Let's Go To Court! - 42: Spree Killer Charles Starkweather & the Pricey Murder for Hire Plot

Episode Date: November 14, 2018

Nancy Howard just wanted a quiet night at home. She pulled into the garage of her upscale home, got out of her car, and was about to head inside for dinner when an armed gunman grabbed her by the neck. The pair struggled. He shot her and left her for dead. But Nancy survived. Investigators were perplexed by the crime, but soon, the pieces came together. It was even stranger than they’d initially suspected. Then Brandi tells us about infamous teenaged spree killer Charles Starkweather. In just two months, Charles killed eleven people. His underaged girlfriend was with him the entire time. Starkweather’s horrific crimes won a place in pop culture. The crimes inspired the film Natural Born Killers, a truly terrible Bruce Springsteen song, and were mentioned in Billy Joel’s, “We didn’t start the fire.” And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “How to not get away with murder” by Michael J Mooney for D Magazine An episode of the podcast Swindled “‘They got you, didn’t they?’ Denton County woman tells prison-bound ex who tried to have her killed,” The Dallas Morning News “Love affair takes center stage in Carrollton murder-for-hire trial,” NBCDFW.com “Appeal denied in John Howard case,” Carrollton Leader “Trial begins for alleged hit man hired by North Texas man convicted of plotting to kill wife,” MySanAntonio.com In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Charles Starkweather and Caril Fugate” by Marilyn Bardsley, Crime Library “Charles Raymond Starkweather” murderpedia.org “The Killing Spree that Transfixed a Nation: Charles Starkweather and Caril Fugate, 1958” by Lesley Wischmann, WyoHistory.org “Charles Starkweather And Caril Fugate Trials: 1958” encyclopedia.com  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about a wacky murder-for-hire plot. Ooh, and I'll be talking about the infamous spree killer, Charles Starkweather. Spree killer? Like the candy? Yeah, he just really murdered some sprees i fucking loved sprees kristin what do you like better sprees or sweet tarts oh man oh i had this battle in my brain yesterday when i was buying you candy for your birthday yeah and i went with Sweet Tarts.

Did I make the right decision? Okay, so as you know, I love Sweet Tarts. See, this is the best. I mean, the fact that we went trick-or-treating together, you know which candy I would trade for. Yeah. I have not had spree since I was a child. Should have gotten you sprees.

The only thing is I really hate the green and you sprees. The only thing is like, I really hate the green and yellow sprees. All right. So maybe I made the right call. Like overall, I like the sweet tarts better. Yeah. All right. But I mean, you give me a red spree.

What about a chewy spree? Do you like the chewies? Those are Zach's favorite. I mean, they're pretty good. Yeah. He likes the chewy sprees. But seriously, infamous spree killer. You mean he went on a killing spree?

He went on a killing spree, yes. I don't think it's said that way. Spree killer. It is! Is it? Yeah! Yes! He's a killer who went on a spree. He's a spree killer. Fucking Google spree killer. I guarantee you he comes up.

Spree killer. A spree killer is someone who kills two or more victims in a short time in multiple locations. What? Boom. It has a whole fucking Wikipedia page. It does. It does. Damn it.

I really, I looked at that. I was was like that's not a thing it's a fucking thing oh look right here um oh no johnny douglas cites charles starkweather and andrew cunanan as examples of spree killers andrew cunanan yeah Did you ever watch that? The Versace? Yeah. I did not. Brandy. Which is crazy because I love those Ryan Murphy shows. I loved the OJ Simpson one. Yeah, it was so good. So good.

Hey, I have a question. Yeah? You know, I was listening to today's episode and I heard an ad for t-shirts at the gaming historian dot com for the low, low price of ten dollars. Uh huh. Is that still going on? Unfortunately, it's not. Now the shirts are thirty dollars. But wait.

Oh, my gosh. This just in. They're back down to ten dollars. Wow. Holy shit. That's a great deal. I'm trying to do that thing where like, you know, you go to search. You missed the deal.

Oh, wait. But act now and we're going to go ahead and extend it. My boss is going to be real pissed at me for doing this. That's right, ladies and gentlemen. Head on over to the gaming historian.com pick yourself up a couple of shirts for the low low price of ten dollars a piece are you ready i'm very ready i don't know anything about this guy okay you're going first oh i'm going first oh shit shit you know what this explains why there have been so many pauses

i keep waiting for you to get your act together. It's a fucking even-numbered episode, Kristen. You go first. Every even-numbered episode since we started this in February. Who are you? What are we doing? You're just a lady who shows up at my house. Okay, well, this is excellent for me to know. I now don't think that you're struggling to get your stuff together. I realize I'm struggling.

News to me. Wow. So right off the bat, I have to tell you, the majority of this comes from the article How to Not Get Away with Murder by Michael J. Mooney for D Magazine. Who, I took one of his articles for the Affluenzateen. This guy is a hell of a writer. Excellent.

I love his stuff. He does these long forms. This is D Magazine, the one that has the picture of the big veiny dick on the cover. Oh, God. I mean, why do you call your magazine d magazine i don't know what's it is it d for dallas is this a texas thing i assume i assume i don't care for it yeah i mean i think they really need to get up on the vernacular and understand what the d is these people can get really entrenched like there's some sorority. You know that hand signal, like, this is, I'm sorry, this is really disgusting, but

two in the pink, one in the stink, you know that? The shocker. The shocker. I am, I am, yes, I am aware of what the shocker is, Kristen. Okay. Okay, well, here's the deal. When I used to work at the university, I saw a picture. Listeners, please note that Kristen and i both are displaying the shocker on

our hands right now this is such a messed up story so i did pr for a university and i saw on one of the university websites that a young woman was giving the shocker in a photo and i was like oh my gosh first of all it's a woman and, this, like, nicely dressed woman giving the shocker in this photo on a major website. And so I called up the person who was in charge of the website and had, like, the most awkward conversation. I was like, uh, uh, hello. Hello. So I like very uncomfortably explained the shocker in a professional setting. Did you say two in the pink, one in the straight? No.

I tried to be as professional as I could in this. And the lady was like, explain to me that. Oh, no, actually, no actually that's that's a that's just like the symbol that that sorority uses they've used it forever and i guess they just don't care oh my god norman norman just went okay guys man what a shit show of an episode let me finish by saying that it's like the symbol that that sorority uses they don't care they know it's the shocker they don't care that it's the shocker they're sticking to it all this religious art where jesus is doing that hand symbol they should censor all it does have an

alternate meaning somewhere but woof woof woof woof indeed do you care to to explain what your husband was just doing oh god should we go ahead go ahead norman is outside doing some yard work today there's lots of leaves outside and so he's wrangling them up bagging them and uh he has when he fills a bag, he then carries it to the front of the house, which means that he walks by the window that we're recording in front of. And he just did some dance moves for us as he was. He's having a lot of fun today. Bagging the leaves and then like bebopping back into the backyard. So this episode is going to be a total mess. Yes.

Well, I think it's enjoyable so i'm good well it's all about you i'm very entertained and that's what matters no one's listening okay so michael j mooney d magazine got it how to not wow that was a tangent i apologize oh maybe i mean can we start all over again okay frank and nancy howard had what seemed like a pretty good marriage frank's dad who was a baptist preacher officiated their wedding ceremony in 1983 they eventually had three children, Ashley, Jay, and Brianna, and they settled into Carleton, Texas, which is an upscale suburb of Dallas, Texas. These two were living their life by the book. They were always at church. And if they weren't at church, Nancy was off being super mom and Frank was off bringing home the bacon as an accountant. Excellent.

Their life wasn't perfect. I mean, they'd had some health problems and their marriage didn't have the spark that it once had. But, you know, by 2009, all three of the kids were adults. They were out of the house. And Nancy had hoped that she and frank would start to spend more time together and kind of get back that spark that they once had had they tried the shocker oh god gross sorry you don't seem sorry you seem real pleased

ma'am can you not touch your microphone while we're recording i'm sorry i know i was i was gonna i'm gonna cut that weird sound that made or will i my dad has started making fun of me for the number of times that i say i'm gonna i'm gonna cut that yeah yeah i love it i realize now that if someone wanted to create a drinking game for the podcast they would pass out before the end of it no here's a recipe for passing out yeah um drink every time brandy laughs oh oh my gosh yeah people would be dead don't do this don't someone would die of alcohol poisoning okay we're we're stopping this bingo game right here so their life wasn't perfect but they had hope. Nancy wanted to spend more time together, but instead, Frank came home and announced that he'd just taken on a new business client. And he was going to be out of town.

