theater. She sat in the last row of the theater. She sat in seat nine, which is where Curtis Reeves had been. She had the theater dim the lights and play the exact same previews that had been playing when

all of this took place. She said it was really important to see this firsthand, see where all of this went on. There was additional testimony from people who were in the theater that day, including that off-duty sheriff's deputy. His name was Sergeant Alan Hamilton. And he sat in the same row that Curtis Reeves was in. And he had a different take on it than Curtis's version of events. He said it was his wife, actually, that first noticed that there was a commotion happening in their row. And so he looked down. He said he saw a burst of popcorn into the air. And then almost simultaneously, he saw a muzzle flash and heard the gunshot.

And then he said he heard Curtis Reeves make a statement. He said he heard Curtis Reeves say, I can't believe what I just fucking done. Really? Mm-hmm. Both Curtis and Vivian say, Curtis says he has no recollection of saying this, and Vivian says she never heard him say this.

But other people say that Chad said, I can't believe you shot me. Yeah. OK. Yeah. A couple other people who are present in the theater talked about hearing this commotion start, seeing Curtis Reeves leave the theater, mumbling to himself. They said he seemed very agitated. Most said that they had seen the popcorn flying through the air and then heard the shotgun. One person said that they thought it happened almost exactly at the same time.

But, I mean, everybody kind of recalls it slightly differently, but along the same lines. This, a stand your ground hearing lasted two weeks. And after all of the testimony, Judge Barthel rejected Curtis Reeves' stand your ground motion. initial confrontation and that the fact that he left the theater and left his wife there meant that he wasn't scared of Chad. I would argue that the fear of Chad could have come later in the altercation. Yeah. But she she denied it and said this does not meet the requirements of the stand your ground immunity law. This was further delayed because Curtis Reeves appealed that decision. But in May of 2018, his final appeal in that was denied and this case was sent to trial.

The judge set the trial date for February of 2019. But then there was some talk in Florida about changing the wording of the Stand Your Ground law. Well, that's not retroactive. So does that matter? Well, is it? The Supreme Court has to decide if it's retroactive. Oh, good Lord. Yeah. Pre-2019, the way that the Stand Your Ground law was written was it was the defense's burden to prove that you feared for your life. Right. OK. And in the rewording, it would change it to the prosecution's burden to prove that they did not fear for their life. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so the defense filed a motion to delay the trial until this was decided. So they did change the wording. They shifted the burden to the prosecution. And then this had to go through the Supreme Court to determine if they would make it retroactive. And they decided not to. It would only apply to new cases moving forward. Finally, they get a no-go on that. And so now it's time to get this trial going. But then COVID happened. Why am I always surprised by COVID happening? So the trial was originally scheduled after all of those delays for October of 2020.

And then it got pushed back to April of 2021. And then it got pushed back again to February of 2022. Eight years since the shooting. Man, this is someone who knows how to work the system absolutely nicole olsen was so upset by all of these delays yeah she's like he's just at home living his life with his family she gets to see his grandkids 79 yeah he's gonna well, rude. What's he going to do, Kristen? He's going to choke to death on some popcorn. And that'll be the end of him. In 2019, while all of these delays were going on, Curtis was hit with an Otterbox.

No, his attorneys did ask the court if he could remove that GPS monitor because it was really uncomfortable and he'd been wearing it for like five years at that point. Come to prison and we'll take it off of you. Yeah. And that motion was denied. The absolute gall. Seriously. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah.

You killed a man. Yeah. Yeah. You killed a man. Yeah. Yeah. So finally, this trial began Monday, February 7th, 2022 with jury selection. The prosecution knew that this was going to be, I mean, kind of a tough case.

They've got this guy who's claiming self-defense and he's almost 80 years old now. And they took a really long time with jury selection. And so did the defense so much so that four days into jury selection the judge was like you guys have got to wrap this up okay so who was the prosecution trying to get off of the jury pool i'm not sure how about the defense i don't i don't know either do you know anything not about jury selection i only know that it took way too fucking long and the judge was like i've've had enough of this. We've seen so many delays here. Yeah. Let's get this fucking moving.

Potential jurors, they brought in 80 potential jurors and they, you know, were asked questions related to everything from police, guns, the standard ground law, all of it. Yeah. the stand your ground law all of it. After four days when the judge was like okay wrap it up finally a jury of six was selected. I don't know why it's only six.

I think that's a Florida thing. They're so special. Four men and two women were picked as the main jurors and then three women and one man were selected as alternate jurors. Yeah. Runners up. Yes. They do pageant rules in Florida. Yes. Because they're also hot and tan.

Here's what I know about the jury, since I don't know what questions they were asked or who they were trying to get off of there. They were almost entirely white. There was only there was one Hispanic person on it. And their ages ranged from 22 to their early 60s. So the youngest man, he may have been an alternate. I'm not sure that he served on the actual jury, but he was like a little kid when this happened. Yeah. After the jury selection was made, the judge told everybody to go home, take Friday off, and they would start the trial on Monday, February 14th, Valentine's Day. Why does your face look like that? Okay, I'll tell you the truth. I keep

waiting for you to be like, but then he died. No, he didn't die. Okay. He was in a weakened state, but I think that was for... Well, isn't everyone at that age? Yeah, and I think that was kind of played up for the trial. He walked with a cane. Yeah, that's definitely to the defense's advantage because now he is probably shrunken down like a raisin. Oh, I was so scared of that popcorn. Yeah. Yeah, they really kind of played up his physical abilities and walking with a cane.

They had his wife testify, the defense did, about how he'd gained a bunch of weight and how he didn't get around as well, like ever since retiring from the police force

and how his health was really suffering. And yeah. She noticed that, did she? She did. I listened to it. There's a clip of this on the Court Junkie episode. And it's clearly the defense attorney that's questioning her.

And she's like, and he's like, so has your, since retiring from the police force, has your husband gained weight? And she says, oh, he's gained so much weight. Rude! Rude! God damn! What's her name? Cheryl Vivian. Vivian.

Bust open those Oreos, Vivian's gonna know. Yeah. During opening statements, the prosecution laid out the series of events that have unfolded. I already told you all of that. I'm not going to tell you again. Absolutely not. And then they talked about how it was Curtis who initiated the conversation and then continued to engage with Chad when he came back in to the theater. They talked about how in his initial statement to the police, how Curtis Reeves had said, you know, Chad Olsen had climbed over the seats and was practically on top of them. And then they played this grainy surveillance video and how that part of it just didn't match up.

The basics of the story do match up. I mean, but that scene, that that display of Chad leaping over the seat. They had a confrontation. Yes, there was absolutely a confrontation, yes. But Chad was never on top of Curtis. He never leapt over the seat. He did reach out and grab his popcorn and throw it in his face. Absolutely.

Very rude. It is absolutely rude. But, yeah. But, yeah, if a young man had leapt over a seat and was on top of a 70-year-old man, people would have noticed that. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. I think Vivian would have caught a peep of that. Yeah. During their opening statements, the prosecution talked about Curtis Reeves' physical abilities, his fitness. They said when he was in the theater, he did not use a cane. They showed the video of

him walking very easily out of the theater to go get the manager and that he had 20-20 vision with his glasses. He did wear glasses, but with his glasses, he had 20-20 vision. And that when the shooting did happen, he was able to move very quickly. He pulled out his weapon and he lunged at Chad. That is clear on the video. They also played a bit of audio in court where Curtis Reeves was talking to detectives pretty shortly after the shooting. And he said, if I had to do it over again, it would never happen. I wouldn't have moved. But you don't get do-overs. Now, that's interesting.

