Let's Go To Court! - 257: A Drowning & a Shipwreck

Episode Date: May 31, 2023

Note: This is our last episode before we go on break! We’ll be back with new episodes in July, but if you can’t wait that long, sign up for our Patreon! The $5 level gets you instant access to 47 bonus episodes, plus the new content we’ll be making while we’re on break. Hope to see you there! Brandi starts us off with the mysterious death of Dee Dee Jackson. Dee Dee was at her boyfriend’s house late one night in 1994 when she passed away. Her boyfriend, Don Bohana, told police that she’d drowned in his pool after a night of heavy drinking. But that explanation sounded fishy to Dee Dee’s family. They said that Dee Dee had never learned to swim. She was terrified of water. There was no way that she’d willingly gotten in the pool that night. Then Kristin tells a dark, old time-y tale that made a big impact on the justice system. The crew of the Mignonette was probably doomed from the start. The yacht wasn’t built for long, arduous voyages, but the crew had been paid to sail it nearly 15,000 miles. So they tried. When a wave did irreparable damage to the ship, it sank in less than five minutes. The crew of four managed to get on a lifeboat, but with no fresh water and just two tins of turnips, they knew they couldn’t last long. After approximately 20 days at sea, they resorted to cannibalism. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “In warm blood: Some historical and procedural aspects of Regina v. Dudley and Stephens,” The University of Chicago Law Review “Regina v. Dudley and Stephens,” casebriefs.com “What’s eating me about this tale of cannibalism?” Western Daily Press The book, “Cannibalism and the common law: the story of the tragic last voyage of the Mignonette and the strange legal proceedings to which it game rise,” by A W B Simpson. “R v Dudley and Stephens” entry on Wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Jackson Family Mystery” episode 20/20 “Drowning in Lies” episode Accident, Suicide, or Murder “Man in prison for Tito Jackson's ex-wife drowning says she 'could swim’” by Enjoli Francis and Joseph Rhee, ABC News “L.A. Businessman Claimed Girlfriend Accidentally Drowned — But Evidence Pointed To Murder” by Joe Dziemianowicz, oxygen.com “The Mysterious Death In Michael Jackson’s Family — Delores Martha Jackson” by Shenbaga Lakshmi, Medium “People v. Bohana” findlaw.com “Neighborhood Spotlight: Pricey Ladera Heights, tucked away in the Westside, retains a sense of community” by Scott Garner, Los Angeles Times YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 47+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about a shipwreck. And I'll be talking about a suspicious drowning.

Well, that's weirdly themed. Yes, it is. Hmm. Hmm. Feels a little watered down. Ah. Ah. Everyone, today's a special day it is a special day and we should mention this at the top

of the show because we've been mentioning it at the end and not everybody listens all the way through the end so this is the last episode before our summer break we take the month of June off Brandy does not feel bad about it she's not worried about it she doesn't tie her self worth to before our summer break. We take the month of June off. Brandy does not feel bad about it.

She's not worried about it. She doesn't tie her self-worth to how much she works. So don't even try to guilt her about this. That's right. I feel awesome about it. Just picture her spending time with her family and like enjoying it some, but also worrying about you

and how you're doing with this podcast, not in your life that is accurate but you know if you want to keep this podcast in your life all you have to do is sign up uh for our patreon what's that well it's this thing where you get all kinds of meaty bonus episodes we have 47 bonus episodes that's right that's so many bonus so many bonus episodes and you know we've got other stuff on there, too. Yeah. Videos. And other stuff.

That's right, folks. We've got it all. That's right. Anything you could want is over there on our Patreon. Can you tell we're about ready to go on break? No, you can't. No, you can't. Because we're pros ready to go on break no you can't no you can't because we're pros we are pros in different area codes oh my god i knew you were gonna say that we do live in

different area codes and i mean you're a hoe now me rude i'm a good married woman still a virgin because of your husband's dare virginity pledge we both took a pledge and we don't have kids so i don't think you can prove us wrong Because of your husband's dare virginity pledge. We both took a pledge. And we don't have kids, so I don't think you can prove us wrong. But bam, facts and logic destroyed that feminist. All right, here we go. You ready for an ad? You know what?

I think I am ready for an ad. And now we're back from the ad. I'm ready for an ad. Doodaloo. And now we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. Brandi, please don't be so silly on our very serious podcast. I'm never silly.

I'm always very serious. I don't laugh at names like Dick. Let me tell you something. I'm quite thrilled to be going second on this very episode. You are? I always like going second. Oh, I like going first because then I can do the case. I know.

I know. You like to get it over with. I like to just sit back right away. I'm a procrastinator. Oh, okay. I am too, but. Evidently not. Anyway, go ahead.

Okay, shout out to an episode of my favorite Oxygen program. Accident, Suicide, or Murder? That or murder that's correct oh lord here we go and an episode of 2020 oh suck on that i like 2020 i know you do and you have bad taste i prefer dateline yes you do I didn't see a dateline about this case. I'm sure you searched for it. All right, here we go. Ladera Heights is an affluent suburb of Los Angeles. According to the Los Angeles Times, it's one of the wealthiest neighborhoods on the West Side. Why'd you make that?

Why'd you put your eyebrows like that? Because I haven't had Botox. No, I just, I was thinking like, okay, I'll be honest. When you started that sentence, I thought it was going to be like one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in Los Angeles, period. And I was like, wow, that's got to be really wealthy. And then the West Side. No, it's on the West Side. And the thing is, like, I don't know much about Los Angeles.

And the article capitalized West Side. So I didn't really know what that meant either. We're just two Midwestern gals doing our best. Anyway, Los Angeles Times went on. Knee deep in ranch dressing. That's right. Which is how we always podcast. They said that its median household income tops Brentwood's.

Really? Yeah, which Brentwood I've heard of and is a very fancy part of L.A. Again, you're just making big eyes. I'm sorry. Okay, well, first of all, thank you because I'm self-conscious of how small my eyes are. So thank you for that. No, but you know how I know of Brentwood? Why? The Brentwood hello.

What's that? Well, isn't that from like the OJ Simpson trial? Oh, I don't know. That's when you blow a guy to say hello. I might be halfway making that up. See, this is why I tried to keep it to myself. I tried, but you pulled it out of me like a Brentwood goodbye. Anyway, are my jokes so sophisticated that it takes me a second? Yeah, sure. Me a second. That's understandable. The Los Angeles Times also said that Ladera Heights

has an inventory of architecturally intact mid-century modern homes that is almost unmatched. Okay. All right. Fine. Blow it out your ass. Why? I mean, all right. See, Brandy, maybe this is why I shouldn't go second.

Maybe. Too many opinions. Too many opinions. Or one paragraph in. I know. I know. I'm going to talk about Ladera Heights for another paragraph. Okay.

The Times went on to call it an idyllic enclave isolated from the web of surface streets clogged with commuters. Okay. I have. Only I can be a snob is the thing alright and this LA Times reporter is coming for my job

they said it represents a peaceful oasis on the bustling west side notable people from Ladera Heights include former WNBA star Lisa Leslie and musicians

Tyler the Creator and Frank Ocean. Okay. Do you know any of those people? Yes, I know those people. Please pause while I move my mic. Patty, I'm so sorry. Jesus Christ. Patty, I'm sorry Brandi did that to you again.

Patty, I was actively taking a drink of water when that happened. Which makes it so impressive that she burped while she did that. But in the early morning hours of August 27th, 1994, Ladera Heights was far from idyllic. It was after 3 a.m. when a call came in to 911. The caller was calm. He reported to the dispatcher that, quote, someone fell in my pool, unquote. When the dispatcher, shit. We're back to the beginning. We're back to the beginning. When you couldn't say dispatcher. I can't say dispatcher. This is how we know you need to go

on break is when you can't say dispatcher anymore. When the dispatcher asked what the problem was, the caller simply said a drowning before giving an address and then disconnecting the call. The caller was 59-year-old Donald Bohanna, a well-known and well-respected businessman in the area. Don was handsome, wealthy, and very successful. He made his fortune running hospitals and insurance companies. And while he spent a lot of his time rubbing elbows with celebrities and politicians, he also remained community minded. He actually opened the first black owned Denny's in Watts, which also happened to be the first sit down restaurant of any kind in that neighborhood since the riots of 1965. Holy shit. Yeah.

The opening was a really big moment for the community. Yeoman? Okay. Anyway. So paramedics arrived at Don's house seven or eight minutes after he placed that 911 call, and they found him kneeling over the body of Dee Dee Jackson. They were both nude. Dee Dee was lying on her back with her head and neck propped against a tree. She was several yards away from the pool.

She wasn't breathing, and she had no heartbeat. The area underneath Deei was wet. Her skin though was dry and cool to the touch and her long hair was damp but not wet. Paramedics began performing life-saving measures on Didi and when they administered CPR compressions, Dee Dee expelled a large amount of water and alcohol. This indicated to the paramedics that no prior attempts had been made to perform CPR on her. Paramedics remained on the scene for about 30 minutes as they attempted unsuccessfully to revive Dee Dee Jackson. So they're working on her. And during this time, Don was kind of doing some weird stuff. Initially, he went in and got dressed. I don't

think that's weird at all. Right. But then he came out and the police that had arrived on scene were trying to ask him questions and he couldn't answer them. He went inside and made a couple of phone calls at one point. And then at some point along in there, his daughter and his ex-wife showed up at the house. Had he invited them there? The assumption is that he called them. They were who he called. I didn't see that confirmed, but that's kind of what everything says. So you're just talking out of your ass.

I'm not. It was very clear that Don had been drinking that night. His speech was very slurred. Some of the officers on the scene said that Don was so drunk that he was almost incoherent. They couldn't understand what he was saying. And a couple even described him as belligerent and uncooperative. The arrival of Don's ex-wife, though seemed to help that she managed to calm him down and eventually he was able to tell the police what had happened that night

according to Don Dee Dee had come to his house around 10 30 that night they'd had some drinks Don drank wine Dee Dee drank rum and coke they talked talked. They listened to music. They danced. And then at some point, they got naked and they got in the hot tub. You ever get naked and get in your hot tub? Not yet, but it could happen at any time. Well, can I leave first? No, no, you cannot. Thank you for asking. Thank you so much for asking.

He said that they spent somewhere between 20 and 40 minutes in the hot tub, which is a long time in a hot tub. How long are you spending in your hot tub? I spend a long time in it. You spend 20 to 40 minutes in it? I mean, yeah. I kind of get hot before then, I think. Well, it is a hot tub. Well, yeah.

Thank you. I do understand. That works. No, I really enjoy it. So I'm in there for a while okay all right so he said they were in there for about 20 to 40 minutes he couldn't be sure exactly how long um and then they had kind of swum swum swam swim swim swam swimmies they had gotten out of the hot tub and gotten into the pool, which was connected. How'd they do that? I don't know exactly.

By swimming in a dango. That's right. They swam around in the pool for a while. Eventually, Don said he got out. He sat at a table, continued to have a couple drinks. But Dee Dee stayed in the pool and kept swimming. Don said that he watched Dee Dee swim to the deep end of the pool. Okay.

This is something that's interesting to me. The 2020 episode said the deep end was 15 feet deep. That's super deep. Which seems really fucking deep. And this is a backyard swimming pool. Yeah. The court record says it was eight and a half feet deep. That seems much more likely.

