Let's Go To Court! - 274: A Big Bad Wolf

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

It was Halloween night. Doreen Erbert and her four-year-old daughter were cuddled up on the couch, watching a movie, when they heard a knock at the door. The knock sounded aggressive, but Doreen got up to answer it. She figured that she was about to encounter an eager trick-or-treater. Instead, she encountered a man in a wolf costume. Just before he attacked her, Doreen yelled to her daughter to hide.  And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “William Dennis” episode Snapped “JUSTICE STORY: Halloween horror as a masked man murders woman and baby” by Mara Bovsun, New York Daily News “Man In Wolf Mask Hacks Pregnant Ex-Wife To Death With Machete On Halloween Night” by Benjamin H. Smith, oxygen.com “Girl recounts grisly Halloween murders” by Michael Molinski, UPI “Halloween killer found guilty in slaying of wife, unborn child” UPI “Man guilty in murder of ex-wife, unborn child” by Tracie Thompson, The Peninsula Times Tribune “Condemned inmates, victims’ families speak out” by Bay Area News Group and Jessica Calefati, Lake County Record-Bee “People v. Dennis” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 52+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the big, bad wolf. Brandi, Brandi, Brandi, you've got a lot to learn, missy.

What? This is not a podcast where we tell each other children's stories. Oh, boy. Okay. Um... What? This is not a podcast where we tell each other children's stories. Oh, boy. Okay. What? Oh, this is some fucking horrible. Yeah, it's pretty bad.

So I shouldn't even be making a joke, even though you clearly made a joke there? It's not actually a joke. There is a wolf. There's a big bad wolf in this case. Well, okay, that is surprising. Yes. All right, I will stop. There is a big bad wolf. I'll get to all of it. Great. Shortly. It's rough.

Brandy, how are you doing today? I'm actually doing quite well. How are you surviving after the lunch incident? Oh, boy. Yeah. Everyone. Get a load of this. Yeah. Okay, gang. Barely survived lunch. Everybody gather around. All right. I don't care what you're doing. Driving a car, take your hands off the wheel and just listen to this. Okay, don't do that. Don't do that. But Jesus will take the wheel. Please listen intently. Okay, we went to lunch. All right. I ordered the salmon. It came with one signature side.

Was I a little greedy? Yes, I was. I wanted two signature sides. So I said, I will have two signature sides. I got the loaded baked potato. Yeah. And I got the broccoli. My salmon came out along with the loaded baked potato and I got the broccoli. My salmon

came out along with the loaded baked potato. Where was the broccoli? And the server said, so the person who brought the food out was not our server but they said, we'll be back in just a moment with your broccoli. It was Bugs Bunny with a dress on.

He thought he could trick us and he did. He said, I'll be right back with your broccoli. And foolishly, I believe that. Yeah, that broccoli never came. Never. So you're just, you got no farts inside you. Yeah. How am I supposed to podcast if I'm not holding back farts?

No, we did have fun with it. Because obviously it did not matter that I didn't have my broccoli. No, everything was fine. We did imagine a scenario where you go full Karen and you demand to have your full meal comped because the broccoli never came. See, that was your fantasy. Yes, that was my fantasy. My fantasy was much better where I not only demand my meal comped. That's right, because you need the broccoli

for your medical condition. My doctor specifically said I needed to eat more vegetables. You people are killing me. It's your fault. I would like that. I think I would like to go full Karen. Just for the entertainment. But then you wouldn't get to go back to that restaurant ever again. Well I would like that. I think I would like to go full Karen. Just for the entertainment. Just for fun. But then you wouldn't get to go back to that restaurant ever again.

Well, I would also die of shame for being an asshole. I'm talking like if there was like a virtual reality simulation. Oh, you want to do a Karen simulator. You get an avatar of yourself. I want to speak to the manager haircut. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I want just the smallest injustice to happen.

Yeah. Like them forgetting your broccoli. And I want them to understand that to me that means death. There you go. It's a very serious problem. Anyway, thank you all for listening. I hope I didn't ruin your day by hearing about how bad

my day has been with no broccoli. My lunch was great. Oh, wow. Wonderful. Great for you. I had so much food I couldn't even eat it all. Brandi just had all broccoli. I just had a giant plate of broccoli. Could I spare some for Kristen?

No. Absolutely not. Because my doctor insists that I eat a giant plate of broccoli for lunch every day. That's right. That's right. And that you not share. That's right. No, sharing is not caring. Mm-mm.

No. All right. Well. Do you want to talk about our Patreon? I do. But you know what? Do you ever get the cold sweats? You have the cold sweats right now?

No, more in a metaphorical sense. Oh, okay. Why? I don't know. I think I'm a little on edge today. Oh, all right. And I'm just envisioning, and I don't like to be this way. Okay.

But I'm envisioning someone listening to that story and taking it seriously. No, we are 100% joking. We didn't even complain that the broccoli never came. We just cried. Yeah, we never even told the server until the end when it was still on the bill. And I was like,

could you take this off, please? It never came. And she was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. And we yelled at her. I said, you fucking better be. And we didn't tip her. No, no.

We were like, no, it's no big deal. And we tipped her the appropriate amount. One dollar. Five percent. And that's plenty. That's plenty. That's all you need. I do worry sometimes that people don't get our sense of humor.

Well, I know for a fact they don't. Because every now and then you'll see something online and it's like, okay, ma'am, stop it. Anyhow. Stop unbuttoning your shirt. I'm not unbuttoning you, fucking wish. Oh, whippy cushion tits. Whippy cushion. First of all, it's whoopie cushion.

Whoopie cushion tits. How dare you? Everyone, we were joking about my boobs earlier. How she had to make a deal with the devil to get giant tits but the trade-off is that anytime they're touched they just sound like a whoopee cushion.

And that's what I said to the waitress. I said, I've got whoopee cushions for tits and I don't have broccoli? My life is hard enough. Do you think I'll surprise people

to know that we have these same types of conversations off of the podcast? Well, it'd be weird if we didn't. What do you mean surprise people? You think this is an act? No, I think there are some people who think our show is scripted.

None of this shit is scripted. We talk about this shit all the time. Can you imagine? If we wrote in a script a joke about you having whoopee cushions for tits. Hey, we can't count on ourselves to come up with that kind of brilliance in the moment. That's true. All right. We have to script it out.

Same with the broccoli bit. All right. We have to script it out. Same with the broccoli bit. All right. We got to plan that shit. Plan that shit. And if you like that. Yeah. If you like planning, why don't you plan to head over to Patreon and sign up for our Patreon. Did you guys hear that?

Huh? It was a seamless transition. Oh my God. Everyone, get a load of this for just five dollars five dollars yeah you can get access to like 52 bonus episodes my friends that's right meaty boy bonus episodes you also get into the discord to chitty chat the day away at the higher levels on our patreon you get all kinds of stuff. Wow, I really like how you went with that. You're going to be sick at how much.

You're going to be like, is this a sticker and some autographs in the mail? This is too much. Are they stalking me? Ad-free episodes. Get out of town. How'd they get my address? They're inviting me on a Zoom call. Who has the time?

That's you. Yeah. If you sign up for our Patreon. That's right. Yeah, you're just going to start complaining about all the benefits. You know another thing? What? Well, you know how you're sitting there topless right now?

I am not. You don't have to be topless, Brandi. We've got hoodies. Oh, shit. Yeah, for sale. LGTCpodcast.com. We've got t-shirts and hoodies and crew necks what in no world would i be sitting here topless i can't believe she's topless either gang i think something happened to what happened what would have happened but i was sitting here topless okay what would have happened if I was sitting here topless? Okay. What would have happened?

Okay. You know what? The only explanation. Is I've been abducted by aliens and replaced by there's an alien inside my skin now. Honestly, this is probably not the coolest thing to say. Yeah. Cool is not the word. But honest to God,

if all of a sudden you were topless, I'd be like, okay, brain tumor? Right. Like something has gone very, very wrong. It's either an alien sitting here in a brandy skin suit. Sure. And they don't know. They don't know.

First of all, they don't really understand why humans wear clothing. Sure, sure. So they're like, well, this isn't even necessary. And they certainly don't know my never nude status. Yes, yes. Because they don't listen to the podcast. Which is weird, because why wouldn't they? Why wouldn't they?

And we broadcast it out into the universe. We sure do. We pay extra to get it. Okay, this is so ridiculous. This is so stupid. You know what I think we should do? An ad. An ad.

Doodaloo. And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Is this the behavior we should expect from you all episode? I am feeling weird. I'm feeling real weird. Woo. Myomi. All right. Oh, you're going to bring it down. I'm feeling weird. I'm feeling real weird. Woo. My oh me.

All right. Oh, you're going to bring it down. You're going to bring me right down. Here's what I'm going to tell you. Okay. First of all, I'm going to blame this on two people. Yourself and yourself. No.

Absolutely not. We don't. Shout out to, and I already shouted them out on the bonus episode. But shout out to Blair, who messaged us on Instagram and reminded me that I said I wanted to do Halloween cases. Blair, we hate Blair. Blair recommended that terrible family annihilator case. No, Blair just recommended that I do a Halloween case. And I picked the family annihilator case from the bonus episode. Okay, partial blame to Blair.

So again, partial blame this time to Blair for suggesting that I do a Halloween case. It emotionally devastated us all. Sign up for our Patreon. Yeah. Okay, so I decided I would do one for the regular feed as well. So this is a Halloween-themed case. I picked four Halloween cases, okay? Okay.

Read a bunch of stuff about four different cases, and then I gave little mini presentations to David and made him pick which one I would cover. And he picked the worst one? And he picked this one. It's not the worst one, actually. They were all terrible. Of course they were. So I blame this case on Blair and David. You know, the common thread here.

Is me. Yeah. It sure is. Okay, so then time for some shout outs. First of all, to an episode of an Oxygen program. Snapped. Yes. But I'm putting an asterisk next to it.

Okay. Yes. Uh-huh. But I'm putting an asterisk next to it. Okay. Because I have a real bone to pick with this episode of Snapped. And if I remember, we'll get to it at the end. Mentioning something at the top and forgetting it completely is my thing.