Why did he say that? Because he shouldn't have shot and killed a man over throwing popcorn. Is that him admitting, oh, I wasn't really in danger? I think it is. Yeah. To me, that sounds like I was being a hothead. Yes. Yes. I can't believe I did that. I think that's exactly what it is. Yeah. The prosecution called basically all the witnesses that I've already told you about. And then they also called the lead detective in the case to talk about how they process the scene and all of that. And the defense did a good job with kind of shedding some doubt on how this had been processed. So they cross-examined the lead

detective on the case and he admitted that he did not treat this as a self-defense case in the initial investigation. He didn't have experience with a self-defense case in the initial investigation. He didn't have experience with a self-defense case. He didn't maybe know that that's how he should have been investigating this case, which maybe worked in the defense's favor. The defense really focused their case on showing that Chad was younger. He was 43. He wasn't super young, but he was 43, much younger than the 71-year-old Curtis Reeves. He was tall.

He was 6'4". He was in very good shape. Quit trying to turn me on. It won't work. I'm a professional. And that Curtis's background in law enforcement, as I said, he was a retired police captain. He'd founded the SWAT team. He'd worked as the head of security at Busch Gardens.

It meant that he was better equipped than anybody else in that theater, anybody else in that courtroom to assess threat. anybody else in that courtroom to assess threat. Maybe not, though. Yeah. You can be in a line of work and not be any fucking good at it. Absolutely. But if you're not any good at it, you're going to race to the rank of captain and found the SWAT team and be the head of security. Yeah, I think that's totally possible because if you're gung ho and someone insulting you leads to you killing them.

Yep. Then maybe you're a fucking hothead who loves violence and just lives for this shit. Yeah. Yeah, it's possible, right? Yeah. Yeah. Also, this thing about Chad being younger and taller and in shape, I mean, okay. Yeah.

Don't we all encounter people? I'm going to shoot every last one. Anyone hotter than me no it's it's yeah he was clearly fearing for his life because this man was so much taller so much stronger so much well then why did you initiate a confrontation with this man? Exactly. If he's so scary looking. Exactly. I think the strongest argument the defense made was based on Florida law. So based on Florida law, an attack on a person over the age of 65 is a felony. Oh, wow. what is a felony oh so by throwing the popcorn at curtis reeves chad olson had committed a felony shut up so that constituted why all the old people moved to florida yeah for that sweet probably so

that constituted a real threat a threat that put curtis reeves in fear of his life okay no no um that's very interesting i had no idea i didn't know about that either wow but no you're not in fear you're not thinking you're going to die because someone. All right. Yeah. To combat this, the prosecution argued that given the dangerous situations, the former police officer must have tackled in his career. It was unrealistic for him to feel afraid at such a minor altercation and to consider it a threat significant enough to shoot Chad Olson. Yeah.

Yeah. His extensive law enforcement training should have allowed him to assess this situation and know that this was not a life or death situation. Also, aren't we always told that their training is to de-escalate situations? Yeah. And he did the exact opposite. He didn't de-escalate any of this. No.

No. Because I submit, this dude loved a confrontation. Yeah. The trial lasted for nine days. Wow. After all these delays, it was only a nine-day trial. Nine days. Nine-day trial. And then the jury deliberated for less than three hours.

What do you think they found? They had to find him guilty. They did not. Are you serious? They acquitted him on both charges. Second-degree murder. Oh, my God. And aggravated assault. Holy shit. He was acquitted him on both charges, second degree murder and aggravated assault.

Holy shit. He was acquitted. Can you fucking believe that? No. Holy shit. They bought his self-defense claim. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Nicole, my God. Yeah. Nicole was devastated. She could not in a million years believe. No. Like, she thought there was just no chance of that. Of course not. That's what I was thinking, too.

It's like, okay, he's going to delay, and that's fucked up. But, like, once the trial starts, what is there to talk about, really? Yeah. So he was just completely acquitted and free to go this is unreal yeah following his acquittal he sat down with abc news didn't interview off and he maintained that this was not his fault said, I wish that none of this would have happened at all. But I don't I don't feel like an instigator.

What was in my mind was that he was either trying to hit me or he was trying to come over the seat. He said it was something that was that I had no control over. He was the only one who could have kept this from happening. Oh, my God. Certainly, none of us, and I'm sure both sides of the family, of the families, none of us wish that it had happened as it did. Okay. Well, yes. Nobody wishes that this had happened.

Very good. Wow. We've all got some common ground. Yeah. You're talking about a young father. Mm-hmm. Yeah. The father of, what, a two-year-old?

Yeah, a two-year-old at the time. Yeah. Saying you had no choice. No choice. I had no choice. He also made this statement about how people need to stop being so hostile with each other just as society. Oh! Mm-hmm.

Okay. That's the lesson that should be learned from this. Oh, all right. Oh, my God, I can't. You fucking shot someone. You killed a man who threw popcorn in your face. Mm-hmm. Vivian Reeves was present

while her husband did this interview and she made a brief statement as well. She said she's very sorry for what happened and she said that she prays for the Olsen family and that she wishes them well and that she hopes Nicole finds someone else to share her life

with. Ew. Yeah. Nicole made a comment based on that. She said she did not watch that interview, but her friends told her about that comment. And she said it made her blood boil. Yeah. She said, you guys took everything from me and my daughter. And now you just want me to find another nice man and just move on yeah

oh that's so gross yeah that's one of those man you could have could have stopped that thing one sentence earlier and been just been just fine exactly yeah i'm so sorry and i pray for them every day yep that's all you need yep n. Nicole was obviously unhappy with the court's decision, but she has decided to focus on living her life with her daughter. They have started the Olson Family Foundation, which provides monetary and medical assistance and tuition for children affected by gun violence. and tuition for children affected by gun violence. This is largely funded by settlements Nicole received for suing Curtis Reeves for wrongful death and for suing Cobb Theaters for negligence. Both were settled out of court for undisclosed amounts. Okay.

And that's the story of a trip to the movies. Oof. Yeah. You really didn't know this case? No, I didn't. Did not know it. There's too much gun violence in America. I remember when it happened.

Yeah. And I was like, oh, I'm going to look that case up. I'm going to do that case. And I didn't know that it had spread out this long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I did not know he had been acquitted. That blew my fucking mind. That is shocking. Yes.

I hated it. My, this, What? My guess is that this is the exact defense that they're going to use in the Ralph Yarl case. Ew. Ew. But Ralph Yarl didn't even do anything to that guy.

Well, he rang a doorbell and then maybe he had his hand on the glass door. Oh, God. Yeah, they're going to say some shit. They're going to say that he was an elderly man. He was in an enhanced state of fear because of his vulnerability. Good grief. Mm-hmm. Anyway, that was terrible.

Yeah, thanks a lot. You're welcome. Oh, come on. That was a Kristen case, though. Just once, I'd like you to do a light one. And you know what we're going to do now? An ad. Do-loo. And now we're now? An ad. Do-loo.

And now we're back from the ad. Do-loo. Oh, Brandy, Brandy, Brandy. Are you familiar with this case I'm about to tell you? Okay, I am not, but intentionally. Oh, you've been avoiding it, huh? People have been sharing it and asking you to cover it. And so I was like, I'm not going to read it.

But it seems very interesting. This is like, it's the weirdest, wildest story. You are not going to believe it. Okay. I'm so glad that I don't know anything about it. But please believe it. I will. Because it's a true story.

Oh, okay. Ripped from the headlines. Well, because it was actually, yeah, in the headlines. Straight from the... You don't have to make me feel stupid. People always make fun of the beautiful philanthropist, which is what I am. Are you? which is what I am.

Are you? Anyhow, some shout outs are in order, don't we think? Absolutely. First of all, a segment of 60 Minutes. You know what? I'm going to do that thing I do where I tell you some stuff, but I'm not going to tell you the titles of some of the stuff. Yeah, that's great. All right.

Also, okay, an amazing article in Boston Magazine by Mike Damiano. Oh, sure. Uh-huh. Yeah. I thought you were going to say Mike DiPasquale. Why? Who's that? He's a local attorney.

Oh. No. No. This is a different fella. Okay. Turns out there's more than one Mike in this world. Wow. I don't like it either.

The more you know. But here we sit. Yeah, that was a very good article. Also, very good article in the New York Times by David Streitfeld. Yeah. Streitfeld. Sure. All right.

