Let's Go To Court! - 264: The Fager Family Murders

Episode Date: August 16, 2023

Bill Butterworth claimed he had no idea what happened. He awoke in a haze, hundreds of miles from home. He’d driven from Kansas to Florida in a car that wasn’t his. The vehicle belonged to a family whose house he’d been working on. But how had he come into possession of their car? Then, Bill says he heard a horrifying story on the radio. Phil Fager had been shot dead in his home. His daughters, Kelli and Sherri, had been killed as well. Their killer had not been found. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Kansas Trails: Sedgwick County” genealogytrails.com “Wichita murder suspect in custody” by AP, The Salina Journal “Suspect charged in family slayings” upi.com “Methods described by police” by Kaye Schultz, The Wichita Eagle “Prosecution rests case in Butterworth murder trial” by Jim Cross, The Wichita Eagle “Most self-professed amnesiacs fake it, psychologist testifies” by Kaye Schultz, The Wichita Eagle “Wichita triple-slaying case now up to jury” by Lynn Byczynski, The Kansas City Times “Jury weighs evidence in triple slaying” by AP, The Kansas City Star “Butterworth acquitted in deaths” by Bill Hirschman, The Wichita Eagle "Police report on Face case still in works” by Jim Cross, The Wichita Eagle “State of Kansas v. William T. Butterworth” “1988 murder trial still haunts jury foreman” by Roy Wenzl, The Wichita Eagle “The Fager Murders” episode, The Generation Why Podcast YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 49+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about amnesia. Ooh.

Yeah. This happened to every major character in every TV show in the 90s. Yep. I am ready for this. You get ready for this. I'm convinced it's not real, though. Oh, you don't think amnesia is real? Much like depression.

No, depression very real. Or ovarian cysts. Also not real. Also very real. Do you want to talk about what's been going on with you, ma'am? Everyone, everyone. It's a beautiful life. Today. Of course, Sina is dressed like a golden girl today.

I am absolutely dressed like a golden girl. I've got a three-piece loungewear ensemble in a lovely green, very monochromatic. I have a heating pad over my lap. Yeah. I'm looking good. Yeah. I'm looking good. Yeah. I'm looking good. Hey, gang, remember that really fun time three years ago when my ovaries exploded?

Yeah. My whole vagina attacked me. That's what the doctors said. That was your official medical diagnosis? You'll see. She was attacked by her own vagina. Official medical diagnosis. You'll see.

She'll be attacked by her own vagina. Yeah, so something's happening. I was at the ER yesterday. Yeah. We're not sure what's going on. Right. Right. So, I mean, possibly my ovarian cysts are bursting or whatever.

Probably not as bad as last time. Definitely not as bad as last time. But still sucks. I'm mentioning... Was there a knock at the door? No, that was probably the dogs running all over the place. Oh, it was like a nose at the door, you think? It's a mess in this house, Brandi. If you'll notice, I didn't make my bed today.

I didn't actually notice at all. If you'll notice, I'm dressed like Blanche today. You are dressed like... Yeah, I did notice that. You are dressed like that. I did notice that. Anyway, I mention this only because some people might feel like I'm not really bringing the thunder to the episode. And I just want you to know that it's my ovaries fault. Okay.

Not my ovaries. It's my ovarian cysts fault. Yeah. Your ovaries are just in their mind and their own fucking business. Exactly. Yeah. Doing what ovaries do. Laying eggs.

And then these cysts are insisting on being there. It is kind of weird when you think about it. Like your little ovaries are like little chickens inside your body. Little hens just laying eggs once a month. Yeah. Is that all you got there? That's all I got. Okay, great. That's the whole thing. Anyway, I'm fine. I'm a brave little soldier. Oh, don't cry for me. Oh, Argentina.

You don't know what to do with this, do you? I don't. I don't. I'm uncomfortable. Why are you uncomfortable? No, I'm just kidding. I'm not uncomfortable. No, but I think you're going to like this because you recently mentioned that you thought amnesia would be more prevalent in your life. Yeah, so someone asked us a question like what was something you thought would be more prevalent in your life? And they said quicksand based on cartoons, which I agree. I thought for sure we'd all encounter quicksand multiple times in our lives. Yeah. I said that i thought you would catch on fire all the time because they teach you to stop drop and roll which they don't

even teach people anymore because they want people casey told me the reason and now i can't remember it you tuned her out didn't you she said actually i read it she sent it to me in a text and now i cannot for the life of me remember what she said casey she doesn't read your text i did read it casey only send pictures, please. That's what we're dealing with over here. If you send me like a nice graphic about why they've discontinued. Not too many words. Not too many words, please.

Yeah, and I said amnesia. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you a story about amnesia today. Will you mention Michelle Tanner? No. Ooh, but I did like that episode of The Rose. Everyone liked that. She fell off the horse.

Yes. She had her head on a rock. Yeah. Yeah. She was a new Michelle. Mm-hmm. Yep. All right.

Let's start your story. All right. Shout out to genealogytrails.com, which is the weirdest website I've ever found. But it had a collection. Okay, this is what it says at the top, okay? Okay. The website is genealogytrails.com. At the top, picture it if you will.

First of all, let me paint a picture of the page layout for you, okay? I already know what it looks like. This is a real old school web page layout for you okay i already know what it looks like this is a real old school web page layout there is a background that looks like a knotty pine paneling yes uh-huh excellent uh-huh and then a front that is a um a pale yellow yes box filled with. At the top it says Kansas Trails dedicated to free genealogy. And then there's a buffalo next to it. Sure. And then. What song played when you pulled up this one?

No song. But I do tend to have my computer volume muted. That's a shame. And then for reasons that I don't know, at this particular website is a collection of articles about this case. We best not question it. Exactly. So shout out to that weird website. How did you find that website?

Just Googling the guy. Yeah, Googling the person in the case. All right. Okay. Okay. Also shout out to the Wichita Eagle and the Kansas City Star. Most of this comes from their reporting and the court record. All right.

You ready? I am. I really like how you've got your head cocked. Yeah. Like, oh, boy, here we go. Oh, boy. Okay. Okay.

Mary Fager had no idea what she was about to walk into when she arrived home on December 31st, 1987. I'm going to stop you right there, Kristen. I didn't say a goddamn thing. I want to give a form of disclaimer for this episode. And old-timey disclaimer does not really seem to fit. It's just like a time period disclaimer. So because of the time period that this happened in, it happened in the late 80s, not great coverage available on it. I can find old newspapers through newspapers.com, found a bunch of good stuff there.

But no, like one overarching coverage of the whole thing. Also, lots of contradictory information out there. So I went with, you know, what seemed to be the most common across multiple sources. Brandy, we have the old-timey disclaimer for a reason. I know, but I personally will be offended by calling a case from 1987 old-timey because I'm from 1986. What, Kristen, what's that face you're making? It's a beautiful face. Okay.

Jealousy might be what you're feeling. Yes. Anyway. Desire is another thing. No, that's for sure not it. Definitely feeling. Super horny. Also not it.

Another option for you to have. And it's a judgment-free zone. Okay, what are we at? A plant fitness right now? We are, in fact, in a planet fitness. Comedy live from Planet Fitness. That. We are, in fact, in a Planet Fitness. Comedy live from Planet Fitness. That would be terrible. Why would it be terrible?

You just have gym noises in the background. Yeah, no, it wouldn't be good podcasting. Also, it would smell bad for us. The people wouldn't smell it, but we would smell it. Depends on which day you go. Pizza day. Pizza day, it smells funky. Yes.

As fucking. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So we've settled it day. It smells funky. Yes. Fucking. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So we we've settled it then. We won't. We will not be podcasting live from Planet Fitness. Also, you've been asked not to return after that Velcro incident with your bra.

So everyone loves it when my tits go flying. I would never be asked to leave. If anything, I'd be asked to stay permanently. Oh, okay. Anyway, ma'am will bring you slices of pizza if you just stay on that treadmill topless. They've got a guy fanning you. Yeah. Yeah.

Except, you know, okay, so I'd Velcro the bra back together again, Humpty Dumpty style. And all the king's horses and all the king's men. All the boobs and all the bobs come back together again. I think, what is it, Old Faithful, that like every half hour, every hour it bursts. I feel like, yeah, I couldn't be tits out all the time. It's going to be like a titty countdown. Yeah, a titty countdown. Okay.

Do they have like a clock on the wall? Of course they do. Of course they do. And they have an informational DVD that they play in the locker room. So people come in, they check the clock and they're like, fuck, I just missed it. I got another 37 minutes to see that bitch's titty. A bitch? That bitch's titty. First bitch? That bitch's titty.

First of all, I show both titties. Oh, shit. It's both tits out. It's both tits out. Okay. And also, I have never in my life been called a bitch. Please. Please.

Please. Please. Please! Please! I am known worldwide for my sweetness. Anyway, yes, there will be a DVD. It won't be shown on a flat screen TV. It'll be on one of those rolly wheel jobbies.

Okay. Yeah. Sure. And the quality will be terrible because it will have been played so many times. I can tell you're done with this bit. Yeah. I am not.

Let me stop you right there. Anyway, back to the case, which I've done one sentence of and I'm going to do that one sentence again. Whose fault is it? It's my own fault. It is my own fault.

Not this bitch here. Here we go, bitch. Now we're just published. Mary Fager had no idea what she was about to walk into when she arrived home on December 31st, 1987. So long ago.

As she pulled her car into the driveway of her family's brick ranch-style home located in an affluent neighborhood on the east side of Wichita, Kansas. Do you want the address? I have it. Yes, of course I want the address. Okay, the house has been updated extensively, though. That's all right.

7-0-1-5, East 14th Street, North. What? Wichita, Kansas. That seems like too many directions. Okay, the Zillow listing has a bunch of pictures. Okay, okay. Currently not for sale. All right.

Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I've always liked a brick ranch. Yeah, me too. Oh, yeah. This has been... This is very like... I it i know it's not

surprising at all it's very of the current times everything is gray and white yes uh-huh sleek open concept okay i'm going through the they've got the bed in front of the window i don't like that i don't like that either But it might be the only option. It might be the only wall that works. For the layout. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

I like it. I can't believe you weren't going to show me this house. Well, okay, so I pulled it up, and then I was like, well, it's been fucking updated. So, but yeah, that's the house, okay? All right. Didn't look like this at the time. So that's what update means. Thank you.

So when Mary pulled into the driveway, she did notice that her husband's gray Volkswagen Rabbit, which is a car. I just burped. Okay, great. I don't think you can blame that on your ovaries, Kristen. How did you know? Did I have a twinkle in my eye? Excuse me, everyone. I was in the emergency room yesterday, so I'm allowed to burp and fart with impunity?

Is that the word? I don't know, but it sounds good. If it's the wrong word, know that it's my ovarian cyst that is making me dumb. Okay. Okay, great. Anyway, so she noticed her husband's car is gone, but she didn't think much of it. What kind of car was it? You said it was a rabbit?

A Volkswagen Rabbit. It's a four-door Volkswagen sedan. All right. That's all I know. Great. It was gray in color. Thank you for saying gray in color like you're a police officer. You're welcome. So Mary had been in Emporia

for the previous couple of days visiting her parents like between Christmas and New Year's while her husband Philip had stayed home with their daughters nine-year-old Sherry and 16-year-old Kelly. But when Mary walked through the front door she discovered a horrible scene. Her husband Philip lay dead, face down, on the living room floor. He'd clearly been shot, and from what Mary could tell, it looked like he'd been shot

as soon as he walked in the door. He still had his overcoat on. Mm-hmm. Mary ran from the house and sought help from a neighbor who called the police, and before long, Mary was whisked away.

Whisked away. What happened in your mouth? I'm not sure. I think you've got a KitchenAid in there. Mary was whisked away to the police station and investigators descended on the Fager family home. At the station, Mary told police that she had noticed that the Volkswagen was missing from the driveway and she assumed that that meant that her daughters were safe

somewhere, that they'd been away from the house when Philip had been killed. That's what she hoped, anyway. Oh, my God. Before long, though. Oh, my God. My voice just cracked like I was going through puberty. Congratulations, Brandy. I'm finally a woman. You might notice hair popping up in strange places. Like your chin. Unpredictable urges. Sorry. Okay.

You don't have to apologize for your urges, Brandy. No, stop it. All right. No, this part's really bad. No, I know. is brandy no stop it all right no this part's really bad no i know inappropriate time for me to be cracking my voice like a prepubescent boy well i wish you would get it together ma'am sorry before long though police at the scene made a horrific discovery when police entered the fagers newly built sunroom on the back of their house, so they've added like an addition. Are you about to tell me that children were killed in this case? I am.

I am going to tell you that. I'm about to throw you out of my house. Okay. All right. So the Fagers had recently put in a sunroom on the back of their house. And then in that sunroom, they'd installed a hot tub. And so the police entered that sunroom area and they noticed that the cover on the family's hot tub was a bit out of place. It was kind of lifted in the middle.

Oh, my God. And so they pulled it back to investigate. And when they did, they discovered the bodies of Kelly and Sherry floating inside the hot tub. Oh, my God. How old are they? Nine and 16. Oh, my God. 16 and nine. Oh, my God. How old are they? Nine and 16. Oh, my God. 16 and nine. Oh, my God.

They always had their names. Yeah. Kelly, so she's the 16-year-old. Oh. She was nude. Yeah. And Sherry, the nine-year-old, was dressed. Okay, they describe it in the official court record as light clothing.

Other places have taken that to mean pajamas. Yeah, that's what I would take it to mean. So she was dressed in pajamas and her wrists were bound behind her back with electrical tape. Oh, my God. So the police make this discovery. They've got Mary down at the police station. They actually call Mary's parents when they make this discovery. They ask them if they would come to town because they live in Poria. It's about an hour away.

And be the ones to tell Mary what they have discovered. And they do. Yeah. I've never heard of this before. Yeah. I would think they'd want them there for moral support, but not for them. No, they asked them to come and make the notification to her. Wow.

So her parents did. They drove to the police station. And when they got there, they spoke to her and they let her know that, yeah, her whole family had been murdered. And in a horrific way. Yeah. Mary was, oh, Jesus Christ. Mary was not Jesus Christ. No.

But Brandy did bang her watch in the loudest way possible. I punish myself by taking it off now. I hope you've learned your lesson. I have. You love it when things go wrong. I do. I do. I really love it.

So Mary was, of course, devastated. And when she was asked by the police if there was anyone who would want to harm her family, Mary said she had no idea. The Fager family lived a pretty simple life. Mary and Philip had met working at Boeing. I wasn't able to find what Mary did at Boeing. But Philip was an accountant in the military division. Okay. And they met working there.

Mary had actually been married previously. And she had had Kelly in that relationship. And then she'd met Philip. They'd gotten married and Philip had adopted Kelly. And then they had Sherry together. The Fager family did really well. They lived in a nice home. They even, from what I found, looks like they owned some rental property.

But by all accounts, they were really well-liked and well-respected. So Philip's dad is quoted in one of the articles that I read as saying that his son was really particular. He kept a very neat house and he liked things a certain way. And so. Yeah, an accountant. Yes, it makes total sense. The stereotype, an accountant. Yes, it makes total sense. The stereotype of an accountant. Yes, absolutely.

Absolutely. But nobody had like, oh, of course, this was blah, blah, blah. They've been, you know, pissed at the figures forever. Like, you know, nothing like that comes up. Someone does something this awful, you would think there would be like. Exactly. A top suspect. Yeah, yes.

So back at the scene, police determined that the murders. Like a top suspect immediately. Yeah, yes. So back at the scene, police determined that the murders... Who was Mary's first husband? I don't know. So I didn't find anything about her first husband other than something mentioning she was married before and that she had had Kelly in that relationship. Yeah, gotcha. That's all I found. As far as I know, he wasn't in the picture in any way. Okay. So back at the scene, police determined that the murders had occurred 24 to 36 hours

before Mary had come home. This was largely based on the newspaper delivery. So Mary had come home around noon on Thursday and Thursday's paper was still in the driveway. But Wednesday's paper was inside the house. There was no sign of forced entry at the home. And the front door was locked when Mary had gotten there. She'd had to unlock it. Police were pretty tight-lipped initially about, like, the condition of the scene or, like, what had happened at the home when they were initially reporting on this. So they said that there had been no sign of a break-in, that the house had not been ransacked, that there was nothing missing. This was clearly not a robbery.

But that there were some signs of struggle inside the house. They also did announce publicly that they had no reason to suspect that the murders had any connection to any other unsolved murders in the area. BTK. At that time. Exactly. Oh, my God. Yes. So at this time. How did I not put that together? Yeah. OK. So at this time, BTK, which I've covered on an episode before. Yeah. Very early episode. Which means it's great. which I've covered on an episode before. Very early episode.

Which means it's great. Yeah. Okay. So he would have still been not caught, but not necessarily. Bind, torture, kill, serial killer in Wichita, Kansas. Yes, serial killer in Wichita, Kansas. At this point, he would have been dormant. He wasn't committing murders at this time. Okay.

But he was still out there. They hadn't caught him. They wouldn't catch him for like another almost 20 years. Yeah. So they't caught him. They wouldn't catch him for like another almost 20 years. Yeah. So they say that publicly, like no reason to. But this sounds like him. I mean, right? One of the children is bound.

Yeah. And he was known to kill families. Yeah. This sounds exactly like him. Okay. So like four days after the murders took place, the police intercepted a letter that was sent to Mary Fager that was purportedly written by BTK. Oh, my God. OK.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it said, OK, there's a lot of debate about what this letter actually says because it was as, as far as I can tell, has never been made public. But people on the inside who have leaked stuff, the gist of the letter is believed to be, I didn't kill your family, but I do admire whoever did it. Wow. And then he did a sketch of the youngest daughter being bound. Oh, God.

of the youngest daughter being bound. Oh, God. Next to the hot tub. So for years, this was written off as just like somebody being creepy or whatever. Why would that be? Oh, God. And then when they did actually catch Dennis Rader all those years later, he notoriously kept copies of every letter that he ever sent. Yeah. And they found this letter in every letter that he ever sent. Yeah.

And they found this letter in his possession. It really was from him. Yeah, I believe it. Yeah. He was bold. Yeah. Yeah. But he didn't commit this murder, at least.

He never took, he never claimed it. Admitted it? Yeah, he never admitted it. And he admitted to murders that they didn't even, hadn't even connected him to. So it's very unlikely that he committed this murder. Okay. Anyway, so sorry for that little tangent. I think that's nuts, right?

No, that's wild. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Also, the drawing was deemed to be inaccurate. So like they, that was another thing. Okay, because that was going to be my next question. Yes, the drawing was not accurate to the scene at all.

And so it was another reason that the police believed. So really, I think that Mary never even got to see this letter or maybe they showed it. So the police like staked out the house for several days

after these murders to see if somebody would return to the scene or something like that. Right. And that's how they intercepted this letter because they were going

through all the mail and everything. And so I don't know that Mary ever got possession of this letter. I think the police took it. Good. Yeah. Yes.

I would not. Oh, my gosh. Can you imagine opening that? No. Okay. So obviously autopsies were performed and the autopsies determined that Philip, Kelly, and Sherry Fager were all killed through different methods. Really? Yes. I think this is so bizarre.

Philip was shot twice in the back. One shot was at point-blank range, and one of the bullets pierced his heart and passed through his chest. My God. Kelly Fanger, she's the 16-year-old. She had been drowned in the hot tub. And Sherry, she's the 16-year-old. She had been drowned in the hot tub. And Sherry, she's the nine-year-old. She had been bound with electrical tape, her hands behind her back. Then she'd been

strangled with that electrical tape nearly to death. Oh, my God. And then she was placed in the hot tub where she ultimately drowned. The coroner said essentially she took like one breath. Oh my God. In the hot tub and drowned. It's horrible. Yeah. Yeah. I think this is so bizarre that there are three very different methods of murder here. It seems less bizarre to me now that you've explained it. It's like, to me, it's someone who's very cowardly. So they're not going to fight the adult. They're going to shoot him in the back twice. Yeah. And they will torture the children and reserve the most torture for the youngest child. Yeah. Yeah.