So don't you dare. I'm going to make a little notey right here. Please do. Second shout out to Mara Boveson. Oh, we do, yes. Peace in the New York Daily News about this case. Great reporting.

And also to the court record. Okay. You didn't like how I said record? No, it was more how you said court. It almost sounded

like there was a Q involved. Court. Yeah. Okay. What else do I want to say about this case? My God. At what point do we start?

I will start. It's terrible. It's very much like a horror movie. So you will not like it at all. Great. Anyway, you ready to go? No. How brilliant.

I just say no and then you can't do this. I'm going to do it anyway. Okay, great. All right, here we go. I'm going to take a drink and clear my throat. Okay. Boy, oh boy. Doreen Erbert was a waddling oh it was Halloween night 1984 and despite being eight plus months

pregnant ah 31 year old Doreen had taken her four-year-old daughter Deanna out trick-or-treating Doreen's husband Charles had actually taken their daughter out for the bulk of the trick-or-treating because of Doreen's advanced pregnancy. But she had wanted to be a part of the festivities. So Charles had saved the last four houses, the ones closest to their own in their San Jose, California neighborhood for Doreen. And that was about all Doreen could handle. She was only four foot eleven.

Oh, my gosh. And with just a couple of weeks left until her due date, I can only assume that she was uncomfy. But also cute as a button. Uh-huh. Her friends actually joked that at this point in her pregnancy, her belly stuck out as far as she was tall. Okay, friends, be careful with those kind of jokes, but all right.

Right, yeah. So after the four houses, Doreen and Deanna headed home to cuddle up on the couch and wind down in front of the TV before bed. Charles had been holding down the fort at home, greeting trick-or-treaters, handing out candy. You know how Halloween works. I'm unfamiliar. But now that Doreen...

Did he say, nice to see you again? He did not to my knowledge. I think he was just handing out candy to anyone who walked up to the door. Wow. What a chump. So now that Doreen and Deanna were home, he told Doreen that he was going to run out to the store real quick. He wanted to buy a little more candy, get some beer. He told Doreen he'd be right back and he called to her to lock the door behind him. Okay. Charles was only gone about 15 minutes.

He ran to the liquor store, stopped by a friend's house real quick, and then he got home shortly after 9 p.m. Stopped by a friend's house? Yeah, I don't know what he was doing at the friend's house. I don't have no more information than that. There's no way that was only 15 minutes but okay. That's what Charles says. Charles says he was gone 15 minutes. All right. When he got home it was just shortly after 9 p.m. and he was surprised and a little annoyed to find the front door unlocked. Specifically because he'd called out to Doreen to lock it. Yeah, we understand.

Okay, well, you didn't react. You looked at me kind of with a blank face. Well, yeah, I had a blank face. Also, you're burping a lot. Ha, ha, ha. Everyone, Brandy's worst fear, aside from accidentally being nude. What scenario would I accidentally be nude? When an alien takes over your body.

Oh, right. Okay. We've already covered this. Okay, we don't have time to do it again. Shit, what was I saying to you? I burped. Oh, that's right. Brandy's biggest fear, aside from being nude, that's right, is to be burpy on the podcast.

It is. I don't like it. And so she doesn't like to drink. I typically don't drink carbonated things. I drink two Diet Cokes at lunch, and boy, am I paying for it now. Mm-hmm. But I'm loving it, because every time she has a little burp, she looks like she's dying inside.

And Patty, remember, we can't cut that stuff. Okay. Because, you know, we keep it real on this podcast. Yeah. Okay. Are you ready for this case to get terrible? Yeah, go ahead. Right now.

So Charles gets home. He's surprised to find the door unlocked, but nothing could prepare him for what he found when he pushed it open. When Charles stepped through his front door, he was met with a gruesome scene. There was blood everywhere. It was pooled on the floor. It was sprayed across the walls and the ceiling. It was on the couch. Charles couldn't understand what he was even seeing at first. Then he saw Doreen laying on the floor, surrounded by a massive pool of blood. It seemed to be coming from everywhere at the same time. Oh, my God. He looked around the room in an effort to assess what he was seeing,

and on the floor near Doreen, he saw a fetus. Oh, my God. At first, Charles thought Doreen had suffered a miscarriage. She had suffered two in the previous couple of years. I believe one was in a pretty advanced stage of pregnancy. Right. But when he reached for Doreen's hand, he discovered it wasn't there. Oh, my God. It had been completely severed above the wrist, and it was laying on the floor next to the fetus. Holy shit. Yes. This wasn't a miscarriage.

Doreen had been brutally attacked. Well, yeah, I don't think you needed to say that. Yeah, I mean, thank you. Well, yeah. There were large wounds to every part of her body, including massive slices to her abdomen. Charles, in a panic, initially tried to hold Doreen's abdomen closed, but then realized that he needed to get her help. Yeah. Somehow, I know, I can't, I can't. It's horrific. Yeah. Somehow, at this point, Doreen was still breathing shallowly despite the massive trauma and blood loss. Charles got up to go call 911, but there was so much blood that he turned to run to the kitchen and he slipped and fell. Charles finally got to the phone, but for some reason the call to 911 would not go through. He like dialed it over and over and over again.

It wouldn't connect. Had someone cut the phone line? No, the phone line was live. He just like for whatever reason, I don't know if like maybe the 911 call center was getting a high volume of calls at that time, but the call would not connect. So Charles then called the fire department separately, which I didn't know that was a thing you could do. But, I mean. Well, you've got to call somebody in this situation. Yeah, so he calls the fire department, and then he also calls a neighbor and asks them to call for help.

Yeah. After calling for help, it dawned on Charles that his four-year-old daughter, Deanna, should be in the house. I hate everything about this. But he hadn't seen her anywhere. He called out for her over and over. And finally, a little tiny voice responded from the living room. Deanna was hiding behind the couch, physically unharmed. Oh my God.

Yeah. When first responders got to the scene, they discovered Charles completely hysterical and covered in blood. Of course. Of course. Some of the first officers who were on the scene said that, like, it was so shocking. Just, like, looking into the front door, everything in the house was red. Yeah. They described it as something out of a horror movie. Well, of course you were.

And the fact that it was Halloween night just made the whole thing just completely bizarre and eerie is how they described it. Yeah. Immediately, police officers suspected Charles might have been responsible for the brutal attack on Doreen. He was covered in her blood. And he was, I mean, He's the husband. He's the husband.

And he's like, he's acting completely hysterical. They said he was babbling, much like I just did, because I couldn't find a word. Yep. Would that really be that unusual? I totally agree. I don't think this is that alarming at all. I think if you walk in and you find your wife in that position and your unborn baby. Right.

And your traumatized four-year-old. Yes. Hiding. Yeah. I don't feel like there's going to be a wrong or right way to react, but I would not be surprised at all if I couldn't put words together. I totally agree. They said he was rambling, almost incoherent. Yeah. They actually ended up detaining him. They cuffed him.

They put him in the back of a police car. And as he watched them load Doreen into the back of an ambulance, he kicked the doors and windows of the cruiser and he begged them to let him go to the hospital with his wife. Yeah. But they told him no. Instead, they took him down to the police station for questioning. Yeah. When paramedics arrived on the scene, she was pronounced dead in the ambulance en route to the hospital. By that time, Charles was sitting in an interrogation room naked except for a little paper gown they had given him because they had taken his clothes as evidence. Well, they didn't give him. He was wearing. He is the one who describes this, and he says they gave him a paper gown to wear.

If he didn't do this, and it sounds like he didn't do this. He did not do this. This is horribly traumatic. Horribly traumatic, yes. So he's sitting in an interrogation room, naked except for a paper gown, like you're waiting for your gynecologist to come in. Right. And an officer came in the room and said, your wife is dead. Charles broke down sobbing.

Yeah. And he asked the officer for a hug. Oh. And the officer told him no. Oh, God. I just trauma on trauma here. Yeah. I understand that the first suspect is the person closest to the victim.

Right. But you've got to be careful with how you treat people because what if they're not the perpetrator? Exactly. And so he didn't even get to be with his wife while she died. Right. And he learned about it in this horrible manner. And they couldn't even give him a spare set of clothes. No. Yeah. Oh.

Yeah. Back at the Erbert home, investigators were hard at work processing this horrible scene, and they found a couple of things that made them think maybe Charles wasn't the one responsible for the murder of his wife and unborn child. Oh, good God. By the Erbert's front door, they found a Halloween mask. It was a mask of the Big Bad Wolf, like the cartoon Big Bad Wolf with the bulging eyes and the tongue hanging out and the exaggerated teeth. Oh, my God. They also discovered a trail of blood leading away from the Erbert house that led down like the walkway, down the block, and then came to a sudden stop like somebody had gotten in a car and driven away. Oh. They obviously gathered a bunch of blood samples, but at this time all they did was blood typing.

This is before DNA testing. And so all they could do was take a bunch of blood samples from the scene and see if there were multiple types of blood present, you know, see if the killer's blood was mixed in with the victim's blood. was mixed in with the victim's blood. So one team is at the house doing that type of stuff, and another team is canvassing the neighborhood, talking to the Erbert's neighbors, asking if they had seen or heard anything that night. Oh, gosh.

But, I mean, on Halloween night? So a couple of people did say that they had saw something, seen something is typically how humans say it, I believe. They saw something? Had seen something? They saw something. What did I say? I said they saw something, which is wrong.

Yeah. Okay. And it makes you an idiot. It's right. A couple of people said that they had seen a man dressed in like mechanics coveralls. Okay. Wearing a big bad wolf mask without a child with him. He was not out trick-or-treating. Right.

And he was just standing across the street from the Erbert house staring. Oh, God. Yeah. That's terrifying. Like a fucking, God. Yeah. That's terrifying. Like a fucking horror movie. Yeah. So they're like, okay, so that's scary as hell. And then also a couple of neighbors, when they were asked if they knew if the Erberts had any enemies or anybody who would have ill will toward them, a couple of them mentioned a man named Mike.

