Let's Go To Court! - 28: The Kidnapping of America’s Best Businesswoman & the Murder of Lisa Techel

Episode Date: August 8, 2018

By the early 1930’s, Nell Donnelly had it all. Women everywhere loved Nell Donnelly’s stylish, well-made, and inexpensive dresses. But she didn’t just make great dresses. She made a great work environment, too. Unlike a lot of factory owners at the time, Nell paid well. She offered her employees medical care and a pension plan. She even paid for them to go to school. Nell’s hard work paid off. Fortune Magazine called her possibly the most successful businesswoman in America. She was rich, stylish and classy. But she was also a target. On December 16, 1931, Nell and her chauffeur, George, were kidnapped and driven to a nasty old cabin. The eventual trials of Nell’s kidnappers captured the nation’s attention and involved some of Kansas City’s most prominent citizens. Then Brandi frustrates the hell out of us with the story of Lisa Techel’s murder. When Lisa was discovered shot to death in her Iowa home, everyone knew exactly who’d done it — her neighbor. The man had a bad history with Lisa and her husband Seth. Police were sure they had their guy. But when they went to question him, he wasn’t quite the cold-blooded murderer they expected him to be. Hold on tight, folks. This one has so many twists and turns that it could be a two-hour episode of Dateline. Oh, wait. It is. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The book, “James A. Reed: Legendary Lawyer; Marplot in the United States Senate,” by Michael Cronan The book, “Called to Courage: Four Women in Missouri History,” by Heather Roberson and Margot McMillen The book, “The Devil’s Tickets: A Vengeful Wife, a Fatal Hand, and a New American Age,” by Gary M. Pomerantz “Strange bedfellows,” KChistory.org “Nell Donnelly Reed, 102, Pioneer In Manufacture of Women’s Attire,” New York Times In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Before Dawn” Dateline ep. “Techel Trial: Opening Arguments Heard” by Stephanie Moore, whotv.com “Court upholds man’s conviction in slaying of pregnant wife” by Ryan J. Foley, Associated Press

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the time the most successful businesswoman in America was abducted. And I'll be talking about the murder of Lisa Teckel.

Okay, Brandi, let's do this. You said that we were too businesslike yeah last episode last episode it was like let's stick to the fucking court cases let's not venture off at all like we just like wham bam thank you ma'am that episode and well it was let's go to court after dark that's correct apparently that's how we do it after dark. So let's shake it out. Let's loosen it up a little bit. Let's get a little fun and crazy.

You guys, Brandy is in full shimmy right now. What do you want? You want to talk about your feelings? No. No? No. Oh, you want to get straight to business? I mean, yeah, but like, you know. have a little fun with it loose service hold on loosely kristen don't let go you're gonna go flying on this one lady because it's loose and it's local oh yes and old-timey excellent

i'm kind of on a theme. I was inspired by your kidnapping thing. Yeah. See, this is what happens, folks. Okay. If you've never researched for a podcast before, what happens is you just get these like little breadcrumbs along the way and you have to follow them. And then you're in another case and you're like, well, how could I possibly not talk about this one? Yeah, that is exactly what happened yes i was researching for last well yeah we

recorded on monday two days ago i was reaching researching monday night yeah and then we recorded the episode monday night so i hope you're researching um monday late afternoon and then there was like and of course we all know about this case. And I was like, no, we all don't. We all do not. But I am very intrigued. I'm so excited. There are two books that I pulled very heavily from.

Excellent. And I'm debating whether to say their names because one of the titles kind of gives a bit away why don't you wait until the end okay i'll wait until the end even though i feel kind of bad because i mean you if you want to cite the author's names right now and then you can name the title all right sorry weird for an author to say you know what i was thinking that today? I was like, man, I didn't include the author's names in the end credits. And I thought, I'm going to be pissed one day when that happens to me.

Okay, you ready for this? I am. Let's talk about legendary Kansas City businesswoman Nell Donnelly. Have you heard of her? No. I hadn't either. Tell me what legendary business she's from. I will tell you in a momentita. Oh, okay.

I'll keep my pants on. Hold on to them loosely. So Nell was born in 1889. She was super smart and super stylish. She got married when she was 17, then went to Lindenwood College in St. Charles, Missouri. St. Charles is a suburb of St. Louis? That was a question mark at the end.

And I have no periods. Thank you. Sorry, that was a weird way of saying it. Is that how you tell us you're pregnant? This is the announcement. Weird pregnancy announcement. Or that you're

post-menopausal. That would be such a great pregnancy announcement if it was just like a card that had like an exclamation point on it. And sorry out of periods. Oh I like it. Okay. I like it. Trademark that for me. All right, yeah.

So she went to college somewhere. Copyright 2018. I think that's all you have to say. That's all you have to do. You don't have to hire a lawyer or anything. No. So while she was there, she got more and more annoyed with the fact that when she would eventually leave college and most likely become a homemaker, she'd be stuck wearing these hideous house dresses that everyone wore in the early 1900s.

They were like these low-quality, shapeless boxes. Nasty looking. They usually cost like 67 cents. Adjusted for inflation! Roughly 15 bucks, which was more than i was expecting yeah so but that's just kind of the only option women had at the time the mindset was well i'm just at home i'm cleaning watching the kids why do i need a cinched in waistline are you gonna tell you about the invented yoga pants no save that for next week so nell thought differently yes she was like i don't care if i'm home alone i'm not wearing that shit so she started making her own dresses they were

flattering but not skin tight yeah they were long enough to cover your knees and they were kind of pleated so you could move around in them they were nice i love it pretty soon she started making them for her sisters and her friends and people loved these dresses sorry was the eye contact weird you made the weirdest eye contact as you were opening that coke which is already open it wasn't open all the way i'm guessing because you're trying to do it politely and not stick your finger in it yeah yeah which i appreciate even though my fingers are nicely manicured anyone would be happy to have them swirled around in their diet coke i sorry. Can we do a tangent real fast?

I think we have to because we've dedicated this to being a very loose episode. Okay, so I actually have had this question in mind. I was going to ask you at lunch today about it. Okay. But I guess we'll just do it on the podcast. Let's go ahead. Okay. So I've been watching a lot of The Twilight Zone. Love The Twilight Zone.

Just discovered that like four seasons of the original episodes are on Netflix. Gotcha. I've just been like watching them when I have the TV to myself because i'm not a big fan of twilight so i've never been a big fan um so on this episode that i just watched this guy like crash lands on a planet and it turns out you know it's a lot like earth and they give him this apartment or whatever and so he's in there and he's at the bar and he's fixing himself a drink and he makes um whiskey okay and he pours it in the glass and he puts some ice in there and he swirls it around with his finger uh-huh and then he dabs the whiskey that's on his finger

behind his ears really and so my question for you is as a whiskey drinker what the fuck was he doing i had no idea you drink whiskey you're my whiskey. I feel like that's like, okay, I heard that women back in the day used to like dab vanilla. Yeah. And I feel like that's like if you are hard up for perfume or cologne, then you'll do that. But even then, I don't know why you'd want to smell like alcohol. I don't either. I feel like people try to mask alcohol. Yeah, typically.

All right. Well, this has been no help. Thank you for nothing. You know what I'm going to try to mask alcohol. Yeah, typically. All right. Well, this has been no help. Thank you for nothing. You know what I'm going to do at lunch today. I'm going to order whiskey and then just douse myself. And then I'm going to smell great. Wonderful. Okay.

Okay. Back to the, she's making house dresses now that are form fitting, flattering, easy to do housework in. She's making them for her friends and her sister and you got it okay they were like no these should be in department stores you could sell these she's like you guys i'm a woman and it's 1916 but she decides to give it a try she's living in kansas city so she goes to some local stores, and sure enough, no one had anything like what she was selling. There were basically two options.

You could get super nice, fancy stuff. Yeah. Or the butt-ugly, terrible stuff. So she summons her courage, and she goes to, are you ready? Yeah. 1044 Main Street, KC Moe. Which was the location of the George B. Peck... I mean, can you slow down?

Well, I figure you can look it up, right? Oh, everybody, like... I mean, this is just a couple blocks up from where the Midland is now. Yeah. Sorry, everyone who's, like, in a car right now or on a treadmill. Brandy needs to look it up. It's now a bank. Okay.

Moe bank. Moe bank. Where you can put your Moe dollars. That's their slogan, I think. Is it really? Oh, God. Did you see my face? I was like, oh, God, they're going to be out of business in no time.

So that was the location of the George B. Peck Dry Goods Company, which is a terrible name for a store. Rolls right off the top. Yeah. Oh, my God. And do you know how hard it is to not say Gregory Peck when it's George B. Peck? Anyway, oddly enough, they did sell women's clothing. So she talks to someone there, and they're like're like yeah we'll take some of your dresses in fact we'll take a bunch of them so she runs back to her husband paul and she's like let's do this let's start a dress making company

and paul is like okay and he doesn't quit his day job but they pool their money they get all the stuff they need they hire some seamstresses and they make like 216 dresses wow they take them to the george b peck dry goods company and even though uh they were a whole dollar a piece compared to wow what people were used to spending they sold like crazy women wanted to not look like shit yeah so nell and paul were thrilled they opened a factory at the corner of 29th street and brooklyn avenue um which is not there anymore 29th and brooklyn no longer exists it's just gone no the factory is not there anymore it's very lame but it doesn't matter because the place was too small. And these dresses were selling like crazy.