I completely agree. How could they be so different? These things happen. It completely agree. How could they be so different? These things happen. It is true. Okay. So he watches Dee Dee swim to the deep end. He said he saw her go under the water, do an Olympic style turn, touch the pool light that was under the water, and then like flip around and swim kind of back. And then he noticed that it seemed like she was struggling under the water.

He said he dove in to try and help her, but she was flailing so much he couldn't get a hold of her. And she was just kind of like pushing him away because she was flailing so much. And so he said he got out of the water because he wasn't able to get her to the surface. And so he said he got out of the water because he wasn't able to get her to the surface. So he got out and he went and grabbed a pool pole and stood at the side and held it out to her to hold on to. He realized that the pole that he had grabbed was too short, though. And so he like dropped it in the water and he went and grabbed like the cleaning net pole because it was much longer. And so he got that. He extended it all the way and he held it into the water for Didi to grab onto

but he couldn't get her to grab it he said a couple times he like got kind of hooked under her body and started to like lift her out of the water but he would she would slide off of it and so eventually he went inside and called 911. Yeah. Was she attached to something or like had her hair gotten caught? No, no. She just was drowning. Okay. Yes.

So he ran inside, placed the 911 call, gave the address, hung up and ran back outside. He says that when he came out, he noticed that Dee Dee was motionless at the bottom of the pool. And so he, again, dove in and went underneath and put his hands under her arms to pick her up. And he brought her to the surface. He then, like, went over to the edge of the pool, but they're at the deep end. And he was trying to lift her up out of the pool. And he couldn't. Yeah. Took him a couple of times.

And finally, he was able to get Dee Dee up onto the pool deck at that side. It's cement, but, you know. Yeah, yeah. That's what they call it, the pool deck. And then he got out. He rolled her onto her stomach, he said. And he started pushing on her lower back. He thought that this would be the best way to get any water out that she may have ingested during this. Has he ever seen a movie?

I mean, seriously, this is the weirdest part to me. OK. Yeah. So he he rolls her onto her stomach, pushes on her back in an effort to try and get water out of her. That's unsuccessful. So he said he rolled her over again. And then he started just pushing on her stomach to try and get water out. And again, that was unsuccessful. So he said he put his mouth on hers and tried to suck the water out of her lungs.

It was at this point that the paramedics showed up. So he says that he did try and perform some form of CPR on her. But he just had no idea how to do it. He also at this point told investigators that he hadn't answered the questions of the police when they first got there, not because he was trying to not be cooperative, just because he was really frightened by what had just taken place at his house. He said that Dee Dee was a very strong swimmer. He said he didn't know what had happened. He had no idea how she had drowned in his pool. So an initial investigation, you know, a search of the pool, a search of the home, kind of backed up this whole story. It didn't seem like there was anything out of the norm. Detectives did canvas the neighborhood. No neighbors heard anything, nothing, you know,

leading up to this. And it seemed like this was likely just a tragic accidental drowning. But that would all change when Dee Dee Jackson's family learned of her sudden passing. So 39-year-old Dolores Dee Dee Jackson wasn't just somebody, as Don had called her on that 911 call. She happened to be the ex-wife of Tito Jackson. Maybe you've heard of him? Yeah. Brother of Janet and Michael, original member of the Jackson Five. So Tito and Didi had been high school sweethearts and together they had three sons, Taj, TJ, and Terrell. They'd been married something like 16 years before they had divorced amicably. Didi and Tito had remained friendly with each other following their divorce. Deedee had been divorced about a year when she started dating Don Bohanna, and they had

been dating about eight weeks when she died in his backyard pool. God, the Jackson family has been through some shit, huh? Some serious shit. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jackson family has been through some shit, huh? Some serious shit. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. When Dee Dee's ex-husband and sons learned that she had died while in the pool, they told investigators that it didn't make any sense. The accident, as Dawn described it, couldn't have happened that way. Because Dee Dee was afraid of water. She couldn't swim. They said she didn't get into pools. She wouldn't even wade into the water at the beach. They said she'd maybe occasionally dip her feet into a hot tub. But even then, they said she wouldn't get all the way in. But even then, they said she wouldn't get all the way in.

She was terrified of water. Wow. Yet you have Dawn here who is describing an Olympic-style turn. Okay, so I actually watched this episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder with David. And this part, like, blew my mind because I was like, hold on. She did an Olympic style turn under the water. And David's like, yeah, you know, that's not that hard. Well, he grew up on swim team. I think that sounds really fucking hard. I mean, Brandy. No, I mean, yeah, it's the little twirly thing. Yeah. People at our high school were doing that every day. Yeah, if you're on swim team, this is a – High school swim team.

Yeah. Okay. Yes. I think swimmers know how to do it, people who competitive swim. I think that just regular people don't often – don't know how to do a – All right. Do an Olympic-style turn in a pool. I'm going to take you to a pool this summer and blow your mind.

You can do it? No, but someone at the community pool will. Yes, somebody who has been on a swim team. I took years of swim lessons, was never taught this. Well, okay. What were the ages? I mean, I, till I was probably nine. Okay, yeah, you're not doing the Olympic style turns

when you're nine. If you're on swim team, you are. Well, obviously not if you never learned it. I was never on swim team. I just took swim lessons. Anyway. People, please weigh in. So the Jacksons hoped that the medical examiner's review of this case would shed some light on what had really happened here.

And an autopsy did discover a few things. There was this circular bruising on either side of Dee Dee's head that didn't seem really consistent with a rescue attempt or anything like that. It was kind of an unexplainable bruising. But the autopsy also showed that Dee Dee had three times the legal limit of alcohol in her system for driving. You know, there's no legal limit for, you know, swimming in the backyard pool. But there were also no, like like signs of defensive wounds to her body there was no like material under her fingernails or anything like that it was difficult to say exactly what had happened and so the cause of death was ruled

undetermined this was deeply concerning to the jacksons. They believed that Don had done something to Dee Dee. They did not believe this was an accidental drowning. But what would his motive be? We'll get there. All right. All right. I'll calm down. And so they went to detectives who were investigating this case and they said, Dee Dee was not a swimmer. She was afraid of the water. This doesn't make any sense. And so investigators spoke to some of Didi's friends and it turns out

that most of them said the same thing. Didi didn't get in the water. She was afraid of the water. But a few people said that she had taken some bathing suits over to Don's house. She was keeping swimsuits there. So maybe her fear of the water had changed some. Yeah. One friend told investigators that Dee Dee had told them that Don was teaching her how to swim. Another friend kind of backed this up by saying that she had noticed that Dee Dee had some bruising on her upper arms prior to her death and that she'd asked Dee Dee about it. She'd been concerned about the bruising. And Dee Dee had told her that it was from Don, but it was from him teaching her how to swim. He was holding her body up in the pool while she was getting comfortable in the water. And when

he'd done that, he'd left some bruises on her arms. Okay. One of Dee Dee's sons did kind of confirm this as well. He said that Dee Dee had told her that Don was going to teach her how to swim. But he was adamant that if she was actively learning, if she was improving, she would have shared that info with him. And she never did. She just said, Don's gonna teach me. Not he is teaching me. I'm getting so much better. I'm not afraid of the water anymore. And he really believed that if that was the case, that she would have shared that with him. OK. When they were talking to all of Didi's friends about, you know, her history with the

water and stuff, one of her friends shared a concerning comment that Dee Dee had kind of said kind of offhand. So Dee Dee had said to her friend, I hope they don't find me like they did Nicole Simpson. Oh, my. So Nicole Simpson was murdered in June of 1994, which was just two months before Dee Dee drowned. So it was definitely something that was at the top of her mind. Yeah. The front of her mind. But did this comment mean she was being abused by Dawn? The friend didn't really know.

She just said this was a comment that Dee Dee had made, just kind of like as a passing comment. And the friend didn't ask any follow-up questions? Not that I found. Okay. That remark specifically made the investigators think maybe there was some kind of foul play here, but there wasn't really... But wouldn't that point to her ex-husband more than...

I mean, by all accounts, she and her ex-husband had a wonderful relationship. I know, but if she's saying... Right, I get that that I do get what you're saying yeah do you yes because Nicole Simpson was murdered by her ex-husband allegedly no no no that's because he was found not guilty the killer's still out there Brandy we have no idea who could have done it. Yeah, okay. Anyway. But in November of 1994, the coroner was like, no, this is an undetermined death. I don't see anything here that looks like, you know, this should be ruled a homicide. And that's kind of how this case sat for two years.

But the Jacksons were not satisfied with that, and they were a really powerful family. And so they hired a lawyer, Brian Oxman, and that lawyer waged a media campaign against Donald Bohanna. They, I mean, took out like ad spots on TV. This guy went on like hard copy and said that Don had murdered Didi. He was responsible for her death. Wow. He said that Don had beaten Dee Dee. And that is how she died. What evidence do we have of that?

Well, so that's the thing, is that there's not really much evidence of that. So along with this media campaign, the Jacksons also filed a wrongful death suit against Don Bohanna. And in that, they claimed that Don Bohanna was actually bankrupt and he was deeply in debt. So it's interesting. They went into this a little bit on the accident, suicide or murder episode a little bit. So it does appear that he actually did file for bankruptcy at one point and he did lose his Denny's franchise. He like was behind on franchise payments. And so corporate took over his restaurant. They grand slammed him. That's right. But it seems like he came through that and was actually doing OK. There wasn't actually any evidence that he was like in financial ruins or

anything. But in this lawsuit, they also claimed that Don Bohanna had a history of violence against women. So this is the media thing that he puts on. So this attorney, Brian Oxman, goes on hard copy and says this guy beat and killed Dee Dee Jackson and she fell into the pool during that beating. That's how she died. He murdered her. He did it because he was bankrupt and he had asked Dee Dee that night for her to help him financially and she refused and it led to an argument in which she died. I don't know, man. I agree. Yeah, I don't know man either.

And then Brian Oxman went on to make the claims about Don having this history of violence against women. He told the media that at least a dozen times 911 calls had been made from his house and that the police had responded to them. And on this 2020 episode, they addressed this. They looked into this and it turns out that that is actually true. But they had been for noise complaints. Okay. No, there were no domestic violence calls of any kind ever. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Okay, so are they just going after an innocent guy here? I don't think the Jacksons think they are. I think they really believe that, like, there's no way she would have gotten into the pool, so he must have done something to her. But I don't know that's what happened, if that's what happened. Well, and isn't it possible if she'd had a lot to drink that maybe she did something she wouldn't normally do? Yeah, I think it's very possible. Yeah. So in addition to putting on this media campaign and filing this wrongful death suit, the Jacksons also pushed to have a second independent autopsy done.

And that autopsy was done. And it did find some stuff that hadn't come out in the initial autopsy. Didi had bitten through her tongue. Also, her frenulum, which is this little muscle that runs all the way through your gums, it had been torn. And she had some kind of trauma to her head. They looked like blunt force to her, like two blunt force trauma spots to her head. Right. And one of her earrings had been torn through her earlobe. OK. So the second the second autopsy said that these things suggested that a fight had occurred, that these didn't look like injuries that would have been caused by Don's attempts to get her out of the pool. Hmm. OK. With all of that new information, this just kind of ramped up the Jackson's media attempt. They like doubled down on everything. They didn't mince words. They called Don Bohana

a murderer. Like they said, yeah. Oh, God. Oh, yeah. OK. Oh, yeah. And Brian Oxman continued to be on every news program calling for justice for Didi and justice for her three boys. The case just sat there. Even with the second autopsy, there wasn't any, like, the district attorney wasn't willing to. Well, yeah, I mean, they don't really have anything. No. At one point, though, they did drop the civil suit. One article says that they got pressure from investigators saying that that would have an impact on a potential criminal case. Okay.