Ugh. So the two girls' bodies had been in the hot tub, which was at 92 degrees, for more than a day. So placing their time of death was difficult. Ultimately, though, the coroner determined that Kelly had died about four hours before Sherry. So the 16-year-old died four hours before the nine-year-old. Could they really make that determination that accurately? That's what the coroner determined. I don't know. Okay. Yeah. So this was actually something that the investigators kept quiet. They kept this completely out of the press that there was such a time difference between when the two daughters were killed. They thought that this would play an important role in catching the killer.

There was actually even like a moment where one of the lead investigators on the case is talking to the press about it. And he's like, we're not going to talk about time of death in these cases because that's our ace in the hole. Why would you say that? Yeah. And then honestly once it gets to try like it really is a nothing thing at trial but yeah i guess the thing is like you never know what's gonna be yes you're ace in the hole but god wouldn't that almost sounds like sitcom dumb yeah you've got the one character who says something really stupid just to move the plot forward. Yeah. Okay.

So while Mary Fager didn't have any idea of who would want to harm her family, she did tell investigators that there was someone else who should have been at the house the day the murders occurred. Okay. His name was Bill Butterworth. And he was like a builder, contractor, handyman kind of thing. And the Fagers had hired him to do their sunroom addition. He was nearing the end of the project, but Mary told officers that he would have been at the house working on the addition on December 30th and that the family had trusted him so much that they had given him a key to the house so that he can come and go as needed. So police went to work tracking down Bill Butterworth, only to find that his wife had actually reported him missing the same day the Fager family's bodies were discovered. Well, all right.

So William T. Butterworth, or Bill, as he was known to his friends and me. Is this man a friend to you, Brandi? He's not. He's not. Big fan. Yeah. Okay. So he was a contractor who lived in the Wichita area for about 10 years.

He'd worked for a company. He was actually like a retired military guy. And then he worked for this company called sunrooms of kansas installing you guessed it sunrooms wow but the company had decided to change directions and had stopped like installing sunrooms and they'd gone the manufacturing route so they were only manufacturing sunrooms and so bill had gone and talked to his boss and he'd gotten his blessing to start his own company, Sunrooms of Wichita. Wow. And so he would install the sunrooms his old company was manufacturing. Okay. Yeah. Reportedly, Bill was very good at what

he did, but times were tough. So there was a housing market crash in the 80s, similar to the 2008 housing crash. And as a result of that, there was a recession at this time. And during that recession, not a lot of people were putting sunrooms on their houses as kind of a luxury item, not a real necessity. And so Bill— May I just say I think that's a stupid name for a company. Sun Rooms of Wichita. I do. I do too.

I think you've boxed yourself in every way possible. Absolutely. I do one thing in one place. Yes. I totally agree. All right. Yeah. Okay.

I'm glad we've decided this. Yeah. I'm glad too. So apparently Bill had run into some financial difficulties. So he was a married man. He had three kids. He had a three-year-old and six-month-old twins. Oh, my God.

But by all accounts, he was a family man. His family was like his whole world. He was a church guy. Also was BTK. He sure was. He was the deacon. Also was BTK. He sure was. He was the deacon at his church. So you're absolutely right. But other than owing some back taxes during this time when his business was really struggling, like he had never been in any kind of legal trouble.

But police needed to track him down. Right. They put out a be on the lookout for his work van as well as the Fager's Volkswagen. Bill's work van was actually located the next day, Friday, January 1st at a McDonald's about seven blocks from the Fager home. Oh. And the keys were still inside. Okay. Kelly Fager actually happened to work at that McDonald's as well. Really? Yes. But there was no sign of Bill. So on January 2nd, police announced publicly for the first time that they were looking for Bill Butterworth in connection to the Fager family murders.

As far as I can tell, they didn't like say like he's a suspect in the case. I think they said he would have been at the home working and we need to locate him. Wink, wink. Sure would like to find him. And so they started looking for him. Okay. So they've got to be on the lookout for his van. They find it.

And then they've got it on the Volkswagen. No luck. So on the second they announce they're looking for him, on the third, the police get a phone call from a family member of Bill Butterworth. And they say, hey, Bill has made contact with his wife. He is speaking to her on the phone right now. Whoa. Yes. And so the police, this is nutso bananas to me. I can't even believe this is possible. OK, please call up the Wichita phone company and they're like, trace that call. And they do in real time. They trace the call to Stewart, Florida, which is like, I don't know, 100 miles north of Miami or something. Okay. And they call up the police in Stewart, Florida, and they're like, hey, this guy is talking on this payphone. Please go see if you can find him.

Wow. And they do. They go to this payphone outside of a Howard Johnson motel, a hojo, if you will. And he's still standing there talking to his wife. Holy shit. On the phone. Yeah. He still standing there talking to his wife. Holy shit. On the phone. Yeah. He sees the police come up to him.

He looks very confused. Yeah, and who could blame him? And he gets off the phone and he looks at the police officer and the guy's like, I'm taking you into custody. And Bill's like, okay, what for? What's going on? And Bill's like, OK, what for?

What's going on? And they're like, well, you're wanted in connection to a triple murder in Kansas. And Bill is very confused. Next to Bill on the street, though, is the Fager's Volkswagen. And in his pocket is the keys to their car. Yeah. Yeah. So they take him into custody.

They take him down to the station. And he sits down with the police for a four hour interview. Apparently, his wife called the police station during this four hours and said you are not to interview my husband without a lawyer present no that's not how that works and he has to be the one to say that so apparently also word got out about this and a public defender called the police station and was like do i need to come down for this guy and they're like no no he hasn't asked for anything so we're good. And so Bill sat down with the police for four hours and told them everything he knew,

which was nothing. Okay. He said he had no memory after December 30th, the morning of December 30th, 7 a.m. He remembers getting up, getting ready for work, kissing his wife goodbye, heading to the Fager house, and then nothing else. He said the next thing he remembered was like snapping back to reality, finding himself in Florida, and having no idea how he got there.

Convenient. Mm-hmm. It's pretty convenient. So he called his wife. So he called his wife, he says, after he heard a radio report, which this is nuts to me too. Okay. Okay, so he's in Florida. Right.

He hears a report on the radio about the Fager family murder in Wichita, Kansas. I know it's a different time, so I'm guessing news was reported way more on the radio than... Who knows? Yeah, okay. It seems wild that that story would be talked about on Florida radio, but yeah. Well, I mean, a triple murder... Maybe because of the time, maybe because of the potential for BTK. Yeah, and a triple murder.

We're on the lookout for something. Yes. Okay. So he says he hears that report about the Fagers, and that's why he called his wife. He is extremely emotional during this interview. He is heard sobbing, like, from the hallway. People can hear him. People in the police department can hear him sobbing.

He just keeps saying, I don't know. I don't know what happened. I can't remember anything. I can't remember anything. And so at that point, they take him into custody and he is charged just with stealing the Fager's car, Grand Theft Auto. And then the next day, he is charged with the murders of the Fager family. And they begin the process of extraditing him from Florida to Kansas. But he ends up not fighting the extradition and they bring him back.

What do you think about this? Him not remembering anything. I mean, my assumption is it's bullshit. Partly, I guess I need to know more about the timeline, but partly I'm thinking if I all of a sudden come to consciousness and I'm in another state, wouldn't you call home right away? But instead his story is he puts on the radio and is just chilling. And then all of a sudden he hears something disturbing and calls home. Yep. Yeah. Says the next thing he remembered was hearing the news broadcast about the Fagers.

And so he called his wife. So I'd want to hear the wife's story. Yeah. So he's extradited back to Kansas. He still is telling the same story. He can't remember anything. He doesn't know anything. He does not believe that he's involved in these murders in And he just kind of like nods his head and says, I guess. He doesn't necessarily deny it, but he doesn't say, yeah, I did it. He just says, I mean, I guess I could be, you know, because he can't remember anything according to him.

So he's charged. I mean, he gets back to Wichita and he is assigned a public defender because he can't afford his own attorney. And he is assigned Richard Ney, who at this time is like a brand new defense attorney. But he would go on to become like recognized as one of the best defense attorneys in the state of Kansas. Apparently, he even for a brief time represented BTK after. Oh, gross. Yeah, after he was apprehended. I don't think he's the one that took him all the way through his trial, but he did briefly represent him.

Anyway, so he sits down with his public defender and he's like, OK, you know, they're having these meetings trying to figure out what the play is going to be, what the defense is going to be. And he's like, I can't remember anything. I can't. I have no memories. And he is sticking to that story. I have nothing. And so then he asks his public defender, Richard Ney, if he can see a psychologist, if he can go, you know, see if there's any way to help reclaim these memories that he can't access for whatever

reason. And so Richard Ney consults with some kind of psychiatrist initially, and then he gets a referral to Dr. Robert Pace, who is a licensed clinical psychologist, psychologist, I think I dropped the T. You did. And an expert in hypnosis. Oh, hypnosis. Okay. Yeah. And so Dr. Pace says that he believes that with several sessions of hypnosis that he can help Bill Butterworth recover his memories. And so Bill Butterworth goes through 20 sessions with Dr. Pace over the next four months. Wow. He's only hypnotized during 10 of them. So the other 10. OK, so here's the interesting thing about this. I mean, I think the whole thing's interesting. But so Dr. Pace did not record these sessions in any way, which I think is very odd. He didn't video record them. He didn't

audio record them. He just took very detailed notes during them. And so that's stuff that has been turned over the court. So we have some of those notes. And so there were times where Bill was too anxious or too emotional to be able to be hypnotized. And so they would just have like a basic therapy session or talk about memories that he'd recovered in other sessions during those. But they did 10 sessions where Bill Butterworth was put under hypnosis to try and reclaim these memories. And it worked, if you believe Bill Butterworth and Dr. Pace. I know so little about hypnosis. I know nothing about hypnosis.