Is there an I? Yeah, there is. S-T-R-E-I-T-F-E-L-D. No, that's what I meant. After the F. Oh. So, no. It's probably Streitfeld.

Boy, and we condescend again. I was not clear on what I was asking. There is, in fact, an I in his last name. I now demand three compliments to reinflate my bruised ego. Okay. Your boobs look wonderful in that shirt. I'm loving the blonde hair. It looks amazing.

Thank you. Yes. Yes. One more. Don't act like you're trying to, you know, think real hard. And I think you're very beautiful. There we go. All right.

Well, here we go. Ina and David Steiner always loved a good yard sale. When they first got together in the 80s, they spent a ton of time going to yard sales and getting sweet deals on gently used treasures. Ooh. and getting sweet deals on gently used treasures. Ooh. And so in 1995, when they found out about this new website called eBay, they were super into it.

eBay? eBay. eBay. Okay. They thought eBay was such a cool concept. It was basically a yard sale on the World Wide Web. Wow. The only thing that kind of sucked was that it was 1995 and the average person had... Dial-up.

That, too. Also, they had no idea how to use eBay. People found it kind of intimidating. Could we trust it? I don't know. So Ina and David came up with an idea. They would create their own news site dedicated to e-commerce. They launched their site in 1999, and they called it Auction Bites.

Oh. Bites with a Y. Yeah. There's also an I in there, but it's in the word option. Yes, thank you. I know how clear you want me to be about where the eyes are. Yes, I do. My eyes are up here.

This shirt is a little bit lower cut than my usual fair. I was going to say. What's happening? Is this a whole new you? Yeah, branching out. What do you think? I love it. Thank you. I love it. You're practically nude. It's a little bit low cut and pretty form fitting.

Everyone, by a little bit low cut, you can't see anything. You can't see anything. It's a mock turtleneck is what it is. And it looks great on you. And by form fitting, I don't really, I mean, we get an idea of where your body is. Most of my shirts are pretty back.

It's a wild time in here today. It's a wild time in here today. They later renamed the site e-commerce bites. Oh, sure. Still the bites with a Y. The site did pretty well. These days they get about 600,000 readers a month. Oh. Yeah.

I wouldn't think that these days there'd be much need for e-commerce bites, but that's very... That it was rude. You're right. I apologize. Shows how little you know about the e-commerce bids. They talk about equip bids on there, do they? Just calm down. Okay.

Don't tell everyone about my website. Their tagline. You want Patty to bleep that? No. Their tagline is giving sellers a voice since 1999. since 1999. Mm-hmm. As you rudely pointed out,

e-commerce bites isn't a household name, but people who make their living on eBay or Amazon or Etsy tend to be frequent flyers on the site. Okay. That's flyers with an I. Ina, also with an I, does all the reporting for the website. She covers industry news and really focuses on anything that might impact sellers. David handles the business side. Okay.

They operate the website out of their cute little colonial home in Natick, Massachusetts, which is a suburb of Boston. Oh. Do they have Boston accents? Um, I didn't really think so, no. That's a real shame. I know. I was hoping we were going to get to hear you do it. You might be hearing some accents in this story.

There's not a ton to say about the Steiners. They've been married for more than 30 years, and Ina is petite and soft-spoken, and David is bald, but he doesn't have a beard, so keep your pants on. Okay. I just have to warn you sometimes. I don't want you to get all horned up, and then we can't podcast. That's right. I so often get so horned up, I can't podcast. Stop and, you know, wait a while.

So that's them. They're just a married couple with a small business. Nothing wild happening here. I mean, should we tell the people about how horned up you got over Norm's new haircut? Everyone. Norm got a new haircut. Yeah. He looks quite good.

He does. He got a summer cut. Looks nice. And that's when you get frosted tips. No. He got a real low fade. It looks very nice. Okay, don't get the listeners all worked up.

They've probably got work to do today. They might be in the car, you know, can't just pull over any old wear. Yeah, that's right. No time to call in horny. But then in the summer of 2019, things changed. By this point, the Steiners had been running their news site for 20 years. And David went outside and saw that someone had vandalized their new fence. They'd written Fido Master in black spray paint.

Fido like dog? All one word, Fido Master. Fido Master, okay. Like the dog, yeah. Okay. So that was weird. What does that even mean? Fido Master was the username of someone who commented on a lot of Ina's articles.

Oh. Fido Master was one of their top commenters. Okay. But David and Ina had no idea why someone would have spray painted that name on their brand new white fence. Yeah. Was this like a vinyl fence or was this a painted fence? Okay, here.

I am very confused because the Boston Magazine article, I believe, said that it was a white fence. But in the 60 Minutes interview, it looked like they had a wooden fence that was unpainted. So I don't know what to believe. Nor do I. So, you know, David and Nina tried not to worry about it too much. And for a while, nothing else happened. But then on the morning of August 8th, Ina logged into her email and discovered that she was suddenly subscribed to like 50 newsletters. Newsletters like Satanic Temple Membership. What?

Passional Boutique. Oh. Irritable Bowel Syndrome News. Cat Fairies. Cat Fairies? Sin City Fetish Night Newsletter. Oh. Vaping Post. Oh, okay. And my personal favorite, Vancouver Fetish Weekend. Ina was perplexed because she'd specifically signed up for a Vancouver Fetish Week day. Yep. That's a good joke. Then Ina got on Twitter and she discovered that multiple people were very mad at her.

One angry Twitter user was a fellow who went by the handle T-U-I-E-L-E-I. Wait. Hold on. I got to write that out so I can read it. T-U-I. Did I say I was ready? Oh, my. The sass.

Okay. T-U-I. Underscore. Uh-huh. E-L-E-I. Twee-ly. Twee-ly. Twi-ly.

Their avatar was a skull. Oh. So that's spooky. Yeah. This person was really mad at e-commerce bites. What were they mad about? They felt very strongly that e-commerce bites reporting was bad for sellers. It was sending people over to Amazon. E-commerce bites was hurting small businesses, Brandy.

E-commerce bites was hurting small businesses, Brandy. A fella by the name of TopSeller13 was also very mad. What'd he have to say? Well, first let me tell you about the profile pic. Oh, sorry. Black and white close-up of a pig's face. Oh, sure. TopSeller13 was pretty scary.

They tweeted, WTF? What's Ina's address again? Question mark, question mark. Guess I have to pay her a visit. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Well, that would be really scary. Yeah.

Yeah. The good folks at 60 Minutes refused to show us all of the tweets. They said some were too vulgar to share. They literally blurred tweets. Really? And I appreciated that because I too like to keep things classy. These Twitter accounts threatened the Steiners. They doxed the Steiners. And Ina and David had no idea who these people were or why they were so mad. Three days later, they got a voicemail from some dude who was like, yeah, hey, got a problem here. Can't deliver this wet specimen. Gonna have to find you another way to get this wet specimen. Wet specimen, you say? So Ina and David listened to that message and they were like, huh?

Yeah. So David called the guy back and was like, hi, what even is a wet specimen? Right. And the guy was like, oh, well, it's a pig fetus soaked in formaldehyde. Oh, boy. Mm-hmm. Somebody sent them a pig fetus? Tried to.

Wow. Ina and David were freaked out. Yeah! Ina knew that someone was obviously upset over something she'd written, but she couldn't imagine what it was that had pissed someone off so badly. I've read through some of her reporting. It's not like, it's definitely not clickbait. It's not anything wild. But it was clear this was escalating. So the Steiners called the police and an officer came out to their house to take the report and they told them everything. And as the officer was leaving, he was like, oh, look, you have a package. Here you go. And the officer and David stood around talking for a minute when while Ina opened the package.

And when she did, she screamed. The package was filled with what looked to be flesh and hair. Oh, my gosh. It turned out to be a pig mask from the popular and horribly terrifying film Saw. Yeah. Ina had not seen this film. Ina had not seen this film, so she Googled it and was very disturbed to learn that it is about someone who tortures people, and the last thing they see is that pig mask. Yeah.

