Let's Go To Court! - 262: The Murder of Michelle Martinko

Episode Date: August 2, 2023

Plenty of people saw Michelle Martinko at the Westdale Mall on December 19, 1979. She spoke to a few friends, tried on a winter coat, and grabbed a bite to eat at Orange Julius. By the time she was ready to leave, Michelle was a little apprehensive about walking through the parking lot alone. Nevertheless, she walked out to her family’s car. No one witnessed what happened next. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “And Then There Were Three” episode Dateline “Murder at the Mall: The Michelle Martinko Case” episode 48 Hours “Michelle Martinko” chilling crimes.com “Michelle Martinko’s murder ‘haunted’ the Cedar Rapids community for 40 years. Now, her suspected killer is set to go on trial.” By Jen Moulton, littlevillagemag.com “Police search of DNA behind much of the argument in Jerry Burns' appeal” by Shannon Moody, CBS2 Iowa News “Supreme Court affirms Jerry Burns' conviction in 1979 Michelle Martinko murder” by William Morris, Des Moines Register “Michelle Martinko” iowacoldcases.org “Martinko v. HNW ASSOCIATES” justia.com “State of Iowa v. Jerry Lynn Burns” iowacourts.gov “Murder of Michelle Martinko” wikipedia.org YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 47+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the murder of Michelle Martinko. Okay, I know this isn't correct.

What? I know in my head and my heart that this isn't correct. Okay. But have you done this case before? No, I'm not so familiar. I'm not. The name, I don't know. It's a pretty big case. You might just be familiar with it. Because I'm a genius. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. I think it's a pretty well-known case. Also, I'm a genius. Oh, and you're such a genius. Yes. Hello, everyone. Welcome.

I'm a genius, and my friend Brandy is also here. Welcome. I'm a genius and my friend Brandy is also here. Aww. Aww. That's mean. It's okay because I'm not a genius. And I'm not really here.

Ooh. It's a ghost. Okay. I like making ghost noises. I can tell you do. Yeah, I really enjoy it. London's very into pretending to be a ghost right now, so we make ghost noises at our house a lot right now. Are you going to be devastated when she inevitably grows out of that phase? I will be.

I will be. I think it's really funny because she's, like, this, like, spooky little kid. Like, she loves Halloween stuff. She watches, like, little Halloween song videos all the time. She murders people. No, I just think it's really funny because, like david and i both really like spooky stuff but i don't think that we've pushed that on her and she's just kind of like naturally gravitated to it herself no she didn't naturally gravitate it to yeah it's in the water in your house it's in the water

i mean i've never once found a found a Halloween video for her to watch. She seeks them out herself. But like her older brother had a Goosebumps themed birthday party. It's in the water. All right. It's happening. Yeah. She's learning by osmosis.

It's a bubbling cauldron. No, I think she's prone to this interest because of who her parents are. But also you just have a spooky house, ma'am. My house is not spooky. So spooky. It's not interest because of who her parents are. But also, you just have a spooky house, ma'am. My house is not spooky. So spooky. It's not spooky at all. You got the rat lady when you walk right in. No, there's no more rat lady.

Anyway, London is more excited for Halloween than she was about her birthday. She wanted to skip her birthday and go trick-or-treating. Do a little tradesies. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Trick-or-treating is awesome. Yeah. Yeah, it is. You know what's the spookiest part about your house? What? Little tradesies. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Trick-or-treating is awesome. Yeah. Yeah.

It is. You know what's the spookiest part about your house? What? Get this, everyone. The beach-themed bathroom. Yes. But it's nowhere near a beach. It doesn't make sense.

Ooh. Okay, everyone, Brandi's already sick of my shit. We're four minutes in. Oh, Lord, it's's already sick of my shit. We're four minutes in. Oh, Lord, it's going to be a rough one. All right. You want to hear about this case? It's terrible. Oh, great.

Okay. Yeah. No. Oh, no. I'll stop guessing. Okay, that's great. Okay, shout outs to an episode of Dateline, an episode of 48 Hours. Oh, wow.

A piece by Jen Moulton for the Little Village Magazine. Chillingcrimes.com. Oh, okay. This is all. It's everyone. It's everyone. Is there a 2020 episode? I'm sure there is.

I didn't find it. And Wikipedia. The Wikipedia page on this is Mite. Yes. Okay. All right. Just for full on this is Mite. Yes. Okay. All right. Just for full disclosure, the episode of Dateline and the episode of 48 Hours, I listened to both of them in podcast form. Okay.

I actually watched them. Okay. Thank you. You're welcome. It's all about honesty. Yeah. Thank you. You're welcome.

It's all about honesty. Wednesday, December 19th, 1979 was an exciting day for 18-year-old high school senior Michelle Martinko. It was the day of her choir bank. Wow. What the hell was that? Banquet was the word I was trying to say, but instead I said banquet. Well, it was a bumping good time. It was the day of her choir banquet at the Sheridan Hotel in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

Michelle got all dressed up for the event, something she loved to do. She wore this black dress. It was, I mean, it was really cute. It had these, like, double spaghetti strap situation. She wore black panty. It was, I mean, it was really cute. It had these like double spaghetti strap situation. She wore black pantyhose and heels. She did her blonde hair up in her signature Farrah Fawcett hairstyle. Oh, hell yeah. Michelle has amazing hair.

It's beautiful. Yes. Everyone, you can't see what she's doing, but she's doing the big wave thing. I'm doing the Farrah Fawcett, yes, yes. And if you don't know what that means, we can't help you with anything. I can't help you. And then she topped it all off with her beloved calico-colored rabbit fur coat. Michelle attended the choir banquet and then headed to the Westdale Mall.

The mall was fairly new to the area. It had only been open about two years at the time, and it was a regular hangout for Michelle, her friends, and her classmates. Michelle actually worked at the mall, so she knew a lot of people there, but on this particular night, Michelle had come to the mall on a mission. She was there to pay off the new winter coat her mother had put on layaway for her as a Christmas present. With $180 in her pocket, which was the remaining balance on this coat. Man, that was an expensive-ass coat. In 1978?

Yeah, it was 79. But yes, expensive-ass coat. Makes a big difference, 78 to 79. I was going to say, thank you so much. The inflation rate was just nuts. So she goes to the mall. She's got $180. I think it might have been like actually $187, $86, something like that.

But around $180 in her pocket to go get this coat. We will pause until you get the right figure. Okay, different sources said different amounts. I found one that said $186, one that said $187, and then like everything else says $180. So I went with $180. Anyway, it's fine. I'll give myself lashings over this later. I can tell you will.

So Michelle took the $180 and she hit the mall. She had asked a couple of friends to join her, but none had been able to because it was a school night. But Michelle ran into several friends from school while she was there. She even sat and ate with one of her friends at the Orange Julius. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Before saying goodbye and continuing on her mission to buy this coat. God, malls used to be such a thing.

Yeah. So this mall, spoiler, it's gone. It's not there anymore. Of course, every mall is gone now. It closed in 2014. Oak Park mall, spoiler, it's gone. It's not there anymore. Of course. Every mall is gone now. It closed in 2014. Oak Park Mall is still there. I know.

Somehow it keeps going. And somehow it's like full still. Most malls have like tons of empty spots in them. Not Oak Park Mall. I don't know what the deal is with it. It's a front. Probably is. All right.

It's a mattress firm. Yeah. It's just full of mattress firms. Yeah. It's just full of mattress firms. Yeah, Oak Park Mall has six mattress firms. So eventually Michelle had to call home because she couldn't figure out what store her mom had put the coat on layaway at. So she calls home. She talks to her mom. And ultimately she made it to the store.

She checked out the coat and she decided that it just wasn't for her, and she decided not to buy it. Michelle had a very particular style. She loved fashion and beauty and all the things. What was the store? I don't know. I don't know what store it was at. Okay, okay. So Michelle's sister Janelle said that Michelle's strong sense of style stemmed from Michelle struggling with a scoliosis diagnosis at the age of 12.

So after the diagnosis, Michelle had had to wear this bulky back brace for two years. And during that time, she didn't really want to be noticed. She wanted to just blend in. But then after she got her brace removed, she really came into her own. She joined choir and the twirling squad. What? Batons. That is the coolest shit.

Batons. Okay. She made the squad as a sophomore, which according to my research was unheard of. Uh-huh. And she got to wear this awesome, glittery, sequined costume with white go-go boots. Yeah. Fucking amazing. Okay. What else would you wear?