Is that even allowed in court? We'll get there. Oh, OK. OK. So they do these 20 sessions total, 10 sessions of hypnosis. Right. You know, gets a little bit of stuff, you know, kind of each session. And then kind of the over the end result of it is that this is what he comes up with as as his reclaimed memories of what happened that day that the Fager family

was murdered. Bill Butterworth said that he had been building the family's sunroom and that that day he'd come to work just like normal. He'd worked till lunch. He'd spoken to Philip Fager for a few minutes before he went to lunch. And then when he came back to finish working the rest of the day, he came back, he went to go into the sunroom and he noticed that he could smell chlorine and that the sunroom windows like had condensation on them. Right. So he thought that meant that somebody was in the hot tub. And so he didn't see anybody. He didn't hear anyone necessarily, but he believed that meant someone was in the hot tub and he thought it would be inappropriate for him to go down, not knowing if it was one of the girls or what. And he ran into a couple of people that he knew there, including William Dotz, who was a retired police captain. Had a couple of conversations with a couple of different people there.

Purchased some clothes after Christmas sale. And then returned to the house somewhere around 4.30 that afternoon after killing a couple hours. When he got back to the house, the lights were off. He thought this was really odd. But he went in anyway. He went into the sunroom. And he saw Sherry's body in the hot tub. He tried to pull her out. And as he was doing so, he realized that she was dead.

And so he let go of her and he ran up. So I'm having a really hard time picturing how this sunroom is because the way it is described, it must be two stories. And I don't understand how that works. But they keep saying in all of these articles and even way it is described, it must be two stories. And I don't understand how that works. But they keep saying in all of these articles and even in the court record, it says that the hot tub is in the basement of the sunroom. I don't know how the sunroom has a basement, but this is just what I'm being told. So he then runs up the stairs to go to the main part of the house to get help. And he discovers Philip dead on the floor.

He goes to run out of the house and then stops and decides he's going to call for help, call 911. He goes – he kind of comes back in, goes to grab the phone, and that's when he heard some kind of noise come from the basement. And at that point, he says he panicked. He was really scared. And he grabbed Philip's keys. They were laying on the floor next to his body. And he ran out of the house. He got into his own van and tried to start it with Phillips keys, realized what he had done, grabbed his stuff, including the clothes that he had just purchased at the mall, threw it in the Fager's Volkswagen and drove away. You're going to have to say words, Kristen. People can't see that face you're making. Okay. Hmm. Good grief. Okay.

So the thing about the time period where they're talking about a four-hour difference, that really works in his favor. I mean, if that truly has not gotten out to anyone, which it seems like there must be a leak in the police force, I mean, maybe a million leaks. If that truly stayed quiet, then that's huge. The story matches that timeline, essentially. But to me, it's a really fucking weird story. Oh, I totally agree. It is a weird story. Oh, I totally agree. It is a bizarre story. But part of me. So I want to know more about this guy's work life. Yeah. Because I'm kind of thrown by the idea of first

of all, I totally get Oh, someone might be in the hot tub. I don't want to go back there. That might be kind of weird. But at the same time, you are there for a job. For a job, exactly. So do you really just leave for several hours? Or do you just shout, hey, you know. Yeah. Coming down. Yeah. Or like, I'll be, I'm going to be here working with my tools for the next couple minutes. And I'm going to be, you know, something like that.

Like, that just seems weird that like, oh, someone's in the hot tub. Therefore, I will that. Like, that just seems weird that, like, oh, someone's in the hot tub. Therefore, I will leave. Yeah. And then the other thing I'm thinking is, like, okay, so he goes to a mall, which, like, if you're trying to establish an alibi, what better place? You're going to be seen by a ton of people. You buy something, so you have the receipt. He has a receipt for something he purchased there. He ran into someone who is a former police captain who

corroborates his story, verifies the time that he says he was there, and also says that he didn't seem shaken up or, you know, didn't seem like he was acting weird, didn't seem like he just murdered a whole family, like nothing of that nature. Yeah. I also think it's interesting that, like, you know, he's so frazzled he grabs the wrong keys. But he still manages to grab his new clothes from the mall. Right. That's not necessarily an indication of anything. Right. But to me, if I'm being super skeptical, like, yeah okay he went to the mall to establish an alibi

the receipt is a huge part of that then yeah you're not just gonna let no your clothes your clothes sit yeah in a van where you know someone could take them or you know they could disappear yeah i don't know i find this really weird and also if this guy's story is true, then this is the saddest thing. No shit, right? Yeah. Yeah. But I can't imagine that it's true. Yeah. So that's the whole thing. Is this true or not? That's what this is all going to come down to, essentially dr pace who's the one who does these sessions with him in his notes he says that like he completely believes that bill butterworth was so traumatized by what he saw and how he reacted to it that he felt so much shame because he reacted in his own words, in his recovered memories, like a coward.

He ran out of the house. Perhaps he could have saved whoever was in the basement making the noise. But instead, he chose to run. To run. And because of those things compiled, it triggered this amnesia state where his brain tried to protect him from these memories. I mean, maybe I just, you know, I. The brain is a fascinating thing. Exactly.

I do think there would be. Gosh, you get me with the shame thing. The shame thing. So that's a fascinating thing. Exactly. I do think there would be, gosh, you get me with the shame thing. The shame thing. So that's his biggest thing. Yeah. So that's the thing, like when he would be in these hypnosis sessions. So like the doctor has very specific notes. Like he's exhibiting all the signs of being fully in a hypnotic state. His eyes are rolled back.

You know, he's doing the methodical breathing, whatever. So he completely believes that in each of these 10 sessions, he got into the full state of hypnosis. And he would get to these points where his breathing would get so heavy and he couldn't go any further in trying to retrace these memories. And he would get scared of what he was recovering and he'd have to stop. And he'd have to pull them out of him. And in his notes, he is very clear that he believes this is all authentic. And this is all how he is reacting to his own shame about his own cowardice. But not his own shame about murdering people? No.

Okay. No. This is very interesting. It is. It is. Okay. Do we have any physical evidence from the scene? Okay. We'll get there. We'll get there.

I would like to get there. The answer is no, Kristen. God damn it. Well, this is a mess then. It's a mess. It's a mess. Does Bill have a gun? Like what's the deal there? Okay. So that is a question that he was asked during his initial like four hour interrogation. He says no in that initial interrogation. But then his wife says that he did have a gun.

She'd found it in their closet about a year earlier and told him to get rid of it. And she assumed that he had. Everyone I'm making faces again. Which you sense. I know. I know I'm making faces again. Which you sense. I know. I know. I don't have to tell you anything. I could sit in silence and you'd listen along going on the face journey with me.

That's right. Hmm. So that gun. Yeah. So it's believed that Philip was killed with a.38 caliber handgun. No idea what kind of gun it was that Mrs. Butterworth found. Her name is Sherry as well, so it gets very confusing. That is very confusing.

Yes. Found in the closet and no gun was ever recovered in correlation to this case. No murder weapon was ever found. Because he ditched it on the way to Florida? Perhaps. Perhaps he did. See, okay. The fact that he...

Brandy, no, no, no! I know. I think it's weird that he said, no, I don't have a gun. See, I don't think it's weird. I think it means that that he said, no, I don't have a gun. See, I don't think it's weird. I think it means that he's the murderer. Honestly, if he had been like, yeah, I have a gun. To me, I don't know.

Somehow that would seem more honest. Yeah. All right. Continue. Okay. So this all comes out like these recovered memories come out in these four months as they're leading up to trial. Let me tell you, this is 1988 now and fucking trials happen at the snap of your fingers. Yeah, it's old timey times, right? That's so rude.

May 9th of 1988. I was born in 95. Stop it. 9th of 1988. So like in 95. Stop it. Five months after these murders, jury selection begins in Bill Butterworth's trial. I'm sorry.

I'm having such a hard time not calling him Buttersworth. It's kind of a sticky situation. It is a real sticky situation. Yeah. Yeah. We all get it. Yes. So, yeah, just like five months later, it's like bing, bang, boom. We're going sticky situation. Yeah. Yeah. We all get it. Yes. So, yeah, just like five months later, it's like, bing, bang, boom, we're going to trial.

Okay. What's the general thought on hypnosis? Is it respected amongst the field of psychiatry? If you keep your pants on for approximately five more seconds, I will tell you. Do you see how flowy these jobbies are? They are. They are. These are the flowiest. Man, we could put a fan on me and I could be a model in a JCPenney catalog.

You could be a golden girl. yeah i mean they were like 50 when that show started so you're not far off there oh wow age oh so so we're being hateful now yes we are i've been very triggered by you is this because i said that we were damn near 40 yes you told me i was damn near 40 you didn't say we are damn near 40 you said said you are damn near 40. I'm older than you. And that was the rudest thing you've ever said to me. It's the truest. But you know what?

Then I went home and David and I decided that for my 40th birthday, we're going to Key West. And so now I am counting down to 40 and I'm really looking forward to it. You know what? Here's why. We established earlier that I'm not a bitch. never have been, never even been called one. But here's why I might be one. I know how weird you are about age. Yeah.

You're super weird about it. Yeah. So I like to remind you that every day we get older and more decrepit. Yes. But it's because I, well, we don't have to get into all that. Because you're getting older. We all are. No, it's not even that.

What is it? Because I feel like I wasted a huge chunk of my life. I've got bad news for you, Brandy. You've always been this way. So you're going to have to give that up right now. Well, it's actually this really sad reason, so I'd like you to leave me alone. No, bitch, you've always been this way. No, that's a huge part of it.

I'm sure that's part of it. My life that I wanted started way later than I wanted it to start. Yeah, I'm going to be the old fucking mom. Way older than London's friends' moms. It's fine. It's going to be the old fucking mom. Way older than London's friends, moms. It's fine. It's going to be great. I'm so cool that I'm going to make up for it. Yeah, they'll be like, oh, my gosh, are those orthopedic shoes?

