Let's Go To Court! - 259: The Kidnapping of Ginny Piper

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

We’ve got big news to share… and boy are we nervous to share it. In this episode, we announce a change to the show’s format that will hopefully give us better work/life balance. From this point forward, we’ll present one case per week instead of two. This week, Kristin will share a case. Next week, it’ll be Brandi’s turn, and so on and so forth. This isn’t a change we’re taking lightly. As you probably know, we are anxiety-ridden people pleasers. We’re pretty damn apprehensive about messing with something that we’ve worked so hard to build. Unfortunately, the truth is that we’ve hit a breaking point. The time that it takes both of us to research, write, record and review an episode means that we have a lot less time for the other things that matter to us. For Kristin, that means that the novel she’s working on is on track to be finished in a quarter to never. For Brandi, it means not spending much time with the little family she wanted for so long.  We’re hoping that by making this change, we’ll keep the show fresh, prevent burnout, and give us some much needed time to harass our families. We’re grateful to all of you for supporting us. We hope you’ll continue to support us as we move to this new format. Back to your regularly scheduled programming… This week, Kristin covers a case that is often referred to as the “perfect” kidnapping. When Ginny Piper was kidnapped from her upscale home in Orono, Minnesota, investigators were a little puzzled. The Pipers were wealthy and well connected, but they didn’t have the money or name recognition of other nearby families. Why hadn’t they gone after the Pillsburys? The kidnappers also seemed to have wanted to kidnap Ginny’s husband, Bobby. But why had they thought a businessman would be home on a Thursday afternoon? As the investigation continued, the questions kept coming. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Kristin read a bunch of articles, then spat them back out in her very limited vocabulary. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “Stolen from the Garden, The kidnapping of Virginia Piper,” by William Swanson “The ‘Perfect’ Kidnapping of Virginia Piper: Three-Part Series,” by Tracy Briggs for The Globe “50 years later, the Virginia Piper kidnapping remains a Minnesota mystery,” by Curt Brown for the Star Tribune  An episode of the Crimes of the Centuries podcast, “The $1 Million Kidnapping of Ginny Piper” YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 47+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the kidnapping of Jenny Piper. And I'll be listening.

Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Ooh, we got a big announcement, folks, right off the top. You know what? I think I'm going to start us off on this. Okay. Because you're the most nervous? Well, last week you gave me some homework to do. Uh-huh.

Yeah. I had a startling revelation during my case last week that I hadn't spent much time on, and you asked me to spend more time on it. And I did. To be clear, I didn't ask you to spend more time on your case. No, I'm thinking about the revelation that I made. Yes, all right. Very good. Very good. And that revelation was that I am married to work. And you are absolutely right. I need a better work-life balance. I have a beautiful family that I have waited a very long time for, and I want to spend more time with them. The tragic thing is that you might spend more time with them and find out that they suck. They don't suck.

You don't know until you spend more time with them. No, so everyone, change is happening on this podcast. Yeah, but I think it's really good change. Okay, Brandi, you sound like you're in a cult right now. Maybe I am in a cult. No, you're very nervous, and that's okay. I am nervous. And that's okay.

Yeah. Trying to put on a brave face for the troops. Okay, so everyone, for a while now, I have been pushing for us to do one case per week. Yeah. I just think it's the change we need to make in our lives. So for me personally, we've been doing this podcast for five years. I have been trying to write a book alongside it. And holy crap, is that the slowest process possible.

So I realized that I'm at this weird place where I can either move forward the way we're currently moving forward and never finish a book. Or we could make an adjustment. And I feel like we'd have a better life balance. And so that's what we're doing. So, yeah, we are debuting a new structure to this show where just one of us will be doing a case each week.

You'll still get the same amount of episodes each month. Our Patreon structure won't change at all. Our bonus episode structure won't change. We'll still go through cases for that. But each week

we will just be covering one case and we will alternate weeks. And I am nervous about it. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I'm nervous about changing the structure of this thing that we have spent five years working really hard to build. But I think it's super important for the sustainability of this show. Number one. it's super important for the sustainability of this show number one number two our mental health yeah and third and most importantly to me is is my figuring out my work-life balance yeah yeah this is really important to me and for my little family yeah and so I hope you will continue to support us in this change I actually think that this will make the show better. Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully everybody's on board. And I know not everybody will be. I know some people will be upset about this, but that's OK. It's OK. Yeah. And this is the change that needs to happen. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Or does it? No, but okay. Our intention was not to just spring this change on you. Yeah. There's actually a reason that Brandy is. Yes. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah. Yeah.

So, okay. Sorry. This is going to be kind of a long intro to this episode, which I know people don't love, but whatever. Yeah, I have had a crazy week. The Pond family has had a crazy week. Last Tuesday, actually, David started getting really bad abdominal pain, so bad that on Wednesday he went to urgent care and was told, basically, we don't know what's going on with you.

It seems like just like you ate something weird and your gut health is off and you just got to let it run its course. Had he been sucking on chili dogs? He had not. He had not sucked on a single chili dog. But David symptoms me. So he just was like really bloated, very just he felt like he was just filled with gas, but like, you know, could do nothing to relieve that. His symptoms seem so similar to me to when my sister Casey had shingles that I was like, babe, I think you have shingles. But then he was like, I can't have shingles because I've never

had chickenpox, which also I'm not 70. Yeah. Which is is true, you know, for 99 percent of people, 99 percent of people who have not had chickenpox cannot get shingles. There's this tiny 1% of people who get shingles from their chickenpox vaccine. And David is that 1%. Just a very special, big butted white boy. So he was officially diagnosed with shingles on Friday after his rash finally appeared. And then also a stomach bug descended on our home. London got it first. Then David got it. Then I got it. Then Jackson got it.

It's been a wild ride. There's been lots of vomit and feces in my home. And even amidst all of that, you still wanted to prepare a case. I did and I felt terrible for not doing a case even with all that going on and that is fucked up it's really fucked it's really fucked up so this is a very necessary change for me and my mental health everyone I don't know if you can tell that I forced this a little bit but I forced it a little bit, but I forced it a little bit. Yeah, but it needed to be done. Yeah, no.

It needed to be done. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I didn't do it to be mean. No, you did not. So it's funny because we were talking about how, like, right now, at the pace we go right now, we can do it. Yeah.

We can do it fine. Now, a lot of stuff has to fall by the wayside, but we can do it. Except when one thing goes wrong. You can't do it. If even one thing happens out of the schedule of the week. Right. The whole, what's the phrase that topples the whole cart or whatever? Bananas go flying.

That's what they say. That is what they say. The bananas go flying. Yeah, I mean, it just, it means that, like, nothing can ever go wrong. Yeah. And that's not life. Unfortunately, no. No.

Sometimes the whole family gets the pee butt poops. That's right. That's right. And sometimes you walk into your sweet little baby's bedroom in the morning and she's just covered in liquid poo. Welcome to the podcast, everyone. If it's your first time listening to us, my oh my, have you picked a good one. We don't often start off with long talks about our work-life balance or the butt that has come out of nearby anuses, but sometimes we do, and that's what you've stumbled upon today. The butt that has come out of nearby anuses?

No, I said poo, didn't I? You did not. Patty, rewind that. I'm pretty sure I'm right. Or the butt that has come out of nearby anuses. Hold for applause. Oh, okay. We realize that's right.

Oh, boy. Yeah, but I am confident that this is absolutely the right decision for us, but I'm nervous as fuck about it. And I'm scared. Well, no, I mean, we make this podcast hoping that people will enjoy it. Yeah. And we know that people might get mad. They might get mad. And boy, do people like to tell us when they're mad.

Brandy, how could you? Don't blame it on me! This was all Brandy's idea. She said, you know what? I'm feeling lazy. That's what I want to do. Is that right? Yeah. I need more time to sit on my couch and eat bonbons.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with that. By the way, what is a bonbon? I think it's like a chocolate-covered cream thing. You wouldn't eat that. No, I would not. Yeah. No.

That whole premise was a lie. The bananas are a-flying right now, I'll tell you that. And now, I think we should... Topples the apple cart. Oh, that is what you're saying. Now, I think we should... Topples the apple cart. Oh, that is a good thing to say. Isn't it funny that we came up with a fruit-based one, though?

The pears are tumbling. Okay, anyway, are you ready for this case? I am. First of all, do you know a goddamn thing about it? No, and I'm shocked. I know a goddamn thing about it? No. I'm, and I'm shocked. I'm a little shocked too. Yeah.

And frankly appalled. Okay. Okay. This, this is really something. The book I read for this is called Stolen from the Garden, The Kidnapping of Virginia Piper by William Swanson. I read some other stuff, but then I figured out, hold on. All of it just pulls from the book. Yeah, all these other people are just pulling from his book.

So this is a book report. Yeah, great. This book is really good, and it's a super fast read if you're looking for something to pick up. I read it in two days, and not just because I had to, although I did have to read it that quickly, but I enjoyed it. Okay. Brandy, this story has everything money a kidnapping cheese sandwiches cheese sandwiches yeah and I bring it to you today on this day when you were too lazy to prepare a

case sorry I made that joke before we had this big revelation. Before I cried this morning. I'm sorry. That is why it was so funny to listen to you at the beginning of this recording. You sounded like you had a gun to your head. You're like, well, I'm very excited about this change. I wasn't sobbing an hour ago. It's fine. All right. Here we fine. All right.

Here we go. Picture it. July 27th, 1972 in Orono, Minnesota. Great. Orono, she didn't. Okay. There we go. That's good.

Virginia Piper was at her beautiful home, living the dream. Jenny, as she liked to be called, was quite privileged. She'd grown up in a wealthy family, and she'd attended Pine Manor College in Massachusetts. Oh, fuck, that sounds fancy. Yeah. I've never heard of it, but it sounds fancy as hell. Well, at the time, it was a women's college. Oh.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know all about that. Rumor has it. She wanted to go to the best women's college in Massachusetts, which is, of course, Simmons. But she wasn't cool enough. So that happens to the slum at Pine Manor. She eventually met and fell in love with a guy named Harry Piper. Sorry.

I knew you'd laugh at that. How old are you? It's just such an image of, like, the Pied Piper just, like, covered in hair, dancing around. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, no other images are coming to your mind? No, I didn't think of a dick at all. Well, I think you did, just judging by the fact that you brought it up.

I can see that's what you were insinuating. No. Harry went by Bobby. What? Yeah, that's fucking ridiculous, right? Is his name Harold Robert? No, it is not. It is absolutely not. Okay, now this is stupid, but I have to admit this. Yeah. So I'm reading all these other sources at first. Okay. Now, this is stupid, but I have to admit this.

Yeah. So I'm reading all these other sources at first. Right. This was before I was like, I'm going to go wall in and get the book. Yeah. And every source was like, his name was Harry. He went by Bobby. And I was like, what?

Why? Why? How do you get to Bobby from Harry? Well, the book tells you. And it's the dumbest reason I've ever heard in my life. Okay. Okay. First of all, if you had to guess how he...

Well, I already told you that his name is Harold Robert, and... Okay. Yeah, that's how I would guess. That's a good guess. Yes. The actual reason is that his sister, when he was really little, was having trouble saying brother. Oh, yeah.

So she said kind of Bubby and then it turned into Bobby. But then for the rest of his entire life. Yeah I grew up with a kid who his brother called him Bubba and so that's how he went all through high school. Like we went to high school with this kid. Are you talking about

Bubba? No I'm not talking about my neighbor Bubba. Oh okay. We went to high school with two Bubbas. Both originally named Harry. Okay. I'm sorry. I thought you were talking to me about our friend's husband. I was like, you can just tell me.

No. All right. Okay. Wait, is that how he got his nickname too? I have no idea. Okay. Hmm. Yeah, that brings up a lot of questions for me.