Yeah, right. I don't know. So anyway, so she'd really come into her own, and she tried out a bunch of different, like, clothing and hairstyles. And by this time, she had just very much like set into her signature look. So after deciding against the coat, Michelle wandered around the mall for a bit before heading home. She was last seen in front of a jewelry store somewhere around 9 p.m. While lots of people had seen and interacted with Michelle at that mall that night, at the mall that night. I think I said that mall, but you know, whatever. Yeah, I was horrified. No one could be quite sure what time she left as she had left by herself. She had mentioned over the course of the evening that she was a

little nervous to walk to her car alone because she'd had to kind of park far away. But what we know for sure is that at some point, Michelle Martinko left the mall that night. She walked to her car and she got inside. But Michelle never made it home. Her parents, Janet and Albert Martinko, reported her missing at two o'clock in the morning. And the police, along with her friends and neighbors, immediately began searching for her. It was 4 a.m. on the 20th of December. So just like the early morning hours the next day. When police spotted the Martinko's tan and green 1972 Buick Electra.

This is a big boat of a car. Right, right. Big old car sitting in the mall parking lot. They went and they checked it out. One of the doors was unlocked. Three, like there was like two back doors and two front doors and one, one door was unlocked. The other three were locked. And inside the car, they found Michelle's body curled into the floorboard of the front passenger side. Her head was resting against the seat, and there was blood everywhere.

Michelle had been stabbed and slashed and cut 29 times. Most of the wounds were to her face and chest, and Michelle had fought really fucking hard. She had severe defensive wounds to her hands and arms. When the Martinkos got the word about this horrible discovery at the mall, Michelle's mother, Janet, called Michelle's sister, Janelle, and her husband, John Stonebreaker, and she told them that they had just identified Michelle's body at the mall. John would later recall that Janet wasn't really crying on the phone. She was so distraught.

But he said it was almost like she was gasping for air and choking. Oh, it would be so. She could hardly speak. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be so shocking. The entire family was devastated. Even, I mean, obviously. I was going to say. But even more so for Michelle's parents, she had been their miracle baby. After having Janelle, Albert and Janet had tried for 12 years to have another child. Janet had suffered through five miscarriages before she finally gave birth to Michelle at 44 years old. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. And Janelle,

Michelle's sister, said that Michelle was just the perfect final piece to their family from the very beginning. She said that despite their age difference, she and Michelle were always close. They always got along. And she said that Michelle was just always a joy to be around. And now she was gone. And she was gone brutally. She'd been brutally murdered. So police start investigating this case. They discovered, you know, what I've already told you. Michelle went to the mall that day to buy the coat. She talked to several friends there. She had the cash on her to buy the coat. The cash was still on her when they found her.

And she bought a couple of other things while she was at the mall. And she had like a bag of packages from various stores at the mall. And that was still in the car as well. doors of the mall and that was still in the car as well. Police believed that Michelle had left the mall that night, walked to her car, gotten in, but before she could close the door, somebody had come along, shoved her over to the passenger side and gotten in behind her and then attacked her. An autopsy revealed that she obviously had suffered multiple stab wounds right and that there was a fatal stab wound to her heart she had bled to death michelle was not sexually assaulted she was fully clothed when she was found but police believed that this crime may have been

sexually motivated but because of how hard hard Michelle thought that this perpetrator was unable to follow through with their original plan. Were there no witnesses to this? Zero witnesses. And it happened in a mall parking lot? Wow. Okay. Yeah.

No witnesses. So police went to work trying to figure out, obviously, who had done this. Was this somebody who knew Michelle, somebody that knew, like had followed her through the mall? Or was this, you know, somebody who saw her in the parking lot and took an opportunity? Police believed that whoever had done this had worn gloves and that the attack had taken place entirely inside the car. So as I mentioned, the scene was extremely bloody. Right. There was no blood outside the car. So whoever had done this attack had like managed to get in the car and like close the door before the attack started. Yeah. The reason they believed that the killer wore gloves is because on the outside of the car and like just like the surface dirt that's on the car, they found glove marks that were consistent with very common household cleaning gloves at the time.

It's a very distinct like Chevron pattern in the finger tipping on the gloves. Like a detective literally went to the store the next day, bought the rubber, yellow rubber kitchen gloves, essentially. We all know what you're talking about. Yes, and matched them to that same pattern. But we need you to go into more detail somehow. You're welcome. So no fingerprints were found. There were a couple of spots inside the car where they found blood that they believed was not Michelle's. So there was a spot on the steering wheel.

There was a spot on the gear shifter. They believed that whoever had pulled off this attack had actually started the car and moved it at one point, maybe intended to take Michelle to a secondary location. And then something stopped them. And they ended up just reparking the car. Well, yeah, very potentially. Yes. Okay. But it's even possible that, like, after the attack, they then intended to. I see what you mean. Yeah.

You get what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. But for whatever reason, the car had been reparked and the attacker had left. They took those couple spots of blood that they believed must have belonged to this attacker. They also believed that this attack was so violent. Michelle's defensive wounds were so severe that she had to have injured her attacker. Right. And so they're like, this makes sense that there would be blood in here from her attacker.

They took those samples. But it's 1979. And so like they blood typed them. That's all they could do at the time. And they were type A, which is a very common blood type. And they were type A, which is a very common blood type. And despite the fact that Michelle had been seen by so many people in that mall that day, not a single witness came forward and said that they had seen her in the parking lot, had seen anybody near her car, had seen anybody approach her car. No one saw anything.

So then they just started talking to the people closest to Michelle. The first – well, I won't say the first person. The first person I'm sure was her family members. One of the first people that they questioned was this guy, Andy Seidel, who was Michelle's ex-boyfriend. Michelle and Andy had met when they were 15 years old at the roller rink. They dated for like two years. He was a year older than her. But Michelle had actually ended the relationship. She said she didn't want to be in a serious relationship.

And Andy didn't take it very well. Her friends said that Andy was very controlling and, yeah, that he did not take her breaking up with him well at all. How long ago did they break up, though? A significant time before this, but they were still friendly. So interestingly enough, Michelle and Andy ran into each other at the mall that day. Andy was there. Oh. And when he talked to police about it, he said he was there buying Michelle a Christmas

present. Huh. And they were like, but you broke up. And he's like, yeah, but we're still friends, you know. But he said, you know, I was at the mall till this time. I left. And at this time, the medical examiner had placed her time of death somewhere between 8 and 10 p.m. But people had seen her in the mall until about 9 p.m.

So that really narrows that window really from 9 to 10. And so Andy said he was at home by that time. And his parents corroborated that. They said he was home. He couldn't have possibly been there. And Andy insisted that he was on good terms with Michelle. Like he would not have done this to her. Like they were still friends.

I assume he had no scratches on him. No marks. He did not. Nope. Nope. But that didn't stop the rumors from. I was going to say. I mean that seems like a pretty big coincidence that he's there at the mall.

Yeah. So basically everyone thought Andy did this. Oh, no. Like the whole town of Cedar Rapids. So this made huge news in Cedar Rapids, obviously. Yeah. It's a town of about 100,000 people, not a huge town,

and for something this brutal to happen at the mall? Like this changed the way people lived at the time. Like young girls, you know, now we're having like security take them to their car after they were done shopping, stuff like that. I mean, it really, it really changed things for a lot of people. So Andy is like, everybody is thinking that Andy did this. He also did this really kind of weird thing at Michelle's funeral. He like stood by the casket and started crying. And then he like reached in and was like, they said he basically, he nearly climbed inside the casket with her.

Oh, yeah. And she had dated somebody else since they broke up. And at the funeral, he asked Michelle's mother, I just need to know who she loved when she died. Did she love me or did she love this other guy? Yeah, that's rough. Yeah. Based on his parents, you know, corroborating his timeline and everything, he was cleared for the most part. He was never arrested. You know, he ended up after high school, he left Cedar Rapids. He joined the Navy. But even after he left, lots of people were like,

Cedar Rapids he joined the Navy but even after he left lots of people were like well Andy's the one who did this yeah I mean it's what what's wrong

why does that what's happening is it going to shut down is our computer going to blow up no what are you talking about you didn't see that little box pop up

and the computer go no yeah it did all of that just now I have no idea what you're talking about it went away yeah I'm, it did all of that just now. No idea what you're talking about. It went away. Yeah, I'm sure.

It did. It was there a minute ago, I swear. No, that sucks. I don't know how to feel. It seems like he didn't do this just. I know. But he lived with that surrounding him for, well, you'll see how long. Until they find the real person who did it? Maybe. Or until they find, well, we just continue on.

Do you think he did it, Kristen? No, I don't. Okay. Because of you. All right. Because of you all right because of you they interviewed a couple of other people like the guy that she'd had had eaten at orange julius with he also worked at the mall he was just a friend of hers he just happened to be on his lunch break like about the time she showed up at the

mall they like put him in an interrogation room and they did the thing like in the movies where they like slam their hands down on the table table or like tell us why you murdered her and he was like i didn't and he said okay so i believe he is the person that michelle said like that she was nervous about walking to her car by herself yeah too and he's like if i could go back in time i would have walked her to her car why didn't i walk her to her car why didn't i offer to do that oh geez yeah yeah but none of these interviews with any of the friends or anybody that she knew go anywhere and the cedar rapids police department had like nothing in the way of leads like nothing in june of 1980 so we're talking like six months after this happened. No, a year.