Oh, wow. A lot. Frank's new client was Richard Raley. Richard made millions of dollars supplying ice to troops in Iraq which I didn't know that was a thing didn't know you could make millions you can make millions of dollars at that there are crazy ways he got the money he got the millions of dollars military contract yeah he got like a defense contract and he's breaking it in how's he getting it over there they got like freezer planes i don't know this is like i don't know this is a weird part of the story but this

story is so let me tell you this story is so freaking okay all right sorry i won't focus on the ice planes okay um movie idea so the deal is richard's accountant had recently died. He needed a new one, so he asked Frank to help him move more than $30 million from Kuwait to the United States. Frank said, sure. Got it. Seemed like a pretty sweet gig. Frank got to use the private jet. He started making a ton of money. He traveled all over the place. And Richard Raley eventually named Frank the CFO of his company. Wow. But all that traveling was hard on Frank and Nancy's marriage. In the summer of 2009, Nancy went on a missions trip. The article said she went on a missions trip to Africa, which I'm like, there's lots of countries in Africa.

Yeah. But anyway, just Africa. Africa. Africa. The whole country. Yeah. I mean, continent. So Nancy went on this missions trip,

and Frank went to Lake Tahoe on business. Excellent. Practically the same. It was there that Frank met Suzanne Leontief. Suzanne, get this, was a 50-something dental hygienist who was beautiful with a youthful glow and two daughters. Oh, is that my mom? Everyone, the surprise in this story is that Brandy's mom is involved.

No, I was cracking up when i read that because i was like that's a pretty good description of brandy's mom a pretty dental hygienist in her 50s okay so she and frank immediately hit it off they gambled together they drank they exchanged numbers. They really enjoyed spending time together. In fact, they enjoyed it so much that they got together the next weekend in Reno. They were both pretty upfront about their situations. Both of them were married, but Suzanne was separated and her divorce was in the works. And it seemed like Frank's marriage was going to end soon, too. Suzanne said that Frank talked constantly about divorcing his wife. Time passed.

What's wrong, Brandy? You think something's going to get a little weird here? I bet that his wife doesn't know their marriage is about to end in divorce. Yeah, poor Nancy is sitting at home thinking, oh, the spark's gone, but, you know, we'll get that back. Things are all right. Oh, gosh. We can try out this new thing someone told me about called the shocker. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it.

So time passes. Frank and Suzanne grow closer. They talk on the phone. They meet up every few weeks. Frank did romantic things for Suzanne. For example, he had to create... Stop it. You guys, Brandy is making the shocker. You started it.

No, not well. Technically, I i did but i didn't think it was going to become a theme the theme of this episode themed episodes so for example he had to create holding corporations to move richard raley's money around. So he named a few of the companies after Suzanne. One he called SLH, which would be her initials. If she married him? Yep. Gross! I don't like him.

Uh, no. Then he showered her with money. Am I safe to call him a super douche or is he going to die? Oh, you're safe. You're super safe a super douche or is he going to die? Oh, you're safe. Okay, good. You're super safe. Super douche.

He helped pay for her oldest daughter to go to college. He bought her a house worth $900,000. He paid cash for it. What the fuck? Mm-hmm. Is he pilfering money off of this guy or is he just making that much money doing this? Good question. Okay.

But that seems like a lot of money to be making, don't you think? Uh, yeah. He paid for their trips to the Bahamas. He paid for them to go to the Super Bowl. He created an IRA for her. He sent her $500,000. And then he sent her $200,000. What the fuck?

Then he added her to the payroll of Richard Raley's company because she needed health insurance. Suzanne was a big fan of all this. I'm sure she was. She was like, Frank, let's do this. Divorce your wife. Let's make this thing official.

Because, good Lord, if I'm getting all of this while I'm not married to you. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine how much I'd be entitled to if we were married. Well, and can you imagine how much fun you'd be having with a guy who was throwing around cash like that? $500,000 at a time. That's the exact amount I would like. Yeah, if any of our listeners have five hundred thousand dollars sitting around hey are you the accountant for a company that brings ice to soldiers so he'd always be like yeah yeah i totally want to divorce my wife um but here's this excuse so now at this point in time, I would like to tell you.

I'm sorry. I was waiting for an actual excuse. He just gives a different excuse each time. Oh, health problems. Oh, you know. I got it. I apologize for that blank pause. That's OK.

It's kind of like the beginning of this episode when I thought you were going to start talking. Now I'd like to tell you a totally unrelated tale. Okay. It's completely unrelated, and please don't try to link these two in any way. Oh, okay. Okay. Let's talk about a career criminal named Billy Earl Johnson.

Hmm. What choice did he have when he was given a name like Billy Earl Johnson? Yeah, you've got one thing to do in life, and it's smoke meth. And have a rockin' mullet. For sure. So he's in his 50s. He's a big fan of meth and motorcycles. Excellent.

He's spent a lot of time in prison, but in February 2009, he got out. A few months later, Billy gets a phone call. It's from a man who says his name is John. John said, hey, we don't know each other, but I've heard about you, and you seem like the kind of guy who could kill my wife for me. Okay. Billy's like, whoa. I don't know what Billy had gone to prison for, but it definitely was not murder. Yeah.

Billy says later that he had no intention of killing anyone. But he got the sense that this John guy had a ton of money. So Billy's like, idea. I'm just going to string this guy along and get a bunch of money from him.

So he agrees to meet John. They meet in the parking lot of a Western Ware store. Ooh. John's like, hi. Here's $60,000 in cash. And here's a photo of my wife, Nancy Howard. Make it look like an accident.

Billy is like, sure thing, man. No problem. I will for sure kill your wife. No worries. You've come to the right place. Then Billy goes back home and he makes it rain he buys drinks he buys dinners he's buying drugs he's just handing out hundred dollar bills oh my all over the place he and his girlfriend stacy had a good old time they

shopped till they dropped did a bunch of meth and had a ton of sex. I mean, that was just like, they had fun. But then the fun came to an end. Billy got arrested for possession. The police confiscated the rest of the cash. How much was left after all that? Ten bucks? Probably. Probably.

I mean, I assume not much at all. Billy got out on bond and he called John. He said, hey, man, I need more money. And John's like, okay. They meet up again. This time, John forks over $35,000. You're not going to believe what Billy did with that money. I bet he bought drugs and drinks.

He opened up a 401k. No, you're right. So he goes on his shopping sprees, buys more drugs, buys more stuff. Oh my gosh. You're not going to believe what happened next. Did he get caught again with drugs? He went to jail again. So this cycle continues.

Oh my gosh. Billy is living large, despite the fact that he is very much unemployed. He starts getting tons of money rolling in, and he doesn't appear to be doing anything to earn it. Billy brings more of his friends in on this scheme. At one point, his girlfriend Stacy went along with him to one of the meetings with John. She thought John was super nice and polite, but when he wasn't paying attention, she took a picture of him just in case something went wrong. Oh my gosh. Around this time, Billy hired his friend Charlie to be his bodyguard.

Billy hired his friend Charlie to be his bodyguard. So Charlie starts to accompany him to these meetings. At one point, they got $83,000 from John. They spent it on meth. Wow. How expensive is meth? My God. I don't know. Never bought meth. I feel like you could fill a bathtub with that much meth, right? Probably.

So meanwhile, John is pretty stoked about his wife being murdered. He's like, Billy, Charlie, I don't mean to tell you guys how to do your job, but maybe you could make it look like a burglary. I mean, my wife has like $40,000 worth of jewelry. Maybe you could steal all of it and then set the house on fire. Okay. Or, or, and I'm just spitballing here. Nancy likes to go out to lunch with her friends.

Maybe you could go to the restaurant, shoot her, and just spray bullets all around. Just, you know, make sure she gets that attention first. But you could kind of divert the attention. Wow. Or. Another idea. Another idea. You just have to jab my head here. She's got a book club.

Oh. Maybe you kill her at book club. What, you poison the tea? Yeah, I'm wondering, like, that seems. That seems like the worst idea of them. I think John should stick to being an accountant. Yes! So, you know, he's still going, he's like,

hey, there are no bad ideas in brainstorming, here's another idea. She's going to a scrapbooking retreat. Maybe you could kill her there. Mm-hmm. But here's the thing. That's a thing? A scrapbooking retreat. Maybe you could kill her there. Mm-hmm. But here's the thing. That's a thing? A scrapbooking retreat?

I, listen. This, this lady had some very wholesome hobbies, clearly. I mean, she's got the book club, she's got lunch with friends, she's got scrapbooking.

Meanwhile, her husband Uh-huh. has a frickin' mistress in Lake Tahoe. Mm-hmm. And is embezzling what looks like to be millions of dollars from his new client. What? What? Brandy, the next thing out of your mouth better not be that John and Frank are the same person.

They are clearly the same person just a fun little note here frank's full name is john franklin howard excellent yeah so here's the problem with this whole scheme billy was not the most motivated hitman. He kind of just enjoyed getting the money. So, like, they'd make a plan, and then he'd be, like, super drunk and wouldn't be able to get out of the hotel room. Right. Or he'd, oops, get caught with drugs, wind up in jail.

Or, oops, something else would go wrong. Whoopsie. Every time, he'd be like, John, don't worry. We're super close to getting this thing done. I just need a little more money. And John would give him more money. What the fuck is John doing?

You should have moved on to a different hit man by now. I really don't understand what he was thinking. Yeah. Maybe he thought I'm in too deep. Yeah. This guy has this information on me. It's a crime just to solicit a hit. The hit does not actually have to take place.

