Let's Go To Court! - 29: The Internet’s First Serial Killer & the Disappearance of Cora Okonski

Episode Date: August 15, 2018

For years, it looked like investigators would never figure out why 23-year-old Cora Okonski disappeared. One spring day, she left home to buy cigarettes from a local convenience store. She was never seen again. Family, friends and police searched for her, but years passed by without a trace of the young mother. In fact, so much time passed that it looked like they’d never figure out what happened to her. Then, 16 years after Cora went missing, police made an arrest. Then Kristin gives us the heebie jeebies with the tale of John Edward Robinson, often dubbed the internet’s first serial killer. John didn’t start off as a killer. For years, he was just a thieving con man. He was so conniving that at one point, thanks to an enormous ego and a lot of forged letters, he convinced the mayor of Kansas City to give him the “Man of the Year” award. Over time, John evolved from serial fraudster to serial murderer. His killing spree ended when police discovered barrels containing women’s bodies on his property. Warning: This story is as disgusting as it is disturbing. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Serial Killer JR Robinson’s Sinister Alter Ego,” by David McClintock for Vanity Fair “Tearful wife of accused serial killer offers an alibi,” CNN.com “Death sentence is upheld for serial killer John E. Robinson Sr.,” Kansas City Star …and good ol’ Wikipedia   In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Cora Ann Okonski” IowaColdCases.org “Where Is Cora Ann” by John Speer, The Tama News-Herald “Murder trial for Iowa woman whose body was never found begins Monday” by Grant Rodgers, Des Moines Register “Cara Okonski feared for her life, friend testifies in murder trial” by Trish Mehaffey, The Courier “Tait Purk guilty of 1st degree murder” by John Speer, The Toledo Chronicle “Judge overturns murder conviction of Tama County man in fiancee’s death” by Trish Mahaffey, The Gazette “Judge recuses self in Tait Purk murder trial” by John Speer, The Toledo Chronicle “UPDATE: Tait Purk found guilty in disappearance of Cora Okonski” by Trish Mehaffey, The Gazette “Tait Purk sentenced to 50 years in prison for killing fiancee in 2000” by Trish Mahaffey, The Gazette

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about the internet's first serial killer. And I'll be talking about the disappearance of Cora Okonski. Okay, this is...

What? I just want to say right off the top here i'm never doing another serial killer again serial killers are your giant bummer it was horrible i know who your serial killer is i'm excited for you to do it of course you're excited what but i get to go first i don't know you're complaining about your case already we'll save that for the fucking end i get to go first i don't know why you're complaining about your case already we'll save that for the fucking end i complained to my mom about it i complained to norman about speaking of our moms yeah we got our 50 yes we did thank you everybody yes thank you so much um mom i'll be waiting for your phone call on when you're going to take me out for ice cream

this is how we find out whether our moms really listen to the episodes if we don't hear from them then i'll be like oh okay thanks um i'm concerned i just moved my microphone for like 40 seconds while i was talking you know how that sounded terrible i'm really sorry it's okay it our first episode. We don't know what we're doing. Oh, wait. Is this 29th? This is our 29th episode. Brandi, come on. Come on. No, it's okay. It's only recently that I've discovered

that you can totally hear me drinking on the podcast. And I don't mean drinking like alcohol, obviously. You're 17 beverages. I thought that it was imperceptible this is incorrect totally you can also hear peanut in the background when she when her collar jingles yeah yeah it's cute and you know the only reason that stays in there is because she's always in there with me when i'm editing so i just assume she just jingled her collar

no fake news it doesn't bother me doesn't bother me either so people can just think that Santa is in the background a lot of people don't know that Santa lives in Kansas City a lot of people don't know that Kristen doesn't have a dog all right are you ready Are you ready for the business? Oh, God. Give me the business. Give me the business. I realized how weird it sounded. It was already like halfway out my mouth. I'm not giving you any business. Okay, so I'm going to talk about the disappearance of Cora Okonski.

Is this another story about a woman who went out for a run and then, oh, no. She wasn't running. Okay. But she did something that you'll never do, so. Okay. Yeah. Was she like doing some accounting or like? No, but I'll get to what she was doing that you will never do.

Okay. I just want to start off by saying that i got uh most of my information from this for this from iowacoldcases.org so amazing website and i just realized just right this second that i did an iowa case last week not intentional that i did another iowa case you know i think you're just so obsessed with me that when I was in Iowa, you were just like Googling Iowa facts. And I have now given away that this is a cold case. Oh, well, damn it. Interesting.

Oh, was that intentional? Was it? No, it really wasn't. But I really wanted to give credit because this website was amazing okay cora ann okonski was a 23 year old woman living with her two-year-old son and fiance when she disappeared from her home in tama iowa on sunday april 16th 2000 tama is a small town in the central part of the state with a population of approximately 2,800 people. So, pretty big town.

Pretty big city. As Norman would say. No, very small town. And then, worth noting, I guess, it was Palm Sunday. So, that's the Sunday before Easter. Early Tuesday morning, Tate Otis Perk, Cora's 33-year-old fiance. What do you think about that age gap? 10 years.

Wait, you said she was 33, right? I said she was 23 and he is 33. Don't like it one bit? Suspect him already. There you go. Just putting it out there right from the get-go. Just putting it out there right from the get go. Just putting it out there. So Tuesday morning, Tate reports her missing to the Tama police.

He said she'd gone to church on Sunday, which was unusual for her. She didn't go regularly. In fact, he'd never known her to go at all. But her family was Catholic. The church was only a block or so from their home. So she walked and she'd taken her son austin with her okay and i will say i think a lot of people when they have a young child will start going back to church and if you're gonna go back to church it's gonna be easter oh yeah christmas so you know okay yeah they'd returned shortly with palm leaves that cora then hung on the wall, which is a common

practice in Catholicism, but something that Tate was unfamiliar with. Mm-hmm. So much so that he didn't even know what the leaves were that he brought home. He just described them as long, skinny plant branches to authorities. This was the two-year-old? No. Oh. This is what the fiancé said.

Well, it's he... I'm sorry. He did not know what they were. I'm sorry. He's on the wrong foot with me by being 33 with the 23-year-old. So Cora and Tate were planning to get married in May. And when she'd gotten home from church that Sunday, they discussed upcoming wedding plans. So they were like about a month out from the wedding.

And Tate told Cora that he thought they should wait a while to get married. And then they'd argued. Cora got upset and said she was taking a walk to clear her mind. Tate told authorities that she'd been gone for several hours, but had returned in the evening around six or seven. But when she'd returned, she didn't say much of anything. She just took a shower and then went next door to the neighbor's house for a few minutes, came back carrying like a notebook. And then she'd asked him for money for cigarettes. He'd given her a few dollars. And then she left the house on foot to walk to the gas station up the street to buy cigarettes.

With a notebook and a couple books. She left the notebook at home. Okay. But she took the money, took off on foot to go buy cigarettes. Gotcha. That was the last time he ever saw her. So I don't think you're ever going to walk to the gas station by cigarettes, Kristen, is what I'm saying. Okay, yeah.

So you might be safe here. I hope so. Can you imagine if all of a sudden at 32 I start smoking? That would be alarming. Norman would flip the table. He would lose his mind. Norman would flip the table. He would lose his mind.

When she hadn't returned that evening, he had just assumed that she was still upset and had gone to a friend's house. But he spent the next day trying to track her down, knocking on doors of several friends, and all gave the same response. Cora hadn't been there the night before, and none of them had seen her. And she didn't have a cell phone? No, it's 2000. 2000, so. Yeah, okay.

No, they were still pretty, I mean, not super common yet at that time. Right, right, okay. I mean, unless you're Zach Moore, she had one since like, you know, 93. Yeah, and it was huge. Huge, the biggest cell phone ever. That night, Tate told authorities that he had to work a second shift at his job in Grinnell, which is about 30 minutes away. So he'd taken Cora's son, Austin, to stay with his family. And then he left a note on the door for Cora, letting her know where Austin was.

When he returned early the next morning after his shift, the note was still there. Cora hadn't been back. After checking with the local jail to see if she'd been arrested, he reported her missing. So that takes us to Tuesday morning. As is often the case in these instances, the police were familiar with Cora and Tate, and not just because it was a small town. In December of 1999, just a few months earlier, Tate had been charged with a domestic assault against Cora and a no contact order had been put in place at that time. Was that a mm-hmm? It sure was.

It sure was. A short time later, though, both Tate and Cora filed paperwork to get the no contact order lifted. They were working things out. They were working things out they were working things out i had a list they were planning a may wedding the assault case was officially dismissed in march of 2000 but three weeks later cora ann okonski allegedly walked out of her house to buy cigarettes and vanished without a trace. That domestic incident had not been the only reason authorities knew of Cora, though.

Cora engaged in what authorities labeled as a high-risk lifestyle. She had a history of amphetamine use. And as such, she had several run-ins with police she was considered a person of interest in cases that included narcotics domestic violence burglary and at the time of her disappearance there was an active warrant for her arrest on a charge of failure to appear at a pre-trial conference as a witness wow are you ready to be pissed you're about to be pissed i can just guarantee it. Okay. You want to hold onto your chair or something?

I'm just going to power through it. What do we got? Because of this outstanding warrant, Cora was not listed as an official missing person because per Iowa state law, a person cannot be listed as both wanted and missing at the same time. Yes. Why? That's. I knew you were going to be pissed.

I mean, it's terrible. That doesn't make any sense. Yeah. So she could not go on to the official missing persons registry because she was on the wanted list for having an active warrant for her arrest that doesn't make any sense am i missing something i yeah am i wanting something i can't it can't be both you can't be missing no no at the same time that's crazy bullshit so the case of Cora Okonski's disappearance quickly went cold no kidding Cora's friends and family felt sure from the beginning that she would never abandon her son

and that something must have happened to her yes she'd had her struggles with drugs and the law, but she'd always stayed in contact with her parents, who lived in Chicago, and she'd always taken care of Austin, her son. Months passed without any word or sign of Cora, and then their fears seemed to be confirmed by the revelation that Cora had not cashed her Social Security disability checks since April of 2000.

By 2003, police and Cora's family alike believed that Cora was dead. Three years had passed without any sign of her. What few leads they had in her disappearance had gone nowhere. By this time, her fiance, Tate Perk, was in prison on unrelated charges for conspiracy to manufacture methamphetamine, possession of pseudoephedrine, and being a felon and a user of a controlled substance in possession of a firearm. Great. serving his sentence at the federal prison in Leavenworth, Kansas, with a scheduled release date of February 2017. Oh, wow. Okay. So he had a long sentence.

He denied having any knowledge of his fiance's whereabouts. And investigators said that he'd been cooperative. He'd answered all of their questions what the five they asked before they were like oh she's also wanted so we don't care they really i'm gonna get into more of the investigation but just because she wasn't on the missing list doesn't mean they didn't investigate her disappearance it just meant that outside sources weren't also helping with it. And this is a cold case, you said?

I'm in a shitty mood today. I'm sorry. And investigators would not confirm whether they considered Tate a suspect in her disappearance. But of course he was a suspect! I was going to say, boyfriend, husband, fiance, it's always... He's the last person that's our, the person that reported her missing. That's just being silly. Clearly he's a suspect.