Wait. Did it happen in 79 or 78? 79. That's right. You were very clear about that. Then I got nervous because I couldn't remember if it was 78 or 79. So, yeah, like six months after this happens, they release. Okay, this is kind of interesting to me.

And I've lost my place. So I'm stalling right now. They release a composite sketch of a potential suspect. What? OK. I thought there were no witnesses. Right. OK, so eventually two supposed witnesses came forward and said they may have seen something.

They were in the area, but they can't remember. And so they were questioned under hypnosis. Okay. And then this sketch was put together based on what they got from them under hypnosis. So it was a white man in his late teens or early 20s. He was about six feet tall. He had dark eyes and dark curly hair. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, that's got to describe every young man in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, right? It describes a lot of them, I'm sure. Okay. And so they release this sketch and, you know, they get some tips coming in and nothing leads anywhere. Months went by. Nothing. They put out a reward for information leading to the arrest, a $10,000 reward. Again, nothing. Again, nothing. This case went cold. In the mid-1980s, Albert and Janet Martinko filed a lawsuit against the mall saying that they failed to provide reasonable security the night that Michelle Martinko was killed in the parking lot.

And that case was appealed all the way to the Iowa Supreme Court. But in September of 1986, it was decided in the favor of the mall. Did they have adequate lighting in the parking lot? Okay. I don't know. That's about all I know about the case. I did read the appeal to the Supreme Court, and it really does not go into any more detail than that. They got a summary judgment and just dismissed it. What? Everyone, I did the thing where you cross your arms and you look at somebody sideways. That's how you let people know you're disappointed.

Okay. That case was decided in 1986. Nothing happened with Michelle's case. It remained cold. Albert Martinko died in 1995. And Janet Martinko died in 1998. Oh, my God. They died not knowing who had killed their daughter.

But Janelle said that they both believed that it was likely her ex-boyfriend, Andy. Wow. Mm-hmm. Yeah. In 2006, a new detective was assigned to the case. It had just been, like like sitting there for years. I mean, you know, multiple detectives had been assigned to it over the years, but there just wasn't anything to go on. Yeah.

So in 2006, this new detective, Detective Doug Larrison, took out the file and he started going through it and he read the whole file. And he read the whole file and he discovered that another detective who had taken this case, you know, a couple of years earlier had actually sent off those blood scrapings that were found on the gear shift of the car to get them tested for DNA. But there were no results in the file. The detective had never followed and got the results. And it turns out that there was they had been able to pull a male DNA profile from it. Holy shit. Yeah. So like, OK, this is this is good. But the profile was only a partial profile.

So while it could eliminate a huge percentage of the population, it wasn't enough to identify her killer. And so they needed more. And so then, because Detective Larrison knew that DNA had really, you know, advanced, obviously, since 1979 when this took place, he decided to have another look at the evidence in the case. So Michelle's dress, obviously, had been taken as evidence, and it had a lot of blood on it, her own blood. And they decided to test it to see if there maybe was anything else on it as well. And when they tested it, they found a spot on it that was not Michelle's blood. And they were able to pull a full DNA profile off of it. Holy shit.

DNA profile off of it. Holy shit. And it was a male DNA profile consistent with the partial profile that they pulled off that gear shift. So they now had a DNA sample of Michelle's killer. So they got Andy.

Put the brakes on. No. Speed up. I know. So they put. Pedal to the metal on. No. Speed up. I know. So they put. Pedal to the metal. Stop it. So they enter that DNA sample into CODIS. You know, the government. Yeah, but they're not going to find anything.

Millions of samples in it. Don't find anything. No match. No match. So then. They find Andy. They go back and they start testing anybody who is willing to give a DNA sample whose name has been in this report so far. And they end up at Andy's house. Don't get mad at me.

I'm not the one who did this. And Andy agrees to give a DNA sample. He voluntarily gives one. Okay. And it wasn't him. Yeah. Oh, poor guy. After almost 30 years. And her parents thought he did it

and he was finally cleared oh my gosh yeah oh that's so sad yeah janelle talks about this either on the 48 hours or the dateline episode about how her parents went to their grave thinking that this guy did it yeah he didn't went to their grave thinking that this guy did it and he didn't. That's kind of an amazing story about how you've got to be really careful with circumstantial stuff because, I mean, I hear all that. Yeah. And he was at the mall that night buying a present for her. It just sounds like bullshit.

Yep. But it wasn't. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Full steam ahead. Well, we need to do an ad break. Should we do it right now? Oh, God. It's time for an ad. Doodaloo.

Okay, we're back. Alright. Do you want to recap the case for everybody, Kristen? Yeah, I've got about half an hour. No, I want to know that poor guy. Okay, so he's cleared after 30 years of people, his entire hometown, thinking that he had murdered his high school girlfriend. Yeah, I cannot even imagine.

That's awful. Yeah. They get this DNA sample, right? But like it still goes nowhere because they still have to be able to match it with somebody. And eventually Detective Larrison is like, I'm burnt out. I need somebody able to match it with somebody. And eventually, Detective Larrison is like, I'm burnt out. I need somebody else to look at this case. Like, I'm getting nowhere on it. So in 20, sorry, in 2015, I was going to say 2016. Boy, was I wrong. Boys, my face red. In 2015, Detective Matt Denlinger took over as lead detective on the case. So Matt Denlinger,

something that's interesting about him, his dad was one of the original detectives on the case in 1979 when this happened. Wow. Yeah. So he was like a little kid when this happened. He was like five when it happened. But his dad was one of the original detectives, and so he followed the case all this time. Then he became a detective himself, and he gets assigned to this case. Okay.

Around that time, he started reading about Parabon NanoLabs. We've talked about Parabon NanoLabs on this podcast before. I covered the case of the two teenage girls in Tacoma, Washington that were killed while riding their bicycles. Yes. And they thought for years the cases were linked and it turns out they weren't. Yes. So Parabon Nano Labs was instrumental in solving that case. They put together first a sketch based on a DNA sample. And well, first of all, they determined that it was not the same person that did it. And then they put together the sketches of the two potential suspects. And anyway, same thing's going to happen in this case.

So he talks to Parabon Nano Labs and they decided that they would help. Well, I mean, they had to pay for it. Obviously, they didn't do it for free. So they asked him to send over the DNA sample. He sends it over and they create a picture of what this potential suspect could look like. They determined, based on the DNA sample, that the suspect would be a white male with blonde hair, blue eyes. And then they created different sketches, each with a slightly different look. So they had one of what he would look like in 1979 with a couple of different hairstyles because they didn't know how he would have worn his hair. And they did an age progression one for like what he would look like in 2015. That's incredible. It's nuts to me. Do you want to see them? Yes, I want to see them. Yeah, I have them here.

Oh, wow. I guess it really doesn't help the podcast listener to hear me say, oh, wow. But what I will say is what a difference a hairstyle makes. It really does. help the podcast listener to hear me say, oh, wow. But what I will say is what a difference a hairstyle makes. It really does. I think that's actually really important that they show him with different hair. Yeah. Yeah. Because they look like three totally different people from a glance. Okay, that's interesting.

Yeah. So they release these sketches. They release these sketches that Parabon made to the public. And they are hoping that they get, you know. There's no way that's going to work. They hope that they're going to get like 200 tips saying this looks like this guy. Right. Instead, they get 200 tips saying they all look like somebody different. So, again, this goes nowhere.

But around that same time. So they release the sketches. They get the tips. Whatever. Nothing really happens. I follow up some leads, nothing happens. But then Matt Denlinger starts reading about the Golden State Killer case and how they've caught him using genetic genealogy. And Parabon Nano Labs helped with that.

And so he's like, OK, maybe there's something that we can do here. And so, again, he reaches out and they're like, yeah, let's create a DNA family tree. And so, again, Parabon assists and they search this public national database called GED Match. So they take this DNA sample that they already had. They put it into this database where people have voluntarily submitted their own DNA. So this is for people who are trying to track their genealogy. Obviously, they want to know who they're related to, whatever. And so they're like, let's see if we can find a familial link to this sample. And they did. They found a relative of this DNA sample living in Vancouver, Washington. Her name was Brandy Jennings.