So they moved into a much bigger factory at 1828 Walnut in KC Moe. Ooh, I know where that is. That's by the Sprint Center. It took up an entire city block. And I believe it was the former location of a Coca-Cola factory. They might have moved around a little bit i don't know you see it yep got it pretty cool huh yeah it's got beautiful windows excellent okay is everybody following along on their kansas city maps

wouldn't it be great like you know there have got to be some people who are listening to this like do these people not know that they're making a podcast where people tend to not just be at a computer? Or where people maybe don't want to do their own homework? Really, folks, we're doing this for ourselves. Which is funny because I feel like we would have these conversations. It's just now we put mics in front of us. That's exactly it. Okay, so things are going great.

Paul quit his job. I think he sold shoes or like he was high up in a shoe company. And he becomes president of the Donnelly Garment Company. And Nell was the secretary treasurer. Those titles were total bullshit. Yeah, you're looking at me like that's horrible. Yeah. It is horrible.

Because Paul did the financials, but everyone knew that Nell did all of it. Fucking started the company. She designed the clothes. She studied the market. She hired and fired. She did everything. People knew it and people loved her for it okay

here's another cool thing about now so now was a size 16 and she'd always been annoyed that cute clothes didn't come in her size yeah and when they did they wouldn't fit they weren't yeah so what she did based on her own experience was she had sample sizes made in every single size. And then she'd ask women who were that actual size to come in and try them on. That's amazing. Yes. Yes. I mean, it was huge.

And it was more expensive to do it that way. But, like, she would find women who were the size and, like, the age of the woman she imagined would want to buy that garment. So her idea was, I want to make these not crazy expensive. And since they're house dresses, I know that no one's going to want to pay to get alterations. So these need to fit really well right when the woman buys it. Very cool. So these dresses were really high quality, made with a lot of care.

But Nell didn't just care about the dresses. She cared about her workers, too. Here's the thing. A few years earlier in 1911, there had been this horrible fire at a factory in New York. I think I've heard something about that. Yes, it was called the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire. And Nell was very affected by that. In her mind, those 146 people, mostly girls and women,

died horrible deaths due to bad working conditions. Yes. If you'd like to know more, please visit episode... Why didn't I look that up? up 24 it's the one that has triangle shirtwaist factory fire in the title thank you i think it's episode 24 thanks pretty so nell decided to be different she paid good wages might be episode 25 this is really not important i'll cut this so now i wanted to be right i think actually you'll probably just leave it in there and it'll just be you saying i'll cut this and you don't cut it i do that a lot

so now i wanted to be totally different from the vast majority of business owners at the time. She paid good wages. She gave her workers a safe working environment. She offered access to medical care. I think she started a pension program for them. That's amazing. She paid for her employees to go to night school. She paid for her employees' children to go to nearby colleges.

Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Unheard of at that time. Oh, yeah. Right? Yes. Nell was such a good employer that later when a lot of garment makers started to unionize, hers didn't. For the most part, they thought she was more than fair to them.

So they didn't really feel the need to. So. Did you skip a paragraph again? No, I just realized I wrote something really stupid in my notes. Here's what I wrote verbatim. Are you ready? Yes. They dresses that women loved.

Try and say it simpler than that. I mean, insert your own verb. Yeah. And they treated their employees well, too. They their employees well. So Nell and Paul are raking in the dough. They were big old millionaires. In 1927, Nell was voted Kansas City's most illustrious businesswoman, which is a nice title.

Yeah, sure. How do I get that? Can I have a sash and a scepter with it? It does seem really girly, doesn't it? I feel like there was not an illustrious businessman. there was not an illustrious businessman. So a few years later, Fortune magazine described her as possibly the most successful business woman in America.

Wow. And she was right here in Casey. That's amazing. Yeah. It's really cool. Wow. So everything's awesome. She's rich.

She's successful. I'm guessing it's not awesome. And she's a target uh-huh because now we're getting toward the depression yeah um and here's this really wealthy person on december 16th 1931 at 6 p.m nell was being driven home by her chauffeur, George Blair. He pulled up. Okay. I had a little trouble figuring out where she lived because two different sources said two different things. But I think I figured it out. And check this out because it's a crazy one. 5235 Oak Street, Kansas City, Missouri.

I believe it's the location of the Toy and Miniature Museum. Hmm. Yeah. Crazy ass house, right? Yes. I love this house. I know. It's amazing.

It's an amazing house. This is when I wish my vocabulary was better because, like, all I can say is amazing. That's what we say constantly. It's amazing. It's so amazing. But, I mean, amazing is a good word. We're not wrong. So the driver wanted to go into the driveway, obviously.

But they were being blocked in by another car or blocked out by another car, which was odd. So he stopped in the middle of the street. And that's when three men jumped out and surrounded him. One guy has a gun, so he immediately goes to the chauffeur. He ties the guy up and takes control of the vehicle. The other two guys climbed into the back with Nell, and she put up a fight, but she was no match for these two men. They wrestled her down to the floorboard and held her there for nearly an hour so she was just trapped driving god knows where she couldn't see a thing oh my

gosh terrifying at one point they switched cars they left her car at the country country club plaza uh-huh when they finally came to a stop they were were in Bonner Springs, Kansas. Shut the fuck up. They pulled up to Brandy's salon. No kidding. So they took Nell and the chauffeur to a, and I'm quoting here, dingy four-room cottage where the walls were covered in religious pictures, which to me, that sounds like the scariest part. That sounds creepy as fuck.

Yeah. I kind of want more details and i kind of yeah they blindfolded the chauffeur bound his hands and feet and they forced nell to lie down on a gross cot oh my gosh worth noting i didn't find anywhere in my research that the cot was gross but but I'm just assuming. It's your own assumption. I mean, it said it was a dingy four-room cottage. Maybe they bought a brand new cot, still had the plastic wrap on it. For sure, no. I think at best they Febreze'd it. So that night, the kidnappers called the home of Nell's lawyer, James Taylor.

I love his music. It's crazy how this all comes together. A lot of people don't know that James Taylor lived in Kansas City and was a lawyer. Make sure you tell everyone you know. So James' wife answers the phone. And the kidnappers are like, by the way, is it a kidnapper when it's an adult? Yeah. I assume.

Yeah, sure. I at first was like, it's an abduction. But eh. Meh. Potato, potato. Kidnapper. Abductor. You say kidnapper.

I say abductor. Oh, we could go on it's really hard for me to not go on the only thing that's stopping me is that i can't sing so the kidnappers were like look we've got nell donnelly and we're gonna do horrible things to her. We abandoned her car at the Country Club Plaza. And James Taylor's wife is like, ha, ha, ha, goodbye. She thinks it's a joke. A break call. She thinks it's a joke. Oh, no.

Yep. They call back. Did she hang up on him? Yeah, she hung up on him. Fuck. She thought it was a dumb joke. Oh, my gosh. What happens next? Can you imagine being hurt?

So they're like, well, that didn't go as planned. So they wrote a letter to nell's husband paul they're like look we've got your wife we have george your driver if you don't give us 75 000 we will kill george and blind your wife i am i can't believe this i didn't adjust for inflation okay you gotta do it now fucking ridiculous can you believe that i adjusted for inflation on the price of those dresses? What are we known for if not adjusting for inflation? I feel like we're known for you yelling at me for not adjusting for inflation.

What year is it? This was 1931? Oh, great. I'm glad you're so confident about your story. It's not like I'm the one telling the story. Hang on. I could always look it up. Ooh.

What do we got? 1.2 million. Ooh. Well, they were worth it. I mean, by this point, they had like 1,000 employees. They'd done like 3.5 million a year in sales. OK, it was 1931, so I am a genius. I'm a genius because i know one fact

that i'm discussing right now yeah what what and if you want to know more you have to admit that i'm a genius so i'm kristin you're a genius carry on here. Here we go. So Paul, you know, unlike James Taylor's wife, who I couldn't find her name. My sister, James Taylor. Yeah,

I hate it. I hate that. Fun fact about me. I hate it when people call me the gaming historian's wife. I know. Have I told you that I hate that or do you just know me well enough?

I just know you well enough. Yeah, when I was born, my parents were like, oh, it's a beautiful little gaming historian's wife. Oh, God. Anyway. So Paul obeyed. Yes. And he calls his lawyer.

And this time James picks up. Oh, good. Not James Taylor's wife. And James was up. Oh, good. Not James Taylor's wife. And James was like, oh shit, no one has seen Nell in a while? I guess that hilarious joke my wife told me last night was not a joke. Wasn't a joke at all.

And instantly James is like, yikes, I'm in over my head here. Yeah. I need to call my law partner, the best lawyer in Kansasansas city no i'm serious shut up we all know him i think former kansas city mayor three-time u.s senator presidential hopeful now a major kansas city road james a reed what the fuck okay i feel like there were five people living in Kansas city back in the day. This guy appears in everything.