Yes, they are going to say that. I didn't know they made, like, orthopedic Crocs, Mrs. Pond. There's old Mrs. Pond. Anyway, back to the case. They seated a jury of seven women and five men. And then on May 9th. That's not correct. My God.

It's May 10th. It's because you're getting old and senile. Stop it. My God. It's May 10th. It's because you're getting old and senile. Stop it. See, I thought maybe part of your age stuff was because David is younger than you, and you have very old-fashioned ideas about the woman should be younger than the man.

I will say that I do think 37 and 33 sounds like a huge difference in age. Well, especially when you consider how old you two were when you met. Stop it. A lot of people don't know that Brandy was David's teacher. I don't really, I don't know. I don't think I, I feel bad about getting older. I really don't. But I do think 37 sounds way older than 33, which is my current age and David's current age. He's almost 34, though, and that sounds better. 37 and 34. Because, like, 37 is late 30s and 33 is early 30s.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Also, my friend is really obsessed with age gaps and hates them. So. Okay. gaps and hates them so okay anyway moving on to the case okay everyone reach out and let brandy know how old she is it's rude just kidding um okay on may 9th they made the jury selection they seated a jury of seven women and five men. They were sworn in on May 10th, 1988.

And then the trial was underway. Okay. Prosecution gets up and they're like, this is a super fucking easy case. Who else could have done it? No, it's super easy.

He was known to be at the house. He was found with their car. Bing, bang, boom. He murdered them. Well, you would like some more physical evidence no it's all you need no it's not what do you need physical evidence he was found with their car bing bang boom guilty i mean yeah probably but also you would like some more physical evidence and then richard naggett's up there. Defense counsel.

Mosey's on up to the little podium. You're missing the little dance she's doing. This is him walking like a cowboy, kind of. Yeah, sure. It's a Mosey. He walks up to the podium. And he says, today we're going to present to you some evidence from Bill Butterworth himself. He will take the stand and he will tell you in his own words the memories that he has been able to uncover or recover.

This is not a verbatim. This isn't verbatim, by the way. This is my words. So he's one of the best defense attorneys in Kansas. Yeah, I can tell. I'm paraphrasing. Memories that he was able to recover during hypnosis. And then the prosecution goes, objection?

What? Excuse me? What the fuck? Is this happening? Absolutely not. And they send the fucking jury out who had just gotten all cozy in their seats. Yeah, they just got sat down. They just sat down.

My goodness. The fucking jury gets sent out and then they have to have this whole hearing about whether this is admissible or not. Yeah. So this delays the trial for several days. Did the prosecution really make the screech noise? I don't think so. Damn it. I didn't find that in my notes anywhere, but I thought they should have.

What a missed opportunity. I also don't think they said fuck anywhere in there, but we can't be certain. Yeah. They shouldn't, but they absolutely should have gone. Yeah. Yeah. So the defense talks about all of the reasons that they think this should be allowed. And they followed specific. I don't know. There's a precedent about a case.

Rock versus Arkansas. I didn't read it all about it. I don't know anything. Sounds fascinating. OK. That case happened in 1987. That's all I can tell you. It's was carried out in a reliable manner, as suggested in Rock v. Arkansas. Would you like to know the actual number of that case? I'm not going to read it to you. So you don't know anything about the case itself, but you know the number. I do. I have it. I have it copied and pasted right here. Great. No, so basically what Richard Nay gets up and says is he says that based on this case, this should be allowed in. So Butterworth's recollections are admissible because his constitutional right to testify in his own defense.

Right. I know. But we need to determine whether. So they're saying we're not going to we're not going to put Dr. Pace on the stand. We're not putting him on the stand. We're not looking. We just want Bill Butterworth to be able to get on the stand and say what he now recalls because he went through these hypnosis sessions. Hmm.

I would allow that. Yeah. And so the prosecution doesn't like it. They're like, absolutely not. And they put this expert on the stand during this hearing who says, you know, I've done a bunch of these and, you know, most of the time people lie. Yeah. Okay. The defense actually puts Dr. Pace on the stand during this hearing to talk about how the process that he went through, just to explain to the judge and the prosecution and whatever, and talk about the extensive notes that he took.

And he submits those notes to the court and to the prosecution. And the prosecution still doesn't like it. They don't like that the that the sessions weren't video recorded, that they weren't audio recorded, that all they have from them are these notes. OK, question. Are sessions with the psychologist for court purposes, are those normally recorded? I don't know the answer to that. See? I don't know the answer to that. See, I don't know the answer to that either. Okay. Yeah.

I would think no. Is it a privileged information? I would kind of think so, but I guess if it's for the purpose. Well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. So he turns over all of his records, you know, all of his notes, everything. And ultimately, the judge said, yeah, the judge asked a bunch of questions. I guess the prosecution asked a bunch of questions. Obviously introduced him through Richard Ney, but he wasn't given any information about the charges that Bill was facing.

He just knew that he was Richard Ney's client. OK. So he was defending him in court for something, but he didn't know. He wasn't given any background information about it. But this guy's local, right? Yeah, I assume. Yeah. And he's seen a newspaper before in his life. So he probably knows.

Yeah. So he said this is what he says. He says he received no information from the police. He said that Ney did provide him with just some like cursory information about the Fager family just for the purposes of being able to ask him questions during the hypnosis. Yeah. purposes of being able to ask him questions during the hypnosis. Yeah. And then he wrote in his notes if he had ever received any information from an outside source, he would write it down. So occasionally after a session, I guess Bill would be really upset. He would be really emotional. And on, I guess, more than one occasion, they had to call his wife to come in and like console him

and calm him down. And so like if she ever gave little bits of information that was noted specifically in the note that it didn't come from Bill, it came from her. OK. That kind of stuff. OK. So he turns over like 100 pages of handwritten notes from these sessions to the court. And ultimately, the judge decided to let it in. Let Bill Butterworth testify in his own defense. And so the trial was set to resume. And we will hit that after we break for an ad. We're back from the ad. Okay. Wow. You're like a cliffhanger, don't you? I do. Sarah, you got to talking so much,

I forgot we had to do an ad. Okay. So the judge allows the hypnosis testimony to come in. Not from Dr. Pace himself, but Bill Butterworth can get on the stand and talk about the memories that he was able to recover through hypnosis. Right. Okay. So first, the prosecution's first, they do their whole case, which is basically nothing. Well, it's not nothing. But yeah, I, how is there not more physical evidence? So the physical evidence that they had at the scene. So they have a police chemist named Mary Ayers. She testifies that there was no semen from anybody, including Butterworth, on either of the girls in the hot tub anywhere. Well, wouldn't it be gone because they were in the hot tub? So that's what's interesting about this. So the lack of physical evidence you would

kind of expect because the two girls' bodies were in chlorinated water. Right. But there is, chlorinated water. Right. But there is, okay, I read an entry from a textbook about underwater forensics and there would be

some trace of it, even, like they would be able to recover it if it had existed, is the gist of what I read. It would not have eliminated everything.

What it can do is cause a misreading of the blood type. That seems so cause a misreading of the blood type. That seems so unlikely. It can alter the blood type but cannot destroy it completely. But I mean like How's that make you feel about sitting in a public hot tub?

Great. So great. But like fingerprints fingerprints, anything hair, anything on door handles? No. I read one source that said there were some fingerprints found at the scene that they could not match to any of the victims or Butterworth. Okay.

That is only one source. It's not mentioned most places. Well, damn it. I know. Because that is interesting to me. Yeah, damn it. I know. Because that is interesting to me. Yeah, I agree. Another source says that there was semen found in the water, just not on the bodies. Only one source says that, and that's a guy who wrote a book about this case.

It's talked about in lots of the articles that I read, but it is commonly written about how that is contradicted by other evidence. Yeah. But that was blood typed. That's all they could do at that time. And it didn't match Bill Butterworth's blood type. Okay. So who even knows if that was actually found? This woman, I have this for sure.

She testifies that there was no semen from Bill Butterworth or from anyone else found on Kelly or Sherry. Okay. A KBI agent, Philip Aviles from Topeka, he testified about some fiber evidence. Okay. You ready for this? Yes. He found Philip Fager's coat fibers on a towel that had presumably been used as a silencer for the gun. Well, that tells us nothing. No, it just tells us that someone went up and –

Correct, which we already knew. It does not tie it to Bill Butterworth in any way. It ties it to no one. To no one, in fact, yes. Yeah. Get out of here, KBI. Yeah. He did have to say, like, no, there's no proof that this was ever touched by Bill Butterworth or that it – yeah.

Just that it was likely used in the crime. Did someone say thanks for nothing, asshole? And did he cry on the stand? No. Okay. I'm feeling very frustrated. Gary Miller, who is a Wichita police firearms expert, he testified that a bullet from the crime scene definitely came from a.38 caliber gun or one of a similar size. Okay. But he couldn't say who had fired that shot. Sure, sure. And he didn't know where the gun was.

Right. This is not a strong case. It's a really, really weak case. Okay. Two friends, classmates, acquaintances of Kelly's. So she's the 16-year-old. Right. She worked at the McDonald's.

That was just a few blocks from the house. They testified that maybe Bill Butterworth was stalking Kelly. Okay. Because in like November or December of 1986, his van was seen at the McDonald's multiple times. Did he creep Kelly out? Like, did Kelly ever talk about? No. So here's the problem with that testimony.

He just ate a lot of McDonald's. He hadn't even met the Fakers yet at that point. He didn't work for them for like a full year after that. He didn't like meet them and get hired by them for like a whole nother year. Maybe he'd been stalking her all along and then he gets hired. That's what the prosecution said. Oh, really? Yeah.

Yeah. That's why he wanted the job. Okay. But again, Kelly never voiced. Yeah. This feels like a whole lot of nothing. It's why he wanted the job. Okay. But again, Kelly never voiced. Yeah. This feels like a whole lot of nothing. It's a whole lot of nothing. Yeah.

I don't even really understand this testimony, but a Wichita police detective, Tom Mayhill, said that he did some handwriting analysis that showed that Bill Butterworth had signed some receipts the day of the murder. Well, what does that mean? I have no idea. Okay. Also, the mailman testified that he heard gunshots at the house but didn't report them okay what time not sure well shit that was the extent of his testimony well he couldn't even ballpark it i didn't find that he gave a time it's possible that he did and it did not get reported. Okay. And that's pretty much the extent of the prosecution's case.

