Let's Go To Court! - 260: The Multiple Attacks on Donna Palomba

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

Donna Palomba desperately needed the police’s help. She’d just been attacked in her home by a masked gunman. He’d raped her and threatened her life. Donna was shaken to her core. The attacker had taken pains to disguise himself, but Donna had an unsettling feeling that she knew the man. After all, what were the chances that she’d be attacked the *one* time her husband was out of town? Police needed to act quickly if they wanted to get this predator off the streets.  Spoiler alert: They didn’t. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Man Behind the Mask” episode Dateline “Evil Paid a Visit” episode Dateline “Donna’s Story” janedoenomore.org “Victim ‘Angry And Afraid' as Attacker to Be Released From Prison Early” by Jill Konopka, NBC Connecticut “The Danger” by John Murray, The Waterbury Observer “Infamous Waterbury Case Hits National Spotlight” by John Murray, The Waterbury Observer “Rapist John Regan committed to psychiatric center in N.Y.” by Tracey O’Shaughnessy, Republican American YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 47+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about a home invasion. Oh, will you?

I will. Hello, everybody! That's too much. You need to take it down several notches. Because it's a somber day. Why is it a somber day? Because the road crews are back out in front of my house again. They are back out and they're so fucking loud. We thought they were gone, but they're back.

I had to circle for hours trying to find a parking spot. By hours, she means a couple minutes. It was. They were harrowing. They were very harrowing. I don't operate well with parking anxiety. Oh, my God. You and parking anxiety.

Yeah. This is why you can never live in the city. I can't live in the city. Exactly. You lose your mind. Yeah, I can't handle it. I have to know exactly where I'm going to be able to park. Why, though? You don't

have, like, mobility issues. No, I don't, but it's not about me personally. It's about, like, getting my car in somewhere and then not being able to get it out of that somewhere that I get anxious about.

We shouldn't have parked it in the quicksand. I realize that now. Shit. Hello, everyone. Thank you, everyone. This seems like a weird transition. They're going to think there was like some weird edit.

There was no weird edit. There's no weird edit. We're just basking in how amazing everyone's response has been to our announcement about our format change. Yeah, we really appreciate it. We were super nervous to make that announcement. And we thought we'd get a lot of unhinged, very angry responses. Yeah. Which we would take very seriously and think, okay. Yeah, absolutely.

But no, you're all really nice. Yeah, everybody's been really amazing about it. Thank you. And, oh, But no, you're all really nice. Yeah, everybody's been really amazing about it. Thank you. And oh my gosh, let me tell you something. I didn't prepare a case this week and it feels so good. I did prepare a case this week. Would you like to hear it?

It better not be short. It's actually very long. So this is actually one that's been on my list for a really long time. Yeah, but it's so long. And I is actually one that's been on my list for a really long time. Yeah, but I... But it's so long. Mm-hmm. And I was like, can't do that. And so I have an opportunity to do it today.

You sure do. Yeah. But first, why don't we plug our Patreon? Oh, yeah. Give us a nice butt plug about our Patreon, Kristen. Oh, wow. I've only got this used one right here. Gross.

Anyhow, if you'd like more of us and why wouldn't you that's right join us on Patreon at the $5 level or higher we've got 48 bonus episodes on there they are meaty boys

a lot of fucking bonus episodes we tell two cases per episode on there that's right which is more than I can say for this shitty show also we've got more stuff on there if you want more than I can say for this shitty show. Also, we've got more stuff on there if you want more. Yeah, all kinds of stuff.

Getting ducted? Oh, was that you were just more? Less is more? Okay, fine. Patty, cut all that that I just said. No, don't cut it. Patty, let the people know that Brandy doesn't know what she's doing today. She's all messed up. I feel pretty good today, actually. Do you? Yeah. And we had some delicious fried green beans's doing today. She's all messed up. I feel pretty good today, actually.

Do you? Yeah. And we had some delicious fried green beans at lunch today. Those were the star of the meal. I agree. Yeah. They were good. Anyway, you want to hear about a home invasion?

I do. Okay. A couple things before I start. First, shout outs. I was about to say I watched two episodes of Dateline, but that is a lie. I did use two episodes of Dateline as sources. Dateline covered this twice? They did.

Oh. And I read one of the episodes and I listened to one of the episodes. I watched neither of them. Great. Wow. Thanks for keeping yourself honest. Yeah, you're welcome. Most of this comes from the two episodes of Dateline and then also jandownomore.org. So this story that I'm about to tell you is Donna Palumbo's story. And initially,

when this all unfolded publicly, she was known only as Jane Doe. But she has since come out and said who she was and what she went through. And she started a whole organization behind it called Jane Doe No More. Cool. So I'll tell you more about that later. But I am going to call her Donna Palumbo

through the entire story. But I'll point out maybe different areas where she was still going by Jane Doe and whatever. Keep you on the edge of your seat. This sounds terribly confusing. Stop it. It's not confusing at all. And her name's Donna Palumba. I'm pretty sure I called her Palumbo just a second ago.

Anyway, this is fine. Everything's fine. Are you nervous? No, I'm actually not. I'm really excited is the wrong word. Okay. But this is, you're really going to, this is a Kristen story. Oh, really?

It absolutely is. Excellent. Let's hear it. Let me take it. Let me wet my whistle. Oh, boy. You ready? Yeah.

Okay. Friday, September 10th, 1993 was a long day for 36-year-old Donna Palumba. Donna, who was a partner at a marketing firm, had worked that day, gone to the hospital to visit her business partner's new baby, picked up her two young children, taken them to a concert at an elementary school in their Waterbury, Connecticut neighborhood, and then taken the kids out for pizza. The busy-iest day. Yeah. By the time Donna and the kids arrived home, it was nearly 10 o'clock and Donna was tired.

Not only had the day been long and busy, but Donna had also had to do all of it by herself. As her husband of 12 years, John Palumba, was in Colorado for a friend's wedding. Originally, Donna and the kids were supposed to join him. It was supposed to be like a little family vacay. But then Donna's business partner was due to have their first baby the same day as the wedding. So Donna was like, you know what? Yeah, I'm going to stay because I got to be here for the business. I'll keep the kids. You go. John was actually really reluctant to go without Donna in their 12 years of marriage. They had never spent a single night apart. Oh, wow. Yeah. That might not be OK. The way they phrase it is John had never been away. So maybe

maybe Donna had left and been away for a night, but Donna had never been at home by herself without John. Okay. John was pretty reluctant to do it, but John wanted to go to this wedding. It was a good friend of theirs. He was in Colorado. He loved Colorado. And so Donna was like, go, go.

We're going to be just fine. You know, he was going to leave on a Wednesday, come back Sunday afternoon. So it wasn't like he was going to be gone a really long time. It wasn't like something absolutely horrible was going to happen. No, just totally normal while he was gone. Okay. So after getting home, after this very busy day, Donna got her kids into bed and then headed that way herself. In the early morning hours of September 11th, Donna was awoken by a strange sound. sound. As she lay in her dark room, groggy, somewhere between asleep and awake, Donna realized that the noise that she had heard was footsteps. Oh, God. But they weren't like the soft sounds of

her children's bare feet on the hall floor. They were adult footsteps. Oh, my god donna was laying in bed on her stomach half asleep at that moment when she realized it and she turned she kind of lifted her body up and turned to look into her dark bedroom and she saw a shadowy figure in the room with her oh she knew instantly that the figure was a man and that it was not her husband. She knew something was wrong and that she and her children were in danger, but she had no time to react. The shadowy figure was on her before she had a moment to even think. Donna did her best to fight off the intruder. She clawed and kicked and even bit the man's hand. The intruder had gone to great lengths to disguise himself.

He was wearing a mask and gloves. And when he spoke, it was clear that he was disguising his voice. Mm-hmm. Donna said that this man very quickly overpowered her. He covered her head. What did his voice sound like? She said it was really deep. Like it was very clear that he was speaking in a very deep voice.

And so he overpowered her. He put a pillowcase over her head, tied pantyhose around it as like a blindfold almost. And then he tied her hands behind her back with pantyhose as well. Did he bring the pantyhose? I think they are hers. I don't. Yeah. You know, I don't know that I ever came across that, but I just assumed they were hers. So you're saying Dateline really dropped the ball twice. I did. No mention of whose pantyhose they are. And I will say that it's my, I'm using the term pantyhose.

Okay. The word that was used in all of the other sources was nylons. But I think it's kind of like an old timey term. Yeah. You call them nylons? That's what my great grandma called them. No, I don't call them nylons. But I would guess he showed up with them.

Probably. Yeah. Yeah. And you leave it to me to fill in the gaps. Okay, great. So the man told Donna that she needed to cooperate or she'd get hurt. He then sliced her clothing open with a knife and flipped her over and raped her. clothing open with a knife and flipped her over and raped her. After he was done assaulting her,

Donna said that he asked for money and she pointed him in the direction of her pocketbook. She said she could hear him rummaging around and it took her, you know, gave her a moment to breathe and kind of consider what her next move should be. At this point, she gathered herself a bit and she started talking to the intruder. She told him he hadn't hurt her. She couldn't identify him. Yep. This could be just between them. She wouldn't tell a soul.

And then suddenly the man was on top of her again. This time he put a gun in her mouth. Oh, my God. Donna said the moment when the gun went in her mouth, she was sure that he was going to kill her. Yeah. And she just thought about her children who were sleeping down the hall. Yeah. And how they would wake and

find her body. Oh, my God. She tried reasoning with the man again, telling him, you don't have to do this. I can't identify you. I won't tell anyone. This is just between us. And he moved the gun to her temple. She said it felt like her head was on fire. And she said out loud, because she truly believed at that moment that this man was going to kill her. She said, dear God, please absolve me of my sins. Wow. I can't imagine being in that moment and feeling like this is it. This is how I die.

And the man said back to her in his clearly disguised, deepened voice, if you call the police, I'm going to come back and kill you. And Donna said that was the first moment where she thought, oh, my God, I'm going to live. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, that is the silver lining to that. She said, I might live. I might live through this. And she said again, I won't tell a soul.

I can't identify you. Yep. And then the man left. She listened as he walked down the hall, down the stairs, and out the front door of her house. She was still tied up. Holy shit. And so she fought the ties on her wrists, managed to untie herself, and she ran down the hall to her children's rooms.

Yeah. And she was stunned to find them still asleep in their beds. How old were they? Five and seven, I think. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Thank God they slept through that. that god they slept through it so donna now knew she had to get help so she ran back to her bedroom she picked up a cordless phone that was in the room but it was dead so then she ran down the hall

and she picked up a corded phone it's 1993 remember so she doesn't have a cell phone she picks up a corded phone it's it's dead too and she realizes that this man has cut the phone lines wow and so she's like what do i do now i have to get help but i don't know if this man is outside of my home waiting for me and And what do I do with my children? Right. She knew that she could not physically, like, pick her children up and take them with her. And so she made a really difficult decision. She ran downstairs. She checked the house to make sure that this man was gone.

When she found no sign of him, she grabbed the single key to their house, like off of their key rack or whatever, and she ran to a neighbor's. How had he gotten into the house? Don't know. So it's the husband. Is it? Well, I really hope not. Don't know. Don't know how I got in.

Well, you do know. I actually don't. But you know whether or not it's the husband. I do know that. Yes, but I'm not going to tell you that. You will. Not yet. In a moment.

And I'm either going to feel like the smartest person on the planet or like the biggest asshole. Okay. Stay tuned, folks. Find out which one she is. So Donna threw on a bathrobe over her clothes. Like she still had like pantyhose tied around her. She'd gotten the pillowcase off, but the pantyhose that were tied around her like a blindfold were still around her neck.

So she throws on a bathrobe and she runs out of the house making sure that she locks the door so that the door is locked for her children are asleep in the house. But she didn't know what else to do. I think this would be a really tough call. Oh, no. Do I wake up my children and traumatize them? Do I? Yeah, I don't know what the right answer is, but she did what she needed to do.

