Let's Go To Court! - 266: The Murder of Martre Coles

Episode Date: August 30, 2023

Martre Coles was no stranger to tragedy. When he was just 16 years old, his mother died suddenly. A month later, Martre’s father invited his new girlfriend, Denise Gay, to live with them. Martre struggled with the loss of his mother and the many changes to his life. But he was excited about his future. He had dreams of becoming an artist, and it looked like he was about to fulfill them. Then he disappeared.  And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Art of Death” episode Killer Motive “Denise Gay” podcast episode, Sistas Who Kill “Woman Forges Art School Email To Lure Boyfriend's Teen Son To His Death” by Joe Dziemianowicz, oxygen.com “‘It was betrayal’: Charges upgraded against women suspected of killing Henrico teenager” by Kristin Smith, ABC8 News “13-year-old witness testifies in case where victim was suffocated and stuffed in rubber storage bin” by Sean Gorman, The Roanoke Times “Witness testimony: Henrico murder victim yelled 'Get off me!' before death” by Ashley Monfort, NBC12 News “Father testifies against ex-girlfriend accused of murdering his son” by Liza David, The Capital News Service “Mother and daughter sentenced for roles in killing of teen found in storage container” by Vernon Freeman Jr., CBS6 News “Henrico woman gets life in prison for murder of boyfriend's teen son” by Kelly Avellino, NBC12 News YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 50+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the murder of Martre Coles. Well, that sounds sad.

It is. But you know what's not sad? Me right now. We are weird right now. We are in weird fucking moods today. Worth noting, this is episode two of the week that we've recorded. You can't tell, can you? We don't seem slap happy, do we?

We attempted three different lunch locations today. Yep. It's been a weird one, folks. And it's one million degrees outside. Yeah. So that's the update on where we are, folks. I've got to put my phone in do not disturb. What are you thinking, ma'am?

I don't know. I've got all my pagers off. Okay. Not getting a cig on my beeper. Yep, yep. Should we plug our Patreon? Yes, we should. Brandy, do it.

Try to do a really good job. Do you want more of this? Well, boy, do I have good news for you because we've got 50 bonus episodes available now on our Patreon. That's right. 50 long, meaty episodes just full of our bullshit. No, no. full of our bullshit. No. No. Brandy's bullshit.

Kristen is constantly amazing. Don't say Brandy bullshit. Is that what you said? Brandy bullshit? No. Kristen amazing? Like you're a caveman? No, I said Brandy's bullshit.

Oh, okay. Obviously, because I'm amazing. My God. Didn't I just get a Kleenex one second ago when I tugged on my sleeve or something? You put it in your pocket like an old woman. You used it up and said there's still some mileage on this bad boy. What's sitting on your table over there? You can't judge me.

I'm judging you. This is a paper towel that I used to wipe down my iced coffee. Okay. Okay? Okay. Okay. There's no bodily fluids in this bad boy here. That's what you think. You should see the things that are on the outside of those cans.

Oh. Yikes. Haven't you seen that? I'm sure there's like a 60-minute special about bacteria swabs on the outside of cans that we just willfully put our mouths on. Okay. All right. I will not be condescended to by a woman who has used Kleenex up her sleeve.

Not up my sleeve. It's in my hand. Now it is. Anyway, yeah, check out our Patreon. Yes. Yes. Why wouldn't you want more of this? My God.

What's wrong with you? Anyway, how's it going? What's been going on in your life in the last 36 hours? Oh my gosh. So much stuff. So much stuff. Yeah. As you can see, I've been killing it. Uh-huh. Yes,

I can see. Yeah, what about me right now? I have also been killing it. So we're just two ladies who've been doing great. Just doing amazing. And now here we go. Brandi's about to tell an amazing story. You ready?

Yes. Okay. Shout outs first to a podcast that I listened to about this case. New podcast for me. I'd never heard of it before, but there's not a lot of coverage on this case in the podcast front. And it was one who'd done it. And I loved it. I don't want to shout out another podcast.

Okay. We're the only podcast for you, baby. Yeah, no. That's me talking to the listener right now. This was a good podcast. It's called Sisters Who Kill. Okay. It's these two friends, two black women who cover cases only about black women who kill people.

Love it. They also do a fun segment. Okay. At the end of the episode. Okay. Admittedly, I've only listened to one episode, so I assume they do this on every episode. I don't know this for a fact. But they had a little segment called I'm Not Black, I'm OJ.

What the fuck does that mean so then they go back and forth and they say I didn't do it but if I did and then they kind of critique the case oh that's so good that's so good

it's a good podcast I enjoy it very much what's it called again? it's called Sisters Who Kill. All right. You're allowed to listen to another podcast. I guess. And then also shout out to an episode of Killer Motive, which is an oxygen program. Naturally.

Yes. Okay. Are you ready? I think I am. I think I need a deep breath and a drink. Oh, my. Everyone, the drama she's bringing today. I feel, like, amped up, like, too amped up.

I feel a lot of weird emotions. Okay, this amped up feeling really hit me, like, after I finalized this case this morning. So I think I was feeling, like, a little a little bit overwhelmed about like two episodes in a week. And then like, now I'm like fucking walking on sunshine. Now you're ready to go. I am, but I'm a little too energized, I fear. I think I need to calm myself a bit. Yeah, absolutely.

This is a serious podcast. It is. I'm gonna talk about this kid that was murdered. Oh God. He's 19, but to me he's a kid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you're 87. Yes. Yeah. Okay, God. He's 19, but to me he's a kid. Well, God damn it, Brandi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you're 87.

Yes. You get it. Yeah. Okay, you ready? Yeah. Martre Coles finally had something to look forward to, and boy, did he need it. Martre had had a tough go of things, starting when his mom, Karina, died suddenly in 2014 when he was just 16 years old.

Oh. She passed away at the age of 42 due to complications from hip surgery. Oh, my God. Yeah. I tried to find out more about this. I have no idea what the complications were. That's terrifying. But it was, like, very unexpected.

Yeah. Yes. Her passing left, obviously, a huge hole in Marte's world. He had older siblings, two sisters, Michelle and Marquesha, and an older brother, Maurice II, named after their father. But they were grown up. They were out of the house. Martre was the baby of the family and had been extremely close with his mother. Yeah. the family and had been extremely close with his mother. And without her presence, Martre and his dad, Maurice, found their house feeling empty.

What was his mom's name? Karina. She was the only one without an M? She was the only one without an M. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. You have Michelle, Marquesha, Maurice II, and Martre. I always clock in the alliteration.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Fine. So Martre and his dad, Maurice, are really struggling with the house being empty following Karina's untimely death. And they handled their grief very differently. Martre sought comfort from his sisters, but ultimately slipped into a pretty severe depression. Maurice, on the other hand, dealt with his grief by moving his co-worker turned girlfriend Denise Gay into the house.

No. Yeah. How quickly? Okay. So Michelle is asked this on the Killer Motive episode. And she says maybe a month after Karina died. Maybe it was a month. No. If that. Yeah, that's too fast. Yeah, it's really

fast. I'm not trying to tell people how to grieve. Everybody grieves differently. I am. I'm telling you it's too fast. That seems very fast. Yeah, so Denise and her nine-year-old daughter, Elena, moved into the Coles' home about a month after Martre's mom passed away. Michelle and Marquisha were stunned by this.

I'm going to make a note here. Michelle and Marquisha both were interviewed extensively on the episode of Killer Motive. Maurice II is not mentioned anywhere. So I don't have any information about him. I don't. It seems like maybe he didn't want to participate. Yeah. Sure. OK. So they thought this was entirely too soon and they worried about the impact it would have on Martre. Sure. But it seems that Martre was willing to try and make things work for his dad's sake. So this new family, as we'll call it, settled into life together. And before long, Denise Gay had taken on a stepmother role to Martre,

and Elena took on the role of little sister. Denise's older daughter, Latoya, was also a regular fixture at the home, but she didn't live there. Yeah. I think she was like 19 at the time that Denise moved in. Denise's younger daughter, Elena, suffered from some pretty serious behavioral issues and would act out in big ways. She would get into physical altercations with Martre. Sometimes she would destroy his things.

On one occasion, she poured bleach all over his bedroom. She's nine? She was nine, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. Denise would try to diffuse these situations, but they just kept escalating. try to diffuse these situations, but they just kept escalating. Really, this was due to Elena's behavioral issues going untreated. She really needed to be like in some kind of counseling. And unfortunately, that didn't happen. During the worst of these altercations between Elena

and Martre, Elena actually stabbed Martre with a pair of scissors. Oh, my God. Yeah. Some kind of argument started between the two of them. And I think at this point, Elena was like 11 or 12. So a couple of years had passed by this time. They had gotten into some kind of argument. Elena grabbed a pair of scissors and was holding them up, threatening to stab Martre.

And she made a move to, like, bring the scissors down to his chest in a stabbing motion. And he somehow at the last minute managed to twist his body enough that she stabbed him in the shoulder. Holy shit. Rather than the chest. Yeah. It was terrible. Uh-huh. And again, Elena's mother, Denise Gay, stepped in to defuse the situation.

