Let's Go To Court! - 290: The Death of a Salesman

Episode Date: March 20, 2024

Bill Mowbray was *the* Cadillac dealer in Brownsville, Texas. His dealership spanned five acres. His financial success seemed undeniable. He had a massive home. He had two condos on the beach. He owned exotic birds. But beneath the surface, Bill struggled. He had a spending problem. He had multiple affairs. He struggled with suicidal ideation. So, when he died from an apparent self-inflicted gunshot, investigators didn’t immediately question his wife, Freda Susie Mowbray. And now for a note about our process. For this episode, Brandi copy and pasted from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Death of a Salesman” episode Accident Suicide or Murder “Where the Blood Drops” episode Forensic Files “Susie Mowbray: Stalled Heart” by Rebecca Reisner, forensicfilesnow.com “‘I Didn’t Do It!’ Texas Wife Yells In Court — Was Her Husband's Death Murder Or Suicide?” By Joe Dziemianowicz, oxygen.com “Son’s Quest May Set His Mother Free 8 Years After Her Murder Conviction” by Pauline Arrillaga, Los Angeles Times “After 9 Years in Prison, Woman Is Acquitted in Husband's Death” by The Associated Press, The New York Times “Retrial Set for Woman Jailed in Mate’s Death” by Pauline Arrillaga, Los Angeles Times “After 9 years' in jail, woman cleared in death” Tampa Bay Times “Mowbray v. Cameron County Texas” findlaw.com YOU’RE STILL READING? My, my, my, you skeezy scunch! You must be hungry for more! We’d offer you some sausage brunch, but that gets messy. So how about you head over to our Patreon instead? (patreon.com/lgtcpodcast). At the $5 level, you’ll get 55+ full length bonus episodes, plus access to our 90’s style chat room!  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Oh no, I just went through puberty. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Pond. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll be talking about the death of a salesman.

Hey everyone, I know you can't tell. It's not like you can tell at all that we're both sick. We're both super sick. Yeah, you know that thing that Brandi was talking about at all that we're both sick. We're both super sick. Yeah. You know that thing that Brandy was talking about last week that London had been sick with? Yeah. I think we both got it. London never got sick like this. She just had a fever for five days.

Maybe she just wore it well. Did you think about that? No. She never coughed. She never did anything. Think about it. No. Oh my gosh. She had a little cough, I guess, but not like this. This sucks. It does suck. It does suck. No. Oh, my gosh. You should have a little cough, I guess, but not like this. This sucks. It does suck. It does suck. Yeah, we recorded the bonus episode Monday.

We sounded really bad on Monday. We sound worse today. We sound worse today, actually. Yep. Boy, by the time the live show rolls around, we'll be— We'll be sounding great. Yeah. We'll be able to belt out the musical number, no problem.

Don't get people excited for something that is not happening. We will be speaking and standing still. That's right. The whole time. That's right. Also, why has cough syrup technology not caught up with the times? David and I talk about this all the time because I'm taking fucking Robitussin like it's my job. And it tastes so fucking terrible.

Yes. Well, I told you this the other night when we recorded the bonus episode. One night I tried to just do like NyQuil gel caps. I mean, obviously not sponsored by NyQuil. That was just for shits. That didn't do anything. Although I'm sure it eventually did. But, you know, I had the cough. thing although i'm sure it eventually did but you know i had the cough yeah so i had to like accept my fate that i had to have the cough syrup that tastes like cherry assholes like they put a cherry on an asshole and i had to eat it yeah welcome to our podcast it's very graphic speaking of very graphic we've got a really exciting announcement. Everyone. Brandi, you're also supposed to have some kind of trumpet or at least a ukulele.

Okay. Oh, you know what? I was going to talk shit. That's not bad. Thank you. That's not bad. Everyone. Hear ye, hear ye.

We have gotten a lot of questions about what's going to happen to our Patreon after the podcast ends at the end of March, and we finally have an answer. Guess what, everybody? In exchange for one gently used hot tub, I am keeping the Patreon. Randy, you're going to want to give that thing a scrub. No, so if you're wondering where all our bonus episodes are going, where all our bonus videos are going, where the Discord's going, any of that stuff, it's staying on the Patreon. So you don't have to worry about hurrying and downloading them. They will be there for forever and ever.

Amen. And if you want to see a video of the live show, it'll be on our Patreon. Yeah. At some point. On your Patreon. It will be on your Patreon.

I was getting to that. You know, they got the gist with the gently used hot tub. So yeah, on April 1st, it'll become my Patreon under a name to be determined. But not a lot will change in that all the old let's go to court stuff will be there. But it'll just support what I'm doing next, which is a history slash comedy podcast with Norm.

Awesome. Also, so, yeah, if you sign up, you'll get early access to that. And that'll be a fun thing for you. And as a punishment for signing up, you'll also get the first episode of Ask an Old White Guy with my dad. I also might be doing something with my sister. There's just a lot. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. There's a lot of stuff going on.

So yeah, sign up, won't you? Should we do an ad? That felt like an ad. Yeah. In spirit and in... Oh no, I'm coughing again. It was an impacted ad. Let's also do another ad.

Doodaloo. Oh my. We've never done a better ad. Doodaloo. I know she got all cute with the title here. Yeah. You think you're in a high school play? No.

You're not. You're a grown woman. I do think it's a clever title, but I do have to admit that it comes directly from the accident, suicide, or murder episode that I watched about this case. All right. Wow. You're really going for the things you love. I told you I was going to do a brandy case at the end. So, of course, it comes from Accident, Suicide, or Murder, my favorite oxygen program.

Excuse me. All right. Very good. So shout out to that. Shout out to an episode of Forensic Files. I will warn the people if you go to try and find this Forensic Files episode, which is readily available. It is the most graphic episode I've ever seen. In what way?

They show actual pictures of the crime scene and the victim's body. Yeah, I don't like that. That are not blurred in any way. That's really surprising. I was shocked. David and I watched this Forensic Files episode, and he goes, whoa. And I was like, I have never seen a Forensic Files episode this graphic before. Okay.

I was like, I have never seen a Forensic Files episode this graphic before. And also shout out to Rebecca Reisner at Forensic Files Now for an excellent write up on this case that actually pulled from both the Forensic Files episode and the accident, suicide or murder episode. So. All right. Very wonderful. Yeah. Very helpful. Bill Mowbray was a Cadillac man. Bill was born J. William Mowbray Jr. in April of 1944 in Washington, D.C., and Bill followed in the footsteps of his father and grandfather before him and worked in the auto business. By age 25, Bill was the youngest Cadillac dealer in the world

after opening his dealership in Brownsville, Texas, according to the Brownsville Herald. You ever been to Brownsville, Texas? I don't think so. I have been. Okay. Went for my 15th birthday. Really? Yeah, it was our family vacation that year.

My parents always had a timeshare, and so each year we took like a little trip to a condo somewhere. And this year, that year, the year I turned 15, we went to Brownsville. It's right on the Mexican border. And so we went over to Mexico for the day, actually on my 15th birthday and went shopping and stuff like that. It was very exciting. What'd you buy? I bought Oakley sunglasses, which were for sure not Oakley's. Okay. And a cowboy hat. I'm surprised. Okay. Well, all right. What?

I'm surprised you didn't get something a little more souvenir-y knowing you. Yeah, I'm sure that I did as well. All right. Those are the two things that really, those were my purchases that I was really proud of. Okay. Well, congratulations on those purchases. Yeah. Is that the cowboy hat you're wearing today?

That's, no. I didn't have a cowboy hat on today. Yeah. Is that the cowboy hat you're wearing today? That's, no. No, Pam. I didn't have a cowboy hat on today. Okay. No, I do remember, though, we went to dinner for my birthday that night

and I wore my newly purchased purchased my newly purchased cowboy hat and the waiter at the restaurant said, oh, someone went

to Mexico today and I thought Called your ass out. I know. I thought I had looked so cool. And then my sister had said I looked like one of the Dixie Chicks, which made me really excited. And then the waiter was like, clearly someone shopped in Mexico today. Yeah.

And I was like. Tourist. Tourist. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah. Ouch. Very, very rude.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, in 1974, Bill said, let me upgrade you and debuted a new five-year, no, not a five-year, a five-acre dealership. Okay. A new five-acre dealership in Brownsville. That's a big-ass dealership. And it got some very good publicity in Brownsville. It's a big-ass dealership.

And it got some very good publicity in Brownsville. The Herald ran a whole page story about the grand opening, about the new and improved Bill Mowbray Motors. It was very exciting. Well, it wasn't improved. It's brand new, right? Well, no, he already had a dealership. He opened a new, bigger one. His dad did, right? No.