And she ran out into her neighborhood and looked for the first house where, number one, people that she knew lived there. And number two, had a light on. Yeah. And she came to the house of Cliff Warner, who happened to be her husband's cousin. He happened to be home by himself, still up watching a movie. So she goes and she pounds on his door. And when Cliff came to the door, he said that he just knew when he just like got a single glance at Donna that something horrible had happened to her and he said Donna what happened

and she just she just started like breathing really hard and she said I've been attacked I've been attacked the guy left but he threatened to kill me if all the police, I don't know what to do. And Cliff picked up the phone and called 911. Yeah. He started talking with the dispatcher, but the dispatcher was wanting an address and he didn't know off the top of his head Donna's address. And so he ends up handing the phone to Donna and Donna is, you know, telling him the whole story. I was attacked. A man broke into my home. My children are still at the house.

What do I do? What do I do? And they're like, do not you stay where you are. We've got police in route. Do not go back to the house. Yeah. And so she's explaining to them what happened. And she's like, the gentleman who did this to me said that that if I call the police, he's going to come back and kill me. He's going to come back and kill me. And my children are still there. He's going to come back and kill me. And the dispatcher goes, well, he can't do that. You're not there. He's going to come back and kill me.

And the dispatcher goes, well, he can't do that. You're not there. Oh. What? I know. I listened to this 911 call multiple times. And I'm like, what the fuck? I hated that response. Well, I hope that person got a fucking talking to.

Anyway, so while Donna is on the phone with this 911 dispatcher cliff runs back in the house gets an axe and decides he's gonna go stand in the front in front of the front door of donna's house love it just in case just in case the attacker comes back yeah yeah and so that's what he does he gets the axe he runs up the street and he said the whole time he was running there like so he lives a few houses away, but it's the same neighborhood. Very close-knit neighborhood. Like, the families that live in this neighborhood have lived there for years. Like, this is where Donna's husband John grew up.

Like, it's big Catholic families that live in this area. And so, like, he knows everybody in this neighborhood. He's like, I can't believe this is happening in our neighborhood to us. And so Donna is, you know, relaying everything that's happened to this 911 person. And she just wants to get back to her house. She just wants to get back to her kids. And he's telling her, no, stay there. You know, you have to stay there.

And then the dispatcher. And it's so good because the dispatcher has been so nice to her. Yeah. And then the dispatcher is like, OK, you because the dispatcher has been so nice to her. Yeah. And then the dispatcher's like, okay, you know, make sure you don't change your clothes. And she's like, right, no, I haven't changed my clothes. And he's like, okay, make sure you don't wash up or anything. And she's like, right, right, right. I understand.

Are the police coming? Are they coming? And so finally, like, a police officer gets there. And she immediately hands the phone to the police officer. And the police officer gets on the phone with the dispatcher. And they have an exchange that is recorded on this 911 call. And the dispatcher goes, hey, is this lady, is she like, is she all torn up? Like, is this?

And the police officer goes, yeah, this looks really bad. And he goes, and the dispatcher goes, yeah, this sounds really bad. This sounds really serious. Okay. And so they, like, make this assessment right then, like, okay, all right, this looks like this might be a for real thing that we've got going on here. Wow, could we start from that mindset? Right, exactly. Exactly.

Exactly. Exactly. So after the police arrived at the neighbor's house, Donna had like handed the phone there and then she started making other calls, too. She called her brother in law and said, you know, I need help with the kids. Can you call anybody? You know, whatever. Her mother in law also lived in the neighborhood. So she calls her brother in law and he's like, I'll take care of it, whatever. And then Donna at this point had been told not to go back to the house but she's like, fuck it, I'm going back. Donna did not say fuck it. She is not the type of

woman who would say fuck it. Right. But your kids are there, you're going back. And so she finally can't take it anymore and she runs up the street back to her house and by the time she gets there the place is packed. There are family members all over the place. There are police all over the place.

Her brother in law's there. There are police all over the place. Her brother-in-law's there. Her neighbor, Cliff, was up there still. Donna was allowed into the house and to go upstairs and to check on her children. And she was surprised to find that they were still asleep in their beds. Even with all of this activity going on around them, police all around them, family members all around them. They even continued to sleep as the police shined flashlights in their faces. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Donna's brother-in-law, Bill, he picked up the kids and carried them out of the house and they were taken to their grandmother's house. And then Donna just stood in the house in a state of shock. She remembers

police officers coming and going and opening and closing windows and allowing family members to come in and checking doors. How many people were allowed to come in? So many people. This crime scene was secured in no way. And the police also were trying to figure out how this intruder got in,

and so they opened and closed every door and window in like the whole house. Okay. And as instructed, she hadn't changed out of her clothes, but she had put on that bathrobe for modesty. And so the clothes that her attacker had cut open remained underneath the robe. And she had the pantyhose hanging off her wrists like bandages and like a pantyhose tied around her neck still. Finally, the lone female officer who had arrived on scene told Donna that she needed to take her to the hospital. Yes.

To get a rape kit done. Yes. And so Donna went to the hospital and at the hospital they performed a rape kit and they gave Donna this big IV dose of antibiotics just in case of any kind of infection and then treated an injury to her eye. She'd like scratched her cornea when he had put the pillowcase over and like, I'm sorry, she didn't scratch her cornea. Her cornea had been scratched by the act of him putting a pillowcase over and like i'm sorry she didn't scratch her cornea her cornea had been

scratched by the act of him putting a pillowcase over her head and blindfolding her so they treated that as well donna's then spent three hours in the hospital vomiting repeatedly as the shock wore off and the reality of what she had just gone through sank in. Yeah. In the midst of all of that, though, Donna was thinking about John and how she was going to have to, her husband John, and how she was going to have to tell him about this horrible thing that happened while he was away. She and the family all decided together that they wouldn't call him

that night. They would wait until he returned from Colorado the next day. Donna, so Donna talks about this on the Dateline episode a little bit. And she says that she knew that it would be painful to him that he was so far away that he couldn't do anything to help. And so it would just hurt him. And so she didn't want to call and tell him. She wanted to wait until he got back. What would you do? You know, I think if I have been attacked like that and been through that,

and I would need to tell Norm. Absolutely, I would need to tell Norm. Absolutely. I would need to tell him right away. And I mean, I don't care how it sounds. I don't think I'd be super worried about him feeling upset. I don't think I would either. You know, obviously. Yeah.

I, yeah, I think I would have to tell. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't wait, I don't think. But this is what she decided to do. Yeah. And, you know, so John gets home the next day. He comes home to a house full of his relatives and he knows he's like, what's going on here? Right. And then he saw Donna. Donna was home by now. She had sunglasses on and he took her sunglasses off and she had like a patch over her eye. And he said, what is going on? And then Donna told him what had happened the night before that someone had, well, you know, Saturday, whatever.

Really two nights before, I guess. Yeah, this is not the important part. And so Donna told him that someone had broken into their home and raped her. And she said that just the immediate reaction from John was just pain, pain that he hadn't been there to protect his family. Yeah. The first time he'd been away from his family in 12 years. Am I going to feel bad for thinking that he's the bad guy? Are you? I don't know.

And then he was angry. She said he was so angry. He said if he hadn't left, this wouldn't have happened. So he was angry that this happened. He was angry he wasn't there to stop it. He was angry that he wasn't there to protect his family. Within the next couple of days, Donna sat down with the police and gave them a statement. She said she couldn't identify her attacker. He had a mask on. He had gloves on. She said that the only thing that really stuck out was that he was super strong. He was able to throw her around

very easily. Yeah. He smelled like grease. So she thought maybe he was a mechanic or something like that. And then also he was very obviously disguising his voice. And what about Aldi? No, Aldi was not there. She did wish that she had some of those Fit and Active crackers from Aldi. Fit and Active crackers. No, you Fit and Active crackers from Aldi. Fit and Active crackers. No, you go for the cookies at Aldi.

My God, do I have to hold your hand through the grocery store to help you? It's the Benton's that you want. What's a Benton's? Oh, that's the Aldi Oreos. Is that what they are? You got to get with it. Okay. Listen, let me tell you about the Aldi Oreos.

Tell me about Aldi Oreos. They don't have a real consistent look to them. Oh, let me tell you about the Aldi Oreos. Tell me about Aldi Oreos. They don't have a real consistent look to them. Oh, yeah? Not a lot of quality control going into an Aldi Oreo. They taste like quality. I'll tell you that. They don't look like quality. Okay.

I'm not paying for looks. You like them just as much as you like an Oreo, huh? I don't know about that. Oh, okay. But have you seen the price of Oreos these days? Listen, I bought a hot tub. I can't also have name brand cookies. That's right.

It's give and take. It's give and take. You know, Brandy, you can afford anything, but not everything. Think on that for a moment. So when Donna sat down with the police You can afford anything, but not everything. Think on that for a moment. So when Donna sat down with the police and told them, you know, I can't identify him. I didn't see his face.

He was disguised. She did tell them that she thought that the timing was odd. Right. What are the odds that this person would attack me the first time John has been out of our home away? And John said the same thing. John was present at the police station with Donna. And he's like, this is not a coincidence. This is somebody new.

Somebody knew that I was gone. Is John buff or what's his deal? Okay. So here's what I know about John. John seems to be kind of a stocky guy. All right. He's hard deal? Okay. So here's what I know about John. John seems to be kind of a stocky guy. All right. He's hearty. Okay.

You're describing a soup right now. You're not going to be able to blow him over with a breeze. Okay. What I will say is John sounds kind of scary. Really? He speaks. Like the way he speaks. Like give me a line. I don't do voices like you do, Kristen.

You can try. But what he does, he speaks like an East Coast mobster. Okay. Tony Soprano just came home from a wedding and found out that Carmella has been attacked. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I got nervous listening to John speak a little bit.

Just the tone of his voice. Okay. Okay. The tone of his voice is very commanding. How's he smell? I'm going to do what John says. How's he smell? I didn't smell him.

I don't know. No smell-o-vision. No. We know you didn't watch the Dateline episode, but did you sniff it? I did not. No sniffing. No. Okay.

I've seen a picture of John as well, but... Okay. I've decided it's probably not the husband. Have you? Yeah, I have. Okay. Which means I am an asshole.

I am an asshole. So, Donna makes this statement to the police and they start investigating her case. And really, John and Donna felt very confident in the Waterbury Police Department. Like they felt like they were taking this seriously and that, you know, Donna felt like there was a good chance that like she could get justice from this. And she wanted to help the police in any way that she could. And so about a month after the attack, Donna reached out to the police because she wanted to tell them about a weird interaction that her sister had had. A weird interaction that her sister had had. So her sister's out somewhere like in October of 1993.

And she runs into this friend of Donna's and hers from when they were teenagers. Okay. Some guy that they knew. And he starts acting really weird with Donna's sister. And then suddenly gets aggressive. I don't know what that means exactly. That's all it was described as. What do you mean you don't know more than that? That's all I know.

He got aggressive. Weird and aggressive. Yes, aggressive with Donna's sister. And so Donna's sister called Donna and was like, hey, this really weird thing just happened. And Donna's like, I think we have to tell the police. Like maybe, maybe he's involved in this somehow. I think we have to tell the police like maybe maybe he's involved in this somehow. OK. And so Donna calls the police and says, hey, she calls specifically Lieutenant Douglas Moran, who is the lead detective on her case. And she's like, hey, I've got this thing I want to tell you about.

Would you you might come in by my office and I'll and I'll kind of walk you through it. And he's like, actually, can you come down to the police station and we'll make a statement together at this at the police department at this point donna was really nervous to do that because she didn't want to be seen interacting with the police right because her attacker had said if you call the police i'm going to come back and kill you but what a stupid thing to think because she wasn't in her house at that exact moment. Right. And so she was like, you know, she tried to tell the lieutenant, like, I'd really prefer if we met outside of the police department. Right. And he's like,

gotta be here. It's gotta be here. Why? And so she agreed. Are they treating her like a suspect somehow? I don't know. Are they? Yeah, I think they are. So on Friday, October 15th, 1993, Donna and her sister went to the police department in Waterbury to make this statement to the police so that they could add this to the investigation. But once she got to the police station, Lieutenant Moran like led her into a really tiny room, sat her down at a little desk.