She called the police and got Martre medical care. Okay. Just kidding. That's not what happened at all. Oh, you asshole. Instead, she convinced Martre that the whole thing was just kind of a misunderstanding. No big deal. And she made him promise not to tell his dad.

So he didn't get medical care after being stabbed in the shoulder? Nope. And he didn't tell his dad. He did what Denise told him to. Okay, honestly, I can understand being afraid to get police involved in that situation. I don't think there are real easy decisions there. No, I agree. But an easy decision is

the kid needs medical care. Yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah. So she said, this is really no big deal. Let's not tell your dad about this. And Martre never did. Oh, this is really no big deal. Let's not tell your dad about this. And Martre never did. Oh, this is awful. And that's kind of how things went for Martre for like the next three years.

Or like the three years that Denise and Elena lived there from when they moved. You get it. I don't understand. We all get it. Such a tough concept. Denise was kind of seen as like the authority in the house and Martre did what she said. Okay.

By 2017, Martre had become used to his home life. Sometimes he would seek refuge at his sister's house and spend the night there or spend like a couple nights there just to get away. And he spent a lot of time with his girlfriend, Ashlyn Knight. The two had met in high school and by 2017, they were 19 and they were actively planning a future together. The future Martre dreamed of was one where he could work as an artist. He loved art and was an extremely talented illustrator. He dreamed of going to art school and becoming a graphic designer for video games. Oh.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometime near the end of 2016 or the beginning of 2017, Martre let his dad and Denise in on the fact that he was dealing with some pretty serious depression and that he needed some hope for his future and that he believed that hope could come from going to art school. And Denise sprung into action. She told Martre that she would help him look at schools, help him apply, and that she'd even help him pay his tuition. And so she did. She helped him look at a bunch of schools online, and ultimately Martre decided on Full Sail University, an art school in Winter Park,

Florida. Denise helped Denise. How you doing over there? I'm good. You a little too excited to get? I'm too amped up. I knew this was happening. Yeah, you pumped up the jam too hard. My Reeboks pumps are too pumped up. Time for a slow jam. We're so cool. We're too cool.

Poor school. Okay. There we go. So he goes to full sail. No, so he applies to full scale. Jesus, fuck, I got to take a drink. I like how you don't say, oh, my God, but you'll say, Jesus, fuck. You're a complicated woman, Brandi.

Exactly. Don't question me, Kristen. No, no. Okay, so he applies to full Sail University, as it were. And in March of 2017, Martre got amazing news. He received an email letting him know that he'd been accepted and he was invited for an orientation weekend and a campus visit. This was amazing.

Martre was beyond thrilled. His whole family was. Martre was finally going to be moving toward his dreams. The email instructed him to put together his art portfolio so that he could bring it to the visit to show it off. Why would you ask that? Because I'm onto your bullshit. The Brandy bullshit. The Brandy? This isn't my bullshit. I don't know.

Okay, continue. Okay, so the email told him he needed to put together his portfolio to bring with him so that he could show it at the visit. And it also instructed him to make and bring a paper mache mask of his face for some kind of activity that was going to take place during during. Jeez. Sorry, folks. Can't speak today. Brandy, how does it feel to have messed up multiple times?

It does not feel great. You know that I hate it. Do you think one day you'll wake up and be like, you know what? Sometimes we humans, we make mistakes. No, because I must be perfect every moment. Oh, good. That's healthy. That's super healthy.

I'm sure that'll work out great for you. Good plan. Yeah. Okay. So paper mache mask of his face. He was told to bring this paper mache mask for some kind of activity during the orientation weekend. That sounds terrible. I agree.

Yeah. And Denise offered to help him with the mask. So on March 12, 2017, Martre was to ride a bus from Richmond, Virginia, where he lived, to Winter Park, Florida, for this visit. It was going to be like about a 500-mile bus trip, which, I don't know, doesn't sound great to me. But he was super excited for it. bus trip, which, I don't know, doesn't sound great to me, but he was super excited for it. And then he would go to a hotel and then someone from the university would come pick him up from the hotel to take him to campus. It was all set up. And Martre was really looking forward to it. On the morning of March 12th, his sister Michelle dropped him off at home as he'd spent the night

with her before. He said he was going to have Denise help him with that mask. Nothing like putting off the project to the last second, but no judgment here. Well, it sounds like a terrible project. I agree. Yes. Also, some of these orientation projects, I remember we had to read a book for orientation. And let me tell you, I read the shit out of that book. I took copious notes.

And then they didn't even mention it during the orientation. It was mentioned in passing. I was prepared like there was going to be an exam. A discussion? Yeah. An exam that would determine the rest of your college career. Yeah. Okay, anyway.

So that morning, Michelle drops him off at home. He's got to make the mask before he gets on his bus later that afternoon. So Denise said she was going to help him. that morning, Michelle drops him off at home. He's got to make the mask before he gets on his bus later that afternoon. So, Denise said she was going to help him. So, Michelle drops him off and then something happened. And we'll find out what after this ad.

Doodle-oo. And we're back from the ad. Doodle-oo. Doodle-oo. Okay, so Michelle dropped Martre off that morning, knew he was going to work on this project and then go get on his bus. And she expected a text from Martre letting her know that he'd gotten to the bus stop safely, that he'd boarded it. Safely? Did I say safely? You sure did.

Fuck, this is a disaster. You are a mess. Oh, my goodness. Safely. Six silly snakes. Ew. I had a lisp when I was a little kid. Did you really?

Yeah, my mom had me say that over and over and over again until I didn't have a lisp anymore. Yeah? Yeah. Six silly snakes. And look at you today. Now I can't say. Fucking up. That's right.

Now I can't say safely. Now my lips, they're too dry. They got stuck together. I bet can't say safely. Now my lips got, they're too dry. They got stuck together. I bet you wish you had some of my... I don't want your, no. Your bacteria balm. There's still some of my lip gloss in my gently used old

Costco lip gloss. Okay. It's from 2020 which is new for me. Oh my gosh. What?, which is new for me. Oh, my gosh. What? I'm so concerned for you. I'm concerned for you. You don't know basic words.

But Martre never text Michelle. Similarly, Ashlyn had sent several texts to Martre throughout the morning and Martre hadn't responded to any of them. This was super unusual. He always texted, always called, always responded. They were super, super close. Ashlyn was expecting Martre to reach out so that they could see each other real quick for a goodbye before he boarded his bus and took off on his trip, but he never did. Martre never talked to anyone. So Marquisha and Michelle immediately were concerned. So later that same afternoon,

they go to their dad's house and they're like, have you guys talked to Martre? And Denise was there. And so was Latoya, her older daughter. And they're like, yeah, he left for the bus. Oh, gosh. And they're like, like, that seems it seems weird because he didn't say anything to us. He's not responding to our messages. And like, no, he came here. We helped him with his project. And then he got on his bus.

So then Michelle actually got worried that maybe that was true. But she had had a conversation with Martre that morning when she was driving him home about his depression. And he said that it was just so bad that really he felt like he was just ready to be with his mom. And so Michelle was like, oh, my gosh, did he like make us all think he was going to go on this trip? And then he went somewhere and harmed himself somehow. And so Michelle and Marquesha, I think I may have called her Marquisha a second ago. Her name is for sure Marquisha.

Impossible. You've been at the top of your game this whole time. Stop it! So they're very concerned for Martre immediately. Yeah. And so they start going to places that he frequented, seeing if anybody has seen him, seeing if they can find him anywhere. But there's no sign of him.

That I don't know. Damn it, Brandy. I'm sorry. Okay. I'm sorry. Where would I go for you? Yeah, if you were looking for me, what are the places I frequent? Okay, well, you know, we're going to take out the obvious, you know, your work and your home. Yeah. Hmm. Where else might I be? Okay, okay. I would check Oak Park Mall. Sure. Just, you know, to be on the safe side. Maybe I'd check a Jimmy John's. You do enjoy a Jimmy John's.

Oh, gosh. You might be kind of a hard person to track down. Yeah, yeah. Maybe a bowling alley. Oh, I do. Yeah, I do like a bowling alley. Uh-huh. Yeah.

But you're not going to any new places. You wouldn't be hard to track down at all. No. I just have to figure out where have you been before. And I'm nowhere near the fucking city, so don't even worry about that. Yeah. You're somewhere with ample parking, I'll tell you that. Absolutely.

Okay, now what about me? Where are you going? I just come here. But I'm not here. Okay, then I'm for sure. Yeah. Oh, no. If you're not here, you're dead.

Yeah, basically. I know it for sure. Yeah, I know. If you're not here, you're dead. Yeah, basically. I know it right then. Either I'm walking the dogs and we'll be back in 20 minutes. Yeah, which I would just, you know, yeah. If like 30 minutes pass and you still aren't here, I'm like, that's it. She's dead. Yeah. And then you call the police and they're like, well, ma'am, we really need 24 hours.

Not for this bitch you don't. Not for this bitch you don't. No. I know her. This lady is boring. She does not leave her home.

