Let's Go To Court! - 281: The Murder of Janet Chandler

Episode Date: December 20, 2023

In the dead of winter, 1979, a man called his local police station with concerns. He’d been staying at the Blue Mill Inn and had just been on the phone with the motel’s desk clerk when he’d heard something unusual. It sounded as if someone had gotten into the office. Perhaps the person had been intent on robbing the motel? The caller heard the desk clerk, Janet Chandler, say “don’t take it all, sir.” When police arrived at the motel, they discovered money missing from the register. Janet Chandler was nowhere to be found. A day later, a snowplow driver discovered Janet’s body by the side of the road. The murder of  22-year-old Janet Chandler shocked the small community of Holland, Michigan. Who had murdered Janet? And why? For decades, those questions went unanswered. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Kristin read a bunch of articles, then spat them back out in her very limited vocabulary. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Gang rape, murder and justice in a small town,” by Shaun Assael for Glamour “Conspiracy of silence,” by Victoria Corderi for NBC News “Second man convicted in Janet Chandler murder case dies in prison,” by Peg McNichol for WHTC “Witness provides graphic details of final hours,” by John Tunison for Michigan Live “State court rejects appeals of Chandler killers,” by Megan Schmidt for the Holland Sentinel “Chandlers can’t forgive killers showing no remorse,” by Lee Lup for The Muskegon Chronicle “Witness: Guards plotted to ‘teach’ victim a lesson,” by John Tunison for Michigan Live “Swank: ‘No excuse’ for role in Chandler death,” by John Tunison for Michigan Live “Witness: I did not plan rival’s death,” the Press Enterprise “Where are Jim and Glenna Chandler now?” by Sounak Sengupta for The Cinemaholic YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 53+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the murder of Janet Chandler. The name sounds very familiar to me.

This is a horrible case. Okay, great. I'm very sorry. Okay. Because you know what? I realized this is going to be our last case before break. Yeah. We're going into the holidays.

Yeah. And boy, do I have the worst story I may have ever told. You brought a big old bummer. Oh, like the biggest bummer. The biggest bummer. Okay. You're welcome, everyone. Happy holidays.

Great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Brandy, how you doing? I'm doing good. How are you doing? Hey, I got a big old pot of sinus tea. Yeah, what's that do? I don't know.

Probably nothing. I was looking at the packaging and it was like none of this is cleared by the FDA. That's all supplements, though. They all have this. Well, yeah, but I mean, I don't know. It's supposed to make me feel really good. Okay. So that I can tell a horrible story and feel nothing inside because my sinus T will take care of that.

I believe that's what it said on the packaging. Okay, perfect. They take care of feelings of discomfort, emotional or physical, you know, what have you. Sure. All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome to this podcast. You're thinking you want more of us.

Yeah. You're like, oh, my gosh, they're about to go on break. I hear they take January off. That's right. The rumors are true. Yes. But you know what we don't take off? Patreon.

Or our pants. Never. If you sign up on Patreon, what are you doing over there? Well, I accidentally hit a button, and then I was trying to undo what I did. And sorry. Well, I accidentally hit a button, and then I was trying to undo what I did. Sorry. I was trying to do it very nonchalantly.

I didn't know you were watching me like a fucking hawk. Oh, okay. Let me tell you something. In those movies where it's like, we've got to get to the ruby. We've got to get through the lasers. Just like the first laser, boom, run right into that thing. You are not subtle at all. Anyhow, if you want to hear more from us, go to patreon.com slash LGTC podcast.

We got all kinds of stuff there. 53 bonus episodes. Oh, so many. You can get in the Discord. You can chitty chat the day away with other listeners and us. What else we have? We've got, you can get inducted into the Supreme Court. You can get a sticker.

You can get a card with our autographs. You can get ad-free episodes and you can get them a day early. All that and more available on our Patreon. Dixon Cider long-sleeve shirts. Yeah. Are you just saying words or are those back? Well, I put in the reorder for them. Okay, excellent. So hopefully by the time people listen.

Yeah, so everyone, we put out new merch on LGTCpodcast.com. Well, we announced it only on Patreon. Yeah. And the reason we only announced on Patreon was because that shit sold out. Fast. So thank you for your support, first of all. Yes. Amazing.

And yeah, more on order. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Anyhow. Okay. You want to tell us this terrible story? I'm really sorry. Okay.

Okay. So let me tell you, Katie in the Discord is to blame for this terrible case. All right. We know Katie. We hate Katie. Yeah, Katie's a Bills fan, so. Well, I don't give a shit about that. I barely know what that means.

But I know Katie recommended this awful case. Yeah. I actually read an article about it when she first recommended it. And I was like, that is the most horrible story I've ever heard in my life. Oh, my gosh. It's terrible. And I was like, I'm definitely not doing that. But I couldn't stop thinking about it. And so here we are. Here we are. Okay. So this is more of a Brandy case. Is that what you're telling us? Well, you're going to see the aspects that make it a Kristen case. But absolutely, this is more of a brandy case.

Okay. In that it sucks. That's rude. Okay. Shout outs to, okay, I'm not going to read the title of this article, but it's by Sean Asale for Glamour. Incredible article. Okay. A lot of this comes from but it's by Sean Asale for Glamour. Incredible article. A lot of this comes from that article by Sean.

Also, Dateline covered this. I couldn't watch the episode, but they had a lot of written coverage about it, so there you go. You didn't watch it, but you did read it. I'm trying to avoid saying that. Thank you. Also, great coverage by John Tunison for Michigan

Live. Oh, okay. Okay. Here we go. It was the middle of the night and snowy on January 31st 1979 in Holland, Michigan when a call came in to the local police station.

A man who was staying at a dumpy roadside motel called the Blue Mill Inn said he was concerned. What was he concerned about? Oh, I wasn't going to tell you. And, you know, he didn't either. He was like, I'm concerned. And they're like, sir, you got to stop calling. You know, we might have an emergency to get to. We might. Turns out he did have an emergency. Don't worry. He told the dispatcher, I have reason to believe that there might be a robbery in progress down in the office or the lobby. He explained that he'd been on the phone with Janet Chandler, the young woman who

worked the night shift at the motel's front desk, when all of a sudden he heard like some kind of scuffle. He heard Janet say to someone, don't take it all, sir. And that was it. Janet never came back on the phone. So police arrived on the scene and sure enough, like 500 bucks was missing from the motel's register. And more importantly, Janet Chandler was nowhere to be found. Interestingly, it seemed like she might have taken her purse. It wasn't in the office. But she'd left her coat behind.

Oh. Yeah. It's probably fucking freezing, right? Oh, it's fucking Michigan. Yeah. It's January. It was snowy. Yeah.

No, you want your coat. And she'd left a cigarette sitting in the ashtray. So this seemed to be a robbery and abduction. This was obviously very alarming. Robberies in this area weren't uncommon, but a robbery and abduction absolutely was. So all six members of the Holland Police Department got to work. Six members? That's the whole police force?

Yeah, it's a small town. All right. It looks very charming. Okay. They have gorgeous tulips. I was going to say, do they buy into the whole Holland theme? Why wouldn't you? I mean, they should.

It'd be great if they were ashamed. The windmills? They were like, no, get your clogs out of here. Yeah, this place looks cute as hell. That's just a side note, though. Okay. All right. They talked to the people who were staying at the motel, and although no one had witnessed what happened, people did mention seeing a dark SUV, possibly a Jeep, in the parking lot.

And it wasn't there anymore. possibly a Jeep, in the parking lot, and it wasn't there anymore. Officers alerted Janet's family that she was missing, and they asked the Chandlers to stay home. It was snowy, the roads were icy, the safest bet was for everyone to stay indoors. But Janet's family couldn't do that. Yeah. I believe her mom stayed home to be by the phone, but her father and Janet's brother, Dennis, went out looking for her. Yeah. I believe her mom stayed home to be by the phone, but her father and Janet's brother, Dennis, went out looking for her. Yeah. This was just terrifying. Janet was only 22 years old. She was a music student at Hope College, which was a small private Christian college in Holland,

and she had plans to become a music teacher. She was just working at the motel to make some money. Her parents had tried to talk her out of taking the job because they thought it didn't seem safe, and now she was missing. Right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it sucks. People searched and searched for Janet,

and then at a little after 1 a.m. on February 1st, 1979, roughly 24 hours after she'd gone missing, a snowplow driver who was clearing off part of the interstate near South Haven, Michigan, spotted fresh tire tracks in the snow on the median of the highway. And that seemed weird. Yeah. So they followed the tire tracks and that took them to a kind of wooded area where they found Janet's body. Janet was naked. She had markings on her neck indicating that she'd been strangled, possibly by a rope or a belt. And an autopsy later revealed some sort of sexual activity. So they're not able to say if she was raped?

I mean, they never really are. I mean, you can't tell whether something was consensual. You could probably make some guesses, and I think it's safe to say. But anyway, this was a shocking crime, obviously. Investigators immediately got to work. And even though there were no eyewitnesses to the abduction, they did have a few leads right off the bat. They found out that about 40 minutes before Janet was abducted, a young woman working at a nearby liquor store had gotten off work and was walking to her car when a young white male tried to abduct her. Oh, my gosh.

Mm-hmm. Luckily, she'd been able to escape, and she was able to describe her attacker. He was probably 18 or 19. He had long, stringy brown hair and glasses. So that had to be something. Right. Then there was another lead, possibly related. They found out that about an hour north of Holland, on the night before the abduction,

a four-wheel drive vehicle was stolen from somebody's house. Perhaps that vehicle was the same one that people had spotted in the motel's parking lot. You needed me to make that connection, didn't you? I'll slow it down, Brie. I can tell you're barely keeping up. Investigators talked to all sorts of people trying to figure out who might have wanted to murder Janet. They talked to Janet's family, her friends, her

co-workers, people who were staying at the motel, people who went to school with her. But none of those conversations really went anywhere. And as soon as they thought they had something, it would turn out to be nothing. Yeah. Okay, that stolen four-wheel drive vehicle? Mm-hmm. Turns out the dude's 18-year-old grandson had stolen it. Oh. And when they compared

the tire tracks of that vehicle to the tracks that had been by Janet's body, they weren't a match. Mm-hmm. So I think that

18-year-old fucker learned a big lesson there. I think he probably did. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Whew. Taking your grandpa's car out for a joyride. I'm assuming it probably did. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Taking your grandpa's car out for a joyride. I'm assuming it's grandpa.