Well, Brandy, he's just shopping around. It's just window shopping, really. It's not a crime. So a year passes. John keeps sending them money. And Billy didn't have a bank account. So he'd have John wire money to some of his family and some of Stacy's family. And then those family members would get a cut of it.

So like all these people are getting involved in this plot. Wow. And more and more people are getting just tons of money. Because like, you know, Billy andacy would give whoever had the bank account like 10 or 20 percent of whatever the money was yeah billy says that john gave him about a million dollars in cash wow about a million dollars in bail bonds and about 750 000 in wire transfers. Holy shit. Billy was like, treat yo self. He bought go-karts for his grandkids. He got motorcycles for his children.

He bought himself a Chevy Avalanche, a boat, a camper, and he bought his buddy Charlie a riding lawnmower. Woo! Life was good. Mm-hmm. But he keeps getting arrested. Yeah. Eventually, Billy and Stacey got arrested together.

At this point, they had 10 grand in cash and too much meth. Yeah. So much. Intent to distribute meth? It was like facing federal charges meth. So Stacey was pretty scared. Yeah. And she broke down.

She told an FBI agent the whole story. She's like, there's this rich guy named John. He's giving us insane money because he wants us to kill his wife. There was just one problem. The story sounded so crazy that the FBI didn't believe it. They didn't buy it. Oh, my gosh.

They're like, nice try, Stacey. Yeah. Wow. Holy shit. And Stacey wasn't the only one who talked to authorities. At one point, Charlie got arrested. and he told the whole story too no one believed him either oh my gosh this story is so crazy oh my gosh at this point it's been two years since that initial phone call bill Billy is rolling in money. He's got so much money that his nephew actually moved to Texas

just to get in on whatever was happening. You know, he visited, saw, hey, my uncle doesn't do anything. Yeah. And yet he's living like a king. Yeah. But here's the thing. Nancy is still alive and well.

Yeah. She's still going to the scrapbooking stuff. She's still going to book club. John is a little miffed. Now we're in May of 2012. Billy and John have agreed to meet at Bass Pro Shops. And Billy's annoyed because Stacy invited Billy's nephew and her son to come along. So he's thinking, too many people are getting involved in my scheme here.

But John didn't seem worried. He was just like, hey, let's get this job done. I've got a great idea. How about this? Nancy is planning a little trip to San Marcos, Texas. How about you kill her there? Texas. How about you kill her there? I'll give you $100,000 from her life insurance policy plus $5,000 a week for the rest of your lives. Holy

shit. Everyone's like, cool. Wow. Sounds great. But then, you're not going to believe this, Billy and Stacy got arrested for meth. believe this billy and stacy got arrested for mess so this is when things start getting messier stacy's son dustin moved in with billy's nephew michael by the way the article actually has like a chart oh my people because there's like so many people get involved so st Stacy's son, Dustin, moves in with Billy's nephew, Michael. At this point, Dustin starts working with John directly. I think he initially called John because he wanted bail money for his mom and Billy.

But in the phone call, John's like, Dustin, can you do this job? And Dustin's like, I, I think I can. They meet up. John gives Dustin $24,000. And John says, hey, hey, hey, little tip for you. Nancy is going to be at a Mothers of Preschoolers convention soon. She'll be at the Gaylord Texan Hotel. Maybe you could beat her to death with a baseball bat.

What the fuck? Yep. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So Dustin is like, great. Sounds good. He goes back home. You're not going to believe how he spent the money.

He bought meth. He bought a ton of meth. Shared it with anyone who wanted some. Oh my gosh. Then he took a whole bunch of photos posing with the money and then he posted those photos to Facebook. Oh my gosh.

That's what I do anytime I get a paycheck. Cash it out. And it's just like me smiling this is crazy i should i should pause here and say there is an amazing dateline episode about this story that i couldn't watch like they don't they only have a few of them online at a time yeah but norman and my mom and dad and I watched this Christmas Eve last year. It was like the best Christmas Eve ever. Because this story is so entertaining.

Oh my gosh. So you're not going to believe this, but Dustin blew through that money pretty quickly. Yeah. And was he like, hey, John, I need more money. Uh-huh. And John was like, great. John, I need more money. Uh-huh. And John was like, great. Here's $100,000. Pretty much.

I feel like you're really good at spotting patterns. Yeah, so he calls John, asks for more. John's like, absolutely. Why not? And John says, I'm going to leave the money behind a water meter of this house that I own. Mm-hmm. So Dustin gets his friend Jason and they drive over to Carlton, Texas

to get the money. Mm-hmm. There was one problem. They were high as kites. They were so high. Oh my gosh. They got super lost. They had no idea where they were. high they got super lost they had no idea where they were they spent hours driving through this upscale neighborhood which i don't know how big this neighborhood was but you can't

spend hours unless you're going up and down the same street over and over again so they're stopping they're getting out they're driving around again I'm going to guess these two characters didn't fit in real well. I'm guessing. Because someone called the cops on them. The officer pulls them over. And she's like, what's going on here? And Dustin's like, I'm trying to find my uncle's house. Or I mean, my stepdad's house

uh wait oh um not my stepdad uh i'm looking for a family friend's house so the officer's like okay why don't you come on into the station because these two are such a mess yeah and that's where dust Dustin tells the whole story. He's like, all right, you caught me. I'm a hit man. A man named John hired me to kill his wife. That's why we're there.

Uh-huh. Feels so good to get it off my chest. But he doesn't believe him. The police were like, this dude is high on meth. He's not making any sense at all. He thinks he's a hit man. Oh my gosh. So they let both guys go. this dude is high on meth. He's not making any sense at all. He thinks he's a head man. So they let both guys go. Oh my gosh. But there was one person who did believe Dustin's story.

It was his buddy Jason who'd been out driving with him all night. So Jason goes home to his wife Stephanie and he, hey, Dustin is getting a ton of money from this rich guy who wants his wife to be killed. And by the way, I copied down the rich guy's phone number. Stephanie was pumped. She's like, I would also like all of this money. So they call the number and they make up fake names for themselves. They're like, we are Wes and Tiffany and we know all about

this murder for hire plot. And if you don't pay us, we'll tell the cops. Okay, Wes and Tiffany. John was scared. He was like, okay, okay, let's meet at the

Whataburger. Ooh. I know. Good choice. Solid choice. Excellent choice. You know, that's my thing about Kansas City. We don't have a Whataburger.

No Whataburger. Norman has said if he ever gets super rich, he wants to open a Whataburger franchise. I say he will eat up all the profits. Oh, 100%. But i think it would be it'd be so successful yes people fucking love whataburger crinkle fries oh so good and they do the cheese okay we're gonna get hungry i can't i can't even talk about it anytime we're at a place that has a whataburger we always stop same i love whataburger yeah this episode is brought to you by whataburger whataburger

isn't that their slogan i have no idea i have a little whataburger table tent at my house that i stole from a whataburger when I was visiting Zach in Houston circa 2005. I hope the police are listening. You stole property and you took it across state lines. That's right. Federal crime. Federal crime. Lock her up.

Lock her up. Okay, so John shows up to meet Wesess and tiffany and he gives them three thousand bucks a few days later he gives them 12 grand wow a few days later he gives them 20 grand wow then the tables turn john starts calling them he He's like, hey, I've been working with these yahoos for like two years. My wife is still alive. Can you help me? Can you find someone

who will do this job? If you do, I'll give you 50 grand as a finder's fee and I'll give the murderer 100 grand. Holy shit. Are you ready for this next part oh i don't know i don't think i can handle it stephanie aka tiffany is like interesting so she dyes her hair black and she meets with john and she says says she's Tiffany's sister, Stephanie.

Oh, my gosh. So she's going to get both the finder's fee and the murder fee. I don't know exactly what her plan was, but she walked away from that meeting with $10,000. Wow. And later she was questioned by a lawyer about all this, and the lawyer said something. I didn't write this down, but something to the effect of, did you really think he was that stupid?

And she's like, uh, he is. He is! He is that stupid! So it's still 2012, and more people are getting involved in this plot. Billy's nephew, Michael, did some jail time, and his cellmate was also named Michael. And the two Michaels

talk about the murder for hire plot. Eventually they're out of prison. Michael the nephew sends the other Michael a thousand bucks and says hey why don't you and your fiance Misty come visit me in East Texas. So Michael and Misty go to East Texas and the two Michaels are there and they're like, hey, everyone, we're going to go off on our own for a while. So they just ditch Misty with these people she doesn't know. So she's like playing on Facebook. She's, you know, not pleased. When the two Michaels came back around midnight, Misty noticed that her fiance was acting night misty noticed that her fiance was acting super weird he was quiet and this dude was never quiet and he would not stop drinking and he was never a big drinker later when they were alone he spilled the story she says that he told her he just shot a woman in the face. Nancy.

So let's back up. John has been trying to get someone to kill his wife for like two years. Yeah. He's thrown a ton of money at all these random people. Yeah. Do you have a total? No, I don't have a total. I can't.