No, so Marquisha and Michelle are really worried at this point. They go to their dad and they tell him that they're worried and he's like, why? He's fine. he's fine he's fine why was he not concerned he thought everything's fine he's surely on his trip and he'll get in contact with us when he wants to he's like he's a he's a 19 year old man he can do what he wants

yeah but you know this 19 year old man well man. Well, so that's what Marshall and Marquesha said. They're like, no. Nope. He's not fine. We want to go report him missing. And their dad was like, no, that's not necessary. He's fine. But they didn't listen to him. They went ahead and went and made the missing person report.

So they go and report him missing. And then they go and, like, the only people who seem really concerned about this are Michelle, Marquisha, and Ashlyn. And so the three of them kind of put their heads together. And Ashlyn actually had a joint email account with Martre. They shared an email account. Wait, who is Ashlyn again? His girlfriend.

His girlfriend. Okay. Yes. So they have a joint email account. Man, that's some 40-year-old. They are like. His girlfriend. Okay. Yes. So they have a joint email account. Man, that's some 40-year-old. They are like a married couple. Okay. All right.

Like legitimately. They are 19, but they were like. They are 45. Yeah. Okay. Yes. And so she's like, let me look through these emails. So she logs into the email account and she specifically goes to look at the emails from

full sale. Yes, because it turns out they're all bullshit because I predicted this. So she's looking at it and she's like holy shit no these are from a gmail account no no no no she's like this would not be it would be like at full sale.edu like yeah yeah so there's it's it's a woman's name at gmail and that woman is who said that is who, you know, purported to be writing these emails. But Martre had never thought anything of or maybe hadn't even noticed. Right.

The email address that they came from. You're just so excited that you got accepted. Yes. But Ashlyn was looking at these and she's like, these aren't real. And then I believe that Michelle and Marquisha looked at them, too. And there were some spelling errors and stuff in them. And they're like, oh, and there were some spelling errors and stuff in them. And they're like, holy shit.

And so they're like, this whole thing isn't real. What is this? Like, what is going on here? But I don't know. It seems like even when they took that information to their dad, he still seemed unconcerned. Okay. And again, he's like, you know what, maybe he just needed some time and he's just doing his own thing for a while. And honestly, that's kind of what the police said, too.

They're like, he's a 19-year-old man. If he wants to leave, he can leave. There's not a lot we can do. Sure, he can leave. But it sure seems like he was duped into this. Yeah. Yes. I agree.

I think when you find this out, that these emails are fake, this changes. Clearly someone is trying to lure him somewhere. Exactly. Oh. Exactly. But even with the emails, it seems that the police were just like, well, he's a 19-year-old kid. He can do what he wants. So three weeks went by.

And then on April 2nd, 2017, a guy, he's like a, I think he's like, I don't know, some kind of maintenance man, something like that. He was on his lunch break going for a walk. He was walking through kind of an industrial park, but there's like a wooded area near the industrial park. So he was walking through the wooded area. park, but there's like a wooded area near the industrial park. So he was walking through the wooded area and he noticed a big like rubber made plastic tote in this wooded area. And he noticed that there was like a tennis shoe sticking out of the top of it. Oh, God.

And so he thought maybe this was like a tub of discarded like clothes and shoes and stuff. Oh, poor guy. Oh, he thinks. And so he walks over and he kind of pulls the lid off to see what's inside. And inside was the body of a young black man. Yeah. Folded up like accordion style with his arms bound behind his back. His wrists were bound with that.

You know that like self-stick bandage stuff that they use. Like if you get your blood drawn, they like wrap it around you once. Keep your little cotton swab on. It was like that. It was like purple self-stick bandage stuff. Yeah, I never look when they do that part, but I've seen the after effects. Yeah. Oh, I watched the whole thing.

You fucking weirdo. I stare intently at the wall. Oh, I watched the whole thing. You fucking weirdo. I stare intently at the wall. Oh, no. Like, sometimes even they have to, like, fish around a little bit. Oh, God. Yeah, no. Doesn't bother me. Oh, my God, Brandy.

You know, like, with my thyroid disease, I have had periods of time where I have to get my blood drawn, like, every couple of weeks to check my levels. I think I would freak out every time. I'm so used to it. I'd be known as the woman who's like, well, we've got to tell her a story. Yeah, no. Like even like one time I remember, for whatever reason, they were having the worst time trying to get a vein. And they were like, okay, we really don't want to have to do this, but we might have to do your wrist. Oh, God.

Oh, my God, Brandi. That's fine. Don't even tell me this stuff. It was fine. They're like, okay, are you ready? And it was fine. It was no big deal at all. I am going to pass out just hearing this.

Really? Yes. All right, whatever. It does not bother me at all. Holy shit. Yeah. I can't even handle when they're like, they try to tell me something reassuring, like, it's okay, you're really veiny. I'm like, ah!

No! Don't even tell me that! I know I'm veiny! God, I'm clutching my bosom. Yeah, you are. Okay. Okay, so back to... It's quite ample.

Back to this, okay, great. Back to this terrible discovery now. I'm sorry, I'm trying to. I know, you're trying to stall. Yeah. Yeah. this terrible discovery now. I'm sorry.

I'm trying to. I know. You're trying to stall. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously he calls the police and they come to the scene and they collect this tote. They then do a search

of their missing person database to see who this might be. And it just comes back with only one hit that matches the description of who they have there. And it's Martre Coles. Yeah, the guy who they didn't look for at all.

Look for when his sisters filed a missing person report. Yeah. Yep. So then they do a search of the DMV database where they store the driver's license pictures. And sure enough, it's a match. So they identify this as Martre Coles. identify this as Martre-Coles. An autopsy is done and the medical examiner's office determined that Martre had died from asphyxia, but they could not say like what method was used. It wasn't clear if he had suffocated because he was in the tub or if he had been suffocated and then placed in the tub. But a toxicology report found that he had trazodone and GHB in his system.

OK, what's that? Trazodone is a sleeping pill. Oh. And GHB is the date rape drug. Oh, God. Yeah. So both slow breathing, like that's one of the effects of both of those drugs. Like that's one of the effects of both of those drugs. So together they could be used to slow someone's breathing enough, suppress somebody's respiratory system enough to kill them.

Yeah. But they didn't know if that was, again, what caused his death. But he did have those in his system. Yeah. So he's been identified and they're like, OK, we've got to go let his family know that we found him. But like as the officers are like walking out of the station to go make this notification to the Coles family, someone stops them. It's this overnight sergeant. And he's like, hey, hold on just a second.

sergeant and he's like hey hold on just a second read this report about this incident from a couple days ago before you go do this notification okay and they're like okay and so investigators who were working this case now were given a police report that was made on March 31st. So on that date, two officers responded to a call at the Coles house. It was a burglar alarm, alarm, burglar alarm call. The burglar alarm went off. The security alarm went off. How about that? It was a security alarm call security security alarm call uh and so it was i don't know fairly late at night and they showed up because of this security alarm call and when they got there um latoya gay was at the house denise gay was at the house alana gay was at the house and latoya immediately was like you guys do not need to be here. This is a false alarm. Alana got in trouble and she set off the alarm on purpose.

You do not need to be here. Okay. And so they're like, okay. And the police are familiar with this house, with this family because of Alana's behavioral issues. She'd run away a couple of times. There'd been altercations. So they are familiar with this family and also they have the missing person thing going on but there's no mention of that at this at this particular date right okay so latoya tells them that and then alana's like, hey, can I talk to you guys?

And they're like, yeah, absolutely. And so they pull her outside away from her mom and her sister. And she talks to one of the officers. And all of this is captured on body cam footage, which is in the killer motive episode. And she says to the police officers that she needs to tell them something. And she speaks so matter-of-factly. Mm-hmm. Calm as can be.

And she's like, how old is this girl? She's like 12 at this point. Okay. And they're like, what's up? What do you need to tell us? She's like, I watched my mom and sister kill my stepbrother. No. Mm-hmm. And they're like, what?

And she's like, yeah, yeah, I watched my mom and sister kill my stepbrother. And so the police officer is like, okay, Alana, I know we've had some interactions in the past. I know that you have had some issues with being truthful in the past. There was even one incident where she made a claim that Martre had molested her. Oh, wow. And the police got involved. And then she was like, it turns out she had made the whole thing up. OK.

And so so they're like, do you understand that it is a crime to lie to a police officer? And she's like, yes, I do. And they're like, are you being truthful right now? And she says, I am. And the police officer is like, OK, tell me. Tell me what happened. When did this happen? She said a couple of weeks ago.

She said that she was in her room. She heard a noise, a commotion of some kind. She thought it was a scream at first. So she kind of opened her bedroom door and she could see into Martre's room. And she saw her mom and her sister holding Martre down. And he had something white over his face. And she watched for a little bit. And they were like holding him down.

He was kicking. He screamed, get off of me at one point and then her she said her mom realized that she was watching and she snapped around and looked at her and told her to get back in her room that nothing was going on and so she did what she was told she closed the door and then a little while later, she said she heard a dragging sound in the attic. Oh, God. And that she let a little bit of time pass. And then she opened her door just a crack and looked out and saw that there was a giant. She said it was almost like a minty green color tub.

