Let's Go To Court! - 271: 16th Street Baptist Church Bombing

Episode Date: October 4, 2023

September 15, 1963, should have been a typical Sunday at the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church in Birmingham, Alabama. In the church basement, children busily prepared for youth Sunday. Five little girls, ranging in age from 11 to 14, were in the women’s bathroom, changing into choir robes and fixing their hair when an explosion rocked the church. Glass shattered. The church’s rear wall crumbled. The girls flew through the air. Upstairs, the adults panicked. They ran for their children. Four little girls died that day. There wasn’t much of a question as to who’d done this. For years, the KKK had bombed Black churches and Black people’s homes. They’d done so with little to no punishment from authorities. But surely they wouldn’t get away with killing children in church. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Kristin read a bunch of articles, then spat them back out in her very limited vocabulary. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Birmingham Church Bombing: Bombingham,” by Mark Gado for Crime Library “Trial of bombing suspect begins,” by Jay Reeves for the Associated Press “Alabamian guilty in ‘63 church blast that killed 4 girls,” by B. Drummond Ayres Jr. for the New York Times “Chambliss guilty,” Associated Press “Birmingham bomber Bobby Frank Cherry dies in prison at 74,” by Yvonne Shinhoster Lamb for the Washington Post “Birmingham bomb case goes to jury,” by Howell Raines for the St Petersburg Times “Ghosts of Alabama: The prosecution of Bobby Frank Cherry for the bombing of the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church,” by Donald Q. Cochran for the Michigan Journal of Race and Law “60 years ago, Alabama church bombing killed 4 girls and catalyzed a movement,” by DeNeen L. Brown for the Washington Post “Congress honors victims of infamous Alabama church bombing,” by Debbie Elliott for NPR “50 years after the bombing, Birmingham still subtly divided,” by Debbie Elliott for NPR “Alabama Gov. apologizes to surviving ‘5th girl’ of 1963 KKK bombing,” by Vanessa Romo for NPR “16th Street Baptist Church bombing,” National Park Service “16th Street Baptist Church bombing,” entry on Wikipedia YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 51+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. And it's going to be terrible. Oh boy.

I hate myself for this. Okay, great. I'm sorry to everyone. I don't know what. Man, tell me if this sounds kind of familiar. About a week out from when you're going to do a case, you're like, well, this is going to just be fascinating. This is really interesting. I should look into this.

And then. Yeah, you'll look into it. The Monday. No, the funny thing was i was looking into it and you know all right all right monday hits oh god tuesday this morning and here i am to tell us about a church bombing great it's terrible okay it's not like those other fun church church bombings yeah it's not one of those lighthearted church bombings. No, no, unfortunately it's not.

Like a bombing of... Hey, hey, did you want to hear some fun stories about super racist people? Great. Don't worry, I got it all here. It's all here for you. Okay, great, thank you. Chock full of racism. Awesome.

Yeah, yeah, we're all going to have good laughs. Just a Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We're all going to have good laughs. Just a great time in this episode. Good laughs. Good times. And good friends. Great. Wait.

Good times and great oldies. What was that? Is that? I'm so glad at the top of the show we're trying to remember the catchphrase for a radio station that was only in Kansas City. When we were children. And it was Good Times and Great Oldies. Thank you very much.

I'm not going to leave you hanging, but I am going to make fun of you. Okay, great. Brandy, I'm in the mood for you to stall a bit before I talk about this bombing. What would you like me to talk about? Like literally anything as long as it's not a bombing. Okay.

I'll tell the people what I purchased this week. What'd you purchase this week? Well, it's exciting and also makes me sad. Big girl bed for my sweet, precious baby angel, London. Yeah. She's graduating to a big girl bed this weekend. Everybody mark your calendars. Yeah, everybody write it down. I'm totally fine with it.

I'm very excited for it, and I'm okay with it, and it's great. She's grown up. I don't think you had to get a three-year-old a water bed, though. I did not get her a water bed. No, it's interesting because I got her a trundle bed, but then that sparked a very dark conversation about allowing kids to spend the night at other people's houses. So that David and I had, it's like, is that a thing that people still do? Do people send their kids to spend the night at other people's houses? I feel like people don't.

I think they don't either. But so many of our best friends. I know, are having sleepovers. Exactly. So what we decided is that she could have somebody spend the night at our house. We're totally cool with that. Yeah. Yeah.

She's not going elsewhere. So the trundle bed is fine. Yes. Exactly. And you really had to spring for the trundle water bed. I did not get a water bed. Both of them watery. No, it's funny.

Norm asked me what mattress I got her, and I was like, a cheap one off the internet because she's three and doesn't have joint problems. My favorite is when Norm is trying to be supportive and interested when you tell him something about children. Yes. He has no interest in children. Exactly, yes. And so, yeah, his question was, what type of mattress? What type of mattress did you go with? Did you get a purple?

Did you get a Casper? And I was like, no. I bought a nothing brand off of Amazon. So what's the pillow situation? You've got to get a good pillow. All right. Now somehow it feels a little creepy, honestly. Okay, great.

All right. Are we ready for this terrible story? Yeah, I think we're ready. Okay. First of all, you're making a face like I'm disappointing you. I'm ready. I've already disappointed myself. Okay.

Do you know anything about this story? No, I don't know anything about it. I would like to keep it that way. Thank you, everyone. Podcast adjourned. I would like to keep it that way. Thank you, everyone. Podcast insurance. Well, wouldn't that be great?

Oh, I do have something I have to tell the people real fast. What is it? Okay, I talked about in the most recent episode, the kidnapping of George Weyerhaeuser, about how weird I thought it was that he was walking home for lunch. My mom informed me today that when she was a little kid, like in the 1970s, she would have been in elementary school. She lived in Wisconsin and they walked home for lunch. She was hit by a car walking home for lunch. That is no laughing matter, Brandi. She was fine. Oh, yeah.

Bounced right back. She was hit by a car twice at the same intersection. Different cars. Christian, why are you laughing? Because I thought of something terrible to say. Like, when the second one hits you, are you asking for it? These are the questions we have to ask children who are walking home. Yes, who are walking home by themselves for lunch.

What a weird time. It's so weird. Okay. Okay, anyway, tell us about this bombing. Great. All right, here we go. Get ready to laugh. We've got, no.

There's no laughs to be had here. No, there will be zero laughs. Okay. Huge shout out to the Crime Library. Oh! to the crime library. Oh! Mark Gatto wrote an amazing article,

very thorough, called The Birmingham Church Bombing, colon, Bombingham. Oh. Mm. And you have to say,

colon, you cannot just pause. You just pause. No. No. No. You just pause. Mark said,

don't you fucking dare. Okay. Okay. Uh-huh. Also, great reporting in the New York Times and NPR. Okay. And here we go. Picture it.

What? I feel like my microphone has moved. Oh, my gosh. You are so weird. I have the limpest microphone this side of the Mississippi. You know, if you dress a little sexy. My shirt literally says pound town on it today did you hear how hard i popped that p just now you're always popping

your p's so hard but here's the thing that microphone wants a little mystery okay you got to really walk the line okay and if you want tips on that just look over here okay okay okay all right you taking notes yeah norm asked you to unbutton another button on that, just look over here. Okay? Okay. Okay. All right. You taking notes? Yeah. Norm asked you to unbutton another button on that dress. Your tits would be out if you unbutton another button. I did unbutton another button. You did? Where was I?

You were right there. And I think that any kind of nudity freaks you out so much that it's like you just don't even, it doesn't even register. I didn't even, I heard him ask and I assumed that you like made a joke and like we just moved on. I didn't know you actually did it. I, well, it's funny. I did make a joke and I opened my dress kind of as a joke, but in a sense it was very real because my tits

wore out. I'm so glad I didn't notice. How dare you? These puppies are fabulous. They are wonderful. They get worse every day. You might as well see are fabulous. They are wonderful. They get worse every day. You might as well see them now. Oh, my gosh.

Anyhow. All right. Picture it. Birmingham, Alabama. Or should I say Bombingham, Alabama? I kind of ruined it by... Anyway, that's what people called Birmingham back in the 1960s. At the time, Birmingham was the largest city in Alabama.

It was home to about 350,000 people. And it was racially diverse, which I think we can all agree is a real problem. Okay. Jeez. The city was extremely segregated, even by old timey standards. They were like, whoa, this is a lot. And if anyone wanted to challenge the racist status quo, they were quickly punished. Black folks in Birmingham were subjected to frequent acts of terrorism.

Gosh, this is already so fun, isn't it? And those acts of terrorism often involved bombs. From 1948 to 1957, Birmingham was home to 48 unsolved bombings. Oh, my gosh. Isn't that ridiculous? Yes. In one month in 1957, four black churches were bombed. And so were seven homes.

Oh, my gosh. A lot of the bombings took place in a neighborhood where a lot of black families lived. And that neighborhood got bombed so often that people began calling it Dynamite Hill. Oh, wow. In one article, they just called it Dynamite Hill. That's like the name of this neighborhood. Maybe it stuck. Who knows?

Some black folks did try to get justice. For example, Fred Shuttlesworth, who was a reverend and a civil rights leader, had his house bombed three times. And finally, on Christmas Day of 1958, terrorists completely destroyed his home with a bomb. So he went to the police. He told the local police chief that his home had been blown to pieces. And the police chief accused Reverend Shuttlesworth of bombing his own home on Christmas Day for attention. Sure. Yeah. The police chief asked the reverend to take a lie detector test

so that they could rule him out as a suspect. Okay, great. Yeah. That's great. Anytime I need a little attention, I just bomb my house. Yeah. Usually on Christmas Day. Yeah.

That's the way to do it. That had to have been infuriating, but probably not surprising. Birmingham police didn't give a shit about serving and protecting black people. The city was home to a very active chapter of the KKK. And the KKK had the full protection of the Birmingham police. Great. As one article put it, Klansmen often rode with police when they were on patrol.

Holy shit. Another article mentioned that the local Klan often held their meetings at the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge. All of which makes me think that if we were to draw a Venn diagram of Klansmen and policemen, it might just be one big circle. I mean, at what point? That's the Rage Against the Machine song.

What is? The same people who fight forces are the same people who burn crosses. That's not the actual lyric. Hold on. Rage Against the Machine. Do they mention Venn diagrams? The lyric is killing in the name.

Some of those that work forces are the same that burn crosses. Yeah. Yeah. It was interesting to me that these articles, I mean, they were really careful about like the relationship was real close. Well, no, I'm sorry if they're just in the car. Yeah. Yeah. It's more like some Klansmen aren't police officers. Yes, exactly. So this was a very scary environment for black people and for anyone who wasn't a sack of shit, you know.

Yeah. And so then 1963 rolled around and things got worse. In his inaugural address, newly elected Alabama governor George Wallace famously said that he believed in segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever. Yeah. He said some other things in that inauguration that didn't get, like, as much traction. Oh, yeah? Dance like no one's watching.

Yeah. I was thinking, what if I could just attribute everything? If you want the rainbow, you gotta sit through a little rain. Don't talk to me before I've had my coffee. Did he do like a live, laugh, love too? Yes. That's the origin of live, laugh, love. Live, laugh, love separately.