We all watch Dateline. That's right! On September 18, 2003, Tama Police published an appeal in a local newspaper asking the public for information regarding core's disappearance oh they wanted to send the message that they were still looking for her and community members rose to the occasion and tips began to surface armed with a search warrant the tama police department iowa division of criminal investigation and four other agencies began an extensive four-day search of a rural farm on iowa highway 21 near irving iowa in tama county as well as an irving salvage yard so some tip that had come in had led them to this location okay this rural property this farm

off of iowa highway 21 belonged to nancy and don perk tate perk's cousin and his wife whatever tip had come in made investigators believe that core might have been out at this property the night before she disappeared. The Perks gave the agencies their full cooperation though and in the search they found some stuff. When bone fragments and clothing collected on the property was sent off to the crime lab for analysis detectives thought maybe one of their leads had finally paid off. Right. But when the analysis came back the bone fragments were animal not human and the clothing failed to yield anything of significance as well the case again went cold dog sweater

thinking maybe the clothing wasn't human either by the 10th anniversary of Cora's disappearance all hope of ever finding her even just her body had faded but one man Tama police detective that sounded kind of like pet detective wait are we talking about a pet detective took the case on big fan yes he's like did someone say dog sweater he's quirky but he'll find it that's right tama police detective john carr remained focused on the case i want to solve this before i retire from the police force car said to a local paper for an article about the anniversary he called it a very active investigation still and said he was finishing up another round of interviews in the community based on new statements that had surfaced okay i take back what i said about police this guy is cool for

this article he was asked how often he thought about the case and he said, every day. Yeah. So don't be a dick to him, Kristen. Okay, I take back my dickishness. No, I really, like, that's cool. That's cool to be like, before I retire, I've got this one that's bugging me.

But again, nothing really went anywhere. The case remained cold for another six years. Then, finally, on December 9th, 2016, more than 16 years after Cora's disappearance, there was an announcement in the case. there was an announcement in the case. It turns out that in March of 2015, the Department of Public Safety and the Division of Criminal Investigation had assembled a task force of special agents with significant experience working cold cases

to take another look at Cora's case. So this was the only open missing persons case in Tama, Iowa. Obviously, it's a small town. It's a tiny town. But they weren't just going to let it stay that way. Yeah. So they gather this task force working closely alongside the attorney general's office,

the sheriff's office, the Tama Police Department, and the Tama County Attorney's Office, determined that Cora Okonski's disappearance was not voluntary. Through interviews and additional discoveries, the case was then classified as a homicide investigation. Okay. How did they determine that it wasn't voluntary? At this point, they've not released that information. Oh, okay.

Don't they know how important I am and that I need to be in on this? So agents then traveled extensively throughout the country conducting multiple interviews of key witnesses. So tips that had come forward, they're following up on them across the country. Have I mentioned that I take back my dickishness about these police officers? I'm sorry. I mentioned that I take back my dickishness about these police officers. I'm sorry. They then submitted their findings to the Attorney General's Office and the Tama County Attorney's Office. Upon review of that report, the Attorney General's Office and the County Attorney's Office convened a grand jury to review the evidence and testimony.

And that grand jury returned an indictment for the charge of murder in the first degree. For Tate Otis Perk. Nice. Nice. Perk's trial was scheduled for February 21st, 2017. But after a change of venue motion was granted for the defense, it was moved to Marengo, Iowa, which was 45 minutes away. And was rescheduled for May 1st of 2017. But prosecuting a murder case without a body was almost unheard of in Iowa.

Arguing the case without a body meant the prosecution would be missing several key pieces of evidence that typically establish guilt. There would be no medical examiner testimony about the cause of death. And jurors wouldn't see any gruesome crime scene photos because there were none. And there would be, and there were no covered remains to generate important forensic evidence. Proving an intentional premeditated murder

without those things would be a great challenge. But the prosecutors believed it could be done. An unofficial nationwide database of 469 murder prosecutions without a body between 1819 and 2016 list just one other Iowa case. But in that case, they had an eyewitness to the killing and blood and tissue DNA matching the victim near a suspected dump site. Despite the roadblocks a no body case presents, though, 88 percent of the cases listed in that database ended in conviction. That's I feel like that's pretty high. Yeah. And I'm kind of thinking in order for a no body case to make it to court the circumstantial evidence has to be pretty big has to be amazing yeah exactly but yeah 88 that's really really high

yeah and so on monday may 1st 2017 this trial with its unusual set of challenges, began in a Marengo, Iowa courtroom. A jury of seven women and five men, plus two alternates, was seated and testimony began Tuesday afternoon. In his opening statement, Tama County Attorney Brent Heeran told jurors that Tate put Cora in a chokehold and slammed her body to the floor, killing her.

At the time, they were arguing over money and the upcoming wedding, which Perk wanted to postpone. Defense attorney Aaron Sebrecht, in his opening statement, told the jury that there was no evidence Tate killed Cora. In fact, there was no proof that she was even dead. I am wondering, how did the prosecutor say he put her in a chokehold? How did he say that? Seems like he might have to have some evidence to be able to say that.

All right, sassy pants. Stay tuned. Can't take it. Ricky Joe Sanchez, one of Cora's friends, was one of the first to testify at trial. She testified that she was the neighbor that Cora had visited that day. Cora had come to borrow a notebook because Tate wouldn't talk to her and she said she wanted to write him a letter. She told Sanchez that she and Tate had been arguing and that she feared for her life. She said Tate told her he was going to bust her head open, Sanchez told jurors.

She also testified that Cora told her to keep her windows open and asked her to call police if she heard screaming. Oh, shit. Sanchez took her dog for a walk so she could watch their house which she could see from her yard but she never heard any screams or saw anything sanchez also testified that earlier in the day she'd given cora a ride to perk's relatives home in bell plain iowa a rural farm property. Oh, my God. You might remember this from 10 minutes ago. What?

When I said they'd searched a property. What are we doing here? Start over. Cora had said she needed to get out of the house to let Tate cool off, and after an argument, so Sanchez had dropped her off at Tate's relative's house and then returned around 7 to pick her up and take her home. When they'd returned home

Cora asked Sanchez to come inside with her because she was afraid of what kind of mood Tate might be in. Sanchez testified that she went in with her but when Tate hadn't even spoken to Cora upon her return she'd left and gone home. Oh, boy.

The last time she saw Cora was when she came to borrow the notepad. Cora's parents, Jerry and Cecilia Okonski, both of Oaklawn, Illinois, testified about their daughter, who they said was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder as a child. The Okonskis talked to their daughter for the last time on April 16th, 2000. She was at Perk's relative's home, and that relative had computer problems. Jerry Okonski, a retired computer programmer, said he talked to her three or four times that day trying to help. Cecilia Okonski said she was concerned after learning her daughter was missing because

whenever she had trouble, she would call them for help, and she hadn't called them this time. The mother also pointed out that her daughter wouldn't intentionally leave her two-year-old son Austin. She loved her son, Cecilia Okonski testified. So they admitted,

yes, their daughter had problems. She had mental health issues. She had drug problems. But she had been in trouble before and she had always reached out to them. Yes. She always called them. The longest that they had ever gone without speaking was like a week. That says a lot. Yes.

And even when it was calling to say, hey, you know, I've gotten myself in another mess. I need your help. Yes. She wasn't afraid to reach out to them that's pretty big evidence that she's no longer alive i completely agree yeah jerry okonski testified that tate had called him a few days after he initially told them their daughter had gone missing he wanted them to come pick up austin because he had to go to work and he couldn't keep him. When the Okinskis got to Tate's house, all of Austin's toys and clothes were outside in front of the house. And he brought Austin out to them instead of them coming in the house.

Mm-hmm. A little suspect. Yes. For sure. The grandparents took Austin home with them at that time but their niece in kansas city said she wanted to care for the child austin who is now 20 was adopted by that niece wow and grew up in the kansas city area whoa yeah that's crazy yeah that's how i found this case. No, I'm just kidding.

It's just a weird little tidbit. I met Austin at a bar. I met Austin at a bar. He told me his life story. Great guy. On Friday, May 5th, the prosecution's star witness took the stand. The most damning testimony of the trial would come from Sean Ward, a fellow inmate of Tate's at Leavenworth. He testified that Tate had confided in him that during an argument on April 16th, he'd choked slammed Cora against the floor and broken her neck, resulting in her death.

in her death ward testified that tate put cora's body in a closet for the night and then the following day he put her body in the body in the back of a pickup truck and drove her out to a state park or refuge area and buried her he said tate told him he'd buried the body so deep that he had to build himself steps to get out of the grave. Oh, my God. The defense called four witnesses who testified that they saw Cora after April 16th, which was deemed to be the most damning testimony for the prosecution. Right. But the prosecution had another eyewitness. Earwitness? I could be an ear witness

okay so this other I didn't write this down but this other witness was a guy who had lived in a halfway house with Tate at some point and he said

he said the exact same story that the inmate had told that he had confided in him that he had killed a girlfriend once and he said the same thing that he buried her in a state park that he dug the grave really deep and that he'd periodically gone back to check on it to make sure it wasn't noticeable and he said his time went by the less and less noticeable it got to the point that he couldn't even find where it was anymore exactly you know he still knew the general area or whatever

so these two guys testify at trial okay so is this guy just the world's dumbest murderer who just can't shut up so that was a question that they that was asked at trial sean ward like why would he have told you this and he's like you know prison is a different is an interest interesting environment you're isolated. You create relationships and everybody talks about what got them there or the things that they've done in their life. You confide with people on a different level than you would confide with people on the outside. Huh. Which makes sense to me.

Yeah. I mean, I guess when I imagine prison has to be a pretty humbling experience. Yeah. So why? Why pretend? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

So these two guys are telling this story that he's told them exactly what happened, you know, but then there's these four other people who are saying, and I couldn't find these four people's exact testimony. I just heard it mentioned just like this so i i wish i knew more about that but it was four people that testified that they saw her interacted with her identified her somehow after the date that the prosecution is saying that she was murdered which is april 16th after a week of testimony, the jury began deliberations on Tuesday, May 9th at 3.30pm.

They reached a unanimous verdict just before noon the following day. They found Tate Otis Perk. What do you think, Kristen? Well, if it's cold case, then they didn't find him guilty, but they should have found him guilty.

They found him guilty of first-degree murder. Cold case doesn't have to be unsolved. Yes, it does. No, it was cold for 16 years. Well, it's not cold anymore. Okay, then yeah, for sure. Yeah, they found him guilty of first-degree murder. And per Iowa state law, he would be sentenced in a formal sentencing hearing on July 10th.

But the sentence was mandatory. Life in prison without the possibility of parole. Okay. His sentencing hearing. I do not like anything about what's going on with you right now. Would be postponed though. Why? Because on June.

That's a weird month. June. I had a stroke in the middle of that word. Glad to have you back. It's only half my face movie. On June 19th, 2017, Tate's defense team filed a motion for a new trial based on lack of evidence, unfair prejudice and possible jury misconduct.