And they reach out to her. Oh, my God. And let her know that they're investigating this case and that her DNA has been linked to this person. But she is a distant relative. She is a second cousin once removed. Oh, wow. So basically they share great grandparents is the way it works. And so they reach out and she's, you know, let her know

about this. And she says that like, she loves that her DNA was used for this. Like, great. If this is going to, if this is going to catch somebody who committed a crime, absolutely. I'm all in. Use my DNA. So then they start building a family tree backward from her and her great grandparents. So they put together this big tree with the help of Parabon and then they try and get it as close like to if they can find anybody on this family tree that's in iowa and they finally make this tree big enough that they find a relative in iowa and they ask her if they can test her dna and she allows it and she is the first cousin of the killer's dna sample shit and so they're like okay yeah like let's look at your first cousins. Turns out she has three first cousins.

Oh, my God. A set of brothers who all live in Manchester, Iowa, which is 45 miles north of Cedar Rapids. Which is where Michelle Martinko was murdered. So then the detectives go to work surreptitiously tracking down those three brothers' DNA samples. So in October of 2018, they start surveilling them. They are Kenneth, Donald, and Jerry Burns. So Kenneth, they follow to a golf course where he has lunch at the club and they collect his straw afterward. Donald, they surveil his house.

I could have those backwards. It's possible. But we get the idea. Donald, they go to his house. I could have those backwards. It's possible. But we get the idea. Donald, they go to his house. They sit outside his house. They wait for him to put trash out and then they take his toothbrush that he had thrown away. Pull a DNA sample off of that. Jerry, they follow to a pizza ranch

in Manchester. Oh my god, have you? I have been to Pizza Ranch. It's not my favorite. Is that the one that's like a buffet? Yeah, it's a pizza buffet. It's basically a pizza street. Yes. Yeah, it doesn't look good.

No, it's not my thing. I've only been there one time and that was plenty for me. Who took you there? They were David's family. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They drag you there? They did. They did. Uh-huh. Would they make you sample? They didn't make me sample anything. I had a couple pieces of pizza. Seems like you're being kind of a brat about it now.

I was. I mean, I'm sure I was a brat about it then. I didn't want to go. Were you too good for it at the time? I just don't like a buffet. I don't either. Disgusto Barfo. Exactly.

Yeah. What year was this? It was not that long ago. Exactly. Yeah. Have we learned nothing from 2020? I guess not. So they follow him to a pizza ranch. He sits and he eats lunch with his son.

The detectives sit in the booth right next to them. They're just like watching the whole time. And they watch Jerry Burns drink several sodas. And then he and his son get up to leave and they take his straw out of his cup that he left at the table. And they send all three of those things off to the lab and one of them comes back an exact match to the sample the odds that it could belong to anyone other than pizza ranch boy it is pizza ranch boy are one in 100 billion. OK. That's pretty damn good odds.

You're saying there's a chance. Considering there are 8 billion people on the planet. So yeah it comes back a positive match for Jerry Burns. And so on December 19th 2018. Holy shit. The 39th anniversary of Michelle's murder. Detectives head to his office in Manchester. So he owns a little business in Manchester.

He owns a powder coating business. What? Powder coating. It's like a paint process. Okay. Yeah. So they go to his office and he's just like sitting in there petting a cat. No.

Shut up. 100%. And he's just like sitting in there petting a cat. No, 100 percent. I mean, I think that is kind of funny that he's like literally a villain petting a cat. Yes, that's hilarious. He's sitting there petting a cat. They bring in Detective Denlinger. He brings in a hidden camera in like a travel coffee cup and he sets it down on the desk. And so they record the entire interaction with him in this interview.

So they sit down and they're like, we're following up on a cold case, a murder that happened in Cedar Rapids, you know, a few years ago. Did he pet the cat as he was being interviewed? Yes. He pet the cat as he was being interviewed. He took and made phone calls while he was being interviewed. He sent off a couple texts while he was being interviewed. He took and made phone calls while he was being interviewed. He sent off a couple texts while he was being interviewed. What? Like, wild.

He's trying to be too cool. Exactly. Yeah. So he's doing all of this shit. Yeah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, first the cat's like climbing around his desk and then he grabs it

and he's like petting it and like literally villain shit. Okay. So they ask him and he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of remember that case. I remember that case. You know, it was a long time ago. And they're like, okay, yeah.

We put out this sketch and they lied to him at this point. And they said, we put out the sketch and a few people called us and said, it looks like you. And so they show him the sketch and he goes, you think that looks like me and the detective denlinger goes yeah i mean i think a little bit a little bit enough for me to drive out here and talk to you and does it actually look like him okay so i did see a picture of jerry burns when he was in high school uh-huh and sure it looks kind of like him okay but it looks kind of like

yeah it looks kind of like a lot of people but it looks kind of like, yeah, all right. Yeah, it looks kind of like a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. Here is the picture of him from his high school yearbook. Yeah. Not really. I mean, he's a white guy with blonde hair. Yeah. Yeah.

He didn't look very 70s, I got to say. Well, I think he looks like he's about 40 there and he's a high school senior. Like, his bags under his eyes are worse than mine now. Well, this is, he had no choice but to become a criminal. It's the perfect crime when you somehow look 20 years older than you actually are. Yeah. Okay. So they're like, you know, he's like, you think I look like that guy?

And the detective's like, yeah, I think, you know, enough that it was worth me driving up here to talk to you. And he goes, boy, I think I'd be happy if i looked in the mirror and saw that like like yeah that guy in the sketch looks way better than i do well he's right he is right brandy you can't tell me that that sketch is not an improvement over his actual face. Yeah, okay. Yeah, sure. You just said he looked like he was 40 when he was 20 and he has huge bags under the eyes. If you compare the age progression version of him to his high school picture, it's maybe a little closer. All right. Anyway, so then they're like, what would you say if we told you that your DNA was found at that murder scene?

Do you have any explanation for that? And he's like, no, I have no idea how that could happen. And they're like, okay. Would you be willing to give us a DNA sample? So at this point, they have his DNA matched to it, but they have not had a voluntary sample from him, which is like the next step in confirming all of this. And he goes, yeah, no, no, I'm not going to give a sample. And so then Detective Denlinger pulls out a warrant, slaps it on the desk. You made me spit on myself.

That would be a very satisfying moment. It would be. It would be. Oh, you're not going to give me a sample voluntarily? Shabam! Yes! Lauren! And so they take his sample, and they're like, so tell us, you know, have you ever been to Westdale Mall? And he's like, yeah, you know, I've been there.

I had been there a couple times. Yeah. My wife and my kids, we'd go there sometimes. They're like, any chance you were there? You go back with your wife and kids? Mm-hmm. Any chance you were there on... Any chance you murdered someone there?

Right. And he's like, no, I just, I don't remember. That's a long time ago. No way to know, you know. And so then they're like trying to tell him that his DNA has been found at the scene. And he's like not either. He's not getting it or like he just doesn't want to admit that he understands what they're saying because he just keeps saying test the DNA. Test the DNA.

And they're like, no, no, no. We already did. Your DNA was found on a murder victim and he's like test the dna test it and so they're like okay we're done here but i think that's smart like if you if you know that the police are able to lie to you yeah well they're not lying well but he doesn't know that they followed him to the pizza ranch.

That's true. He does not know that. He thought that was just a lovely day eating disgusting pizza. Disgusting germ-covered pizza. That other people had sneezed on.

Yes. And so they place him under arrest. And then there's this footage of them. I've only heard audio of it because I only listened to the episode. I did not watch it. You mentioned that.

Yeah. Terrible. So Detective Denlinger is sitting in the back of a patrol car with Jerry Burns and they're like talking. And at some point, Detective Denlinger says something to the effect of like, do you think you could have done this and you just don't remember it or you've blocked it out? And Jerry Burns goes, you know, I think this could be something that you could block out if you did something like this. Well, that's not the – okay. What? Yeah. So obviously the DNA sample that they got from the warrant was then tested and it's also a perfect match.

And so Jerry Burns DNA. Check, check, check. Anyway, Jerry was officially charged with the murder of Michelle Martinko. So his trial was originally scheduled to start October 14th, 2019. But in September, his defense requested a delay because they needed some more time to gather evidence and interview witnesses. The prosecution did not object to this. And so the trial was delayed. This time, the defense also asked for a change of venue because this had gotten so much publicity over the basically 40 years that had gone by that they didn't want this trial to take place in Cedar Rapids. And so that motion was granted as well.

And they moved this to Scott County. The trial took place in Davenport, Iowa, in February of 2020. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Why did you say, oh, my gosh, like that? Well, I mean, it's like you're right on the wire. Yeah, for getting it shutting down. Exactly.