She was also not a fan of the involvement of a tricycle. And that creepy clown kid that rides the bicycle. Oh, my God, I hate it. Fucking circles on his face. I have to admit, Ina did not mention the tricycle, but I myself. Have you only seen the first Saw film? Yes, because I was only dragged there because I was in college and like whatever. I do not need to see the other ones. I've seen every single one of them.

I'm sure you have. Multiple times. Multiple times? Yeah. Why multiple times? I'll tell you. Multiple times? Yeah.

Why multiple times? Well, I'll tell you. So I had seen most of them. Mm-hmm. Except for like the two most recent ones. And then I met a handsome man with a beautiful butt. And he asked if I would like to watch the Saw movies with him. I didn't know that Norman and you watched these movies together. I was referring to my husband, David.

Oh, my mistake. My mistake. And he asked if I would like to watch them with him, and so we watched all of them together. Oh, my God. And then, like, I don't know how long ago we did it again. We watched all of them. I like them.

I'll tell you. The later ones not real good, but Tricycle kind of breaks down, does it? You can only do the same thing over and over so many times. Yeah. Before that torture gets boring, right? There are

Okay. It cannot be that surprising to you that I like them. They're puzzles. Okay. So you guys, like, you put on a crock pot of meatballs and you start up the Saw movies. Is that what a night in your life is like? Yeah, we watch horror movies all the time. Oh, my God.

Our comfort movies are Midsommar and Hereditary. Oh, my God, your comfort. Yeah, that's when we don't know what to watch. We just throw one of those on. Oh my God.

I don't understand anything about you. Anyway, so they received this mask. Ari Aster has a new movie out. I can't wait to see it. Anyway, he's... Who?

He's the guy who did Hereditary and Midsommar. Okay. It's called Boa's Afraid, and I can't wait to see it. Anyway. Boa's Afraid? Boa is afraid. Boa's the name of a man. Baby.

Okay. the name of a man baby okay anyhow the native police initially thought that this was all a dumb prank i thought you said naked police for a hot second you know i did see these guys on 60 minutes they were fully clothed but i don't know if the 60 minutes folks ask them to put on clothes it's very possible it It is. Yeah. I'll just say, if you're walking through Massachusetts naked. Yeah. In the wintertime. Oh, yeah.

You're tough as nails. Well. I tip my hat to you. Mm-hmm. I'd do just that. You would die. See, that's your real horror movie. Yes.

Someone walking around naked. Yeah. It's not even somebody else. I don't care if somebody else walks around naked. Yes, you do. real horror movie. Yes. Someone walking around naked. Yeah. It's not even somebody else. I don't care if somebody else walks around naked. Yes, you do. No, I truly don't. Liar. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, mm, mm, mm.

I can call you out right now and I sing this song on Monday. This very Monday. Yeah. When Casey was on the podcast. Oh, yeah. She talked about how one time you guys stayed in a hotel room together and she wore shorts that were short to bed.

Yeah, and I shamed her for them. And you shamed her for wearing short shorts to bed. And she was like, hey, if you weren't here, I'd be buck-ass naked. You know what that is? What?

Jealousy. How dare you be that comfortable in such little clothing? Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Are you just now? Is this a puzzle? Yeah, I'm putting the puzzle together right now.

What did you think it was at the time? Well, honestly, really, the thing for me about somebody else being naked is my fear that they would be embarrassed. But if they're naked, they're not embarrassed. Maybe they are. Well, if they're choosing to wear that. I would be embarrassed. But if they're naked, they're not embarrassed. Well, maybe they are. Well, if they're choosing to wear that. I would be embarrassed if I was naked. If they're choosing to wear the short shorts in front of you, they're probably not embarrassed.

Right. I get how that works logically. The logic is not beyond me. Seems like it might be. The logic is not beyond me. Seems like it might be. So the Natick police. Oh, thank you.

Who were also buck-ass naked at the time, initially thought that this was all just a dumb prank. Is it buck naked or butt naked? I thought it was buck. Probably is. But it would make sense to say butt naked because your butt would be revealed yeah not my butt personally but yeah I got layers you think you're taking my clothes off there's just endless layers you're like a Russian Each version somehow more closed than the last. That's exactly right. But then things got worse.

A lot worse. Over the course of the next week, they received a box of live cockroaches in the mail. I would die. Oh, no, you'd die at this next one what's the next one spiders live spiders I would literally die yep

I mean you would probably have a heart attack yes but first a fart attack then you would die that's how I go. That would be the funniest way. I'm so scared that I fart

and then I die of fart embarrassment. That would be the way you would go. You'd be like, that was supposed to happen in the toilet. Oh my gosh. Some jokester signed David up for the barely legal edition of Hustler magazine. Oh, my gosh. The magazine featured eye-popping 18-year-olds, Brandy.

But the person had the magazine sent to a neighbor's address with David's name on it. So all of a sudden, one afternoon, David and Ina are just minding their business, and the neighbor shows up like, hey, got your porn here. Got your porn. Porn! Got your porn here! Red hot, barely legal porn! Hi, poppin' teens.

That's so gross. Poppin' teens. That's so gross. Honestly, I don't know what would shock me more. Like, getting porn in the mail or, like, realizing that they're still publishing a magazine in this day and age. Someone went on Craigslist and posted the Steiner's house as a place where you could go for a sex party. You know, day or night. No need to even knock.

Oh my gosh. They posted David and Ina's house on garagesalefinder.com and said everything must go. Initially, David was of the mindset that this was some weirdo on the Internet. This person or persons wasn't going to do anything. But then one day he received a package in the mail. It was addressed to him. And it was a book. It was titled Surviving the Loss of a Spouse.

Holy shit. A few days later, a delivery person brought them a funeral wreath. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. This is terrifying. It is absolutely terrifying. And I don't know why. So David mentioned this in the 60 Minutes thing.

I also think it's worth mentioning. This was a very nice, nice funeral. And somehow that does make it scarier. Yes. Like someone has invested. They spent real money on this. Yeah. Not a carnation in sight. Yeah.

They spent real money on this. Yeah. Not a carnation in sight. Yeah. So this was when David and Ina became just fully terrified. He was afraid he was going to lose Ina. He put up extra security cameras all around the house. They began sleeping in separate bedrooms.

They figured if someone broke in to attack them, you know, if they were in separate bedrooms, then hopefully one of them would be able to call the police or at least escape. Yeah. Ina put a laundry cart in front of the back door. She filled it with pots and pans, again, hoping, you know, okay, if someone breaks in, at least we'll hear them. Yeah. you know okay if someone breaks in at least we'll hear them yeah she began sleeping with a baseball bat under her bed david barely slept at all he stayed up most nights just watching the surveillance footage oh my gosh they were miserable yeah they barely left the house because as unsafe as they felt inside the house, they felt even less safe outside of it. Yeah. They couldn't shake the feeling that they were being watched. That's terrifying.

Mm-hmm. One day when David was installing a security camera on their roof, they saw a black van with New York plates slowly drive by their house. It could have been nothing, but it felt like something. Yeah. Later that day, a friend loaned the Steiners a car to just park in their driveway so that it would be harder for someone to kind of pull in and pull out quickly. Yeah. so that it would be harder for someone to kind of pull in and pull out quickly. So after the friend loaned them the car, David drove the friend back home.

And as they drove, David noticed that black van with the New York plates. It was following them. Holy shit. So David turns to his friend and he's like, you're going to think I'm crazy, but I think we're being tailed right now. David made a bunch of right turns. Sure enough, the van made every one. So they were being followed. But why?

Yeah. David sped up and managed to just get momentarily out of the van site. And at that point, David's friend jumped out of the car, hid in a bush, and when the black van reappeared, he took a photo of the license plate. I had goosebumps. Seriously. Holy shit. Oh, my God. Can you imagine?

No. No, I cannot imagine. This is absolutely terrifying. So, you know, they had a lead. They had this photo of the license plate. They gave that to the police. But this was all too much. Ina and David felt that their lives were in danger, which, yeah, of course you'd feel that way.