Oh boy. Well, you gotta make it racist too, Brandy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that was a very fun way of inspiring your local terrorists. Great. It's important to inspire locally, Brandy. Yeah.

Okay. There was obviously not a consensus among black folks in Birmingham about how to respond to all of this hate. You know, some people were like, okay, it's safest to just not rock the boat. Other people thought, okay, let's let this play out in the courts. It'll be slower, but hopefully safer. And other people felt like it's time to take action. People like Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth

wanted to, quote, kill segregation or be killed by it. Wow. Yeah. He sounds kick-ass. I really like him. I'm just going to say, like, his name is cool. You just love his name.

I do. Shuttlesworth? Fuck yeah, I like it. Pretty good, huh? So he and several other leaders formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, So he and several other leaders formed the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, which was a nonviolent civil rights organization, and they began making waves. They created Project C. Oh, yeah.

What do you think C stood for, Brandy? I don't know. Confrontation! Oh. The goal of Project C was to desegregate Birmingham, or desegregate, whatever that was supposed to be, through big, nonviolent demonstrations. But so much work went into the effort to desegregate the city. They needed people. They needed leadership.

They needed just a place to meet. And that's where the 16th Street Baptist Church came in. It had been the city's first black church. They'd started in the 1870s. And by the 1960s, it was the largest black church in Birmingham. It was fucking cool. I think we've been there together. Yeah, I think so.

We have a picture of all of us outside this church. Yes. So we have a picture of all of us outside this church. Yes. Anyway, that was a Sheree Ray and Darrell stop on the way to Destin, Florida. And this wasn't just a church. It was centrally located and it was where people got together for meetings just to socialize. It was kind of like the social hub. It was also an eye-catching church. I don't know if you remember what this place looks like.

But, okay, brief history lesson that really probably shouldn't be in this script, but I think it's interesting. Okay. So the original building of this church was very beautiful. But the city had been like, oh, it needs to be condemned. We're going to demolish it. So they did that in 1908. And in response, the congregation hired a black architect and a black contractor, and they built this show-stopping church. It is described online as Romanesque and Byzantine.

Oh. So. Yeah. I'm thinking about the Roman Empire. I'll describe it to you now. Big, wide staircase. Romanesque. Uh-huh. And kind of domey, guys. Yeah.

And I think that's the Byzantine part. Yeah, sure. And we can't be more clear than that. All right? Yeah. Wait, can I look it up? Yeah, of course. 16th Street Baptist Church.

I didn't even, like, I had to put in, like, three letters in it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm in like three letters in it. Oh, yeah. Well, do you care to describe it? I mean, I know I did a great job. You did a great job. What more can I say? Yeah. Dough me things. Oh, the Byzantine-ness of it all. Yeah. Oh, OK. I'm glad we did that. Some of the church's leadership was a little nervous for the church to join in the campaign to desegregate the city. But they eventually decided that this needed to happen.

And things really kicked off in the spring of 1963 when Martin Luther King Jr. came to town. Everyone, I'm kind of doing a little stride. Is that how he came into town? Everyone I'm kind of doing a little stride. Doing like a dance. Is that how he came into town? Here's how Fred – so Fred invited him. Okay. And kind of shamed him.

He said something to the effect of history won't look kindly on people who only give flowery speeches. Oh, shit. I know. So in addition to having like a cool-ass last name, he was also kind of a badass. Yeah. Also, I got the vibe. This is just from the Wikipedia page, so I'm no expert. But I got the vibe that he was like, fine, I'll do the nonviolence thing, but I won't like it.

Yeah. Which I respect that. Absolutely. Absolutely. So together, civil rights leaders organized these major protests and oftentimes people would meet up at the church as kind of a starting point for the protests. And the protests worked. And King Jr. was a self-promoter and a liar. Birmingham didn't have any problems. That Martin Luther King guy was full of shit. Okay. Am I right?

No! Can you imagine? There's literally separate everything. You're like, it's fine. Yeah. We all like it this way. Yeah, everybody wants it this way. It's best for everybody. Mm're like, it's fine. Yeah. We all like it this way. Yeah, everybody wants it this way. Uh-huh.

It's best for everybody. Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. Later that same evening, someone bombed Martin Luther King Jr.'s brother's house. Wow. And they also bombed the Gaston Motel, where Martin Luther King Jr. sometimes stayed. Gaston? I mean, it's G-A-S-T-O-N.

Gaston? I don't... No one... Kristen's first celebrity crush was Gaston. Hot as fuck. Problematic? Yes. Absolutely. But beefy?

Yeah, you always liked those big burly dudes. That's right. That's right. Yeah, which makes sense that you married Norm. He's the biggest man in this whole house. He is the biggest man in this whole house. So there was this environment where people in power were saying hateful shit and then their supporters were carrying out violent acts and oopsies no one

was ever held accountable for any of it cool yeah cool cool cool eventually things got so bad that president jfk sent in federal troops hoping to calm things down. And, you know, that worked for, like, 12 seconds. Yeah. But the fight was far from over. So on May 2, 1963, children ranging in age from 8 to 18 met at the 16th Street Baptist Church, and they marched downtown to talk to the mayor about segregation. It was called the Children's Crusade.

And it was nonviolent until the police got involved. Police used attack dogs and fire hoses against children. They beat children with clubs. The one silver lining was that there was footage of the police brutality. Oh, wow. Okay. It made the news. People everywhere saw white police officers turning fire hoses on unarmed citizens. And within days of that protest, the city of Birmingham finally agreed to some changes. So suck on that.

Okay. They desegregated lunch counters and drinking fountains and fitting rooms and restrooms. And they let the protesters out of jail. And they agreed that black people could be clerks and salesmen. This was a huge victory. But uh-oh. It made some folks mad. But uh-oh.

It made some folks mad. So then came Sunday, September 15th, 1963. People at the 16th tree... Oh my God. It's hard to say. It really is. I've only been reading it. Yeah. I had no idea I was going to have these troubles.

Because you have to do a... Back to back. Yeah. It's hard. That's why I don't say thirst trap ever. It's too much. People at the 16th Street Baptist Church were pretty excited. It was Youth Sunday.

That was always my favorite Sunday. Which meant that the youth, I said youth people of the church. Young people. Young people of the church is a more human way to say it. That is a more human way. Did you have AI write you this script? At a certain point I was like, this is too depressing. I'm just gonna let go and let AI, as they say. So the young people of the church would get their chance to shine. say. So the young people of the church would get their chance to shine. Carol Robertson was a little nervous. She was 14 and she had some stage fright about the fact that she was going to be singing

in front of the whole congregation. But, you know, the night before her mom got her her very first pair of high heels. Oh, my gosh. They were black and shiny. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. That kind of summed up how a lot of kids were feeling that day. Everyone was looking their best and getting ready to play a role in Sunday service. But you know, first they had to prepare. So the youth were all gathered in the church basement and the adults were all upstairs. Everything was so normal. Sarah Collins Rudolph was 12 years old and she remembers being in the ladies' lounge or the women's restroom in the church basement. She was there with four other girls, including her

14-year-old sister, Addie Mae. The girls were all fixing their hair in the mirror, and that's when the church got a phone call. 15-year-old Carolyn McKinstry was the one who picked up the phone, and she heard the voice of a man. He said, three minutes, and hung up. So that was strange. Meanwhile, in the women's restroom, Sarah watched as her sister Addie Mae helped 11-year-old Denise McNair tie the sash on her dress. Addie was actually reaching out to tie the sash when there was a deafening explosion.

Glass exploded everywhere. Girls flew through the air like dolls. One of the church walls, which had been more than two feet thick, caved in on the children. Oh my gosh. The explosion had been so powerful that windows on nearby buildings shattered and cars flipped over.

Wow. In the chaos, Sarah screamed for her sister, Addie, Addie, Addie, but Addie never responded. Upstairs, the adults flew into action. They ran for their kids, but when they got to the steps of the church basement, they saw that the steps had been completely blown away. Children came crawling out of the rubble. I saw something like 80 kids were in this basement. They lay bleeding in the streets.

Parents searched for their children. People pulled little kids out of the rubble. And above it all, someone yelled, they bombed our children. It didn't take long to discover the first dead child. It was 11-year-old Denise McNair. Once they found Denise, they found three other dead little girls, 14-year-old Addie Mae Collins, 14-year-old Cynthia Wesley, and 14-year-old Carol Roberts. Cynthia's body was so damaged that she could only be identified by her shoes and a ring.

Oh, my gosh. More than 20 people were injured in the bombing. Sarah Collins was pulled out of the rubble by a church deacon. She had 21 pieces of glass stuck in her face. Oh, my gosh. The congregation couldn't believe it. Yeah. This was the lowest of low.

Their children had been bombed at church. Soon police arrived on the scene and that became a mess because no one trusted the police. There was so much rage and anger and grief. Eventually, Reverend John Cross got a bullhorn. And even though he was injured and covered in blood, he tried to calm everybody down. He said, the police are doing everything they can. Please go home. And then he broke down in tears.

Oh, my gosh. From there, things got worse. From there, things got worse. Later that same day, a 16-year-old black boy named James Robinson was involved in some kind of like rock-throwing incident with some white teenagers. And the police showed up. And so James ran. And a white police officer shot him in the back. Oh, my gosh.

Yep. I'm sorry, did he die? Yeah. Is that what you, I was reacting when you said it. Oh, my gosh. A couple hours later, a 13-year-old black boy named Virgil Ware was riding on the handlebars of his brother's bike, and a moped decorated with a Confederate flag came at them from the opposite direction.

And out of nowhere, the white 16-year-old boy who was riding the moped pulled out a gun. He shot Virgil twice in the chest and then rode off. He was later convicted of second-degree manslaughter. He spent seven months in jail. Wow. It was all— Seven months, huh? Yeah.

Seven whole months? Yeah. It says a lot that a 16-year-old feels like they should do that and can do that and know that they're going to get away with it. So it was all horrible. And in the immediate aftermath of the bombing, Martin Luther King Jr. sent a telegram to Governor George Wallace. It read, in part,

The blood of our little children is on your hands. Fuck you. Yeah. He didn't say that part, but he thought it. We were all thinking it. Just a few days later, he delivered the eulogy at a funeral for the little girls. Why did I say eulogy at a funeral?

That goes without saying. God damn it. I think it just makes it really clear yeah just in case anyone was wondering yeah where you give eulogies at well I think we've all learned a lot today we sure have you're welcome let's end this now right um more than 8,000 people attended that service wow yeah here's a fun fact for you. So 8,000 people attended. Mm-hmm. No city officials.

Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. So here's part of what he said to the crowd that day. said to the crowd that day. These children, unoffending, innocent, and beautiful, were the victims of one of the most vicious and tragic crimes ever perpetrated against humanity. And yet they died nobly. They are the martyred heroines of a holy crusade for freedom and human dignity. And so this afternoon, in a real sense, they have something to say to each of us in their death.

so this afternoon, in a real sense, they have something to say to each of us in their death. They have something to say to every minister of the gospel who has remained silent behind the safe security of stained glass windows. They have something to say to every politician who has fed his constituents with the stale bread of hatred and the spoiled meat of racism. They have something to say to a federal government that has compromised with the undemocratic practices of Southern Dixiecrats and the blatant hypocrisy of right-wing Northern Republicans. They have something to say to every Negro who has passively accepted the evil system of segregation and who has stood on the sidelines in a mighty struggle for justice. They say to each of us, black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them,

but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers. Their death says to us that we must work passionately and unrelentingly for the realization of the American dream. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, that is the thing, is that you do have to look at the system that created the people who do these things. Yeah. Yeah. I do think it's worth mentioning.

So Carol Robertson's family had a separate service. I read very briefly somewhere that her family did not appreciate some of the remarks about how this was brought on by black people being complacent, which I get that that'd be tough. But the murders of these four little girls really captured people's attention. The day after the bombing, a white lawyer named Chuck Morgan was supposed to address a club. I assume like a rotary club or something. And so, you know, he had his prepared speech. But then this bombing happened. And he was like, you know what? And he just kind of rips up the prepared speech.

And he said, who threw the bomb? The answer should be, we all did it. It's every little individual who talks about the bleep and spreads the seeds of his hate to his neighbor and his son. Birmingham isn't a dying city. It is dead. Wow. That didn't go over very well. Mm-hmm.

Because most white folks didn't want to hear that their casual racism was in part to blame. Yeah, absolutely. And two weeks later, after that speech got printed in newspapers all over the country, Chuck and his wife Camille and their son packed up all their shit and fled Birmingham in the middle of the night. Wow. Wow. The one good thing was that this crime was so horrifying that it couldn't be ignored. Yeah. The FBI was almost immediately on the scene.

We know the mayor didn't call them. No kidding. Some other mayor. Work around there, I guess. You know, so they're there. They're trying to figure out who bombed this church. Yeah. They did find some interesting physical evidence.

They discovered pieces of a fishing bobber not far from where the bomb went off. They figured it could have been used as a timing device for the bomb. They figured it could have been used as a timing device for the bomb. But, you know, oops. The fishing bobber kind of vanished. Oh, did it? Didn't get taken into evidence? Oopsies.

These things, you know, they happen. They do happen. Brandy. Especially when you got members of the KKK on the police force. No, they're just good buddies. Just good buddies is all. Okay. Okay. A lot of FBI agents worked really hard on this case.

I mean, it didn't take a genius to guess that the KKK was behind the bombing. So they started talking to Klansmen. And they got a lot of them to become paid informants. Oh, wow. Were you expecting more loyalty? I guess I was. You thought the guys would go around with pillowcases over their heads. They won't show their faces.

No kidding. I thought you fellas would nut up and say, no, I'm not talking. Yeah, so it's this chaotic environment. And two months after the bombing, JFK was assassinated. And around that same time, Sarah Collins Rudolph was finally let out of the hospital. She'd suffered tremendous physical and emotional trauma. She'd lost an eye, but thankfully regained. I think it's pronounced regained. What?

I mean, it is now, but at the time it was regoined. Oh, okay. She regoined it in her left eye. Okay. Yeah. Please never correct me again. Survivors struggled to make sense of the bombing. Carolyn McKinistry, who'd been the one to answer the phone that day, later said, I really struggled to understand when our church was bombed what it was that we were supposed to do differently. If you're born brown, if you're born white, whatever you're born, if that's a problem for someone, what do you do about that? What do they expect you to do about that? Right.

Yes. Also, I'm sorry, we have to pause for a moment. What? And point out that her name is, I'm sorry, what's her first name? Carolyn. Carolyn McGinnistry. McGinnistry. And she works in the ministry. Yeah.

Isn't that cute? Yeah. She really had no choice. Not at all. Well, I mean, she did as a kid. I don't know if she went into ministry. Okay. But she should have.

Yeah. If not. Yeah. Carolyn, if you're listening. Yeah. Got to get a job at the church. That's right. Ministry.

McKinistry. Okay. Anyway. Jeff Drew, who was. An artist. Shut up. The ministry, McKinistry. Okay, anyway. Jeff Drew, who was... An artist. Shut up. Not a very talented one.

Oh, that's unfortunate. Yeah. But he felt like he had to go into it because of his last name. See, he knows the rules. He gets it. He was a classmate of a few of the girls who were killed. And later he said, I think that in the black community, the 16th Street bombing will always remain a testament of not to fully trust white folks. Our hearts became reserved. We had a new fear of white violence, because if you will stoop that low to kill children in church, then is there anything else that you couldn't do? There's no line they won't cross. That's exactly what that says. It took a few months, but the FBI became pretty sure they knew who'd committed this crime.

Thanks to a ton of information from informants and a ton of interviews, they'd identified Robert Chambliss, a.k.a. Dynamite Bob. That's his nickname? Dynamite Bob? Yeah, I assume that put him at the top of the list. I would assume so, yes! Also, Herman Frank Cash, Thomas Blanton. He's a banker. Okay.

I'm going to read you a few more names. I'm ready to hear some more theories. Thomas Blanton Jr. What's he do? You've got nothing. I can tell you've got nothing. He's a chef. He's really into blanching.

Not your best work. No. Okay. Here's the name that really gets me going. You ready? Yeah. Bobby Cherry. Oh, yeah.

See, I think that's a huge problem. Why is it a huge problem? Because it's an adorable name. It's a kidsy name. Yeah, absolutely. And he's responsible for this bombing. A fucking member of the KKK. Hey, we don't know anything yet in this.

Oh, Brandy, calm down. Maybe he's just a little. Just a good old boy member of the KKK. You know, just a social club. That's what they always say. They're like, well, in those days it was a social club where we terrified black people. Yeah.

No, that is unfortunate because I do like the name Bobby Cherry. Everyone likes the name Bobby Cherry. You know what Bobby Cherry would be? What? He'd be like a singer. Yeah. I don't really agree. Oh, I do.

He's singing jukebox music. Oh, okay. Yeah. I see you. Yeah. Honestly, I think you go to sign up for your little clan card. Uh-huh. And they're like, sorry, we can't accept you because your name is too cute.

First of all, your name ends in a Y. Yeah. So that's all ready. He's got a double Y. I know. First and last. Yes. Also, his last name is a fruit.

Okay. No, you can't commit a hate crime. No. Now send in Dynamite Bob. Yeah, Dynamite Bob makes sense. Absolutely. So they figured these were the guys who'd bombed the church. And maybe there was another person, but we're not talking about him.

Okay, why not? Because shut up. Okay. Because maybe he was an informant. Oh, sure. No, shut up, Brandy. Nope, we don't even want to. Is this like an immunity thing for telling all the info?

No, there's nothing there. Oh, boy. So don't even look it up. That man's name? Bob Bomb. So stupid. And yet you laughed so hard. Because it made sense.

These men were members of a splinter group of the local KKK. Evidently, the regular KKK wasn't KKK enough for them. And they created the Cahaba River... Ma'am, you aren't even saying words at this point. You're making sounds and then you looked at me like I was supposed to know what you'd said. What I'm trying to say is the

Cahaba River group, that's the name of their super scary KKK splinter group. I love a good splinter group. That's the name of their super scary KKK splinter group. I love a good splinter group. Sure. No, that's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah.

With the KKK wasn't... KKK-nough. I heard you. The first time. They weren't fucking scary enough. They had to do their own thing. No, they really felt like, hey. KKK's not doing enough these days.

We got to ramp it up. Stop. We got to ramp this up. Yeah. Oh, boy. So the FBI gathered a ton of information on these guys. But when it came time to, you know, actually arrest them, J. Edgar Hoover wouldn't allow it.

He kept saying they didn't have enough. And we know that we can trust J. Edgar Hoover because, you know, he was a champion of the civil rights movement, so. Yeah. No. Yeah, so it's not like he was a big racist dirtbag who was trying to just shove this under the rug. Okay, great. So years passed.

And nothing, no charges? Mm-mm. Mm-mm. And when I tell you the FBI had a ton of information, I'm talking about a file that was 8,000 pages long. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I don't even think that fits in one file. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I don't even think that fits in one file. I don't think so either.

I bet they had to use multiple folders for that. I agree. It's more of a filing cabinet. Might be multiple cabinets. Might be. So, you know, they had a ton of information, but they wouldn't share it with anyone because it was all confidential, private. You wouldn't understand. Okay.

That was super frustrating because if the FBI was going to do anything, they needed to act fast. They only had jurisdiction over this crime because of a civil rights statute that came out of the Reconstruction era. Mm-hmm. And it had a statute of limitations of five years. Oh, my. Fucking hate the statute of limitations of five years oh my fucking hate the statute of limitations yeah because that if it goes longer than five years that bombing then it didn't happen yeah

yeah great uh yeah so they let it expire. J. Edgar Hoover closed the case. Dun, dun, dun. But that wasn't good enough. Well, no, it's not fucking good enough. What do you mean? Hey, I'm not J. Edgar Hoover. And would you believe it? The people of Birmingham were just not happy about that.

What the hell? Okay, so what do they do? What are their choices now? Statute of limitations is up. Well, at the federal level, it's up. Okay, great. What happens at the state level? Tell me more.

Tell me more. He has a car. Okay. In 1970, a guy named William Baxley, who I sometimes call Bill, sometimes call him William. Okay, we'll take it. Was elected. Does he ever go by Billiam? No one ever has, but we recommend that they do.

He was elected Attorney General of Alabama. He was 28. Oh. I know, right? Little baby. Little baby hottie Attorney General. Was he hot? I assume. Isn't everyone hot at 28? Isn't that the law? He'd been in college when the 16th Street Baptist Church was bombed and it had deeply troubled him that four little girls were killed and no one had been

held accountable for it. So when he became attorney general, he told his staff that solving that bombing was his number one priority. Okay. He immediately got to work looking through all the state and local files because, you know, there had been a local investigation too. Does the FBI want to offer up their files? Oh, no. Okay. So glad you asked. Yeah.

No. No, thank you. Okay. No. And that's the end of the conversation then? For a while. Okay. So glad you asked. Yeah. No. No, thank you. Okay. No. And that's the end of the conversation then? For a while. Okay. Right now he's reading the local files.

Oh, I'm sorry. Why don't you give him a fucking minute? Okay. Sorry, Bill. Billiam, please. So he read through them. And wow, he was really struck by the fact that, first of all, there wasn't much there. And worst of all was that what was there showed that the local authorities had spent just a ton of time, in fact, almost all of their time, trying to prove that black people did this to themselves.

Oh, for fuck's sake. To gain sympathy for the civil rights movement what yeah fucking assholes holy shit i'm glad we wasted the entire investigation on that right yeah it was basically useless yeah so william be Baxley was like, OK, I obviously need the FBI files. Got Brandy breathing down my neck. Yeah. So he requested the FBI files and they were like, no, no. First of all, sir, we only talked to the mayor.

Yeah. He's like, I am the attorney general. Yeah, not the same. Yeah, not the same. The policy of the FBI at the time was that they didn't share any files without first getting the approval of the evil overlord J. Edgar Hoover. When he was just really willing to help because he just wanted this crime solved. Oh, so badly. William tried everything.