Before COVID. I hope this was a quick trial. So we're almost to trial. Hold on. Let me tell you about some pretrial hearing stuff that happened first. I'll allow it. Okay. In pretrial hearings, Jerry Burns' defense attorney claimed that his DNA should not be

admissible because the police did not have a warrant when they collected it originally. When they collected that straw, they'd had no warrant for his DNA. So all of it should be thrown out. It should not be admissible at trial. That was trash. They're allowed to collect that. Yeah, I agree. Did the judge agree? The judge agreed as well. So they allowed the DNA in. There was also some evidence that had been discovered through the course of the investigation after Burns had been arrested that the defense did not want in. This included some cell phone browser history and some computer history that included internet searches for blonde women being raped. Oh.

Blonde women being stabbed. Blonde women being strangled. Oh, God. Sexual intercourse with dead person. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm. That's just some of them. There's a bunch more.

So they had discovered this in his work computer and his cell phone browser history. He's looking this up on his work. Oh, he owns the business. So he can be as creepy as he wants to be. Yeah. Don't worry about my computer history. That's right. And so the defense argued that this would be prejudicial to him if the jury were to hear about these computer searches. And they said it did not pertain to the case in any way because those searches happened almost 40 years after the crime. And the judge agreed. The judge did not allow them in. I agree with that.

I think it's fine. If the searches were something much closer to. I don't know what the. I don't know what the – I don't know what the search – A lot of women stabbed. I mean, that's pretty rough. Well, yeah, of course it's rough. Closer in time, you mean?

No, I mean more like if he was searching – Super closely following this case. Yeah, absolutely. That would be of interest to me. You know, when you've told police what i don't really remember but like if you were being super creepy about it that would be of interest to me but yeah a lot of people look at rough porn yeah and they should all be locked up well no so jerry's trial finally took place in fe of 2020, and he pled not guilty.

The prosecution's case centered entirely around the DNA evidence. So they found his DNA on the gear shifter and a spot on Michelle's dress. I mean, they had scientific information that was presented to the jury about all of that. I'm not going to go into all of it. I want you to. We get the idea. We don't get it. The witness that I found the most interesting

was the testimony of Michael Allison. So Michael Allison was a inmate who had been bunked with Jerry Burns while he was awaiting trial. And he testified about several interesting interactions that he had with Jerry Burns. So he said, like kind of offhand at one point, he said that he had with Jerry Burns. So he said like kind of offhand at one point, he said that he wished he had listened to his dad and cleaned up after himself in regards to this case. So this Michael Allison guy said at one point he just asked him straight out, hey, did you do it? And Jerry Burns didn't say no. He said, I can't talk about the case. did you do it? And Jerry Burns didn't say no. He said, I can't talk about the case. Yeah. And then at another point, he said, no one was thinking about DNA as far as it being a possibility in 1979. And then at another instance, Jerry Burns and Michael Allison

had been playing cards and Michael Allison beat Jerry Burns. And Jerry Burns said, if you beat me again, I'll have to take you to the mall. And then you don't think there's anything to this? I don't know. I'm I'm always. I know. I'm pretty skeptical. We're talking about.

Yeah. Because obviously, I mean. This guy gets something in return for this testimony. Yeah. I think in this case, he got the prosecutor wrote a letter to the prosecutor in his case urging some kind of leniency. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think.

Yeah. I think this kind of testimony is bought. I mean you're probably right his last piece of testimony was that oh I'm sorry there's actually two more things so at one point Michael Allison says Jerry Burns told him that he feels like no matter how this case turns out that he won because he had the opportunity to spend the last 40 years having a family. No. You don't think he ever said that? I don't buy any of this.

I really don't. Last one. Just because it's so emotionally charged. Yeah. It seems like it is crafted to get the jury riled up. Yeah. When there's not other evidence in the case. Right.

Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of evidence. I mean, there's DNA evidence in this case, which is huge. Yeah, and that's good to me. Yeah, absolutely. But you're wanting something else. Yeah. And all of a sudden, this incarcerated man comes forward.

Mm-hmm. And he's getting a little something in exchange for his testimony. I don't know. Okay. And he's getting a little something in exchange for his testimony? I don't know. Okay, so the last thing that Michael Allison said was that Jerry Burns autographed a news story for him about Michelle Martinko's murder. And that he wrote, to my favorite son, Michael, and signed it Jerry Burns. Okay.

Just that he autographed the news story is the is the takeaway there kristin yeah i it says a lot to me that nothing in these supposed conversations like actually reveals stuff only the killer would yes absolutely Okay, so the other piece of evidence that the prosecution shared. Do you believe it? I don't know. No, probably not. I think it's interesting. I think it's possible.

I don't think it's likely. Hmm. Okay. Why do you make that face? It's just a beautiful face I have. Okay, so then. It's called a beautiful face I have. Okay, so then. It's called good genes. The prosecution entered some evidence about Jerry Burns' hands.

So he did. They believed that whoever killed Michelle would have a lot of scarring or injuries because she fought hard. That they would have cut themselves quite a bit. Right. And Jerry Burns does have scars on his hands. But he also worked a physical job. So he said that's just from his manual labor jobs that he's worked his whole life. And so they did, I think, present some evidence of the scarring on his hands.

For their case, the defense said that Jerry was innocent. And then they focused their entire case on telling the jury that DNA evidence isn't foolproof and that there are plenty of other explanations for how Jerry's DNA could have wound up on Michelle Martinko. OK, let's hear it. Well, so they called Dr. Michael Spence to the stand. He is a molecular biologist and he talked about how DNA can be transferred. biologist. And he talked about how DNA can be transferred. And so Michelle could have just gone to that mall that night, which Jerry admits that he's been to before. She could have just innocently picked up. OK, but that's what the prosecution tells you, Kristen. Prosecution told you it was blood, his blood. But do they really know that for sure?

Well, isn't – yeah. I mean, don't they have the address? Here's what they did. OK. This is what the defense says. The defense says prosecution is telling you that this is Jerry Burns' blood DNA that was found at the scene. Right. But what the truth is that they don't want you to know is that, yes, that sample tested positive for blood, and, yes, it's Jerry Burns' DNA.

But it could just be – it could be Michelle Martinko's blood, but just Jerry Burns' DNA is mixed in with it. There's no way to know for sure that that sample is his actual blood. Could just be skin cells. Could be saliva. Could be semen, which is concerning. Yeah, okay, so. This is the defense's whole argument. Yeah. Okay. So this is the defense's whole argument. Right.

So they're trying to say he like walked through the mall that night. Yeah. And she like not even that night. Just at some point. I don't think that's the way a DNA sample works. Especially when it's like 40 years old. So the way. So then the prosecution, when they rebut this, they say, then how come she didn't have the

DNA of every person that she that she ran into at the mall that night on her? Right. Also, let's say it wasn't blood. Let's say it was semen. He doesn't remember that. Right. Yeah. Give me a break.

Yeah. was making an assumption that it was blood when it could easily be some other source of DNA that she just accidentally just very very innocently picked up inside that mall that day that mall that Jerry admits to being at and also it was on two places. It was on her body and it was on her car. Yeah. So what are the chances of that? Okay. So they ask Jerry Burns' brother that on one of these either Dateline or 48 Hours. I can't remember which one.

And he says that at one point Jerry worked at a Buick dealership. So maybe it was the same dealership that sold Michelle's car. Right. We are really bending over backwards here, aren't we? Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Yeah. Jerry Burns' family does not believe that he could have committed this crime.

Really? They truly do not. His daughter talked about it on the Dateline episode. She says, you hear about all those cases, you know, where someone's DNA winds up at a scene and there's a perfectly good explanation for it. And that's what we have here. Which I feel for her. I absolutely do. Yeah, I do too.

I can't even imagine what that would feel like for your father to be arrested and charged with this murder that happened when you were either a small child or maybe not even born yet probably not even born yeah i mean he was 20 he was 25 at the time i don't yeah i don't know yeah i think that it would be impossible to believe that your parent had done something like this but i don't think there's a plausible explanation for this DNA. No. Other than Jerry Burns is the one who murdered Michelle Martinko. Yeah. So Dr. Spence said on the stand that Jerry Burns' DNA could have been there at the scene due to transfer DNA. But on cross-examination, he had to admit that he didn't really think that was likely. Yeah.

He said in his original testimony, he said it's a distinct possibility. And then on cross-examination, he was like, yeah, in my opinion, it's not likely, but it's a possibility. That was the only witness the defense called. They did not offer an alibi for where Jerry may have been that night. That was it. I actually think that's fairly smart. I think the prosecution doesn't have a ton here.

Now, I think DNA, it really doesn't get much better than DNA. I totally agree. But it is troubling that it's basically the only thing they have because, I'm sorry, that testimony from – I agree. It is the only thing they have. And I think the defense did basically the only thing you can do, present another expert who's going to make the jury question what they know about DNA. Yeah. Yeah. And just really lean hard in that closing argument on they haven't proven this beyond a reasonable doubt.