Oh, okay. No. He was the—Kristen, are you following the story? First of all, I'm very sick because of a disease that you brought to me. It's like the whole world is sick right now. And I blame you. You're responsible. Hold on.

So, okay. He became the youngest Cadillac dealer at age 25. Yeah, but because of his dad, right? No, it is his dealership. Well, but. All I know is that his dad was in the auto business as well. This is his own dealership. Yeah, I get it that it's his own, but okay.

Why are. I don't know. I'm assuming his dad also had a dealership and got. There's no mention of his dad having a dealership. Okay. All right. Very good. Very good. Continue. dad also had a dealership and got there's no mention of his dad having a dealership okay all right very good very good continue the paper ran this big spread about the new dealership and it

noted that it had a very fine selection of pre-owned autos and that it's dust proof booths and drying chambers are your assurance of a perfect auto finish oh yeah are. Were people getting their cars painted? Evidently. Anyway, at the time, his big dealership had 45 employees. Yeah, that's a huge. It's a big dealership. Okay. Yeah, he was doing really good. Kerry Zayas, who was a news anchor in the area at the time, told Accident, Suicide, or Murder,

if you drove a Cadillac in Brownsville at this time, you for sure got your Cadillac at Bill Mowbray Motors. Well, no shit. Yeah. So life was going pretty well for Bill as far as his business was concerned anyway. Along the way, he got married and had a daughter named Kristen with an eye. But he and his wife later divorced. I mean, she's a child at this point, but... It sounds like she'll grow into it. Okay. Then sometime around 1978, Belle met Frida Sue Burnett,

who went by Susie. Okay. I'd probably go by Susie if my name was Frida. Oh, I like the name Frida. You like the name Frida? Yeah. I think it just seems like an old woman name. Wow. I think if just seems like an old woman name. Wow.

I think if I was a young woman, I'd want to be named Susie. You don't like Susie? I hate it. You do? I hate it. Okay. We've never been more opposite on names. You were like, yeah, go by Frida.

Well, yeah, Frida Kahlo. Well, sure, yeah. Susie Q? Who are you emulating there? Think on it. Anyway, she went by Suzy. Okay. Suzy was born in 1948, and she grew up in Louisiana.

An Associated Press story referred to her as a debutante who was a cheerleader and homecoming queen in Shreveport. Oh, shit. All right. Suzy was beautiful, bubbly, blonde, and the two hit it off right away. Yeah, you didn't have to tell us any of that. You knew all of that stuff about Susie?

We knew it at debutante. Okay. By the time Susie met Bill, she had also been married and divorced. She had two children. A daughter named... Brandy? No. Oh, that would have been wild it would have been wild cricket i love it that's right i love it so much i asked david last night why we didn't name london cricket

it's not too late do a little switch no london's such a london like her name fits her so perfectly yeah until you call her cricket and then boom anyway she also had a son named wade i'm less excited about that name yeah you can't do that name. Yeah, you can't do that. What do you mean? You can't do it. You can't do it. You can't give one kid a really cool name and one. Yeah.

It's the Kristen and Kyla situation. Oh, yeah. Kyla is such a cool name. And then there's Kristen. Yeah, I love the name Cricket. I think it's really cool. Yeah. Susie and Bill married shortly after they met.

I don't know exactly how long, but the show, The Accident, Suicide, or Murder case said they married pretty quickly. And for the next few years, they lived the good life as the money rolled in at Mowbray Motors. Bill and Susie starred in the TV commercials for the dealership. Oh, I love it. Of course they did. Yeah. There's nothing better Of course they did. Yeah. There's nothing better than a local commercial. The Forensic Files episode plays some of the commercials.

Yeah. There's one where Bill's just like, you know, kind of standing in the dealership talking to him. There's another one where Susie's kind of like laying across the hood of a car. Yep. Yeah. It's wonderful. You know, my grandma used to do commercials for car dealership here locally. I mean, I know you know this.

But have I talked about this on the podcast before? I don't know that you have, but it made you a celebrity by proxy. Yes. It was very cool. Please tell the people. I don't care if they've heard about it. So there was a dealership here in Kansas City, Sunflower Dodge in Olathe. In Olathe.

And they had a spokesperson called Hap Hazard. And he wore this like yellow plaid suit in all of their commercials. My grandma actually worked at the dealership. And she got hired to play his wife in some of the commercials. She played Miss Hap. And she wore a yellow, a matching like skirt suit yeah you Kristen okay I'll let that slide and I remember I was like in the fifth grade when this happened I remember telling everybody at school my grandma is in commercials and people

like oh yeah okay sure thing yeah I was like yeah no that's my grandma in those commercials and people thought I was making it up and then one I don't commercials. And people thought I was making it up. And then one day. I don't remember people. Oh, people thought I was making it up for sure. Okay. Well, you had lied about barrel racing. Well, yeah, that was in the third grade. Nobody knew I had lied about that at that point, though, I don't think. Anyway. So then one day in the fifth grade, after shooting a commercial, my grandma came to school in her costume. shooting a commercial, my grandma came to school in her costume. I remember that like it was fucking yesterday. It was a big deal. It was.

It was a very big deal. Yeah. It was very exciting. Yes. Okay. I remember. I remember this very clearly. When I told everybody that my grandma was in these commercials, there was a print ad

in the newspaper that she was featured in. And so I brought that in for show and tell. Oh, OK. I was like, this is my grandma. And people were like, oh, OK. Who was the biggest dick about it? Well, bleep their name. Really?

Yep. Everyone, this is shocking because it was not normally a douche bag. No, he really wasn't. But he saved it for you in that moment. He did not believe that that was really my grandma. And boy, was his face red when she walked through the door. When she showed up in the classroom that day. Okay, very good.

Do you want to know an embarrassing part of that story that I've never said out loud? Oh, my God. Did you shart the second she walked in the room? No. What? I was in the bathroom when she came in. Oh. I was pooping at school, which is like the worst thing ever to have to do.

Uh-huh. And Mrs. Francis had to come into the bathroom and get me because my grandma appeared in our classroom. Mrs. Francis couldn't just wait for you to finish pooping? No, she came into the bathroom and got me. Oh. Okay. I was about to tell you. well, that's not embarrassing, so you finished pooping and you came into the classroom.

No. I'm really... It was interrupted mid-poop. Oh, that's so good. Why on earth did she come and get you? I don't know! As if you were gonna, like, take your time from it. Right! And I was so embarrassed that the teacher came in the bathroom while I was pooping.

Well, yeah. Yeah. I had to kind of pinch that off. Yeah, sure did. And get going. Yeah. Yeah. That was very brave of you to share that, Brandy.

We all appreciate it. We're all better for it. Anyway, back to this story so the mowbrays were doing great the dealership was doing amazing they had money rolling in and so they did all kinds of fancy shit they took trips overseas to exotic locations where'd they go i don't know oh on the accident suicide murder episode, they show Bill on a camel when they mention this part. Okay. So. Kansas City Zoo.

I don't think so. They bought two beach condos. Two? Again, I don't know where. Wow. And they. Can you imagine being so rich? You've got two beach condos?

I know. And they built. you imagine being so rich? You've got two beach condos. I know. And they build, built, built what everybody described as a monstrosity of a house. Oh. In Los Fresnos, Texas. Oh, so like it had to be just hideous and massive. Okay. So they show lots of footage of the outside of this house on the accident, suicide, or murder case. And it is an interesting house.

But there's a lot of trees, a lot of foliage. Well, I love that. Really blocking the house. You can't really see it. I love that even more. It does have a circle drive. Okay. Which I am.

And an interesting circle drive. It's really more of a loop drive. It's a single driveway that then opens up into a big loop. That's not as cool. I agree it's not as cool. I'm sorry to tell you. I agree it's not as cool. That's more of a lollipop drive.

It is a lollipop drive. That's exactly what it is. And it's better than what I have, obviously. But still, it's no circle drive. It's no circle drive. Okay. It had a lot of palm trees out front. All right.

And they mentioned specifically on the episode that they had lots of exotic birds on the property. So they brought in? I don't know. Like, that's the only mention of it ever. Okay. So you're saying, you keep saying interesting, which to me is like a euphemism for like ugly with the architecture. Can you describe? No, you never get to see the actual house.

I looked all over the Internet trying to find the address of this house so that I could see it. All you can tell is that the house is huge. It has a big ass lollipop driveway. Okay. And a bunch of palm trees. Did you even think to ask Jeeves? Ma'am. The things I did to try and find the address

of this fucking house. What did you do? I damn near got on the dark web. I was about to ask you. I got real close to the dark web. All right,

you're getting in the gray zone. You're like, uh-oh. Okay. Do we know the square footage? I don't.