William Michael Dennis, who went by Mike, was Doreen's ex-husband. Doreen had met Mike when she was working as a physical therapist in the Bay Area. She happened to work near the Lockheed factory where Mike worked as a sprayer. Don't ask me what that means. I don't know. I'm paint sprayer, right? I have no idea. Sure. Sure. He's painting things at the Lockheed factory.

Yeah. With the spray gun, right? Sure. And the two were set up by friends. Mike had always had trouble meeting people and making friends. had always had trouble meeting people and making friends. He had a hearing impairment, which resulted in him having a speech impediment and a stutter.

And he'd had to wear a hearing aid, which at this time was like this big bulky thing that had like a wire that ran all the way down. He had to carry this big box in your pocket. And so because of those things, he had a really hard time connecting with people. And he also, he had to read hard time connecting with people. Yeah. And he also, he had to read lips a lot, even with his hearing aid. Sure.

And so people said he just stared all the time. Oh, well. But he was trying to read lips so that he could be involved in a conversation. Right. And so he did. He had a really tough time meeting people. Yeah, you absolutely would. And in that situation,

you would really kind of have to be one on one with somebody. Exactly. Because how do you keep up with a conversation if you can't? Yeah. OK. Yeah. And so all of that resulted in him suffering from depression. He had a really hard time. And he told a psychiatrist years later that he had trouble getting girlfriends. Sure. He didn't have the confidence to talk to anyone. Yeah. But when he got set up with Doreen, I mean, that was like, he thought he'd found the one.

Like, truly thought the answer to all of his social issues were, like, were taken care of. Yeah. By meeting this wonderful woman. OK, I do have to say a little disclaimer about William Michael Dennis here. He has three fucking first names. And every article refers to him a different way. So if I accidentally call him William or Dennis, I apologize. His name is Mike.

That's what everybody called him. But every article refers to him a different way. Okay. So Doreen and Mike really hit it off. Doreen did not care about the speech impediment, did not care that he had a hearing aid. She really enjoyed spending time with him. And he opened up to her. Sure.

And within a few months of dating, they got married. Oh, my God. Yeah. And then they had a baby boy they named Paul. Mike loved being a dad. It was like the thing that his life had always been missing for him. Mm-hmm. And Doreen was an excellent mother.

But together, the two of them didn't thrive as a little family. It was a lot of stress being new parents and they were still a new couple. They were a very new couple. And so in 1977, they divorced. Doreen got primary custody of Paul. I believe that Mike did this willingly. He really didn't believe like he really believed Paul should be with his mother. And then he would spend.

It was the 70s. I mean, that's kind of how we're common. Yeah. And so I don't think Mike had actual like any actual court ordered custody agreement. Like it was like Doreen had full custody. But then Mike would sometimes come over to Doreen's house and spend the weekend with just playing with Paul. Or sometimes Paul would come to his house. But it wasn't like, you know.

It wasn't something set up by the court. Correct. And so Mike loved the time that he got with his son, but he really felt like that life that he thought he had achieved by, you know, marrying Doreen and having the son had just like slipped through his fingers. Yeah, that'd be terrible. Yeah. And he just he thought the chance of that like ever happening again was was not likely. And so he really had a hard time coping with the divorce and the custody arrangement and everything.

Doreen did not have the same issues. Doreen really got like back into life pretty quickly. She met Charles Erbert, who we know as her husband. They actually met. She like got a flat tire, broke down on the side of the road. And Charles actually just pulled over to make sure she was OK. OK, that is the cutest meet cute I've ever heard. Yeah.

And he helped her change the flat. And then at the end, he was like, can I have your number? Would you like to get some coffee sometime? You know. Oh. Yeah. And Doreen really was drawn to Charles. He was so kind of free and happy-go-lucky.

And she just like, that was just very stark contrast to how Mike had been in their marriage. And so she just, it was like a breath of fresh air to her. And she was really drawn to him. He had a very steady job. He owned a carpet store, I believe. OK. And they moved. They moved pretty quickly.

They got married right away. And then they had their daughter, Deanna, in 1979. So they had Deanna and they were raising Paul together as well. And Charles really treated Paul like he was his son, like they were just a big, happy family. And every now and again, Mike dropped in and was visiting Paul. Where was Paul on Halloween night, though? I'm going to tell you right now where Paul was on Halloween night. OK.

In February of 1980, tragedy struck at the Herbert home. The Herbert's had a pool in the backyard and the pool was fenced. Yep. Because they'd had a previous incident where their dog had fallen in the pool and drowned. Yeah. When that had happened, Mike had insisted that they put a fence around the pool and drowned. Yeah. When that had happened, Mike had insisted that they put a fence around the pool. Right. Because he knew his son

was at that home. He actually even paid for part of the fence. Wow, yeah. Yeah, on one day in February of 1980, Deanna was down for a nap. Doreen was in the house

doing some chores and Paul was playing in the backyard. And somehow he slippedoreen was in the house doing some chores and Paul was playing in the backyard and somehow he slipped through a hole in the fence. Oh my God. And he drowned in the pool. That is horrible. Doreen looked outside, realized that she could not see him, ran outside, found him floating in the pool, ran to a neighbor to get help. They pulled him out of the pool. He went to the hospital.

He was on life support for a week. After a week, they took him off, and three days later, he died. Oh, my God. Just short of his fifth birthday. This is horrible. Devastating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know how people recover from the death of a child. I don't either. I don't either. Yeah. Ugh. This was obviously, like we said, a devastating event for everyone involved, but it hit Mike the hardest. Yeah, I mean, you'd have very complicated feelings about blame.

Mike completely blamed Doreen for Paul's death. for Paul's death. He believed that he had seen this coming and had told them everything they needed to do to prevent this, and he'd helped pay for the fence and everything, and then it still happened anyway. Yeah. He blamed Doreen 100% for Paul's death.

Oh, God. He even went so far as to file a wrongful death suit against Doreen and Charles for Paul's drowning. Wow. And it went to trial in March of 1982. Okay. OK, what? So I wasn't able to find really anything about the trial, only that the jury ruled in the Erbert's favor and said that this was just a tragic accident, that no negligence had led to this. Yeah, I'm curious about that fence.

Like, right. How big was the... So what was said in the sources that I found is that at some point it looked like the dog had dug a hole under the fence. So it left a big enough opening that Paul had been able to slip through. He couldn't get... It was plenty tall. He couldn't get over it. He didn't know how to do the latch. It was simply that the dog had dug a hole. He'd found it and he was plenty tall. He couldn't get over it. He didn't know how to do the latch. Right. It was simply that the dog had dug a hole.

He'd found it and he'd been able to crawl through it. Oh, gosh. Okay. That's awful. It's devastating. Yeah. It is so horrible. Yeah.

Also a different time for parenting. Absolutely. Yes. Because I feel like people don't. Just let their four-year-old play in the backyard. No. No. Yes. Because I feel like people don't. Just let their four-year-old play in the backyard. No. No. No.

It is. It's just such a different time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Dorian really thought he was safe because he was in the area of the yard that was fenced off from the pool. And she was, you know, watching him. And she was just doing chores around the house.

And she'd call out to him every so often. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I don't think many parents would do that in this day and age. It's just a very different time. Yeah. Yeah. Mike was devastated to lose this civil case against the Erberts as well.

this civil case against the Erberts as well. Reportedly after it, he went to his attorney's office and like curled up in the fetal position and cried and said that his son's life wasn't worth anything. Yeah. Over the next couple of years, Mike's life and his mental health continued to deteriorate because of his involvement in this civil suit moving forward. Like he ended up missing a bunch of work and it got to the point that they pulled him in and they're like, you're going to we're going to lay you off. You can't you're not reliable enough to have a sprayer position. And so in order to keep his job, he had to agree to move to a lower position, which resulted in like a $3 an hour pay cut. Oh, shit. Yeah. Yeah, that's big. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it was like, so in 1984, and I didn't adjust this for inflation, the sprayer position paid like $13 an hour and the position he was demoted to paid $10 an hour. Yeah, that math makes sense.

Yeah. Thank you. That is. Everyone, she's making a face at me. I am. It's not a very nice face either. Yep. Yep.

Mike talked to a lot of people about Paul's death. He could not move past it. Yeah. And he told everyone that Doreen was to blame for his death. He came to believe that Doreen had intentionally killed Paul. Oh, my. So that she would no longer be tied to Mike. Oh, poor Mike. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, he needed therapy. Oh, very badly. I mean, he needed a lot of things, I'm sure. He needed a lot of things, yes. Yeah, he told people that his ex-wife had murdered his son. He truly convinced himself that this was not an accident. If you convince yourself of that, how do you... We're talking about how do you move forward from the death of a child, but how do you move forward from honestly believing... Honestly believing that your former spouse intentionally killed your child.

Oh, my God. Yeah. It's horrible. Yep. So he's over here just stewing and stewing and stewing with all of this. Meanwhile, Doreen and Charles are thriving and moving on with their life. They did suffer a couple of miscarriages during the same time. But then finally, in 1984, Doreen announced that she was pregnant.

Yeah. And they were going to have a baby boy. Okay. Mm-hmm. And so... Oh, gosh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So she's moving on with this whole new family, and now she's going to have a replacement son. And so. Oh, gosh. Mm hmm.

Yeah. So she's moving on with this whole new family and now she's going to have a replacement son. I mean, in Mike's mind, that's what's happening. We all know you're not saying that. I just want to be very clear that I am not saying that. You're right. You're right. Yes. But obviously, as I've already told you, Doreen was brutally murdered before she ever gave birth to that child.

So investigators learn all of this and they're like, I think we need to talk to Mike. I think we owe him a big apology and a pair of trousers. No, no, no. That's Charles. Oh, I'm sorry. I got confused. Charles is the one they owe pants and an apology. Yes. I want the pants first and the one they owe pants and an apology. Yes.

I want the pants first and then the apology. Just as my personal. That's how I would personally like it. Honestly, what the hell would you do? As a never knew. Okay, they've taken me in and they're like, we have to have your clothes for evidence. Here's this tiny paper gown. Yeah.