I feel like that's the only thing you can do. Yeah. Yeah. So in closing arguments, the prosecution said that there was only one way Jerry Burns DNA got into that car and on that dress. And that was when Jerry got into the car with Michelle, attacked her, and cut himself in the struggle, leaving a trail of blood behind. The prosecutor told the jury that Michelle had interacted with at least half a dozen friends on the night of her death, and none of their DNA was found on her or inside her car. Yeah. I think that's a really good argument. Mm-hmm. No, he for sure did this.

Yeah. The jury then got the case, and they deliberated for less than three hours. And they found Jerry Burns guilty of first-degree murder. He was 66 years old at the time of his conviction. Jerry was actually sentenced, like, just a couple months later in the middle of COVID. Somehow, I don't know what I was doing. They were still having stuff. So they even had in court like he's in there with a mask on and they did social distancing in the courtroom.

Before Jerry was sentenced, he gave a short statement to the court and he said he was innocent. He said that somebody else had killed Michelle. I'm very sorry. Did he sneeze in the middle of his statement? He did not. I'm so sorry. You're fine. He said that somebody else had killed Michelle that night, and he didn't know who they were or why they did it.

Before he was sentenced, his attorney made a motion for a new trial because some new evidence had been uncovered. Yeah, right. A private investigator, I don't know who it was hired by. Okay. I'm assuming the defense. All right. Had tracked down a music teacher, Catherine Berkey, who taught private piano lessons and that she taught Michelle piano lessons and had a Michelle, Michelle, she had a lesson scheduled with Michelle inside the Westdale night, the night that Michelle was murdered. What did I say? Westside Mall. Did I say Westside night? I think so. Let me let me back this No. Sorry, Katie. Cut all of that. I like the idea of getting inside a night and having a lesson inside that night. Okay.

So the new evidence was this music teacher. Ting, ting. That's the sound of. Anyway, Catherine Berkey was this woman. I'm sorry. Who taught private piano lessons. Inside a night. Inside the Westdale Mall and had an appointment with Michelle at 830 the night that she was murdered.

Okay. So the defense argued. What does. Okay. This is the thing that I don't I don't think matters at all. So they argued that this meant that Michelle had a regular routine. She regularly took these lessons. They were at the mall.

Somebody close to her knew she would be at the mall that night and clearly followed her and attacked her. That's what this evidence shows. You don't get a new trial for that. That's what the judge said, too. Get out of here. Yeah. The judge said that. That's what the judge said, too. Get out of here. Yeah. The judge said that would not have changed the verdict in this case. No.

No. And then the judge sentenced Jerry Burns to life in prison without the possibility of parole. There are some questions about whether Jerry Burns was involved in any other murders or missing persons cases. Yeah. Okay. So his first wife, Patricia, died by suicide in 2008. And his cousin went missing in December of 2013. Oh, God.

Police have said publicly that they have no reason to suspect that Jerry was involved in either of those cases. Yeah, but did they, like, make big eyes Police have said publicly that they have no reason to suspect that Jerry was involved in either of those cases. Yeah, but did they, like, make big eyes as they said it? No, no. So, like, we know what they mean by it. Okay, so there's one other weird thing, and I thought this was so weird. Hold on, hold on. Talk about the first wife.

When you say she died by suicide, was it a suspicious death? I don't know. That's all I know. She died by suicide in 2008. Okay. Make the big eyes at me if you think something's up. Oh, all right. I'm big eyes at this next thing, really. Okay. police cruiser with detective denlinger he out of nowhere brings up the case of jody who's intrude okay so jody was a news anchor who disappeared she was believed to have

been kidnapped outside of her car in her apartment complex parking lot in 1995. And she's never been found. She lived like in Mason City, Iowa, which is two hours away from where Jerry lived at that time. Oh, my God. He just brings this case up out of nowhere in the back of this police car. That's really weird. Yep. Police have declined to say whether they are investigating his possible involvement in that case.

That's what I have big eyes at. They have big eyes about it, too. Yeah. And the listeners are all listening with very big eyes. You're about to have big eyes when I tell you this next part. I've always wanted my eyes to be bigger. Are you ready? I think you need to buckle your seat've always wanted my eyes to be bigger. Are you ready? I think you need to buckle your seatbelt for this one.

Okay, what? Jerry Burns has appealed his conviction. Based on what? Well, just wait. And he got a very well-known attorney to represent him in his appeal. Would you like to guess who his attorney is? Kathleen Zellner. Sure fucking is. What the fuck? Okay, tell me more. Okay, so his appeal is based on the fact that he believes the collection of his DNA evidence was unconstitutional. When they collected his straw,

they violated his constitutional right to privacy. I thought this was pretty well established that if you leave something behind, if you discard something, then that's it. Sorry, you're done. Kathleen Zellner says that the lower court shouldn't have allowed in a warrantless extraction of Burns' DNA because it is a violation of his Fourth Amendment right. She called it an Orwellian use of police power. Yeah. I so disagree with this. Hmm. So they argue that though Burns discarded his straw, that didn't then automatically allow police to search that straw for DNA.

police to search that straw for DNA. In this brief, they said, against this backdrop, to hold that defendant abandoned his expectation of privacy in his DNA simply by going about his day is intellectually dishonest. The appeal concludes that there is insufficient evidence to convict Jerry Burns of murder because DNA is transferable and it's not enough to prove him guilty. Except that it is. Except that it is. Now, I agree that sometimes we put way too much emphasis on DNA. I get that sometimes we put way too much emphasis on DNA. I get that. But in this case, when it's on her car, it's on her. Yeah.

I don't think so. I don't either. The ACLU also argued in defense of Jerry Burns. Yeah. They said the same thing, that people have a reasonable expectation of privacy when it comes to their DNA, and the extraction and sequencing of Burns' DNA

was an unconstitutional seizure. Shit. That's so interesting and I hate it. I hate it so much. Hmm. Yeah. So this appeal went all the way to the Iowa Supreme Court. And in March of 2023, they upheld his conviction.

Okay. But it was a split decision. I bet it was. I mean, here's what I hate about it. Mm-hmm. And I really hate about it, and I really hate about it, is the more I think about it, the more I'm like, okay, yeah, I – goddammit. I do think it's kind of reasonable to say, yeah, when you go to a restaurant and you leave a straw behind, it's reasonable to expect that that will just be thrown away.

I believe that. At the same time, fuck this guy. I don't care. Yeah. But if I say fuck it to this guy, then I say it to fuck it to all the other guys. Am I preparing to say, oh, God damn it. I know. I have really complicated feelings about this.

Yeah. So the dissenters in this case and basically Kathleen Zellner and the ACLU kind of all argue the same thing. That DNA contains so much personal information that it has to be protected at a different level than other things than, say, a fingerprint or something like that. Because that's how the prosecution argues this. They're like, this is no different than collecting somebody's fingerprint. Oh, that's a good argument from the prosecution. Oh, I'm on the side of the prosecution again. I know. So the Iowa state law and Iowa Constitution has a special like exception to search and seizure laws like with specifically regarding DNA collection. If the person is under criminal investigation.

So, yes, you can't just go out collecting anybody's DNA surreptitiously that you want to. Right. But if they are under a criminal investigation, you can. Okay. And so that's ultimately, and they determined that the interpretation of the United States Constitution is the same thing. So this was not unconstitutional. Mm-hmm. And then they upheld his conviction.

Way to make me feel weird. I know. I feel so weird about it. Do you really though? Because I truly do. I felt like you. No, I truly feel so weird about it because I mean, I respect the ACLU and I respect Kathleen Zellner. And so for them to be arguing things that I'm like, bull fucking shit. It's like, well, no, that does make kind of make sense. But I don't know. I feel very complicated about it. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing. Couldn't just present a simple case, could you? I couldn't. I couldn't. Here's the bad guy. Bing, bang, boom. Then we're done. No. No. Couldn't do it. Well, thanks a lot.

Yeah. So this is interesting. So this is kind of the ACLU's take on this after the judgment came down. So they said, nobody consents to turn over our full genetic code to the government just because we involuntarily shed our DNA on items that we touch. God damn it. They're right. I know. God damn it. Our DNA can reveal incredible details about us from our proclivity to genetic diseases to our ancestry and paternity to our appearance. As the dissent points out, the majority's opinions analysis leaves Iowans vulnerable to government collection of their DNA upon a police officer's merest whim. We think this goes against the common sense and values of most Iowans. All right, Brandy.

All right. All right, Brandy. All right. The decision undermines an individual's reasonable expectation of privacy in their genetic makeup and subjects every Iowa citizen's DNA to collection and analysis by law enforcement without probable cause. Mr. Burns asserts that he is innocent of the murder of Michelle Martinko and he will continue to fight against his unjust conviction. Hmm. What do you got to say about that, Kristen? Oh, man. I know, right? Yeah.