All right. But it was described as a monstrosity. Yeah, I heard that part. I wanted to know more. I don't. No. All right. No. I heard that part. I wanted to know more. I don't know.

All right. I know nothing else other than that. Okay. So Bill loved, you know, loved to travel. He loved to hunt. They said he regularly went to Mexico to go hunting. Unfortunately, Bill also enjoyed having affairs. Oh.

He was apparently having a lot of extramarital sex. Okay. And Susie found out about it. And at that point when she found out, she actually moved to Austin for a while and lived with her children. Oh, so she took the kids with her to Austin. OK, yeah. Yeah.

But at some point she returned to Brownsville or Los whatever, Fresnos, which is near Brownsville apparently, and moved back in with Bill. And things were OK for a while after that, but this is when the problems really started to appear in the Mowbray home. Seems like Bill had a bit of a spending problem. He liked to buy stuff and his earnings were decreasing while his spending was not. And he got himself into some financial troubles. It's a pretty big debt. According to the Forensic Files Now entry, he got into something that seems very similar to a plot line in Fargo, where he took out basically two loans on the same inventory at the dealership. Oh. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Which is not good. Would it have killed him to just not buy flamingos for his property or whatever the hell he was doing? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So he gets two loans.

Okay. Yeah. According to Bill's business manager, Sergio Hernandez, by 1987 the dealership was operating at a loss of more than $100,000. Ooh. Yeah. Bill himself at that point was reportedly about $350,000 in debt, and he often withdrew money from the dealership to cover his personal expenses. Okay.

But to his credit, all of the employees said he always made payroll. That was actually going to be my next question. Because you said he had like 45 employees. That's a lot of employees. There's a lot of employees. Okay. Yeah. So the Mowbrays are getting into pretty tough financial situation. And around that same time, situation. And around that same time, Susie discovered that Bill was looking to make some changes in his life insurance policies. So he had a couple of policies totaling about $1.8 million, which in this instance, we're talking about a businessman. It doesn't seem like an alarming

amount of life insurance to me. But previously, Susie had been listed as the beneficiary on that. And she somehow learned that he was actually about to remove her as beneficiary and put his daughter in place instead. It seems like she actually made a call to the insurance agent to check on the policies. That's how she learned this. Okay. Which is interesting in itself. I was going to say, what are the rules on that?

If you're the spouse, do you get to know that kind of stuff? I don't know. All right. Speculation here is that if Bill was removing her from the insurance policies, maybe he was making a move toward divorce. Well, yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah.

So who knows? Bill's insurance agent actually later would say that Bill was in the process of changing the policies to have the Small Business Administration and his dealership at the beneficiaries. But it's unclear if we're talking about the same policies or if those were additional policies that he had picked up. OK. Unclear. policies that he had picked up.

Okay. Unclear. Either way, Susie became aware that she was about to be removed from a large life insurance policy or two. But by September, I don't know, it seemed like things were kind of okay between Bill and Susie. Enough so that on September 15th, 1987, Susie and Bill called Susie's son, Wade, together to wish him a happy birthday. Like they were all on the phone together, you know, whatever.

And it was his 16th birthday. And according to Wade, he and Bill chatted pleasantly. They talked at length and everything seemed good on that phone call. But the following night, something would happen. So the next night, Susie and Bill went to bed. They watched Johnny Carson. Bill was suffering from some kind of back pain. I guess it was something that he dealt with regularly.

And as such, he had built himself up like a, I don't know, a fortress in the bed, we'll say. Okay. There's a bunch of pillows and blankets all piled up, almost making like a wall between Susie and Bill and then going up against the headboard. Okay. So that he was like surrounded by pillows and blankets, almost like propping him up. Yeah. So on this particular night, they watched Johnny Carson together. And then Bill dozed off.

Susie said she watched David Letterman and then got up to turn the TV off. She got back in bed and fell asleep. She said somewhere around 2.15, she woke up because she heard a noise. She kind of rolled over to see Bill and she saw Bill's right arm in the air, his elbow bent, and he had his Ruger 357 Magnum gun pressed to the side of his head. And then before she could react or even realize what she had seen, Bill fired the gun. Susie jumped out of bed, ran around to his side, saw the gun laying there. She moved it away from his body, and then she ran downstairs to call for help. She called Bill's assistant first, a man named Luke Fruia,

somebody who was very close to Bill. And Luke was like, why are you calling me? So she called. She's like, Bill just shot himself. And he's like, OK, don't call me. Call 911. Right. What are you doing?

And so she did. She called 911. And a short time later. Was this in the days before 911? No. 911 exists. It's 1988. Oh, OK. OK. 87. It's 1988. Oh, okay, okay.

87. It's 1987. Okay. Yeah. I just didn't know if it was one of those times before they had that quick, memorable number and made me panic. No, 911 was around and had been around for a significant amount of time. All right, you don't have to give me that look. No, I just mean like it's weird that she didn't call 911. That's what I mean. Okay, all right. I think it's weird

that she called his assistant. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. So police arrive on the scene, you know, run up to check on Bill. Actually, when they arrived, Bill was still breathing. Oh, wow. EMTs went to work on him, but they were not able to save him. Yeah.

He passed away. By the time a homicide detective showed up at the house, which is just standard procedure at this point, Susie was greeting people at the door who were arriving with a cocktail in one hand and a cigarette in the other, wearing her white nightgown. Okay. Later, Susie would say she was drinking water in her glass but everybody who arrived to that

scene that night said she had a cocktail all right and they noted that she did not seem to be emotional she wasn't crying so amt's initially they tried to work on bill they were unsuccessful in reviving him and so then they went to work on processing this unattended death, essentially. Typically, these things should be treated as a homicide until they can determine that they are not. Right. But in this scene, this scene is graphic. As I mentioned, the Forensic Files episode, there's blood everywhere. Lots of overspray.

This is a very large gun that he used. Okay. Just very, very bloody scene. Like it sprayed the ceiling. He used or she used? Well, that's the question here, Kristen. Okay. So Susie is talking to the investigators

who have arrived on scene and she's telling them that, you know, what she saw that night and that, you know, it is shocking, but not really surprising because she told them that Bill threatened suicide all the time, like at least once a week. And he'd previously attempted suicide about a year earlier. Oh, wow. And it did seem like there were a lot of reasons that he might be suicidal or having suicidal thought. In addition to all the financial stuff that I already told you about, he was also being investigated by the IRS for potential tax fraud. Oh, shit.

Yeah. Okay. Can other people back up this idea that he threatened suicide? Yes. Oh, shit. Yeah. Okay. Can other people back up this idea that he threatened suicide? Yes. Oh, okay. Yes. So people at work were familiar with this. People at the dealership were. Oh, wow. And actually, Susie's lawyer talked about this on the Forensic Files episode, that just a short time before Bill's death, he had gone to a bank and asked for a loan and he had been denied. And he put his head down on the banker's desk and said, if I don't get $200,000 today, I'm going to kill myself. Oh, my gosh.

Yeah. That does come from Susie's lawyer, but I assume that has some basis from somewhere. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. There were several people who could talk about this and he did have a verifiable suicide attempt a year earlier. OK. Yeah. But the timing of the suicide did seem odd, especially if Bill really was planning to change the beneficiary and his insurance policies. Yeah. Why would he do that before? Like, why wouldn't he make sure that was changed before he died by suicide? Well,

but suicide isn't always logical. It's not logical. Exactly. No, I totally agree. I shouldn't say that. It's not logical. I said it's not always. Yeah, no, it's not logical. No. And they go into this a bit on the forensic files episode, like some of the policies were new. And in Texas, there's a hard two year suicide clause in life insurance. OK. They will not pay out for suicide if it takes place within two years of the policy being opened. OK. But on this night, with the information that Susie gave and the way the scene looked and everything, it seems that police were pretty confident that this was the scene of a suicide. And when they gathered information about the Mowbrays, it seemed to kind of back that up.

Everybody knew there was financial troubles. Everybody knew there were marital issues. One of Susie's friends said Bill loved spending money. There was no question about it. and he was running out of it. With all of that information and Susie's version of events that night, for whatever reason, the scene was not secured, and Susie was allowed to stay in the house. At some point, they removed Bill's body from the scene, and then everybody left for the night. Okay. The next day, about 10 hours later, investigators came back with Bill's brother. They were there to collect more evidence.

Bill's brother wanted to see the house and, you know, whatever and just be present, I think. They walked in the door and the bedroom, the primary bedroom was upstairs. So as they walk up the stairs, these investigators and Bill's brother, they hear music playing. And then they hear laughing. They're like, what is this? So they get up the stairs and they walk into the primary bedroom. And there's Susie and her friends painting the room. Oh, wow. Susie said they were having a painting party. Everything in the room had been removed.