Oh no. The motion stated that the defense maintained that there was no evidence that Cora was actually dead since no body had ever been found. It also argued that the jury may have unfairly judged Tate because of testimony regarding prior bad acts, such as domestic violence, burglary, and the use and sale of drugs. The motion also pointed out that two of the witnesses were jailhouse snitches who were testifying under the belief that they would somehow benefit from their testimony. That's not a reason for a new trial, though.

that's not a reason for a new trial though like that's the reasons they have on their motion okay but you point that out in court you say well remind me again where you live sir and they're like and then you like drag their name through the mud and then the jury can decide what they do and i'm sorry but domestic violence is relevant yeah anyway continue but the okay no ask your question jury misconduct yeah so i couldn't find exactly what they're referring to as far as jury misconduct but it sounds like they're referring to like them getting information that didn't pertain to the case like just that bad act stuff like the use and sale of drugs and stuff that it wasn't pertinent to this case it would take judge mitchell turner nearly two months to rule on the defense's motion. Really? But on August 15th, 2017, he overturned Tate's conviction. No!

Yes. He ruled that the verdict was contrary to the evidence or lack of evidence that was presented at trial. Judge Turner ordered a new trial for Perk and he said in his ruling that he didn't find the jailhouse witnesses to be credible to be credible as they were expecting some kind of leniency

in return for their testimony. He also said that prosecutors exclusively relied on circumstantial evidence without a shred of forensic evidence, eyewitness testimony, or any other direct evidence that Tate killed her. He also said in his ruling...

I would think that the neighbor's testimony would be pretty damn persuasive. I agree. I think that the neighbor's testimony, the fact that she hasn't cashed a frickin' social security check in 16 years? Yes. Her parents' testimony? freaking social security check in 16 years yes her parents testimony

so he said that uh sorry i just i have to sorry i'm riled up and i've lost my place okay so he said in his ruling the prosecutors exclusively relied on circumstantial evidence without a shred of forensic evidence eyewitness testimony or other direct evidence that tate killed her he also said in his ruling that he found the testimony of the four witnesses that identified cora after april 16th to be credible and that couldn't be the case for the prosecutor's version of events to be true. I didn't even know this was possible for a judge to overturn a jury's verdict like this. Yeah.

To order a new trial, yeah, but... So the prosecution, Corris, friends and families, and jurors were all perplexed and confused by the judge's decision. I'm dumbfounded, to be honest with you, Ben McCumber, a school principal who served as the jury foreman, said, I'm frustrated. There's no words to describe how I feel, but I have no doubt over our verdict. Yeah. Another juror said Turner's ruling made him question the entire judicial system. Tate Perks' second trial was scheduled for November of 2017. In October, the prosecution filed a motion to remove Judge Turner from the case.

Yeah. the prosecution filed a motion to remove judge Turner from the case. Yeah. And after Tate requested a bench trial, judge Turner recused himself from the second murder trial because that would have been a huge conflict. Yeah. Yeah. So he does recuse himself.

And then on November 6th, his second trial was underway. This time there was no jury and judge Ian Thornhill was presiding, but the testimony was exactly the same. Judge Thornhill told both sides that he would make

his own ruling, that he had not read Judge Turner's ruling from the first trial, and he told them that he would weigh the evidence carefully. On December 9th, 2017,

more than 17 years after Cora's disappearance, Judge Thornhill found Tate Otis Perk. Not guilty. Guilty of second degree murder. Oh. He said there wasn't sufficient evidence for him to conclude that Tate had acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly, and with specific intent, which is required for first degree murder. However, there was sufficient evidence, he said, to determine Perk was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt for second degree murder. Perk showed no visible emotion when Thornhill gave his verdict or during his explanation of the verdict and points of law.

or during his explanation of the verdict and points of law. After the verdict, Ben McCumber, the foreman from the first trial, said he was glad Judge Thornhill saw the same things the jury saw. Justice is served. I will forever be baffled by Judge Turner throwing out our verdict. At sentencing, Tate showed little emotion when Deb Calvert, Austin's adopted mother, gave a victim impact statement in which she said every part of his life has been affected by the loss of his mother. Austin, now 20, suffers from mental health issues, including extreme anxiety and low self-esteem.

And she told the court that he continues to mourn the mother he barely knew on a daily basis. That's so sad on february 1st 2018 tate perk was sentenced to 50 years in prison he will have to serve 70 of that which is 35 years before becoming eligible for parole he will be 87 years old at that time cora's body has still never been found. Oh, I hate that. And that's the case of Cora Okonski. Oh my gosh. Isn't that crazy? Yes. I blew my mind when I heard that the judge could overturn that guilty verdict like that.

I mean, on the basis of something went wrong during the trial, but I don't think. I don't think something went wrong. No, that's just it. Yeah, I disagree. Yeah, I don't think something went wrong. I think that it was all circumstantial evidence, but I think it was pretty damning. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't like that at all. that there it was all circumstantial evidence but i think it was pretty damning yeah yeah yeah i don't like that at all yeah but i'm happy with the outcome so this is now the second murder trial ever in the history of i wish he'd just say where her body is that way her

family could have her parents are elderly now and they're like yeah we would love to have a proper burial for our daughter yes yeah yes she had her problems yes she lived a high risk lifestyle or whatever the police called it and she made mistakes but she was our daughter and she was a human being yeah yeah the other thing i hate about that is when someone's life gets cut that short she was 23 who knows what she could have she could have turned. That's what I'm saying. It's like, I feel like a lot of 23 year olds can be considered to have had a high risk lifestyle. 100%. Yeah. I think about all the Mike's Hard Lemonades I used to drink.

So many Mike's Hard Lemonades. And look at me now. That's right. Woman of the year in my own head right what i think i was gonna give a spoiler about your case i'm not gonna do it don't don't i'm not don't so okay and like i said i'm never doing another serial killer again i hate them my first case that I researched for this week was a serial killer case, so I'm glad that I... Seriously? It was. That would have been the darkest episode ever.

That would have sucked. And you know, the other thing I realized that sucks about serial killers, they do so much. Yeah, it's like... They do so much stuff. I remember the BGK episode was like four hours long. I was thinking that because I was like writing and writing and writing and writing. I was like, holy crap, when is this going to end? And then I finally realized, like, oh, when Brandy did BTK.

It's like, these people. Yeah. They killed too many people. It's too many people. It's too long. Yeah. It's way too much. Clearly, we're the victims here.

Yeah. Oh, God. Just kidding. That was horrible oh god okay so this one is a local one excellent it's horrible yep shout out to my mom for sending it to me so she sent me this vanity fair article which is an amazing article. And she goes, she added in, this might be too dark for the podcast. And I said, I'll send it to Brandy then. But then I actually like, I realized what it was. And I was like, oh, I've actually wanted to do this for a while. So first of all, shout out to the author, David McClintock, who wrote this for Vanity

Fair. It's called Serial Killer J.R. Robinson's Sinister Alter Ego. It's an amazing article. I'm going to say 85% of this script is just me retelling this amazing article in Vanity Fair. Just so we're totally clear. Also, I hate to be nitpicky, but Serial Killer J.R. Robinson's sinister alter ego. Do you have to call it sinister

when we're talking about a serial killer? Anyway, my one complaint. Okay, here we go. So, and you're very familiar with this, I take it? I'm pretty familiar with it, yes. But I'm sure that there's lots that I don't know. I don't know. You're pretty obsessed with serial killers.

You'll probably jump in with your own fact. No. So John Edward Robinson came to Kansas City, Missouri in the mid-60s. He was 21 years old and had just married Nancy Jo Lynch. Once he got here, he immediately got a job with a prominent Kansas City doctor, Wallace Graham. And Wallace Graham had been the personal physician for President Harry Truman. But after a few years, Dr. Graham turned John into police. John had embezzled $33,000 from him.

Holy shit. Adjusted for inflation. About $253,000. John went to trial. A jury found him guilty. You should have just done that case. And we're done here. Wouldn't that be so funny?

You know, a lot of people want to hear about the bigger trials. I'm going to focus on the small ones. So the jury found him guilty, but he didn't go to jail. He was just on probation for three years. So he's on probation, and he gets a job as a manager of a TV rental company. That was a thing. That's weird.

Uh-huh. Pretty soon, they catch him stealing. TVs? I assume. I feel like it'd be a lot easier to steal money and then go take the stolen money and buy yourself a TV. Yeah. So, they didn't press charges, though.

They just fired him. Quit being a freak. quit looking at me like that oh i did it because we talk about it on this last episode about me making weird eye contact while i opened my diet coke are you gonna make this a thing every time every time hmm i'm gonna it's too gross oh i hope you dribbled all over here I almost choked This is how I get out of telling this horrible case You just die right on the podcast

You're like, I guess that's it! Sorry everybody, this is a real bummer So, they didn't press charges. They just fired him. Then, in 1969, he got a job as a systems analyst for the Mobile Oil Corporation. All right. Which was a pretty good job. Yeah, that sounds like a good job.

And his probation officer did him a real solid because he decided not to let mobile oil know that john was on probation the officer said that john does not appear to be an individual who is basically inclined toward criminal activities and is motivated toward achieving middle class values spoiler alert he's fucking wrong just a little you, sometimes you can kind of misjudge people. Another probation officer agreed. She was like, this guy is doing great on probation. Thumbs up all the way. He can really go far with mobile oil.

And they were both right. He did great. And they were both right. He did great. And that's the story of how John Edward Robinson went from a life of crime to middle management at Mobile Oil. Are we inspired yet? Listen, Brady, just because you steal from a couple companies doesn't mean you can't turn it around. Okay, no. Two weeks after that glowing review from the probation officer,

John got caught stealing 6,200 stamps from his job. The fuck was he going to do with 6,000 stamps? I have no idea. Of all the lame things to steal. No, shit. This time, the company fired him. He sells stamps on the black market. He's got just a trench coat full of stamps. He's naked under there, too.

Ew! So it's like, he's both a flasher and he's selling stamps. Kind of like how he's a con artist and a serial killer. Exactly. Lesson is, you don't have to wear just one hat. He's like that awful person at every job he's like i'm just so busy i'm just i have so much going on you can understand i just put out fires can we put all the people who say they just go around putting fire putting out fires into a room together and just leave them alone. Oh, God.

Don't you feel like sometimes there's one sentence someone can say and you go, oh, boy. Yeah. I just spend my whole day putting out fires. And firefighters don't actually say that. I was going to say, what if they're a firefighter? Then they get the exception to the rule. Then they can leave the room okay things aren't going great for john and nancy they moved to chicago but the thing is chicago has great stuff to steal too so he embezzled five thousand five hundred dollars

again he was caught yeah he's been caught i, were there times that he wasn't getting caught? You know, that's actually a good question. There had to be or why would he keep doing it? Right. I mean, yeah, but it just seems like every job they have on record for him ended with him. Maybe he stole a lot before he got yes caught well and that was one of the things they said about that doctor in kansas city that the estimate is that he may have stolen actually three times the amount they caught i completely believe it so again he's caught he's fired

but the charges were dismissed nancy is she just putting up with this bullshit nancy is interesting okay and we will get to her excellent yeah um i'm sorry i don't mean to be making this story longer than you've already told us i hope you're ready to sit here for five years so the charges were dismissed i'll say nothing for the rest of this podcast just stare at me creepily. The charges were dismissed because John's dad stepped in and paid the bill.