I mean. But I mean. We'll get to toward the end. You're going to get a scope of it. But I mean, who the hell knows yeah tons of money but meanwhile his wife nancy is just thinking that she's in a not so great marriage yeah she has no idea what he's been up to this whole time holy shit can you imagine no no no oh my god you think you're in just kind of a boring marriage yeah and he's actively plotting to kill

you yeah for years now yes holy shit the day of the shooting she started her morning by going to church there was this women's tea at the first baptist church so she goes does that comes back home then she went back to the church that evening for a friend's baptism. Frank was out of town on business. So he said. Yeah, he was with his hygienist. Yeah. Doing oral stuff.

Sorry. By the time she left the church, it was like 730 p.m. She had no idea that she was being followed. Nancy starts driving home, stops at Taco Bueno. She orders a steak fajita, then she gets home. She's got the place to herself. Her plan is just to relax in front of the TV and eat her steak fajita. Yeah.

She pulls into the garage. She gets out of her car. She's got the Taco Bueno bag in one hand, her purse into the garage. She gets out of her car. She's got the Taco Bueno bag in one hand, her purse in the other. And then someone grabs her by the neck and puts a gun to her head. Nancy panics. She starts struggling against him. She eventually turns to face him. And she sees this stranger.

He was this 20-something guy with facial hair and a gun. He started yelling at her, give me your purse, give me your purse. So she starts panicking and she accidentally hands him the Taco Bueno bag. And like she like kind of realizes, oh my God, and she gives him the purse, kind of shoves him.

And at the same time, he raises the gun to her face. She yells, Jesus, save me. And the guy time he raises the gun to her face she yells jesus save me and the guy shot her in the head oh my gosh nancy passed out she didn't die no she eventually came to she said she heard god's voice telling her to get up. She crawled to her car. So she knew her phone was in her purse and her purse was gone. So that was not an option. But she figured she could get to her car and hit the on star button for help. So she crawls, pushes herself up, gets ready to hit the button, realizes her keys were in her purse.

Oh, shit. So she stands up. She slips in her own blood as she's trying to get into the house. She walks past the laundry room, sees herself in the mirror. She's covered in blood, and her left eye is missing. Oh! Yeah. Oh!

How you don't pass out from that? I don't know. Oh, my gosh. She makes her way to the phone she calls 9-1-1 and this oh this 9-1-1 call it is rough because i mean it's clearly affecting her speech she's been yeah and she's like trying to get the words out and she's like please help me please help me and the dispatcher did such a good job she was was like, helps on the way, just, you know, stay with me, answer my questions. And she was able to say, you know, that she'd been shot, that it was a mid-20s to late-20s guy with facial hair. Like, she was able to give what information she could in that moment. Holy shit. So. I have, like, goosebumps all over. I know,

Holy shit. So. I have, like, goosebumps all over. I know, I know. It's crazy. Oh, my gosh. An ambulance arrives. She's brought to the hospital. Police notified her three children, and one of them called Frank.

Turns out Frank was not on a business trip. He was hanging out at a casino. I know, I know. We're all surprised. we're all betrayed he was at a casino in reno with his girlfriend suzanne suzanne says frank was devastated by the news he was sobbing so he got back to dallas as quickly as he could i can't remember the exact chain of events but like he tried to use the company jet, but that was being used.

They couldn't get a flight from where they were. So like Suzanne drove him to the nearest airport. Meanwhile, police are looking at this thing and they're like, this is weird. Why would someone kill this woman? She doesn't appear to have any enemies. She's just this sweet church going stay at home mom who would want to shoot her so they start to develop this theory that well i mean

obviously it had to have been been just a robbery gone wrong but then they found nancy's purse in a dumpster. Her wallet still had cash in it. So they're like, okay, this isn't adding up. They start talking with the husband. They tell Frank, we need to see your phone just, you know, to help eliminate you from the list of suspects. On his phone, they didn't find anything about a murder for hire plot, but they did realize that Frank was having a huge affair. Yeah. At this point, Frank is like, hey, I know this looks bad, but please let me be the one to break this to my wife and kids.

So he does. He says, I messed up. I've been having an affair for the past three years, but I had nothing to do with this attempted murder. Nancy was devastated. She asked for a divorce. She was so upset that Frank had been unfaithful to her. She said she had suspected that maybe something was going on,

but she was very betrayed. But she believed that he had nothing to do with the shooting oh my gosh it was just like you know you wouldn't though yeah you wouldn't there's no way you would think that no i mean that's so crazy yeah but police weren't so sure they looked at surveillance footage from the church and saw that nancy had been followed by a silver Nissan, which was the car that one of the Michaels had rented. Police pulled up that old, strange police report from the night that Dustin and his friend

had been driving around high in Nancy's neighborhood. That night, Dustin said he was a hitman and that he was hired to kill John's wife. Maybe that wasn't just nonsense oh maybe I do want to pause and say one thing here because on the one hand it's like oh my god what the fuck how how do they not take it seriously but on the other hand I'm sure that all kinds of meth heads tell all kinds of different stories to try and get out of trouble when they've been arrested. And even incriminating stories. Oh, yeah.

It made me think of when I was an intern at a newspaper, there was this guy who would like come into the building almost every day. And he always had some wacky. I mean, he was like a tinfoil hat guy. And I remember one of the- Do you really like him? Oh, huge fan. He smelled great. No, but I remember one of the editors saying, after he just kind of ushered the guy out, saying,

you know, if that guy ever came in with a legit story, we'd never know. Yeah. Because it's true. I mean, with certain people who come at you with all these crazy stories all the time. I love that that's what it reminds you of and not like the boy who cried wolf. The man who cried, you ought to do a story on this. The man who cried, you ought to do a story on this. Okay, fine.

Boy who cried wolf. Have it your way. So they bring in Dustin for questioning. Meanwhile, Billy was in prison. I'm sorry, did Nancy have to get like a glass eye? Yeah, I mean, she had all these surgeries. How does she look now? I mean, she like a glass eye? Yeah. I mean, she had all these surgeries. How does she look now? I mean, she has a glass eye. She has like really long bangs that she uses to cover one eye.

At the end, I'll have you Google her. Okay. She has these really pretty eyes. And like, luckily, she didn't suffer much brain damage or anything. But the bullet went in. It entered from the left, went down her sinuses. Oh, yeah. And, like, landed in her right lung.

Oh, my gosh. I mean, she really suffered a lot, but, I mean, how amazing that she didn't. No. No kidding. She didn't die, you know? So, Billy was in prison, and he found out that Nancy had been shot. So he was like, hello, I've got info. I'm happy to share it.

Yeah. If you're looking for John, I can point you right to him. At first, investigators were a little suspicious. But Billy was like, hey, if I don't know anything, why do I know the make and model of Nancy's car? And why do I have John's number memorized? Investigators were like, oh, OK. So they they had some in this episode of a podcast I listened to, they had some audio of the interview. Billy sounds hilarious. Billy's like this very country guy

and he's like, look, you know, I know what's going on. You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. And the investigator's like, well, I'm trying to get justice. I don't think this lady deserved it. And he's like, look, man, I don't think so either. I don't think she deserved it, but I'll take this to my grave. I know the whole story.

Oh my gosh! It was really funny. And and the investigator just trying to get the info i don't know what billy got for telling his story but you know oh my gosh i hope like a bag of meth yeah like an extra packet of ramen i mean i don't know i don't know what a story like that is worth i don't know the market value so they start talking to people in billy's circle and they realize oh that dustin kid is billy's girlfriend's child yeah the puzzle pieces start coming together they talk to stacy and she's like uh i actually have a picture of john oh my gosh here it is police look at the picture it's frank Frank. Yep. John Franklin Howard.

Oh, my gosh. Then Misty came forward. She told police that her then-fiance had told her about shooting a woman in the head. By that point, police had enough. Mm-hmm. Michael Speck and Michael Lawrence were charged with aggravated robbery and conspiracy to commit capital murder. So they were both charged. Police arrested Frank.

He was charged with attempted capital murder. People were stunned. I'm not. No. So it's, I mean, the guy basically led a double life. Yeah, exactly. And so, like, the church going thoughts were like, what? Yeah, if you only knew him

as nancy's husband yeah yeah you would be shocked what about suzanne or whatever her name is was she shocked i think she was pretty shocked too wow all right because i think they were just like having fun she was in love blah blah blah i i truly think she had nothing to do with this there was there's no evidence to support that she knew so at first nancy was like no he could never do this to me you have it all wrong but then in august of 2014 frank's trial began the courtroom was packed all of frank's family came out to support him nancy and her supporter sat on one side and frank's supporters including their three children sat on his side what okay that was the weirdest thing about this dateline episode and i wish i could have re-watched it because i feel like the son i can't remember what the son said but i remember the two daughters

were still adamant that their dad never could have done this yeah oh that's rough uh yeah yeah i i cannot even imagine nancy took the stand to talk about their marriage and how it had gone downhill. She talked about the shooting and all the surgeries she'd had. The defense cross-examined her and was like, yeah, but he donated a lot of money to the church, right?