I mean, it would be horrific. But the police told me to do it. So, you know, I would. Yeah. But how do you live? I mean, it would be horrible. I would be curling up as much as possible. Sure.

And I know they're looking at me through that. Of course they are. Two way mirror over there. They're like, why is this grown woman so afraid? Clearly there's something up with her. Yeah, exactly. They're going to think I'm suspicious as hell. Yeah, they're going to be like, she's probably a serial killer.

Yes. Clearly. Can't even be in her own skin. Also, why did we ask for her clothes and somehow there are three sets of clothing? There's so many layers. Like after each layer, I'm like, can I leave this one on? They're like. Like, no, we need sets of clothing. There's so many layers. Like after each layer, I'm like, can I leave this one on? They're like, no, we need all of it.

And at a certain point, they just get curious. They're like, let's see the next one. How many more are under there? I'm like a Russian nesting doll. So investigators are like, we need to talk to Mike, obviously. And so they look up Mike's address.

They find out that he lives six blocks away from the Erbert's home. There's actually like a pedestrian walkway that connects his neighborhood to their neighborhood. It's like a six minute walk from one house to the next. Had they always lived that close together um yes i believe he had moved that like he had specifically moved into that neighborhood when doreen close to his son to his son yes exactly when doreen had moved into charles's house so this is that's where they lived he had moved into that neighborhood so that he could be close to Paul. Gotcha. Yeah. Should we break for an ad?

No. Okay. Do-do! And we're back from the ad. Do-do! Do-do! Okay. So police show up to Mike's house six blocks away from the Erberts.

There's a truck parked in the driveway and the police just kind of, you know, shine their light. Yeah. Is there blood in it? All over the inside of it. It's on the steering wheel. It's on the floor. It's on the key. The ignition thingy.

That's the official term. It's all over the inside of this car. Yeah. So they walk up to the door. They knock. I mean, they do that official police knock, I'm sure. No answer. But there's lights on in the house. Right. And they can hear water running. Oh, my God. And they're like, holy shit, holy shit. He is destroying evidence right now. Yep. And so they knock again.

Do they know he's hard of hearing or no? I don't know. That's a really good point. I doubt they knew that at that point. Okay. So they knock again. No answer. So then I've never heard of this.

I thought this was very, I was going to say cool. It's not cool. It's just an interesting thing they did. Okay. They then called dispatch and had dispatch call his house and tell him that the police were at the door. Hmm. And so they hear the phone ring and he answered it. And then a few minutes later, he comes to the door wearing a robe. I feel like nowadays they just bust your door. I think they do, don't they?

Well, they've got probable cause, right? Yeah, do you see the blood in the truck? I had it described to me in more detail than I wanted, frankly. Yeah, the key ignition thingy. We all heard about the key ignition thingy. Yeah. Okay, so he answers. He opens the door in a robe, or as one source put it, a dressing gown.

Was it Ebeneezzer Scrooge? I was going to say that writer was from the 20s. Right. He answered the door with a single candlestick in his hand. Right. So he lets them in and they let him know that they are there because his ex-wife has been attacked. And he's like, he doesn't really react to that. And they like sit down with him at a table.

Right. And they're like, Doreen is dead. And he said, you're kidding. Which is not a great response. Well, okay. So if he thinks this woman murdered my son and I tried to make it somewhat right through the court system, that didn't work. If his thinking is then I murdered her and like he's got the bloody truck maybe he doesn't care if he's caught he cares but okay yeah so they ask him if they they can you know sit and talk for a bit and he's like that's fine and they ask if he will allow them to

do a consented search of his home because also also on the way in, they notice like blood droplets like all along the way. And so he says, yes, he would let them do a consented search. He, in fact, says that he has nothing to hide. And so at this point, I don't know if this is how they still do it, but they actually had a form that he had to sign saying that he consented to a consented search. So this is not a search warrant search. This is just a cursory examination of the home. No, we've heard about your fucking consented searches.

I know, we've heard about consented searches, yes. So he goes— I'd say yes to them every day because they never find shit. Correct. Okay. Except for in this case, surely. No? You're going to be shocked.

Well, they saw blood. So that's basically all they find in the consented search is a bunch of blood and some bloody bandages. So back up just a second. They have him sign. They want him to sign the form. He goes to sign it and he's got his hand all wrapped in gauze and it is like actively bleeding.

It's bleeding through the gauze. And they're like, what happened? What did you do to your hand? And he said, oh, it's the silliest thing. I was tossing a knife around in the kitchen and I caught it by the blade. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

So he's like, it's fine. I'm fine. Don't worry about me. And they're like, yeah, no, we're not worried about you. I mean. I was tossing a knife around. What else are you going to say, I guess? If you're not going to be honest.

Yeah. Doing that thing we all do. Or just tossing a knife into the air. I have learned now that I shouldn't do it. Yeah. Okay. So he ends up signing the consent, not the cassette. There was no cassette tape for him to sign.

Mixtape number three. So he signs the consent form with his left hand and they do a search of the home. They find, like I said, a bunch of blood. There's blood fucking everywhere. Like just a trail of blood around his house. There's bloody bandages in the trash. Well, don't make too much of it. He's throwing house. There's bloody bandages in the trash. He is. Don't make too much of it.

He's throwing knives in the air. Knives in the air. They notice that on his bed is a pair of jeans that have a lot of blood on them. So they, you know, they're like, OK, we're going to take that. I don't know if they can take anything to a consented search. Maybe they just make a note of it. OK. I'm not really sure.

But then he's acting real weird when they're in his bedroom near his bed. They notice that he keeps, like, glancing at the headboard. Yeah, because he hid the knife there? No, no knife. There's a loaded gun behind the headboard, they discover. So with all of this, with the bloody hand, the jeans on the bed, gauze everywhere, they do actually place him under arrest at this point and take him into custody. Then they are able to get an actual search warrant to do a more thorough search of the home. And during that more thorough search of the home, they go into his garage, which they apparently did not enter during the consented search.

And you're not going to believe what they fucking find in there. What? Two handmade wooden coffins. Ew, shut up. What the fuck are you talking about? What the fuck are you talking about? Two hand-sewn body bags, two anchors with weight systems on them, and a map of the San Francisco Bay. Oh, my God. Mm-hmm.

And the two coffins were, like, a large one and then a slightly smaller one. Oh, my God. They put together that he had intended to take Charles and Doreen, put them in these handmade coffins, weigh them down, anchor them down, and throw them into the bay so that they would die the same way his son had. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Yep.

This is literally like a fucking horror movie. Oh. They also found during this search warrant search a receipt from a hardware store where he had purchased an 18-inch machete. Well, a machete with an 18-inch blade. And they found the label that had come off of that machete, but they had not – they did not find the machete. The machete has never been found. machete the machete has never been found but a machete did match what the coroner had determined was likely the weapon yeah used just because of the nature of the wounds and they were actually like they knew that a long blade had been used because along with the blood spatter there were

actually scrapes in the ceiling oh so like when he was going back, it was hitting the ceiling. We get it. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like, okay, so he used a machete to murder Doreen and her unborn child. Yeah. Mike denied having anything to do with Doreen's murder. Well, Mike, you got the coffins in the garage, buddy. Yeah. He said he had nothing to do with it.

He'd been at home with his mother that night. His mom lived in like a little apartment separate from his house on the same property. He said he'd been home with her. He'd had dinner. He'd handed out candy. And that was that. They asked him what Halloween costumes he'd worn in the last few years, if he ever dressed up in Halloween costumes.

And he had. He listed off a whole bunch of Halloween costumes that he'd worn. He didn't admit to a wolf one, did he? He did not admit to a wolf costume. Okay. So at this point, they have held Mike for 48 hours. Okay. And they determined they did not have enough evidence to charge him.

Are you kidding me? What? I agree. Hold on. Hold on. Okay. Okay. Are they feeling so guilty and weird about how they treated Charles that now that they have? I think it's possible. Because that's ridiculous. Yeah, they don't think they have enough hard evidence to hold him. So after 48 hours, he is released. And when he's released, he makes a statement to the public.

There's a bunch of reporters when he's released, and he says, this is so wild. I can't believe they think I would have anything to do with this. I didn't murder my ex-wife. I'm just a totally normal guy with two handmade coffins in his garage. Handmade coffins with body bags and weights and anchors.

And a map of the bay. Yeah. How much more innocent can you get? Yeah. And one coffin just happens to be Charles-sized and one happens to be Doreen-sized. So, yeah. So he is released after 48 hours. So the police are like, we've got to build a case against him so we can get this guy.

We can arrest him and be able to charge him this time. So with the help of a child psychologist, Deanna was interviewed about what she remembered from that night. So she's four. She was almost five when this happened, but she's four and she remembered some things. So she recalled that she and her mom were sitting on the couch watching TV after they'd come back from trick-or-treating. And that around 9 o'clock, there was a really loud knock on the front door. She said it wasn't a normal knock. Right. And that Doreen almost ignored it because she thought it was too late for

trick-or-treaters. Yeah. But Deanna was actually like, I want to hand out candy and, you know, whatever, and got excited. And so Deanna and Doreen got up and went to the door. And when they opened it, there was a man standing there with a big bad wolf mask on. At first, again, Deanna thought it was a trick-or-treater. But then the man said, I'm going to kill you. And she noticed in his hand was a machete. Oh, my gosh. Deanna said that she remembered her mom yelling at this person, telling them to get out of her house.

And then she yelled for Deanna to run and hide. Yeah. And so Deanna did. She found a hiding place behind the couch and she didn't come out. She said she remembered her mom yelling Michael at one point. And she remembered hearing screaming. And then, OK, I didn't find this in any sources other than the snapped episode. So I am not positive that this actually took place.

than the snapped episode so I am not positive that this actually took place okay but on the snapped episode they say that after Michael had attacked Doreen that he then walked through the house calling for Deanna and then when she couldn't find her he left okay but Deanna stayed in her hiding place not knowing if the man was still there. She stayed there until she heard her dad. That's incredible instincts. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure there's something to be said for being frozen in place.