So they were like, easy peasy, we're done here. So now John and Nancy are back in Kansas City and he's like immediately arrested for violating probation. They lock him up. But the probation officers had a lot of faith in John.

They were like, we're just doing this to motivate him to stop all this horrible behavior. After a few weeks, they let him go. But they did extend his probation to another five years, all the way to 1976. Yeah, because the probation is so effective for him. Uh-huh. They, I tell you what, people who encountered him seemed to just love him. Like, they were so charmed by him, especially these probation officers. They just thought he was great. Great. great.

This whole time they're like, we believe in this guy. The kid's got a shot at really turning this thing around. But you're not going to believe this. John got caught stealing again. What? This time it was from a neighbor. She gave him $30,000 to invest.

She was a retired school teacher, by the way. So like to be her life savings that had to be a lot of money yes um shock he did not invest that money yeah yeah but missouri probation officers didn't know about the neighbor and they ended his probation two years early that eye roll was over the top And they ended his probation two years early. That eye roll was over the top. So John's got his freedom back. Couldn't be more well-deserved. Oh, my gosh.

And he decides to become an entrepreneur. He starts, do you not know this? I don't know. Okay. He starts the Professional Service Association Incorporated. Such a great name. It really tells you what it is. I'm so glad you say that because I have in my notes, that is the most bullshit name for a company I've ever heard of.

Like if I wanted to come up with a fake sounding company, Professional Service Association would be it. But at any rate, he started this company, association would be it uh but anyway he started this company which he said was supposed to provide financial consultations to kansas city doctors so here's the thing john was charming he dressed well he was decent looking right he was a really good conversationalist so a bunch of doctors at ku med hired him but pretty quickly they fired him yeah shocker turns out he was mishandling their finances wow we didn't see that coming i do think it's smart if you're going to embezzle from people to start a financial consulting company because the people who hire you

are obviously people who are struggling in that area so maybe they'd be but but he got caught every time yeah um but he kept at it didn't bother john that they'd fired him he kept working to recruit new investors and he always portrayed professional service association as a very fast growing company and in letters to potential investors john said that marion laboratories always portrayed Professional Service Association as a very fast-growing company. And in letters to potential investors, John said that Marion Laboratories was trying to buy his company. So for people outside of Kansas City, Marion Laboratories was founded by Ewan Kaufman,

who at the time owned the Kansas City Royals. So when you say that to people in Kansas City, that Marion Laboratories wants to buy my company, that's a big deal. But once again, John got caught doing bad stuff. A grand jury indicted him on four counts of fraud. He received a $2,500 fine and got three years probation. The fuck? How many times can you get probation? You're gonna find out that the answer is a lot.

So now we're in 1977. Okay. John is 33. At this point, I wrote, John is 33, but at this point, he and Nancy have four children. I don't know how these things are at odds with one another, but that's what I have on my notes.

Can you believe he has four children by 33? It seems impossible medically. So at this point, they buy a home in Johnson County, Kansas. Yes. We've talked a little bit about what Johnson County is in relationship to like Kansas City, Missouri, KCK on this podcast. But I'm going to read to you directly from this Vanity Fair article describing Johnson County, Kansas, because I think this is hilarious. Oh, gosh. It was one of the richest counties in the United States, 480 square miles of sleek suburban affluence.

Some of the towns had Shawnee names, such as Lenexa, for the wife of an Indian chief, and the county seat, Olathe, beautiful. The people of Johnson County felt a bit superior to their Missouri neighbors, and once you crossed into Kansas, there was a different feeling. The light seemed brighter. The landscape less dingy. The Kansans were richer, smarter, nicer, gentler. Better looking. Fuck you! In case you couldn't tell where Brandy lives

and where I live. I will say, I think the author actually lives here, so you know. But yeah, I think that's a pretty fair assessment. So, except for the richer, smarter, nice, well,

richer for sure. Maybe nicer too, I don't know. Yeah. Well, I don't know. You guys ended up with the serial killer, so. Oh, yeah. You never had any serial killers over here in Kansas City, Missouri. Shut up.

It's a future episode. So now John has moved on up. Yeah. And he's in the Pleasant Valley Farms neighborhood. And he's got a new job, too. He started a new company called hydro grow which was a company that taught people how to grow vegetables indoors he had this little booklet and he was supposedly this speaker who could go around and help you out his neighbors thought he was awesome

he was so smart and his kids were all so sweet and he took really good care of his yard, which in Johnson County, Kansas, like, man, that's important. That's maybe more important than being a good guy and a good father. So things are going great. In 1977, John was named Man of the Year. By who? Do you not know this part? No. This is like my favorite part. Man of the Year. By who? Do you not know this part of the story? No! This is like my favorite part.

Okay. So he was named Man of the Year for all the great work he did helping handicapped people. Turns out in his free time he was the head of a non-profit

that gave jobs to disabled people. Brandy, why do you look skeptical? Sounds great, right? No! Well, the mayor thought so. Oh, God. The mayor signed John's Man of the Year Award, and there was this big ceremony for him.

It was really nice. The Kansas City Star came out and covered it, did an article. the Kansas City Star came out and covered it, did an article. But it turns out that all the letters that had poured into the mayor's office saying, hey, we should give John Robinson a Man of the Year award. Were written by John Robinson? Uh-huh. Oh, gosh! He had forged the signatures of all these different prominent people in Kansas City.

So the Man of the Year Award and the ceremony itself was all orchestrated by John Robinson for John Robinson. Wow. So the Kansas City Star followed up their first article. It's like the Kanye West of Johnson County. Don't say that about Kanye. I mean, at this point. Okay, I was going to say. He hasn't gotten to the bad stuff yet.

So the Kansas City Star followed up their first article with a new one. This time the headline read, Man of the Year ploy. Question mark? Man of the Year? Don't think so. No, it read, Man of the Year ploy backfires on honoree. And honoree is in quotation marks.

Alright, that's pretty good. So pretty soon the neighbors start to change their opinion on him a bit. They're like, meh, he's kind good. So pretty soon, the neighbors start to change their opinion on him a bit. They're like, meh, he's kind of a cocky jerk. And we don't always love the way he talks to Nancy or the kids. And at one point around this time, Nancy's kind of like, I kind of want a divorce. She kind of wants a divorce? She's considering a divorce. Okay.

But they go to marriage counseling. All right. And things work out, so they stay together. Now it's 1980. John is still running Hydro-Gro, but he decides to get another full-time job at a local subsidiary of Borden, the food company. You're not going to believe this. Does he get caught stealing from them? Yes.

Cheese slices this time? Just a bunch of cottage cheese. Who am I to judge? So he stole more than $40,000, which he spent on an apartment in Olathe, Kansas, which he basically used as a sex spot. Sex pet. We've all got one. Don't you pretend you don't have a sex spot. Sex pad. We've all got one. Ah, don't you pretend you don't have a sex pad, Princess.

And it's located in Olathe. Everyone's sex pad is located in Olathe, Kansas. So he had this sex pad that was basically for him and these two other women who also worked at Borden. Hmm. Were they having threesomes? The article didn't get into that. I don't know if they knew about one another. Frankly, I'm grossed out.

Now you don't need to know the details. I was like, that's enough. This article gets into crazy detail about some other stuff that I did not need. This guy was... Anyway. Yeah, I know. Okay. So this time, john had really crossed the line

missouri was like okay we see that you have a serious criminal record we see what you did here the maximum sentence for this crime is seven years so we're putting you away for seven wow i'm just kidding. He gets probation again? No. Okay, so the maximum sentence was seven years, but they gave him two months of jail time and five years of probation. Brandy, he was just a good guy who'd learned his lesson. He has to be the most charming asshole on the planet.

I know. I know. So this goes on and on. So I'm going to speed this up a bit. You're just going to start talking faster? What you should do is you should speed it up in the recording. When you're editing.

It just sounds like you, you know, smoked a little meth real fast. So let me get this straight. I'm never going to walk to the store for cigarettes but i'm gonna smoke meth for the podcast bit of a jump i didn't do any of the gateway drugs you're supposed to do before well i have a cocktail occasionally in the, and then I just tried meth one day. So he creates another side business.

But this one was also bullshit. Which one's this? This is the part I'm speeding up, so I'm not going to get into all the details of all of them. Great. Another business. Yeah, another business. Another bullshit. The district attorney's office got involved and his lawyer is like, look, dude, you need to... Sorry. What?

I thought about the meth again. Does it seem out of place? After, in the Mona Lisa episode, well, the other serial killer episode, the BTK one, the hardest drug I could come up with was ibuprofen. Now you've gone straight to the meth. So his lawyer is like, look, you need to get affidavits saying that your invoices are legit. And John's like, okay. No problem.

I'll just cook those up. That's exactly what he did. He was like, fine, I can make that up. Then he starts another business called equi two what not a good business names um yeah so another really terrible fake business name uh let's see until this point, most people... Sorry. I'm looking at a paragraph that I wrote that makes no sense.

This could be the meth talking, but it really makes no sense to me now. So, until this point, most people believed that he'd stolen a bunch and committed a ton of fraud he was a con man running these fake little companies hosting awards luncheons for himself but when he started equa 2 he changed things up he decided that he needed to hire someone to help him with all that important work he was doing. Yep. So in 1984, he hired Paula Godfrey.

Paula had just graduated high school. I think she went to Olathe North. She was a great student. She was an amazing figure skater. And John charmed her. He's like, look, I've got a great opportunity for you. I'm going to put you in a training course in Texas and I'll pay for everything. And of course, Paula.

God, what a great opportunity. Oh, my God. Yeah. She's like, this sounds amazing. So on the day that she was scheduled to go to Texas, John offered her a ride to the airport. Then. Nothing. Her parents didn't hear from her for several days.

They were pretty worried, so they contacted the police. They were like, our daughter is missing. They told the police about John and how he was the last person they'd seen with her. So the police went to John and he was like, what? I have no idea where she is. That was all he had? A little while later, police got a letter from Paula. Oh, for fuck's sake.

Signed, not John Robinson. Yeah, this is like, I feel like the con man stuff, it's kind of like, oh, okay. Oh, geez. And now it's just, it's going to get really bad. Sorry, folks. here we go. So the letter said that she was okay, and just not interested in seeing her family again. Yeah, yes, you know, like, children often send to their parents. And the police were like, yeah, this seems legit.