It's really like a light gray. But I like that you're gonna argue on this so she sees that there's this big tub yeah that now her mom and sister are dragging through the house she watched them loaded in the car and then drive away with it so she's telling the officers this what are the mom and sister doing during this time? They're just in the house, I believe. Okay. So she tells one officer this. He calls the other officer over and says, tell him what you just told me.

She says it again, very matter-of-factly. Yeah. No emotion, nothing. Just these are the facts. This is what I saw. Okay. No emotion, nothing. Just these are the facts.

This is what I saw. Okay. And the police officers just leave and make a report about it. What? They don't see if her brother has been reported missing. What the fuck? They just make a report. You are kidding me. You are kidding me. No!

That is literally all they do. They file a report. And if this overnight sergeant hadn't remembered the report and then had his memory jogged when these guys are about to go make this death notification, the investigators in Martre's case may have not even known about this. You know, if we had a problem with racism, I might suspect. But we don't. So that rules that out. That's outrageous.

I agree. Yeah. So these investigators are now like, holy is there truth this because the the things that she said match the evidence that they have at this point fuck these officers holy shit is there truth to this you look into it right well no okay no so the new investigators the investigators on her trace case not the original police who took the report. Okay. They didn't know about it when it happened. For the record, fuck them. Yes, that's

fine. You can fuck the officers who took the report and did nothing. I don't want to fuck them. I want no one to fuck them. No fucks. You want no one to ever fuck them again? Unless they don't like being fucked, in which case, well, no, I don't want anyone to be raped. No one needs to be raped. Okay, I'm going down a weird... You went too far.

I do. You went too far. The Christy Prince story. You've come around to the other side somehow. You know what? I just don't want good things for them. How about that? So now, the investigators who are investigating Martre's case after the discovery of his body are like...

I just slurped really hard on my iced coffee. I didn't realize I was so close to the bottom of it. I'm a little frustrated. Yeah. And frankly, I blame you and also the original officer. Okay, blame... It's not my fault. How dare you lure me into this story.

Okay. Where the police officers are so fucking stupid. Yeah, so they're like, holy shit. We can't tell them that we have found Martre. Because obviously the people in the family are the suspects here. in the family are the suspects here. Yes. And so they decide to look into Denise. They're like, what's this woman's story? Like, what's the deal here? They run a background check on her and they find that she has felonies galore, mostly for fraud, passing bad checks. She has convictions in multiple states.

She's served time in multiple states. Yeah. And so they're, like, suspicious as hell of Denise now. Why are you making that face? Because. why are you making that face because first of all because i can't help it i was born this way baby i got great genetics sorry but also how do you hear a story like this from a child which sure it could be made up yeah you don't know yeah why little digging? Just the most basic looking into it. Yeah.

Yeah. I agree. Absolutely. It's, I hate shit like this where something is so easily solved if only someone cared. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Why did it take so long to find someone who cared? Right. Exactly. Gee, I wonder. Anyhow. Yeah. So they find all this stuff about Denise and they're like, OK, she's bad, bad, real bad. This is very concerning.

And then they also, in the course of the missing person investigation, what little investigation they had done on Maitre. They had done no investigation. They had listened to a story. Yes. And no, no, no, no. When the sisters reported him missing. Oh, I see. Yes. I'm sorry. I'm so fired up. You know. I'm just bang, bang, bang. I'll calm down a little.

How about that? Okay. So what little investigation had been done when Martre was reported missing, the police had noted that Maurice— Hold on. They had an investigation. I was right. They did the tiniest amount of investigation.

No, they just said he's 19 and we don't care. Basically. But they did interview his dad, and they thought he was not concerned. He said the same thing. He's just off on his own. And so now they're like, okay, this guy wasn't even like wasn't concerned that his son was gone. Like, it's possible he's in it and on this, too. And so they're like, we can't tell fucking anybody in the family that we have found Martre's body.

Yeah. So instead, they decided to do a couple things. They brought in Michelle and Marquesha and did follow up interviews with them on this episode of Killer Motive Michelle and Marquesha

so these are Martre's sisters they say this was like a full on interrogation they said it was I think

like they went hard on them they were asking why? I think they wanted to make sure that no one else like these

they wanted to rule out the sisters as being involved. The ones who actually fucking cared. Yes. I don't, I think it was a tool that they were using, but so they bring them in, they ask who was the last person he was with? Where was he going? Who's the last person that talked to him? All of that stuff.

And then they ask, they asked them to give DNA samples. All right. So on this episode, the sisters say that, like, at that time, when they were asked for the DNA swabs, they both were like, he's dead. They found his body. Like, in their heads, they just knew that was the reason. Yeah, that'd be awful. But they didn't want to let themselves believe that yet, but they both had that thought in their minds. Yeah, you would. You would.

Yeah. And if they're not telling you, you almost don't even want to ask because then it's going to have to become real. Yeah. So then they brought in Denise and Latoya, did similar things with them. Conversations, what was the family home like,

you know, whatever. And Denise and Latoya both, you know, acted like they knew nothing. They didn't have very many answers for the police on anything, but they weren't under arrest or anything. And so they both left and the police tailed them after they left their interviews. They didn't go to where they put his body. So not exactly, but Latoya drove directly to an area that overlooks it. Oh, my God.

And they believed, the police believed that she was doing that to see if there was police activity in that area. Sure. She could see police tape or anything like that. Like she didn't walk to the actual area, but she could have seen the general area from where she parked. So they're like, okay, like they are definitely involved here. Okay. So they're like, okay. Like, they are definitely involved here. Yeah. So they set up a trail cam in the area where they had discovered Martre's body. Yeah.

And a few days go by, and finally. They caught Bigfoot. No. That was rude. They did finally capture someone. Someone drives up to the area, parks their car, gets out, walks into the woods, looks around a little bit and then leaves. Who? It was difficult to tell.

Yeah, I know. They had a hood up. Yeah. And it's probably black and white, right? But they recognized the car. Oh. Okay. Do you want to guess whose car it was? The new lady mom, Lenora. Denise.

I am so terrible with names. My God. Not a single Lenora in this whole case. There's not? There's a Latoya. Oh, damn it. What you don't know is that there's a new character. You're introducing a new character now?

Her name's Lenora? No. She's been in on this the whole time. No, it was Maurice's car. Martre's dad. Really? Yes. Oh, I did not expect that.

And not just because I can't remember anyone's name. But the stature of the person on the camera didn't match Maurice's. Oh. So they do some looking into some. Enhance? No. Cell phone records. Because I don't know if you've heard this before, Kristen.

What's that? But cell phones go ping. Huh? Cell towers go pong. Oh, do they? And we know your location all the day long. My goodness. Why don't more true crime shows say that?

It's so smart. Maurice was at work. Mm-hmm. But you know whose phone pinged right there? Not Lenora's because I made her up. No, that's not a real person. Denise's. Denise's. Yeah. It was Denise on camera. So they're like, okay, yeah, that's, that's for sure who we got here. So they arrest Denise and Latoya both. Denise, they bring in and they tell her that they know that she knows exactly what happened to Martre. And she goes, I do? Oh. And they're like, yeah, you do.

Don't be coy. Yeah. She doesn't give them anything. Okay. She does not cooperate. She doesn't say anything. She acts very shocked by everything. Okay, Brandy. The law is that when you put your hand on your chest like that you have to say good heavens good heavens me yes yeah they they tell

her the last time you saw martre he was dead inside a plastic container oh shit and she goes she like she she doesn't say any words she just like motions i was gonna say we are i know i know no imagine the motion that goes along with that noise everybody gets it and that was all of the interrogation that was available on this show after that she's placed under arrest and initially on april 10th 2017 Denise Gay and LaToya Gay were arrested and charged with second-degree murder. Okay. Those charges were later upgraded once they did the full investigation.

So Denise's computer was seized during the investigation that followed after her arrest. Computer was seized during the investigation that followed after her arrest. And they were able to determine that those fake emails from Full Sail University came from her computer. Why did she do this? Or am I jumping ahead? No, we can talk about it now because we don't really know. The belief, what Michelle and Marquisha believe, is that Denise wanted Martre out of the house. He was too much of a reminder of his mom and that she feared that maybe eventually Maurice would maybe see through her and side with his son. And that would be the end of this little arrangement she had living with Maurice.

And so she had to get rid of him. And this was all a ruse to lure him to her house so she could make the mask. That is how she killed him. Oh, fuck. That is how she killed him. Oh, fuck. Suffocated him while making the paper mache mask that he had to take with him to this campus visit. So the belief is that at some point she somehow drugged him.

Yeah. Before doing this, maybe gave him a drink that was laced with something. Got him to lay down. Thought that would be enough to incapacitate him so it would be easy to suffocate him with this mask. Right. But as they were putting the papier-mâché on his face, he started complaining that they were covering his mouth and nose. And that's the commotion that Elena heard. Oh, my God. And that's the commotion that Elena heard.