Yeah. Okay. There is one more thing. They presented some evidence about the car. So they found Bill Butterworth with the Fager's car. And he had removed two stickers off of it two identifying stickers yeah i think that's something yeah that's sketchy yeah but he hadn't changed the plates well yeah maybe he was looking for an opportunity to swap those out but it possible, if you want to do something to quickly disguise the identity of a car, yeah, take off the one of them was like a parking sticker for Boeing. Yeah, yeah,

definitely want to take that off. Yeah. And I think the other one had something to do with the high school that Kelly attended. Yeah, to me that speaks volumes. Yeah. What? Well, so the other side of that is, you know, if his story is totally true and he comes to and he realizes that he's got the car of a family that's just been found murdered, does he then decide that he should disguise that car? Well, at a certain point, when do you stop that whole thing? Yeah, absolutely. So that's the just...

Are you going to go on the run for the rest of your life from a crime you didn't do? Right, didn't do, yeah. I would say, looking at it from his perspective, if he's really telling the truth, you come to, you have no idea where you've been for four days, if he's really telling the truth. Okay, yeah. You come to. You have no idea where you've been for four days.

You come to. You're in fucking Florida. You have no idea who you've got there. You hear this news story about this family that you work for. Yep. Who has been murdered. And you find yourself in their fucking car. Mm-hmm.

I think you would probably panic and try and disguise that car. Right. I don't know. I don't know that you, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. So then the prosecution rested and it was the defense's turn. They initially filed a motion just to get the case thrown out, saying the prosecution hadn't reached their burden.

Right. And the judge denied it. Then they tried to submit the BTK letter into court, and the judge would not allow it. And then they tried to submit a report from Child Protective Services. Apparently there was some kind of incident. This is briefly mentioned in the court record, so I don't know exactly what it was. Some incident that resulted in some kind of interaction from the fakers and Child Protective Services where Kelly and Sherry, I don't know if it was both, I don't know if it was one or the other, put on record that they were scared of Philip. Oh.

And so the defense tried to submit this as evidence at trial and the judge would not allow it. Hmm. Okay. Yeah. So then Bill takes the stand and he talks about all of these memories that he has recovered. He tells his story. I've already told you about what he believes happened that day that he's recovered through hypnosis. And he's super emotional. He cries throughout the whole thing.

And it comes off very believable. Okay. In court. And that's basically what the defense does. They put up a bunch of character witnesses. I didn't know you did that at the actual trial. They have like family members that testify for him. I always thought that was like in a penalty phase.

But I mean, maybe it can be both. Maybe. Yeah. So, yeah, they have a clergy that testifies for him, all kinds of stuff. And then they rest and the prosecution does their rebuttal phase and they put like a psychologist on the stand who is an expert in hypnosis. It's a different one than the one that they put on for the hearing. Right. But he says essentially the same thing.

He's done maybe 50 cases of hypnosis. And in every one of those cases, he believes that the person is lying, that they are saying what they want to believe what they want to be true and most of them admit it to him later down the road that they have fabricated the whole thing okay and then on cross richard may is like how do you know that's what's happening here and he has to say that he doesn't he doesn't know that's what's happening here. And he has to say that he doesn't. He doesn't know that's what's happening here. And that's basically the trial. The jury gets the case. God, I hate that. Mm-hmm. So.

Good. Hold on. Go ahead. Yeah. Okay. So the CPS thing. Mm-hmm. Any word on why the girls were scared?

No. That's everything I know about it. Okay. Continue. I think the defense also tried to present some evidence that, okay, Kelly is 16. She had a much older boyfriend. She had, like, a 20-year-old boyfriend. And, like, he was supposed to come to the house that day with a friend, but he called and no one ever answered.

And so he says he didn't come. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. Yeah. So the jury gets the case. They assign a foreman and they take an initial vote and they are split. Yeah. Seven for acquittal. Two undecided. And what's that leave? Two guilty, I think. Okay. Yeah.

And so then they start deliberations. They deliberated for an hour and a half. Wait, did you say? Seven, two, and two. Is that right? No. No. Fuck, I don't know.

It would have to be three. All right, anyway. Anyway, seven, three, and two. I think it's seven, three, and two. Okay. Yeah. We can do math. Yeah. So they deliberate for like an hour and a half that day, and then they're excused to go home.

So they come back the next day, and they deliberate for only a couple more hours, and then they return a verdict. You're kidding me. Nope. Okay. So acquittal, right? They acquitted him on all charges, even grand theft auto. Oh, well, that's ridiculous. Do you want to know why?

Why? Because they believed him. They believed his story completely. Well, he didn't set out to steal their car. Yeah, but you still stole it. He gave it back. Blow it out your ass. He didn't.

It wasn't a choice he made. He was in a state. I'm in a state. I'm going to steal your car. Completely acquitted him. Okay. God damn. Mm-hmm.

So this verdict really split Wichita. A lot of people thought this was a wrongful acquittal, including the police and the prosecution and the investigators. And then people who knew the Butterworths thought that this was the right thing, thought that he never could have been capable of this. And the jury got it right. never could have been capable of this. And yeah, the jury got it right. I read a bunch of like letters to the editor that came out after this verdict, and it was just tearing the jury apart. Yeah.

How terrible this jury was to get this so wrong. And so then the jury foreman spoke out about it. Yeah. He was pissed. He's like, they proved to us he drove the family's car and you want us to find them him guilty of three counts of first degree murder yeah i mean it's a burden to be on a jury yeah years later this guy like his name's ron blossie and years later like 20 years later like he moved to missouri after this and he went back to wichita and he went to the Eagle, the newspaper there, and, like, chewed them out about how this case was covered and how the jury was slandered after all of this.

He wrote a book about it. Oh, shut up, dude. Yeah. I did find one troubling article. What? Oh, what? article what okay what so he went on this the whole thing in a newspaper article about this interview in a newspaper article about how clearly there was a satanic element to this case there we go so then i was like holy shit did he did he convince the other jurors of this and so then

they in this interview they also then go talk to a couple other jurors who this. And so then in this interview, they also then go talk to a couple of other jurors who come forward and they're like, holy shit, that was never mentioned in there. Like ever. No mention of satanic worship ever came up in the jury room. Like nothing. Like that's that guy.

That's not, none of the rest of us believed that and he didn't ever say anything to that effect. The jury foreman was asked like how much weight they gave Bill Butterworth's testimony about if they really bought the hypnosis stuff. And he said they considered it uncorroborated evidence. So they found him believable, but they did say like they didn't weight it like it was guaranteed truth.

Yeah. They considered it uncorroborated. Well, and I guess if it were me, if I were on the jury. OK, maybe I don't believe in hypnosis, but I definitely believe that your brain can protect you from certain things. Yeah. And things can come to you later. Yeah. And that, gosh, maybe he witnessed this terrible thing.

He panicked. He drove off. He did the wrong thing. Yeah. And this is the story he's telling me now. Right. Doesn't make him a murderer. Right.

Yeah. I guess I shouldn't come down too hard on the jury foreman just because he wouldn't yield at reporters. But I just I feel like. Yeah. This is part of being on a jury. And yeah, and it is a burden. You've got to look at everything. You've got to know that a newspaper reporter is taking an entire day's worth of or maybe even multiple days worth of testimony, condensing it down into a little article. Yeah.

And yeah, maybe they're not going to have the exact same take that you did, but that's just part of being on a jury. Okay, so here's some quotes from people involved in the case after the verdict came out. Okay. Police Chief Richard Lemunyan, he said, Police Chief Richard Lemunyan, he said, the department charged the correct person in the beginning and nothing was said in court or to the jury that has changed the facts in the case. All right. So publicly, the police said this case is closed. They got the right person.

The jury got it wrong. There will be no further investigation in this case. Yeah, that. Of course, they're going to say that. I think that's shitty. Yeah. Why do you think it's shitty? Well, because I I think I would have gone the way of the jury here. I don't think – I don't know that I believe Bill Butterworth. I don't know that I believe his story. Right.

But I don't think there's enough evidence to convict him. That I completely agree with you. Yeah, there would not be enough here. Yeah. I don't know that he's innocent, but I don't think they proved he's guilty. Right. And so I would have gone the same way as the jury. Mm-hmm. And so I think that the prosecution should look at the case they presented.

Right. That was too weak to convict him. Right. Not just blame the jury for getting it wrong. Right. But they have to work with that prosecutor in the future. Of course. So they're not going to shit on them.

They're going to shit on the everyday citizen that served on the jury. Yeah. Lieutenant Dave Williams, who supervised the investigation, said, There's still nothing to indicate someone else was involved. Contrary to what Mr. Ney said about the shoddy investigation, I think we did all we could. If we go over it again, we'll come up with the same bottom line. I mean, BTK ran rampant in this city for decades. Yeah. So I think there is absolutely something to be said for the Wichita police not doing the best job. Yeah. Yeah. And for the record,

I still have not ruled BTK out on this one. Okay, okay. And District Attorney Clark Owens had this to say. We really thought we had a good jury. We thought they could have seen through it. It had to be an absolute fabricated lie and they fell for it.

That's so, that's shitty. I think it's so shitty. Yeah, there's no accountability there. It's basically saying the jury's stupid. Yep. Yeah. You lost. You lost.

You lost. So they did appeal. The state appealed... Wow, that's interesting. ...this verdict... Okay. ...saying that the judge erred in allowing Bill Butterworth to testify about his recovered memories under hypnosis. No.

And in May of 1990, the Kansas Appellate Court upheld the judge's decision. Yeah. So this case is officially closed. Wow. Yep. And that's the story of the Fager family murders. A triple murder.

Unsolved. Unsolved. But closed. Wow, that is fucked up. Yeah, I think it's super fucked up. I kept waiting for you to get to the part where it's like, and here's the truth.