What the fuck? So they suspended their investigation yeah this this makes me so angry they they got this letter and they were like oh okay never mind she's fine then a few months later john had a great idea for a non-profit he started kansas city outreach which i think is actually a really good name for a non-profit and i looked it up it is a name for a non-profit in kansas city which is kind of too bad yeah but anyway this was an organization that would provide housing as well as job training and daycare services to unwed mothers and their babies sounds amazing sure if it wasn't total bullshit yeah he took this idea to truman medical center and this other organization called birthright which apparently

really did help unwed pregnant women. So he told these two legit organizations, hey, why don't you send me some good candidates who you think would like to be part of my very real program? By the way, the funding for this is coming from some major international corporations. I think he said Xerox was invested in this. Hey, why not? Shoot for the stars, right? This is like the mid-80s, like xerox was invested in this hey why not shoot for the stars right this is like the mid-80s like xerox was huge yeah so like a month later truman medical center reached out to john they're like hey we've got a candidate for you her name is lisa stassi

she's 19 and she just gave birth to a baby girl named Tiffany. I know, I know, this is so bad. John's like, great. I'll give her an apartment on Troost. I'll help her get her GED. I'll get her some job training. Pretty soon, they got her on the phone with him, and he's like, hey, my name is John Osborne,

and I'm going to help you out. He ended up taking Lisa and baby Tiffany to the Roadway Inn in Overland Park. A few days later, John goes to Lisa. He says, good news. I've got an opportunity for you in Chicago. You can take Tiffany with you, of course. I just need a few things from you. First, sign these four pieces of blank stationery. The fuck? Mm-hmm. Also, give me the addresses of all your relatives. Don't worry, I'll let your relatives know where you are, because you're going to be so busy in Chicago, you won't have time to contact them. But before she left Chicago, Lisa talked about the opportunity with her relatives.

And for the most part, they were like, uh, I don't know. Yeah. Probably the most vocal person was Lisa's sister-in-law, Kathy Klingensmith. Kathy was like, hold on,

how well do you know this guy? Yeah, exactly. And who is he? But Lisa was like, he's great, he's generous, this is legit, I'm doing this.

So John picked her up, and Lisa... Too legit. To quit. Too legit to quit. God. Have you no self-control? So John picks her up and Lisa and Tiffany left.

But the next day, Kathy still felt really weird about the whole thing. So she called the roadway in where she knew they'd been staying. And the clerk was like, yeah, she's gone. Her bill is paid. And Kathy's like, yes, she's gone. Her bill is paid. And Kathy's like, okay, who paid it? The clerk said, John Robinson. So not John Osborne, which was the name she'd been given. And also he paid with a corporate credit card under the name Equi2.

Not Kansas City Outreach or anything like that. At this point, Kathy's like, oh no. She immediately knew something horrible had happened. Meanwhile, across town, John's brother and sister-in-law, Dawn and Helen Robinson, had just flown in to Kansas City from their home in Chicago. John had amazing news for them. He's like, I know how badly you two have been wanting a baby.

You've been trying for forever to adopt one. Well, I've got great connections. So he drives them over to the Equitoo offices. Got you a fresh baby uh-huh he had them sign what looked like real adoption papers they paid him five thousand five hundred dollars in fees and then he took them home where his wife nancy was waiting for them with a beautiful baby girl. John's like, hey, her mom just committed suicide. So this baby is yours. They were overjoyed.

Yeah. They were so excited. They took Tiffany back to Chicago and named her Heather. Those are the most 80s names. Like Tiffany wasn't 80s enough. They had to go to Heather. They're like,iffany has been done let's do heather you're right those are like number one and two but all the while kathy was like kathy was still like there's something very wrong here

her husband david agreed so he went to the equa 2 office and confronted john Kathy was still like, there's something very wrong here. Her husband, David, agreed. So he went to the Equitoo office and confronted John. He's like, where the hell are Lisa and Tiffany? And John's like, get out of here. So Kathy went to the police and reported Lisa and Tiffany missing. But Kathy wasn't the only one who was suspicious of john robinson may i just pause and say how infuriating it is when you see how early these yeah and then you think about how long it took him to get no shit okay so i mentioned earlier that he approached

truman medical center and an organization called birthright and truman evidently didn't see anything wrong with him but ann smith the woman he talked to at birthright did he told her that kansas city outreach was affiliated with his church and that a bunch of the people at his bank where he was on the board of directors were huge supporters of kansas city outreach so ann's like okay but i'm gonna verify all this yeah before i send women to you uh yeah so she calls up the church and they're like well yeah he's a member but we've never heard of that program. She calls up the bank and they're like, who? Oh my gosh.

We've never heard of that guy. At this point, Ann is very suspicious. Yeah. And she doesn't have Google because it's 1984. So she has to be Google. So eventually all of her searches take her to the Missouri Board of Probation and Parole, where she talks to this guy named Stephen Hames.

And Stephen's like, hang on, let me pull his file. Oh, this dude has quite a record. Let me see if he's done anything in Kansas. Because that's the thing. It's like, for people who don't know, we're right here on the state line so people can kind of be sketch balls and just switch states exactly so he calls over to Kansas and the Kansas dude is like yep he has a crazy record here too but we've never had like real problems with him but Stephen is like nonetheless nonetheless, I'm going to ask this guy to come into my office. So he sends John a letter.

And the letter is like, hey, January 17th, 1985, my office. Be there, be square. John doesn't show. So this time Stephen sends a registered letter, which I assume is the same as like a certified letter, right? Yeah. So he's like, okay, January 24th. I mean it this time. John shows up. Mm-hmm.

And I just want to include this. Stephen recalled that he looked like the Pillsbury Doughboy. What? I'm only including it because it seemed like everyone else was so charmed but he was like it looked like the dough boy to me oh my gosh he only said that because he showed up completely naked with just a handkerchief around his neck

so John was super friendly and explained that this was all just a misunderstanding boy that birthright lady really got things mixed up what an overreaction yeah that was his take he was like and as proof of how wrong she was john was like look i'm already working with truman medical center they've placed a few young women with me and i've got them in apartments on truce avenue Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. John was missing. And Truman Medical Center was starting to be a little like, oopsies.

Should we have vetted this guy just a smidge? So Stephen calls over to the Overland Park Police Department and was like, hey, are you guys as concerned about this Lisa Stacy thing as I am? And they're like, not really. No, And they're like, not really.

No, so they were like, we didn't find any evidence of wrongdoing, so we're not really looking into it. And oh, by the way, totally weird thing, unrelated, I'm sure, but another woman who used to work with him, Paula Godfrey, we can't find her anywhere. Oh, but don't worry, because she sent us that letter. Yeah, she know she's cool so it's all good for me

yeah yeah i would really love to know more about how that conversation actually went because that just sounds mind-boggling you know we're not worried about lisa oh look look right here in our file we've got another missing woman who's linked to him just a few months earlier. I mean, that just... I... But, and thank God for this, Stephen was not a fucking idiot. So he's like, no, I've talked to Lisa's family and this seems wrong. She told them that he had her sign a bunch of blank stationery before she left which i'm sorry is just weird that's not normal and when they got these letters that were supposedly from

her they didn't sound like her at all and oh by the way these letters were typed and she didn't know how to type so this is weird so steven's i will say that anybody can hunt and peck this is true on a keyboard this is true but when you think about what's she more comfortable doing yeah yeah she would have handwritten it yeah for sure so steven straight up asks john robinson where is lisa and john's like oh lisa oh she ran off to colorado with some guy named bill and at this point steven's like, oh, Lisa, oh, she ran off to Colorado with some guy named Bill. And at this point, Stephen's like, nope, hard no. Yeah. This guy sucks.

I'm calling the FBI. He talks to the FBI. What? Are you fucking serious? Yes. This is shocking, right? The FBI was involved this early? Yes.

Holy shitballs. It is mind-blowing. Mm-hmm. Should we reveal right now how long it took for him to get arrested? No. People just have to wait five years and figure it out. That is correct. Okay.

Six months later, he was arrested. Okay. So he's like, I'm calling in the FBI. He talks to the FBI and he's like, look, there are two women and one baby missing. He's done this in Kansas and Missouri. So it is federal. We know he's a con man. I think he's escalated.

I need your help. The FBI is like, okay. He gets two agents, Agent Thomas Lavin and Agent Jeffrey Dancer. Join. Hold me closer, Jeffrey Dancer. That is a magical name. But don't you think those FBI guys gave him so much shit? Oh, I'm sure.

Dancer. Send you over to Agent Dancer. So they join Stephen in the investigation and they're looking into John and of course they discover that he's shady as hell and has been for a very long time.

But they also discovered that the Pillsbury Doughboy was into kinky sex. Yeah. You say that like, aren't we all? No. No, so this is when they figured out that he was really into BDSM.

Like, heavily. Like, not just mildly. Not your entry level. So that's when these three investigators figured out that john had basically created a sex work business the article doesn't use the word pimp but i mean if this isn't a pimp i don't know what is so here's what he did he created this business where people could come and pay prostitutes for snm sex and he'd hired a male stripper nicknamed Eminem to recruit women.

Excellent. Yes. Eminem liked the candy, by the way, in case you're wondering. Not like the rapper? No, this was before the rapper. So the agents are like, well, this is gross. But I think they were kind of hoping that they would find Lisa or Paula

somehow wrapped up in this. They figured they'd find her. Literally wrapped up in the closet? Ew. No. Sarah, that's what you meant? No. I think they hoped that they would find out that they'd, like, been involved in prostitution.

They were still alive and well. Oh, God. Sorry. So, anyway, and well. Oh, God. Sorry. So anyway, they weren't part of it. They were still nowhere. So Stephen is very frustrated. He calls John back into his office for another meeting. And this time, John is like, what?

I'm just trying to help people. Why are you on my case? Yeah. And he's like, oh, oh, by the way, you can stop worrying. Lisa is fine. The baby is fine. I just heard from a woman who recently babysat Tiffany. Please, let's never speak of this again.

So, of course, they question the babysitter. Yeah. And she's like, yeah, yeah, I just saw Lisa and I just babysat Tiffany. Mm-hmm. yeah and she's like yeah yeah i just saw lisa and i just babysat tiffany but they're like uh was this john doing a woman's it was john in a woman's dress and hat it was like bugs bunny where like he only had a costume change maybe some lipstick no so they're like we going to stay a while and we're going to ask you a ton of questions. And pretty soon the lady is like, OK, I don't know who Lisa is.

I don't know Tiffany. John asked me to lie to you guys because I owe him money. Yeah. By this point, Stephen and the FBI guys are like, oh, my God, we know this guy did something, but we don't have anything on him. So they start testing out just all kinds of shit, anything they can do. At one point, a female FBI agent went undercover and she met with John and she was pretending that she wanted to be one of his S&M sex workers. And, of course, John met her for lunch in Overland Park. Maybe at Cheddar's.

We don't know. And he was like, yeah, you can make a couple thousand bucks in a weekend. You'll get the shit pinched out of your nipples, but it'll be fine. No, what he did tell her was, like, she had to be prepared for like nipple clamps or maybe it was pliers he said i don't know it didn't sound pleasant not your thing clearly clearly not into it um so of course she was wearing a wire the whole time. I was fine with the clamps. The pliers is where I dropped the line.