Oh, my God. She comes out. They tell her to go away. And then they just held him down with that paper mache on his face until he died. Until they murdered him. Yeah. I don't know why I'm like, you know, okay, here's where my brain's going. My brain's going, this doesn't make sense. And, like, none of this shit ever makes sense. No, it doesn't fucking make sense. But it's where my brain's going. My brain's going, this doesn't make sense. And, like, none of this shit ever makes sense.

No, it doesn't fucking make sense. But it's like, he's 19. If you really want to get rid of him, help him apply to more schools. Exactly! Help him get into college! Or just be like, hey, I want to put down your first and last month's rent at some place, you know, an hour away. So that's the other aspect of it. She made this grand gesture of helping him get into the school.

She never actually even applied for him. She told him that she'd taken care of the whole thing. They never had any record of him applying or anything. But she could have even more easily. Exactly. But she made this big thing about, I'm going to pay for you to go to school. She didn't have any fucking money.

She had this fraudulent behavior all in her background. This is just all part of her behavior that she has done over and over again in her life. I know. I'm just like. Yeah. And she could have even just been like, I'll help you fill out the application for student loans. Right. I mean, there could.

Yeah. No. Why am I talking like a murderer? There's a very logical way to get Martre out of the house if that's really what you want. Yeah. No. She was... He's a very talented artist. He absolutely could have gotten into art school. Just help him fucking

do that. Right. They show his art on this episode of Killer Motive. It's wonderful. Yeah. Would you steal it from a museum? No. Is that just on principle? Yes, because it is a deeply stupid crime. Yeah, that's the whole

theory. That's so stupid and awful. Awful. So awful. Yeah. Is this woman just a total piece of shit? Yes. All right.

Yes. Mystery solved. Yeah. Yeah, I think you have to be a total piece of shit to murder this 19-year-old kid who now sees you as a mother figure because his mom died and... Oh, God. Yeah. He trusted her.

Right. Right. He thought she was helping him achieve his dreams. Yeah, he was excited. And this is what she fucking did to him. Because he was, like, inconvenient. Yeah, so what Michelle says on the Killer Motive episode is basically, like, Martre looked so much like his mom that it would just be a reminder every time. Immediately when Denise moved in the house, she took down every picture of Karina.

Well, that's fucked up. Yeah. And so she thought that maybe that could be one thing. Martre was too big of a reminder of his mom. Yeah. And then also Maurice had been in a pretty deep depression as well when he moved Denise into the house. But time had passed. Yeah.

He was no longer in that state. And Michelle and Marquisha believe that maybe Denise got nervous that as he was no longer depressed, he wouldn't need her anymore. And maybe Martre would push him. It's tough when the people we love get healthy. Right. No fucking shit, right? It's terrible when people get the help they need. Yeah.

This is fucking terrible. This poor kid. Yeah. Your cases are normally so upbeat. No, I know. Yeah, your cases are normally so upbeat. No, I know. So, okay, so initially in April of 2017, Denise and LaToya Gay are arrested and charged with second-degree murder. Those charges were later upgraded to first-degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder.

And the decision was made to try Denise and LaToya together. And I, okay, we're talking, we're 2017 here. Somehow this trial begins in 2017, toward the end of 2017. I believe November of 2017. This is fast moving. Okay. They had public defenders? I assume so.

Okay. Yeah. To me, that's the only way this trial happens that fast, right? Yeah. I would think you'd want. Well, I guess I don't know. I don't know. I would think that your defense attorneys would want to have separate trials.

Yeah, no, this was not separated. One trial. OK. Yeah. OK. And Elena was the star witness. So she's 13 by this point. I know.

Yeah. That's just it. When you think about Elena and all of her behavior problems and stuff that she had. Yeah. It's all a product of this life that she lived with her mother. Of course. Yeah. And not getting any kind of help when she was, yeah, having these behavioral issues.

Right. So she testifies like over closed circuit TV. So she's in another room, but she's testifying. So she doesn't have to testify directly in front of her mother and sister. Good God. I can't even imagine. No, no, no. And so she testifies about what she saw that day.

You know, she talks about coming out of her room and all that. We've already talked about it. We don't have to go into it again. And she talks about how she saw the white thing on his face, which they've now determined was that mask. She tells that whole story and the defense tries to tear her testimony down. They tell the jury that she has a history of lying. They bring up the incidents that she's had before where she falsely claimed martyray of molestation and all of that. And they're like, she's lying to you again. The defense's take at this trial was. What?

To blame everything on Elena. Yep. Oh, my God. Denise and Latoya didn't do this. Elena did. And then they just did what they had to do to cover it up. Ew. It's disgusting.

Yeah. Disgusting. How do you explain the fucking emails then i suppose she did those two is that the story i don't know yeah i can't imagine i cannot being a mother and trying to blame this murder on your child yeah but also i can't imagine being a mother who would who would kill your stepchild or being a mother who would recruit your other child to help you murder your stepchild. Yeah. I can't imagine any of those fucking things. So. Well, we've all been there.

OK, so Elena testifies to all of this. The defense is like, she's fucking lying. It's all a lie. But the medical examiner gets up, talks about how Martre died, what was in his system, the trazodone. Denise had a prescription for trazodone. No idea how she got the GHB, but it's the day job. People get it. When Elena was questioned on the stand, there was a moment that the defense really liked. But I think this just says so much about Elena's life and what she had been through and how she processed things properly and needed to be in counseling. So at one point they ask her if she misses Martre.

And she says no. If she misses Martre. And she says no. And then they ask her if she's sad that Martre is dead. And again, she says no. Yeah, that does not mean that she's involved with his murder. Nope. It means she's probably a very troubled child. Troubled child, yes.

Who needs help. Intense child, yes. Who needs help. Intense counseling, yes. Yep. Yeah. The FBI was able to testify. They had some forensic. Yeah, they brought in an FBI forensic analyst who talked about how they examined Denise's computer and how they were able to determine that the emails from Full Sail were sent from her computer to Martre. And then they brought in a cell phone data expert who talked about the cell phone pings.

Denise's cell phone placed her at the dump site the day that Martre disappeared and the day that she was captured on that trail cam. And that's kind of the whole gist of the trial. The jury deliberated and they found Denise and Latoya guilty of conspiracy to commit murder. But they hung on the first degree murder charge. So they didn't fully believe the testimony? I don't know. I don't know. I could not find anything about why, like, if any of the jurors spoke out. Right. My thought was maybe they couldn't agree on, like, who was actually culpable in the murder. Oh, I see.

Yeah. Because Denise and Latoya are being tried together. Oh, yeah. So they hung on that. And in Virginia, a conspiracy to commit murder charge only carries a 10-year sentence. Brandy. Yeah. Okay, so this was smart to try them together.

It was. You know what I was thinking? I was thinking more like the mom's going to try to take the blame here. But no, that's –'m way off. Yeah, that no, I think it was intentional that the defense did not try and separate them because I do think this makes sense. I think as a juror, I would think, gosh, that poor daughter was just going along with what her mother was making her do. She's afraid of her mom, you know, right? How do I find her guilty of first degree murder? To me, that's that's what this says.

If you're about to tell me that they got anywhere close to 10 years. So then. OK. OK. Miss trial was declared only on the first degree murder charge. They had the conviction for conspiracy. Both were convicted of conspiracy sentenced to 10 years. And the prosecution's like, fuck, yes, we're we're trying them again for, they weren't like excited.

And everyone said language. No, no, no. They weren't like, yay, fuck yes. No, they were like, when they were asked if they were going to try them again, they were like, fuck yes, of course we're trying them again. So a retrial was set for April of 2018. This time they would be tried separately. Yeah. Interesting thing happened between the two trials.

Maurice Coles was not cooperative at the first trial. Okay. Was not interested in testifying, was not interested in cooperating in any way. Well, too damn bad. And then he heard all of the testimony at trial and was like, holy shit, they killed my son. Like he really did not believe. He didn't know anything about the stabbing until trial. Like that was brought up at trial.

And so he decides that he is going to cooperate completely with the next trial. And he hands over something that has been in his home that was never seized by police. It is a handbag. They call it a pocketbook on the episode. That could be a wallet. They're in Virginia. I don't know. They can't help it.

And they don't know that we often refer to vagina as pocketbooks. And inside was a cell phone of Denise Gaze that had never been found by police. Well, what the hell? And on that cell phone were a bunch of text messages back and forth between Denise and Latoya discussing dumping the body. Oh, my God. And then discussing when Denise went back to try and move the tote after the pressure was on them. So that's when she was captured on the trail cam. So there's this series of texts back and forth. Latoya was out of town.

She was in North Carolina and she told her mom, wait until I get back. We'll do it together. You're not going to be able to do it by yourself. And Denise is like, we don't have time. I've got to do it. I'll be fine. And then she gets there and she just sends back. I didn't see it. Wow. Yeah. In addition to those text messages, there is search history on the phone of how to dispose of a body.