All of the furniture, the carpet, everything. And they were painting the walls and the ceilings. Ceiling. There's only one ceiling. You said it was fancy. I thought it was going to be some. Ten hours after Bill's death. Bill's brother, his name's Jim, and he was like, what is happening in here?

He pulls Susie aside and he's like, what are you doing? And she's like, we're having a painting party. And he's like, this is so inappropriate. My brother just died. And she's told him that her kids were coming to the house and that she didn't want her kids to see a bloody scene. That's why she had decided to do this. Okay. Honestly, I don't think that's that weird.

You don't? I wouldn't call it a painting party at all. But I think especially for this time period. So, okay, I have a friend who had, let's see, oh gosh, she had a baby and the baby died, you know, very quickly after she gave birth. And her extended family, in an attempt to be helpful, went over to their house and basically undid the new baby's room. Yes. Like immediately. So she came home and there was and of course, that that was terrible for her. Yeah. But I do wonder how many people, again, especially in this time period, because it would be kind of the same time period now that I'm thinking about it. How people would think well you know the kids are coming and you know this is her bedroom and

you know let's fix this but also yeah if she murdered him then yeah let's get rid of all the evidence yeah yeah I think the timing of it's weird I understand what you're saying I think the timing of it's weird. I understand what you're saying. I think it's super weird. So in the room had not, I mean, in Susie's defense, they hadn't marked it off with police tape. They had told her she could stay in the house. Yeah. But Susie's actions did raise some eyebrows with the investigators. And they were like, maybe we need to look into this a little more. Maybe this isn't as cut and dry as it initially seemed. So investigators are like, maybe this isn't quite what this seems.

Maybe we need to dig a little deeper into this. They had wanted to collect a bunch more evidence from the bed and stuff that night, the way the pillows were set up and everything. And they wanted to look into that more. But that was all gone now. I mean, it was still there, but it wasn't how they had left it. It had been moved out of the room and everything.

All the blood had been painted over. So there could be no analysis done on any of that. So they then started to dig into the Mowbray's marriage, and that's when they learned about the affairs that Bill had had, that Susie had known about them, that she'd left and come back. They talked to some people who knew the Mowbray's marriage. And that's when they learned about the affairs that Bill had had, that Susie had known about them, that she'd left and come back. They talked to some people who knew the Mowbray's and they actually learned during those interviews that Bill had actually begged Susie to come back. And that's why she had come back. But another person who was close to the couple said that wasn't the case at all, that Susie was coming back kind of as a formality

and that they were going to work out the terms of a divorce and divide up assets. How long had she been back? That I don't know. OK. I don't know. And then they learned that Susie had learned just before this happened about the life insurance policies and the change of beneficiary. And they're like, that's questionable. Sherry. And they're like, that's questionable. They also had some questions about Susie's version of events. So she said she woke up because she heard a noise. She looked over. Bill's arm was

in the air. It would be his right arm was up, bent at the elbow. He was laying on his side. And he had been shot through that side of his head. It had traveled all the way through, and it had exited through his left hand. Oh. Because his left hand was under the pillow, and his head was against it. Huh. But when paramedics got there, that right arm was down by his side and under the blanket. Oh. Yeah. It was something they had noted at the blanket. Oh. Yeah.

It was something they had noted at the time. Well, they just fucked this up. They really did. They really did. Yeah. So now, upon second, you know, kind of glance of that information,

they're like, oh, is this not suicide? Well, probably not if his arm's under the blanket. I do get that. I will say he was still breathing when they got there. So is it possible? I don't know. That just seems doubtful to me. Susie did also admit that she had pulled the gun away from him.

So is it possible that when she did that, she moved the i mean who knows who knows who knows but all of these little things that they kind of find and suzy's story not really matching with what they found at the scene they start to think that maybe suzy had been the one to fire that gun that night and that her motive was money. She needed to kill him before he removed her as the beneficiary of the life insurance policies. We get it. Yeah. On November 3rd, 1987, seven weeks after Bill's death, a Texas blood spatter expert named Dusty Hescue. Dusty. We hated Dusty. That's right. Did an analysis of Susie's nightgown. So Susie had a white nightgown on that night. It was what she wore to bed. It was what she was still wearing when the paramedics got there, when the police got there. They did take it as evidence. And this

blood spatter expert said that he checked it over with luminol and with luminol he was able to see minuscule specks of blood that were not visible to the naked eye. He believed that this was overspray that was cast onto her nightgown when she fired the gun. Couldn't it just have been overspray from her being right next to him when he was fired? Nope, nope, because there was a wall of pillows and blankets between them. I mean, how high was this wall? This blood spatter expert concluded that to get these minuscule specks of blood on her nightgown that she would have had to straddle Bill while shooting him. All right. They also looked at the blood evidence that

was on Bill's body. So the way Susie told it, you know, it was a contact shot. There should have been like cast off blood and brain matter on his hand and arm that he used to shoot with. Yeah. And there was not. Okay. So this starts kind of getting out there that this wasn't maybe everything that it seemed initially. Maybe this wasn't maybe everything that it seemed initially. Maybe this wasn't the suicide as it was initially believed to be. And on January 4th, 1988, the Shreveport Journal ran a story about Susie, headlined, Ex-Shreveporter in Real Life Soap Opera. The article noted that Bill's first wife and his daughter were suspicious of Susie. They said that they were contesting his will and that Susie was fighting them and that Susie was quickly selling off Bill's things left and right during this time period.

She was liquidating his assets. during this time period. She was liquidating his assets. In early 1988, Susie was arrested and charged with her husband's murder. Wow. Yeah. Susie's children's children's.

Her children were in shock. But Bill's family believed that this was the right move. They believed that Susie was responsible for Bill's death. And now it's time for an ad. Doodaloo. Doodaloo.

And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Okay, so Susie was arrested and charged with Bill Mowbray's murder. Her husband, obviously. I don't know why I just said that. And her trial kicked off in May of 1988. Her son, Wade, was 16 at the time. And he canceled his plans for summer camp so that he could go to the trial.

Yeah. Yeah. These proceedings were a fucking spectacle. The Mowbray's king-size bed was brought into the courtroom, had a mirrored headboard that I believe was still stained with blood. The blood-stained mattress was brought in. The blood-stained sheets were put on it. And a mannequin made to look like Bill was laid in the bed, and then a bald mannequin was situated kind of standing next to the bed wearing Susie's white nightgown that she had worn that night.

Is it significant that it was bald? No, it was just alarming. Oh, okay. I'll tell you. They show footage of this in the accident, suicide, or murder episode. And I'll admit, I was not paying the closest attention at this particular moment. And I just caught a glimpse of it out of the corner of my eye. And David was watching it with me.

And I was like, is there an alien in the courtroom? I was like, what was that? And he goes, I don't know. That was really shocking. And then like they showed it again and I was like, oh,

it's a mannequin. Okay. Yeah. So it was a little alarming, but they brought all this in so the prosecution could do a reenactment of sorts of what they believed happened

that night and have like- Man, Texas loves to reenact shit in the courtroom, don't they? Oh my gosh, so much. So much. So they really focused on that.

They focused on the blood spatter, the invisible blood spatter on the nightgown. They had that blood spatter expert testify about it and how it was not visible to the naked eye, but under luminol, you could see the spatter. And then he talked about how that spatter had to have been created. The defense focused on basically talking about Bill's history, his previous suicide attempts, his money problems, his previous suicide threats. Did they have their own blood spatter expert? They did not. Only the one blood spatter expert testified.

That seems like a mistake. I would agree. I would agree. But there's a reason why, and we'll get to it. Okay. This trial only lasted about three weeks. And on June 9th, 1988, the jury found Susie guilty after deliberating for only two hours. Wow. They later said that the decision was unanimous after the first vote. Gosh. Yeah. Susie was sentenced to life in prison without

the possibility of parole. I don't think this is that open and shut. I agree. I don't either. I'm also really suspicious of blood spatter stuff. Oh, yeah. And you should be. Okay.

You should be. Okay. For the next eight years, Susie was behind bars. Her family thought that this was a miscarriage of justice. Yeah. Bill's family thought this was the right thing. They believed that this was a miscarriage of justice. Bill's family thought this was the right thing. They believed that this was the proper outcome. Her son, Wade, was so torn up about this that he actually enrolled in law school, hoping to learn enough that he could prove her innocence. Wow. He was really struck by the blood spatter evidence. Yeah. It didn't make sense to

him. He like to the naked eye, the nightgown was pristine. There was nothing on it. It was a white nightgown. Right. Not a drop of blood. Yeah. If anything was going to show blood, you would think it would be this. So he starts looking into this case. I mean, Susie's working with people who are helping her with a potential appeal, all this stuff. And through that, looking into the case, they learned that something had not been disclosed to the defense. Oh, great. The prosecution had previously hired a different blood spatter expert. And they didn't like what that expert said? Yep.