Well, clamps, like nipple clamps, that seems like they have this purpose. And, like, you know, there's a limit to how hard they're going to clamp you, right? But a plier, that's a tool. Oh. But a plier, that's a tool. We don't need to get professional grade tools in here. If it can take a nail out of a wall, it doesn't need to be on my body. You know, you're really hitting a nerve for me right now because as I was writing this last night, I was like, I don't want to be judgmental of people who are into it,

but it's just not my thing. And I feel like me thinking I'm not being judgmental is actually very judgmental. Just know that I'm trying. Just know that I'm trying. So this FBI agent, she's wearing a wire the whole time. But the FBI was so freaked out by John Robinson that they were eventually like, yeah, we need to pull the plug on this. We can't have you go too undercover with this guy.

He's going to kill you. I'm sorry. That's not funny. Why are you laughing is it the nipple pliers hey but but the good thing is you get $3,000 a weekend for it. Oh, God. Like, are you using your nipples? If not, how much are they worth? Oh, God.

So they pulled the plug on the undercover stuff. So they still had some other angles to try. John was already under investigation for forging government checks. Oh, no. I can't stop. We are never going to finish this episode. Oh, no. Oh, no.

Ladies and gentlemen, she's reaching for the Diet Coke. A known anti-laughing liquid. This will solve the problem. I got it under control. Sounds like it. You know, I was worried this would be too dark. Apparently not. Oh my gosh. Okay, so John was already under investigation for forging government checks. And he'd done that with this guy named Irv

Blattner. That sounds like a fake name. It sure does. Although, if you were going to do a fake name, wouldn't you choose something further away from Blatter? Probably. Okay. So Irv worked with the police to help with their case against John.

And in the meantime, the police were like, Hey, Truman Medical Center, get those two women the hell out of that apartment. Give John, you know, a reasonable, not suspicious excuse and get them the hell away from that guy. Months pass by. They're still watching John, but they don't have enough on him. Yeah. That's when John met Teresa Williams. Teresa was 21 years old, cute. John offered her a job as a sex worker and his mistress. He's like, I'll pay for your apartment as well as your expenses, and I'll give you drugs. She's like, sold.

Like, sold. So on April 30th, 1985, John gave her $2,500, a nice dress, and told her that a limo would pick her up that evening. Sure enough, the limo comes. The driver blindfolds her and takes her to a mansion somewhere in Kansas City. I would love to know where. Oh my gosh, I want to know so bad. Yeah. When she took off the blindfold, she saw a sophisticated older man who wanted to be called Judge. He led her down to a dungeon-style basement where he stretched her out naked on a medieval rack.

Medieval? Medieval. She started screaming and panicking. She's like, let me go, let me go, let me go. And finally, he did let her go. She got back into the limo, was blindfolded again, and was sent back to the Troost apartment. By the way, Troost is a road in Kansas City.

I just realized that. I've been saying that a lot. And this podcast goes beyond. It's kind of a controversial road actually it's kind of just it's like our super racist dividing line very super very super racist dividing line yes oh our great city so a few days later john shows up and he's pissed he's like give me that money back you know he's mad mad mad and so the fbi by this point is aware of theresa of course and on june 7th they show up at her door and at first she's like what oh i'm just an employee of equa too i don't know what you guys are worried

about and they're like okay hold on how much do you trust this John Robinson guy? Because we think he's murdered two women. And that's when Teresa kind of freaked out. Yeah. She unloads that whole story. She's like, he pulled a gun on me. But then later we made up and he said he'd take me to the Virgin Islands. And he's been making me write these fake diary entries where I say that his friend, Irv Blattner, has been threatening to kill me.

What the fuck? And oh, by the way, he had me sign a bunch of blank stationery. Yeah. Oh my gosh so police obviously suspected okay john robinson must have known that irv blattner had kind of turned on him and he was obviously framing this guy yeah so they're all sitting kill her yeah and frame irv blattner for it sure yeah so they're all sitting there it will also look like irv Blatner killed the other missing women. Irv Blatner.

I wonder if he's still around. I don't know. Okay. Anyway. Another time. So they're all sitting there at this apartment having this conversation when all of a sudden they hear a key in the door. John walks in the fbi agents are like fuck yeah we did not expect this like i said theresa had this fake diary but the original fake diary was written by john she was just supposed to transcribe the whole thing. So she'd been copying it down. So, which, I'm sorry, what did she think that was for?

I have no idea. Like, right? Yeah. Okay. So. Which I thought was a weird fetish thing. That is, no. No, nipple play is a weird fetish.

Diary copying is not a fetish. I don't know. I'm an expert, and I can tell youary copying is not a fetish. I mean, I don't know! I'm an expert. And I can tell you, it is not. So, one of the agents holds up the original diary and is like, is this your handwriting, John? And John's like,

yeah. Oh, look at the time. Better go. Goodbye. Oh my gosh. So he left. In that moment, the agents had to let him go. Yeah. But they did tell Teresa, hey, get the fuck out of here. We've got to get you out of this apartment and do not have contact with John.

My God, he is definitely going to kill you. Yes. They immediately got to work. They brought Stephen back in and they're like, let's interrogate the shit out of John. And then they're like, let's go to court. Yeah. And let the court know that this guy, who is on probation, has been accused of carrying a gun, supplying drugs to someone, and lying to his probation officer. Yeah.

Stephen's like, look, this dude needs to be in jail, not on probation. Probation should be done for this guy. No more probation. And a judge was like, you know what? You're right. And then John got out on bail. Oh, my gosh. Meanwhile, the FBI was keeping Teresa safe.

They hid her, and eventually they were like, here's a one-way ticket far the hell away from kansas city enjoy yeah goodbye in the meantime john appealed the judge's decision against him he said his constitutional rights had been violated because he hadn't been able to confront his accuser theresa williams and the appellate court agreed with him. Holy shit! So, John was free. I know. Is this fucking real? Unfortunately.

Oh my gosh. I know. This is nuts. I feel so conflicted because on the one hand, yes, you should be able to confront your accuser. But at the same time, good grief, can there be an exception in a case like this? So Stephen and the two FBI agents were pissed. Yeah.

And by the way, John still had a really good reputation. A few days after he was set free, he was on the cover of Farm Journal magazine because he was apparently an expert on agricultural finance. Oh, okay. Now he's stealing farmer's money? Sure. But around that time, the district attorney in Johnson County, Kansas, came forward with a case against John. Who was the district attorney at that time? Do you know?

No. I'm just curious. I left out a few details. No, that's fine. There's plenty in here. So it didn't have anything to do with missing women. It was another fraud charge. Yeah.

Because again, he wore many hats. Yes. All day long, he put out fires. Just so busy. Just so, so busy. So, I think we've heard enough about his fraud. So, I'm not going to go into the fraud case. Long story short, he was sentenced to six to 19 years.

Wow. And, of course, he appealed everything. Yeah. Eventually went to prison in 1987. Shortly before he went to prison, though, 27-year-old Catherine Clampett went missing. She came to Kansas after seeing an ad in the newspaper, which, of course, John had placed there,

advertising, quote, a great job, a lot of traveling, and a new wardrobe. After she'd been gone a few weeks, her brother called the police. But the police said they didn't have sufficient evidence linking her to John. Her brother's name's Jethro.

Next thing you know, old Jethro's in here. Ken folks said, Jethro with me. Did you expect me to know so many of the words? I could keep going. So John went to prison, and he did really well in prison. Prison staff quickly discovered that John was super smart. Okay, this is so weird.

So they gave him a job in computer programming, and thanks to his expertise and good work, he actually saved the Kansas prison system about $100,000 a year. Wow. They loved him there. Oh, my gosh. They thought he was a model prisoner, completely nonviolent, so of course he got out early.

Of course he did. He'd served less than four years holy shit but he was still eligible to serve time in missouri so he went to missouri the people in missouri loved him too both sides of the state line big fans of this guy especially the prison doctor and his wife bever Beverly Bonner, the prison librarian. In fact, Beverly liked John so much that she gave him a job in the prison library. He got out in 1993. And, you know, by that point, John and Nancy couldn't exactly afford to live in Johnson County anymore. So they moved to a trailer park in Belton, Missouri.

Oh! Not far from my parents. So, you know, John still had his HydroGro business. And that prison librarian, Beverly Bonner, well, after John got out of prison, she divorced her husband. Yeah. Moved to Kansas City. Took a job as president of HydroG uh-huh and started banging john right yeah it's funny the vanity fair article didn't

say that but every other article i read after that did so i was like i don't know why he kept that up but anyway i guess he couldn't include everything. This Vanity Fair article, it is detailed. It's a hefty one. Pretty soon, Beverly's mom started getting letters from her. Things at HydroGrow were going great, and the job was going to mean a lot of international traveling. Of course it was. Like, yeah, I'll be all over the place.

In the meantime, could you send all my alimony checks to a P.O. box in Olathe, Kansas? Mm-hmm. So her mom did. Oh, my gosh. At around this time, John started communicating with Sheila Faith, a Colorado widow whose teenage daughter, Debbie, was in a wheelchair. I think Debbie was like 15.

I'm not sure. Sheila was in love with John. She was totally charmed by him um and he said all the right things of course he's super charming he was like you'll never have to work again i want to take you and debbie on a cruise i will take care of your daughter you know we'll put her in a really great school so she Sheila and Debbie planned to go visit John. But then in early summer of 1994, he showed up at their house in the middle of the night.

And just like Beverly, they were never heard from again. And also like Beverly, the disability checks went to the P.O. Box in Olathe, Kansas. So when John wasn't hitting up that P.O. box in Olathe, Kansas. So when John wasn't hitting up that P.O. box in Olathe, he was reading the Kansas City Alternative Newspaper, The Pitch, which is a good, they still make The Pitch, right? Yeah, it's still around. Okay. I mean, it's a good reputation, good publication. Yes.

Reputable publication. Thank you. Thank you. That makes me sound less like an idiot. Like I really did want to use that word. So he was a big fan of the personals column. Oh, the back page? Mm-hmm.

You seen it before, have you? In early September of 1995, he saw an ad that caught his eye. A successful woman wanted, quote, a masterful, successful swm and as a big fan of the back page single white male there you go know what that's about john's like that's me yeah so he calls her and the woman is actually successful is masterful code oh i'm sure yeah right yeah yeah for she wants a bdsm she wants a dom yeah she wants those pliers toolbox is another code

just kidding don't actually do that i don't want people writing in oh gosh i put in my craigslist ad that i wanted a real toolbox no so she's actually super successful she's got some guy that wants to toss hot dogs we're so confused so do you know the story of this woman no i don't think so i think it's super interesting so she lives in topeka kansas and for this article she went by chloe elizabeth for privacy reasons obviously basically she said she was dominant in all aspects of her life and wanted to be submissive in bed. So Chloe was pretty cautious about John. They talked a lot on the phone before they met. And she asked for documents to prove that he was who he said he was.

And of course he did that. He sent her all kinds of stupid shit like the man of the year award. Oh yes. The copy of farm journal that featured him on the cover and even a newspaper article from when he was a 13-year-old Eagle Scout meeting Queen Elizabeth. Wonderful. All Eagle Scouts are creeps.