What does lime do to a body? What substances like chloroform i can't believe she kept this cell phone i know did the podcast ladies say that that was where that was one of the things yeah i'm with them yeah yes yeah so the only difference that i found between these two trials is that Maurice testifies heavily at the second trial against Denise. He testifies at Denise's trial. He's on the stand. And the prosecution's whole case is like reiterating that Denise threw Martre away like he was trash.

Yeah. threw Martre away like he was trash. Yeah. So Maurice Coles is on the stand and the prosecution says, I'm sorry I have to ask you this, but did you kill Martre Coles? And Maurice says no. Yeah. And then they ask, did you help kill Martre Coles?

And again, he says no. And then they ask did you help cover up the murder of Martre Coles? And again Maurice says no. And this is all backed up. Like all of this stuff like he isn't involved in any of it. It seems that he really just

did not think that Denise would be capable of this. Like he truly did not believe that she had killed his son until he sat through the first trial. Holy shit. Yeah. Yeah. So then he testifies some about the day that Martre went missing and how he didn't he really wasn't concerned about it. He assumed he went on his trip and he would get in contact them when he wanted and then he talked about that evening when Michelle

and Marquesha came over and they were really concerned about Martre and he said that Denise was really weird that night he says looking back Denise's behavior that night was really weird she was really touchy-feely with daughters, like hugging them and consoling them. And he said they did not like each other. So this was super out of the ordinary. And he said, you know, they wanted to go file the missing person report and he told them he thought it was too soon. He said, I didn't think he was missing at all. He didn't have anywhere to go.

He said he didn't really believe that Martre was missing at all until Karina's birthday passed. He said when that day passed and he wasn't there, like we do something every year to commemorate her birthday. We get together as a family. When Martre was not here that day, I knew something had happened to him.

He said he could have run off with a cult and he would have made sure he was there to celebrate that with us. Yeah. He talked about the last conversation that he and Martre had had kind of leading up to this whole art school thing. And he was talking about how, you know, he wanted to do this. He didn't know if he was capable of doing it.

Martre was and that he'd had a conversation with Maurice and Denise and was like I just I really want to do this but I don't have any idea how to seek out higher education I don't I don't know anything about it and Maurice testified that at that moment Denise jumped up and was just gung-ho and ready to help him god that's it was as if like she immediately calculated this plan at that moment yep yeah he also testified about how like a couple days later he saw a white paper mache mask on the floor oh god in his house he threw it away you didn't know what it was yeah oh so following this trial denise gay was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to life in prison in a separate trial latoya gay who was 23 by now she was also found guilty of first degree murder, but she was sentenced to 20 years in prison.

I believe that there was some some question of, you know. Yeah. Culpability here. Yeah. Yeah. I completely believe that she was forced to do this by her mother. And if not forced. Yeah.

Like. Yeah. I mean, her mother had power. Yeah. Like. Yeah. I mean, her mother had power over her for sure. Absolutely. There's absolutely a power dynamic here. Yeah. And that is the story of the murder of Martre Coles. Oh.

That's so senseless. Yeah. She could have just fucking helped him get into art school. Or get an apartment somewhere. Fucking murder him? What? Yeah, that's... Because Denise is in prison,

Elena does not have a guardian anymore and I believe has been placed in state custody and I believe is finally receiving counseling and the things that she really needs. Gosh. So I hope she is. I hope she's doing as well as she can. Doing as well as she can. Absolutely.

My God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ooh. Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Ooh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

That's my feelings on this one, too. All right. Yep. Well, that's what we call a brandy case. It is. I'm sorry. I just feel so terrible for Mark Trey. Yeah.

It's just awful. Yeah, his mom dies. Like, his favorite person in the world, his mom. And then this other woman comes in, and he's, like, pretty standoffish to her originally. As you would be. And then he lets her in, lets her take on a stepmom role in his life. Maurice and Denise never got married, but she definitely was. Well, sure.

She's in the home. Yes. Yeah. She's a mother figure. Yeah. A mother figure to him. She trusts him. No.

He trusts her. He trusts her. Yeah. And this is what she fucking does to him. Bleh. Yeah. Okay. Name the podcast again.

Sisters Who Kill. All right. Yeah. Check it out. Yeah. Okay. Name the podcast again. Sisters Who Kill. All right. Yeah. Check it out. And you know what we should do right now? An ad. Doodaloo. Doodaloo.

And we're back from the ad. Should we take some questions from the Discord? We should. But first, let me tell them how to get in there. Oh, yeah. Tell them. First, you have to climb every mountain. Cross every stream. Oh sure.

Yeah. I can't remember the rest of the words. I don't either. We're doing a sound and music thing though, right? Isn't that what that's from? Wow, way to ruin it. Yes. Climb every mountain. Cross every stream. Blah, blah, blah,

blah, blah, blah. Pay $5 at our Patreon. And you get into the Discord. And when we record, we're like, hey, does anyone have questions? And some people are like, I do. And then we read some of them and we answer some of them.

And how about that? That is a thing we do. Thanks for backing me up. I was very nervous. No bullshit. It's all true. Oh, I feel like this is a complicated question. Miles exists, says who's more likely to win in a physical fight, Kristen or Brandy? Are we fighting each other? Yes. OK, I believe that's how I'm choosing to take this question. All right. See, I think it's interesting because I outweigh you, obviously, so I think I could take you down, but you're fast, so you could run away from

me. Yeah. Yeah. I'm also crafty. If I corner you, I'm for sure winning. Yeah, fuck yeah. I climb over you. No. You're not a fucking frog. I think... In your scenario, we're engaged in some kind of warfare, a fight, and you turn it into a game of leapfrog?

Here's why I win. I do whatever I've got to do. I'm not worried about how it looks. I'm not worried about what the rules are exactly. I just know... Oh, see, that is where you would get me, because I'd be like, wait, is that against the rules? I can't break the rules. You're right.

I would also fight dirty. You would. You totally would. And I wouldn't. Hey, you're not supposed to agree so heartily. You're supposed to be like, oh, Kristen, but you're a good person. Well, yeah, of course. But no, you would.

You'd bend the rules. You'd break them. Yeah. You would. And only if I really felt like I was at risk of losing. Because we'd have a no faces rule, but you'd probably do something to my face. No, I wouldn't. Nope.

Nope. Nope. That's not where I would go. Okay. Oh, you're going to pull my clothes off. Yep. That's exactly what I'm going to do. That's exactly what you're going to do.

That's exactly. You've disarmed me completely. Yeah. And to be clear, when I say pull your clothes off, I mean just like. You're just going to like pull my shirt up over my head or something. No, even just a couple inches. I'll lift that emotional support cami and you will be donezo. Donezo.

So to the audience at home, because obviously this would be like a pay-per-view fight, you know. Yeah. Huge moneymaker for everyone involved. They'd be like, well, we're not even really sure what happened there. Yeah. Because they wouldn't be like, oh, Kristen disrobed her opponent. Yeah. That is what you, yeah.

But you would know. That is, that'd be the winning move. And I would know. Okay. They'd call it the midriff whammy. Okay. They'd call it the mid-drift whammy. I quite enjoyed that question. That was a good question.

Amando Duke wants to know, did you ever try to run away as a kid? Hell yeah, I did. Okay, I never attempted to run away, but I did have a go bag packed just in case. Just in case anyone yelled off. I guess I should never need it. What was in your go bag? I'm sure, like, fucking a stuffed animal. Like, nothing that would do me any good.

Just so much beef jerky and bottled water. Yes. Yeah. No, I remember my parents were acting a fool. Yeah. As they do. Yeah. To this day. Yeah. I remember my parents were acting a fool. Yeah. As they do. Yeah. To this day.

Yeah. To this day. And so I threatened them with running away, and they were not scared, which was very upsetting. That is upsetting. My parents both said, okay, bye, we'll miss you. So I packed a bag. I remember my suitcase vividly. It was purple, and it had a picture of a little girl on the outside of it. And it said to grandmother's house, I go.

Was it like a little red riding hood on it? I don't exactly remember. I feel like it was maybe kind of precious moments. Oh, yeah, probably. Yeah. So a moment of silence there. Anyway, I realized that my parents weren't worried about me leaving. Yeah.

So instead I manipulated. They didn't think there was any real risk of you. No. Taking off. I manipulated my younger sister. Sure. Kyla. Friend of the pod.

Yeah. And she cried. And she got so upset that my dad then had to pretend to care that I was leaving. I got all the way out of the driveway. Oh, shit. I don't mean to alarm you, Brandy. I was still in view of the house. Yeah.

But still. Yeah. I could have. There was a real risk there that you were just taken right off. Total risk. Yeah. I should point out that my go bag was a miniature backpack, so I wouldn't have made it long. And a stuffed animal was definitely taken up the bulk of it.

Just the bare necessity. I was very into stuffed animals as a kid. Yeah. Yeah. And you are to this day. No, I don't have. A furry, you call yourself. Oh, I was going to say, no, there's no stuffed animals in my room.

But that is a lie. David has a giant Snorlax in our room. Oh, what? A stuffed Snorlax. What's a Snorlax? It's a Pokemon. Oh, what? A stuffed Snorlax. What's a Snorlax? It's a Pokemon. Oh, my goodness. He has pajamas on.

