Let's Go To Court! - 36: The Scottsboro Boys & the Dangers of Cheerleading in Texas

Episode Date: October 3, 2018

Kristin starts us off with one of the trials of the Scottsboro Boys, a group of nine African American boys and young men who were accused of gang raping two white women in 1931. Their cases are infuriating and upsetting. The Scottsboro Boys were nearly lynched before their trials. At every turn, the justice system was unjust — so unjust that outside groups stepped in to help the young men. Then Brandi lightens things up with a story about the dangers of high school cheerleading. Wanda Holloway always wanted to be a cheerleader, but her dad wouldn’t let her. So when Wanda gave birth to her daughter Shanna, she knew exactly what Shanna would grow up to be — a cheerleader! But when it looked like another girl might take Shanna’s spot on the squad, Wanda did what any concerned parent would do. She hired a hitman. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Scottsboro Boys,” Famous-trials.com “Who were the Scottsboro Boys?”, PBS.org Scottsboro Boys, wikipedia In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The Cheerleader Murder Plot” by Mimi Swartz, Texas Monthly “Cheerleader Plot Tape: Go For It” by Janet Cawley, Chicago Tribune “The Texas Cheerleader Case: A Daughter’s Painful Memory” by Anne Land and Kristen Mascia, People Magazine “Wanda Holloway Trial: 1991” encyclopedia.com “The Pom-Pom Hit: When Texas Was Struck By a Cheerleader Mom’s Murder Plot” by Jake Rossen, Mental Floss

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about the trials of the Scottsboro Boys. And I'll be talking about the dangers of being a cheerleader in Texas.

Oh my. This is really kind of like a series I'm doing on, you know, like warnings about things that could happen to you. Because I talked about the dangers of the PTA last week. Talking about the dangers of being a cheerleader this week. I think maybe the reason I like these stories is because I run no risk of falling into either of these categories. Right. I think if you tried to sign up for some PTA, Kristen, that would be alarming.

Because you have no children. For sure a pedophile. Kind of like people who go to children's movies. No! As adults, without kids. Shut up! Know anybody like that? I'm still going to go see Mary Poppins when it comes out.

Okay. You'll be on the list. Do you know anything about mine? So far, no. It's going to be terrible. Is it a really sad one? Yeah. And the irony is I had a really sad one in mind.

And you're like, I don't want to do that. It's too sad. So you did an even sadder one? Yes. What? And you're like, I don't want to do that. It's too sad. So you did an even sadder one?

Yes. What? So I was going to do the Central Park Five. Oh, gosh. I know. I know. And I watched the documentary and I was like, God, this sucks. It's a great documentary.

It's just a sad story. It's a great story. It's terrible. Then I started getting into all the weird Donald Trump stuff with it, where he put the ad in the newspaper calling for the death penalty. And then I found out, which I didn't realize this, I found out that he still claims that they're guilty and stands by what he did. And I got so angry. I was like, I can't do this one this week.

Maybe another time. Thank you, goodbye. Thank you, goodbye. Thank you, goodbye. And for some strange reason, I had remembered the Scottsboro Boys case. Uh-huh. Because it reminded me that the Central Park Five case was a case of five men. I think four of them were black, one Hispanic. Yeah.

Who were falsely accused of raping a white woman. Yes. And this is a case where young black men were accused of raping white women. Yeah. So I was kind of like thinking about like, oh, yeah, that's a similar case, but I think it had a positive outcome. Why did I think this? You thought it was going to be real uplifting?

For some reason, I thought it had a positive outcome fuck i was wrong oh no spoiler alert god am i gonna cry maybe maybe not i think the thing i noticed so i researched this yesterday and it was very depressing but the thing i noticed is that like when i'm just zeroing in on one person who's been falsely accused for some reason i get sadder because you get to know more about that individual person that's true um the scottsboro boys were a group of nine men and i think just because of the sheer number you don't get to know them as well so but it's still terrible i mean yeah yeah you'll probably cry i don't know to know them as well, but it's still terrible. I mean, yeah, you'll probably cry.

I don't know. I cried everything. It's terrible. It's fine. Buckle up. I know. I'm sorry. It's going to be bad.

Okay. It's March 25th, 1931. We're on the Southern Railroad freight train going from Chattanooga to Memphis. Where's that? Tennessee. You didn't think I knew where Chattanooga to Memphis. Where's that? Tennessee. You didn't think I knew where Chattanooga was. Of course I knew you knew where it was, but some of our listeners might not. Oh, that's right.

We've got people outside of the U.S. Okay. So we're in the midst of the Great Depression, and a lot of people, particularly young men, would go hoboing. So they'd hop on the freight trains, hop off at the next town looking for work, or, you know, just like trying to escape boredom. Yeah. On the train were a few young black men and a few young white men,

and also these two young white women. At some point on this train ride, something happens between these two groups. I saw different sources put this a few different ways. By the way, I should shout out Famous Trials. The vast majority of the info I'm going to share here comes from FamousTrials.com. One source I saw said that the white boys tried to push one of the black boys off the train and yelled, this is a white man's train. Another source said that one of the white boys walked across the top of a tank car and stepped Mm-hmm. white boys lose this fight they're forced off the train so they're pissed and they're racist assholes so they walk to the nearest station master and they say hey we were just assaulted

by a gang of black men and they're on this train headed this direction please help us so the station master of course is like okay that that can't happen yeah he wires ahead to let the next guy know what's going on meanwhile the black guys on the train think whatever happened is done you know but when the train stops at paint rock alabama they were greeted by an angry mob of armed white guys. They grabbed every black young man they could find on the train. In total, they captured nine young men. They tied them together, threw them onto a truck bed, and drove them to jail in Scottsboro.

Wow. So this group of nine young men became known as the scottsboro boys and that's how they've always been known and so for some reason so for that reason boys i always thought they were like young kids and some of them were one of them was like 12 one was 13 i think one was 16 but a lot of them were like 18 or 19 yeah and i'll be damned if I'm going to call a 19-year-old black man a boy. So you're going to hear a lot of young men. You're going to hear a lot of guys. What about a 31-year-old white man?

Would you call him a boy? No, I find that gross. In case you guys are wondering, Norton likes to call himself a boy sometimes. I've been trying to break him of this habit for years. I think it's gross and weird. And he knows I want him to stop, so he has like really, he sticks with it.

So this mob has just rounded up all these young black men but they also notice the two white women victoria price and ruby bates and they're like whoa what are you two doing here hoboing on a train with a bunch of black men and that's when one of the women said bunch of black men and that's when one of the women said we've just been raped oh my gosh by 12 of these men what they had pistols and knives and it was horrifying thank god you're all here to save us later the two women are brought to the jail to make this formal accusation and victoria looks at the nine men and she's like yeah these six guys right here these six guys raped me and so the guard is like okay so these six guys raped victoria obviously that means the other three raped ruby case closed what uh but what were they doing on the train in the first place

ruby and what's her face good question they weren't right what do you mean well i mean they wouldn't be hoboing i mean so there are lots of different theories uh- theories as to why they were doing this um they were rumored to be prostitutes okay one thing you should know is that the man act at this time made it unlawful to cross state lines to do an immoral act yeah i'm trying to recite this from memory so i know at one point on this journey they'd been arrested for adultery i mean like they'd been they'd been up to some stuff okay but you know if they'd been raped they they're not in trouble people were outraged obviously hundreds of white men gathered around the scottsboro jail and they're seething. They want to lynch all nine of the Scottsboro boys on the spot.

They're like, these victims were white women. And the only people who can rape white women are white men. What? Stop. Just a little joke. But for real. So things are getting really ugly. It's now two episodes we've made rape jokes on, Kristen.

Yeah. We do not condone rape when rape is not humorous, just for the record. And I will say, my rape jokes, the butt of my rape jokes are the rapists. Yes. I will say that. So things are getting really ugly. And that's when the Alabama governor steps in. He's like, I'm sending in the National Guard to protect these suspects because this is America and they deserve justice in front of an all white jury.

Twelve days after they were arrested, the first trial begins. Twelve days? Yeah. What? What? How can you do any kind of investigation in that amount of time? Oh, well, they were pretty sure they knew what happened. So that's an excellent question.

Because it seems way too fast, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, speedy trials and all that, but damn. It can be too fast. Here's how fast it was. 12 days, I heard. I know. So these guys, they were not permitted to have contact with their family.

They had no idea they had the right to an attorney. Yeah. family uh they had no idea they had the right to an attorney yeah and they only met their attorneys like a little like minutes before the trials yeah so that was obviously plenty of time to mount a great defense yeah so the first trial begins not that it was necessary the media and the general public had already decided that these guys were totally guilty. I'm sorry, I don't mean to keep interrupting. No, go for it. Were they represented by white attorneys? Of course. Yeah. They didn't give a shit. You're going to find out how much they didn't give a shit.

Here's one newspaper headline from the time. here's one newspaper headline from the time all negroes positively identified by girls and one white boy who was held prisoner with pistols and knives while nine black fiends committed revolting crime okay first of all that's a second my god yeah that's terrible yeah so the scottsboro boys could not afford an attorney luckily this was america they had two attorneys appointed for them and these dudes were absolute rock stars of the legal profession that's sarcasm i'm sensing steven roddy was a real estate attorney from tennessee yeah so great he's so he's from out of state doesn't know alabama law yeah and he's a fucking real estate attorney um he showed up to the first day of the trial so drunk that he couldn't walk straight.