What? And when your mom needed a car, he gave her a car, right? And to your knowledge, she's never been convicted of a crime, right? And to your knowledge, he's never been convicted of a crime, right? And she's like, yeah. He's a great guy. Yeah, basically.

Wow. Because I think part of the defense strategy was this idea that like, oh, he's been blackmailed into all this. You know, this isn't him. And so they've got to somehow interject that, oh, he's just this great guy. Wow.

So Nancy was like, yeah, I mean, that's all true. Yeah. It's also true that he tried to get me killed. Yeah. Then Suzanne took the stand. She talked about the three-year-long affair she'd had with Frank. One of the news sources I saw said that she giggled nervously all through her testimony, which I wish I could have seen video of that. Oh, my gosh.

That had to be weird. Yeah. She talked about their affair and how Frank had constantly talked about getting a divorce. Then the defense cross-examined her, and they asked her to describe how Frank reacted when he got that call that Nancy had been shot. And she was like, yeah, I mean, he seemed devastated. The defense was pretty pissed that the prosecution was spending so much time on the affair. Defense attorney Ricky Parrott said, He's not on trial for having an affair.

Is that Rick E. Parrott or Ricky Parrott? That's it, Ricky Martin. Excellent. Thank you for clarifying that for me. No problem. Then the prosecution called Billy Johnson and Stacy Serenco. Oh, Lord. I love it.

I'm a big Billy fan. So they were brought in to testify from prison. And the two of them told the whole story. Billy talked about getting that initial phone call and all the money he got out of Frank. Then Charlie, Billy's bodyguard, testified. And he was like, yeah, I heard Frank talk multiple times about wanting his wife to be dead.

Dustin testified. Stephanie dead. Dustin testified. Stephanie testified. Jason testified. Misty testified about her fiance's confession. Everyone in this whole messy scheme testified. The author of this article at one point called it like a Coen Brothers movie, which I think is like the perfect. That is perfect. This would be such a good movie.

Yeah. The defense was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on. Jury. Jury. Are you guys buying this? These people are criminals. They're all meth heads. Have you seen their arrest records? You can't listen to these people.

You need to listen to the people who really know him. Frank and Nancy's three children all testified about how their dad was a kind and compassionate man. I think Frank's dad also testified. The defense argued that Frank had been blackmailed into working with these people. The defense said, Frank had no reason to hire a hitman. It didn't make make sense it wasn't like he was afraid of getting divorced he'd been married before before he and nancy got married he'd been married for a little while and

that marriage ended in divorce so clearly he wasn't one of these guys who says i can never get divorced therefore i have to kill my spouse which i think is a fairly strong argument i agree and it's not like he was afraid of the money he would lose right in a divorce because he paid way too much for this hit yeah yeah are you ready for what i think is a very good explanation for all this yeah okay the prosecution called frank's old business partner richard Raley, to the stand. Richard had fallen on hard times. He testified in an orange prison uniform, which I would love to know how many people testified from jail. He was in jail for prescription pill charges.

Excellent. He testified that over a three-year period, Frank had embezzled more than $30 million from him. Some of Frank's other clients claimed that he'd ripped them off, too. So that gave prosecutors a theory. It wasn't that Frank was afraid of divorce in the general sense. He was afraid of divorcing Nancy because he knew that if they got divorced, his finances would be exposed.

And suddenly, all of these financial misdeeds would be out in the open. Yeah, because if you're of certain means and you're getting a divorce, there's like a forensic accountant who gets involved

and looks at it so that neither parties are stashing money anywhere. Oh, so it totally would have come out. Yeah. And he would have gone to prison. Yep. Yep. So rather than have that happen, he's going to prison.

Yeah. The jury deliberated for two hours. So instead of going to prison for embezzlement, he's going to prison for attempted capital murder. Not for lack of trying, Brandi. So they found him guilty. After the verdict, Nancy read a victim impact statement. She addressed it to Frank and to John as a reference to the double life he led in their marriage.

She said that early on in their relationship, he said that his downfall was girls, green, and glory. Three Gs. She goes, they got you, didn't they? Nancy! she goes, they got you, didn't they? Woo! Nancy! Huh. Then she said that she forgave him.

She forgave him for cheating on her. She forgave him for trying to have her killed. I know. Whew. Wow. Better person than I am. Yeah. She had one request. She said that he had the key to the hearts of their children.

I was going to say, yes, he needs to own up because his children have taken his side. Yes. They believed he was innocent. She said, release them from the prison you have placed them in. Give them the freedom to live in truth. Which, oh my God. Oh my gosh, yes. I'm so with her on that.

What a great person to say. No kidding. I forgive you. Now just be honest. Yeah. Because can you imagine what torture that would be for those kids? No, that would be terrible. You've got one parent who's saying,

no, no, I'm innocent. I've been framed or whatever. Yeah. It would be really. Kids, you've got one parent who's saying, no, no, I'm innocent. I've been framed or whatever. It would be really hard not to believe them. So what'd he do? Do you have a guess? I think he maintained his innocence to his children. Where are they now? Frank, oh, wait, sorry.

Backing up. Frank was sentenced to life in prison. The three children left the courtroom without saying goodbye to Nancy. Where are they now? Frank appealed the decision. Because, you know, he's innocent on the grounds that the evidence wasn't sufficient to support his conviction. But his appeal was denied. I think so.

Yeah. They had a quote. I got 800 witnesses. Yeah. They had a quote from, gosh, I think it was the sheriff. And the sheriff was like, no, we're not surprised by this appellate court verdict because we had this guy. We had him for sure. Richard Raley sued Frank Howard for the embezzlement.

In arbitration, he was awarded $8.5 million. Richard also sued First Baptist Church, where Frank donated about $200,000. Oh, yeah. Richard called the donation blood money and said it wasn't his to give. Yeah, but the church couldn't have known that. No, and I don't know. I don't know what came of that. Yeah.

I saw news clippings on that lawsuit. I assume it's been settled out of court. Because the church would have no way of knowing where that money was coming from. But I do wonder what can be done, because like remember Robert Courtney donated a bunch of money to his church. Yeah. And I think the church did something to make that right. I don't remember what the church did. But anyway, Michael Lawrence, who allegedly shot Nancy, was sentenced to 60 years in prison. But he appealed and he was granted a new trial.

Wow. So the appellate court, I just briefly looked at this. The appellate court found that the district court erred in part because of highly prejudicial, erroneously admitted evidence. Oh, OK. So they're going to do a new trial at some point i couldn't find anything on the other michael are you telling me that you're giving us another case that is not completely wrapped up kristin i mean there's a there's a possibility that it is wrapped up and i just couldn't find anything in my google search but no so i couldn't find anything on the

other michael so i wonder if if maybe he testified or he worked with the prosecution. Got a deal. Yeah, got a deal. Billy Earl Johnson is serving a 24-year sentence on drug trafficking charges. As of 2014, Nancy said that her relationship with her three children was still strained. They believed Frank was innocent. Holy shit. It's very complicated. relationship with her three children was still strained they believed frank was innocent holy shit it's very complicated i raised them to love honor and respect their dad and they do oh that

gets you right in the gut oh yeah it really does my gosh uh she's been very open about forgiving frank she said the bible says that if we don't forgive those who harmed us, then we are unable to be forgiven. And I couldn't afford not to forgive him because I couldn't live with the bitterness. Ugh. Can you believe that? No. Fucking Saint Nancy. There's no fucking way.

No kidding. Someone make a statue. Holy shit. So yeah, look her up. Nancy Howard no fucking way. No kidding. Someone make a statue. Holy shit. So yeah, look her up. Nancy Howard. Nancy Howard. Oh yeah, I get what you're saying. Poor Nancy.

Yeah. She looks pretty good though for being shot in the fucking face. Yeah, I think she looks really good yeah oh my gosh that was so good i'm telling you that was like that was a christmas eve i will never forget because that so last year um kyla and jay and you know my niece were out of town and so i think we were all kind of sad like oh you know the little six-year-old won't be with us but the benefit to not having a child around is that then you can watch the dateline christmas special that's right let me tell you about a spree killer which you apparently

had no idea was even a thing no need to rub it in i was so excited to correct you too i was like brandy master i'm gonna say something okay in the mid to late oh fuck i've got windows open here i got nancy's picture still up this is not so when I was chewing candy a minute ago. I was doing nothing. Like a cow chewing on cud. You were just sitting there? Yeah. Okay. Now I'm ready. Oh, go ahead.

In the mid to late 1950s. Oh, fuck. Teenagers in America and around the world, for that matter, were enamored with James Dean. Oh, you love James Dean. I wasn't alive in the 1950s, but I fucking loved James Dean when I was a teenager. I'd post or something on my wall.

And this was, you know, like early 2000s. So why were you so into James Dean? Oh my gosh. I just loved him. He's so good looking. And I just like had that like bad boy thing happening.