He wrote letters to Congress. He reached out to the U.S. Attorney General. Nothing worked. Wow. So he had to basically reinvestigate this crime that had already been extensively investigated. Yeah. And he has to do it like five years later, seven years later. Yeah. I can do math. Just takes a minute. That's all. Seven years later. Yeah. I can do math. Thank you. Just takes a minute.

That's all. Yeah. So the names of the guys who probably did this were in an FBI file. And the evidence against them was in that FBI file. And yeah, he just couldn't see it. Great. So it took a couple years of re-interviewing people, following leads, getting informants. But years passed and nothing happened. Finally, in 1976, he said, OK, FBI, you want to play hardball? Let's play hardball.

Pretty soon, I'm going to take a trip to the Lincoln Memorial. And on that trip, I will bring the parents of Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carol Robertson, and Denise McNair. And together, we will stand on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial and tell the media that you are withholding critical information regarding the people who murdered their daughters. Wow. And the FBI agents collectively shit their pants. I'm just going to say pissed their pants. It was so much worse than that. Okay. Yeah.

Pissed, though, I feel like is worse because immediate, like, just everybody can see it immediately. You just see the slow spread of the wet spot across their pants. The shitting the pants, it is worse for the person who did it, but it takes a lot longer for other people around them to realize that that's happened. We are talking about an office building full of FBI agents who have all shat their pants. You're going to know right away. The stench is going to get you. Okay. Just like the rhythm is going to get you.

Stench is going to get you. The stench is going to get you. Stench is gonna get you. FBI just shat themselves. Anyway, please don't interrupt again. Songs like that. So they did hand over some files. Yeah. But not all the files.

Okay. Because they had to use something to wipe with. Because they had to use something to wipe with. But it was enough that William Baxley thought he could at least prosecute the man he believed to be the ringleader of this crime. Robert Chambliss. Yeah. A.K.A. Dynamite Bob. Dynamite Bob. How are we spelling his last name?

Chambliss. C-H-A-M-B-L-I-S-S. Is that okay with you? Yeah, I'm just curious. Thanks a lot for interrupting there. I had this big plan for an ad break right now where I'm like, Dynamite Bob. And now we go to an ad. But then you had to ask about the spelling of the name and boy. Okay, hold on.

I'll get you right back in there. No, that's okay. What did people call him? No, you ruined it. Doodaloo! And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo! And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo! Oh, I did like a... You really brought it.

I'm really into it at the end there. I had no idea. You could be a singer. You could be Bobby Cherry. I could be Bobby Cherry. Okay. Back in business. Robert Chambliss let's die my bow pound his ass okay i'm sorry i don't know why i said that i just really hate this guy this is how you get i know you do i know you get so you go so far around that you're rape-induced.

I said, let's pound his ass. I didn't say, I'm going to pound his ass. There was a vibe. There was a vibe. Anyway, three women became instrumental in the prosecution's case against Robert Chambliss. One was Elizabeth Cobbs, his niece. Turns out he talked to her about the bombing. Wow. And she wasn't willing to cover for him.

Good for her. Another person who came forward was Gail Tarrant. Gail had actually tried to warn the Birmingham police about the bombing before it happened. For real? Yeah, apparently. And they were like, sorry, we're busy. Yeah, we're at a meeting. We're at a Klan meeting.

We're just buddies with them. We're not one in the same. Yeah, so she'd heard Robert saying the night before the bombing about doing something to, quote, the meeting place where the blank planned their marching. Another key witness was a black woman named Curtis Glenn. She was visiting Birmingham from Detroit. She was actually originally from Birmingham. Ma'am, what just happened?

There was a fuzz caught on the end of my finger. I was trying to be a pro, trying to not acknowledge it and keep telling my story but it was such a long fuzz it was a very long fuzz and i couldn't be a pro all right i'm sorry i'm kind of a mess this episode i know you haven't picked up on it at all. So, she was in Birmingham at the time of the bombing and she witnessed something fucking nuts. She said that at 2 in the morning

on September 15th, she saw a car with three white men in it. The dome light was on and she wasn't able to identify everyone, but she did later identify Robert Chambliss. And she had no trouble identifying the car. It was a white and blue 1957 Chevy. And I initially read that and was kind of like, well, I wonder why that stood out so much. Another article also added this fact, which I think is very relevant, that white and blue 1957 chevy had a 10 foot high antenna out the back

and they were flying a confederate flag okay so yeah that probably would stand the fuck out to someone yeah i think so 10 feet yeah well you want to scare the shit out of everybody, Brandy. Holy shit, I guess. Guess what? Tommy Blanton, the chef who blanches things. I'm so glad you remembered. Drove that exact same type of car. Oh, did he? Coincidence? Yes, probably.

Sure. No, not at all. Another witness placed Robert at the scene of the bombing, watching the destruction. So, yeah, that was enough. On September 24th, 1977, Robert was finally indicted. And would you like to hear something absolutely nuts? Yes. Okay.

Picture it. This man is charged with a hate crime like the most horrible hate crime yeah and he did the following thing while leaving a grand jury room robert saw a cameraman the cameraman was black so robert called him the n-word oh my gosh as he's walking out of being charged with a hate crime. Yeah. And he's like, nope, I'm totally innocent. Didn't do this. Oh, my gosh.

His trial began in November of 1977. Church members and police officers. 1977. Yeah, I'm afraid so. It's horrible. Holy shit. Church members and police officers and fire marshals testified about what they'd witnessed that day. His niece, Elizabeth Cobbs, testified that before the bombing, he'd told her,

just wait until after Sunday morning and they'll beg us to let them segregate. Wow. She said that after the bombing, he told her, quote, Okay. Other witnesses talked about how Robert always had explosives lying around and how he loved to share those explosives with members of the KKK. Yeah. I don't think you get the nickname. Wait, is he Dynamite Bob? He sure is.

I don't think you get the nickname Dynamite Bob by not having explosives laying around. laying around. Brandi's getting sad and sassy, which is kind of a fun combination to witness, honestly. Several Birmingham police officers testified that Robert had told them that he knew how to make a drip method bomb.

I don't even know what that is. What an idiot. Do you know what that is? No, but I've got a basic description here. It's when you make a bomb with a bucket with a hole in it and water and a fishing bobber. And I'm guessing some bomb stuff. I love the idea of being like, I've got the recipe right here. And it's just a bucket with water and a fishing bobber.

An FBI agent testified that a fishing bobber was found about 20 feet from the explosion, but oopsies didn't ever make it back to the crime lab. Don't worry about it. Prosecutors delved into his bombing arrests, which evidently dated back to 1949. Wow. Yep. Wow. Yep.

Yvonne Young, who had been the girlfriend of a Klansman, testified that she'd seen oversized firecrackers of dynamite in Robert's home. And to counter that, the defense introduced her medical records. They showed that she'd been treated for hallucinations and, quote, delusions suggestive of paranoid schizophrenia. Okay, so let me get this straight. They are claiming that this woman who saw dynamite at Dynamite Bob's house imagined it. Yeah. Can't listen to her. Okay. Bitches be crazy. That's what I'm always saying. OK. But what did they bring up in court that this guy is known by the name Dynamite Bob? And that would have been shared. The prosecutor gets up and he's like, hmm, well, she seemed perfectly fine when she testified on Wednesday. And if you'll notice, that breakdown that she had when she had to be hospitalized was a couple months after the bombing. So maybe she had that breakdown because she'd seen the dynamite that was used to blow up four little girls. Maybe that's what the problem was.

Do we think that's a possibility? No, no, not at all. Yeah. Closing arguments took place on what should have been Denise McNair's 26th birthday. So the prosecutor asked the jurors to give Denise a birthday present by solving her murder. As he spoke, he lined the jury rail with photos of the girl's corpses. Yeah, I do think you kind of, when so much time has passed. Yeah, it's important to remember the victims here. Yeah. And how horrible it was. Yeah, how brutal this was. Yes.

Victims here. Yeah. And how horrible it was. Yeah, how brutal this was. Yes. Defense attorney Art Haynes Jr., whose father had evidently been a segregationist mayor. Gee, I wonder how Robert chose him. Tried to get the jury to be reasonable. Oh, OK.

OK, I can tell you're getting real emotional about this and I don't want to hear it. you're getting real emotional about this and I don't want to hear it. Yeah, yeah, Birmingham had a bad reputation for being super racist, but you can't go outside the evidence for a verdict. There's not enough here.

If his client was guilty of anything, Brandy, it was a little rough talk. Oh, yeah. He said, rough talk does not make murder. Mr. Chambliss did not have any monopoly on rough talk in those days. And I'll ask you one other thing.

How would you like to be judged on what was said around your kitchen table? We never once talked about bombing a church around my kitchen table. Yeah, I guess that bombing a church around my kitchen table. Yeah, I guess that was the same story for the jury members because they found him guilty. Yeah. I will admit we've had some weird conversations around my dinner table. Sure.

Yeah. Stuff you wouldn't necessarily want repeated. None of them involved a hate crime, though. Nope. Nope. Nope. Mm-mm. So he was sentenced to life in prison when it was time for him to actually go to prison a few deputies approached him and robert said no cuffs no cuffs

i'm sorry sir it's not up to you and those aren't the rules so they didn't cuff him, did they? They sure didn't. Yeah. Fuck this. Fuck this whole thing. Uh-huh. Can you fucking believe that? No cuffs, no cuffs. And they're just like, okay. No problem, Bob. Sorry about this whole thing.

Yeah. As he was being taken away, not handcuffed. Not in cuffs. He turned to his lawyers and said, what a shame to put that whole thing on the back of an old 73-year-old man. Oh, fuck off, Dynamite Bob. Do you need a Kleenex to dry your tears? I do not.

Yep. Robert appealed his sentence on the grounds that he didn't get a speedy trial. Okay. Fucking nerve. The appellate court rejected his request. And then, in a highly unusual move, they worked together to create a small sculpture. It was kind of thick and pointy. Okay.

And they handed it to him. Mm-hmm. And they said, sit on this and spin. Okay. You liked writing that, didn't you? I just can't believe an appellate court did that. Yeah, it's nuts, isn't it? It was unprecedented.

Yeah. And so Robert died in prison in October of 1985. And that sculpture was lodged so far up his ass, they say he could taste it. Okay. Yeah. He always denied being involved in the bombing, but no one could hear his final denial because that handmade dildo was so far up his ass. Brandy, I don't invent these stories. You don't?

No. But, you know, Robert was just one of the bombers. There were definitely more. Bill, William, Billiam, Baxley served two terms as attorney general, which was the limit. He ran for governor but didn't win. And with Bill out of office, no one else in power seemed to give a shit about holding the other bombers responsible. Neat. Years passed. More years?

So many years. Finally, in the early 90s, the agents in the Birmingham FBI office were trying to figure out why their office had such a terrible relationship with black folks in Birmingham yeah shocking real head scratch yeah and so in 1994 special agent Rob Langford met with members of the black community trying to figure out hey why aren't we all bfs I almost said bfs I think the phrase is BFFs. Okay. Somehow Robert didn't see this coming. This can't possibly be true.