Yeah, that's really interesting. Mm-hmm. But here's the deal. Is that, okay, they had this sample work this case without getting the straw in between don't you get the same result they got to jerry burns because of the genetic genealogy would that have been enough probable cause to secure a warrant at that time? That's what I don't know. Couldn't they just have skipped the straw step? Probably not. You think that's not enough probable cause? I don't know. I don't know. Probably not, though. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Like, that's outside of my area of expertise. I don't know how much they have to. It's inside my area of expertise. No, I feel like it's not.

Because if it was, they would have just done that way. You know? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But instead you're going after however many first cousins this one person has. Yeah. And, you know, it happens to be three, which I don't think is too terribly many, but like. Yeah.

It's complicated. Okay. On the flip side of this, the prosecution gave this statement after this result came down from the supreme court this case oh they called it an absolute relief and then they said this case has loomed over our community for over 43 years this opinion confirms the groundbreaking and superb work of law enforcement and acknowledges the hard work and dedication that generations of officers and this prosecuting team put into this case. Our hearts are with the surviving members of Michelle's family and her friends

today as this stage of the case comes to a close and justice was served once again. Janelle and John Stonebreaker, Michelle's sister and brother-in-law, say they are pleased with the outcome after all of these years. But they say they aren't celebrating because they know that the Burns family is now dealing with unimaginable pain. Yeah. I think that's really amazing of them. Yeah. Yeah.

And I can see how you would have sympathy. I mean, assuming he did this, which again, I think he absolutely did it. You can't help but feel sorry for a family who has lived what was probably a fairly normal standard life. And then all of a sudden. Yeah. Everything changes. Oof. And that is the story of the murder of Michelle Martinko.

Yeah. Also, Stonebreaker? What was? Stonebreaker, yeah. That's their last name. That's the coolest last name I've ever heard. Really cool last name. That's the coolest last name I've ever heard. It's a really cool last name. I came across this little bit of information about John Stonebreaker, actually.

So iowacoldcases.org is an organization that highlights, I don't know if the late 90s or early 2000s telling them that john stonebreaker murdered michelle martinko okay that he was the real culprit here and they passed it along to the investigators but investigators told them that john had offered up a dna sample years ago and that he had been cleared he had voluntarily voluntarily given a DNA sample and it was not him. Does John do porn? Because, I mean, John Stonebrain. That just sounds like a porn name, don't you think?

No, I think his wife was like a fifth grade teacher. I'm not sure what he did. Well, you know, just because your wife's a fifth grade teacher doesn't mean you aren't a porn star. Don't try to box people in, Brandy. I'm sorry. No, you know what? It doesn't sound like a porn name. What it sounds like is like you pick up a really stupid romance novel, and that's the love interest name.

See, I think he sounds like a strong man. Like he's doing the world's strongest man competition. Well, yeah, he's going to be buff as shit. He's lifting that Africa stone and, you know, whateverrica stone what's an africa stone africa stone it's a stone that's shaped like africa no a thousand pounds and they gotta get hold on do they have like stones for all the continents no i think it's just africa because it's like the perfect shape for them to like bear hug it Oh, that is a good hugging shape, isn't it? Hold on.

Yeah, Australia would be a mess. Africa Stone Strongman. Hold on. Let me see if I can find an image of this. Yeah. Yeah. Look at that guy holding that Africa Stone. Oh, he looks really stupid.

Here's the thing. There's no way to look cool when you hug a stone is what I'm seeing. I mean, these guys are buff as shit, but, like, they look dumb. Yeah. You know what? They look like little kids who have just won a huge teddy bear at the amusement park. And then they have to carry it around all day. How much does it weigh?

I don't know what that means. 182 kilograms. Oh, I know what that means. Isn't it 2.2? Yeah, so you double it and then you add a little something for flavor. Okay. That's. All right, anyway.

Are you not going to congratulate me? Good job. Yeah, no, I'm very impressed. Anyway. Yeah. John Stonebreaker. How do you know about the Africa? Is that like some weird Olympic thing you watch?

No, it's from the strongman competition. You never watch a strongman competition? No, but I would love to. It's fucking amazing. They move cars. They also have these like giant boulders that they have to put on like a higher and higher like stand. And I think the boulders get like heavier as they go. So they're getting heavier and you have to put them higher.

It's fucking cool. What channel do you watch? I don't know. It's like on ESPN. It's on the Ocho or something. Okay. These are channels I never go to. The Ocho, I have no idea what you're even talking about.

That's from Dodgeball. Oh. It's ESPN 8, The Ocho. Okay. That's where they aired the Dodgeball competition. Great. Okay. Glad we tracked that joke down.

Couldn't have let that one go. 385 pounds is how much the Africa stone weighs. Yeah. That's meaty. Yeah. That's meaty. Yeah. It's a real meaty one. It is. If you had to do a strongman competition, what event would you most look forward to, you think?

I got to do a leg one. That's where all my strength is. Yeah. Yeah. Can I kick a boulder? Can I do a boulder? Kick a boulder? Well, not a boulder? Kick a boulder? Well, not like a push.

You're going to break your legs. Oh, for sure. Yeah. What do I, what do I do with my legs? That's going to be like a pulling. I've never seen this. Oh, it's going to be like a pulling thing. That's all in the legs.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm going to pull the semi. I'm pulling the semi. Very good. Yep. I'm going to pull a fucking semi. Hey, if you can dream it. I like the idea of the camera zooms in on you.

You're pulling the semi. You got sweat just pouring off you. It's like, whoa, she's doing it. And you see the truck's moving. But then they pan over and I'm driving the truck. Slowly, though, just to help you along. Okay. Like, I'm really doing most of the work. No, though. Just to help you along. Okay. Like, I'm really doing most of the work.

No, you're not doing most of the work. The truck is doing most of the work. But you're doing so much. Well, that's rude. Why can't you make me believe that I'm doing most of the work? Just make me feel better about it. Listen, I'm already not doing as good as the actual strongmen. So can't you let me have just a little bit?

Brandy, what I am describing to you is us tricking the strongmen people, okay? Right, but at the end, I need a little bit, just like, yeah, it was mostly you. Don't be delusional. Don't be delusional. Let me be delusional. We are cheating in a competition of strengths. You don't get to also believe that somehow you're super strong. I can't cheat.

I can't cheat. I can't handle the cheating. So. Fine. I'm going to have to find someone else to pretend to pull that truck. Well, this has been an exciting conversation. And I think it's time to move on to answer some questions from our Discord. You know what?

Oh, my gosh. We're such hot dummies. We forgot to plug our Patreon at the beginning of this. Oh, yeah. Give the people a butt plug right now, ma'am. Everyone, join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. You get a ton of bonus episodes. 49 of them, in fact.

We tell two cases apiece on there. Wait, no. That was wrong. One case apiece on there. I was like, what? You did two fucking cases? I only did one! Yeah. So lazy. You also get all kinds of other stuff today I don't mean to make you feel

jealous but we had a zoom call with our patrons it's a good time boy did we enjoy it yeah and boy would you like to we would like you to be there next month so boy would you like to be there and boy would we like you to be there next month. Boy, would you like to be there, and boy, would we like you to be there.

There we go. You just cover all those bases. Aren't we glad I didn't tell a story today? Anyway, then we get in our Discord, and we ask, hey, do you have any questions? We're about to record, and then you ask some, and we answer some. You really nailed it. I did. I did. I did great, obviously.

Ooh, Katie0636 wants to know, what's your favorite thing to do to unwind? I have a new one that I've been doing. What is it? What are you, weirdo? What are you doing over there? I'm playing golf solitaire on my phone and it's so fun. What's golf solitaire? It's this solitaire game hold on let me show you okay so each each hole is like a little golf course okay and it's just like regular it's like

it's like this different version of solitaire where the cards are in a different layout each time. The goal is to clear them all. But each course, each hole, I'm sorry, each hole, you have a par that you have to beat. So you can't leave. You have to leave less than three, four, five cards. It's wonderful, and I love it. It's really cool. It's really cool.

So we just started watching Succession. Have you watched Succession? I love Success. It's really cool. It's really cool. So we've been, we just started watching Succession. Have you watched Succession? I love Succession, yes. Yeah. Now I'm not all caught up or anything. Yeah, we're in the middle of the second season.

Okay. But I love it and so that's what we've been doing is I watch Succession and I play golf solitaire. What about you? What do you do to unwind? You get in your hot tub?