So he was actually working on a case in Jefferson city, Missouri, but James A. Reed knew Nell Donnelly really well. They were neighbors. And so when he heard the story, he was like, Oh my gosh, he goes to the judge. He's like, may I be excused? The judge is like, sure. Oh my gosh he goes to the judge he's like may i be excused the judge is like sure oh my gosh so even though the kidnappers had told the donald paul donnelly do not get the police involved yeah when that happened everyone found out yeah because by that point james a reed was a bit of a celebrity you know he'd already been a senator yeah By that point, he had sought the Democratic Party nomination. I think he did that in 27.

And obviously lost to, like, Al Smith or some shit. I don't know. Oh, yeah. I've been on his road before. Al Smith Parkway. I'm sure it's a parkway somewhere in the United States. So anyway, James A. Reed gets back to Kansas City and assesses the situation. Nell and the chauffeur are at a mystery location.

No one knows where. They have to find them. But how? Yeah. Well, James A. Reed didn't get into politics by being a squeaky clean guy. He had connections to political boss Tom Pendergast. The look on your face. I was waiting for it.

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. So Tom Pendergast basically controlled Kansas City. We talked about him a bit, just a little bit, on the Mary McElroy case. Yes. Holy shit. So Reed reaches out to Pendergast,

and, okay, this next part is a little controversial, but I don't see how people can call it controversial when it so clearly happened but anyway it seems pretty clear that he then reached out to john lazia a known gangster and dear old pal to pendergast so like i said by this point word had gotten out about the kidnapping it It was in newspapers. The Kansas City Police Department knew about it. And, of course, Kansas City was corrupt as hell at the time. There was a Bob Moss on every corner. Oh, I'm sorry, Mob Boss?

Mob Boss. I think his house pronounced. Okay, if no one knows what we're talking about here, that was two episodes ago when Brandy accidentally said Bob Moss and it was the funniest thing ever. So John Lazia actually met with the chief of police and told him, look, everyone loves Nell Donnelly. We like her politics.

She's a friend of James A. Reed's. No Kansas City bad guy would do this to her no one connected to me somebody outside it was not us wow but we will find her and the chief of police did he like liam neeson it it's like i've got a special sort of skills so nell was on the cell phone and like she shouts the description. And then they take her away. This was not in Bonner Springs. So, I mean, this just cracks me up.

The chief of police was like, okay, do your thing. Wow. So John Lazia, I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. Whatever. John Lazia. Isn't he a gangster? Yeah. So, I mean, what do you think he's going to do? Come back and kill you?

From the dead, maybe. Yeah. From the dead. So John sends out 25 carloads of men. Oh my gosh. All over the city. They're armed, they're violent, and they're angry. They have Tommy guns?

Of course they do, sure. And grenades. And modern machine guns. And AK-47s. And you know, they just wanted some information. So they go around like, basically what I read was like, they went from shithole to shithole to shithole, scaring the crap out of everybody trying to get some information. So Nell, meanwhile, is out in Bonner Springs on this shitty cot.

Getting her hair done. Getting her hair done. Getting some highlights with Brandy. She's been there for 30 hours. Brandy's really taking her time. And all of a sudden, these rough dudes burst into the place. And she's like, oh, my God. And they're like, no, we're the good guys.

Trust us. We're here to take you home oh my god a few different places bottom line a few different places had this slightly different versions anyway we're moving forward wonderful by that point she and the chauffeur had been there for 34 hours wow she's like, okay. So these guys take Nell and George, like they drop them off. They walk to a candy shop that was for some reason open at like 3.30 in the morning. The police get an anonymous tip.

And they say, hey, you're going to find him at this candy shop. Police show up a little bit later to find Nell and George surrounded by people in the candy shop. Go ahead, girl. Don't you stop. I'll let you lick the lollipop. So Nell was wrapped in a towel, which the kidnappers had given to her when she said she was cold.

Get ready. This is like, if there was like a dumbest criminal show back in the day, this would be on it. So police are like, do you mind if we look at that towel? So they did. A fucking name was on the towel. So dumb.

It was the name of the person who owned the cabin in Bonner Springs oh my gosh so they track that guy down and he's like yeah that's my towel I'm renting that place to Paul Sheed Paul shit sure so they go to Paul and Paul's like you caught me he's like this wasn't my idea i just supplied my home for this illegal activity what uh-huh this gets so much weirder he says william browning is the guy who approached me with this idea and he got the idea from Martin Depew. Police are like, who the hell is Martin Depew? So they start looking into him.

Apparently, he helped construct the Nelson Atkins Art Museum. He just did concrete or something like that. And get this, his wife, Ethel, worked as a nurse and she'd recently treated Paul Donnelly, Nell's husband. Oh, my gosh.

Pretty soon, the story unravels. The plan all along had been to kidnap Paul, not Nell. But Paul was sick that day and didn't leave the house at all. Oh, my gosh. And they didn't want to, like, go through the trouble of breaking into this mansion. So instead, they just grabbed her and the chauffeur. What?

Uh-huh. Oh my gosh. So, police tracked down Ethel DePue to her sister's home in Pennsylvania. Apparently, her gem of a husband had left her there with two dollars when she refused to cross the border into Canada.

Oh my gosh! Sorry, Mark. So they brought her back to Kansas City and charged her with two counts of kidnapping. And they did the same thing with William Browning, Paul Sheet, and another guy who, for some reason, I did not include in my notes here, but I'll get to him later. Ethel's husband? Nowhere to be found.

Wow. Mm-hmm. But the Kansas City court was like, that's fine. We don't need everyone to be here to get this train in motion. Here we go. So in February of 1932, Paul Sheed went to trial. Here we go. So in February of 1932, Paul Sheed went to trial.

Prosecuting attorney James Page, who we remember from last week's episode, he was ready. In his opening statement, he told the jury that Paul Sheed deserved the death penalty. Wow. Right? Little intense. Yeah. He's kind of swinging for the fences, but that's what he wanted. His first witness was Nell Donnelly.

Uh-huh. But her testimony wasn't super damning for Paul. She said that Paul was not one of the men who guarded her, and that she actually hadn't seen him until she went back to the farm with police, kind of after the whole thing was over. When the defense took over, there were a ton of character witnesses i was gonna say but he because he claims he just gave them a place to do the illegal thing yeah he didn't he wasn't actually involved right okay so that's what he's claiming um so there were a bunch of character witnesses who came forward and they were like no paul's a

good guy then paul took the stand he He's like, yeah, look, okay. I agreed to let other people use my house to do something bad. But I thought we were just going to kidnap some oil man who was in on the whole thing. And the oil man just wanted to get money from his wife who had a bunch of the family money in her name. So we'd keep him in my house and no big deal. Explain. What? Uh-huh.

What are your thoughts? Well, okay, so my first thought is, does he just have the facts wrong and this really was set up by Nell's husband? Hmm. No, I'm not saying you're right. I'm sorry, you looked so excited. I couldn't do that. I don't know. This is weird.

It's getting pretty weird. Yeah. Okay. Is Nell's husband's name is Paul? So you think they had a bond? Yeah. It was like the Paul Club. They met at their Wednesday meeting. Uh-huh.

In Bonner Springs. they sat on a gross cot and paul donnelly was like why am i doing this i'm a millionaire so paul's like i didn't know that we were going to kidnap a woman i didn't know we were going to kidnap her chauffeur i only learned who they were by seeing their names in the paper. I was horrified by this whole thing. In fact, three times I told those bad guys to let them go, but they told me to shut up or they'd kill me. Then Paul's lawyers did something really interesting.

They were like, look, I hate to tell you guys this, but Bonner Springs is in Kansas. Yeah. And here we are in Missouri. And you know what? Kidnapping is not a federal crime. Right. So what are we even doing here? Yeah.

Fun fact. This trial took place seven months before the Lindbergh law went into effect, which made it a federal crime. So they're like, we're under the water. So Paul's lawyers actually moved to dismiss the case. Wow. They're like, you haven't proven that he conspired to kidnap Nell Donnelly. Yeah. And if he did commit any crimes,

they did not happen in Missouri. Yeah. But the judge was like, bullshit. So the judge says like, Paul knew for at least 24 hours that Nell was in his home. You know, maybe this wasn't his plan, but he knew about it for quite some time. He knew that a crime was committed.

He knew she was taken in missouri he was definitely a party to a crime committed in missouri take your kansas bullshit out of here he basically said like if i if i allowed this case to be dismissed then i'd basically be giving a blueprint to kidnappers yeah like here's how you do it. Exactly. Which I think is a very good point. Yeah. So with that, the jury deliberated for six and a half hours. What do you think they decided?

Not guilty. They deadlocked. Really? It was a mistrial. Yeah. So Paul went to court again. Uh-huh. But you may be wondering,

whatever happened to Ethel's douchebag husband, Martin? Yeah. Turns out he was not in Canada. Police captured him in South Africa. What? How the fuck did he get to South Africa? It's 1931.

Okay, so the first thing I read, just like let that fact like lie out there. Didn't give any context. Didn't explain anything. I was like, holy hell. No, no, no, no. Okay. So turns out he went to New York. He got a job on board a merchant ship and it went to South Africa. It went to Johannesburg and he got off the ship and I don't know how they found him but they did and they brought him back to kansas city the fact that he got to south africa and then the fact that they found him in south africa is fucking nuts yeah holy shit because not that long ago in history fucking cassie chadwick was going one town over and starting a whole new life yes yes i mean this is this is crazy that is nuts holy shit so martin is back

in casey by the way can you imagine the look on his face when he got tracked down in johannesburg he's like where did I have to go? Oh my gosh. So Martin's back in Kansas City and they're like, you're going to get the death penalty. And he's like, okay, okay. Hey, whoa, whoa. I'm just going to plead guilty.