So they were people in the 50s, teenagers specifically, were just obsessed with him. Though his life was cut tragically short when he died in a car accident in 1955, it seemed a whole generation of girls were obsessed with his rebellious persona, his style of dress, his devilish good looks, and oh, that hair. And along with that came a whole host of boys who tried to emulate that style. Among them was Charles Starkweather. Oh, no. Born in November of 1938 into a poor but hardworking family in Lincoln, Nebraska, Charles was the third of seven children born to Guy and Helen Starkweather. Guy was a carpenter by trade, but would often have to take time off from his

work due to flare-ups of his rheumatoid arthritis. When he was unable to work, Helen would try to supplement their income by working as a waitress. Though they didn't have much money, the home was a happy one. The same could not be said of Charlie's experiences in school. He'd been born with a mild birth defect that caused his legs to bow. He had a speech impediment and he was labeled a slow learner, all of which he was mercilessly teased for. He dealt with the teasing

by becoming super confrontational and fighting anyone who said anything bad about him. And occasionally people who just looked at him funny oh he became very aggressive and would fight anyone and that's actually how he met bob von bush it's a rough last name that. That's a character building last name. Much like pits. When they were in the ninth grade together, they got into a fight and then became best friends. Bob and Charles were both super into James Dean. They saw all of his movies multiple times. But Charles took it a step further and tried to emulate the rebellious characters he played and took on his signature look.

On his own, Charles Starkweather was a pretty small guy at 5'5", though he was kind of stocky and he wasn't very good looking. But when he took on that James Dean attitude, paired with the tight jeans and the slicked back hair, and had that cigarette hanging out of his mouth, he went up a couple notches. But he still didn't have much luck with the ladies. That is, until Bob introduced him to Carol Fugate in 1956. Bob introduced him to Carol Fugate in 1956. By that time, Charles was 18 years old and working a full-time job unloading trucks at a warehouse, having dropped out of school at the age of 16. So around this time, Bob was dating Barbara Fugate.

And through her, Charles was introduced to Carol, who was her younger sister and 13 years old no ew no well um well he's five five so he has to go after you know he's limited he was quickly smitten with the cute dark-haired girl and the four began to double date regularly. Despite Carol's age. He's 18 and Carol's 13. That's disgusting. This has been a PSA. Charles and Carol's relationship quickly became serious. Hmm.

The warehouse that Charles worked at was just around the corner from where Carol went to school. Yep. So he'd go by each day and have lunch with her. When that wasn't enough, though, he quit his job at the warehouse and took on a job as a garbage man so that he could be off work by the time Carol got out of school. And they spent all of their afternoons and evenings together. Do you need to pause to throw up? I mean, just if anyone out there is having the thought, I need to get a new job so that when my girlfriend gets out of school, I'm home with her.

Ew. Yeah, gets out of middle school. Right? Well, yeah. If she's getting out of college, okay. You know, but. Oh. Oh.

Oh. Carol quickly became the center of charlie's life and he told people that he'd never met anyone who meant as much to him as she did but it wasn't all rainbows and unicorns to everyone else oh was he controlling and weird and people just obviously weren't big fans of the relationship. What with Carol barely being a teenager and all. Like when they started dating, she had just turned 13. She was practically 12. She might not have even had her period. She probably didn't.

It gets better from here, right? Oh, yeah. But Charlie was happy in his relationship with Carol. Oh, well, that's all that matters. But it wasn't until after Carol wrecked his car while he was teaching her to drive that things began to spiral. Carol wasn't old enough to drive because she was fucking 13 years old just just a reminder she's 13 and she charles was teaching her to drive in his car and she wrecked it and she damaged another car

in the accident and charlie's father ended up having to pay for the damage and he was pissed what's he like you let a child into uh-huh and it resulted in a physical altercation between father and son after that charlie's parents kicked him out of the house they're like you can't date a 13 year old in our house get the fuck out of here parents just don't understand so with charlie's family life in jeopardy he became even more hyper focused on his relationship with carol was the only thing in his life that mattered he told people that they were planning to get married he truly wanted to give carol everything she'd ever wanted a childhood starting with a stuffed animal from the gas station but the attendant wouldn't let him buy it on credit that wasn't a

joke that wasn't a joke he literally wanted to buy her a stuffed animal from the gas station. But the attendant would not sell it to him on credit, and he didn't have the money for it. I, my mind is blown. I thought that was a joke about her being a child. It was not. That was real life. Have you ever had a guy buy you a stuffed animal before? Yeah.

Yeah, I hate that well i mean i was like 18 at the time so yeah i mean it was less weird than if like the guy did it now and i'm 32 how old am i 32 and it would be my husband which would be really weird because because he knows better there are many things that i would like better than a stuffed animal yeah i i remember getting stuffed animals and i was like oh great uh this came about 15 years too late so she wants this this stuffed animal from the gas station charlie goes to buy it for he can't buy it they won't give him credit and so he's pissed how's he supposed to provide for this girl that he wants to make his wife when he can't even afford to buy her a stuffed animal rage boiled up inside of him are

you about to tell me that he's gonna to murder someone over this stupid stuffed animal? I don't know. Am I? Oh, no. He needed money and he needed it now. Oh, God. The following day, December 1st, 1957, Charles Starkweather returned to the gas station with a plan. He was going to rob the station. Then he'd have it all. Money, his girl, everything he could imagine wanting. Oh, jeez.

Charlie went to the station with a shotgun, but got a bit nervous when he got there, it seems, because first he went in and bought a pack of cigarettes and left. Then he went back and bought a pack of gum and left. Then the third time, he tied a handkerchief around his face for a disguise. And then went into the station armed with a shotgun. At gunpoint, Charlie forced the attendant, Robert Colvert, to empty the cash drawer. And then ordered him to empty the safe.

Robert told him he didn't have the code for the safe. So Charlie settled for the hundred or so dollars he got from the drawer. But he decided he wasn't done with Colvert. He was going to take him for a ride. Starkweather forced the terrified gas station attendant to drive toward a piece of property on the edge of town. And once they arrived there, Charlie shot Robert Colvert in the head. No!

The robbery and murder quickly made headlines. Great question, Kristen. Because he's a super badass? Yeah. Wow. Cool, man. You showed him. No kidding. This guy was just a young guy working at a gas station.

He had a i'm sorry i'm fucking text message now this is okay sorry it was someone from the salon do they need their hair done no so a client has a question if i offer a service i don't i don't offer it, though. Okay. They'll have to go somewhere else for their anal bleaching. That's right. I don't bleach anuses. So this robbery and murder quickly made headlines in this peaceful Nebraska town.

Are you still laughing about anal bleaching? Maybe. Just the way you said said i don't bleach anuses made it seem like you did other things to anuses just not bleaching it's none of your business kristin fair fair i have an anus free salon leave your anus in the car. This really is the shocker episode, isn't it? So stuff like this just didn't happen in their town. Yeah.

And so people were on edge, like, oh my gosh, how could this happen? This was just this guy who has a new wife with a baby on the way, working at a gas station to support his new family but they never suspected charlie police quickly suspected that it was the work of a transient just passing through town because how could somebody in their town do this right so they weren't even looking into him after the killing charles starkweather was in a state of euphoria. Oh, no. A switch was flipped in him. He was walking on sunshine.

He was outside the law. No one could bring him down. And this feeling lasted him a while. Until one day, January 21st, 1958 to be exact, when he went to pay Carol a visit at the home she lived in with her parents. When Charlie arrived at the home that Tuesday afternoon, Carol's mother, Velda Bartlett, came to the door and she was not happy to see him.

She told him that Carol wasn't home and that she didn't want him seeing her daughter anymore whoa okay an argument ensued and carol's stepfather marion bartlett kicked charlie out of the house do you like why why the sudden i think that carol had told her parents that she wasn't seeing him anymore okay and so i think that they had told her parents that she wasn't seeing him anymore. Okay. And so I think that they had known that there was a relationship early on. Mm-hmm. And then she had told her parents that they weren't seeing each other anymore. And then there was a rumor going around town that Carol was pregnant.

Oh, shit. Which was not true. Uh-huh. But they had believed at this point that he had gotten Carol pregnant. Okay. And so he's not welcome in their home. Yeah. Whatever. true uh-huh but they had believed at this point that he had gotten carol pregnant okay and so he's not welcome in their home yeah whatever so the exact events that take place next are up for debate because the two survivors told tales of varied responsibility but the version i'm going to tell you is the most widely accepted okay so after charlie left carol's home he was fuming he's pissed he drove around for a while and his rage just continued to build

and build and he had never learned how to handle his anger he had always taken it out on the past by beating someone up. Violence. That was his outlet for rage. Yeah. Same. And so, yeah. And so he just, he's just boiling. Yeah. How dare someone try to take the most important thing in his world away from him?

So he formulated a plan. Charlie called Marion's place of employment and told them that Marion, Carol's stepfather, was ill and wouldn't be in to work for a few days. Then he went back to Carol's house and waited for her to come home. When Carol arrived home, he told her all about the argument that had gone on, and she tried to calm him down. She was like, don't worry about it. Let me go in. I'll talk to my mom. Everything's fine.

Yeah. I still love you. Whatever. And so they go in the house. But it did not go well. Things escalated, and the confrontation quickly became physical. Ultimately, Charles Starkweather shot Velda and Marion and then strangled and stabbed Carol's two-and-a-half-year-old sister, Betty.

