Let's Go To Court! - 258: The Massie Affair & a Disappearance

Episode Date: July 5, 2023

One thing is certain: *Something* happened to Thalia Massie on the night of September 12, 1931. She’d stormed out of a party at the Ala Wai Inn alone, annoyed with her husband and his Navy friends. Later, when a car stopped to pick her up, Thalia had injuries to her face. She said she’d been assaulted and robbed. When her husband came home that night, she told him that she’d been beaten and raped by a group of Hawaiian men. Police quickly rounded up five young men. Then Brandi tells us about the disappearance of Katherine Heckel. When Katherine never returned from her lunch break on July 15, 1991, her friends and family were concerned. She had two young children at home – she wouldn’t leave them voluntarily. Naturally, investigators looked into her husband, John. He had an airtight alibi. So, suspicions turned on other men in Katherine’s life. Police discovered a good suspect, but the case stalled out. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: An episode of American Experience, titled, “The Island Murder” “Massie Trials,” entry on Famous Trials by Douglas O. Linder An episode of the podcast Crimes of the Centuries, titled, “The Massie Affair” In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “She Didn’t Come Home” episode Dateline “Katherine Heckel” chillingcrimes.com “Groves’ ex-wife talks about case after 27 years” by Lana Muthler, Williamsport Sun-Gazette “Timeline of cold case that endured 'bumps and bruises' over 27 years” by John Beauge, PennLive.com “Pa. man found guilty of third-degree murder in 27-year-old case where no body was found” by John Beauge, PennLive.com “Pa. man gets maximum penalty for death of woman whose body was never found” by John Beauge, PennLive.com “Commonwealth of Pennsylvania v. Loyd Waitman Groves” justia.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 47+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll be talking about the Massey Affair. And I'll be talking about a disappearance.

Oh, will you? I will. Welcome back, welcome back, welcome back! We are back in the sex dungeon! And we got an upgrade! Um, everyone, we have our own tables now. We are back in the sex dungeon. And we got an upgrade. Everyone, we have our own tables now. We do.

Individual tables. I feel like I need to bring in personal items for my table. Like a little picture of like David and the kids. One of those like, I don't know, tape dispensers. Are you worried at all that I'll swap out the picture with a picture of myself? Oh, you will 100% do that. I will absolutely do that. Even just like paste your face over each of the faces in the picture.

I, you know, you know what I'd like to do? In my, in my mind, you've got a kind of a cute little sexy yet office appropriate picture of David. Yeah. And I replace it with a photo of me in the exact same pose. No. Calm. You wish. Calm down.

In the exact same pose. Oh. Similar outfit, but a little sexier. Oh, yeah. One upping the man. You're just one upping David. And then it becomes a contest until months from now when it's just a straight photo of his dong. You think I'm putting a picture of David's dong on my desk?

If it got competitive, I think you would. Oh, you're right. Also, everyone, you should know that Norman is not in the house today, which means that we are podcasting unsupervised. We are unsupervised. That's why I was really worried that my mic's not in the right place. I don't know. Our clock looks pretty good, but are the waves how they're supposed to look on

the recording thing? Okay, you mentioned these things. People don't know that you're obsessed with the size of the clock on our recording equipment. Also, the dogs are in here. They are. Will they behave the whole time? No. But, you know, let's see how it goes. Yeah, let's all find out together. Brandy, what do you know about the Massey affair?, you know, let's see how it goes. Yeah, let's all find out together. Brandi, what do you know about the Massey affair? Do you know anything at all? Hawaii. That's all I know. Is that it?

Wow, what an idiot. Yeah, that's really all. I've heard like an overview of it at one point in my life, and I remember exactly. You seem really excited to hear about it again. No, I'm very excited. We've never done a Hawaii case. We haven't? I'm pretty sure we have not.

Dang. Yeah. We are slacking. That's right. And so it falls on me, as it often does, to pick up all the slack on this podcast, Brandy. Okay. Okay. Shout outs to an episode of American Experience. Okay. Okay. Shout outs to

an episode of American Experience. Oh. You've told me what this is before. It's PBS. That's right. Okay. Donnie just growled at you because you didn't know it was a PBS show. Because I have no respect for PBS. I apologize. Donnie thinks she's better than you. She is. Is she right? She might

be. If she watches PBS she is. Donnie also licked her own butthole this morning, so think about that for a while. Anyway, that episode... You don't know that I didn't. How... You know what? I'm too classy to ask follow-up questions. Oh, really? I am

too classy. As you probably noticed, alright? If I wasn't classy, then I would replace that picture of David with just a picture of my beef. Like, there would be no slow escalation. It'd just be boom, beef. Yeah, right in my face. Just the way God intended. Anyhow, as I was trying to tell you, I watched an episode of American Experience.

Yes, on PBS. Which is a PBS program. You have to hold your pinky up the entire time you're watching it. I know you exclusively watch True TV, but I watched American Experience. The episode was called The Island of Murder. Isn't a show you love on True TV? Couldn't be me. I'm very classy.

Don't you love Impractical jokers and that is on true tv listen one of the jokers left the show um it's a whole dramatic thing i want to know more but reddit doesn't seem to know and so i've exhausted all my gossip sites there we go okay all right this is by the way this is top of the show sorry People have been starved for our show. I apologize. We're weeks now. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Also, sign up for our Patreon.

Oh, yeah. Do that, please. We have a Patreon. There's cool stuff on it. Go check it out. Hot new bonus episode out now. Yeah.

What did we talk about? Well, you really did it. I brought the big brass balls to the bonus episode. I did Corpsewood Manor. And I covered a real creepy douchebag. You did. Which I realize describes a lot of my cases.

It does. In fact. But do you ever tire of hearing about a big creepy douchebag? No, you do not. Anyhow. You can get that now and 47 other bonus episodes on our Patreon. That's $5 level or higher. Go there.

Do it. My God. Okay. Back to my case. We're not even in your case yet. No. I have shouted out one source. Okay.

What else you got? What do you think? I don't know. FamousTrials.com. Oh, yeah. Okay. Professor Douglas O. Linder. Dougie O. in the house.

Very good write-up on FamousTrials.com. Those are the two main sources for this story. Very aggressive, too. You're holding up. Yeah. Brandi, are you ready? I am ready. For a horrible historic story.

Great. Let's set the scene, shall we? Let's. Historic story. Great. Let's set the scene, shall we? Let's. The people couldn't see the choreo I was doing while I did that.

They missed out. Okay. It was September 12th, 1931. Why do you look so afraid? I don't. I'm focused. It's my focused face. Okay. What's the date?

I don't know. Not very focused, were you? September 12th, 1931. In beautiful Honolulu, Hawaii. Mmm. And as usual, Thalia Massey and her naval officer husband, Thomas Massey, were mad at each other. As usual? Yeah, as usual.

They were always mad at each other? Yeah, pretty much. They had a terrible marriage. Oh, great. Okay. Their usual? Yeah, as usual. They were always mad at each other? Yeah, pretty much. They had a terrible marriage. Oh, great. Okay. Their age gap probably didn't help. What was their age gap? Okay, well, I'm going to start you with how old Thalia was when they got married.

You ready? Yeah. 16. I'm so uncomfortable with it! And Thomas, or Tommy, as he preferred to be called because he thought he was a fucking baby, had been 22 when they got married. Yeah, that's a lot of life difference there. Sure is. 22.

Sure is. One of them is still in fucking high school. You love it, do you? I don't. Okay, well, for simplicity's sake, you might love that everything about their marriage was bad. A lot of sources blamed Thalia for that, and she definitely wasn't blameless. Oh, blameless. She definitely wasn't blameless.

Uh-huh. But I don't think Tommy was blameless either. So suck on that. Kill you to call him Tommy. I hate that. You're a grown man. You can't be Tommy anymore. Should be illegal.

Thalia and Tommy both drank heavily. They fought constantly. Neighbors called the cops on them quite a bit. Friends said that it wasn't uncommon for Thalia and Tommy to go out and, you know, start arguing. Thalia would bite Tommy sometimes. What? And then storm off into the night like a vampire. Stop it.

I know. It's not funny. Dottie just growled. Okay. I had a dream that London was being hunted by a group of vampires who wanted to turn her. And no one was taking me seriously when I was trying to get her hidden away so that this could not happen. If I recall, in your dream, your stepdad talked about the opportunities to monetize. Yeah. So in my dream, Steve, my stepdad said, you know, you got to look at the bright side of this.

If they do turn her, I mean, we could start a whole YouTube channel. People would be very into that. So he was taking you seriously. And he was trying to set you up for your future. Grateful? No. Hateful? Yes. May I go on or do you have more stories to tell us about your dreams? I'm sure my mother loved listening to that. I'm sure she did. Why do I have dreams? I mean, my scariest dream I've ever had in my life is about vampires. So apparently that's how my anxiety manifests is through vampires. That's why you could never eat Count Chocula.

I also have dreams about bears, which I've read is also an anxiety thing. Well, of course it is. Yeah. You're being chased by a bear. What did you think it was? A happiness dream? No, my dream that I have all the time is that I'm in a cabin somewhere, and I'm opening a screen door.

Actually, a sliding glass door, excuse me. And I'm trying to keep bears from coming in the house while I'm opening this door. Why are you opening it? That's a great question. Let me stop you right there. Quit trying to open the door. Quit trying to open the fucking door. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. What are you, covered in honey also? I'm just naturally delicious. Okay. May I continue? Yes. Yeah. Okay, great.

Tommy's Navy friends really didn't like Talia. Thalia, Talia, I'm going to call her both and somewhere we'll get it right. Okay, excellent. She didn't really like them either. She thought she was too good for them. And to be fair, she was very fancy. Thalia's mother, Grace Fortescue, was the granddaughter of the first president of the National Geographic Society, Brandy. Also, ring ring. Hello? Brandy, it's me, Kristen. I called to tell you that Grace's dad was Alexander Graham Bell's cousin.

Really? Yeah. Well, while that whole interaction was interesting, that is a cool fact. You're not allowed to shame me, ma'am. When at the top of the show you're like, I had a dream about vampires, and also sometimes I dream that bears are trying to get into a cabin. And I'm also leaving the door wide open for them. No, I'm not leaving it open.

I'm opening it. Like a bear slut. Like a bear slut? It's true. Anyway, she was a pretty big deal. Are you impressed? I am impressed. Yes.

Also, Thalia's dad was Major Roland Granville Fortescue. And he was, hmm, I don't know what the term is anymore. Some say illegitimate son. Oh. Some say bastard. Bastard, yeah. I say, you know. Just son.

Just son. Yeah. Of Robert Roosevelt, uncle of Theodore Roosevelt. Yes. Yes. Suck on that Theodore Roosevelt. Yes. Yes. Suck on that. All right. So this was a very well-connected family.

Yeah. They were a huge deal in Washington, D.C. But I have something super embarrassing to tell you. Okay. Is it that you farted because I heard it? First of all, that's a normal bodily function and i'm not embarrassed at all all right now i am embarrassed for you for being uncouth i wouldn't know anything about that no you're the most couth the couthiest if you will you know what's so fucking weird i was just about to say that i was a couthiest

okay on to the super embarrassing thing oh yes it takes a lot of vulnerability to say this, but Thalia's parents, they weren't rich. And by that, I mean they weren't like super rich. They obviously had to be fairly rich. Yeah. Oh, no. Yeah, I know. You need a minute? Yeah, let me gather myself here.

They traveled in all the right circles, and they were snooty snoot snoots but raleigh blew through his inheritance brandy and he wasn't fond of working which i relate to and he just said her dad's name raleigh well his name was roland but they called him raleigh or roly probably not roly roly no roly sounds fucking ridiculous it's probably Roley if his name's Roland Roley no Roley sounds fucking ridiculous Roley is short for Roland I know but they'd call him Roley Polly

you know how sometimes you know the shortening of the name you kind of mix up shut up

the important thing is is he got some inheritance and he didn't want to work okay and he

his game plan was just to wait for the next rich relative to die well yeah you've got rich relatives even even kind of you know outskirty relatives you're probably getting some money each time someone dies honestly it's not the worst financial plan but grace was really pissed off by this whole thing. She had to resort to giving blowjobs in a theater. No. No. She had to teach her friends how to play bridge as a way to make money, which some sources say that. Practically the same thing.

She had a dick in every hole. The point is, even though Thalia's even though Thalia's parents didn't have the amount of money that they might have liked, they still managed to raise Thalia and her sisters

with this very important lesson. Sometimes, when you don't have a ton of money, you just have to know deep down in your soul that you are inherently better than everyone because you are loosely related to Alexander Graham Bell. Okay, that's a good lesson for us all. Maybe not for you because I don't think you are related to him. I am not loosely related to him at all. Important thing is Thalia seemed to soak

that message up pretty well. Was that like a fun fact she threw around about herself? I don't know that she did, but I mean. Just drop it in conversation. Her mom was a real piece of work. Okay. Okay.

Okay. And I'm not just mad because she had visible cheekbones. Okay. That is part of it, though. It does play a role, but also she was a complete douche. The other thing is, now, Thalia, she's a mess, too, but she's also really young. Yeah. So I want to cut her a bit of slack.

A bit of slack, yes. And she was dealing with a lot. But at one point, Thalia went to a University of Hawaii psychologist to participate on a study in, oh, I wrote in sex and marriage, but I meant on sex and marriage. I thought you meant in sex, like bugs. Very different thing. Very different thing. As part of that study, she filled out a questionnaire and talked to a psychiatrist. And at the end of their discussion, the psychiatrist was so alarmed that he said, this is beyond my expertise. Oh, wow.

You need serious psychiatric help. Oh, shit. And because this was olden times, I actually technically don't know that he said that to her. But I do know that Kit just shook her entire body next to the microphone. And I also know that the psychiatrist called Tommy and told him, your wife is telling me stuff that's beyond my expertise. She needs serious psychiatric help. And then Dottie shook her entire body. This is going great. This is going really great.

I'm glad Norm's not here to keep the dogs. This is the 19 minute stretch. It does kind of take me back to when we had Peanut recording with us. Yes, Peanut used to be with us all the time when we were recording. But you know what? She was a very old dog, so she didn't move around a lot. She just laid on the floor the whole time. Sometimes she farted. She did. And sometimes she would let out like a little protective bark.

Yeah. Yeah. These dogs, these wild ones right here, they might be a little more to handle. Oh, Dottie's on you. Oh, Dottie and I are friends now. Kind of. Oh, my God. So she needed help. Doesn't seem that she got that help.