Oh, I can't even imagine. No. No, no, no, no, no. Yeah. So they get this information from her. She connects the, you know, the wolf mask. She connects her mom saying Michael. She connects the machete.

But they still want more. This is just the account of a four-year-old. This is just the account of a four-year-old. And so detectives were able to connect that wolf mask to Michael Dennis. So during the warranted search of his home, they found like a little black book that had phone numbers of women in it. And so they just started calling women that were in this book. Okay. And they called one who was like yeah i know mike dennis yeah we went to um just by happenstance i have no idea how this came

up but she says that they went to a halloween party together last year okay and the detective was like great i mean do you do you remember what he dressed up as for halloween she's like yeah he was the big bad wolf and I was Red Riding Hood. Yep. He's like, oh, my gosh. OK, are there are there any pictures of this? Do you have any pictures of him in the Big Bad Wolf costume? Yeah.

And she's like, I do. And so she provides them. Holy shit. Yeah. Of Mike Dennis in the Big Bad Wolf mask that matches the exact one that was found at Doreen Herbert's house. Even with that, though, they're still like it's not quite enough. OK.

And so finally, lab results come back and show that there were two types of blood found at the scene. One was Doreen's and the other is a match to Mike Dennis. With that, they took him back into custody on November 5th. So. OK, they worked. They worked fast. They did.

So on November 5th, 1984, he was arrested and he was charged with the murder of Doreen Erbert with special circumstances for fetal murder, which made him eligible for the death penalty. Mike went to trial in July of 1988. So it took about four years for this to get to trial. And he denied his involvement in this all the way up to trial, said he had nothing to do with it. And then that story changed a little bit at trial, not a little bit. It changed completely at trial. At trial, the prosecution obviously presented all the stuff and we'll get into it a little bit. But the their case was that this guy, you know, blamed blamed Doreen for the death of his son, had not never been able to move past it, that this anger had just festered in him. they were going on and continuing on with this life and that he had made this plan to put them in coffins and dump them into the bay, but that he'd likely been triggered on

Halloween night by seeing little kids out trick-or-treating and had come up with this other plan instead. Instead, the defense did not contest that Mike Dennis had done this. They said he did. Yeah. But that it was – he was under – he had gone through a depressive episode before this and he basically had a mental break that resulted in this. So not guilty by reason of insanity. Essentially.

That's not actually what they – they don't – Oh, they don't say that. They don't say that specifically. But, yes, essentially that's what they argued. He was not in the right frame of mind when this happened. Yeah, I think that's the only thing you can agree. I agree. I agree. At trial, Deanna testified.

She was eight years old by that point. I hate it. I do too. Yeah. She testified about everything that she remembered. And she said that she didn't remember a lot. She didn't even, by that point, she didn't even remember trick-or-treating anymore. Yeah.

I can't even imagine how much your brain would block out to try and protect you from something this traumatic. Yeah. But she talked about, you know, her mom going to the door and finding the man there and the mask and then running to hide. A couple of friends of Mike Dennis's actually testified for the prosecution about his mask. They said that they had seen him wear that costume the year earlier and were able to clearly identify it. A couple of neighbors of the Erberts testified about seeing the man in the Big Bad Wolf mask just standing outside their house staring at it.

That would be so freaky. Yeah. One of them was like a 10-year-old kid at the time. He's like 14 now. Oh my gosh. He talks about seeing it. And he talked about somebody testified. I don't remember if it's the 14 year old or if it's dad. Somebody testified that they saw somebody in mechanics coveralls. Yeah. Like I'm thinking like Michael Myers mechanics coveralls. And then I'm thinking like spray painter coveralls. Well, yes. Yeah. Yeah yeah and then the mask on and he was holding a grocery

bag that had something clearly very heavy in it the machete okay so yeah there's like three or four people that testify about seeing this man in the wolf mask over different periods of that night some saw him like as early as like 6 30 that night standing outside. So it seems like he was like checking in and waiting, waiting for some waiting for an opportunity. And when Charles left. Yeah. I mean, it was such a tight window. If Charles was really gone for 15 minutes. Yeah, I mean, he would have had to.

But again, the liquor store and you stop at a friend's house, I feel like that's got to be more than 15 minutes. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter, no. But yeah, I mean, he had to have been lying in wait. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I might have used that term incorrectly, but I only went to the one semester of law school. I think that would be considered lying in wait. Hey, you didn't go to any semester of of law school. I think that would be considered

lying in wait. Hey, you didn't go to any semester of law school, so let's slow down here, okay? The medical examiner testified about the autopsy that he had done on Doreen and the fetus. It's horrible. I'm not going to tell you any of it. No, don't. I've heard too much already. It's horrible. tell you any of it. No, don't. I've heard too much already. It's horrible. And that's all I'm going to say. You act like you're really protecting us. You've already told us too much. There's so much more. No, don't. I'm not. I'm not going to tell you. There's just there's so much more. Yeah, it's horrible. It's gruesome. I don't want to tell you any of it. No, we already know. A friend of Mike's testified that he was just in general a quiet person like he always had been. But then after his son's death, he had become even more withdrawn and that they would describe the despair that Mike felt over his son's death as almost abnormal.

He said it was like he just couldn't, like, it was the whole focus of his life, essentially. Yeah. I mean, he needed help. Yeah, he really needed help. He needed a ton of help. And I don't know how you move on past that. Like, I truly don't. Yeah. I can understand that being the only thing that you think about. And I also understand needing to blame someone for it. Yeah. It makes it somehow easier to process if there's a face to put the blame to. Yeah.

Yeah. I can see that. I think also like, gosh, being deaf. Yeah. I can see that. I think also like, gosh, being deaf. Yeah. I feel like, you know, I don't know that we've come a huge long way, but I feel like there are all kinds of assumptions people make when you can't, you know, keep up with the conversation. They make assumptions about your intellect that are totally unfair. They even probably make assumptions about your social abilities, which when it's not a reflection of your social abilities, it's just that you literally cannot keep up with the conversation because you can't monitor everyone's lips. And if people are judging you for looking at their mouths,

well, goddamn, what are you supposed to do? So, yeah, you find a woman who you really click with and you think this is the solution. This is the solution. This is the answer. This is what I've been waiting for my whole life. Which is so sad because you wonder, like, if he'd gotten into therapy, maybe he could have seen that it's not just one person. God damn, this is sad.

It's so fucking sad. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not defending what he did in any way. I'm just saying. Oh, I am. No, no one is. No, yes.

Without some kind of intervention from a mental health professional. Right. I think there's a you can see a very clear path of how he got where he got. Yeah. Yeah. One of the Herbert's neighbors testified about Paul's death, how the circumstances around the drowning and how specifically. drowning and how specifically Mike was really upset with how Doreen had handled it when she found Paul in the pool. He really believed that if she had jumped in and gotten him, maybe he could have been saved. Instead, she ran and got a neighbor for help. I don't think anybody knows how they're going to react in a in a tragic scenario yeah like that yeah and it's tough it's really tough it's funny because when you described it you thought why didn't she jump in and get him yeah and but i mean not blaming no no no just like

i i was surprised that that was not the first step. And I think that's the thing. That's one of the main things that Mike latched onto that was convinced himself that this was what Doreen wanted. She wanted her son dead. No, it's just that we don't know how we're going to react to stuff. Exactly. And I think another layer of this is that following Paul's death, the Erberts did cut all ties with Mike. I mean, obviously, they had no connection to him anymore.

Yeah. But he had always been a part of their life up to that. Like, he'd come and play with Paul in their backyard. Right. And so it's like, I've also, I've lost my son and I've lost this connection to these other people as well. They've cut me off completely. Yeah. I just think that's another level, another layer to it.

Yeah. Gosh, shit. You also wonder about, like, okay, so the court system back then. And granted, I don't know the whole details of their situation. Yeah. But it seems like in more recent years there's been, thank God, a better push for joint custody. You know. Yes.

But for so long it just wasn't that way at all. It just wasn't. Yeah. Yes. But for so long, it just wasn't that way at all. It just wasn't. Yeah. And you also wonder how things might have been different if he'd had more time with his son on his own terms in his own house. Not to say that, you know, it would have made all the difference in the world.

But when in a case like this where it's all this stuff that all adds up. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So that's kind of the gist of the prosecution's case. Yeah. The defense case rested almost completely on testimony from psychiatrist Dr. Samuel Benson, who did five sessions with Mike Dennis leading up to this trial. Five whole sessions. Five whole sessions. Five whole sessions.

One of which was done under that truth serum drug, which I have the name of in here somewhere. Who knows? I'm not finding it right now. Yeah. You know that it's at a Kirkland Signature Vodka. Yes. That's the one. There it is right there.

And he talked a lot about all of these things that Mike had gone through in his life, like from a very young age, like having the hearing loss, which led to his speech impediment. He had a stutter because he couldn't hear properly and then he couldn't communicate with people very well. People thought he was staring at him all the time. He was trying to read their lips and his parents got divorced and he suffered an eating disorder from the trauma of his parents getting divorced and he became like an obese teenager and then he's now he's an obese teenager with a speech impediment and a hearing impairment and yeah and he fell into a deep depression yeah when he was like 19 or 20 he made an earnest attempt at suicide and was thankfully unsuccessful. Yeah.

Oh, gosh. Yeah. And through these five sessions, Mike did admit that he became obsessed with the idea of murdering Charles and Doreen. Yeah. He admitted to the whole scheme with the coffins and dumping them in the bay and all of that. Yeah. Dr. Benson testified about Mike's mental state at the time of the murder. Mm-hmm. Murders.

Yeah. And he said that he thought he had gone through a depressive episode leading to kind of a psychotic break. And that specifically his thing that he thought really demonstrated this was that Mike had very spotty memories of the event taking place. One thing that Dr. Benson testified to was that Mike swore he didn't know that Dorian was pregnant. How could you not know? And that had to add fuel to the fire, too, right? If he didn't know, then he there's this argument that he couldn't be tried for the fetal murder because it's it would be considered manslaughter, which would then mean that he no longer qualifies for the death penalty. Oh, I see.