I don't know. Then the investigators found out that some dudes were bragging about killing Janet. So they looked into that, and it turns out those dudes had been joking. What? Yeah. Fucking hilarious, right? Yeah. And people say we aren't funny.

Who says that? No one. No one. This investigation went on for months, then years, then decades. What? Mm-hmm.

They wrote up more than 1,000 pages of notes, but the case went cold. This was so interesting to me because it seemed like every investigator had a different theory. Oh. And a bunch of stuff popped up over the years. Like, you know, somebody would take credit

for it. Well, it turns out it couldn't have been them. I know at least one of the investigators thought it had to have been a serial killer. Sure.

Which I don't think is a bad thought. I mean, Roadside Motel. Yeah. It could be just a crime of opportunity. Yeah. Because really, just a crime of opportunity.

Because really, there was nothing that they could find about her life that would indicate that anyone wanted to kill her. The fact that this case went cold was really disturbing. Her family was devastated. Her parents, Jim and Glenna, said that over the years they would attend the weddings and baby showers and celebrations for Janet's friends. And although that was wonderful, it was also incredibly painful. Yeah, a reminder of what they're missing out on. Yeah, absolutely. They wondered if they'd ever know who'd murdered their daughter. Mm-hmm. The one good thing was that even though this was a cold case, it managed to stick with people. And so in September of 2003, with the 25th anniversary of Janet's death just a few

months away, an associate professor at Hope College decided to do something about it. Associate Professor David Schock was teaching a film class at the same college where Janet had been a student, and he told his eight students that they were going to do a documentary film about Janet Chandler's murder. Wow. I just got goosebumps. Really? Yes. Really? Yes. Can you imagine starting a project like that? No.

No. No. Right off the bat, David tried to keep his students' expectations realistic. He told them, do not expect to solve this case. That's not going to happen. Right. The most we can really hope for in the four months that we spend on this is that we remind people about Janet Chandler and maybe we get some new information about her murder. Very early on, when the students first went to interview Janet's parents at their home, David started that day by

telling everyone, the only thing I can promise you is that this is going to be painful. Oh, my gosh. I love that he set the expectations that way. Yeah, absolutely. Because that truly is the only guarantee, especially for her family. 100%. Jim and Glenna were eager to participate in this project. It was clear that they were still in a lot of pain over their daughter's murder.

But they wanted people to know about her, and they wanted answers. So with the students there watching, they opened up a trunk that they hadn't opened in 25 years. It was filled with letters and pictures and mementos. Glenna showed the students Janet's college application. glenna showed the students janet's college application in her application janet had written my goals are first to acquire what god wants for me his desire is for me to acquire my bachelor's degree in music vocational education then my master's degree i hope to teach in a private probably christian school and to also work in theater. So they talked about their daughter's strong Christian faith and her beautiful singing voice. Glenna showed them Janet's heavily underlined Bible.

Really, the only time that Jim seemed to get agitated was when he talked about Janet's job at the Blue Mill Inn. He told the students that one time he visited Janet at work and he really didn't like the looks of some of the people who were hanging out there. Okay, what's that mean? What do you mean? I don't know.

I mean, I, honestly, a shitty motel and she's working the night shift? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. I would not want. Yeah, no. I wouldn't either. Yeah.

Later, when the students interviewed Janet's younger brother, Dennis, he talked about how wonderful Janet was. And he also mentioned that she'd changed a bit after she got the job at the Blue Mill Inn. He wondered if perhaps Janet had started experimenting with things adults do. What does that mean? Drugs? Alcohol? Sex? Yeah. Any of the above? Sure. Okay. Sure. I mean, that's what I would assume. Okay. So the students got a clearer picture of who Janet was, but one of the things that the professor insisted on was that the students research what the area of Michigan had been like in the late 70s when Janet was murdered. So the students went to the library, pulled old newspapers, and they learned that the winter of 1978 was a really rough time for Holland, Michigan. Workers at the local Chemtron paint plant went on strike,

and the higher-ups at the paint plant hired the Wackenhut Security Company to bring in a bunch of security guards who would keep the gates open for the strikebreakers. Okay. Didn't take long for things to get really nasty. The workers who were on strike were obviously not happy with these new guards who'd come in from all over the country. And, you know, the guards were total douchebags. They popped the striking workers' tires, which I'm guessing was not what they were supposed to do. But, hey, what the fuck?

Yeah. Goodness gracious. He's gracious. The students discovered that a lot of these security guards, approximately 70 of them, spent the duration of the strike living at the Blue Mill Inn. And yeah, Janet's dad had been right. The motel was a really rough place. There was a bar next door called the Tap Room, and things got pretty rowdy. There was a lot of drinking, sex, drugs.

You mentioned all three of these, Brandy. I did mention all three of those. You know about adult stuff. Tell us about it. I've read about it in books. I don't know. I heard a story about you drinking a bunch of Fireball. Oh, yeah, I puked in my yard. It was a good time.

The students were kind of surprised to learn that Janet had been working in these conditions. Yeah. I mean, it does seem like a rough place for a – she's 22? Mm-hmm. Yep. 22-year-old girl who lives at home still? No, no. She doesn't live at home.

She has a roommate now. She has a roommate. Okay. Yeah. Just super religious. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you make of it?

I don't know. Yeah. religious yeah what do you make of it i don't know yeah so let's talk a little bit about like how much this didn't match up i mean yeah she's so religious that she mentions it on her college application yeah to a christian that's true it is a christian private school yeah but you know there's a reason you go to the christian private school. That's true. It is a Christian private school, yeah. But, you know, there's a reason you go to the Christian private school, I assume. Yeah. Yeah, she'd always been very religious. As a child, Janet hadn't been allowed to go to sleepovers at people's houses where the parents drank alcohol. Wow.

Yeah. She dated a little bit in high school, but none of those relationships ever got very physical. a little bit in high school, but none of those relationships ever got very physical. And initially, when she'd graduated high school, she'd gone to a local community college for nursing school, but she dropped out because she didn't like the wild students she met on campus. Is that why you dropped out? Yes. Criminal justice.

You're like, these people are doing ibuprofen. Tylenol. Yeah, so what the hell was she doing working the night shift at a rough motel? The students kept talking to people who'd known Janet, and gradually they got to know another side of her. One of her piano teachers described Janet as being emotionally volatile. Another music teacher said that Janet was very talented but had a tough time making friends. But the students really wanted to talk to a woman named Lori Ann Swank. Lori had been Janet's boss at the Blue Mill Inn.

They'd been roommates. They'd been good friends. Lori was actually a year younger. And she was her boss? Yeah, I mean, 21, 22. Wow. That's not how the hierarchy works, is it? Well, no, no, no. It's not that she's younger. It's that she's 21 and she's running this shitty motel. I don't know that it's fair to say she was running it. She might not have been running it, but, you know. Okay. Might have just been, like, the office manager. Maybe. Okay.

I'm fully making something up now. That's just what I would assume. Okay. All right. So, yeah, they'd been really good friends. Lori had actually helped Janet get the job at the motel. And not long after Janet was murdered, Lori left town. Really? Mm-hmm.

Thoughts? Too difficult to be there, like, without her friend? Or, like, skipped town? I don't know. Okay. I do know. You do know because you've researched this case. I'm not coming in that fresh.

Yeah, there are a couple ways to look at it. Yeah. Skip town. How about you're terrified because your friend was brutally murdered at your job? Yes. Anyway. So the students tried to track her down, but they didn't have any luck. But they still made the film.

They titled it Who Killed Janet Chandler? And on January 30, 2004, they showed the film at the Knickerbocker Theater in downtown Holland, Michigan, almost exactly 25 years after Janet was murdered. The theater was packed that night. The film stirred up a lot of emotions. But it didn't really seem to do anything. One of the students later expressed her frustration, saying, we wanted to be able to bring the Chandlers peace,

but all we ended up with were more questions. And yeah, I mean, they hadn't solved the murder. Yeah. They actually might not have even uncovered something new. Right. But that film did pique the interest of Holland Police Chief John Krithoff. He'd been sort of involved in Janet's murder investigation back in 1979. Sort of might be kind of strong.

Was he like a patrolman at that time? Well, and this is such a small, but like he was a very young police officer. So he'd just been kind of like on the edges of it. But just the fact that these students were looking into this case had gotten him interested in it, too. So he pulled all the Janet Chandler files out of storage and he called up the state police and yada, yada, yada. A detective was assigned to this case. And just like that, they had a task force looking into Janet Chandler's murder. Wow.

And now it's time for an ad. Okay. Doodaloo. And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Left you on a bit of a cliffhanger there, didn't I? Yes. Anyway, they never figured it out and that's the end of it. That's not the end of it. I wish it was. No, I don't really wish it was. It's just, here we go. No, of course not. Yeah, now you're going to get to the really bad part, right? Okay. Well, it's going to take them a while. These things aren't fast, you know. No, of course not. Here we go. Yeah, now you're going to get to the really bad part, right? Okay. Well, it's going to take them a while. These things aren't fast, you know. No, of course not. Not like you.

No, that's rude. Okay, so one of the first things they did was try to figure out who Janet was on a deeper level. And they discovered that Janet, just like everyone else on this earth, was multifaceted. Oh, my God. Multifaceted? I think earth was multifaceted. Oh, my God. Multifaceted? I think you mean multifaceted. Nope. Just like everyone else in this world multifaceted.

She had a secret life. Was she living a secret life? No. No. All right. We'll get to what I think was going on. But no, I don't think. I'm sure some people would say secret life no no all right well we'll get to what i think was going on but no i i don't think i'm sure some people would say secret life i do not think that at all that's what the case is here they discovered that yeah for the majority of her life janet had been very sheltered she'd been shocked in 1974 when she first went to nursing school and discovered that people were smoking pot at college parties.

That was me expressing shock. Yeah, we know. You're multifaceted. I am. In that you are surprised by everything. And curiously, not surprised by some things. That's right. You're a complicated woman, Brandi.

That's exactly right. You're a complicated woman, Brandi. That's exactly right. They also found out that that same year, during Janet's first year of college, and I'm going to quote directly from the article in Glamour. Okay. A middle-aged man she met seduced her into having sex for the first time. Or she just, okay, all right. What?

Maybe she just wanted to have sex. Well, okay, so apparently Janet dated this much older man for about a year. Okay. She hid the relationship from her parents. And when one of the investigators tracked him down, they found a very old man who was ashamed of, quote, taking advantage of her crush on him. Which is like, no, dude, you led the charge. Yeah, there's a power dynamic there. Yeah. So I am grossed out by that.