Good grief. And he pulled out a tape recorder, sat it on the desk, hit record, and then he pulled out a little piece of paper, a little white piece of paper, and he unfolded it. And then he read Donna Palumbo her Miranda rights. What the hell? And Donna said, what is happening right now? What are you doing? Yeah. And Lieutenant Moran looked at her and he said,

this is how I'm handling this. That doesn't answer the question at all. And she goes, handling what? And then he launched into basically a verbal assault on Donna. He told her that he'd listened to her tapes. That's the verbiage she used. Tapes. The 911 call.

Okay. Repeatedly. Uh-huh. And that her story didn't match up. And she's like, what do you mean? He said, there's holes all over this story. And she's like, okay, tell me what your concerns are. I'm sure that any of it can be explained.

Right. And then he told her. Oh, my God. That he and his other detectives at the police department had come together and they discussed this case and that they had come to the conclusion that Donna was lying about the whole thing. Based on what? Based on her not, the initial suspicion that she was lying came from her 911 call. Do you know what she said on her 911 call that made them believe that she was lying? No, what?

She called her attacker that gentleman or the gentleman, the gentleman who did this. Oh, good Lord. It's just the way she speaks. Right. And also, she's been through something horribly traumatic. Maybe she's not going to use all the words we might think she would. Yep. So that was the number one thing that stuck out to these detectives

as they re-listened to her 911 tape over and over and over again. She referred to her attacker as gentleman. Uh-huh. And then they told her. So she's sitting there and he's telling her all the reasons that he thinks her story is made up. That it's too big of a coincidence that it happened the one time her husband's out of town. Well, right. What?

No, no. And that they couldn't find how the attacker even made it in the house. Well, you had a fucking parade come through there. So whose fault is that? Yeah. There... What you got, Kristen? I've got nothing.

I'm just mad, but like... Okay. A woman is attacked the one time her husband's out of town. It doesn't mean she's making it up. It means someone that knows the family did it. Exactly. Yeah.

Okay. I listened to this 911 call, just snippets of it multiple times. If she is lying about it, she deserves a fucking Oscar. Right. Because she is hyperventilating. She keeps saying, I don't know what to do. I don't know. My children.

I need to get to my children. She is clearly so distraught. And then at one point, when she's just waiting for direction on what she was supposed to do, she just keeps going, I can't believe this happened. I can't believe this happened. Yeah. There's not a

bit of it that sounds fake. So, There's not a bit of it that sounds fake. So Detective Moran, Lieutenant Moran, what the fuck ever, continues on and he says that they have countless photographs and interviews that prove that she is lying. Oh. And she goes, okay, what do you have? Show me what you have. Yeah. He's like, whoa. I can't because I'm making it up.

We're not going to do that because this is an ongoing investigation. Oh, my God. But, and so then she's just like, at this point, Donna said that the room was spinning for her. She couldn't even believe this is the last possible thing she expects. She felt like she was being attacked for a second time. Yes. And the thing about these attacks for her is the first one happened in her home, the place that you are supposed to feel safe.

And the second one happened when she went for help. Right. In a place that she thought she was supposed to feel safe. Right. So he's continuing to tell her all this stuff and she goes, I just, I can't even imagine what you must be thinking right now doing this to me. That's what she says to this man. And he said, he looks at his watch and he goes, I'm thinking about what I'm going to have for lunch today. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Dude. Yeah. And so Donna's like, I don't I don't even know. Like, I don't know what you want me to tell you. And then he puts up a hand and he says, Donna, you have everything to lose here. Oh my God.

Your husband, your children, your reputation, your business. He starts counting them out on his fingers. You have everything to lose. Oh my God. And he threatens her with arrest. He said, I'm going to go ahead and let you leave right now. Oh, thank you. But you're going to come back here this afternoon and tell me the truth.

I've got 27 cases on my desk and I'm closing this one at the end of today. That's the real answer. That's the real answer that's the thing I this is going to be really hard to solve it's so much easier to bully you into you being the bad guy yeah then for me to actually do my job. And so Donna left the police station just like freaking the fuck out. The whole meeting lasted about an hour. And she went home and she told her husband what had just happened. She said she was facing arrest. So he said, if you don't come back this afternoon,

I'm going to come and find you and arrest you. And your face will be in tomorrow's newspaper. Oh, my God. Because at this point, the attack had made news, but she had only been known as Jane Doe at this point. Right. But now she's somehow the bad guy. Exactly. Yeah. So she goes home. She tells her husband. And he's like, remember, I told you John's kind of scary. Yeah. John's a little bit scary. Yeah, good.

Yeah. And he's like, what the fuck? And he and Donna's dad go down to the police station and they ask to talk to Lieutenant Moran. I am very sorry that I said anything negative about John. John is now my best friend. And I hope he took an ax down to the police station. To the police department. No fucking kidding. So he walks in,

and the lieutenant wouldn't even sit down with them. He just stands in a hallway, and John is screaming. Good. How dare you talk to my wife this way? He's lost his fucking mind. Yeah. And the lieutenant goes, you know what?

We have full proof evidence that she's lying. No, you don't. And John goes, there's no way. There's no way. You don't know my wife. And Lieutenant Moran goes, we have rock solid evidence. We have rock solid evidence. No, you don't. And so John's like, what is it solid evidence. We have rock solid evidence. No, you don't.

And so John's like, what is it? Well, it's an ongoing investigation. Uh-huh. If you had rock solid evidence, she'd be under arrest right now. Mm-hmm. So John and Donna's dad leave the police department that day, and it would be weeks before they found out what that rock solid evidence was. How soon until they hire an attorney? It's going to happen.

It needs to happen right now. It's going to happen. It's going to happen. So that that attorney can also get an ax. We're just giving out axes. You get an ax and you get an ax and you get an ax. Listen, I'm a big fan of the solution of standing in front of the home with an X. Yes, with an X. Excellent.

Exactly. Buddy. Yes. So, like, a month after this, when Donna's like, no idea what even led to this. Like, what has happened that they think I'm fucking lying. Like, this makes no sense. They find out that a police informant. Oh, so the rapist. Had come forward.

The rapist came forward. And said that they'd heard a rumor. Oh, my God. That Donna was having an affair. And that while John was gone, she'd had her lover in their home mm-hmm and that one of their children had woken up and walked in on her with her lover and that she put the kid back to bed and then she'd concocted this whole story so that no one would know she'd been having an affair.

It is town fucking gossip. Right. That the police took as fact. Because it made their job easier. Mm-hmm. They don't have to investigate. Mm-hmm. If it's all a rumor. Yep.

So at this point, all of these rumors are going through town. Mm-hmm. Yep. So at this point, all of these rumors are going through town. And like, while Donna had not been named publicly, people who knew Donna knew that she was the one who had been attacked. So enough people knew. Well, you know, in a tight-knit neighborhood, if something happens like this, word's going to get out. Absolutely. So when this information comes out, there's this moment where John was really angry that this is what's being said about his wife and then like for like one second he's like he goes to donna and he's like okay you're not having an affair right were you having an affair and she's like no no no and he's like okay

thank god i knew like i knew i know you like there's just like one tiny moment where he's like i have to i just have to ask yeah and. And she's like, no, absolutely not. And so when they learn this, they're like, okay, like we have to set the police straight. Like this is clearly not what has happened here. And so they ask to sit down with Lieutenant Moran's superior. I think the chief of police. And they go and they want to go sit down with him. And they do.

He's the police captain. My God. Sorry. So not the police captain. My God. Sorry. So not the chief of police. He's the captain. Anyway, I don't really know what the difference is. Do you know what the difference is? Yeah, but I don't feel like talking about it.

Okay, great. Because it's an open investigation. Yeah, it's an open investigation. Yeah, it's an open investigation. But I definitely know the difference, okay? And it's foolproof. I've got the info right here in my brain. And so they request a sit down with the police captain. And they go and they tell him, you know,

we'd like to listen to the tape that was made when donna sat down with lieutenant moran and the captain's like oh yeah sorry i you know it's not available this is an open investigation and john's like you mean an ongoing investigation right on go whatever okay okay either think it's the same thing. All right, sassy. Open and ongoing. It's not closed. Well, it's not Captain and Chief of Police.

And so John's like, no, you need to hear. You need to hear what was said to my wife. Mm-hmm. And he's like, well, you know. I'd really rather not. In some cases, this is, you know, a reasonable line of questioning. And, you know, our detectives are just kind of stymied by this case. And so, you know, it's kind of natural to go down this path just to be sure.

Fuck off. Turns out that the captain is the lieutenant's older brother. Oh, my God. Yeah. So that's really cool it is really cool super cool great um and then he said you know you know with the investigation kind of not going anywhere how it is right now what we'd really like to do is uh is sit down with your your children get their version of that night's events. And Donna says, absolutely not. Go to hell.

Yeah. Donna says, absolutely not. Nope. And the captain goes, well, you know, we just want to know if either of them woke up that night and kind of wandered around the house, maybe saw anything. And Donna goes, I can tell you they did not.

They were in their beds. Yeah, you're not going to traumatize my kids. And the attacker was next to me the entire time. Like, well, you don't know what they might have seen. Who can confirm that they didn't get up and wander around the house? And Donna goes, I can. I am. And she refused to let them question her children.

Absolutely. Yeah. John and Donna left that meeting with the captain, like, deeply disturbed. They could not believe the route this investigation was going. The perpetrator was still at large. Her attacker was still out there. And instead they were harassing the victim. Right.

Donna and John didn't really know where to go from here. They didn't have a lot of confidence that their case was being investigated in any kind of direction that would lead to any kind of justice at this point. What made them think that? Yeah, right. And Donna was never arrested despite

the lieutenant's threats to her. Uh-huh. But in the spring of 1994, by that point, the investigation was at a standstill. Seven months had gone by since Donna had been attacked and they were no closer to figuring out who the attacker was than the night that it had happened. Boy, that's reassuring. Yeah, super, super reassuring. And Donna doesn't even feel safe in her home. Hell no. And she's not sleeping.

She can't eat. And this is clearly someone she knows. Yes, exactly. So she said it. She and John both said, like, this changed how they looked at everybody they knew. Absolutely. So in the spring of 1994, the case gets reassigned. Okay. So the term that, I had a really tough time with this.

The term that Dateline used to describe the new detective that gets assigned to this case was a crack detective. And I was like, do they really have that big of a problem with crack cocaine in Waterbury, Connecticut? But I think it means he's the detective who cracks all the cases. Is that what that means? I don't know. I don't know if I know. I don't think this guy was working the crack beacon. I don't think so either. And then all of a sudden got pulled over into this. Yeah, I don't think this guy was working the cracks. I don't think so either.

He got pulled over into this. Yeah, I don't think so. Was this guy also related to the captain? He was not. No. So his name's Neil O'Leary, and John really respected this guy. He thought he was a good police officer. And when he got assigned to the case, he really liked it.

And when Detective Leary looked over this investigation. Was it O. Leary or Leary? O. Leary. What did I say? You dropped the O. Oh, I'm sorry. And I said, oh, no, she didn't. Detective O. Leary.

I assume he's Irish. You don't want to say something about Lucky Charms, Kristen? I stopped myself. I saw you think it. Oh, dear me. Did you see me think? Top of the morning to you. I saw you think so many things.

But you were like, my God. The restraint. Oh, she's amazing. Oh. So Detective O'Leary, as it turns out, starts looking at the case. And he thinks that this thing has been messed up so bad. The entire case. Yes.

From the very beginning. Agreed. Yeah. He said it was the perfect storm of mistakes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He said it was the perfect storm of mistakes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Number one was that Detective O'Leary was like the day detective. And like when any any major felony occurred at night, he was supposed to be alerted of it.