Wow. He said, there's no blood on this nightgown. Oh, my God. He said, there are microscopic specks of something. Right. But I cannot confirm that they are blood. I have no reason to believe that they are blood. There are lots of non-biological things that can react to luminol, like horseradish. Oh, okay. Regular things that you can find in your house. He told

the prosecution, I will not testify in this case because I cannot confirm there is blood on that nightgown. And so then they went and hired this other blood spatter expert who would testify that there was blood all over this nightgown. Oh, shit. And they never disclosed that to the defense. You can't do that. Nope. defense. You can't do that. Nope. Defense attorney Eduardo R. Rodriguez told Accident, Suicide, or Murder, looking at this from a legal standpoint, I think you could consider it a miscarriage of justice. Well, I would say so. I would agree with that, sir. Yeah, you've got to disclose that. Yeah.

Yep. So at this time, Susie's defense is like focusing on like, okay, let's look at this nightgown. Like, can we prove there's no blood or is there enough question? And there just wasn't enough of anything on this nightgown to prove that it was or wasn't blood. It was all horseradish. It's just straight horseradish. And so a hearing was held when they found this stuff out. Yeah. And in December of 1996, Susie's conviction was overturned.

Good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in May of 1997, she was released from prison while they decided what to do next. Would she be tried again? Or would they not pursue charges again? Would she be exonerated? But prosecutors decided to try her again.

They really felt like they had strong enough evidence here to convict her of murder. They definitely don't. I completely agree. I can't believe they tried her again. Yeah. Especially because at that hearing where they overturned her conviction, the original blood spatter expert was like, yeah, my findings were flawed. Oh, my God. They don't matter. I can't scientifically prove it. Oh, my gosh. Yep. So this is just a pride thing. Yep.

Nope. Wow. Yeah. I think that is wild that the blood spatter expert was like, yeah, no, this my testimony was flawed. I cannot scientifically prove that that is blood. I love that. Me, too. I think it's so rare for people to admit their mistakes in any setting, let alone one where the stakes are really high. And, you know, the prosecution didn't want the expert to admit that. Yeah. All right. Exactly. So Susie's second trial began in January of people, like people lined up every day to try and get in the courtroom. Court TV broadcast the whole trial. Bill Mowbray's daughter, Kristen, spoke to the media before the trial, and she said she belongs in jail and she belongs there for the rest of her life. His family just really believed that this was the proper outcome. Emily just really believed that this was the proper outcome. And his brother, Jim, told the media that Susie's defenders were putting too much emphasis on the nightgown.

There was other stuff that proved that she was the one who did this. Okay. But the second trial wouldn't go very well for the prosecution. They had lost some of the evidence between the two trials. What do you mean? They lost all of the betting. And so that was really important to their case. Yeah. And they didn't have any of it for the second trial.

Did they at least have photos of it or any of it? Yeah, they showed photos of it, I believe. But still not as good as like bringing the stuff into the courtroom and letting the jurors see it. But the defense really cracked down on like how, who knows really like how good this investigation was. This scene wasn't secured in any way. I know how good it was. It was not good. It was not.

It was not. For the defense, a psychiatrist testified about Bill's previous suicide attempt. It was about a year before his death and he had shot himself in the chest. Oh, my God. And had survived. Oh, wow. Wow. And at the time, a friend said Bill had told him he would rather kill himself than spend a single day in jail.

And he was under investigation by the IRS. Yeah. That's really interesting that his previous suicide attempt had been to shoot himself. Yeah. I'm amazed he survived that. I am too. Luke Fruja, Bill's assistant at his business, testified that Bill was a very lonely person and that he and Bill had had not necessarily a falling out. They had had a difficult relationship because Luke had told Bill that he was planning to

leave the dealership. And Luke was maybe Bill's closest colleague, a friend even. Yeah. And he said that he would be lost without him. Sure. And so Luke testified that he believed the suicide story. He believed the bill he knew was capable of it and that that's what happened. The original blood spatter expert from the first trial that had delivered the evidence about the microscopic blood spatter, he testified at the second trial for the defense and said that his original testimony was scientifically invalid. Did he go into detail on like? He just said that he admits that he cannot confirm that the substance on the dress is in fact blood.

Wow. The specks are so small, there's no way to know. They did react under luminol, but it is true that lots of non-bodily fluids can react under luminol. Is this just one of those situations where, like, you know better, you do better? Yeah, I think so. And now I know more and I wouldn't testify that way now? I don't know. I would think that's what this is.

Wow. All right. But prosecutors stuck to their story. They said that Susie had shot Bill, kind of crouched over him. She had set the pillows up over her gown so that she couldn't get any blood on her and had reached around and shot him to make it look like he had shot himself. And that she had done it for the insurance payout. and that she had done it for the insurance payout. There was a very dramatic moment toward the end of the trial.

I believe during closing arguments, Susie, who is now 49 years old, is sitting at the defense table and all of a sudden she starts crying out into the courtroom. I didn't do it! I didn't do it. And she starts crying and she's just yelling over and over again. I didn't do it. I didn't do it. They had to physically remove her from the courtroom. Wow. I saw footage of this. Uh-huh. She covers her face the whole time. It's extremely dramatic. Right. Does not come off very authentic though oh and it's talked about by suzy's supporters during this episode that like that was a moment they really thought did did damage in front of the jury they really thought like this looked very calculated did not go over well. But on January 23rd, 1998,

the jury found her not guilty. Upon hearing the verdict, Susie, I mean, her jaw dropped. She said, oh my God. And then she got up and she hugged her son and daughter. Yeah. In a very unprecedented move, the jury foreman, Edward Saldivar, after the trial, went out to the cameras outside of the courtroom and made a public statement in which he said that the jury's verdict did not reflect their view of guilt or innocence. What?

That they simply believed the prosecution had not proven their case. Oh, well, sure. Yeah. But the jury specifically wanted to make a public statement about this because this was such a high-profile trial. They wanted people to know that they didn't necessarily think suzy was not guilty yeah they believe the prosecution did not prove their case they talk about this on the episode and there's a one of the one of the pundits or whatever he's like i've never heard of this happening ever before

yeah i mean we've never covered no one where that yeah when i heard it i was like i've never heard of that happening and then like their talking head is like, yeah, I've never heard of this before. But I think that makes total sense. Oh, I think it makes sense too. Especially when something's being tried in the court of public opinion. Yeah. And even when, especially a case like this where I can see how she's the one who did this. Yeah.

But at the same time, I completely agree with the jury that this was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Yeah. And that's what they're there to do. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. And so Susie was free to go. She is on the list of official exonerees. But a lot of people believe she got away with murder.

I don't know. I could see it either way on this case. I think the painting is really weird to me, painting the room. I don't know. I could see it either way on this case. I think the painting is really weird to me, painting the room. See, I don't think so. Yeah, that's so interesting that we're so far apart on that. Yeah. Yeah. In the end, Susie did not receive any of Bill's life insurance.

She did fight for it for a long time, all the way up until 2002, it looks like. She appealed a ruling that denied her getting a payout. It went to Bill's daughter. Susie's son did go on to become a lawyer, according to, okay, this comes directly from the Forensic Files Now entry. So according to the profile on his professional website, which is no longer active, but at some point he had it listed that he had had a career in litigation and that his work had been featured in the New York Times, 2020, Dateline, Good Morning America, The Today Show, and People magazine. Goodness. Yeah. But he did leave his job as a litigator and he became a pastor. Oh, cool.

Yeah. He works today as a consultant for other pastors for the church leadership group. Okay. On the Forensic Files episode, Susie is interviewed and she talks about this new lease on life that she has now that she's got kind of a second shot and now she's going to make her life matter. And she talked about wanting to write a book. As of this recording, it does not appear that that has happened. But as I said, people are very torn on this case. A lot of people think she got away with murder. Yeah. And a lot of people believe that Bill died by suicide. I mean, she did serve eight years, right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Am I nuts? I feel like given that, she didn't get away. I agree. I agree. She did serve time. Absolutely. Absolutely. A crime writer named Manning Wolfe was interviewed. Oh, shit. That's a cool name. I know. It's a really cool name. Was interviewed on the accident, suicide, or murder episode, and they said, there's only one person that knows what happened to Bill Mowbray. And that's Susie Mowbray. And that's the story of the death of a salesman.