She was, what, 18, 19? Yeah, it's not great. No. Yeah. by that. She was, what, 18, 19? Yeah, it's not great. No. Yeah. A police officer ended up tracking down Janet's old boss slash

roommate, Lori Swank. Lori was living in, oh my gosh, how do people live in towns that you can't fucking pronounce? Nescopic? Nescopic. N-E-S-C-O P-E-C-K. Nescopic? Soundsescopic. N-E-S-C-O-P-E-C-K.

Nescopic? Sounds like a procedure. It does. I can't eat for 24 hours. It does kind of sound like a prescription, too. The doctor's going to give me a nescopic. Anyway, it's in Pennsylvania. New England has all the fucking towns with all the extra letters.

Yeah, there's a lot of letters in there. Okay. That's how geniuses like me can say Greenwich. And no one laughs. fucking towns with all the extra letters. Yeah, there's a lot of letters in there. Mm-hmm. Okay. That's how geniuses like me can say Greenwich. And no one laughs. And no one judges. That's right. Because it's a mistake we've all made. All made.

Yeah. Uh-huh. Anyway, she was working as a nursing assistant at a hospital in Nescopic. Uh-huh. Nescopic. No idea. Nescopic for sure sounds like a procedure. So the investigator asked her about Janet and Lori was like, oh, yeah, you know, Janet was, you know, fun loving, you know.

And the officer showed her a picture of Janet hanging out with a couple of guards at the Blue Mill Inn. And suddenly Lori got a lot less chipper. She was like, well, you know, they were kind of a wild group of people. They like to party. And honestly, Janet hooked up with some of the guards. So did I. Okay. In fact, one time I had to reprimand Janet

for using the motel's display suite to have sex. Oh. Yeah, so maybe Janet had kind of a wild side. Yeah, maybe she did. One of Janet's friends explained it this way. Janet had lived her whole life following all the rules. And when she started dating that middle-aged guy and having premarital sex, it's like she broke one rule. Yeah.

Realized. The world did not end. The world did not end. I did not immediately go straight to hell. Yeah. And so why not break some more rules? Yeah. I think that makes total sense.

See, that's what, like, I know some people will take the double life aspect of it, but I'm like, you're just a few years out of high school. Yeah. Obviously there's going to be a period where you rebel. And just

from my own experiences in college, like the people who go kind of a little more wild with stuff, it's usually just because they grew up in really strict households and they're on their own for the first time. So, yeah, I think that's what this was. Honestly, I think if Janet had been allowed to live a while longer, you know, I think she would have done what a lot of people do is just like calm down. Settle down a bit. Sure. Yeah, absolutely.

Go through her wild streak and then. Or not. Just keep being wild. Who knows? Who knows and who cares, right? For the investigators, this seemed like they had something here. They decided that they needed to talk to more of the people who'd been at the Blue Mill Inn when Janet was killed. And they didn't do that during the original investigation?

No, they absolutely did. Okay. But they didn't get much from it. Okay. All right. I think they're going to get a bunch more, 30 years. How many years have I got? Oh, you think they should just fuck off?

Well, no, I don't. What an asshole. Wow, Brandi, thanks a lot. Maybe you should go give pep talks to all the cold case detectives. No, I'm not going to do that. Sure, been a while. Good fucking luck. You think you're going to do something that the original investigators didn't?

And then the cold case investigators cry. Right. They go to the victims' families. They're like, sorry, Brandy came. Brandy said we can't do it. We were all fired up trying to get some justice, but Brandy was like, I don't know, gay. Wow. Wow.

You're reminding me a little bit of my mother right now. Really? Not in this aspect. But my mom can never take a compliment. Oh, yeah. And so she was talking about this thing and how someone had complimented her. And she's like, but, you know, obviously they say that to everybody. I was like, yeah.

Whoa. That's that Sherry Pitts confidence. Yeah. There we go. Woo. So, yeah, Brandy, thanks a lot. As you mentioned, this would be very tough for several reasons. For one, this case was very old.

Yes. You should probably give up right now. Don't you agree? No, that's not what I meant. Yeah, we all know. Terrible, terrible. Yeah, people's memories are terrible. Yes.

But also, the strike at the paint plant had ended on February 14th, 1979, roughly two weeks after Janet was murdered. And when that strike ended, most of the guards who'd been staying at the motel just scattered. They went back home to wherever home was. And who knows where they were now, all these years later. Yeah. But investigators slowly started tracking people down. They were like, who cares what Brandy says? We got to keep going. It's not what I meant. I was trying to clarify if they had already spoken to these people because, yes,

the passage of time does not bode well for people's memories. It's true. It's true. Although something as big as this, you're probably bound to remember. Yeah. I would agree. Yeah. All right. Let's talk to the people. Okay, let's do it. But here's the thing. They started talking to people and those conversations went basically nowhere.

The former security guards all kind of had the same story. Okay, this was like more than 20 years ago. We were working 12-hour shifts. We'd work, eat, and sleep. Yeah. Repeat. I can't stop thinking about what she was overheard saying while she was on the phone. Don't take it all, sir.

Sir, yeah. Like, if somebody's robbing you, I don't think you say that. No? I don't know. That's an interesting question. So they thought that meant for sure a robbery, and she was just trying to get the guy to not take everything in the register. Or maybe he was trying to take something from her purse, and she was saying, please don't take it all. Maybe.

What do you make of it? I have no idea. It just seems like such an odd thing. Where is your detective hat? I don't have it, obviously. You have your cigar. I do. It's a pipe.

Thank you. Oh, excuse me. Blasphemy. Okay. Everyone, Brandi is holding an imaginary cigar. It's a pipe. I've got asthma. I'm not up to speed on this stuff. I don't...

Okay, I don't know. May I just say how much I appreciate that when you go into detective mode, you go old-timey and not modern. Yeah, no, I'm not taking my sunglasses off. I just... I have no respect for you. No. I'm straight to Sherlock Holmes.

I've got so much tweed on right now. Elbow patches, because of course she's worn them slick. Okay, okay. Let's stop and think. What's the least respectable vape flavor for a detective? Fruity cereal. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Okay. For real. Can you fucking imagine a detective comes to speak to you and you're like, oh, good. Someone's on the case and they bust out. Do you mind if I vape? Yeah. It's Fruity Pebbles. Fruity Pebbles. Someone's on the case and they bust out. Do you mind if I vape? Yeah. It's Fruity Pebbles. Fruity Pebbles.

They'll be like, well, fuck. This thing is never getting solved. So the guards are all saying kind of the same thing. It was a long time ago. We worked 12-hour shifts. We barely knew the gal who worked the front desk and the night shift. And that all sounds pretty believable. God, I was just thinking if I'm at a register, whatever situation they have, I'm sure I don't feel like a hotel has like a register, but a cash drawer or something like that.

Yeah. And somebody's like taking the money. I'm going to let them take whatever the fuck they want. I'm not going to ask them to not take it all. Brandy. What? We have established on this very podcast that if you were in any kind of role like this, you'd be the person who gets fired up and tries to chase him down.

I don't think I would. No? No. No. I would just be like, yes, take whatever you want. Can I get you anything from back here? Would you like to? I've got some extra pillow lints.

I've got, you know, what can I? Would you like some tiny toiletries? Let me bag them up. And the way they catch the guy is there's a trail of tiny lotions. Yeah, exactly. Because I have cut a tiny slit in the bottom of the bag and he doesn't know. But see, this falls into my original theory that you care too much. You care too much.

So I've seen too much stuff. I would not follow anybody out of a store. I wouldn't ask somebody. Like, I would give them everything in the drawer. We're not talking about modern day Brandy. I know. We're talking about 22-year-old Brandy. Even then, I think I would just be like, take whatever.

Take it all. Not, please don't take it all, sir. Okay. That is, that, I just, like, that keeps playing in my brain. All right. All right. All right. I just, you know, I picture you when you worked at Walgreens, and if someone had come in and stolen all those lotion warmers, I feel like you would have had something to say. I don't think I would have.

Why don't they make those anymore? I know. Those were awesome. That's a wonderful thing. Everyone, I know we've discussed this at length on the podcast, but when Brandy worked at Walgreens back in the day, was it my 16th birthday? Yeah, I think it was. 17th birthday? Yeah.

She got me a lotion warmer. Yeah. You've not experienced luxury until either you have a hot tub, you have a circle drive, or right before you hop in the shower, you plug in your lotion warmer. Now, the lotion would get a little crusty around the edges, but you got to stir it up. Mm-hmm. Little darling. Stir it up. Anyway, I'm glad we took the time.

Great. So they're doing all these interviews, and oftentimes the investigators would play a DVD of that student film to try to jog the guy's memories or, I don't know, maybe give him a guilt trip in case they were hiding something. The film turned out to actually be very helpful. Okay. Because one of the guys, as he watched the film, was like, oh, my gosh, I took that picture of Janet. Huh. As it turned out, this dude loved taking pictures. Always loved taking pictures.

And so the investigators asked him, well, do you have any more pictures from around that time? Did he? Yes. He had a photo album. The photo album was like a gift because it proved that the rumors they'd heard about the Blue Mill Inn were true. The photos showed a lot of partying. In one photo, Janet was on someone's lap wearing a security guard uniform. Oh, wow.

Yeah, clearly these guards hadn't just been working, eating, and sleeping. And clearly they did know the motel staff pretty well. Okay, so just as an aside, what's your face? I got puzzle pieces in my brain and I'm trying to put them together. Take a hit on that, babe. Pick it out.

I'll stick to my pipe. Thank you. It's one of those ones with bubbles in it. It's a bubble pipe, yes, obviously. Can you imagine me smoking tobacco? Absolutely not. Hmm. I'm trying to think what would be the weirdest thing. Incense.

Incense? Incense. What if I had incense in my pipe? Oh, well, that would be, yeah. Then it's like, okay, well, Brandy doesn't know how these things work. But I mean, like, if you just all of a sudden started smoking, what would be the weirdest thing for me to start smoking?

Probably meth, don't you think? Well, that's not exactly where I was going. I was like, I was thinking more, you know, within the bounds of normal human society. Like, cigarettes, cigars, chewing tobacco.

I wasn't jumping to meth. I love that you're like, no, none of that, thank you, but maybe meth. I like my teeth too much to do any of those things. You are very into your teeth. But how badly do you

want your house clean? Because I remember those Rachel Leakwood commercials. I was trying to figure out where that was going. Okay, so just as an aside, because, you know, they're looking at all angles of this thing. At one point, they thought they had solved this case. They did. Yeah. They had their eye on a convicted rapist.