Yeah. But. Oh, I see. Yeah. But. OK, so you you and I appreciate that you left out a lot of the autopsy stuff. Yes. But. Clearly, even if he walked in not knowing, He clearly found out. Yep. So what do we do with that? He said in these meetings with this psychiatrist that after Doreen answered the door, she turned her back to him and that's when he began the attack. It wasn't until she turned

around that he attacked her from the front that she began losing amniotic fluid that he realized she was pregnant. No. I don't buy it. No.

Especially with the thing her friends were saying about her being so pregnant that she was as, well, yeah, eight and a half months pregnant. Exactly, yeah. And you've been watching her all night. Yeah, that's right. So maybe it is possible you didn't know before that night, which I don't believe. This man in this mental state, he's watching this family regularly.

I would imagine so. He's keeping up with this family. Yeah. Yeah. I do believe that he went through a psychotic break. I believe all of that. Yeah. Yeah. I do. I do believe that he went through a psychotic break. I believe all of that. Sure. This is the thing I don't believe that he didn't know she was pregnant.

Yeah. The doctor stopped short of saying that Mike was insane at the time of these murders. He never said that. He said that he was in a depressive state and went through some kind of mental break. What? I'm not a doctor, so I don't know how you determine insanity,

but I think stopping... Well, there has to be legal criteria, right? Right, I'm sure there's legal criteria. I'm also not a lawyer, so I don't know what the legal criteria is. Why do we even have this podcast? So, I don't know. the legal criteria is. Why do we even have this podcast? So, I don't know. The fact that this expert for the defense stopped short of that, I mean, I think that probably played a big part in how the jury decided this case.

Okay. In addition to this expert testimony, I mean, that's the bulk of the defense's case. They also had a couple friends come up and talk about what a great guy he was. Okay. And then the jury got the case. It was a jury of nine men and three women or ten men and two women, depending on which source. Okay. All right.

Great. But they found him guilty of first degree moiter. I love it when you do that. First degree moiter. Of Doreen Erbert. I'm sorry. I just bumped my whole mic. And second degree murder for the fetal murder.

Then started the penalty phase. For the penalty phase, the prosecution's case was basically like, look at all the evidence in this. Like, look how terrible it is. Like, that's the aggravating factor. He had this whole other play on with the coffins, first of all. And then he came out and perpetrated this horribly brutal murder. Right. And the defense's mitigating circumstances were pretty weak. I mean they talked about his childhood difficulties.

And then they had his mom like show a bunch of pictures of him as a kid. Yeah. And then they played a recording of him with Paul, his son. See, I think the mitigating factors are pretty good here. I think the mitigating factors in this are huge. I agree. I think they're huge. Okay. So what happened?

He got the death penalty. Oh, I hate that. I hate it so much. This is a mentally ill man. Yep. Yep. This is a man who went through something horribly devastating. He already had lifelong issues with depression.

I just don't understand. It's no skin off anyone's ass to not kill someone, you know? Yep. Talking about the state, of course. Yes, I know what you meant. Yeah. In September of 1989, William Michael Dennis was sentenced to die in the gas chamber. He has appealed his sentence multiple times.

It has gone all the way to the California Supreme Court. But they have upheld his— That was the saddest Supreme Court we've ever done. They've upheld his conviction and sentence each time. What were his grounds for appeal? Do you know? There were a couple of ones. Ineffective counsel was one.

There were a couple things that he thought his counsel should have done better, including fighting to get jurors back that had been released because they didn't believe in the death penalty. Oh, OK. He thought his counsel should have fought harder for jurors that were released. He also argued that – this is a tough one. He argued that he was not actually guilty of fetal murder because fetal murder is described as murdering an unborn child. fetal murder is described as murdering an unborn child.

And because the fetus had been... In the process of being birthed. Expelled from Doreen's body, that that should have counted as a live person, which then would have qualified that death as a manslaughter rather than murder. Fetal murder cannot be considered manslaughter under California state law. Boy, dear God, that is a rough argument. It is a rough one. Imagine writing that legal brief. Yeah.

Ugh. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, that went nowhere. That did go nowhere. Okay. Yeah, I mean, I – there's some mention also of like there should have been a stronger fight for like an insanity defense, which I totally agree with. Yeah. Yeah.

To be clear, I don't think this man like doesn't deserve to be convicted. He absolutely does. Well, of course he does. I don't think he should, like, doesn't deserve to be convicted. He absolutely does. Well, of course he does. I don't think he should be on death row. Yeah. Giving the death penalty. Well, and like, OK, so I'm obviously anti-death penalty. I am anti-death penalty as well.

Oh, OK. Well, then never mind. Yes, I'm anti-death penalty. Well, then we're never going to be OK with it. No. Yeah, just I think it, gosh, it's rough. It's rough. It's real rough.

So he's still alive? Yeah, California has a moratorium on the death penalty. So it's not likely that he'll ever be put to death. He was held in San Quentin on death row. He's currently, I just looked this morning, he is actually currently being held in the California prison medical facility. So I'm not sure what that means. Probably where he needs to be. Yes.

Yep. Absolutely. Charles and Deanna were interviewed on this episode of Snap. Charles Erbert and Deanna Erbert. She's Deanna Scott now. And they say that for their own sake, they have forgiven Mike. Yeah. They said they have forgiven, but they can't forget,

and that they want him put to death. I get that. Yep. So do I. So do I. Charles said, I want him to know that we survived and that we're making it. He hasn't conquered us.

Charles said that after Doreen's death, he went through a really difficult period. He was like basically drinking himself to death. Yeah. And then he realized, like, I have a child that I am responsible for. And he pulled himself together. Deanna said she had a really tough childhood after this. Well, I'm sure. Charles became very protective of her.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting because then he finds out how close he was to death as well. Yeah. Yeah. Mike was interviewed for this article in the Lake County Record B that was talking about too many. I was talking about California's proposition to end the death penalty that was on the ballot. Sure. I think in like 2016 or something like that. And he said that he believes he will get his sentence overturned at some point.

He believes he will get his sentence overturned at some point. He believes that if people know what he went through, that they will see that he has no reason to be on death row. To be clear, he understands he's never getting out of prison, right? I believe so. Because that'd be nutso bananas, like slow down, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't want to kill you, but we— I believe his statement was about the death penalty specifically. Okay, all right.

No, he needs a lot of help. Yep. Yeah. Okay, now I'm going to tell you my asterisk about this snapped episode. Okay, you seem a little sassy all of a sudden. There is a huge error in this snapped episode. Like, who do I write to? I think this is nutso bananas. Write to Mr. Snapped. At the end of this episode, they say that Mike was arrested, charged with the murders,

and then midway through the trial, changed his plea and pled guilty to first degree murder of Doreen and second degree murder for the fetal murder. That is not what happened at all. I wonder how that error occurred. It's such an error. It's a huge error. Errors happen, Brandy. That's huge.

That's not at all what happened. He went to trial. He was convicted. Yes, he no longer at trial denied the killing he admitted that he played part in it that he that he did it yeah but that is not the same as changing your plea midway through the trial no i agree anyway i didn't like it because then a lot of sources just repeat what they saw on this Snapped episode. Sure. Anyway, I'm pretty pissed at Snapped right now. Did you get that? Not at all.

You were pretty subtle. Add a little comment onto the story, right? Or email them? Yeah. Yeah, I am. I'm going to be reaching out to the good people at Snap. You won't. I will.

You'll just be fussy on this podcast. You might be right. Yeah, I'm definitely right. I'm going to write Snap to strongly worded email. Maybe. You don't think I'm going to do, snapped a strongly worded email. Maybe. You don't think I'm going to do it? Not at all. You don't think there's a chance?

Now I'm going to do it just because you said that. Good. Okay. Good. All right. And that is the story of the big bad wolf and the murder of Deanna Erbert and her unborn child. That was very well told. I

really like stories like this where it's not just a murder. To hear what someone is going through and leading up to these events,

that is interesting to me because it makes you wonder about where there could have been some kind of intervention. And I also. OK, so the child's name was Deanna. Deanna, yes. I also really hope she wasn't literally called to testify at trial i really hope that she was like in a separate room with a child psychologist so as well i mean i know i just worry about re-traumatizing absolutely

okay yeah she did say on the snapped episode that, she knows that her mom would not want her to dwell on this. I'm not listening to a thing about Snapped. This came directly from her mouth. Okay. All right. All right. We'll trust it. She knows that her mom would not want her to dwell on this. She would want her to move on with her life and have a happy life in her honor and... Of course. Of course.

But this is some dramatic fucking shit yeah i don't like i don't know how you move on from any of this shit i don't know how you move on from losing your son drowning in the pool i don't know how you move on from hiding behind a couch while your mom is brutally murdered i don't know how you move on from coming home to find your wife brutally murdered. And you're taken into custody, sitting naked in an interrogation room when you find out that she's dead. Technically, he was not naked. He did have a paper gown. Okay, I'm sorry.

When you're sitting in the gynecologist's office in the paper gown, you don't feel like you're sitting there naked? No. Are you for real right now? Yeah, I'm for real. If I'm wearing a gown, it's not the same as me being completely nude. I feel like it's exactly the same. There's no difference to me at all. No difference?

Nope. Okay, so you could take it off? You feel like you might as well just take it off? It's the same thing? Ooh, that's an interesting point. Well, of course, because it's not the same. It's pretty close. Here's a question.

With those Roby things, I know technically you're supposed to let them open in the back. No, no, no. At the guy in a college's office, it has to open in the front because they've got to get to your titties. Well, that's true. But in other settings. Yes, you put them in the back, yeah. But I hate that. Yeah.

You'd rather have the front open? Yeah, so that I can keep it closed. Oh, yeah. You don't have the control over the back. Yeah. I've told the story about my bare butt after my surgery. Yeah. I do recall. You know, when Casey had her open heart surgery, she was in the, I mean, hospital for like a week afterward. Sure. And she would have to do like these walks each day. And so she'd get to put

one on the back backwards so that she had a front robe and a back robe so that she, you know, fully covered. Yes. Why couldn't they have done that for me? Exactly. Do me a solid. Right. Yes.