And so they did drop the civil suit at some point. In 1996, this new district attorney came along and she looked at the case. She was this member of this special unit of the Los Angeles Police Department called the Family Violence Unit. I don't know that. Do you look down on the family? No, no, no. It just seemed to mean something to the people on accident, suicide or murder. I wasn't familiar with this particular. Doesn't mean something to the people on accident, suicide, or murder. I wasn't familiar with this particular department.

Doesn't mean shit to Brandi. Brandi's a fan of family violence. Well, and, like, they said it, like, and, you know, those people from the family violence unit, like, they're really revved up and whatever. So, anyway, so Lori Jones comes along. She's apparently really revved up about this case. She's the first district attorney, actually, who looked at this case and was like, maybe there is something here. Maybe there is enough to prosecute here.

Okay. But she was concerned about the autopsy because the cause of death was listed as undetermined. She recognized that the key to being able to charge Don criminally in this case was to get that cause of death changed from undetermined to homicide. So she went to work reinvigorating this case. She sent police back to the pool. I mean, it's been years by this point. She had them look around. She sent out water experts to look at the pool.

She sent out water experts to look at the pool and investigators and the water experts said that they didn't think that Don Bohanna's version of events seemed likely. And they said it didn't really account for the injuries that Dede Jackson had sustained to her body. Specifically, and we'll go over this more a little bit later, but the water expert said in the case of a water rescue, the rescuer is the one who sustains injuries, not the person who's being rescued. And so Don came out of this with no injuries. That is interesting. Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah. Typically, the rescuer comes out very bruised because they're having to do a lot of things with a body that isn't helping them and is often fighting.

Yeah. Just like natural instinct. Yeah. Huh. from her investigators and from the water expert. And then she goes and she looks at these and she goes and talks to the LA County coroner and said, you know, we've got a couple of people who've looked over this and they think that, you know, this looks like it's inconsistent

with the story that Don Bohanna told. And the medical examiner was like, yeah, that makes sense to me. And changed the cause of death to homicide and said that her death had been caused by blunt force trauma. Yep. Yep. Yeah, it's concerning. So in March of 1997, almost three years after D.D. Jackson had drowned, Don Bohanna was charged with second degree murder. Wow. Yeah. OK. I am wanting you to speed up.'m like what happens here he pled not guilty and he hired a big name defense attorney harland braun do you know that name that big a name

he was robert blake's defense attorney oh my god it's a big name i'll be honest i was really hoping it would be like a short name so that I could be funny. Yeah. Didn't really turn out to be that way. But I told the joke anyway because I thought of it and I stood by it. That's good. Great. Thanks. You're welcome. Anyway, moving on. So he gets this high profile lawyer, Harlan Braun. And Harlan Braun hired this amazing forensic expert to be the expert witness for the defense. He was a renowned pathologist named Dr. Michael Baden. So he was a Fox News consultant. Fox News was a little bit different back at this time, but not real different. But he was the former New York City chief medical examiner.

He had decades of experience. And so he reviewed the autopsy report that Dr. David Posey had done. He was the coroner for L.A. County. And he inspected the photos of Dee Dee's body. He went and walked the pool. And he said it was clear to him that this was a typical accidental drowning where two people had been drinking a lot. Yeah. He said, I see no evidence of a homicide. He said that the bruising that had been noted on Dee Dee's body.

So there were bruises on her head, there were some bruises on her body. And some of it in the autopsy was explained as possibly caused by resuscitation attempts and stuff like that, but some of it was unexplained. And this expert, Dr. Michael Baden, said this isn't that unusual. These are trivial injuries. They were entirely consistent with the multiple attempts that were made to get her out of the pool. And he also said that those bruises were consistent with something else. What? Dee Dee had a diseased liver because she was a heavy drinker. And so little nothing bumps into things would cause her bruises that a normal person with a fully functioning liver wouldn't get those same bruises.

Wow. OK. It was something that he said that the coroner hadn't taken into consideration. All right. Mm hmm. So Don's got, you know, this this big name attorney and he's got this great expert on his side. And so on June 12th, 1998. Well, that's my husband's birthday.

It's also my birthday. Who are you? It was my golden birthday. That's when she got a golden shower. No, gross. I was 12. What's the matter with you? What's the matter with you? What's the matter with you asking for a golden shower on your 12th birthday?

Okay. Anyway, the trial began on June 12, 1998. Because even though she asked for it, they shouldn't have done it because she was only 12. Are you done? No, I had a lot of tea today. So when the trial began, the prosecution presented their theory that Don Bohanna beat Deedee. He had... Good grief.

There's just not much here. The prosecution said there had been a fight. Dawn had beat Dee Dee and she had either fallen into the pool during that attack or he had pushed her into the pool. They couldn't say which, but because she couldn't swim, she couldn't rescue herself. And so she drowned. And then Don feigned, you know, these attempts at rescuing her did eventually get her out of the pool and pretended to perform CPR on her. They had a retired lifeguard and water safety expert testify. His name was... What was his name?

His name is William Richardson. Richardson! He testified that an... He said, everybody calm down. He had like a walk-up song playing for him as he took the stand. Oh my gosh, I'm just a person. Stop. Oh, my gosh, I'm just a person.

Stop. He testified that an unconscious person retrieved from a swimming pool would have scrapes on their butt and their hips and bruises on their wrists just from the motions of, like, getting them up out of the pool and onto the pool deck. And then in this particular case, you have her moved yards away from the pool as well. And so there should have been scraping where she was pulled against like across that cement and stuff. And those marks weren't present. But do those happen 100 percent of the time? That I don't know. Exactly. Yeah.

Do those happen 100 percent of the time? That I don't know. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And also, if he's really drunk, maybe he's not doing stuff the totally normal way. Exactly. Yeah.

Also, congratulations on saying cement. You're welcome. I've been very focused on it because I, you know, I didn't catch it until just this past time. And I was like, wait, she didn't say cement. She's worried about this. I should make fun of her. Aha. William Richardson said in his opinion, his expert opinion, that Dee Dee's recovery from the pool could not have occurred in the way that Don said he had done it. And one of the paramedics that had been there at the scene got on the stand and said the same thing. They said it would be almost impossible to lift an unconscious person onto a pool deck

when the rescuer is in the deep end of the swimming pool. I mean, that, yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it's possible that Don was super drunk when this happened. Some kind of accident happened and he didn't react the way he knew he should have. And once he so. Oh, my God. What the fuck was that? Was that thunder?

And lightning. The way you love me is frightening. Hang on. Let me look outside. The way you love me is frightening Hang on, let me look outside. Brandy, there is a storm abrooing. There's a storm abrooing? There's a storm abrooing. I think it's possible that he then didn't react in a quote unquote normal manner. Yeah.

Did ridiculous things to try and get her out of the pool. manner. Yeah. It did ridiculous things to try and get her out of the pool. And then maybe didn't tell the 100 percent truth of how he did it. Once he sobered up a little bit or maybe even remember. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. This is this is too this is too much of a gray area for me to convict anybody for this. So don't ask me to. official homicide determination two years later. He said that there were a couple of things that he found in the autopsy that didn't make sense to him with Don's version. So Don said they'd been in the hot tub for 20 to 40 minutes before getting into the pool when Dee Dee then drowned in the pool. The pathologist, Dr. Posey, said that Dee Dee didn't have wrinkled fingers and toes, that this happens after 20 minutes in water. I mean, this is like a real storm out there.

You know, it's a good thing we've got two dogs and two cats. Because it's raining cats and dogs? No, because it's a Noah's Ark situation. This is how I know you never went to Vacation Bible School as a kid. Yeah, no, I never did. I am familiar with Noah's Ark, though. You have a pretty devilish way about you.

I should have known. A real heathen. So he said that was not consistent with Don's story. That those marks remain after death. Oh, really? Yes. And that had she drowned in the pool after being in the water for such an extended amount of time that those wrinkled fingers and

toes would have still been present. And they weren't present when paramedics arrived. They weren't present when the autopsy was done. Yeah. He was asked about how he changed the ruling, how initially he had it as undetermined and how he changed it to homicide. And he said he had done that after other experts, you know, he read other things presented to him by other experts who said this was blunt force trauma. These markings aren't consistent with a rescue attempt. This was blunt force trauma. These markings aren't consistent with a rescue attempt. But on cross-examination, that story kind of broke down a little bit. Dr. Posey had to change that version a little bit. He had to admit that he hadn't actually read anything presented by other experts.

He hadn't consulted any experts himself. He had just been told by Laurie Jones that she had consulted an expert and that they had said this is consistent with a homicide and that he'd just taken her word for it. Good grief. Yeah. I think that's a major fucking problem. Yeah. Yeah. A bunch of Dee Dee's friends testified to the same stuff they'd told during the investigation that I already touched on.

And so we're not going to go over all that again. But after the prosecution rested, it was then the defense's turn and they took a bold strategy. They didn't call their expert witness. Oh, really? No. Ew, it's like a money saving measure. why wouldn't you call your expert witness so harland braun later said that he thought that michael baden was too weak of a witness and that the prosecution would have torn him apart and so instead they put no experts on the stand no witnesses to speak of only no no no he no, no, no. He did not testify

in his own defense. Don Bohanna. No. Mm-hmm. And by all accounts, he did terrible on the stand. Well, yeah.

He says that he was not given any preparation. Harland Braun didn't coach him in any way. Yeah, the coaching is don't do this. Yeah. Did he want to take the stand? No. According to him, according to Don Bohanna, he did not want to take the stand. I hate this. His attorney was like, this is the move. This is what we do.

And so he took the stand and he answered a bunch of questions. And then on cross-examination, prosecution got him to admit that he felt responsible for Dee Dee's death because she had died in his pool and he had been intoxicated. And had he not been, he said he believed he could have saved her. OK, but that's different. Absolutely. It's different. Yes. Absolutely. It's different. Yes. Absolutely. It's different. But and I feel like anyone would feel responsible.

I totally agree. You'd be second guessing everything you did. Absolutely. I think it's just being human. Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying, yeah, this horrible thing happened. And yeah, it happened at my house.

And yeah, I was intoxicated. And I hate that I had been drinking. Yes. Because of that, I couldn't save her right and i would have oh fuck and that's the only person the defense put on the stand oh my god then the jury got the case no stop right there we're done with this story i I hate it. And they returned with a verdict. No. They found Don Bohanna.

They didn't know what to say. They found him guilty of second degree murder. Yeah. In November of 1998, he was sentenced to 15 years to life. Oh, my God. Yep. Mm-hmm. So Don Bohanna is interviewed on this 2020 episode from prison.