But no, there's nothing more. They've never investigated it any further. They put the police say they have the right guy and the jury got it wrong. Well, what's he up to these days? I don't know. Yeah. So they did. And I mean, you would go.

So Bill and his wife, Sherry, did an interview with the Wichita Eagle after this about trying to get back to a normal life and all of this. And then the paper got like a ton of shit for giving them this platform. And then I read this other article like a couple years later. This is so funny to me. About these other three men that live in Wichita who happen to also be named Bill Butterworth and how hard it's been for them. That would suck.

It really would. Yeah. Yeah, no, I couldn't find anything on like if Bill Butterworth and his wife ended up moving away. And then I don't know about Mary Fager either. I don't know how she fared after this. She, as far as I could find, did not do any public interviews or anything after the verdict i cannot imagine how painful

oh i can't either i can't either holy shit yeah what if it is btk is like a little fuck you to the police that he won't claim this one oh absolutely yeah yeah mean, it sounds like a BTK thing to me. It absolutely sounds like a BTK. And the fact that he sent that letter just to fuck with them. Now, granted, it very well could be a copycat. Yeah, it absolutely could be a copycat thing. But that is such a twisted crime. Yeah. twisted crime. Yeah. And again, it fits. Isn't this case nuts? Yes. I think it's so weird to hear about a case like this and be like, wow, I've never heard of this one before.

Yeah. God damn. I hate it. I know. But now you believe that it wasn't BTK, right? I don't think it was BTK. I do not. Why not?

Because he's so fucking arrogant. I don't see a way where he could have not claimed it. He claimed murders that they had not attached him to when he got up in court and described everything that he did. And so I just don't believe that he's not arrogant enough to claim every single one he did. Okay. That's the thing. I think it fits. I think it is a very BTK-esque murder.

Yeah. I think it very much fits. But I just don't see that he wouldn't have claimed it if he really was the one to do it. But who knows? I don't fucking know him. Well, thank God. Yeah. Yeah.

The only thing I can think of is if, I don't know, if it's like a little power move. Yeah. I mean, I could see that. Yeah. It's fuck you to the police. Like, I'm going to keep this one for myself. Ooh. Like, I'm going to keep this one for myself.

Ooh. Or alternatively, the police don't want him to take credit for that. Yeah. Because then Bill Butterworth and all the other Bill Butterworths might look themselves in the mirror and say, let's go to court. Wow. All right. My tinfoil hat is fully on. I look great in it. Obviously.

Goes with my ensemble. Yeah. By the way, do I smell kind of like a taco with this heating pad on me? I don't smell you at all. I don't sweat. No, I can't. I've not gotten a single whiff of you. Sorry to hear it.

Oh, my. Oh, boy. Should we do another ad? I think we shall. Toodaloo. Toodaloo. You looked embarrassed when I kind of rapped there for a second, Kristen. No, I was like, wow, she's cool.

Yeah. The coolest. Should we take some questions from the Discord? I believe we shall. My God, we've not plugged our Patreon. Oh, shit. Give the people a butt plug, Kristen. Everybody, if you enjoy the show, come on over to Patreon.com.

Come on over. Come on over, baby. We've got bonus, bonus episodes, yeah. Hey, boy, don't you know I got bonus episodes. I apologize sincerely, everyone. This is my fault. Boom, boom, boom. I got an invitation.

Won't you sign up for $5 more? Oh, no. Okay. Anyway, sign up for our Patreon. And if you're already on our Patreon, please don't cancel because of Chris's sick. Discounts are merged. Woo. Gonna get on Patreon.

Gonna get da-da-da. It's a mashup. To get in the Discord, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And then when we record, we come in here and we answer some questions. I see. So you're just going to say this stuff instead of sing it. That's right. Wow.

It's a choice. Ooh. Awala Koala wants to know, I just bought my first house. Do you have any moving slash packing tips? Okay. The last time David and I moved, we did something that I thought was revolutionary and it made things significantly easier. So I always struggle with how to pack up like your kitchen and your bathroom and stuff with like all that miscellaneous shit. Yes.

bathroom and stuff with like all that miscellaneous shit. Yes. So what we did was we moved those rooms room by room in laundry baskets. So we took all the plates and stuff out of the cabinets, put them in laundry baskets, took that to the new place, put it all away. So this works if you're doing an in-town move. If you're doing an out-of-town move, that's going to be difficult. So I hope you don't have that far to move. We did the same thing with our bathrooms and our closets.

And then also you're forced to put everything away right away. And so it's easier to live in your new space. It doesn't get more brilliant than that, folks. That's my hot tip. You got any hot moving tips? No. Okay. I've moved a lot.

You have. I've moved a lot you have I've moved a lot yeah um you've also helped me move I did yeah we were called out for not working very hard that day was it because you were trying on David's clothes maybe I only tried on one shirt and I think I looked great in it. And I was asked to do that as part of the move. Oh my God, this is such weird timing. Did you see the Space Penguins question? No, what is it?

Kristen, next week I'm getting an ultrasound done to see if I have cysts on my ovaries. I'm extremely nervous and scared. Any advice on what to expect? Oh my gosh. That's so weird. Yeah. First of all, why are you nervous? It expect? Oh, my gosh. It's so weird. Yeah. First of all, why are you nervous?

It's going to be so fun. It's not fun. It's not fun. I thought I'd lie. And they'd be overjoyed to go there and wouldn't find out until the last minute. No, that's terrible. No, so I just had, yeah, I had the ultrasound. Yeah. Then I had the transvaginal Trans Am shoved up my hoo-ha.

And it was nice because this time it wasn't during COVID time, so Norman could sit there. I told you, I felt like I was finally getting that movie moment. Yeah, that TV moment where they're looking at your cyst baby on the ultrasound. No, not cyst, you know, but there's always that moment where the husband is sitting there. Looking at the ultrasound with you. Now, usually they're not looking for a cyst. Not usually. Typically, no.

But yeah. Okay, here's the thing that I am horrified about. And I cannot get over this. You had a transvaginal ultrasound, which for anybody who has, first of all, maybe doesn't have a vagina or hasn't received one of those, that means they put this giant probe into your vagina. I've had it done twice. One time they inserted it. And then the second time they asked me, would I like them to insert it or would I like to insert it myself? I think that is the best thing ever.

Ask the person how they want to be treated. That should be offered every time. That is consent to me. Like, yes. And they did not ask you. I hate that. Well, it's funny because I liked her so much more than I liked the lady who did my last transvaginal ultrasound. Now, the bar was very low there.

But, yeah, that would have made all the difference to me if I had at least been in control for the insertion. Yes. But, you know, the thing I always think about, gosh, this is not helpful to this person who's very nervous. But, like, I always think about those states where, well, I guess now nobody can get abortion. Well, anyway. Here we go. Here we go. I remember a while back there was there were some laws passed that were like, if you're wanting to get an abortion, you have to have a transvaginal ultrasound first.

And it's like horrible. Yeah. Such a violation. Yeah, it feels very violating. And I Yeah, I Yeah, whenever I get them, which is twice now, yeah, I think about 14 year olds who are having to get that done. Anyway, boy, happy times. So here's my here's my, my piece of advice. And I think this will be difficult. I think this would be difficult even for me to do to ask to be able to insert it myself and I think this will be difficult. I think this would be difficult even for me to do, to ask to be able to insert it myself. I think that's what I would do if I were in this situation again and I was being told, okay, you're going to be getting a transvaginal ultrasound. I think I will ask if I can insert the probe myself, even if it's not offered to me. Yeah. I just think that changes things so much. It does. Yes.

It does. Gosh. Yeah, what advice would I give? I don't know. For the record, I think they should be fucking asking. Yeah, probably. I think that's like the bar minimum. The bare minimum.

The bar is so low. At the bare minimum. At the bare minimum. The bar is so low. At the bare minimum. At the bare minimum. Yeah. I hope everything goes well for you. Yes. Yeah. I hope you're not in too much pain.

Sorry you're going through this. And good luck. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Antiques Road Ho says, scenario. All right. You drop your phone in a porta potty.

Oh, no. Do you reach in? No. Water? No. To get it? Or do you leave it and spend whatever money to get a new one? Absolutely spend whatever money.

What kind of question is that? I would spend whatever money. There's not a chance in hell I'd reach down in there. No. Absolutely not. Here's what. What? That phone's going to be dead anyway.

It's not surviving the murky depths. Even if it's alive. And that port-a-potty monster is going to swallow it anyway, too. That's fine. Yeah, no. No. No. You're not reaching in there.

Do not. Walk away. Ph phones are replaceable yeah yeah oh whatever i mean funk you get from touching that no you know okay so that's forever can't wash that away exactly there's no clean that's clean enough after that so yesterday at the hospital yeah like i noticed this the last time i was in a hospital like so anytime they wanted me to get up and like go to the bathroom or do anything you know i always put my shoes on yeah and one of the nurses was like, oh, good. You've got shoes on. I was going to bring you socks if you didn't have shoes. And like, I'm sorry, no way in hell am I going in stocking feet into a public restroom. No. First of all, never barefoot. No. But no but like no i'm not just putting socks on

yeah can you imagine i can't but i am reminded of like when britney spears got all that shit for walking into the gas station bathroom barefoot i think people just have different standards of yes comfortability with bare feet oh my god different levels of comfortability with bare feet. Oh my God. Different levels of comfortability. Are you trying to tell me not to judge? Because it's happening. The judgment has come down like a hammer. I was offended

that she even mentioned. Yeah, it's not something I would ever do. I don't want to go in there fully clothed. Honestly. You want to go completely nude. I don't want to go in there fully clothed, honestly. You want to go completely nude. I don't want to be in there at all. Oh, my God. Yeah.

Like, who do you, ma'am? Ma'am. Who do you think I am? Who do you think I am? You're talking to the Grace Kelly of podcasting. You think I'm going to walk in with my stocking feet into a public restroom? Dear God, I'd cut my feet

off. Oh, this is for you, Kristen. Dare Pledge of Virginity wants to know, I'm currently at Disney World as a 24 year old woman because my family goes every couple of years. Does this make me a Disney adult?