All right, okay. Bobby went to Princeton. He was very serious and analytical, and in that sense, he and Ginny were a little different. Ginny was obviously intelligent as well, but she was definitely the fun one of the couple. She was charming, and unlike her more introverted husband, she could talk to anybody. So they made a pretty good match. They had three sons, Harry, Tad, and David. Tad?

Tad. Okay. Is that short for something? Tad-ly? Tadpole? I don't know. Sorry, that was stupid, but also I don't know. Okay.

And I like that they have a Harry and David. I know, right? I bet there was no shortage of moose munch at their house. Bobby made great money. Obviously, if you got moose munch by the barrel. That's right. He was the CEO and chairman of Piper, Jaffrey, and Hopwood. What do they do? They're like an investment bank thingy that offers financial service thingies. Okay. And it had actually been founded in 1895. Bobby's dad had been the one to put the Piper in Piper Jaffrey.

All right. Under Bobby's leadership, the company had flourished. They had, you know, a bunch of employees. They had offices all over the United States. So, you know, Bobby and Jenny were doing well. They lived in an upscale, fairly remote neighborhood. They had a beautiful two-story colonial home with a pool. And not that you care, but there's like a lot of greenery and stuff.

Remind me what state they're in again. Minnesota. Minnesota, yes. Oh, no, she didn't. Not that you care, but there's like a lot of greenery and stuff. Remind me what state they're in again. Minnesota. Minnesota. Yes. Oh, no, she didn't. I remembered that part, but I couldn't remember. I forgot that I had said that.

And I was like, what are you? Oh, no, she didn't mean me. They had some fancy ass neighbors. Uh-huh. The Pillsbury's. Oh, shit. Yes. Live nearby. The fucking Pillsbury's. Oh shit. Yes. Live nearby.

The fucking Pillsbury's. Yeah. Okay. Everyone, she's so proud of herself. Not too far away was the home that had been built for the son

of the founder of General Mills. So, the Pipers were rich, but, I mean, they weren't the richest people in their own neighborhood.

And they didn't have the biggest name recognition because you don't hear Piper and go, aha. Yeah. No, you don't. Or cha-ching. Okay. What? It's also, you know. What?

Probably too common of a name. That's true. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. Tragic. Yeah. I'm very sorry.

I'm concerned because that's not a freshly opened coffee. How long has that been sitting there? Since this morning. Okay. It's an iced coffee, you know. Okay. If it gets to room temp, it's still good. Okay.

It's not like regular. All right. Everyone. like regular... Alright. Everyone. The workaholic has been taken away from her work and now she's getting sassy with me. The withdrawals

are already starting. I did think you were going to be mean to me. Why did you think I was going to be mean to you? Because I was going to push for us to work less and I was afraid that I was like coming up and smacking the heroin out of your hand.

No, there's very, two very distinct sides of my brain. One who is like logically like, yeah, you have to make this fucking change. 100%, you don't have a choice. And then the other side of my brain is like, what if everybody hates you now because of it? Like, and so, no, I mean, I'm never going to be mean to you.

Yeah, you would. Why? When people are upset, they say wild things. I would never be mean to you. What if everybody, what if she called me Big Boobs McGee? That's not mean. Too beautiful to podcast. I start crying and I'm like, Brandy, no one takes me seriously because I'm so hot.

And you're like, ah, ha, ha. Anyway, so the Piper's... I'm just like by nature, not a mean person. Well, but you can say mean stuff. Brandy, you're human.. Brandy, you're human. Yeah. Yeah, you're human. I can't imagine a scenario where I would say something mean to you.

You're my best friend. What if I say something mean to you? Big tits McGee. Big tits McGee Okay this is getting weird So the Pipers were rich But they definitely weren't the richest Not even in their own neighborhood They didn't have Pillsbury money

Or maybe since you don't have the money You have to go ho ho They also didn't have the money, you have to go ho-ho. Ho-ho. They also didn't have the flashiest lifestyle. Oh. But they did burp while they were trying to podcast. And it wasn't very professional. Bobby drove an Oldsmobile, and he hadn't even sprung for the AM FM radio because that cost extra.

That sounds like a Daryl Pitts move. I know. I know. God help us all. And the fact that Bobby bragged about it. It's also a DP move. It's full on DP. Also, they didn't employ a full time maid or chauffeur or butler. Can you imagine a full time butler?

No. What do they even do? Butler things. You know. and they open the door. Oh, yes. Okay. So again, they were rich but not flashy. And not super well-known. And that's what made the events of July 27, 1972 so unexpected.

By that point, Ginny was almost 50. The boys were all grown, and she had grandchildren she loved and family close by, so it wasn't uncommon for the kids or grandkids to just drop by unannounced, hop in the pool, or just sit around and chat. That day, Ginny went and got her hair done. She got her nails done. That was typical. She liked to look put together.

And it was a Thursday, so naturally, just as they did every week, two cleaning ladies, Bernice and Vernetta, were there cleaning the Piper home. What? Oh, okay, never mind. Sorry. What? They don't have a full-time maid. I was like, what the fuck do they have two extra cleaning ladies What? They don't have a full-time maid. I was like, what the fuck they have two extra cleaning ladies coming in for if they have a full-time maid?

No, they don't. I got it now. I love how that's said, though. Because, yeah, when someone says don't have a full-time maid, to me it just automatically goes no maid. Yeah, exactly. But no, that's not. They actually have two women once a week who come and clean the house. All right.

As they worked, Jenny was out in her backyard deadheading pansies. Yes. My mother, just a couple weeks ago, tried to teach me about it, and I got so bored that I said, I have to leave. And I went inside. You don't deadhead your pansies? I mean, I don't leave. And I went inside. You don't deadhead your pansies? I mean, I don't know. Sometimes.

That's not a hard question, Kristen. Well, I mean, my mom was like, you have to, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And look here, and you have to do blah. And I mean, it felt like a very long conversation. I don't think it actually was. But I listened for what was a tolerable amount of time. And I was just like, man, there are other people inside who aren't going to talk to me about deadheading pansies. Yeah.

I did notice you have a new potted plant outside. What is it? Guess who brought it? Your mom? Yeah. And the other day I noticed there were some dead spots. Did you deadhead it? Guess who brought it? Your mom. Yeah. And the other day I noticed there were some dead spots. Did you deadhead it? Yeah, but I just kind of knocked up against it and a bunch of shit fell off.

So, I mean, try to tell me that's wrong. So, Jenny was out there doing the deadheading of the pansies and And she was wearing a blazer and cotton pants. Because, of course, she was. I got so scared. What? That you were about to say cotton panties for some reason. Oh, that'd be hot. Wouldn't that be kind of a cute look?

You've got to admit. Of course. But, yeah, no, she's not outside. Okay. That would be your nightmare. It would be. So, you know, Jenny's out there fully clothed doing her thing when all of a sudden one of the cleaning ladies bernice came running out of the house just panicked and she said oh those men jenny was confused she walked toward the house and there, standing in her home, were two men dressed all in black and they had a gun in each hand.

Oh, my gosh. It was terrifying. The men had worked very hard to conceal their identities. Not even a patch of skin was showing. They wore these weird, like, I mean, some places call them masks, but they're more like hoods because so the hoods were kind of like black nylon stockings, but they had red borders around their faces and there was like a black felt piece on the top of their heads. And there was a piece of black cloth that went around their necks.

What? Bizarre, right? Yeah. I don't, I can't even really picture i know at first i was like thinking it was like a balaclava but it's not even really that so i wondered if the felt was to obscure their hairline and hair color some more i i don't even know honestly all right but obviously very scary. Yeah. As soon as the men spotted Ginny, they instructed her to get the woman who'd just run out of the house.

Ginny did as she was told. She convinced Bernice to come back inside. And so there the three women were, surrounded by these gun-wielding, mystery, stocky men. The gunmen got to work taping Bernice and Vernetta to a pair of living room chairs. As this was going on, Jenny did her best to stay calm. One of the men asked her,

are you Mrs. Piper? And she said yes. And he asked her, where's your old man? And she said her husband was at work. And both of the guys got so annoyed. One of them turned to the other and said, why that goddamn Chino,

that son of a bitch, he fucked up again. One of them asked, what does that mean? Not sure. What do you think it means? I don't know. Somebody fucked up, though.

Nothing gets past this one. One of them asked Jenny where the safe was, and she told them the truth. They didn't have a safe. But she did have jewelry, and she told them, I've got jewelry upstairs in my bedroom. You know, go take whatever you want. She made it clear that, you know, she's not trying to stop them from taking anything. Just take what you want and go. But then one of the men handcuffed her. He said, you're going with us. This wasn't a robbery. Jenny was being kidnapped. This wasn't a robbery.

Ginny was being kidnapped. One of the men stuck a gun in her back and directed her outside to a green two-door Monte Carlo. Meanwhile, the other gunman dropped an envelope in the living room. On the envelope was just one word. Family. Oh. All right. What is this?

Fast and Furious? Yeah, and they hop in the Monte Carlo and speed away. Okay. I'm sorry. I realized that was very inappropriate of me to use the Vin Diesel voice. Should I take it again? No, I don't think so. I think it's good. So, I mean, it's a really scary situation, but, you know, kidnappings, I guess, can be a little awkward. Now the gunman had to get Ginny in the back seat of their vehicle, but, you know, kidnappings, I guess, can be a little awkward. Now the gunman had to get Ginny in the back seat of their vehicle, but they kind of fumbled trying to get the passenger seat to come forward.

They don't have a four-door for this thing? No, it's a two-door car. Oh, shit. This seems like poor planning. Well, and also, it didn't seem like they were very well-versed in making the seats come up, and that's just embarrassing. But the thing was, like, Jenny has good people skills and she wanted to kind of cut the tension a little bit.

OK. So she's making jokes? Well, she tried. OK. You know, let's not be too judgy about that. But she squeezes back into this tiny back seat and she's like oh good thing i'm thin and you know they didn't really find that cute but you know she's kind of trying to you know stay calm whatever once all three of them were in the car one of the men handed jenny one of her own pillowcases

so yeah clearly they'd been upstairs at some point They told her to put the pillowcase over her head and lay down in the back seat. So she did. And they drove off. And they drove and they drove. The men didn't talk much. Ginny heard rustling papers, which she assumed was a map. She smelled cigarette smoke. She tried to keep track of what turns they made and, you know, okay, so if they made it right here, we must be here,

you know, that kind of thing, and listen to any sign for where they could be. She was pretty sure she knew where she was for a while, but eventually, I mean, she got too turned around, too confused. She had no idea where she was. Meanwhile, back at the house, the two cleaning ladies, Bernice and Vernetta, were able to wiggle free from the tape and they went and got help. Bobby was at the office eating lunch when he got an emergency phone call from Jenny's sister, Charlotte. Charlotte told Bobby that two gunmen had taken Jenny. Charlotte had already called the local police,

so as soon as they hung up, Bobby, get this, called the FBI. Oh, just straight to the FBI, huh? Went straight there, Brandy. What about the mayor? The mayor was offended. I bet. But in the end, I think he understood. Okay.

So after that phone call, Bobby rushed home. It didn't take Bobby very long to spot the envelope that the gunman had left in his living room. He opened it. Is that how you say it? Are you that fancy? Envelope. You say envelope? Envelope. You say envelope? Envelope.

I say envelope. I think I switch it up. Oh, okay. Yeah. All right. Sometimes I feel fancy and sometimes I don't. It was a typed letter and it was in all caps, of course. Yeah.

And it was very no-nonsense. Here's what it said. Okay, so this was the other reason I had to read the book. All these other sources, they don't print the full ransom letters. I want to read it. I know. Right? Yeah.