They went to interview him, and it seemed like he was on the verge of confessing. And then he did. To a different rape? To a different murder. Oh, my gosh. Right. So that's, I mean, obviously, that's great. Yeah. Not for this particular case. Yes. But back to the security guards. One guy had stood out to investigators

from the very beginning. It was the guy who'd originally called the police about Janet going missing. His name was Robert Michael Lynch. And they discovered that he was just a little bit different from the other guards. For one thing, he'd been 39 at the time of the murder, which made him a lot older than a lot of the other guards. So he wasn't really in the social scene as much. Also, he burped while he talked. And people were like, Robert, that's disgusting. I myself would never do that. Never. Not the Grace Kelly of podcasting.

No, no. Oh, my gosh. How does it feel that I'm the Grace Kelly of podcasting and you're talking about smoking meth? I mean, I'm talking about how I would have. It's a real Burton Arnie situation. Is it? Which one am I? I don't know. We have to decide.

I think Ernie would be more likely to smoke meth, don't you think? No way! Bert's way more likely. No, Bert's more uptight, right? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe he wants to forget about his unibrow. Oh.

Okay, I'm with you. Sometimes it's the uptight, anxious ones. Sometimes doing the puh-puh pigeon isn't enough, and you've got to turn to drugs. I can tell by the look on your face that you never watched that episode of Sesame Street. What is doing the puh-puh pigeon? Oh, that's not sexual. I know it's not sexual. It's a dance.

Oh, okay. And I can do the dance. I'll wait. There's no time. There's no time. Doing the puh-puh pigeon. I was about to say all night long, but surely Bert didn't say that. I don't think Bert's doing it all night long.

No. There's a time and a place. Unless you're on meth, you could probably do the pigeon all night long. Well, maybe that's what it's actually about. I think we uncovered something big here. Oh, my gosh. You know, it turns out your imaginary cigar. No, pipe.

It's a pipe, Christian. I'm so sorry. I told you a couple days ago that I think being sick has made me stupid. Yeah, you had serious brain fog. Maybe not made me stupid, but because I don't know that I was working with a full set. Yes, you were. But yeah, my capacities are pretty diminished. Okay, so they tracked Robert down.

He was living in Three Oaks, Michigan. You like that place? I mean, I was about to say. Is it a tree? I was about to say, I do like a lot of the city names in Michigan, if you must know. It's the natural state. I actually don't think they're called the natural state. No, isn't that Arkansas?

I think it's Arkansas. But Michigan, you know, they've got... Aren't they the Great Lakes state? Or the land of 10,000 lakes? We should probably stop. Lando Lakes Butter. People are shouting. People are shouting.

Listen, the bottom line is I think that, you know, Michigan's got a lot of beauty. Oh, the show me state. Yeah. What's Kansas? The sunflower state. Okay. Yeah. Or the land of Oz. And you

have to say it that way. Hey, we have big stuff going on in Kansas right now. We're voting on new license plates. Are you really? Yes, because they just like debuted a new license plate. And everyone hated it? Everybody hated it. Well, it was golden yellow, which is Mizzou colors, which Missouri and Kansas, like border war.

Yeah, so people were angry. And the governor had to come out and be like, okay, we hear you. We'll do a vote. Wow. Yeah. So people were angry and the governor had to come out and be like okay we hear you we'll do a vote. Wow. Yeah. Don't you feel kind of sorry for the person who was so excited

about their license plate? They were like mom I got to design the new license plates. Yeah. And now everyone hates you. Yep. Well there you go.

Anyway I voted on the license plate so. Yeah it's important to vote for really big issues like this one right here. Okay, great. So this guy had a grown son and daughter, and he and his wife had opened a beauty school together. Oh, my gosh.

I know. I would not have expected that. No. But there you have it. Also, this guy didn't look very well groomed. I'm just saying. The preferred term is cosmetology school. Okay.

Well, that's – they called it a beauty school. You want me to lecture these people who own a beauty school? Why not call it beauty school? Because you get a cosmetology license for completing it. Well, you'd have to take a test, but you're learning cosmetology, not beauty. I hate the term beauty school. Why?

I hate it. Why? I don't know. I've never liked it. You're making people more beautiful. What's not to like about that? Cosmetology school. Explain yourself, man.

It's the preferred terminology. OK. OK. I think beauty school sounds. Does it sound less prestigious? Yeah, I think so. There we go. We found it out. No, like it's not just me, like in the industry, people don't call it. Sure. Sure. I got you. I was just trying to figure out why it rubbed you the wrong way. Yeah. I am going to open up my own ugly school. Okay. And you will be rejected when you inevitably apply. Okay.

So he and his wife had opened a school together. Yeah. A cosmetology school. Sure. Hair school even is good. Hair school a cosmetology school. Sure. Hair school, even, is good. Hair school is better than beauty school? Yes. Beauty school is just a very dated term.

Well, yeah, of course. Beauty school dropout. Yeah. That's why I like it. Okay. Go back to high school. I also don't like the term beautician. For the same reason?

Yeah, it's just very dated. Wow. Cosmetologist. Hairstylist. Stylist. I think it's very interesting that when you do your detective work, you like to go old-timey. But when you do your hairstyling work. You go

modern timey. And you shan't go back. That's right. Okay. Okay. So Robert and his wife have this business. What's the business? Don't ask any fucking questions.

For whatever reason the investigators were very intrigued by the fact that Robert was a heavy drinker. Okay. The Glamour article really goes into this. They theorize that maybe he drank

to cope with bad memories. What he'd done. Yeah. Okay. I wonder if these fellas have ever heard of a thing called alcoholism. I mean, to me that—see, now we're talking about things that seem outdated.

Yeah. To me, that seems outdated when someone's drinking heavily and over the course of many years. Right. And you don't think, well, maybe they're— They suffered from alcoholism. Yeah. Absolutely. Instead, it's—

Some kind of substance use disorder. Yeah. Okay. Maybe he was really upset because people kept calling it a beauty school. Maybe. He was like, it's a cosmetology school. I will have you know that I went to a hairstyling academy. Yeah, that sounds fancy as shit.

Did anyone call it beauty school? And if so, where did you bury that person? All the time. Yeah. What'd you bury that person? Oh, yeah, people call it beauty school all the time. Uh-huh. Yeah. What'd you do to them? Nothing. Oh.

I noticed you've been drinking heavily. Drinking to forget? Yeah. Thanks. That's true. Anyway, so they're like, ooh, he drinks. But the investigators went out to Robert's house several times for interviews and, you know, they went again and again and again, each time hoping that they were getting closer to something.

Yeah. And finally, in the summer of 2005, Robert admitted that he'd been intimately involved with Janet. Sure. And then he dropped a bombshell. What was the bombshell? Well, okay, first of all, you said sure. Yeah, I mean, I think that she probably was intimately involved with some of these. Well, sure.

But again, these guys are all kind of trying to be like, what? I don't even, I barely remember. Okay. All right, fine. So he said this whole time, I barely remember her. And then now, okay, we were intimate. Yeah. Okay. So then said this whole time, I barely remember her. And then now, okay, we were intimate. Yeah. Okay.

So then he drops the bombshell. He said that on the night of her murder, Janet had been at a party with a bunch of security guards. And the party went haywire. What does that mean? Exactly. The investigators were like, what? Because this was the first they'd ever heard of a party on the night of Janet's murder. So they asked more questions and, oh, man, oh, my gosh.

Suddenly Robert's memory got really fuzzy. Yeah, sure. But for whatever reason, Robert kept consenting to interviews with the police. Wow. And I just spat really hard. I don't know if you saw it. I didn't see it. You could have gotten away with it. I thought you were being really polite.

No, I didn't see it. I thought it was all that cosmetology school training. Do they teach you how to be polite in cosmetology school? No, I don't think so. Do they teach you how to be polite in cosmetology school? No, I don't think so. Maybe that should be like any degree, regardless. You have a little course on politeness. Yeah, I think we did like a course on customer service.

Well, sure, sure. And like, don't bring up abortion while you're... Sex, religion, politics, all off topic, all off the table. You cannot talk about any of those. I know I told you this. In the salon. But I can never forget. I shouldn't have a t-shirt made.

The time I went to a new hairstylist when I was living in Elizabeth City. This was my first time with her. She asked me my opinion on abortion. What the fuck? It was in the news at the time, which it's always in the news, but I was kind of like, oh boy.

But at the same time, it's like, well, fine, I'll tell you. And I thought I did a good job of just being like, yeah, my support, you know, the right to choose. Yeah, pro-choice. She cried. She cried. She told me stories, oh, my God, about her friend had an abortion. Oh, boy.

And she regretted it. Her friend doesn't exist. Well, here's the thing. That's a bullshit story. Here's the thing. Even if the friend does exist, you know what? I regret that I ate a whole bag of Cheetos. Yeah.

Take the Cheetos out of every grocery store across this land. Like, okay, that doesn't mean we don't, that we all don't get to Cheetos. Yeah. Take the Cheetos out of every grocery store across this land. Like, okay, that doesn't mean we don't, that we all don't get to choose anyhow. Oh, that was so uncomfortable. It's fine, if an abortion is not for you,

don't have one. I just could not believe that she straight up asked me my opinion and was so unprepared that she cried. Holy shit. I'm biting my tongue right now Why?

We can cut whatever Fucking pro-lifers Man they're so fucking weird Randy that's the best thing You've ever said Because Normally when you're like Okay I've got something to say. It's never actually that controversial.

But like. I just don't get it. I just don't. Well, let me cry and tell you about it. One time my friend made a decision she didn't like. Okay. And now no one can make that same decision ever. Yeah.

Holy shit. Let me tell you about this woman that just had to flee Texas for an abortion. We don't want to hear about her. So that she would survive and hopefully be able to have children in the future. No, fuck her. We don't care about that. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Mm-hmm. Leave people the fuck alone. Leave them alone. If you don't want an abortion, don't fucking get one. Well, there were a lot of ways that I envisioned this story going today. I didn't envision the abortion talk. Yeah, no. I didn't envision the impassioned speech about cosmetology school. From a beautician, mind you.

Cosmetologist. Excuse me. You don't let... Oh. What? I mean, did you even watch Steel Magnolias? Yeah. What about Grease?