I'm afraid all signs point to yes. I don't know. Your mic just fell. My mic is askew. I have shifted with it. I don't know what's going on over there. But I got a real limp mic. Yeah. You might be a Disney adult.

Yeah, I think you are a Disney adult. And I think if you look deep inside yourself, you've always known that was true. Yeah, you know the answer. I don't think you need me to tell you. Oh, Rachel Mackey has a Kristen question. I almost meant to say a question for you, Kristen, but Kristen came out and said a question. Did you like how I rolled with it there? Yeah, you were so smooth.

You were like, you know what, the show must go on. Or alternatively, I can stop and make it weird. I could have. Why do we never get updates on the pets anymore? I would be pleased to hear about all of them. Oh, would you? Give us a rundown. How's everybody doing?

I watched them inhale bull penises earlier. That's true. Bully sticks, as it was pointed out to me by listeners of this very podcast. It's actually their bull penises. Okay. And that's why they're so expensive and also why they come in different sizes. I just thought it was bad quality

control and I didn't understand why they're so expensive. Now that I know that they're honest to God bull penises. Yeah. I, you know what? Rubbing your face on them. Stop it. No, I'm just saying, you know what? I understand some are going to be thicker and longer than others.

Also, I understand why I'm paying 40 bucks. Yeah. Yeah. I might be paying too little. You know? Anyway, my dogs love the hell out of them. They do. We gave them bull penises on this very day because they were harassing Brandy for a bite of her sandwich.

So the dogs are doing well. Yeah. The cats are also doing well. I haven't gone anywhere near the bull penises. Yeah. I did hear there was some drama, though, because the dogs got some kibble that's a little bit smaller. Yes.

And so Kiki has been feasting on their dog food. So it's been quite a time. It's really just payback for all the times the dogs have eaten her shit. Yeah, I wasn't going to bring that up. But that's another. See, this is why it's just disgusting, my updates. It's disgusting around here. Are you happy?

Thanks a lot, Rachel Mackey. Another one for you. I don't know if you can handle it. Oh my goodness, people are obsessed with me. Two-time jury alternate wants to know, how's your hot tub feeling? You know what? Things are good. Okay, good. Things are good in the hot tub. Good. I don't mean to be braggy here, but my hot tub is chugging right along.

I'm living the good life, okay? Yeah. My ovarian cysts might burst open at any time, but it could happen to me while I'm in a hot tub. Oh, sure. So there's a silver lining, and the silver lining is the hot tub. Yeah. Have you been in the hot tub since you've been having the pains? No, but I think it would probably be soothing, wouldn't it?

I think it would be soothing. Yeah. But also. You'd have to get out of your Golden Girls outfit. I love it. No, you don't. I do. No, you don't. Yes, I do. You'd have to get out of my Golden Girls outfit. I love it. No, you don't. I do. No, you don't.

Yes, I do. You love my Golden Girls outfit. I love it. Yes. I love it, but it's very Golden Girls. Yeah, I mean, it's very... I could wear this several decades from now, and it would still be age appropriate. Yes.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Listen, I just wanted to be comfy today. It looks so Yes. Yeah. Uh-huh. Listen, I just wanted to be comfy today. It looks so comfortable. I, yeah, I've never been more comfortable. I doubt that's true. Oh, well, that's definitely true. I'm super uncomfortable.

Yes, exactly. Your body is uncomfortable. I've got weird pains in my front butt. Well, I do. That's the weird thing about these pains. It's like it's such a specific place, Brandy. Yeah. You ever had pain in your front butt?

Yeah. I usually call it my vagina, but. No. No. See, this is not vagina. It's not vagina pain. It's pelvic pain. Pelvic pain.

It's truly the front butt. So, yeah. So, I usually just say, and I kind of categorize. I call it uter vagina pain. It's pelvic pain. It's higher up. Pelvic pain. It's truly the front butt. So what I, so yeah, so I usually just say, and I kind of categorize, I call it uterine pain. I say my uterus hurts. Like even if it's not, like I just associate everything with my uterus if I have pains. I'm realizing now that sounds a lot classier than saying my front butt hurts. It does. Yeah. But it's not, it's not accurate.

So. Hmm. You want to do one more? Yeah, sure. What do you got? What do you got? I don't know. Ooh.

Okay. Mm-hmm. Munchie Potato wants to know, what order do you get ready in? Hair, makeup, clothing. Okay. Mm-hmm. Munchie Potato wants to know, what order do you get ready in? Hair, makeup, clothing. Okay. Well, your clothing, you know. Well, so I get ready in my pajamas, actually. Okay. Okay.

Okay? So this is my process. I wash my face because I got to get the shampoo, the lashes, do the whole thing. I put on my moisturizer. Mm-hmm. And then I curl my hair. Mm-hmm. And then I curl my hair. Mm-hmm. Okay.

I don't approve of this. And then I clip my hair out of the way so my curls can set. Oh, all right. And then I do my makeup. Mm-hmm. And then when my makeup's done, pull my hair down, brush out my curls, and then I get dressed. Okay. I was starting to say nay.

Yeah. Nay, you mustn't. But I like the idea that you're giving your curls time to set. Yeah. It's very important to the process. You got to let that hair cool. Yeah, sure. Locks in the curl.

Sure. But you are fully clothed the entire time. Oh, I'm clothed the entire time. Yeah. No. Heavens no, I'm not doing any of that naked. Okay. What, you're just tits out the whole time?

I mean, yeah. Okay. All right, tell me your process. Okay, okay. So, what? My microphone is limp again. Well, I don't know which one I have to... Who do you got to bang around here to get your microphone tightened?

That would be my husband. That's not happening. Wait, is this doing it? I'm not strong enough. Have you been lifting turbos lately? Oh, no, it's these ones. It's these ones. Okay.

Hold on. I bet this sounds great. Sorry, Patty. Yeah, I'm sure it sounds wonderful. Wow. Brandy figured it out. Good job. Okay, what order do you do yours in?

Okay, if I'm out of the shower, it's, you know, skin care, makeup, and, you know, maybe I grab a robe. Okay. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Otherwise, you'd just be fine just totally nude. Well, yeah, I'm totally nude most of the time. Just on a day-to-day basis?

You look horrified. I'm talking about... No, it's great for you. I'm happy for you. Oh, yeah, you look happy for me. I'm happy for you. I'm happy for Norm. These are great things.

Well, no, I'm in my own bathroom. What, Norm never just wanders in? Yeah, sure. Yeah, his office is on the other side of the door. Yeah. Yeah. Keeps things spicy. He peeps at you through the peephole?

We don't have a peephole. Keyhole. Keyhole. You got antique doors. You for sure have keyholes that someone could peep through. Honestly, that would be so weird. Okay. I mean, it would obviously be a king.

I have to do a tangent on this question. What? Yes. Okay. David, you know David does the laundry in our house. Yes. Okay. I mean, would obviously be a king. I have to do a tangent on this question. Why? Because, yes. Okay. David, you know, David does the laundry in our house. Okay. So he was putting laundry away and he had a whole stack of my underwear. Right.

And he's putting it in my underwear drawer and he goes, fresh undies to sniff. Ew. I know, exactly. And I was like, oh my God. What? And then he goes, what would you do if you like walked in here? Oh, my God. He's sniffing your underwear.

What would you do? What would you do if you walked in on Norm sniffing your underwear? And he was enjoying it? Yeah. I'd be like, yeah, enjoy the brand. I think I would like slowly walk away and pretend I never saw anything. See, that would probably be the move. I think I would want to talk about it, though.

What if he's sniffing your clean underwear? So he really just likes the smell of my clean underwear? Of the laundry detergent. I mean, then the conversation is a lot less exciting. I'll give you that. What are these, Downy scent boosters? Yeah, we use those. Yeah.

Suddenly the conversation's taking a much less sexy turn. Yeah, it is. He just grabbed the underwear because it was easy to ball up. Yeah, exactly. It fits under his nose neatly. Oh, any hooters. Should we do some Supreme Court inductions? Yes, we absolutely

should. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is head on over to Patreon.com, sign up at the $7 level, or higher. You gotta go to Patreon.com slash LGTC podcast. They knew. Deep down, they knew. Sign up at the $7 level or higher. You've got to go to patreon.com slash lgtcpodcast. They knew.

Deep down, they knew. Just like Disney adults know. Know that they're Disney adults. They're Disney adults. They knew deep down that you had to go to patreon.com slash lgtcpodcast. And this week, we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. Emily Pierce. Orlando Bloom. Jess Linen crushes. Emily Pierce. Orlando Bloom.

Jess Linenkamp. Joshua Jackson. Catherine Rodriguez. John Cena. Shannon Flannery. Jay-Z. Julie Haddix. Patrick Stewart.

Sandra S. Nick Carter. Maria. Kira Knightley. Tiffany Devine. Keanu Reeves. Sarah Santana. Devin Sawa. Lisa Tisdale. Joey Lawrence. I was waiting for you to do that. I was like, wow, amazing that she's not doing the wow.

Julia Pavlina. Luke Perry. Taylor Hallam. Jeremy Sumter. Jess Mary. Kurt Cobain. Brianne. Ethan Hawke. Taylor Hallam. Jeremy Sumpter. Jess Mary. Kurt Cobain. Breanne. Ethan Hawke.

Misty H. John Stamos. Kirsten. Have mercy. Oh, sorry. Wait, okay, Kurt, I even said it wrong. Anyway, Kirsten, Kirsten G. Scott Menville.

Crutchfield from Ernest Goes to Camp. That's a very specific crush. I love it. Laranovich. JTT. Tyler. Chris Evans. Heather Caputo.

Sean Cassidy. Bobby Orms. Ryan Felipe. Bert, the cousin from Dragon Tales. Taylor. Orlando Bloom. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support.

We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts. Oh, when I'll be an expert

on a whole new topic. Podcast adjourned! And now for a note about our process. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from reporting for the Wichita Eagle, genealogytrails.com,

the Kansas City Star, the Kansas City Times, UPI, and the Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it go read their stuff