Neat. Yeah. The other was Milo Moody, who was in his 70s, had a terrible memory, and hadn't tried a case in years. I couldn't find out how many years, but one source said it had been decades. Wow. Yeah. Initially, the defense was like, yeah, hey yeah hey prosecution if you want to try these guys all at once we're down for that for that let's just knock this thing out hmm but the

prosecution was like no we want this thing to really stick we don't want any appeals to muddy this thing up so we'll do this in groups the first trial begins and of course an all-white jury is selected and the courthouse is packed it's standing room only and the audience is a bunch of angry titillated white people who are like just hanging on every word. Yeah. Milo and Steven did their best. When it came time. I'm sure. When it came time to cross-examine Victoria Price, they did for a few minutes.

But that was so exhausting that by the time it was time for the two doctors to testify about the women's injuries, the defense attorneys were like, we're not going to cross examine them. What? Mm hmm. When Ruby Bates testified, her testimony didn't quite match up with,

with what Victoria Price said. She was clearly not, I'm going to use the word enthusiastic. Like she just, she didn't seem that into it. Did they question her about the inconsistencies? I'm guessing no. No.

Neat. The defense only called the defendants up as witnesses. And that went about as well as you would expect. Six of them said, of course, we didn't rape these girls. We didn't even see these girls on the train. But the three others said, yeah, the gang rape did happen. But it was all the other guys who did it. It wasn't me.

And of course, those three guys later said, I only testified that way because I was being threatened. You know, I was being beaten. I thought that was the only way out. Wow. The defense didn't even bother making a closing argument. What? I know.

I didn't know that that was the kind of thing you could just forego. You just choose that? Yeah. Wow. The jury found them guilty. Uh, shocker. Yeah, I know, I know. Amazing.

Meanwhile, the second trial was already starting. And when the first jury came back with their guilty verdict, the crowd cheered so loudly that the second jury had to have heard that. Excellent. Yeah. That's really great, too. Man, these boys are getting such a fair trial. Yeah, yeah.

Ultimately, four trials took place. Three of them lasted a day, start to finish. Wow. In each case, the defendants met their attorneys shortly before the trial began. So there was no time to strategize, no time to talk things through, and in most cases, they weren't able to get word out to their families. In those trials, eight of the nine young men were sentenced to death. The exception was Roy Wright, who was only 12. He got a mistrial.

was only 12 he got a mistrial so get this he got a mistrial because even though the prosecution said hey he's only 12 we want a life sentence we don't want to we don't want to put him to death 11 out of the 12 jurors wanted him dead what they wanted to kill a 12-year-old. Ugh! But since they couldn't reach an agreement, he got a mistrial. Mistrial. So, a lot of people expected the NAACP to step in and help with the defense. But rape in the South, and especially this one, was such a hot issue that they initially decided not to touch it. Instead... was such a hot issue that they initially decided not to touch it. Instead, the NAACP decided it was too hot button of a subject for them to step in. And I'm, they eventually did. Okay.

And I'm a little nervous to say that because that's what was said on famoustrials.com. I'm sure other sources might have a slightly different version. But the bottom line is that the first group to step in and help the Scottsboro Boys was the Communist Party. The Communist Party? Yeah. Yeah.

That's weird. Here's the thing. They were like, hey, the Scottsboro Boys are clearly innocent. They didn't get a fair shake here. Let's help them. It's the right thing to do.

And if black people and northern liberals hear about the good work that we're doing and want to join the Communist Party, hey, join the party. Oh, my gosh. So in January of 1932, the Scottsboro Boys appealed their cases to the Alabama Supreme Court. Mm-hmm. And they lost. Of course they did. Mm-hmm. The court voted six to one that they'd been treated fairly.

Who's the one? I mean, like... I have no idea. Yeah, there's not anything to that. Okay, where does it go from there? Well, here's the thing this this whole thing is insane i feel like any one of these trials could have been an episode on yeah uh so they they said look you guys had adequate legal counsel and the judges affirmed

seven out of the eight death sentences the one they The one they didn't affirm was Eugene Williams' case. They said, hey, he was 13 when this happened. Maybe he shouldn't have been tried as an adult. Uh, maybe. Yeah, maybe. So that was depressing. But nobody gave up. They were like, you know what?

We need to get this case the hell out of Alabama. Yeah. We need to take this all the way to the Supreme Court. So the Supreme Court examines the facts of the case. They have to determine whether the defendant's due process has been violated and essentially did they really have competent legal counsel? Okay, so I feel like due process

for sure because how quickly they went to trial they didn't know their attorneys Yep. And

not to mention the environment they were in. Yeah. There was an angry mob around them at all times. Yeah. Ridiculous.

Yes. So the Supreme Court is like, hmm, well, they were illiterate children who were being threatened by a lynch mob, kept out of contact with their families. They had no idea they had a right to an attorney. They only had access to their shitty attorneys for like two and a half seconds before their trials so yeah for sure they should all get new trials oh my gosh thank goodness by the way that was a seven to two vote oh two yeah oh my gosh um one thing i will say in another source i saw i saw that said, hey, they had competent legal counsel. But it was everything else that got violated.

They basically said their attorneys were fine, but the attorneys didn't have enough time with them. Okay. Which. There may have been a time that their attorneys were fine. Like maybe that Moody guy was fine 50 years ago. Or maybe that other guy would have been fine in Tennessee on a real estate case. Exactly. But in this case.

Yeah. Yeah. So now the retrials are starting. Here's an interesting tidbit. At this point, the NAACP does decide they want to get involved. So now the retrials are starting. Here's an interesting tidbit. At this point, the NAACP does decide they want to get involved. So they said, hey, we want to step in here, and we want to provide you with an awesome defense attorney.

We'll pay for Clarence Darrow to represent you. So we've talked about Clarence Darrow before on the podcast. He represented Loeb and Leopold in... Nobody says it that way. Who? Leopold and Loeb. It is 100% always said Leopold and Loeb. No one is like, do you remember the case of Loeb and Leopold? You know what?

It sucks you're right. So he was super famous. He also did the Swopesopes monkey trial case yeah uh we're gonna talk about that in kansas oh yeah what evolution it all happened in seven days no for real do you for real they don't teach that in kansas do you remember being taught it in high school i remember the way we were taught it was there was no test on it yeah there was no quiz yes and it was like i remember the biology teacher was super sweaty and he had someone else come in and present it from a christian perspective and was like hey you can believe in both you can

believe in the bible and the teacher had the choice if they were going to do that at all. Yeah. Insane. It's nuts. Evolution is insane. That's what you're saying. Anyway, sorry, not to go on an evolution tangent.

We should do that one sometime. Oh, yeah. So, first we'd have to learn what evolution is exactly, though. Yeah. Besides the devil trying to get you down. So, the Scottsboro Boys were like, no, we're going with the Communist Party on this one. By that point, the Communist Party... So, they said no thank you to the NAACP?

So my understanding was at this point they had these two options. They've been working with the Communist Party this whole time. And they were like their saviors, right? Because no one had. That's who took them to the Supreme Court. Yeah. So I think by that point they were like, we're going to stick with this group. And I'd also heard from another source that the NAACP and the Communist Party worked together at some point.

So I don't know that it was strictly like, you guys suck. We're going with these guys. I gotcha. So they had already picked the attorney for the next round of trials. His name was Sam Leibowitz, and he was known as the next Clarence Darrow. Wait, but if you can have Clarence darrow or the next clarence darrow don't you pick clarence darrow okay let me tell you this dude's stat and you tell me what you would do okay he was a criminal attorney all right um he had no connections to the communist party he

was just a run-of-the-mill Democrat. But he'd worked 78 murder trials. Here was his record. 77 acquittals and one hung jury. Wow. Yes. That's pretty good. Yeah. Clarence Darrow's stats are similar.

Let's put a pin in this and come back to this because I have a theory on what they should have done. Okay. So the defense is gearing up for this retrial and so is the prosecution. The prosecutor, by the way, was Thomas Knight Jr. Here's something gross. Thomas Knight Sr. was the douche who wrote the Alabama Supreme Court decision stating that the Scottsboro Boys shouldn't get new trials. Excellent.

So the racist apple didn't fall far from the racist tree, as they say. I don't think that's the same. That's 100% the same. The second round of trials are set for the spring of 1933. Meanwhile, the young men have been kept in nasty conditions. I'm sure. Yeah, horrible. They were let out of their tiny cells once or twice a week for a handcuffed shower.

Oh, my gosh. They were eventually moved to a different facility, which was full of rats, and a few years earlier had been deemed unfit for white prisoners. Yeah. had been deemed unfit for white prisoners. Yeah. So meanwhile, Ruby Bates, one of the accusers, is nowhere to be found.

Girlfriend is gone. What? Mm-hmm. But they have to move forward. So they do. The first trial up is Hayward Patterson's. And immediately, defense attorney Sam Leibowitz is like, I'm not here to make friends. He's in this Alabama courtroom.

And he's like, excuse me, we've got a problem. You don't let black people serve as jurors. So right off the bat, this isn't fair. This isn't a jury of their peers. Yeah. So I moved to quash the indictment and oh by the way prosecutor thomas knight douche lord the third or whatever i noticed that you refer to white witnesses as mrs this or mr that or officer this doctor that but black witnesses you just refer to them by their first

names cut that out yeah have some respect yeah so this pissed people off like you would not believe because one of the things he did was he called this this like i can't remember the guy's name but this older black man and he called him to the stand to basically prove, OK, here's someone who could serve on a jury. Yeah. And then Thomas Knight goes up, refers to the guy by his first name multiple times. And so in front of everyone, Sam Leibowitz is standing up. He's like, objection. Don't say that.

Objection. Have some respect. And people were pissed. Wow. So this may surprise you, but those requests did not go over well. The motion was denied to quash the indictment, so they moved forward.