Should I crate them? I probably should, huh? No, they're fine. They're going to be sad if they're crated. Girls, you're on probation. I love that I'm talking about crating them and so they're sitting by you now. At some point, Tommy told Thalia that he wanted a divorce. Oh, wow.

She didn't want that? What kind of stuff was she saying in this? I'm not really sure. Uh-huh. But you're going to learn a lot more about her and you might get some ideas. Okay. Thalia didn't want a divorce. So Tommy agreed to stay married to her, but told her that she would have to go on probation.

She'd have to follow a set of rules. Marital probation? Yeah, you know, that's a thing. Fuck off, Tommy. Uh-huh. I don't know what the rules were exactly. Okay. I wish I did.

But I'm guessing that on the night of Saturday, September 12th, 1931, when Tommy said he wanted to go out to a club to go dancing with a bunch of his Navy buddies and their wives, that Thalia went along not because she wanted to, but because she kind of had to. Yeah. wanted to, but because she kind of had to. Yeah. So the two of them showed up at the Aloy Inn, where they'd be doing a lot of dancing and drinking, and Tommy proceeded to spend most of his time ignoring her and dancing with his friend's wives. That's so douchey. Yeah.

Thalia was pissed. Yeah. do she yeah Thalia was pissed yeah at around 11 30 one of the navy dudes got up to go to the bathroom and Thalia took his seat and when he got back from the bathroom he told her he wanted his chair back and she said no and he called her a louse and she slapped him across the face Mm-hmm. Okay. And then she's like, I'm leaving. She took off from the club on foot. Tommy knew that his wife had taken off, but, you know, he evidently didn't care too much. She did this sometimes. She left parties. So there she was. She was in a floor-length green party dress, walking alone late at night on an unlit road. It's very dangerous. Right.

Yeah. And something happened. Mm-hmm. At around 1 a.m., Thalia flagged down a car. People driving the car stopped and picked her up, and they were pretty alarmed. It was obviously dark out, but one of the women in the car noticed that Thalia had a gash on one of her cheeks, and her face was really swollen. Thalia explained that she'd been attacked and robbed. The people who'd picked her up were like, oh my God. And they offered to take her to a hospital, take her to the police.

And she said no. She just wanted to go home. So they drove her home. And after Thalia had been home for a little while, Tommy called her. And she told him something awful has happened. Come home. And she told him something awful has happened. Come home.

Tommy came home and Thalia told him that she'd been gang raped by a group of locals. Wow. Tommy insisted on calling the police. Yeah. So the police came and they talked to Thalia. I think it's Thalia. Okay. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm never as concerned about getting the white people's names right. I'll just be honest.

It was clear that something had happened. Yeah. She was drunk. Her lip was busted. Her jaw was swollen. One source said that her jaw was broken. I mean, she'd clearly been badly beaten. At some point, she told the police that she'd been attacked by four or five Hawaiian men. She said they'd pulled her into their car, driven away, then stopped, dragged her into some bushes, and raped her six or seven times. Oh, my gosh. It was a horrible story. Yeah. The officers asked her if she could describe the men, but she couldn't.

She had really bad vision. Even in the daytime, she had bad vision. And it had been really dark out out so she couldn't describe her attackers just that they were locals the officer how could she be sure that they were locals i mean i don't know okay they weren't white brandy yeah i get it do you i do the officers asked her to describe the vehicle they'd been riding in. But again, it had been too dark. The best she could say was that the vehicle had been old and it had a flapping top.

Which, I don't know, is that like old-timey convertible? Convertible, I would guess, yeah. This was a very disturbing crime. Clearly, these guys needed to be caught. Yeah. This was a very disturbing crime. Clearly, these guys needed to be caught. Yeah. Very quickly, investigators got what seemed like a break in the case. Did your dogs hold that in your car? You know what?

I'm trying to be a professional podcaster. And I was going to ignore the fact that my dog deeply inhaled from my vishine. All you had to do was sit there and pretend like you didn't see. Could you do it? No. There are certain things that I'm

willing to not, you know, announce that Donnie's been licking my toes for the last two minutes, but when she just goes back and falls deep into your crotch. And who could blame her? You know, they say it's like reading the newspaper. That's just sniffing in general. That's not specific to my vagina.

But I've not been able to read anything about my vagina on the internet. So I do have a Google alert, though. Just in case. Just in case. So they got a break in the case, Brandy. I'm so sorry. Yes. Yeah.

Is this made up? Did this not really happen? That's a very good question okay i cannot answer it okay now or evermore but i do have theories okay all right we'll continue are you going to tell us your theories i also have a dog that sniffs vaginas so they found out that earlier that same night a group of guys had been in an altercation. Here's what happened. This guy, Horace Eda, borrowed his sister's car and used it to drive his friends to a luau. The friends were Joe Kahavai, Benny Ahakuelelo, David Dekai, and Henry Chang.

They were all young guys. They went to the luau, and at around 1230, Horace was driving them all home. And, you know, maybe he wasn't doing the best drive, drive, jobbing. Job, job, driving. Not as good as I am at talking, I'll tell you that. He went through an intersection and almost hit another car. Everyone was fine. There was no damage to either vehicle.

But, you know, it had been pretty scary. Horace stopped his car and got out, and the other driver, a Mr. Peoples, got out of his car as well. Horace stopped his car and got out, and the other driver, a Mr. Peoples, got out of his car as well. Is this a P-E-E-P-L-E-S situation or a P-E-O-P-L-E-S situation? E-E-E-E-E-E. Okay. All right. That was my imitation of a seal.

It's actually E-O. No, it's E-E. Oh, that's a dolphin that does the E-E. It is. Oh, boy. Boy, do I feel silly. My God. People were really

flipped for that joke. That was good. Ring ring. Brandy, it's me. I'm just calling to tell you that's a good joke. So Horace and Mr. Peoples started arguing and then Mrs. Peoples got involved. Oh no. Mrs. Peoples? Mr. Peoples started arguing, and then Mrs. Peoples got involved.

Oh, no. Mrs. Peoples? Agnes Peoples. Oh. Terrible. It's a rough name. I know, but everybody was named it back in the day. That was like a sexy name back in the day.

Well, I don't know about sexy. Lots of sexy Agnes. I bet Agnes never got her crotch sniffed by a dog, huh? So then all of Horace's buddies start getting involved. And Mrs. Peoples said something to Horace about how he was a shitty driver. And Joe Kahawai, who, by the way, was a professional boxer, punched Mrs. Agnes Peoples in the face. What?

And Mrs. Peoples punched him right back in the face. Oh, my gosh, Agnes. And that was so fucking surprising that everybody just went on their way. was so fucking surprising that everybody just went on their way. That was obviously terrible, though, that he'd done that. All right, hold on. I want you to put yourself in that scenario.

You get punched in the face by a fighter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What's your move? Do you punch back? No. No? I can't imagine a scenario where I punch back. I would drop to the ground.

I'd be instantly crying, but also mad that I was crying. Yes! So I'd be like, you're stupid! You know, I'd say something really dumb, but also be afraid that he would hit me again. I'm a lady! I think that's what I would say. Oh, Mrs. Agnes Peoples really, man, I would like to shake her hand and never get in a fight with her.

It's 1931, though, so I'm guessing Mrs. Agnes Peoples is no longer for this world. Wow, yeah, I think we all knew. My God. So I'm guessing Mrs. Agnes Peoples is no longer for this world. Wow. Yeah. I think we all knew. My God. You know, I'm guessing she's dead and buried. Of this world, not for this world, right? You say long for this world.

But then once someone dies, you say of this world. You say, I'm sorry, I can't participate in this imaginary scenario where you shake a person's hand because, you know, the only reason I can't participate is because she's dead now. She's dead. Yeah. Anyhow. Sorry. So everybody drives away, but Mr. and Mrs. Peoples did report the incident to the police and they provided the license plate number of the other car.

Okay, so this other car has a group of men in it, some of whom are locals. So now they're going to say that this is the group of men who gang raped Thalia. I mean, you're jumping ahead slightly, but you know, they've got no leads and this thing happened that night too. So, I mean, it doesn't seem like, you know, seems like a good avenue to investigate. To pursue. Okay. All right.

Wow. So now I have to, you know, walk the people through that because I'm not ditching a bit of this script right here. Okay. All right. So when the police heard about what happened to Thalia Massey, they were like, oh, shit. Is it possible that the group of guys who were in the altercation with Mr. and Mrs. Peoples were the same guys who attacked Thalia Massey? And yes, the answer to that question was yes, it's definitely the same guys. And you seemed a little skeptical. I am skeptical. You'll be relieved to know that in the hours after Thalia made her initial report to the police, her memory improved.

And boy, did it improve a lot. Oh, OK. You a little slow on the uptake? No, I'm just. Man, you take a month off and you get real rusty, don't you? I'm picking up where this is going. So she somehow learns of this interaction and realizes that these, perhaps maybe even the police tell them, tell her, oh. No, police are the good guys always.

No, no, no. I'm guessing the police were like, well, you know, is it possible that these gentlemen, because they wouldn't have called them gentlemen. No. And then she's like, yes, I recognize that man right there. Seems Brandy has heard a Kristen tale this time, too. Yeah, so all of a sudden, she remembered.

Sorry, sorry. Wow. I didn't expect it to be so creepy. But I heard my laugh echo in the hall. And so then you had to close the door so then I was like, oh, great. And so then you had to close the door, and it sounded like a fucking haunted house. Haunted house. No, that is the Western gunslinger music.

Oh, I'm sorry. An old saloon can't be haunted. Think of all the cowboys who died there. Also, I'm very sorry for anyone who's having their first episode today. Having their first episode? I know. Who's listening to this episode for the... Well, oh, God, that's not even one of our... Everyone's listening to this

episode for the first time. Okay. Except for the people who are like, you know what? This one's so good. It's so good. I want to relive the moment where Kristen tries to soldier on as she gets her crotch sniffed. And Brandy's like I'm excuse me excuse me

is that your dog's head in your crotch no shut up I said anyhow all of a sudden tangents what tangents? Not here. I tried. I really did.

I tried to listen to this podcast. Kristen was wonderful. I mean, there's no debating that. There's no debating that. But Brandy, on the other hand... Brandy's the type of podcast who brings it up when a dog takes a little sniff of its owner's vagina. Okay.

And if you think I'm going to let that go without a review, I won't. Anyhow, so she all of a sudden remembered what her attackers had been wearing that night. Oh, did she? She did. Convenient. What were they wearing? Little vests. I just made that up.

I don't know. We all know, Kristen. But wouldn't that be kind of cute? She also remembered more details about the vehicle. Turns out it didn't have a flapping top. It also wasn't old. Oh, okay. But, oh, wait.

Mm-mm-mm. Hang on just a second. Yep. Oh, okay. But, oh, wait. Hang on just a second. Yep. I mean, at that time, the oldest car was 25 years old. Well, also, this was back in the day when people were changing out their cars every two years because cars would break down. Yeah, that's true. Okay. All right. After 12 seconds.

But, no, this one was only two years old. And she remembered the license plate number. No, she fucking didn't. Yes, she did. Not all on her own. Oh, well, okay. I'm going to agree with you partially. She didn't remember it perfectly.

Okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry that she's human. She's not perfect. She messed up one digit. But other than that, she remembered the license plate of the vehicle, and that license plate matched the vehicle that Horace Eda had been driving that night. So, case closed.

Shut up. No. Shut up. No. Shut up. Police arrested the five young men and charged them with rape they were stunned yeah they're like we we got in an almost fender bender like okay so i did punch a woman that's kind of the funny thing about this was like i don't think that they were like

shocked that they were in trouble. Yeah. Especially Joe. I mean, come on. But then they get charged with rape and they're all like, whoa. This was wild. Five men of color had gang raped a white naval officer's white wife. White, white, white, white, white.

The police needed to solve this crime right away i think we get it so they brought thalia in to take a look at a lineup and before they showed her the lineup they were like hey just so you know we only going to be showing you the guilty guys. So, you know. Great. Police also took the car that Horace had been driving and they drove it all over the area where Thalia said she'd been raped. So now their tire tracks were all over that area.

Yeah. Convenient, huh? That's great. It didn't take long for everyone to hear about this story. Local newspapers printed the names, addresses, and mugshots of the five young men. They were described as gangsters and fiends. Best fiends. That's a joke. It's in poor taste, Kristen. Thalia was not named, but she was referred to as having the highest character. Mm-hmm.

There was already a lot of racial tension in Hawaii, and this only made things worse. So let's pause for a brief, terrible history lesson brought to us by American Experience on True TV. It's not True TV. On Logo TV. Okay, so here we go. In the 1820s, white Americans came to Hawaii. And you're making a sad face, but don't worry. They were just bringing Christianity. They were just trying to save the world. And when they arrived, they were like, oh, oh, my goodness. You know what God is telling us?

God is telling us that we should take control of this whole place. Don't take it up with us. Take it up with God. Oh, boy. Over time, they convinced the Hawaiian monarch to introduce private land ownership. And guess what? The white people got all the best land. Weird.

Yeah, it was. They grew sugar. They made tons of money. And then they got a military base on the island so that they could export sugar to the U.S. without any tariffs. Great. Also neat. In 1893, they overthrew the Hawaii's queen. Wow.

That's, no, just Hawaii's queen. Just Hawaii. You know, the American experience folks, they were the ones who fucked that up. Not me, for sure. And you could have fixed it, but you like to be authentic. I want them to learn from their. But I want them to learn. I want them to learn from their mistakes. And I want them to stay humble.

Okay? I mean, that's what I am. A beautiful, brilliant genius. But a humble one. They eventually made Hawaii a U.S. territory. Yeah. So by the time this story took place, Hawaii was still a U.S. territory. And, you know, Hawaiian people were still reeling from all of this recent and ongoing exploitation.

So there was a lot of resentment toward these white people who'd come over and taken over. And because life is a very funny thing, you should know that the white people were also resentful. Okay. They had their own problems too. What were they resentful of? I'm so glad you asked. Rear Admiral Yates Sterling, which is a guy who admires butts. I love the term rear admiral.

I was admiring your rear earlier. You were. Yeah, you had a very nice, you know, everyone, I took a picture. She knew I was taking a picture. It wasn't like a. Yeah, no. It wasn't like an illegal pic. No, I posed for it.

Yes. Stuck that booty right out there. Booty looked good. Turned me into a rear admiral. Anyway, rear admiral Yates Sterling was the commander of the 14th Naval District, which included the Hawaiian Islands, and he was an enthusiastic racist. Oh, boy. Here's what he hated, Brandy. He hated the idea that people might become American citizens, quote, just because they happen to be born in Hawaii.