I only say that because I know the exact one. You said that the last time I mentioned an Eagle Scout. Is this a running joke that I just think is always hilarious? No. BTk was an eagle scout uh you know the serial killer in the making that we also did i think he was also an eagle maybe that's what i'm thinking maybe it wasn't btk btk was a boy scout leader he might not have been an eagle scout serial killer in the making was an eagle scout that's where that reference came from very good thank you for keeping me on my toes. Accuracy is very important here.

So, Chloe was like, whoa, this guy's the real deal. Which I completely understand. I mean, if somebody sent me that, why would you question any of it? So, she invited him to her house at 2 p.m. on October 25th, 1995. I wrote, she invited him to come to her house. Oh, wait, no. I wrote it right. I read it wrong.

Anyway, they set the date. He shows up. When he showed up, he was dressed in a very nice navy suit. And she was wearing exactly what he said he wanted her to wear. A sheer thong, a demi-cup bra, and a sheer robe. I can't imagine

that he said demi-cup bra. I mean, do men really know that much about bras? I wouldn't think so. I prefer the demi-cup. But, maybe.

A BDSM master might. See, I feel like it's more likely that a guy would just be like, a black bra. So I think that a regular man would probably... Are you saying this guy isn't normal? That is exactly what I'm saying.

Well, let's keep reading and find out together. So they kissed and he had her sign a slave contract and he tied her sign a slave contract and he tied her up he slapped her until she cried and then he stopped and told her that he loved her and he untied her then he did a bunch of other weird stuff like tying a rope around her boobs okay this is this is when you know they lose me trying to be non-judgmental here but he like he tied a rope around one boob until oh god until it was like bright red then he did the other one and like her quotes in this article i mean she was just loving it but i mean the way she described it i

was like oh my god no she was talking about how her nipples turned purple and, like, got, like, three times the size that they should be. And, like, she said her boobs were as red as cherry tomatoes. Oh, my God. Again, different strokes for different folks. Also, I feel like we should have a video right now because I'm covering my boobs. I know. Like, you're afraid I'm'm gonna come over and tie them up i don't know you could lasso me from over there

so um she was super into it she called their first date sensational did she spell it like s-i-n oh gross and then she winked yeah man i don't know but here's the weird thing uh-huh that's me when i was ready trying to be getting to the weird thing. That rope stuff with the boobs, totally normal. We've all been there. We all love it. So before he left, he told her that she'd been stupid to let him do all that stuff to her. And that, quote, I could have killed you.

Yeah. But Chloe was kind of like, okay, dude. She wasn't worried. Because the whole time, without John's knowledge, she'd had a male friend hiding in the house just to make sure things didn't get too crazy. Wow. Right?

I mean. Wow. Yeah. That's nuts. And here's the thing. This friend went downstairs and wrote down john's license while they were upstairs she's smart uh yeah her poor boobs took a beating though

she liked it i know i know that's. That's why I'm being ridiculous. She enjoyed it. That's all that matters. Why do I care? She didn't ask you to do it. Thank God. But John and Chloe's relationship keeps moving forward. You know, they both seem to enjoy what happened.

They see John. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry to people who are into BDSM. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm really sorry to people who are into BDSM. I'm, you know, like. We're really not judging about it at all.

I'm not. Kristen's slightly judging. I'm just squeamish is all. So they see each other like twice a week, but things seem a little off. Yeah. Chloe had a friend

in the state government and she asked the friend to run john's plates and of course the car came back under john and nancy's names but he'd said that he was divorced so she's like i don't know at one point john was like let's go on a european vacation together and she's like well okay yeah here's the thing i think she had money yeah and so like the idea of a european vacation to her wasn't like this huge big thing but like some i'd be like yes all right how much stationery should i sign but she was like i can pay for my own european vacation oh well speaking of stationery so then he's like first sign these blank pieces of stationery and give me lists of all your relatives addresses and she hopefully was like fuck no exactly she was like that's weird i'm not doing i'm not going to europe with you we're cool yeah then

eventually i assume through her friend at the state government she found out about his record and she broke things off so now it's 1996 john and nancy moved back to kansas by this point the internet is a big thing and john was a big fan. He had five computers and he spent tons of times tons of times tons of times all the times sometimes he spent tons

of time on BDSM websites. His username was Slave Master. Yes! In 1997, John lured Isabel Luica Isabel Luica

a freshman at Purdue University to come live in Kansas. She told her parents that she'd been offered an internship and gave them an address but they found out way too late that the address was to a mailboxes etc so isabel and john appeared to have kind of a normal-ish bdsm relationship for a while but then she went

missing and when the managers of her apartment went to get it ready for new, they found it memorably clean. Yeah. That's not good. A few weeks after Isabelle disappeared, John met Suzette Troughton. John met Suzette Troughton. You're just killing these last names. They're so good. Shut up. You know what's funny?

As I was trying out a few different ways of saying it, I was like, I'll just pick the one that sounds the most confident. But now that you've said that, I have to leave it all in. So she was 27. She collected teapots and loved her two Pekingese dogs. She was also part of the online BDSM sex scene. And once again, John lured Suzette to Kansas City by offering her a job. So she was a home care nurse, I think in Michigan.

And he told her that his very wealthy dad needed constant medical care. In reality, his dad was dead. But anyway, she flies out for the interview. And he has her picked up in a limo and she's pumped she didn't get to meet john's dad but this sounded like an amazing job like she was talking to her mom about it she was like really nervous about the interview this is just heartbreaking yeah you know why what happens to her oh just good stuff she's fine don't worry so it sounded like an amazing job she'd get to travel on their yacht.

Oh, yeah. Which, just pro tip. Nobody in Kansas has a yacht. Yeah, yeah. If their home base is Kansas City, no. No. Not very likely, anyway. If anything, maybe they rent a yacht when they go to the coast.

That's what I do when I go to the coast. So she'd earn $60,000 a year. She'd get a car, an apartment. You know, sounded great. John moved her into the guest house suites in Lenexa, Kansas, and said, Hey, you're going to be taking off on this trip in two weeks. I've got some stationery that you need to sign. A few days later, Suzette's bill had been paid at the guest house suites,

and someone called animal control to let them know that two Pekingese dogs were in a kennel outside the main office of this random subdivision in Olathe. You're not going to believe this, but John lived in that subdivision. Yeah. Shocking. Poor Pekingese dogs. They lived. Are you kidding me?

What about Suzette? You are so weird about dogs. So weird about dogs. They were probably really hot. Oh my god. Okay, that is ridiculous. So far the most if you're keeping score at home

so far the most emotion Brandi has shown this whole episode is over the two dogs. What's our body count right now these people they are nobody is dead yet kristin oh okay so the dogs were super hungry they were dirty they dirty. I'm just kidding. No, I think the dogs were fine. So Suzette's mom, Carolyn, got suspicious when her daughter all of a sudden stopped calling. That wasn't like her. It seems like Suzette was pretty well connected with people. She had this friend, Lori. They both called John. And he told them, oh, Suzette turned down the job offer.

She ran off with some guy named James Turner. Oh, that's very specific. Who's James Turner? Is it a real person? Probably not. I'm sure there is a James Turner. I'm sure there's a James Turner, yes. Pretty soon. And by the way, both of them were like no no for sure no no way yeah why would she have turned down such an amazing sounding job yeah no

pretty soon they started getting letters from suzette but they were like, no, this does not sound like her at all. So Suzette contacted the Lenexa police, and unlike the Overland Park police, who apparently had this file of missing women associated with this guy and done nothing with it, Lenexa detective David Brown was like, I don't like this John Robinson guy. I'm going to figure out what happened to Suzette. Pretty soon, he forms a task force to investigate this whole issue. And one of the first things he did was go to Missouri and talk to Stephen Hames.

Apparently, one of the first things he said to Steve was, you seem to have had this guy pegged from the beginning. Meanwhile, the dogs were at the groomers and they got little... Like a handkerchief started on their necks. Meanwhile, John met another woman online and this time it was a woman named Janine. And she was also into bdsm and was interested in finding a guy who could be her partner and actually employ her at the same time

can't have everything like i'm just saying if somebody's offering you too much yeah uh when she moved to kansas he put her up in the guest house suites in Lenexa. But he was very rough with her during sex, and she didn't like it. So apparently she... No, hold on. Before you make that judgmental face. So she liked to be dominated, but she didn't want pain. Yeah, she wanted to be bossed around, but she didn't want the pain. Okay, got it.

But of course, he didn't listen to that. He took pictures pictures she wasn't into that this whole thing was bad it was the opposite of what she wanted so she regretted moving to kansas she regretted getting involved with him and she had a really bad feeling about john yeah so one day she went to the front desk of the hotel and she asked to see the registration information for the room. So she thought she was dealing with James Turner. But that's when she realized that the information for the registration for the room was linked to this guy called John Robinson. I said called because I'm British now.

john robinson i said called because i'm british now so she called the police and immediately detective david brown was on the phone and she's like crying really hard telling this story she starts to share just some of the details of it and he's like whoa whoa whoa whoa i'm gonna stop you right there. Pack your stuff. Get out of there. Get out of that hotel right now. Oh, my gosh. Yes. So I've got goosebumps now. He ended up interviewing her the next day because the main priority right then was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Stop crying. Stop telling me stuff. Just get the fuck out of there. Get away. So are we ready for some justice? Yes. So she talked to police, and they finally felt like they had enough to arrest him. Because she was able to say, you know, what happened was not consensual.

Here's what he did. Blah, blah, blah, blah. On June 2nd, 2000, nine police cars surrounded the Robinson home at 36 Monterey in the Santa Barbara Estates neighborhood in Olathe, Kansas. They arrested John for sexual assault. Yeah. They did a full search of his house. They grabbed all five of his computers. And they found a piece of stationery from 1985.

It was signed by Lisa Stacy. Then they went to a nearby storage facility where John had a locker. I know. When they opened it up. I know it's so bad. So bad. They opened it up. They found links to a ton of missing women.

They found birth certificates, social security cards, signed stationery, all kinds of stuff, mostly from Isabel and Suzette. This is not the storage facility you're thinking of, but we're getting there. Okay, so the next day, they went to the Robinsons' other property, a 16-acre piece of land about an hour south of Olathe, Kansas.

There they found two 55-gallon barrels outside a tool shed near the property's mobile home. They pried open the barrels, and inside each barrel contained a dead female body. Obviously, the police kept this a secret for as long as they could. They wanted to find as much as they could without any kind of interference, but they did call Stephen Hames. And looking back, he said, It confirmed what I had always believed, but the move from theory to reality was chilling they immediately set to work trying to identify the bodies but at the same time they

had work to do in missouri too yeah because he also had a storage locker in raymoor so they got a warrant for that storage locker detectives opened it and it was full of just all kinds of stuff and it smelled horrible yeah they took stuff out for about 40 minutes and finally they found three barrels and apparently they were like surrounded by kitty litter i guess he was trying to mask the smell but i mean you just can't and of course each of those barrels contained a dead female body later examiners determined that the women were probably hit by a hammer they didn't seem to have any defensive wounds so they must have been tied up and then you know he hit him with one or two blows eventually they determined that suzette and isabel had been in Kansas and Beverly Bonner, the librarian, and Sheila and her daughter, Debbie, had all been in Missouri.