Yeah, I've seen it all. And that didn't give you a love? No. She's got a heart of stone, gang. I don't know what to tell you. I think it undersells the profession. There's so much chemistry involved in being a cosmetologist. But see, I think it all depends on how vain the person is.

Because I am very vain. And I'm like beauty highest respect in all the land all right now this guy's beauty school I don't know he looked very unkempt to me but as we've already established he was drinking to forget not yeah because of any kind of, you know, problem. Anyhow, here we go. Are you glad we had the abortion talk? Am I going to anger the pro-lifers? Of course you will. I don't fucking care.

That's fine. Oh, look at your big set of balls. My goodness. We're going on break. She's like, boom, she's walking away from the explosion. Gang. I don't think this is an explosion. I don't.

It shouldn't be. I think the majority of people. Yes, it's true. Yes, are pro-abortion. And even if it wasn't the majority of people, people ought to know. Anyway, it ought to come from us. So Robert keeps consenting to these interviews with the police. And they kept coming back.

And one time they brought a copy of that film. They specifically showed him the... Oh, my gosh. Can you hear the stuff happening in my nose? No. Oh, never mind. I'll take it back. I take it back.

There's nothing happening here. Don't pay attention. I'm having all kinds of sinus issues. No, you made no noises. Nothing happened. All right. They specifically showed him the end of the film where Janet's dad is crying, saying essentially, I just want to know what happened. Yeah.

And that's when Robert finally broke. And that's when Robert finally broke. It took several months of interviews, but Robert gradually gave them a fuller picture of what happened to Janet that night. And they used that information to talk to other people who filled in some of the gaps. And that's how they found out how Janet Chandler was killed. How? Tell us. Okay. I do want to do a quick thing here. We don't do trigger warnings just because it's a true crime podcast. I mean, I feel like you know what you're getting into to a degree, but this is really bad sexual assault stuff. So if that's not your thing,

you've certainly heard enough with the abortion talk in the cosmetology school. So just stop there and forget this episode ever happened to you. Okay, great. All right, here we go. heard enough with the abortion talk in the cosmetology school. So just stop there and forget this episode ever happened to you. Okay, great. All right, here we go. This next part is a bit of a mashup of what Robert said and what other people confirmed. Here it goes. On January 30th, 1979, Janet was working the night shift at the Blue Mill Inn. 1979, Janet was working the night shift at the Blue Mill Inn. That night, one of the maids confronted Janet. There was this really heated exchange.

The maid was super pissed because she was certain that Janet had been secretly hooking up with her boyfriend, who was one of the security guards. Oh, okay. Everyone heard Janet and the maid arguing loudly that night. And Lori Swank, Janet's roommate slash boss slash friend, wasn't too mad that Janet was getting yelled at because she was mad at Janet, too. Turns out Lori had a crush on another one of the guards, a guy named Arthur Carl Pava. He was the supervisor of the guards. Janet and Carl had used to hook up, but Janet had broken it off, and now she was hooking up with some of the other guys, I guess.

But Lori wanted to be with Carl, and she was super jealous that Carl and all these other guys were pining over Janet. Right. So what did she do? She went to Carl and told him that, you know, oh, Janet's no good. She's been hooking up with all these other guys. A bunch of slut-shaming stuff. And Carl got pissed off and decided that Janet was a slut. No word on what he thought about all the guys who were sleeping around.

Right. Uh-huh, yeah. And that's a really important point. Because it seems like everyone was sleeping with everyone else at this place. But it wasn't okay for beautiful Janet to do it. Janet was very pretty. She was very popular. And yeah, it seems like she was playing the field.

But again, that wasn't okay for her to do. Right. So several of the guards decided to get even with Janet. They created a plan, led by Arthur Carl Pava, to gang rape Janet to teach her a lesson. Oh my, what the fuck? Yeah. A lot of people knew about this plan. And they were fine with it.

So, just before 2 a.m. on January 31st, 1979, one of the guards called up Robert Lynch, and they told him that they needed his help getting Janet out of the motel office. He went to the lobby, where he encountered another one of the guards inviting Janet to a surprise party, a party that was being held in her honor. The guy put gauze over her eyes and duct tape over that and walked her out to one of their cars. Robert claims that Janet didn't struggle as she was being blindfolded. It's possible she really believed that this was a party she was being invited to. It's possible she really believed that this was a party she was being invited to. It's possible she was very afraid. I mean, who knows? Who knows?

It's possible Robert's full of shit. Earlier I mentioned that there weren't any eyewitnesses to this crime. That was not true. People watched as Janet was led blindfolded to the vehicle. They knew what was about to happen to her. People also knew that Janet was being taken to a guest house located on Howard Avenue, which was on the grounds of the paint plant. It was this guest house with views of the water,

and it was occupied by Arthur Carl Pava, the supervisor of the guards. When Robert called police that night, he, of course, only told them that Janet had been abducted. He didn't tattle on his friends. I think it's really interesting that you thought that what she'd allegedly said sounded weird. It sounded weird because it was totally made up. Totally made up, yeah. After he made that call, he got some sleep, and the next day he went

to work. His shift ended at 6 p.m. that day. Once his shift was over, he went to the guest house where he knew Janet was being held captive. He walked in, and it was quite a party. Approximately 25 people were there, men and women. Oh, my gosh. Janet was there, naked. Her hands were bound behind her. Her mouth was duct-taped shut. Her eyes were glassy. Robert assumed she was on drugs.

She wasn't. She was traumatized. Yeah. Probably in a state of shock. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I have in this script here who knows what she'd been through until that point. Truth is, a lot of people know.

A lot of people know. Yeah. I don't know, but a lot of people know. And they're out there just living their lives. Yeah. What Robert described next was horrific. One of the guards tied a belt around Janet's neck and several men. It's hard to know how many. One source said six. Another said 10 or 15.

Raped Janet and choked her with the belt. Oh, my gosh. Arthur Carl Pava was at the center of it directing who would rape her next, telling her, you're gonna die, bitch. Oh my gosh, this poor woman. Yeah. All around them, people cheered for the rapists and insulted Janet. Janet's roommate slash boss slash supposed friend, Lori, was present. Was there? Oh, yeah. So were other women from the motel. As Janet was being raped,

Lori called her a bitch. A guard named Ron Warrick took pictures of the gang rape. And at some point, amidst all this horror, Robert says that as he was raping Janet and strangling her, Janet Chandler died. At this point, there was a bit of a panic. Some of the guards wrapped her body in a tarp, and Robert dumped her body on the side of the highway. And for more than 25 years, nobody said anything.

That is shocking. That there were that many people present. It's disgusting. Yeah. That is horrific. Mm-hmm. Okay, so let's pause. Why do you think nobody said anything for 25 years?

So there's just so many people. I mean, they're guilty by association. Nobody wants to implicate themselves. Don't you think? I just cannot imagine not saying i can't either i can't either but by saying you witnessed that you're implicating yourself it's self-preservation isn't it i would assume yeah so yeah janet chandler hadn't been murdered by some serial killer or one awful person. She'd been murdered by a bunch of people in front of cheering witnesses with other partygoers downstairs fully aware of what was happening.

And people she knew and trusted. I mean, her boss and roommate and supposed good friend is there. Right. I'm sorry. Even if you're not friends with these people, how – this is so evil. Yes. You would never suspect that anything like this was going to happen. No.

Never suspect that anything like this was going to happen. No. I got to say, you know, I feel like in a lot of cold cases, people go to the serial killer angle just because it's like, well, you know, who knows? Yeah. And, of course, that's usually not the answer. Mm-hmm. Of course, that's usually not the answer. But to me, a serial killer feels so much more likely than this, that like 25 people knew about it. God knows how many people participated.

No kidding. Holy shit. It had taken the task force two and a half years. They'd traveled to 18 states, conducted more than 300 interviews. But they felt like they finally knew what had happened to her. Now this was in the prosecutor's hands. And wow, this was going to be a difficult one. They had no DNA evidence.

They knew that Ronald Warwick had taken pictures of the gang rape that night, but he said he'd given that roll of film to another guard who'd said he'd pass it on to Arthur Carl Pava. Those photos were never found. All they had in this case were a handful of very old eyewitness accounts. All they had in this case were a handful of very old eyewitness accounts. But, you know, it had to be enough. Man, this is going to be rough to prosecute. Yeah. What do you think you do?

I have no idea. Do you get... Oh, boy. You don't have to guess. Okay. In 2006, Robert Lynch was charged with first-degree murder. And later that year, the DA filed first-degree murder charges against Lori Swank, along with four of the former security guards. They were 57-year-old Carl Pava of Muskegon, Michigan, 50-year-old Freddie Parker of Charleston, West Virginia, 60-year-old James Bubba Nelson of Rand, West Virginia, and 56-year-old Anthony Tony Williams of Boscobo, Wisconsin.

By this point, these people had gone 28 years, living their lives. Obviously, most of them had moved away. But Carl, who was originally from Massachusetts, had stayed in Holland after the strike was over. He'd gotten married. He'd had a family. He'd run for the board of commissioners. He'd run for the Board of Commissioners. Later, after he got divorced, he moved to Muskegon, Michigan, into an apartment just a block away from Janet's grave.

Wow. Mm-hmm. The prosecution really had to strategize about how they were going to approach this case. They offered Robert Lynch a deal. I was going to say, you've got to offer somebody a deal here. And he took it. In exchange for his confession and cooperation, he was able to plead guilty to second-degree murder. He received 25 to 40 years in prison.

Lori Ann Swank was also offered a plea deal, and she took it. Okay, this is what I was going back and forth in in my head when I was coming up with what you do. Okay, this is what I was going back and forth in in my head when I was coming up with what you do. I think you pick whoever seems the most trustworthy. The jury's going to buy the best and offer them a deal. Right. I do think Lori's will probably make a big impact on the jury because she was close to Janet. And she didn't rape Janet. Correct.

It's like. She didn't stop it from happening. Yeah. I mean, it's, everyone is shitty. Yes. Yeah. And I think it's a, it's a thing of determining who's the least shitty and who's going to do okay on the stand. Yeah. In exchange for her cooperation, she pled guilty to second-degree murder, but she would only receive her sentence after she testified at any upcoming trials, which I think is so smart.

That's so smart. Michigan State Attorney General Donna Pendergast was not in a good spot. General Donna Pendergast was not in a good spot. You might think that Robert Lynch would be the star witness for this case, but by this point he had alcohol-related dementia. So, I mean, you really couldn't have this whole thing rest on his shoulders. So she decided that this case would have to rely largely on the testimony of the people who had witnessed Janet's gang rape and murder, done nothing to stop it, and not said anything about it for 28 years. Holy shit. They were Lori Ann Swank, Cheryl Ruiz, Diane Marsman, and Ron Wurrick. And, I mean, obviously there are more people.