Uh-huh. That's so backwards. Yep. So, you know, he had problems, too. too. So when he heard about what happened to Thalia Massey at the hands of these gangsters, he flipped his ever-loving

shit. He was very open about the fact that he wanted to lynch every single one of these guys. But he generously agreed to wait for the justice system to sort this whole thing out. Okay.

People were pretty fired up about this incident. There were obviously people who thought that these young men were guilty, but not everyone felt that way. Anyone with access to a clock knew that what these men had been accused of was kind of impossible. That near accident with Mr. And Mrs. Peoples had occurred on one side of the island. And this alleged gang rape happened on the other side of the island.

What? And what's the time? So I didn't write it all out. But yeah, there's this other factor that these guys had been with friends all night, surrounded by people. So there was just no real time for them to have done this. There were also disagreements within the police force. Some officers were very suspicious about how Thalia's memory had gotten so much better over time.

There were reports that a white man had been following her that night on the road. Oh, shit. Why wasn't anyone looking into that? Yeah. A lot of the detectives on the police force were Hawaiian, so they started leaking information to the defense attorney who'd been hired to represent the five young men,

and Thalia's identity had been hidden for a while, but it eventually got out. And once people figured out that it was Thalia making these accusations, they had even more to say. Really? They questioned her reputation. They questioned whether maybe she was just having an affair. Right. Thalia's mother, Grace, could not stand the idea of people trashing her daughter's reputation. At this point, their reputation was all the family had. Mm-hmm.

Much like Rose's family in the classic film Titanic. Ha ha ha! So she flew in from New York to support her daughter. And in November of 1931, the five men went on trial. Wow. Why wow? Did you not see a court case? Because what evidence is there against them?

You're about to hear it. All right. You heard the license plate thing. Yeah, that sounds made up. Sounds like someone was like, hey, this is the license plate of the car. We need you to say this so that we can build this case. I ought to kick you right in the perfect butt. The jury consisted of seven people of color and five white people.

Thalia was the first witness for the prosecution. She said that she'd been walking down a road that night, a car came by, two men jumped out of it. She said that one of the men, Joe, she knows now, hit her in the jaw and pushed her in the car. The men raped her. She identified each of them by name, and she said that they had impregnated her. The defense, which was led by an attorney named William Heen, tried to get Thalia to admit on cross-examination. Heen? H-E-E-N? Do you approve?

I kind of like it. he tried to get her to admit on cross-examination that she'd not initially been able to say much about what her attackers looked like or what their car looked like but you know she couldn't remember any of that so you know wish i could help you but i can't wish my phone hadn't just i can't do a thing about that either. I'm sure it's very important. My sister-in-law just sent me a meme. Like a really important meme. Oh, like a super groundbreaking meme. I would silence my phone, but I can't because I get stuff like that. It's a really important meme.

Think of where we'd be if I didn't get that. A little further along in the script. Medical experts testified about Thalia's injuries from that night. She did have injuries to her face. She had been beaten, but she didn't have injuries on the rest of her body. And I hate to say there was no evidence of rape because I feel like we're learning more about. Absolutely. But you get it. Old timey times. Yeah. The prosecution called officers who talked about Thalia IDing all of her attackers. They talked about how she remembered the license plate almost perfectly. When it was time for the defense to take over, they argued that the police had just caught the wrong guys. So they thought it was too risky to argue that perhaps there hadn't been a gang rape.

Yeah. So they just focused on the timeline. They called witnesses who were able to talk about when they'd seen these guys. We were able to talk about when they'd seen these guys. And they kind of said, look, if you believe what the prosecution said about the time when they had that near incident with the peoples. Mr. and Mrs. Mr. and Mrs. Peoples, to be precise. And you believe these witnesses. men 20 minutes to find this woman, drag her into the car, take her to a second location,

pull her out and rape her six or seven times. The defense also called witnesses who'd said that they'd seen Thalia stumbling home that night in her green dress and that she'd been followed by a white man. stumbling home that night in her green dress and that she'd been followed by a white man. Things got really tense when the defense called members of law enforcement to help with their case. The first detective who interviewed Dahlia talked about how she couldn't really describe any of her attackers. She definitely couldn't remember a license plate number. The defense also called an officer who admitted that he and another officer had driven Horace's car in the area where the rape had allegedly occurred, and that afterward another officer came and did a tire tread investigation on that scene on ground that they had just driven on.

Yeah. What do you think happened? I don't know. You seem like you've lost some energy, Brandi. No, no, no. Are you okay? I hate this. Like, this is clearly a frame job.

Yeah, I mean, this should not have gone to trial at all. No. The jury deliberated and deliberated. First you deliberate, then you deliberate. I argue that you should deliberate first and then deliberate the verdict. Oh, you think you're cute. I do. You think you're so cute.

But you know what? Here's the truth. When you deliberate first, you get to eat deviled eggs while you deliberate and i think we can all agree that that's much better and they deliberated for 97 hours 97 hours yeah it was a big long time yeah that is a big long time and eventually they were like fuck we can't do this anymore they were were deadlocked. Yeah. Six to six. Wow. They're like deadlocked, deadlocked. Not just fucking around deadlocked.

No. Truly deadlocked. Yes. Half and half. Also, should we turn on the fan? Are we hot? Turn it on. Get it going.

How are you not hot? That's the rudest thing you've ever said to me. Do you put any effort in? Do you try? So yeah, it's what we call a hung jury. And wow, that pissed off some white people. This became even bigger news. This time it went far beyond Hawaii.

And don't worry, the facts didn't get in the way of a good story. Yeah. What was important was a very sensational story about a gang of brown men raping a lily white woman. Mm-hmm. The white people wanted justice,

and that meant finding all these brown guys guilty. Great. I'm going to start my own TV show. What's your TV show? It's called Finding All These Brown Guys. No, it's guilty. It's guilty.

The problem was that the prosecution really wasn't sure how they were going to do that. This was a really tough case. Yeah. Because the guys didn't do it. Didn't do it. And it was very obvious. Yes. If they were going to get a conviction at the next trial, they needed to get a confession.

That was going to be the only way they got this thing done. And what better way to get a confession than by beating it out of a person? Am I right? No. Well, how else are you going to get a confession than by beating it out of a person, am I right? No. Well, how else are you going to get them to admit it? Well, not that way. A group of sailors grabbed Horace and beat him with belt buckles. I saw pictures of him.

He was horribly beaten. But he didn't confess. He was horribly beaten, but he didn't confess. Meanwhile, that Rear Admiral dipshit, Yates Sterling, did all he could to try to secure a conviction. And if that meant lying, you know, who cares, right? Oh, boy. He wrote up a report, and he sent it to Congress. And, you know, he put some facts in there.

What facts? Fact number one. Did you know that non-white jurors refuse to convict one of their own, Brandi? That's just a fact. It's not true. That's just a fact. That's why we've got to have only white people on every jury forever in order to get the truth. Also,

did you know that gangsters run rampant in Honolulu? That is a fact I was not aware of. It's just all gangsters and surfers and sometimes

surfing gangsters. It is hard to carry a Tommy gun and a surfboard at the same time. But if you can do it, people respect the shit out of you.

Okay? And they're not going to mess with you at all. Also, did you know that there are sex crimes happening all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time? No one ever gets punished for them because it's just fine that there are sex crimes. for them because it's just fine that there are sex crimes also white women are just living in fear all the time over there oh white women hate living in hawaii because they're just so afraid all the time this is ridiculous i can tell you'd like some specifics, so let me throw a number at you. Okay. 40. 40 what? There were 40 rapes in Honolulu in that year.

Okay, the truth was that this guy pulled that number directly out of his butthole. Yeah. But that didn't matter because people repeated that statistic and repeated it and repeated it until it sort of became true, you know? Well, that's not at all how that works. Oh, but it is. It doesn't just become true because people say it. Oh, but it is. So people were getting more and more worked up. And the case against these five men wasn't getting any stronger.

I stopped myself from saying guys because I didn't want people to think of hamburgers because that's not what this is about. Five guys. Finally, authorities took Ben Ajaquelo aside and they made him an offer. They said, if you admit to everything, if you tell us what you and your friends did, we'll make you a deal. You get off scot-free and we will give you $5,000 in reward money. Adjusted for inflation, that's a little over $100,000. Wow. That would be extremely tempting. Absolutely. I get out of this. Mm-hmm.

Something I didn't do in the first place. Right. And I'm able to better my life with this money. Yeah, I get life-changing money. Ben refused. Wow. He said,

nope, we didn't do this. Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, rumors were still kind of swirling around Thalia Massey. Mm-hmm. Meanwhile, rumors were still kind of swirling around Thalia Massey. Mm-hmm. Maybe she wasn't truly innocent. Maybe she'd been having an affair with one of these guys. Blah, blah, blah.

Thalia's mother, Grace, hated the way this looked. Mm-hmm. She was very deeply racist and she couldn't believe that a jury had sort of believed these men over her daughter. And I say believed, I mean, they were a hung jury, but she was just shocked, shocked that that had happened. So she decided to do something. She decided that the only way to save her daughter's reputation and get a conviction was to get a confession. So she started stalking the five men. Oh, my gosh.

Mm-hmm. It was relatively easy to do. For example, Joe was required to meet with his probation officer every morning at 8 a.m. Mm-hmm. So, you know, once you know that, he's pretty easy. Every morning? Yeah, this was a really big deal. Wow. He quickly became Grace's target. So Grace and Tommy and these Navy guys, Albert Jones and Edward Lord, set up a plan. One morning in January of 1932, Tommy dressed up as a chauffeur. He rented a Buick.

He showed up at the building where Joe reported for probation, and Albert Jones rode with him that morning. Grace and Edward Lord followed behind them in her car. They watched Joe go into the building and later as he left Albert Jones came up to him and grabbed him and shoved a piece of paper in his face. It read territorial police major Ross commanding summons to appear and then had his name. The word territorial was misspelled because spelling is hard. Yeah.

Who cares about the legitimacy of a document? They did have a little gold seal on it. Well, great. They'd taken it from a diploma that Tommy had gotten, pasted it on there. So they thought that much ahead but didn't, like, spell check it? They didn't have spell check. ahead but didn't spell check it? They didn't have spell check.

Obviously, there was not a thing on their computer they could click to do spell check, but I think you have somebody else glance over it, make sure everything's spelled properly. Old-timey spell check. These people are the cousins of Alexander Graham Bell.

Maybe by the time they had that gold seal on there, it was too late. They didn't have another one. All right. Also, this is kind of stupid. So, you know, they showed Joe this paper, but there wasn't much he could do. This man had a document and he also had a gun

and he was grabbing onto him. So when the man demanded that he get in the car, Joe really had no choice. He got in the car. Luckily, a friend of Joe's witnessed this abduction. So as the car drove away, the friend ran inside the judicial building and reported that Joe had been kidnapped. In the meantime, the kidnappers all drove back to Grace's house. The plan was to get a confession. But Joe... Were they going to torture him?

Whatever it takes, right? Oh, my gosh. But Joe wouldn't confess. Yeah. They beat him. He wouldn't confess. Yeah. They beat him. He wouldn't confess. And at some point, one of them shot him in the chest. He bled out.

Holy shit, they murdered him. Yep, they sure did. They absolutely murdered him. They sure did. They absolutely murdered him. What fucking story are they going to come up with for that? What do you think? Oh, he broke into their home and threatened them and they killed him in self-defense.

Hmm. Not bad. Not bad. Grace and Tommy and Albert and Edward weren't quite sure what to do, but they figured it out pretty quickly. They decided to take Joe's body to this area called Coco Head, where they'd dump him into the ocean and he'd be washed away. They loaded his body into the back of Grace's car. They pulled down the window shades and drove off. But a police officer spotted them. He was riding on his motorcycle and, you know, everyone had been told be on the lookout for a blue Buick.

Yeah. But the funny thing was, the thing that caught his eye was the fact that the window shades were pulled down. Yes. Who does that in Hawaii? Yeah. Sus. Picious. Mm-mm-mm. We don't like it one bit.

No. So somehow he got back up. I don't know. Oh, radio is back in the day. Okay, I'm back on my own story anyway. So he gets back up, and the police cars started chasing this Buick. Eventually, they had to just run the Buick off the road. Oh, my gosh. Mm-hmm.

Grace and Tommy and Edward had been caught red-handed. They literally had Joe's dead body in the back seat of the car. So they were all arrested. And when police showed up at Grace's house, they found Albert Jones sipping on whiskey and cleaning up a crime scene. Holy shit. So they arrested him, too. None of them were sorry for what they'd done. Thalia certainly wasn't. for what they'd done.

Thalia certainly wasn't. When asked about it, she said, I'm sorry this man has been shot, but it was no more than he deserved. Oh my gosh. But what did Grace and Tommy and Edward and Albert deserve? They'd just kidnapped and killed a man. They'd been caught in the act of disposing of his body.

Uh-huh. They deserve to go to prison. Oh, wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. Mm-mm-mm-mm. Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm. Yes, they were arrested, but they couldn't go to jail. Why?

Because they're white and well-connected? Rear Admiral Yates, who admires your rear but doesn't like your attitude one bit, was like, no, they shouldn't go to jail. How about instead we allow them to stay on a ship in Pearl Harbor and we'll just monitor them. That's not a thing. Oh, but it was. Grace got to stay in the captain's quarters where she had stewards who, like, made her tea. What a battle teacher.

Yeah, right? Sign me up for that shit. What the fuck? I don't have a single fucking steward in this house. In this house, we make our own tea and we don't like it. I kind of have a steward. David is very attentive. I'm so happy for you.

He's a wonderful husband. Yeah, great. I feel like a queen. There are captain's quarters. That's wonderful. You know, feelings are bubbling up for me right now. feelings are bubbling up for me right now. For example, just this past weekend,

my family and I were sitting around talking about books that we're reading. And I mentioned that I'm reading Lessons in Chemistry and that I really, really like it. I had been kind of putting off reading it because I didn't really like the cover for whatever reason. It didn't really speak to me. But then you start reading it and it's like about this chemist way back in the day. And, you know, it's really, really good. And my brother-in-law, Jay, was like, oh, yeah, I think it's that author's debut novel.

And I was like, good for her. Good for her. I'm really happy for you with your husband slash servant and for this debut author who wrote an amazing book. Yeah. Not at all jealous. No. Or upset. No.

Wish you the best. Thank you. Anyhow. Less you the best. Thank you. Mm-hmm. Anyhow. Lessons in chemistry. Highly recommended? Highly recommended. Well, I guess I'm only halfway through. Maybe she'll shit the bed.