And they never alerted him. Never told him that this happened. He learned of it when he was given the case and he read the police report. He They never told him that this happened. He learned of it when he was given the case. How good grief. And he read the police report. He had never been told that this happened. Why not? No idea.

Okay. No idea. So then he starts looking into it. And the way the crime scene was processed, it basically wasn't. Yeah. No photographs were taken. The scene was processed, it basically wasn't. Yeah. No photographs were taken. The scene was never secured. They never sent in a forensics team.

They didn't talk to any of the neighbors. They didn't talk to the family. They didn't interview the family members that showed up at the house that day. They didn't do any of it. They did none of it. On the Dateline episode, Detective O'Leary is asked if he had to give a grade to the police for their performance of how they handled the scene that night, what grade he would give them. And he said he would give them a D minus. Why not an F? who first responded, like the low man on the totem pole, had the forethought to collect the bedding

and collect Donna's clothing when she went to the hospital. Well, I'm glad someone did something. Oh, I forgot to mention this. Okay, this is so ridiculous to me. I forgot to mention this in the sit-down with the detective. One of the other things that made the police detectives all collectively think that Donna was lying about this is

because she'd walked around with the pantyhose still tied to her body. They told her she couldn't take it off. Exactly! Oh my god. They said it was almost theatrical. Like she was wearing a costume. Oh, that's. They said it was almost theatrical, like she was wearing a costume. Oh, that's so gross.

Yeah. Ridiculous. I hate these guys. Yeah. Detective Neil O'Leary gets this case, and he's like, this is so fucked up. So he goes back to the very beginning and starts processing it like it is the day that it happened. He listens to the 911 tape. And he said he cannot understand how the previous detectives who listened to this thought this was anything other than 100 percent genuine.

He said you can feel the fear in her when you listen to these tapes. I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so then he started his actual investigation. He went back to the crime scene and went and talked to Donna. He had her walk him through the whole thing. And Donna was reluctant at first. I'm sure. And he said, listen, even though all this time has passed, we want to help you. And he said, I know that this case has not been handled properly. Yeah.

He said, I want to change that. And so Donna started working with him. And John really liked it. They had a much better working relationship with neil o'leary than they had had with fucking detective moran more like moron wow brandy that's so harsh keep in mind that this is a family show it's not anyway so they start talking to family members who were present that night they start talking to neighbors members who were present that night. They start talking to neighbors, find out if anyone knew anything. Something that had not been done to this point.

Well, you want to do this thing about seven months after it happens. Yeah, exactly. One of the things that was really big to Detective O'Leary was figuring out how the attacker got in the house. They couldn't figure that out. And they still don't know. But there's a couple of theories. attacker got in the house. They couldn't figure that out. And they still don't know. But there's a couple of theories. And one of them he learned when he started doing an actual investigation and talked to Donna's mother-in-law, John's mom. Did you like how I put a pause between mother

and in-law? Like a real long break there. Keep you on the edge of your seat. I just want you to know that any mistake you make, no matter how minor, is being monitored. Thank you. You're making notes about it. Yes. Am I going to get a grade at the end of this? You will. You absolutely will.

So what he found out when he started talking to the family members was that Donna and John kept a spare key to their house at John's mother's house. And that key had gone missing shortly before the attack. Oh, shit. But nobody investigating this had ever asked any questions to family members, so they didn't know this. So that's one of the theories, is that the attacker had... Had a key. Yeah had had a key. Yeah. Had a key and got in.

One thing that Detective O'Leary was sure of was that this attacker knew the Palombas had to. It's too big of a coincidence. He had to know that John was not going to be there. It's too big of a coincidence. And that's why she obviously made it all up. No. And so what he learned was that the night of the attack, there was a big bachelor party in town that, like, all of John's friends were at. All of his brothers were there.

So this is apparently a town thing. They call them stag parties, and they're, like, a really big deal. And so I know, like, bachelor parties are a thing, but these are like apparently really big in Waterbury. Like huge deal. Like over 100 people were at this thing. Oh, my God. Yes. And so all of John's brothers were there.

And so people who were at the party would have been like, hey, where's John? Where's John? Oh, he's in Colorado for a wedding. Oh. And this party happened just a few streets over from Donna's house. Okay. So perhaps somebody who was present at this party learned that John was out of town and took that opportunity to go break into his house and attack his wife. Oh, God.

Yeah. This became Detective O'Leary's working theory. He thought this was the best connection he could find to, you know, how somebody would have known. Because John said every one of his friends was at that party that night. And he would have been there had he not been at the wedding in Colorado. I just want the listeners to know that they missed a lot of really great hand gestures. There was a lot of hand gestures there. And I bet they don't even understand what's happening in the story.

So many hand gestures. the story. Many hand gestures. So Detective O'Leary went to work making notes about who was, he made a whole list of who was at this party and he started tracking down people and talking to them. He talked to dozens of people. He got lots of people to give

voluntary DNA samples. Sure. But didn't really come back with anything. What do you think of this? That idea of, like, someone's at a party, they find out. I don't like that. You don't? Because it doesn't seem like that would be more planning went into it than that?

I feel like this sounds like it's more planned out. Yeah. And, I mean, I was about to say it's more sinister. Mm-hmm. I mean, obviously it's sinister either way, but to me this just strikes me as way more calculated than just I'm at a party, I find out some dude is in Colorado, his wife's at home. Yeah. Gee, why don't I go over? Why don't I go rape her? Yeah, that at home. Yeah. Gee why don't I go. Why don't I go rape her.

Yeah. That just seems. Yeah. Seems. Far fetched. Yeah. Yeah. No I agree.

OK. Continue. Let's listen and find out. Don't talk to me like I'm a child. Just because I was wanting to quote the Lucky Charms guy a minute ago. As he's doing this investigation, he also comes over like the report from that interaction that Don had had with Lieutenant Moran where he threatened to arrest her. And he could not believe that that happened. Like it was so just beyond the scope of any training he had ever received.

He could not believe like that was the conclusion they leaped to. And this really, him being all in on this case and believing that Donna was not making it up and believing that this really happened really separated him and the department. People wouldn't talk to him. Hmm. Yeah. Cool. Other police officers, other detectives wouldn't talk to him. Great.

Yeah. All right. I love to hear that. Yeah. Yeah. This investigation is going somewhere. Okay. I know I said they were taking swabs for DNA.

I don't really know. It's like 1994 at this point, so I don't really know what kind of swabs they were taking because I don't think that type of DNA was out yet. Was it? What kind of swabs do you think they were taking? I don't know. So they mentioned that he's taking voluntary DNA samples or voluntary, and they were just running them through the crime lab like crazy. But maybe that comes later in the investigation. Spoiler alert, this doesn't get solved for like 11 years.

Well, okay, this is just me talking about my ass, but my assumption would be that DNA tests even nowadays are pretty expensive to get done. I would assume they were probably even more expensive back in the day. So I would imagine that would be more of like an investigative technique just to see. Who's willing to give. Yeah. That's absolutely true. And maybe they sit in the trunk of your car.

Right. I don't know. So Detective O'Leary's on the case now. He's working on it. Did you say 93? 90. Yeah, it's like 94 by this point. Okay.

It happened in 93. I do know how they took those samples. You're going to make some stupid joke. Oh, my God. I have never in all my years felt so attacked. I'm so attacked. I had a great joke all lined up about how in 93 that was the year of the anal swab. But you just couldn't let me tell it, could you?

Couldn't let me shine. I apologize. I apologize. I apologize. So, well, John and Donna are thrilled that they have somebody who actually fucking believes them and who cares about this case on their side now. They're so pissed about how Donna has been treated. Of course they are. And so in April of 1994, they get a lawyer and they file an official complaint with the police department asking for an internal investigation into the police conduct in their case. Well, what's the guy's uncle's going to invest? Exactly. And so they do an internal affairs investigation into the Waterbury Police Department. It takes a year. And then

the police release their findings. Okay. No impropriety was found. Oh! None. Cool. None at all. Great. Everything was cool. I'm so glad they investigated that.

No big deal. Uh-huh. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Donna said when that came back with no impropriety, she said she felt like she had been stabbed. It physically was painful to her. She could not believe that that was the result of an internal affairs investigation. But Donna and John Palumbo weren't standing for it, Kristen.

Okay. They knew that the way Donna had been treated was wrong. So they looked at each other and they said, Let's go to court! And now I think it's time to break for an ad. I don't think so. I think I'd like to hear the rest of this story. Well, I'll tell you it as soon as we come back from the ad. Do-loo!

Do-loo! And we're back! John and Donna have looked at each other. They've locked eyes. They've looked into each other's souls. And they've said, let's go to court. This next part comes directly from Donna's website. So I'm going to read you in her own words how this went down.

Everyone, Brandi's so excited to read in her own words. Look how happy you are. I am. We filed suit against the police officers and the city of Waterbury. The lawsuit was extensive, citing 26 violations in all. I had now formally developed a list of police department policies and procedure changes that I wanted implemented so that no other victim would have to go through this type of nightmarish trauma. I wanted improved sexual assault training that assured innocent victims be treated with dignity, respect, and compassion. I also wanted an apology and acknowledgement that I was telling

the truth all along. That was her big thing. Yeah. She wanted an apology. She didn't care about money. She wanted an apology. She continues on. We were willing to settle and avoid trial if my requests were honored. We tried non-binding arbitration, but an agreement could not be met. Seven years had passed. Seven years! Wow. Numerous depositions had been taken, and I was vigorously preparing for trial. The mayor of the city asked to meet with me.

I reluctantly agreed. I let him know my expectations. Oh. Oh. I was diagnosed with early stage breast cancer in mid-December. My family was extremely concerned about my mental and physical well-being. Yeah. I did not want to treat my health casually, but to stop the legal process would have been even more detrimental to my state of mind. So we consulted with doctors and a careful decision was made to hold off on the subsequent surgery and radiation therapy until after the trial. Holy shit. Can you believe that? So in the midst of all of this, she's been horribly raped.

She's been treated like a liar. She's been accused of lying, of making this whole thing up. She's been further victimized. Then finally, she gets— She's living in fear, I assume, this whole time. Seven years have now passed. Her attacker has not victimized. Yep. Then finally she gets living in fear. Yes. Yes. Seven years have now passed.

Her attacker has not been caught. Yep. And now she's finally going forward with this lawsuit and then she gets diagnosed with fucking breast cancer. Good grief. Yeah. So she makes the decision to postpone her medical treatment so that she can be present for this trial. She continues on. On the afternoon before the trial, the city offered a financial settlement and a half-hearted plan to work with me on my demands.

Everyone told me I should take it, but it didn't seem right. This was my life and my reputation. And they had been severely damaged. They had pushed me around for seven years. And I needed the trial to set the record straight. Oh, my God, I love it. Yeah. And so she decided to go to trial. Go, Donna, go. Yeah. Yes. Again, I'm sorry to John. Finally, in July of 2001, more than seven years. What did I say? Did I say January 2001?

Did I say July 2001? I pay so little attention to you. Anyway, it's January 2001. In case I said July, it's January. Anyway, Donna and John finally go to court. Okay, so they have sued the city of Waterbury. They have sued Douglas and Robert Moran for negligence. In the case, they are simply identified as John and Jane Doe.

At this point, they are still not publicly known that these are the people. I mean, a lot of people know, but. Yeah, we get it. You get it? Yes, please. Go on. My God. But they knew that this was going to be an absolute uphill battle because there was a critical piece of evidence that they needed that had just disappeared what was it that tape that lieutenant moran had made when he accused donna of lying and

said they had foolproof yeah um yeah i wonder what happened to that just it just went missing yeah maybe there was like a recording malfunction and it never recorded at all. Yeah. Oopsies. Fudge strikes. Or maybe like it had just been misplaced. Who knows? Mm-hmm. So it's really just Donna's word against the word of these police detectives. What? These police detectives.