They didn't know if this was one person or a group of people. And even though they tried to figure it out, they still had no clue who was behind this. That evening, David had a panic attack. Ina initially thought he was having a heart attack. And she was honestly afraid of just like the thought of taking him to the hospital because she's like, OK, well, someone might try to attack us as we're doing that. Right. Luckily, David got through the panic attack and, you know, he was kind of just starting to calm down. And then at around 430 in the morning.

A strange vehicle pulled up to their house. Oh, my gosh. A man got out. It was someone the Steiners didn't know. David yelled to Ina to call 911. Yeah. And she did. David opened a window and shouted at the man,

The police are on their way! But the man didn't seem to care. He got out of his vehicle. He opened the back seat. He reached in. David yelled to him, what do you want? What do you want? The man didn't respond. He pulled what looked like a leather case out of the backseat. He approached the Steiner home, holding that case. And David yelled, stop it, drop it. But the man didn't stop. Instead, he wordlessly pulled two bulky square items from the case.

He set them down on the ground in front of the house. And then the man said, God bless. Then he got in his car and he drove off. What? When David, I haven't heard when he was sure the coast was clear. I mean, you're probably never sure. No. But eventually he went out, he approached the items.

They were pizzas. What? The mysterious man had been a pizza delivery guy who worked for a 24-hour pizza place. I was going to say, at 4.30 in the morning? Mm-hmm. Someone had sent them pizza. To fuck with them. Yeah.

And it had worked. It had scared the To fuck with them. Yeah. And it had worked. It had scared the shit out of them. Yeah. See, now, honestly, I get to that part in the story and I'm like, wow, it's a good thing David didn't have a gun. No kidding. Now, that is a story where you could, right? Yeah, argue that you were scared for your life.

And that would make sense to me. It didn't seem like the harassment would stop anytime soon. The police were looking into this, but that photo of the license plate ended up being useless. Part of it was illegible. Oh, shit.

And anytime David and Ina tried to investigate this on their own by, you know, they tried to do the thing of like calling up a company being like, OK, well, who ordered this? Who sent this? And, you know, of course, the companies wouldn't tell them. Yeah. David and Ina were growing more and more sleep deprived and more and more panicked. They were also really hungry. and more and more panicked. They were also really hungry.

They hadn't really left the house in a while and they didn't feel like ordering delivery for obvious reasons. So finally, David was like, okay, I have to go out and get some groceries. He called a neighbor and asked them to keep an eye on Ina and the house and then David took off for the grocery store. And it didn't take him long to realize that he was being followed again.

Holy shit. This time he didn't take any chances. He drove straight to the police station and as the vehicle that had been following him drove past him, David took a shit ton of pictures of that license plate. Yeah. And then he had another panic attack because of course. Of course he did.

David shared those photos with the police and that's what finally cracked this thing wide open. Sergeant Jason Sutherland, who was fully clothed at the time, ran the license plate. And the plate went back to a rental car agency. So he called the agency and got the name of the person who'd rented the vehicle. It was someone named Veronica Zay. Who the fuck's that? Exactly. Jason reached out to David and Ina and he asked them, do you know a Veronica Zay? And they were like, no. Who's that? Z-A-Y?

Z-E-A, but it's pronounced like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It didn't take long to determine that Veronica Zay was a 20-something-year-old woman

and she was a contract worker for eBay. eBay, huh? Mm-hmm. Ina and David were flabbergasted yeah they were absolutely mind blown was ebay behind all of this okay for the record aina didn't initially believe that ebay itself was behind this that was just too weird thought if anything, this was like one total weirdo who'd like gone rogue. Yeah. Sergeant Jason ended up tracking down the rental car to, of all places, the Boston Ritz Carlton. He walked into the lobby of the hotel and he called Veronica. He fully expected Veronica to come down to the lobby, you know, hand him a business card and be like, yeah, I'm from eBay.

We're doing an investigation. Yes, I drove by the house. Right. Here's what happened instead. What happened? So he calls Veronica. And she's like, oh, yeah, I'll come down after I have a conference call. And she's like, oh, yeah, I'll come down after I have a conference call.

And evidently handed the phone off to someone who claimed to be her husband. Veronica never did come down to the lobby. Instead, she ended up skipping town without ever talking to the police. What? Yeah. So that was pretty weird. Yeah, it is. Also, can you imagine the police want to talk to you and you're like, I've just got a conference call real quick. Yeah, let me just do this conference call real quick.

Super busy just putting out fires. I'm not good at prioritizing. Right. Meanwhile. Meanwhile. That's when you mean well. And meanwhile, Detective John Haskell with the Natick Police had done some digging on that funeral wreath. What did he find?

He discovered that it had been purchased using a gift card. And that gift card had been purchased from a grocery store that was less than eight miles from eBay's headquarters. Okay. They got surveillance footage of the person buying the gift card, and sure enough, it was Veronica Zay. At this point, Detective John was like, hold on a second here. We're in Boston.

They're in California. Somebody called the feckin' mayor. We gotta bring in the FBI. Boston. They're in California. Somebody called the feckin' mayor. We got to bring in the FBI. And so the FBI began digging into this weird situation. Yeah. They investigated for about 10 months. And here's what they found. This is this is so fucking weird. This is so weird. OK, here we go. Turned out that in April of 2019, Ina had written an article for e-commerce guides about the salary of eBay CEO Devin Winnig. The headline read, eBay CEO Devin Winnig earns 152 times that of employees. Wow. Yeah.

Nothing in Ina's article was factually incorrect, but as Lizzo says, the truth hurts. Devin was pissed. He did not like what Ina had written about him. He shared a link to the article with eBay's chief communications officer, Steve Weimer.

And Steve responded, we are going to crush this lady. In emails and texts, Devin went on and on about how much he hated e-commerce bites and how much he didn't like one of their top commenters, Fido Master. and how much he didn't like one of their top commenters, FidoMaster. Mm-hmm. Eventually it all came to a head, and Devin sent Steve another text about Ina. He wrote, Take her down. Holy shit.

Is there a more insecure person on this planet? No kidding. I don't get this. Wow. So, you know, Steve did. He reached out to eBay's director of, get this, global security and resiliency. His name

was Jim Baugh. And Jim responded, if I can neutralize Ina's website in two weeks or less, does that work for you? And Steve texted back, I want to see ashes as long as it takes, whatever it takes. Holy shit. Yes. Yes. These are top level executives at eBay. Oh my gosh.

They have so much fucking power. And they want to see ashes over this like little couple in Natick? Yeah! This is nuts! So, Jim Baugh got to work.

Worth noting, Jim Baugh is an odd dude, and if I may offer a critique, he ran an odd dude and if I may offer a critique he ran an odd ship. He took everything very seriously. He expected other people to take everything very seriously as well.

Uh huh. Working at eBay is like working in a war zone Brandy. Is it? Loose lips sink ships you hoe. For example, one time he noticed that someone had left a knife out on a barbecue grill at eBay. Uh-huh. Okay, what do you do?

Clean it up. Oh, no, it's a war zone. Here's what you do. You gotta teach people. So Jim, boom, grabbed that knife and stabbed a chair with it to prove a point that we can't leave weapons around because some nut might get a hold of them. Ugh!

What? What the fuck? Uh-huh. Pretty cool guy, huh? I don't know. I think we've all learned a lot. If you are worried about Jim's qualifications, do not be. He used to be in the CIA.

Says he? Says him? Says him. Well said, Frankie. Yeah, that's a fair point. Only he says that he was in the CIA. Also, his wife is currently in the CIA. Oh, sure. The CIA love connection.

Starring Chuck Woolery. Oh, my God. You know, I hear that the skills of a CIA agent are sexually transferable. Sure. Why not? Jim hired a couple of former police officers to be part of the security team. Jim hired a couple former police officers to be part of the security team. This woman, Stephanie Popp, who was kind of high up in the security division, became the mom of the security team. Jim and Stephanie like to refer to themselves as the mom and dad of the team because they were all a family. Yeah, that face you're making is appropriate because this is gross and weird. I don't even like it when companies say we're a family.