One infuriating aspect of this case that they talked about on Dateline was that clearly a lot of people were involved in this crime. A lot of people witnessed this crime. But with the passage of time and no DNA evidence, the prosecution was stuck with only pursuing their absolute strongest cases. The murder trial kicked off in the winter of 2007 the four men carl pava freddie parker james bubba nelson anthony tony williams were tried at the same time which pissed them off but they're the worst people on earth so who cares yeah the trial really came down to the prosecution putting up eyewitnesses and the defense doing their best to poke holes in the testimony. In my opinion, Lori Swank was the most candid of all the eyewitnesses.

So we're going to start with her. Lori talked about how in January of 1979, she had a crush on Carl. But Janet was in a sexual relationship with him. And Lori was jealous. Jealous, yeah. Janet was so much more relationship with him and Lori was jealous. Jealous, yeah. Janet was so much more popular than she was. So in an effort to get back at Janet, she told Carl that Janet was hooking up with all these other guys. Here's how that testimony went.

Prosecutor, why did you give this information to Mr. Pava, Lori Swank? To anger him, make him think less of Janet, prosecutor. How would he react, Lori? He would get angry, frustrated. He got upset, prosecutor. Did he ever say anything that he intended to do in regards to this information? Lori, he would take care of it? Wow. Lori then testified about the plan to lure Janet out of the Blue Mill Inn and attack her.

She testified that she went to the guest house that night to watch Janet get raped. She said that multiple men raped Janet and other people, herself included, cheered them on. Here's how that testimony went. Prosecutor What were you doing? Lori I was looking at Janet I called her a bitch I encouraged the activity Prosecutor Ms. Swank, I have to ask you

because I know the jury is thinking this right now What was going through your head? No fucking shit Why, for God's sake, were you participating in this? Lori No fucking shit. No kidding! Lori, I can't. After a while, Lori said, All of a sudden I heard somebody say, She's dead. She was motionless. Prosecutor, what did you do?

Lori, I ran. Cheryl Ruiz and Diane Marsman, who had been maids at the Blue Mill Inn, also testified. They said that they had watched Janet being gang raped. I believe Cheryl was the one who had gotten into the argument with Janet that night. I don't know that for sure, but she mentioned in her testimony that she was dating one of the guards. Also, Cheryl's testimony is available online. She gives Michelle Duggar vibes. Really? Yes.

First of all, she has those weird bangs. Oh, yeah. Which, why? Dear God, why? Yeah. Also, she... Oh. What's wrong, Brandy?

No, I hate it. Is there something disturbing about a middle-aged woman who talks like a little child and maybe smiles inappropriately? It's very uncomfortable. Like when she's testifying about witnessing a gang rape? Oh, my gosh. I will – I don't really want to give any benefit of the doubt. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe in some situations people act weird, like when they're testifying in a situation like this.

Maybe people don't handle stress well, but fuck. Also, fuck her. Yeah. Also, brush your bangs. No one needs feathered bangs. feather banks. So I'm kind of more mad now that Lori got a deal because she's

like the catalyst to all of this. But a big role in starting the stirring of the pot. Yeah, she stirred the pot. I guess I'm less, I don't even know how to say it. It's not that I'm less angry with her.

It's more that like you've got Robert and Lori, to me, are at least being honest. And my personal opinion, they're the only ones being completely honest. Robert, honestly, that guy was so drunk that night, continues to get so drunk. It really would not shock me if he was not the one who killed her. But he has convinced himself that he did. That he is. Yeah. Lori, I'm sure she stirred the pot, stirred the pot, stirred the pot.

But also, I'm sorry, a lot of people will try to, you know, slut shame, do whatever. you know, slut shame, do whatever. It's next level when someone organizes a gang rape. Yeah. And finds all these people who are more than happy to participate in it. So I feel like if the truth really did fully come out, I think Lori's role would seem a little less than it does right now. What do you think of that?

I don't know. I mean, maybe. But she said, I wanted him to take care of the situation. What do you mean by that? He said he would take care of it. She wanted to get him jealous to stop pining over Janet. Okay. I'm not defending her.

I feel like she's just... Oh, God. I'm just saying, Janet thought this woman was her friend. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Can we get back to Cheryl's testimony? Yeah, tell us about Cheryl's testimony. Cheryl said that she knew the men were going to attack Janet, but, quote, I didn't think it was going to be this rough.

I didn't think they were going to go this extreme. Yeah, who could have predicted that a gang rape. Could go badly. That a gang rape. Could go badly. That a man yelling, I'm going to kill you, bitch, would then kill her. Yeah. She said she saw someone pour hot wax on Janet.

She saw others force alcohol down her throat. She identified the four defendants as having raped Janet. She said she remembered people egging each other on as Janet was being raped, saying, fuck her to death. This is fucking horrible. It's, yeah. Yeah. Can you imagine? Your daughter is murdered. You have no idea why. 28 years later, you find out this.

And you'd wish it was the serial killer. I mean. Absolutely. To me, that's so much less horrible than all these people knew all these people participated yeah and never over the course of 28 years did they like develop a conscience no and decide to place an anonymous of them. Write a fucking letter? Do anything at all? I can't believe not a single person over 28 fucking years. Mm-hmm. They have their reasons, and I'll go into them, but I just... Yeah.

Okay. She said that Carl told Janet several times, you're going to die. She dispelled the notion that anyone could have been in that guest house without knowing what was happening. She said you could hear the hooping and hollering from the kitchen. Interestingly, she testified that she never saw Robert Lynch rape Janet or pull the belt, She testified that she never saw Robert Lynch rape Janet or pull the belt. But she did see a guard named Ronald Wurik rape Janet. And that had to be a little awkward for Ronald because he was also a witness for the prosecution.

Ron Wurik would later testify that Carl Pava told him to take pictures of the gang rape that night, and he had. He claimed he had no idea what he was walking into that night. He said, I heard it was a party for Janet. I wasn't really sure what was going to happen. Ron testified that everyone at that party knew that Carl had those pictures and that he might use them against them if they ever snitched. So in conclusion, he's just a totally innocent guy who takes pictures of gang rapes and doesn't say anything about it for 28 years. Yeah. On that note, when Cheryl was cross-examined by the defense, the defense was like, isn't it true that you only kept quiet about this crime because you were afraid you'd be charged. And Cheryl said that,

no, she'd just been really scared. She said, Tony, Bubba, and Carl told me not to ever say one word to anyone or I would end up just like Janet Chandler. Diane Marsman testified that she specifically remembered Robert Lynch raping Janet and pulling on the belt around her neck. remembered Robert Lynch raping Janet and pulling on the belt around her neck. Diane said he pulled it and then it got really quiet and someone said she was dead. Okay, I think I want to pause here because some sources I think are more sympathetic than I am about this idea that specifically the women were afraid that this would happen to them. Sure. Sure, they could be afraid that that was going to happen to them. Okay.

I think that that's a possibility. Sure. Here's where. And even likely. Here's where I lose it. Okay. Yeah, in that moment. Yes, exactly. Absolutely.

28 fucking years later. Not one bit. 20 years later. Nope. Yes, exactly. Absolutely. 28 fucking years later. Not one bit. 20 years later. Nope. 15 years later. No. 10 years later. No.

No. That's how I feel. That's how I feel too. And honestly, okay, this strike ended two weeks afterward. These dudes fucking scattered. Now, not all of them. Yeah. But a lot of them scattered.

Yeah, they're not living next door to you. They're not in your town anymore. Not to say that you shouldn't be afraid. Of course, there should be some fear. But also, bitch, you were there. You were there. Yeah, I don't think it's the fear. You knew something was going to happen to her.

It's not the fear. It's the implication. Yeah, I think so, too. You're there. You implicate yourself. That's disgusting. Yep. I can't believe how many people got away with this and are continuing to get away with this. This is one of the worst cases you've ever covered, Kristen. I agree.

But honestly, I read that Glamour article. I agree. But honestly, I read that that Glamour article. There's something to me. Obviously, if this were like a kind of a normal case where it gets solved, we'd classify this a brandy case. All these people knew for almost 30 years. They had no intention of ever coming forward. Not one of them. And I don't buy that you're still afraid. I don't fucking buy it. There were discrepancies in these eyewitness accounts. I will say, I do think it takes courage to come forward. Of course.

And it takes courage to be like, look, here's something awful that I did. That I was involved in, yeah. I was part of a cheering section for a gang rape. Yeah. Yeah, there's no way you come out of that looking good. No. But what's the alternative? Right.

This young woman's family has no answers. No answers ever. And these awful men get away with it. How do these people fucking sleep at night for 28 fucking years? I don't know. I mean, obviously, Cheryl coped with it by never updating her bangs.

I'm sorry. Jesus. You know, Cheryl didn't get sensed to anything, so I'm going to say whatever the fuck I want. I mean, that's, to me, that's part of the wildest thing is like they go back and like they find these guys. They're not in prison.

They're not, you know, they're living so-called normal lives. So the defense obviously did their best to point out discrepancies in the testimony and they found some stuff of course of course fucking 30 years have passed right to me okay well let me let me read you one so diane had said this attack happened in the late afternoon other witnesses said it happened after dark i hate this nitpicky bullshit because it's like, okay, obviously I'm going to remember witnessing a gang rape. Yeah, I'm going to remember those terrifying things I saw. Am I going to remember the exact date, exact time? Well, probably not.

I mean, it took place over an probably not. Well, it didn't. I mean, it took place over an extended amount of time. Exactly. Exactly. That's not even a good discrepancy. Honestly, to me, I feel like we're dealing with a portion of the story. Right. This goes back to me feeling like Robert and Lori were the only honest ones. Only ones telling the truth, yeah. And so, like, the story kind of kicks in once Robert gets off work. But no.

They had, he got there and Janet was naked. Yeah. She was glassy-eyed. She was bound by her hand. I mean, stuff had happened to her. Yes, exactly. So Diane's saying this happened in the late afternoon.

I bet something fucking did happen in the late afternoon. Yeah, it probably fucking did. And I bet something else. And I bet stuff happened after dark. Yep. Yep. On that same note,

in a very dramatic moment during Lori's testimony, James Bubba Nelson, which, why do people go by Bubba? My God. It's a nickname you can't shake. It's testimony. James Bubba Nelson, which, why do people go by Bubba? My God. It's a nickname you can't shake. It's true.