What? I think that the fact that the recording is now missing is a point in her favor. Well, the Morans denied losing the tape. Well, then where is it? You know, who knows? It's not here, but they didn't lose it. It's not on them. Well, it absolutely is.

That's police property and they're the police. They're the ones who. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's on them. Yeah. The trial was long. It lasted like a month.

Oh, my God. Yeah. Donna was on the stand for a couple days of it. So Donna's attorneys, because she'd been accused of lying, that was the basis of like the city and the and the two police detectives like their case. Don lied about this whole thing. She's still lying about this whole thing. That was the basis. Yeah.

Yep. She made this whole thing up. She really was having an affair. I'm shocked that that I know tactic they took. So am I. I would think it would be much easier to just argue like, hey, sometimes investigations are messy. Sometimes we make— And she's lying now.

This didn't happen the way she said it happened. Like, it'd be way easier to—like, we didn't accuse her. You know, sometimes you have to go down an uncomfortable line of questioning. Well, that's what I thought they would do. Like, why wouldn't you— According to what I've read, it's not what they did. They said she lied the whole time. She's lying now. This woman was never raped.

Oh, my God. So Donna's attorneys have to convince jurors that the rape actually happened. Right. Number one. And then convince them that she was treated badly. Yes. Intentionally. Yes.

By the police department. Oh, my God. Intentionally. Yes. By the police department. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so Donna had to get on the stand and talk about all of the things that the police had argued were the things that made her, made them believe she was lying. She had to talk about why she called that, the attacker, a gentleman on the 911 call. She said, it's just how I speak. Yeah.

It's just what I said. She had to talk about why she left her children in the house when she went to go get help. to go get help. She had to talk about why she'd walked around with those pantyhose still tied to her for more than an hour after police arrived.

Because they fucking told her to. Also, more than an hour, that's not that long. It's not. It's not. After you've been through something like that? Yeah.

And she had to explain how she couldn't know how the rapist got in her house that day. And she said, if the police can't figure it out, how can I be expected to figure it out? That is a great response. Yes. Yes. She said the whole thing was incredibly trying. Yeah. And then in the back of her mind, she has these thoughts about her cancer diagnosis as well. And is she doing irreparable harm to herself by delaying her treatment? It was horrible. She said that the defense attorneys were female and that they were.

Oh, that was a choice. Yep. They were especially brutal with her. She said they questioned everything from her motherhood to the terminology she used on the 911 call to her injuries. They even went so far as to have a female do a demonstration in court cutting phone lines to show that Donna could have been capable of cutting her own phone lines. Okay. I don't think there was any debate over that. It's a phone line.

It's a phone line. Debate over that. It's a phone line. It's a phone line. We brought in this weak little woman to do this job. Yeah. Donna said that she had to sit there in court and watch as one by one Waterbury police officers were called to the stand and she watched them just lie about her. and she watched them just lie about her. But two officers came forward and testified for Donna.

Okay, O'Leary and O'Leary's buddy. So the first was Detective George Lascardis. So he actually happened to be a family friend. He'd known the Palombas for quite some time. And he said that he had told one of the initial investigating officers when they were like headed down this path about that Donna was lying and having an affair. He said he had stopped them and said, you guys are going the wrong direction. That is not this woman. This is not. You got to get back on track here.

So he testified to that. And then Detective Neil O'Leary took the stand. He's a sergeant at this point. So he got on the stand and he said that he had investigated this and he did not find a shred of evidence to support that Donna was involved in any kind of affair. that Donna was involved in any kind of affair. And he said, quote, anyone I talked to said that she was one of the finest people that they had ever known, including clergy, friends and family. He talked a lot about how his investigation finds that like Donna didn't tell any lies here. This investigation was mishandled. And we're doing our best now to try and investigate it and solve it yeah dr henry lee testified oh my god yeah and he talked about proper procedure for securing a crime scene

did he say it all sassy like that yes i think he spit a little bit too when he said it gross Oh, gross. Dr. Lee, get it together. And then Donna also had an expert in post-traumatic stress disorder testify on her behalf. And he testified about the emotional damage that the police had inflicted on Donna. Yeah. The jury deliberated for five days in this case. Wow. And finally, on January— deliberated for five days in this case wow and finally on january the gender breakdown on this i don't i don't okay finally on january 31st 2001 the jury found in donna's favor oh my god yeah they awarded her 190 0000,000 in damages.

She should get more, but OK. So much more. It's funny. On the Dateline episode, when they ask John about it, John's like, I don't even remember what the settlement was. It was never about money. Yeah. But they never got their apology. And that's what Donna really wanted.

Yeah. The city paid for the damages. Even if she'd gotten the apology. Yeah, it would have been a forced apology. It wouldn't have been. It wouldn't have been sincere. Yeah. By this point, the captain had retired, but his brother was allowed to keep his job. He wasn't forced to resign or anything.

Oh, good. That's who you want to keep on the force. Yep. Yeah. Eventually, he was promoted to captain. Of course he was. And then moved out of state. Can we move this train along?

I want to know. I want to get to the part where they solve this. Oh, you think they're going to solve it? Yes. You said 11 years. Oh, very good. They do solve it eventually. So they win their suit.

That's wonderful. But Donna was not in any mood to celebrate. Obviously, now she's had to go get her breast cancer treatment done. So she gets through all of that. I mean, just more time is passing. Yeah, let's get to 11 years. Stop it. Well, you told us it's your fault.

You said 11 years. This is interesting. So even though Donna wins her suit, okay, she wins this settlement. You know, she really thought that this would be the thing that would maybe change how people were talking about this case in town. Like all these people are talking about, well, Jane Doe, she's made this whole thing up. She's just having an affair, whatever. just having an affair, whatever. And so then, like, the newspaper in town, based on how they are reporting on this case,

you would not know that Donna won, first of all. And they are saying just terrible things about her. What are they saying? You know, I couldn't find exactly what they printed about it, but there's some interview with another reporter, and he says, like, they were just not clearing anything up. They were allowing the speculation to continue and almost backing the speculation up rather than reporting that no the jury found in her favor and maybe this deserves looking at again maybe this should maybe people should change their minds on this whole thing and so donna was really disheartened

by that she really thought like okay this is going to come out. People are going to know that I didn't make this up, that I haven't been lying about this whole thing. And that's not what happened. The reporting that was done that she didn't like was in the Republican American, which is like their main paper. So there's this independent paper called the Waterbury Observer. And that's just like a one man show. He's like the. He is the observer. He is the observer. And that's just like a one man show. He's like the. He is the observer. He is the observer.

And his name's John Murray. And so she reaches out to John Murray and she says she wants to tell her story. And so she sits down and does this very long like four hour interview with John Murray. He says that like his exposure to this case had been what he'd read in the Republican American and whatever. And he was shocked to hear Donna tell her story. He didn't know her as Donna. She never identified herself. He knew her as Jane Doe and he reported the case as Jane Doe. But he said there was never a moment that she was anything less than genuine. And he didn't understand how people could hear her, like how the police could have heard her and thought that she was making this up.

He said she cried throughout the interview. He said he cried throughout the interview. And then afterwards, he put out this 11-page piece on Jane Doe's story. 11-page piece on Jane Doe's story. And it did some to let people, you know, see that maybe this is not what we have thought it was. Maybe this is real. Maybe this poor woman really was attacked and then further victimized.

Okay. And Donna said she was really pleased with the coverage. She found it very healing that it changed the public opinion on this whole case some. But I mean, it's 2001. It's 2002 now. Where is your fast forward button? I am telling you that you got to drag it out because it was dragged out. No, you don't. No, you don't. You are the captain of this ship. You don't have to tell us about an interview she did for four hours and how it was 11 pages and all this stuff. Yes, I do. Yes, I do have to tell you all of that.

I want to hear. How rude of you to say that. No, I want this solved. As if you would be any different. You'd be on the edge of your seat. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's 2004 now.

This case is cold as ice. It's in the deep freeze, as Dateline put it. Oh, God. Did they really say that? They really did. They really did. Dateline, you silly billies. But Neil O'Leary could not let this case go.

I think by this time he's the chief of police. He better be. I think he is. He's earned it. He eventually becomes the chief of police. Did he kick that dumb fucker out? I think so. Okay.

Eventually he becomes the mayor of Waterbury. He's still, I believe, still the mayor of Waterbury. Good for him. Yes, absolutely. But first, he solves this case. He solves this case. He does. He does solve this case.

Yes, so let's get to it. This is the trouble with telling me a Kristen story. Exactly. I'm too invested. Okay, so it's the summer of 2004. Detective O'Leary is now Police Chief O'Leary. And he can't stop thinking about Donna's case. Like it's the case that just kills him.

He has to solve this case. I don't know that police chiefs are solving a lot of cases anymore. Like aren't they – don't they just like sit in an office? If you stall for one more second – I'm not stalling! If you stall for one more second. I'm not stalling! So when he starts, he gets a hunch about something. Okay, so it starts with an incident report.

Yes. A 21-year-old woman who worked for a local roofing company made a report that her supervisor had tried to sexually assault her. So her supervisor and her had been out bidding roofing jobs. It's the guy who was weird with Donna's sister. It's not. OK. All right. So she's out with her supervisor bidding roofing jobs.

OK. Super normal. They did this a lot. But at some point, they're in her supervisor's parents neighborhood and he's like hey i'm watching my parents house they're out of town do you mind if we go in and just check it out real quick and she's like yeah that's fine and so she goes in the house with them the house is all empty it's all closed up blinds curtains everything's all closed up and he like pushes her down on the couch and he tries to sexually assault her. She kicks him, pushes him away, runs out of the house,

loses a fucking shoe in the process of it, runs, hides, calls her boyfriend and has her boyfriend come pick her up. Well, that is terrifying. And then goes and makes this report. And so this has

happened and Detective O'Leary is looking over this police report. And the name on it of her supervisor is John Regan. John Regan is the man that she is saying assaulted her or attempted to assault her. I think assaulted her. Yeah. And so he's like, John Regan, John. I know that name.

He's like, I know John Regan. They grew up together. They're about the same age. They grew up in the same neighborhood. Oh, shit. And they're like, holy cow. I can't believe. Detective O'Leary's like, this is not the John Regan I know.

Like, this seems nutso bananas. Sorry, I just spat everywhere. This is common police terminology, Kristen. I don't expect you to know all the jargon. Don't you wish that in some like police dramas they used ridiculous language?

Yes! So he's like, this guy is married, he has kids, like I knew this guy as a kid. Like, whatever. And so, like, a couple days go by, and he's just thinking about this incident report, this incident report. John Regan attacks his—

Okay, but somebody's on this also, right? I mean, not really. Like, he wasn't arrested initially. I think he was then. And then, like, maybe they were—he said the whole thing was made up and that this woman, like, he'd had to discipline this woman at work and she was mad at him. And so he, she'd made the whole thing up and, like, nothing was really happening with it. Great. That's really awesome.

Okay. That's awesome. Cool. They've learned a lot. And so then they did bring him in again and he, you know, tells that same story. And they're like, okay, so how do you explain her running out of the house? You know, she lost a whole fucking shoe shoe she had to hide behind a building like she made all of that up and at that point john regan said he'd like an attorney and so that ended the the uh

interrogation at that point but based on him asking for an attorney and her story being very believable, they decided to pursue an arrest warrant for John Regan in relation to this incident. So O'Leary's driving home from work, thinking about this case. He's like, John Regan, John Regan. Regan. Regan. The stag party. The stag party in 1993. Shut up. The day that Donna was raped was for somebody named Regan.

It like just popped in his head. 11 years later. Oh my God. And so he's like, so he goes back to all of his notes on the investigation. And sure enough, it was John Regan's cousin's stag party. So he looks over the list to see if John Regan would have been there. And he just starts formulating this theory in his head that surely this is not the first time John Regan has tried to attack someone. He was at that stag party that night.