Lisa Stacy's body was never found. Neither were the bodies of Paula Godfrey or Catherine Clampett. Now for the trials. So I'm going to be honest with you. I've been talking for a while. This is a court podcast, but I'm going to go a little faster than usual. Yeah.

Okay. Because there's more than one trial. Yeah. So since he murdered women in Kansas and Missouri, he was actually tried in both states. Yes. His 2002 trial in Kansas was the longest criminal trial in Kansas history. It lasted one and a half months.

And it was awful. The whole story that I just laid out all came out about all these women and how he lured them in and eventually murdered them. I'm not going to rehash any of that. But I do want to talk about something I found interesting about the trial. John's wife, Nancy, testified and defended him. Wow. At one point, she appeared to surprise the prosecutor by saying that John had an alibi

for when Suzette Troughton was supposed to have been killed. Wow. Nancy claimed that he was babysitting their grandchildren on the morning that Suzette was supposed to have been murdered. Uh-huh. But the prosecutor, Paul Morrison, was like, no, don't think so. He's like, judge, I'd like to redirect. Yeah. No, don't think so.

He's like, Judge, I'd like to redirect. Yeah. So he goes, Nancy, why didn't you mention this alibi during the other two times that you talked to police? Yeah. Or during the preliminary hearing? I just thought of it. Yeah. I mean, I struggle with this just because, I mean, multiple murders. You've got've got i mean maybe you're just trying to

cling to hope i don't know um but she obviously crumbled under those questions she said a bunch of other stuff on the stand she talked about how she knew that john used aliases but he always had some reason for it she also said that she had visited those storage facilities and never noticed anything unusual she said that she knew her husband had had affairs and that she had visited those storage facilities and never noticed anything unusual. She said that she knew her husband had had affairs and that she thought about leaving him twice over the course of their marriage. She cried a lot on the witness stand. She said she still loved him and that she continues to visit him in jail. I just find that so... Oh, God. I don't know.

I feel for her. I do feel for her. I do feel for her. I think he was a con man. Oh, yeah. I mean, by that point, I think they'd been married for like 30-something years. They had four children together. Yeah. That would just be so shocking.

Oh, yeah. You maybe wrap your head around that he's committed all these frauds, but maybe he's conned you into thinking that like... Yeah, he conned her just like he conned everybody else yeah oh so the kansas jury found him guilty in the deaths of suzette and isabel whose bodies were found in kansas and they also found him guilty in lisa's murder despite the fact that her body has still not been found he got life in prison for lisa's murder he got a 5 to 20 year term for interfering with the parental custody of lisa's baby tiffany he was sentenced to death for the murders of suzette and isabel because their murders took place at a time when kansas

had reinstated the death penalty yeah then in missouri he pled guilty to killing five other women, Beverly, Sheila, her daughter Debbie, whose bodies were all found in Missouri, and Paula and Catherine, whose bodies have still not been found. So here's why he didn't want a trial in Missouri. I can tell you why. Go ahead. Because Missouri's the second most active death penalty state. Yeah.

They for sure would have put him to death. Even if he gets the death penalty in kansas it doesn't matter kansas hasn't put somebody to death since like 1965 or something like that it's been a very long time yeah yeah he for sure they would have put him to death in missouri yep yeah that's exactly right yeah so his lawyers were like you're gonna die in missouri. You better make a deal. Yeah. And it seems like Missouri prosecutors weren't super thrilled about a trial either because they felt like they didn't have airtight evidence

that he actually committed the murders in Missouri. Yeah. And John never cooperated with the investigators in either state. He never told them, hey, here's where the bodies are. So in exchange for pleading guilty, Missouri agreed to take the death penalty off the table, and they sentenced him to life in prison. In the years since his death sentence, John has appealed the decision,

and in 2015, the Kansas Supreme Court weighed in. They ruled that the district court did make a few errors in that trial. But bottom line, they upheld the death sentence. Yeah. I was like, what the fuck? No, he's still on death row. They acknowledged a few things that i think are pretty minor so yeah where's he on death row is it eldorado i think eldorado yeah that sounds right then here's

another thing and i didn't find a great source on this but i'm just throwing it out there i saw somewhere that in 2005 after 41 years of marriage, Nancy finally did divorce John. I'm throwing it in just because I hope it's true. Yeah. Yeah. One last thing. Let's talk about Lisa's infant daughter, Tiffany, who John adopted to his brother and sister-in-law, Don and Helen Robinson. This is so messed up.

I mean, all of it is horrible. But this poor girl. So they had raised her as their own, named her Heather, and all of this came out when she was like 15. Holy shit. And it was horrible for her. Devastating.

Yes. I read a little bit of something where she withdrew from school. She was terrified that she'd be taken away from the only i'm sure because my understanding is that don and helen robinson are lovely people and they really were good yeah but you know heather did have a dad who yeah i mean i i read an article where he said you know he didn't want to disrupt her life he wanted a relationship with her, he didn't want to disrupt her life. He wanted a relationship with her,

but he didn't want to make this any worse than it already was for her. And then, of course, you know, Lisa, Lisa's mom was also in the picture, I think, and I believe wanted to have a relationship with her too. Anyway, so she withdrew from school and was eventually diagnosed with PTSD and bipolar disorder. And as she got older, she got more and more concerned that her uncle would try to profit off of this story. Yeah. You know, by either writing a book or some stupid screenplay. So in 2004, when she was 18, she sued John Robinson. And in 2007, she won a $5 billion judgment against him.

Ugh. That's amazing. Judge Thomas Clark said, this court does not have the authority to silence defendant John E. Robinson Sr., but this court does have the power to enter a judgment that will take away the profiteering agenda

of defendant John E. Robinson Sr. Mm-hmm. This makes me wonder for the first time, does one of his poor sons have... Must be, yeah. Oh, God. Oh, terrible. Yeah. One other thing, and I couldn't find a good source on this, but a few different places listed it. They also said that Heather sued Truman Medical Center and the social worker who was involved which i think fair

yeah um and the sources i saw said that they settled out of court for a large amount and i believe she split the amount with her biological grandmother uh-huh i believe wow again don't have a good source on that, but I hope it's true. Yeah, I do too. Because that's insane. Yeah. What happened to her. Oh my gosh.

So that is the story of John Edward Robinson. Wow. That was terrible. You know what? It's a really interesting story. It is a really interesting story. I feel terrible now. story it is a really interesting story i feel terrible now the serial killer case that i almost did today was an australian serial killer who put bodies in barrels oh my god how fucking crazy

would that have been that would have been terrible the worst episode ever oh my god yeah yeah i'm really glad you didn't do that oh my gosh plus how long have we been talking can you imagine if you'd done three days yeah yeah just wasting away over here oh my gosh so what what part of that was new to you because i was kind of like oh god why am i telling brandy about serial killers okay so i didn't know the all the fraud stuff i didn't know any of his background or any of that um i basically only knew it once the body the barrels were located yeah and see it's funny because i felt like i really knew the fraud stuff yeah because you know how i love oh yeah you love a con i think it's so fascinating yeah man that was nuts yes yes that was not your thing at all no i'm sorry

that you had to do that kristin you know it's my mom's fault because she texted me it had to be done if sherry pitts tells you to do something you really don't have a choice i remember getting into that fight with her when I was little. I remember she said to me, could you please set the table for dinner? Yeah. And I said no, because she had phrased it like a question. Yeah. And then the politeness went away.

I got the lecture of I'm being polite but that doesn't mean you get to say no. Which is very surprising to me. I may have phrased it as a question. Yeah, but you It was not a question.

Make no mistake, nine-year-old. By the way, I noticed that your dad liked our Facebook page today. I know, finally. I guess he was holding out.

He was just making sure. Wouldn't that be hilarious if he was like, I'm going to listen to quite a few episodes. Well, yeah, he just told me yesterday that he was listening to, I think, episode 18. So he gave us an 18-episode shot before he was going to like us. I respect that. I feel like we really earned his respect there no it has been awesome though to like you know so many people have rated us yeah we really do we really do yeah we really really appreciate we've had a bunch of people

reaching out to us that they've you know been listening and been enjoying the show and it really means so much to us because like we legitimately have a great time yes making these like it's so fun but it makes it so much better that people enjoy listening into it as well to give you an idea of how much we enjoy it i feel like we should share the gifts that we so like when we hit 50 reviews on itunes i sent you the gif of jonah hill and what what movie is that is it it's not moneyball it's uh it's get him to the greek right no it's um is that get him to the greek where he no i feel like no it's the one with leonardo dicaprio that's moneyball no that's brad pitt you're thinking brad pitt um no that oh come on oh this is killing me it's the one

wolf of wall street that's not him in Wolf of Wall Street. Yes, it is. He has fucking crazy ass teeth in Wolf of Wall Street. It's Get Him to the Greek. I promise you. Do you want to come at me on movies, Kristen? On this one, yes. No, I swear to you, it's not.

If we're talking about this one. Yeah, we're talking about that one. It's Get Him to the Greek. I just want to remind you that we're on a podcast right now. No one can see the hand gesture. You guys have all seen the GIF. It's Jonah Hill and he's like excited. Like his hands are shaken by his face.

He's got this big smile on his face. It's get him. I mean, I'll fucking look it up right now. If I'm wrong, I'm going to be so pissed. Jonah Hill, get him to the Greek gif. Oh! Damn it! Oh, weird!

What you didn't see was that Brandy actually typed in Jonah Hill, Wolf of Wall Street. Okay, anyway, so i'm wrong and then brandy sent back the gif of melissa mccarthy and bridesmaids doing her little dance so if if gifts mean anything to you yeah we're very excited and we're having a lot of fun yeah it's It's a blast. And thank you for listening. And if you really do enjoy it, like, and you've already given us a rating and review, just tell your friends about us. Like, seriously, that's the, like, the best way for, you know, us to gain listeners. It's just word of mouth.

So, you know, rent a plane, do some skywriting, send up some flares that spell out I feel like that'd be really hard to do we do it with fireworks they say like USA or whatever right so LGTC that couldn't be that hard

yeah you're right yeah and people would be LGTC hmm that must be a podcast I'll go to my phone nothing could go wrong in this place nothing at podcast. I'll go to my phone.

Nothing could go wrong in this place. Nothing at all. Look, all we're asking is that you take out a billboard. Billboard, a full page ad in a men's magazine. Or the next time someone has pliers on your nipples, just shout out, let's go to court. That's bound to get the word out. No, but really, find us on social media.

We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We have a website, lgtcpodcast.com. You can send us a love note over at our email account, which is lgtcpodcast.gmail.com. And we're always in chat rooms

and our usernames are Slave Master 1 and 2. I don't know why I have to be 2. And then join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process.

I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from David McClintock's Vanity Fair article, serial killer J.R. Robinson's sinister alter ego, Vanity Fair article, Serial Killer J.R. Robinson's Sinister Alter Ego, as well as sources like CNN, the Kansas City Star, the Associated Press, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from iowacoldcases.org, the Tama News Herald, the Toledo Chronicle, the Des Moines Register, and the Gazette.

It's pronounced Des Moines. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.