Mm-hmm. He said his deepest anger in this case is toward his own attorney. Well, of course it is. Charlin Braun. Yeah. He said he screwed me all the way. Yes, agreed. But Harlan Braun tells a different story. He says what I already told you. Dr. Baden would have been a weak witness and that the only person to blame for their loss in the courtroom was Don Bohanna. He said he was. I'm sorry, what?

He said he was the worst witness in the case. You put him on the stand. Yep. Harland Braun said that his trial strategy was to damage the credibility of the prosecution's witnesses during cross-examination. He said, it's always better to get what you want out of a prosecution's witness than to put your own witness on the stand. He felt like he did enough work against their forensic pathologist that he didn't need to put his own forensic pathologist on the stand. Okay, so that's a gamble I can kind of understand.

I can too. Also, you have to own that if that's a gamble I can kind of understand. I can, too. Also, you have to own that if that's your gamble. But also, there are very few people who can successfully take the stand in their own defense. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Take the stand in their own defense. Yeah.

Yep. Yep. So in 2002, Don Bohanna appealed his conviction on the grounds that Harlan Braun had provided him ineffective counsel. But that appeal was rejected. They said that Braun's trial strategy was reasonable. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. It's like you literally have to shit on the witness stand.

Yep. Yeah. And that's not just me talking out my ass. Mm-hmm. You have to leave little trails. Stop it. First one turd, then two turds stacked up. Oh, okay. And then three turds.

I don't think you have to do stair steps. Yes, you do have to do. They're not stairs, Brandy. They're spread apart pretty well, just enough that you see the pattern so that you know that a human has done this and it's not God's making. Don't you think just a trail of one turd each

would do a similar thing? No, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Sure. Because turds can be scattered all about everywhere. Well, no, if you see them in a path, people are going to know. It might take you three or four turds in to realize that it's a path of turds, but eventually you'd put it together. I'm talking about like seeing it and immediately knowing, aha, this is art. And aha, this is art.

Yeah, I think they're just looking at it two different ways. Well, I'm certainly looking at it from a classier way i'll tell you that i'll tell you that right now uh what what's wrong brandy yeah i'd like to continue got Turd got your tongue? Yeah, gross. So Don Bohanna had some big claims, too, against his trial attorney. He said he suspects that money was the reason behind Harlan's decision not to call Dr. Baden. So at the time of trial, Don was behind on his payments to Braun. There we go. And according to... Ew, I'm a genius. I said save money.

Oh, my God. So according to a sworn affidavit signed by Don's brother, Braun, Harlan Braun, called him the night before trial and said, quote, it is not wise to have an attorney starting trial angry

about nonpayment of his fee. Harlan Braun went on the record with 2020 and said he never made that statement. Sure. He said, I didn't like the fact that he had stiffed me, but I wasn't going to pull any punches on a murder case. But I wasn't going to pull any punches on a murder case. No, but you might be inclined to take more of a gamble with it. Yeah. You might care just like a little bit less.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Don has always maintained his innocence. Speaking to 2020, he said that he'd sooner die in prison than admit to killing Deedee. He said, hell will freeze over before I admit I did something I didn't do. Wow. Bo Hanna went before the parole board six times before it was finally granted. In December of 2022, after serving 24 years in prison, he was finally paroled. 24 years? I thought he was sentenced to like 15.

15 to life. Oh. 15 to life. God damn. Yeah. He served 24 years. At each of his parole hearings, the Jackson family came and spoke against his release. And they're a powerful family. And Don wouldn't take responsibility for. That's troubling. Thanks a lot, Brandy.

Yep. And why'd you mention that trail of turds? That was a tangent not worth going on, me thinks. Don's daughter, Donna, has done some digging into this case. She completely believes in her father's innocence. Yeah. Yeah, I think there's not enough here to prove that he murdered her. Yeah. I think I think there's not enough. There's not enough that he murdered her. No, I think it is most likely an accident happened and he wasn't in inebriated state and couldn't respond properly. And so, yeah, he saying he feels responsible for her death. I totally get that. Yeah. But he's not criminally responsible. No, I agree. But he's not criminally responsible. No, I agree.

It's interesting. Different sources kind of present this case different ways. The accident, suicide or murder case presents this like this is a murder. Yeah. This is totally a murder. I found a Medium article who presents it like this guy's completely wrongfully convicted. And then the 2020 episode somewhere kind of in the middle. Did you feel like Goldilocks when you were looking into this? I did. I did. Yeah. Whose bed when you were looking into this? I did.

I did. Yeah. Whose bed did you get in? I think I'm in. Hugh Downs? Yeah. I'm on the I'm on the 2020 camp. Like most likely I think he didn't murder her.

I think there's a chance he did. Sure. But I think the motive is super weak. They'd only been dating eight weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He got embarrassed because or mad because she wouldn't

bail him out from some financial situation that may have not even existed. That's weak. Yeah. I think it's super weak. So Donna Bohanna looked into this a little bit and the people who prosecuted this case and there are some issues. Laurie Ann Jones, who is the DA who finally like took this case on and was like, yeah, there's enough to prosecute and then went to work getting the cause of death changed. Did I say that right? You said more like two chains. Okay. Two chains. Anyway, she was later involved in a bribery case. Oh. And she did get an immunity deal in that case, but is no longer associated with the DA's office.

Okay. Brian Oxman, who is, what are you doing? I'm sorry. I was looking at something and I decided I wasn't going to say anything about it, but you caught me looking. What are you looking at? Your wedding ring is wiggling all around your finger. What's happening? I know.

Like, it, like, slides down. Some days it fits perfect and, like, some days it's too big. Well, what are you on, some weird, like, cabbage diet or something? My hands change size dramatically based on my body temperature. My hands swell and shrink like very dramatically. Okay. Like multiple sizes of like ring. No, I believe it because I've never seen your ring finger move around like that.

Right now I'm kind of cold. So yeah, my hands are there. All right. All right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're totally fine. You really track my eye movements, don't you?

So Brian Oxman, he is the attorney. Stop it. You can open your eyes. He's the attorney that the Jackson family retained that launched the media campaign against Don Bohanna and the wrongful death suit and all that. He was later disbarred in California for unethical practice of law. Oh. Mm-hmm. And there are big questions about Dr. Posey's credentials.

So he's the medical examiner, the coroner who listed the cause of death as undetermined originally and then changed it to homicide. So it turns out that he only had like a month of coroner's office experience at the time of this. He had previously been a hospital pathologist. Okay. And so he likely did not have the expertise to make either of those determinations. So it makes sense that someone came to him and said, hey, this is what it is. And he's like, oh, sure, you're right.

Yeah. And that's the story of a mysterious drowning. Yeah. I think it would be very easy to be the Jackson family and be like. Oh, sure. And think, well, something had to have happened. Yes, something had to have happened. But the fact that this got to trial and got a conviction.

Yeah, that's, there's not enough here. No. No. Blah. Mm-hmm. You know, I'm really in the mood to do an ad right now. Okay. Doodaloo.

Doodaloo. And now we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. I finished my case and I just immediately clicked my brain off, so. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, good. Good. I don't need you to be engaged for my fabulous story. Excuse me while I get some water, won't you?

Ooh, get some water. Yargh, matey. Are you going to talk to us about a shipwreck? I sure am are there pirates I don't know why don't you find out okay I will tell me first of all shout out to Brandy

not with an I in the discord for suggesting this case not with an I huh that's right is this really about pirates because David's going to sneeze his jeans if it is oh my god Brandy he loves pirates Is this really about pirates? Because David's going to sneeze his jeans if it is. Oh, my God. Randy.

He loves pirates. He comes to pirates? Well, I don't know that he comes to pirates. Well, that's what you just said. You said he would be excited. He would lose control of his ding-a-ling. That's what you just said to all of us. I did say that.

So think on that for a while. All right. First of all, old timey disclaimer. Do I have to explain the old timey disclaimer? No, people figure it out. Oh, yeah, if you want to, that's fine. Just with these old timey cases, you know, sometimes different stuff comes up.

You don't know who to believe. So you have to give the old timey disclaimer. That's right. Also, international case disclaimer, which is a disclaimer we give when, like, we barely understand the American legal system. And here we are going to another country. Also, big old shout out to Wikipedia. The Wikipedia entry for this case is basically a very condensed version of a book by A.W.B. Simpson. What's the A, W, and B stand for?

Oh, well, I saw it. It's like Alfred blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. But I thought, you know, if Alfred I saw it. It's like Alfred blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. But I thought, you know, if Alfred doesn't want. Oh, yeah. He wants to go by Ob, then he'll go by Ob. Even though I don't like it. Yeah.

But no one asked me. That's right. Except maybe you were kind of asking. Do you think anybody called him Ob? What do you think people called him? I don't know. Okay. All right.

I was just curious. But it's an interesting question, isn't know. Okay. All right. I was just curious. But it's an interesting question, isn't it? Yeah. It makes you wonder why. Yeah. Why the initials? Yeah. Why not just your name?

The world may never know. Anyhow, the title of the book is very long, and yes, there is a a colon in it but i won't read it to you because it gives too much away oh okay also where's that little lip gloss i had it was on your seat earlier that's all i know i didn't touch it you took it didn't you yeah i want your used up gross lip it's not gross it might be a little gross where is that thing i don't know it literally was in your chair when we came up here but that was the first time we came up is it up my butt in around the corner did i sit on it god damn do you need to go get some lipstick no i'll just soldier on yeah look it was in this room earlier. Are you sitting on it?

Is your butt upon it right now? No. I have reason to believe. Did you toss it in that bucket? It stowed away in your purse. I didn't take it. It stowed away. I couldn't be less interested in your gross used up lip gloss.

Oh my God. I almost pulled my tit out to punish you for saying that. Oh, God. See, exactly. That'd be a terrible punishment for you. I might just leave. Leave? Well, that would certainly be insulting.

Okay. Twas the year of our Lord, 1883. No shit. Mm-hmm. And a man named Jack Want wanted a yacht. Mm-hmm. Jack lived in Australia, and he wasn't the least bit interested in shopping locally. So he traveled to England to go yacht shopping.

Are there yachts in 1883? Obviously there were, because to go yacht shopping. Are there yachts in 1883? Obviously there were because he was yacht shopping. What are we calling a yacht in 1883? A yacht. Does it look like a pirate ship? What do you mean, does it look like a... Okay, today's yachts didn't exist in 1883, ma'am. So what did an 1883 yacht look like?

Was it like a schooner? It looked like a jet ski, okay? No, it didn't! It looked like three jet skis tied together. Anyway. So that's all you get to know because you have upset me by asking too many questions. I'm Googling 1883 yacht. Anyhow, he was going yacht shopping.

Are you really Googling in the middle of my story? I want to know what a fucking yacht looks like in 1883. Fine. Everyone, she's so rude. Yeah, it looks like a fucking schooner. All right, I'm ready now. Was that really necessary? Yes, it was.

All right. I'm ready now. Was that really necessary? Yes, it was. Brandy, I don't mean to impress the pants clean off you, but Jack's dad had been a founding member of the Royal Sydney Yacht Squadron. Okay. Okay. All right.

Color me impressed. That organization is still around, and it is not open to the public, so don't even fucking try. Okay. All right. Color me impressed. That organization is still around and it is not open to the public, so don't even fucking try. Yeah, I had— Don't even try, everyone. Brandy just slipped into her sailor suit. Jack was a big-time lawyer or, as they say in Australia, a barrister bear, and he was a politician. Did he do some shady business deals? Who cares?