Does he know the Palombas? And so he goes and he talks to John and Donna and John Palomba's like, no, no, I know John Regan. I have known John Regan for years. We grew up together. If I gave you my list of my top 10 friends as a kid, he would have made the list. Oh, no. Our families know each other. He's done roofing work on my house. We had him out to the beach. We made him dinner.

He knows. John Regan knows the Palombas well. Oh. And so Detective O'Leary asks John and Donna if there's any way. And they're like, no, there's just no way. And they call him Rocky. John Regan is Rocky to them. Right.

That's like the nickname. I mean, they know him so well. Yes, they know him so well. They know him by a nickname. No way. No way this is Rocky. So Detective O'Leary gets this arrest warrant issued for John Regan. They bring him in in relation to these charges for this assault on his employees, co-worker, whatever.

And he asks him if he'll give a DNA sample. He says no. He says yes. He's bold. He says yes. He voluntarily gives a DNA sample. And they run it through the lab. And it comes back.

And Detective O'Leary calls John and Donna and asks them if they'll come down to the station. Oh, God. And they're like, yeah, of course. Of course. So they come down. And they're, like, really nervous. Yeah. Going down.

Like, what is this? And they're like, is it possible? Is this possible that they got a DNA match on this finally? And they walk in and they sit down with Neil O'Leary. And the fucking DNA is a match. Wow. Donna was raped by John Regan, her husband's childhood friend. Yep.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yep. They couldn't believe it. They were stunned. And then they started thinking about how many times they'd interacted with John Regan after Donna had been attacked. He'd done work for them,

and they'd taken him to the beach. Oh, I'm sure he inserted himself into their lives. It had been less. Like, he had kind of moved away, kind of distanced himself. Sure, I bet he did. He'd come to certain things and yeah. Yeah. Donna said the idea of that made her just absolutely sick to her stomach.

Oh, yeah. That he must have loved that. I'm sure he did. They have no idea that it's me. And here I am. Yep. Ugh. Yep. Rough news, though, because the statute of limitations on rape is up.

That's so ridiculous. And so they can't charge him with that. So they actually charge him with kidnapping. Oh. Yes. Because he tied her up and stuff. Okay. Oh. Yes. Because he tied her up and stuff. So, yeah. Yeah.

But even still, in September of 2004, John Regan is charged with unlawful restraint for the attack on his co-worker. And then a month later, he is charged with kidnapping for Donna's case because the statute of limitations is up on rape. It's stupid. It's fucking awesome. But he posted bail. No big deal. He's just out living his fucking life. Okay, but he's got to be a serial rapist, right?

I mean, surely there are other stories. Donna was terrified that John Regan was just, like, out living his life awaiting trial. Like, she's been terrified for years that her attacker is going to come back. And now her attacker has a name and is someone that she knows. And he's just out on bond living it up. He's out on bond just, you know, fucking doing whatever the fuck he wants. Now it's the fall of 2005. And enter a cute little Walgreens photo tech.

I don't know that any of that's true. I just know it's a Walgreens photo tech. I'm imagining that she's very cute and about 19 years old and like. You sound like a creep right now. No, I'm describing myself. I know you are. I'm just telling you how it sounds to someone who doesn't know that you're describing yourself. I apologize.

I was describing myself as a 19-year-old phototech in 2005, which is what I was at Walgreens. Anyway, this phototech is— I'd like to remind you that right now you're damn near 40. That's rude. I'm 37. How fucking dare you? Yeah, which is damn near 40. So it's weird to be like, that's cute. A teenage photo tech.

Okay, that's not quite how I said it. Anyway, this Walgreens photo tech develops these photos for John Regan and is so uncomfortable by the content of their photos. They are all of young, pretty women who clearly had no idea they were being photographed. Ew. Oh, God. And so she calls the police. Good. Yeah. And they're like, yeah, okay,

we're gonna up your charges, John, and we're now also charging you with stalking. Okay. Yeah. And so then they're, like, working to working to like take back his bond or whatever, you know, but they didn't do it in time. What does that mean? On May 31st, 2005, a 17-year-old high school senior was attacked outside of her high school, leaving cross-country practice. Oh, my God. It was 5.30 p.m.

She just got done, I don't know, fucking running, I guess. Right? We can't assume. We have no idea what goes on at cross-country practice. So she's walking to her car and she notices as she's walking to her car in the parking lot that there is a van parked really close to her car. Right. And so she's like kind of squeezing through to get to her car. And then she notices that there's a man in the backseat of the van. Oh, God.

And she's like, that's fucking weird. Okay. Is he like laying down? No, he's just like sitting in the backseat of the van. Oh, God. And so she like keeps her eye on that a little bit. She throws the stuff in the back of her car, closes it, and then goes to open the driver's side door of her car.

And as she does that, she heard the van door slide open behind her. She said when she heard that van door slide open, she just knew. She just knew that man was going to attack her. But there was, like, a part of her, too, that was like, okay, maybe there's just, like, a parent parent here picking up their kid. Like maybe I need to calm down for a second. And so she did. She like took a breath and then he grabbed her. He grabbed one hand around her waist and one hand like up around her mouth and she, and grabbed her and tried to pull her into the van. She started screaming and kicking and she pushed back on her car against him and somehow got free wow and a teacher a coach whatever happened to be at the school still and saw it all fucking

happened oh my god so he goes running out and he's yelling and like he's trying to get the attention all of a sudden like the the guy in the van lets go, closes the door. The van takes off out of there. This 17-year-old girl is still like standing there screaming, like trying to figure out what the fuck just happened. And this other teacher, his name's Ray Harrington, this teacher or coach or whatever. He gets on the phone immediately and calls 911 and he starts relaying the license plate number on the van. Nice.

Oh my gosh. Okay. At the same time, another coach or teacher or whatever is out getting in his car and the other coach yells to him like this guy just tried to abduct someone and he takes off. He starts following the van. Hell yeah, with an X. Oh, my God.

He follows the van. He's like, the van's driving erratically. He's following it. The other guy's on the phone with the police still. And then the second guy, he gets on the phone with the police, too. And he's letting them know where they are. Finally, the van, like, pulls off and gets in a parking lot. And, like, the coach guy jumps out.

And he's like, what the fuck are you doing? He's like, why are you following what the fuck are you doing oh god why are you following me what what are you doing like why are you even following me right now like what is this he's like you just tried to fucking abduct a teenager well if that was wrong then i didn't know it and he's like the statute of limitations has run out on that it's been nearly 15 minutes he's like well i was just i was just making phone calls in the back of my van. What are you talking about? I'm just a totally normal guy.

Yeah, I was just making phone calls. Who sits in a high school parking lot in the back of my van. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah. He's just there making calls. He's trying to get directions somewhere. Just this whole thing is just a crazy misunderstanding.

He needs help, actually. He opened the van door because he was going to get out and get back in the front seat now that he had the directions, and he just startled her, and she totally overreacted. No big deal. Goodness gracious. Yeah. I'm in town

for a rapist convention. Yeah, exactly. So, this guy manages to keep this man in the van there until police arrive. Police show up. They take this guy into custody. Do you want to guess who it is? Do you want to guess?

Do you want to guess who the man in the van is? It's Rocky. Yeah, it's John Regan. It's John Regan. You know what else they find in the van? A gun, nylons. You're close. A tarp.

Rope that had been pre-tied with slip knots. Oh my God. Oh my God. A camera with a bunch of pictures of women who don't know they're being photographed, including John Regan's 21-year-old co-worker he is charged with attacking. Yeah. But she made that all up, right? They also found a pitchfork, a rake, and a syringe with antihistamines in it.

Fuck. Yep. So it turns out that John Regan was in town working on a house in the area, like a family member's house or something. And so police also go to that house. Dear Lord. in the area, like a family member's house or something. And so police also go to that house.

Dear Lord. They find that it is like all locked up, all the windows and blinds and curtains are all closed. And it is like set up for him to have taken this, like snag this girl, tie her up, drug her, take her back to this house. Oh my God. And what? Murder her? I mean, probably.

Probably. If he's got a tarp. Yep. You didn't say he had a shovel, but I mean. A pitchfork. Okay, yeah. And a rake. I want to know what this guy has gotten away with.

Exactly. Yeah. How terrible. Exactly. Yeah. How John Regan's attorney later said this whole thing was just a misunderstanding. Oh, yeah. You know, he was in Saratoga Springs to fix up a couple of houses and those items in his van. Those were merely the tools of his trade. Kristen, he's a rapist by profession. Oh, my God. Oh, my gosh.

So he's arrested in Saratoga Springs. And once they run him in the system, they're like, holy shit, this guy's awaiting trial in Connecticut on charges of kidnapping and unlawful restraint. Oh, so then they found that camera with all the pictures on there and there were current pictures of the 21 year old co-worker that he had. Yeah. And so they said that he was they believed he was stalking her even after his arrest while he was out on bond. Oh, great.

He was continuing to stalk his victim. I'm OK. I hate everything about this. So John Regan was charged with attempted kidnapping in Saratoga County, and this time he was held without bond. Why? Yeah. So three days later, which was John Regan's 49th birthday, he tried to die by suicide in his jail cell and was unsuccessful. On July 14th, 2006, John Regan pled guilty to attempted.

Nope. Attempted? Attempted. You attempted to say the word right. I did. That's correct to attempted kidnapping in new york and was sentenced to 12 years in prison is that all that is so infuriating to me i don't think that's enough time at all and then on october 26 2006 john Regan entered an Alford plea.

Oh, fuck off. For his charges in Connecticut. And he was sentenced to 15 years in prison to run concurrently with his New York years. I reject it. And I know the courts are listening. I know. And what we say takes precedence. I hate it. So I'd like you to keep him

longer please i'll let you know when i am comfortable with him getting out yeah so law enforcement officials in all three states new york connecticut and massachusetts i believe some something what led them to believe that he'd also been operating like maybe doing work in mass Massachusetts as well. I'm sure he was creepy everywhere. Everywhere he went. Yeah, so they investigated John Regan to see if they could link him to any unsolved crimes. They weren't able to.

I don't think that means he was not guilty of them. No, it's because the women all made it up in all those other situations. Yeah. other situations. Yeah. The Waterbury Police Department has since instituted new sexual assault policies and procedures

written with Donna Palumba's help. Police Chief O'Leary said that the force has learned from its mistakes and that they're trying to be better. Here's why I'm going to say that I don't think that's true.

Okay. On episode 203, I covered the case of Tiana Notice. She was a young woman who was being stalked by an ex-boyfriend and she lived in one Connecticut town and worked in Waterbury, Connecticut. So she got a restraining order in the town that she lived in, Plainville, I believe it was. But then he was also stalking her at work. And so she went to the Waterbury police and she showed them her restraining order and they told her they thought it was fake and they sent her away. And then she was murdered by her stalker.

Yep. Same police department. Yet you don't fix problems this big without significant intervention. Yep. Yeah. Oh, that's disgusting. Yep. Yeah. Oh, that's disgusting. Yep. Yeah.

So back to John Regan. John Regan was sentenced to 15 years in Connecticut, 12 years in New York to run concurrently. So essentially he would serve his 12 years in New York and then be returned to Connecticut to serve his three years there. That was how Donna understood that it would work out. But he's going to get out early. Well, so here's the deal. Connecticut does not do, and I don't know the exact specifics of it, they don't do credit for time, like they don't do good behavior time. So he should have had to serve his full sentence. But they determined in August of 2017 that he that John Regan had served all of his time in New York. And then when they went to transfer him to Connecticut, there are certain credits of time served that he qualified for. That meant that his time in Connecticut was already

done as well. So he was just going to be free to go. And this terrified Donna. He's just going to be back here doing, he's clearly a repeat offender. Right. And he's just going to be back in my town and I'm just going to continue to live in fear. Right. And he's just going to be back in my town and I'm just going to continue to live in fear.