Not generally, not in Pokemon, but our Snorlax has pajamas on. So you've dressed your stuffed animal. Well, it's a Build-A-Bear. You, wait. Wait. No. It was a limited edition Build-A-Bear that I ordered online for David from the kids as his Father's Day present one year. It was very cute. And if you hit his foot, he snores.

David loves it. So when you're making love. No. The Snorlax is involved in no way. And don't call it making love. But it does watch when you're making love. No. The snore likes is involved in no way. And don't call it making love. But it does watch when you make whoopie. Well, I mean, yeah, when he's not on the bed. Does it snore?

So sometimes when David. And are you offended? No. So sometimes when David makes the bed, he'll put him on the bed. Not usually, but occasionally he will. But then he's like on the bed. But then when he's not on the bed, he just sits atop our laundry bag hampers. Just monitoring.

Monitoring the situation. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I actually don't. Anyway, how did we get here? I'm not sure. I don't know why you revealed such embarrassing information.

I would have had to be paid handsomely. Remunerated, if you will. Oh, it's remunerated. Remunerated, if you will. The people have spoken. It's remunerated. There's nothing quite so humiliating as not knowing the definition of the word. And mispronouncing it.

Which is what you did last week. Not me, though. Anyway, London, also very into stuffies. She sleeps with, like, eight stuffies every night. Yeah, and you know what? She's three. Yep. That's true.

Nothing weird there. I don't, like, snuggle a stuffed animal every night. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He was just hanging out with us, watching us sleep. Yeah. Yeah. It was totally normal stuff.

Whatever. You got stuffed animals all over the place. They're for the dogs. You have a kinky-ass stuffed animal here. Listen. You have a stuffed cat wearing fucking fishnets. Okay. Well, that's BarkBox's fault.

That's not my fault. They send you themed gifts. And yeah, they sent us a sexy cat for Halloween last year. I'm not going to throw the sexy cat out. Kit loves it. She carries that thing around all the time. Well, sure. If you had a sexy cat, I'm sure you would, too.

Every time you leave, I check to see that it's still in the house because I suspect it'll join the Snorlax. Ooh, ooh, ooh. Okay. Labia Lounge says, I need a new show rec. Got anything good? We'll also settle for a book rec. Okay. I actually do have a show that I've been watching. I don't think it's going to be for everybody, but I had never heard of this, so I'm spreading the word.

It is a stars program. All right. It is called- Gigolos. Shining Veil. What's that? Okay. It is Courtney Cox and Greg Kinnear.

They're a married couple. Courtney Cox had an affair with their handyman or something like that. They lived in Manhattan or something. And then like now they've moved upstate out of the city to start over. They've got two kids and they move into a haunted house. It is a comedy horror TV show. Oh, that is so you. It's so me.

And it's like there's little nods to The Shining and stuff like that. Like the curtains in the house or the carpet from The Shining. And I'm really enjoying it. We've only watched like three episodes of it, but I really enjoy it. Very good. Yeah, it's definitely my type of show. Yeah. I'm finishing up a book that I didn't quite enjoy, so I don't want to badmouth it on the podcast.

Okay, do you have anything else that you'd like to recommend? Jesus. I literally I just finished it today and I was like, well, that wasn't very good. So have you watched what I don't. Is it a movie? Is it a show? I don't know. But it's a book you mentioned that's been turned into movie slash show.

I think movie red, white and royal blue. Oh, I'm not watching. I haven't watched. I love that book. I know you love the book. I believe it's a movie. It's a movie. Red, White, and Royal Blue. Oh, I've not watched that. You haven't watched it yet. I love that book. I know you loved the book. I believe it's a movie now. It's a movie. Okay, great.

All right. So maybe check that out. Kristen liked the book. Maybe. Hasn't seen the movie though. Settle for the book. Are you so offended by that? Yes. Because books are superior

to movies and shows? No, no, not necessarily. You know, the heart wants what it wants. Oh, my gosh. Droopy Tooties asks. Wait, Droopy. Droopy Tooties. Okay.

Asks follow up question. What would you do if you dropped your entire purse into a porta potty? License, house keys, car keys, phone, credit cards, everything. You got to fish the purse out. But that's easier because you could you got a strappy of some kind. You could fish out. You still got to touch it when it's done. Maybe you pull it out. You put it in some kind of garbage bag. You take it home. You glove up. You get the purse is dead. Like that thing's dead to me. I'm sorry.

Goodbye. There's no coming back from that. But I think I could get the necessary items out of it that I would need to. Yeah, I agree. That's a sad situation because I feel like if you're at a place with a porta potty, you've got to have your car keys. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to have to leave.

So it's rough. You got to fish that thing out. You don I mean, you... Yeah, you're going to have to leave, so... Yeah, you got to... It's rough. You got to fish that thing out. You don't have a choice. Oh, God. And then just cut your arm off. Yeah. Instead of amputate.

I know I would. Well, I think I'm imagining getting, like, a broom. Surely there's a broom nearby. You're ridiculous. You are in a fantasy land where there's a broom nearby, there's a garbage bag. Well, it's not in the port-a-potty. This is what I do, okay?

David's nearby, obviously. Okay. Okay? So, first of all, I'm making him do it. That's the real story. Okay. But now I'm hunting down. He's standing watch at the port-a-potty, so nobody goes in and does anything on top of the purse that I've dropped, right?

And I'm hunting down. Actually, this is a lie, too. I've sent David on this mission. Hold on. I'm standing. Hold on. I'm setting up new rules. You're alone.

You're alone. I'm not alone. You're absolutely alone. Fuck, I'm alone. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I'm alone.

This is what I'm doing. I got it. I just got it. Okay. Okay. I'm alone. I've dropped my purse in the porta potty. I'm freaking the fuck out. Sure. I just got it. Okay. Okay. I'm alone. I've dropped my purse in the porta potty. I'm freaking the fuck out. I am taking the toilet paper. I am wrapping my hand mummy style. Sure.

Up to my fucking shoulder. All right. As thick as it goes until I run out of toilet. I'm putting the whole roll on there. And the good thing is the toilet paper in those porta potties is really nice and thick. Yeah. Nice and cushy. Yeah. Absolutely. Comfort really. No, it's really like a streamer. And then as fast as I can, I'm reaching down there. Oh, God, I'm throwing up while I'm doing it. Yeah, yeah, of course. I'm obviously, I'm puking the whole time. Into the purse as you grab it.

And I grab it, and then I just, I flip it open, I get out the keys, the phone, the credit cards, and then I'm out of there. And then I burn my arm off. Very good. What are you doing? I mean, that sounds like the only way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And you never speak of it to your soul.

Never. I don't tell anyone. David's like, didn't you have a purse when you left tonight? I hated that purse. I got rid of it. Stunk like shit. I don't want to ever talk about this again. That's what I say. Please don't ask me about that.

Everyone, I have to pause and tell another story. Yes, you do. It's so fucking cute. Okay, my nephew Henry, he's four. We haven't quite mastered, you know, not peeing in the bed. Yeah. Yeah. Some of us don't our entire lives.

That's right. Anyhow, my dad was over there one morning to watch him. So he gets there. Kyle is getting ready for work. Henry wants to show my dad some new toy he's got. So he brings my dad back into his room. And my dad noticed that the sheets had been stripped from Henry's bed. And so my dad asked quite rudely,

Henry, did you have an accident in the night? And Henry looks over at the bed, looks back at my dad and says, please don't ask me about that. I love that! Yes! I love that he has his own little boundaries at four years old! Yeah, hell yeah. I'm not fucking talking about that. Yes. I love that he has his own little boundaries at four years old. Yeah.

Hell yeah. I'm not fucking talking about that. Mind your fucking business. That's what Henry said to DP. Yeah. That's a private moment. I've already been scolded. Those sheets are being handled by the washing machine right now.

That's right. I shan't discuss it further. Ooh, Game Show Aficionado wants to know, Kristen and Brandy, when you were talking about the As Seen on TV products, it made me think of this from the 90s. I had one. Did you? It's the Topsy Tail. Do you remember the Topsy Tail? I remember it.

I was never once tempted by that thing. Let me tell you something. What? I have these at the salon. You do? They're amazing for updos. Shut up. No, I have an assortment of them in different sizes because they allow you to weave hair through when you're doing an updo.

Wow. Yes. It's an amazing tool. All right. Endorsed by Brandy. That's right. Mine are not Topsy Tail branded. Oh.

You went cheap, did you? I did. I did. I bought like a 10 pack on Amazon. Toopsy Tail. Brandy also has a lot of bump-its in her salon. I don't.

I don't have any bump-its. That's a modern day salon. Everyone gets a bump-it. Ooh. Okay. Pacheto chips. That's a modern day salon. Everyone gets a bump it. Oh, OK. Pacheto chips, which I love that name, says fair season is just around the corner. Was there one you visited religiously? I've never been to a fair.