But the stuff I read was like, he was stunned to learn that the reason people didn't trust the FBI was because they were like, look what you did or didn't do with the 16th Street church bombing. Did he not know about it? I don't know, man. Okay. That seems so tone deaf to me. I don't understand. Okay. I think he'd heard about the dildo thing.

Okay. Oh my gosh. So Rob left that meeting saying that he would look into it. And he did. But did it happen quickly? No. No. Nothing in this case has happened quickly.

Because everything is terrible. Yeah. Except for the dildo, and I made that up. What? I know. I know. Because everything is terrible. Except for the dildo, and I made that up. What? I know. I know. Sometimes I just have to bring a little Christian.

I said Christian justice. You didn't even say your name. Today is rough. I don't know what's happening to me. It's a total breakdown. Your name is Kristen. I know. What day is it? Who's the president?

Oh, God. So many good questions. So in 1997, the FBI and the Birmingham police announced that they were reopening the case. OK. By that point, one of the alleged bombers, Herman Frank Cash, was dead. He died at his bank job, obviously. Yeah, naturally. So that left two more key suspects.

Bobby Cherry. And Thomas Blanton, inventor of blanching. Blanching, yeah. By that point, Bobby was 59 and he was living in East Texas. And he better have been going by fucking Bob by that point. No, I don't believe so. Bobby Cherry. Which, honestly, at this point, in fairness, if I'd committed a hate crime, I would also go by Bobby.

Because you're just trying like hell to be as adorable as you possibly can. He got real annoyed. Oh, did he? Yeah, by them reopening this investigation, dragging his name through the mud. Yeah. What the hell? Putting that dirt all on his name. So he held a news conference to say that he was innocent.

He did? He did. Okay. Love it. Uh-huh. That turned out to be a terrible decision. Yeah, did it? It's shocking.

They run that idea by anyone? Here's what happened. A lot of people saw that news conference and they were like, hold on, he bragged to me about doing the bombing. Oh. So they came forward. Yeah. Incredible. You'll love to see it.

Yeah. One of his ex-wives came forward. A random acquaintance came forward. His own granddaughter came forward. And they were like, yeah, hello. He told me he did it. For what it's worth, Thomas Blanton also claimed to be innocent, but he never held a news conference. And that makes me sad because this news conference brought me so much joy. Yeah. And that makes me sad because this news conference brought me so much joy. Yeah. So finally, on May 16th, 2000, the year fucking 2000. In the year 2000. Holy shit. Bobby and Tommy were both arrested and indicted on eight counts of first degree murder.

The plan was to try them together. But in November of 2000, Bobby Cherry's lawyers were like, no, no, uh-uh, you can't, no, our client has dementia. Oh, he's mentally incompetent to assist with his own defense. Oh, no. So that bought Bobby some time. Yeah. But Thomas's case kept on moving. Oh, he. So that bought Bobby some time. Yeah. But Thomas's case kept on moving. Oh, he's Thomas now?

Yeah. I called him Tommy to humiliate him. Oh, okay. Because I think any grown man should be humiliated to be called Tommy. That's fine. Thank you. What about what's his nuts? Who?

Tommy Lee. Do you think he can go by Tommy just because he's got that big old dong? I'm not a fan of Tommy Lee. Neither am I, but. So I shit on him, too. I shit on all of it. Thank you very much. Yeah.

Are you done talking about shit? Too bad. you very much yeah are you done talking about shit too bad okay so the prosecution shit in their trousers because neither of these two cases was very strong and the one against thomas was the weakest and now they're gonna have to do that one solo and first okay so they're like okay we need to go back through everything and see if there is any piece of evidence that we may have missed. And it turned out that they had missed something. What did they missed? What did they missed?

What had they missed? I was so excited that you had messed up. This is devastating. It's possible that's not what I said, but I'm pretty sure it's what I said. Let's go with it. It was something big, Brandy. It was something big Brandy. It was? Like a note from Tommy that said

I bombed It was better than that. What is it? Video surveillance. Oh not quite that good. Calm down. It's the fucking 60s. Yeah we got a Zapruder film of the church bombing. Zapruder? Ma'am What? Okay that's the fucking 60s. Yeah, we got a Zapruder film of the church bombing. Zapruder?

Ma'am. What? Okay, that's the film of the Kennedy assassination. Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry. My goodness. Which happened in 1963. Yes, I mentioned it in this very script two months after the bombing.

Okay. Let me teach you a thing or two. Hmm. Anyway, as it turned out, way back in the day when the FBI first suspected that Thomas or Tommy was involved, an FBI agent posed as a truck driver and rented the apartment next to Tom's. And he drilled into their shared wall. What? And he put a microphone under Tom's kitchen sink. Mm-hmm.

Holy shit. Yeah. So they have a recording of him talking about the bombing? Maybe they do. Can they use it? So they listen and listen. And these recordings were mostly shit. Like, mostly silence, obviously.

And boring, muffled conversations. Yeah. muffled conversations. Yeah. But as it turns out, nine months after the bombing, that hidden microphone captured something meaningful. Okay, picture it. Okay. It's a conversation between Tom, his wife, Jean, and some dude, some unnamed dude. He says like three words. Okay. We don't care about him. All right right maybe we do even maybe we do care i anyway um and it seems to have taken place either right after gene was interviewed by the fbi or maybe they were just talking about her interview with the fbi and here's how it went gene well you never bothered to tell me what you went to the river for to Tommy. Tom. What did you tell them I did? Jean. You didn't

even... Tom. What did you tell them I did at the river? What did they ask you I did at the river? Jean. They asked me what you went for and I told them I didn't know. Tom. They were interested in that meeting that I went to. They knew I went to the meeting. A meeting where they planned the bombing? Holy shit! What big one? Tom. The meeting where we planned the bomb. Holy shit! Jean. Tommy, what meeting are you talking about now? Tom.

We had that meeting to make the bomb. Jean. I know that. It's what you were doing that Friday night when you stood me up. Tom. Oh, we were making the bomb oh my gosh jean modern sign company tom yeah that's where they made the bomb i think i said bond they made bond bonds and a bomb because you get hungry you do you gotta have some when you're committing hate crimes.

Yeah. Yeah. Jean. I tell you what got me is when they told me that some people at modern sign companies said you weren't there. Tom. Said I wasn't there. Jean. Mm-hmm.

Tom. Oh, well, that's... Okay, now we've got the unknown male. Jean, you don't learn anything with the FBI. Every breath they utter is a lie. Jean. I know, but I didn't know that then, and I didn't know whether to think you stood me up to go out with somebody else. That's the first thing that hit me. You stood me up to go out with Waylene. somebody else. That's the first thing that hit me. You stood me up to go out with Waylene. Waylene? Isn't it funny how this thing, these things can fall apart? This man fucking murdered four little girls and she's like, what? He wasn't bombing places. He was out with Waylene. Potentially

I'm going to sing like a canary. Oh, my gosh. So this was huge. Yeah. Okay. You perked up at the sign shop a little bit. Yeah, I did. I did. That's going to turn out to be a big deal. That sign shop was a Klan hangout, and it was just three blocks from the church.

Okay. And here he is on tape saying that's where they made the bomb. And I just want to say that not all sign shops are clan hangouts. That's right. Not all sign shops are meeting locations for hate crimes to be planned. Some of them are just good, wholesome family businesses. Brandy's family has a sign shop. And we don't want to brag about it, okay? But not one bombing has been planned there.

Never. Not a single one. Not a single one is correct. Miriam signs. And Miriam cancels. And that's the best ad you guys are ever going to get right there. Right. So, okay.

You mentioned something earlier, like, are they going to let this in court? Yeah. What do you think? Well, he was recorded without his knowledge, which seems like a concern. I don't know what Alabama's laws are about that. Well, we do have the Fourth Amendment. Okay. Which, of course, stops the appellate courts from making custom dildos for us to sit on.

Now, clearly, they didn't pay any attention. They broke that law. Yeah. Okay. Clean off. See? All I have to do is be gross for long enough, and eventually you join in. Glad to have you with me, Brandy.

Okay. So the defense argued that the recording was a violation of Thomas's Fourth Amendment rights, which actually is more about unlawful search and seizure. Yeah, not not a thing about dildos. No. But in in their defense, when the founding fathers were writing these documents, the dildo hadn't been invented yet? Oh, I'm sure it had, actually, now that I think about it. But the thing is, dildo technology wasn't as advanced as it is today. These were more rudimentary dildos. Yeah, custom dildos were not being made. No, no, no, not at all. Okay. The prosecution had a really interesting argument against that. Against the dildos? No, the prosecution was pro-dildos.

Pro-dildos, okay. Okay. The truth was the prosecution wanted these guys to fry. Yeah, they want these recordings in, so. No, literally in the first trial, the prosecutor was like, I wish I could get this guy the death penalty. Unfortunately, it's not. Not on the table here. Yeah.

Yeah. So I'm sure he would have been perfectly fine with a dildo situation. I'm sorry. I keep bringing it up. No. The prosecution's argument was about Thomas's Fourth Amendment rights not being violated. Here's what they said. They said that in 1964, Tom and Jean, by their own admission, had no expectation

of privacy. They both suspected that their apartment and their phone lines were bugged. In fact, around that time, they ended almost every single one of their phone calls by saying, Bye, FBI. And the judge was like, okay. Yeah. Roll the tapes. Yeah. They're in. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Holy shit. Yep. Thomas Blanton's trial kicked off in April of 2001. That is nuts. 2001? That's terrible. It's terrible.

Holy shit. The bombing happened in 1963. Yeah. And's terrible. Holy shit. The bombing happened in 1963 and this is 2001. Yeah. In opening statements, Tom's defense attorney did our absolute favorite thing, Brandy. What'd he do? He's like, hey, my client sucks ass. We all hate him. Everybody hates him.

No one likes him. He does all kinds of shitty stuff but he didn't do this shitty thing yeah yeah he literally said just because you don't like him that doesn't make him responsible for the bombing he was a loud mouth he was a segregationist but the government wants you to make the leap that because he was so offensive he must have been the one who blew up the church and he was also like also the evidence isn been the one who blew up the church. And he was also like, also, the evidence isn't very strong, which I mean, yeah, there wasn't a lot of physical evidence. Yeah. And by that, I mean, there was no physical evidence.

Zero physical evidence. Yes. Yeah. The prosecution called on a lot of witnesses who testified to Tom's next level racism. They covered a lot of the same ground that was covered in Robert's trial. And they played the tape that we just discussed. And the defense eventually, eventually, essentially. I thought you were trying to say eventually.

Who the hell knows? I thought you were trying to say the defense eventually, but you couldn't get off the F sound. Everyone, I got to tell you, poor Patty. Poor Patty. By the time you listen to this, Patty will have taken a lot of my flubs out. But just know that I've barely gotten through. I don't know what my problem is. First of all, I hate this crime.

I don't want to ever cover child murder again. Why did I do this to myself? You can only ask yourself that question. You can only ask yourself that question. I can only ask myself that question. Nobody made you do this. I know. That's the worst part. That's the worst part. Anyway, I hate it all.