Once you're Bubba, you're Bubba forever. It follows you everywhere. His defense attorney showed her a photo of a guard. And Lori was like, yes, he raped Janet. And the defense attorney was like, aha, but this man has not been implicated in the rape and murder. Clearly you're confused. And Lori was like, okay, you know, sure, I've got some memory problems.

But in fairness, some of the people who planned this attack on Janet are not on trial. It's not like all the men on trial are the only ones guilty. I mean. Right. What? That doesn't seem like a gotcha moment to me. Not at all. Not at all. We already know

that there were a ton of fucking people at this house. 25 people. We've got four people on trial. Right. One witness told a very weird story about James Bubba Nelson. She said that in 1997, when they were both living in West Virginia, he'd been watching her children for her. And during that time, her daughter got a cut near her eye. And this woman was like, oh, my God, how am I going to explain this to my

husband? And James Bubba Nelson apparently told her, don't worry about it. I killed somebody in Michigan in the late 1970s. What? So I don't know, man. On the stand, she was like, yeah, I thought that was a weird joke. But then last year, when he got arrested for the murder of a woman who'd been killed in Michigan in the late 1970s, I figured I should come forward with this story. Only took her a year to come forward. Right. Well, less than a year. Exactly. She came forward as soon as she heard that he'd been arrested, I assume,

or, you know, in the neighborhood. Imagine that. Yeah, wild. On cross-examination, Bubba's attorney was like, um, isn't it true that you're just mad at Bubba because he convinced

his girlfriend not to loan you money? And the woman was like, yep, that's how I roll. If you don't loan me money, I will wait until the day that you are charged with murder and I will testify at your trial. She did not really say that, but I wish she had. Don't you? Yeah. Sarcasm is so rarely used in court. Ultimately, the jury deliberated for a couple days, and they found Arthur Carl Paiva guilty of first-degree murder, guilty of felony murder during a kidnapping, and guilty of felony murder during a sexual assault.

They also found Freddie Parker, James Bubba Nelson, and Anthony Tony Williams guilty of second-degree murder, felony murder during a sexual assault, and felony murder during a kidnapping. At their sentencing, none of the men spoke, and that really bothered Janet's parents. I bet. Jim later said through tears, You'd have thought, well, what can they say? They all say they weren't there and they're innocent. As a Christian, I just say we should probably forgive. However, you have to ask for forgiveness. And none of these arrogant people showed remorse, much less ask for forgiveness. All four men were

sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And their families took it really hard. One of their sisters had to, gosh, I can't remember. I think she had to be taken out of court and hospitalized. And Glenna later said, I do feel sorry for the parents and families of these men. I can't feel sorry for the men. I can't hate them because that would make me like them. Wow. It was really moving to see Jim and Glenna being able to separate the men from the men's families and acknowledge that like, yeah, their kids had

no idea that their father was involved in this. I mean, this would be just, there are no words. No. Then came Lori Swank's hearing. No words. Then came Lori Swank's hearing. At that hearing, Lori told the court that she takes full responsibility for her actions. She said, I live in a self-imposed mental prison.

This has affected every aspect of my life. Age, covenants, jealousy, they are no excuse. She said that she never spoke about the crime with anyone in her life because she was afraid that if the truth came out, it would affect her relationship with her daughter. Lori was sentenced to 10 to 20 years in prison. What do you think? What do you think? They're probably fine. I don't know. I don't know.

Yeah. Jim and Glenna were appreciative that Lori took responsibility and acknowledged that she deserved some form of punishment. I mean, that's a hell of a lot more than the men did. Absolutely. Yeah, I think her statement is good. Glenna once again told the press that she had sympathy for Lori's family. Yeah. She said they must be in so much shock. She said, we have had to deal with it for much of our lives, but for these people, it's only been three years.

All four of the men appealed their sentences. All four of the men appealed their sentences. They argued that the witnesses from the party were either lying or just didn't remember what happened that night. And the appellate court was like, well, it was up to the jury to decide whether their testimony was credible. So you can fuck off. Fuck off. Yeah. Two of the dude's attorneys were like, oh, our clients should have had separate trials. And the appellate court was like, hey, here's a fun fact.

Fuck off. A separate trial is not guaranteed. So fuck off. Fuck off. They shouldn't have said fuck off so much. I know. It's not very professional. No. But it was warranted here.

Yes. So we'll allow it. Yeah. warranted here, so we'll allow it. In 2010, Janet's parents filed a lawsuit against the security company on the grounds that they'd been negligent in hiring and supervising their employees.

They argued that the company should have done better background checks on their employees. It sounds like these dudes were all like early 20s, which is like, I don't know, maybe you don't need to give that much power to someone who you just pulled off the street. But that lawsuit was dismissed because of a state statute that says that a lawsuit that aims to recover damages for someone's death needs to be filed within three years of their death.

And I hate everything. How do you file within three years if you don't know who's responsible? For 28 years. Who are we protecting with that? I don't understand. That's what I don't understand. What is the fucking point of the statute of limitations? I'm sure people would say it's to not clog up the court system with a bunch of.

That's what I'm saying. Who are we protecting with it? Who's benefiting it from it? Benefiting from it. I think I put an it in there in the wrong spot. Douchebags are benefiting. Yeah. It from it.

Yes. Yes. Where are they now? Yeah, tell us. In 2013, Arthur Carl Pava died in prison. In 2016, Lori Swank was released from prison. In 2020, James Bubba Nelson died in prison. Apparently it wasn't COVID, but, you know.

Freddie Parker, Anthony Williams, and Robert Lynch remain in prison. And everyone else is just living their fucking lives. I think so. I want to wrap up with something that Janet's father, Jim, said at the sentencing for the four men. He said, And that is the story of the murder of Janet Chandler. That was horrible. It was horrible. You told it very well. Thank you. It was horrible. I hated it. I mean, reading all about this and then trying to go to sleep. Yeah.

sleep yeah holy i i can't believe someone died this way this is such a horrible way to die and fuck everybody yes holy shit oh my gosh. Yep. Poor Janet. Yeah. Poor Janet. Poor Janet's family. Yeah. The other thing I've been thinking about a lot is, like, okay, so she was at this point in her life where she's trying new things. Clearly, it seems like, you know, she'd followed every very, very, very strict rule for the vast majority of her life.

Now she's out. She's kind of playing the field. She's having fun. She would probably never want stories about that to get out there. And. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know this

this is what's so sad to me especially when someone dies young because it's like I think people not to use the word multifaceted again because I said it so well but it's like people forget that we're all

multifaceted and that we we probably all did dumb shit when we were 20 or not even dumb shit because it's not dumb to have sex with people but just like stuff that you wouldn't necessarily want people to know about exactly yeah

yeah so she decided she was going to bang some dudes when she was 21 years old. Like. Her crime for being hot. Yeah. And 22. Yes. Is this.

Like that's what she gets. Good God. Holy shit. That was rough. That was terrible. Yeah. Thanks a lot, Katie, in the Discord. I hope you're happy.

Yeah, no kidding. Should we do an ad? Shall we do an ad? Doodaloo. And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Should we take some questions from the Discord? What the hell is that?

Well, why don't you tell the people? What? No, I just told the whole damn story. And I know you want to punish me for telling such a sad one. I do. I do. But you should promote the Discord. The Discord is like a 90s style chat room where you can chitty chat the day away with other listeners of the podcast.

To get in, all you have to do is join our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. And then when we record, we ask for some questions and we answer a few. Ooh, CallingInHorny wants to know, Kristen, you never updated us on your lip blushing. Oh my gosh. How did it go? Did it hurt?

Do you look like a Kardashian now? Oh, well, obviously. And I always have and always will. No, okay, so I got lip bl have. And always will. No, okay. So I got lip blushing, which is basically like a lip tattoo. It looks so good. Thank you. It's amazing.

It's supposed to last like a couple years. I saw a lady on Instagram who's local who did it. I love it. Yeah. I was nervous as hell because it is semi-permanent. Well, and it's a tattoo and you don't do tattoos. Let me tell you. I mean, I probably don't need to tell you, but getting tattooed on your effing lips, that is not comfy.

No, I bet it's not. It's not that it's super painful necessarily. It's more like it's the most awkward thing ever. You've got a person's hand like. Not to mention a tattoo gun. Yeah. But I love the results. The only thing is for the first couple days you have swollen red ass clown lips.

Norm said you looked like you had wax lips on when you came home. I did. I did. I came home and he laughed at me. He was cracking up. I might have to post some and he laughed at me. He was cracking up. I might have to post some pictures of that. Yeah. It was ridiculous. But no, it's gone down and I have a touch-up appointment in a couple weeks.

It looks wonderful. This is not sponsored, by the way, obviously. But I really like it. It has made me want to do other stuff, but I'm scared to do other stuff. Like get a full sleeve of tattoos? No. Are you nuts? sleeve of tattoos? No. Are you nuts? You would never.

Never. Never. What other stuff do you want to do? Full facelift. Boob job. Oh, my gosh. Brazilian butt lift. Everything.

Everything. Give it to me one more time, baby. Okay. Excellent. What if I just went into a plastic surgeon once a year and was like, Give me the words. Rev it up. Tighten her up.

But I'm cheap, so I go to not a reputable place. Oh, no. So I don't look great. Oh, it's fine. Everything's fine. I asked Brandy, do I really need to seal the cuticle with cold water when I'm washing my hair? I mean, you don't have to, but it really does work. Like, it really does make your hair softer and less tangled and shinier.

That's the rudest thing you've ever said to me. Yeah, I don't like doing it. I rarely do it. I try to do it sometimes. That's when you, everyone, that's when you give your hair a cold blast of water. A cold blast of water at the end of the shower yeah and i mean really you're supposed to wash your hair in like tepid water i'm never fucking doing that so yeah great i'm supposed to also only eat broccoli and apples

but here we sit okay my god can you imagine no your color will last longer your hair will look shinier smoother it will tangle less if you do the cold blast at the end. Yeah. You decide if that's worth it to you. Oh, my gosh. Did I talk about this on the podcast before? Okay. Brandy's Ho-Face asks, did you have a light bright when you were younger?

And did you spell inappropriate words with the lights? Brandy was in love with her light bright. I was. I made a Christmas-themed light bright. Extravaganza. Yes, every year to put next to the Christmas tree. You've probably already heard about it. I've probably mentioned it.

