Let's Go To Court! - 33: The Casey Anthony Trial & the Starvation Doctor

Episode Date: September 12, 2018

Cindy Anthony’s 911 call in the summer of 2008 was as upsetting as it was chilling. She said her granddaughter, three-year-old Caylee Anthony had been missing for 31 days. Her daughter Casey Anthony had also been missing, but now she was back — and her car smelled like it’d held a dead body. Police rushed to the scene to interview 22-year-old Casey. But Casey’s story was odd. She claimed her daughter had been kidnapped, and that she’d been trying to find Caylee on her own. Police quickly caught Casey in a string of lies. She was eventually charged in her daughter’s death. Then Kristin tells us about Dr. Linda Hazzard. Well, Dr. Hazzard wasn’t really a doctor, but thanks to a handy loophole, Linda was able to call herself one. In the early 1900’s she made a name for herself by championing the benefits of fasting. She even created a sanitarium called Wilderness Heights, where her wealthy patients endured lengthy fasts, enemas, and violent massages. But locals soon dubbed the sanitarium “Starvation Heights.” Linda’s methods killed several patients, but not before they signed over their valuables.   And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Olalla’s Starvation Heights still causes chills after a century,” Kitsap Sun The book, “Starvation Heights,” by Gregg Olsen Linda Hazzard, Fasting Proponent and Killer, HistoryLink.org Linda Burfield Hazzard, Murderpedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Caylee Anthony” by Chuck Hustmyre, Crime Library “Casey Anthony” crimemuseum.com “Casey Anthony” biography.com “Death of Caylee Anthony” wikipedia.org

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the starvation doctor.

And I'll be talking about everyone's favorite tot mom, Casey Anthony. Oh. Tot mom? Yeah, that's what Nancy Grace dubbed her. Really? Yes. Nancy, that was not your best word. I am very excited for yours, though.

Okay. I hesitate to give a disclaimer because I feel like I've given a lot of disclaimers lately. Is this where you tell us that what you're about to say totally sucks? This is where I tell you that this is a big case. Yeah. It's huge i was obsessed with it when it happened followed it like from the beginning all the way through the trial group okay there were no facebook groups facebook was still pretty new at that time i had a facebook but i don't even know that facebook had groups yet oh okay then because the disappearance happened in 2008 so oh yeah i think i got a facebook and oh i'm sorry i didn't know you know so much about the history of facebook well you know at first it

opened up to the ivies and then it came out to the greater boston area Anyway, so I have done my best to condense all of this information into a appropriately sized episode. So if I'm leaving out your favorite details about this case, I'm very sorry. I'm just trying to hit all of the major events that took place. Send all hate tweets to BrandyP 182 on twitter let her know folks don't forgive her brandy this episode better be 14 hours long and close um and i am also going to say at this point that i am wrapping up the crazy moms uh series with this case. I can't read about any more moms for a while. Okay. This is three moms in a row for me. Too many moms.

I'm starting to worry about my own mom at this point. Are you suspicious of her? I am suspicious of her. So, Casey Anthony pulled a lot of the information for this from an article for Crime Library by Chuck Hustmeyer. Chuck Hustmeyer, thanks for the article. Let's go. Okay. To court. Sorry. I'm sorry. I liked it. Yeah, I liked it. Born March 19th, casey anthony was just your average 22 year old singer nope she was just your average 22 year old single mother living in orlando florida when she was

catapulted into infamy on july 15th 2008 with what i would argue is one of the most well-known 911 calls ever placed. At around 9 45 on that Tuesday evening, Casey's mother, Cindy placed a frantic call to Orange County 911. There's something wrong. She told the dispatcher. I found my daughter's car today. It smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. If you know anything about this case, I guarantee you've heard that 911 call. Yeah, it was played and played and played and played. Yes. Cindy went on to tell the dispatcher that she feared for her almost three year old granddaughter Kaylee as she hadn't seen her in about a month. The dispatcher, confused and alarmed by this information, asked to speak with the little girl's mother. So Casey got on the phone.

My daughter has been missing for 31 days, Casey explained. I know who has her. I've tried to contact her. Casey claimed that her nanny of almost two years, Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez, had kidnapped Kaylee. She told the dispatcher that she received a call from Kaylee that day, but it only lasted about a minute before someone hung up the phone. When she'd called the number back, it was out of service. The dispatcher was like, why are you fucking calling us now? Why didn't you call us 31 days ago? Yeah, the dispatcher was very confused yes and uh casey's like i've been looking through her or looking for her and trying to go through other resources to

try and find her and i know that was stupid to say this story seemed a bit off from the beginning would be an understatement but we're just getting started buckle up kristen there's bumpy terrain ahead i'm gonna have to and i'm gonna have to shut up because i'm already shaking my head yeah i know i can't interject every few seconds but like it's already bullshit just bullshit bullshit bullshit oh i my child went missing and I didn't want to call the police. Yeah. Oh, she's just been missing for 31 days. That's all.

Yeah. No big deal. I mean, I know who has her. I just can't track her down. When Orange County Sheriff's deputies came to the Anthony home that evening, Casey spun them quite the tale. Came to the Anthony home that evening. Casey spun them quite the tale. She admitted to deputies the last time she'd seen Kaylee was on June 9th when she dropped her off at the nanny's house somewhere between 9 a.m. and 1 p.m.

That was the cable guy. Yeah, exactly. This is your four hour window. Then she'd gone to her office at Universal studios which is an amusement park in orlando have you been there yes me too not since i was like 15 probably though but it's still an amusement it's still an amusement park that is correct change it into a tgm um no it is the right it's the home of harry potter world that's what. Yeah. It's been a while for me, too. So she tells them that she went to her office at Universal Studios where she worked as an event planner. When she went back to the nanny's apartment around five to pick Kaylee up, no one was home.

She called the nanny's cell phone, but it was out of service. Casey said she waited outside the apartment for the next two hours, but when Kaylee and or the nanny failed to appear, she went to her new boyfriend's house. She described it to deputies as one of the few places I felt at home. For the next month, she lived there with her boyfriend, spending her time looking for Kaylee and avoiding her parents. Why avoiding her parents? Well, she hadn't told them that she was missing. In fact, she hadn't told anybody that Kaylee was missing. She hadn't told her boyfriend, her parents, her friends, no one.

When asked if she'd told anyone that she believed kaylee had been kidnapped casey told them that she had only told two former co-workers at universal juliet lewis and jeff hopkins why'd you laugh at that name kristin isn't juliet lewis that actress she sure is that actress you know there's lots of people with that name very common. Isn't Juliette Lewis that actress? She sure is that actress. You know, there's lots of people with that name. Very common name, Kristen. It was, in fact, Jeff Hopkins who had introduced her to the nanny. So she said she'd talked to him several times in the past few weeks trying to get any possible information he might have on the nanny's whereabouts. he might have on the nanny's whereabouts.

Detectives thought Casey's story seemed implausible. Yeah. But maybe not impossible. Perhaps in a state of fear and desperation, she really had tried to find Kaylee on her own. Despite their skepticism, they decided to give her the benefit of the doubt. For now. It wouldn't be long before they discovered everything she had told them was a lie.

A three-year-old girl was missing and precious time had already been wasted. 31 days have gone by. Yeah. So, Detective Yuri Melich. Melich, Melich. I'm not really sure how it's pronounced. M-E-L-I-C-H. I think it's Melich, but that's how I'm going to pronounce it.

So he knew he had to hit the ground running. But if we're sticking with the track and field metaphor, dealing with Casey Anthony would be like Detective Melich running hurdles at full speed, blindfolded. Melich knew his first step was to try and track down the nanny so he asked casey for her number casey said she didn't have a working number for her and when she'd gone back to her last known residence casey had found it empty it looked as if the nanny had moved out excellent super helpful next me melick asked for her phone numbers oh asked her for the phone numbers for the only other two people who knew kaylee was missing casey's former co-workers juliet lewis and jeff hopkins she didn't have either of those numbers oh you see she lost her cell phone nine days earlier and it happened to be the one with all of her important contacts in it.

She had two cell phones. One had all of her contacts in it. The other one didn't. Of course, she lost the one with all of her contacts. Why did she have two cell phones? Everybody has two cell phones, Kristen. Yeah, if you're a drug dealer. Yeah, I don't know why she had two cell phones, but this is her story.

Okay, okay. Far be it from me to question Casey Anthony. But they weren't going to be of much help anyway, she told Detective Mellick. Juliet had moved to New York, and Jeff had relocated upstate to Jacksonville. What a bummer. Another dead end. But Mellick obviously wasn't going to give up that easily yeah casey had told him that in the nearly two years zenaida had watched um kaylee the nanny had lived at three

different residences on july 16th detective mellick asked casey to take him to these residences at each place mellick went in and spoke with the property manager and in each instance no one could find a record of Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez ever living there okay it's been a long time since I read about this case so there are all these details that I'm forgetting oh my god I'll tell you that as obsessed as I was with this case there's one big thing that happens in here that I did not recall at all. Okay, cool. So when they got to the most recent residence, the one that Casey had been taking Kaylee to for the last three or four months before she disappeared, they found the apartment empty, just as Casey had said she'd found it when she went there looking for Kaylee.

But when Malik talked to the property manager, they told him the apartment had been vacant since February. And again, there was no record of Zenaida ever living there. At this point, Malik knew that Casey had been lying about the nanny. And he was pretty sure that wasn't all she was lying about. But he wasn't going to let on that wasn't all she was lying about but he wasn't going to let on that he knew that she was lying to him so he dropped her off at home and went to check out her story about working at universal studios there he found out that casey had been fired in more than two years ago.

Additionally, no one named Juliette Lewis had ever worked there. And Jeffrey Hopkins, he had, but he left in 2002, long before Kaylee was born. Had she known him, or do you think that was just a lucky guess with that name? I think she probably had come across his name, because she did actually work there for a time. Right, right time but i don't believe she had ever actually worked with him she would have been in high school in 2002 she's our age oh that's right that's right yeah oh my god nuts right yes so determined to get to the bottom of this mellick called casey on speakerphone in front of the company representatives from Universal Studios

so they could hear her claims about her employment. Again, Casey claimed to be an event planner with her own office, but when pressed for details on the location and building number, she got a little fuzzy. Instead, she offered up an office phone number and extension, which the people at Universal quickly confirmed was invalid. Casey then told Detective Mellick that she'd lost her employee ID, but said that he should get in contact with her supervisor, Tom Manley, to verify her employment. Now, here's a shocker, Kristen. Does he not exist? Tom Manley never worked for Universal Studios. Okay, here's what I don't understand at all.

Yeah. You're telling all this to the police. Yeah. These are such easily verifiable lies. Yeah. Why? Why? Yeah.

And I'm sorry, but you've had like a month to get a good story down. Are you serious? This is the best you can do yeah so mellick is fed up at this point and he's decided he's gonna call casey on her shit because he's like we have got to get moving on some real shit here if we're gonna find this kid best case scenario he figures at that point she's lying because she's embarrassed or ashamed of her behavior worst case scenario she's done something to her daughter yeah so on july 17th he and two deputies brought

casey to universal studios and asked her to take them to her office oh my god immediately that had to be so much fun immediately she ran into trouble security wouldn't let her through the gate because she'd lost her ID badge. Malik flashed his detective badge, though, and got them through. Once through security, Casey walked purposefully through the park, to a building, and through a door like she knew exactly where she was going. Oh my god. It wasn't until they were halfway down a long hallway inside the building that she turned to detectives and admitted that she no longer worked there the detectives took casey into a conference room then and there well she like trying to say hi to people in the hallway right hey lisa how are you

tanya looking good they're like who the fuck is that that had to be so weird for the detectives. Super weird because they're like, how far is she going to take this? Yes. So they take her into a conference room and they confront her. They lay it out. They know about all the lies.

They ask her to come clean. But if they expected her to give in to the pressure of this confrontation, they were about to be disappointed. With all of the facts laid out in front of her, Casey admitted that not everything she had told the detectives was the truth. Fine, she didn't work at Universal anymore, but she was adamant that she had been taking Kaylee to that apartment.

She didn't care what that stupid property manager had to say. I'm scared, she told detectives. I don't know where my daughter is. The last person I saw her with was Zenaida. The detectives, beyond frustrated at this point, demand to know why Casey had gone along with this trip to Universal if she hadn't worked there in over two years. Yeah. Honestly, I wanted to come and try and talk to security, Casey told them. Maybe pass around a picture of Kaylee.

Oh. That's just the worst lie! Yeah. As they wrapped up the interview, one detective asked Kaylee, I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter. Good question. It's not going to help us find your daughter? Good question. It's not going to, Casey finally admitted. Which is the real answer.

Yeah. If you know anything about this case, she doesn't want them to find her daughter. Yeah. A couple of hours later, detectives had tracked down the real Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. The woman said she had actually visited the apartments Casey claimed she lived in on June 17th while looking for a new apartment for her and her daughters. She had filled out a guest card on that date, but she ended up renting elsewhere and hadn't returned to that apartment complex since then. When detectives showed her a picture of Casey and Kaylee, Zenaida said she didn't recognize them. She also told detectives she had never worked as a nanny or babysitter.

So the theory here is that Casey had a friend maybe that worked at this apartment complex or lived at this apartment complex and somehow saw this guest registry of people who had looked at apartments there and had just like taken in that name. Wow. Because it would be too coincidental. Yeah. That's that's not otherwise. No, exactly. But she did not know Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez. And Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez

did not know her. Okay, I can't remember if I've said this before on the podcast, but I feel like we've done a few cases now where white people try to pin a crime on, like, some Hispanic man. Right, yeah. Or so-and-so. I'm ready to start a new law. I'm ready to change a law.

I think that should be a hate crime. Back me up on this. Like, I don't... I don't know that I would go so far as that's what she's trying to do. She's trying to cast suspicion away from herself. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I don't think that's what she's trying to do. Right.

But I think if you're a douchebag white person and you try to pin a crime on someone who's not white, I think it should be a hate crime. All right. Fine. I guess I'll take this up on my own. Next, detectives talked to Casey's friends. And would you believe it? She hadn't told any of them that Kaylee was missing or that she feared that she'd been kidnapped.

One person in particular stood out to them. Though he was her ex-fiance, Casey was still close with Jesse Gund, an officer with the Orlando Police Department. He told detectives that Casey had called him on June 27th and invited him to come out with her to a popular club in the area. So 18 days after she claimed her daughter went missing, she had called the police. But instead of asking for help with her missing daughter, she asked him to go clubbing. No.

This was all Detective Mellick could hear. He'd had enough. Yeah. At 4.30 p.m. that day, he placed Casey Anthony under arrest for child neglect, filing false official statements, and obstructing a criminal investigation.

They had unraveled all of Casey's lies to this point, but little Kaylee was still missing. Detectives began to fear the worst, but they didn't charge Casey with murder. Yet. Casey wouldn't stay in jail for long, though. In fact, she would bounce in and out of jail over the next several months with different parties coming forward to put up her $500,000 bond. It would get revoked, and someone else would bond her out again. This case had become a media spectacle, and everyone wanted in on the action. In the meantime, the whole country was looking for Kaylee. There were posters of her everywhere. You couldn't turn on the TV without

seeing her picture come across the screen. But as time passed, Detective Mellick warned the public that the likelihood of finding Kaylee alive at this point was extremely slim. And where are Casey's parents in all this right now? They are actively searching for her. They're involved with all of the search groups. They're looking for Kaylee. They're handing out posters everywhere. I mean, the search for Kaylee was huge. Texas EquiSearch had come in, which is a huge volunteer search organization

that has been involved in all kinds of high-profile searches, including Natalie Holloway when she disappeared in Aruba. Huge organization. They came in. We're searching. And George and Cindy, Casey's parents, were involved in all of that. But at the same time, they were getting tons of hate thrown their way for this daughter that they raised. This monster. How could they raise this monster? How could they let this happen to their granddaughter?

How could they not notice that their granddaughter was missing for 31 days? was missing for 31 days they were they were really pulled through the mud right alongside Casey well and were they suspicious because Cindy was the one who called and said her car smells like a dead body yeah yes I mean we'll I'll get into that a little bit more yeah but um they really they really became the target of a lot of vandalism criticism i mean news reporters were camped outside of their house 24 7 i mean i i really felt for them during during all of this um and i mean there it's some there are some valid questions though casey and kaylee lived with them yeah yeah so for them to just leave one day and not come back for a month that's concerning it's concerning but i don't know that you would necessarily jump you wouldn't jump to something has happened to the granddaughter correct

because there was an argument that led to them to casey leaving with kaylee okay blah blah blah yeah okay so the search is going on but the public has been made aware like we're we're looking for remains at this point, basically. The likelihood that we're going to find this little girl alive is slim to none. But now Detective Mellick was focused on Casey's activities after she claimed Kaylee had disappeared. He felt sure the clues to the truth lied in there somewhere. So he followed up on that claim that Cindy had made on the 911 call. It smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. What Mellick found out was that Casey's Pontiac Sunfire had run out of gas on June 27th and she had abandoned it in a parking lot.

Three days later, a tow truck was called to impound the car. The driver who had towed the car recalled to detectives that when he'd opened the sunfire's door an odor poured out from the vehicle it was a smell he'd smelled before and one he would not forget he told detectives it was the same smell he'd smelled when he had towed a car in which a man's body had sat decomposing for several days after he committed suicide. Oh, my. Yeah. And he didn't call police, though, when he.

He didn't call police, but this was impounded to a police impound lot because it had been left in a public area. And so it all goes to like an impound lot. And so I guess the police weren't made aware at this time but he immediately was like i know what this is something's going on with that car but no he didn't call police he didn't whatever okay casey had never attempted to pick up her car that's pretty weird right your car runs out of gas so you just leave it forever yeah it wasn't until july 15th so it ran out of gas on june 27th july 15th george and cindy her parents get a letter that the car which was in their names had been impounded when george picked up the car from the

impound lot that day he and the lot attendant both noted the smell of death coming from the trunk of the car. Oh, this is too weird. No. When they opened the trunk, though, all they found was a bag of trash. No dead body. It was later that night that Cindy made that call to 911. Yeah. So they get the car.

They call Casey. They confront her. Casey comes over. And just all hell breaks loose. That's when they're like, where's Kaylee? What's going on? She tells them, I think she's been kidnapped by the nanny. And so Cindy's like, no no this cannot be true this isn't

the case that's when she calls yeah 9-1-1 so on july 17th a cadaver dog was brought in to go over casey's car and it alerted on the trunk yeah in that trunk detectives found human hair and questionable stains which they believed could be blood or some other bodily fluid. Yeah. I will say that just the finding of hair is not that crazy to me. I mean, I've got hair all over my car. When I vacuum. Oh, yeah.

It's all hair. Yeah. Dirt. Yes, exactly. all over my car when i vacuum oh yeah it's all hair yeah yes exactly i mean people shed hair i i don't know i haven't seen a picture of it i don't know how it's described i don't think it was like a clump of hair i think it was just like some hairs yeah but they described them as being similar to kaylee's okay they also took an air sample from the trunk and sent it off yeah it's a it's a thing so they send the air sample off to the lab to test it for signs of decomposition so a little bit of time goes by and the lab results come back the substances found in the trunk showed positive for signs of decomposition and tested positive for the presence of chloroform a chemical compound that can be used to knock someone unconscious

the detectives believed that this evidence paired with the evidence that someone at the anthony home had searched online for how to make chloroform three months before kaylee disappeared was enough to charge casey anthony with murder and they were right on october 14 2008 a grand jury handed down an indictment of first degree murder, aggravated manslaughter, aggravated child abuse and four counts of lying to investigators. But where was Kaylee? It had been four months since she was last seen and searches had turned up nothing. Turns out, though, there was one person who thought he might know where she was this is the part that i didn't know about or didn't remember at least on august 11th

a meter reader named roy cronk entered a wooded area about half a mile from the anthony home to relieve himself something odd caught his eye about 30 feet from where he was. But the area was flooded. It was an area that flooded a lot. You know, it's really swampy down there in Florida. And he couldn't get much closer to it. So he didn't give it much of a thought. Later that day, though, he couldn't shake the idea that what he saw looked a bit like a skull. He had, of course, heard about the missing girl, but he had no idea how close he was to the home that she'd shared with her mother and grandparents. Oh, my God. So he called the police that night to report what he had seen and direct and they directed him to the tip line.

So he left a message and said, this is where I was. I saw something could Could be nothing. Just wanted to call it in. But the next day, he still couldn't stop thinking about it. And he didn't get a call back from the tip line, so he called the sheriff's office. And they were like, fine, we'll send a deputy to meet you in the area. So the next day, on August 13th, two deputies met roy in that wooded area he pointed to what he thought he believed to be a skull next to a gray bag the deputies kind of like glanced

over walked kind of towards it and then they totally dismissed what he saw they didn't get close enough to inspect it because again the area was flooded yeah but they just totally dismissed it they were rude to him and they chastised him for wasting their time what the so he let it go yeah that was in august august 11th is when he made the first call about it oh my gosh months went by but roy couldn't shake that nagging feeling that he had, that he had seen something there. Oh, Roy. Then on December 11th, he found himself in that area again. And this time it wasn't flooded.

So he was able to give the object a closer inspection. Armed with a stick, Roy poked at the white object, rolling it over. And he discovered it was, without a doubt, a small human skull. Wow. He knew immediately what he'd found. He called the police. And this, you can hear this, his call to 911. He's like, I think I found the little girl.

I think I found Kaylee Anthony. And this time the police listened to him. Was he like? Hey, remember me? Remember me? I think I'd be a douche. I would be too. I'd be like, I'm the person you were rude to several months ago.

Yeah. So investigators and forensic teams swarm the scene. Over the next four days, they recovered the remains of a child in a trash bag and like a larger canvas bag the skull had some hair tissue and duct tape attached to it but the rest of the remains were skeletal on december 19 2008 famed medical examiner dr jan garavaglia do you know her she was like the dr g medical examiner she had a show you just have a show on oh like any or whatever okay she's a very famous medical examiner but she happens to be the medical examiner there in orlando she confirmed that the remains were in

fact kaylee anthony the death was ruled a homicide but the cause of death was listed as unknown this would become a problem later people across the world mourned a beautiful little girl whose life had been cut tragically short and her mother became one of the most hated people on the planet casey had already been convicted in the court of public opinion. So now we just needed to get through the formality of a trial to see her get the punishment she deserved. Easy peasy. As it turns out, nothing about this trial would be easy. Not even jury selection. I didn't remember this part either. With the Honorable Judge Belvin Perry providing, jury selection began didn't remember this part either with the honorable judge belvin perry

providing jury selection began on may 9th 2011 you mean presiding what did i say providing no i didn't i swear it says presiding right here in my fucking notes kristen i can't wait to leave this whole section in anyway what was he providing he was his judge services 75 cents the honorable judge belvin perry was presiding oh which i believe i said the first time but you know what it's been brought to my attention that on another episode you said i said jelly cheese and i swore i said deli cheese but listening back to the tape it definitely sounds like jelly cheese jelly cheese sounds fucking disgusting you know what it sounds like it sounds like velveta no yeah but like

jelly it would have to be clear though clear velveta you know it's kind of just like a yellowy tinge yeah yeah okay but in a block like that kind of like a marmalade jelly type thing yeah god this gross that's disgusting anyway before i was so rudely interrupted jury selection began on may 9th 2011 a jury of nine women and eight men 12 jurors and five alternates wasn't seated until may 20th wait when did the jury selection start may 9th oh 11 days for jury selection i mean you gotta ask them a lot of questions. And they're seeking the death penalty, so they have to get

a death penalty qualified jury. Yeah, you've gotta ask all kinds of questions, including like, are you a Brandy? Have you been watching Nancy Grace on loop? That is a long

damn jury selection. Yeah. The trial would last six weeks, during which the jury was sequestered. Finally, on May 24th,th 2011 opening statements began

in the trial of casey anthony the trial was covered on every nightly news program legal experts each day weighed in on which side had won the day that's so obnoxious. In a six-week trial? Oh, yeah. And Nancy Grace wouldn't stop calling Casey tot mom. Okay, am I alone in this? Tot mom's kind of a lame... I mean, it was all over everything. Well, I'm not saying it wasn't all over everything, but like, cannibal cop. The alliteration is strong there. Tot mom, it's two three-letter words.

I feel like it's got like a little something to it. Yeah, but it doesn't really say what she did is my issue. There's lots of tot moms out there. tot mom it's two three letter words i feel like it's got like a little something to it yeah but it doesn't really say what she did is my issue there's lots of tot moms out there there's like not many casey anthony's they got no kidding she's her own special unicorn i watched every minute of this coverage i was obsessed with this case. I set my DVR and would watch it like in fast forward every night just to see all the high points.

Question. Yes. You and Zach, were you married at this point? Yeah. Was he concerned at all? Nah. I just thought it was a weird thing you were into, huh? I mean, I never kept my true crime obsessions a secret from him. He knew it from the get-go.

Yeah, same here. Yeah. I feel like there are some things you can't hide. How could I hide that about myself? Did you try to hide anything about yourself? I don't think so. I feel like in relationships, I've always held out on belching until like the six-month mark. And then it's like a champion belcher well but i try to be a lady for a while there and pretty soon once they're lured in my by my wonderful personality i release the belches

the lead prosecutor linda Diane Burdick, which I just have to say, I have no recollection of her. When I read that she was the lead prosecutor, I was like, what the fuck? What about Jeff Ashton? He was apparently the assistant prosecutor, but he's the guy that I remember. He stole your heart, huh?

He definitely stole my heart. Because he, oh my God, he had the best facial expressions during this trial. He'd sit there with his arms crossed. He'd roll his eyes. He'd smirk. So I was like, oh man, I feel bad for poor Linda Diane. That's not her name.

Linda Diane's not right. This is auto-corrected. Oh. It's Linda, hold on. Well, if I had to choose between being a Linda or being a Marsha Cross, where everyone's like making fun of my bad perm and, you know, being a dick, I would prefer to be Linda. It's Linda Drain Burdick.

I knew that wasn't right, but it has autocorrected Drain to Diane. Do you think autocorrect is against us? I think it must be. Okay, that makes sense anyway sorry linda for one saying your name wrong and then for two not remembering you i had to look and once i saw a picture of her i was like oh yeah yeah i remember that lady she was on the sidelines that bench warmer i do feel bad for her because i didn't remember her at all but in her in her opening statement she told the jurors that casey used chloroform to knock kaylee out before putting duct tape over her mouth and nose

to suffocate her then she left kaylee's body in the trunk of her car for a few days before disposing of it the motive casey was a party girl who wanted to live it up with her friends. The responsibility of parenthood had gotten to be too much for her. This was an intentional murder and they were seeking the death penalty. In his opening statement, defense attorney Jose Baez cannot stand him. Why not? He's just like, oh, he's such a weasel. What?

Why? Oh, I think he's a dirty lawyer. Really? Oh, yeah. I think he is like your stereotypical bad lawyer, will say anything to get. You think he's like Saul Goodman? That is an insult to Saul Goodman. Really? See, I didn't follow the trial this closely.

So I'm like, oh, he's a fucking lying liar who lies. Yeah. Just you hold. I mean, it's time to buckle your seatbelt. Kristen. I'm buckled. I'm buckled. Defense attorney Jose Baez would drop one bomb after another in his opening statement.

First, bomb number one. He told jurors that Kaylee had never been missing. He said she'd accidentally drowned in the family pool on June 16th. George had found her and he had berated Casey and told her that she would go to jail for the rest of her life for being a neglectful mother. Then, bomb number two. George, not Casey, had covered it up. He disposed of Kaylee's body nearby and had not even told Cindy what happened that day. As for Casey, her strange behavior after Kaylee's disappearance, that was just her way of hiding her pain and pretending that nothing was wrong. This was something she knew how to do well and had been doing her whole life because, bomb number three, she had been being molested and sexually abused by her father and brother since she was eight years old.

I had forgotten all of this, but now it's all coming back. Oh, my. Yes, he told jurors. Casey was a liar, but she had been groomed to be a liar since she was a child. And finally, bomb number four, that good Samaritan Roy Kronk who had found Kaylee. Why, he wasn't a good Samaritan at all. He had found and hidden and relocated the remains before finally leading police to them in December of 2008. Oh, come on.

It was an attempt to gain fame and reward money. You still feel bad for him, Kristen? You were trying to defend him a little bit ago when I called him a weasel. Yeah, well, I was kind of like, oh, do you just not like him because he made some faces on your poor TV programs? But no, now I'm with you. Now I'm remembering. He just wanted reward money. Yeah.

Then why didn't he insist more the first time he was out there with deputies? Maybe the reward wasn't big enough at that point, Kristen. Oh, grief. That's a bunch of bullshit nonsense. It is a bunch of bullshit nonsense. This is infuriating. When this opening statement took place, the public was shocked.

Uh, yeah. The fucking Anthony's had to sit there in the courtroom and hear this stuff said about them they had gotten a heads up the prosecution had given them a heads up that this was going to be the defense and they had warned them like this is going to be really tough to hear but you can't get up and leave if you get up and leave george is just sitting there in the gallery listening to this shit being said about him. Like, yep, I'm a murderer and child molester. Yes. Yeah.

The general consensus, though, was that the public wasn't believing a word Baez had to say. But it doesn't matter what the public thinks. It matters what the jury thinks. It only matters what the jury thinks. Were they buying it? The prosecution called a total of 59 witnesses, starting with George Anthony. On the stand, George testified that he had never abused Casey,

and he also described for the jury the odor he had smelled in Casey's car the day he picked it up from the impound lot he had formerly worked as a law enforcement officer and it was a smell that he had come across during his time in that field it was the guy he used to it was the unmistakable smell of death yes the handler of the cadaver dog that alerted on casey's trunk testified that the dog had indicated a high level of alert on the trunk he also testified that the dog had been certified since 2005 and had participated in over 3 000 searches since his certification i didn't put this in here but i'm going to interject it now because it kind of fits in here. The prosecution actually wanted the jury to smell air samples from the trunk.

And the judge wouldn't allow them to. The defense objected and they kept it out of the trial. Yeah. I don't know that that's necessary. That seems pretty gross. I agree. If you tested it and it showed signs of decomposition, that's probably good enough. Yeah.

But I can see how if you were the prosecution, you would definitely push for that. Yeah. Because that would create an emotional reaction. Yeah. You smell that for the first time and you're like, all right. Next, the prosecution called chief medical examiner Dr. Jan Garavaglia, who testified that she determined Kaylee's manner of death to be homicide, but listed it as death by undetermined means. Dr. G took into account the physical evidence present on the remains she examined, as well as all available information on the way they were found and what she'd been told by authorities before arriving at her determination. Additionally,

Dr. G addressed the chloroform evidence found by investigators inside the trunk of Casey's car. She testified that even a small amount of chloroform would be sufficient to cause the death of a child. So something that might be used to knock out an adult would be enough to kill a small child. Ugh. How old was she?

She was almost three. Oh, God. Her birthday was August 9th, and she disappeared on June 9th, June 16th, somewhere in there. Yeah. Then the prosecution called Michael warren a professor at the university of florida and the director of a human identification laboratory he under objection from the defense that the judge overruled played an animation for the jury the animation showed a picture of kaylee alive and then it superimposed her decomposed skull over the picture. Ooh.

And it showed that the duct tape that was still present on the skull would have covered both her mouth and nose, possibly resulting in her death. Oh. The defense was like, no, you can't show that. And it was really powerful. I'm sure. All of the legal experts were like, this is bad. I'm sure all of the legal experts were like, this is bad. Like this.

Yeah. When you're taking this little smiling little girl and then fucking putting her decomposed skull over it. Yes. Yeah. But I think there's a point to it. Oh, yeah. And Warren testified that in his opinion, the duct tape had been placed on Kaylee's mouth and nose while she was still alive. This would become a big argument in this trial when was the duct tape placed yeah because how do you know how do you know how do you know and if the

prosecution is is alleging that it is the murder weapon they have to be able to prove that it was put on while Kaylee was still alive. Can they do it? Sorry. I remember the verdict, so I'm trying not to answer. Prosecutors also called Canadian software software developer john dennis bradley he testified that he used his software to analyze deleted search records on the anthony's computer from march 17th and march 21st of 2008 and that he had found that someone in the home had searched the website scispot.com for chloroform 84 times. 84 times?

It's pretty bad, huh? Yeah. It would be if it were true. What? So he testifies to this in court on the stand. And then, you know, he's done. He's back home in Canada and he's looking over his software and he realizes that there has been a glitch in the software. Oh, my God.

He discovered that what had been recorded as it being searched 84 times was actually only searched one time. Oh. He immediately let prosecutors know about the glitch. Good job. Okay. And they then disclosed it to both the defense and the judge. Yeah. And they're like, okay, listen, there was a glitch in this software.

This testimony that he gave turns out it's not 100 accurate that somebody in the anthony home did search for it but it looks like it was only searched for one time and the defense like loses their mind they're like you gotta tell the jury about this well obviously yes and the prosecution's like oh i don't think we need to do that why the jurors were never told of the discrepancy yeah that's insane it is insane and the judge was just like no somehow it just never it never made it past this sidebar meeting that's ridiculous it is ridiculous and it could have resulted in a mistrial. Turns out it didn't matter. On June 15th, 2011, the prosecution rested.

It was the defense's turn. Over the next two weeks, they would call 47 witnesses. Most notably, they called Cindy Anthony, who testified that she was the one who had searched for chloroform. Cindy Anthony, who testified that she was the one who had searched for chloroform. But on cross-examination, the prosecution pointed out that Cindy's time clock records at work showed that she was at work when the search happened at her home. How could that be? And Cindy replied, I don't care what my work records show. I'm the one that searched for it. I don't care what my work records show. I'm the one that searched for it.

Had the prosecution caught her in a lie? This led to a lot of speculation in the public that Cindy had perjured herself on the stand. Absolutely. They never sought any perjury charges against her, though. But I 100% think she perjured herself on the stand. Yeah. You can't say, yeah, I did that. And then when you're like, hey, look, you were clocked in at work this day.

Yeah. I don't care what that says. I'm the one that searched it. The most helpful testimony for the offense came from world-renowned medical examiner, Dr. Werner Spitz. We've talked about him before on the podcast. We sure have. He performed a second autopsy on Kaylee after Dr. G and challenged the original autopsy report.

He called her autopsy shoddy, saying it was a failure that Kaylee's skull was not opened during her examination. You need to examine the whole body in an autopsy, he said. Spitz stated that he was not allowed to attend Dr. G's initial autopsy on Kaylee's remains and that from his own follow-up autopsy, he was not comfortable ruling that the child's death was a homicide. He said he could not determine what Kaylee's manner of death was, but said that there was no indication to him that she was murdered. What? Mm-hmm.

So she duct taped herself and went out into the woods? Additionally, Spitz testified that he believed the duct tape found on Kaylee's skull was placed there after the body decomposed. He said that if the tape was placed on the skin, there should have been DNA left on it. So this duct tape is still partially attached to the skull. And in the part where it's still partially attached, there's hair, there's tissue.

But in the part that's flapping around, the tissue has deteriorated away from the skull. And so the rest of the duct tape is no longer affixed. So he's saying that had this been placed on there during the time that she was alive or before she decomposed, that in that flappy area that's no longer, no longer affixed to the skull, there should be DNA there. But wasn't she found in a swampy, watery area? Yes! Okay, then that explains it to me.

So, on cross, the prosecution's like, so... Sorry, I've just lost my place. Were you just so excited that we solved it together? I was, yeah. Yeah.

So, on cross, my buddy Jeff Ashton, who I thought was in charge this whole fucking time. Who was totally the lead prosecutor. He says, so your testimony is the medical examiner's personnel took the hair that wasn't on the skull and placed it here in the duct tape. And Spitz answered, it wouldn't be the first time sir i can tell you some horror stories about that yeah so he testifies that he believes that this tissue and hair all in the duct tape was placed there and staged for crime scene photos wow that's a pretty that's pretty big to uh accuse somebody of that's huge and it's one of those things where okay that shit does happen we know that does happen yeah but i feel like you've

got to have more than just yeah than just well this has happened before in other places but what's happened now is that this world-renowned expert has gotten up on the stand and created a lot of questions about what the prosecution is claiming is the murder weapon. Yeah. Shit. The defense rested on June 30th, 2011.

Casey Anthony did not testify in her own defense. Wise. Yeah. Yes. The jury heard closing arguments on July 3rd and 4th. The prosecution told the jury, when you have a child, that becomes your life. This case is about the clash between that responsibility and the expectations that go with it and the life that Casey Anthony wanted to have. They criticized the defense's claim that Kaylee drowned in the Anthony pool

and that Casey and George panicked upon finding the child's body and covered up her death. They advised jurors to use their common sense when deciding on a verdict. No one makes an accident look like a murder. I love that argument. I love that. It is true, though. Yeah. Defense attorney Jose Baez told jurors his biggest fear was that they would base their verdict on emotions, not evidence.

The strategy used here is that if you hate her, if you think she's a lying, no good slut, then you'll start to look at this evidence in a different light. But I told you at the very beginning of this case that this was an accident that snowballed out of control. The prosecution ended its closing arguments by rebutting, My biggest fear is that common sense will be lost in the rhetoric of this case. biggest fear is that common sense will be lost in the rhetoric of this case. Responses to guilt are predictable. What do guilty people do? They lie. They avoid. They run. They mislead. They divert attention away from themselves, and they act like nothing is wrong. The jury began deliberations on July 4th, 2011. On July 5th, they returned a verdict.

I remember exactly where I was when the verdict came back. I was at work. I was in my office. Were you like, got to go? I 100%. I was like, ladies, got to go. See you later. I did. Seriously?

And then I was like, I'm not going to get home in time to see the verdict. So I went to my dad's business where my dad and my sister work. And they have a TV in their office. And the three of us stood there and we watched the verdict read. And I'll never forget my reaction to it. The jury found Casey not guilty on charges of murder, manslaughter, child abuse, and neglect. They found her guilty only of the four charges of lying to investigators. I remember when the court clerk read the verdict, it caught in her throat like she was shocked by it.

Yeah. Yeah. And the judge has since Judge Belvin Perry has come out and said he was shocked by the verdict. The whole fucking world was shocked by the verdict. verdict and jurors have said that it it made them sick to their stomachs to not find her guilty but they did not think the prosecution proved their case they did not prove a cause of death and based on jury instructions and able to be able to find her guilty of murder or manslaughter they had to have proof of a cause of death and they felt the state fell short there okay i i think sometimes you do have to use common sense though i agree i agree and i i i don't want to speak for these jurors because you know

we're seeing it from the outside. We're not hearing every little thing that the jurors hear. But I don't understand how they didn't convict her. So tell me about your reaction. Oh, my gosh. We all lost our minds. My dad and Casey and I, we were like, what the fuck? Oh, my gosh.

I still remember that day this meme started circulating of dexter reading the miami herald and it said like it was like get her dexter it was like the front of the newspaper said casey anthony not guilty and then the meme said get her dexter i shared that and i was like could not believe that she was found not guilty yeah i'm i'm still blown away by this and the thing that i keep getting stuck on is george yeah george gets accused yeah of murdering his grandchild molesting his daughter he wasn't accused of murdering his grandchild right but covering covering up her accidental death yes and molesting his daughter and he and cindy still married they're still married hold on let me get there in just one second so casey anthony was sentenced to time served for the four charges

of lying to officials so goodbye she was released from jail on July 17, 2011. How did they not get her on child neglect? Child neglect or manslaughter. I mean, manslaughter, you just have to have taken actions that resulted in someone's death. Mm-hmm. I do not understand. When they said not guilty for, when the court clerk read the verdict When they said not guilty for, when the court clerk read the verdict

and they said not guilty for the charge of murder, I was like, okay, they're going to get her on manslaughter. Yeah. Fucking no, they didn't. No. Child abuse, no. Child neglect, no. Lying about working at Universal Studios?

Yes. You'll burn for that. That's right. Yes. So, let's talk about the aftermath of this okay casey anthony has had to live her life in hiding basically she's gotten death threats but she can't leave she can't leave the state of florida because she's on probation for some other charges some like writing bad checks or something like that so she's had to stay in florida that probation might be

over by now um i don't know i'm not positive on that but she for several years was not allowed to leave the state of florida not that it would have mattered no it wouldn't have mattered there's nowhere that she could go that they're not going to recognize her. That may be freaking middle of nowhere Africa. I don't know. Even then, I mean, it was pretty big news. It was huge news. Cindy and George, still married.

Earlier this year, they did a special, like a two hour interview special for TV, where an interviewer came in and interviewed them at their house. I watched it was on the edge of my seat the whole time. They, the dynamic between them is really interesting, because they both blame each other for a lot of things that went wrong they with the whole situation and they both have totally different views about what happened george 100 thinks that casey murdered kaylee cindy believes that there was some kind of accident and that casey just tried to cover it up and so they managed to have this relationship where they both have these different views but at the same time they're very protective of each other because they've had to protect each other from this outside world where they've just been scrutinized it's a really interesting dynamic i really recommend that you watch this special i think it was done for a and e do you think it's one of those things like we were in the trenches together yeah and now yeah if we don't have each other what do we have nobody else

has been through what we've been through yeah yeah everyone thinks we're shitty parents yeah and george says on this special we raised a bad seed yeah they don't speak to casey she's called them like once in 10 years they haven't seen her since the trial wow yeah Casey has been sued by Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez good for defamation good I don't know what ended up happening with that case that was several years ago i should have looked into it but jesus there was a lot in this case and then more recently like just recently this is in the news right now roy cronk has sued her for defamation the meter reader yeah i'm the thing is like i'm sure neither one of them is going to get any no

they're not going to get anything from her but they they should definitely sue her. And Texas EquiSearch has also sued her because they spent thousands of dollars looking for a girl who was never missing, according to her own defense. Yeah. According to her own defense. Yeah. Yeah. One bright spot out of this is Cayley's Law has been passed in 10 states including florida and kansas and it is a law that makes it a felony to not report your child missing good yeah it's a good i think that's a good law that's a very it's been proposed in two more states so far but so far 10

have passed it and two more are considering it what would be the argument against i don't know i don't know what the argument would be against it i think it sounds like a great law yeah yeah it should be a felony not to report your child missing yeah because what the fuck are you covering exactly exactly the only honest to god and maybe it's just because we've covered so many kidnappings yeah the only time i can think of maybe not recording it is if in the ransom letter they said don't. Yeah. And you're just trying to comply with the letter. Yep.

So that's the case of Casey Anthony. That is so frustrating. Yeah. I hated that. I know. Why'd you do that? It's terrible. It's terrible. It's terrible. So when we first started talking about doing this podcast, you know, I made a list of like six cases that I had to cover.

This was like number two on the list. Yeah. Because I watched everything about it. It's so good. It is. It's such a crazy case. And it's just, oh, it's so frustrating. She's now working as a assistant for a private investigator

and she also lives with the guy that she works for. I don't know if it's a relationship thing or not. So that's what good old Casey Anthony's up to these days. I know they can't see me on the podcast, but I'm making a bit of a face at that. She also tried to start a photography business, but it didn't work out well for her. Really? People didn't want

to have their family photos taken by Casey Anthony? Weird, huh? Strange. Love to have Casey Anthony at my wedding day. Can't imagine anything I'd like more.

I'm glad that I got this case done. I don't want to talk about it again for a while. It just makes me feel mad and I don't like feeling that way. And again, if I left out your favorite detail of this case, I'm very sorry. I tried to keep all of the important stuff in, but there's just so much. I'm angry already. keep all of the important stuff in but there's just so much i'm angry already no there was there were so many details just because this was so long ago yeah i just yeah forgotten yeah some guy has been deposed and sorry this is just out of memory of articles

that i've read recently and now i can't remember what he was being deposed on. But he said in his deposition that Casey Anthony paid Jose Baez in sexual favors. Whoa. For her, yeah, for her legal representation. That he had come to Jose Baez's office for some reason. I can't remember the reason now. that he casey anthony had gotten up from behind uh jose baez's desk and ran out of the room naked oh come on he said it in a legal deposition kristin lots of people say things i mean it's a good story how else would he be paying

for her how else would she be paying for him she She didn't have any money. Oh, he wasn't a public defender. No! Well, I mean, I don't know. Hmm. Okay, now you're making a face that can't be seen on the podcast, and it's the someone for sure gave sexual favors. That is what my face is saying right now. Alright,

I hope you have a happy case for us today. Nope, sure don't. Ah, shit. But first I have to pee Of course you do Okay Y'all ready for this I think we were starting In different parts of that song

Wow there goes our band Fell apart real fast Better stick to the podcast So Got an old timey one Wow, there goes our band. Yeah. Fell apart real fast. Better stick to the podcast. Better. Oof. So, got an old timey one. Excellent.

And, um, hmm. I'm going to save this part for later. What? You said one sentence! I know, I was about to say sentence number two, but then I was like, no, i'll let that be a little surprise okay let's talk i'm gonna save that for later this whole thing let's go get lunch so let's talk about dr linda hazard already suspicious ever that last name hazard well yeah good foreshadowing that last name i gotta say uh one thing i should say right off

the bat she was not actually a doctor uh didn't really have any formal training. No, excellent. But in the early 1900s, she called herself a doctor and she had the respect of a lot of people. Great. She was licensed by the state of Washington as a fasting specialist. And she was able to call herself doctor. I'm going off script here. Because she was kind of grandfathered in. Because in like 1909, they started making rules and regulations. And she'd been practicing for two years by that point. So she had this like loophole. Excellent.

That allowed herself. She's a loophole doctor. Yeah. Got it. Exactly who you want working on you. Yes. But you know, it's not like she puts that on her fucking business card. You just think she's a regular doctor.

You don't know she's a loophole doctor. She doesn't say loophole doctor. No. She just says doctor. Shit. All right. She was a published author. In 1908, she wrote the book

Fasting for the Cure of Disease. Hmm. Linda believed that you could trace diseases back to food. Problem was, people were just eating too much of it in 1909 uh-huh i can't imagine what she'd think about society today shit yeah this was a little before McDonald's. She believed that if you just stop eating for a while. How long? A while.

Oh, excellent question. I love where your head's at. But yeah, the disease would just go away. Oh, okay. I mean, literally like any disease. And I do want to just pause and say, you know, fasting has been around for a very, very long time and I'm not shitting on fasting. I think there's probably, there's definitely a way to do it. Yeah. Dr. Linda Hazard wasn't doing it the right way. Excellent. Okay. So here we go.

Linda was confident in her methods, and other people were too. She would eventually create her own sanitarium, which she called Wilderness Heights. And we talked about sanitariums in the Kellogg Brothers episodes. It's basically like a place you go that's almost like a... It's like a med spa. Yeah, like it's like a retreat and hospital kind of all in one. Okay, what's it called? Wilderness Heights. Okay.

Sounds like a camp to me. See, I think it sounds like an old Gothic estate. Like they always named like... Like that should play after you say the name. Yes. It was located in... In the lightning and thunder it was located in we're making a lot of mouth music on this episode

and we're known for our mouth music it's disgusting it does sound grosser than I intended it to it was located in Olala, Washington Disgusting. It does sound grosser than I intended it to. It was located in Olala, Washington. And tons of people went to Wilderness Heights for Linda's special treatments. Almost changed her name. Stopped myself.

People would come to her with digestive issues or really like any kind of issue. And her cure was pretty simple. Stay at Wilderness Heights for quite a while and I'll feed you. Nothing. So here's what she'd do. And this just, this sounds like the worst. You know, you'd show up and she'd give you a tiny amount of broth a day. Usually it was like the broth from canned tomatoes or like asparagus water. No.

Sometimes if things were kind of crazy, you'd get like a little bit of orange juice. Yeah, you need some vitamins. So you got some vitamins. And that was kind of it for your food for the day. Patients at Wilderness Heights also got daily enemas. Oh, God! I do not want to go here. You haven't even heard the worst of it.

So the enemas lasted for hours. What? Hours and hours of enemas. And during these enemas, Linda used up to 12 quarts of water. Oh my gosh. I've never had an enema, but that seems like too much water. That seems excessive.

Seems like one quart would do the job. I don't know. People also received massages. Great! And by massages, I mean that Linda would beat her fists on your back and forehead. On your forehead?

Yeah, you know. Part of your medical treatment. It's called taponement is what that form of massage is called. Is that a for real word? I've never heard that word in my life. Yeah, it's a real word. Taponement? It's a tapping massage.

Taponement. Oh, no. This was not tapping. More of a fisting massage. Oh, my God. Are you saying all kinds of things that you don't mean to sound dirty until like that? That's what I realized right before I said it that it was going to sound really bad. Went with it anyway.

I admire that. Yeah, so later the nurses at the sanitarium said that the massages sounded like beatings. And apparently one witness, I didn't write this part down, but this sounds horrible and hilarious. She was beating someone for this massage and screaming, evacuate, evacuate. Their bowels? I have to assume. So all that sounds terrible, but a lot of people, many of them very wealthy, were eager to partake in this experience. Why?

They believed in Linda. Linda was like, I heard her described as like the Dr. Phil or Martha Stewart of her day. Like she was just kind of this guru type people really found her very charming and dynamic and knowledgeable she was very confident how thin was she she was pretty thin i'm gonna say i bet i bet she's not eating cheeseburgers back there while they're eating asparagus juice. But she seemed to have unlimited asparagus juice, whereas the other people couldn't even drink all the asparagus juice she wanted. Oh my gosh. Over time, Linda became more and more well-known for her work, and Wilderness Heights grew in prominence.

People really respected what she was doing but not everyone respected what she was doing a few of the locals in olala washington would find patients who'd escaped the sanitarium they'd be like stick thin and they'd be begging for food. Yeah, I bet. Like these rich people who'd come here for this would escape and be like, please, oh my God, do you have bread? Yeah. So instead of calling it Wilderness Heights, the locals nicknamed it Starvation Heights. Clever. Pretty solid.

And they were like, what are these people doing to themselves? My God. Yeah. But obviously the locals were just jealous. Clearly. And they were kind of rude, too, because when people would die under Linda's care, they'd be like, she just starved that person to death. But Linda would be like, no, they were already very sick.

They died of the disease. Duh. They had all the asparagus water they could handle. Oh, my gosh. So in the early days of the sanitarium, a few people were suspicious of Linda. But there would have been a lot more suspicious people if they'd known about How dare you.

Here I am trying to build us something. But there would have been a lot more suspicious people if they'd known a bit about her background. Yeah, loophole doctor so let's get into it let's do i need my seatbelt on for this question not yet not yet all right you do look really like you look really angry right now i'm pretty concerned yeah i didn't know if it was like leftover from casey anthony i it is. I think I've got some like Casey Anthony residue on me. And then I'm trying to wash it off with asparagus water and you're like not having it.

I'm just not coming clean. You need an enema? No! I've got unlimited water. I need 12 liters. Done. So she was born in minnesota in 1867 when she was 18 she got married and eventually had two kids but after a few years of that linda was like oh this kind of sucks kids

this guy i'm leaving all of you and I'm going to Minneapolis. Wow. She just left her kids? This is the mom-themed episode. It is. Shitty moms all around. So she goes to Minneapolis and starts treating patients. And you're not going to believe this, but in 1902, one of her patients died.

From what? Well, it depends on who you ask this pesky coroner examined the body and he's like oh my god this person clearly died of starvation this is terrible and she was starved to death by this woman who's claiming to be a doctor. Oh, gosh. So he goes to the authorities and he's like, guys, we have to do something. Linda just killed this person. And oh, by the way, this person, in case you couldn't tell, I have no idea the gender of the person. I'm just rolling here. This person always wore really expensive rings.

Are they missing? Yep. Hmm. So police are like, okay. They question Linda about the rings, and she's like, what? Rings? What are those? I don't know what you're talking about.

But they can't find any evidence that she stole the rings. They have nothing. So they're like, okay, what about murder? The local prosecutor looked into it and was like, well, we don't really have enough here to prove that this person was murdered. And now we're in this loophole in the legal system because linda is technically not a doctor and she's not licensed to practice medicine fucking loopholes coming at you left and right in this case so he's like we can't hold her responsible here. Yes, you fucking can. That's what the prosecutor said.

He was like, we can't prove murder. And there's this loophole where she's not a doctor. Yeah, so she's just a person who murdered someone. He said, we'll have to let her go. Oh my gosh.

You may be concerned about her romantic life no i wasn't i am now though well good good tell me what she was into kristin bdsm i'd like to say that i'm ending my bdsm streak that doesn't come up in this case? Not one bit. I mean, she's a bit of a masochist, though, it sounds like. Ooh. You know what? It wouldn't shock me. Yeah. Oh, maybe I'm not ending it.

This is a secret BDSM case. She likes beating on people while they evacuate their bowels. If that's not a fetish, I don't know what is. Well, I don't know that she was aroused as she did. I didn't come across that. You don't know that she wasn't? Fair. So sometime after her divorce, she met an amazing man. His name was Sam Hazard.

He was a West Point graduate. Super smart. hazard. He was a West Point graduate. Super smart. Everyone thought he was on the cusp of a fantastic career in the military. Until he got caught misappropriating army money. Turns out Sam was a bit of a con man. Bit of a womanizer. Big fan of drinking. But Linda

was like, this guy gets me. I like this guy! So they got married. There was just one minor speed bump though. Sam was already married. I just knew you were going to say that! Why did you know that? I just knew you were going to say that. So Linda was his third wife. And I couldn't tell if he was married to two other women already at the time or if he was still married to the second wife. If he's his third wife, that means he has been married two times prior. No, I mean like still married. Like didn't divorce either one of the previous wives.

So in 1904, he was brought to trial on bigamy charges. Linda attended the trial with Sam. Meanwhile, Sam's second wife also attended the trial and shot them angry looks

the entire time. Shit. The jury found him guilty. Yeah, you got two wives showing up. Yep. You're looking pretty guilty, buddy. Uh-huh.

He was sentenced to two years in prison, but Linda stood by his side. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When he got out in 1906, she was like, I've got a great idea. Let's move somewhere where nobody knows our names. And that's when they moved out to Washington. Excellent. That's...

Man, I didn't know. We couldn't have been, I mean, was there a lot going on in Washington in 1909? Uh, I think there was a bit going on in Seattle. Okay. But in Olala, where she started this sanitarium, really not much at all. So that's when they started the sanitarium, and that's when Linda took fasting to a whole new level. Mm-hmm. Like I said, a lot of people really respected Linda's work, and they sought her out. In 1908, a Norwegian immigrant named Daisy Hogland was like, I've heard about Wilderness Heights.

I've been having some health issues. Sign me up. Linda's like, great, let's start your fast. me up linda's like great let's start your fast she had daisy fast for 50 days no and of course daisy died yeah no fucking shit yeah she was 38 years old yeah i mean of course she died she had a disease when she got there kristin it is interesting. So I did see some stuff where some people have said Daisy did have cancer. Mm-hmm. It's not Linda's fault.

I'm like, okay, folks. Yeah, maybe she would have died eventually, but, like, she didn't have to die this way. Oh, my God. Weird fun fact for anyone who's in the Seattle area. Her son, Ivar, was three when she died. And he went on to create a famous restaurant chain based out of Seattle called Ivar's Seafood.

Excellent. Or maybe it's Ivar. Either way. Never been there. Neither have I. Let's go. Someone's going to think that's really cool. Let's go to Washington.

You don't like seafood. Do you? Yes, I do. Oh. How dare you accuse me of not liking seafood don't make that face you don't like like 50 of foods that is not true you're like the texture yeah no i love seafood i okay let's go i mean i just like it cooked i don't want your fucking sushi oh that's where i'm getting that yeah because every now and then i'm like oh there's a sushi place down the street you're like that's

interesting sounds fun for you i'll sit there and watch you eat uh so daisy probably wasn't the first victim and definitely wasn't the last gosh Oh my gosh. MD Kills Another Patient. MD was in quotation marks. That's because she's a loophole doctor. I just, like, can you imagine trying to be an actual woman doctor in these times? And, like, you're probably one of, like, five women in the nation who are trying to do it and then you've got this nut job giving people canned tomato water and hours of enemas anyway soon after that you really tell me you think she didn't enjoy giving those enemas yeah you're right she did. I was just so proud of myself that I'd ended my BDSM streak. The thing that I started to say in the second sentence of this that I paused with was I had said a few episodes ago I was done doing serial killers.

This woman's clearly a serial killer. Clearly a serial killer. Whoa. Whoa. She's clearly a serial killer. You. Whoa. She's clearly a serial killer. You're so good at talking. Thank you.

So, soon after all that, a law partner came to Wilderness Heights. He died. Then a magazine publisher came. He died.

A wealthy British guy came by. He died. And weirdly, guy came by. He died. And weirdly left most of his money in his will to Linda. His family received $70. Adjusted for inflation. About $1,800. What'd he leave Linda?

It didn't say, but he was very wealthy. This is unacceptable. Oh, now it's my fault. Yeah, you're giving me, I don't know, a small percentage of the information. Just like his family. Exactly. By this point, the local health department knows what's up. They're on to Linda. They're frustrated as hell.

But here's the thing. She had a license to do what she was doing. She was a fasting specialist. And she was helping people fast. Yeah, but she was killing people doing it. Mm-hmm. Oh, my gosh. If people willingly sought her out for medical advice,

they felt like there wasn't much that the health department could do. Wrong! The head of the health department told his inspectors, look, we can't do anything about grown, sane adults who are choosing to undergo this ridiculous treatment. But if you hear about an infant being under her care, you just say the word. Then we can go in.

That's when the line has been crossed when she kills a fucking kid? I think the thought was a kid can't choose. Yeah. Okay. All right, I gotcha. All right. Bring on the kid.

When's she gonna kill the kid? The other thing... Jesus. You are in a weird mood. Bring on the child murder! I see what Casey Anthony does to you. Yes. Do not like it.

It riles me up, Kristen. You going to be okay? No. I've got an eyelash fighting me over here, too. I can tell. Just falling apart. And you know what? Your eyelashes are bothering you enough right now that you look kind of like you're crying.

So you just. That's actually my allergy. Oh, okay. That I spoke about at the beginning of the podcast. Hey. I am a fucking mess today. I've heard of a cure for allergies. So is it that shit?

Just go upstairs. I would be terrible at that um i have thought about this a lot we're gonna get more into like the effects of it because yeah anyway okay but yeah you and i both man i mean we've heard me on the podcast when i have not had your mind when you haven't had a meal in you know three hours yeah two is kind of my limit i can go like nine hours as long as i'm busy i do it at work all the time i know i'm busy totally fine but if i was sitting around some sanitarium i'd be losing my fucking mind. Yeah. I still don't understand how you do all that at work, but whatever.

Maybe that's because I sit in front of a computer all day. Around this time, a former politician and magazine publisher named Louis Ellsworth Rader reached out to Linda. He wanted to be

under her care so of course she had him fast but does he die no he's cured she cures him did she fucking cure anybody why are people still coming there? Because some people did think she did a great job. My guess, and I didn't read anything about this, but my guess is people who didn't have a ton of money survived okay. And then they were like, oh yeah, she's great. Like, you know, half of it's confidence and she's getting wealthier and wealthier by the minute. Because all these dead people have left a ton of stuff to her and their wills. Oh, my gosh. Because she's just so cool, you know?

So by May of 1911, police got a phone call. Someone was very concerned. There was a starving man being treated by Dr. Hazard. I mean, if that's not a red flag that her name is fucking Dr. Hazard, I can't help these people. I've got news for you, Brady. You can't help any. So even though authority... Turns out fasting is hazardous to your health.

I wish you all could see how proud Brandy is of that. So pleased. So pleased. So they knew, authorities knew that Louis Rader was an intelligent person and that, yes, he'd sought out dr hazard's treatment and they knew there wasn't much that they could do to stop what was happening but they tried okay they were like we know lewis we can talk sense into him so they sought him out in this seattle hotel where he was being treated my understanding is that in these kind of early days,

she didn't send all of her clients to the sanitarium. Like, some of them she treated in places in Seattle. Well, they didn't have room service there at this hotel? Yeah, room service was terrible. They'd just bring you your asparagus water. Oh, yeah, so they go there. They try to talk some sense into him. They're like, hey, man, we're worried about you.

No, he's fucking brainwashed. I'm getting better. Dr. Hazard keeps telling me it just gets worse before it gets better. The fact that I'm feeling so shitty right now is just a sign that I'm about to turn around and be cured. Yep. I mean. Yep. Yes. Yeah. He was like like get out of here yes this woman is saving my life oh my gosh so of course linda finds out what's going on and she is pissed she picks lewis

up and hides him away from authorities later that night she takes him to a different location so they won't know where he is. And she's just, she's so livid that these people are interfering with her important medical work. He died on May 11th, 1911. He was 5'11 and weighed less than 100 pounds. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Fucking gross. That had to Oh my gosh. Yeah. Fucking gross. That had to be just skeleton.

Yeah. She starved people to death. Oh my gosh. By this point, a lot of people are skeptical. I'm sorry. You tried to sell this story in the beginning. Like, oh, she's not getting any joy out of it. She's just doing it for monetary gain. Blah, blah, blah.

She could kill those people a lot sooner than fucking starving them to skeleton status, Kristen. She is enjoying it. You try to make this story less creepy than it is, and I have caught you in your web of lies. Okay, fine. Yeah, I was trying to think of a way to argue it by saying, well, she is a fasting specialist that gives her a loophole. I mean, and it does, this woman, in addition to being a serial killer,

was like the queen of loopholes. Yeah, that's what I said. I mean, look out, there's another loophole coming at ya. So by this point, a lot of people are skeptical of Linda. Shocking. I'm over this lady. Townspeople have seen skeletal-looking patients escape the sanitarium,

and there are all these deaths tied to her but she's still a highly sought out doctor oh my gosh and she and sam they're getting wealthier and wealthier by the day because sam doing what do you think sam's doing i don't know sam's just as big a shithead as she is i mean we'll get more into sam a little bit but like i i really think these two were a good match yeah um because toward the end of their lives a lot of these patients gave their jewelry and land to linda they rewrote their wills so that she'd get a ton of money. So she and Sam are becoming this very wealthy couple. She's got her practice. You know, they're doing their thing.

And when people would eventually die, she usually did the autopsies. Of course she did, because she's a fucking doctor. Nothing strange here. Died of cancer. Oh, look, another death of tuberculosis has nothing to do with the fact that he's 5 11 and weighs 83 pounds yeah this is ridiculous once she was done with the autopsy she'd have him cremated of course yeah because you can't examine the body later that's what they wanted you know know. Oh, my gosh.

I do want to say one patient actually died of a bullet wound. I'm sorry. What? Don't worry. Don't worry. That was for sure a suicide. Of course it was. For sure.

For sure. Says Dr. Hazard, right? Why would you question Dr. Hazard? And the fact that she wound up with a lot of this shit afterward, you know, hey, the people just loved her. People just loved her. Despite all that,

Linda was dynamic. People were drawn to her. She was confident and charming and seemed to know what she was talking about. So she kept getting new patients. Eventually, she got these two very high-profile patients. They were wealthy sisters, and their names were Claire and Dora Williamson. They were British heiresses, and they were hypochondriacs.

Oh, yes. Love it. They saw an ad for Linda's book in a newspaper, and they were like, oh, my God, we have to know more. They got her book, and they were like, sold. We must be treated by this doctor. This is so important. Linda was like, how rich are you? Oh, okay, come on down.

Yeah. Look at that. My schedule just opened up. So she starts seeing these two sisters. She's like, I'll treat you both in Seattle. And, of course, she separates them right away. And the sisters were like, this is amazing. And, of course, we're not going to tell our family about what we're doing

because they're always so rude about our kooky medical schemes. Yeah, of course. The sisters get the full treatment. spooky medical schemes. Of course. The sisters get the full treatment. Tiny doses of vegetable broth, hours upon hours of enemas,

massages that feel like beatings. After a few weeks of that, Linda was like, hey, do you want me to store all your diamond rings for a while? How about I take care of all your real estate deeds, just while you're here? Yeah, that's

just the natural progression of things, right? Well, you don't want to just leave that stuff out in a hotel room. You should hand that over to your doctor. I don't think so. Well, you seem very skeptical. I am.

Eventually, Linda transferred the two sisters from Seattle to Alala. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. I like it. Thank you. But right before that... Alala, I went... Oh, my God. You look even more proud than you were earlier

so right before they were transferred linda's attorney went up to claire and was like oh my god you guys she's still laughing. Still going. Sorry. So right before that transfer happened, Linda's attorney went up to Claire and was like, Claire, can I get you to sign something? It's no big deal. It's a blank stationery. This is where he got the idea. It's nothing big it's just this change in your will that will give linda's sanitarium a monthly stipend oh and it also

says that if you die not that you'll die soon or anything that you want your body to be cremated and that you'd like linda's to supervise that whole process. So Claire signed the document. Great. Excellent. Yes. I love Linda. She is helping me so much.

I'll sign anything she wants me to sign. Something I saw about all this was like, oh, and she was so dynamic that people gave her jewelry and all. And it's like, no, if you starve someone to the point... I'm sorry. If I were living off asparagus water for weeks, I'd sign anything. Yeah. I mean, that's just... That's not necessarily an indicator of your...

I would be willing to bet, though, that she was getting away with it because she was so charming. Oh, sure. They weren't doing it in fear. They were doing it because Linda would never do anything to hurt me. She is here to help me. She is making me better. Whatever Linda says I need to do,'m gonna do it you may change your mind on that later in the story here we go now i'm intrigued you weren't before i was this story's

crazy so claire signs that document then toward the end of april claire and Dora's childhood nanny, Margaret, gets this weird telegram from Claire. It said she needed to come visit them in Washington. So Margaret did. She was in Australia at the time, but she immediately got on a boat. What? How fucking long did that take?

It said it took a week, which I think seems super fast. That seems way too fast. I don't know. It's what it said. When she arrived, Sam Hazard was there. And he was like, I am terribly sorry to tell you this. But Claire is dead and Dora is crazy. Oh my gosh.

Then he takes Margaret to Dora. And there's Dora. This very wealthy heiress, living in a shack, looking like a skeleton. Yeah. And Dora's like, please, please get me out of here. Yeah. But the next day, Dora said, oh, actually, this treatment is really helping me. Never mind. I don't want to

leave what okay so they're threatening her now that's see yeah it didn't say that but to me that's for sure yeah margaret but what's the fuck if she stays there she's gonna die clearly what could they have threatened her with? I don't know. A part of me feels like if you're being starved, like you're, maybe you've lost touch on reality. You've lost touch of everything. And, like, you've signed away everything at that point. Maybe you think that you have no other option. Yeah.

Ugh. So Margaret's like, Dora, come on. You, you clearly want to leave. A little while later, the sanitarium had this big 4th of July celebration. During that celebration, which my understanding of this is it was kind of odd. Normally the patients were kept totally separate from one another, but for this celebration, they were allowed to get together and two patients came up to margaret and they were like help me i'm being held here against my yeah you've got to get me out of here yeah so that to me is what makes me think that not all of them were like oh i just love her and blah blah you know i think some of them were like uh i can't escape.

I'm being held prisoner. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So Margaret's like, what the fuck is wrong with this place? Yeah. She starts looking around, and she realizes that Linda is wearing one of Claire's dressing gowns and her favorite hat. Okay, how did she know that? Well, Margaret had known Claire and Dora their whole lives. I assume she knew they only made one of that dressing gown

and hat. Hey, this was like 19 what's it, 11. They didn't go to Target. All right. I assume it must have been pretty obvious. All right, Margaret. How is it that you're suspicious of Margaret in this story? I'm suspicious

of everyone. You're like, that serial killer, she'd kill a bunch of people, but she wouldn't dare steal someone's dressing gown. So at that point, Margaret's like, goodbye, I'm taking Dora with me. Yeah. And Linda's like,

you can go, but Dora can't. Why? You can't hold her there. Well, actually, Dora gave Linda and Sam power of attorney. Oh, my gosh. So Linda's like, we're now her legal guardians. She's going to spend the rest of her life with us. Which is till Tuesday.

Uh-huh. she's going to spend the rest of her life with us which is till tuesday margaret is like hell to the no but at the same time she's just the childhood nanny she's up against this wealthy doctor and she's like i need backup so she got word out to dora's uncle in portland about what happening. So he bursts onto the scene. Yeah. Finds out okay, Claire is dead. Dora now weighs 60 pounds. Yes. He scoops her up, gives Linda like a thousand bucks, and is like

goodbye forever. Yeah. At this point, I would like you to Google Dora Williamson. Hold on. I can't do it fast enough. It's disgusting. What's her name? Dora.

Dora Williamson. Dora Williamson. Images. Ah! Kristen! That looks like a posed skeleton. Yes. It is

disgusting. I'm sorry. Should I have warned you more before that? Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh! Yeah. That's how she looked. You would think that's a dead person. Yes. Yes. It absolutely looks like it could be

a skeleton that has been propped up it looks like norman bates's mom yes uh so so that's that's what margaret found when she came, I can imagine why she was so alarmed. But she was way wrong about that dress. I mean, Linda wouldn't have taken that dress. So Dora is getting nursed back to health, and all the people around her are horrified by what has happened. This is becoming more and more of an open secret and the british vice consul starts pressuring kitsap county to arrest linda they're like enough is enough yeah but the county is like

this doesn't seem like it's gonna be for sure a win for us this is to be really expensive to prosecute. So Dora's like, fine. This woman killed my sister. She almost killed me. How much money do you need? Yeah, I'll fund the prosecution. And that's exactly what she did. Wow. So that's what finally gets the ball rolling.

Oh, my gosh. Because, you know, this whole... Has she started eating now? Is she back up to, you up to 73 pounds by this point? You know, I wish we could see a picture of her, like a side-by-side picture of her looking normal. I mean, I'm sure if I looked hard enough, I could find it. But I mean, it is just horrifying.

Do you still have it up? Yeah, I still have it up. Oh my God, shut that thing. Soon, Linda was charged with the first- murder of claire williamson great she was outraged clearly she was being put on trial because she was a successful woman oh no that's bullshit you know what kills me is that i hate it when people take things that are real. Oh, that are real, that are really happening to people. Like sexism. Yes.

And they're like, that's the problem here is that it's sexism. It's not that I'm murdering everybody. Yeah. No. Shut up, Linda. She's like, the medical establishment doesn't like that I'm proving them all wrong with my wonderful cures. You're fucking killing people left and right, Linda. Hey, they were sick to begin with.

And there's lots of people. Think of all the people I didn't kill. Show me the people you've cured. And then we'll talk, Linda. Well, okay. She couldn't wait to get on the stand. I'm sure she couldn't. But when her trial started, her lawyer was like,

how about you don't get on the stand because you seem like the type of person who's never going to shut up. Yeah. The prosecution had a pretty strong case. They had Claire's diary entries saying that she wanted to give linda her diamonds but those entries were clearly forged by linda one key witness for the prosecution was essie cameron she was this like super cute nursemaid for some reason the articles made a big deal out of how cute she was i like that you left that in you know i can't it's one of those things where you're researching you're like everyone's mentioning this.

So I guess I should. I must mention it. So just so you know. Super cute milkmaid. Nursemaid? Nursemaid. What kind of fantasy did we stumble into for you? The milkmaid and the loophole doctor.

So she testified to how Claire looked during her final days. She said, and this is so gross. The skin was drawn over her cheekbones. So as to give her an almost skeleton like appearance, her upper lip did not cover her teeth. And she had some difficulty in talking because she could not close her lips. Okay.

As I'm saying that you are doing the weirdest things with your lips, like just making sure I'm imagining it. Well, yeah. I mean, it's like, oh God, it's so gross. She also said that her body was covered in purple spots. Oh my God. Brandy, stop. I want to get a clear picture

I mean it's just like that picture of Dora it's like oh I'm sorry what I was doing was weird you were really struggling with it this is why we need to have video okay that is fucking creepy quit doing it what what This is why we need to have video. Okay, that is fucking creepy. Quit doing that.

What? What, Kristen? You look like an evil chipmunk. So Essie tells this horrible story. She's like, Claire's body was covered in purple spots. You could feel her backbone by touching her what i know you can touch through her body yes fuck that what no it's the worst thing you ever said on this podcast

what it took your back bone to her stomach that's what Essie said that is the worst oh god the most important part of this is that Essie was super hot when she said it.

I love that you are so disturbed by that. Grace said she could touch her backbone by touching in front of her stomach. I know, it's terrible. It's disgusting. Oh my god. And now we're both touching our stomach. Yeah, it's disgusting. Oh no.

I can't even imagine. No! I mean, you're basically you're just a skeleton at that point. That is what that means. Yes. I mean, you're basically, you're just a skeleton at that point. That is what that means. Yes. So the defense did cross-examine her, but they didn't do much damage. I mean, she was solid.

What? What? Solid with the backbone thing? Okay. Margaret, the nanny, also testified. She told them the whole story about getting the cable, rushing to Washington,

and about all the weird and horrifying things she saw. But one of the most important parts of her testimony was when she told them about seeing Claire's dead body, which Linda had shown her when it was embalmed.

What? Wait, why was it embalmed if they cremated her? I don't know. I assume they cremated her afterward. And I didn't write down the embalming part, so maybe I just made that up. But she did see the body. All right.

Here's part of that exchange. Prosecutor, did you see the body? Margaret, I saw a body. A little while later. Prosecutor, did you recognize the body as that of Claire's? Margaret, not in the least. She weighed like half what she normally weighed. She was totally unrecognizable.

Oh my gosh. The defense did their best to be like, look, Claire was very ill. It was terribly sad. She and her sister were both ill and sometimes ill people die. Dr. Hazard was doing her best. No.

Wrong! Then the prosecution brought in a cashier from the local bank who was able to testify about all the money that the hazards were taking in and where it was coming from um so now we're going to stop and talk about sam hazard get authorities and i was supposed to say got it that's what my brain said mouth didn't come through so the prosecution and authorities felt very strongly that sam and linda were in this together like maybe if not 50 50 i mean but bottom line like he'd been doing shady stuff with them with the army funds back in the day yeah clearly he brought

some of that here but the bottom line was they didn't feel like they had enough on him to guarantee a conviction so they just really focused on her okay they also called in the hazards personal attorney who'd drawn up a lot of paperwork for all these sudden will changes and they also called in a bunch of medical doctors and essentially what they all said was yeah it sounds like claire was starved to death and by the way when you're starving you're not just super hungry you lose your grip on reality of course you'll sign stuff over your weekend in every sense of the word. So then the defense would try to point out like,

hey, hey, hey, these doctors that they're all calling to the stand, they're not trained in alternative medicine. They don't know what they're talking about when it comes to fasting. And oh, by the way, isn't it possible that Claire died from some other random disease? And, you know, the doctors would usually have to admit that, like, well, yeah, I guess it's possible that this other thing could have caused it, but come on. Eventually, the prosecution rested and the defense made their case.

In their opening statement, the defense made the case that Claire had always been sickly and she was bound to die young and hey she and dora could eat as much as they wanted the defense attorney said we believe the evidence will show that during the time these girls were under dr hazard's treatment they received care such as the tenderest mother No. No. Yeah. Only if their mother was Casey Anthony. Oh! The first witness for the defense, this is so weird, was Johan Ivar Hugland.

He said that he brought his son to see Linda like three times a week for treatments. And that he'd seen Claire and that she looked fine to him. So. That name might sound somewhat familiar. For some reason, the prosecution was not allowed to ask how johan had come to know linda if he had he would have made it clear that he came to know linda through his wife daisy who was believed to be the first person that linda killed in washington and for some reason i

i guess this guy really believed that daisy died not because of Dr. Hazard's treatment. He brought his son to her. Oh, my gosh. Other witnesses testified to Claire looking fine. Another witness from the State Board of Medical Examiners was like, yeah, Linda is licensed to practice osteopathy and fasting here. She had two years of practice before 1909, so she was grandfathered in. No, she doesn't have a medical degree. No, she hasn't passed any exams.

But none of that is necessary because she was grandfathered in. So she's allowed to do what she's doing. She's just allowed to kill fucking people. Well, he didn't say that. She's just allowed to kill fucking people. Well, he didn't say that. Linda had a lot of defenders, including members of her staff. One nurse, Nellie Sherman, said that Claire and Dora restricted their own eating. It wasn't Linda who told them not to eat.

They provided them with tons of food. Claire and Dora were just very picky eaters, if you want to know the truth. So her testimony was really strong for the defense. But then the prosecutor takes over, and he starts asking her questions. And it gets really heated really fast, because it's clear he thinks she is full of shit.

Yeah. And she starts talking in circles. And it's getting kind of weird. Until all of a sudden, the prosecutor goes, whoa. Turns to the judge and he goes, I need a recess. What? So the jury files out of the room. And he says, Judge, Mrs. Hazard has been signaling to the witness to direct her testimony.

What? Of course, Linda denied it. Of course she did. But from that point on, the judge was like, yo, bailiff, it's your job to make sure Linda isn't making faces at the witnesses. So the jury comes back in and Nellie continues to be evasive and just crumbles on the stand. I want to say, I don't know how often this happened, but I know at least one other time where the prosecutor was like, she's telling the witness what to do. Like she like would hold, you know, the number of fingers up on her hand for like, you know, what time did you come into the room? Oh, two o'clock.

She'd put two fingers up, you know for like you know what time did you come into the room oh two o'clock she'd put two fingers up you know it oh my gosh yeah it's tough to just turn off that master manipulation so that kind of sucked for the defense but then they called an ambulance driver from butterworth and sons what's that it's a funeral, you know, nothing to do with syrup. You got me excited. It's like when people were really hungry, finally you get the pancakes. And then you die. Oh, God, pancakes sound so good. We've got to wrap this up so we can eat pancakes after talking about this.

So this ambulance driver had signed as a witness to Claire's change to her will. He was like, yeah, Claire was alert. I saw the whole thing, witnessed it. Yeah. But then the prosecutor stands up and he's like, man, Linda does a lot of business with Butterworth and Sons, right? And the guy's like, not really. And the prosecutor says, no. If you had to guess how many cases have come into your hands, thanks to Linda Hazard in like the last three years. What would you guess?

And the guy's like, uh, between four and six? No. So then, with the defense shouting, objection, objection, objection, the prosecutor reads a list of dead patients, all of whom had been buried or cremated by Butterworth and Sons. How many? How many? I don't know. Like, the source I read just had a list that just, like,

ellipsised off into the sunset. This is unacceptable. Here's the thing. It's really hard to know how many people she killed. Oh my gosh. All these different sources have a different number. Of course. Sorry, I feel like I really bummed you out. You really bummed me out. Sorry. It was 27. Eventually, the jury went into deliberation. What do you think they found? Not guilty.

They found her guilty. Wow. Of manslaughter. Oh, come on. You sounded like a meatball from Aqua Team Hunger Force. You're my favorite character from Aqua Team Hunger Force. Thank you for channeling it. His name is fucking Meatwad, by the way.

Oh, excuse me. Meatball. Oh, how ridiculous. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. So, the jury found her guilty of manslaughter. Her medical license was revoked. As she awaited sentencing, two more of her patients died of starvation. Of course they did.

Linda Hazard was sentenced to two to twenty years in prison. That's it? I guess it's just one person that she was convicted of. And it's just manslaughter. She was released after two years. Returned over there to Whispering Heights or whatever. Started fucking starving people again. Well, the following year, the governor of Washington gave her a full pardon.

What? Okay, this is what drives me crazy. No. Not into it, governor. He gives her the full pardon. okay this is what drives me crazy no not into it governor he gives her the full pardon my question why money big campaign contributions who the hell knows because i you know i love newspapers.com where you go in and look at all the old timey stuff the only thing i could find was basically like an Associated Press type of article where it was just like oh hey everybody

the governor gave Linda Hazard a full pardon and we all know what she did. Gotta be money right? I guess. I mean I don't know. I couldn't find out. Maybe he really liked her enemas. That's impossible. I mean what I read people were screaming the whole

time. What? Got something to say about the former governor of Washington. I'm just saying, Kristen, you've told us a lot about fetishes on this podcast. An enema fetish? I Google that shit, I guarantee you it exists. No, no, I don't. I'm sure you're right. I'm sure you're right I'm sure it exists

God forbid the images would pop up though Kimmy where's the skeleton you made me look at Okay let's try Oh god Anima fetish Anima fetish is that what I'm looking at Ew I can't see what I'm looking up? Yeah. Okay. Ew! Oh my god!

I can't see what you're looking at, but your reaction was amazing. The no shit first hit is enema fetish porn videos on Pornhub. Duh! Oh my god! What the fuck did you think was going to come up, Kristen? Nothing? Sorry, zero results? Sorry, it's too disgusting sorry your child your parent safety controls are on i don't know oh ew okay oh my god so first first hit that porn hub one yeah second hit enemas how to medical fetish library medical toys number three a guide to enema play

i don't know why you're shocked by this kristin you're the one that has introduced us to the wide world of fetishes and now you're like oh dear me i can't imagine. Heavens to Betsy. I honest to God, this week I was like, thank God I didn't do another sexual one. You're the one who is telling me that this has turned sexual. Nope. No, you're not. I'm not the one saying that. You're the one that presented us this case.

I can't believe that i googled it oh jesus okay um you're gonna think about that for a while because that's disturbing i'm sorry i'm like i i did not know i really did not know i. Okay, I know logically everything can be a fetish. Anything can be a fetish. But I really did not think it would be such a thing that like. It's on a mainstream porn website. Yes. I thought you'd have to do like a deep dive, like 14 pages into Google.

Not like, here's your top hit. There's tons of people out here loving it. Just like you. Oh, God. What kind of ads do you think I'm going to get? It's like fleet enemas in bulk. So the governor gives her the full pardon, but he didn't reinstate her medical license. Well, thank God.

I'm sure she'll find a loophole, though. Oh. So fresh out of prison, Linda and Sam moved to New Zealand, where she kept on trucking. She wrote another book, treated more patients, made a bunch of money. And by 1920, they looked at each other and they were like, you know what?

We should move back to Olala, Washington. And we should build a great sanitarium there. So they did. No! I think this shows what fucking psychos they were.

Yeah. After all that, they're all the way over in New Zealand. They're like, let's go back to the scene of the crime sam and linda created the sanitarium they called it you know why huh because she's a fucking serial killer and wanted to be where her kills were yeah oh that's totally what i believe that's totally what I believe. That's absolutely what I believe. Because I think that if you really believed in what you were doing, and you'd been convicted of manslaughter, there'd been all this stuff,

you wouldn't want to go back. You'd want to start over somewhere else. Yeah. Mm. Mm-mm. So they called it a school of health. Mm. And they put an autopsy room in the basement.

Oh, my gosh. You know, just in case. That's, yeah, some forward thinking. It had 100 beds. Oh, my gosh. But weirdly, not a lot of people wanted to come. No fucking shit. Mm-hmm.

But a few did. Did they die? A few of them died yeah i bet eventually eventually in 1935 the sanitarium burned down three years later linda died of starvation yes Yes. Yes. So it's hard to say how many people she killed for obvious reasons. But, I mean, I kind of looked around. The general guess is like around 14. But I feel like that seems way low. That's way low. Yeah.

14? No. The guesses are all over the map. Times that by 10. Okay. I can't. Don't you think? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I think it's, my guess, my honest to God guess would be like 50. I bet it's more than that. Maybe. I mean, I wouldn't argue with any number. I would probably argue with a dozen. I'd argue with more than that. Maybe. I mean, I wouldn't argue with any number. I would probably argue with a dozen. I'd argue with 14. Man.

Because you know that she had to be killing people in New Zealand. How did you hear about this case? I have never. I was on this BDSM website. No, I don't remember how I came across it. Oh, my gosh. That's nuts. Yeah. That's nuts. Yeah, that's terrible.

Yeah. And I just... That case is nuts. And to... I kind of see why... This is terrible. I kind of see why investigators were so hesitant about this because they felt like we're never gonna get her yeah and then they finally do get her and it's for two years

and then she's released with a pardon that is nuts that sucks yeah this has been a really dark one. Yeah. Oh, God. Tell us a joke, Kristen. A joke? I can't. What? You have no idea what a joke is? I can't. I couldn't possibly.

Well, you opened me up to the big, dark, scary world of enema fetishes, and now I can't think of anything else. Anything else but enema fetishes and now i can't think of anything else that's disgusting oh my gosh speaking of enema fetishes oh good my dad oh my god no not speaking of enema okay but my dad he'll love that has made a donation to the podcast oh my gosh hold on let me pull up the picture because i don't have it with me is it diamond rings is it uh some real estate it is a book okay you heard about the book your mom got us. Mm-hmm.

So he's like, he texts me and he's like, I've had this book for like 10 years thinking it's the same book that your mom got us. But this is 501 most notorious crimes. That's five times more. Oh, man. So he has donated it to the podcast. Look at my buddy Charlie there. Why 501? 501, Kristen?

I mean, come on, alligator arms. Okay, that sounds really intriguing. So I did think of something that I needed to say on the podcast. Well, I'm not done talking about my dad yet. Oh, sorry. Thanks, Dad, for that donation. Okay, now you can go. I like how you're posed like you're here for a Glamour Shots portrait.

Thanks, Dad. Yes, thank you for the donation to the podcast. Last week, we talked about To Catch a Predator. predator yeah and i told you about the inside joke so i told you about the inside joke my family has we enjoy that show and we always laugh about how when the cop dressed as a child lures the guy into the house she's always like come on in i just made some tea to the point that um anytime someone knocks on the front door you know we'll always shout to each other come on in i just made some tea it's like a hilarious joke my sister yeah listens to the podcast and she commented on her facebook page oh my god that is such an inside joke I never knew why you said

that that is hilarious I think that's hilarious I couldn't believe it I couldn't believe it you would not believe we've been doing this for like 10 years that's amazing years we've been saying come on in I just made some tea and Kyla I guess just thought well first of all we do always have tea always it's always I mean your family is always drinking tea and you know we pretty much always have just made it it's always the freshest tea we do if i can say something about your family and say you guys have the freshest tea boy that seems like you know when you have to give somebody a compliment you're like god what to say about this douche. Those pits people, they have fresh tea.

Fresh tea. That's right. Yeah. Man. And they won't let you go a second without having some. I mean, if you even like try and get three steps in the house without a beverage, they will force it upon you. This is true. To the point that, so my mom is notorious.

Because when you and Zach were last over, I remember, so you've been trained since childhood. Oh, yeah. When Sherry Pitts asks you, do you want to- You take the beverage. Yeah, you just take it because otherwise you'll be harassed. Yeah. Zach.

I didn't warn him. Critical error. Yeah. He said, no, thank you. Yeah. Ooh. Big mistake. Which was...

Yes. Huge. So we walked by with all the beverages. No, he was harassed until he submitted. Until he was finally like, yes, great, I'll take a beverage. Oh, great, now that you mention it, I am parched.

But I've tried not to do that because we make... No, you fucking do it too, Kristen. We had, okay, so I had some guys come out to work on our AC. Yeah. And you know, it's crazy hot out. Yeah. And I offered them a beverage. declined and i was like are you sure i've got gatorade in the fridge and they were like no no we're good we're good thank you

and i had to stop physically yes because because i kept like i'd look outside it was like no it was it was hot yeah it was a heat wave they didn't have drinks out there yeah and i was just i'm getting worked up just thinking about it sherry pits came out no she didn't because here's the thing i went to the fridge i was like i don't care that they said no. I'm just going to take it to them. And then I thought, no means no. So I didn't. No means no. Yeah. I think it's amazing that your mom is so concerned with everybody's hydration levels.

It's a great hostess quality. It is. I mean, you're never gonna go hungry no never you're never gonna go thirsty never yeah you might have to force feed yourself something but there's no starvation in the pitts house but you know what i thought was the cutest thing when we went to that charity event the other day was that you know so this we went to this charity event with with your family and kyla was kind of running it yeah yeah do you know what i'm gonna say so kyla comes up we're all kind of chatting kyla's kind of done

with her you know part and your mom just kind of disappears for a second uh-huh and she returns with a glass of water for kyla kyla didn't ask for it didn't nothing and there your mom was with this glass of water for her i thought it was so nice well and it was like it's moments like that that you're like oh that's what i should have done just then because kyla kyla was clearly thirsty yeah and mom also like gave her, you know, some appetizers and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. It was, I mean, I strive to find the cherry pits inside me.

Speaking of my parents. Yes. So while we were at that charity thing, we told my dad, who has been mentioned on the podcast before. You know, we give mom all the compliments. We make fun of my dad. But we were like, dad, we need to have you on the podcast before you know we give mom all the compliments we make fun of my dad but we were like dad we need to have you on the podcast yeah and he of course was like all right you know do i get to just sit there and we're like no you have to bring a case so he's kind of like okay a few days later my mom texts me and she was like did you guys really invite him to be on the podcast? And I was like, yeah.

Yeah. She was shocked. She thought he had made it up. I think he would make a great guest. I think people would find him very... What's the word, Kristen? I don't know. He is very funny.

He's great. He's a character. I think it would be a very very funny. He's great. He's a character. It would be, I think it would be a very entertaining episode. Yes. Yeah. A very special episode. Yes. All right.

Well, if you enjoyed this very special episode, let's be real. Every episode we put out a special Kristen. Except for that one you messed up where you only talked for like eight minutes. Fuck off. I only say that because I know you're sensitive and I'm a jerk. So, if you enjoyed this episode,

be sure to find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. Head on over to iTunes. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review.

And then join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

For this episode, I got my info from Smithsonian Magazine, HistoryLink.org, The Kitsap Sun, and the book Starvation Heights by Greg Olson. And I got my info from Crime Library, Biography.com, Crime Museum.org, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.