Okay, here's what it said. The ransom is $1 million. The entire amount will be in used, unmarked $20 bills. The money will be prepared in four separately wrapped packages of $250,000 each. The four packages will be delivered in one large canvas or duck bag, brown or olive in color, with drawstring top. The fuck's a duck bag? I don't know. I assume that was some military term.

I have no idea. And the world may never know. That's right. Unless we Google, which we don't have time for. We absolutely have time for. I'm looking it up right now. What do you think we're doing, two cases on this episode? Not anymore.

Not anymore. A duck bag? Like, nothing just comes up. Okay, it looks like it's this kind of bag. It does seem military kind of in design. It's like this tote bag with a zip top and, like, strappies. I don't know. I don't know. All don't know. I don't know.

All right. That was worth it. It was not. No electronic tracking or signal devices will be in this bag or the packages of money. Before the prisoner is safely returned to you, the money will be examined for obvious markings. is safely returned to you, the money will be examined for obvious markings. Tests will be made for unusually high measures of radioactivity and conductivity, and the money will be subjected to examination with infrared and ultraviolet light. If these or other detectable methods of

marking are found on any portion of the money, it will not be considered acceptable. The money will be delivered tomorrow evening. The amount of money is established and will not be negotiated. So don't even try it, bitch. They didn't say that last part. The time of delivery has been established and will not be extended for any reason. The person making the delivery must be closely associated with the company of P, J, and H. That's the... Yeah, we got it. You got it? Okay.

Yeah, Piper, Joffrey, and... Hopwood, skipping a jump, I don't know. Before delivery... Oh, Jaffey, not Joffrey. It's Jaffey. Before delivery is accepted, this person will be examined for authenticity. Oh, the person will be? Mm-hmm.

What, does it make sure it's not a robot? I'm just reading you the letter, ma'am. If I received this ransom, I'm just saying, if I received this ransom note, I would have so many questions. What's a duck bag? What do you mean by check for authenticity? It's a canvas or duck bag, so you just get the canvas one. Alright? Don't overthink it.

They're saying this person must be closely associated with the company. Okay. So if they're examined for authenticity I don't know.

Tell me about the company. Okay. Only the most intimate knowledge of PJ and H business will enable him to satisfy this examination. Oh, if I just read one more sentence. Okay.

The person making the delivery will use an automobile registered to his home address. Automobile. The money will be carried in the trunk of the car. The automobile fuel tank must be previously filled before leaving. The person making the delivery will carry a minimum of $200 on his person. He will carry an assortment of change in his pocket, including at least five dimes. Why are they opening up a lemonade stand? He will be prepared to leave from the prisoner's home to make the delivery as soon as instructions are received at approximately 9.30 p.m. When instructions are received at this time, departure will be immediate.

Law enforcement radio frequencies will be monitored while the delivery is in progress and any unusual activity will be noted. If this occurs, the delivery will not be accepted. If the delivery is not accomplished as planned, no further contact will be made. If all instructions are carefully followed, the safety of the person making the delivery is assured. When the money has been received in accordance to instruction, the prisoner will be safely released, and the release will occur at 6 a.m. Ransom note adjourned. That is a long ass ransom note with a lot of instructions. Remind me again, what is the dollar amount they are asking for?

One million. In $20 bills? Ridiculous. Anything else stand out to you about the letter? I mean, it seems way too specific, but no. What are you... What do you mean way too specific? I'm just...

What is with the extra money in the pockets and the change and making sure the vehicle is gassed up prior to. They don't want anything to go wrong. Okay. Well, obviously, they have intimate knowledge of PJH as well, if they're going to be able to authenticate this person who is delivering the money. So it seems like an inside job. There you go. Yeah.

Yeah. That's what investigators are thinking. Yes, absolutely. So a million dollar ransom was the most that any kidnapper had ever asked for in the FBI's history. Worth noting, technically, the FBI didn't have jurisdiction-ish yet. There was no evidence that this was a federal crime, but a kidnapping like this was a very big deal. And it's a huge ransom. Yes, exactly. So the FBI stepped in. Also worth noting, the FBI needed a win. Okay. Why? What had recently happened? Their beloved J. Edgar Hoover had just died like a couple months earlier. And the organization had devoted many of its recent years to targeting and monitoring and harassing civil rights leaders.

Great. Yeah. It's awesome. Did you know that under J. Edgar Hoover's direction, the FBI blackmailed Martin Luther King Jr. and told him to die by suicide. I did know that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I actually just recently learned that. Yeah. Yeah. So in the early 70s, people were kind of like, do we really need an FBI? Right. And the FBI was like, yeah, you do. Definitely do.

Shut up. We're going to prove it to you with this case right here. So they started investigating this case, and, you know, it was immediately weird. First off, why did these kidnappers target the Pipers when they could have gone after the fucking Pillsbury's? Judging by the ransom note, as Brandy already pointed out, well, you didn't get this part, so I guess you're stupid. That's rude. Well, you didn't get this part, so I guess you're stupid. That's rude.

No, they thought that Bobby had been the intended target of the kidnapping because in the ransom note it just referred to prisoner. It didn't mention anyone by name. And, you know. Yeah. All right. They'd expected a businessman to be home on a Thursday afternoon. And that indicated. Why wouldn't the businessman be at work on a Thursday afternoon?

Right. You would expect that normally, but they'd come on a Thursday afternoon, and they'd asked where he was, and she said he was at work, and they were upset. They'd gotten bad information. Oh, okay. So that indicated some familiarity with Bobby's schedule. Yeah. Because Bobby did have a habit of leaving work early on Thursdays. Yeah.

He sometimes had to leave for meetings in New York. More often than not, he left to go study theology. Yeah. So the people behind this kidnapping were familiar enough with Bobby's schedule to know that he left work on Thursdays, but not familiar enough to know that he didn't go home. Yeah. And they wanted the person who dropped off the money to have intimate knowledge of Piper, Jaffrey, and Hopwood.

We weren't too far off with that name. It seemed reasonable to assume that these kidnappers were somehow affiliated with or at the very least familiar with the business. So the investigators got to work. The ransom letter was somewhat revealing, but they really wanted something solid. But they didn't have much. The kidnappers had been very careful. They hadn't left fingerprints or hairs and they'd concealed their identities.

Yeah, using those felt toppers. That's right, felt toppers. Luckily, one of the cleaning ladies had gotten a glimpse of their car, so she was able to tell the investigators that the kidnappers had been driving a green car. That was really all she could say, though. The car was green, she's pretty sure. Miss Lippy's car is green. Who? What? Is this a

children's program? It's from Billy Madison. Okay, great. Which is a film. Starring Adam Sandler. Starring the one and Starring Adam Sandler. Starring the one, the only, Adam Sandler. So, the investigation is starting up, and meanwhile, Ginny was still in the backseat of that car, still handcuffed, still lying down with a pillowcase over her head. And then one of the men told Ginny to sit up. They wanted her to make a recording that they could play for her husband.

They told her what they wanted her to say, and once she had memorized it, one of them lifted the pillowcase just a little and put a microphone underneath it. I said that really weird, didn't I? No. They fed a microphone to her. That's what you described. Yeah, all right. In a microphone to her. Yeah. That's what you described. Yeah, all right. In a totally normal way.

So, you know, they did that, and Jenny recited the script. She had no plans to disobey these guys. Yeah. She wanted to be as agreeable as possible in the hopes of making it out alive. At one point, she even thought to herself, you know, this is a good thing. This is happening to me and not to Bobby because Bobby probably would have mouthed off and gotten himself killed by this point. At some point after a lot of driving, the car stopped. The men had Jenny get out and start

walking. But she still had the pillowcase over her head. She was still handcuffed, and she was wearing flip-flops. What? Like that's weird? What? I love flip-flops. I wear flip-flops every day. Okay, but, you know, it's not... If she'd known she was going to be kidnapped, she would not...

She would put on her hiking boots? Yes. Okay. I see what you're saying. Yeah. It's not an attack she'd known she was going to be kidnapped, she would not. Hiking boots. Yes. OK. I see what you're saying. Yeah. It's not an attack on flip flops. I didn't know you would take it so personally. As a footwear in general.

Yeah. No. OK. No, not at all. I'll fight for my flippies. Clearly. Clearly. Clearly.

Even though Jenny had no idea where they were, it was pretty obvious that they were in the woods somewhere. So she stumbled over the terrain and they told her to keep it moving. She's like, I'm in flip flops. And they were like, what the fuck's wrong with flip flops? And it turned into a whole thing. At one point, they unhandcuffed her and gave her a pair of pants to put over her cotton ones. And, you know, thank God for that because it had gotten really cold. They also gave her a sweatshirt to put on over her blazer.

Are they hiking a mountain? I don't know. That's what it sounds like. Okay. May I tell you about the sweatshirt? Yeah, what is it? It was a fleece number, dark blue, had gray stripes. It was a size extra large, and it had a St. Olaf College logo on the left breast.

Really? Mm-hmm. Like Rose Nyland, St. Olaf? Mm-hmm. Okay. Once Jenny had the sweatshirt and pants on, they put the handcuffs back on her and had her sit down by a tree, and they took the pillowcase off. They warned her not to try anything funny. And so she put her juggling balls back in her pocket.

She was like, oh, okay. I can read a room. I sure can. They put a blindfold on her, but it was like a really stupid blindfold. See-through? No. This blindfold sounds so stupid. I don't know whose idea this was.

It was made of cotton balls and tape. What? What? It was made of cotton balls and tape. What? So, I mean, yeah. So, you know, they put it on and Ginny's just kind of like, all right, I'm not going to try anything. All right, go ahead and put your cotton balls on me.

I don't know. The sort of funny thing was that for as different as Ginny and Bobby were, they both took kind of the same approach to dealing with these kidnappers. They took them very seriously. They complied with everything. So the FBI had big ideas on how they wanted to handle this kidnapping. And Bobby was like, OK, sure. Fly some helicopters. Sure. Stop every green car. Sure. Put some helicopters. Sure.

Stop every green car. Sure. Put out a six state bulletin. Do what you want to do. But I'm doing what the kidnappers tell me to do. Yeah. He said, I'm going to follow these instructions perfectly. He actually thought that it was kind of more chilling that the ransom letter didn't have a threat in it. I hadn't even thought of it that way.

But I mean, it does kind of. Yeah. I mean, it makes you feel like you're dealing with people who mean business. Yeah, absolutely. Bobby reached out to his buddy who just happened to be the president at the First National Bank and told him what was going on. He got money from family and he, you know, he did what he had to do to get the million dollars. Hours passed by. Bobby and Jenny's

house was filled with people, investigators, but also family members. One family member said that after a while, there was so much nervous energy and nothing for anyone to do. So they just started cleaning. She said that Jenny's floors had never been cleaner. Oh, yeah. I thought that was so relatable. Yes, absolutely. Because it was like, you know, the media starts to descend. It becomes this big thing. You've got all these, you know, sandwiches and covered dishes and you're just freaking

out. So I don't know. Yeah. Hand me the Clorox wipes. Used a lot of those at our house this week. I should hope so. The family couldn't believe how this had happened. For one thing, one of Jenny's and Bobby's sons and his wife and kids had been living at their house temporarily while their own house was being built.

So it was just kind of lucky that none of them were around when this kidnapping took place. Is it lucky? I don't know. You tell me. That seems sus. Also, their family was a little miffed that their dog, a golden retriever, who I'm sure meant well, hadn't done shit when the kidnappers showed up. Well, what's he supposed to do? Bark or snarl or growl. I'm not mad at the dog either, but other people were.

Hours passed. At some point, one of the kidnappers left, but the other one stayed behind with Jenny. The blindfold had fallen off, as tape and cotton balls will do. Yeah. So the kidnapper was just like, okay, don't look at me. Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Wasn't there a Christina Aguilera song that started off like that?