Is it? What genre would you call it? I would call it. You're going to look at it and see what it's called? No, I was thinking I should mention the author's name. Okay. Bonnie Garmis. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

We're very happy for Bonnie. And what genre would you call this lovely book? I don't know. Women's fiction? Yeah. All right. Fucking good shit that makes you read it and go, oh, goddammit, will I ever write a book? Is it romance-y or?

I mean, there's a touch of that. All right, all right. You look unimpressed. No, no, no. I would say it's probably not my usual fare, but I think I'll check it out. I like the thrillers and the mysteries. Yeah. I like the thrillers and the mysteries.

Yeah. This might not be totally up your alley unless a serial killer pops up in the last half of the book, which I don't see coming, which would be quite a twist. Quite a twist. I thought it was like lessons in chemistry. It was going to be like a chemist who then like also falls in love that's why I didn't read it yeah and I mean it's a little bit of that

but I thought it was gonna be like stupid like stupid love story shit yeah not that I'm shitting on love stories but I thought it was gonna be

a dumb one okay great yeah I'm sorry I've read some dumb ones lately and I'm like I'm feeling a little burned you know yeah a little burned. You know?

Yeah. A little chemical combustion. Anyhow, that's enough. This is quite a deep-throwing decade. Jesus. So the point is that Grace had her very own David making her tea and stuff. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, which is quite the punishment for murdering someone. Yeah, they had no fear of punishment. Holy shit. A New York Times reporter came out and did an interview with Grace. This was before the trial. Mm-hmm. And here's what she said. I have slept better

since Friday the 8th, the day of the murder, than for a long time. My mind is at peace. I am satisfied. I'm not worrying. What the fuck? She literally called it a murder.

That's how bold she was. Fuck her and her cheekbones. Right? Mm-hmm. Yeah. That sounded a little bit like you said fuck her in her cheekbones. Go ahead. Go right ahead.

But as you might point out, she's dead. Which is the only reason that you can't do that. which is the only reason that you can't do that. Years later, that reporter said that what he did not put in that article was that she also said, you know, I originally come from the South. And where I come from, we have a way of dealing with N-words. And that's what this was all about. Mm-words. And that's what this was all about. Mm-hmm. Holy shit.

To a lot of white people, what they'd done was just totally understandable and totally justified. No. No. Yeah, it wasn't. They had lynched this young man. Yeah. Thousands of people attended Joe's funeral. This really brought Hawaiian people together. They were devastated.

Joe's father stood up at the funeral and said that his son had told him he was innocent and he believed his son. Yeah. that his son had told him he was innocent and he believed his son. Yeah. So people were devastated, but they really didn't think that the killers would face any kind of justice. In fact, it was a struggle just to get these admitted murderers indicted. This grand jury hemmed and hawed to the point that the judge had to be like have multiple sit downs with them and be like okay okay look we're not even talking about guilt or innocence we're

talking about do we have enough here to determine whether a crime happened and whether they might be responsible it's a pretty low bar especially when you consider that they had his body in their car. And still the jury hemmed and hawed and the judge literally had to tell them, quote, lay aside all race prejudice. Wow. He literally had to tell them, hey, hey, just for a moment, stop being racist. Then think about it. Finally, they got an indictment, but it wasn't unanimous because everything sucks. I know you're worried about the murderers, Brandy, but don't be.

Because they knew they needed a good defense attorney. And guess who they got? Who? They got the best defense attorney in all the land. Who'd they get? Clarence Darrow? They sure did. Holy shit.

They got Clarence Darrow. Clarence Darrow, the legendary attorney, came out of retirement to defend these assholes. Holy shit. He had this incredible reputation and he was known as being kind of the champion of the underdog. With the exception of that one time when he defended Leopold and Loeb. Yeah. Also, these guys are not underdogs. No.

No, they're not. No. No, they're not. Also, did he have fucking egg on his shirt? Damn it, Brandi. I have a joke about there's a reason he took this case it was the early 1930s and his investment portfolio tanked and also he'd never been to hawai So when he was offered $30,000 to take this case, adjusted for inflation, $666,000. Yeah, a lot of money. $666,000.

He should have put that into his inflation calculator and then been like, oh, this is a bad omen. Yeah, in 2023. And then been like, oh, this is a bad omen. Yeah. In 2023. So when he was offered the job, Brandy, he was like, hang on, let me finish this egg sandwich. God damn. That joke would have killed if it hadn't been smooshed.

I'm sorry. We've covered Clarence a lot on this podcast. Really enjoyed him immensely. Yeah. I do not enjoy this one I'm just telling you holy shit when Clarence arrived in Hawaii he was 75 and he was a crusty old white man and so naturally when someone put a lei on him he wore it for like two seconds and then he said can I take off these jingle bells? I look like a decorated hat rack. Oh my God. Yep.

Oh boy. The progressive hero of yesteryear is now everyone's embarrassing white grandpapa. Yeah. Holy shit. Ah, holy shit. One of the first things Clarence did was get this trial in front of a different judge than the one who presided over that grand jury thing. Because, you know, that guy seemed to be talking about setting aside your racial prejudice. And that was just bullshit.

He seemed to think people were racist here. Clarence also had hoped for an all-white jury, but we can't have everything in life, Brandy. I'm sorry. The trial began in April of that year in front of a jury of five people of color and seven white people. The prosecution's case was very good and very straightforward. Prosecutor John Kelly called the witness to Joe's abduction. He called police officers who'd captured the four defendants. He had the officers go through all the evidence they'd found. He showed the jury Joe's bloody shirt, which had the bullet hole that pierced it.

He showed them bloody sheets that they'd used to wrap his body. He showed them the rope that they'd used to tie him up. He presented evidence that Joe had been shot while he was seated with his killer standing. Blood evidence showed that Joe had been shot and then dragged into a bathroom. If you need more evidence, which I don't know why you would, but you should also know that the bullet that was removed from Joe's body matched an empty cartridge that had been in Albert Jones's pocket. Yeah, and also, they were caught driving with his body in their car. Also, in case you needed more, Grace is it? Yes.

Called it a murder to the fucking press. Yep. So, the prosecution rested. They looked over at the defense and said top that asshole and then they reenacted that scene from Teen Witch but if you'll think about it

they weren't really reenacting it they were doing it for the first time a lot of people don't know that the film Teen Witch borrows from the Massey affair. So you know, it's the defense's turn. So Clarence Darrow started up. His pants were way too

high on his stomach. Which is something that I just want to say to be mean because he's rude in this case. I'm not his friend anymore. The older the men get, the higher the pants go. Is that true? You said it like a wise old owl. SNL did a whole sketch about it with Clint Eastwood.

Ew. Okay. Each clip, his pants are just like a little bit thicker. He's just like wearing like all pure waist pants. I hate an all pure waist, don't you? No, all pure waist, very flattering on my body type. No. It's the smallest part of my body.

No. Yeah, brings the attention. Yeah. False. I think you look cute in like form-fitting stuff. Yeah, I do. I do look cute in form-fitting stuff as well. Yeah. Alright. It depends on the event.

Like, form-fitting stuff can be a little too What? Too sexy for? Sexual for, yeah, I got some curves. Wow. My goodness, what it must be like to have your ego. Oh, I can't wear a form-fitting event to this Wow. My goodness, what it must be like to have your ego. That's not what I meant.

Oh, I can't wear a form-fitting event to this because everyone will be too turned on to function. Oh, that's not what I meant. I'd like to wear that outfit to the family reunion, but I don't want anyone to get arrested. A form-fitting dress takes a pin-up turn real quick on my body. Oh my goodness. Okay. Alright. I see. I see.

I also have a problem with being too beautiful. Anytime people don't like me it's because they're jealous. That's right. And it happens a lot. So, you know, Clarence stands up and he called Tommy to the stand. Still going by Tommy, even though he gets older by the fucking day. And, you know, this was technically a murder trial.

I hate to be too precise. It is a fucking murder trial. But Clarence didn't really want to talk about that. Clarence wanted to talk about the gang rape that definitely happened. Wow. So he started going down that road and the prosecution was like, whoa, objection. Objection? That has nothing.

It's not relevant here. Nope. that has nothing. It's not relevant here. And Clarence was like, um, actually, I'm doing this really cute thing. You probably don't get it.

Here's what I'm doing. See, it is relevant if that incident made someone go insane. Temporarily insane. And okay, you look like you don't see how cute this is, but I've got to tell you a little more, alright? Alright?

I'd just like to point out that if the person who pulled the trigger was insane at the time that they did it, then they're all innocent. Beep boop, beep boop, beep boop. Case closed. Boom. Defense. Pretty good, good huh oh my gosh yeah fucking disgusting i hate it yeah so the judge let clarence proceed tommy told you know this big long story about how

oh everything had been so hard for him. Ever since his wife got definitely gang raped, he couldn't sleep. He lost weight. His pants fit better. He had more energy. He was getting compliments from strangers. I'm sorry. I just fell into a low. It wasn't a diet.

It was a lifestyle. He told the jury that he'd been so afraid that his wife would become pregnant after this gang rape that and then that happened and he had to take her to go get an abortion that's all 100 real the next day they had to cancel court because Clarence was super hungover. That's not a joke. He really was too hungover. He'd watched Sex and the City with his husband the night before and over-served himself. Yeah, sure.

Wait, have you started the new season? It's terrible. Is it really? It's so bad. Oh, no. Yeah. Season two of it's terrible is it really it's i haven't watched it yet so bad oh no yeah season two of what's that just like that just like that you will not believe how bad it is okay norman and i got halfway through the first episode and we were just like uh-uh okay great maybe i'll not waste my time yeah skip it, skip it. You need other recommendations? I've got plenty. So when Clarence finally

got his shit together, the murder trial continued. And that was a very good thing because Tommy had some very important information to share. Oh yeah? What's he got now?

Well, he said that after they kidnapped Joe, they begged him to confess. Confess! Confess! Oh, and he confessed right before they shot him. It was a response. Whoa! It was a response to his confession

that caused whomever had the gun to fly into a fit of insanity and shoot him. Well, ma'am. You've certainly simplified it a bit, but yes, initially Joe did refuse to tell the truth, and finally Tommy grabbed Albert's gun and he held it on him and asked him again to tell the truth. And finally, Joe did. He admitted that they did it. Here's some of that line of questioning. Clarence.

Did you have a gun in your hand when you were talking to him? Tommy. Yes, sir. Clarence, do you remember what you did? Tommy, no, sir. Clarence, do you remember what became of the gun? Tommy, no, I do not, Mr. Darrow. Clarence, do you know what became of you? Tommy.

No, sir. I noticed you wiped a tear from your eye. Are you moved? No, the fan is making my eyes water. It's not moved in any way. Clarence called in two experts who were like, yes, Tommy was insane at the time of the murder. Clarence also called Thalia to the stand, and that was exciting. First of all, she had all new, never-before-heard details about the gang rape. Oh, she did?

Did she? You ready for this? Yeah. Okay, you've already heard her say that Joe punched her in the jaw that night, but did you know that he only did that after she asked for a chance to pray? That's so fucking ridiculous. Yeah, he shouldn't have done it, huh? Yeah, that's what I meant. The cross-examination didn't go great for her. So much of the defense's story, and really the media's story, was that these two had this wonderful marriage, and then these terrible guys came and attacked her. These terrible guys came and attacked her.

But Prosecutor John Kelly had that questionnaire that she'd filled out a few years earlier when she met with a psychiatrist. For the insect study. Yes, indeed. And everyone said, I don't see what beetles have to do with this. So he presented her with that questionnaire. And Thalia flipped. She said, where did you get this and she tore it into little pieces right there on the witness stand and poof threw him up in the air and the crowd cheered because this is fucking nuts and the prosecutor said thank you mrs massey

at last you've shown your true colors oh shit uh not to outdone, Thalia then jumped out of the witness stand, ran over to Tommy, wrapped her arms around him, and said, What right has he got to say that I don't love you? Everybody knows I love you! Oh my gosh! Yeah, it was very ridiculous.

Wow! The drama! They did not save it for their mama. They saved it for the trial. Clarence Darrow's closing statement was just four hours long, that's all. Holy hell. Man, and you think the other people brought the drama? Hell no. Clarence had it all. At one point, he squirted some. Tears.

His stupid argument was basically like, hey, you know what? We got to go for the unwritten law here. Which, as we all know, is that if your wife falsely accuses a dude of a crime, you can then murder that dude, provided you are white, and he is not. In his closing argument, Prosecutor John Kelly was like, Okay, can we think about this for a minute? Tommy Massey sure has a convenient memory, right? Like he just holds the gun and all of a sudden doesn't remember shit. Yeah.

He said, The defense must take you for a bunch of morons. Is there one law for strangers in our midst and one for you and me? We must abide by the law or descend into chaos. Wow. The jury deliberated for about 48 hours. And ultimately they found the four accused. What do you think they found them?

Not guilty. Nope. They found them guilty of manslaughter. Yeah. And they recommended leniency. Oh, cool. So we're going to say you're guilty because you did do it. You did kill a guy, but like, it's probably fine.

Right. I mean, you clearly plotted this out. Then it gets more interesting. So the sentencing suddenly got moved up and the judge sentenced each of them to 10 years in prison. Mm-hmm. Judge sentenced each of them to 10 years in prison. And immediately after the sentencing, Grace and Tommy and Albert and Edward were taken to the governor's office for some reason. So the governor could pardon them?

Not quite. From there, Governor Lawrence Judd announced that he would be commuting their sentences to one hour. What? And that one hour would be spent in his office. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so the rumor is that they literally sat there for that hour just drinking tea in the governor's mansion or office or I don't know. Governor's mansion or office or I don't know. After their one hour sentence, all of them, including Thalia, left Hawaii.

She couldn't be forced to return. So there was never a second trial in the rape case. So the four surviving men lived the rest of their lives with this accusation hanging over them. The charges were dropped, but still, I mean, no one forgets this. With the exception of Ben, none of the men spoke publicly about the incident ever again. I believe Ben spoke out about it like 35 years after the fact, and he just said it had a horrible impact on him. Yeah. His children found out about it through school and he had, I don't know if he had tried to call off his own wedding or if he had seriously considered it just because he didn't want his wife to have to deal with the ramifications of being associated with him. You're ready to hear what happened to the rest of these folks? Yeah.

Thalia and Tommy divorced two years later. She cited extreme mental cruelty in the divorce. And she attempted to die by suicide a few weeks later. Wow. She survived. Over the years, she was arrested many times for public intoxication. At one point, she assaulted her pregnant landlord, and she died by suicide in 1963. Wow. Tommy also struggled. In 1940, he showed up for work, and he was just kind of talking nonsense.