Yeah. Let alone, I'm your mom and this is your dad, Jim, who just stabbed his chair because someone left a knife at the barbecue. They offered a lot of great training for the team. Yeah. Brandy, let me ask you something. Okay, you're trying to train the security division at eBay. What kind of training do you think they need? I don't know. I would guess that the security division at eBay probably needs to to know about like cyber security hmm interesting

theory this was more of a movie based training system for example jim once showed the team the movie meet the fuckers he wanted he wanted them to all be human lie detectors he wanted them to all be human lie detectors? He wanted them to emulate Robert De Niro's character. Okay. Didn't even show him Meet the Parents. I know, right? Meet the Shockers. What? Jim really loved the circle of trust.

He wanted people to... Yeah, he wanted everybody in this circle of trust. Yeah, we get it. Jim showed the team other educational films as well. Such as? Such as American Gangster. Oh.

Lot to learn. Yeah. Lot to learn. Also The Wolf of Wall Street. Huh. Yeah, that's appropriate for a work environment. This will shock you, but there was evidently a lot of attrition on this team.

For some reason, people didn't stick around too long. I'm guessing that's because those fuckers weren't hardcore enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It got to the point that the security team was made up of mostly women, so they began calling themselves Jim's Angels. Okay. Or Dad's Angels, if you want to combine the earlier.

They called themselves Daddy's Girls. Ew. Stop. Is this not the weirdest, grossest workplace you've ever heard of? It's so weird. Okay, so then it's August 1st, 2019, and Ina wrote another article. In this one, she just reported on eBay's lawsuit against Amazon, which, you know, other places had reported on this. Amazon, which, you know, other places had reported on this.

I am going to read you now the portion of the article that really pissed off eBay CEO slash adult baby Devin Winnig. OK, here it goes. eBay's sensitivity to Amazon's recruitment activity may come as a surprise to merchants, given how long multi-channel selling has been a fact of life in e-commerce. But in an interview published yesterday, eBay CEO Devin Winnig demonstrated a lack of appreciation for sellers' desire to diversify selling channels. When Mark Steerer asked Winnig what he would want from German sellers if he had three wishes, he reportedly laughed and replied,

number one, stop selling on Amazon. Number two, stop selling on Amazon. Number three, stop selling on Amazon. eBay's CEO has been unable to stop a decline in marketplace sales, but trying to dissuade sellers from turning to Amazon and trying to get Amazon to stop recruiting sellers may not be the best tactic. Okay.

I can't believe she said that! Woo! Talk about roast! Oh my gosh! Am I right? I mean, is that not the calmest critique you've ever read? Yes. Well, Devin didn't think so.

33 minutes after that article went up, CEO Devin Winnig texted Chief Communications Officer Steve Weimer, quote, Chief Communications Officer Steve Weimer, quote, If you are ever going to take her down, dot, dot, dot, now is the time. And Steve responded, on it. Holy shit. Okay, so what do you make of those messages? Okay, so what do you make of those messages?

Well, I mean... What do you mean? I mean, that's proof of a plot. Yeah. I mean, I think those are extremely ominous messages. Absolutely. Yeah. More on that later. You know know so steve responds on it then steve texted jim aka dad aka former cia operative and said hatred is a sin i am very sinful gross why would

why are you talking dirty to daddy stop it stop seems like Steve wanted to be one of Jim's angels you mean daddy's girls

stop no none of that and Jim responded, amen. I want her done. Holy shit. This is. I mean, that sounds like he wants her dead.

I know. I know. Holy shit. It's extremely ominous. Yeah. Anyway, all this to say, how much power does he think is behind e-commerce bites? Yeah. I don't know, man. What the fuck? This is unbelievable. Yes.

So, you know, Jim's got this new mission. Yeah. So he called a meeting. Of course, it's at eBay headquarters. Why wouldn't it be? With all of his security staff. And he posted a map of Natick, Massachusetts on the wall. And he started the meeting by playing a clip from the movie Johnny B. Good.

Are you familiar with this film? I mean, I've heard of it. I've never seen it. this film? I mean, I've heard of it. I've never seen it. Okay, so evidently, I've not seen it. Some people harass a dude by delivering stuff to his house and sending a mail stripper, you know, the works. Yeah.

Then Jim shared a message from Steve Weimer, which read, I genuinely believe these people are acting out of malice and anything we can do to solve it must be explored. What? Yeah. He signed off that message with whatever it takes. A period after each one.

Yep. Yeah. I like that you picked up what I was putting down. Which were periods. So with what I believe is the very clear blessing of corporate leadership, this team of nutty idiots began plotting the demise of a sweet little couple in Natick. Brian Gilbert was a senior manager in eBay's security division, and he was a former police captain.

And he was the one who'd gone to the Steiners' home and spray-painted Fido Master on the fence. Okay, this is weird. Jim evidently had it in his head that, like, Fido Master was the alter ego. Was really them. Yes. Yes.

Making comments like keep the chat going. Yeah. Oh my God. Anyway. So he thought that that would really freak him out. Yeah. At one point Brian reached out to Jim and was like, hey, Steve said to burn her to the ground, correct? And Jim reached out to Steve, again, eBay's chief communications officer.

And Steve Weimer, eBay's chief communications officer, responded, quote, she is a biased troll who needs to be burned down. I'll embrace managing any bad fallout. We need to stop her. Holy shit. So, reading that, Jim then texted Brian, I've been ordered to find and destroy. Oh my gosh. I would be getting these messages thinking they want me to kill somebody.

Kill somebody. Yes. They are ordering a hit. Yeah. At the very least injure. Yes. I mean, eBay security team flew out to Boston to talk to this. I'm sorry.

To stalk the Steiners. I'm sorry, to stalk the Steiners. They didn't want to talk. They were not the least bit interested in talking to them. They harassed them online. At one point, a few of them flew out to Boston for the purpose of putting a tracking device on Ina and David's car. They didn't end up doing that because David and Ina kept it in the garage.

I didn't write this part down, but evidently the team went out and got some tools to break into the garage but decided against that. Holy shit! I know. This is madness.

They loved knowing how scared Ina and David were. They wanted to scare the Steiners so badly that they would stop publishing e-commerce bites. They also had a plan to, you know, scare the shit out of them and then reach out to them as ebay employees and be like hey we want to help you with this and you know essentially they could be the white knights yeah and maybe i know wouldn't have anything negative to write about ebay anymore but obviously that plan hadn't worked they'd been caught yeah and now the fbi was involved yeah because this is a big fucking deal They'd been caught. Yeah. And now the FBI was involved. Yeah. Because this is a big fucking deal.

This sounds made up. Yes. It sounds absolutely made up. If I saw this in a movie. I know. Yeah. You'd be like. That would never happen.

Yeah. Yeah. Give me a break. Yes. This Fortune 500 company. Mm hmm. They're a break. Yes. This Fortune 500 company, they're that worried? Right. About a little website? Seriously. Holy shit.

So now, with the FBI involved, eBay's lawyers began an internal investigation. I'm assuming to figure out how much shit they were in. Yeah. According to the prosecution, this is when Jim's team started trying to cover their tracks. They created fake dossiers on the Steiners to try to make it look like maybe the Steiners, you know, had done this to themselves. You know, they were wild folks.

Oh, my gosh. They tried to find someone local who'd made threats against eBay so that they could frame that person. Holy shit. Yeah. So they knew they'd kind of fucked up buying these gift cards around eBay. So they... Holy shit.

They wrote emails to each other being like, oh, my goodness. Did you all see these angry tweets about the Steiners? Well, I'm just just now hearing about this. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That cover up did not work. Yeah. In June of 2020, the FBI finished their investigation.