Oh, yeah. I'm beautiful. Anyhow, she tried to kind of take in her surroundings. She was in the woods, but she could still hear cars. So she wasn't too far away from a road. But she was cold, very cold, and she was hungry. And she knew her captor had to be cold and hungry, too. He was shivering.

He hadn't eaten anything either. And there was nothing for them to do, so Jenny got him talking. The guy admitted that they had meant to kidnap Bobby. This whole thing had been arranged by some guy who owned a bar in Minneapolis. guy who owned a bar in Minneapolis. He talked about having arthritis in his knees and how the rain really bothered him and how he owed the bar owner and he owed and how he owned the. Oh, my God. You know what I was wondering?

I was wondering if he owed the bar owner anything. I was wondering if you'd like to kiss my ass. I was wondering if you'd like to kiss my ass as a matter of fact he did he owed the bar owner $12,000 oh why I don't know it's none of your business

just run up a tab that's quite a hefty tab there's no way that was a hefty ass tab there's no way I mean there had to have been jab. There's no way. I mean, there had to have been some, I don't know, something. He host a party there? No, it has to be like illegal bedding or something, right? What are you going to drink, like 12 million vodka sodas in 1972? But don't worry.

By pulling off this kidnapping, that debt would be cleared. He said he worked in construction and had to be back at work on Monday. He said he liked to hunt. Deer hunt, mostly. And he liked to watch basketball on TV. Seems. His friends call him Alabama, which is kind of funny because he never lived in Alabama. Why do they call him Alabama, which is kind of funny because he never lived in Alabama. Why do they call him Alabama?

I don't know. You know, here's the thing about being held captive by a scary dude. You just listen. Oh, okay. You're not like, well, that's stupid. Why do they call you that? Yeah. Also, have you ever made a blindfold before?

Try harder next time. Have you ever made a blindfold before? Try harder next time. He mentioned a state hospital, which Ginny knew was a hospital for mentally ill patients. He mentioned a Minnesota prison, which Ginny knew was a prison for prisoners. Very sorry. very sorry she knew that there was a chance he was lying to her about his life but that didn't matter she wanted to kind of build a rapport with the guy occasionally he would take her handcuffs and using a chain and pad, he'd chain her to a tree and then walk away for a little while.

What was he doing? She had no idea. How long was a little while? Well, first of all, she wasn't wearing a watch. She was pissed about that, that she hadn't been wearing a watch. So she didn't know. She had no idea how much time had passed. After a while, she suspected that maybe he had food stashed somewhere.

She did ask him at one point. He said he was just looking around. That's what I'd say, too. Also, maybe he was just going to go pee or poop or something. Yeah, that's true. And he was just not wanting to have such an uncouth discussion. It wouldn't be very couth of him. That's right, because he's the couthiest. Much like you. Yeah. At one point he came back

and he gave her some bread and a few Kraft singles. They don't mention the brand, but isn't there only one pasteurized cheese in the cellophane wrapping? No, ma'am. Yes, there is. It's wrong.

No, it's Kraft or it's off-brand, right? No, Borden makes. Borden does make. Yeah. Okay. They're not good. Wow. Kraft Singles kicks Borden's ass.

Borden was just about to sponsor this podcast. They were not. They've never been more authentic. Well, I've learned a lot about cheese today. So he brought her that and one can of 7-Up. He shared his cigarettes with her. He smoked Kools. It wasn't Jenny's brand, but she didn't give a shit.

She loved smoking and she's like, give me a cigarette. The man reassured her many times that he had no intention of hurting her. In fact, he said he was staying with her because he didn't think it was right to leave a woman all alone chained to a tree. What a gentleman. Yeah. It is right to show up at her home with a gun in each hand. That's fine. But wouldn't Dreamer leave you out here?

He said that as long as her husband paid the ransom, she'd be back home soon. And Jenny was like, well, you know what? I'm sure he will. He'll pay the ransom. At one point, Jenny did accidentally look at the kidnapper. It was just a glimpse, but he was still pretty well covered.

She saw enough to know that he was a white guy. He was kind of a stocky build. He had dark hair and kind of unusual eyes. What does that mean? So she noticed a gray ring around his cornea. Hmm. Ginny was pretty sure the man caught her looking at him, but he didn't mention it. And, you know, she wasn't going to bring it up.

So meanwhile, back at the Piper residence, the FBI was getting a little upset about Bobby's take charge attitude. They wanted to be the ones to drop the money. At the very least, they wanted to be with the ones to drop the money. At the very least, they wanted to be with the person who dropped the money. But Bobby was adamant he would be the one to drop the money and he would do it alone. He didn't want to put anyone else at risk. He did let the agents put a radio transmitter in his back seat and a video camera behind the car's grill is what the book said but this is like the 70s yeah cameras are huge would they have to scoop out vital components of the car's engine for that who knows who knows okay so they did that to kind of monitor him but

he wouldn't allow anyone to be in the car with him. He also allowed the FBI to get the serial numbers for all the ransom bills, but nothing else. He wanted to do what the kidnappers said. What's your face about? I don't know. You've got, things are, things are thinking in that brain of yours. I mean, from the one hand, this looks like I'm following everything to the T so that I can get my wife back safe. Some might even say to a T. What did I say? To the T? Okay.

Taking it to the T. On the other hand, it could look like I want as little, as few people involved so that I can get this deal done with my inside guys. Okay. Yeah, maybe it does look like that. Or maybe you're victim shaming. Shame on you. The kidnappers had told him not to use tracking devices, and since he was on their same team, he was like, yeah, that's fine. I won't do it.

Is that a joke? That was a joke. That was a joke. Or was it? I don't know. Let's listen to the rest of the story and find out. Okay, so sure enough, just like the ransom note had said, Bobby got a phone call at about 930 at night. Here's how that phone call went.

Bobby. Hello? Hello? Jenny. Bobby. Hello? Hello? Ginny. Bobby? Bobby. Yeah? Hi? Ginny. They told me they're very nice and they're taking good care of me and I do hope you'll do everything you can to follow their instructions. Bobby, can you hear what I say or is this a recording? Jenny, tomorrow. Bobby, can you hear what I say? Jenny, tomorrow to drive to turn into 12, the closest place from our house. Go east on number 12 to Louisiana Avenue. Turn left on Louisiana Avenue and go to the end, and you will see a sign that says Louisiana and Laurel. L-A-U-R-E-L. At the base of that signpost will be something for you to pick up. Bobby, is this a recording or are you talking to me? Jenny, you can get yourself organized. I'm

sorry about tonight and everything, and be sure you explain to the kids. Tell them to stop. Don't panic because everything, it's going to be all right, okay? Bobby. Yeah, but are you talking here or is this a recording? Virginia? Jenny? Jenny. Bobby, once again, the directions. Tomorrow, I don't know whether it's morning or afternoon, but you're to go to number 12 until you reach Louisiana Avenue. Then go left on Louisiana Avenue and go to the end. There you will see a sign that says Louisiana and Laurel. L-A-U-R-E-L. At the base of the sign, you will find a package that you are to pick up.

Bobby. Hello? That's a recording. Hello? He's so busy trying to figure out if this is a recording or not. Is he missing the instructions? I'm so concerned. They were taping it.

Okay, okay, all right. But it was a recording. Yeah. Is this what she recorded when they... Yes. When she lifted the pillowcase slightly? We were all confused. We had no idea what was happening.

pillowcase we were all confused we had no idea what was happening the thing that sucked was that the call hadn't gone on long enough to be traced but that was okay bobby was gonna do this yeah the family was distraught jenny was gone and now bobby was gonna go after her i mean there was a chance that neither one of them would survive. Yeah. But Bobby got in his car with the very heavy ransom money, which, as you pointed out, a million dollars and 20s is nuts. Yes, that's insane. It was like 110 pounds. Yeah.

He drove to the spot that Jenny identified in the recording. And when he arrived there, he found a note. It read, The device you have found with this message is a radio transmitter that is in continuous operation. From this time until delivery is completed, you will be monitored constantly for sound. Do not speak. Oh, shit. You will extend the antenna and place the transmitter on the dash of your car with the microphone up.

I would fail this. It'd freak you out, right? Yeah. Me too. I couldn't do it. Drive immediately to the shopping center at Highway 12 and Turner Crossroads. This is across the highway from the Ambassador Motel. Enter the small parking lot behind Bridgements. Park well in the back where you are not visible from the highway from the Ambassador Motel. Enter the small parking lot behind Bridgements. Park well in the back where you are not visible from the highway.

Park and turn off your lights. Leave your car immediately, taking the keys and transmitter with you. Remove no other objects or items from your car. Locate a car in this lot that is marked by two strips of tape on the rear window. The trunk and ignition keys for this car will be found in their respective locks. Transfer the money to the trunk of this car immediately. Leave your car at this location and drive to the parking lot of the ambassador where you will stop and read the further instructions you will find in the glove box.

You will find a flashlight in the glove box for reading. You will position the radio transmitter Holy shit. Yep. Bobby did exactly as he was instructed. He drove. He switched the cars. He switched into a green Monte Carlo. Is it Monte Carlo or Monte Carlo? Monte Carlo is how most people say it.

But very special, ladies. Like me. He arrived at the Ambassador Motel. He opened the glove box and read the next letter. Would you like to hear it? Yeah. Here we go. Go east on 12, about one and a half miles, to Glenwood Parkway.

The exit occurs on the right-hand side just after you go under a bridge. Do not miss this exit. Exit onto Glenwood Parkway and follow it north to the Golden Valley Road. The distance from 12 is about three and three-tenths miles. Turn right onto the Golden Valley Road and follow it to the end. Then make a close left and right onto Broadway. Go right on Broadway about seven-tenths of a mile to 4th Street. Turn right onto 4th Street and prepare to stop. Stop opposite the second power pole from the corner just beyond the streamline bar. Find further instructions at the base of this pole.

Holy shit. Travel time has been carefully checked and you must move prudently but quickly. I'm so fucking lost. Oh my gosh, yes. I'd be a mess. This sounds like a birthday party scavenger hunt. Yeah. I'm telling you, if this happened to Norm, and I was the one in charge of getting from

place, he'd be dead. He would. I would fail this. Don't miss the exit. Holy shit. I'm guaranteed to miss it. I'm missing it now. Oh, and three-tenths of a mile.

I don't have any fucking clue how far that is. In a car? Are you kidding me? No. Oh, my gosh. But, I mean, Bobby did great. He drove to the next place, and there were more notes. At one point, he got a note that, after specifying how to get to this specific bar read,

enter the sportsman bar through the back door. Remove keys from the car. Bring both envelopes with directions just received into the bar with you. Go immediately to the public phones and dial the number 529-9891. This is a public phone and your call should not be answered. If you receive a reply, hang up without speaking and redial a moment later. Allow the number to ring five times and hang up. Immediately enter the men's toilet and when unobserved, place the auto trunk key on the top of the casing above the door near the center. While still in the toilet, read the instructions in the second envelope. Oh my gosh.

Mm-hmm. This is wild. Yeah. Bobby went into the bar. He made the phone call. He went into the bathroom. He did everything that was asked of him. And then he read the second note. Here's what it said. After reading, return to the phones and repeat your previous phone call. Allow the number to ring five times. This call is to signal your departure and you will then leave immediately. You will turn right onto Plymouth Avenue and follow Plymouth to Lindale. You will turn left onto Lindale. You will go south on

Lindale and you will not leave Lindale. You will go to the Holiday Store at 8341 Lindale. Enter the parking lot and park as close as possible to the store. Your entrance will be observed here. You park as close as possible to the store. Your entrance will be observed here. You will lock the car and enter the store. Phone a cab from the public phones and return home. If all instructions have been followed to this point, the pickup will be made right away. Oh my gosh. Well, keep going. Mm-hmm. Well, keep going.