He carried around a little bottle and started telling people that once he got the mixture just right, he could ingest it and become a superhero. What? He was later diagnosed with schizophrenia. Oh. He died in 1987. He died in 1987. As for Grace, she lived a long, apparently good life. She inherited her fortune from her father, so don't worry.

She became plenty wealthy after all. She moved to Florida. I think this is really fucking weird. Okay, so the episode Crimes of the Centuries, they did an episode on this, and they said that she moved to, like, Palm Beach, and she asked her decorator to, like, make her house capture the essence of Hawaii because she just loved Hawaii and blah, blah, blah. The place where you murdered a man. Yeah. And where you supposedly believe that your daughter was gang raped. Gang raped. Anyway, she water skied well into her 80s.

And she died in 1979. She was 96 years old. Wow. In the meantime, the truth or some version of it did come out. In the 1960s, a writer named Peter Van Sleegerland interviewed Albert Jones for his book about the Massey affair. And, you know, Albert had been tried for the crime. He'd served his time, his one hour of it. So he had no reason to lie.

And I'd like to read a portion of the interview now. The interviewer asks him, basically, you had no real personal animosity toward this guy, right? And Albert said, well, I don't hate anybody. Hate is another expression of fear. And I didn't fear this black bastard, although I had no use for him. To me, it was a challenge. You say Massey was questioning him. Then what happened?

Massey asked him a question, and K'hawai lunged at him. I say lunged. Somebody else might say he just leaned forward. Oh, might they? And then I shot him. You shot him? You're goddamn right I did. I shot him right underneath the left nipple and to the side.

When that slug hit him, he just went over backward on the chase lounge. The bullet didn't go through him. It stayed in his body. That was the climax right there. Did you know what you were doing? When I shot that son of a bitch, I knew what I was doing. How did you feel then? When that shot was fired, it had completely gone out of our hands. We were in a peck of trouble and we knew it. How long after you arrived in the house was this? Maybe eight minutes. Holy shit. How much blood was there?

Oh, just a little trickle. Where were Mrs. Fortescue and Lord when this shot was fired? Just as we killed this joker, in they come. Obviously, they'd heard the shot. They were that close. I guess there was maybe a lapse of a minute at the very most. What was Mrs. Fortescue's reaction? She was a scared woman. I think she took a hold of Tommy and hugged him. You know, she liked Tommy. Then what happened? I don't know why, but it was my suggestion to put him in the bathtub. Of course, the way I was thinking, then I was frightened, excited, all that, and well, goddammit, it's easier to clean a tile bathtub than a rug. I was scared. God bless my soul.

After that, Kanaka was dead. We had 170 pounds of carcass on our hands. So Eddie and I put him in the bathtub, and we turned the water on. I had the asinine thought that the water would pull the blood out of him. That is an asinine thought. Yeah. Did Mrs. Fortescue come in the bathroom with you? She was standing at the door when we put him in the tub. We told her to shove off because we was going to undress him.

We were all excited. I think Eddie said, Mrs. Fortescue, get the hell out of here. We had this joker in the bathtub. The water was on. I don't know why, but we were going to undress him. We had his pants down, trying to get them off his feet. He was exposed. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. I think I'll end it there, but that sounds like the truth to me. Yeah. Wow. Later in this interview, he said that he did say all this to Clarence Darrow. Cool. Yeah. But obviously, he would not have had the reason to go insane, so to speak.

So they would have all been guilty. Yep. In 2006, the American Bar Association held a mock trial on the rape case. They held it at the Hawaii Convention Center, which ironically is located at that same club where this whole thing took off. At the conclusion of the mock trial, the jury found the defendants not guilty. The jury, of course, heard a lot of evidence, but ultimately concluded that the timeline just didn't make sense. These men didn't have the time or opportunity to attack Thalia Massey. Yeah. I think this is an interesting case because I think it's very clear something did happen to her.

Something did happen to her, obviously. Yeah. And it was probably terrible but it wasn't this no it wasn't this so there's talk of like is it possible that tommy was the one who beat her up is it possible that just you know that that white guy who was following her or somebody maybe she was having an affair with. Who knows? Who knows? Yeah. But it wasn't these guys.

No. And that is the story of the Massey affair. Wow. Yeah. Well, that was terrible. You're welcome. Oh, my gosh. Very well told. I didn't mean you did a bad job. Thank you. Terrible case. Very well told.

I didn't mean you did a bad job. Thank you. It's a terrible case. Ma'am. Holy hell. You know what I'd like to do right now? An ad? Doodle-oo.

Are we back from the ad? We are back from the ad. Doodle-oo. Ma'am, I hope you've got kind of a short case today. You got a little short one? I mean, it's not real short. You got a little bitty one? I got a little mini case. No mean, it's not real short. You got a little bitty one? I got a little mini

case. No, it's regular size. What? Disaster. Hold on. I never put my shoutouts at the top. Oh my god. What if I would have forgot to do my sources at the top? I think you would have been killed on the spot. Mm-hmm.

Alright, you ready for a disappearance? Yeah. Alright, shoutouts to an episode of Dateline with our boy, big fan of the show, Josh Mankiewicz. He never said he was a big fan of the show. He did. He said he liked our show. It was very funny. That's very sweet. He did say he was a fan of the show.

I did not make it up. Okay. Thank you, Josh. Yes. Thank you, Josh. Thank you, Josh. And also, for an entry on one of my favorite websites. Chillingcrimes.com. That is correct. Monday, July 15th, 1991 started as just a regular day of summer break for 13-year-old

Alicia and 9-year-old John Heckel. They were home alone for the day in Mill Hall, Pennsylvania, as their dad, also John. He's John III, and then the 9-year-old is John IV. You know, I thought Mill Hall sounded fancy, and now I'm just really very much fancy. So John was in New York for a military assignment. He was an active duty member of the National Guard. And their mother, 40-year-old Catherine Kathy Heckel, also had to work that day. She worked in the Human Resources Department of the International Paper Company Mill in nearby Lock Haven, Pennsylvania.

About eight minutes apart, according to Google Maps. All right. Kathy said goodbye to her children that morning, just like normal. It was just a very routine day. She gave them kisses, left for work, and then she called to check on them shortly after she had arrived at work, just to make sure, you know, everything going smoothly. You know, you got a 13 year old, the nine year old siblings at home. One could go wrong. And and Alicia and John confirmed to Kathy that all was well at home. And then they had a quick conversation about what they should have for dinner that night.

They settled on pork chops, which was John's favorite meal that his mother made. Should you do something special to the pork chops? I don't know. Well, you've got to do something special because pork needs help. Yeah, I agree. I think it can be the most boring meat, but also it can be delicious. If it has a good anecdote. Anyway.

I am funny Later that same day Alicia Did I call her Alicia earlier? Listen I called Thalia Thalia Talia Magalia

Her name is absolutely Alicia But it is spelled A-L-I-S-H-A And so I may have said Alicia It's Alicia Sincerest apologies. Okay. So later that same day, Alicia called Kathy at work, but was told by one of Kathy's co-workers that she had already gone out for lunch. And so to try back later. And so Alicia did. She tried

to call back a little later in the day, but was told again by someone at the office that Kathy hadn't come back from lunch yet. At about 6.30 that same evening, Clarence and Margaret Dolan, who were Kathy's parents, received a call from Alicia. She talked to Margaret and she said, Gran, can you bring us some milk? And Margaret thought this was really weird. She was like, honey, why are you calling me for milk? And she's like, well, we're all out and mom hasn't come home from work yet. Immediately, Margaret was panicked like this.

She should have been home by now. This is very odd that she wasn't home. And so Margaret and Clarence were just like, we're on our way over. Yeah. So they go to Kathy's house where Alicia and John are, and they're trying to get more information. When was the last time you talked to her mom? They said they had talked to her on the phone earlier that day, but they'd called to check on like talk to her over lunch and she hadn't been there. And then they hadn't been able to get in contact with her since. This was very unlike Kathy. She was a very attentive mother, very communicative with her entire family. And so they were very concerned that something had happened to Kathy. Kathy's

parents, Clarence and Margaret, started calling everyone that Kathy knew to see if she had talked to anyone. But nobody had heard from her. And so I believe that same night, Clarence reported his daughter missing. Not much was done that night, I believe. She's a 40-year-old woman. She could have just decided not to come home. So while a missing person report was made, I don't know that any actual

search was underway at that point. And Margaret and Clarence did their best to, like, not let the kids know how concerned they were by this. They were trying to shield them as much as possible. And they were also trying like hell to get a hold of John, who was on military assignment in New York.

This is a nightmare. Yes. So they don't get in touch with him until the following day. So now it's Tuesday evening. They get a hold of John. I think actually, yeah, I think it was the evening before they got a hold of him. So like that whole day goes by. Maybe the police are doing something.

Finally, they get in contact with John. John gets permission to leave his military assignment and come home. He gets home and this is when he sits his children down and says, we don't know where your mother is. Alicia and John both say this is the first time they ever saw their father cry. Wow. After letting his children know what had happened, he went and sat down with the police and did basically an interrogation. You know, where have you been? What's your alibi?

What's your marriage like? All kinds of stuff. And he said that, you know, their marriage was a typical marriage, had their typical ups and downs. But overall, they'd been married about 20 years and they were happy, according to John. He did say that in the weeks leading up to Kathy's disappearance, she hadn't seemed like her normal self, just like maybe a little bit distant or maybe like something was on her mind. Just something was slightly off.

And when police talked to other people who knew Kathy, a few colleagues, her parents, they all kind of gave similar accounts. She had seemed almost preoccupied for the last few weeks. had seemed almost preoccupied for the last few weeks. But nobody said there was any indication that Kathy seemed like she was like on her way out the door. Right. And like everybody said the same thing. She would never leave her children. Right.

Things were just slightly off in retrospect. Yes. So with those kind of cursory interviews out of the way, the police decided that there must be foul play involved here. And so they decided to figure out when the last time Kathy was actually seen. So police start this investigation into her disappearance and they determined that Kathy had gone to work that morning, just like usual. Was she'd gone into the office. She talked to her from the office, and then she was there until lunchtime. But she left the plant at lunch and she never returned. And they talked to several people at the plant who noticed that she never came back that

afternoon and thought that was very unusual. Right. And her car was missing as well. Did anybody have any idea where she went to lunch? No. No. Okay. No.

So they then start looking for her car. They bring in, I mean, dogs to look for it. They bring in helicopters to do a search. But days are going by. In the meantime, they're still talking to the people directly related to Kathy. And they speak to Kathy's mom and ask her, you know, is it possible your daughter was having an affair? Right. And she says it's possible. Wow. She said Kathy had recently reconnected with a friend from high school named Dennis Taylor. Ew, Facebook is to blame, isn't it?

Ma'am, it's 1991. Oh. All right. All right. So I was wrong. So I just begun. All right. That's fine. I was wrong. So I just begun. All right. That's fine.

I'm sorry. Anytime I hear about someone in their 40s who all of a sudden gets a divorce, it's always Facebook. Facebook. Even in 1991. Even in 1991. That's right. So she said that Kathy had run into Dennis at a wedding that she had attended. He had been playing guitar in the band.

Uh-oh. Mm-hmm. And that she had mentioned it to her mom that they were. Mentioned what? That she'd run into him and that they were maybe going to hang out or meet up or something like that. Margaret said that she didn't think that meant she was having an affair, but now.

Yeah, in retrospect, sure. Maybe that't think that meant she was having an affair. But now. Yeah. In retrospect. Yeah. Maybe that's what that meant. And so they went and talked to Dennis Taylor. And he said that, yes, he and Kathy were having an affair and that, in fact, they were supposed to meet the night of July 15th. Come on. But Kathy never showed up. He said he talked to her earlier in that day.

And that things she seemed kind of. I don't know, standoffish, maybe distracted. Like the phone call had been kind of weird. And so he'd kind of brushed that off. He'd went and played golf with his buddies. And then he'd showed up to the place where they were supposed to meet that night. And Kathy never showed up. Where were they supposed to meet? A local restaurant is all I know.

Oh, okay. And so... So her husband found out about the affair bing bang boom solved the case okay all right so they're like a great job thank you okay so they're like all right don't leave town dennis i don't know that they actually said that to him but it'd be cool if it would be and so they're keeping their eye on old dennis yeah because all right, don't leave town, Dennis. I don't know that they actually said that to him, but. It'd be cool if they did. It would be.

And so they're keeping their eye on old Dennis. Yeah, because he's got his guitar over his back and that just seems like he's ready to roll on out of here. Yeah, absolutely. But they wonder if maybe, did John learn of this affair? And while John had like. Yes, that's a very reasonable fear.

John had a very solid alibi. He was on military assignment about eight hours away. People knew exactly where he was. Is it possible that he left a blow up doll in his place? I don't believe so. And so they're like, all right, great. This doesn't look like he did it. And so then they pursued the avenue of maybe he hired somebody to kill Kathy.

But again, they could find absolutely no evidence of that whatsoever. I mean, at this point, they don't even know. Yeah, they don't even know that she's dead. That she's dead. Yeah, they just know she's gone. Yes. And so they were like, all right, this is going nowhere either. So I think they told John the same thing.

Don't think about leaving town. Yeah. I don't know that they said that to him. You're just making shit up right now, aren't you? Well, I mean, because he was really emotional. He's really broken up about his wife disappearing. And he had like, I mean, he was really blaming himself because he drove – OK. So he's interviewed on this Dateline episode.

It's really sad to listen to. So he had Kathy drive him to his military assignment. I don't know if they only had one car or what it was. And he was like the first one to arrive at his military assignment. And Kathy had said like as he was getting out of the car, how come you always have to be here so early? Yeah. assignment and Kathy had said like as he was getting out of the car how come you always have to be here so early yeah and he had said you know this is my job this is what I do this is this is who I am so I always am and so the way they talked about it on the Dateline episode was that like uh yes John was married to Kathy and they you know but he was married to the military first. Brandy. Hmm.

Hmm. What? Hmm. What? Do you feel red deep inside? What do you mean? Brandy, you are married to working. Oh.

Ooh. Oh, my gosh. Mm-hmm. Shit. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Everybody, we've got to give Brandy a minute to think about this. Oh, no.

Somehow this is the first time she's realizing it, even though she's been this way since we were teenagers. Oh, no. Well, I don't have the mental capacity to explore this right now. I wish you would at a later time. I will at a later date. All right. I think there's a reason that hit you so hard. Fuck.