Yeah. The prosecution called Victoria Price, and they kept things super brief. Probably because in the first few trials she told these long stories. She actually had people laughing. It sounds like she was somewhat charming on the stand. And, you know, of course, the defense attorneys just sat back and watched it happen.

But this time the prosecution was like, OK, Sam Lebowitz, he's on this. We've got to keep this thing tight and locked in. Sam Lebowitz stands up and he cross-examined victoria price for four hours it was uncomfortable yeah he asked if she'd ever been convicted of adultery he asked how many times she'd been married i believe so she had been convicted for adultery i think she'd been married twice by this point. He asked if she'd had consensual sex with some random guy on the train tracks while her friend Ruby had sex with this other rando right next to him. Basically, what he was doing through his questions was calling her reputation into question.

Of course. So his big point was that she'd made up this gang rape accusation because she was afraid of being arrested for a man act violation yeah meanwhile victoria it sounds like she held up fairly well under testimony she sounded like an asshole yeah so like sam leebowitz had this like model train set up so that you know people could see okay you know you were supposedly here you know where was everybody else and he's asking her basic questions like is this like the train that you that you were on and she goes no it's much smaller that's exactly

right yes yes she was like no the one I was on was much bigger. Just to be an ass. Just to be an ass. But still, you know, the cross-examination was pretty damning. Yeah. Yeah. So the prosecutor is like, shit, this is not going well. So he redirects. And that's when Victoria adds a new piece of flair to her testimony that she had not told at any other point.

She said that one of her attackers pulled his thing out and he said to her, you will have a black baby. What? Yeah. So that was horrifying to the jury. I could imagine that would make a large impact on the jury yep and the other thing that i saw in some other sources was that even though sam lebowitz was making good points in his cross-examination of victoria people did not like seeing this Jewish guy from New York come down and talk condescendingly to this idiot liar. Yeah, because I imagine, like, yes, he's probably making a thousand, you know, good points. But the prosecution makes one good point.

Yes. And, like, that's it. That's the home team. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why i kind of think they should have gone with clarence darrow yeah because clarence darrow he was a southern guy

right yeah yeah i don't know okay yeah and he was just kind of you know he wasn't real put together like no he was a slob yeah so then the prosecution called the doctor who had examined ruby and victoria and he had examined them both about two hours after these alleged gang rapes but his testimony was not that good for the prosecution he said yes he found semen in both of their vaginas but they weren't bleeding they They weren't bruised. There were no tears. Are you okay, Brady? Are you horrified? It's not my favorite part of the testimony, I'll tell you that.

Well, it's about to get grosser. Oh, God. And even though Victoria and Ruby later claimed that they were crying and upset, during the examination, he said, no, they seemed fine. He also said that he examined the semen you ready for this and it was non-modal model bottom line was it had been in there for a while i would say it's modal modal yeah at first i thought maybe it was a typo and he meant non-mobile. Wasn't moving around in there much. Well, I think that's what it means.

Yeah, it is. I think that's just not what you say. Yeah. But I'm petitioning. This firm had low mobility is what she's saying. Then the prosecution called Arthur Woodle, who was one of the angry white men who showed up at the train that day. Sorry, I don't even know what that noise was. I just hate this case.

I know. I'm not going to do another bad one like this for a while. It's too much. It's too much. How are you feeling today? Probably not great, right? After researching this? I felt awful all day yesterday i felt terrible yeah yeah it sucked

still sucks yep now i'm throwing it at you thank you okay so he said he'd grabbed a knife off one of the young men that day so that you were asking okay um he said the way the ladies make it sound there should be fucking knives and pistols all over the place yeah and we see there's one knife brought up at trial mm-hmm mm-hmm doesn't quite match up does it and they have no tears or bruising or yeah that's like I'm sorry. Yes. If they're being raped by six men each. Yeah. Yes. Why?

This is just terrible. It is. Okay. So. So he couldn't say who he'd grabbed it off of. He just said that when he got it, the young man said that he took it quote off the white girl victoria price so that's that's what they've got wow but apparently the testimony surprised sam leibowitz and it showed on his face and the prosecutor was so excited that he clapped his hands and

dashed out of the courtroom with glee what what? What, did he jump in the air and kick his heels together? Might as well have. What does dash out of the courtroom with glee mean? It was like a victory dance. Oh my gosh. That's my understanding. It was like he did this little victory dance. So then Sam was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, I moved for a mistrial.

Yeah. We can't just be skipping around. Where the hell do you think you are this is a fucking courtroom musical but the judge was like no way we're not having a mistrial but jurors i instruct you to ignore that ridiculous little skipping dance that the prosecutor just did i bet they didn't do that how could you you? Yeah. That's ridiculous. Yeah. I instruct you to ignore that? Good luck. Then the prosecution called an eyewitness.

An eyewitness to what? The rape? Basically. All right, tell me more. Mm-hmm. This farmer gets up, takes the stand, and he's like, yep, I saw the train go by. I saw Victoria and Ruby trying to leap off the train, but then I saw those black men stopping them from jumping off

and taking them back in. Saw all that when the train was whizzing by, huh? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. He got a real good look. Yeah. So Sam Lebowitz stands up, and he's like, wow, you saw that whole thing, did you?

Yeah. Amazing. And how far away were you from this train? And do you have any idea how fast trains go? Yeah. And how did you even know you were looking at women from that far away because one thing that everyone knew was that victoria and ruby had been dressed as men they'd been in men's overalls and the farmer was like well you know i knew they were women because they were wearing dresses it's a lie he lies

so at this point everyone's like oh shit because this farmer's like the only one who didn't know that they were wearing overalls and he's like wait wait wait did i get any dresses i meant overalls so at that point the judge leans over and he, are you sure it wasn't overalls or a coat? And the guy goes, no, sir. A dress. Oh, my gosh. When it was time for the defense to call witnesses, the trial got even more interesting. When it was time for the defense to call witnesses, the trial got even more interesting.

Willie Robertson was one of the young men who was accused of rape, and he was called to the stand. And he was just like, hey, I'm going to be honest. Victoria said I raped her and I was hopping around from boxcar to boxcar. But here's the embarrassing truth. I had a venereal disease. I could barely walk without a cane. I wasn't jumping around anywhere. I had syphilis. I could barely walk without a cane. I wasn't jumping around anywhere. I had syphilis.

Oh my gosh. Another one of the accused men was Ozzie Powell. And the prosecution did a pretty good job of tearing him down. But afterward, the defense got up and they asked just one question. They said, Ozzie, tell us about how much schooling you've had in your life. And Ozzie said, about three months. Oh my gosh. Then Haywood Patterson was called to the stand.

He was another one of the accused rapists. On cross-examination, he and the prosecutor got into it with each other. Here's their exchange. Prosecutor, were you tried in Scottsboro? Patterson, I was framed in Scottsboro.

Prosecutor, prosecutor is pissed. Yeah. Who told you to say that? Patterson, I told myself to say it. Yeah. I love that.

Oh. Then later, a guy named Lester carter took the stand and he was a white guy who had been traveling with victoria and ruby that day and he did a ton of damage to the prosecution's case because victoria had said oh yeah i met lester the day of the crime but lester was like no we for sure knew each other before that he he said we hung out a few days before the crime in a hobo jungle before we fucks a hobo jungle i don't know it doesn't sound great are there lions and highly doubted giraffes i'd go to that i my assumption was like a bunch of tents oh like a tent village?

Yeah. Yeah, it's not quite as exciting as I was picturing. No, no. Take it down a notch. No cotton candy. For sure no cotton candy. So he said, you know, we were all hanging out in this hobo jungle. I had sex with Ruby.

Victoria had sex with her boyfriend, Jack Tiller, which would explain the semen in them. If there was old semen in... Sorry, I mean... That is so gross! Well, this is important! It is important. If it's old semen, then that explains it.

Yeah. You want to talk more about it? No. Don't talk about your gross old semen, Kristen. This is my first case in a while where there's no fetishists. semen, Kristen. This is my first case in a while where there's no fetishists. At this point, Sam Leibowitz

is feeling pretty good. He's like, alright, I rest my case. He approached the bench, asked for a brief recess, and then the courtroom doors swing open, and in walks Ruby Bates. Where the fuck has she been?

Good question. Everyone's scrambling. They're like, holy shit, she's alive, she's here, this changes everything. They get her on the stand, they ask her, why are you here? And she spills it. She says her conscience has been bothering her because this whole thing was a lie. She said that her minister in New York advised her to come down for this trial and tell the truth.

Oh my gosh, I have goosebumps all over. Yeah. She said that the rapes never happened. None of the Scottsboro boys even spoke to her that day, let alone touched her. She and Victoria told those lies because they were afraid of getting in trouble. The prosecution goes nuts. He's like, how do we know you're not lying now? Obviously, the Communist Party has their hand in this.

That's a nice dress. Where'd you get that dress? And she admits it was purchased. I mean, that's the tactic you have to take, right? Yeah. She's like, this dress was purchased for me. So he's like, okay, everything about this has been bought. Your testimony was paid for.

When it came time for closing statements. By the way, another source said that she was listed as a surprise witness. I like this version better. It's much more dramatic yeah was there like a clap of thunder as the doors flew open and everyone went when it came time for closing statements wade right who was assisting who was assisting prosecutor thomas knight asked the jury quote whether justice in this case is going to be bought and sold with Jew money from New York.

What the fuck? Yep. Yep. Wow. At that point, Sam Leibovitz was like, oh, hell no. Missed trial. Missed trial. And the judge was like, no, we're going to stick with it.

Wow. In his closing statement, Sam Lebowitz told the jury, go big or go home. Acquit them or give them the chair. Don't do anything in between. Then he recited the Lord's Prayer. Wow. Which I think was very smart. Yeah.

On April 8th 1933 the jury went into deliberation. The next day they emerged laughing. They found Haywood Patterson guilty and they sentenced him to death. Oh my gosh.

That's the first time I cried yesterday I was over that that's how is that even possible just a bunch of racist bullshit yeah that's fucking terrible yeah what kills me is when they walked out laughing the defense got really hopeful. Like, well, obviously they didn't. Yeah, like, obviously they didn't convict. Like, they're, yeah. Yeah. Wow. Looking back on the jury and his experience, Sam Lebowitz said, if you ever saw those creatures,

those bigots whose mouths are slits in their faces, whose eyes popped out at you like frogs, whose chins dripped tobacco juice, bewhiskered and filthy, you would not ask how they could do it. Oh my gosh. Months passed, and it turns out

one other person kind of agreed with Sam's assessment. It was the judge. Really? The case had weighed on him. None of the evidence supported the idea that these two women had been raped. Yeah. And there was one other thing.

In the trial, the original plan was that two doctors would testify, because two doctors had examined them that day. Yeah. But at the last minute, the prosecution pulled the second doctor. They were like, oh, this testimony would be duplicative. If we don't need it, it would be a waste of everyone's time. We don't need to hear from Dr. Lynch. So the judge was like, okay, fine. You're excused. But a little while later, Dr. Lynch said, hey, judge, could I meet with you privately? So they met in the men's room of the courthouse with armed guards outside the door.

And that's when Dr. Lynch says, I think these girls are lying. I think they've always been lying. In fact, when I first examined them, I told them to their faces that I didn't believe them. And they laughed at me. So the judge said, well, then you have to testify. And Dr. Lynch was like, please don't make me. I'm just out of med school. I'm just starting my practice. It'll be career suicide if my testimony helps the defense. In that moment, the judge sympathized with the doctor. But later on June 22nd, 1933, when the defense asked for a new trial, the judge decided to commit his own career suicide.

He told the packed courtroom that he was setting aside the jury's verdict. He ordered a new trial. Oh my gosh. I mean, goes without saying, but obviously when he was up for re-election, he lost that. Yeah, of course. But the new trials took place in another judge's courtroom. Mm-hmm. And this judge wanted things done fast.

He didn't like all the attention that the cases were getting. He didn't feel that the defendants or their attorneys deserved protection from the National Guard. So he dismissed any protection. Mm-hmm. He had a goal to complete each trial in three days. Oh my gosh. This sucks so bad. It's just these people's lives.

Yeah. This is terrible. It's been a while since we cried. I know, Kristen. Damn. Damn. It's been a while since we cried. I know, Kristen.

Damn. So he overruled almost every defense objection and sustained almost every objection from the prosecution. Of course. When Sam Leibowitz questioned whether Victoria Price might have had sex with someone other than the Scottsboro Boys in the days leading up to the alleged gang rape, the judge was like, hey, hey, hey, hey, none of that. Wow. Basically, this huge component of the defense. Yeah, it's a huge part of the defense.

The judge was like, oh, gross, no, we don't need to talk about that. The prosecution called a fun new witness and he offered to recite some of his poetry to the jury and the judge was like no thanks i hate poetry the guy said he was there the whole time saw the whole thing and the only reason the scottsboro boys stopped raping the women was because he convinced them that the women were dead what so why did this new witness all of a sudden appear and where is this story coming yeah well turns out the prosecutor thomas knight had been making payments to the guy's mom and to him for a long time so So his testimony was purchased. Later in jury instructions,

the judge ordered the jury to presume that no white woman in Alabama would have consensual sex with a black man. Wow. Then he refused to give the jury an acquittal form. He didn't even give them

the option to acquit. Get this. The only reason he finally gave them the form was because the prosecution was like judge if you don't at least give them the form then that could be grounds for a retrial and the judge is like oh okay right okay well here's the form. Oh, my gosh. Jury comes back. They find Haywood Patterson guilty again. Of course. Another trial happens.

They find Clarence Norris guilty again. Sam Lebowitz is seething mad. He's like, I will appeal both these verdicts to hell and back. The judge is like, good plan. You go ahead and appeal those verdicts. We'll just wait on these other seven cases. So now it's February 15th, 1935. We're at the United States Supreme Court.

That was the saddest one we've ever done. I know. Where was your sound bite afterwards? I am too sad now. I know. Sam tells the Supreme Court, here's the deal. In Alabama, they're not letting black people serve on juries. That's a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution. And I know they say they have the names of black people on jury rolls

but it's all bullshit yeah six weeks later the supreme court handed down a unanimous decision the alabama jury selection system was unconstitutional therefore those two convictions had to be thrown out oh my gosh yeah at this point years have gone by yeah the scottsboro boys have been locked up in horrible conditions and sam is just like please can we be done yeah can we be done with this just admit that you're wrong alabama and alabama's like no not a chance meanwhile sam lebowitz has his own issues going on with his own defense team. Two of the Communist Party lawyers were arrested for trying to bribe Victoria Price. Oh, shit.

Into changing her testimony. So he's pissed. He's like, look, dummies, you're not helping. Yeah. You've got to stop. Which, like, I don't know. Yeah, as if he doesn't have enough issues already. Yeah. which like I don't know yeah as if he doesn't have

enough issues already yeah yeah and her testimony was already full of shit anyway yeah so now we're on to

Haywood Patterson's fourth trial and this time Sam is like okay I get it people don't like me here they don't want to see

a Jewish guy from New York angrily questioning the way things are done. I'm going to sit back and let a local attorney named Charles Watts play a more visible role in this trial. So that's the strategy. The trial happens, and the jury found Heywood Patterson guilty again. But this time, they gave him 75 years.

Wow. Which, it was the first time in Alabama history that a black man had been convicted for raping a white woman and not gotten the death penalty.

Which shows that like, you had to be just like, smack you in the face innocent. And the best you could hope for was 75 years. At this point, it's 1936. Heywood Patterson is appealing his conviction and the other eight guys are awaiting trial.

These trials are costing Alabama a ton of money. And they're not making Alabama look great either. Yeah. Because by this point, everyone's watching and everyone's like, hmm, this is super racist. Yeah. Clearly, these guys are innocent. So Thomas Knight secretly goes to New York to meet with Sam Leibowitz. What?

He's like, can we please compromise? This is costing way too much money. It's costing us politically. Can we reach a compromise? How about this? I'll drop my cases against three out of the nine Scottsboro boys, and the rest will get no more than 10 years in prison. Sam did not like this deal.

He believed wholeheartedly that his clients were innocent. Yeah. But he also believed... That they weren't going to get off, so this is their best chance. Yeah. Yeah. He believed that they would never get a fair trial. Never.

Not in Alabama. No. So he said, okay, let's do the deal. They were all set to make the compromise official. And then Thomas Knight died. Yep. The judge. The judge, who I assume didn't know anything about the deals, you know, nothing had been signed.

Yeah. He's like, all right, let's get going on the new trials. Jury selection begins for Clarence Norris's third trial on Monday, July 12th, 1937. The judge worked with trademark speed. By Wednesday, the jury handed down a guilty verdict. Of course they did. And a death sentence yep then there was andy wright's trial he was sentenced to 99 years then it was charlie weems turn he got 75 ozzy powell was brought into court but earlier when he and some of the other guys had been transported back to prison from court and this story is a little murky but while he was handcuffed he slashed a deputy's throat with a

knife the deputy got his gun out and shot ozzy in the head but ozzy survived oh my gosh afterward ozzy said he did what he did because he thought he was going to be murdered so that happened and the state announced that they were dropping the rape charges against him and instead charging him with assaulting a deputy oh the guy didn't die no he didn't okay then came another surprise the new prosecutor announced that they were dropping charges against the four remaining defendants. He said that Willie Roberson and Olin Montgomery were for sure not guilty. And that Eugene Williams and Roy Wright, who were 12 and 13 at the time of the alleged crime,

had already spent enough time in jail and they should be released all of the scottsboro boys struggled but it was especially bad for those who were still stuck in prison the conditions they lived in were horrible yeah there were poisonous snakes um in prison where haywood patterson was held one of his jobs was to carry dead bodies out of the electric chair. Oh my gosh. But by 1938, oh God, you look... I'm so depressed right now. I'm sorry. I don't know what to say.

This case is terrible. It sucks. But by 1938, there was a little bit of hope. But by 1938, there was a little bit of hope. Alabama Governor Bibb Graves decided that he wanted to pardon the remaining Scottsboro boys. So he called them into his office for pre-pardon interviews, just like a normal thing. But none of them would admit to having done the crime. And therefore, none of them would say, oh, I feel so guilty. Oh, I'm i'm remorseful because they were like we didn't do anything ozzy powell refused to even talk to the governor he said

quote i don't want to say nothing to you yeah they didn't tell the governor what he wanted imagine how angry you would be at that point in your life it would be just impossible not to be yeah yeah you would be i i can't even imagine but yeah you wouldn't be like oh yeah after all the shit i've been through. Yeah. I'm going to go grovel to this white man. No fucking way. No. No. And because they wouldn't do it, they stayed in prison. So that's basically the end of the story.

But I want to talk a little bit about. What you think they should have done. Is that what you're going to say? Oh, no. I was going to talk about each of the Scotottsboro boys individually oh that's great but what i think they should have done yeah you just said we were going to talk about that at the end so oh i wish ozzy powell would have stuck the knife in a little further oh no i just think it's terrible i don't know that there's like a i just we were talking about clarence darrow earlier yeah so you said let's talk we'll talk at the end about what i think they should have done i think they should have gone with clarence

darrow i think they should have gone with clarence darrow too but only for like awful reasons which was that i think clarence we did already talk about that didn't yeah we did talk about it okay do you remember anything that's happened so far? Oh, I'm trying to get it out of my head. Okay. Ugh, this case. So Charles Weems was 19 when he was arrested. In prison, he was beaten up and tear gassed

for reading communist literature. He was permanently injured by the beatings, and in 1938, a prison guard stabbed him. The guard had mistaken him for a different Scottsboro boy, Andy Wright. Charles was released in 1943, got the hell out of Alabama, and got married. Clarence Norris had a really tough time in prison. He got out in 1944, moved to New York, which violated his parole because he wasn't allowed to leave Alabama. So he was sent back to prison.

Holy shit. Eventually, in the 60s, the NAACP helped Clarence get a full pardon from the state of Alabama. Oh my gosh. Andy Wright was 19 when he was arrested. He suffered from depression and got beat up by prison guards and other inmates. He was paroled in 1944, but violated parole when he left Alabama. He spent a few years in and out of prison.

He eventually moved to New York and in 1951 was accused of raping a 13-year-old girl. But that accusation was also believed to be false yeah and he was acquitted by an all-white jury oh my gosh the source i saw it didn't say but i assumed the girl was not white yeah yeah ozzy powell suffered permanent brain damage after being shot in the head he was released from prison in 1946 and he moved to georgia being shot in the head. He was released from prison in 1946 and he moved to Georgia. Olin Montgomery was one of the guys who was released early. He wanted to become a musician, but that never worked out for him. He drank heavily and eventually moved to Georgia.

Eugene Williams was 13 when he was arrested. He moved to St. Louis after he was released. Got two more here. It's just terrible. Willie Robertson was one of the guys who got early release. He was the one who walked with a cane. After he was released, he moved to New York City. Roy Wright was 12 when he was arrested. After he was released, he joined the Army, got married, and eventually got a job with a merchant marine. A few years later, when he got home from being away at sea for a while, he became enraged.

He thought his wife had cheated on him. So he murdered her. Oh, my gosh. And then he shot himself. Ugh. And that's it. That's the worst fucking story you've ever told. I know.

So Victoria Price always stuck to the story. Yeah. Ruby Bates obviously, I think, did what she could. Mm-hmm. But it was too late. Mm-hmm. Thanks for that story, Kristen. I really loved the redeeming qualities at the end.

I just... I think that's the saddest thing. Like, you take someone when they're that young and you put them through hell, they don't have a shot. Yeah, you've completely molded what their life's going to become. Yeah. You put them in a violent, horrible world. Yeah. Where everyone assumes the worst about them. So, of course, that's... And even after their release, they were known. So everybody continued to assume the worst of them.

And my... This isn't the worst part, but the idea of, like, no, you've got to stay in Alabama. Fuck that. I hated that story. I did too. I really hated it. Me too.

I don't know that I'll forgive you for this episode. I don't blame you. I don't blame anybody. No, this sucked. This totally sucked. I'll blame anybody no this sucked this totally sucked like I said

for some reason I had it in my head that this was a more like that it had a happy ending I don't know why I thought it had a happy ending because none of them

actually got put to death maybe that's what I was thinking yeah because I'd read about this like maybe six years ago yeah and so it was just in my head.

Right. Sorry, everybody. Fuck. I just need a minute before I'll be able to carry on. Do you want me to go to the bathroom? Sure. Okay, good. Yeah, get out of my sight, Kristen.

me to go to the bathroom sure okay good yeah get out of my sight quick can you believe that i didn't do central park five because i wanted one that was uplifting more uplifting well you fucking failed i agree good i need to like i'll try to do mine now, I guess. Good Lord. Let me gather myself here. Can I ask you a quick question? Yeah. Do you think, this is something, so my friend Christina, I told you she was in town last week. Do you think that if, if slash hopefully when I finally get my book done and I publish it, should I keep the name Kristen Pitts or should I call myself Kristen Caruso?

I think you should call yourself Kristen Caruso. Why? Because I think it sounds amazing. Damn it. So I... I have told you that like forever that I think it sounds like the most amazing name. So Christina and I were talking about this because in our like friend group from college, none of us changed our last name. Yeah.

And I was like, look, let me ask you. Best seller, Kristen Caruso. Half off, Kristen Pitts. I just think Kristen Caruso has such a ring to it. Yeah, it's a beautiful name. Yeah. Well, it certainly make my grandmother happy. Should I tell you how horrified I am?

I'm actually seriously thinking about it. I love it. My vote is use it professionally. Okay. Should we get... Hey, listeners, weigh in. Yeah, weigh in. Kristen Pitts or Kristen Car caruso what do you

like whose book would you rather read oh kristen caruso for sure 100 yeah i mean to me there's no question like which is better well duh it sounds awful but i don't pitts never i mean it's not my last name but it's never bothered me i don't think it's that bad of a last name. I think it could be like. Shithouse? Yeah. Used to be Shithouse. No, I just think like, and Christina and I had this conversation too, where like, yeah, I grew up with this name. I could not imagine changing my name because I got married.

Like that just, that was not yeah a thing for me but she was like well if you had kids how would you handle it and i was like for sure i would never put my kid through being a pit when they could be a caruso yeah lock me up if i wanted to do that anyway thank you please everyone weigh in weigh in I'm just putting on the record I'd rather read a book by Kristen Caruso would you rather listen to a podcast

I'd rather be friends with Kristen Caruso how dare you I'm just kidding what if I change my name and you're like oh listen you're like

I want to hang out more yeah I feel like there's been something that's just kind of been holding me back in this friendship wow turns out it's your last name

it's your shitty last. Your shitty last name. Would you rather listen to a podcast by Kristen Caruso? Let's see. Let's do our intro. Okay. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts.

I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. God, that sounds good. That sounds so good. I'm going to think about I'm Brandi Egan. God, that sounds good. That sounds so good. I'm going to think about it. Yeah. Okay. All right.

Have I lifted us up a little more? A little bit. All right. I'm ready to go now. Thank you. Great. Okay. You know, three people die every...

Just kidding. Why would you do that to me? I was going to make up something terrible. I was gonna make up something terrible I saw the most amazing concert I've ever seen in my life last night Christian you could have been there I'll talk about it at the end of the okay I'm gonna talk about it after mine because I have something I want to mention oh great that's a little teaser I was you know I was going to stop listening, but then you said that. Okay, so I pulled the majority of the beginning of this from an article from Texas Monthly. Oh my God, you love Texas Monthly. By Mimi Swartz.

Okay. Really good article. Okay. Okay. There are a handful of things that people in Centerview. Nope. I got to start over. Did the article mess this up too? No, I fucking messed up. I keep wanting to call this town Centerview. It's called fucking Channelview. I can't help you there. I don't know. Okay. There are a handful of things that the people of Channelview, Texas agree on when it comes to Wanda Holloway. She was prideful, well-spoken, an impeccable dresser, and she would do anything for her children.

Oh, no. Oh, I'm so excited. Many of those statements, though they could be taken as a compliment, weren't meant to be. To the people of Channelview, a largely blue-collar suburb of Houston, the way she spoke was uppity, and most didn't have the means to dress the way she did. Wanda hadn't grown up with the means herself. In fact, she had grown up in one of the rougher parts of Channelview. But what she had grown up with was the drive to get herself the hell out of there. In high school, she was described as an overachiever,

and especially excelled in her business classes. She was fairly well-liked, but she could never quite gain the acceptance she yearned for. What Wanda wanted more than anything was to try out for the cheerleading squad or the drill team. This was Texas, after all. The drill team and the cheerleaders went hand in hand with Friday night football. But her father wouldn't allow it. It didn't fit with his conservative religious views. No daughter of his was going to be out there dancing around dressed in those skimpy outfits.

Which by this point is like the 60s. I can't imagine how skimpy those outfits were. Everything's relative. Yeah. When you look at a modern day cheerleading uniform. Instead, Wanda focused on those business classes she did so well in. She would graduate high school, get into good business college. Get into a good business college. And leave that town behind.

And make cavemen happy. But that dream of leaving Channelview, much like her dreams of becoming a cheerleader, would never come to fruition. At 18, Wanda married Tony Harper and gave up her business classes. He didn't want her to work and she wanted to start a family right away. But Wanda hadn't lost her thirst for more. She wanted a nicer house than the modest one they lived in on the same street as the rest of Tony's family. And she wanted a Lincoln Town car. Those were her big dreams.

A girl can dream. With Tony's salary as a railroad warehouse worker, though, those wants seemed far beyond Wanda's reach. She seemed to find her purpose in life, though, with the birth of her son, Shane, in 1973, followed by the birth of her daughter, Shana, in 1977. That sucks. Why would you name them Shane and Shana? That's awful awful it's terrible by the time shana was three tony and wanda were divorced wanda kept the house tony kept his truck his water skis and his recliner wanda would marry two more times pretty quickly first to a semi

wealthy older man living the next town over but that marriage was short-lived then after a brief attempt at reconciliation with tony she married an even older and even wealthier man cd holloway owned his own company in the oil industry and was 20 years older than wanda how you feel about that kristin well, here, okay, I'm about to surprise some people. Sounds like she wanted money. Yeah. He wanted the young hot wife. Yeah. As long as everyone's on the same page, cool. I'm good with it. All right. It's when someone's like, you know, 35 dating the 20 year old. And like the 20 year old's not getting anything out of it except manipulation that's where you have a real problem with it so wanda and cd had met at church where

wanda was the choir master and accompanist i hate that word i tried to find a different word to put in there but companyist it's not spelled accompanist did you get uncomfortable with the word pianist no it's not spelled a companyist it's spelled accompanist is that how you say it is this like you know i it took me until adulthood to realize that i've always misspelled and miss said the word sherbet it's sherbet it's not sherbert yeah we put an extra syllable in it it is pronounced accompanist well that's stupid i'm looking at the dictionary pronunciation of it right now the dictionary is wrong okay so long story short wanda was the choir master and she played fucking piano. Really wasn't a long story.

Controversial word. Once Wanda married CD, they moved to one of the nicer neighborhoods in Channelview and Wanda got her town car. In fact, I know, right? In fact, it seemed Wanda now had everything she'd ever wanted. She had diamonds and fancy clothes, a nice home, though it was still modest. They didn't move to a mansion. And she had her dream car. When asked if all the money made her happy, Wanda said with a smile, well, we're sure having fun.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now that Wanda had just about everything she'd ever wanted, she could focus on the big disappointment in her life that she had never gotten over. And she decided, whether it was a conscious decision or not, that's kind of up for debate. She decided to live vicariously through her daughter. Oh, no. Oh, God. First, she put Shana into tumbling and gymnastics then

it was on to cheerleading classes and then it was time for private coaches wanda how about put yourself into therapy the amount of money wanda must have invested into making her daughter into the cheerleader she never was had to be astronomical God. But that wasn't the end of it. Shana had to switch schools, of course. Shana had attended a private Christian elementary school, but in order to be a cheerleader, she would have to go to public school. So in 1989, when Shana was in the sixth grade, Wanda withdrew her from private school

and enrolled her in the public school system in preparation for seventh grade cheerleader tryouts. This is what they'd been preparing for for most of Shana's life. Oh, my God. Do not tell me she doesn't make it. Wanda had done everything she was supposed to do. Oh, no. She'd followed the rules. And now was the time for Shana to get what she'd

never had. And that's when the problems with Verna and Amber Heath began. Amber and Shana were the same age. They lived right around the corner from each other. They attended the same Christian private school. And they took classes at the same gym they were friends they knew each other well they had sleepovers at each other's houses so wanda and verna were familiar with each other as well the articles that i read didn't go so far as to call them friends but they were definitely friendly okay okay amber was a talented young tumblr and cheerleader, but Wanda wasn't worried about her being competition for Shana because she was still going to the private school. So you can imagine how shocked Wanda and Shana were

when during the three days before tryouts where girls are allowed to campaign for their spot on the squad, Verna dropped Amber off at the school to hand out flyers and peppermints urging the students to vote for her wait you get voted onto you get voted onto the cheerleading squad it's like half tryout half vote oh gross yeah so there's like this three-day period before the tryouts where any girl who's trying out is allowed to campaign to try and get, you know, her schoolmates votes. So all of a sudden, Amber's getting dropped off at the public school and she's campaigning for votes for cheerleader.

So it turns out that Verna was intending to enroll Amber at the public junior high school and had gotten special permission from the administration for her to try out for the squad before actually changing schools. Wanda was livid. Those weren't the rules. That's not how it worked. She complained to the administration. She complained to the school board.

She called other parents and urged them to tell their children not to vote for the outsider as she took to calling amber she even talked about getting a lawyer but in the end it just didn't pan out there were three girls campaigning for two spots on the squad shana didn't make it amber did wanda was devastated oh my god does wanda kill a little oh no all of her complaints to the school and the school board did result in a rule change for future seasons, though. So in future years, candidates wishing to try out for the cheerleading squad would have to spend one semester at the school before becoming eligible. So apparently this was the rule, but it wasn't like officially in the rule book. Well, yeah, because no one gave a shit.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. This didn't calm Wanda down at all, though. Yes, exactly. Yeah. This didn't calm Wanda down at all, though. She focused herself on making sure that this heartbreak didn't happen to her. I mean, Shana again the next year. There were more classes, more private lessons.

And Wanda teamed up with her ex-husband, Tony, to come up with a campaign that was sure to get Shana elected. Oh, poor Shana. In what would come to be known as the ruler incident, Tony had the idea to get rulers and pencils printed up that said, vote for Shana Harper for cheerleader. When Wanda took them to the school during the campaigning period, she was told they violated the campaign rules and the vice principal confiscated them. She called her ex, Tony, in tears.

They're not going to let me do this, she sobbed to him. Tony was surprised and confused. Wanda knew every rule there was when it came to these tryouts. So surely she had known this was against the rules, right? Why hadn't she said something when he'd come up with the idea? But Wanda convinced herself that these rulers and pencils were no different than handing out flyers or buttons or peppermints. So she kept handing them out anyway. Okay. I kind of agree.

I mean, a pencil, a peppermint. So the idea is that it's like you're actually giving them something tangible rather than a button or a peppermint that they're going to eat. It's something that they, it's a bribe. More of a gift. Yeah. Well, gosh, if you're going give a bribe give a give a better one than that when word got out that wanda was still handing out the pencils and rulers

an emergency meeting was called at the school the cheerleading sponsor and the parents of current cheerleaders were asked to attend. Among those parents was, of course, Verna Heath. Sure. At the meeting, they determined that Shana, due to Wanda's blatant disregard for the rules, would be disqualified. Oh, no. Oh, poor Shana. Uh-oh. When Wanda learned of the decision, she was mortified.

She called the principal and asked him to reconsider. Tony also called the principal and tried to take responsibility for Wanda's actions. He said, this was my idea. You know, I didn't know this was against the rules. Please, please reconsider. It was too late. The decision had already been made. Wanda just knew that Verna Heath was at the root of

this disqualification, and she'd crossed the line. Now things were personal. Ninth grade cheerleading tryouts weren't scheduled until March of 1991, but Wanda would need several months to prepare for them if she was going to be successful this year in getting Shana elected. Oh my God, this story is terrible. So worth noting here, in the meantime,

Shana had managed to get herself elected as the vice president of the eighth grade class. Oh my gosh. So it's not like she was unpopular. And perhaps if Wanda- She was popular despite the harm. Yeah, and perhaps if Wanda had taken a fucking step back and quit intervening, maybe she would have done just fine and gotten on the squad all by herself.

Probably. Anyway. So several months before tryouts, Wanda took a job doing clerical work in the band director's office. She used this time on the inside. Someone hired this nut job? Yeah. To pepper several administrators with questions. How could she enhance Shana's chances of getting elected this year?

Back off. Should she try to cozy up to the cheerleading sponsor? Was there any way to get Amber or another competitor disqualified? What? When she didn't get the answer she was looking for, she took a turn down a darker path, which led her to her ex-brother-in-law, Terry Harper. Oh my God. One day, Wanda pulled up to Terry's trailer, honked the horn, and when he came outside, she said she needed to talk to him in private. Oh, my God. She asked him how much he loved his niece and nephew.

No, no, no, no. Well, Terry told her, I love them with all my life. Wanda was glad to hear it because she'd come up with the perfect plan to make sure Shana made the squad. But she was going to need Terry's help. Are you honest to God about to tell me that they tried to murder a child? I need two people taken care of and I don't care how wanda told terry no and terry's like whoa i don't do anything like that and i don't know anyone who does anything like that and wanda's like think it over think on it a bit what's there to think about? See what you can come up with.

And she left it at that. And Terry didn't hear from Wanda again until Christmas Eve, 1990. Wait, so this first conversation happened in the spring? No, it happens in the fall sometime. Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, it happens in the fall sometime. And so then nothing happens until Christmas Eve. Oh, my God.

So on Christmas Eve, after they'd opened presents at the Harper family Christmas, Shana pulls Terry aside. So this is like her dad's side of the family Christmas. And she gives him a piece of paper with a phone number on it and says, mom wants you to call her at this number. And so Terry's like, Oh fuck.

So Terry calls the number and he's thinking it's either a she's like wants to call off the deal and make sure that she knows he knows like hey you know sorry i said that forget all about it or b she wants to press him to find someone to go through with it oh my god and so he's like please be a please be a but when he spoke to wanda turns out it was option b and she's like you got to find somebody to do this we got to move forward with this and so he tries to reason with her he's like why don't you just let Shana try out? And if she doesn't get it, she doesn't get it. Yeah. Character building. And Wanda's like, no, if she doesn't get it, she'll be devastated and she'll never try out again.

She'll be devastated. Right. So Terry quickly realized that Wanda was not giving up on this idea. And he was now in over his head. And he, by no choice of his own, like, she sought him out. And he was like, I'm not into that. Nope. Love my niece and nephew.

And so he's like, what the fuck do I do? So he goes to his brother, Tony, which is Wanda's ex-husband, and tells him what's going on. And Tony's like, you got to tell the police. Yes. You have to tell the police. When Terry first went to the police, they didn't seem to believe him. Wanda, though a bit overbearing, was a well-respected member of the community with a wealthy husband.

And Terry had a little bit of a record. Nothing big, a couple of misdemeanor charges and a dui but they weren't quick to take his side it does seem nuts yeah i mean because she wanted to murder a mom and daughter so that her daughter could make the cheerleading squad yeah that's it sounds fucking crazy yeah so and the police are like okay buddy goodbye all right but he's like no i'm fucking serious and it took some pretty heavy convincing on his part for them finally be like all right if you're telling the truth let's wire you up you go get her to say it on tape oh my gosh and terry's like all right great okay so over the next three weeks police couldn't believe what they heard when they listened in while terry told wanda that he'd found someone to do the job

and they negotiated pricing the fake hitman would charge $2,500 to take out Verna Heath. What? Yeah. I mean. And $5,000 to take out Amber Heath. And Wanda was like, I just can't swing the $7,500 for both, which adjusted for inflation is almost $14,000 today. That's, no, no. Those bargain basement prices were two hits, right? Yeah, and one of them's a child?