Everyone, the story of me. When I had my fun cyst surgery that turned into oopsies, we're also taking a fallopian tube and, you know, digging around while we're in there. Seeing what else we like. Yeah. So I was obviously knocked the fudge out for that. You know, God knows how many people were eating popcorn watching that surgery go down. You know, there were quite a few people in the room, I think.

I don't think they probably let popcorn in there. You think just junior mints. I think they probably let popcorn in there. You think just junior mints. So afterward, they want you to pee. Yeah. To make sure, I guess they didn't twist up your. Yeah.

Urethra. Yeah. Thank you. Really, probably your ureter is what they're more worried about. Because I think by the, I don't think they're getting close to your urethra. Well, probably probably not at all. But you know, I guess just in case. Yeah. And so yeah, after showing all my goods to anyone who was there not feeling a damn thing. I had to walk down a hallway with that little robe on and your cheeks out. Yeah, I asked the nurse to cover my butt because I didn't want people to see my butt. And she kind of giggled.

Yeah. I think because she'd just seen my whole vagina for an hour. Yeah. Yeah. You're fully nude in that surgery room. That's true. Yeah. That's true.

I did have a sexy little mushroom cap on. Yeah. The little hairnet. I did have a sexy little mushroom cap on. Yeah. The little hair net. I assume. Did I tell you that I wore underwear to my thyroid surgery? You're supposed to be fully nude. You lunatic. Hold on.

I wore underwear. Hold on. Back up. Back up. Okay. So they tell you, okay, please disrobe. Disrobe. Take everything off.

And I said, can I please leave my underwear on? And they said, we don't recommend it because there is a chance that you could urinate during the surgery. And I said, that's fine. I love peeing in my underwear. That's totally fine. I will get new underwear afterward if I need to. I said I would just be much more comfortable if I had my underwear on. Yeah.

And they said, that's fine. My surgery was on my neck, so. Sure. Sure. Yeah. I wonder if anybody had asked that before. I mean, surely you're not the first never nude to get thyroid surgery. Did you wear makeup to your surgery?

I did not. Okay. No, that was against the rules because they were, you know, in this general area, throat area. I couldn't have any, no, couldn't put lotions or anything on that day. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. Very good. Well, I'm glad we've had this discussion. And on that note, I think we should do an ad. I think we should. Doodaloo! Why did I do it by myself?

Because I was busy looking at my screen. But you did a great job. What do I think we should do right now? First of all, we should doodaloo. Doodaloo! You know what I think we should do right now? Take some questions from our Discord? Yes.

But. But. But. But wait, there's more. Big butts. You gotta call Norman here. He asked for the questions, and there's a bunch of questions for him, I believe. All right.

Oh, everyone, it's gonna be chaos in here. The dogs are in here now. Well, the dogs are here. Norm is here. Norm asked the Discord for questions and compliments for himself. Yes. And now people are just asking

him a bunch of questions. And giving you endless compliments. Patty Bleep That says, sexiest corpse there ever was. Wow. I was not expecting compliments. Even though you did ask for them. Yeah, but as a joke, I think I actually get compliments. I was browsing through them, and my favorite is definitely that a dog was named after me.

Oh, that's awesome, and that dog is so cute. And Norman is a great name for a dog. Yes. Terrible name for a man. Wait a minute. It is. Terrible name for a man. Wait a minute. Ooh, Carrie Chu wants to know, what's it like having DP and Sharae Ray as in-laws? Ooh. Okay. Tell us all about it, Norm. DP and Sharae Ray are fantastic in-laws. I bet they would be really good. They are very lovey. in-laws. I bet they would be really good. They are very lovey. They're very sweet.

And are they too much? No, no, they're not. They're just they're wonderful. You know, it really does feel like I have like another set of parents. Yeah, it's wonderful. Yeah, it's a good feeling. That's so sweet. That's how I felt growing up with them, too. They were like another set of parents. Aww. Yeah. Those two. Everyone, Norm went on a date with my dad yesterday to Pepper Jack's for lunch. Pepper Jack's Grill. That's right. They both love getting cheesesteaks, and my mom and I don't really like going there,

so they go on little dates and talk football for two hours. I think their meat is really dry. I also don't like Pepper Jack's. Do you put Spicy ranch on your... Obviously, I do not, Norm. You know, I don't do sauces. You don't? No, I don't like sauces.

You like barbecue sauce. I do like barbecue sauce. You're right. She's a complicated woman. I'm poking holes in your... Uh-huh. Ooh. Brandy's butthole chiropractor wants to know,

Hi, Mr. Kristen Caruso. Are they holding you hostage in the sex dungeon? I mean, we are right now, actually. I mean, basically. Door's closed. The dogs are guarding the door. They are. I can't get out.

Ooh, Forever Nude wants to know, Any upcoming guest appearances? Norm, a return of the DP, perhaps? Norm, you want to come on the show? Anytime. Ooh. Okay. Alright. Okay. Maybe we'll have this boy on. Yeah.

Ooh, Ding Dang Diddle wants to know, uh, what's your favorite Halloween costume you've ever done? What's yours, Norm? I know Chris and I have talked about ours before on the show. What's your favorite costume you've ever done? What's yours, Norm? I know Chris and I have talked about ours before on the show. What's your favorite costume you've ever worn? Gosh. Did you get into Halloween as a kid?

I don't really remember Halloween that well. Really? Yeah. Well, I mean. Okay. But how old were you when you moved back to the United States? I was. Or moved to the United States because you weren't born in the United States.

No. So we moved to the U.S States? I was... Or moved to the United States because you weren't born in the United States. No. So we moved to the U.S. when I was three. Okay. And then we moved away again. Yeah. And we came back to the U.S. when I was eight. Okay. I stopped trick-or-treating.

I feel like I just dressed as like a vampire or something every year. And then... Because we had fake vampire teeth. Yeah. My mom had like a bucket full of like costumes and stuff. And we could just like pick one out. Do you think other people put those vampire teeth in there?

My brother and sister did. A hundred percent. My brother and sister did. But I remember, I think I was like 10 and I went trick-or-treating. Maybe I was a little older. And a kid answered the door. And after that Halloween I never went to her treatment again.

I was so embarrassed that a little kid answered the door. You also had siblings like who were four years older than you and two years older than you. So it's like you were probably under the influence of Yeah, the older sibs.

Yeah, they would go to like parties and stuff. And little Normie would sit alone with his old vampire teeth that had been handed down to him. That's right. I just, I can't. They probably smelled weird. Yeah, I definitely smelled them. Dried saliva inside of them. I smelled them before I put them in my mouth.

Of course you did. Oh, Frozen Like a Grape has a question specifically for you, Norm. Why is Kristen your favorite person ever in the world? Give her all the compliments. Oh, shit. Wait a minute. Where did you hear that Kristen? Wow.

Wow. No, she is my favorite person in the world because she makes me laugh and she's very, very sweet. And she's gorgeous. And she's got whoopee cushion tits. Yeah. When you touch her boobs, they make a fart noise. They're beautiful and they're fun. What more could a person want? I've said before that

Kristen is my best friend. It's pretty easy being married to your best friend, I gotta tell you. Especially when your best friend is easy. Oh! Lake Taco Fur Trader says compliment for Norm.

You have the best wife and share your birthday with an amazing woman. You are very lucky. Wow. Wow. You're right. I'm the luckiest man in the world. Norm, tell the story of how you got all mad at the bar a couple weeks ago. Yeah.

At the bar? You were mean mugging someone to defend our honor. Yes. Oh, we were out to lunch before a recording. At a bar and grill. At a little- Not Chili's, unfortunately. It was not Chili's.

It's a little dive bar. Yeah. And it's kind of a small establishment. And we were eating lunch. Yeah, it's a literal hole in the wall. Like, yeah. It's great, though. Yeah.

Like when they empty the fryer, they carry the old grease through the bar. That's how small this place is. It's wonderful. But a few tables down, Brandy, Chris, and I were having lunch. And a few tables down, there's a dude just sitting there alone with a beer, and he was just, like, staring nonstop at Kristen and Brandy. I saw it out of the side of my eye, and so I was like, all right, this guy is really weird. So I just started staring back at him. Meanwhile, Kristen and I had no idea this was going on.

All I knew was Norm seemed mad for some reason. Yes. I do remember thinking Norm was really quiet during that lunch. And it was because he was mean mugging some dude. We had no idea. Yeah. And whenever he made eye contact with me, he quickly, you know, did the, oh, oh, and went back to his beer and watching whatever baseball game was on. But, yeah, it was weird.

I didn't like that. Yeah. Thanks for mean mugging in our honor. Yeah. How dare you look at these women. Yeah. Yeah. We tried to convince the waitress today that we were a thruple.

We're a thruple, yeah. She didn't buy it. We also didn't say it. We were just trying to give off thruple vibes. Which is how Norm and I made out at lunch today. The waitress just wasn't convincing.

She was like, I don't buy it. Whip your top off. And Brady was like, I won't. I will not. No way. Rage of Innocence says, Dear Norm, we love you. Also, since we've come upon holiday season, which holiday is your favorite? My favorite holiday is probably Thanksgiving. Because it's a food holiday.

Several reasons. Slow down. You don't know this man. One, food. Yeah. Two, family and friends. Yeah. Three, you don't have to go out and buy a bunch of decorations.

Yeah, no gifts. There's not like, yeah, there's just food prep. There's not other prep. Yeah. It's a real good vibe and I like that. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah.

Also the least surprising answer ever. Exactly. Yes. Okay, that might be it for our Normie questions. Yeah. That's a good one. Yeah. Also the least surprising answer. Exactly. Yes. Okay. That might be it for our Normie questions. Yeah. Thank you for coming in here. Hey, thanks for having me.

Gross. We're making out live. Gross. Randy, join us. No, thank you. All right, ladies. Thanks, Norm. Thank you for having me. Do you want to make ghost noises? Oh, ladies. Thanks, Norm. Thank you for having me. Do you want to make ghost noises?

Oh, God. What's happening to that ghost? Is that an orgasming ghost? I'm going to go. I'm going to go. Bowl. Bowl. Ooh, Libzy says, Brandy, do you still bowl?