That's not what we're here to talk about. So don't ask about it. Only Google 1883 yacht. Yeah. Yeah. Was it 84? You said 1883, I think. All right.

Very good. I'm sure I was right. Anyway, the important thing to know is that on the trip to England, Jack found the perfect yacht. Oh, good. I'm sure I was right. Anyway, the important thing to know is that on the trip to England, Jack found the perfect yacht. Oh, good. It had 19.43 net tonnage. Great. And she was 52 feet long. Sounds big. That's a lot of jet skis. And yeah, the old girl had a few years on her she'd been built in 1867 all right she was a butte she was named the minionette oh there was one small problem it already belonged to someone else no oh well you think one rich dude's on one side of the yacht yeah no they're like on either side which way does it go absolutely one of them's got bacon in their pocket no the problem was that jack bought this yacht in cows which of course as we all know you pay it in cows? no cows is an English seaport town

on the Isle of White and you guys take moo bucks? good god everyone she's so pleased with her own joke that it hurts her. That's where we're at right now. Anyway, so he purchased it from inside a cow. Which I don't approve of because I don't approve of bestiality.

But, you know, some folks do. So he's inside a cow when he makes this purchase okay which was very far from sydney australia because that cow happened to be located in cows england yeah um it's like a russian nesting doll situation so this thing and then you've got this guy he's the he's the littlest one inside and he's buying a yacht which is great for him you know one time we got some feedback that was like you know i really appreciate that they go on break because like you can kind of tell that they're like ready for a break and then they go on break and they're refreshed yeah what could they mean by that do you think

they're getting that here's here's how i know we need to go on break i am one to bring up the joke of a man fucking a cow in Cows, England. Yeah. You don't normally go down that road with me. No, not usually. And that's when we go astray. That's right. As a podcast.

There's no adult in the car right now. That's the problem. We need adult supervision. So anyway, he needed someone to transport this yacht all the way to australia what he can't just fucking sail it all the way to fucking sydney he's a barrister bear he's a politician he's got shit to do all right well how to get there didn't he sail there to begin with yeah probably in something much bigger or i don't know. Not in this little yacht. Okay. It's not big. It's 54 feet long.

52. Oh, excuse me. This was not a big deal, Brandy. Rich dudes all the time hired crews to sail their boats from point A to point B. Okay. Except this was a little different because the Minionette wasn't meant for long voyages. Oh, see, that seems like a problem because I think from Cowes to Sydney is pretty far. Upwards of three miles, they say. Yeah.

It wasn't built to navigate super rough seas. The Minionette was what we folks in the yachting biz call an inshore boat. Ideal for puttering around relatively close to shore, like on the Lake of the Ozarks. I don't think you're... That's what they mean. So Jack needed to find a crew that would take his little inshore boat on a 15,000 mile voyage. Shit. Who wanted to do it?

Who wanted to go? Everybody raise your hand. Who's coming with me? Oh, Jack's not going. No, this is, yeah, no. It was kind of tough to find anyone who would take the job. Yeah, how much was he offering? Don't worry about that.

The thing is, people are lazy and they don't want to work anymore, Brandy, and that's why he had trouble finding anybody. It's not because this job sucked. Sure. Eventually, Jack found someone who was up to the job. It was 31-year-old Tom Dudley. Tom would be the captain. Go ahead and say it. No. Say it. Did he make it happen? You're supposed to say aye-aye. Oh. My God, you have no respect for captains. 36-year-old Edwin Stevens would be the mate.

First mate. Well, here's the thing. They didn't say first mate. They just said mate. Is first mate when you've got a real big crew? I have no idea. Do you have second mate, third mate, fourth mate? I thought it was just like the second in command was called the first mate.

I thought so too, but they just called this dude a mate. Okay. Anyhow, they also had 38-year-old Edmund Brooks. He would be the seaman. Stop that right there. I didn't say anything. I didn't even laugh a little. You had a look on your face. I don't know what you're talking about.

Like you know your way around, semen. And 17-year-old Richard Parker would be the cabin boy. Tom, Edwin, and Edmund were all married and had children. One source said one of them didn't. Oh, well, we're ignoring that because old-timey disclaimer. Bottom line, they were all experienced and had children. One source said one of them didn't. Oh, well, we're ignoring that because old timey disclaimer. Bottom line, they were all experienced semen. Richard had zero. I'm experienced in semen, too.

That's disgusting. Sorry. Hi, Mom. Hi, Dad. Yeah. My God. Is there anything you'd like to say for yourself, Brandy? Nope. No? All right. All right. Okay.

Richard had zero boating experience, no semen experience, unlike Brandy, who's swimming in the stuff. And it seems that he took his job, this job, because he didn't really have another option. He had no other jobs. Well, OK, so this just sounds sad to me. He wasn't even getting paid for this. What? He was being paid in food and accommodations. Well, that's on this shitty boat.

Exactly. Well, that's terrible. Yeah. All right. So that was the crew. On May 19th, 1884, Tom, Edwin, Edmund, and Richard set sail for Sydney. Couldn't they have found two people that didn't have such similar names? No, they couldn't.

This is boatful Ed, Edd, and Eddie. I know. For the first several days of their voyage, everything was, you know, uneventful. Cool. A-okay, as they say in the boating world. They were doing just fine. On July 5th, they were near the...

Oh. What? You're right. No, you know what? Actually, I wrote the right thing, but it just seemed wrong in my head, and so I got disappointed. Then I realized I was right. Now I don't know what to do.

I think you probably just keep on keeping on. I think so. On July, oh, by July 5th, oh, no, we're going apart. The wheels are falling off. Woo! They were near the Cape of Good Hope in South Africa, which I've been to because I'm very well-traveled. Which I've been to because I'm very well traveled. I've been to Branson, Missouri and the Cape of Good Hope.

And everything looked great. So Captain Tom Dudley was like, heave to. Which that means let's tuck in for the night. Heave to? Heave to. Okay. You're used to hearing heave to! Okay. You're used to hearing heave ho. Yeah.

So the crew prepared... Because I'm such a ho. That's right. Yeah. That's right. We all got it. Yes, we did. So the crew prepared the ship to heave to, and 17-year-old Richard Parker went below deck to make tea for everyone.

And as he was doing that, a huge wave struck the minionette and washed away the bulwark. The fuck's that mean? Well, that, of course, is the extension of a ship's side above the level of the weather deck. Oh, okay. So that's the railings. You definitely want to keep it. Yeah, you want those. You want that fully attached. Captain Tom knew immediately that they were fucked. The ship was going to go down and it was going to go down fast. He ordered the men to lower the lifeboat. And they did, but it was absolute chaos. Tom was able to grab a compass and some other navigational tools.

And someone, maybe it was Tom, I don't know, was able to grab two tins of turnips. And that was it. That was all anyone could grab. Oh, my gosh. The Minionette sank five minutes after that big wave hit it holy shit and so the four men i'm i'm calling them men even though one was 17 just yeah for the ease of it found themselves in a flimsy 13 foot long lifeboat that was made of boards that were about a quarter of an inch thick. Wow.

Yeah. On the ocean. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The water was obviously very rough. They were about 700 miles from the nearest land. Oh, my gosh. They did what they could to survive.

Captain Tom found something to use as an anchor, and he used that to keep the lifeboat kind of stable. The men used their clothes to create a sail. That first night, a shark circled the lifeboat. Oh, my gosh. And all they could do was fight it off with their oars. Holy shit. Yeah. And all they could do was fight it off with their oars.

Holy shit. Yeah. They hoped they would survive long enough to be rescued, but it didn't look good. No. In their haste to get off the sinking ship, they hadn't grabbed any drinking water. So a day passed. They drank nothing. they ate nothing they didn't know how long they'd have to make those two tins of turnips last so the captain was really hesitant to open them but after they'd been on the lifeboat for like three days without food or water

captain tom opened one of the tins. There were five pieces of turnip inside that tin. Oh my gosh. And the four men made those pieces last them for two days. Wow. On July 9th, Edmund Brooks spotted a sea turtle in the water and they were able to grab it and they ate the meat and ate the bones. They wanted to drink the turtle's blood, but it had been contaminated with seawater. So even though they were dying of dehydration, they knew they couldn't drink it. More days passed. They still hadn't seen any other ship. They ate the second can of turnips. More days passed.

Finally, on July 13th, the men began drinking their own urine. I would have done that on day one. Yeah, absolutely. You do it sometimes, like there's fresh water available to you. Well, I just like the taste of my own brand, you know. They all knew that they shouldn't drink the seawater, but it seems that 17-year-old Richard Parker couldn't help himself. He drank some and he got sick. Very sick. On July 16th, or maybe it was July 17th, the men came to accept that they could be lost at sea for a very long time.

And maybe the only way for the majority of the group to survive was if they all agreed that one of them should be killed so that the others could eat his body and drink his blood. Mm-hmm. Randy's not fazed by this. Nope. You're not fazed by it? No, but there's a very specific reason why I'm not. What?

Because this is the current plot on... Oh. Gotta bleep that because that's a spoiler. Okay. Yeah, we don't want people hearing spoilers for RuPaul's Drag Race. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, we don't want people hearing spoilers for RuPaul's Drag Race. This was obviously an awful thing to think about, but it wasn't unheard of because those men had seen RuPaul's Drag Race. Right.

There had been a lot of shipwrecks where people survived by resorting to cannibalism. People would draw lots and whoever got the short stick would be killed for the nourishment of the group. So they started talking about it. And this talk lasted for days. But the men couldn't come to a consensus. Richard Parker was too sick to really participate in these conversations. And Edmund Brooks was flat out opposed to any of them being killed. He said he didn't want to kill anyone and he didn't want anyone to kill him. Yeah. But Captain Tom felt strongly that they should draw lots.

It was the only way for any of them to survive. survive. Meanwhile, Richard Parker got sicker and sicker. More days passed. He was out of it, perhaps in a coma. Captain Tom kept pressing the issue. One night he told Edmund and Edwin, hey, you know, the three of us have wives. We have children. We have people who need us. Richard is an orphan. He's probably going to die soon. If they killed Richard instead of just letting him die, then they'd at least get to drink his blood. Do you know the logic behind this?

Okay, so this is gross so if your squeamish just you know push ahead a couple seconds if he died naturally his blood would congeal and it would be harder to drink oh my gosh brandy what would you do in this situation? I wouldn't have made it this far. What do you mean? I would have fucking died when they had to get the turtle. They would just be feasting on me by now. They say, Brandy, can we use your hoodie as a sale? You're like, no.

No. I'm not, I'm not prepared to show my arms. and I don't want anyone to see my arms. That's exactly right. No,

come on. We're in a lifeboat. I've survived to this point. That's what you're saying. Am I willing to drink someone's blood to survive? I mean, if everybody else is doing it, probably. You don't want to look uncool.

That's exactly right. No, I think it would be very difficult to just physically be able to do that. Just physically be able to do that. But if you're, I mean, they are literally dying of thirst. So, yeah, I imagine I could do it. What about you? I've had a lot of thoughts about this, Brandy. Okay.

What are you thinking? Specifically, I was thinking about, okay, I'm in this situation with Brandy. You know, it's like it's you or me. Yeah. I was thinking about this when I was doing laundry the other day. OK. I'm doing the laundry and I'm thinking, you know what? I would do the noble thing.