So the defense essentially said those tapes are super old. You can barely hear what's on them, which is true. I mean, like they had to call in experts to try to piece this shit together. The prosecution also played another tape, which was recorded by a fellow Klansman who had become an informant for the FBI. Great. Here's how part of that conversation went. Tom, they ain't going to catch me when I bomb my next church. Informant, how did you do that, Tommy? Tom, oh, it wasn't easy, boy, I'll tell you.

Wow. Yeah. Sounds like an admission to me. Could be. What's the defense going to say? Or, hear me out, what if they're just... It's just a guy bragging. This is locker room talk. Yeah, yeah. It's two drunk rednecks just trying to impress each other. Yeah. The defense didn't have a whole lot going on. They called two witnesses.

And in closing arguments, U.S. Attorney Robert Posey said, quote, these children must not have died in vain. Don't let the deafening blast of his bomb be what's left ringing in our ears. The defense kind of took a page from Robert Chambliss' defense team by asking the jury not to convict their client simply because they wanted to hold someone accountable for this crime. convict their client simply because they wanted to hold someone accountable for this crime. The attorney said, every one of you knows that this case is somehow linked to the image of this city. Don't get caught up in it. Okay. The jury deliberated for all of two hours. What was the makeup of this jury? Do you know? Oh, gosh, I meant to include. So, oh, Lord, let's see if I can remember, because there's going to be a couple trials here. Not super racially diverse. I remember one trial had no black women on it, which the prosecution was pretty upset about. Memory is mostly white juries with some black people. All right. The jury deliberated for two hours.

They found him guilty on four counts of first-degree murder. He was sentenced to life in prison times four. I'd never heard that phrasing before, but I like it. Yeah. The mother of Carol Robertson, Alpha Robertson, was 82 years old. She was one of very few surviving parents of the murdered girls at this point. And she spoke to reporters from a wheelchair. She said, they say that justice delayed is justice denied. And folks, I don't believe that for a minute. I'm very happy that justice came down today. I didn't know if it would come in my lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. I read something that another one of the parents said

about how they just kind of had to divorce themselves from the idea of their daughters murderers ever facing justice. Like they just couldn't focus on that. Yeah. I feel like that'd be the only way to survive, but I don't even know how you do it. How you do that. Exactly. How do you do that? I think faith in a higher power.

I assume. Yeah. So that just left Bobby Cherry Yeah His music career had gone nowhere Absolutely nowhere

Yeah His news conference career a total bust He was just a racist old man with a cute little name Yeah And he couldn't possibly

stand trial His brain was literal oatmeal brandy oh that's right he has dementia right yeah super bad dementia you wouldn't believe how bad kind of dementia yeah wouldn't believe it oh my gosh um the prosecution tried to argue that his brain was not oatmeal but the judge was like i don't know seems pretty mealy to me pretty soft and squishy to me yeah so in july of 2001 the judge was like okay prosecution sorry but you have not shown that this dude is competent to stand trial so i'm going to commit bobby to a mental health facility to be evaluated and that proved to be quite illuminating. Oh, did it? Yeah. So in that setting, Bobby was observed constantly.

And he didn't have dementia? Well, sometimes he did, sometimes he didn't. Okay. Well, that's the thing in dementia. You have good days and bad days. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Here's what the staff noticed. The staff noticed that after a couple months, when Bobby knew he was being tested tested and when he knew he was being observed, the man was as dumb as a lima bean. And that's a saying. Is that? No, it's not.

I don't think so. When he didn't know he was being tested and when he didn't. Yeah, pretty sharp. Okay. Uh-huh. Funny how that worked out, huh? That is interesting. So this went back to the judge,

and the judge was like, oh, look at you. You got a faker. Competent to stand trial. Congratulations. Dementia cured. Dementia adjourned. So his trial began in May of 2002.

Holy shit. Yep. The prosecution's first witness was Alpha Robertson, mother of Carol Robertson. She talked about her daughter and about the bombing. The prosecution played incredible video evidence of Bobby's violent racism. This is fucking nuts to me. They had a tape of civil rights leader Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth. So it was taken when Reverend Shuttlesworth went to register his children at the all-white high school.

I believe this was like late 1950s. And it showed an angry mob of white people trying to stop him. And the prosecutor paused the video. And in that frame, the jury saw a young Bobby Cherry grinning at Fred Shuttlesworth. They played some more of the tape. Bobby continued to grin. He pulled a set of brass knuckles out of his pocket, put them on, and struck the reverend in the head. Holy shit.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, this guy was a piece of shit. Prosecutors called officers who could poke holes in Bobby's stories. In 1997, he told a detective that, oh, no, I wasn't involved in the Klan. I quit the Klan a year before the bombing because my wife had cancer. Yeah.

Had to give it up on account of cancer? I think that makes sense. Hey, boys, I don't have time to talk about hate. I got to take my wife to the hospital. Sure, sure. But the prosecutor busted out his wife's medical records, and they showed that she was diagnosed with cancer in August of 1965. Oh, a couple years after the bombing. Oops.

Okay. In that same interview, Bobby had told the detective that he was at home on the Saturday night before the bombing. He was watching wrestling on TV. Just really enjoying wrestling. So the prosecution busted out. A TV guide? I wrote an old timey TV guide. Technically they didn't say that, but I hope it was the old timey TV guide.

Yeah. TV guides were so great. Yes. They had good articles. Yes. And I challenge you to have gone to a grandma's house in the 90s and not found the TV guide on the little chair next to the recliner. All right.

We've gone down memory lane far enough here. Wasn't there like a crossword puzzle in there too? Don't act like you don't know. They had all kinds of games in there. Yeah, riddles. Yes! Jokes.

Fuck. Almost as good as a Reader's Digest. Oh, I loved Reader's Digest too! Boy, life sucks now, huh? Anyway, so they bust out the old-timey TV guy.

No wrestling on that night. No wrestling on that night. And they turned to the defense and they said, wrestle with that. Stupid. They wish they'd said that. Yeah. They thought about that on the drive home. On the drive home.

They were like, damn it! Damn it! Bobby's ex-wife, Willa Dean Brogdon. Same Willa Dean who, like, the other lady had been worried about? Probably. It was a small town. No, that was... Try that in a small town.

It wasn't Willa Dean. It wasn't Willa Dean? No, it was Will Jean or something. No, it was Willa Dean. I don't think it was. Was it Jimmy Dean? It was, yeah. Okay, that's it.

I'm looking it up. Okay. I swear to you it's Willa Dean. Uh-oh. Yeah, this is the first time today I'm hearing. What did you say it was? I think it was like Will Jean or something. Will Jean.

Yes. That's not a name. Okay, hang on. What's another word I can search? I don't know. I'm not even asking you. I'm asking myself. Hold on.

Hold on. Waylene. Waylene. Okay. Oh, gosh. Oh, man. We weren't even close. Samsonite.

It was way off! Willadean and Waylene. Damn it. I was really hoping there was some messiness here. Evidently not. Okay, let's see here. Let me get back to... Willadean.

Not Waylene. Okay, his wife's name is Will i'm finding i'm finding this first of all bobby had like five wives okay 15 kids it's too much legit 15 kids yeah that's exaggerating no i i don't think i am but in fairness i don't know that bobby could tell you how many kids he had so many fucking kids it's too many kids that's's damn near Duggar status. Sure is. Are you going to cover the Duggars? Oh, God.

You know what? It's one. I fear it would be like this one where like a week beforehand, I'm like, oh, that'll be a good one to cover. Lots to make. First of all, I love to make fun of the women's voice. Yeah. Hi there, Brandy. It does sound like Michelle Duggan.

I know. I know. But it's so dark. Yeah, it is dark. Yeah. I might cover it. Yeah, when you got parents covering up molestation by one of their children, it's real dark. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. The molestation of their children by another one of their children. It's real dark. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The molestation of their children by another one of their children. To be fair, he didn't just keep it in the family, but... Okay. Yeah, that's the gross part is I've watched all the stuff on that.

You know all the stuff, yeah. Yeah. And I've asked myself, do I want to cover this? And the answer is usually, no, thanks. Yeah. All right. I'll keep asking you. Okay. And I've asked myself, do I want to cover this? And the answer is usually no, thanks. All right.

I'll keep asking you. Okay. I might develop the courage. So anyway, Bobby's ex-wife, Willa Dean. Not Jimmy Dean. Not Willa Jean. Not Norma Jean. No, it is Willa Dean.

She testified for the prosecution. It's not Waylene. Oh, not Waylene. I didn't even say the right one. No. In fairness, some of these names sound totally made up. Not even real names. No, no. I never heard of a Waylene before.

No. I never heard of a Waylene before. My grandma used to live across the street from a kid named Cooter Bill. Oh, I feel like we've talked about this before. Oh, yeah, of course we have. Cooter Bill and Clara Bell. Yeah. It's country stuff.

Yeah, to me, Waylene, way out there. And this is coming from a woman who has a grandmother named Shirlene. So it's not even that far off. No, it's not. That's even her middle name. But she goes by. First name's Wanda. Wanda Shirlene.

Yeah. You know what? I think it's part of the era. I think this era, the Eanes, it was kind of a sexy name. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My grandma was always a hot little number, Chris.

Listen, this is like your name. How I tell you, sorry, Brandy is a hot girl name, and you're like, no, it's not. But it is. It just is. Okay. Just like how Bobby Cherry's a cute name. Bobby Cherry is a cute name. There's no arguments there. It is a cute fucking name.

And Brandy is a hot girl name. Yes. Damn. Boy, she's pissing me off. Brandy, I've made you a sculpture. I am not taking your custom made dildo. Thank you very much. Damn it.

If I had the authority of an appellate court judge, you'd have no choice. So anyway, Willa Dean yeah who was a real person yes uh testified that he told her that he quote lit the fuse oh his granddaughter theresa stacy also testified for the prosecution she told the jury quote he said he helped blow up a bunch of bleep back in Birmingham. Holy shit. A bunch of witnesses testified that he'd bragged about the bombing. Because why keep that a secret that you murdered four kids? Is the defense going to do the locker room talk thing again about this?

Just hang on there. Just hang on there. I love what the defense did. You're going to love it too. I don't think I probably am. You. Okay. You're going to love it, too. I don't think I probably am. You know I think you're going to enjoy this very much. Okay. All right. What the prosecution really wanted to do was play the tapes that they'd played at Thomas Blanton's trial.

And that was kind of interesting because Bobby was never mentioned on those tapes. Yeah. Why? What do those is he maybe is he the third man on there no okay i don't think so okay it was the stuff about the sign shop that was very interesting hang out at the sign shop does he work at the sign shop do you own the sign shop no no no none of those things but well a little of the first one okay in an interview just a few weeks after the bombing, Bobby told the FBI agents that he had gone to the sign shop on the Friday before the bombing. Oh, shit. He said he'd gone there to make signs for a protest against integration of public schools. He said he'd been there with Robert Chambliss and Tommy Blanton. He'd gotten there at 530, stayed until after midnight.