So Donna spoke to all of the officials in Connecticut at the Department of Corrections, at the attorney general's office to see if anything could be done. And it was completely out of their hands. His sentence would be complete in August of 2017 without him ever spending a day in jail in Connecticut. But in New York, they have a rarely used law called the Sex Offender Civil Management Law. So this is specifically for repeat offenders of sexual crimes. The court can determine that they have a mental abnormality that makes them a danger to society. So in order for that to happen, they have to go before a jury in a closed trial and the state has to argue all of the reasons that they believe that this person does have a mental abnormality that makes them a danger to society. And the defense gets to present all the reasons that they

think they do not. And then the jury decides if they believe that person has a mental abnormality that makes them a danger to society. So in 2017, when John Regan's sentence was up in New York, a judge ordered that he be held under this law until a further determination could be made about his mental abnormality. And it looks to me, this is kind of confusing to me because that ruling was made in 2017

and he was held in custody. The trial for the mental abnormality did not take place until November of 2021. Huh. Okay. That seems like a long time to be able to hold somebody. Are you sure he was held that? Yes.

I'm 100% positive he was held that entire time. All right. Huh. He remained in custody in New York prison. And then this trial happened in November of 2021. And a jury found that John Regan had a mental abnormality relating to his sexual crimes and that he was likely to reoffend if he was released. And so they determined that in November of 2021. And then in November of 2022, a judge issued a written decision saying that John Regan must be confined in a secure treatment facility in New York state where he can receive treatment until he is reevaluated at some later date. OK.

20 states currently have a law like this. I have never heard. I have never heard of it. Kansas and Missouri both have the same law. Huh. Yeah. It must not be you. I have never heard of time. Wow. Yeah. Donna started the Jane Doe No More organization following all of this when she decided to come out with who she was and what she had been through. And she has become an advocate. The mission statement for Jane Doe No More says they are empowering survivors of sexual crimes to find their voice, advance their healing, and educate others. We envision a society that no longer spreads doubt, instills fear, casts shame, or places blame on survivors of sexual crimes.

Donna's organization was instrumental in getting legislation passed that removed the statute of limitations in sexual assault cases in Connecticut. Amazing. Amazing. And that is the story of a home invasion. Holy shit. So is the theory. I mean, I guess he really was at that stag party. And he was really at that stag party.

And that's how he found out that John was at – That's believed to be how – That really is believed to be how it was found out. It seems like way too much – too opportunistic to me. It seems like this had to be more planned than that. But maybe it wasn't. But here's – okay, now, this is just me spitballing here. If he's the predator that i think he is always prepared

yes right yeah yeah that's the thing that makes that believable to me you see that he's just always prepared to do this you see the cross the high school cross-country team is out there yeah doing their thing well here let me park my van next to a car. Yep. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder if he was kind of always prepared to agree. Yeah, I think that's very likely. Gross. Yeah. Isn't that nuts?

I can't believe it's i just watched a documentary like several weeks ago about this phenomenon of like women reporting sexual assaults to the police yeah and then being accused by police and being liars and And worse than that, sometimes women are jailed for it. I mean, it is. Yeah. It's unbelievable. Yes. And I think a lot of it comes down to this is tough. This is going to be hard to solve.

Here's an easy way to solve it. You're full of shit. Yep. here's an easy way to solve it. You're full of shit. Yep. And if you're full of shit and your face is in the media as having lied about this, well, how many people are going to come forward to the police after they see something like that?

Yeah. Even after John Regan was charged with Donna's attack, people still were like, do you think that's for real or were they really just having an affair? And she's really like. It wasn't until he was arrested in New York for attempting to abduct this kid, this teenager, that people were like, holy shit, can you believe this? Yeah. Yeah. Did he just put up a good front or like what? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, I think so. He seemed like a family oriented guy, like friendly to everybody. Yeah. What did he look like? Was he really? No. He's like just – he's got gray hair. He's balding on top.

Well, no. I meant like was he strong? Yeah. I mean he was strong. He was a physical laborer. He was a roofer. Yeah. Okay.

That makes sense. Oh, you're going to show me? Yeah. I got him here for you. Yikes. Okay. That denim, denim, denim look, is that prison issue? I think that's probably prison issue.

All right, then I won't roast him for that. That was very good. Totally a Kristen case, right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Very much a Kristen case. I thought I was going to have to kick your ass when you were like tiptoeing through the

story, not giving me the answers I deserve. I liked it. But I forgive you. Thank you. Oh, you were going to forgive me and now you're taking it back? Yeah, now I'm not. Now that I know you enjoyed it but I forgive thank you oh you were you were gonna forgive me and now you're taking it back yeah now I'm not

now that I know you enjoyed it I did when you told me about that fucking interview with the journalist what you didn't

want to hear about that it went nowhere no it's like you know it's a thing she did for herself so that you know okay tell me that later

it's part of her healing process. I'm glad, but I wanted to catch... I wanted to catch the rapist. Well, we got the rapist. And also, Donna is healing and helping others heal as well. That's very good. It is wonderful.

Next time, though, I am going to have to ask you to skip to Malou, my darling. I've got no time. No time to hear about Donna's healing process, huh? She's also cancer-free. It's wonderful. Oh, well, now I'm a double asshole. No other body parts on me. Just one big asshole.

I just want to remind you that you accused your husband of being the rapist at the beginning. Yeah, that's why I said double asshole. Also, may I remind you that you accused your husband of being the rapist at the beginning. Yeah, that's why I said double asshole. I feel terrible now. That's a real brandy move. Well, you know,

I had to bring some brandy energy to the case. You know. And you know what? All I can think about now is how we need to do an ad. Do it. Do it. Do it.

Should we take some questions from our Discord? No. Oh, okay. I guess we'll just stare at each other then. I like to be unexpected. You would love to stare at me, wouldn't you? Today I did an arm workout from YouTube. Yeah, what kind of arm workout?

I felt like the lady was staring into my soul. Yeah? The whole time? And kind of smiling. Not the whole time, but like I did get a little. Just a little bit too much? Well, but she was very beautiful. So you were fine with it?

Yeah, honestly. I'm just trying to be honest with you. If she'd been less good looking, I might have been like, this is creepy. But, you know, she was so good looking. I was like, well, it's natural that she feels like she needs to look deeply into my eyes right now as we move our arms about. Yeah. How was your arm workout? Was it good?

It was crazy. Yeah? Okay. You got jello arms now? This isn't going to sound like anything. No, it's going to sound, well, I mean,

I don't imagine your arms are going to make a lot of noise, but. No, no, no. God. Ba-dum-bum. Is this revenge for my anal swab joke?

Okay, so this is what she had me do. Okay. I'm acting like she's my personal trainer. She's got like millions of views on YouTube. Okay, you stick your arms out like this, right? And she tells you, okay, we're going to do this for eight minutes.

And the one rule is you're going to hold my arms out for eight minutes? Well, we're going to do a whole lot more than that, bitch. Look, I'm done. No, no, don't check out yet. Okay, so you got your arms out. Okay. And she's like, okay, the deal is we're doing this for eight minutes and you can't drop your arms ever. The fuck?

No, I failed already. And so then she's like, she has you. What? You got cuppies? So we do these little cuppies. Uh-huh. And then, you know, we're doing this, we're doing this. Oh, we switch it up.

Okay, okay, okay. And then we start doing slappies. Uh-huh. And like. Okay, yeah, I'm digging it. And it just goes on for eight minutes. And it's terrible. Yeah, it sounds terrible.

But she mesmerizes you with her eyeballs. How do her arms look? She got just ripped arms. Even better than mine. Is it possible? No, it's not. I was just trying to be nice. Is it possible? No, it's not. I was just trying to be nice.

Anyhow, let's go to the Discord and answer some questiones. Let's do it. From our patrons. To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And then we'll, you know, ask some questions. We'll ask some questions? Answer some questions. My goodness. Oh, oh, Lazy Lesbian Biz wants to know, Kristen is a fellow runner with Tiggle Bitties.

Do you have any sports bra recommendations for something that won't send the girls flying every time I try and run? Can't seem to find anything that actually works. Okay, here's the thing. What? Well, okay. Don't make that face at me. I'm just really concerned where this is going. My problem is I've got

a very long torso. Okay, so I can't just grab... What? What does that have to do with your titties? I'm about to tell you. Okay. So I can't just get those sports bras. Get to the titties. That don't have. See, this is how I felt during your story.

First, let me tell you about a couple different newspapers in our local area. And then I'll tell you. So anyway, because of my long torso, I have to have adjustable strappies. Okay. It's not an optional thing. They've got to be adjustable. But on a lot of sports bras, they're like, oh, you don't need it. I've never had a sports bra with adjustable strappies.

Well, that's because you've got a normal-sized torso. Congratulations. Normal torso, not very big titties. All right. Anyway. Also, I'm real small through here. My rib cage. Delicate. Dainty little rib cage. It's delicate.

Dainty little rib cage. We get it. Huge tits. Okay. So, you know, it's a problem. And I'm going to say, oh, my God, maybe 10 years ago I was at an outlet mall. Lord, are you still wearing a no bra from 10 years ago no i would but that thing fell apart come on daryl so i was at an outlet mall in branson missouri it was a champion

sports bra okay it just fit perfectly it did did the job. Okay. You've been chasing that high ever since. Here's the thing. I don't even like how it looks. Okay. But it just does the job. It does the job. Okay. Okay.

And I don't even think it does a great job. What the fuck? Well, I hate that sports bra shopping. So anyway, I wore that thing until it was just a shred of its former self. I literally got rid of it in 2020. Okay, don't make that face. I'm telling you the truth. And so anyhow, I ordered a bunch more online.

I'm the only one who wants these things. I mean, nobody wants these ugly bras. Right. But I've got like 20 of them. You do. Okay, so Champion Sports Bra all the way. Does it have a name? I'm sure it does.

I don't know. Okay. I don't really recommend it. You don't even like it that much, but you have 20 of them. I am just saying, go to your nearest like it that much, but you have 20 of them. I am just saying, go to your nearest Branson Outlet mall. Sorry I asked. This is your fault,

lazy lesbian biz. Find your one bra that you kind of like and then buy a million of it. Oh my gosh, Lord. Okay, moving on.

There's two questions that are very similar right by each other. Richard N. Balls asks, how are you doing? And Bad Bad Real Brad asks, Brandy, are you feeling better after seeing our support? And the answer is, I'm doing wonderful. And yes, I am feeling so much better after all of the support. I mean, the support we have gotten is honestly unbelievable. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, probably, if I'm being really honest. Mjordan1221, not a chance I'm asking this fucking question now. What is it?

You have to. Kristen, what undies do you run in? My thongs be chafing. Oh, okay. Yep. All right. Lord, do you have an answer for this? She doesn't really like them, but she's been wearing the same ones for 20 years.

Let me tell you something. I gave up on thongs long ago. I decided long ago. You don't ever wear a thong? I have a lot of them. Yeah. Because I've invested in big thong. Yeah.

So I'm not going to let those puppies go. Right. But no, I like a lace around the band type of situation. Oh, yeah. That's what I got, too. Because it doesn't cut in. Yep. That's what I got. Yep. Yeah. I do a cheeky, cheeky cut.

I'm not a big cheeky cut gal. Well, let me tell you. When you got cheeks like this lady, we might have all underwear so you put those on and you're like i'm meant to do this i'll tell you something i um i'm not buying underwear on amazon again let me tell you that yeah burned did you i feel like they're going to burn me. They looked really cute online. Did you return them? No.

Why not? I took the L. They're underwear. You shouldn't return underwear. Yes, return them. No, no. Did you wear them? Yes. Oh, all right.

No, you can't return the underwear you wore. That's how I figured out that I don't like them. Okay. First of all, I can't tell the front from the back. How are they cut? Well, I kind of thought they'd be cute, like a little high cut thing. Oh, you got granny panties? No.

Oh. They're just weird. They can't even be described. But they're a real thick cotton, like winter's a coming. What? You can play in all underwear. I mean, it feels that way, so I don't run in those. Obviously.