I would sacrifice myself so that she would survive. And, you know, I pictured like the conversation we would have. And I'd be like, you know what? You're a mother. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I got really emotional about how great a person I was being in that conversation. But then as I was walking the clothes upstairs to fold them, it occurred to me, you know what this bitch would do? I'd be dead, ripe for the eating. Yeah.

And you'd be like, um, okay, so it's not that she tastes bad. It's a texture issue. It's a texture issue. So I'd be dead for nothing. Exactly. So I'd have to kill you. Yeah. That's fine.

You can kill me. What? I really don't know if I could do it. Yeah. I mean, who knows what you'd do in this situation? I am being serious. I don't know that I would have made it to this point.

Yeah, no, me neither. It's amazing they've survived this long. Edmund and Edwin wouldn't agree to kill Richard, but they did agree to think about it. And then the morning came. They'd been lost at sea for like 20 days. Holy shit. I know. What happened next differs

depending on who tells the story. Did everyone silently agree that they should kill Richard? Or did Captain Tom and Edwin Stevens agree to kill Richard while Edmund Brooks didn't express an opinion one way or the other? The one thing that they can all agree on is that Captain Tom said a prayer and he took out his knife. And Edwin stood by Richard's legs, ready to hold him down if he struggled, and Tom sliced Richard's throat.

Brooks claims that he fainted as soon as he saw Tom approaching Richard with the knife. Okay. Then he came to afterward when the boy was dead. And then the three of them ate the body of Richard Parker and drank his blood. More days passed. And finally, on July 29th, 24 days after the minionette sank they spotted another boat oh my gosh did they flag it down what do they have no they were busy they were like

stop it no what do they have to flag it down they don't have flares they don't have anything you know what they did they said it was a German boat called the Montezuma and the crew of that boat called the Montezuma. And the crew of that boat saw the little lifeboat and they rescued the three remaining men of the mignonette crew. The dudes on the Montezuma were a little shocked by the mignonette crew.

They all looked so weak. They looked terrible. And there were some pieces of flesh and bones in the lifeboat, and they weren't sure what to make of that. Yeah. At any rate, the Montezuma crew took the three men to Falmouth, England. Sure. They arrived on September 6th. Tom and Edmund and Edwin all went to the customs house, and of course they had to do some paperwork explaining how the minionette had sank. And the three men told the customs officials about their horrible time at sea and how they'd resorted to cannibalism. They told the full story.

The men obviously didn't want to have eaten Richard Parker. No, of course not. But they felt no need to lie about what they'd done. No, they did it to survive. Oh, so it's okay? What's up, Brandy? Oh, look out, everyone. Brandy's real hungry.

She's going to munch on your cheek. I'm not. I'm just saying this was literally a life or death circumstance. Yeah. They figured they were protected by the custom of the sea. Was that a real thing? Yeah. Maritime law?

Well, no, it's not quite maritime law, but it's just kind of part of the deal that if you get shipwrecked, you draw lots and, you know, someone would get eaten. It happens sometimes. Fuck, okay. I mean, yeah, it's not what you want ever, but it wasn't unheard of. So the customs officer took down the story, but nearby was this police sergeant named James Laverty. And James was horrified by what he heard. He tried to be casual about it. He went over to Captain Tom and was like, hey, hey, so you killed that kid, huh?

And Tom was like, yeah. And the officer was like, cool, so you did it with that knife, huh? Could I knife and tom was like okay yeah sure here it is and the officer was like wow could i keep this for a while i promised to give it back and tom was like well okay and then boom the dude arrested the crew of Oh, they'd murdered a kid, Brandy. Mm hmm. The officer scampered off and he got copies of the statements they'd given and he sent it up the chain to London. And the folks in London were like, good heavens, detain those men. Home Secretary Sir William Harcourt said, If these men are not tried for murder, we are giving carte blanche to every ship's captain whenever he runs low on provisions to eat his cabin boy. Well, that's not what happened.

No, that's ridiculous. Yeah. Hey, we're low on cheese, so I'm just going to take a bite out of Ned here. Yeah, no, that's not what happened. Some of what he was dying. Who are you to decide who's in a comatose state? They had no way to help him. Right. to help him. Right. No, I'm with you. I think they made the most logical decision. It's a horrible decision. It's horrible.

And it's a horrible position they were in. Yeah, but I think they made the most logical decision. To me, it doesn't make sense to draw lots when someone is in a coma. So, you know, some folks in London are horrified, but other people were like, well, OK, yeah, this is terrible, but they kind of did what they had to do. And James Laverty was like, well, no, actually, you're wrong. He went to the mayor and the mayor was like, yes, you have permission to charge these dudes with murder on the high seas. to charge these dudes with murder on the high seas. Tom and Edmund and Edwin were stunned by these charges.

Yeah. They'd actually been making arrangements to go back home and see their families. Of course they were. Holy shit. This is not at all how I saw this going. How did you see this going? I don't know. I thought they were going to sue the boat owner or something. Yeah.

No, I totally see how you saw that. Uh-huh. Holy shit! Yeah. If they hadn't done this, they all would have died, most likely. Absolutely.

Absolutely. Wow. You know, all would have died most likely absolutely absolutely wow you know it also they could have very easily not told anybody yeah that's not really an excuse but i'm just saying no but if they knew this would be the reaction they would have just not told anyone. Holy shit. Yeah, I wouldn't have thought, like, this is something we have to keep quiet. No one can know. No, it's funny. Captain Tom Dudley felt very strongly, like, we need to be honest about what happened. Like, obviously it was horrible, but what are we going to do? Yeah. You know?

So, you know, they've been charged. But they still weren't super worried. They kind of figured this was a formality. Yeah. They figured anyone could see that they only did what they had to do to survive. And the vast majority of the public was on their side, including Richard Parker's own brother. At a hearing in late September, he went in and shook all three men's hands and wished them well. He was a seaman himself, and he was of the opinion that these guys had done what they'd had to do. But even though the public seemed to think that these guys shouldn't go on trial, a lot of people in the justice system were very eager for this to go to trial because they wanted to settle a huge question in the legal system, which was, is necessity ever a defense for homicide? Wow.

See, if I'd gone to two semesters of law school, I would have had to study this case. I didn't even enjoy reading about it this morning. I'll tell you that right now. Is it ever okay to kill somebody? This could be a groundbreaking precedent setting case. Or as an idiot might say a president set in case i hate it when people mix those two yes but man it'd be a tough one to prosecute yeah these men were charged with murder basically the worst thing you can be charged with and under normal circumstances

someone charged with murder would never be let out on bail. But the men's defense attorney argued that they should get bailed because they were really only being tried for murder on kind of a technicality. This was not a normal murder. These men were not a threat to society. So the second time that the defense requested bail, the judge agreed to it. And everyone in the courtroom applauded. Yeah. So the prosecution began preparing its case.

They were shaking in their little wigs because this was going to be really tough. Under common law, the three defendants had the privilege against self-incrimination. And they were the only witnesses to the crime. And yeah, they had sort of confessed, but they hadn't confessed in an official capacity. They just kind of told their stories to the customs official. And of course, the customs official hadn't warned them that what they said could be used against them in criminal court. I don't know if they even give those warnings in jolly old England, but still.

Right. What if the defense was able to get those statements thrown out? If the defense managed that, then the prosecution would have basically nothing. Yeah. The prosecution knew that if they wanted even a shot in hell at winning this thing, they needed to drop the charges against Edmund Brooks. He was the one who'd arguably participated the least in the murder. Okay. Passed out my ass.

Yeah. I'm such an asshole. I don't envy this man at all. No. All right. Anyway, in exchange for immunity, they could make Edmund a witness for the prosecution. What are you thinking? Is he going to be willing to do that? Testify against his captain?

Yeah. Wow. Okay. For immunity? Sure. Right. These other guys are facing the death penalty. Okay. For immunity, sure. Right. These other guys are facing the death penalty. Yeah. The subsequent legal proceedings were a little hard for me to follow. Maybe gave me horrific law school flashbacks to all the times when I read the same paragraph five times and gleaned nothing from it.

But anyhow, on November 3rd, Tom and Edwin were put on trial for murder. They were in the courtroom of Judge Baron Huddleston, I presume. And boy, was he pleased as punch to be the judge in this case. Was he? Yeah. Because high profile? Yeah, he was going to settle a huge legal conundrum. You know, my case, the trial started on my birthday.

Your case, the trial started the day after your birthday. Just fun fact for everyone. A lot of fun facts. Really enjoy it. Also, I ate a man yesterday the prosecution was led by arthur charles and he had all kinds of shit on his side he had the testimony of edmund brooks on cross-examination the defense didn't really argue with edmund instead he was just like okay please confirm that you guys were all dying on that lifeboat and he's

like yeah and also please confirm that even though were all dying on that lifeboat. And he's like, yeah. And also, please confirm that even though you were like horrified and totally didn't participate in the killing. You ate him. Yeah, you feasted on his ass, dude. Yeah. Which is a quote from the court record. I don't think it is. The prosecution also had the testimony of that police officer who'd taken Captain Tom's knife.

They had the testimony of one of the dudes from the rescue ship who was like, yeah, we rescued him. They look terrible. There was flesh in the boat. The prosecution argued that you shouldn't use the necessity defense in this case. And that the defense shouldn't even try using an insanity defense because Captain Tom had prayed before he killed Richard. And the men had all discussed their options at length. using an insanity defense because Captain Tom had prayed before he killed Richard, and the men had all discussed their options at length, and that clearly showed that none of them had been insane at the time of the killing. Well, no, no one was insane.

He's just saying don't even try that defense. Okay. Don't even bring it in here. All right. I see you thinking about it. Don't even. I mean, they probably were delirious from being... Right.

Right. But not insane. Okay. The prosecution wasn't totally heartless. Arthur Charles was like, look, they definitely murdered that kid. Murder is wrong, so we have to find them guilty. But, you know. I'm sure these dudes will get clemency.

You know, it's fine. So they're really just pursuing this case for precedent. Right. Wow. Yeah, they wanted to settle this legal issue. The defense took an interesting approach. They sought total exoneration. They didn't try to argue for manslaughter or anything, just total exoneration. Which makes me feel like they were in on this whole thing, too, for the legal precedent. At some point, Judge Barron Huddleston surprised everybody. He told the jury that he wanted them to return a special verdict. This was super unusual.

When a jury returns a special verdict, they're really only deciding on the facts of the case. Did this happen? Did this not happen? What they aren't deciding is whether a person is guilty. That part would be for the judge to decide. You're making that face because, yes, this is weird. Okay, these special verdicts had at one point been pretty common in England, but this was 1884. A special verdict hadn't been requested in like 100 years. Yeah. And, of course, the judge did this because he already had his mind made up about how he wanted this case to go and the precedent he wanted to set.

So he told the jury, look, you got two options. Either you find these two guys guilty of murder or you be good boys and return a special verdict. Oh. Oh, wait. What's this? What's this right here? Do I have a special verdict already written out, hidden in the folds of my robe? Well, look at that.

I sure do. Look at that. Oh, my gosh. Hey, jury. Hey, why don't I read this out loud to you so you can tell me if you agree? P.S. Your silence will be interpreted as agreement. So blah, blah, blah.