He signed a five-page statement. Okay, so this just happens to be the night that they made the bomb, but he didn't know anything about it. Yeah, so he signed this statement linking him to Robert and Tommy, linking him to the place where the bomb was either created or at the very least planned. Yeah. So the prosecution could definitely show the jury that five-page statement. I mean, that was obviously admissible. Yeah. But they needed to play that tape in order to connect the dots

because if they don't connect the dots... Don't have that. Exactly. And, of course, Bobby's defense was like, No! No! No! Relevance!

They tried to argue that what was on the tape was hearsay. And that's a decent argument. Yeah. What? What would you be arguing? It's not hearsay. It's a direct recording of someone. But is it relevant to—I would think relevance is the bigger argument. How is that pertinent to this trial well it's relevant because the prosecution took the tactic of saying that the three men conspired together okay to bomb the

church sure and afterward they conspired together to conceal the truth and that's basically a hearsay loophole because if there's a conspiracy afoot, anything said by one co-conspirator against another can be used against in court. I got so excited. I got so excited. I lost words. Didn't lose the meaning, though. No, we all got it. He's fucked.

Yeah, he's fucked. They can play the recording. Yeah. So they play it. Hang on. I'm not even done telling you the exciting legal mumbo jumbo tell us about the loophole okay now normally the conspiracy ends after the crime is committed yeah but the conspiracy to conceal yes yeah so under alabama state law they're doing conspiracy to conceal

blah blah blah doesn't necessarily end right after the crime is committed. So it didn't matter that this was recorded nine months after the bombing. It was all part of the conspiracy to conceal. Yeah. Sure. Okay. I was very excited about all that.

I'm going to calm down now. So the tape was allowed in. And the defense, well, they did their best. They really didn't have much. Yeah. So they called character witnesses. They called Bobby's pastor, who said that Bobby fit right in at church. And guess what?

They had black folks at church. So what more do you fucking want? Yeah. I'm not racist. I have black friends. Don't worry about that video of me well and not even i love that it's not even black friends it's like he fits in yeah at church i go to church with black people oh my gosh okay now bobby's grandson is about to take my award for the best character witness there has ever been.

Okay, what's he say? Okay, he's there to defend his grandpa, right? Good guy. Good guy. Okay. He was asked whether he'd ever heard his grandfather use a racial slur. Here's what he said. He said, only on days end and end.

Why? Let's explore that, actually. Go down that route a little further. Because you're not far off. Really? Just tell me. He said, no. Only the use of the word bleep.

The N word. I'm sorry. He said. Do you not think that's a racial slur? Doesn't that say a lot? It sure fucking does. Isn't that like the racial slur? Yes.

Have you ever heard your grandfather use a racial slur? No. No. Only the N-word. He used the word. Yeah. Can you? Oh my gosh.

Yeah. Oh, it says so much. It says fucking everything. Most amazing character witness of all time. I'm putting him up there. Yeah. Do you have a picture of him? Is there like a plaque?

Well, I don't really want to celebrate this guy in that sense. Okay. Although, you know what? Actually, maybe we should because to me that is so hilarious. Yeah. When he's actually giving the perfect statement about his grandfather's character. Yeah. He just doesn't really know it.

Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Did the prosecutor jump up in the courtroom and like click his heels together? He sprayed confetti. Yeah. It's funny because when he got dressed that day, he's like, should I put confetti in my pockets? You just never know.

It's like he'd been going around for years with confetti in his pockets, waiting for the perfect moment. And you think it's going to happen. It just never happens. You don't walk up on a proposal or like a baby shower just any old time. Yeah. But then that happened and boom. Yeah. Confetti.

Confetti pockets came in handy. So you have them in both pockets or just one? Oh. You know what? For court, it does seem more dignified to just have one. Yeah. Yeah. And probably all just confetti that's all one color.

Oh, right. Sure. And not too small. Actually, no. I think the opposite. I think you got to do the real small confetti so it could just be like vacuumed up afterward. Sure. Okay.

I'm glad we've discussed this. Me too. Me too. In closing statements, the defense was like, hey, okay, our client is super racist. We're not denying it, okay? We can't deny it. He's a fucking racist. His grandson screwed the pooch.

So they're doing the thing of like, look, we're not trying to deny it, but he's not a bomber, okay? And the prosecution was like, hey, hey, great news. I'm going to make this super easy for you. You can either believe that Bobby was telling the truth when he bragged about being involved in the bombing, or you can believe Bobby was telling the truth when he said he was at the sign shop and they planned the bombing. Either way, he's guilty. Yep. The jury deliberated for six hours. Wow. I know. Okay. They were probably talking about their grandson. Can you believe he

said that? They were picking confetti out of their hair. No, they weren't because he only had one pocket full. It's like we didn't even have that discussion, honestly. They found him guilty on all counts, and he was sentenced to life in prison. But it had been almost 39 years since the bombing. Bobby appealed his sentence. His attorneys argued that he hadn't gotten a speedy trial. Yeah. Okay. On the fucking nerve.

Yeah. Yeah. So the court. That was for anybody who was wondering. What do you think they mistook that for? I don't know. I was just making it again. Brandy's just farting up a storm.

I'm not. The court of appeals denied that appeal. And in a somewhat unusual move, they created a medium-sized sculpture, and it was kind of stout and pointy, and they told him to sit on it and spin. Okay. Bobby Cherry died in November of 2004 in prison. Was something found lodged deep inside? We don't know and you know frankly it's none of our business that's right yeah okay so i'm not even gonna go into that sure okay i'm just gonna move along in 2016 thomas blanton went up for parole and the parole board debated for all of 90 seconds before turning him down. And as they turned him down, they made the, at this point, not very unusual decision to present him with a large sculpture.

Okay. And he knew what to do. Yeah. All right. Jesus. He died in 2020 in prison from sculpture-related causes. It wasn't COVID. So don't worry.

Okay. Twas the sculpture that got him. Yeah. Okay. Let's not end on that note, okay? Let's not. Instead, let's talk about the girls. Okay.

In 2013, just before the 50th anniversary of the bombing, Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carol Robertson, and Denise McNair were awarded congressional gold medals. They did not die in vain. Their murders woke a lot of people up. They did not die in vain. Their murders woke a lot of people up. Sarah Collins Rudolph, who was in the bathroom of the church that day and is often referred to as the fifth little girl, is still working for justice. This part drives me nuts.

Okay, so she was permanently injured in the bombing that day. And she spent most of her life working in factories or as a house cleaner. And so she rarely ever had health insurance. She did eventually get it through her husband's job. But she had all these medical bills that I'm sorry. Yeah. She should not be responsible for paying. No, not at all especially when you have state officials sharing hateful rhetoric yeah yeah and police looking the other way when shit gets bombed yeah no she should not

have had to pay for any of her own medical bills. In October of that year, she went to the Birmingham City Council and asked about restitution, but they said no. I read an article saying that she had hired attorneys and tried to get some sort of restitution based on the argument that, like, state officials played a role in this. I couldn't find anything saying that she got any money. But she appears to be doing pretty well now. She is a speaker on social justice issues, and she was present at the unveiling of a sculpture honoring the victims of the bombing.

The sculpture is titled Four Spirits, and it was unveiled on the 50th anniversary of the bombing. The sculpture is titled Four Spirits, and it was unveiled on the 50th anniversary of the bombing. Can I look it up? Yeah. It's beautiful. So it depicts the four girls as they got ready for Youth Sunday. And at the base of the sculpture is an inscription with the title for the sermon that the girls should have lived to hear that day. And the sermon was supposed to be a love that forgives. At the unveiling, the Reverend Joseph. Oh, it is beautiful. Yeah. Do you want to describe it?

Because I didn't really describe it. I just said that they were getting ready for the youth service. Yeah. Well, and, yeah, you've got one girl. It looks like she's doing tying the thing. But then there's another girl, like, releasing birds. Yeah. Yeah.

It's very, like, playful. Playful, whimsical. Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful. And I believe I read that it was designed by a Birmingham-born artist. So at the unveiling, the Reverend Joseph Lurie told the crowd, don't let anybody tell you these children died in vain. We wouldn't be here right now had they not gone home before our eyes.

And that is the story of the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. Oh, boy. 16th Street Baptist Church bombing. Boy. I think a lot. A lot of it's frustrating to me because. This isn't justice. This is bullshit. But the fact that it took so fucking long is insane. But what these girls parents did and what their community did, I mean, they really fought for civil rights. Yeah.

And made huge strides. Yeah. Anyway, it's a terrible story. I hated it very much. Yeah. Hmm. Anyway, it's a terrible story. I hated it very much. Yeah. You told it very well. It was horrible. I don't know that I did tell it very well.

I stumbling all the way through it. No, you did wonderful. And then I realized that I'd been referring to the dildo as a sculpture, and then I ended with talk of the sculpture, and I hated that. Yeah, it would be nice if we could undo that now. Yeah, it would be great. But, you know, I had to invent a dildo subplot for this story. Of course you did. I had no choice because these men evaded justice for decades.

So what was I supposed to do? Not invent? Right. The storyline where they all were given dildos. Death by, not just given. Death by dildo. Death by dildo. Yeah, remember that thing that I said about you coming all the way around and.

I know. Yeah. When you said that, it really, really hit home because I knew I had a lot of dildo jokes in this. hit home because I knew I had a lot of dildo jokes in this. And I was like, huh, I guess I do that, don't I? When I'm really mad in a case and it doesn't feel like there's quite enough justice, I sprinkle on. You do. That is a thing you do.

Some of my own violent sexual justice. Yeah. Sexual justice. Oh, my gosh. Coming to you on TNT. Oh my gosh. Coming to you on TNT. Oh boy. Should we take some

questions from the Discord now? My God, yes please. How do you get in the Discord? We haven't even plugged our Patreon. Oh shit. What the hell? We have one of those. It's pretty cool. You should check it out. What more do we need? Get on there

right now, folks. We got 51 bonus episodes. Yeah, 51 meaty fucking bonus episodes. They are meaty boys. Also, if you want to get some Let's Go to Court merch, go to our website. Oh, yeah. LGTCpodcast.com. We've got juvenile Bigfoot hoodies. Yeah. We've got Let's Go to Court t-shirts. Yes, we do.

We've got tumblers. Yeah, we have all that stuff. Stickers. Check it out. We've got a Bigfoot hoodies. Yeah. We've got Let's Go to Court t-shirts. Yes, we do. We've got tumblers. Yeah, we have all that stuff. Stickers. Check it out. We've got a sticker that says Dick's Insider, and I still don't get it. Mm-hmm. Oh, I love this question. B asks, how many owls would you have to see in a day to think it's weird? Two.

You think you think it's two? I think you think it's three. At two, you're like see in a day to think it's weird? Two. You think you think it's two? I think you think it's three. At two, you're like, what a weird coincidence. What a coincidence. I saw two owls today. Yeah, what a weird coincidence. Three. No, you think it's a coincidence at two.

It's not weird. Like, what the fuck is happening until you see the third owl? Okay, but weird and what the fuck is happening are two different levels, ma'am. That's true. I would think it's just like a fun coincidence at two. Like, oh my gosh, I saw two owls today. You know how much I'd love that. You would love that.