Salesman. Salesman. Wow. That is a very brandy case. It is. Yes. And a very brandy Christmas. It is. Yes. And a very brandy Christmas. Yeah, that's right.

I feel like it's always a very something Christmas. That's tough. Okay, so you're really weirded out by the painting and all that stuff. Yeah, I think the painting's super weird. How long do you leave a room like that? I mean, until the police tell me that I can do something with it. But that's me. I'm such a rule follower. I'd be like, okay, until the police tell me I can go back in there and do anything, I'm leaving it alone.

But the police didn't say don't go back in there, right? I mean, I guess that's true. They didn't police tape off the room or anything. Yeah. And if you're like, okay, my husband died by suicide. That's true. Then. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. like okay my husband died by suicide that's true then yeah yeah yeah to me the fact that she had

friends over makes it make more sense to me because the friends in that case it's like what can we do what yeah sure yeah i see that as well you know okay i've made the casserole yeah well now you're telling me the kids are coming home well we don't want them to see the house like that. Yeah. No, I think the big thing is that no investigation was done. So there's no way to know what. Right. What really happened here.

Yeah. I do think that there is no way to prove that Susie did this. So this is the right outcome. I do not think she should be in prison for this. No. Because they can't prove that she did this. Right. Also, this case just reeks of 80s to me. Oh, yeah. The stuff about, well, she didn't react the right way. Right. She had a cocktail and a cigarette. And I'm just kind of like, OK, well. Again, it's totally possible she did this, but I hear something like that and I'm like,

gosh, I'm glad I don't know how I would react in that situation. Maybe I would want a cocktail in that situation. I also think that if your spouse is really threatening suicide on a weekly basis, you probably become desensitized to it to some degree. Or when it finally happens, your reaction is not what other people would expect. I think, again, also the 80s-ness of it, I feel like we understand more today that there's such a wide range of how people react to trauma. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Man, hard candy Christmas, hard brandy case. Thank you very much. You're welcome.

Shall we do another ad? We shall. Doodaloo. And we're back from the ad. Doodaloo. Doodaloo. Should we take some questions from the Discord? I believe we shall.

Excellent. To get into our Discord, all you have to do is sign up on our Patreon at the $5 level or higher. That gets you all kinds of bonus episodes. 57? Ma'am. Yeah, 57. 57 bonus episodes to binge right away. And when we record, we ask you for your questiones and you send us

pepperonis. FrozenLikeAGrape asks, Brandy, are you into March Madness? I'm at the T-Mobile Center right now watching the Big 12 Conference tourney. Am I into March Madness? She has been mad this month. Yes, I love March Madness. I will say it's a little bit of a difficult year for me because my Jayhawks have not been performing well this season. I do have my Jayhawks sweatshirt on right now, though, because it is game day. They play Cincinnati this evening. I will be watching. Yeah, I love March Madness.

I watch as many basketball games as I can during that time period. It is like my favorite time of year. What about the Olympics? Okay, so. Wow. They, okay. All the Olympians are crying now. March Madness happens every year.

The Olympics only happen every couple of years. Oh, so suck it March Madness. No, I do get more excited about the Olympics than I do about March Madness, but only slightly. You know the first thing I'm going to do when I take over the Patreon? What? And I become the evil overlord? You're going to ban sports talk? Yeah, the Discord has a channel in it for sports.

I'm getting rid of that. Okay. And I'll ban anyone who brings up sports. Yeah. Ooh, Amber the Buy Disney adult asks, what's your go-to feel-better drink? I'm a Gatorade person, but I know many people swear by teas. You're a Gatorade person. So we're both sick right now, obviously.

They can't tell. Okay, you know what I was thinking? How many beverages did I consume during the bonus episode on Monday? I mean, you started with five and you got refills. Which is a record. Yes. Yeah, so I think I did seven. Yeah.

Yeah, everyone. So I feel like absolute doggy-do. is worse than poo poo butter. This is poo poo margarine. Okay. Shit, shit, margarine. Oh, man. I just coined it. Hey, everyone, Brandy's not happy for me because she didn't think of it first. Yeah, that's what it is. I'm jealous. No, I, Jealous. No, I, but like, all that to say, I did not feel like going anywhere today. But I'm on like day whatever of this thing with no Gatorade. And I was like, I cannot go another moment without Gatorade.

Yeah. So I bravely went to Costco. Yeah, Gatorade is. With a mask on. Gatorade's one of mine too. And then also Sprite, like regular Sprite. Yeah. I always drink diet soda, but regular Sprite. And I prefer it room temperature when I'm sick.

You know what? For some reason, I get that. Yeah. I don't know why I get that, but I do. I have no idea why, but that's what I like. No, I – isn't it weird how like soda is so comforting? Yeah. I've been drinking Coke Zero.

Yeah. Like it's my job. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't know why this would be helpful, but it does feel good. Yeah. Anyway, I'm not questioning it. Coffee Time says, listening to episode 169, what do you have against Yahoo emails? Oh.

Nothing. Nothing, you freak. Nothing. They're right up there with AOL email accounts. David has a Ymail account. Oh Nothing Nothing you freak Nothing They're right up there With AOL email accounts Yeah No David has a Ymail account

That's his regular account That's his account That he uses all the time He has a Gmail account Because Like we have Google Fiber And so he was required

To get a Gmail account He reluctantly got one He doesn't use it For anything He uses his Ymail account How big a red flag Is that for you? It's It's a red flag For sure He doesn't use it for anything. He uses his Ymail account. How big a red flag is that for you?

It's a red flag for sure. Ooh, Spooky Fox wants to know, have either of you ever been to the Precious Moments Chapel in Carthage, Missouri? I've never been, but I've seen it many times. So same. Yeah. Yeah. If you live in this area, you've passed it a million times. And also, we're both at the age.

Well, I guess I don't know if your grandmothers collected precious moments, but, man, mine sure did. I did not have anybody in my immediate family who collected it. That's a shame. My sisters, my two stepsisters, their mom collected it. And so I did see a lot of precious moments over the years. Well, yeah, you can't unsee them. And like then she started collections for them too. Oh, yeah. Sorry, this is, we might have to cut this, but how'd they feel about that? I don't think either of them still have their precious moments collections. So that might be the answer to that. They were robbed, you're saying. Everyone, you've got to look out.

When you're collecting those creepy little dolls with the big eyes, thieves will come in and steal that right up. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. This is the best question that's ever been asked. In the trunk of a truck wants to know, Brandy, would you rather have a family of cockroaches live in your house forever or fart audibly in public occasionally? Everyone, she is shaking her head. That's the worst question ever. It's the best question.

I mean, I have to choose farting because I can't live with cockroaches because a family of cockroaches will quickly become a fucking colony of cockroaches that just takes over my home. What if we could limit? Oh, so I just have like a nice mom and dad cockroach with two kids? No one said they were nice. Okay, shitty. 15.

15 cockroaches. No, I can't live with 15 cockroaches. You're going to fart audibly in public. I'm going to have to, I guess. What would you do? You're at work, at the salon. You're doing the hair of a client and you fart audibly. I don't know what I would do.

That would be horrible. That's like my worst nightmare. Would you? I have a pair of hippies that just sometimes if I step wrong, it sounds like a fart. I won't wear those to work anymore because I am so worried that my client is going to think I'm farting. Right. Because I'm so close to them. That would be like the rudest thing ever. Sure.

To just be fucking ripping ass. Right. Right. But let's say it happens. What do you do? Would you just like leave town forever, change your name? I honestly have no idea what I would do. I would be humiliated.

I think you'd die. I would. You would just drop dead. I think my soul would leave my body right then. Yeah. Yeah. There's no scenario in this where you're just like, excuse me. No, absolutely not.

No. I like how that's the last thing. where you're just like, excuse me. No, absolutely not. No. I like how that's the last thing. That is the last thing that would happen. Acknowledge it? No. No. No. Oh, this is kind of funny.

Jissy asks, Brandy, before you go, Jissy? Oh, my. G-I-S-S-Y? Do you think that's how it's pronounced? Jissy? That just sounded a little jizzy to me. Sorry. Before you go, can you tell me all of your siblings and their place in the tree?

Are they married? Do they have kids? You've mentioned so many and I can't keep them straight. I need to finish my 10 Pounds Fan Fun Fact Book, please. Wow, Jissy and I are on the same page. All right. The pages are stuck together, obviously. My oldest sister is Jennifer.

She's three years older than I am. And she has 25 precious moments figurines. She is married to John, and they have two children, a boy and a girl, my niece and nephew. And then next is my sister, Casey. You all know Casey. She is two years older than I am, and she is married to James. They do not have kids. She designed the Dixon Cider shirt.