Ultimately, seven members of eBay's Safety and Security Unit, which included two former police officers, all pled guilty to stalking or cyber-stalking charges. Oh my gosh. They are Stephanie Popp, Philip Cook, Veronica Zay, Jim Baugh, David Harville, Stephanie Stockwell, and Brian Gilbert. Jim Baugh was sentenced to five years in prison. David Harville got two years in prison. Stephanie Popp got 13 months in prison. Stephanie Stockwell was sentenced to 24 months of probation. Philip Cook was sentenced to 18 months in prison with three years of supervised release. And Veronica Zay was sentenced to a year of home confinement. The last thing I saw on Brian Gilbert was that his sentence had been indefinitely postponed because he'd been diagnosed with cancer.

He might have passed away. I might have been looking at the wrong obituary. But the top executives, former CEO Devin Wig and Chief Communications Officer Steve Weimer faced no consequences. You're fucking kidding me. Oh, get a load of this. Devin Winig resigned from eBay in 2019. That same year, Forbes named him one of America's most innovative leaders, which, yeah, it's pretty innovative. Innovative is an interesting word to use, but.

He left eBay with a $57 million exit package. Holy shit. Is that not unreal? Yeah, that's insane. You get $57 dollars to go away he now sits on the board for gm and he was recently re-elected to the board and gm wants you to know that they think that all that cyber stalking stuff was regrettable um but he didn't do that stuff at GM. Wow. Uh-huh.

By the way, Devin says he's appalled by what happened to David and Ina. And, of course, he had no knowledge of it. And if he had known about it, he would have stopped it. But he didn't know about it. So stop asking about it. I probably shouldn't be making fun of someone who's such a big baby. You're going to get a saw mask in the mail now. Best case scenario.

Yeah. Chief Communications Officer Steve Weimer was fired from eBay. And he now runs the Boys and Girls Clubs in Silicon Valley. You're fucking kidding me. Can you believe that? No! Now, Brandy, you seem alarmed, and I just want you to know that he says his texts were mischaracterized. And he only found out about what those employees did after the fact, okay?

Explain them. Explain the text, sir. You said you wanted to see ashes. Yes. Whatever it takes. That is so gross. Holy shit. So far, eBay itself has also faced no consequences.

In a statement to 60 Minutes, eBay condemned the conduct of the former employees. They said they had cooperated fully with the government investigation. So, everybody go away. Na-na-na-na-boo-boo. Stick your head in doo-doo. Also, I'm burping a lot. I apologize. I would now like to read you a portion of former Massachusetts District Attorney Andrew

Lelling's interview with 60 Minutes about this case. Yes, please. Okay, so the interviewer says, the plan was hatched in eBay's headquarters in a conference room. It was paid for ultimately by eBay. Don't they bear any responsibility for this? Fuck yes, they do. I agree. Fuck yes, they do. But Andrew says they may. But cases are common where an employee inside a company uses company resources to do wrong.

In every one of those cases, it's not necessarily true that the company itself is responsible. Andrew also said that there wasn't enough evidence to file charges against Devin Winnig or Steve Weimer. And here's how that part of the interview went. Interviewer. Here's how that part of the interview went. Interviewer. But when he says or texts, I want to see ashes, whatever it takes.

Andrew. People say things like that all the time, especially senior people in companies. It's not the same as I am knowingly joining a criminal conspiracy to cyber-stalk a couple in Natick. People use loose talk like that all the time. What? Yeah, I'm like, okay, am I talking funny? I don't say that shit about people. Have you ever? No!

That's so weird! No! No! For the record, the Steiners and I think that is complete horseshit. Yes. David was like, look, if you have a dog that is trained to attack and you give the command, take her down, aren't you just as responsible for the damage that happens? Yes. Yes, the answer is yes.

Yes, David, you are right. Everyone else is wrong. So did they look themselves in the mirror we're getting there would you just hold on like literally two seconds okay the steiners view this as an attack on freedom of the press and they fear that other companies will use this as a blueprint to target and silence journalists i really hope that's not the case because this is cocoa bananas but anyway they're not putting up with that shit so in july of 2021, you know what they did, Brandy? They looked themselves in the mirror

and they said, let's go to court. They sued everybody. Yeah. Whatever it takes. Yeah, sue the pants off of fucking everyone. eBay, former CEO Devin Winnick, former Chief Communications Officer Steve Weimer, all the defendants

from the criminal case, plus Progressive Force Concepts, which is an independent security firm with a very stupid name. Force is all caps. It's an acronym. It's very stupid. Oh, okay. What does it stand for? I don't know.

I didn't bother. All right. Probably something like fucking only righteous. What else? I'll stop. Okay. I must admit that after watching their attorney on 60 Minutes, I am now in love with her. Her name is Rosemary Scappaccio, and we are running away together. I'm sorry to tell you this way, Brandi. This lady is no bullshit. She said,

if you're in the C-suite, it's your job to know what your employees are doing. How did you sit back and say you didn't know, especially when good things were happening and the share prices were increasing? They were all patting themselves on the back. We did that. We did that. But then when something like this happens, they turn around and say, we had no idea. We had no idea this was happening. She was also like, um, that dumb bitch, Steve Weimer, deleted evidence.

She did not call him a dumb bitch. Yeah, I assumed. She also said evidence correctly. I also assumed that. She said there was a notice that went out to everyone saying there was a criminal investigation. Preserve the evidence.

And he evidently deleted shit. She said that's obstruction of justice. If I did that, I'd be sitting in a jail cell somewhere right now. In their civil suit, they're obviously trying to establish that the higher ups at eBay are responsible for what happened to the signers. Fuck yes they are. They fucking ordered it. Yes.

They ordered it. They were smart enough not to say anything specific. But come the fuck on. Yeah. They ordered it. They ordered it. They knew. Yes.

Here's a paragraph from the court filing, which says that the top executives at eBay, quote, provided the other defendants with carte blanche authority to terminate the reporting of the Steiners by whatever means necessary, with defendant Weimer expressing, quote, I want to see ashes as long as it takes, whatever it takes. Defendant Weimer promised the defendants he would, quote, embrace managing any bad fallout if the plan went south, further directing we need to stop her. All of the horrific, vicious, and sickening conduct that followed was committed by employees of eBay and PFC while acting in the scope of their employment under the authority of and for the benefit of eBay and PFC. This civil stoot... Suit.

It's a stoot. Which is when you toot in a suit. It's a stoot. Which is when you toot in a suit. Wearing boots. Also, on a related note, the civil suit is currently ongoing. If you want to check out Ina and David's news site. Yeah. Obviously you don't because you bad mouthed it in the beginning. I didn't bad mouth it.

I just. You said, ew, poopy. You can find it at ecommercebites.com. With a Y. With a Y. And that is the ridiculous ongoing saga of the eBay stocking scandal. Can you believe that? They better get all the fucking money.

Did you say how much they sued them for? No, I don't know. Okay. All the money. It better be David and Ina's eBay from now on. Steiner Bay. Holy shit. I'm sorry.

I just banged my cup against the table. It was very loud. Yes. That is nuts. Yeah, so people have been tagging me in that story for a long time. And I remember reading about it several years ago and just being like, how? There's no way. And yeah, it's even weirder than you imagine.

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. You know what I want to do right now? An ad? Doodaloo. And now we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Should we now take some questions from the Discord?

I think we should. I think we must. How do you get into this Discord, Brandi? All you have to do to get in the Discord is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. Get in there to chitty chat the day away with other fans of this show. And then when we record, we ask for questions and then we answer a few. And that pretty much sums up what we do here. Labia Lounge asks, Brandi hasn't mentioned her best friend Dax in a while.

What's wrong? Yeah. Okay. Here is the story. I am not mad. Well, I am kind of mad at Dax, but not really. So Armchair Expert went Spotify exclusive. They got a whole bunch of money and I'm very happy for them about that.

I don't listen to anything on Spotify Spotify so I forget to listen to it. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's all it is. But I do miss my friend Dax. Oh my gosh. This is wonderful.