No need for a trial for me. Yeah. William Browning was like, I'll have what he's having. Yeah. So William gets 25 years and Martin gets life in prison because while they had him there first of all i think they were pissed that they had to

track him down and also um they found out that he had married ethel without divorcing his first wife so like he shady yeah it all caught up times of all kinds of shenanigans so So the thing about Martin and William is that now they were able to testify at Paul's second trial. Martin is like, you guys, Paul definitely knew we were kidnapping a woman. But William is like, you guys,

Paul was unpleasantly surprised to learn that we were kidnapping a woman. What? Who do you believe? So. I don't know. Who do you believe? I mean, knowing not so much about William, I guess I'd side with William.

Yeah. But surely they were both kind of shitheads, right? I mean, they go kidnap people. Yeah, they kidnapped someone. So I'd say they probably fall in the shithead category, yes. So the jury deliberated for two hours. What do you think they decided? I don't know.

They acquitted Paul. Wow. Yeah. Afterward, Prosecutor James Page, this poor guy. Yeah. He was pissed. Here's what he told the newspaper. I'm amazed by this verdict it is the

greatest miscarriage of justice since i have been in office when a man can come in court and admit he is guilty of kidnapping and a jury turns him loose it appears as if law-abiding people haven't any protection against the criminal element i agree with him yeah i mean he makes a good point i i really think so i i maybe he did aid in a crime so maybe he should have been convicted of a lesser or like sentenced to a lesser time well yeah i mean i think it was insane that james page wanted him to be put to death yes for. For basically volunteering his house for something bad. That's way too much. Yeah.

But yeah, I think that's crazy that you can be like, yeah, I wanted to do something illegal. Yeah. I did something illegal. And then get acquitted. Yeah. With Paul walking free and the other two behind bars, that left one last kidnapper, Charles Mele. This is the one that you couldn't remember earlier. Very good.

Excellent. Sorry, Charles. So James A. Reed takes Nell to the lineup where she identifies Charles as one of the men who guarded her in Bonner Springs. And one of the guys who was in the car that day. men who guarded her in Bonner Springs and one of the guys who was in the car that day. As part of the lineup, they put all the guys in a dark room and shined a flashlight on their faces. So that's how she picked them out. That's weird.

Yeah. I mean, I guess I'm guessing this cabin didn't have electricity. Yeah. So yeah, she probably didn't get a very good look at any of these guys. So she recognized his face and she also said he has a deformed hand he covers it with a glove and his right hand had been injured when he was a child so it was a little smaller than his left one then james a reed is like let's see your handwriting and sure enough his handwriting is similar to one of the notes that was written by the

kidnappers. They make the guy with the deformed hand write the kidnapping note? Kind of interesting, huh? Yeah. But I mean, you could assume that, you know, he wrote with his other hand, right? I don't know. I wasn't there, Kristen. I'm sorry, that was the grossest laugh ever.

Add that to the many things I'll be cutting out of this episode. So Charles' trial took place in 1932. And by this point, James Page is like, I am so sick of losing. Yeah. Hey, James A. Reed, will you please join me as a special prosecutor? Yeah. Hey, James A. Reed, will you please join me as a special prosecutor? The whole time, Charles was like, I'm not guilty.

And in court, he shared his alibi. He couldn't have been helping with the kidnapping because he was engaged in other, I'm sure, illegal activities. He was working at the Workman's Hotel in Kansas City, which I didn't bother Googling. What the fuck? Could you look it up now? Workman's Hotel. All one word. Well, no, you know what I mean.

You know what I mean. Nothing comes up right away. Okay. So basically that night, or around the time of the kidnapping he was overseeing gambling horse races by day dice by night the public was pretty shocked by this alibi they're like how could this have been happening and then truth comes out turns out that the kansas city police were receiving four hundred dollars a month to look the other way. So there were like six people who said that they saw Charles working in or around the hotel at the time of the kidnapping. So it seemed like a pretty solid alibi. Yeah.

On top of that, Paul Schmidt couldn't identify Mele as one of the guards. You know, he was like, yeah. Who the fuck's Paul Schmidt? Oh, oh, shoot. Paul, yeah. Who the fuck's Paul Schmidt? Oh, oh, shoot. Paul Sheet. Can you tell I was really tired when I wrote this script? You know, I'd prefer Schmidt because I know how to pronounce Schmidt. You know, I'd prefer Schmidt because I know how to pronounce Schmidt.

Now I'm going to introduce a whole new cast of characters with sort of similar names to the ones I've just mentioned. So Snell fondly takes the stand. So Charles has... so charles has are you okay is this my bob moss okay so charles has a pretty solid alibi charles has a pretty solid alibi paul s couldn't identify him yeah and on top that, the defense had their own handwriting expert. Okay. Dr. E. M. Perdue, which I hate when people just do initials, but whatever.

And the guy was amazing. He examined Charles' handwriting. A large part of your life you went by initial nickname. But I mean like in a court document that they're not going to give the person. Right. Excuse me. I prefer gaming historians. It's a lot catchier than Kristen.

So he examined Charles's handwriting and compared it to that of the kidnappers. And he's like, yeah, these aren't the same. I mean, he spent like 15 minutes on the stand just looking it over. Told the jury these, told the jury. These aren't the same. Yeah. Then the time comes to cross-examine Perdue. And Reed is like, stand down, Paige. I've got this. I've got this.

Let the real men step forward. So he gets up and he starts asking Perdue about his credentials. And Perdue is like, well, I went to the Hanneman Homeopathic Medical School. I practiced all kinds of stuff, physical therapy, osteotherapy. Oh, by the way, I'm also a lawyer, blah, blah, blah. So Rita's like, all right, cool. Are you a member of the Jackson County Medical Society? Cool.

Are you a member of the Jackson County Medical Society? And Purdue says, I object. What? You know how to do that? So your reaction is the same as the judge's. The judge is like, you're a witness. You can't object. You may be a lawyer, but you're not acting as one right now. And in response, Purdue says,

I have committed no felony. The attorney has no right to ask me that question. If I admitted to being a member of the Jackson County Medical Society, I would be guilty of a felony. Here's what happened next. What? Uh-huh. Read. When did you study comparative handwriting? Purdue. I didn't study comparative handwriting. I studied all of those things under the microscope. Read. What was the lowest magnification of the microscope you're using?

Purdue. 30 times magnification? Read. Don't you know that you can't observe handwriting magnified 30 times under a microscope? So Purdue just gives him like that weird smile where you know you're caught but you don't have

anything to say and the jury started laughing oh my gosh because it was just like okay you got you totally caught yeah you're caught you're full of stupid yeah afterward reed called up witnesses who were like yeah i don't listen to to that Purdue guy. He's a total idiot. Closing arguments got really ugly. The defense said that the kidnapping had all been a publicity stunt. What? Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

So one of the sources I saw implied that it was maybe a publicity stunt for Donnelly Garment. Yeah. And also for James a reed's presidential bid but something i saw said that like if that were true which it wasn't but if that were true that would have been really stupid for james a reed because basically all this kidnapping did was make very clear that he had some pretty shady connections in Kansas City because that's how they were able to catch them. He also said that Nell Donnelly ran a sweatshop, which just pisses me off. Yeah. Because, no.

That really fired James A. Reid up. He was very dramatic. Afterward, the jury deliberated. What do you think they decided? Guilty. Yeah. Yeah. Charles Mele was sentenced to 35 years. the jury deliberated what do you think they decided guilty yeah yeah charles melee was sentenced to 35 years he maintained his innocence though he said that the only reason he was going to prison was because nell donnelly was so well connected

what do you think um i think he's probably actually guilty i don't think so you don't no i really don't really i 100 don't huh i think eyewitness stuff yeah is a little sketchy and especially if she only saw him with a flashlight on that's true and then if they were just tying him to it based on handwriting and they totally destroy that expert expert in quotes because clearly he was not a handwriting expert and they had their own handwriting experts who said oh yes it is the same i also am kind of weird about handwriting analysis yeah. Yeah, I am too. I don't think it's, it's been widely disproven as a legitimate source of evidence. I thought you were going to say spork for some reason. But the other thing was like, and I didn't write this down, but Nell had originally, when she talked to police, she, she kind of mixed up where the guys were in the car, which

I think makes total sense when you think about she was traumatized yeah it was dark but i think it also shows that she didn't get a great look at people that does make sense so i don't know i i don't think he did it i think he probably really was overseeing some gambling or you know i could be totally wrong i mean i'm guessing we'll never know probably not i'm guessing he's dead yeah for sure so afterward nell and reed went and thanked all the jurors it had been a really tumultuous time for both of them. And Nell had had a baby at the time. I think the baby was like a year old at this point. Still, that's crazy.

Sure is. What are you saying? So here's the thing. She was married to Paul. Uh-huh. The baby wasn't Paul's. What? Uh-huh. The baby wasn't Paul's. What? Uh-huh.

Hold on to your fucking hat. So for years, late at night, James A. Reid, who was also married, would tell his wife. What? You're having a affair with James A. Reid? Yeah. Yeah, dude. Holy shit. wife what yeah yeah dude holy shit so he would tell his wife i'm gonna smoke my cigar now and i don't want the smoke to bother you so i'm gonna smoke it outside then he would walk down next door He and Nell would... Bang. Bang. So here's the thing. Over time, Paul had grown very resentful of Nell's success.

You know, he had that title as president, but everyone knew he wasn't the brains of the operation at all. He was constantly drinking. Maybe they called him Nell Donnelly's husband paul i feel you so he was constantly drinking he was out late at night at one point nell came home to find him in bed with another woman and the other woman was wearing her pajamas wait like her pajamas that she sold in stores? No, like literally Nell's pajamas. I feel like if it had been the other way, she'd be like, at least I made money off her. So when Nell first got pregnant, it was around the time of the Bridge Game murder trial,

which we talked about last week. But Reed was like, I'm not leaving my wife. Nell wanted to like, she was like, OK, I'm pregnant. Yeah. My husband knows it's not his. How old was she at this time? I think she was like 42-ish. Yeah, 42. Wow.

James A. Reid, 70. No! Nasty. I don't know. I don't find it that nasty, but. you don't i know you're you're uh i'm into older men my husband's seven days older than me watch out zach and he's gonna find a guy who's 50 years older than her if all of a sudden she starts saying she wants to go out for an early bird special you know

something's wrong like i said when nell first got pregnant she was like i want to divorce my husband you should divorce your wife and reed was like i'm not leaving my wife we've been married for like 40 years and i think she was actually in her 80s so she was a bit of a coug but anyway the other thing he told nell was plus you're irish i don't want to be married to an irish woman wow i know more like james a douche am i right but okay this is a weird transition but in 1932 james a reed's wife i think her name was lura mrs james a reed no no i think it was l-u-r-a lora anyway lura lura died boy sorry died. Boy. Sorry. I do. You don't think maybe her name was Laura and you just

No, I noticed the weird spelling. I noticed the weird spelling in this book. All right. We could call her Laura. It probably was Laura. Anyway.

A few weeks later after Laura died Nell said Paul, I want a divorce. I'll buy you out of the company. Here's a million dollars. Wow.

Did he take it? Yeah. Awesome. The following year, Nell and Reed hosted a dinner party. They invited about 20 of their friends. And they got married? At the dinner party? I guess the surprise wedding was not a surprise to you.

Well, I guess the surprise wedding was not a surprise to you. So Paul Donnelly almost immediately got remarried. He married a woman about half his age. I have no judgment because Brandy says I shouldn't. Immediately, he spent all of his money he got in the buyout and committed suicide in 1934. Wow. You know how I was so eager to find, like, pictures of the Reed house? Yeah. Then I realized that we have this book in the house.

It's called Kansas City, A Place in Time. The second edition. We do not own the first edition. But anyway, the James A. Reed residence is 5236 Cherry Street. It is crazy gorgeous. Here, take a look. Oh, my gosh. It's beautiful.

Yeah. Wow. I enjoy it very much. You approve? I'll take it. So Nell retired. This part I did not write down. But Nell retired from

The Donnelly Garment Company Sometime in the 50s The company eventually went bankrupt I believe in 78 She died in 1991 She was 102 Wow And that's the story of the Nell Donnelly

Dressmaking and kidnapping Slash abduction. Here we are. Are you ready for some murder? Yes. It's not really a lighthearted case. Oh, great. Well, I'm glad we're starting out laughing.

I'm sorry. I am basically going to retell you an episode of Dateline that I watched. I love. Which is like my favorite thing. Was it Keith Morrison? It wasn't. Lester Holt. Well, Lester Holt hosted it, but he didn't.

Oh, he didn't do the interview. Do the interview. Okay, you don't have to give me that look. I mean, you clearly don't watch that much Dateline if you think Lester Holt's doing the interviews. Wow. Wow. You know, I really don't anymore. It's ever since we got rid of cable. I'm not up on it.

Okay. It's May 26, 2012, just before 5.30 a.m. We're in Agency, Iowa, which is a small town of just under 650 people in the southeastern part of the state. Pretty big city. Okay, Norm. I wondered if you could tell that that was my Norman impression. Oh, it's more than four people? Pretty big city.

Yeah. A call comes in to the emergency dispatch center. On the line is a very distraught caller telling the dispatcher through sobs that his wife has been shot and isn't breathing emergency crews were dispatched to the home of seth and lisa teckle the home was a small trailer on a beautiful large piece of property um it had been a gift from seth's father and it had made the perfect starter home for the recently married couple seth and lisa were high school sweethearts and had dated for seven years before marrying in october of 2011 my god um yeah seth was 21 and lisa was 22

when they got married see i approve of that i was worried you'd say set Seth was 72 and she was 44. Seth was very close with Lisa's family. He called her father, dad, and had asked permission before proposing. And Lisa's younger sister, Presley had an especially close bond with Seth.

She described him as her best friend. Paramedics were already on the scene when the first officer, Deputy Marty Wonderlin, arrived. He was a young officer, new to the force, and he was just finishing up his overnight shift when he was dispatched to the scene.

And he's like, oh, God. And so he gets there. Paramedics are in the trailer they're working on lisa and they tell him she's been shot in the side and it doesn't look good yeah so he walks out of the trailer wait she was alive at this point yeah okay yeah i don't think so yeah he walks out of the trailer and he gets on his radio and he tells dispatch to get to call 58 and get him to the scene. And so they do. And badge 58 belongs to deputy Todd Caldwell, Lisa's father.

Deputy Caldwell was still in bed when he received the call from dispatch. He and his wife, an ER nurse rushed to the scene. His wife is Lisa's stepmother, but they were very, very close. They rushed to the scene, but Lisa's already gone by the time that they arrive. She was 23 years old and 17 weeks pregnant. Oh, no. Todd immediately knew who did this.

It was the neighbor the tecls had been having problems with this crazy neighbor over the fence and so he can be heard on dash cam video after he leaves after he walks out of the trailer first of all he can be heard like sobbing and just oh my gosh it's horrible like they play part of it on this Dateline episode. He's just, like, inconsolable and just sobbing. He actually saw, like, he went in. Went in and saw her. Yeah. And, like, Lisa's stepmom, like, laid in the bed with her and rubbed her belly.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Horrifying. So he can be heard on dash cam video going, that motherfucker. Go get him. Go get him now. And he's talking to all the deputies that are around him yeah the neighbor that he's referring to is 56 year old veteran brian tate

um todd was sure that his daughter was dead because of him they had had this feud that was going on between the neighbors and it all started over this deer carcass that uh teckels come home one day and there's this deer carcass that's been thrown over their fence and so they're sure that their neighbor had done it they live in a very rural area so it's possible it got hit by a car or that you know whatever yeah it i don't know it was running along and just dropped dead i don't know how fucking deer work it's a dead ass deer and it's in their yard and it's clearly been put in their yard so they pick it up and they throw it over the fence oh boy into uh the neighbor's yard brian tate's yard and he throws it back oh my god and so things just escalated from there.

Brian had called the police out after some minor vandalism was done to his property. He had come out one day and there was like just a huge amount of like dog shit that had been placed in his yard. Like dumped like buckets full. Did they put dog shit in this man's yard? In his yard. So he believed that they did. And so he called the police and Deputy caldwell comes out to the scene and he doesn't tell him that he's his neighbor's dad conflict of interest definitely and so he's like all right you know i'll go talk to the neighbors about this you know whatever and so like nothing really happens with that and then there's another

call um somebody threw rocks at his barn. His barn is like an aluminum barn. And so it's dented. It's really dented. Yes. And so things have just gotten really out of control between the two neighbors. The dog poop is really disturbing. Someone had to like save up. So Todd goes and talks to Seth and Lisa.

And they're like, no, we're not doing anything. Like somebody else is messing with him this is not us and he's like all right well the guy's kind of crazy so just stay away from him so by one o'clock the afternoon um of the shooting investigators go over to Brian's property and they go in guns a blazing they've got their weapons loaded they're in full armor like they're expecting like a hostile situation right they get up there they ring the doorbell and brian tate comes out he sets out chairs for them like they sit down they have a very calm conversation like he's very cooperative okay and what was seth doing this whole time he well he's

with he's at the scene okay he's he's relaying what happened the events of that day have we tested his hands yet for like gunpowder residue or something i will get there okay okay okay so deputies are sitting around talking to um brian t and he's like, they're like, you know, where were you at 5 o'clock this morning? And he is a paranoid schizophrenic. Oh, okay. And he says that he has an alibi for the night. His meds for his schizophrenia had recently been increased. And so that makes him sleep a lot

yeah when that happens and so he had gone to bed at 9 p.m and he'd slept all the way till 11 a.m the next day well that's kind of a shitty alibi but okay he lived with his mother and his mother backed him up and said yeah he was here. Again. Again, yeah, not the greatest. Not the greatest alibi. But still. Exactly. So the investigators, they really believe what he has to say. Like, you know, it seems pretty legit, and he's very cooperative, willing to answer any questions. And so they're like, all right, well, that didn't pan out exactly how we thought.

They totally thought that they would go up to the property and there would be a shootout. yeah fully expected that and so that afternoon investigators brought in seth for questioning you know that's the next step you know okay that was our first suspect you know our automatic you know we've talked to him next suspect you know husband for sure yeah the only other person in the trailer with her that day yeah bring him in and he comes in willingly doesn't ask for a lawyer he has already told his version of the morning's events a million times to every deputy that's there it's a very small town his father-in-law works on the force his wife is a jailer at the county jail so like

he's a volunteer firefighter so like he knows everybody so he's just you know everybody is consoling him and he's relaying the story and so he gets into this interrogation you know room and there's they for his comfort they put a deputy in there that he knows okay and then they bring in a state investigator a seasoned investigator that he doesn't know to really get to the bottom of things damn outsiders that's right and so he walks him through the chain of events just like he has you know to everybody else that he's talked to yeah it was just after 5 5 15 something like that he gets in the shower to get ready for work he isn't in there for five minutes when he hears a loud noise. He wasn't sure what it was exactly at the time.

But he jumps out of the shower. He hears Lisa moaning in the bedroom. And then he hears a commotion towards the front of the trailer, like where the front porch is. And so he grabs a handgun off the nightstand and runs after whoever he thinks this is right and he said he had every intention of shooting whoever was in his house he was sure there was someone in his house and he was gonna shoot him runs all the way outside goes out checks the property he doesn't see anything there's no one runs back inside goes to lisa she, there's blood everywhere. She is very badly injured. That's when he calls 911.

Has the, he is hysterical on the 911 call. Okay. He can barely get the words out. And, and so he breaks down at this point

during the interview. And he's like, oh, why couldn't I save her? I just wanted to save her. I should have been able to save her. And so, you know, the investigators are like, all right. So, you know, who would do this?

I mean, who comes to mind as a suspect? Yeah. And so he goes into the story about the neighbor, this Brian Tate. He talks about all the vandalism and all of that. And the investigator's like, were you vandalizing his property? And he's like, no, it wasn't us. I don't know who it was.

It wasn't us. And he's like, okay, all right. And so then the next step in the questioning is, okay, what guns do you have in the house? You know, you said you had a handgun. What else do you have in the house? And so he writes out an inventory of guns for them, gives that to the investigator. Great, whatever. And then things turn to a bit of a sensitive line of questioning.

Investigator asks if Seth is having any kind of extramarital affairs or if Lisa was. And he's like, you know, no. He's like, you know, I obviously have a lot of experience with law enforcement. I understand that this is a, this is a question you have to ask and that I am suspect number one here. And I'll answer whatever questions you have so that you can clear me and move on to the real suspect. I am loving this.

And he's like, I've got nothing to hide. Yeah. I, you know, this was nothing but a happy marriage. And we are so excited to become parents and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. In the meantime, back at the trailer, one of Seth's friends has come to the property because Seth and Lisa were watching his puppy.

And so he comes to get his puppy. He, I don't know if he hears about what's going on or what, or if it's just terrible timing, but he comes to pick up his puppy. Right. And so he starts talking to investigators a little bit and they're like, tell,

you know, telling him kind of what happened. And he drops a little nugget of information that kind of brings into some questions about the state of the marriage that was going on here. He told investigators at the scene that Seth has a burner phone. Okay, there we go. And that he was using it. Yeah, and that he was using it to text a girl from work. Wow.

was using it to text a girl from work wow and so the investigators at the scene text the investigator who's currently interrogating seth and let him know and like it is like they have so there's video of this sorry oh my god there's video of the interrogation room obviously yeah and so like the investigator pulls out his cell phone now this this is not the outsider investigator, right? Yeah. No, this is the outsider investigator. Gotcha. Gotcha. So he pulls out his phone.

The deputy's just sitting there. He's got a pad of paper. Like he's going to take notes or whatever, but I think I saw him like not at one point. No. So like he pulls out his phone and it is like, Seth knows what the message on the phone says. Like, Seth knows what the message on the phone says. And he's like, okay, maybe I haven't been, you know, completely straightforward about everything. I have been, you know, talking to a girl from work.

She's just a friend, just a friend. Lisa knew all about it. No, she didn't. But she found out about it. And I told her I stopped talking to her. But I haven't really stopped talking to her. I was still talking to her. And the investigator's like, okay, so tell me about these text messages. And he's like, oh, you know, it's really just pretty innocent stuff.

How's your day? Sorry we didn't get to work together today. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the stuff you use for blah, oh, you know, it's really just pretty innocent stuff. How's your day? Sorry we didn't get to work together today. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's the stuff you use for blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so, yeah. And so the investigator's like, really? You had a secret to say how was your day? And he's like, well, you know, some of it was, you know, sometimes she would send me,

you know, some explicit stuff. And I always said, please don't send me these pictures of your boobs. I don't want to see these boobs. And so this just goes on and on. He keeps admitting like a little bit more, a little bit more. Yes, we were sending explicit messages back and forth. Yes, she was sending me nudes. Yes, we've kissed multiple times.

Yes, we've said we love each other. Yeah. But. Yes, we've've had sex we have never had sex okay okay seth what i don't get it is so stupid to lie about stuff that you know can be verified. Yeah. But basically my message is lie about things that you can't get caught doing. So he knows he's been caught a little bit, but he doesn't really know to the extent yet.

And then the investigator's like, yeah, your buddy Colton is over at the trailer. And he's telling us some stuff. And then he's like, yeah, so I may have told Rachel that Rachel's this girl that he's talking to. Oh, okay. I may have told Rachel that Lisa and I were getting a divorce. But we weren't really. I may have told her that. He's like, oh, you may have told her. It's so hard to remember whether you told your side chick, whether you're getting a divorce.

Yeah. And he says that he only told her that because he really liked the attention and he just wanted her to string her along. And she was like, Hey, you know what? I would really like to be with you i think we have a lot in common but i'm not interested in breaking up any families so as long as you're married we're just friends and so which what that this is what this is what he says rachel told her told him before or after she was sending the nudes he said she's sending after she sent these nudes yeah so she sent nudes to him okay so they're doing their thing and then he's like i'm getting a divorce yes he's telling she he's telling her this whole time that they're

splitting up they're getting a divorce okay and then she's finally like hey you know you keep saying you're getting a divorce but if you're not really like I'm I'm out. OK. And so he's like, no, no, no. Really, really. We're getting divorced. And so at this point, like four hours have gone by in this interrogation. Oh, my God. And the investigator lays it out.

He says. We know that you killed your wife. We know you did it because you wanted to be with Rachel. Yep. And Seth's like, what? Me? I can't kill my wife. I could never kill my wife.

If I wanted to be with Rachel, I'd just get a divorce. And then he's pissed. Okay. And he gets up and he's like, you know what? This interrogation is over. i'm out of here okay and so like i said he's been in there for like four hours and his parents have come to the police station oh my god in that time and they've been like pounding on the door to get what because they want him to stop talking to investigators without without a lawyer yes they're like hey

idiot yes shut up so when he leaves like his parents are there and they're like we're leaving you need a lawyer and so like but the weird thing that he does is when he gets up to storm out of the room oh my god what he walks across the room because he's been sitting across the table from the investigators and he shakes both of the investigators hands how weird is that i mean he just murdered someone that day so like his mind is all jumbled convinced that he's murdered someone that day of course are you about to tell me he didn't i don't know for sure he did brandy so kristin is sure wait how long was this episode of dateline was this like an hour or did they do the two hour special it was a two hour special shit there's got to be

another twist then am i wrong this is why you piss me off in your cases because you get me to call people super douches and then i feel bad about it later when it turns out that they were like dead, you know. I was about to say dead the whole time. That's not. So Kristen is sure that Seth has killed his wife. Lisa's stepmother and sister

were sure that he had not. They were like, not our Seth. Not our family member. Todd, Lisa's father, wasn't so sure anymore.'m with you todd the fact that seth abruptly ended the interview and lawyered up really rubbed him the wrong way so at the end of the first day of the investigation investigators took stock of what they knew they had a grieving husband a possible mistress a crazy neighbor with an alibi though and they hadn't

been able to locate the murder weapon okay the inability to locate the murder weapon was a big concern obviously yeah they knew that lisa had been shot with a 12 shotgun. But there was no 12-gauge shotgun on the list of guns that Seth had given them, the inventory from the home. Well, obviously he wouldn't put the murder weapon on the list. Oh, by the way, go search for this. So then they started talking to Seth's friend Lucas, who, I don't know, also just happened to stop by the trailer, apparently. I think Seth had no real friends

because these friends are like oh by the way did you know he did this shady thing it's funny you say that because in this episode like there's three of his friends are sitting at a table talking to the host of the episode and he's like or the guy doing the interviews on the episode it's the guy I don't know it's not

I don't know this guy's name he's like the older guy they're all older guys right no He's like the older guy. They're all older guys, right? No. There's like a young, cute woman. Well, you really got to watch some Dateline. Anyway. So they're sitting at a table talking to him and they're like, he's like, it seems like you guys really liked Lisa.

And they're like, yeah, she was great. And he's like, so you think Seth was pretty lucky. And they're like, yeah, she was great. And he's like, so you think Seth was pretty lucky? And they're like, yeah, lucky and dumb. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So Lucas shows up and he's talking to investigators. And he said that he had lived with the Teckels until just recently there at the trailer. And that when he moved out, he left his Mosper 12-gauge shotgun at the trailer. And when he moved out he left his mosper 12 gauge shotgun at the trailer and that had been in the gun rack and so he just left there they had this nice gun

rack that hang on the wall and he just left it there but when crime scene investigators scoured the home after the shooting that 12 gauge shotgun was nowhere to be found wow how interesting and you mean to tell me that seth did not mention it on the list didn't and investigators were certain that this was the gun that killed lisa yeah obviously but where was it so second day of investigation they're like okay to-do list number one find the fucking murder weapon and so they send all investigators out all over this property. Was that their entire list? That was the whole list.

Find murder weapon, solve murder. Have lunch. We do that before lunch, you get ice cream. That's a good incentive right there. So they send investigators out all over this piece of property. It's a big property. The plan, I think, was to live in this trailer and then build a nicer home on this property. so they send investigators out all over this piece of property it's a big property the plan i think was to like live in this trailer and then build like a nicer home on this property

um and so they're searching this property for seth and melissa what was her name rachel i was so close wasn't i and what do they find a 12 gauge shotgungauge shotgun? A Mossberg 12-gauge shotgun, 20 yards from the door of the trailer. Come on, Seth. Hidden in an area of, like, high grass. Seth. They do ballistics tests. Do you want to guess what those ballistics tests say?

They said, Seth did it. Seth. Seth did it. They confirm that this is the gun that shot the bullet that killed Lisa. Yes. With the murder weapon found, investigators looked at a possible motive. Was this a husband lusting after another woman? Or was it this crazy neighbor with a vendetta they were pretty sure it was set so a couple days after lisa's death they brought in seth's

work friend rachel for questioning she detailed for them the explicit texts and graphic pictures that they had exchanged and admitted that they had kissed but she said that was as far as it had gone they it legitimately seems like they had never had sex he had a small penis that was like where she drew the line apparently like she was fine you know wasn't really an affair until they had sex god people suck i know so rachel told investigators that seth had told her that he loved her and that he wanted to be with her but she told him that as long as they were married as long as she was no he was married he was the one that was married as long as he was married all they could be was friends where did they work by the way they were security officers uh i don't know uh someplace okay they

asked rachel if it would be if it would surprise her if seth had killed lisa and she said honestly it would the seth i know couldn't be a murderer. Well, yeah. I mean, why would you be? Yeah, exactly. But this was all the motive they needed. They were sure that Seth was their guy. Yeah. Are you about to tell me it wasn't him? This is crazy. They arrested him immediately after his wife's memorial service oh boy and take took him into custody at

the funeral home okay i have said that this man is a murderer and he has a small penis are you about to tell me stay tuned oh my gosh in a symbolic gesture the cuffs placed on Seth were Lisa's cuffs, the ones she used as a jailer and a reserve deputy. Whoa. Yes. Woo. Yes. Seth's trial was set for February 2013, and the prosecution had a pretty straightforward strategy. Show motive, show opportunity, and eliminate the other suspect.

Mm-hmm. They plan to call the eccentric feuding neighbor on the theory that the devil, you know, is always better than the devil. You don't know. Yeah. So, yes, we have this crazy neighbor. The defense is going to say that's, you know, the real suspect. But we're going to call him. We're going to show you that, yes, he's eccentric, but he's no boogeyman.

Yeah. That would never happen, though. Just four months after Lisa's death, Brian Tate died. Oh, no. happened though just four months after lisa's death brian tate died oh no his family said he died from a broken heart that he could ever be considered a suspect in the young beautiful expectant mother's murder like they said after they he was brought forward as a suspect he spiraled and he died of like cardiac arrest really yes oh my god four months after lisa died oh how terrible yeah it was a huge blow to the prosecution and a big help for the defense when you've got this eccentric crazy neighbor who now you can paint him however you want they've got video of him being weird

mentally ill not crazy right yes yes yes but the defense was going to yeah paint him as this They've got video of him being weird. Mentally ill. Not crazy. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. But the defense was going to. Yeah. Paint him as this. Yeah.

Yeah. Completely out of control. Horrible person. Yes. On February 21st, 2013, opening arguments began in the trial of Seth Teckle. He had pled not guilty and he was charged with first degree murder and non-consensual termination of a human pregnancy. Huh.

What do you think of that? I don't know. I just I didn't know that that was a thing. Non-consensual termination. Non-consensual termination of a human pregnancy. Okay. The defense played Seth's call to 911 in their opening statement. Did it sound fake?

It doesn't actually. Okay. They said that it was proof that he was a distraught, grieving husband. You be the judge of whether that sounds like someone who has just done

a cold and calculated plan, which doesn't make it easy. Or a man who was in shock and panic. Okay. I just think that's poor grammar. Steve Gardner, who was Teckel's defense attorney. Their theory was that Lisa was the victim of a random shooting.

No, come on. The prosecution, however, said that Seth killed his wife to cover up the affair he was having with his co-worker. When you listen to all the evidence in this case and see all the exhibits, there will be only one conclusion you can make. And that is that the defendant who committed these terrible, horrific crimes against his wife did it for the oldest reason in the book. Love and lust. Said prosecutor Andrew Prosser fine print the defense was relying heavily on the fact that no physical evidence ever linked seth to the murder this would be a huge hurdle for the prosecution to try and overcome but they believed that they could overcome it

with the powerful evidence that the shotgun had come from inside the house and was found on the property. No murderer or random shooter, as the defense wanted jurors to believe, would come to the house without a murder weapon. Yeah. One of the first witnesses the prosecution called was one of Seth's friends to show a side of Seth that many didn't know. The deceptive and manipulative side. Mm hmm. that many didn't know. The deceptive and manipulative side.

He testified that all of the vandalism Brian Tate had complained about, the dog crap, the rocks being thrown in his barn, they had all been done by Seth's friends at Seth's request. Yep. Literally, he had them fill five-gallon buckets full of dog shit and dump them in this guy's yard

this poor man who's suffering from paranoid schizophrenia yes they're messing with him yes terrible prosecutors were quick to point out that to the jury that seth had denied any involvement in the vandalism both to lisa's father and to the investigator to interrogate him after l Lisa's murder. In both instances, he was like, no, this wasn't me. This wasn't me. Yeah. The prosecution's star witness was Seth's friend from work, Rachel, and she testified

that her friendship with Seth escalated to a sexual level in December of 2011, just two months after he and Lisa got got married no two fucking months no no terrible she testified that he constantly asked her to send him nude pictures and he told her he loved her and repeatedly told her he was going to leave his wife rachel also testified that on may 20th she and seth met up at a park and sat on a bench talking and kissing and taking selfies during the tryst though rachel mentioned that she was tired of waiting for him to leave his wife and that she was interested in another guy from work okay go ahead girl needs to like get on on Tinder, broaden her horizons.

Seth told her that I lost my place and that he wanted to be with her. Wow, he said both those things. Yes. They had so much in common. He had tried to make it work with Lisa, but it just wasn't happening. Yeah, tried real hard if he gave the marriage two whole months. He asked Rachel just to give him two more weeks. What the fuck?

Six days later, Lisa was murdered in her own bed. Oh, shit. Okay, now hold on. And Rachel told the police when they asked her, do you think that he could murder someone? She was like no i don't think so i guess it was just a coincidence when he said everything would be magically resolved in two weeks come on rachel the defense countered though that the affair motive was missing a major

element what sex rachel and seth had never sex. People can still do terrible things. The defense said Seth was being accused of murdering his wife for an affair that he hoped someday would happen. They said a few kisses does not an affair make. I disagree. I disagree, too. I think he was totally having an affair. I don't think it matters that he didn't actually have sex. I think anyone who says that, like, let's go have their spouse go off and, like, send a bunch of nudes and make them feel like, are you mad?

Oh, you shouldn't be because it's an affair. Yes. The defense also countered the prosecution's position that Brian Tate, the neighbor, was a harmless eccentric. They painted him as a mentally ill man with a dangerous vendetta against the Teckels. They theorized that Tate had entered the Teckel home that day through an unsecured side door and shot Lisa for revenge.

The key evidence in this theory? A peanut butter and jelly sandwich was found in a baggie on the back deck. They argued that it had to have been dropped by the killer that morning because with the nature of their rural property, had it been left there overnight, critters would have eaten it. Was there any DNA on this thing?

Like anything? No, but I think his breath smelled like peanut butter. No, the defense called this their most compelling piece of evidence and i think that's a really shitty evidence after two and a half weeks of testimony the jury began deliberations on march 11th 2013 they deliberated and deliberated and deliberated for 45 45 minutes? Three days went by. What?

No, no, no, no, no. Whoa, no. Three days went by. The longer the jury stayed out, the more worried the prosecution got. I'm worried. Then things in the jury room completely broke down.

The jury had reached a stalemate. No. One holdout juror began banging on the jury room door with both hands and yelling out, I want out of here! I want out of here! Oh, what? The other jurors, like, broke down in tears

and realized that they were up against a wall and nothing else could be done. The judge declared a mistrial. Oh, my God. Prosecutors immediately decided to try seth again the jury vote had been 10 to 2 for conviction of course it had yeah lisa's family was heartbroken at the idea of having to sit through another trial but they wanted justice for lisa yes seth's second trial was set for october of 2013 due to the previous mistrial the second trial Yes. the man accused of killing her and her unborn child. Oh, God. Someone that they had loved as their own, but now felt as if they had never known.

So for a while, Lisa's stepmom and sister had said, oh, no, he couldn't possibly do it. They're totally, yeah, they totally believe it's him now. Yes, yes. Seth's second trial was a carbon copy of the first. Same lawyer, same judge, same witnesses. Same PPJ. Rachel, again, had to read her sexually explicit texts in the

court and some of her explicit pictures are shown shown to the jury why i would just like this to be a lesson think twice about those texts you're sending ladies and gentlemen think about how you would feel if you were forced to read those in front of a courtroom and then have that recorded and broadcast on day. If nothing else, just make sure you really like those pictures of yourself. Make sure you're proud. Yes. One small change the defense made with the knowledge that the previous jury jury had nearly convicted their client was that they painted the eccentric neighbor as an even bigger boogeyman.

They had his psychiatrist testify about his paranoid schizophrenic diagnosis and how quickly he could become volatile and agitated. After three weeks of testimony, a second trial, or I'm sorry, a second jury had Seth's fate in their hands. Then, like a horrible moment of deja vu, the judge received a note from the jury foreman. No. The jury could not reach a verdict.

You're kidding me. not reach a verdict. You're kidding me. The memories of the first trial were raw in Lisa's family and they began to openly cry in the courtroom. Oh my god. The judge instructed the jury to continue deliberations and a couple of jurors gave

sympathetic glances to the Caldwell family as they prepared to leave the courtroom to do so. In a dramatic courtroom moment, Seth Teckel's defense attorney stood up and chastised Lisa's family for trying to persuade the jury with their outward display of emotions. Oh, come on. He said he wouldn't stand for it. And if they continued, he would move for a mistrial then and there.

Oh, God. The prosecutors countered, saying the suggestion that anyone in this courtroom is being overly emotional in an effort to persuade the jury is nonsense. Yeah. The jury left to continue deliberations. The judge got the courtroom back under control. But two hours later, jurors returned. Nothing had changed. They were still deadlocked.

What? This time, the count was nine to three in favor of conviction. Oh my God. A second mistrial was declared. Oh my God, no, what? Yeah, second mistrial. Again, the state didn't hesitate. Seth would be tried a third time.

You are kidding me. This time though, a new defense team would take a different tactic. Instead of focusing on the neighbor, they focused on what they believed to be subpar police work at the scene of the crime. They argued that it was a sloppy investigation from the beginning. Ballistics tests had been done to match the gun to the victim, but the gun nor the shells had ever been checked for fingerprints.

What? Nor had Seth or Brian Tate been checked for gunpowder residue what the hell seriously okay well that is bad police yes the venue had been changed again this time to davenport i which was three hours away from the original venue but the same judge heard the case and the same prosecutors argued their side okay they argued that if seth had not killed his wife that he was the victim of the greatest coincidence ever known to man he tells his girlfriend that he's left his wife which he hasn't and then 17 hours later an unknown assailant breaks into his house and shoots his wife with a weapon he didn't bring with him

to drive home their theory that set Seth had chosen murder over divorce, the prosecution called a co-worker friend of Seth's. He said he'd had a heart-to-heart with Seth and told him he either needed to end it with Rachel or file for divorce from Lisa. The co-worker testified that Seth had responded to that saying, what are you going to pay my child support? Oh. And then he said it would be better if she was in a car wreck and died.

Oh, my God. This is the most frustrating story you have ever told. I hate this. The new defense team wasn't going down without a fight, though. In addition to their new defense strategy focusing on a botched investigation they had a shocking new witness that witness was a co-worker of lisa's who she was having an affair with oh good grief he testified that the affair started before she'd married seth and had continued up until just weeks before her death. What? He testified that she'd told him there was a 20% chance that he was the father of her child.

20%? Yeah, I don't know. She factored that? What? Yep. The defense argued that this was just one more example of a botched investigation. They had decided right off the bat that it was Seth and they hadn't looked at anybody else. The evidence of the affair was right there on her phone and the police never looked into it.

Okay. Agreed. Agreed. They hoped that this would give jurors enough reasonable doubt to doubt the entire investigation. And not to convict Seth. Oh my God. Though all three trials had been similar, this one would not end the same as the previous two.

This time, the jury reached a verdict. What do you think they did? Not guilty. They found him guilty on both charges. What? Yep. Wow. Lisa's family broke down in tears as the verdict was read aloud.

Seth showed no emotion at all. Wow. The jury had deliberated for four hours this time. Yes. This is shocking. In September of 2014, Seth was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He appealed his conviction, but the Iowa Court of Appeals upheld his conviction in July of 2016. What do you think?

You think he did it? Okay. Here's the thing. I think if I'd been on that third jury and I heard all the things that the police didn't do, I don't know. Yeah, I might not have been able to convict. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

Even though, you know, obviously, you know me, I've been like, it was him the whole time. Yeah. Oh, he 100% did it. But I am amazed that that third jury convicted. But there's reasonable doubt there, I think. Yeah. That was horrible.

I hated every minute of that that i get sweaty when it's like acquittal and another acquittal it's like oh man yeah isn't that crazy that was crazy also totally small potatoes here yeah why do people get married i mean seriously if you're both having yeah affairs why are you married to each other especially five minutes into marriage like one of those i i am guessing because they were together since they were like 14 years old they were probably like well i think we're supposed to get married now we're probably supposed to just be married to each other now because we've been together for so long. I think it's probably one of the things where they were each afraid to break up with the other one.

I do want to add here at the end that Lisa's father spoke on the episode of Dateline about how he had immediately rushed to judgment about the neighbor. Yeah. immediately rushed to judgment about the neighbor yeah and how he felt terrible about it and how he could never express fully how sorry he is for that to his family and all of that because he he didn't have all of the information yeah and he completely from the beginning believed it was him and made his life hard because of it until the full picture came together. Yeah, there's a good lesson in that. Yeah, for sure. To not rush to judgment.

But at the same time, and I don't know if people even had the authority to do this, but I feel like they shouldn't have been allowed into the trailer to see that. Yeah. Oh my gosh, that was terrible when i watched this because i watched this episode of dateline a long time ago and i was like oh my gosh it just kept getting worse and worse and worse terrible yeah so that's uh that's my case uh can you tell us a joke now, Kristen, and bring us back up? What? What are you talking about? What do you call...

What do you call an alligator wearing a vest? I don't know. An investigator. That was terrible. That was an excellent joke. You're wrong. Did you just smell your armpit yeah it's not great well i was such ladies

well i was moving my water and like i caught a whiff of something not so fresh i took a shower and put on deodorant for you and perfume so in your face well i showered also and i put on deodorant i've run out of perfume and all i have left is like a sample from a birch box and it smells like an old lady yes is this a thing with birch box uh so i got a couple from birch box that i thought smelled like old ladies and then the other day i was at uh the salon getting ready to get my lashes done and they have perfume at the salon that I go to. And so I was like, oh, look at this Prada perfume.

And so I like, fucking old lady deluxe. It was so bad. When I got back to the room to get my lashes done, because we get, like, she does it like in a closed room. I was like, I am so sorry that I smell like an old woman. You know, I've noticed that with a lot of the really high-end perfumes. Yeah. What are they thinking?

I don't know. I know everybody loves Chanel No. 5. No, it smells like an old woman. Yes. A Nazi sympathizer. Wow! What? Chanel was.

Coco Chanel was. She was? Yeah. I didn't know. You didn't know that? Still holding out for those 50. Oh, my God. Let me Google it right now.

Can you imagine if we found out? Oh, my God. Please. 48. Okay. Okay, folks. Here's the deal. We have 48 ratings on iTunes.

We would love to get to 50. Because everyone knows that when you get to 50 ratings on iTunes. We would love to get to 50. Because everyone knows that when you get to 50 ratings on iTunes. You get a parade. And your mom takes you out for ice cream. So. I would love to be taken out for ice cream. Me too. Please help us.

Get taken out for ice cream by our moms. Where would you go if you had your choice oh gosh uh cold stone really yeah what would you order at cold stone cake batter ice cream with heath bar oh okay i always do the cake batter i have never thought to add he Bar. Delicious. Okay. That's like my favorite ice cream. I couldn't even tell you the last time I had it. I mean, it's been years. And it's your favorite?

Yeah. I think Zach doesn't like it. I don't know. Oh, okay. He owes me, like, all the time, he's like, you know, I'll take you there sometime. He owes me like three trips to Cold Stone. So, okay, yes, head on over to itunes leave us a rating leave

us a review there please um we just want to be super cool and be your favorite podcast is that too much to ask and uh find us on social media we're on facebook instagram twitter and uh you know join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

For this episode, I got my info from the book, here we go folks, James A. Reed, legendary lawyer, Mar Plott in the United States Senate, and the book, Called to Courage, Four Women in Missouri History, and the book, The Devil's Tickets, A Vengeful Wife, A Fatal Hand, and a New American Age, and kchistory.org. Hey, by the way, academic folks, you don't always have to make a crazy long title, but I love your books. I got my info from the Dateline episode before dawn, and then a couple of articles from WhoTV, which is a local Iowa NBC affiliate and the Associated Press. For a full list

of our sources, visit LGTC podcast dot com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read those insanely longly titled books. Longly titled? They're really good books. They just have very long

titles.