That's what I'm sure that I've told this on the podcast before. No, it made the national news. So, yes, I never did inappropriate words, but I fucking loved my light bright. Yeah. Did you ever have a light bright? I did, but I did not feel as strongly. It did not touch me quite as deeply as yours did you. Oh, Karen, like the memes asks, does Santa wrap gifts under your tree? What about stockings? In our home, Santa leaves his gifts fully assembled and unwrapped. They are set near the stockings.

Yeah. Ready to be played with first thing Christmas morning, which is actually Christmas Eve morning in our family. I got to say, my brain is hardwired. When someone says, in our home, the fact that you didn't say, we believe in science, really rocked my clock there. Ooh, High Priestess of Costco wants to know, what's the most recent thing you've been influenced to buy?

You got anything? I mean, I'm always influenced. I feel like I'm always influenced, too. And I'm like, at what age will this stop? My God. I have purchased multiple things off of TikTok shop lately. Well said. Yes.

What'd you buy? Oh, my gosh. Is a faux septum piercing. I think it looks awesome. Yeah. I'm too big of a baby to get it pierced, I think. What's your septum? Is that?

Yeah, it's this right here. And so I am scared. Wait, we're on. Okay, it's the in between your nostrils. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I'm scared to get it pierced. Yeah.

And so I saw this one on TikTok and it's so cute. Usually the fake ones are like big and bulky and they like magnet together inside your nose. Yeah. This like just slips on and then it's a little tiny. Yeah. Just a little hoopie doop. Yep. Okay.

Now hold on. I ordered it. I have not received it yet. You're covered in tattoos. You got the piercings. Why are you afraid of a septum piercing? I don't know. It feels like it would hurt.

I mean, I have my lip pierced. I have multiple piercings. Why are you afraid of a septum piercing? I don't know. It feels like it would hurt. I mean, I have my lip pierced. I have multiple piercings in my ears. I have tattoos all over. This feels really thick, like it would hurt really bad to get pierced. Does your nipples hurt? I don't have my nipples pierced. Also, because I'm scared to. Also, you'd have to show someone your nipples.

Exactly. Someone would have to look at my nipples. And the folks at Claire's are not prepared. I don't think you're allowed to whip your nipples out of Claire's. They say, ma'am, my God, please stop. Okay, hon, we'll do them both at the same time. That way it won't hurt as bad. Stop it.

What else have I been influenced? Okay, there's something in my TikTok shopping cart right now. Okay. But I haven't purchased it yet. What is it? It's this Peter Thomas Roth eye firming stuff. You put it on right under your under eyes. And it like makes them almost swell so that you don't have bags or lines under your eyes.

Puff-a-duff-duff. Yeah. Does it work? I don't know. I keep watching these TikToks of people who swear it does. But then in the comments, people are like,

yeah, but how do you deal with the white substance that's left behind? And so then I've watched TikToks where people are like, oh, mix it with some concealer. And if it's leaving white behind, you're using too much of it.

But it's kind of expensive. How much is it? $38 for like an ounce. Yeah, that does. And some of this stuff I'm like, okay, it seems too good to be true. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

You know one thing that I have been thinking about getting? What? Okay. So, you know, a lot of people do those eye patch things. Oh, yeah, I've got all kinds of those. See, I like... That's like my problem area on my face. Really?

Yeah. If you say so. All right. But no, I've seen like reusable ones, which I kind of like. Yeah. Like you slather on the stuff and then you pop those bad boys. Yeah. I think that's my problem with any of the single-use stuff. Yeah. Like you slather on the stuff. Yeah. And then you pop those bad boys. Yeah. That's, I think that's my problem with any of the single use stuff. Sure.

And you know this about me. I'm always like, well, I have to wait for the most special of occasions. Exactly. You'll never use it if it's a single user. Right. Because you're going to save it for the perfect occasion. That perfect occasion never going to happen. Wow.

Because my life is lame. No, that's just like, you're always going to think like this isn't special enough. Like I'll hold on to this for something really special. And then it's five years old and I'm like, yeah, I shouldn't use this anymore. But I won't get rid of it because it's still special. That's right. Sarahkaya comes in, asks, Brandy, are you looking forward to the New Year's Eve Twilight Zone marathon? What's your favorite episode?

Okay, I am very much looking forward to it. I will say last year, I DVR'd all of the episodes. What year was last year? Why are you saying it like that? What do you, do you not say DVR'd? What do you say? Recorded? I don't know. I just, I don't record anything. I mean, it's just like a stream. I recorded all of the episodes because they air for the marathon. And I was like, now I can watch them anytime I want. Yes. Because not all of the seasons are available in the same place to stream. And I've not watched them one time because there's something so like tied to the New Year's marathon for me that I like I haven't watched them at all. So, yes, I'm very excited for it.

My favorite episode is the After Hours, which is about a mannequin. Oh, we know. We know. We've heard all about it. Janelle Mescal wants to know, Kristen, I'm doing my first powerlifting competition in January. Only slightly terrified I'm going to shit my pants. That's a reasonable fear do you lift as well as run or and how do you feel about picking things up and putting them down oh my gosh so I

really haven't been running much lately but there is a lady on YouTube yeah who does weightlifting stuff and I have gotten so into it yeah I love it yeah yeah so i say go for it absolutely but i do make really see i always judged the people you make noises i always judged the people in the gym who were making noises as they lifted weights i thought they just wanted attention no well they might have wanted they might have yeah but also you gotta sometimes you gotta make a noise when you're exerting that much strength norm Norm makes fun of me. He goes, whoo, whoo. Which is rude. But it turns out I'm not very good at lifting weights, so I have to make the whoos.

Whoos. Whoo, whoo. Oh, I want to know the answer to this. In the trunk of a truck. Do the pets get Christmas gifts, Kristen? Do you get the animals Christmas gifts? So they all have stockings. I think it's different for us just because we're hardly ever home on Christmas.

So the dogs usually get boarded. There's someone stopping by for the cats and stuff. So what you're saying is it's really sad for the animals at Christmas time. Yes, yes. No, so we always do special treats for the animals. But we don't actually go out and buy, you know, new toys. That's kind of a sad age. Your dogs do get bark boxes, though.

So they like. Not anymore. Oh, okay. They carry around that sexy little kitten all the time. Oh, my gosh. Kit's favorite thing when someone, well, I mean, really just when anyone comes to the house is to show them her toys. Yes. So she trots around.

Carries it around in her mouth. It's so cute. It's adorable. But Brandy has made it weird by saying that one of the toys looks like a sexy little kitten. She does. She has fishnets on, ma'am. Brandy wants to bang one of my dog toys. I'm not interested in banging her one bit.

I mean, she's talking about how sexy she is. But let's just call it what it is. I'm trying to call it like it is, and you're denying it. So I don't know what to do with that, you know? Oh, well, I mean, if the people demand it. Witless the Witness says, Brandy, do we get to hear Christmas shoes? No. No.

It's the season. Oh, my God. Sir, I want to buy these shoes for my mama, please. It's Christmas Eve and these shoes are just her size. Could you hurry, sir? Daddy says there's not much time. She's been sick for quite a while, and I know these shoes will make her smile. And I want her to look beautiful.

If Mama meets Jesus tonight. You're welcome. Tonight. You're welcome. The extended version of that song is so sad. Turns out the kid was supposed to go to the store and get life-saving medicine. Oh, was he? Instead, went to the shoe store.

And Mama did meet Jesus that night. Yeah. In the ugliest pair of crocs she ever did see anyway should we move on to some supreme court induction absolutely we should to get inducted on this podcast all you have to do is sign up at the supreme court level or higher on patreon and right now we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. Amanda Nemo. Devin Sawa. Jake. Andrew Garfield. Meg Tipton.

Carrie Elwes. Jacqueline Clements. Casper. We're assuming it's the ghost version, not Devin Sawa. Absolutely, not the Devin Sawa version. Ashley. Jonathan Taylor Thomas Annabelle Wolfhart Freddie Prinze Jr.

Andrea Eileen Elvira Mistress of the Dark Hannah Miller Peter Pan from the 2003 live action Peter Pan movie Somebody else had that exact same answer This must be one sexy Peter Pan I've never seen it, I guess.

Taylor Tuno. JTT. Jamila Nablet. Edward Furlong. Sexiest name in showbiz. Stop it. Bex. Joseph Fiennes.

Fiennes. Oh, Fiennes? Yeah. Oh, that's so fine. Hilarious. I think it's actually even fine. I think the S is silent. Oh, that's even better.

Yeah, well, his brother is Ralph Fine. Ralph? Ralph. Well, it's Ralph, but it's pronounced Rafe. Well, that's complicated. It's very complicated. He plays Voldemort. Anyway.

Okay. Anyway, moving on. Montana Fletcher. Coray Matthews. Jenna Tunnell. Oh, Jesus Christ Mikhail Baryshnikov Thank you

He's the Russian from Sex and the City Oh Jenna really? Okay Well am I not getting something? I didn't get it. I think lots of people think he's hot. Yeah.

Okay. All right. Very good for them. Who am I to yuck someone else's disgusting yum? Marissa Kallik. JTT. Mara. Brendan Fraser.

Elise Marie. JTT again. My God. Oh, so many JTTs. Leave the man alone. Emily Jo Unglesby. JTT again. My god. So many JTTs. Leave the man alone. Emily Jo Unglesby. Josh Hutcherson. Jordan Young. Freddie Prince Jr.

Again. My god. Mia. Zuko from Avatar The Last Airbender. That's a... Sounds like a made up movie. Well, I think it's like a anime. Okay. Maybe. It's in the realm of an anime i'm talking about things that i they're way outside my knowledge never mind forget everything i said no don't

forget it write in angrily lauren sloan zach hansen welcome to the Supreme Court. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. If you're looking for other ways to support us, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. And then head over to Apple Podcasts. Leave us a five-star rating and review.

And then be sure to join us in February. Wow. Unless you sign up on Patreon. That's right. We'll still be on Patreon. We've got a bonus episode in December coming up and a bonus episode in January. That's right. So you know where to find us.

That's right. The ball is in your court, bitch. Now you have to say when we'll be experts. Oh, when we'll be experts on a whole new topic. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, I read a bunch of stuff and regurgitated it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. So I owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

I got my info from the article Gang Rape, Murder and Justice in a Small Town by Shauna Sale for Glamour, the Conspiracy of Silence episode of Dateline, and great coverage by John Tunison for Michigan Live. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.