What happens next? Okay, so once again, he follows the instructions. With a minor change. What happened? What did he do? Why did he change? Okay, so he didn't call a cab. He called a friend.

And they did... What the fuck are you doing, Bobby? Well, I mean, I think he figured he'd done everything, right? So who cares? So why are we straight now? Boy. Okay. So he calls his friend.

Friend comes to pick him up. But Bobby was worried that someone who wasn't the kidnappers would come and take the money out of the car. So they drove back to where he'd abandoned the car. And pretty quickly, a man approached them. The guy said he was with the FBI and that he and other agents were watching the car. He asked Bobby to leave. So he did.

Was he really with the FBI? I don't know. Or was he one of the kidnappers? I don't know. Well, you do know. Keep going. FBI agents apparently watched the car all night, but the only people they ever saw go near it were Bobby and his friend. Eventually, they decided, okay, well, we have to approach the vehicle now. They opened it up, and the money was gone. Holy shit! When did they get it? I don't know. But here's the thing.

Like, the kidnappers had him running all over the place. And I think that probably would have hurt the FBI's ability to keep track of him. And like, you know, they'd done the thing with the video camera in the car, but like the kidnappers had him abandon that first car like immediately. So that was totally useless. Yeah. So maybe the kidnappers were just really fast. Who knows? Oh, my gosh. The bigger thing that was that there was no sign of Jenny. The FBI agents were certain she was dead. Their main concern at that point was catching the kidnappers because they just figured there's no way they haven't killed her. But Jenny was alive. Oh, my gosh. She was still in the woods.

She had sandwiches in the woods. Yeah. With felt topper guy. Hopefully not Borden. Yeah, I hope it's Kraft. I always thought Borden was the fancier brand. No? I think it is in general.

Yeah. Oh, but sometimes fancy isn't always better. Correct. Not in my book anyway. I like a Kraft single over a Borden single. There, I said it. Wow. Really not getting that sponsorship now.

You're really not afraid to say the unpopular things on this episode. First, we announce that we're just doing one case. Then you say you like craft overboarding. Interesting. So Jenny was out in the woods. At one point, the kidnapper left. He'd been gone for who knows, maybe two hours when this other guy showed up. He looked at her and said, where's Tom? I don't think we're supposed to use names, man. Is that what Jenny said? Yeah. Jenny was like, wow, huge mistake.

You think I'm going to forget that name? You are wrong. And Jenny said, I don't know. They talked for a moment and he told her, you know, you're going to be rescued. And then he walked away. And then as Jenny sat there all alone, padlocked to a tree, she heard someone, perhaps the man she'd just spoken with, call out, so long, Grandma. What does that mean? Exactly.

She was like, because, you know, he calls out, so long, Grandma. And then there's nothing. So she's like, is he making fun of me? Is he like making fun of me? Is he, is that like a term of endearment? Like, I don't know what the fuck to make of that. Holy shit. So she's sitting there, shivering, hungry, scared.

And at this point, she's certain she's going to die. She just figured, no one's coming for me. And then something really weird happened. She felt her mother's presence. Her mother was there with her. Her mother who had died a year earlier. Oh, my gosh. That presence brought Ginny comfort.

And maybe it also kind of lit a fire under her because she thought, I have to do something. She looked around and noticed that the tree she was chained to was about five inches in diameter, which is, I mean, I still think that's a pretty big tree, but it's not the biggest. Yeah. Yeah. On the tree scale, it's on the small side. So she decided, you know, okay. She can use the chain to saw through it? No.

Oh, okay. She had another idea. All right. Is she going to climb it? No. Or is she going to dig under it? Her plan. Run at it as fast as she can.

She had a lot of ideas. Because there's no bad ideas in brainstorming. It was a brainstorming time, so it's just like, let's just throw everything at it. No, her plan was to try to dig up the tree's roots. Oh, yeah. That's one way to do it. Not the way Brandy would do it. I'll tell you that right now.

So. I like that chain idea. Yeah, I mean. I mean, it would take him for fucking ever, I think. So she's probably. I think her route is the fastest. Although none of this is going to be fast. Also, I'm guessing she didn't bring like a shovel or anything with her.

She had a chainsaw in her pocket. And in retrospect, she should have used it. But you know how sometimes when you're really hungry, you're just surviving on boredom singles. You're not thinking straight. That's right. Maybe if she'd had craft. Who knows? So all she had were her bare hands, no shovels.

Yeah. And she just began digging. Oh, my gosh. Digging and digging and digging. The kidnapping of Jenny Piper was all over the news. Everybody knew about this. So that next morning, this guy, a reverend, just this random guy, he didn't know the Pipers at all, but he, of course, knew that Jenny Piper had been kidnapped. And out of the blue, he got a phone call.

It was from a guy who told him that this wasn't a hoax. He mentioned that a couple times, actually. This is not a hoax. Okay. And then proceeded to give him instructions on where to find Ginny Piper. What? She was chained to a tree in Jay Cook State Park. How far away is that?

It's a good ways. Okay. that tells me nothing yeah hang on okay the caller explained that he'd called the reverend because he was sure the reverend wouldn't have a recording device hooked up to his phone and then the caller got like a little paranoid and was like you don't do you and the reverend's like no like a normal guy so you know he alerts the fbi the fbi does seem to have taken their time getting to the spot where jenny was chained to a tree yeah was she still there when they got there? Yeah. Was she alive? Yes.

They found her chained to a tree, her body, but especially her fingers just covered in dirt. Oh, my gosh. She was exhausted and traumatized, but she was so relieved to see them. By that point, she'd been held captive for about 48 hours. Wow. Agents flew Ginny home and Bobby met them at the tarmac. And Ginny was still filthy and in shock. And she and Bobby hugged.

And then Bobby turned to the FBI agents and said, Hey, I'd buy you all a cup of coffee, but I'm a little short on cash right now. Really? I mean, I think that you all a cup of coffee, but I'm a little short on cash right now. Really? I mean, I think that's a pretty funny one. To me, it sounds a little too perfect. Like maybe it's a story you make up after the fact. But that's... Bobby took her home, but their house was full of people.

It was surrounded by reporters. And she had to duck down in the back seat as they approached the house. And she said, well, this reminds me of being kidnapped. Yeah. They snuck her into the house and Ginny's sisters bathed her and got her into clean clothes. Okay, this part reminded me of you. So Ginny was always very modest. She would have, like, never. The idea of her sisters bathing her. you. So Ginny was always very modest. She would have,

like, never. The idea of her sisters bathing her. Yeah. I was like, oh, heavens. I know. I know. And that's how she would have been normally. Yeah. But. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She'd been through a lot. Horrible ordeal. Yeah. It's funny you should say that. This is 1972. So the big thing was, well, she wasn't physically harmed. Okay. Yeah. Mental trauma hadn't been invented yet. That was not invented yet, yes. So don't even worry about it. It's not a thing.

It's not a thing. So, okay, she's been through this horrible thing. I cannot even imagine. But again, and we've covered cases about that like this. There was another one I think we covered on Patreon. A woman in the 70s who was kidnapped but not physically harmed. And it was like people thought that was no big deal. It was the Chowchilla bus kidnapping.

It's all those kids. They were all. I was thinking of another one, actually. Oh, yes. I mean, there was a... Yes. All those kids, they were like, well, they're fine. Yeah.

They weren't harmed at all. Thank goodness they weren't harmed. Yeah. Now, don't go to therapy. That's for crazies. You're thinking of Barbara Mackey, right? The woman that was buried alive. Yeah.

How much do you remember like this? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, buried alive. Yeah. But don't worry. He didn't break her leg. Yeah. Yeah, buried alive. Yeah. But don't worry. He didn't break her leg. Yeah, so that's, she's fine.

Somehow, on July 30th, Jenny went out and spoke to the press about everything she'd been through. Wow. Yeah, I mean, she, she did a great job. It's kind of horrible. Like, you wonder, was that... Did she want to do that? Was that something they felt like they had to do to get people to leave them alone? I don't know. Wow.

But, you know, now the expectation was that the FBI would find the kidnappers. Yeah. And they tried. They really did. They interviewed more than a thousand people, Brandi. What? What? They really tried.

Keep going. What's your face? Keep going. They had a ton of leads. Yeah. Just no ton of leads. Yeah. Just no shortage of leads. None of them really went anywhere. Weeks passed.

Then months. Then years. Did the money start turning up? Well, hang on. All right. Hang on. So hold on. Alright. Hang on! So hold on

for one more day. I love that you joined in. I could tell you didn't want to. I could tell. You were like, get... You're gonna sing Wilson Phillips in front of me. I'm gonna join in. I know, but you didn't want to because you're like, keep going with the story. Yes. Also, if you could take less drinks so you could talk more, that'd be great.

I am so sorry. I'm just kidding. The problem is I don't have a straw. Oh, yeah. That's what's really slowing me down today. Yeah. So if you could cut me some slack. Investigators interviewed and re-interviewed and re-interviewed Jenny.

There were these fucked up rumors that Jenny and Bobby had been in on the kidnapping. Those fucked up rumors were started by Brandy in the year 2023. Boy, is she an asshole. Yeah. It was all so traumatizing. The experience changed her. Well, of course. But it's such an interesting time period because, and the book did a good job of mentioning this, that like this was either a generation of men who were either in that boat where they went to war and saw terrible things and just never talked about it.

Or they'd been raised by guys who'd done that. Oh, yeah. And so it was like, we don't talk about our trauma at all. Yeah. So Ginny obviously had a lot to deal with. And I don't know what kind of help, if any, she got. obviously had a lot to deal with and I don't know what kind of help, if any, she got.

But, you know, they had that life where the kids would drop by, the grandkids would swing by, and that had to stop. She was like Yeah, she didn't have people dropping in. Absolutely. She was like, if anybody wants to come by, that's fine, but you have to call first. Yeah.

Bobby gave Jenny a panic button, which she kept on her at all times. They exchanged their golden retriever for an angry German shepherd. That's not how that works, right? That is not at all how that works. You don't trade in dogs. Well, they did. This seems like a rude punishment to the golden retriever. I agree.

Holy shit. So this German shepherd, they named him Happy, even though he wasn't happy. That's funny. In fact, he was so happy that they ended up getting rid of him, too. Okay. I don't approve of any of this. I don't either. too. Okay. I don't approve of any of this. I don't either. Ginny had always smoked and she'd always enjoyed a good martini, but alcoholism ran in her family and after the kidnapping, she smoked more

and she drank a lot more. Yeah. Ginny kept saying she'd feel a lot better when the case was solved. Yeah. But it needed to be solved quickly. The statute of limitations on kidnapping in Minnesota was three years. You're fucking kidding me. Nope. Isn't that ridiculous? Okay, but they flew her home.

How far away was she? Hang on. Because if they cross state lines, that makes it a federal crime. What's the federal statute of limitations? Hey, how about you calm down a second? Listen, Kristen, I've done a lot of kidnappings on this podcast. Three years came and went. Now, Brandi, I'm sure you haven't thought of this, but if anything was going to happen at this point, it had to happen at the federal level. Oh, what? tell us more.

Because at that level, the statute of limitations on kidnapping was five years. That's still not very fucking long. The statute of limitations is so fucking ridiculous to me. If we don't catch you in time, the crime doesn't count. Yeah, who cares? So the FBI kept working on this case, even though there wasn't really any proof that the kidnappers had taken Jenny out of state. And they needed that proof in order for this to be a federal crime. And they needed that proof in order for this to be a federal crime.

The one thing they could cling to was that there were a couple different routes that the kidnappers could have taken to get to the state park where they tied Jenny up. And one of those routes would have very briefly gone through Wisconsin. We're talking like, and you've missed it. So I think we can all agree that the kidnappers took that route. And I don't want to hear it again. This was a tough case to crack. They had nothing. Well, not nothing.