I miss your bowling updates. I actually haven't bowled in a really long time. Oh, yeah, you haven't. You used to bowl every Wednesday. Yeah, I retired from league like a year ago, maybe longer now, because it just got too hard with the schedule and London getting older. Because when she was little, we would literally take her pack and play and she would just like play in it while we bowled.

Yeah. You know, she's a little big for that now. So, yeah. So you're saying your child ruined your bowling. No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there are many reasons that I decided I could no longer commit to a league. But I do still enjoy bowling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. How about you? You bowled any time recently, Kristen? I actually took over Brandi's place in the league. And I'm actually a better bowler than she ever was, they say. So it's all worked out great for everybody. Can you imagine how hard you would lose your mind

if I took your spot in the bowling league and I was better than you? That would be rough for me. Realistically, what would you do? I would be devastated. You'd come out of retirement.

I would! Like, I gotta get better! Yeah. But there's just no way. I'm the best bowler in the biz. Okay, this is an excellent question that nobody cares about except for me. Okay.

Spooky Glitter wants to know, do you prefer cheap hot dogs or all beef? I prefer the $1 pack made of animal spare parts and my husband thinks I'm crazy. I am the exact same way. I like the cheap. Specifically, my favorite are the Bar S hot dogs. They are the cheapest hot dogs you can buy at the grocery store. Bar S? Yes.

I fucking love them. I don't like all beef hot dogs. So the Nathan's high quality hot dogs? Don't like them. Get those out of here. Get those out of here. Bring those ones that are made out of animal sawdust. Can you spell bar S?

Bar S. B-A-R-S. So bars. No. Bar S. I think it's supposed to be like the name of a ranch. Oh. Because it's like with a branding.

A ranch with just animal parts. Cool. What about you? You don't like hot dogs at all, do you? No. But I mean, if I'm forced, I'm going to go for the higher end stuff because I'm classy. Okay. All right.

All right. Also great at bowling. Oh, no. What? Cap in Kristen's butthole. That's not a question. But when I went to listen to today's episode, I didn't know my Bluetooth wasn't on. And my phone very loudly said, sniff my butthole in an open plan office.

And so you looked around and you said, my God, who said that? Where did that come from? Disgusting. I will not. What? Okay, should we do one more, I think? Who said that? Where did that come from? Disgusting. I will not. Okay, should we do one more, you think? Yeah, you got a good one? Well, I've got one.

I've kind of already covered it before, but let's hit it again. This is from Emily MM. It says, question for Kristen. I'm 25 years old and just got diagnosed with ADHD this morning. Oh, it's hot and fresh. I'm feeling every emotion under the sun and was wondering if you'd be willing to talk about how you coped with receiving your diagnosis as an adult. No. That'd be horrible. And what has your experience with meds been?

Okay, so I definitely relate to feeling every emotion under the sun. I definitely relate to feeling every emotion under the sun. Yeah, there's like relief, but there's also anger and sadness. Yeah. Like, I think especially when I got on medication and I realized, oh, this is what other people get. It's not, you know, the constant voice going, you're not good enough. You're not doing this. You should also be doing this.

And to know that I could have gotten diagnosed a lot. I just wish that it had been caught. But it's often not caught with girls. Is that an ADHD symptom? What? The voices? Yeah. Yeah. The constant feeling like you're not doing enough.

You're failing. You're. Brandy, I tried to tell you you have ADHD when I got diagnosed and you didn't want to hear it. So I didn't say it. I can't even remember what I saw in the discord today, but it was a meme and it was like something. And I was like, that's a fucking ADHD symptom. Oh, this is what it was. Decision paralysis is so funny. I'm like, do I want pizza for lunch or a burrito? And my brain is like, was. Decision paralysis is so funny.

I'm like, do I want pizza for lunch or a burrito? And my brain is like, actually, I'd rather starve to death. Yeah. I do that all the fucking time. I'm sure you do. And I'm sure if you looked into this, you might find more stuff. Sorry, this is not about me. Please continue.

No, I make it about you because it's so much better now that I've been diagnosed. Yeah. Now, granted, it's really hard to get medication because of the shortage and stuff. But medication has made such a huge difference for me. Yeah. Just being able to kind of focus on what matters a bit more. And it's funny. I think people get really worried about medication.

Like, oh, it's going to change me. Oh, no. You're telling me that people don't have that inner monologue telling them that they're not doing enough. Constantly. That's what I'm saying. Like, for me, it was this constant. Yes. Like, I.

You're blowing my mind right now, Kristen. Brandy, I have told you this before. But weirdly. Not this specific thing. Yes, I have. Yes, I have. It's this specific thing that is like, holy shit. Yes.

Like my whole life, it was like this constant, you're not doing the right thing. You should be doing this other thing. Yeah. And then you like sit there paralyzed, not doing anything. Yes. So, for me, like, we're heading into Obsessed Fest. Yeah. And there's stuff we've got to do to prep for it and blah, blah, blah.

And, like, so, you know, even with medication, it's not perfect. Yeah, of course. So, like, there's the freak out and there's the trying to do stuff. And, yeah, I have two modes. I have working on stuff. Yeah. Or lying flat on my bed, feeling dread. Yeah.

Doing nothing, feeling total dread because I can't half-ass something. Right. Which, I mean, I think that's the trick to life is like, no, you half-assing is better than no-assing. Now, why is that not on a bumper sticker? But, yeah, I really recommend like looking it up, especially if you're a woman, because like the symptoms present so differently in girls that it gets massive. And they didn't even used to like test girls for it at all. Like they were like, this only happens to boys. Well, and women are a lot better at masking.

Yes. Because so much of so many ADHD symptoms partly are like just totally socially unacceptable for a woman. So you just don't do that stuff. woman. So you just don't do that stuff. But yeah. If any of this sounds like you, I recommend speaking to your physician. Boy.

Brandy, I love, love, love, love that we have 100% conversation. I know that we have had a conversation about you. You've been like, you have a lot of the symptoms. You display a lot of the... That is the first time I remember hearing that specific one. And I had never heard the decision paralysis thing until I saw that meme today. And I was like, I do that so often. I can't decide on any of these things to eat. So I'm just not going to eat anything. Yeah.

It's been really bad for me this week. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. Yeah. Like weirdly bad. Like I just, I have everything in my fridge memorized.

I know exactly what's in there. Yeah. Because I have looked at it all so much and thought, this is all disgusting. Yes! I don't want any of this! Even though I'm the one who bought all of it. Bought everything in there? Yeah.

Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so anyway. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. How you feeling, Brady?

Mm, all right. Thinking about things? This is replaying my entire life in my head right now. Yeah. For real. Should we move on to some Supreme Court inductions? We shall. To get inducted on this podcast, all you have to do is sign up at the $7 level or higher,

and you give us your name, a little pronunciation help, and you tell us the name of your first celebrity crush. Michael Johansson. Leah Lale in heavyweights. Ooh. Mm. Rachel Smith. Brandon Lee from The Crow.

Jennifer Thomas. Jordan Knight. Claire Leonardi. Ooh, Claire says new last name, just married. Congratulations, Claire. And River Phoenix stole her heart. But Mr. Leonardi. Yeah.

Or Mrs. Leonardi. We don't know. We don't know. How dare you assume, Brandon? That was your voice. That was your voice. Tilly Stultz. Zac Efron.

Val. Eric Von Deaton. Stephanie. Bruce Willis. Zac Efron. Val. Eric Von Deaton. Stephanie. Bruce Willis. Heather Stafford. Robbie Sinclair, a.k.a. the teenage son in Dinosaurs. He wore that fucking letter jacket, and he had kind of like slicked back scales. He was hot.

He was hot. Undeniably hot. You cannot deny it. Katie Garino. JTT. Allie. Not a celebrity crush, but Matt Hart is my crush. Mostly just wants you to say his name so he feels cool.

Matt Hart is kind of a celebrity name, though. It is. What does Matt Hart do? I mean, it seems like his face should have been on the cover of 16 Magazine. Yes. Was it? 17 was the name of the magazine. No, no, but what was like

the off j14 what j14 was like the team beat okay that's yeah that's what i'm going for where yeah matt hart i'm sorry you don't get your whole damn face you know blown up on the cover it's like you and a bunch of other yeah you're in a corner yeah so just you you know, stay humble, Matt. Sit down. We know. Benjamin. I'm just making up names now. Benjamin, that's not on here anywhere. Bradley.

Bradley Miller. Bradley, I'm so sorry. Matthew Broderick. Emily Slater Gardner. Michelangelo, the Ninja Turtle. I used to love the Ninja Turtles cartoon show. I loved it. Yeah, I did too.

Master Splinter. Those fucking cheap things. I don't know what those things are called. They actually don't have a name. They just have a song. Lisa Chirinos. Usher. Oh, you're allowed to do that, but I can't say it's a Kendrick Lamar song. Yeah, we don't have time for outbursts.

You're unmedicated ADHD. Also undiagnosed. Undiagnosed, yeah. Welcome to the Supreme Court. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Very sorry. Very sorry. The Supreme Court. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wow. Very sorry. Very sorry.

Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and then head on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a five-star rating and review. Then be sure to join us next week. When I'll be an expert on a whole new topic. Podcast.

Podcast adjourned. I almost said podcast. You know, a whole new podcast. You're going to be on a different podcast next week? Yeah, fuck this one. I'm moving on. Baby. And I'm going to present a case, so it doesn't matter what their format is.

I'm just going to take over for an hour and a half. Now you say it. Now for a note about our process. I am scrolling down to that part, ma'am. And now for a note about our process. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. I got my info from an episode of Snapped.

Or Sna-ood. According to these notes. Everyone, here's how she spelled Snapped. S-N-A-O-O-E-D. Sna-ood. You know what? Maybe that's why there was an error at the end of that episode. It wasn't snapped.

I watched bootlegs. Snowed. Instead of snapped. Anyway, an episode of Snapped Asterisk. A piece by Mara Boveson for the New York Daily News, UPI, Oxygen.com, and The Court Record. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcootcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff.