Let's Go To Court! - 294: OTP: Lucy Goes to Hollywood (Part 2)

Episode Date: July 10, 2024

This is part two of Kristin’s seven-part series on Lucille Ball. The entire series is out now at www.oldtimeypodcast.com. If you enjoy it, please subscribe to an Old Timey Podcast! 

Hey Let's Go to Court fans, Kristen Caruso here, and in case you haven't heard, I've got a new show. It's called an Old-Timey Podcast. It's a fun, deep-divey history podcast, and I host it with my husband Norm. And this week, I wrapped up a seven-part series on the legendary comedian Lucille Ball. We're dropping a couple episodes of that series here in the Let's Go to Court feed, and if you like it and want to listen to the entire series, hop over to an old-timey podcast. Every episode is out now to binge. So come join us. And while you're at it, subscribe to an old-timey podcast.

Toodles. Hear ye, hear ye. You are listening to an old-timey podcast. I'm Kristen Caruso. And I'm the one that almost got away, Norman Caruso. Did you almost get away? Yeah. I don't think you did.

You had to fight for me. On this week's episode, Lucille Ball goes to Hollywood. Hollywood. Lucille Ball boss going to Hollywood? Oh, man. What an exciting episode this is going to be, huh? Yes. But before we get started, I have something I must do. What?

Mistakes of shame. Oh, yeah, you do have a mistake. I made a horrible mistake. It wasn't horrible. Devastating. Could end the podcast. Oh, boy. Last week we were talking about Lucille Ball and her childhood. And you mentioned that Lucille Ball was tied up on a leash or chain in her backyard when she was a kid, right?

Yes. And I mentioned that, you know, some parents still do that today with like those soft cloth leashes. And you made a joke about, oh, that's just a kid with a kink. Yeah, because I'm hilarious. That joke flew right over my head. Didn't even acknowledge it. Nothing. And then when I edited the episode, still nothing.

Didn't acknowledge it. Didn't even realize the joke was made. And then episode comes out. The history hoes rejoice. One of the first comments is, kid with a kink is a great joke. Norman, how did you not say anything to that? And I was like, what is she talking about? And so I had to go back and listen.

Hilarious joke. Very, very good. I apologize for not reacting to that great joke. It is amazing to me that you feel the need to do a mistakes of shame segment for this. But history hoes, you got to know this man is truly ashamed of himself. When that happened, when someone like said, oh, I liked that joke. Norm, why didn't you react? Norm, you were like, I am terrible at reacting to stories. I promise I will do better.

I am so sorry. I can't do better. I am so sorry. Basically every time you have done an episode and I've reacted, right after a recording, we go on a walk and I say, well, that was the worst episode we've ever done. And it's all thanks to me and my terrible reaction skills. But anyway. Norm, you're good. Thank you.

I'm still learning. It's okay. I'm still becoming the man I'm supposed to be wow alright well this has been another exciting segment of Mistakes of Shame well done sir anyway let's get into Lucille Ball

going to Hollywood the land of dreams could you cue up the echoey thing because I'm going to do a previously. Could you cue up the echoey thing? Because I'm going to do a previously. Oh, you don't want the echoey thing. You want... Previously on an old-timey podcast. That was terrible.

This sounds like the devil from South Park. I'm never turning this off. You better. Oh, that was awful. You have to do the whole episode like that. Anyway, we learned that Lucille Ball, the woman who would one day become a world-famous comedian and in the process invent the modern sitcom with her real-life husband, had a tumultuous childhood marked by tragedy. Her father died when she was three years old.

Her mother, Dee Dee, left her for years in the care of stoic grandparents. When little Lucy's family came back together, tragedy tore them apart once again. An accident with a gun resulted in a little boy being paralyzed and Lucy's family losing the one place they'd finally called home. Teenaged Lucy was wild, ambitious, obsessed with show business, and eager to make her mark on the world. She weathered countless failed auditions, all the while dealing with hunger and poverty. auditions, all the while dealing with hunger and poverty. But a brief foray into modeling landed her what would become the opportunity of a lifetime, the chance to go to Hollywood and get her big break. And now for the thrilling second episode of our series on Lucille Ball.

Lucy goes to Hollywood, bitch. And she finds love. Oh, yeah. Sounds like a fun time in Hollywood. Well. You're going to need that button plenty of times in this episode. I also have to say, I don't know how long this series is going to be, folks. It could be a long one. Welcome to part 72. Yeah.

Let us know what you think. I really love Lucille Ball. I'm having fun with it. I love a series. But I just want to give the people what they want, Norm. It's given me plenty of time off to develop my organ. So thank you for covering Lucille Ball for multiple weeks. It's kind of a selfish thing for me to tell my organ. So thank you for covering Lucille Ball for multiple weeks. Kind of a

selfish thing for me to tell the truth. Now, Norm, I have to confess something. Okay. I ended the last episode on a bit of a cliffhanger. You did? Yeah. I said that Lucy was the 13th woman hired for a job that was only taking 12. Well, one of them dropped out because her mom said it was a bad idea. So cliffhanger adjourned. Lucy made it to Hollywood just fine. All right. Okay, so picture it, baby. It's 1933 and Lucille Ball is loving her life. She's in California and everything is awesome. The sunshine, the glamour, the showbiz, kid. Lucy knew from her many failed auditions in New York that she had a tendency to blend in. In a room full of gorgeous women, she was never the most gorgeous. She was never the standout.

Yeah, I remember you talking about that. But she understood that. the standout. Yeah, I remember you talking about that. But she understood that. And she understood that if she wanted to get noticed and if she wanted to keep a job, she'd have to differentiate herself from the other showgirls. So stand out above the crowd, even if I got a shout out loud. What the hell is that? It's from a Goofy movie. Oh, my God. It's only Powerline, Kristen, the biggest rock star on the planet. Norm, we are here to talk about old Hollywood. It was a glamorous time, okay? We're not here to talk about a goofy movie.

Well, that's just peak Hollywood when a goofy movie came out. What's that other stupid song you always sing from a goofy movie? Do you need a break from modern living? Everyone? Do you love to share your weary woes? Norm and I have been together for like 15 years now. Literally every time we are driving someplace, especially if it's a road trip, guarantee you Norm sings that song.

Oh, definitely. Yes. Yeah, it's called The Open Road. So it would only make sense I would sing it on a road trip. Yeah, it would be bizarre if you didn't, right? It would be very strange. Anyway. Unless my wife requests me to sing it during a podcast recording.

Anyway, continue. In Hollywood, the way she stood out was by being willing. Willing to try anything. Every now and then, a director would want one of the showgirls to be the butt of a joke, take a pie to the face, take a seltzer to the face, have a dangerous interaction with an animal. Oh, like, can you give me an example here? Well, okay,? Well, OK. Damn it, Norm.

There's a reason I didn't. And it's because she at one point talked about being gummed by a crocodile. Gummed? OK. But it's unclear to me at least like was she joking when she said that or did that really happen? There's no footage of it. Crocodile with no teeth. I mean. Getting gummed.

Yeah, that's what I would think. Now I'm imagining a crocodile with dentures. Because it never brushed. Whatever it was, Lucy was always game. She was a team player. Partly because she felt she had to be. If her experiences in New York City had taught her anything, it was that she did not audition well. But her experience in California was different because she hadn't auditioned for it. And that was the thing about

Lucy. Once she was in and once people got to know her, they wanted to keep her around. So she got to know people and she landed more and more roles. And I mean, they weren't really roles. She was always just one of the pretty girls dancing around in the background of these movies. And of course, they were always called girls even when they were grown women. But, you know, that was fine. She was making money and she was squirreling it away oh saving that's right dp would be proud he would that's my dad for any fresh hoes anyone who's new to the pod we haven't gotten uh have we gotten any fresh hoes yet i don't know everyone let us know if you're a fresh hoe if you've just discovered this podcast for the first time.

It's like Cinderella. We're waiting for that. We're looking for that one fresh hoe. We have a smelly Birkenstock waiting for you. That's right. Yeah. So she was squirreling away money because for Lucy, a career in showbiz wasn't just about being famous or seeing herself on screen, although that was definitely a big part of it. It was about money. It was about becoming a provider for her family. Lucy's dreams were intertwined. She wanted to become an actress and she wanted to bring her family together again.

Yeah, I remember you talking about that in the first part, how one of her big motivators was money because it seemed to be the solution to all of the problems in her life. Yeah, and I think money gets a bad reputation sometimes. But when you're at this level, money would solve a lot of problems. Money does solve a lot of problems. Well, yeah. Her grandpa had lost all of his savings. He was in a lot of problems. Well, yeah, her grandpa had lost all of his savings. He was in a really bad situation. He lost his house, too. Yeah. Her mother and shitty stepdad had separated. So her mom was on her own like money would solve some problems.

And Lucy wanted to be the one with the solution. This is why we plug the Patreon every episode. Yeah, because we're trying to get my parents to move in with us. Yeah. the one with the solution. This is why we plug the Patreon every episode. Because we're trying to get my parents to move in with us. Yeah. So she got her little brother Fred to join her in California because she wanted everyone in California. She rented a three-bedroom house located at... Oh, hang on. Let me get my little sausage fingers ready.

Okay. 1344 North Ogden Drive. Los Angeles? Yeah, I think it's LA. I also saw like West Hollywood. I don't know how that works. West Hollywood, California. Yeah, Google corrected me.

Oh, thanks a lot, Google. Oh, what a cute. There's damn trees in the way. Trees are wonderful. You want them. They provide shade. I know, but not when you're looking at Google Maps. Not when you're creeping. Street view. Yeah, cute little house. Yeah. So she- You know, this house is probably like $4 million today. Oh, it's, I'm sure. I'm sure it's very expensive. Wait, hang on. Zillow. The Zestimate, and this is, Zestimates are never totally accurate, but they give you a good idea.

Hey, Estimate is in the name, sir. So just calm down. OK. Sorry. $2.3 million home. And it's a very modest looking home. Two bed, two bath, according to this. So maybe someone did some renovations, tore down a wall. The Property Brothers came in there and smashed a wall down. Those fucking Property Brothers. Now it's a two-bedroom, two-bath. Or we're looking at the wrong house.

Anything is possible. We had a birthday dinner with your friend Katie this week. Uh-huh. And she asked, are the Property Brothers actual brothers? And it was the funniest thing. You know what, Norm? It's very rude of you to bring that up and so katie just as as an i'm sorry to you for my husband bringing up that hilarious yet embarrassing story we should plug her new podcast she started a podcast it's called

the romanticy library and it's. If you're into romance and fantasy combined. Oh, I get it now. You never understood it. No, I didn't. Norm, you helped pick the name for the podcast. No, I helped pick the theme song. Oh, okay. Yeah, Romantasy.

Got it. Yes, and she's a therapist by trade. So if you want like interviews with authors where she's talking about the books and everything but also has like a real strong knowledge and respect for mental health, go check it out. And also maybe ask her if she knows that the Property Brothers are brothers. Yes. They're not doppelgangers. They look very similar. They're actual brothers. Anyway. They're not doppelgangers. They look very similar. They're actual brothers. Anyway, once she and Fred got the house all fixed up, Lucy called her mom, Dee Dee, and, you know, as I said, she separated from Ed because he sucks.

And she called up – Shit Ed. That's right. Yeah. And she called up her grandpa, Fred Hunt, who was still struggling financially, and gave them the good news. She said, come out to California. I want you to live with me that's great yeah that'd be an exciting call to make oh she was thrilled to make it you know finally her family was going to be together again but uh-oh almost as soon as she ended that

wonderful heartfelt call the phone rang she'd been fired yeah yeah shit how'd you know i mean what else could it be christian yeah okay that's fair yeah um columbia pictures it's not gonna be publishers clearinghouse and then some bad news came you're getting more money. But what am I going to do with it all? We're giving you an alligator with no teeth. Calm down. Its mouth is taped shut. Yeah, chill. Yeah, Lucy had been fired by Columbia Pictures. I knew they were bad news. You always had a feeling, huh?

Is Columbia the torch lady? I think it is the torch lady. Hang on. Yeah, look it up. It is the torch lady i think it is the torch lady hang on yeah look it up it is the torch lady damn them for what it's worth it wasn't personal all 15 of columbia's contract players had been let go but it still sucked you feel like you finally made it and then the rugs pulled out from under you right and also you've got your grandpa and your mom coming to live with you and you've just told them, hey, don't worry about money. I've got this. What a pickle.

Lucy panicked. And I'm not laughing at her panicking. I'm laughing at my ridiculous husband for saying, what a pickle. What? Yeah. Why did you laugh at that? She isn't a pickle. She is.

You're right. You're right. Lucy panicked. Why did you laugh at that? She isn't a pickle. She is. You're right. You're right. Lucy panicked, but she still wanted her family's job. Were you imagining me looking at a penis and saying, what a pickle? Penises were the furthest thing from my mind. It's weird you brought them up. No, I'm just saying.

What a pickle. I'm saying a pickle to me seems not very serious. And to me, this is a serious situation. You're right. No more jokes. Let's do it. Okay, great. Glad to hear it. Keep your pickle out of here and your penis too, for that matter. So she still wanted her family back together, which I realized is a weird thing to say after I said something about penises. But anyway, so she calls them back and she says, hey, hey, definitely still come, but don't take the train. Take the bus. Save a little money. That's right.

Save money, live better. That's exactly what she said. Yeah. That night, a very upset Lucy went on a date with some dude. And the dude was like, hey, I know you're really sad about this. I know you're in a pickle. We're all thinking it but this random ass studio is holding auditions for showgirls maybe you should try out okay got a lead good no lucy was like no why not she didn't want to be a

showgirl she'd already been a showgirl she wanted to move up in the world she felt like she'd already paid her dues but she didn't really have any other options to say beggars can't be choosers wow okay yeah so she went and auditioned for rko pictures oh rko an old-timey movie studio wait you've actually heard of rko yeah absolutely oh well god damn it this next part's gonna sound kind of stupid i assumed everyone was just like me and had never heard of this thing and thought this of RKO? Yeah, absolutely. Oh, well, goddammit. This next part's gonna sound kind of stupid. I assumed everyone was just like me and had never heard of this thing and thought this truly was a random-ass studio. It wasn't. It was one of the big fives.

Yeah, it was a huge studio. Okay, well, I've got to say, hey, don't be Googling and about to read shit. I'm gonna tell you shit. I just thought I was gonna be telling you new shit. Instead, it's stuff that probably already everybody already knows. Okay, yeah. Inform the hoes, Kristen.

OK. RKO was a big deal. They were holding auditions for a movie that featured Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire. Ever heard of them? I've heard of Fred Astaire. I don't think I've heard of Ginger Rogers. Norman Caruso. You absolutely have heard of Ginger Rogers. Are you making that up? I don't. I've never heard of Fred Astaire. I don't think I've heard of Ginger Rogers. Norman Caruso, you absolutely have heard of Ginger Rogers.

Are you making that up? I've never heard of her. She's a huge star and also she lived in Kansas City for a while. Oh, really? Yes. That's awesome. I'm horrified by your goofy movie knowledge but your lack of Ginger Rogers knowledge. My apologies.

Did RKO Pictures do King Kong? Could you give me a fucking minute keep your pants on that's how i know about rk oh my god boy you know what i'm in a real pickle dealing with you what a pickle you know you already know so many of these facts it's like having a little crocodile on the loose chomping away chomping away at my script. Oh, is that the little fact about King Kong? Chomp. I hear they also did Citizen Kane. Chomp.

Yep. Am I doing a premature ejoculation? Well, I guess it's not a joke. It's a fact. Yeah. It's the literal script. Premature efactulation. That's not a joke. It's a fact. Yeah. It's the literal script. Premature effectulation. That's not a thing.

Anyway, Katherine Hepburn and Cary Grant both did a ton of movies for RKO. I know them. And hey, hey, alert, alert. You got a little alert? Get a load of this, folks. RKO also did two of the best known movies of all time king kong and citizen kane what what king kong i know it's the first time we're all hearing about it the only reason i know that is because i've done tons of research on the donkey kong arcade game and as you may know

nintendo was sued by universal over donkey kong because they thought it was a ripoff of King Kong. So that's the only reason I know that. I'm just explaining myself. And the only reason I know that is because I am the wife of the gaming historian. That's it. That's it. That's all I am. That's it.

I wasn't given a name at birth. I wasn't given a name at birth. Remember that article somebody put up that – because I announced that I'm only working on Gaming Historian like in my spare time now. Some video game website wrote an article about the announcement and they referred to Kristen as the wife of the Gaming Historian. Even though I specifically – your name is in my announcement. I know. By the way. though i specifically your name is in my announcement i know by the way my name is in the announcement and also not to be a dick but you're starting a podcast with your wife okay your wife already had a podcast that's right and not very successful at that i think anyone

deserves to have their name and not just some dude's wife. But like also this industry that he's going into, oh, she has experience. Anyway, I'm over it. It's fine. It happened a month ago. I'm totally cool. Tell you what. To make it even, I want everyone to refer to me for the next month as the hubby of Christine Caruso.

No, not the hubby. I hate everything. Or just hubby of christine no not the hubby i would hate or just or just hubby no i'll accept either one okay great everything is awful okay so all that to say oh this script is so stupid now here's literally what i wrote no so all that to say rko isn't a name that we know now but it was definitely a name people knew back then. Shocking. All right, great. Okay, so Lucy auditioned for the job at RKO.

And thank fucking God she got it. Lucy was thrilled. Now, this was the showgirl job? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Her mom and grandpa had to take the bus to California, but Lucy borrowed a limo and some money from a friend. So she picked up her family in a limo and took them to a fancy ass dinner.

And then she brought them to that house that she and Fred had fixed up and she told them, you'll never have to work again. That's awesome. It is awesome. And they didn't have to work again. That's awesome. It is awesome. And they didn't have to work again. They were renting this house? Yes, I believe so. It was finally happening. The family was together. And sure enough, as soon as Lucy's cousin Cleo finished high school, Lucy made sure that Cleo came out to California too. I'm not really sure what Lucy's mom, Dee Dee, did with her free time, but boy, do I know what Grandpa Fred did. Really? What did he do? Oh, my God. I love it. He sounds like the best. Okay. I mentioned in the first episode that Grandpa Fred was a bit of a

commie. A card-carrying member. Oh, yeah. He was a full-blown communist. He'd always been a friend of the working man, but losing his life savings at the age of 60 and seeing the effects of the Great Depression just got him more and more fed up with this system where the rich got richer and the poor got poorer. And Grandpa Fred wasn't the type to just sit on his ass and complain about inequality. He did something about it. Let's hear it. What did he do? Well, for starters, he went to nearby Selma Avenue and tried to convince the sex workers to unionize. What? I think that's awesome. That's pretty amazing. Yeah. And now it didn't work. So, you know, I think the other thing was Grandpared was kind of seen as just like a crusty old man so i don't know how seriously people took him but you know can you imagine like oh you're looking are you looking for a date and this old guy's like no i want you to unionize oh you're gonna love this next part even better okay okay so obviously the union didn't happen but what he would do instead sometimes is

he'd just give money to sex workers not for sex but just so that you know if they wanted to they could take the night off wow yeah that's very nice later in life when lucy was more successful and grandpa fred's health was failing lucy hired nurses to take care of him, of course. Yeah. And as these women cared for him, he'd be like, hey, you know, I don't think you're making enough money in this job for this kind of work. You should just quit and do something else. And to Lucy's great annoyance, some of the nurses were like, you're right. And they did quit.

Making this a lot harder than it needs to be, Grandpa Fred. I just love him. Yeah, that's pretty cool. I used to do the video game convention circuit with all my YouTube buddies. We would always joke about starting a union. Yeah. Because we would all get invited to like the same convention. Sure.

And so we would joke that, that hey if we formed a union one they would it would require them to invite all of us every time right and then we could demand like food and like individual hotel rooms because a lot of times they made us like bunk up together and anyway i tell you what a union of youtuber gamers would be like, we want all the Totino's pizza rolls. Okay, that's a stereotype. Very good. What else? You got Mountain Dew, Doritos.

You know you all would be so thrilled with it, though. It's a stereotype, but it holds. Not all of us, Kristen. Okay, hashtag not all gamers. Anyhow, yeah, unions are awesome. I concur. hashtag not all gamers anyhow um yeah unions are awesome i concur so all this to say grandpa fred didn't just dabble in communism he was passionate about it did he read the daily worker oh oh my god i didn't include that here but like every source is like yes he was a subscriber to the

daily worker yeah i didn't know that that was a factoid that people cared so much about. But yeah, he absolutely did. Excellent. He held receptions at Lucy's house where people could learn more about communism and decide whether they wanted to join the Communist Party. Oh. And of course, he talked endlessly to Didi and Little Fred and Lucy and Cleo about how, you know, when they registered

to vote, they should register as communists. This won't come back to bite him in any way. No, not at all. None of them were that interested in politics, but, you know, they all loved Grandpa Fred. And plus, he was not going to let this issue go anytime soon. So they all registered as communists. And I literally have in the script here, and if you think that's going to bite Lucy in the ass later, you're absolutely right. I'm sorry. Another premature effectulation. That's okay. It's a story for a future episode, though. So stay tuned. I'm about to bust.

Yeah, these factoids are just shooting out at you. Left, right, up, down. Gobs and gobs effects. Okay. The main thing was that at this time period, Lucy was working her ass off at RKO. In 1935, she signed a seven-year contract with them. Wow. That's pretty good. Well, she had also signed a seven-year contract at Columbia and look how that turned out.

But yeah. That's true. Yeah. It's weird how movie studios worked back then. Yeah. You like signed a contract with the studio and you could only make movies for that studio. It sounds terrible, honestly. It's very antiquated.

I mean it could be great. I mean if you're at a great studio, then sure. But I mean this just sounds like a ton of work. Well, it started pissing off actors and actresses because like these other studios started putting out really, really good movies. And they were winning all the awards and they were like, well, I want to make a movie for them. They're the ones that are doing all the cool shit. But they couldn't get out of their contract. So yeah, it was a bad idea.

Did this come up in a goofy movie or how do you know about this? I just know random stuff. I'm sorry. OK, so she signs the seven year contract. And even though she'd been really reluctant to even audition at RKO, it turned out to be a good move. Oh, yeah. but her ascent was slow. She got a few speaking roles here and there. That's big. Yeah, but she kind of figured out the hard way that she was not good at doing accents at all. Okay. Well, she's got that Western New

York accent. It's true. That thick Western New York accent. I really offended some Western New Yorkers by saying that in the first episode. You really messed up, Kristen. You weird talking hoes. There's a story about a movie she was in where the director, a guy named Mark Sandrich, wanted her to do a Cockney accent. Like a British? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And Lucy tried.

And she tried. And she tried. And she sucked. Okay. Lucy knew how this was going to play out. It was just a little line. She demonstrated that she wasn't any good at it. So the natural easy thing for this powerful director to do

would be to give the line to somebody else. But Mark didn't do that. No. Instead, he just let her do a more basic English accent. And that was one of the really rare times when one of the men in power gave her a little grace early on in her career. And Lucy was so grateful that like a million years later, when I Love Lucy was on the air and, you know,

she was just on the top of the world, this kid who was fresh out of the military applied for a job on her show. And he was just shocked because he got the job it was his first job in tv and he was working for the number one show on television it wasn't until much later that she explained to him that she'd always appreciated how kind his dad had been to her on that movie set all those years ago and this guy she'd hired, Jay Sandrich, was stunned because his dad had died when he was 13. He had no idea that Lucy had ever interacted with his dad. He'd always just thought he'd gotten super lucky

to have his first job on TV be the I Love Lucy show. That's a cool story. Yeah. on TV show on TV be the I Love Lucy show that's a cool story yeah and it shows that like it always pays to be kind and nice well and it I think it says a ton about her character that yeah you know well she never forgot who who helped her yeah and also I think it says something that she didn't immediately go to him and say, I'm giving you this job because of your dad. Like, he truly did not find out until much, much later why he'd gotten that job. So, yeah, that was his first job. And Jay Sandrich went on to direct the Mary Tyler Moore show.

Oh. The pilot episode of The Golden Girls. No. Yeah. No. I mean, he did a ton of shows. I'm mentioning The Golden Girls because— The pilot episode of The Golden Girls. No. Yeah. No. I mean, he did a ton of shows. I'm mentioning The Golden Girls because you love The Golden Girls. Yes.

And the pilot episode is very interesting because they had a live-in butler in the pilot. Do you remember that? No one remembers it as well as you do. You are a Golden Girls fanboy. I am. I watched it a lot growing up thanks to my mom and sister uh but yeah the the pilot episode there was like a live-in butler with uh blanche and dorothy and rose and but he he never appeared again i guess they decided

to get rid of him after the pilot tragic that's why it's a pilot you learn what works and what doesn't. Yeah. That's so cool. So he continued to work in television as a director? Yeah. And, I mean, he did great shows, including The Cosby Show. Oh. Because on this podcast, even the most heartwarming tales come with a dollop of shit.

I'm sorry. If only I had a shit sound here. It's funny because like, you know, the book. Oh, wait a minute. What? I have a new sound that might work for Bill Cosby. Oh God, what is it? Oh brother, this guy stinks.

That's, yeah, that works. Yeah. Okay, good. Yeah, that's like the nicest thing we can say about bill cosby yeah we keep this podcast classy that's right we sure do in her early years in hollywood lucy didn't have any like exciting roles she was still learning still honing her craft. And it's funny because when you read about her, you can almost sense in all of us Lucille Ball fans this desire to watch her early work and be able to say, oh, oh, look, there's that spark of genius. Or, oh, she was only on screen for a few seconds, but she was a standout. Look at her. And there's. that's hindsight though isn't it what do you mean well it's like if if you were to just watch it without knowing anything about i love lucy or her later work did she really stand out in those early roles would you have seen

her been like wow that background character was no that's what I'm saying. Yeah. She blends. Yeah. Nothing special. Right. And I'm saying like for us big Lucille Ball fans, I think there's this – we want to see that early stuff and see that spark. And it's just not there. But I would argue that it's kind of cool that it's not there. Why is that cool?

It's cool to me because she wasn't a natural star, but she was a learner and she was incredibly persistent. know, kind of rough upbringing and her really rough years in New York City taught her a hell of a lot about navigating systems that were designed to chew young women up and spit them out. So kind of trial by fire, just kind of like figured it out along the way, just jumped in feet first. Yeah. So I realize I've gone maybe a little too far in the script but i do want to say i think that especially in american culture and the the book grit goes into this i think it's called grit i hope it is otherwise i sound like an idiot i think angela duckworth wrote it i also

hope that's the name of that author anyhow Anyhow, in American society, we love natural raw talent. We love the kid who takes the standardized test and, oh, my gosh, you know, they blew it out of the water. They're a natural. We love that. Yeah, or like the athlete that can, like, throw a football over them, their mountains. Yeah, Yeah. Uh, he ate Twizzlers and 12 foot longs and yet still he threw the, I don't know what to hold you back in football. What would hold you back? I think eating 12 foot longs and Twizzlers would,

would help. Would definitely weigh you down. Okay. I don't know. It's just, you know, I feel like we don't always have the appreciation for someone who kind of sucks at first or maybe doesn't suck but it's just kind of average but works and works and works and works and gets better and better and better and is humble enough to learn from the people around them. I might disagree with you a little bit here. I think America loves an underdog. That's like an underdog story. Think about like Rudy. We do love an underdog story. Yeah.

But I think when it comes to ourselves, we want to be naturally amazing at stuff stuff especially when we're doing it for the first time oh i am that way 100 i know you are that's why i'm pointing at you really i felt like you were laser eye judging me there well i mean it's true though you and i are both like that yes yeah i mean we're like that with this podcast. Like we're starting out and we know intellectually. OK. Intellectually it's the greatest podcast ever made. We know this.

There's no question. The research is unbeaten. No. We're like we know we're starting something new. We know we're playing with the format. But I do think that part of doing anything new is like, there's going to be a learning curve. There always is. Yes. And we hate it. It's very, very rare for someone to just be instantly good at something.

Yeah. Yeah. Except in this instance, where we're instantly good at this podcast. This is one of those rare moments where our very first episode was probably the greatest podcast episode ever made. You are witnessing history here, folks. We are witnessing history. I mentioned a little bit about how I think that her experience growing up, her experiences in New York City

helped her navigate tough systems. Right. And I mention that because Hollywood then and unfortunately now was full of creeps. What do you mean? There's no, I've never heard of creeps in Hollywood, Kristen. It's shocking, but true, Norm. That turns out that Harvey Weinstein fella, bad news. If you wanted to stay in the industry, which Lucy, of course, did, and if you wanted to hone your craft, which, again, Lucy did.

Right. Then you had to learn to play the game. I think I know where this is going. Where do you think this is going? I know where this is going. Where do you think this is going? Oh, sexual harassment, inappropriate conduct from old dudes in Hollywood. Well, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, come on. I mean, duh. What? Yeah. Yeah, so prepare yourself. All right. Let me see if I can find a good sound thing for this. Well, what did you use on Bill Cosby?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, have that que use on Bill Cosby? Oh, yeah. Yeah, have that queued up, would you? Okay, I'm ready. Okay. There are a lot of stories about Samuel Goldwyn. Of Metro Goldwyn? Yeah, he's the G in MGM. Ah.

Samuel Goldwyn was this incredibly powerful film producer and studio executive. And when Lucy came to Hollywood for her very first job, she was a Goldwyn girl. As in, you know, one of the nameless pretty girls in a Samuel Goldwyn film. So this was before Columbia. The studios like changed hands and changed names. I just know she was considered a Goldwyn girl at first. That was what she was first brought out to do. Of the – when it was like we're hiring 12 ladies and she was 13.

That was with the Goldwyn. Yes. None of this is really important. I'm just trying to tell you a creepy story. So I'm all about those little details. OK. Anyway, let's hear about this huge creep. OK.

little details okay anyway let's hear about this huge creep okay he was the type of guy who would be very polite and proper in public and in private a total creep who propositioned the women who worked on his movies okay lucy often told this story about her early hollywood days when sam goldwyn who was in his 50s at the time, tried to attack her in his office. He chased her around the office and she ran out onto the street to get away from him. For real? Yeah. This was, I mean, it was an open secret that he...

Chased her? Yeah. That is... Ugh. Okay. Yeah, it's horrifying. And then she has to go back into work after this happened. I mean, I assume.

And, of course, she's under contract. This is her job. Right. Yeah, that fucking sucks. Yeah. Yeah. It's awful. I'm sharing that story because that was one of her earliest experiences in Hollywood. And I'm sure it

wasn't her only experience trying to navigate around a creepy predatory man. Yeah. But I'm bringing it up because in my opinion, one of the smartest things she did in her early days in Hollywood was choose her romantic partners wisely. Oh, okay. Tell me more. Norm. Yes? You can't always outrun the creeps, but you can get creep repellent. Is this a product we can buy or?

I wish it was. No, Norm, I'm curious. I want you to guess. What do you think is the best creep repellent a young woman can get? Hmm. And I'm not thinking in the literal sense, right? What do you mean the literal sense? Like a literal repellent. Oh, no. I'm not asking like bring a skunk into work.

Although it is a fun idea. This is my a skunk into work although it is a fun idea this is my pet skunk this is a baby alligator that has been loose in kansas city and you just don't tell the guy that the mouth has been taped shut um okay a creep repellent yeah hold on let me let me paint the picture a little better okay you are a young actress you want to stay in the industry you're an actress an actress yeah you want to stay in the industry okay i'm this big creepy man coming after you what's the best way to keep me away that's not aesthetics um say you're married. Okay, you're on the right track. It's so interesting to me.

And obviously this is a game that I'm inventing here. Yeah. But to me, the best creep repellent a young woman can get in this situation is to be with a very powerful man already, one that at least you choose. And obviously some creepy men are going to be creeps no matter what. Right. But I do think in a really sexist industry and, I mean, in a really sexist society, there are a lot of men who are not going to respect a woman's no. They're not going to respect what a woman says. But they will respect that she is with another man, that she belongs to another man.

And a powerful man, it sounds like you're saying. Yeah. Somebody known in the industry. Sure. Extra points for that. Yeah. man, it sounds like you're saying. Yeah. Somebody known in the industry. Sure. Extra points for that. Yeah. My opinion here, if you align yourself romantically with a very powerful man, you get the benefits of being with a powerful, well-connected man, which could be good for your

career. And maybe you can breathe a little easier on set. And maybe you're not the most attracted to the guy. Maybe he's not the first guy you'd pick. But if your number one goal is to become a star and provide for your entire family, then it makes sense to go for an advantageous relationship. Got it. That makes sense. And if that meant hooking up with the head of RKO Studios, then so be it. What? Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

Whoa. Hey, that would be a very powerful person I would imagine in Hollywood. Yeah. The head of RKO was this guy named Pandro Berman. Pandro was responsible for all of the hugely successful Ginger Rogers and Fred Astaire movies, although who's ever heard of her, right? Yeah, never heard of her. He was also married and – Oh, so it was an affair.

Yeah. Yeah. And he was handsome and a little older than Lucy. And everyone at RK knew that they were having an affair. How old was this man? I want to say he was like 30. He was only 30 years old and he was the head of RKO. Yeah. He was like their boy wonder or however they say that. And I might be a little wrong on his age, but he was young, but he was the one who did all the Ginger Roger and Fred Astaire movies. And those were huge at the time. So it was seen like he could do no wrong.

OK. Yeah. I mentioned all that other stuff just because sometimes when people go through Lucy's like early dating life and sometimes when people talk about any woman's dating life, if she goes for the older, more well-established man, then that can sometimes I think in the wrong hands be seen as like, oh, she's so – she slipped her way to the top. Yeah, yeah. Tale as old as time. But I think there are a lot of reasons why you might align yourself with someone more powerful and like i'm sorry you're both getting something out of it sure so everyone can suck it i always loved your uh take when we watched 90 day fiance of the it was the guy from I think California and he had a weed business. Yes.

And he brought over this hot 20-something Russian woman. Yep. She obviously bought expensive stuff and pampered herself. Yeah. And then he sat her down one day and was like, I feel like you're using me and taking advantage of me. And her response was like, aren't you doing the same thing to me? Yeah. We both get something out of this.

Basically, that's what she said. Yes. And I loved her for it. Yeah. It was a great response. And I'm sorry. A lot of people online roasted her for it. It's such bullshit.

What she said to him, boy, you didn't know this was a 90 day recap. I guess. Did you? A new Patreon tier, 90 day fiance recap podcast. No, what she said to him was something along the lines of, you wouldn't be with me if I was ugly.

Yes. You wouldn't be with me if I was fat. And yeah, we're both getting something out of this. You have this aesthetic ideal and that's why you chose me. I want to be with someone with money and that's why I chose you. Let's not lie to each other, you stupid bitch. That's right. And he is the bitch in case there's any question. Also, are you chewing on your lips a whole lot? Here, take this Carmex, sir. Wow.

Carmex. Classic lip balm. Yeah. People think we don't have a sponsor, but clearly we do. Did you just put that on your finger to apply it to your lips? Yeah. Sir, we are as one. We're a married couple.

Two become one by sharing the CarMax. Not by sex. No. We just share the CarMax. I've never been more hurt. Sorry. Next time I'll just slather it on there like some barbarian. So Lucy is having an affair with the head of RKO.

That's right, baby. And his name is? Pandro. Pandro. Which, try typing that into a Google Doc. It'll auto-correct to? Pandora every time, and it's so annoying. So that relationship elevated her and protected her.

Another relationship that elevated and protected her was her relationship with Ginger Rogers. Lucy became friends with Ginger. And since Ginger was famously always accompanied by her mother, Lila Rogers, Lucy got close to her too. May I look up a picture of Ginger Rogers? Yeah, of course. Okay. I feel like a dumb hoe for not knowing who this person is. Yeah, I don't recognize this person at all.

That's okay. Born in Independence, Missouri. Yeah. Interesting. The important thing is that you're a curious hoe, Norm. I am. Leela Rogers was really something. Bella Rogers was really something.

She was a stage mother and she only really hit pause on being a stage mother during World War I when she became one of a handful of American women to become a Marine. Ooh. Yeah. She was no joke. From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli. Is this also a Goofy movie? No, that's like the Marine theme song. It's like their fight song.

Oh, my apologies to the Marines. Much respect. Yes, the few, the proud. Okay, so tell me about that because that's fascinating to me. That's really all I've got for you. Sorry, I've got to tell you another fun fact though. Okay. She was a Christian scientist, and she loved to tell people that Ginger had once had appendicitis, and you know how she cured it? Praying? No. Ginger vomited her appendix. Appendicitis cured. Vomited out her appendix? Yep, sure did.

Yeah, that didn't happen. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, the studio execs at RKO thought that Leela was kind of a pain in the ass. But she was good at what she did. She knew film. She knew screenwriting. She knew acting. She'd coached her child to become a star. And so they asked her to

hold workshops where she could teach those skills to some of the, you know, lower tier actors at RKO. So Leela held these classes and they put on little productions. And of course, it was all voluntary, but Lucy was all in. She wanted to learn. And, you know, say what you will about Lila Rogers, but she knew how to make somebody a star and she had an eye for talent. So Lucy started participating in these little productions and got better at her craft. And, you know, again, she was hooking up with the head of the studio. Sure. But she was still a contract player. She was still kind of of nobody which is why the story i'm about to tell you could have gone so fucking wrong okay okay picture it you know lucy lucy's trying to up her game

she's trying to make it but her teeth were holding her back they were not camera ready teeth so she got them fixed but it was not a quick fix and it was not cheap. Teeth never are. It took about a year and it cost about $1,300. Inflation? Adjusted for inflation. It's about 30 grand. Very expensive. Yes. Super expensive. Yeah. And I don't like the fix, but I mean, these are old timey times. What are you going to do? Yeah, let's hear about the dentistry of the 1930s. Well, they basically gave her these porcelain caps to wear on her teeth, like little coats.

You pop on and off. Lucy got those caps. And, of course, as soon as she got them, she wanted new headshots. Because in all her previous— Got to show off those new teeth. Yeah, exactly. In all her previous headshots, she hadn't smiled. So the studio's head photographer was a guy named Ernest Bachrock, and he was a big deal.

Bachrock? I probably said that wrong. B-A-C-H-R-A-C-H. Bachra? That probably is Bachrock. B-A-C-H-R-A-C-H. Bacra? That probably is Bacrac. It's a great name. So he was a big deal. He only shot the biggest stars. And since Lucy was just a contract player, she technically should have gotten her headshots done with an assistant photographer. But Ernest told her, OK, I'll do your headshots, but you're not getting the full

experience. You'll have to pop in and get a few shots in between when I'm shooting the actual stars. And Lucy was like, absolutely. Sounds good. So that day she got to the studio early. She went to the head makeup artist, a guy named Mel Burns, and said, please, please, please, please, please do my makeup. I'm getting new headshots today. They're really important. Gotta be looking good. And he was just like, ugh, no, I'm doing Katharine Hepburn's makeup today. But of course, you know, Lucy begged, and so he agreed.

But he wasn't happy about it. Mel applied her foundation, and he was starting to work on her eyes when all of a sudden Catherine Hepburn showed up. And so Mel told Lucy, OK, you need to get out of here. You know, I need to do her makeup. And, you know, that was understood. Probably a little more important. Yeah. Well, yeah.

And that had been the arrangement. He would he had basically been like, OK, I will get started. But the second she shows up, you got to go. You gots to go. So Lucy did as she was told she left the makeup room and mel shut the door behind her and he locked it and as soon as mel locked that door lucy realized holy shit i left my caps in the makeup room oh no her teeth caps yes her coat teeth coats her tooth coats so she knocked on the door and she's like excuse me excuse me i'm really sorry please open the door i left my caps in there and i need them for my headshots and mel was totally unsympathetic told her to go away

come on dude yeah can't just hand her the caps. Exactly. Or let her come in for like 10 seconds and get them. Yeah. Okay. So you are exactly on the right track. She's like, please, please, please. I know exactly where they are. They're in a little cup. I can be in and out in no time. You could hand them to me. Again, Mel's being

a dick. Says no. Lucy was distraught. She flagged down a hairdresser. She told him the story and the hairdresser felt bad for her so he's like okay i'll i'll see what i can do but once again this asshole makeup artist was like no go away oh brother this guy stinks boy that's really coming in handy it It is. I like that one. The makeup room had this little like pass-through window. Like a drive-thru?

Exactly like a drive-thru. Thank you, Norm. I think it was a little smaller than like a drive-thru window. Okay. So it was open and Lucy went to that window and she tried pleading once again. And once again, Mel told her no and he went right back to applying Catherine Hepburn's makeup. And that, my dear, was the last straw.

Lucy always had a temper, and that man had set it off. Yeah, well, yeah. That would piss me off, too. Uh-huh. So she reached in through the open window, grabbed the first thing she saw it was a cup of coffee and she launched it at say i am ruined ruined katherine was pissed

yeah getting hit by a cup of coffee that's um yeah she got up dripping in coffee and went home for the day oh so they lost a day of shooting see i love that this is exactly where your mind goes you understand how big a deal this is so the studios oh yeah studio lost money yep yeah this was bad it was a scandal uh now can uh can uh pandora save lucille Now can Pandora save Lucille? Let's see, shall we? Yeah, bottom line, Lucy had just thrown a very expensive temper tantrum. She immediately went on this apology tour.

She's telling people the story. She's sobbing, you know, just, oh, I'm so sorry. sorry now it's pretty widely believed that if any other contract player had doused katherine hepburn and coffee they would have been fired no question right i mean even i know who katherine hepburn is yes and i'm an idiot stop it you are not but lucy wasn't just anyone. She was the woman who was having the affair with the head of the studio. And also she was BFFs with Lila and Ginger Rogers. So they stood up for her. Good. And luckily, Catherine Hepburn kind of liked Lucy. So around lunchtime that day, Catherine came back to work and she apologized to Lucy for overreacting. OK, well, I don't know if that was necessary, but. OK, well, I would argue that that maybe it is when you're the star.

No, don't make that face at me when you're the star and you've got all this money riding on you showing up and delivering your lines. OK. Obviously, Lucy did a shitty thing. And, yeah, she doesn't need to apologize to Lucy. But I do think that leaving for the day, that's a little extreme. But why apologize to Lucy for that? There's nothing to do with that. Well, that's her being the bigger person I think.

And I think it's also like if she comes in and Lucy is sobbing. She's a wreck. She thinks she's just ruined her whole career over this. Then, yeah, you be the bigger person and you say, hey, don't worry about it. I'm sorry. I overreacted it's cool okay it's a classy move it is very classy just like this podcast thank you yes i try my best to bring class and dignity to everything i do yeah you are looking stunning Oh my god, thank you. And I am wearing a t-shirt with a cat spread out with the caption, not today.

This is why you pay for the video, folks. This is why you get on that $10 tier so you can see the latest fashion. Yeah, I am wearing a pretty nice little sweater top. fashion yeah i am wearing a pretty nice little sweater top um and norm's wearing uh a real gem from tj maxx yes saw it knew i had to have it this story became legendary partly i think because it's funny and it seems a little like something lucy ricardo might do of like get so worked up. She does something really stupid and how do I get out of it? You know, I didn't even think about that. Yeah, that is very like.

I didn't think of it either until like this morning. That's like so on character for Lucy Ricardo. Yeah. And in the end, everything turns out OK. I was thinking after you told me about that story that, oh, wouldn't it be so cool if they – if Katharine Hepburn and Lucille Ball like became like best buddies later in life and they were like, oh, remember when I accidentally threw coffee on you? But it sounds like they made up that day. Yeah, and I – it's funny. I'm not as far in the research. So stuff about her later life, I don't know.

But I do think there was definitely some kind of friendship there or at least mutual respect. I don't know. The other thing that stands out to me about this story is that it's just proof that Lucy was doing a really good job making connections with people who would have her back when she screwed up. when she screwed up. Eventually, Lucy and Pandro broke up, and in 1937, when she was 26 years old, she started dating a guy named Al Hall. Al Hall.

Al was a 43-year-old director at Paramount. Was his middle name Coe? That's so stupid. Al Coe. You know, that's kind of the George Glass, like a more adult George Glass. Yeah. Yeah, I have a boyfriend. His name is Al Coe Hall. Yeah, you're like looking around the room thinking of a name and someone has a glass of vodka and vodka and you're like his name's al-co-hall yes alcohol this really is a brilliant podcast it truly is yeah you know

sometimes when people don't give you the compliments you have to give them to yourself isn't it incredible that we made the top ten of the history category? It truly is. We're talking about dumb shit like this. Anyway. We're dragging the whole category down. Yeah. No one respects history podcasts anymore. Thanks to us.

So tell me about Al Cohall. He directed Little Miss Marker, which made Shirley Temple a star. Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Marker, which made Shirley Temple a star. Little Miss, Little Miss, Little Miss Marker. Okay. Shirley Temple. I know that name. You sure do. So does everyone.

And so did everyone. And that's why Al Hall was a big deal. How old was Al Hall? 43. Lucy was 26. It's disgusting. We hate it. I was going to ask 43. Lucy was 26. It's disgusting. We hate it. I was going to ask how you felt. Yeah.

Again, I think this is kind of what I already said of like I think she's in these advantageous romantic relationships. Right. To me, it's way more strategic than it is romantic. But again, if they're both getting something out of it. Yeah. I'm all for it. Sure. I think so often in these situations, the younger person isn't getting anything out of it. And, you know, who knows? I might eventually learn more about this relationship and become disgusted and totally retract everything I'm saying. But he's with this young, pretty girl and she's with this older, very powerful guy who is very well connected. And by all accounts, I don't think they really had much sex. So, you know, everybody's happy. Kristen, what are you getting out of our relationship?

That's a great question. Oh. Excuse me. I have to go. No comment. No, I love our relationship. Oh, that's sweet. I also love our relationship.

There we go. Very good. Okay. So Al does not sound like the most charming guy. I'm not a fan. I'm debating telling a story. Can you tell I'm debating telling a story? Let's hear it.

What's the holdup? Because it's – We can always cut it if it's bad. Okay. We can always cut it if it's bad. Well, first of all, Kathleen Brady in her book about Lucille Ball's life has a lot of amazing anecdotes and stories. And so obviously I'm not including everything. One that she had about Al Hall that I did not include. So he's directing this movie. And I guess there was a scene where a black man would spit in another black man's face and i guess someone

fairly high up on set was like hey do we really need to do that like that just seems like it's in poor taste and al hall's response was basically well what's the problem? It's N-word against N-word. And obviously he didn't censor himself. I understand that. Yeah. That's what would make it offensive. That would be the weirdest part. Yeah. So that's just a fun story about him.

He sucks. Yeah. Yeah. But he had some good friends and because they were all his peers, they were established in their careers and really willing to root for this young aspiring actress. Over the years, Lucy got better and better roles, but none of her movies were like showstoppers. None of them were huge successes. And frankly, in a lot of them, she still wasn't really shining. Can we hear about some of the movies?

Do you have the names of the movies? We will eventually. Okay. Right now, what I need you to understand is that this doesn't matter. Because by 1938, she was making $1,000 a week. Adjusted for inflation, $22,000 a week adjusted for inflation. Who? $22,000 a week.

Very expensive. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah. So she became known as the queen of the bees, as in she was the queen of bee movies. Bee movie? No. Not the Jerry Seinfeld one.

No, we're talking like, you know, these are not the A movies. These are not the jerry sign no we're talking like you know these are not the a movies these are not the blockbusters these are not the ones with the big stars you're talking the letter b yes okay these are the wasps movies i've been i just watched unfrost, and so I've been thinking about B-movie a lot. You've had B-movie on the brain. Yeah. Yeah. Jerry Seinfeld films. No. They're something else.

This is no buzz buzz. This is Lucy is Queen of the B-movies. Okay. So kind of a lower quality movie. Oh, definitely lower quality. Yeah. Yeah. But she was financially stable.

She had friends in high places. she was surrounded by her family critics saw her talent but they rightly pointed out that her talent wasn't being showcased well in these poorly written slapped together b movies fun fact critics also didn't like b movie they didn't have you ever when's the last time you watched Bee Movie? I never watched Bee Movie. OK. There's a lot of things in Bee Movie that are strange. Starting with the premise. Well, the biggest thing with Bee Movie is basically Renee Zellweger who plays the florist and Barry B. Bensonry b benson okay the b played by jerry seinfeld there's like

this weird sexual i hate it no i hate it i hate do i need to continue you can but i just want to say i fucking hate in cartoons where the human woman falls for like the dog goes on a date you're referring to family guy i sure am i think it's fucking gross and weird and also i don't think they have men do this do they i mean if they do i don't like that either i just think it's fucking weird so anyway renee zellweger bangs a bee is that what well don't actually fuck, but like there is this like weird sexual undertones. The other weird thing is the bees drive cars. Why don't they just fly? In the hot.

Exactly. Why do the bees drive cars? There's a lot of weird stuff with that movie. But you are right. Critics weren't huge fans of Bee Movie. Were you a fan of Bee Movie? I thought it was okay. You wanted Renee to bang the bee, didn't you?

No. You were like, let's see how it goes. I i thought it was okay you wanted renee to bang the b didn't you no i you're like let's see i always thought that was strange anyway enough about b-movie we don't need to talk about b-movie i oh no oh we won't talk about no please i want to know more about b-movie no i want it well when when you talked about like the female woman like falling in love with like the animal character. Yes, yes. It reminded me as a kid that like I found some cartoon characters very attractive. Oh, sure. So like Lola Bunny from Space Jam.

I was like, man, she's so hot. Yeah. It was a bunny. But they made her like sexy. Robin Hood from the cartoon. The Disney Robin Hood. Yeah. Holy shit.

I enjoyed Friar Tuck in that movie. I was more of a Friar Tuck guy. Sure, sure. It was the haircut, wasn't it? What about Naya from The Lion King? Yeah, she's beautiful. Yeah, remember when they bang in that movie? Did they bang in that? Oh my

God. When they play Can You Feel the Love Tonight? They fuck. Oh! Oh, I didn't realize that was what they were doing. What? Kristen! It's been I mean, I saw it as a kid. I didn't get it. It went straight over my head. I'm going to add the video clip to the video version of this podcast so everyone else can see Naya looking into Simba's eyes as he mounts her.

No, they don't show that. Give me a break. Simba doesn't mount her. She's laying in like on top of this like bush on her back. Well they roll around right? We'll roll the clip. Man an innocent young Kristen did not know what she was watching there.

It was like I was watching two lions hug. They're just hugging. Or wrestle. Yeah. It never even occurred to me that Can You Feel the Love Tonight was about lovemaking. It was sexy times. Ew.

Thank you for that. Anyway, enough about B-movie. Enough about cartoon characters that are sexually attractive. Let's get back to Lucille Ball and her B-movies. Oh, thank you, Norm, for keeping us on track. Got to. Someone said that they kind of wish that the first Lucille Ball episode we did was a little longer. This one's guaranteed to be longer just because we've talked so much about B-movie.

So, you know, critics are spotting her talent. They're rightly saying it's not being utilized in these shitty movies another kind of fun fact about this period is that she was occasionally teamed up with really big comedians who were men like who uh the three stooges that's big and the marks brothers and carl marks no Marks? No. Oh, wait. He was definitely dead by then. And also not a comedian. And also, boy. Yeah, he wasn't a comedian. Very serious man.

You're trying to be like, well, he said some funny things. Workers unite. That's hilarious. If you're looking for a fun story about male comedians teaming up with a future comedy star for an amazing, hilarious movie, Norm, you're about to be devastated. Okay, so picture it. Around this time, Lucy did a movie called Room Service. Okay. And it was a big deal because it starred the Marx Brothers, who had their brother Carl right there.

And they were comedy legends. What those assholes didn't know was that their best work was behind them so they can suck on that. But anyway, they did this movie and unlike all of their previous work, they didn't have a lot of control over the process. This was the first thing they did that wasn't written specifically for them. Okay. And that made them a little mad. And they got especially mad one day when they found out that there would be visitors on set, when they'd specifically asked for a closed set.

Who were the visitors? Just random, you know, it wasn't like an audience, but, you know, I guess people maybe had family there or friends, you know, whatever. It was an outrage. So what did the Marx Brothers do, Norm? They quit. Nope. They waited for a scene where they were supposed to chase Lucille Ball.

According to the script, she would run into a room, shut the door and keep running. And the Marx Brothers would burst in after her and keep chasing her. Well, that day on set, as a hilarious prank designed to shock everyone, they got completely naked. Oh. So surprise to all the visitors and to Lucille Ball, she was now being chased around by naked men at her job. Yeah, that's the creep alert. That is the new creep alert. What the fuck?

Later in life, when Lucille Ball was a huge success and Groucho Marx was just a douchey has-been, he was asked about the movie that he and his brothers did with Lucy. Yeah. And the interviewer gave him this total softball question. Like, hey, you know, did you see her comedy potential when you did that movie with her? That's kind of exciting. Yeah. And he said, I've never found Lucille Ball to be funny on her own. She always needed a script.

What a fucking douchebag. Karl Marx would have never done stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. And he would have gotten along great with Grandpa Fred. He really would have. Yeah. No, isn't that not the most obnoxious thing? The other thing.

That's just an asshole. Yeah. He's just being an asshole. Yeah. Mm hmm. Jealous. That's jealousy, too, I bet. Oh, it's absolutely jealousy.

The other story that I didn't include in here was she did do a movie with the Three Stooges. And later in life, you know, we all want to make these connections like, okay, well, where did she learn her comedy from? Well, gosh, she did the movie with the Marx Brothers. Maybe she learned from them. No, they were assholes. Maybe she learned from the Three Stooges. No, when asked what she learned from the Three Stooges,

she was like, I learned that it hurts when you get seltzer water up your nose which to me says they were dicks too i should say she actually did like one of the marks brothers he was like kind of a normal guy very polite to her and so when i love lucy was a huge success she invited him on the show to play himself and kind of i think he played himself but anyway he having him on the show reintroduced his comedy to a whole new audience a much bigger audience and so i think maybe groucho was also a little pissed about that because she only invited one of them she did not invite all of them.

I was going to ask how Groucho felt about that. I think he was a bit of a Groucho. Yeah. Yeah. So Lucy was doing her thing, enjoying her life, when she landed a role in the film Dance Girl Dance.

Ooh. Have you heard of this movie? No. Okay. I hadn't either, and I'm jumping ahead a little bit because i'm talking about the filming of the movie and now i'm going to talk about you know whatever anyway jumping ahead this movie when it came out everyone hated it audiences hated it critics hated it everyone thought it just fucking sucked but the cool thing about this movie to me is that it became a cult classic in the 1970s

as like this wonderful feminist film. In it, Lucy is a burlesque dancer and I can't remember the name of the other actress, but like she's the more, you know, serious dancer dancer and it's kind of – it was directed by a woman. It was written by a woman. It was edited by a guy who became a huge success like immediately afterward. I want to say he immediately afterward went and did Citizen Kane. I could be wrong on that. Now, how does Dance Girl Dance compare to other dance films such as save the last dance shall we dance cats don't dance cats don't dance is a film you just made up

are you kidding kristin are you kidding cats don't dance that's not a real movie, is it? Yes, it is. I'm Googling it. Look it up. It's an animated film from the 90s. Oh, my God. Cats Don't Dance came out in 1997. It was an hour and 15 minutes. Yeah, and it's a great film. Well, it does have a 71% on Rotten Tomatoes. Yeah, it's good. Okay. I'm very sorry. Yeah, it's good. Okay.

I'm very sorry. Nothing's going to stop us. Nothing's going to stop us now. Wow. That's like the ending musical number. I apologize to all the Cats Don't Dance fans out there. The Redwall fans rose up. Uh-huh.

I need the Cats Don't Dance fans to rise up we will attack kristin and take her down we're gonna cancel you i think that's the only i'm gonna get canceled for not knowing about cats don't dance yes it would be so wonderful if that was the only cancellation that actually stuck that's right okay so they're filming dance girl dance and toward the end of the movie the script called for lucy and the other actress to get into this wild physical fight and it just sounds so fun and so awesome and they both committed to like really go for it and on the day that they shot that fight scene they charged people to come watch and you know like donated the money to charity okay so you know they had a super fun time on set but obviously when they broke for lunch they went to

the commissary and lucy looked like shit her costume was torn her makeup was done to look like she had a black eye yeah her hair was a mess they just did a pretend fight so right yeah well and i mean not that they actually hurt each other. But I mean they really did go for it. Sure. Tried to make it look real. So when she was in the commissary, she spotted this guy, George Abbott. He was the director of her next film.

So Lucy went over to say hi, again, looking like an absolute mess. Lucy went over to say hi, again, looking like an absolute mess. And while she was there at the table, George introduced her to the guy who would also be in that upcoming movie. And that man? Desi Arnaz. Albert Einstein. No! Say that again? Desi Arnaz? Yes. Ever heard of him?

Albert Einstein's close friend. I've heard of Albert Einstein. Uh-huh. Desi Arnaz of – well, he was in I Love Lucy too. Norm, he was her real-life husband. That's right. Oh, my God. Right.

How do you know about Cats Don't Dance, but you don't know who Desi is? I didn't know who Ginger Rogers was either. My God. I appreciate you being here along for the ride, my darling. Yeah. I'm learning so much. Well, this is kind of the fun thing about this podcast is you pick whatever topic you want. I pick whatever topic I want.

And boy, are our interests different. Yes. As long as it happened in the past. And as long as we can connect it to slavery somehow. No, goddammit. We almost had an episode where slavery wasn't even mentioned. That was this episode right here, but you had to mention it, didn't you? Got to keep the streak alive. One day. alive one day i actually so i only just recently found out that lucy and desi were married in real

life well did you find out when i told you in our first episode no it was when we watched the movie be i think it's called being the ricardos oh yeah kidman uh-huh and javier Bardem. I legit did not know they were actually married in real life until we saw that movie. Just goes to show some of us were obsessed with Lucille Ball and some of us watched Cats Don't Dance. Yes. Bingo. Okay. So she meets Desi. And it's hard to know what really happened in that moment.

Some people say that there was this immediate spark between Lucy and Desi. This immediate, undeniable attraction. Yeah. that look that lucy looked so rough and beat up at their first meeting that when he saw her later that day he didn't realize he was looking at the woman he'd met at lunch because she looked yeah much different personally i think he's full of shit i think that's just a funny story to be like what no i i didn't even know but let's talk okay i feel like we've been talking for the past hour and 38 minutes. Wow. I paused for just a second and you just jumped in like a bee in a car. Excellent reference to Bee Movie.

Norm, let's talk about Desiderio Alberto Arnaz Ideacha III. Okay. Very good. Don't even ask me to try to say that. It's a beautiful name. It's so fun to say. Desiderio. Desiderio.

If you think Lucy's childhood was interesting, wait till you hear about Desi's. This is fucking ridiculous. Okay. Hold on to your hat. Cuban, right? That's right. Okay. Wow, you do know some things about this yeah i know okay okay so unlike lucy who grew up poor desi grew up in cuba specifically in santiago de cuba and his family was rich his dad was the fucking mayor. Okay.

I do remember that. His dad was the mayor. How do you remember? Okay. From the movie, being the Ricardos. Okay. All right. I'm sorry.

I just can't believe you didn't remember his name, Desi Arnaz, but you remembered that his dad was the mayor. Yes. Okay. His grandpa had also been the mayor. His uncle was the chief of police. Long line of mayors in this family. His grandfather on his mom's side was a big wig at Bacardi Rum. Bacardi?

That's right. Wow. Desi grew up with a level of privilege that few people can even fathom. His family had a beautiful home. They had three ranches, a beach house, because of course, why not? I think one of the things about Desi's upbringing that is going to play a huge role in future episodes on this story is that Desi came from a social class where it was absolutely expected that a married man would cheat on his wife.

The men in his family, all of them, had the big house. That's where you had your wife and your kids. And then they had la casa chica, the little house. And that's where you had your second family with your mistress and all your other kids. Yeah, my second family's in the garage. I'm going to go see them after we record. Desi's grandfather had seven children with his wife and another set of seven children with his mistress. Wow.

How rich do you have to be to support 14 children and two wives? Imagine going out for sushi with the whole clan. That bill would be ridiculous. Insane. I've often wondered, though, are we the only people

who spend, like, an absurd amount of money going to sushi? Do other people just get one roll a piece i don't know i i've got to do minimum three rolls yeah let us know history history hoes are we being gluttonous should that be our homework tell us how many sushi rolls you order history history ho work this week please uh report to us how many sushi rolls you order when you go to your local sushi watering hole.

Very good. So that's the – that was Desi's upbringing. That's what it looked like to be a married man. OK. And he truly believed that his mom and his dad's mistress were just totally cool, very happy with this arrangement. And boy, it's hard for me to say something without judgment, but that's what I just did. Didn't I do a great job? Not really.

I feel like you're like rumbling inside. You're about to bust. I'm about to bust. Well, it's – Is it bothering you? Here's the thing. If it's an open marriage, it's – Is it bothering you? Here's the thing. If it's an open marriage, it's an open marriage. But I don't think it's really that because I doubt that the women were allowed to go like have their own La Casa Chica.

Yeah, a little pool boy, pool cabana boy. Yeah, the more men sounds exhausting and terrible. So maybe they were happy, honestly. Yeah. When he was 15, Desi's favorite uncle took him to a brothel so that Desi could lose his virginity to a professional. A professional. That's a fun spin on that. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it.

I mean, honestly, I don't think it's that bad. Lose it to a pro. I'm trying to get with a pro here. Yeah, I like that. Spoiler alert. You know, sometimes you try a new thing when you're really young and you enjoy it for the rest of your life. That was Desi's experience with brothels. So he was a repeat customer.

Hell yeah. Had a punch card at the brothel. Hell yeah. 10th session free with an ice cream sundae. OK, you joke, but he actually did get some free sessions at brothels. Oh, so he did have a punch card. In a way, yes. I remember there was a show on HBO for the adults about the Bunny Ranch.

Yeah, back in the day. And I remember there was a segment where, yeah, it was an 18-year-old kid who wanted to lose his virginity so he went to the bunny ranch. And I remember watching that as a teenager and being like, I wonder if that'll be me

one day. Going to the bunny ranch. Yeah. Yeah. He had a great time well i bet he did honestly yeah it's funny this is now the second episode where we've talked about sex work and how it really just should be legal everywhere it's so ridiculous i agree i really don't think it's such a bad idea to go lose it to a professional let's legalize it let's regulate. Let's make it way safer for everybody. Okay, let's do it, Norm. Well, you and me. Let's do it. Start charging each other for sex. That's the ticket. Yeah. I'm very cheap.

Really? Yep. Part of what makes Desi's childhood so fascinating to me is that until the age of 16 he had this idyllic incredibly privileged life and his life was just mapped out for him his dad like just knew that one day desi would be a lawyer and his dad had also studied in the united states so he was like yep desi's to do the same thing. He's going to go to the University of Notre Dame. Wow, Notre Dame. Yeah, he had it all planned out. A big Catholic school.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's all planned. But in August of 1933, everything changed. The story goes that 16-year-old Desi was playing cards with a friend when all of a sudden he just got this weird feeling. Something was wrong. He said, I need to go home. So Desi went home, but there was nothing wrong.

Everything was fine. And then the phone rang. It was his uncle. His uncle told him, get your mom and get out of the house. They're coming after you. And Desi said, who's coming after us? And his uncle told him as quickly as he possibly could that the Machado regime was over. Gerardo Machado was no longer in power. He'd fled the country. And now anyone who had been part of that political system, like Desi's dad, the mayor, was in danger.

Was the – what type of government was the Machado regime? Was it a dictatorship? Well, it's interesting you bring that up. OK. OK, so when he came into power, he was very popular, seemed like everyone was really happy with him. And he one of his big things was like, I'm just going to do one term. I only want to do one term. That's all I want to do is just this one term. But then, you know, the first term's up and he goes for a second term.

People start getting mad. And he's like, how about we get rid of some of that free speech? And how about I tell the police to go be dickheads? And so then, you know. You want to see a man's true character, give him power. Oh. I made that quote up. It was me.

Wow. Amazing. Desi's just gotten this scary phone call from his uncle. He hung up the phone He looks out the window And he saw it Several blocks away, off in the distance A mob of hundreds of people were tearing through the street toward his home

Desi and his mom, Lolita, grabbed what they could Money, a gun, and they just took off. Get the fuck out of there. Yep. And in an instant, everything that he had ever known, every material possession, the social hierarchy where he was on top, everything was done. Later, when he tried to go back to the house,

he found that it had been burned. In fact, everything his family owned had been destroyed. Even the horses at their ranches had been taken to a cemetery and shot and buried. Okay, well that seems unnecessary. I agree, but I guess I don't know what the folks were dealing with. Unless the horses had positions of power in the government as well. This is my secretariat of war. That was so – oh, that was pretty good.

That was pretty good. Thank you. His family survived, but they had nothing left, and they knew they needed to escape. To America? Well, I mean, eventually, yeah. But for now, it's just can we get to a different city where maybe we're not recognized as easily as having been part of the system that everyone wants to overthrow? Become guy incognito. Darn right.

Yeah. Get that Norman Caruso look, that real generic white guy look. Yep. Take it from me. White guy, brown hair, glasses. You'll blend right in. You can commit any crime and get away with it. Where's Waldo?

He might be right here in this podcasting studio. Yep. So Desi, Lolita, along with a cousin and an uncle disguised themselves as revolutionaries and made the long drive to Havana. Lolita, along with a cousin and an uncle, disguised themselves as revolutionaries and made the long drive to Havana. Anytime they saw anybody, just to be safe, Desi and his cousin would kind of lean out the window and be like, Viva la revolución! Viva la revolución!

Desi's dad was imprisoned for six months, and afterward he fled fled to Miami and soon Desi joined him there. Welcome to Miami. Bienvenido a Miami. That's what was playing as they arrived. Yeah. Fun fact, I'm a huge fan of the Miami Dolphins. It's true. That's not really a fun fact.

No one gives a shit. It's a sad fact for Norm. He watches all the games in what we refer to as the basement of shame. I do. The basement of shame, home of the Miami Dolphins. Yeah. Norm likes to say that they can't hurt him down there, and yet they do hurt him. Greatly.

With every loss. I'm kind of numb to it now, honestly. I love how much you love the Dolphins. Oh, why? It's character building for a man to root for a sports team that isn't very good. Is it? I think so. I've learned that if you lower your expectations for your favorite team, you'll never be disappointed.

Wow. And so I just go in every game thinking, well, they're probably going to lose. And then, you know, when they win, it's a nice, fun surprise. Anyway. So the plan was that Desi and his dad would go there, plant some roots, make some money, and eventually bring Lolita to Miami too. But that turned out to be incredibly difficult. Desi and his dad couldn't afford a decent place to call home.

So they slept in a warehouse and it was full of rats and also tiles because his dad was trying to sell tile. The rats could be – were they like the fun rats? These are not cartoon. No, these are not cartoon rats, Norm. They're real ass rats. They're real rats. Trying to gnaw your ears off and dragging pizza slices through the subway.

Did you ever see that video? Everyone did. Yeah, great video. So Desi's dad has this job trying to sell tiles. And Desi got a job cleaning bird cages for, quote, a man selling canaries on consignment, which is the weirdest thing I'd ever read. On consignment? Yeah.

Selling canaries on consignment. So people come to him with their canaries and saying, sell this and I get a percentage. That is bizarre. Or maybe it's like if nobody buys it, then I can have it back. But also, I guess you're hanging on to it. Very weird. That is, okay.

I can understand like clothing consignment stores. Yeah, we've all heard of that. Specifically canaries, not just any bird. So calm down. We've got the latest in ladies fashion and we've also got birds. Don't mind the canaries. Don't mind the smell. Shitting and singing.

Desi enrolled in school, but he didn't speak English. So that was obviously a huge challenge. Yeah, it's a huge challenge. Are you ready for a weird fun fact? As long as it's better than my Miami Dolphins fun fact, sure. It absolutely is. Okay. Okay.

Guess who was Desi's BFF at his high school in Miami? Hmm. The son of an infamous man. Infamous? Yes. Al Capone's son? Yes! Good job, Norm norm are you serious yes well done yeah well i know al capone lived in miami oh wow so you said infamous i was like yeah al capone jr and desi arnaz bffs that's cool yeah um it doesn't really affect the story in any way, but it is cool.

Well, that is a fun fact. Yep. So as soon as Desi and his dad had the money to get out of the warehouse, Lolita joined them in Miami. But in fairness, I cannot imagine going from being the mayor and having the best of everything. And then all of a sudden you're living, I mean, I'm assuming like a very lower middle class lifestyle in Miami. You've got like no social standing. It was tough. You go from the top to the bottom.

Yeah. Yeah. And Desi's dad began divorce proceedings pretty quickly. He moved in with another woman and put a notice in the local newspaper that he had no idea where his wife was. So, you know, he just needed that divorce. Why are you making that face? Why did he divorce? I mean, there are a lot of theories. Why did he divorce? I mean, there are a lot of theories.

So part of it to me is like, OK, in this other lifestyle that they'd lived, he had his wife and he had this other little house with his mistress where he could just get away whenever he wanted. And now in America, he's got no power. away whenever he wanted and now in america he's got no power he's got this one house where he's supposed to live with his wife all the time yeah part of me feels like divorcing your wife finding someone new maybe that's a way to reclaim some power maybe it's a way to feel more in control of your circumstances. Does that make sense? Sorry, refresh. Lolita was not in Miami. No, she was in Miami. She was. Which makes it all the more shitty

when he put that thing in the newspaper being like, I don't know where she is. Yeah, he just sounds like a shithead then. Well, yeah. I mean, I guess if he wasn't in love anymore then i mean people get divorced so sure i don't know why i'm being so judgy about this i do think that's pretty fucked up someone she's come to a new country herself and you know i doubt women

were able to find work really easily well yeah, yeah, and that puts her in a probably tough position. Yes. Yeah. And it puts her son in the position where he now feels – tell me if this sounds a little familiar – completely financially responsible for his mother. OK. So he and Lucy are about to have a lot in common in that respect. I see. Yeah.

Lolita was a really interesting person to me. You know, obviously she'd had that lifestyle where her husband was going off with the mistress and stuff, but she was kind of from that mindset of women are not better than men, but like more morally pure than men. So, yeah, he's going to fuck up. But you know what? That's just that's just the way it goes. That's just the way men are. And so, like, you know, maybe there was an element of I'm at peace with this because my expectations are low.

Like I'm a Miami Dolphins fan. Exactly. Perfect. I completely understand now. But the funny thing is, so he divorces her. She never acknowledged it, never took off her wedding ring for the rest of her life. So did she never remarried? Nope. Huh.

Because it didn't happen. Okay. Later in life, Desi got really mad at his mom one time because, you know, he hated his dad for this. Absolutely hated his dad. She sounds like a gem because she actually really tried to get him to forgive his dad. And eventually that did happen because she really pushed for it and was just like, you know, it's fine. Please, you know, have a relationship with your father. But Desi said to his mom, basically, you know, you're at fault.

You're to blame for his shitty behavior because you always treated him like a king no matter what. You always treated him like a king. And she responded to him by saying, treating him like a king enabled me to be the queen. That's very powerful. Isn't that wild? Yeah. That's very powerful. Isn't that wild? Yeah. That's really incredible. And applicable to so many things other than marriage.

Like being good to people who are being shitty to you allows you to be the queen and the heir to Bacardi rum. Yes. That's the thing we'll take away from that. Don't you agree? Yes. So at this point in time, young Desi is super pissed at his dad. He's very protective of his mother.

of his mother. And even though the odds were stacked against him, it didn't take long for Desi to kind of get the ball rolling on a lifestyle where he could take care of himself and take care of his mother. So before I tell you what happens next, you just have to know that Desi was incredibly handsome in this very specific way that I think was very important to his success. Okay. He was, first of all, duh, handsome, yes. But he had this like boyish, non-threatening charm. Oh. Non-threatening is honestly, now he was kind of a threatening boy,

as we'll find out later, but he had the non-threatening look. He had this very sweet look about him, very boyish, but also super fucking hot and charming as he could be. So that's what you have to keep in mind. Also, he'd always loved music. So in addition to cleaning bird cages for the consignment canaries. The bird consignment store. He also joined a band. And he was good.

There was no denying it. He was a next level entertainer. What did he play in the band? He did a lot. He played guitar. But, you know. Multi-instrumental. Yeah.

He was multi-talented for sure. Cool. Okay. Now I've got to say something because this was wild to me. Okay. In Kathleen Brady's book, she talks about how Desi wasn't a very good singer. She wrote, quote, he had only a passable singing voice. Now I have to pause here and talk about that because it blew my mind.

I have been watching I Love Lucy since i was a little kid many of those episodes feature desi singing i have watched so much footage of desi singing just as part of this deep dive right and i am telling you norman. Reading that part of that book stunned me because it's true. She said it. I thought about it and I realized, holy shit, how am I just now realizing that Desi was not a very good singer? I'm bringing this up only because I've been watching this guy perform my whole life. It's never even occurred to me that he's not that good a singer. And I think that a huge reason for that is that I have only ever seen him perform. Seeing him perform is what sells it. So if you just heard audio, you'd be like, oh, this is rough.

I mean, it's exactly how she said it. He had a passable singing voice. Nothing fucking special. Let me tell you that. Nothing special. Would he get through Paula, Abdul, and Simon Cowell on American Idol? Maybe because you're performing. That's my thing is you see him.

Gotcha. He is so confident. He's so energetic. He's so handsome. You can watch this man perform and not even realize his shortcomings, which again, I was sitting downstairs in the living room when I read that line and I was like, oh my God. So he tricked you too. So he's an entertainer.

He's an incredible entertainer. Yeah. And what drives me nuts is that a lot of people refer to him as lucky, particularly when they talk about these next few years of his life. Oh, he got a lucky break. Yeah. And obviously there's some luck involved in everything, including bad luck. You know, it just happens. But Desi was highly intelligent.

He was a risk taker. He was a gambler. He was a master negotiator. He oozed charm. And I think this is no small thing. He believed that he was destined for great things because he'd been brought up that way for 16 years. The first 16 years of his life were just all privilege right and then yeah and then boom it goes away it's funny we talk about like people who don't vote according to their actual interests uh-huh and you know the theory on that is sometimes that like it's like some people think that they are just like temporarily down on their luck billionaires and oh yeah and so they're they're going to vote in the billionaire's interest because they think well i'm going to be that one day yeah they somehow confuse themselves and think that they have more in common with a billionaire

than they do with the guy next door right Right. It's fucking ridiculous. Yeah. But Desi has an excuse to think that way because he grew up that way for 16 years. And then all of a sudden he has this boom, crazy thing that happens. It was taken away. But he knows he can get it back because that's his destiny. Yeah. Also, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if what happened to Desi over the next couple years that I'm about to talk about had happened to a white man, I don't think we'd put so much emphasis on his good luck. I don't. I don't.

I think it's ridiculous. Anyway, let's talk about lucky Desi. He's so lucky. He's a star. Hey, he is. He cries, cries, cries. I don't Desi. He's so lucky. He's a star. Hey, he is. But he cries, cries, cries. I don't think he did a lot of crying. He seemed like a pretty happy guy.

Okay. So Desi got a job singing and playing guitar in a Roomba band. Did I say Roomba like the vacuum? Yes. It was just Desi and a bunch of Roombas just going all over the club cleaning shit up. Yeah. Did they just run the Roomba over like the floor piano from that movie Big? That's exactly what they did.

Thank you. Yeah, great. So after he graduated high school, he moved to New York City with no money, but he had a job with a band. But the job did not pay well. But the job did not pay well. So after a few months, he went to his boss, Javier Cugat, and negotiated himself into a much better job. Javier had a band in Miami, and Desi would now lead the band in Miami. So that was huge.

Go back home. Yeah, and be the band leader. Yeah. But Desi wanted more. He wanted to take his band into better venues. He wanted better gigs. And so he and his friend came up with this plan. This swanky new club had just opened up. So Desi and his friend went in there and they pretended to be swanky themselves. They spent so much money. Oh. Ridiculous, impressive amounts of money.

Money that, yikes, they did not have to spend. So where did it come from? Whose money was it? I mean, I'm guessing they pooled all the money they had and just, I mean, it's kind of like gambling. This is a gamble that I'm telling you about. Sounds like it. This is a gamble that I'm telling you about. Sounds like it. But it paid off. They acted like big shots, and they struck the club's management as so well-connected and so impressive that they landed a weekly gig at this new club, a gig that would pay

them $650 a week. Adjusted for inflation, that's $14,000. Very expensive. I hate that. Well, it's here to stay. I'm sorry. So money was coming in, but problems popped up. Desi was the leader of the band, but he wasn't totally in charge. It was still Javier's band. And Javier kept sending him musicians, and Desi was frustrated because a lot of these guys sucked ass. So he came up with an idea. These guys were terrible at playing their actual instruments.

Why not give them pots and pans? Pots and pans? Yeah. Anyone can, you know. Yeah. Okay. Why not like a drum? A drummer.

Maybe for the fun. Okay. Why not teach them the conga? In fact, why not teach everyone the conga? And that's what Desi did. He helped introduce the conga to America. And guess what? America loved it because who doesn't love the conga?

Yeah, especially from a charming, handsome, non-threatening boy. Exactly. Yeah. Pretty soon, everyone was like, who's that hottie teaching me to conga? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Who is that? I'm going to put my hands on his hips.

Do I need like a soundbite? You know, I have this. I'm about to bust. But do I need like a female version of that? Sure. I'll have to find something. I'm horrified why i don't know i don't know what you're gonna find yeah we'll see so you know people are looking

at him and they are liking what they are seeing they are like gee i sure would like to bang that guy and desi was like no problem because desi was banging everybody oh he was a frequent flyer at his local high-end brothel. Sexy times. Okay. Yep. He was a frequent flyer into the vaginas of hot women everywhere, which is a rude way of saying it, I guess. Would you like to hear a fun story?

Sure. Okay. Around this time, Desi got a sore toe, a real bad sore toe. A sore toe. Okay. He kind of tried to ignore it, but it just got worse and worse and worse. And so finally, he went to the doctor with his sore toe. A sore toe. Okay. He kind of tried to ignore it, but it just got worse and worse and worse. And so finally he went to the doctor with his sore toe and the doctor ran some tests and came back and was like, Hey, I am so sorry, buddy, but you have syphilis. Yep. Desi freaked out

partly because his BFF from high school, Al Capone Jr., well, his dad had just died from syphilis. So Desi was sitting there like, holy shit, I'm going to die. And then the doctor was like, whoopsie, Desi, I am so sorry. I mixed up your blood sample with somebody else's. Oh, gosh, you don't have syphilis. You've just got a sore toe. Please don't let this stop you from banging everybody. Isn't that ridiculous?

Oh, what a mix-up. Classic. That is ridiculous. Well, yeah, I mean, to think you go in with a sore toe and you leave with syphilis. But also, like, keep better track of those blood samples, man. Yeah, really. More important than Desi's sore toe was the fact that he was part of this movement in music. And the entertainment industry took notice.

There was a new Broadway musical called Too Many Girls. Too many girls, too many girls, too many girls. Oh, you're really adding a sensual element there. You can never have too many girls, too many girls, too many girls. Oh, you're really adding a sensual element there. You can never have too many girls. Okay, calm down. And they wanted Desi to play the role of Manuelito. Too Many Girls was a huge hit. Yeah?

Yeah, and you know something, Norm? Sometimes the old-timey things, they can be a little problematic. What do you mean? I would like to share the names of two hit songs from this Broadway musical. Oh, boy. Okay. Let's hear them. One of them is Give It Back to the Indians.

I listened to that one on YouTube. Yeah. And I'd like to share one of my favorite comments under that video. Okay. Our hideous treatment of Native Americans aside, this was a fun song. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just put all that aside.

Yeah, just ignore. You know what I hate about it is it does have a good beat. Does it? Does it slap? No, I wouldn't say that, but you know. Should I put it on my Spotify? You ready for an even worse song? Okay, yeah, what?

They had Desi singing a song called Spickin' Spanish. Hmm. Yep. Yep. Mm-hmm. Hate it. Yeah. So Desi was now in this big broadway musical it was a huge success so much so that rko pictures

bought the movie rights for the show and um here's something fun the musical too many girls had featured latino women but for the movie version there was no need to hire any Latino women. All white women. Yeah. Yeah. And that's how Lucille Ball got cast in the movie. Yay. Yay. Hey.

Hollywood has changed so much. Hey, she's white. So young Desi went to Hollywood, and he did it in typical Desi style. First thing he did was buy a Buick Roadster convertible, hire a driver, and get that man a uniform. Because what good is a driver if it's not clear that he is your driver? Give him a cute little uniform. I should wear a uniform when we go on road trips. And then when people pass us, they'll think you're some famous star.

No one would think that because of the condition of our vehicles. We're going to have to get a much nicer vehicle. You mean our **** is. OK, bleep that. I don't need everybody knowing exactly what we drive. Yeah, well, it is. Yeah, I guess people wouldn't buy it. No.

They'd see all the bird poop stains on it. Yeah. And they'd be like, what's wrong with this woman? So he hires this guy, puts him in a uniform, gets in the nice car, and has the guy drive him to the RKO lot. The guards at the RKO lot were just kind of stunned. So, you know, they just let him through. This guy's important. Yeah. RKO had a rule that you could only drive your car on the lot if you were a VP at RKO or a major movie star. And he was neither.

Nope. He was nobody. Yeah. He was gonna be in a movie. But, you know, Desi looked the part and he acted as if he was the part. And so the guards had just been like, yeah, OK, sure. Yeah. Pretty brilliant. I think this is so smart.

That's what I'm saying. We should try it. I'm just saying like. Here's what I'm thinking. Next time we go to like a Kansas City Royals game. Uh-huh. You know, they charge crazy amounts for parking. Right.

But what if we rolled up in like a limo? In a Buick. And I had a little tux on. And I'd say, I'm just dropping off. The gaming historian's wife. The gaming historian's wife is in the back. And I'd say, I'm hubby. No, you can't admit to being my husband.

Then the whole thing is a wash. Yeah, I guess that wouldn't work. I have seen – I saw a YouTube short the other day of there's this guy and he looked kind of like a player on the Los Angeles Lakers. And so they like – That's great. They like made him look like exactly like them, like same clothes, wore sunglasses. And then they rented the same car that that player drives. And they just got in and they got onto the court and were doing practice and it was pretty funny.

That's amazing. And they only figured it out when he got out there and sucked really bad. I don't think he actually played, but they just wanted to see if they could – Let me have the fantasy, Norm. If they could get into the arena. Yeah. So hey, yeah, people still do it today. Very good.

Yeah. I just think this is a really, you know, obviously a lot of people thought this was obnoxious that he did this. If you're exuding importance and confidence, then it goes a long way. But I'm saying if you're the brown guy and you're showing up on this movie set and you know how people might be primed to treat you. Yeah.

Maybe you flip that on its head by getting a really great car and a driver with a spiffy little uniform and you drive your ass right on set. Absolutely. Now, like I said, Desi and Lucy met in the commissary. I think it's safe to say that sparks flew. The thing is, they were both in relationships. Lucy was still with Al Hall. They'd been dating for three years. Desi was engaged to a woman named Renee DeMarco, for three years, Desi was engaged to a woman named Renee DeMarco. And they'd met when Renee was married. She and her husband

were this big ballroom dancing duo, but she was going to, you know, end that for Desi. Yeah. In a way, Renee seemed like a pretty good match for Desi because when he hooked up

with other women, she just looked the other way. The author Kathleen Brady pointed out that Renee was a lot like Desi's mom which is an equal mix of gross and rude and true so sparks flew in the lunchroom even though they shouldn't have it was forbidden which made them spark even harder that's right later that day the cast of the movie too Many Girls went out to eat at a local restaurant, and Lucy and Desi got a little flirty. What restaurant?

I do know it's a Mexican restaurant, and every source names it, so it made me wonder if it was still around. It starts with a Z. I don't know. I'm sorry. I suck. That's the spirit. So Lucy and Desi, they're at their own separate table because they're flirting so hard. Yeah.

And Lucy was like, what's your name again? Was it Dizzy? Daisy? You know, flirty, flirty, flirty, flirty. Okay, question. Yes. What's the age difference between Desi and Lucy LeBall? She's a little older.

I can't remember exactly. I want to say he's 23 and she's 28, 27. Okay. That's not too bad. No, but it is interesting. It is. Okay. So their connection was instant.

It was deep. They talked till 3 a.m. They told each other a.m. They told each other all about themselves. And a few days later, there was a cast party for the movie. And by that point, Desi's fiance had come to town. So she was at this party with him. Renee.

And Desi spotted Lucy sitting out on the beach. And he went over and sat next to her. And yada, yada, yada, they woke up next to each other the following morning. Woo! That means they had sex. Sexy times. Right? Well, yeah, I'm going to assume.

The next day, Desi broke off his engagement and Lucy dumped Al Hall. And as a sign that there were no hard feelings, Al sent Lucy a turkey. Well, that's very nice. Man, can you imagine? That's a classy old man move, isn't it? You know, I've only broken up once in my life. Uh-huh. It would have made it a lot better turkey you would have sobbed while eating the turkey and be like this was a classy move yeah rotisserie chicken would have worked too if you're trying to save some money

you know yeah it was official desi and lucy thing. Hell yeah. But people didn't know what to make of them. Oh, I was right on the ages. She was 28. He was 23. She was an established actress, the queen of the bees. And he was new in town. But a successful entertainer from Miami. Yeah. Yeah. She was white. Yeah. Yeah.

She was white. He was Hispanic. She was white. He was Hispanic. She was white. He was Hispanic. Ah, yeah. Obviously, this was all a publicity stunt for their new movie. This couldn't possibly be a real relationship.

Oh, so there were haters. Yeah. And doubters. Oh, doub there were haters. Yeah. And doubters. Oh, doubters for sure. A lot of the doubters were saying that he was using Lucy. Of course. But their relationship wasn't a publicity stunt. They were in love.

And it's easy to focus on what made Lucy and Desi different. But I'm telling you, for two people who had such different upbringings and cultural backgrounds, they had a lot in common. Both of them, for a variety of reasons, felt personally responsible for the well-being of their mothers. Both of them would care for their mothers for their entire lives. Both of them had really bad tempers. Both of them could be extremely jealous. Both of them were very controlling.

Both of them, and I'm sure there are some people who will say this doesn't mean shit, but it was pointed out on the Turner Classic Movies podcast about Lucille Ball's life. They mentioned Desi's name means desire. And Lucy's middle name was Desiree. Yeah. Which means desire. Desire. Is that from Cat's Dote Dance?

No, that's some song from the 80s or 90s. I hear it on the radio all the time. I have no idea who sings it. Wonderful. Thank you for that. Actually, do you mind if I Google? Oh, my God, Norm. I'm trying to tell a story here.

Oh, U2. Oh, it's U2? I think it's a U2 song. Anyway, continue. I think that word in all its meanings really fits both of them. Desire in terms of sexuality. Lucy and Desi were both very sensual people. They had awesome sex.

But I'm also talking about desire in terms of their desire to be great. Their desire to be remembered and make an impact. Yes. So other people saw them as having this romance that was going to burn out really quickly. But that's not what happened. They did have trouble, though. When Desi would go on the road, Lucy would get super jealous and rightly so. Yeah. Sometimes on the nights when she told him that she'd be home, Lucy just didn't answer the phone. And later, when they got a chance to talk, he'd be like, where were you last night? And she'd say, here and there. Just to piss him off, make him wonder.

I was going to say, yeah. So there was this immediate attraction. There was love. There was a bit of game playing going on. And maybe there was a bit of a career calculation on both of their parts. Sure. But in 1940, Lucy flew out to New York for the premiere of one of her movies. And of course, that meant she had to do a bunch of press. And one of the interviews she did was for an article

about how she was never going to get married. The article would be called, Why I Will Always Be a Bachelor Girl. I enjoy being a bachelor girl. I'm glad they edited that song down. She did the interview from her hotel room. And, you know, Desi had been on the road, but he'd met up with her in New York, and he was there kind of listening to this interview, and he didn't like that she was doing an interview about how she would never get married.

And once the reporter left, they started talking. Here's how that conversation went. Desi, that article isn't going to come across very good because I'm marrying you tomorrow. Oh. Lucy, why do we have to get married? Desi, I want to have kids. You love me?

Lucy, yes. Desi, and I love you. What else is there? That's sweet in a way. Oh, i love it yeah i really love it yeah what what else do you need and so even though she hadn't planned to stay in new york for long all she had was a black dress they drove to connecticut bought a cheap ring, and on November 30th, 1940, Desi and Lucy got married. Their friends thought the marriage wouldn't last six months. How long had they been dating?

Oh, gosh. I want to say like a year maybe. That could even be generous now that I'm thinking about it. Okay. I would say like a year maybe. That could even be generous now that I'm thinking about it. OK. But it had been a kind of tumultuous courtship. Yeah. It seems like they both have very strong personalities.

Yeah. And they'd filmed that movie together. Yeah. But then he was on the touring company for the Broadway play. So he was away from Hollywood a lot. But then he got a contract with RKO, so it was clear he was coming back. So, you know, there's just a lot of moving parts. But yeah, they're both very passionate people and they loved each other. Lucy and Desi would have a passionate, at times tumultuous marriage.

And as we'll see in the next episode, they'd create one of the best, most beloved TV shows of all time. But it'd be a hell of a battle to get there. Woo! Dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun-dun Stay tuned for the exciting third part of this Lucille Ball story. Wow. Very good. Do I sound like I could work for RKO Pictures?

Yeah, maybe. Thank you. In another life. What do you think of the proposal and the marriage? What do I think of it? Yeah. In what way? What do you mean?

Well, it's funny because, I don't know, in a lot of ways it's a very romantic story. I can also see it being kind of a bit of a game too. Desi always said that he had planned to propose and he had planned to do the elopement. Oh, well, there – To me, that doesn't seem very planned. No. I think he heard that. Yeah. And he – it was maybe a power move in a way. Sure.

Like, oh, well, actually, you're going to marry me. Yeah. I don't believe that for one second that he had it planned. I can see it being kind of a game on her part, doing this interview, maybe having it drag on, having him there for the interview. Yeah. But yeah, I can – and I can also see him genuinely loving her, genuinely wanting to marry her. But also part of the motivator is I want what I can't have. You're telling me you're going to be a bachelor girl for the rest of your life?

Well, no, you're not. That's my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. What did you think of this, Norm? Very, very interesting. I especially liked the rise of Lucille Ball in Hollywood because that's got to be tough as in there's no nepotism here. It's – Right.

You're an outsider coming in and you got to freaking work your ass off and make it to the top. Man, oh, man. top man oh man um i tell you what if you've made it this far in the episode i invite you join us on patreon patreon.com old timey podcast there's a slash forward slash in there okay well you know www colon forward slash forward slash anyway well. Well, patreon.com slash old timey podcast. Yes. We invite you to join us there. Yes. If Patreon's not your thing,

if you want to support the show, please give us a rating and review. Rating and review is also a great way to support the show. Oh, and subscribe to the show, please. Yeah. Please do. This was a fun episode. Yeah. I'm ready to get to the show please yeah please do this was a fun episode yeah i'm ready to get to the i love lucy part well that's part three right it better be my god how much am i gonna drag

this out no it's it is funny because i am so interested well in all this and it's hard to i'm gonna stop you there okay i going to be supportive hubby here. Oh, boy. You're not dragging anything out. You're telling a story. Thank you. And you're telling it very well. Oh, thank you.

You're welcome. Thank you, dear. Yes. So don't use that word dragging because that implies that you're saying things that aren't necessary. But I think this is a very excellent story so far. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

I'm having a lot of fun with it. I think it's funny because I've never done a case that's going to be spread out over several episodes. You never did a two-parter on Let's Go to Court? No, no. Never did. Never did. Yeah, never did. But I love listening to stories like this that are told over multiple episodes. And, you know, I always feel like I hate when you see a podcast and it's like every episode is 40 minutes long or 41 minutes.

And it's like that smells like bullshit to me because, you know, some stories shouldn't be 40 minutes. Some stories should be 20. Some should be two hours, you know, like take as long as it needs to tell the story. I'm trying to do that here. But man, it's it's hitting me right in the insecurities. Just do your thing. OK, we'll be fine. OK. Just do your thing. Okay. We'll be fine. Okay.

Kristen, you know what they say about history hoes? We always cite our sources. God damn. That's right. Okay. For this episode, I got my info from the fabulous Turner Classic Movies podcast, The Plot Thickens. They did their first season on Lucille Ball. It's awesome. The Plot Thickens. They did their first season on Lucille Ball. It's awesome. Also, the incredible book Lucille, colon, The Life of Lucille Ball by Kathleen Brady. Another great thing, the Lucy and

Desi documentary. You can watch it right now on Prime. And the American Masters episode, Finding Lucy. That's all for this episode. Thank you for listening to an O-Tiny Podcast. Please give us a five-star rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And until next time, toodaloo, ta-ta, and cheerio!