They discovered that there was a guy who was going into banks exchanging $20 bills for smaller bills. Okay, that's something. Yeah. And they knew the serial numbers for the ransom money, but it's not like they had a system that was like, No, it doesn't flag them. Ransom money! Catch that dude! Yeah, that would be a cool system to have, though. Someone should get on that.

So instead, what they had was like any time they found out that some of those bills had been used, they would like go to the bank and go to the teller and be like, hey, can you describe the person who came in? You know, I mean, my God. You know, sometimes they could. Sometimes they couldn't. The times when they could describe the guy, it was this. Okay. White man. Mm-hmm. Middle-aged. Little stocky.

Wearing a hat. I mean. Done. We already knew all of that. Well, yeah, we already knew it, but. That's not helpful. Sure is. You have that thing around his eye?

Hey, just stop every white middle-aged stocky guy. That's not... Arrest them all, I say. That's not how that works. Lock them up. Make them prove that they didn't do it. Okay. So, this is so sad.

They drew sketches. Yeah. But, I mean, it just looks like every white dude. Every white dude, yeah. These were desperate times. They offered tipsters a $50,000 reward. And get this, I've never heard of this. You got the money when the kidnappers were arrested. You didn't even have to like, it's not like one of those things where you wait until they get convicted or any of that. It's just like, man, we get some cuffs on these dudes and 50K is in your pocket.

Yeah. Guaranteed. In 1974, there were two more kidnappings of wives of businesswomen. I'm sorry. Of wives of businessmen in the Minneapolis area. I was like, wow, this is really progressive up here in Minneapolis. Minneapolis is progressive. Yes. Damn.

So they're like, is this a hate crime? Or are we just focusing on the kidnapping aspect? And the FBI had to do some soul searching. They're like, is this a hate crime? Or are we just focusing on the kidnapping aspect? And the FBI had to do some soul searching. They're like, okay, we're racist. Are we also against LGBT? Got to figure it out. Brandy, what I'm trying to tell you is that there were copycats. Yeah.

That was a meow at the beginning? Yeah. What do you mean, was that a meow? Meow. That's when a cat's really upset or in heat. Yeah. All right. Or about to throw up.

Sorry I didn't mean to make you think about your weekend. The whole Pond family had it coming out both ends. Were you all just shouting, wow? Yeah, the whole time. You know how some pressure is mounting? Yeah. And then, magically, the FBI got a break in the case. What's, how, what's the break?

It's magic. How is it magic? If I tell you about the magic, then it's not magic anymore. Okay, check it out. Two guys were interviewed fairly early in the investigation. Kenneth Callahan and Donald Larson. Donald? Either one of them are named Tom?

Nope. Okay. Either of them go by Grandma. That is something I had not considered. The guy was talking to the other guy. And it was because he made the best oatmeal scotchies.

That's right. Donald was a truck driver in his mid-40s. He dropped out of school after the eighth grade, and he'd done some time for robbery. And, you know, he wasn't the smartest guy in the world, okay? But get a load of this, okay? One of his friends told the FBI that Donald was capable of pulling off this kidnapping. Okay.

Suck on that for a while. They couldn't do like a, okay, did they not know it was a Green Monte Carlo? They not know a Green Monte Carlo was involved in this whole thing? No, they did. Okay. So can't you like cross-reference owners of Green Monte Carlos and like past patients of this state hospital that the guy mentioned? All right. I'm not trying to question the FBI here.

All right. You'll be on a list in no time. No, it's funny. I didn't really find anything about the Monte Carlo. Why do I keep calling it a Monte Carlo? Well, I think you want it to be a Monte Cristo sandwich. You know, when we're talking about my area of expertise, it's really more sandwiches than cars. That's why I call my automobile the grilled cheese.

So ridiculous. No, so I didn't automobile the grilled cheese. So ridiculous. No, so I didn't really come across anything about the car. Okay. But it must not have turned up anything. All right, fine. Fine, fine, fine. All right, so this guy's capable of doing it. Wow, what a lead.

That's stupid. Kenneth was a carpenter. He'd also done Time for Burglary and Indecent Assault. He was fairly smart. What is Indecent Assault? Okay, well. What is that? Okay, in the book, the author described what to me sounded like child pornography, but it wasn't written that way.

It was written as Indecent Assault. I don't know, man. It was written as indecent assault. I don't know, man. It's not good. Okay. Okay. Strap in. You ready for this? Yeah.

Kenneth lived on Alabama Avenue. Oh, people call me Alabama, but I've never even lived in Alabama. But I do live on Alabama Avenue. Rock down to Alabama Avenue. Then you take it higher. The FBI really freaked him out by just sitting there in their little suits just saying that song to him. They didn't sing it. They said it. He and Donald met in prison.

Okay. Yeah. They mentioned prison. Somebody mentioned prison at one point. Yeah. So there you go. And if you want more evidence than that, I cannot help you. Well, that's not evidence.

Both men were eliminated as suspects pretty early on. They had alibis. Kenneth said he was fishing with some friends on the day of the kidnapping and spent that night with his family. Donald said he was at work that afternoon and he was at home with his wife that night. But, okay, they both had spent some money. In 1973, Donald bought an 80-acre farm with a house and a garage. I think that means like an outbuilding. Yeah, I know what it means.

Okay. And I want you to know about it. Okay. You need a place to park your camper? Donald's got you covered in his garage. In his garage. I bet you don't even have a garage. I do have a garage.

It's attached to the home, though. And I can't fit a camper in it. That'd be a real small camper. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How much did he spend on that? That's a rude question to ask. Okay.

What are you, my dad? Yeah. Yes. Also, he and his wife vacationed in Las Vegas and Palm Springs. Money, money, money. Were they not able to do those things prior to the kidnapping of Jenny?

I actually don't know, but I know that they went on a couple vacations. Okay. I don't think this sounds like real strong evidence. Kenneth bought and remodeled a duplex. Okay. Oh, and also, he was in the process of building a cabin in Wisconsin, and the cabin, get this, was nice.

Mm-hmm. So. I'm not convinced. You're not convinced it was nice? That is so fucking rude. No, I'm not convinced it's these guys.

Brandy, in 1975, the statute of limitations was a ticking. The FBI started looking at Kenneth and Donald and a few other guys again. Why? Unclear. Shut up.

What is clear is that by January of 1976, the FBI had a theory. Okay, Donald drove the car. While Kenneth stayed with Jenny in the woods, this other guy named Thomas Gray helped pick up the ransom. Okay, so the FBI decided they'd be willing to offer Thomas Gray immunity in exchange for his cooperation. Okay. What?

Why are you making that face at me? I'm skeptical. About Thomas? Are you endowting Thomas? About this whole version. Whole version. Agents had also been talking to Donald's wife, Ruth. And she apparently told them that she'd be willing to talk more about the case after she left Donald. Oh, okay. That's interesting.

Yes. That is something. After she left Donald. Oh, okay. That's interesting. Yes. That is something. But then in April of that year, Donald murdered her. He evidently found out that Ruth was having an affair with the neighbor.

So he shot and killed her, shot and killed the neighbor, killed their five-year-old son and two other children. It was horrible. Oh my gosh! Absolutely horrible. Donald went on trial, pled not guilty by reason of insanity, but he was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison. Holy shit! Yeah.

People who knew him were stunned by this. So that happened. Yeah. And the FBI was pretty sure that Donald and Kenneth had pulled off the Jenny Piper kidnapping. But they were really light on evidence. Yeah, really light. Like as in none. Well, hang on.

There was a fingerprint that had been lifted off a brown bag in the kidnapping car. But it didn't match either of them. Yeah, so that's no evidence. Well, eventually it did match. To who? Donald. Eventually how? Well, they tested it one time and it didn't work. They tested it one time and it didn't work they tested

it another time it didn't work tested a third time didn't work tested a fourth time it worked well that's just that's a lie no yeah you are rude how dare you lie what's just a fucking lie. What? We're going to make it match? Brandy, this is the motherfucking FBI. Yeah, the motherfucking FBI does shady shit, too. Mm-hmm. They sure do. They also found a six-inch hair that was microscopically similar to Kenneth's, which is funny because that was a thing back in the day, the microscopically similar thing. And it would make trees go, oh, wow.

We now know it's total bullshit. Also, Kenneth says that his hair was never that long. So that's another thing. Did they have Jenny look at these gentlemen? Oh, could you hang on like two seconds? Okay, sorry. look at these gentlemen? Oh, could you hang on like two seconds?

Okay, sorry. They brought the guys in for a lineup, Brandi. Such a good idea. But Jenny couldn't ID them. Yeah. She looked real close at their eyes

for that gray, circly thing. Brandi, can you... Sorry! You know, no one thought to do that. No. Randy, can you... Sorry. You know, no one thought to do that. No. No, no one thought about it. You know what? We should get in a time machine.

Get you back there to shout things to the agents. No, neither of them had that thing. Okay. What about Tom? Would you hang on? Oh, sorry. Jesus Christ. Is it just that you're so excited?

I am. This case is nuts. Coco nuts. Coconuts! Coconuts! She listened to their voices and said that Kenneth's voice sounded similar, or maybe did she use the word familiar to Alabama's voice. And so, on July 11, 1977, with just 16 days until the statute of limitations expired, a federal grand jury indicted Donald and Kenneth. You're making a stanky face. Yeah, I don't love it. Their trial kicked off in October of 1977.

For what it's worth, Jenny and Bobby absolutely believed that the FBI had caught the right guys. Yeah, because they had faith in the FBI. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Their sons were a little less than convinced. So Tad, who ended up working for the family business, he was pretty sure his parents were right. Do you think it's short for Thaddeus? I mean, that's better than Tadpole.

Sure, probably, right? Probably, yeah. Why are you hung up on that? better than tadpole. Sure, probably, right? Probably, yeah. Why are you hung up on this? I don't know. Harry and David, who went on to create a company. They were attorneys by this point. Oh, wow, okay. And they weren't so sure.

Harry thought flat out, these weren't the guys. Yeah. David kind of went back and forth. I'm kind of feeling Harry. The prosecution's case hinged on that fingerprint and hair sample. I think the defense's case was quite a bit stronger. Their argument was that basically the FBI was just desperate. I think the defense's case was quite a bit stronger. Yeah. Their argument was that basically the FBI was just desperate.

Yeah. They were only doing this because the statute of limitations was about to run out. This was a high profile case. They needed a win. Yep. They charged guys who they'd already cleared. Yep. And also, how do we even know that this is a federal crime?

We have no way of knowing which route the kidnappers took. Jenny testified, and she did a great job on the stand, but the defense made a big point about how Jenny had initially said that one of the kidnappers had a white ring around his cornea. It was now understood that the person likely had a condition called... You bitch! You knew I wasn't gonna... Anything medical! I'm like... Arcus senilis... senilis... Arcus senilis! Okay, sure, arcus senilis.

Which, of course, is when a bunch of lipid deposits appear, like a ring around the outside of the cornea. It doesn't go away, or at least it didn't in the 70s. So once you got it, you got it, buddy. All right. So on cross-examination, the defense got permission to have both men approach Jenny and have her look right in their eyes. And she did, and she had to admit that, yeah, they didn't have that ring around their corneas.

Where's Tom's eyes? Tom was not charged with anything. Okay. But I bet you if he had one of those rings, I mean, he'd be up there front and center. Bobby also testified for the prosecution, along with a bunch of FBI agents, forensics experts. The prosecution called some of Donald and Kenneth's buddies. But, you know, those guys were rough dudes, many of whom had been suspects in the kidnapping themselves. So, I mean, how much are we really going to buy all that?