Have you ever been to a fair? Like a state fair, county fair. County fair, county fair. Doesn't sound like it's for me. Yeah, I don't think it's for me either. Sounds very hot. Exactly. Sounds like the rides are hastily thrown together. So dangerous.

Yeah. Oh, I wonder if there's a lawsuit about that case. There was a case a few years ago where a little girl got her hair sucked into one of those carnival rides and it ripped her scalp off. Yeah. Oh, off. Yeah. Oh, God. Yes. Just recently, there was one. It was like one of those like fucking octopus things.

Yeah. You know, spinny, spinny, spinny. One of the cars just detached and went flying. Yeah. Yeah, I'm never getting on one of those fucking fair rides. No, thank you. No, I'm not interested in a fair. Thanks for asking.

I would go for the food. I was going to say. But Brandy. But wait. They've got Twix bars that they've deep fried. See, that's not exciting to me at all. I have no interest in a deep fried Oreo. I don't know.

No interest? That does not sound remotely good to me. Deep fried Twinkie does not sound good to me. You wouldn't even try it. No. But you know what? One of them big lemonades with the big lemonade chunks or lemon chunks in it. I'd fucking buy one of those in a second.

That sounds delicious. You are ridiculous. A funnel cake. I'd get a funnel cake. Okay. All right. I'll allow that. Yeah.

Big old lemonade and a funnel cake. Absolutely. Okay. I'm just fuck off with your deep fried Oreo though. All right. I'll allow that. Yeah. Big ol' lemonade and a funnel cake? Absolutely. Okay. I'm just... Fuck off with your deep-fried Oreo, though. I will! My deep-fried Oreo and I are gonna have a wonderful time together. We're gonna go sailing through the air on the octopus ride. What is it? The Minnesota

State Fair that has the bucket of cookies? We've talked about this before. I don't know if it's Michigan or Minnesota. One of the states has a bucket of cookies. It could be Montana. Yeah, it's not Montana. It's not Maine. Massachusetts. Nope, none of those. It's Michigan. I think I know if it's Michigan or Minnesota. One of the states has a bucket of cookies. It could be Montana. It's not Montana. It's not Maine. Massachusetts. Nope. None of those. It's Michigan. I think I've run out of M states. Missouri! What if I say you're Mississippi! It's none of those.

No. No, no, no, no. I was just having fun with states. Okay, great. Aren't we all? I just. I take a bucket of fucking hot chocolate chip cookies in a second. I just think it's lame that like you want to do the lemonade, which you could make at home. The bucket of chocolate chip cookies. You could make it at home.

But a deep fried Oreo. My thing about. Exotic as hell. No, that sounds disgusting exotic oh what's this i don't want that why not it does not sound good to me do you like oreos yes do you like fried shit yes put them together i don't want i know what would happen if we went to a fair together. Here's the other thing that I would do at a fair. What? Carnival games.

Oh, yeah, of course you would. I'd love that. You'd lose all your money. I would. That's why I can't go to the fair. Yeah. I'd spend all my money, blow out my shoulder trying to win you that teddy bear. And I'd be like, Brandy, I am a 37-year-old woman.

I don't want a teddy bear. And then I'm like, but you like it, you love it, you want some more of it. Oh, and then I have to say. I'm just quoting Tim McGraw. Yeah, I know. I know exactly what you're doing. I am with you, baby. You know what?

Actually, I would like you to win me one of those teddy bears because I always feel like the hottest girls are the ones who are walking around with the big teddy bears at the amusement park. Yeah, okay. Let me tell you. It's because you're so hot that someone had to win it for you. Okay. I was the lucky recipient of one of the giant stuffed animals. Okay. One time.

What happened? When I was, I don't know, how old was I? 14, probably. All right. We went to cedar point and my dad won me a giant monkey like as tall as I am right it had velcro on the hands you know so you could stick them together and loop around stuff yeah I totally get it let me tell you how not fun it is to carry that fucking thing around the amusement park the whole rest of the day. Yeah, especially if you're dad.

I loved the monkey, though. It was cool. Of course, but like when I'm talking about. Yeah, you want a hot guy to win you the monkey. Yes. All right. Not to say your dad's not very attractive. My dad is an attractive man.

It's true. But yeah, it's not the same. My dad is an attractive man. It's true. But yeah, it's not the same. Let's stop this conversation before it gets weird. Weird? I think it's past that already. No, no.

It's almost there. We know exactly where to stop, don't we? We sure do. New Three Day Nut Fest wants to know what our zodiac signs are. I am a Gemini. And you are a Scorpio? Yeah. Okay.

What is that? You're going to sting me? Yeah, of course I am, naturally. Are you going to, because I'm the frog? You're going to carry me across the... Huh? The scorpion and the frog? I'm going to carry you across the pond and then you're going to sting me and then we both die?

Oh, I guess I'm not— You don't know that fable? No, I'm so sorry. The scorpion asked the frog to take the frog across the river or take the scorpion across the river. And the frog's like, no, if I do that, you'll sting me. And the scorpion's like, I won't sting you because if I sting you, we both die. And the frog's like, okay, fine. I'll take you across.

The frog, scorpion gets on the frog back. The scorpion or the frog starts across the water halfway across. Scorpion stings the frog. And the frog's like, why'd you do that? Now we both die. And the scorpion goes, it's just my nature. You know, there's another fable. The scorpion and the frog have a boxing match.

And the scorpion disrobes the frog? Nope, just lifts the frog's shirt just a little bit. And the frog passes out cold. It's a more modern spin on it. That is a more modern telling. Where's T-shirt sometimes asks, do you keep a list of cases you want to cover someday? I was just re-listening to an old episode where you referenced ongoing cases at that time that you wanted to eventually cover. Kristen's was the college admissions scandal and Brandy's was a local case that took forever

to get to trial. Just curious if you keep a list. I do. I do, too. Do you have a list? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

If I see something interesting, I'll jot it down. I have links saved in case I, you know, can't find that article again. Yeah. I remember when I created the list thinking, my gosh, here I sit, a genius. Because I was like, now I'll never have that moment where I'm like, I don't know what case to cover. Well, no, turns out you can have a list and still be like, no. Not going to do any of those. But yes, yes, I do have a list.

Yeah, same. Should we move on to Supreme Court induction? Yeah, absolutely. Let's do it. But please explain. All you have to do to get inducted into the Supreme Court. I am so sorry. I left you hanging.

I mean, that was ridiculous. Oh, God. I'm you hanging. I mean, that was ridiculous. Terrible. Oh, God. I'm so embarrassed. Join our Patreon at the $7 level or higher, and then we will induct you. And currently, we are doing your names and your foist. Your foist. Celebrity quashes. Kate Van Brunt.

Pierce Brosnan. Amy Hahn I'm sorry I got it stuck Han I bet it's Han Amy Han Or Han I bet that's not how you pronounce it Patrick

Swayze Tyler Creek Hilary Duff and Missy Perr-der-rum the ice bath scene Made me realize I was a lesbian Crazy. Tyler Creek. Hilary Duff and Missy Perderum. The ice bath scene made me realize I was a lesbian. The ice bath scene in what? I mean, clearly it was a big moment for Tyler, not a big moment for the rest of us. No.

I'm going to have to do some Googling. Yeah, seek this out. Shannon F. Jay Z. Secrets out. I'm actually Becky with a good hair. Olivia Craig. Matthew Lillard.

Fern Whiting. Kyle Schmid. Eileen Cunha. Theo James. Maddie Calhoun. Hillary Duff. Brittany R. Matthew Lillard again.

My goodness. Ooh, he's hot. Okay. Kit Kat. Mulder. Mrs. Walsh. Okay. Kit Kat. Mulder. Mrs. Walsh. Ben Affleck. Katie Robacki.

River Phoenix. Emma Grace. Daniel Radcliffe. Katerina. Keanu Reeves. She said you have to do the tongue R roll. Yeah, I wasn't questioning. Okay, I'm just for everybody out there.

It's in the notes. Should I? Roll your tongue when you say Keanu Reeves? Brianna. Eminem. No tongue roll? No. I don't even know how I...

Mom's spaghetti. Lena Call. Lay from XO. Hip hop boy band. I was going to say, I don't know what those words are. No. Old. I think it's chips.

Chips. Lay's chips. Courtney. JTT. Aaron Shoemaker. Matthew McConaughey. Kelsey Miller. Oh, from Bucktown.

Justin Timberlake. Mandy Shinley. Luke Perry. Brittany Combs. Aaron Carter. Delake. Mandy Shinley. Luke Perry. Brittany Combs. Aaron Carter. Deanna Weber. Jason Bateman. Welcome to the Supreme Court!

Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Kristen's one of those waving, wacky arm, inflatable tube men right now. You're so professional. I was doing that for a long time, really bringing my A game. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen.

Head on over to Apple Podcasts, leave us a five-star rating and review, and then be sure to join us next week. When I'll be an expert on a whole new topic so you know the episode will be a banger. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Killer Motive, the Sisters Who Kill podcast, Oxygen.com, NBC12 News, News 6 Richmond, the Roanoke Times, and the Capitol News. For a full list of our sources,

visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.