Okay. Fuck. All right. Moving on. Shit. Okay. Did that really hit you that hard? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Think on it later. Yeah, I will. I absolutely will. All right. All right. Patty cut that, obviously. Thank Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Think on it later. I will. I absolutely will. All right.

All right. Patty cut that, obviously. Thank you. All right. I'm moving on with my life here. Okay. So, I mean, the initial read on John is that like he is very distraught by his wife's disappearance. It appears that he has no involvement in this whatsoever. And so, as I mentioned, the search is going on for Kathy's car, any sign of Kathy. And three days after she was reported missing on July 18th, which is my sister Casey's birthday,

they did find her car. She had a silver Ford Festiva. My... Fiesta? No, Festiva. Really? Yeah. It was a little hatchback-y number.

Okay. My grandma had one when we were kids. I'm wondering if I should share this story. What? What happened in the festiva? So there were four of us girls, and this is a small car. Sure.

And so we'd sit in the back seat, and we'd have to be, like, double buckled in the seat belts. And so my grandma would say, if we get in an accident, try not to die. Well, that's just hilarious. Yeah. I'm sorry your grandma's so hilarious. If we get in an accident, try not to die. That's advice we should all follow.

Also, you know, the 90s were a wild time. Yeah, absolutely. So they find Kathy's car. It was found parked in the back parking lot at Lock Haven Hospital. Oh. And the keys weren't there. Keys were missing. And there was no sign of Kathy.

Yeah. So they start, you know, they're still talking to all these people that know Kathy. They start talking to more colleagues and asking, you know, about her behavior leading up to this. They ask if anybody else knew if she was having an affair, if anybody had more insider information. And one of Kathy's coworkers is like, OK, well, I don't I don't have any proof, but I do have my suspicions that she has been having an affair. And they're like, tell us more. Yeah. that she's been having an affair. And they're like, tell us more. And that's when the police learned that Kathy was maybe involved with another man,

a co-worker of hers at the paper plant named Lloyd Groves. Kathy and Lloyd worked together at the paper plant in different departments. Lloyd was an industrial hygienist. I don't have any idea what that means. He also did. Real clean boy. Yeah. He also did like paper making demonstrations at like the local elementary schools and stuff.

All right, Dwight Schrute. And he did like tours of the plant for like field trips and stuff. Okay. He was described as quiet. Is that the end of the description? Yes. Okay. That's like how everybody described him. Yeah, yeah, we know Lloyd.

He's quiet. Okay. Yeah. And so this co-worker was like, I'm pretty sure Kathy and Lloyd were having an affair. And so this co-worker was like, I'm pretty sure Kathy and Lloyd were having an affair. I've seen them together in his van, like on lunch breaks. And they just hang out in his van? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah. Also, they may have played on the same, like, work volleyball team. Okay. Yeah. All right. And so police go and they talk to Lloyd Groves.

So they actually like called the paper plant and were like, hi, we'd like to talk to you about. They didn't get him. So they left him a message. Hi, this is so and so with the police department. We'd like to talk to you about the case of Kathy Heckles missing persons case. Please give us a call back when you have a chance. And instead a call back he just came into the police department okay and so they sat down with him and said you know some people have mentioned that maybe you and kathy were close he's like close no no we're co-workers acquaintances i don't even know her that well we just hang out in my van together he said they and so that's when they're like well

some people have said maybe you were having an affair and he's like no absolutely not i'm a married man with two young children nope we are not having an affair they're like okay well you know some co-workers said that they see you and kathy together a bit. And he said, no, they're mistaken. Mistaken? Mistaken. Well, like they are seeing things or? I don't know. Okay.

It's a weird response. Yeah. Yeah, because if you say a bunch of co-workers have seen you guys hanging out together, you're like, oh, we like to eat our lunches together. There's just a way better answer than no, uh-uh. Well, if you've already said no, we're just co-workers. We don't hang out. It's hard to back that train up.

You're better off backing that thing up. So when police were questioning him, they asked him when he had last spoken to Kathy and he said that he had had a brief conversation with her the morning of July 15th. And he couldn't remember anything other than that. Do what now?

What was the brief conversation? He couldn't. He has a really bad memory. It was, you know, he couldn't really remember the rest of it. Pretty normal day. Nothing out of the ordinary happened. No, you murdered someone that day. And he got home from work that night about 530.

Lloyd, none of us believe you. Totally normal day. We think you're full of shit. I hope he's actually guilty of this. Otherwise, I'm pulling a Christmas. Actually, wouldn't you be pulling a brandy? Well, you know, come to think of of it i've done it a few times now so they're like all right thanks for coming in today lloyd

and so he left the police department no no what what no you can't just say no over and over again i can too it's a complete sentence, Brandy. No, I mean like, okay, you have a conversation with someone and then they go missing. No, no. That wouldn't. Nothing out of the ordinary happened that day. Even if she is just your acquaintance, your work maybe friend. Yeah. She went missing that day.

So something out of the ordinary did happen. And I think you would remember. You sure fucking would. Even if it was just a boring. Yes. Paper making day. Yeah. Yeah.

And the conversation was about boring paper making stuff. Mm hmm. Yeah. All right. Continue. So the police are not believing Lloyd. They think he's full of shit. They think he's lying.

And so the next day they go to the paper plant and tell him exactly that. Lloyd, we think you're lying to us. OK. We think you were having an affair with Kathy. Yes. And they said that he at that point became defiant and loudly answered no to any questions concerning a possible relationship between him and Kathy Heckle. Okay. Well, now you're just making it weird.

Exactly. And so they're like, okay, Lloyd, change our minds. Tell us what you did on the 15th. And he again says, I'm sorry, I can't recall that day. I have a bad memory. He did consent to a search of his van, the van that multiple coworkers said they had seen Kathy in from time to time on their lunch hour or whatever. And in that van, they found two gym bags between like by the center console. OK.

A box of 25 caliber ammunition. Oh. A hunting knife. Duct tape. Oh, God. He consented to this search? He consented to that search. Lloyd. Mm hmm.

Did you forget about all the evidence you had in there? Yeah. What was in the gym bags? I don't know if the ammo was in the gym bags and then it was like stuffed between the console. That's kind of how I'm picturing it. Gotcha. This comes from the court record and I didn't, you know, this is kind of just how it was listed. Oh, so no follow-up questions, please.

I'm sorry. This is what I know. Also, in the back of Lloyd's van, there were, like, two rows of passenger seats and then, like, a couch behind that. It was a big van. Big-ass van. Like a conversion-style van. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So in front of that back couch seat, but behind the second row of seats, there was like an area of carpet on the floor. That had been ripped out. Where like sections of it were cut out. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And there had been like a little carpet sample had been placed over it to maybe kind of hide the sections where it had been cut out. And so police were like, hey, what's the deal with this fucking weird ass carpet in the back here? Yeah.

And Lloyd was like, oh, you know what? One of my kids was playing with some tar and some oil and they got it on the carpet back there. And so I had to cut it out. oil and they got it on the carpet back there and so I had to cut it out. I hate it when the kids these days play with the tar and the oil. God damn. Lloyd also consented to a search of his desk in his office at the paper company. Does Lloyd not know he has rights?

I don't know. And in his desk, they found a firearm. Oh. Mm-hmm. Well, it's a dangerous business. Yeah, it was a.25 caliber semi-automatic handgun. Okay, so when they asked him, they're like, okay, you got ammo here in your van. Do you have a gun?

And he's like, yeah, I have a.25 caliber semi-automatic Colt handgun. And they're like, where's that? And he's like, it's in my desk drawer. Just unlocked in your desk drawer just sitting there? And loaded. Good grief. He said that it was in his desk drawer because he was planning to sell it. Oh.

Right. Oh, it all makes sense now, Lloyd. Okay. And so that's when he consented to them like coming up and looking at his desk and seeing the gun. And sure enough, there they found that firearm. And it was in a closed but unlocked desk drawer.

Don't say closed as if that's so much better. It's not so much better. It was fully functioning and capable of firing and loaded. There were five undischarged cartridges inside of it. It was capable of holding seven, six in the magazine and one in the chamber. Hmm. So police are like, none of this is any good. No, they had boners everywhere because they're like we caught this guy well except yeah they

still have no sign of kathy though so that makes this complicated oh that's true yeah at this point just chub no boners sorry that that's too much why'd you say that brandy i didn't so like all right let's see if we can confirm the tar story. And it turns out Lloyd's children are from the Revolutionary War days and they had been playing with tar and feathers. And it was true. And they were like, wow, we would have not imagined this. So they go and they talk to Lloyd's kids and like Lloyd's kids' friends who had been riding in the van at some point? Are you about to tell me this is true?

No, it's not. So one of Lloyd's son's friends, who's 14 at this time, he told the police that he had actually seen a reddish brown stain on that carpet in that area that had been cut out. But when he asked his friend about it, his friend said, oh, my dad shot a deer. And put it in the van, and that caused the stain. Oh, God. stain oh god but this same friend said that he thought he saw that stain on july 12th which is before kathy ever went missing how sure is he that's what i want to know yeah so he tells them that he he's pretty sure he saw that stain on july 12th and that sometime after the 15th he was in the van again.

And that's when he saw that had been cut out and the carpet sample had been placed where it was. OK. Yeah. I have questions about that. Yeah. Is he sure it was before the 15th? Also my OK. This is my other problem and it's because I don't hunt, so I don't know.

But, like, my assumption would be you wouldn't throw a dead deer in your van. Would you tie it to the top? I have no idea. Like the Beverly Hillbillies? Put it in a rocking chair? I think at the very least, don't you wrap it in a tarp or something? Right. Yeah, I don't think you're, I don't know.

I don't hunt either. This is total bullshit. So this is outside of our realm of expertise, but it sounds like bullshit to me. Yes. You know what we are good at? Hunting for bullshit. So they're like, okay, so no, no one was playing with tar back here. Yeah, Lloyd's kids also were like, no, we've never played with tar in the van.

What? We only play with it outside the van. So ridiculous. Yeah. And so then they did actually get a warrant to search that van again and take samples. So they, you know, brought in the crime lab and some Q-tips were used and they took some samples from those. You know, I think the official term is swab.

Well, I think you're just over explaining a little bit. Q-tips were used that day. They were. Little baggies were also used. During that search, an additional three other possible stains

were located in the van. And so all of them were swabbed and sent for testing. One was found on the driver's like,

side wall. One was found by the second set of passenger seats and the, like, the rear bench seat. And then another one

was found near like where the ashtray is on the console area okay so those were all sent off to the lab so this is 1991 so there's not dna testing to speak of yet but they do blood typing right and those come back number one positive that they are human blood and number two the same blood type as kathy's and so they're like yeah i mean this looks this looks pretty good but that was the extent of what they got from lloyd and from the search of the van and the search of kathy turned nothing. There was no sign of her at all. And the case went cold. Yeah, this is tough when they don't have a body. Yeah. Months

went by, then years went by, then decades went by. Well, no. DNA caught up. So why not? So this is interesting. So, yes, eventually DNA testing comes up. Sometime in 2004, this case was examined again and somebody sent off those blood samples that they got for DNA testing. But they didn't have a sample of Kathy's DNA. So they had to construct one from her parents. Right.

Okay. And then the person who sent in those samples. Oh no. Went on medical leave. And the lead prosecutor in the county also went on medical leave. Okay. And so the results came back and just like went in a file. Are you kidding me you kidding no one ever

looked at him oh till 22 years after kathy went missing shut up in 2013 this like new detective gets assigned the case he's got this 400 page file on Kathy's case. And the answer is right at the end. And the DNA test results are in there and it's a match. It's Kathy's blood. Wow. Yeah. So even when the blood typing had come back, the

investigators at that time had thought like this was enough. Like this looks good. But the DA had said this isn't enough. Yeah. We don't even know that she had said this isn't enough. Yeah. We don't even know that she's dead. I mean, OK. Yeah. I understand you want an airtight case.

All right. All right. And so when this new detective is looking at it, he's like, holy shit, the DNA is right here. And so it seems like in 2013, when this guy took over the case, they did do like some updated DNA testing to further confirm that this is Kathy. And it was. This is Kathy's DNA. Yeah. Found.

It was her blood in Lloyd Groves' van. Yeah. Lloyd, who says they're just acquaintances. They're not even friends. They certainly weren't having an affair. Right. Right. Yeah.

So this detective, he's like looking through this file. He reads all 400 pages and he's like, this looks like a good case to me. But there's like some, there had been some involvement from the FBI. And so there were like a couple of holes. And so he decided to call the FBI and see if he could get that information that they had. And so he talks to this other detective who's with the FBI. And they're like, hey, why don't you send us over your file? We'll take a look at it.

And there's like this task force that like, I don't know, had a free day or something. And so they decide to look over the case. And they reach out to this detective. And they're like, this looks like a good case. Maybe we just need to resubmit it to the DA and have them look over this. And so through this new detective looking at it and bringing in the right other people to also look at it, they did. They did just that. They presented basically the exact same evidence that had been available to them in 1991 when Kathy went missing with the addition of

this DNA evidence. Well, and the additional fact that no one's seen Kathy. Has seen Kathy for, yeah, for what, 22 years at this point. Yeah, that makes the case stronger. Absolutely. And a grand jury was convened. And finally, in January of 2015, an indictment was handed down for Lloyd Groves. Wow. He was arrested on January 29th, 2015. So the detective who was like the lead on this, he's interviewed on this Dateline episode.

And he's like, it was just like the movies. We showed up at his house at five o'clock in the morning and we waited for him to come out to his car. And then as soon as he came out to his car, we just took him into custody. And Josh Mankiewicz is like, what was his reaction? And he said he turned and looked at his son and said he needed to find a ride to work. Oh, my God. Yeah. So three weeks after Kathy went missing, Lloyd moved his family to like the other side of Pennsylvania.

He was like left and didn't leave the state, but went to the opposite side of the state, essentially. Good grief. And seemed not shocked at all when all these years later, the police showed up and arrested him for the murder of Kathy Heckel. Holy shit. Yeah. So this thing would hit like three and a half years of delays after Lloyd was charged. Initially, he was ordered to be held for trial. And then like three judges who were assigned to the case recused themselves.

I couldn't find out why. It was like three judges in a row recused themselves. And then finally, jury selection was set to start in July of 2015. And then the defense presented a motion. They wanted to suppress all of that evidence that was taken from Lloyd's van and from his desk at work. So those two initial searches were consented searches. And so they said they shouldn't have been able to take any evidence during a consented search and then they said without that evidence from the consented search there wouldn't have been enough evidence to get enough enough probable cause to get a warrant so even the stuff

that was taken when they finally had a warrant should be suppressed as well oh god okay you're making me nervous but the judge denied that Yeah. And so that was another delay. And so then finally, jury selection was set again to begin in January of 2016. And that judge recused himself. What the hell is happening? No idea. This is your case you're working on? I don't know why these judges recuse themselves.