Yes. In case you're wondering. Yeah. And then it's me. Obviously, I am married and have London Jackson. Go into more detail. And then it's my sister, Kim. So my sister, Kim, and I are actually the same age. We are eight days apart. And she is married to Adam and has two children. Those are my siblings. Also, my brother was the youngest and obviously he passed away. Yeah. Yeah. There you go.

Jot it down. Yeah. There's your fun facts, folks. Oh, this is such a cool one. Munchie Potato says, not a question, but Brandy, you should do a You in London night on your first official night podcast work free. Okay. I read that wrong, but you get what I'm saying. Get pizza, watch a movie, snuggle, sleepover, etc. Just really soak in your baby and remind yourself you made the right decision. Do you have plans for like your

first official like night free? Yeah, I mean, it's not far off. It's not far off. And yeah, we're gonna do something. I mean, very similar to that. That's cool. That's exactly what we have planned. Yeah. I'm so excited for it. Yeah. On that night, I'll be cackling as I delete the sports channel in Discord. Ooh, Titty Tinsel says, what do you do when you feel the urge to make a drastic, dramatic change to your hair, but everyone else in the office has recently done the big chop and you don't want to look like you're copying them but you really want a copper red bob like you had after that bad breakup in 2010 you get the fucking copper red bob get it okay but is

everyone else in the office rocking a copper red bob because then you would seem like a sure they're not i mean probably not yeah but if they, then that would look kind of weird. You've got to admit. I say if you want to do the chop, you do the chop. Okay. Yeah. Except for the tomahawk chop.

No one should ever do that and it's embarrassing. Oh my gosh. I know. I always like when I see Kansas City kind of like on the map and everything. Yep.

And then we're on a national, arguably international stage and we're doing something super racist. And it's like, well, yeah. Okay, that's great. All right. We are a Midwestern redneck city, I guess. Did you see that some of the people who went to that game? Yes. that some of the people who went to that game. Yes, who went to the Dolphins game when it was, when the fucking actual, or the wind chill was negative 25.

They have had to have amputations from frostbite. Oh my gosh. I mean, they fucking told people, don't come to this game, it's too cold. Well, they probably shouldn't. They shouldn't have had it. They should have moved it. That's what I'm saying.

100% they should have. Yeah. Yes. Because people have moved it. That's what I'm saying. 100% they should have. Yeah. Yes. Because people are nuts opening. Yes. Yeah. Also, we should probably just get rid of sports, right? No.

Instead of sports, we'll just have episodes of Survivor. That's how we'll do it, right? My God, everyone. Everyone, I wish you could see Brandy's face. She is smiling and nodding, agreeing with me completely. Oh, the Ginger Snap wants to know, hey, Brandy, I'm looking to get back into internet dating. Any tips on what to or not to include in a dating profile? You have such experience with this.

You were on one for like, was it two days, three days? It was two days. Well, that's two days more than me. So let's hear your hot tips. These are my hot tips. Okay. I don't know. I put.

Well, your profile was funny. I think it's important. I think it is funny. I think it makes us. I think you put something on it that's very you. That makes you stand out. So I put specifically looking for someone to kill spiders for me. Yeah.

Like that was my big like that was the heading of my profile. Sure. Also, though, I did also put that I didn't have kids and David almost didn't talk to me because he was worried that I wouldn't like him because he had kids. So maybe, I don't know, decide how you feel about that. Decide if you want to put that on there. Maybe I would have missed David. No, you wouldn't have no yeah no yeah no i just i just put okay i put like two very recent pictures of myself and then one like cute snapchat picture of myself like with a cute little filter on with like ears oh gross you

did yeah it was cute okay don't gross. It wasn't the main picture. Oh, but this was like five years ago. Yes. Okay, we'll allow it. We'll allow it. All right. Yes, it was five years ago. Okay, okay.

Almost exactly five years ago. Oh, that's weird. Yeah, you're right. Yes. Okay. Almost to the day, folks. Mm, mm, mm, mm. Yeah.

Yeah, I was really worried that I had made sure to have pictures that, like, really looked like myself on there. Well, sure. I was so worried of having a moment where I, like, meet somebody and it's like, you don't look like your picture at all. Oh, that would be just really funny. So I do think it's really important just to be, like, totally be yourself. So you held up a picture of a newspaper right next to you with the current date.

Yeah. You're like, this is me. This is me. is me yeah that also be prepared because there's going to be a lot of shit lots of and by shit you mean dick pics yes okay yeah just dick pics flying at you left right i've heard it's better like on bumble though because the the female has to make the first thing move but how does that work do they only do same sex or do they only do i doubt that surely they don't surely how does that work in a same sex situation you're asking the wrong person i've literally i've never been on bumble either i don't know but i know that on like original Bumble when it's set up, the woman had to send the first message. But what if we're

talking about a same sex relationship? Who sends the first message then? Gay men are just screwed on that app. I think, okay. Sorry. You know what? This episode I have noticed I've laughed really hard at a lot of my own jokes. And that was a great one. Yeah, I don't know. No, I don't know how that works. Anyway, these are terrible tips. I don't know why anybody would come to me for tips about online dating. I met one person.

Well, you know, you found a good one. So that's why they asked. I mean, I'm sorry, folks. I found the best fucking one. So the best fucking one. I apologize. The worst regular one. No, no.

The best at fucking. He's the best at everything. Wow. Okay. Calm down. No, it is no secret. I am so fucking in love with my husband, and he is an amazing person. Yeah, you should be. And I'm so lucky to have found him.

Yeah. Yeah. That hoe phase was really rough. Yeah, it was. You know what? I do actually have online dating tips. You do? Yes, I do.

Okay, what is it? Shut up. I do. Okay. I do. All right. Men just, what is it? When you like someone, you swipe right? Is that right? Yeah, I think so I do. All right. Men just what is it when you like someone you swipe right? Is that right?

Yeah, I think so. Okay. Men just swipe right on everybody. So if you match with someone, yeah, and you're a woman, don't put too much thought into that. Yeah. Really discern for yourself. Yeah. You're interested in that other person. That is really good. Yeah. Don't just assume you were picked and don't worry too much about being picked. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I think that's good. Yeah, I know. Absolutely. Also, what? Here's my tip is that I knew David's last name and had confirmed his divorce before he ever gave me that information. And so I would just say, you know, do your own due diligence. Oh, of course.

Yeah. Listen, if people are listening to True Crime Podcast. They know. Yeah. They know. This is not the group that's not Googling people. Yes. Yeah.

Google is your friend. Did you watch that like 48 part video? The who the fuck did I marry thing from TikTok? I've only seen bits and pieces of it. I've not watched the whole thing. Yeah. I've read synopsis of it. You didn't have a whole weekend to dedicate. No, I did not. No, I haven't, you know, done the whole thing yet. But well, so this was a great topic of conversation I brought up. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll end it there.

Great. Yeah. People know what we're talking about. They sure do. Hell yeah, with an ax, says not a question. But I was just driving to work, enjoying the beautiful day with my windows down while I drove. I stopped at a red light as Madame Kristen Caruso said, I got pain in my front butt through my car speakers.

A woman and her dog in the car next to mine definitely heard and seemed to have concerns. Well, see, there are good people out there and good dogs out there. They were all concerned about your front butt. See, that's one of those things I'm like, I have no doubt that I said it. Yeah. But I have no memory of saying it. No memory of saying it. Yeah, no, that for sure sounds like a Kristen moment.

Oh, you know what? You've had pain in your front butt too, ma'am. Yeah, I've definitely had pain in my front butt. I would say, though, that's maybe one of the more mild things people have overheard you say. Ma'am, I think sometimes you forget you're talking to the Grace Kelly of podcasting. Endless class coming out my ass. Should we move on to Supreme Court inductions? We should.

Folks, once again, we are reading your names and your first celebrity crushes. We've cut you off big time. We had to do a cutoff because we were trying to get through. I'll leave these in the last couple episodes. Yes. So it's a long list. And here we go. Angel Swan.

Orlando Bloom. Lindsay. Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Duh. Keely. Zac Efron. Meredith. Eric Stolz.

Lauren Rackley. Brett Favre. Jane Albrecht. Joe Jonas. Grandma Poodie Jodie Foster Amber Jones Johnny Depp

Spoopy Lucy Dougie from McFly Was that your stomach? Yes Or your throat? Or your butt? It was not my butt It was kind of like right here

Between your boobs? Traveled up my throat. Okay. I don't really know. Anyway. All right. Very good. June.

Jordan Knight. Kim Shelton. Dimitri from Anastasia. Carrie Lynn. Uncle Jesse. Dylan Moore. Britney Spears. Charlie.