No. Yeah. So she's like, I just don't have the money for two murders. Darn. I guess I'll just take the one. Let's just take out Verna. She's done way more to me than her daughter.

And if we murder, if you murder her amber is going to be so distraught that there's no way she'll be able to try out for cheerleader oh that is fucked up yeah it's super fucked up so i'll take the bargain deal oh my god it's just like getting two birds with one stone. It'll be so great for this child to be grieving the loss of her mother. Yes. Oh. Yeah. This is terrible.

It was the perfect scenario. Oh. oh on january 28th 1991 wanda met terry to give him the down payment and again terry was wearing a wire as wanda handed over a pair of diamond earrings for the down payment he asked you want her dead and wanda replied i don't care what you do with her. You can keep her in Cuba for 15 years. I want her gone. Two days later, Shana was practicing gymnastics in the garage when two police officers showed up looking for her mom. Shana watched in fear as her mother took off her jewelry and placed it on the kitchen table. As police escorted her out the front door, she said, Grandma's coming over. I'll be back.

Just calm as can be. The next day, Shana's fear turned to shock when her mother, out on bail, told her that she had been arrested for conspiring to kill Verna Heath. Whoa. Yeah. So Shana's like, what the fuck? Oh my God. At her February arraignment, Wanda Holloway was the best dressed person in the courtroom.

She wore a white shirt with a black and white polka dot collar, a houndstooth skirt a black blazer and she finished the look off with a pair of black pumps with white piping could i google her real quick yeah okay wanda holloway yeah h-o-l-l-o-w-a-y oh yeah she's got that hair yeah uh she also carried a black purse with a dark red wallet that matched her dark red nails wow and she pled not guilty okay i've got to stop looking at pictures yes okay mesmerizing wanda holloway's trial began August 23rd, 1991. The prosecution alleged that Wanda had conspired to kill Verna Heath so Amber would be too distraught to try out for the cheerleading squad and Shana would have a better chance of making it. Unbelievable. They called school administrators who testified that Wanda had taken her daughter's rejections rejections from the cheerleading squad. Man, the school called administrators who testified that Wanda had taken her daughter's rejections from the cheerleading squad far less gracefully than Shana herself.

A high school friend of Shana's brother also testified that Wanda once asked him if he would kill Verna Heath. Oh, my gosh. The prosecution's most powerful witness, though, was Wanda herself. They played for the jury seven tape-recorded conversations, including five phone conversations and two in-person conversations. Wanda and jury members alike followed along with a transcript as her voice filled the courtroom. In the first recorded conversation, Terry asked Wanda, are you still interested in taking care of that problem? To which Wanda replied, uh-huh, with a giggle. Some of the conversations were difficult to understand

as Wanda spoke very fast and often giggled in the middle of sentence. This was like a nervous tick, I think. Yeah, when you're plotting to kill someone. Kill someone, yeah. Sure. But the final conversation was the most damning. In that conversation, after Wanda told Terry that she didn't care what happened to Verna, they could keep her in Cuba for 15 years. Terry made it clear that the guy he'd lined up for the job would make sure that Verna Heath, quote, won't be breathing much longer.

To which Wanda Holloway can be heard on tape saying, OK, go for it. Yeah, I was going to say, because the. I know. can be heard on tape saying okay go for it yeah i was gonna say because i know that seems yeah it's like oh i don't know that might be an out yeah but when he says this guy i've got he's gonna make sure she's not breathing anymore and she goes okay go for it yeah that's pretty bad the prosecutor felt sure that this was all they needed for a conviction. They had the defendant's own words on tape ordering the hit. But now it was the defense's turn. They argued that this whole thing was planned by Tony and Terry Harper in a ploy for Tony, Wanda's ex-husband,

to gain custody of Shana and Shane. Oh, hold the phone. So it was a plot by them. Uh-huh. And they imitated her voice? No, no, no. She actually said these things. Uh-huh. But it was their idea.

And the defense is arguing that she only went along with it because she was scared. Oh, yeah. Giggling and having a good time. is that in the 10 years since they had divorced tony harper had never once attempted to amend their custody arrangement oh yeah he'd never taken her to court he'd never asked for more time or child support whatever all of a sudden all of a sudden yeah he just flies off the fucking handle and he's framing you for plotting a murder? Yeah. You don't think so? Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

When Wanda took the stand in her own defense, she really tried to sell that idea to the jury. She admitted that she had said some terrible things about the Heaths. And she admitted that it had been unwise. But she maintained through tears that the plot to murder Verna Heath had been Terry's idea and that she had not backed out of the plan because she was afraid of him. The jury was not swayed by Wanda's tears, though. Good. On September 3rd, 1991, they found her guilty and recommended a sentence of 15 years. Good. Ooh. Ice cold.

Oh, no. But the jury's attempt at being clever would not pay off. Oh, no. Because what they were unaware of was that Texas law allows a felon sentenced to a term of 15 years or less to post an appeal bond and allows them to get out on conditional release. Wanda made her $75,000 bond and was out the next day on appeal. Do you want to know why they appealed? What conditions they appealed on? Hold on. Hold on. Oh, biscuits.

No, what is it? What is it? Okay. So this is the defense. They've got some stuff up their sleeves. They've saved it to the last second. So what's interesting is that if the jury had sentenced her to 15 years and one day, she would not have been able to get out on bond.

If it was even one day over 15 years, she would not have been able to have an appeal bond. Okay. day oh my god over 15 years she would not have been able to have an appeal bond okay um may i make a quick guess yeah okay it has something to do with the transcripts you said they were kind of muddled in the beginning no okay never mind good guess though okay but no so the defense appeals the ruling or the verdict, appeals the verdict, and they petition for a new trial claiming that the whole thing was invalid because one of the jurors had been ineligible to serve on the jury due to a felony drug arrest. What? Yes. During the jury selection, Daniel Enriquez had truthfully answered yes when asked if he had been involved in a criminal case. But the judge incorrectly assumed that Enriquez had served his sentence.

Oh. And he had not responded when the judge asked if any of the prospective jurors were on probation. prospective jurors were on probation because he had served on a different jury several months earlier and the judge in that case had assured him that his legal problems did not render him ineligible for jury duty oh so he he did nothing wrong uh-huh it's just like a weird like he got jury duty twice that fast. Yeah. So many people, including myself, believe that the defense knew the truth about this juror's inability all along. And that was like just up their sleeve. Yep. And it kept it quiet in case of a conviction.

Oh, shit. But it doesn't matter. The law's the law. Yeah. So they had an ineligible person on the jury. The entire trial's out the window. Oh, my gosh. And the verdict is void.

Oh, OK. It would be another five years before the Texas justice system got around to dealing with Wanda Holloway a second time. Yeah. It just, like, took for fucking ever to come back around. It just like slowly. But she didn't still have custody of her children. She had custody of her children. She's out on bond.

Yeah, she's living her fucking life. Did Shana make the squad? No. Did Shana lose interest? I think Shana didn't try yeah i don't blame her oh my gosh so five years go by and then finally in september of 1996 wanda took a plea deal to avoid a second trial the case had turned into even more of a spectacle in the five years that had passed. So initially it was like a big deal in Texas. Yeah.

When this case happened. But this is an amazing story. Oh my God. It fucking blew up. Two made for TV movies came out in the time between the first trial and when the second trial was going to happen. Absolutely. So it was just fucking huge news. And so everybody's like, we're just ready to be done with this.

Yeah. So she takes a plea deal she pleads no contest okay and was sentenced to 10 years in prison okay but under the plea deal she would be eligible for parole after six months what yeah and she was granted it. She only served six months in prison. Spent the rest of her sentence on probation. So she served six months and then had nine and a half years of probation. And she had to complete a thousand hours of community service. That's all she got.

That's ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. How? that's all she got that's ridiculous it's so ridiculous how i it's just nuts and both sides were pissed at like what it would boil down to nobody was happy with this deal the defense thought it was too much and the prosecution thought it was not enough the defense is stupid yes if they think that they got a raw deal with her getting out in six months, that's ridiculous. Is that not crazy? That is insane. So, meanwhile, during all of this, poor Shana continued to go to school with Amber. Oh, God.

And just had to, like, avoid her in the hallway. Hey, Amber. Sorry my mom tried to kill your mom. So her mom, or no, I'm sorry, her dad, Tony, was like,

you want to change schools? Let's change schools. And Wanda was like, nope, we're not changing schools. That makes us look like we did something. Well,

you fucking did do something. Well, and it's not we. Yes. Oh my gosh. Shana never did become a cheerleader because here's the big shocker kristin she it was she never really wanted to be a cheerleader in the first place wow wow oh my god shana is now grown and married with two children and has a fairly normal relationship with her mother what

she says wanda is a doting grandmother but that she parents her children very differently than wanda parented her she doesn't push her children into anything and they are free to pursue whatever path they wish and if anyone stands in their way of the murder plot, Shana says that she and Wanda have only spoken about it one time. And it was just a few years ago. Shana finally worked up the courage to ask her mom why she did it. Yeah. Wanda simply said it was a huge mistake and that she wished she could take it back.

They've not spoken about it since. I mean, yeah. Okay. Yeah. That was nuts. could take it back they've not spoken about it since i mean yeah okay yeah that was nice yeah so the two made for tv movies so um abc made one called willing to kill the texas cheerleader story it came out in 1992 and it was like a serious like retelling of the story and then hbo made a movie called the positively true adventures of the alleged texas cheerleader murdering mom that sounds which was like a dark it was like a dark comedy it's yeah they definitely were very tongue-in-cheek with it i have seen it that's actually how i heard about this case. I've seen that movie years and years and years ago. It came out in 1993. Okay.

And Holly Hunter stars as Wanda Holloway. And it's funny and it's pretty good. But it's not, it doesn't stay that true to the story. Yeah, well, sure, sure. So that's the case of Wanda Holloway. And those are the dangers of being a cheerleader in Texas. Trying to be a cheerleader. Trying to be a cheerleader. No, Amber being a cheerleader in Texas. Trying to be a cheerleader. Trying to be a cheerleader.

No, Amber was a cheerleader. Oh, well. You're right. Those are the. How you said it was perfect. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Man, we got the white people justice on this one.

We got the black people justice. Well, injustice rather. In good grief yeah that was nuts yeah thank you for that thank you for lightening things up just a touch just a touch slightly let's see i would like to say that i am now three episodes deep death free okay um and i would like to say i'm sorry to everyone for this episode that was way too depressing it was fucking terrible way too sad yeah i would like to talk now about what i did last night oh did you have a great night okay so i backstory here i love ben folds i have loved him since i was 11 years old and i heard brick for the first time i remember exactly where i was when i heard it

i like changed my fucking life i remember you talking about yes when we were kids yes uh it was like really like when i was 10 11 years old is when i first like discovered music and that there was more than just like pop music and shit like that on the radio i've still not discovered right and so like, oh, changed my life. I bought whatever and ever. Amen. Like with my own money and listen to it all the time. I loved it because I had curse words on it and I felt like I was like getting away with something. Yeah.

Oh, changed my life. So I've wanted to see him in concert since I was 11 years old. Last night, he was here in Kansas City. And he performed with the Kansas City Symphony. And I went and was in the seventh row. And it was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my fucking life. And I told Kristen about the show. And she was like, oh, I think we might go.

And then she decided to cheap out. And she didn't want to spend the money for the tickets. And she missed out on a life changing experience is what I'm telling her right now to her face. And she looks so pissed. I I'm very pissed at myself because I'm not that into music. Yeah, I never have been. Yeah. Hi, Norman.

Hi. Can you. I'd like to interject. Oh, my God. OK, well'll get down in the microphone hi norman here kristin's husband i just like to say that i was ready to purchase tickets to the ben folds concert uh and when i told kristin how much each ticket cost she scoffed and said absolutely not we are not paying that to go see ben folds i would like you to tell the listeners what that astronomical amount of money per ticket was eighty dollars a ticket come on kristin here's why i'm stupid so

like i said not that into music never really happened but yeah i have always loved ben folds yeah i and i to this day love ben folds yeah and i've seen him in concert once it was amazing i wanted to see him again when you told me about it i got really excited then i heard the price my inner daryl pitts came out i was like absolutely not and then last night it was terrible I'd been researching the Scottsboro Boys case all day it was terrible I was so sad and I was like I want to go to the concert and so I clicked a new tab my brother googled it show starts at 7 it was 6 54 and I was so sad um okay so while i was at the concert you ran into everyone we know yeah like the whole world was there except me so while i'm sitting

there watching the most amazing concert i've ever seen in my life i'm like kristen i this is like a whole fucking new experience for me i I've gone to a million concerts. I love concerts. Love them. This was like no concert I've ever been to before. I cried at one point because I couldn't believe what my life was that I get to see this amazingness that close to my life and face. I'm really happy for you. Okay.

So he performs a song that I had completely forgotten about. It's a song i know you know it too which one is it it's called cologne oh okay okay he wrote it when he was in germany he actually wrote it on fucking stage and then he rewrote it you know and released it oh he composed a fucking song right there on stage while we all watched. It was the most amazing thing. My mind was like mush. Like it oozed out of my ear and like pooled on the floor next to me. He gives a little backstory about this song Cologne that he wrote. So he was in Germany at the time, which Cologne is a city in Germany, just for the record.

For any idiot. And he's in Germany at the time and he's looking at these. He's got like a German newspaper like an Italian newspaper and an American newspaper USA Today and he's looking at them and like the stories in like the German and the Italian newspaper are like these horrible stories about you know the state of the

country and you know whatever blah blah blah how terrible things are there's war whatever and then the American newspaper the cover story is about an astronaut who put on diapers and drove 18 hours to try and murder someone. So in this song, and I, again, I know this song, I had totally forgotten that it existed, but I want to read you a sampling of the lyrics. And then I'd like to point out an inaccuracy in it oh oh yeah okay

says here an astronaut put on a pair of diapers drove 18 hours to kill her boyfriend and in my hotel room i'm wondering if you read that story too and if we both might be having the same imaginary conversation so it's in the fucking song she was not attempting to kill her boyfriend for the record wasn't her boyfriend that's correct if you want to make this right send me a ticket to your next show anyway i say all this to say um look we have a connection to ben folds on a different level than we even remembered we had yes we both we all love the ashtonaut diaper story and you missed out on the show of a lifetime i'm so pissed at myself

i norman and i need to have a conversation that when i he needs to override you on certain things right the thing is he's not as into benfold so i think he probably didn't want to go all right yeah um but i feel like on experiences like that where it's like we have this one opportunity yeah let's take the fucking opportunity yeah damn it brandy i have something to say to you okay you and i have both been watching a lot of the great british bake-off oh yeah both of our husbands think we're lame for this yes you said to me the other day paul hollywood is hot and i said no he's not here's what i realized yeah i've studied this now he's so good looking paul hollywood is in fact hot yeah very hot here's my thing i do not like arrogant white men that's my problem i put it together because like i i turned on like i turned on netflix and i was like let me

just look at this objective yeah i was like, okay, those steely blue eyes. Yeah, he's for sure hot. He is. He's also very arrogant. I just can't stand him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you guys should totally, first of all, if you don't listen to Ben Folds, fucking check him out.

It'll change your life. If they haven't checked him out by now, they're not. Guys, if you haven't checked out the Spice Girls, what are you doing? Check them out by now. They're not. Guys, if you haven't checked out the Spice Girls, what are you doing? Check them out. They're a hot new band. And if you've never seen the British Baking Show, check that out too.

It's on Netflix. That's not what it's actually called. The Great British Bake Off? Yeah, The Great British Bake Off. Okay, yeah. It's on Netflix. There's like five seasons

of it on there. It's so fucking good and you know just stare at paul hollywood i dare you not to here's what i don't like first of all what's okay what's the older lady's name mary berry not mary berry The other one. Oh, um, Poe. I don't think that's her name. I like her. I do too. I like her. The fuck is her name?

I like that she's confident enough. She just takes a bite and she immediately gives the assessment. Paul Hollywood milks the drama. He like takes a bite. He looks down. Yeah, because he wants them to like shit their pants a little bit first. Yeah. What an ass.

No, I love it. Because he'll be like, and you're like, holy shit, he's going to shit their pants a little bit first. Yeah. What an ass. No, I love it. Because he'll be like, and you're like, holy shit, he's going to say it's fucking terrible. And then he's like, this is the most amazing thing I've ever tasted. And then he shakes their hand. And that's like the big thing to get a handshake from Paul Hollywood. I think that's annoying. No. He's such a drama queen.

I love it. I hope he chokes on a sponge. No, I don't's annoying. No. He's such a drama queen. I love it. I hope he chokes on a sponge. No, I don't. Although, having watched the show now, what I really want to do, it's been driving me crazy for like the past couple days. I want to make a Swiss roll. Yeah. I think it'd be super fun.

Yeah. I agree. I feel like even if it was a disaster, it'd still taste amazing. It'd still taste good. Yeah. So who gives a... I want to make one of those. I don't even know what they're called, but they have the pastry shell.

And then it's just got like meats and shit in it. It looks so good. I did not think... Okay. So some of this... Some of them look good and some of them don't. Some of this British stuff, I'm kind of like... But it's like a pot pie.

Yeah. No, I'm with you. But it looks like a really crunchy pastry shell. Yeah. Because it stands on its own. It doesn't even need a dish. Yeah. We're going to have to wrap this up because we need to go eat lunch now.

Yeah. And we can't stop eating. Thank you for listening. If you've joined us on social media, thank you for listening if you've if you've joined us on social media thank you for that we're on facebook instagram twitter oh and this week okay so last week quick story yeah i told the story about my dad saying he wanted a dp for dp yeah and how that was terrible because um to people with dirty minds, it means double penetration. That's correct.

I had to have that mortifying conversation with my father. I told the story on the podcast. This week, my father sent me a photo of himself drinking a Dr. Pepper with two straws. He captioned it, DP for DP with DP. I posted it on social media. And then Facebook, I got a notification from Facebook the other day that was like you didn't boost this post.

It's like no shit Facebook. You know I'm posting that for people to have a little laugh. I'm not paying for anyone to see that. I'm not going to pay for people to see DP. You know what I really liked was that we got a comment on it from the man the myth, the legend, Daryl Pitts himself, that said, Kristen's dad is a sicko. Shows he can be objective.

That's right. So thank you for joining us on social media if you already have. If you have not yet, head on over to those things. What are you doing? Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. You're missing out on some fun there um sometimes sometimes kind of boring but sometimes we talk about the scottsboro boys that's right and we all get depressed thank you also to the people who have left us a rating and a review on itunes we really we really really appreciate that it's a great

metric for us to use to see you you know, how we're growing. So thank you. Thank you for that. Please, if you've not done that, head on over there. Do that for us. And then join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process.

I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from FamousTrials.com, PBS, and a little from Wikipedia. And I got my info from Texas Monthly, The Chicago Tribune, People Magazine, Encyclopedia.com, and Mentalfloss.com. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.