What? Yeah. Carol's involvement in this is the detail that remains up for debate. As Charles initially said that she had nothing to do with it, and then later changed his story, upping her level of culpability. Okay. Either way, her whole family's killed. Her parents and her baby sister.

So what's the more believed version? That she truly had nothing to do with it? No, that she had involvement in it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how do you just stand yeah yeah yeah so after these murders the young couple cleaned up the house they dragged velda's body to an old outhouse on the property oh no like shoved her down the hole oh gross yep and then they they took Marion's body to the chicken coop. And then they put the baby's body in a box and took it out to the outhouse as well.

Oh, God. Over the next six days, Carol and Charles stayed at the house eating junk food. What? Watching TV, having sex, and warding off visitors with different stories including a sign on the door that said stay away everybody is sick with the flu and they misspelled flu did they put an e on it they did yeah how did I know? But over the course of those six days, friends and family members, including Carol's sister Barbara, who was now married to Charles' best friend Bob, became increasingly suspicious of the situation. Of the flu-y. Yeah, the flu-y.

And tried multiple times to get the police involved. At one point, the police did actually come out to the house. But Carol was able to convince them that everything was fine. And they refused to look into it any further. Really? Yeah, they came out to the house. Carol answered the door. And they're like, you know, we've got people that are concerned that they haven't seen your parents for a few days. And she's like, my parents are here. They're just really sick. Everybody has the flu. I'm just getting better. I mean, if you want to come in and look, you're welcome to but I really wouldn't recommend it because this thing is obviously super contagious.

pages. And so the police were like, all right, no, no, I think everything's fine. And so they called back Bob and Barbara and they're like, you know, we went to the house. Everything seems okay. Oh my gosh. Time out. Time out for Norman. Norman's poking his little, his little head in. Cute little head. Cute little noggin. Norman's so sweet. Did I tell you, I actually met him when he was 18 and I was 13. I thought he was 13 and you were 18 shut up listen i may be a coug but i'm not a gross coug okay so the police are like totally believing this. They find Carol totally believable. And they're like, sorry to have bothered you. Everybody get well soon.

And they call up Bob and Barbara and they're like, everything seems fine. Oh, no. And so they're like, all right. But Bob just can't shake this feeling that something is going on in there. And he's really dissatisfied with the police's position on matters. So he goes to the house. Oh shit. No,

no, Bob, but he doesn't go in. Okay. He starts looking for evidence that something has gone on in the outbuildings on the property. So he goes into the outhouse. Oh no. Oh Oh. So he goes into the outhouse. Oh no. Oh no.

And he finds. Oh my God. Did he. Carol's mother's body and the body of the baby. Just floating. Yeah. And then he goes to the chicken coop. Oh my God.

And he finds Marion's body. I'm amazed that he continued looking around. I think my rule would be one dead body, then I take the fuck out. Get the fuck out of there. So finally he gets police. He's like, I was just there. The fucking bodies are there. I swear to you, you have to go there.

And so finally the police go to the place. But it's too late. Charlie and Carol are gone. So they must have known that Bob was, yeah, okay. An APB was put out for their arrest, but police could have no idea what they were up to by this point. Oh, Jesus. On January 27th, 1958, Charles Starkweather.

My stomach is so loud. On January 27th, 1958, Charles Starkweather and Carol Fugate had gotten a feeling that their luck was running out. It seemed people were becoming more and more suspicious of their story, so they hit the road. They drove to the home of a longtime family friend of Charlie's, 72-year-old August Meyer, who lived some 20 miles outside of Lincoln on like a big farm. They were there only a short time before Charles shot and killed Mr. Meyer and his dog. He hid the body under a blanket in one of the outbuildings on his property. And then they spent the night in Mr. Meyer's home, eating his food and looking for valuables.

The next day they went to check on the body and were alarmed to find that the blanket was no longer covering it. So Charles was sure that someone was onto them. He's like, someone's been here. Someone found this body. We got to get the fuck out of here. And there's no proof that anybody

had actually been there seen this so it seems like maybe maybe he was just paranoid because of all the murder yes that's a shame so the couple is on the run again in their haste to get away though they managed to get their car stuck in the mud on the road leading to Myers Farm. Okay. They were lucky enough, though, to be picked up by a young couple. No. 17-year-old Robert Jensen and 16-year-old Carol King, who offered them a ride. Oh, no.

Charles and Carol were only in the car with them for a couple of minutes before Charlie pulled out his gun and pushed it against the back of Robert Jensen's head. He forced him to drive them back to the Myers house and led them at gunpoint into the cellar. Oh, my God. Once there, he shot Jensen six times in the head. Why?

Yeah, right? And then attempted to rape Carole King. When he had been unable to do so. Oh, what does that mean? I think he was unable to perform, Kristen. Oh, I bet that sent him into a lovely rage. So he wants to rape her. He's not able to.

So he shot her in the head. Oh. And then stabbed her multiple times in the abdomen and pubic region. Then Charles and Carol left in Robert Jensen's car and headed back toward Lincoln to see if anyone was on to them yet. What? That's so stupid. It's so dumb. The couple was brazen enough to drive right past Carol's house.

And they saw, obviously, a large police presence by this time. And they're like, oh, fuck. Yeah, I guess someone knows. Oh, geez, you just can't kill a bunch of people. But they went totally unnoticed in this stolen car. Oh, my gosh. They weren't in Charles' car anymore. They'd left that in the mud back at the Myers farm.

Yeah. And so the police obviously weren't looking for this car, and so they didn't even notice when they were cruising by the house so the couple then drove to the nicest part of town and slept for the night in their stolen car the following morning charles starkweather rang the bell at the home of c lauer ward one of the wealthiest men in lincoln and a close personal friend of the governor of Nebraska. Mr. Ward was already gone for the day, so his maid, Lillian Fensel, F-E-N-C-L,

answered the door. Charles pulled a gun and forced his way in. Then he waited in the kitchen for Mr. Ward's wife, Clara Ward, to come down for breakfast. Oh, God, that's terrifying. Yeah, imagine that your maid is in your kitchen making up your breakfast. You come down expecting it to be ready, and then there's a fucking man with a gun in your kitchen.

Yeah, waiting for you. Yeah. So she comes into the kitchen. And there's Charles. And she's alarmed, obviously. And he's like, don't worry. Don't worry. Nothing to be worried about.

As long as you do everything I say, nothing bad's going to happen. Charlie then spent the next several hours forcing the wife of the wealthiest man in Lincoln to wait on him hand and foot. What? First he had her making pancakes. Then when she was done, he told her, yeah, you know what? Did I say pancakes? I meant waffles. What? Yes. And so then he has her make him waffles. He has her make him coffee. Has her make Carol coffee. Carol, at this point, reportedly came into the house, had Mrs. Ward make her coffee, and then went and slept in the living room while Charles is having his jollies by having this wealthy woman. Doing this weird power play. Yes.

Yes. But by early afternoon, Charles was tired of this game. Oh, no. So he shot and killed Clara Ward. Oh. Then he turned his attention to Lillian, the maid, whom he tied to the bed and stabbed to death. Oh, my God. He also snapped the neck of one of the family's dogs.

Why? Why? Why? Why? Carol and Charles then spent the rest of the afternoon packing up the Ward's car with food and valuables for their planned escape. They waited at the home until Mr. Ward arrived. He arrived home shortly after 5.30,

and Charles shot and killed him upon his arrival. Charlie knew that these murders would not go unnoticed for long, as this was a high-profile family. Yeah. So the couple decided that they needed to get far away from Lincoln. Oh, and not, like, come back and check in on things? Right. Right.

Yeah, great. They headed for Washington State. And just as Charlie predicted, the bodies of the wards were found early the next day. And the governor offered up a reward and called in the National Guard and aircraft to search for the ward's stolen vehicle. So they had left in the ward's black Packard,

which was like a pretty nice car car and it was going to be pretty easy easy to spot they thought and so they're searching for this vehicle and yeah the governor calls in when the governor's friend is killed yeah yeah they can do whatever the fuck he wants to try and find the person so they're looking for this car carol and charles though had driven all night and by the morning of january 29th they'd made it to wyoming charlie knew authorities would be looking for the car they were in so he began looking for another car to steal and that's when they came upon a traveling salesman named merle collison he was sleeping in his buick on the side of the highway. Charlie woke Merle up and told him,

he's like, hey man, we're going to switch cars. You take my car, I'm going to take your car. And Merle was like, what? Yeah, no. No? No. And so Charlie shot and killed him. Oh God. No. And so Charlie shot and killed him. Oh, God. Then he just pushed the dead body over to the passenger seat. Yeah. And had Carol get in the back seat.