The judge read his special verdict where he was like, yep, these dudes would have been dead in four days if they hadn't killed Richard Parker. And Richard Parker probably would have died before the other three guys, you know, so OK. But, oh, we as the jury, we just don't know what to do. We need some help. And the jury was all kind of like, well, OK, I guess that sounds good. Could we add some stuff to it? Because we do have some input. And the judge was like, oh, yes.

No, thank you. No, he didn't say that. Wow. He said, oh, yes, don't worry about it. I know everything you want to add, and I've actually already added it. It's in there. So. What?

Goodbye. Thank you for your service. Okay. Get out. So the jury went away, and then Judge Barron Huddleston was able to carry out the plan that he'd had all along. He'd adjourn the trial and then he'd get a group of judges together and they'd make the final decision on whether necessity was a defense to homicide. But this was a huge trial. The media was playing close attention. Also paying close attention. They were playing hopscotch right outside the courtroom.

That's right they were. And I think they looked silly. Well with those wigs on. Those wigs got some air time for sure. When the special verdict came out the papers wanted to print that special verdict. Yeah. And right as they were about to print that special verdict. Yeah. And right as they were about to do that, the judge, you know, kind of did a little read through on the special verdict that he'd written. And he realized, oh, shit. I fucked up. In the special verdict, he described the Mary Marionette.

Oh, God. It was a minionette. It was a marionette of the minionette, actually. It was like he made a little model. And everyone said to him, Judge, this is a waste

of time. And he's like, you know what? This is my art. Yeah. And art is not a waste of time. I don't feel the need

to explain my art to you warren okay that's what i said great anyway um he described it as a yacht and he described the lifeboat as an open boat he'd forgotten to establish that the minionette was tied to England and that the lifeboat had been on the minionette and yada, yada, yada. By omitting those facts that don't really seem like that big a deal. Yeah. He just lost the most basic and crucial argument, which was whether this court had jurisdiction over what happened. Oh, shit. Mm-hmm.

And so the judge kind of panicked and he used some old-timey whiteout, I'm assuming. Just little carrot symbols and just wrote them in there. This is what I meant to say. There was also a kerfuffle over whether they could really just

bring in a bunch of judges to decide this. Yeah, what? I mean, you know, that part is also kind of boring but you know whatever they must have reached a resolution pretty quickly because on december 4th lord chief justice lord coleridge which is too many lords i said was there two lords in there that's what it says he gets two lords he's a lord chief justice lord? He's a lord sandwich? That's right, Brandi.

Are you jealous? It really makes you think about what you've accomplished in your life, doesn't it? I have zero lords. And zero... Wait, what's the... What's the lady version of a lord? Lady? Lady.

Lady. My goodness. My goodness. My goodness. How embarrassing. Anyway. He was on the Queen's bench division. Sure. Which is a thing.

And he's like, let's all decide this kid. Do you have an extra powdery wig? Of course he did. And they started this case by having someone read aloud the transcript of the first trial, which sounds terrible. And at that point, the defense was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Someone used old timey whiteout on that special verdict because that is not the special verdict that the jury agreed to. Ha, caught you, bitch. And everyone agreed, like, yeah, the defense is right.

But I guess they didn't care because the panel of judges was like, hey, you know, yeah. Easy. That's not great. But we've just decided we have jurisdiction here. So there you go. Yada, yada, yada. The judges were like, look, you two dudes are definitely guilty of murder. And if you'll give us a few days, we're going to write out our decision.

And, you know, you don't really have an option. Yeah. So you just have to wait. Okay. In that decision, they said that necessity is not a defense for murder. Here's part of what they wrote, and I think it's interesting. It must not be supposed that in refusing to admit temptation to be an excuse for crime, it is forgotten how terrible the temptation was, how awful the suffering, how hard in such trials to keep

the judgment straight and the conduct pure. We are often compelled to set up standards we cannot reach ourselves and to lay down rules which we could not ourselves satisfy. But a man has no right to declare temptation to be an excuse, though he might himself have yielded to it, nor allow compassion for the criminal to change or weaken in any manner the legal definition of the crime. Really hate the use of the word temptation there. You do? Yeah, because, well, I think it undermines what was really going on there. They weren't just like, ooh, tempted with a delicious feast.

They had to eat a man to survive. Yeah. That sounds like a necessity to me. And that necessity should be a defense for murder. But I'm not a barrister bear, so what the fuck do i know you're not even a lady and with that the judges sentenced captain tom dudley and edwin stevens to death holy shit but they recommended mercy i think it was one of those deals where if you're found guilty of murder, you're automatically blah, blah, blah. Tom and Edwin only served six months in prison.

They were released on May 20th, 1885. This case drives you crazy, doesn't it? I don't like it either. I don't like it. I get that it's a really slippery slope absolutely i do but i kind of feel like that's why we have this system yes yeah there's a gravestone for richard parker in the churchyard near his hometown, and the gravestone contains two Bible verses. One reads, though he slay me, yet will I trust in him. And the other says, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Would you like to hear a strange true story? Yeah.

All right. In 1837, about 50 years before this horrible shipwreck, Edgar Allan Poe wrote a story about four men who were shipwrecked and who went for as long as they could without food and then decided to draw straws to decide who should be killed and eaten. And the person who drew the short straw was the cabin boy, who just happened to be named Richard Parker. You're fucking kidding me. No, I am not. Oh, that just gave me goosebumps! Is that not bizarre? Yes! So that's the story of the Minionette.

Holy shit! Yeah. yes so that's the story of the minionette holy shit yeah what the fuck were they supposed to do i don't know and i get that you're trying to set a legal precedent but well i maybe we don't pick this like very rare occasion situation to set legal precedent. No, I think you have to. I think you have to pick like a really extreme. I mean I get the logic of it. It's like we pick this really extreme one. So we kind of declare once and all and for all like no necessity is never a consideration.

I just don't agree. I don't agree. Yeah, I don't agree either. They also, you know, said basically that it wasn't right that they'd chosen Richard to kill because you don't know for sure that he's going to die. Yeah. Again, I'm thinking, well, my God, if he's in a coma. Yeah. I think it only makes sense to go for him.

Yeah. Wow. Wow. That story is nuts. And the fucking Edgar Allen Poe thing. I knew I'd get you with that. Jesus. Edgar Allen Poe. Holy shit.

I'm not getting on any fucking boats with you. I was going to offer you my my body but then take it back because i'd be like you know what you're fine i was gonna die anyway so it doesn't matter that's a spirit brandy you know i think we ought to do another ad let's do it and now we're back from the ad and now we're gonna read some questions from the discord discord how do you get into a discord all you have to do is join our patreon at the five dollar level or higher what what clark breckenridge aka little nut to know, did you guys have favorite spice grills growing up? Oh, no.

Not us. Not us. We didn't play favorites. Of course we fucking did. I was sporty spice. And I was obviously ginger. Obviously. Duh.

Ridiculous question. Because I'm a heartbreaker. I'm very cool. And i leave when you're still wanting more oh oh here's a good question sky paul insworth wants to know brandy you have to swap your black wardrobe for another color that isn't navy or gray what color do you do oh my gosh you should see her face right now. I'd hate that. I don't like any colors. Okay, the question wasn't

do you like this idea? It was you have to do it. I don't, no thank you. No, that's it, no. No, you have to choose. It can't be black, can't be navy, can't be gray.

Boom, choose it. Bang. Dark. She's going to try to wiggle out of this Skype. We're not here for it. We will not go on break until you answer this fucking question. Can I do like dark blue that's just like a shade lighter than navy?

No. No. I don't like any colors. Brandy. It's never happening well yes it's not gonna happen this is a totally made-up scenario which is why apart from black and gray the next color in my wardrobe that i have the most of is red because i have chief stuff and KU stuff. So, fuck, I guess fucking red and I would hate every second of it. My God. I'd just throw myself into the sea. Skype, thanks a lot for asking that question.

Oh, what like it's hard asks, what's the dumbest thing that makes you cry? Mine is watching sheepdog herding videos. Fucking everything makes me cry. I watch TikToks and I'm like, oh, my God, it's so beautiful. I think the dumbest thing that makes me cry because you wouldn't think about this making you cry is people is like when sports like when athletes have like this big, successful moment. Like when athletes have like this big successful moment because like I just know how much work they put into like their whole life, like honing that skill and like mastering their craft of whatever sport and to be on like the biggest stage and be successful like that. Just I love it. I just oh, I've been fucking living this week over this guy, Michael Block, from the PGA.

Did you see this? No. Okay. So Michael Block is this guy who just got this exception to the PGA Tour. He's a golf pro. He's not a professional golfer. He runs a pro shop at a golf course in California, and he gives golf lessons. He's a good golfer, but he's not a professional golfer. So he got to play at the PGA Championship this past weekend.

And he fucking finished in the top 15. That's incredible. He got a hole-in-one on the fucking fly. They called it a dunk. Like, literally, it fucking landed in the hole. Didn't roll into the hole. It dunked into the hole. It was amazing.

I just happened to be at my dad's house cutting his hair when it happened. And my dad watches golf, so I saw it. Like, I don't watch fucking golf. But, like, it was amazing. Did you cry? I got emotional, yes. I didn't actually cry, but I did get emotional. And then, like, all of these interviews with him.

So then he got invited to compete at the next PGA tournament. Because he finished in the 15th, he automatically qualifies for next year. That's so cool. And he won almost, his purse for the event was like almost $300,000. Yes. They asked him what his previous biggest winning was. And he was like $75,000 on such and such date. He knew exactly what tournament he knew when he went. And they're like, yeah, wow, you really know. And he's like before that it was like forty five hundred dollars from, you know, that whatever tournament like high water. Yeah, that was my. And he's like, yeah. And then he just won three hundred thousand dollars. That's so cool. Yeah, it's amazing. That's so cool.

Yeah, it's amazing. I don't know what the dumb thing is that makes me cry. Not sports. Never sports. Also, OK, so the other thing that's been really exciting for me this week, I love people know I love college basketball, love college basketball. I do not watch the NBA. I don't like the NBA. It is not the same game. I have very strong opinions about this.

Anyway, my boy, Christian Braun, who played, well, he goes by Brown, but it's spelled Braun. Anyway, Christian Braun, he was on the team when KU won the national championship in 2022. Anyway, he plays for the Nuggets now, and they just qualified for the NBA finals for the first time ever. He's playing in the NBA Finals after just winning the fucking college championship. That's fucking amazing. And Kristen nodded off

at the table anyway. You have exhausted my... Listen, I was with you for the PGA stuff. I was maybe faking some enthusiasm but I'm done now. I'm tapped out.

Anyway. I like sports. I often get emotional. Ooh. True Crime and Taco Bell ask, what's worse, trying a new restaurant that sucks or going to a favorite restaurant that is off their game that day. I think going to a favorite restaurant and having it not be good. Because then you're like, wait, is it going to be like this every time? You question coming back.

Yeah. Yeah. If you go to a new restaurant that sucks, you're just like, well, I won't come here again. And you just blame Norm for trying to broaden your horizons. Yes. That's exactly what happens. Ooh. ZKB94 says, Brandy, I just started dating a woman with kids.