I couldn't find like what the reasoning was. Okay. So finally in early 2017, Judge Kenneth D. Brown was assigned to the case and he's the guy who sees it through. Okay. So again, the trial is scheduled this time for November of 2017. And then Lloyd Groves has a heart attack in jail while he's being held awaiting trial and requires bypass surgery. And so it was delayed indefinitely while he was recovering from his heart surgery. And again, a trial date is set.

Jury selection is supposed to begin on June 18th, 2018. Then in June of 2018, the defense files a motion for a continuance because the prosecution had just given them new evidence that they had in the case after a new witness came forward. Lloyd Groves' ex-wife. Okay, let's hear it. So she came forward sometime in 2017, 2018. They had been married until 2016. Then they had gotten divorced. And she finally came forward to investigators and said, there is something in this case that I have held back.

So she said that on July 15th, the day that Kathy went missing, Lloyd came home for lunch that day. Like he came home during his lunch break and changed his clothes. And other people had said that he got back to work super late that day from lunch. He missed a two o'clock meeting because he came back so late from his lunch break. So she said at the time that this all happened that she had sought counsel and asked, like, what information do I give to the police? And the advice that she had been given by whatever lawyer she had contacted was only answer their questions. Don't give them any additional information. And so no one had ever asked her if Lloyd came home that day or acted weird or changed his clothes over his lunch hour or whatever.

And so she'd never offered that information up. So she said he came home and then he laundered his own clothes. So she never saw the condition of his clothes that day. And he had some story about how he'd gotten dirty at the plant and needed to change his clothes because he was supposed to give a tour that afternoon and he couldn't have dirty clothes on for the tour. But even she thought it was odd because it was outside of his routine. And then when she finds out that this woman has gone missing from his work and that he is rumored to have been having an affair with her, she thought she could be implicated because

of that. And that's why she could be implicated because of that. And that's why she never told the police. Oh, wow. And it was only like in 2016 or 2017 that she spoke to another lawyer. And they're like, no, no, no, no, no. You cannot be implicated for this. Yeah. You should tell the police everything you know.

And so that's when she came forward. She also said. Was she scared of him? She never said that. She never in anything I found anyway. She never said she was scared of him. But he was a bit odd and had some behavioral things that were kind of odd. He was murdering people.

No, that's not. He was OCD. And so he had like ticks and stuff that he would do around the house. And so I think she just kind of at the time wrote it off as one of those odd behavioral things. And then the more she thought about it and like she also said when she came forward that shortly after Kathy went missing, Lloyd wrote her this letter telling her that he believed he was going to be arrested for Kathy Heckle's murder. And it had all of these like checklists of things that needed to be done around the house and how to do them. How to change the oil in the lawnmower, how to do maintenance on the tractor, how to, yeah, all kinds of stuff like that. Oh, wow. Stuff like that.

Oh, wow. Mm-hmm. She'd stayed married to him all those years. She'd, you know, kind of just written it off as, I don't know, weird behavior. What would you do if Norm wrote you a letter and said, I believe I'm going to be arrested for the murder of this woman. I need you to know, okay, this is how the cats get fed every night. This is, you know, this is how you change the filter on the furnace. Okay.

Honestly, Norm has such high anxiety that I would just be like, Norman, you're going to be okay. You know, yeah, I, knowing all that I know about Norman, I would not suspect that he murdered anyone. I would just suspect that his anxiety was getting the better of him. Yeah, getting the best of him. As happens sometimes to both of us. Yeah. So I think maybe that's how Lloyd's wife took it. him. Yeah. As happens sometimes to both of us. Yeah. So I think maybe that's how Lloyd's wife took it. Okay. Yeah.

The prosecution has this new witness. The defense learns of it. They're like, holy shit, we need a continuance because we got to figure out how to defend against this. Yeah. And so a continuance is given. And then in September of 2018, the defense files a motion to dismiss all the charges against Lloyd Groves because, OK, apparently at some point the prosecution had done a search of Lloyd Groves property. Lloyd Grove's property. I believe the property that he lived on at the time of Kathy's disappearance. So this is years later.

And they do this search and they allow a reporter to be present while they do a search. And so the defense is like, nope. Throw it all out. Throw the whole case out. And the judge denies it. OK. The defense then filed a motion to move the trial to a different county and again the judge denied that and then finally november 14th yeah i am itching for a trial here finally sorry finally november 14th 2018 jury selection began in the murder trial of Lloyd Groves. So trial began on November 19th.

Prosecution laid out their case for the jury. They said that despite the fact that Kathy's remains were never found, she was dead and had been murdered by Lloyd Groves. She was dead and had been murdered by Lloyd Groves. They told the court that there had been no trace of Kathy since July 15th, 1991. There's no evidence that she was alive. Nothing. Yeah. And the prosecution told the jury that their theory was that Lloyd had killed Kathy that day because she had met with him over their lunch to end their affair. The prosecution told the jury that just three weeks after Kathy went missing that Lloyd

moved his family across state, left the Lock Haven area, and then they presented some evidence about the day that Kathy went missing. They called Dennis Taylor to testify. So Dennis Taylor is the guitar player and high school friend that Kathy had just reconnected with. And he testified that he talked to Kathy twice on the phone on July 15th. And the first conversation, he said, was super normal. They arranged a meeting that night at a local restaurant. he said was super normal. They arranged a meeting that night at a local restaurant. And then the second conversation had happened at 1130 a.m. just before Kathy went to lunch.

He said this was the conversation that he kind of told the police a little bit about. Yeah. Like that she'd seemed kind of distracted or kind of off. And in his testimony, he said that Kathy told him that she was going to go with Lloyd on lunch and end their affair. Wait, why didn't he say that earlier? I don't know. What the fuck? There's a bunch of stuff that like didn't come out until like two decades later, like this, like Lloyd's wife coming forward. There's a couple of co-workers that say stuff that they had never said before. I kind of get Lloyd's wife a little more because I do think that there's a possibility that you're afraid. They had kids together. There's a lot of complications there.

Guitar playing golf loving dude doesn't have those complications. No, he doesn't. And it's possible that this information was told to police before in some capacity. Yes, I talked to her. Yes, she seemed upset. She said she was going to police before in some capacity. Yes, I talked to her. Yes, she seemed upset. She said she was going to break it off with Lloyd. Well, how much more do we need? So he says that on that phone call, Kathy wasn't just distant or whatever.

She was upset and frightened. He also testified that there was another day that they had met. They met at a park and that while they were at a park, like sitting on a bench or whatever, that a van had pulled into the parking area. And only after the van left did Kathy say to him, did you see that van that was there? And he was like, yeah, I saw that van. She's like, that's Lloyd. He's following me. This is bullshit. Yeah. This is bullshit that it took this long for a case this obvious to go to trial.

This is utter bullshit. The Dateline episode, they interview like the guy who was like the prosecutor or the DA at the time, the guy who decides if this is enough to prosecute. Wimpy little scared boy. And he said, I'd like you to picture a yardstick. He's like, at the two-inch mark, we've got probable cause. And at the 34-inch mark, we've got reasonable doubt. And everywhere in between there is this case. And without a body, we don't even know how she died.

We don't know where she died. We don't know that we have a case. Okay. Yes. Ideally, you would have a body. Yes. But I don't know that it gets much more airtight than this. I agree.

All of this is circumstantial, but it... No, her blood in his van is not circumstantial. It's not. Might be. No. He says they're not even friends. He says they don't even hang out. Yeah.

Do you want to know what the defense says about the blood in the car? What? Do you want to know what the defense says about the blood in the car? What? Well, if you look into Kathy's medical records, around the same time that lots of people said they saw her hanging out in Lloyd's car. She had her period? No. Oh. She had cut her finger pretty bad at work.

So bad that she'd had to see the medical department three separate times for care of her finger. So maybe her finger just bled in his car. Really? In the car that he says that she's not getting in because they're not friends, they're not having an affair, they're not doing anything? No. I find this case infuriating because there weren't any big, huge developments that led to them finally charging him in this case.

All of the information was there from the beginning. Yeah. I find that so infuriating. DNA definitely helps. Yes, absolutely that helps. And I do think time helps. Because, yes, it does. It proves that she's not here.

She's not out there living anywhere. Yeah, it helps establish that. Yeah. Yeah. But, no, this should have gone to trial a lot sooner. A lot sooner. A lot sooner. Okay, so sorry.

We're back to the trial. Dennis is on the stand. He tells them about that. She said she was going to lunch. She was going to break it off with Lloyd. She was scared. She was frightened. She was upset.

And so Dennis gets off the phone with her. This is his testimony. And, like, ten minutes later, he he's like, tries to call her back. Maybe to tell her not to do it. Maybe like, you know, let's think this through. Let's maybe come up with a better way to do this. And he's told that she's already left for lunch. So then he goes and golfs with his friends.

And then he goes to the place they're supposed to meet that night. And Kathy never shows. The prosecution called a bunch of co-workers of Lloyd and Kathy's to the stand. One person testified that on the morning of July 15th, there was a meeting at the plant that Kathy was at the meeting and Lloyd walked in the room for the meeting, like made eye contact with Kathy, then like stormed out of the room and slammed the door. Okay. Another coworker, Ken Anderson. So this is another piece of evidence that nobody came forward with until years later when they went and reinvestigated this case 22 years later.

So they speak to Ken Anderson, who was an employee at the paper plant at that same time. And he said that on the 15th of July, he overheard an argument between Kathy and Lloyd in a conference room at the paper plant that day. Lloyd was angry. He didn't know the context of what was going on, but they were involved in an argument in a conference room. Yeah. Another employee, Jean Carter, testified that she saw Kathy go to her car for lunch in the parking lot.

She said it was around noon. She went and saw her get in her car. I assume she was also going to lunch. And that then she noticed that Lloyd was also in his van and that his face was red. He had this look of anger on his face and he was staring daggers at Kathy. I mean, this all is so important and it all it. What's your face? You know my face. I think that this original DA was either scared or concerned about their own record a little too much.

I mean, it just. Yeah. There was enough here. There was absolutely enough here. There was absolutely enough here. There was absolutely enough here. And I understand that you want to wait for a body in this case, but I think you do have to have a time limit. A time, yeah, there's some time. Yes, the passage of time is important.

A dangerous person like this just continue to do their thing. Yeah. Or I guess you can because apparently that's exactly what happened here. Yeah. Another employee from the plant testified that Lloyd was due for a meeting at 2 p.m. that day, and he never showed up for it. Right. He came back to work so late that he missed his 2 p.m. meeting.

The communications manager from the paper plant, her name is Julie Brennan, she testified about a note she received on July 18th. The note came from Lloyd and it just asked her to urgently call him. And so she did so. And she said during that call, Lloyd told her that the police had questioned him and they'd searched his van and his desk. And he was calling to make sure that she remembered talking to him on July 15th. I'm sorry, what? To make sure that she remembered that they'd had a conversation at work that day, that he'd been there, he'd been present.

It was really important because he was clearly a suspect. And so she was like, yeah, I mean, I remember interacting with you that day. And she's like, but I didn't interact with you all day. And she's like, so where did you go for lunch that day, Lloyd? And he said that he didn't remember. Give me a break. Yep. Then Catherine Groves testified.

Catherine Groves is Lloyd's ex-wife who he was married to. So remember, she came forward. She told the police, I've been holding back this information. So she testifies about all of that. She also testifies that despite what Lloyd said, July 15th actually was not an ordinary day for them. OK, because he murdered someone. It's their wedding anniversary. Oh, my God.

It's their wedding anniversary. So he'd come home from work that night and they'd fed their children dinner and then they'd gone out on a celebratory anniversary date. Oh, gosh. Mm hmm. And then she testified about how he'd been home that day and on his lunch break, he'd only been home about 15 minutes. She said that he'd changed his clothes when asked about the condition of his clothes. She said she wasn't sure she hadn't seen them because he was very particular about how his clothes. When asked about the condition of his clothes, she said she wasn't sure. She hadn't seen them because he was very particular about how his clothes were laundered. And so he did all of that himself. And then she testified that at some point after July 15th, he'd written her that letter saying, I think I'm going to be arrested. Here's what you need to know about stuff to take care of around the house. On the stand, she was asked about the carpet in the van, when the carpet had been cut out,

when the little carpet sample had been put in its place. And she said that sometime after July 15th, she knew it was after July 15th, she said that Lloyd had told her he needed to replace some of the carpet because some oil had spilled in the van. The prosecution's final witness was a woman that Lloyd had worked with after he left the paper plant. Sometime in the mid-90s, he'd worked with a woman named Gail Taylor. They worked at the health department in Ohio. So where he moved to in Pennsylvania was like on the Pennsylvania-Ohio state line. He moved to Beaver, Pennsylvania three weeks after Kathy went missing, which is very close to the Ohio-Pennsylvania state line. So he worked at the health department in Ohio for some amount of time, the Portage County Health Department.

And he worked with this woman, Gail Taylor. And he worked with this woman, Gail Taylor. She, at some point, years later, came to the police and said, hey, Lloyd said something super fucking weird to me. She said that one day she'd gone into work. She was all flustered. She was really upset because she'd found drugs in her son's room. And so she was just like in a room of her coworkers. And Lloyd happened to be present in there.

Maybe it was only Lloyd. Maybe there was someone else in there. Hard her coworkers and Lloyd happened to be present in there. Maybe it was only Lloyd. Maybe there was someone else in there. Hard to know. It didn't specify in the testimony. And she was complaining about finding these drugs. And she's like, I'm worried about him. Like, if the drugs don't kill him, I will. That's what she said about her son. And she said that Lloyd said, I can show you how to get rid of a body so it can never be found.