You start a fire. That would smell terrible. That would smell terrible. Ooh, Les Lemon asks, Brandy, any thoughts on Leslie Van Houten being released from prison? Okay, Leslie Van Houten was one of the, quote, Manson girls. She was convicted of the two murders of Lino and Rosemary LaBianca. So that's the second night of murders, the Manson family murders. She has served 53 years in prison. She's been approved for parole,

I don't know, six or seven times, I think, and has been blocked every time by the governor of California. And this time the governor said he would not interfere. And so she was released from prison yesterday. I actually think it's the right decision. She served a lot of time and she is very remorseful about what she did. And she's done a lot of work on herself to figure out how she got involved in a cult, how she became under the control of a cult leader. She was very young. Yeah, she was like 17 when it happened. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's absolutely the right decision.

I know that's controversial, but I think she's served her time. And I think life is going to be really hard for her when she's spent that much time behind bars. I don't even know how you would begin to live life. You'd try to live, laugh, love, but you might not be able to. You might not be able to. And that's why you'd have to get the sign to remind you. Yeah. You fake it until you make it. Could she borrow yours? I don't have one. Not on you. Ooh, okay. This is a good question for you, Kristen. Okay.

Oopsies Fudge Stripes wants to know, is a Costco membership worth it for a single person? Hmm. You've come to the right place, my darling. Yeah. It depends. Do you enjoy frozen foods? That really is a good question. And produce. Produce is the thing that I think is such a good deal at Costco. Yeah. And some of the produce is in a reasonable size.

Yeah. Like I we buy cantaloupe there a lot and it's's like you get two cantaloupes for like four bucks or something. Grapes are really reasonably priced. Strawberries, blueberries, those are the things that we buy all the time because those are London's favorite fruits. Listen, I'm never going to tell anyone not to get the Costco membership. Okay. They might revoke your super fan card. Oh, my gosh. Okay, so you know how they're cracking down on memberships.

Yes! Which, as they should. Yeah, that's right. You don't have a card. Get the hell out of there. Let's get the fuck out. Okay. Well, the picture on my card is from when I first got.

Yeah, so is mine. I don't look anything like the picture on my card. Okay, but when was yours taken? 2007. Oh. Oh my card. Okay. But when was yours taken? 2007. Oh. Oh, wow. Yeah. You are an OG. Yeah. Brandy, you were like an infant and you had a Costco membership? I was a married woman in 2007. Okay. Well, but you were a child bride. I was a child bride. Okay. I like my picture was definitely in 2008 because I got the membership for Christmas 2007. Well, thank you for clarifying that. But anyway, yeah, so mine, I mean, mine's not that old, but mine's like mid-20s.

Mine's like 26-year-old Kristen. Yeah. So the cashier this week was like, wait a minute. She looks at the back of the card, then looks at me. Did you say if you squint real hard it looks like me? And I was like then looks at me. Did you say if you squint real hard, it looks like me? And I was like, I was like, I was like, it's me. And she is still squinting, still looking. And finally I said, look, please don't make me feel bad about the fact that I don't look

like I'm 26 anymore. Because it's like, I'm not lying to you. Yeah, no. Although I know it's her job. Yeah. Well, so then she felt bad. So then she overcorrects. And she's like, no.

What? You look like you're 26 now. I thought maybe this card was your mom on here and that you are. And I'm like, okay. Okay. Oh, God. Just kidding. I wanted to die, and I think she wanted to die as well.

Ooh, KylaNotThatKyla wants to know, Kristen, have you deadheaded your pansies today? No, I haven't. And I shan't discuss it further. Oh, this is a great question. IndieCoolQueen wants to know, what are your thoughts on soup in the summer? Okay, the boys that we went for lunch today had multiple soup and soup-like items on their menu. What's a soup-like item? Gumbo.

Okay. That is a soup. It's not a soup. It's a soup-like item? Gumbo. Okay. That is a soup. It's not a soup. It's a soup-like item. Okay. Alright. And they offered them in three sizes. Yep. Cup, bowl, meal. And I am dying to know what a meal-sized soup looks like. I don't think you are dying to know. If you were dying to know, you would have ordered it and found out. I almost did.

I almost ordered the gumbo because I did want to know what a meal-sized soup looks like. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But sadly, I don't know, and I thought it was too hot to eat soup, so that's my take on soup in the summer.

What's your take on soup in the summer? Soup in the evening, soup in the morning, soup at supper time. When soup is in a bowl, you can eat soup anytime. That's how I feel. Would you eat soup for breakfast?

You fucking would. Absolutely. Zucchini, mashed potato, fucking hot sauce, bitch. It sounds like you have just come up with the most creative insult, and I refuse it. The rules of breakfast don't apply to you. No, they don't apply to me. I'm above the law. Okay, I'll have tomato soup for breakfast anytime.

All right. Oh, I love this question. Wendy Comet wants to know. She burped in front of the question, which is rude, but I had to say it. Wow, Brandi, you've come a long way, baby. Do you remember in the beginning of this podcast when you'd be like, we have to cut that because I burped? No one can ever know. One day you'll fart on this podcast.

That's never happening. It'll happen. If you could spend as much money as you wanted on one room in your house to renovate it to your exacting most pipe dream magical specifications, what room would it be and why? And then Wendy goes on to say, I would pick bathroom, my kingdom, for heated tiles

and a fancy deep soaking tub. I like your thinking there, Wendy. For me, I'd go kitchen. Okay. Okay. I want... What would you do For me, I'd go kitchen. Okay. Okay. I want white cabinets. I want the little tiny cabinets on top that have the glass fronts on them.

I want that. What kind of weird shit would you display in there? I'd probably put my scales in there. Oh, I like those. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I collect vintage kitchen scales, so I would display those in there because typically those cabinets light up and so just like a little light on each one okay i want a commercial style fridge oh fuck i want that so bad i want did you

just what you know did i sneeze your g no i just that's like my dream. That's when I will have made it when I have a commercial style fridge in my kitchen. And I want a gas range with a pot filler. Oh. Yeah. And last but not least, the cherry on the top of my kitchen dreams. Okay, what is it? Trash compactor. No one loves a trash compactor quite like you do.

Growing up, you would come over and use my trash compactor any opportunity. That's right. Loved it. You know what you're missing in your dream kitchen? What? That I think it's something I have now,

not to brag, but I can't live without now. Okay. What's that? Double oven. Oh, yeah. For sure. Double oven.

There's a couple of more things. Okay. Okay. Double oven, nugget ice maker. Oh. Yeah. That's cute.

Yeah. Okay. Good, good. Oh. Yeah. That's cute. Yeah. Okay. Good, good, good. Yeah. I would go balls out bananas on my basement. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Okay. So we'd have Caruso Theaters down there. We already have the big TV, the couch, the everything, but I want like the vintage popcorn maker. Oh, yeah. I want the posters. I want the special lighting. I want the whole deal. And then on the other side of the basement

is Kristen's perfect workout room where I can look into a YouTuber's eyes lovingly as she turns her arms round and round and I do the same thing and I curse at her and she feels it. Yeah. She does.

I want that perfect flooring. I want the mirrors so that I can check myself out. Give myself the business. Do you want one of those like actual mirrors where you can do like the classes through the mirror? No, that creeps me out. That creeps me out too. Creeps me out too much. I'm an old fashioned gal.

I like a TV screen. Mirrors are for looking at myself only. Oh, I'd get one of those Pilates reformer things, even though I don't know how to use them. But they've always looked really cool. Yeah. Don't you think? You ever seen those? Yeah, I've seen them.

Yes. I don't know how they work. All right. Yeah. That's the end of my dreams. It sounds wonderful. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. All right. Ooh. Les Lemon wants to know, thoughts on Taylor Lautner's wife being named Taylor Lautner? What? Yeah, Taylor Lautner.

He's nothing. You don't know who that is? I mean, it sounds. Twilight. Oh, okay. He's Jacob from Twilight. All right. Very good.

The wolfy one. Okay. Sure. Okay. Dark hair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So he just got married to a woman named Taylor, so her name is also Taylor Lautner. That's a mess. That's so confusing. How do you get anything done? Surely she didn't take his last name. I think she did. Well, she shouldn't be allowed.

They should enter that into the computer, and whatever they thought Y2K was going to be should happen. Like, it just shouldn't be allowed to happen. First names, I think it's okay because Shirley, you got nicknames. Yeah, like Shirley. Her name's Taylor, but she goes by Shirley. And his name is Taylor, but he goes by Peg. And it's like, you don't both have to have nicknames. Peg and Shirley. And it's like, you don't both have to have nicknames.

Peg and Shirley. And they love bingo. You know, I think we should move on to Supreme Court inductions. How do you get inducted on this podcast? You've got to do terrible things. What kind of terrible things? You've got to sign up for our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. And then you've got to tell us your name, how to pronounce it.

And you've got to tell us our... No, you've got to tell us your first celebrity crush. We don't want to hear about ourselves. Our own celebrity crushes? Don't tell me how much Brandi loved Lance Bass. I did love Lance Bass. I still love Lance Bass. Never going to happen. No.

Sugar pop. No. Okay. Also, I'm happily married. He's happily married. Like, you know, things are fine. Maybe I'll meet him one day. Maybe.

I'm going to put that on my vision board. Okay. Meet Lance Bass. Okay. It's right there in the middle. You know the best way to do it. What? Just start hanging out around his house?

No. Name your vagina, Lance Bass. I already did that. Well, you did it, actually. That's my favorite joke I've ever told on this podcast. What episode number was it? I don't know. Damn it.

I'm not good at that stuff. Somebody asked that about a song from one of the episodes that Damn it. I'm not good at that stuff. Somebody asked that about a song from one of the episodes that we sang. I'm not good at the chatty stuff. I can only remember the cases from the episodes. And I can remember it all. Okay. All right. So here we go.

We're continuing to read your names and your first celebrity crushes. Aaron Slott. Kyle from Hey Dude. Kelly Payne. Jared Leto. Brandon Crumley. Jason the Red Ranger. Kyle from Hey Dude. Kelly Payne. Jared Leto. Brandon Crumley. Jason the Red Ranger. Amy Myrovich.

David Bowie in The Labyrinth. Yeah, I mean, you've got a bulge, a bulge with a capital B-U-L. I remember telling my friend he makes my crotch feel funny. That's great. Jill. Will Wheaton. Katrina Kite. Christina Ricci.

Amy Winters. Fonzie. Kate Fishner. Frankie Muniz. Stephanie Pinkerton. Jared Leto. Carrie Warner. David Duchovny.

April Minzner. Brendan Fraser. Meg Rowe. Florence Pugh. Ashley White. She says, I'mowe. Florence Pugh. Ashley White. She says, I'm bi, so I have to pick two. Rachel Weisz and Brendan Fraser, both in The Mummy. Yeah, absolutely.

That seems greedy in the same movie. Amanda Lyung. Michael Jackson. Oh, no. Erin O'Shea. Will Wheaton. Elise Megan. Michael J. Fox.

T. Ann. Tim McGraw. Okay Wheaton. Elise Megan. Michael J. Fox. T. Ann. Tim McGraw. Okay. That was so unnecessary. Terry Peel. Nick Carter. Heather. Michelle Pfeiffer.

Oh, no. Tyler. Britney Spears. Kristen. Mark Harmon. Rachel. Eric Von Deaton. Anna Denatolis.

Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Cassie Mazur. Clay Aiken. Welcome to the Supreme Court! Ma'am, I noticed you really weren't here for my shit during that induction. I loved it. Maybe you could improve for next week.

I'll work on it. Great. Thank you, everyone. Seriously, thank you for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. We were really nervous this week and you all made that so much easier. Thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. While you're at it, if you want to

support us in other ways, please find us on social media. Social media. Social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review.

And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on a whole new topic. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web

and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from two episodes of Dateline, JaneDoeNoMore.org, NBC Connecticut, The Waterbury Observer, and The Republican American. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read their stuff.