I would fucking love it. So then if I see three, I'm in fucking Harry Potter. My letter is coming. I have finally been accepted to Hogwarts. Congratulations. You're a Hufflepuff. I am not a Hufflepuff. You don't really get to choose. Sorry. Oh, Slut for Queer Books asks, what's your favorite type of fall seasonal coffee? I do have a seasonal drink that I love. It's not actually coffee, though. Oh, here we go. Okay. I go to Starby's. I get myself my regular drink, okay, is an iced chai latte with nonfat milk.

Okay. It's my regular year-round drink. Right. A little spicy tea. It's so good. Okay. Okay. But during the fall. Can we enter a promo code

for you at checkout? In the fall, you get that same thing, but you add two pumps of pumpkin, and it tastes like chilled pumpkin pie. It's so fucking good. That does sound delicious.

It's so good. Alright, venti, nonfat, iced chai latte, two pumps of pumpkin. Alright. That's what I'm telling you folks to try. Okay. Do you have a fall drink? No. Okay. I drink all

the beverages all the time. Yeah, all the time. That's right. You don't believe in seasonal. There's no soup season. There's no beverage season. Well, see, you can't get the pumpkin sauce outside of. Pumpkin sauce? Yeah, so they call it pumpkin sauce. Okay. Yeah, I don't know.

You're not a pumpkin spice latte basic bitch. I'm so much more complicated than you. No, you're just like black coffee. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of a deep thinker. Okay. I'm kind of a dark soul.

I'm sure you've noticed. I can tell immediately if they've put 2% milk in my beverage. Because you slash it and it leaves a film? No, by taste. It's too milky. I can taste it the second. That makes sense. That makes the second. That makes sense. There's the, oh, that makes a sense.

That makes a sense. No, I think there's a world of difference between skim and 2%. Huge. 2%. You're like, what luxurious lifestyle am I living? I don't like it. Oh, okay. Too much milk.

I don't like it. Do you ever think about milk? I, okay, I don't like milk. Do you ever think about milk? I, okay, I don't like milk. I just, I am a milk as necessary type of gal. I'm never going to like. Medicinal milk only. I mean, I'll eat it in my cereal. Maybe if I have a real rich cookie or something, I'll take a couple sips of milk.

Well, no, you can't. You're past the age of 10. We can't be having glasses of milk. Well, no, you can't. You're past the age of 10. We can't be having glasses of milk. Oh, my sister drinks like a glass of milk every night before she goes to bed. So does my dad. Are you? Ew. Yeah. No. Yeah, they're milk drinkers. They need to stop. They absolutely need to stop. We are not milk drinkers

in our household. Yes. My thing is, like, you know, grew up guzzling milk. Yeah. I know you think about it. It's gross. I just happened to watch Napoleon Dynamite yesterday, and there's a part in it where he is taste testing milk for, like, 4-H Club. And it's a real close-up shot of him drinking.

And then you see it, like, on his teeth. Oh, I hate it. Anyway, no, thank you. Sorry for the spoilers on Napoleon Dynamite. We're going to ruin it for you. Ooh, Doppen Ditz wants to know, Brandy, thoughts on emotional support biker shorts? I always wear my emotional support camis,

so when I wear dresses, I can wear my, yes, I don't even have to finish this question. Yeah, chub rub. Yeah. Helps with the thighs. Okay. Makes you feel like more secure in case your dress blows up. Absolutely. I am here for the biker shorts under the dress.

Absolutely. You truly are. I am a never nude. You truly are fully clothed multiple layers I look like Mrs. Doubtfire under my clothing Just try playing strip poker with this lady, you'll never win That's right, I got layers on layers

on layers Scream Court says, is it wrong to take candy as an adult when trick or treating? My partner and I usually dress up on Halloween and go for a walk to check out the neighborhood houses. We've had neighbors offer us candy even when the kids aren't around. I always feel weird about accepting and usually decline, but my partner is always happy to say yes, please, and wants to bring a treat bag. Yeah,

I think if it's offered to you and it is clear that it is just you as an adult, you don't have a child with you, absolutely. I think that's totally fine. But if you're going up to the door and asking for a piece of candy, fuck no. Move it along. What do you think, Kristen? You think even the being offered, you don't like it. I, this is, I'm sorry. This is when I'm a B.

Adults, buy your own candy. That's for kids. All right. That's for the children. All right. I hate myself sometimes. I hate myself sometimes. You know, I hear your opinion on it. I'm like, that's a nice opinion to have.

But it's not the opinion you have. No, not at all. So we get a ton of trick-or-treaters, and I love it. I love giving out candy. But when the parents get in there and grab candy for themselves. Yeah, no. The parents should not be in there grabbing candy. Fuck right off.

Right. But they do. But no, if you're around and they're like, yeah, take a piece of candy. Have a great night. Yeah. Have fun out there. I'm fine with that. Absolutely.

My feeling is you should, if you really want candy, steal some from your kids. Yes. You take the parent tax. Force them to go to a couple extra houses. Yeah. Now, having said that, I don't turn folks away. But you do judge them. I do judge them and I do take it a step further.

Sometimes we get repeat offenders. Oh, shit. And I say to them. You've already been here. No, no, no. No, no, no. I'm so much more passive aggressive than that. And what do you say?

I say, good to see you again. You petty bitch! And I give them candy. But I just want them to know. I want them candy. But I just want them to know. I want them to know. I see you. Amazing.

I see you, you nine-year-old. Good to see you again. I should not admit this. I love it. No. I love it. No, I love it. That's the best thing you've ever said. Mallory Rose asks, Halloween costumes this year for yourself? Several people have asked what London is being this year.

So we have Jackson this year for Halloween. So we're very excited. He said he wants to do like a family theme costume. So we talked about it this weekend. And he has decided that he wants us all to be Super Mario characters.

Oh, cool. So he has selected Wario to be his character because he really wants to wear the gloves and the mustache. Sure. And then we showed London some costumes last night and she wants to be Princess Peach. Yeah.

Yeah. So what are you and David doing? I think we're going to be Mario and Luigi. Yeah. Pretty basic. It is basic. But David really loves Bowser too and I was like, be Bowser. Yeah.

He's like, what are you going to be if I'm Bowser? And I was like, I don't know. I'll figure it out. Toad. Toad would be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I can tell you don't want to be Toad. I don are you going to be if I'm Bowser? And I was like, I don't know. I'll figure it out. Toad. Toad would be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I can tell you don't want to be Toad.

I don't really want to be Toad. What do you really want to be? Are you kind of mad that London stole Princess Peach? No, I'm not actually. No, really. I have a character that I play every time we play Mario Kart, but there's no costumes for it. And so I play Dry Bones. Oh. Yeah. It's my favorite character. but there's no costumes for it and so I play Dry Bones oh

it's my favorite character but there's no Dry Bones costume I looked high and low on the internet but I think I could just get like a sweatshirt that has Dry Bones on it and that would be cute yeah so maybe I'll do that okay alright

I also think you'd be an adorable Yoshi Yoshi would be cute I could just like, I bet they make like an adult onesie thing. That would be... And you could be the faithful mount. The faithful mount. Okay. All right. That is a cute idea. Yeah. I might be Yoshi.

You're welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, yeah. The Cat Lady asks, Kristen, how are your cats? We hear an awful lot about the pups, but I keep wondering how your cats are doing. Thank you very much. Let's see. What to report about the cats?

The cats are total bitches. They get it from their mother. The cats rule this house. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm terrified of both of them. Yeah. And, like, I think Norm's terrified of them, too.

Yeah. The other day he went out to get kitty litter. Uh-huh. And the store didn't have their favorite kind of litter. And I was kind of like, whatever. Yeah, it's no big deal. But, no, it is turning out to be quite a big deal. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. These cats demand the most expensive food. Are they kicking the litter around to let you know they don't like it? They're letting their displeasure be known. Yeah. Yep. Anyhow, that's how my wonderful cats are doing it.

Yeah. Yep. Anyhow, that's how my wonderful cats are doing it. Okay, this person, I don't know what their full Discord name is. It's standing with protecting underage blah something. Okay. I don't know. Okay.

But they asked, if you had to break up with yourself, how would you do it? Ooh. Yeah. My method would be ridiculous what would you do it'd be like you're too good for me yes that's the way to do it yeah yeah you really build yourself up yeah it's like yeah i'm so intimidated yep absolutely i i can't keep up i'd only hold you back yeah baby yeah i love that my instinct was to just ghost myself so ghost yourself that's terrible is it because you don't want to do the breaking up because you don't want to do the breaking up or because you don't want to be broken up with? Both. Yeah.

Both. Have you ever ghosty-woasted somebody? No. I've dated like three people my whole life. Yeah, I'm just asking if you've given a spooky goodbye. And I only broke up with one of them. No, I guess I've dated four people my whole life. I broke up with one of them and I did it over email and I regret it to this day. That's very brave of you.

What was the subject line? I don't even remember. It's probably like, hey. It's terrible. What a bitch. How old were you? I was in high school. Okay, well, that's not it. You're fine. You're fine. What a bitch. How old were you? I was in high school. Okay.

Well, that's not it. You're fine. You're fine. You're not a grown woman saying to children, good to see you again. Yeah. You know. Nice to see you for the third time this evening. Someone sure loves gummy bears, don't you?

Should we move on to some Supreme Court inductions? We absolutely shall. How do you get inducted on this podcast? What an excellent question. You sign up for our Patreon at the $7 level or higher. This week we're reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. Liz Shiner. Nick Carter.

Rachel Taylor. Christian Bale. Nicole. First crush was Yoda. Yes, Yoda. Told my family we were getting married. Amazing. Tina Mina.

Wes Bergman. Ooh. Justine Caprioni. Michael Jordan. Laken Beliveau. Ash from Pokemon. AJ. Rufio from the Hook movie. Rufio! Rufio! Michael Jordan Laken Beliveau Ash from Pokemon AJ Rufio from the Hook movie

Rufio! Rufio! I don't know what you're talking about. Now AJ's getting all horned up. I know! Sabrina Chad from High School Musical Rachel Nichol Toby McGuire

Aaron Hardman Shamar Moore Lindsay Seiss Claire Danes Emily Deal River Phoenix Rebecca Rivett Daniel Radcliffe

Kim Ritz Benny the Jet Rodriguez Calvin B Kirsten Dunst Jennifer The small weird man on Ally McBeal who performed Barry White in the Mirror for a confidence boost. Amazing. Weirdly, I know exactly who she's talking about.

Sheeny Bunny. Australian comedian Mike Hoo-Cheese Harry. I don't know who that is. Drew Pinzinski. Johnny Knoxville. Mackenzie E. Ricky Schroeder. Courtney L. Emilio Estevez.

Ashley. Billy Gilman. Waffles. One voice. One word. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Oh, God. Oh, it's not time for us to wrap this up at all. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support.

We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five star rating and review. Then be sure to

join us next week when Brandi will be an expert on a whole new topic. Will it be horribly depressing? Wait and find out. Probably. All right. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process.

For this episode, I wrote a bunch of stuff, then regurgitated it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. So I owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from the article, The Birmingham Church Bombing, Bombingham, by Mark Gatto for Crime Library, as well as reporting from NPR and the New York Times. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.