Oh my God. I fucked up. What do you mean you fucked up? You dropped spaghetti and meatballs in your hot tub? Oh my god. I fucked up. What do you mean you fucked up? You dropped spaghetti and meatballs in your hot tub? I wish. No you know what I did? I got in it one night and like the thing you're supposed to do is after you get out you do a little chlorine and then you let it run for like 15 minutes with the top off to you know clean if your top is also off it helps it absolutely does and so i set my timer for 15 minutes went and got in the shower yeah got out of the shower 15 minutes goes by i'm not fully dressed to go outside and you know yeah the hot

tub so i was like, I'll remember. And then I hit stop on my timer. You didn't remember. Multiple days went by. Fuck. I went out with, like, the leaf blower just to kind of, like, clear things off. I come over. The hot tub was dead as a doornail.

I flew too close to the sun. I can't have nice things. So the hot tub, it does still, the jets still run, but it doesn't seem quite right. So we're going to have to get someone out. You're going to have to get a hot tub guy out here.

I've seen that porno. John Stonebreaker. John Stonebreaker is going to go fix your hot tub. And then, oh my gosh, John, I forgot my wallet. I don't have any way to pay you. And then Norm has to bang him. Yeah. That's the only way. I seriously, I was devastated.

Technically, I could get in the hot tub but I'm punishing myself I'm not allowing myself to get into the hot tub because I don't deserve it because I left I left the top off

I think it's because I was without ADD meds for about a month did you do you have them now yeah finally good

finally good yeah had to blow John Stonebreaker to get them now that the pharmacy called it was all above board Finally. Good, yeah. Had to blow John Stonebreaker to get them. Now that the pharmacy called, it was all above board. I didn't do anything untoward.

Okay, so wait. You didn't tell us what you do to unwind now that you don't have a hot tub to get into. Oh, I break my hot tub. I also blind buy disgusting fragrances on Costco.com. Okay. I was blind shopping for perfumes on Sephora. And then like, I had like three in my cart and I was like, I can't like these. What if these are bad? Yeah. So I abandoned my shopping cart. Yeah. I, I have thought about blind buying a fragrance for like a long time, but I've always been like, that's ridiculous. The risk is too damn high. I know.

Well, so I've recently discovered that three, well, no, two of my favorite scents have the same top note. And so I'm like, great, if I just look for any perfume that has that same top note, aren't I going to love it? Danger. Danger. And then I got a sample of one. And it smells like straight old lady. Yeah. So I picked it as my sample when I ordered something else from Sephora.

I was like, great. Like, this is going to be the test. Like, yeah, it smells terrible. You know what? I miss the days when we would receive magazines. Yes. You get a little. Yes.

That's what I need in my life. I know. No, I bought me a perfume after we liked how it smelled in one of magazines. Yes. You get a little. Yes. That's what I need in my life. I know. No. You bought me a perfume after we liked how it smelled in one of those. Yes. Yes. Mm-mm-mm. So anyway, everyone, I read up on Costco about this fragrance. I did the thing that Brandy said of like, oh, those top notes I like.

Oh, my God. It arrived today. I was so excited. I put some on. I smell like every church lady that has ever been. I smell my wrist and I smell every funeral I've ever attended. I smell every family wedding. funeral i've ever attended i smell every family wedding i mean anytime any woman of some age oh god i anyway that's that's enough about my problems

the point is you thought i'd i'd come out with a new signature fragrance no no i came out with a new signature return that is i am shocked I came out with a new signature return. That is, I am shocked as shit that a Tom Ford fragrance could smell that bad. See, I don't think it's that bad. Because to me it is expensive, well-coiffed old lady. Old lady. Yeah, you're right.

You're right. It's just not our taste. Yeah. Tom Ford Black Orchid. Not for me. Yeah. Turns out just not our taste. Yeah. Tom Ford, Black Orchid. Not for me. Yeah. Turns out. Persephone's mom, who announced to us on the Zoom call that she is with child, says,

Ladies, what the heck am I going to name this baby boy? How do I match Persephone? I'm here with the answer. In Kristen's honor, you have to name him Icarus. Oh, yes. And young Icarus. Oh, yes. And young Icarus will ruin hot tubs till the end of time. Can you believe I ruined my hot tub? I cannot.

Honestly, I'm shocked. I was and am devastated. Yeah, you got to get a guy out here. I know. And unfortunately, Norm is going to have to have sex with him. What if the guy doesn't even want it? Then everyone's disappointed. Except for me, because I'd be in my hot tub.

And I'd be like, I'm not going to screw this up again. Hmm. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. What? Oh, my gosh. All right. What is it?

Lazy Lesbian Biz says, Kristen, are you aware that you were the first person to bring up and sing christmas shoes on this podcast really what do you have to say about the monster you have created sir i wanna buy these shoes for my mama please it's christmas even these shoes are just i am dr frankenstein could you hurry sir Daddy says there's not much time. I'm going to spend three hours telling you about myself. She's been sick for quite a while and I know the shoes will make her smile. You might be interested in the women in my life, but don't worry about them. Mama meets Jesus tonight.

That was terrible. Oh, Doppendit says, I just discovered there's an Andy's frozen custard in Atlanta. What should I get? Okay, get yourself a snow monster. It's my favorite. All right. It's a concrete.

It's got, it got vanilla custard, strawberries, melted chocolate chips. So they get like ribboned through there, but then they harden because the custard is cold, obviously. You should get that. Kristen, what's your recommendation? I shan't tell you because you always make fun of my delicious. She's making the nastiest face. She's going to say you should get the strawberry shortcake. Well, you can't anymore because it's probably out of season.

So sorry to disappoint you. But the strawberry shortcake is quite good. It's not because the shortcake is the wrong texture. It's like cornbread, not like pound cake. Who doesn't like cornbread? In my ice cream fuck off the ice cream can hear you brandy oh a federal court's dozen wants to know can you whistle can you whistle no you can't i can whistle but only like traditional like pretty quiet whistle lisa my

stepmom she can do this crazy whistle that can be heard from miles away where she puts like her two fingers in her mouth and like it is wild it's so fucking loud it amazes me how'd she learn how to do that i don't know you don't know the backstory no i think her dad can do it too and so he taught her maybe all right yeah i bought it from levi oh my god it's a denim joke yep yep people didn't get it, but now they understand. Uh-huh. Ooh, okay. Antihistamine asks, what's something you should have known but weren't made aware of until much too late in life?

For example, I thought Egypt was a continent until I was 16. Okay, I just learned this a couple years ago. And it makes so much sense if you know the properties of math. Okay. Percentages are interchangeable. So 8% of 25 is also 25% of 8, which is much easier to calculate. Oh. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, I've known that for a really long time. Okay. I just learned that like two years ago. Say that again. So percentages are interchangeable. So 8% of 25 is the same as 25% of 8, which is way easier to calculate. Much easier to calculate.

All right. Very good. Very good. Very good. Well, I've already told mine on this podcast. It's that I didn't know the difference between turkey and ham until I was much too old. In fairness to me, that's a pretty advanced concept. Okay. Should we read some Supreme Court inductions?

Yeah, let's do it. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. And then we will induct you and this time we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. Katie Peterson. Keanu Reeves. Megan O'Donnell. Joey McIntyre. Katie Peterson. Keanu Reeves. Megan O'Donnell. Joey McIntyre. Amanda S.

David Lee Roth. Stacey Cathers. Jeremy Jackson. Veronica G. Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Erin Hewitt. Ben Savage and Danielle Fishel. I wanted to be in a thruple.

Well, sure. With Cory and Topanga. Amazing. Lisa Wild sure. With Cory and Topanga. Amazing. Lisa Wilder. Nick Carter. Patricia Willis. Cam Gigandet. It's pretty close.

What is it? Gigandet is how I think it's pronounced. I'm not positive. Let me say that again. Cam Gigandet. From Twilight. Kristen. Nick Lachey.

Martha Dominguez. JTT. Chelsea Thomas. Ryder Strong. Morgan Boulanger. Chase Crawford. She said it was pronounced with a French pronunciation, folks. So, obviously, Brandi did a bang-up job.

Sarah Palkowitz. Devin Sawa. Ashley Seat. Henry Cavill. Dee Dee Adams. Link from The Legend of Zelda Games. All right. Melissa Laurent.

Shamar Moore. Andrea Steele. Patrick Swayze. Kelsey Funk. Zach Hansen. Sophie Mellie. Benji from Good Charlotte. Kate Crane, Axl Rose, Amanda Taylor, Jason Bayman. I think you mean Bateman. Gosh, Amanda. Jeez. Kara Wan, Brandon Boyd,

Charlotte Moore, Michael Jackson from the You Rock My World video. In parentheses. I know. I know. Zoe Benoit. Tim McGraw and Cameron Diaz. Specifically in the mask, in that red dress. Yes. Totally understandable.

We all get it. We do. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen.

And then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week. When I'll be an expert on a whole new topic. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Dateline, an episode of 48 Hours, ChillingCrimes.com,

Little Village Magazine, the Des Moines Register, CBS2, Iowa News, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go. Read their stuff. Woo!