Maybe a lot. Who knows? The prosecution also produced those sketches. Doesn't this white dude look like these white dudes? Yeah, did the sketches look like them? I mean, I'm telling you they look like any white dude. Okay, all right. My dad, your dad, his dad, her dad.

You got a white dad? Well, guess what? We'd like to talk to him about this kidnapping. The prosecution also produced the pack of cool cigarettes that had been found near where Jenny was held. And they made sure to point out that Kenneth enjoys cool cigarettes. Just for the record, kids, cigarettes,

not cool. Brandy, thank you. You're welcome. We have a platform here. That's right. A lot of young kids listen to this show and they're

always asking themselves, would it be cool if I smoked? And we bravely say, no. No. Take it from us, two really cool women. We know what's cool. Tell them what's cool, Brandy.

I'm pretty cool. I say a three-wick candle. Pretty cool. Oh, three-wick candle is cool. You know what else is cool? What? A three-wick candle in a fall scent right at the end of August. Oh. You know what is so upsetting?

I was like, we'll start this volley back and forth and it'll be funny. But instead, we're just agreeing with each other so hard that it's not a joke anymore. I've got to tell you something. Okay, so Norman went up to Michigan, as you know, to visit his grandma. He came back yesterday. And, you know, it's a long drive. And I was like, well, when he comes in, I'm going to make sure everything's really pleasant. And I got the idea.

I'm going to light the candle in the bathroom right by the door. Yeah, so he gets hit with the waft. And he walked in. He goes, it smells so good in here. Would you take a shit? Shut up! No, no, no. He goes, it smells so good in here.

And I was like, oh, really? It's just the house. Welcome home, sweet pea. Oh, gosh. Just me sitting here perfect. What did you miss me? It doesn't smell like a dump in here. Back to the case.

Okay. They also showed a note that Kenneth had written in 1960 in which he misspelled the word approaching, which is a word that the kidnapper also struggled to spell. Are we approaching a good case? It's pretty weak still to me. The defense... Defense. Defense-y coat.

Then they brought up the defense-y coat. And I'm like, what does this have to do with anything? What's written on the back of the Constitution. How'd they get a hold of that?

I don't know. Ridiculous. It's the Declaration of Independence, damn it. I never read the Da Vinci Code. I'm very sorry to say. The defense presented their case. Interestingly, after they rested, they asked to reopen testimony. They told the judge that they wanted to bring Linda Bilstrom to the stand.

Who the fuck's Linda Bilstrom? Well, I'm glad you asked. She had been subpoenaed, but then she, like, boop, vanished. Do you think subpoena is a funny word? I do, actually. I do. Do you think it's because it's got peen in it? Absolutely.

Absolutely. Hang on. I thought, oh, yeah. You got a hair betwixt your titties? Yeah, it was tickling me real bad. Sorry to make you uncomfortable. Oh yeah, so she'd vanished, boop. She'd been subpoenaed, ha ha ha, vanished.

And the defense had been looking for her because she had some information that might help their case. And they'd finally found her that morning. that might help their case, and they'd finally found her that morning. They wanted her to testify because in 1974, she'd told the FBI that she'd overheard her husband, Bob Bilstrom, and three of his friends, not Donald or Kenneth, planning the kidnapping and later celebrating the kidnapping. Were any of them named Tom?

Hold on. Did any of them go by Grandma? His old pal Grandma Alabama. To be fair, she later recanted that testimony. But, you know, the defense still wanted her to testify. No. But the prosecution objected and the judge sided with the prosecution. Okay.

The jury deliberated for four days. They found both men guilty. Yep. Yeah. Turns out initially it was only the jury foreman who thought they were guilty, but eventually like convinced the entire jury. And that guy was an engineer and the defense attorneys were pissed. So they were like, I'm never putting another engineer in a jury. Which I think is like blaming the golden retriever.

Absolutely. Let's calm down. Yeah. Kenneth was sentenced to life in prison and Donald was sentenced to super prison because, you know, like he's already in. Yeah, he was already in prison for all of the murders. Yeah. But these defense attorneys were pretty pissed and they were like, OK, we're taking this to the Court of Appeals. And a three judge panel ruled two to one that the judge had erred in not letting Linda testify. OK.

So they got new trials. Take two, elect Boogaloo. And this trial was even longer than the first. Or was that just the angle? This time, Linda testified. So her former common law husband, Bill, was now deceased. What? They have the same last name.

They're not married. Well, okay. At different parts of the book, she was given his last name. At other parts, she wasn't. So I don't know if she used his last name. Okay. Listen, Linda. All right.

Nah. Nah. She told the jury that she'd heard him and his crew talking about the Pipers. They had a photo of the entrance of the Piper home. She said that she and Bob camped in Jay Cook State Park. They checked into a motel on July 27th, which created an alibi for him. And she didn't see him again until July 29th. Well, that is certainly sus she said the other guys in the gang were named ronald art and taylor

and that bob had a friend who went by the nickname alabama and guess what he was a construction worker okay under cross-examination she had to admit that she didn't know for sure that they'd And guess what? He was a construction worker. Okay. Under cross-examination, she had to admit that she didn't know for sure that they'd done it. And she had to admit that when she was first interviewed by the FBI in 1972, she said that Bill and his friends were not involved in the crime. So, you know, she's not the perfect defense witness, but who is really? Speaking of which, the defense about shat themselves when two witnesses turned on them. A bank teller who'd exchanged some of the 20s initially told the FBI that she couldn't identify the customer. But on the stand, she was like, oh, yeah, it was Donald.

It was him. Oh, wow. Yeah. Another guy who said he might have made a spare set of keys for the Monte Carlo that was used in the kidnapping initially told the FBI that he couldn't identify the customer that he'd done that for. But on the stand, he pointed to Don and was like, it was either that gentleman or his twin brother. Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm.

Then the defense called Dawn and Kenneth to the stand, which is a bold move. Yeah. But it – I mean, it was fine. No big revelations happened, kind of nothing. This time the jury deliberated for four hours, and they found both men – Guilty. Not guilty. Wow wow that was enough reasonable doubt for them oh yeah i think it's a lot of reasonable doubt it's a ton of reasonable doubt absolutely wow particularly the thing about you tested the fingerprint four times and on the fourth time it was a charm?

Yeah. Give me a fucking break. So there you have it. The statute of limitations had run out. And the FBI always claimed they'd caught the right guys. So this case was done. Ultimately, only about $4,000 of the kidnapping money was ever recovered. Whoever did this got away with it.

Oh, my gosh. And that's why this case is often referred to as the perfect kidnapping. Yeah. The Piper family all had different ways of dealing with this trauma. Bobby never wanted to talk about it. Brandy just wanted to knock her watch loudly against the table because she has no respect. I'm going to wrap you in bubble wrap. Ginny did want to talk about it, though. In fact, when their son Harry said he wanted to

write a book about the kidnapping, Ginny was pretty excited. She wanted him to do that. Yeah. Bobby didn't. And he was actually kind of mean to Harry about it. He said something about, like, you know, profiting off of the family's tragedy. I mean, it was really. It was a lot.

Yeah. And so Harry held off. And in 1988, Ginny died of pancreatic cancer. She was 65. Two years later, Bobby also died from cancer. He was 72. Ginny had told him, wait until your father dies and then write the book. Yeah.

You know, of course, it's not that simple. He was pretty conflicted, but he decided ultimately, OK, I'm going to move forward because he really wanted answers in this case. He always felt like the FBI hadn't gotten the right guys. But, man, it was tough to do. He wanted to get the files from his mom's kidnapping. He figured that should be attainable by now. But the FBI didn't want to share anything. So that set off a 10-year legal battle to get those files.

Wow. Ultimately, Harry discovered that all of the physical evidence from the case was either thrown out or destroyed. Wow. Mm-hmm. Which to me sounds like, yeah, we planted it all. Yep. Because the paper evidence and the photos and all that stuff, that was still there. Mm-hmm.

But the two pieces of physical evidence, they went missing? Yeah. Bullshit. Yeah, absolutely. When he did eventually get the files, I mean, there were a bunch of files and a ton of information was redacted. It was almost useless. It was all kind of jumbled.

He worked and worked to solve the case, but he came up with nothing. It was interesting because he, you know, he kind of seemed to come to this conclusion that, you know, the FBI did work really hard on this. They clearly wanted to solve this. Yeah. But now also it seems like they were willing to do anything. It's just me talking. So Harry told the writer of this book, William Swanson, quote, I was hoping to write this spectacular book in which I'd solve the crime all these years later. I didn't believe that the FBI had solved it, and I thought I was carrying the torch for my mother.

I realized later that solving the crime was more important to me than writing the book. And once I realized that solving the crime was going to be impossible, I lost interest. For this book, William Swanson interviewed one of the defense attorneys, a guy named Ron Meshbesher, which is the best last name I've ever heard. named Ron Meshbesher, which is the best last name I've ever heard. And I'm only including this last part because I think it is very interesting. Yeah. So in this interview with Ron, Ron shared a letter with William that had originally been sent to a TV station on December 28th, 1977. I would like to read that letter to you now.

Okay. 1977. I would like to read that letter to you now. Okay. I am the man who drove the auto taking Mrs. Piper up north. We never crossed a state line. Mrs. Piper lied in court when she said that she didn't stop and that she made the recording while the auto was moving. No engine or road sounds will be found on the tape. We stopped for 15 minutes to let her record the ransom message. A rest stop on the left side of 23 going north. When we stopped, I asked her if she had to go to the toilet. She said that she had already gone in her drawers. She said she was sorry for getting the seat wet.

The FBI agents must be covering this up. The only reason for her to lie about it would be because she and the FBI agents really know the way she was taken. They made her lie in court so it wouldn't come out where she stopped. I hope the lawyers for Larson and Callahan can do something with this. If it helps, it's our Yule gift to them and a root in the arse to your FBI. Oh, Lord. During the war, the Jerrys sent queer five-pound notes to England to hurt the economy. So the British government put metal threads in the real ones so they could be sorted out by machine. We thought there might be a system like that here. That is why we said the bill would be tested for conductivity.

If you give this letter to the FBI, look inside the envelope first. Make sure there isn't a hair in it. Their bloody miracles are better than the virgin birth that we are celebrating this week. Merry Christmas. Wow. The defense obviously decided not to do anything with that letter because it doesn't really prove anything. No. It's just interesting.

It is interesting, yeah. What do you make of that? I don't know. So, okay, something that stands out to me is, like, a lot of the previous letters had kind of British-isms. Yeah. Like saying go to the men's toilet. Like we don't say that. We don't say that.

No. Because we're too classy. That's right. We say powder room. No. But so there are kind of British isms. Yeah. But that could have been just put in there to kind of throw people off.

Absolutely. This is obviously very British. Yeah. I think it's interesting that they say Merry Christmas at the end, though, because the Brits always say Happy Christmas. So I don't know. Who knows? It might be nothing. Yeah.

But, yeah, I think it's totally possible that you say what you got to say. Oh, yeah. To bump this up to the federal level to try to get the right guys. Anyway, that's the story of the so-called perfect kidnapping. That was wild. Wasn't that? I just, I am really grateful for that book. I mean, I can't believe more people haven't written about this.

It's such a fascinating case. Yes. I mean, I can't believe more people haven't written about this. It's such a fascinating case. And, I mean, had a huge impact on the Pipers because, you know, you kind of suspect everyone. And so it really isolated them from their friends because a lot of friends became suspects. Family became suspects in this case. Yeah, it seems like it was someone who knew the Pipers or knew at least Bobby Piper's business.

Right. Or was that just made up? Yeah, who knows? I mean, you'd have to know that he would leave early on Thursday afternoons. Or, oh God, throw another wrench in it. Maybe they don't. And maybe that's just part of the plan to throw people off. As you show up, you act like you're there to get someone else.