Tom Hardy. Kimberly List. Taylor Hansen. Alexis Hunley. Paul Rudd. Allie Galladay. Gilbert Blythe. Katie Fearon.

Donnie Wahlberg. Julie. Kirk Cameron. Olivia Wendt. Connie Britton. Abby Grace Allen. Macaulay Culkin. Whitney.

Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Natty Daddy. Hugh Grant. Megan V. JTT. Chloe M Barbie Lizzie Marlon Brando

Chrissy Craig Zach Hansen Fex Jocksworthy Shaggy from Scooby Doo Kristen Drake Gavin Rossdale Lynn Kruger Andes Leonardo DiCaprio

Bess Corey Michael J. Fox Rachel Allen. Tobey Maguire. Nadia Simmons. Paul Walker. Nat. Shego.

Hannah Johnson. Jordan Knight. Melinda. Jonathan Taylor Thomas again, my goodness. Elsie. Usher. Rachel Beckworth. JTT.

Emily. Corey Haim. Katie. Tom Felton. Emma Sundstrom. I actually don't remember, so I'll use this time to tell you that I was born on June 12th, as were my mother and cousin. Ooh!

Okay, what does that back up into? You know what I'm saying. What's the conception date if everyone's being born on June 12th? It's like October. You seem like you don't want to think about this. No, because my mom already told me. What?

Yeah, my mom ruined my life one day and told me I was a World Series baby. Oh, gross. I'm sorry. The Royals won the World Series in 1985. Anyway, thanks, Mom. Very sorry. Thanks, Kristen, for bringing it up. I'm sorry.

Anyway, Megan. Dermot Mulroney. Amy B. Nina from Zoom. Tanner. Daisy Egan. Ooh, podcaster extraordinaire. Yeah.

Frankie Lozano. Mark Paul Gosselaar. Jen. Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Maeve. Keanu. Molly McCartney. Randall Flarn.

Randall Flarn. Do they mean Mandel Flarn or isartney. Randall Flarn. Randall Flarn. Do they mean Mandalflarn or is there an actual Randall Flarn? I hope that's a real person. That's an amazing name. Okay. Charity. Anna Chlumsky. Lynn.

Devin Sawa. Eileen. John from Chips. Oh, that's the one that everybody says my dad looks like. Oh. Boy. Yeah. Cool. If only Eileen like. Oh. Boy. Yeah. Cool.

If only Eileen came. Oh. No. No. What? What? You were going to say something disgusting. No, I wasn't.

You for sure were. I was just going to sit here and move on to the next name. Jennifer. Joshua Jackson. Brandi Werner. No, this is interesting. Joe McIntyre. Oh.

Oh, kind of. It's more serious interesting. Joe McIntyre. Oh. Kind of. He's more, it's more serious. Other people know him as Joey. Whitney. JTT. Melody Poggio. All the boys from DC Talk.

Jesus is just all right with me. Jesus is just all right with me. Jesus is just all right with me. Man, some of those songs, I would not have thought that just seeing those words together, I would know. Yeah. But it turns out Jesus is just all right with me. Just all right with you. Yeah. Lee.

Sebastian Stan. Angelina. JTT. Do you think there's any chance that he listens to this podcast? JTT? And feels a little embarrassed. Maybe. Maybe someone has told him. And no, he listens to it just to JTT? And feels a little embarrassed. Maybe. Maybe someone has told him.

And no, he listens to it just to make himself feel real good. I mean, he has to know how hot he was back in the day. No, he for sure knows. I assume he's still hot. You don't just fall off a cliff after that.

I'm sure he's still doing just great. And by the way, the cliff is hotness. Oh, okay. Just so we're all clear. Very good. Katie Hurd. Chris Farley.

Sarah S. Oh my God, JTT again. Olivia Witt. Chris Farley. Sarah S. Oh, my God. JTT again. Olivia Witt. Connie Britton. Tiffany. Jonathan Brandes. Aaron Urich. Joseph Gordon-Levitt.

Laura. Jessica Alba. Maddie DiCarlo. Zac Efron. Alicia Elliott. Christopher Reeve. Is it Christopher Reeves? No, it's Reeve.

Oh, all right. Sorry. Sorry, Alicia. Lisa. JTT all right. Sorry. Sorry, Alicia. Lisa. JTT again, my goodness. Shaylee. Harrison Ford. Savannah Coolidge.

Diego from Dora. Golnoosh. Adam Brody. Jacob S. Jodi Sweetin. Kate. Madonna. Angel.

Andre Goer. Alyssa Christensen. Kelly Clarkson. Morgan Owens. Andre Goer. Alyssa Christensen. Kelly Clarkson. Morgan Owens. Ryder Strong. Liz. Noah Wiley. Brittany Bell.

Drake Bell. KDG 312. Andrew Keegan. Bethy. Ricky Schroeder. Ashley. Orlando Bloom. Hannah Casey.

Ryan Merriman. He was mine. Really? Yeah. Yeah. We've already talked about this. He was in the deep end of the ocean. I Merriman. He was mine. Really? Yeah. Yeah. We've already talked about this. He was in the deep end of the ocean. I'm so sorry.

He was kidnapped as a little kid. He was Michelle Pfeiffer's son. And then it turns out he'd been living around the corner the whole time. She recognizes him when he's 13 years old. And he came over and asked if he could mow the yard for money. I love how you act like you don't want to tell this story when you clearly relish. I could keep going. I know.

I know. But I'm just not buying the art of this. Because I saw another movie, it was a period piece called Just Looking. Oh, everyone quit asking Brandy about this man. And he was like

in love with Gretchen Maul even though she was like 30 and he was like 14. Yeah, and he should have been in love with you the whole time. We get it. No.

We totally get it. Luella B. Jonathan Brandes. Neri. Bill Lames. Neary. Bill Lambert. Miranda. The angelfish from Finding Nemo. That's the best answer.

Wasn't he mean? You can go for the bad boy. All right. The bad boy angelfish. Moss. Kristen Stewart. Kristen. Brent Smith. Gail Forward. Ryan Moss. Kristen Stewart. Kristen. Brent Smith.

Gail Forward. Ryan Reynolds. Leanne. Rod Stewart. Lilius. Hugh Laurie. Callie. Eliza Dushku.

Tasha. Robin Hood. Lucy Sackowitz. 1955 live action Peter Pan Mary Martin. Robin. Genuine. Caitlin. Tom DeLonge.

Oh, absolutely. Trisha. Don't ask Brandy to go into a detailed account of Tom DeLonge's movies. He's a man. Who is that? I don't know. He's the guitarist from Blink-182. Exactly, so don't ask about the movies

because he's not been in the movies. Also, he's obsessed with aliens. Okay. Great. Trisha. Ralph Macchio. Allie Stoller. Jonathan Frakes. Letty Smith. Joey McIntyre. Cara

Curry. Nick Carter. Lori. John Schneider. Annie. Robin Hood. Joy. Devin Sawa and Christina Ricci, Demetria Milton, Paul Newman, Reese, Karen Gillan, Shana McKechnie, Eminem. Welcome to the Supreme Supreme Court! Oh my god, I'm sorry. Thank you, everyone, for all of your support. We appreciate it so much. Don't we sound amazing? Yeah, this was the perfect week to have two episodes to record.

We've done great. How dare you cough? I haven't coughed this whole time. I definitely didn't cough during the Supreme Court inductions. That was you. Anyway,'t coughed this whole time. I definitely didn't cough during the Supreme Court inductions. That was you. Anyway, please find us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Patreon. Please remember to subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen. Head on over to Apple Podcasts.

Leave us a five-star rating and review. And then be sure to join us next week. When I will have the final episode. The final countdown. The final episode. It's the final countdown. Do-do-do-do. Do-do-do-do-do. Do-do-do-do.

And now for a note about our process. No, I just said podcast adjourned. Oh, it's our podcast adjourned. Podcast adjourned. Wow. Wow. All right. And now for a note about our podcast.

It's about our process. About our process. I'm sorry. Brandy won't let me sing. I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes wikipedia so we owe a huge thank you to the real experts oh shit i was not supposed to there's your stuff you couldn't find oh my gosh that is the stuff i couldn't find the other day i got my info from an episode of Accident, Suicide, or Murder, an episode of Forensic Files, ForensicFilesNow.com, Oxygen.com,

The New York Times, and The Court Record. Everyone, for the bonus episode the other day, I couldn't find where I put my sources. I could have sworn I put my sources in. I did. They're just right here. Just in the wrong spot. Anyway, for a full list of our sources, visit LGTCPodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it.

Go read their stuff. Woo! We made it. We did.