Balls Out wants to know how does it feel being a terrible person who wants time off work instead of giving us all your lifeblood? I assume you are referring to our upcoming break

in June. That's right. It's a good time to remind people. You'll be shocked to know I don't feel bad at all. I'm very excited about it. I have no guilt. Brandy, on the other hand, is also very excited and looking forward to it, but riddled with guilt. Feels complicated

about the whole thing. Oh. Coco Nuts wants to know, what day would your tornado siren drill go off in your area? In high school, it was every Friday at 12. As Midwesterners, we know this to be normal, but foreign exchange students would freak out

the first few times it would happen and wonder why we were not freaking out as well. That seems very frequent. Ours is just the first Wednesday of every month here. Every Friday seems. This person is wrong. A bit too much. They're mistaken.

I can't be right. Every Friday. That's the ringing in their ears. That's wrong. Megaronian. She says, Brandy, what is one word you are not ready for London to start saying correctly? I was so sad when my little sister stopped saying Lello and started saying yellow. Okay, so this isn't so much words that she says wrong, but she doesn't know the names for everything yet.

And so she just like describes them. Oh, my gosh. Okay, we went to the Royals game on Saturday. London's first Royals game. It was wonderful. We had the best time. As we were leaving, like in the car, in the parking lot,

we were talking about it, you know, Jack and London and David and I. And London was going on and on about something she saw at the stadium that she thought was so cool. And we were having the hardest time figuring out what she was talking about. She was talking about it shooting up in the air and all of this. Our stadium has fountains in the outfield.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so we're like, oh, are you talking about the fountains? And she said, the water volcanoes. Oh, that's so good. That's so smart. They are water volcanoes. They are water volcanoes! Oh, that's so good! That's so smart! They are water volcanoes. They are water volcanoes!

It was the cutest thing I've ever heard in my life. My personal favorite moment with those water volcanoes was when that drunk lady got in them. Yes! She did get in trouble. She did. But she had my support. Ooh, Hold On To Your Butts wants to know, any concerts you're super excited to go to this summer? I'm seeing Ghost and cannot wait.

Okay. I have mentioned on the show before that I am a huge fan of Dirty Heads. They are my favorite band. I've seen them, I don't know, at least a dozen times in concert. I see them every time they come to Kansas City. This year they announced their summer tour. And over a five-day span, they were going to be here and then in Red Rocks and then in Wichita. And there was a moment where I told David, I was like, let's go to all of them.

Let's just follow them on the road. Let's do it. And then I remembered that we, we like have two kids and jobs. And so can you stop? I think I'm adding to your story, really. And so, yeah, it occurred to me that probably my time of following a band around has passed, which is really sad. But I am going to see them here. Well, David and I are going to see them here.

And then we are also going to see them. We're going to travel to see one show. So I get to see them twice. I'm very excited. Yeah, the kids will be fine. Well, no, we arranged. Nah. If London is talking about water volcanoes, she's fine.

She'll figure it all out. Ooh, Eight Semesters of elementary education says, If Kristen rocketed to space via her butthole and something did get on Brandy, would you trash the hoodie or wash it and re-wear? Oh, I'd wash it and re-wear. What? Yeah. I wouldn't be that.

I'd take it off. If my shit got all over your hoodie, you wouldn't call it a day for that hoodie? Well, it depends. I guess it depends on the amount. If it's caked, no, that thing's going in the trash. I've got news for you, bitch. I thought it was just a little splash. If I'm squirting up into the air.

Uh-huh. Yeah, if it's covered, that thing's going in the trash. If it's just a little splash, overspray, I'll wash it. I would like to know. The hoodie I had on that day, it was not actually a hoodie. It was a sweatshirt that I got. It was a crew neck. It was. I got in Key West. And so I can't easily

replace it. Oh yeah, they don't have online shopping. I bought that at a $5 souvenir store. I bought that at a $5 souvenir store. I would really like to explore exactly how much poop could get on that sweatshirt before you'd be like, and we're done. Yeah, I feel like it'd be a lot. I agree. I think the threshold is pretty high.

Haunted Loaf wants to know, do you both wear sunscreen every day? Well, we know that I do because I have a whole routine. I spray myself down. What about you, Brandy? I do not put on additional sunscreen. I have SPF in my makeup, but don't i don't sunscreen anywhere else okay all right we get your vibe is that bad no the only bad thing is that you've got this glowing beautiful luminous skin and you put no effort in yeah just happens i don't put makeup on every day

well that's not skincare i put i disagree because you screamed at me and told me my hyaluronic acid that i put on under my makeup every day is skincare it is yeah that's my skincare okay that is skincare makeup Makeup is not skincare. No, and I wash my face every morning. I'm just constantly doing skincare. Oh, my God. Kiki wants to know what's worse, total isolation for 10 days or being in a small room with 100 people for 10 days? Oh, small room with 100 people for 10 days would be way worse for me.

Yeah. No question. Yes. I wouldn't love 10 days in isolation either. No, no one would. But, yeah, that is an easy choice for me. See, I kind of thought since you're more of an extrovert that you might choose the 100 people, get to know somebody real good. That's too many people. Lay on them, sniff them.

If it was like a room with 15 people for 10 days. Yeah, then that could be kind of fun. Yes, exactly. Yeah, 100 people, absolutely not. On that note, should we move on to Supreme Court Inductions? We shall. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. And then we will induct you into the Supreme Court. We're continuing to read your names and your first celebrity crushes.

Debbie Weeses. Shamar Moore in Y&R. What the hell is that? Shamar Moore. I know him from Criminal Minds. Okay. But Y&R is Young and Restless. Oh my god. I didn't know he was on Young and Restless. You really have to be knee deep in soaps to know that one. Okay.

Kania Warr. Stefan Udkel. Okay. Connie O'War. Stefan Udkel. Steve Urkel's alter ego. That is the second one of those we have gotten. Okay. We have to be on the wrong list, right? No, there's no way that two people had that crush. Okay, no. Stefan was hot

as fuck. Oh, really? Yes. Okay. Yes. Alright. I didn't watch that show. Sarah Basin. Doogie Howser's best friend, Vinny. I don't remember. I did watch Doogie Howser when I was little, but I don't remember Vinny. Vinny didn't catch your eye, eh?

No, I guess not. Giselle. Brad Pitt. Natalia. Mark McGrath. Oh, Brandy remembers him. I may have had many posters of him affixed to the walls of my bedroom. Parts of the posters were worn down.

Disgusting. Lindsay Rose. Christina Ricci. Jamie Abraham. JTT. Mandy Pants. Trent from Daria. Wasn't that a comic?

Yeah, it's a cartoon, but it's hot. Real hot cartoon. Amy McKeon. 1990 Chippendales calendar cover model Rick Dietz. I was only six, but I thought he was so hot. Kira. JTT. J.J. Ryan.

Jennifer Love Hewitt It was deep and it was real I am a gay man, friends Mikaelyn Damon from Vampire Diaries Malin Tommy Pickles from Rugrats Man, that's a baby

Okay, how do we get Malin arrested? Anne Herndon. Paula Poundstone. Erin. Mel Gibson in the first Lethal Weapon. Carolyn. Hugh Jackman. Kendra.

Victor Garber when he was in Titanic, Please Don't Judge. Yeah. See the captain? He's the please don't judge. Yeah. See the captain? He's the architect, I believe. Oh. Yeah. Odd choice. Yeah.

But I was told not to judge. Okay, so picture, he is also the skeezy lawyer in Legally Blonde. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think he's like, yeah, the architect. Yep, all right, yeah. Please don't ever tell me not to judge. Felicia Young. Jonathan Brandes.

Bailey Potter. Matt Damon. Stephanie Tackett. Cole Sprouse from the Suite Life of Zach and Cody. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you everyone for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media.

We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned.

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from a segment of 60 Minutes titled Silicon Valley Scandal. The article Take Her Down, Inside eBay's Stalking Campaign Against a Nated Couple by Mike Damiano for Boston Magazine. And the article Inside eBay's Cockroach Cult, The Ghastly Story of a Stalking Scandal by David Streitfeld for the New York Times. I got my info from reporting for The Tampa Bay Times, Fox 13 News, an episode of Court Junkie, The Washington Post, The New York Times,

CBS News, and CNN. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.