And maybe you're taking the person you want to take all along. I don't know. That was wild. I've never heard of that. Well, you don't know much about kidnappings. I know a lot of kidnappings. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

That is your area of expertise for sure. Wow. That is bananas. It really upset the banana cart. Ups that's right that's what people that's what people say you know what i think we should do right now take some questions from the discord absolutely let's do it oh restart now to finish update i think not Do it after 2 a.m., phone. I am podcasting, baby. Ooh, Frozen Like a Grape wants to know, Brandy, blue shampoo, every wash, couple times a week, once a week. Okay, blue shampoo is a toning shampoo. It takes out orangey, brassy tones.

I thought purple shampoo did. Purple shampoo is for yellowy, brassy tones. Good Lord. Wait, what's blue supposed to do? Blue is for orangey, brassy tones. Damn it. That's what I should have, huh? You probably need blue shampoo, yes. Damn it, I just bought purple

shampoo. Purple shampoo will do good. It will do some. Orange shampoo will do more. You mean blue shampoo will do more. I'm sorry. Blue shampoo will do more, yes. Sorry. Okay, I use blue shampoo on my balayage. And I do it, I only

shampoo my hair about every four or five days. Mm-hmm. So I do it every other shampoo. Okay. Because it can be a little drying. Those toning shampoos, purple shampoo, blue shampoo, they even make green shampoo for really dark, brassy tones. Okay. But don't fuck with that.

That is dangerous if you have lighter hues. You're going to turn your hair just straight green. I am so pissed. I am telling you, two days ago, I got a brand new gigantic thing of purple shampoo from Ulta. Yeah. I fucked up, didn't I? I really did it, didn't I? No, I don't think you fucked up, but you will have more results from a blue shampoo.

Anyway, they can be a little drying. So definitely make sure you're using a moisturizing conditioner with them. And then, yeah, I would say depending on how often you shampoo, about every other shampoo, every three shampoos. Okay. Yeah. Go with God, my friend. I am Ken's trusty dick gun, says Kristen. I am training for a half marathon and I almost had a zucchini Kansas City Marathon incident on one of my runs.

What is the strangest place you've had to go to the bathroom on a run? Oh, gosh. Strangest place. Or do you just like hold it in until you. Okay. I've had some close calls. I've never had like a strange place. You've never had to poop in somebody's side yard like of their house? No.

Don't know anybody like that. Yeah. I wish I could say it wasn't related to anyone. No, I mean the one that really stands out is one time I was out for a run just in my neighborhood. I wasn't far from home. And so that makes you cocky. Yeah. You're like, I can keep going.

Yeah. I know I've got a timer running on my butthole, but I'm just going to keep on going because that's what champions do. And boy, howdy, I tell you, I was cutting it real close. I ran inside the house. I had those shorts and undies off in two seconds. Norm was excited and then horrified when I yelled, I have to poop. That's just like a natural outcome of running, right? Don't you like?

No, not really. Really? No? For some people, yes. But like, I mean, I run on the treadmill all the time. No, it's not. And you don't follow up with a poop every time? No.

No. But, you know, sometimes life happens to us all. Tightwad Tanya wants to know, is it ever okay to chew gum while being professional? Like, I know I have coffee breath, but chomp, chomp, smack, smack doesn't sound professional. Tightwad Tanya, I've got great news for you. Let me introduce you to an amazing thing called a mince. A breath mint. No, I don't think chewing, I like gum, but I don't think chewing gum is professional in any way.

I think it's fucking gross. Yeah, I think a lot of gum is professional in any way. I think it's fucking gross. Yeah, I think a lot of people think it's gross. But I think it's better than bad breath. It is. It is. So if you've got to choose, I'd do the gum. But then, like, once you're having to interact, you've got to tuck that in the cheek. You can't just be chomping away while you're talking to people.

I agree. Yeah. Wholeheartedly, Brandy. Oh, okay. Scruffy City Lawyer wants to know, Brandy, do bangs grow faster than other hair? Why am I always needing to trim them? No, they do not grow faster. It's just relativity.

There's, you know, they don't have to grow very much to be out of whack and in your way. So you notice it much faster than the rest of your hair. They grow basically at the same rate as the rest of your hair. But toe hair does grow faster than the rest of your hair. They grow basically at the same rate as the rest of your hair. But toe hair does grow faster than the rest of your hair. Sure. Absolutely. And chin hair. And that's just science.

Man, I tell you what. It's not my chin. It's right below my chin line. I get one coming out each side. Yeah, I get them right under my chin. On your chinny chin line. I get one coming out each side. Yeah, I get them right under my chin. On your chinny chin chin. On my chinny chin chin. That's kind of cute.

I get like three of them. Yeah, little fuckers. They can hear you. How often do you dermaplane that face of yours? I've never dermaplaned it. Oh. I want to dermaplane it oh no my little razor yeah i just do i do it every i don't know week two weeks okay 10 days all right and i just do a

little little right here on my chinning chin and then my little right here i got peach fuzz here too but everybody has that yeah this is just vellus hair. Don't even worry about that. Don't even spend your life thinking about it. I'm spending time. Stop. I'll quit it. It's three minutes. No, you've never done like a dermapen. No, I want to though. Yeah. Yeah. It's good. Yeah. Yeah.

Alright. Oh my god. Doppin' Ditz, what is wrong with you? Which case has the other person done that you pretended you liked more than you really did? Oh lord, I don't know. There are so many things. So many things. I've faked my reactions.

No, I have no idea. I've never felt it necessary to fake a reaction to a case. What if my feelings were at stake? You know, it makes me feel like less of a man when you don't enjoy my case. No, I think we are pretty real. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Oh, my.

Okay, this is a two-part. I didn't even give the answer, but it is a wonderful answer. Okay. This is a two part. And I'm not I didn't even give the answer, but it is a wonderful answer. Okay. Mrs. Linot says getting a double mastectomy and reconstruction in 14 days. Wow. Wow. I hope everything goes well with your surgery. And then she goes on and says, I need new names for my titties.

What you think, ladies? And coochie twinges responded with what i think is a solid answer okay let's hear it leopold and lowe yeah oh that that's great on so many levels yeah yeah your tits tried to get away with it that's right tried to take you down yeah but ultimately they got they got caught. Yeah. Just like Leopold and Lowe. That's right. And now they're hanging on your chesticles. I love it. Leopold

and Lowe. Okay. Yeah. Gosh, I guess the nice thing about reconstruction is you can hoist them up as high on your chest as you want. Yeah, you get, yeah. Silver lining. Yeah, silver get, yeah. Silver lining.

Yeah, silver lining. Fresh titties. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Not these big old things. Yeah, no. Oh, I want to hear the answer to this. Antihistamine says, if London was going to rebel for one thing as a teenager, what would it

most likely be? Oh, goodness. Nothing, because I'm going to let her just follow all of her dreams perfectly. No, I don't know. I'm going to fuck her up in so many ways. It's great that you're planning to do that. Yeah, maybe she's, oh, Lord, what if she. What?

What? What if she becomes, oh, Lord, what if she. What? What? What if she becomes, like, super conservative? What if that's how she rebels? That'd be interesting. It would be interesting. She thinks that every election is rigged. I'm just picturing, yeah, I'm picturing. She storms the Capitol.

Alex P. Keaton on Family Ties. His parents are just very liberal, like hippies. And then he is this staunch. This is a TV show from the 80s. Yeah. He's like a. See, I don't think you're liberal enough for. I'm not.

I'm not. No. So you'd have to pick something else. What would it be? You're looking very worried. No, I mean, I think there's absolutely she's going to rebel, and I don't have any idea what way she will go, but I'm going to support her. Her little dreams. Well, that's not always why people rebel.

No, it's not. It's not because of lack of support yeah you know just trying to assert that they are independent yeah gee i mean she already fucking does that so yeah she's an i do it kid she's been an i do it kid since she was yeah tiny i know yeah i've seen when you don't allow her to do fun things like invite me into the restroom.

Maybe she'll turn into like oh, because she's so polite now maybe she just goes full opposite side of the spectrum. She is very polite. She's so polite.

Yeah. Yeah. At the end of her little birthday party when she turned to me and was just like thank you for coming. Yeah.

Thanks God you're three. Yeah. just like, thank you for coming. Yeah. Like, God, you're three. Yeah. But yes, thank you for having us. She just tells everybody to fuck off all the time. Oh, Lord. Where did she learn that language, I wonder? Brandi, should we do some Supreme Court induction? We shall.

All you have to do to get inducted on this podcast is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. And we are continuing to read your names and your first celebrity crushes. Woo! Sari Lakes. Dylan's spouse from the sweet life of Zach and Cody. Wow, I now happen to be married to an identical twin named Zack. It really is true that you can be attracted to one twin and not the other. Well, thank goodness for that.

That could be awkward. Would be awkward. Hannah Williams. Michael Jackson. Before the plastic surgery. Chanel Glow. But after the child molestation. Stop it.

That's... Of course she did not say that. Jesus. I'm sorry. What next? Chanel glow. Ricky Ullman from Phil of the Future. Jenna.

Tyson Beckford. Megan Hackney. Noah Hathaway. I don't know who that is. I don't know either. Jessica Hawk. Elijah Wood in Flipper. Tara. Oh, my God. Oh, boy. Jessica Hawk Elijah Wood in Flipper Tara

Oh my god Oh boy My first celebrity crush is Kristen Pitts Yes Why haven't more people said that Amy Charleston Who is this Milo Ventimiglia he's Jess from Gilmore Girls

Oh okay Deidre Leonardo DiCaprio. Heather. Michael J. Fox. Alex P. Keaton. Okay. Christy G. Zach Hansen. Rachel W. Patrick Stewart. Dildozer. Nuh-uh, Patrick Swayze. No. Hayley Yost. Kevin James. Mary Harrell. The first thing I wrote in my childhood diary was that I was going to marry Nick Carter. That's how I know that Oprah's The Secret is a sham. Where were you when you learned that The Secret was a sham?

Ariana. David Ruffin. Jen Hart. The Rock. Raquel. Ew. Boy. Oh, no.

Oh, this is going to bring you down after you were so high. You were so, so high. You flew so high. Flew too close to the sun. It's an Icarus moment here. Raquel says her first celebrity crush was my dad. Specifically says your dad, Kristen. here. Raquel says her first celebrity crush was my dad. Specifically says your dad, Kristen.

Disgusting. How do we kick people out of the Patreon? You know, your mom gave a similar answer and you shamed her and she had to delete it. She did delete it. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people need to be ashamed. Abby jtt marine paulo montalban in the brandy version

of cinderella i've never seen that oh you didn't i loved it i've never seen um but i don't remember him at all was he prince charming well i would would imagine, don't you think? It seems like the most logical thing. Probably. I don't think she's in love with the mice, probably. She might be. She might have a crush on Gus Gus. Who knows? Anyways.

Sarah W. Jonathan Brandes. Lily Von Stoop. Parker Stevenson. Emily Schumer. Nick Jonas. Ginny Sherman. Jensen Ackles.

Welcome to the Supreme Court! Oh my goodness. This was nice. This was nice! Thank you everyone for all of your support. We appreciate it so much, especially with our big announcement today.

Yeah. Anxious about that one. Hopefully you don't hate us. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social Yeah. Anxious about that one. Hopefully you don't hate us. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. Find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen.

And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts. Oh. Oh. On one new experts. Oh. Oh. On one new topic. One new topic. One of us will be an expert on one new topic.

That's right. Boy, we gotta figure that out. That sounds really stupid. That's rough. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary.

And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the book, Stolen from the Garden, The Kidnapping of Virginia Piper by William Swanson. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read their stuff. Yeah. Felt really good.