Oh, God. Mm-hmm. So on cross-examination, the defense tried to get her to admit that, like, this was a joke that Lloyd said. Mm-hmm. And she's like, I mean, the idea here is, like, kind of yes if just anybody says that, you know. You can see it as a joke. You would always hope that that's a joke but not a guy who's been investigated for a murder where a body has never been found yeah i mean that's not super strong evidence but no it is evidence of creepiness

it is you take note of that yes we do we sure do so then it was the defense's turn and they said that lloy Lloyd was innocent. And that some of this evidence, some of these people's memories, you know, 20-some years had gone by. How could they even be sure about the testimony they were giving? And how come some of this stuff hadn't come out until so many years later? And let's all think about a yardstick for a second. That's right. Yeah, they also talked about how you can't even still be sure that Kathy's dead. Yeah,

that's always the thing, isn't it? Even John himself, they said her husband had, you know, after her disappearance had come to police with a couple of things that he thought maybe were signs that she was still alive. There was some swingingers magazine that he found and there was a picture of a woman in the Swingers magazine that bore a resemblance to Kathy. So he had to admit that he was looking at the Swingers magazine? Well, so he had to admit that like, yeah, so he was like, they put him on the stand and he was like, you know, I do remember

that. I do recall that. And I think I was just grasping at anything for hope that my wife was still alive. I think that's very common. Yeah. When you lose someone, you think you see them. Yes. Yeah. And that's not.

Now, if he had said like, hey, look at, you know, her bank card is still active and we got, you know. So the defense told the jury that John Heckle never was looked into as much as she should have been. He did some unusual things after Catherine went missing. That thing with the swingers magazine. He also at one point told the police that there was like this joint bank account that he had that he thought had more money in it than was in it now.

And he's like, is it possible that she transferred that money to another bank account and, you know, whatever. And police apparently looked into it and they're like, no, no, no, this didn't happen. No. And again, so they called him to the stand and he said of those things like, I was literally grasping at anything. Right. At some hope that my wife might still be out there. Right.

They also said that he threw away Kathy's purse and photo ID after she went missing. And they made this big point about this at this trial. He didn't just throw this away in their trash can at home. He took it to his National Guard armory and he threw it in the back dumpster where no one would see it. Really? Yeah. So he says he has no recollection of doing this. That's what he says on the stand.

OK. Well, and is her blood in his vehicle? Did he rip out? No. Yeah. So he says he has no recollection of doing this. That's what he says on the stand. Okay. Well, and is her blood in his vehicle? Did he rip out parts? Yeah. No. Then shut the fuck up. Yeah. Sorry.

I've lost patience. I know. So the defense, their whole case is basically the police only looked into things that would make Lloyd look guilty and ignored all of the other things here. So is that why this went to trial so quickly? Yeah, exactly. They had their blinders on and they were just going so fast. Yeah. So they said specifically with Dennis Taylor. So he said the thing about he went golfing that day, right? Well, police didn't even look into his alibi until 13 months later.

Okay. Well, yeah, they definitely should have. They absolutely should have. And when they went to that golf course to look into his alibi until 13 months later. Okay, well, yeah, they definitely should have looked into his alibi. They absolutely should have. And when they went to that golf course to look into his alibi, it was just like a log book that you have to sign in, and pages from the log book were missing. Yeah, that's not great. Yeah, it's not great. Yeah. Does he have her blood in his car?

He does not. No. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Does he have her blood in his car? He does not. No. So the defense did call Dennis Taylor to the stand and Dennis admitted that he had waited a long time to tell the police the exact details of the call that he had had with Kathy that day. He didn't really know why. He just I don't know, he just hadn't given, he had said, you know, what he thought was important, that she seemed off somehow, but not, he didn't fully explain it. Dennis is an idiot. Yeah, I mean, I think it's just a mistake. It's a huge mistake.

Absolutely. That he could have corrected. Yes. Literally any time. Yeah. Sorry, he might be a perfectly nice guy. But no, why be coy? Yeah.

I don't know that he necessarily thought he was being coy, but I think... You are being a coy boy when you don't say, like, she was afraid of this guy. She was going to meet this guy specifically, who she was afraid of, who stalked her. You know. Okay, continue with this fucking case. I hate this. you know okay continue with this fucking case i hate this um so the defense told the jury most of the evidence that the prosecution has presented to you you should just disregard it it's not even relevant terrible for our case so we just don't know it is not even relevant they

called a witness from the paper plant who said that they were pretty sure that Lloyd was there at the plant in the afternoon of July 15th. Oh, well, great. Yeah. They also called another witness who said that they believed they'd seen Kathy driving in her car a day or two after she was reported missing. Okay. Okay. Yeah. All right.

Can we fast forward through this stupid shit? And then they talked about that DNA evidence. That stuff that I already told you. Sure. Yeah. A little bit of Kathy's blood was found in Lloyd's car. But she had cut her finger at work. Bad cut.

It was a bad cut. She required three different trips to the medic to get it taken care of. And so, yeah, maybe she bled in Lloyd's car. Well, she broke into his car and bled in Lloyd's car except she wasn't having an affair with him and they were never hanging out in the car together which fucking one is it she broke into

the car rudely bled on it and then got out ridiculous it's ridiculous this is stupid. And what, are they going to lock this guy up when he's 75 and he dies two weeks later? Oh, shit.

Oh, no. No, not exactly. But yeah, he's fucking old now. He was like 67 when he was arrested. And then all this time goes by before he finally gets to fucking trial. That's the prosecution. That's the the defense that's the whole trial the jury deliberated for several hours over two days the it seems unnecessary oh my gosh okay their initial vote came back eight four in favor of conviction so they interviewed the jury foreman on the Dateline episode and he talks about it. And he was

set on acquittal. He thought there were too many. If you looked at each individual piece of the prosecution's case, you could poke a hole in any of them. He said, only when you look at them all together. Well, that's what you do. That's what you fucking do!

Dumbass. So ultimately, ultimately the jury found Lloyd not guilty of first degree murder, but guilty of third degree murder. Mm hmm. Did he get a one hour? So legally, that means they believed that Lloyd killed Kathy in a spontaneous act. OK. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fine.

What's he get? Come on. At his sentencing on January 17th, 2019, Lloyd Groves told the Kurt. Kurt. Told the Kurt. He told the lemon curd. Kurt. He told the court, I hurt no one.

I committed no crime. But you got away with it for a very long time. Let's cut the bullshit. He would not look at Kathy's relatives as they gave their victim impact statements. Margaret Dolan, who is Kathy's mom, said in her statement, I feel Mr. Groves has my daughter's blood on his hands. He refuses to tell us what happened in July of 1991. That'd be horrible. It would be horrible. Kathy's daughter Alicia fought back tears as she gave her statement. She talked about how she got, you know, her last kiss from her mom that day. She got to talk to her one last time on

the phone, but she didn't know at the time those were the lasts. And so she never got to say goodbye. She said, our family has never been the same. My God, that scared the shit out of me. That sounded like a gunshot. Sure fucking did. Pretty close. Your dad's right. Yeah. KC Moe is not safe. Everyone, we don't know if we'll cut that, but that sounded like a gunshot. It sounded like it was right outside my house. Her brother, John, said he killed my mother. He should spend the rest of his life in prison. Yeah, what's left of it.

John Heckle III, Kathy's husband. So he had her legally declared dead seven years after she disappeared for insurance purposes, essentially. He did at some point remarry, but he still like so they Josh Mankiewicz asked him on this episode. He's like, are you are you mad that Kathy was having these affairs? And he's like, he's like, Kathy had this secret life. And he goes, yeah, but you and I, we don't know how long this secret life was going on. Maybe that morning when she said, why do you have to go so early? Maybe if I would have stayed, she would have ended it all and just been with me.

He said, I'm not mad at her for being human. That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So at the sentencing, he said, did Kathy deserve to lose her life for ending an affair? Judge Kenneth D. Brown sentenced Lloyd Groves to a term of 10 to 20 years, the maximum sentence available at the time of the crime. The maximum had been upped in 1995 to 20 to 40 years, but they weren't able to sentence on those guidelines because the crime happened in 1991.

When the judge imposed this sentence, he said he absolutely would have sentenced him to more time if he was able to. Yeah. And he cited three aggravating factors in the case. He said the disposal of the body that caused further trauma to the family. Yep. He said that Lloyd Groves was aware that his victim was the mother of two children and that he was taking this woman from her children. And then he said his third aggravating factor was that Lloyd's never shown any remorse over this. Lloyd Groves did appeal his conviction. In his appeal, he argued that the evidence of his searches from his van and his desk should have been suppressed.

And he also argued that Dennis Taylor should never have been allowed to testify. I'm not really sure what his beef with Dennis Taylor was, but the appeals court confirmed his conviction and his sentence, said that he had done consented searches of the van. So nice try. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the story of a disappearance. Kathy's body has never been found. Yeah.

And her family says that they pretty much come to terms that it never will be. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. How horrible. Yeah. I hated that. I know. Why'd you pick that one? I'm sorry. Okay.

Now we need to do an ad yes we do lady should we take some questions from the discord yes we should but what the hell are you talking about to get in the discord which is like a 90s style chat room all you have to do is join our patreon at the five5 level or higher. Ooh, Dup and Ditz wants to know, do you drink unsweetened tea? That's basically a sin down here in the South. Our tea is sweet enough to put

on pancakes. Yeah. This bitch over here drinks exclusively unsweetened tea. By this bitch over here, who are you? You. I'm referring to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right. I like sweet tea. I also like unsweet tea. Well, yeah. Sweet tea is delicious.

But, my God. Why do a sugar-free sweet tea? Ew. Like, oh, hold on. What the hell are you talking about? Like, some kind of canned? No. So, I do Red Diamond. It comes in like the gallon jugs and it's sweetened with Splenda. I suppose I'll let you live your life.

Karen, like the memes wants to know if we see one of you in the wild, would it creep you out if we say hi? Oh, I'm going to some Royals games in August and I had a dream that I saw Brandy there. No, say hi if you see me in the wild. Absolutely. Absolutely say hi. It'd make me feel so cool. Right? Yes.

Yes. True Crime and Taco Bell said, what's one of your what the fuck moments that you haven't previously shared from working in any kind of customer service job? I once had a lady call into my office, ask me a question, and when I started to answer, she interrupted to say, I can't talk right now. I'm in the bath. That is so amazing. Okay, the first one that comes to my mind is when I was a wee cashier at Walgreens, and I answered the phone phone and it was a woman

inquiring about another one of our locations. And she was like, I can't find the phone number for your location at such and such intersection. And it was actually a place I was familiar with. And I was like, yeah, I'm sorry. That's not that's not a Walgreens. That's actually an Osco that's there. And she goes, OK, do you have their number?

OK, what the fuck is up with people like that? I was like, no, ma'am, I do not have the number. I had that happen to me at a job when I was a PR person. This reporter called thinking we were one organization. He had the wrong organization. Yeah. And he's like, well, do you have their number? And it's like, dude, you're the one who fucked up.

Yes. Do you not have Google? Right. Next bonus episode. So that's when we ask people the questions. That's when we turn the tables on them. And we should ask about their ridiculous customer service stories. Tiffany's

asks, have you seen Crime Scene Kitchen? I'm obsessed. Do you watch that show? I do not. I've not seen it. Have you? You're missing out. Okay, tell me the premise of it. I've heard of it, but I don't know. I don't really know what it is. Hosted by Joel McHale. Okay, I love Joel McHale. Yes. So immediately,

we're off to a good start. So it's a cooking challenge show and basically these groups, you go into this kitchen where something has been cooked and you look at the clues and you try to recreate exactly what was cooked in that kitchen. Okay, that sounds cool as fuck. What I love about it is that the thing I hate about so many American cooking shows is that there's all this drama. Yeah. It's so over-the-top dramatic. Yeah. And I know it sounds kind of ironic because it's called Crime Scene Kitchen and stuff, and they've got all the dramatic lighting.

But, like, they're kind of making fun of it a little bit. Like, they don't lose sight of the fact that they're making meringues. Right. So that's what I enjoy about it. I will be watching it. Very good. Ooh, I think this is a great question. Munchie Potato wants to know, what are your thoughts on calling someone's cell phone early in the morning?

My husband thinks it's a dick move, but I argue that the onus is on the person to set do not disturb on their phone or put their phone on silent. Hold on. the onus is on the person to set do not disturb on their phone or put their phone on silent we have too much technology for you for you to be upset you were woken up i totally disagree no it's a dick move yeah you're a dick it's a dick move you're a dick i can't put my phone on do not serve because what if there's an emergency well okay you're just gonna get people who are like well here's what you do you know you you set it so that certain numbers can't. But here's the thing. No. No. We're living in a society.

Don't call before a certain time. Don't call after a certain time. What is the time? I think it does depend on the person. Yeah. I do, too. I think nine. Nine.

I was going to say nine, too. Nine a.m. Yeah. Yep. And I could even go as late as 10 in the evening. You can call between the hours of 9 and 10. Well, you're a real wild woman, aren't you? Also, you can always just send a quick text message and see if that person is up before you fucking call them.

Then they're going to think you want to bang. No. You up? No! No! No. You up? No!

Mix Fritz wants to know, what's your favorite deep sea creature? It's an octopus. Oh, okay. I was laughing at the idea of having one. Mine is an octopus because it is both the symbol for the Dirty Heads, my favorite band, the symbol for the Dirty Heads, my favorite band, and Mark Hoppus, who's the bass player for one of my other favorite bands, Blink-182. Okay, well, that was fascinating. And I just heard my dog starting to cry, so we're going to do Supreme Court inductions now. Let's wrap it up and do Supreme Court inductions.

You didn't care at all about my love for Octopi. I already know about your love for the Dirty Heads and Blink-182 and all those other slow jam bands. I saw Dirty Heads last night. It was wonderful. All right. We are continuing to do names and your first celebrity crushes to get inducted into the Supreme Court. All you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. Are you ready?

That's good. You look concerned. Okay. No, I'm good. I'm good. Amanda, pronounced Peggy. Michael Landon. Kelly Vaughn.

Lisa Bonet. Sheena Yamazaki. The Spice Girls. All five of them. That's great. Jaya Riggins. Michael B. Jordan. Marissa Favaro.

Matt Damon. Maggie Davis. Christopher from Gilmore Girls. Sorry, Maggie. Who liked Christopher? Leah Church. Carmen Electra. Shannon Jay.

Lance Bass. Jocelyn Y. Joey McIntyre. Leanne DeShays Seth Green Did you like that one? Yeah! Callie W

Chris O'Donnell Karen McIntosh Patrick Swayze Erin Legate Kevin Jonas Yes, I'm gay now. Rebecca S Robin Williams

Fern Whiting Kyle Schmidt Megan Aylward. Leonardo DiCaprio. Melissa Nielsen. John Travolta. April Dooley. Danny Wood. Hannah Miller. 2003 live action Peter Pan.

Jen B. Kirk Cameron. Who knew he was such a douche? Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you everyone for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us,

please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new cases. Topics. Topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff,

then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the episode of American Experience titled The Island Murder and FamousTrials.com. I got my info from an episode of Dateline, ChillingCrimes.com, The Williamsport Sun Gazette, ReportingForPenLive.com, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCPodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.