When did you feel comfortable around Jack? Okay, so this is such a complicated question, I think, because I felt comfortable around Jack immediately. Like there was never an awkwardness with like me being in Jack's life or Jack being in my life. enough so that Jackson knows that like I love him and care about him and I am a active parent in his life and then not overstepping what is what is my role yeah yeah so that is a thing that I think about and work on constantly and I don't expect that that will ever go away because it's really important for me that Jack understands that he is an extremely important part of my life. Yeah. Yeah. No, that would be really tough.

It is. It's a really – I think being a step-parent is a really tough role. I think being a step-parent is a really tough role. Something that I look back now because I have had step-parents since I was, I mean, six years old. Yeah. And they were just parents. They had very active roles in my life. And I am very much who I am because of my parents and my step-parents. want Jackson to have that same that same feeling when he gets older.

Yeah. You sweetie pie. Thank you. Oh, Jenny Furious wants to know, will there be a bonus episode in June? Yes, there will. Absolutely. So we take two breaks a year, but we never take a break on Patreon. That's right.

There will still be a bonus episode. There will still be a bonus episode. There will still be a Zoom call. And there will still be photos of Brandy's tits on Patreon. Those are not on there. At the $5 level or higher. I'm just trying to get that one creepy old man to sign back up for us. Nanya Beeswax says, not a question, but Brandy, I used your I need someone to help me kill bugs on my profile, and I'm now dating the man I'm pretty sure I'm going to marry. Ooh.

See, it worked for me, too. It's a good line. It's a good line. Yeah. It is a good line. It is. Makes the guy feel powerful. that's right it makes you seem like a damsel in distress surrounded by bugs living in your own filth

oh when i was a district manager says brandy i just got lash extensions yesterday give me your tips i'm also an eyeliner wearer and i'm worried how they'll hold up. Okay. I have a very specific routine and it works perfectly for me. So I will let you in. I get amazing lash retention by like, I go two weeks between fills and my lashes look almost the same when I go in for my fill as they do when I just got them done. Okay. So to remove my eyeliner daily, I use a Q-tip and micellar water. So I do that. And then like every – it depends on how – like, okay, if I do that and then I just comb the lashes out and they're good, I won't shampoo them every day. Maybe every other day.

But then you use a really good lash shampoo just on your fingertips, really suds them up really good, rinse them off pat pat them dry with a towel comb comb them out with your little spoolie so i do yeah like one day just take the eyeliner off with the micellar water and then the next day shampoo the lashes that's that's my routine and then um also like yeah you gotta comb them comb them regularly with your with your. But yeah, micellar water and a really good quality lash shampoo. Those are your two best bets. Yours look really good. Thank you. I think I get scared of lash extensions because of all the reality TV I watch.

Yeah. You see some really bad. Why do some of them look so bad? Some of them do look really bad. Oh, my Lord. Yeah. so bad some of them do look really bad oh my lord yeah especially the ones like i i mean they're clearly wearing no other makeup right but they've got the thickest fullest longest lashes you've ever seen in your life yes they've got an awning on top of their eyes yes mama mia yeah yeah yeah

i always associate awnings with Italian restaurant. I want to go up to all these women and ask for breadsticks. No. What's. Why do you think some of them look so bad? I think.

I think they're. You know. They're going to a bad tech. Well I think they're probably just too long or too thick. I'm sorry. I just slurped.

That's great. As I'm talking about how gross other people are. I think they're just doing too much with them. OK. Yeah. I see. Yeah. I just slurped into the microphone. That's great. As I'm talking about how gross other people are. Yeah. I think they're just doing too much with them. Okay. Yeah. I see.

Yeah. I mean, I very clearly have lash extensions. Nobody's mistaking these for my natural lashes, but they're not like... Is it just that I'm so used to you having them? Because to me, I'm like, that's her. That's her natural body. No, I still... I do a more natural version, but like...

Yeah. Nobody's lashes are this thick. No one looks this good naturally. No. No, just still, I do a more natural version, but like, nobody's lashes are this thick. No one looks this good naturally. No, just naturally, nobody has lashes this thick. I mean, London kind of does, but she's rude, so. Just so you know, I woke up like this. It's fine.

Everything is fine. Once again, how'd the mammogram go? Oh. Oh, oh, I'm so glad you fudging ass. Okay. Here's the situation. Sure.

Ray, Ray bird, bubba bird, bird, bird, bird is the word. Yeah. So,

oh my gosh, I guess it was 2021 when she and my dad were living with us. Like since they were in town, this was such a crazy time. Like so they'd been RVing. Yeah. They got hit by the possibly drunk driver. They came and lived with us. And since they were like in network for their insurance, my mom got a mammogram.

Yeah. And discovered that she had breast cancer. She's doing great. She had a lumpectomy. You know, it's all good. But, of course, you know, she's like, you know, you should get a mammogram. And I really didn't want to. Yeah.

And everyone told me, because everyone is a liar, that mammograms are fine. No big deal. So I show up for my mammogram and like you're supposed to start at 40. I'm but a young Dewey 37 year old. But, you know, because of my family history. Yep. Oh, my gosh. I didn't even tell you this part. Brandy, you would have died. OK. So I go I go to this place and it's very nice. Yeah. And the first thing they do is they sit you in like basically a hidey hole closet. And it's like got a bench and, you know, a little smock to put on. Yeah. And a couple magazines that look like they were touched maybe 10 years ago. So she tells me, okay, you know, let them hooters out. Yeah. Put on the little smock thing. I'm like, OK, close the door behind me.

Take off my shirt. Take off my bra. Put on the little thingy. Yeah. And I sit down on the bench and I'm just waiting for my next moment. And this random woman opens the door. I didn't realize there was a lock on the door. the door. I didn't realize there was a lock on the door. This random nurse like walks in with this other patient into my hidey hole. Yeah. And, you know, I just laughed. Right. I would have died.

You would have died. I immediately thought of you. Yes. Like this. This would have just killed me. That's how I go. Don't worry about breast cancer. This is what it does. Anyway, so like, you know, I'm in my hidey hole. And of course, they've got all these signs about how early detection saves lives. And it does. And that's why people anyway. So the lady takes me to this place. She has me set my boob on a slab. Oh, my God.

Then they smushed it all around. Smushed it from the top. Smushed it from the sides. Yeah. And the first thing I said to her as that thing smushed me was, people have lied to me. Because everyone's like, oh, it's not a big deal. And it's not. But it is.

Because everyone's like, it's not a big deal. And it's not. But it is. If people are telling you that it's not a big deal, it's because they just don't want you to die from cancer. Yeah. So just think on that. Yeah. So I complained to my mother. Later that day, of course, she wanted to know what the deal was.

And, you know, it turned out fine. I got my results. I'm good. Yeah. I was on the phone with my dad and I said and he didn't know that I'd had a mammogram. So I just out of context asked him to punch mom in the tit for me. Yeah. As revenge. Sure. And so anyway, I you know, mom's on speaker phone because, of course, why not? She's what? What? What? And I said said you lied to me you said it was no big thing and she goes well

yeah i did lie okay so then she got sassy and she's like you know what's more painful than a mammogram what breast cancer yes yes yeah yeah yeah so i'm so glad that your mammogram came back. Me too. I was scared shitless. Yeah, of course. So what's what's wild about this whole thing is that six months after your mom was diagnosed, my mom was diagnosed with breast cancer. Very similar situation. They caught it very early. She was able to have a lumpectomy and radiation and she's cancer free now, which is wonderful. She's having negative reactions to her estrogen blockers, which her breast cancer was hormonal. And so she has to be on estrogen blockers for like 10 years. And she's having horrible side effects to them.

But that's the thing, like not, you know, kind of what your mom says when my mom is like talking about her negative side effects. And we're trying to figure out, you know, what we can do to help alleviate them. I'm like, our reminder is that like like it's still better than having cancer of course it sucks absolutely yeah yeah it's still better than having cancer yeah it's funny that was that was such a weird time yes it was um yeah for both of our moms. Yeah. Yeah, so if anyone's ever heard this story, I think I've told it on the podcast about the time when my sister and I went over to my, you know, to check on my mom after she'd had surgery. And Kyla and my dad were tasked with making some soup for her. Yeah. And my dad, my dad,

like, it was one of those cans of soup and he just filled, you know, you're supposed to fill the water all the way up to the mark.

Yeah. And he was like, no, he just did like halfway and Kyla was like, well, no, dad, that's not how it works. And he goes,

well, she's not that hungry so she's not going to want that much soup. That's not how it works? That's not how it works not how it works i think i've told that story yes i think you have yeah but yeah that that was after her lumpectomy so anyway i don't mean to scare anybody out of getting a mammogram go do it it's absolutely do it but but these these bitches who are like it's no big deal just know they're lying bitches who just don't want you to get cancer what if you have smaller boobs is it

easier if you have smaller boobs i wouldn't know a thing about that well i'm just no here's wondering here's what i was told yeah i was told that since i have dense breasts yeah it's more painful okay if you got some fatty titties yeah you're having you're having a great time. Yeah, I got fatty titties, so I think I'm just going to have a great time. Oh, well, you're going to fucking love it. Yeah. Great. You're welcome. Happy for you.

Should we do Supreme Court inductions? I think we should. Yeah. This week, we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. Celebrity crushes. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon

at the $7 level. Or higher, if you want to. If you're feeling spendy. Lori Gosselin. Patrick Swayze. Maria Pascarella. Usher. Greg Russell.

All the Baywatch ladies. Dorothy Scales. Hey Arnold. Dorothy Scales. Hey Arnold. Tuscan potatoes. Rick Springfield. Sharon Hood. Michael J. Fox. Quinn Owens.

Hayden Christensen as Anakin. Justine Australian style. McNeil. Brandon Lee. Anna Annabelle Brooks. Jonathan Brandes. Lisa Palmer. Jordan Knight from New Kids on the Block. Oh, shit. Sorry, Sarah D. Let's start that again.

Sarah D. Danny from New Kids on the Block. Crystal Hamer. John Bofie? Is that what you were going to say? Were you Hamer. John Bovee? Is that what you were going to say? Were you going to say John Bovee? No, I think I was going to say the whole name. John Bon Jovi?

Yeah, but then I realized she hadn't put John. Anyway, anyway. Bon Jovi. Marjolaine. Katie Lang. Confirmed a few things. Dot, dot, dot. Erin Rivkin.

Sean Cassidy. Erin Slott. Ooh, Kyle from Hey Dude. Yes. Ooh, yeah, I loved Hey Dude. Lindsay Mast. Devin Sawa. Stephanie Minnick.

Jensen Ackles. Colby Like the Cheese. Jeremy Sumter. Leslie Wishman. George Harrison. Brenna Weber. Nick Carter. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Bushman, George Harrison, Brenna Weber, Nick Carter.

Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next month.

Oh. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia.

So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the book Cannibalism and the Common Law, colon, the story of the tragic last voyage of the Minionette and the strange legal proceedings to which it gave rise by A.W.B. Simpson. Jesus! An article from the University of Chicago Law Review titled, In Warm Blood. I hate that title.

Some historical and procedural aspects of Regina versus Dudley and Stevens. Also, newspapers.com and Wikipedia. I got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, an episode of 2020, the court record, or Murder, an episode of 2020, The Court Record, an article for Medium, and the Los Angeles Times. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.