And then got in the driver's seat to drive away in this Buick. Oh. There was just one problem with this Buick, though. Besides the fact that there was a dead guy in the passenger seat. Details, Brandi. Details. It had an emergency brake something that charlie had never seen before and he so he drove with the emergency he couldn't figure out how to disengage it so he couldn't drive away oh my about this time a passing motorist saw two cars on the side of the

road oh no and thought oh my gosh someone must be having car trouble I'm going to help them. Shit. Mm-hmm. And it's like, oh, shit, this doesn't really look good. And then Charlie pulled a gun on him. Oh, my gosh. Charlie was like, dude, show me how to fucking take this emergency break off or I'm going to kill you. Oh, my gosh. Charlie was like, dude, show me how to fucking take this emergency brake off or I'm going to kill you. Oh, my gosh.

So now there's three cars pulled over to the side of the highway. And there's a man standing on the outside of one of the cars with his hands in the air. Uh-huh. And it was about this time when Wyoming Deputy Sheriff William Romer happened upon the scene. Oh, my gosh. Almost immediately when the deputy pulled up, Carol jumped out of the back of the car and ran toward him shouting, Help me! Take me to the police! He's killed someone! Carol.

Carol. Someone. Carol. Carol. So she runs to the deputy and she's like, you've got to help me. He's killed someone. And the deputy is like, well, I am the police. Yeah.

And so he's trying to figure out what the fuck's going on here. Yeah. Carol's talking to him. It's like a fuzzy just landed on my nose. Did you see that? It went through the air like Forrest Gump style. And then, boop. Means you're very special, baby. So this deputy is like, what the fuck is going on?

They've got three cars on the side of the road. I've got this young girl running at me saying somebody's killed someone. I got a man with his hands in there. So he's trying to figure out what's going on. In the meantime, in all of this chaos, Charles manages to get out of the Buick and back into the Packard. No. And he takes off at like 100 miles an hour. You are kidding me. So the deputy calls in to the sheriff's office and is like, we need a roadblock up.

And he calls up in the direction. There happens to be other deputies in the seat in the in the area and so they engage in a pursuit okay with charles starkweather okay it is topping 100 miles an hour it's crazy they start shooting at him what they shoot out the back window of his of this packard this is like a movie All of a sudden, he comes to a stop in the middle of the highway. And they're like, what the fuck's going on? He opens the door.

Did they assume they'd shot him? They didn't know what was going on. Yeah, I think that was like, no, the car wouldn't just come to a stop like that. Never mind. So he gets out of the car. They tell him to put his hands in the air. He doesn't.

He reaches around behind himself. And so they shoot at his feet. And he's like, they thought he was reaching for a weapon. Yeah, of course. He was tucking his shirt in. What? So he tucks his shirt in and then he drops to the ground. And they come over and they take him into custody.

So what made him stop so abruptly in the middle of that highway? Okay. Do you have a guess? I'm going to guess it was something really stupid. Like he thought he was going to hit something. No, no. So when they shot out the window, the shattered glass hit him in the ear and he started gushing blood. And he thought he had been shot. And he thought he was going to bleed to death. Oh, my gosh. Yes. Wow.

So he was like, I better get help before I die. You're kidding me no and it was just like it was just this little nick in his ear from like a little shard of glass that's hilarious is that not amazing yes yes the news of this dramatic capture of this spree killer it's a thing people who looked like a hollywood heartthrob spread like wildfire starkweather's face graced the front page of newspapers across the country and he loved every fucking minute of it may i google him right now yeah yeah okay charles Yeah, okay. Charles Starkweather. Oh, my. Okay, yeah. Not bad. Yeah.

I mean, he's one of these, like, some of these pictures I'm like, ew. But others, you know, he didn't look too bad. Yeah. So Starkweather knew he was facing charges in both Wyoming and Nebraska. Mm-hmm. Charges that would likely result in the death penalty. For sure. So he figured he'd choose which way he wanted to die.

Wyoming used the gas chamber, while Nebraska used the electric chair. So Charlie decided he wanted to die by electric chair. So he and Carol were extradited to Nebraska and charged with a single count of first-degree murder each. So a couple of things here. Okay, yeah. So the prosecutors made the decision to select just one of the cases, the case they felt would have the most impact on the jury and they had the best evidence for.

And so they chose the case of Robert Jensen, the 17-year-old who Charles had shot six times in the head. They thought that that would have the biggest impact on the jury. They thought that that would have the biggest impact on the jury. But what Starkweather didn't know when he made the choice of Wyoming or Nebraska was that the governor of Wyoming was famously anti-death penalty. So his life would have likely been spared had he chosen to go to trial there instead of Nebraska. Wow. Charles and Carol would be tried separately. And initially, Charles seemed willing, seemed to be willing to take all of the blame. But his position on that seemed to quickly change when he learned that carol no longer wanted

anything to do with him so at first he's like she wasn't involved at all this was all me i made her come along you know and then she it she i don't know i think he's like writing her letters and it turns out she's like totally done with him uh-huh and she he's like no no no no she was totally involved in all of it all that stuff i said in the beginning that's all hogwash she was totally involved if i'm going to the electric chair this is like a famous quote of his if i'm going to the electric chair she better be sitting on my lap. Whoa. Yeah. Charles Starkweather was tried first and his trial began on May 5th, 1958.

Cinco de Mayo. Do you think they had margs? For sure they had margs. The prosecution was like, I'd like more chips and salsa. Thank you. So this was less than five months after the murders. I think it's amazing how different it is. Well, and I feel like these days, it doesn't seem that common to be like, I'm just going to choose one murder.

Yeah, absolutely. But I think, you know, the Ed Gein case, they did the same thing. Yeah. They're like, why do we waste all the time with all that let's just do one it's gonna be enough yeah i don't know less than five months had passed since the since the spree killing yeah and the question for the jury to decide was not did charles do it the facts were clear he'd murdered this kid the 17 year old kid yeah along with a bunch of other people yeah i mean he wasn't on trial for those but yeah the question

was what was his mental state at the time against charlie's wishes the defense offered up the plea of not guilty by reason of insanity. Oh. Charlie hated this. He scoffed at it and he said, no one remembers a crazy man. Oh. Yeah. Wow. He loved that he was famous.

Yeah. So the defense pointed out Charlie's difficult childhood where he was teased and how he hadn't learned to properly handle his emotions as a result of that and they argued that the only way he knew how to channel that anger was through rage and violence the defense called three psychiatrists to testify on his behalf and they described him as someone suffering from a severe mental disease or illness that influenced his actions one went so far as to say people don't mean anything to him they are no more than a stick or a piece of wood to this boy wow in their closing argument the defense said this boy is a product of our society.

Our society that spawned this individual is looking for a scapegoat. They also urged the jury to really consider the risk of finding Charlie guilty, pointing out that if he went to prison, he could get out one day. And come and tack them? Yes. What? That's an insane thing to say. But the likelihood of him getting out if he was found insane would be slim, because no one on earth would ever say that an insane man was fixed and should be released back into society.

So they're threatening the jury yeah is that not the like the most ridiculous tactic i'm shocked that you're allowed to do that yeah in his rebuttal the prosecutor was like whoa whoa whoa let's get back to earth here let's get our feet on the ground good god can't you see what a hoax it is to persuade you into grasping at the straw of insanity and he ended by urging them to protect the community from the defendant the jury deliberated only a short time before finding charles starkweather guilty of first degree murder. Yeah.

And he was sentenced to death. The trial of Carol Fugate began four months after Starkweather was sentenced to death. Now this one fascinates me because on the one hand I'm like, okay, she was a child. Clearly this was an abusive relationship. And it was, the trial was almost identical to Charlie's. The same evidence, the same witnesses. But in contrast, the trial focused not on her mental state, but on her age and whether or not she was a willing participant in the crime spree. Charles Starkweather testified at trial.

Against her? Basically, yes. Okay. Yeah, it really was against her. Basically, he only testified to clarify the statements that he made after his arrest, where he was like, no, she wasn't involved. And then, wait, yes, she was. And he said the true story is that he lied to protect her when he was first arrested

and that she was involved in every step of it she was a willing participant and the the defense was like no this is a young girl she was impressionable there was this older boy who was giving her attention and then you know what was she supposed to do not go go along with it? He just murdered her family. But she was present when her family was murdered. And then she spent all of those days with him there at the house with people coming to visit. The police came. See, but I don't.

I wonder. I wonder about how scared she was. And if she really believed that even if she told the police that maybe he'd shoot the police and, you know, I don't know. So the prosecution ended by saying even 14-year-old girls must recognize they cannot go on eight-day murder sprees. What do you think they found? What do you think the jury found? I think they found her guilty. Yeah, she was found guilty.

And the judge said, before he sentenced her, he said that he completely believed she was a willing participant maybe not to the degree that she was getting enjoyment out of murdering people but that she had plenty of opportunity to get away yeah and chose not to okay she was sentenced to life in prison she served 17 and a half years before being paroled. Whoa. Yes. Whoa. Yeah.

So she was paroled, I think, like in 1976. So she was a fairly young woman when she got out. Yeah, she got married and had a whole life after her release. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. She changed her name, moved to, I can't, I didn't write, hold on, let me look up. I didn't write down name, moved to, I can't, I didn't write, hold on, let me look up. I didn't write down where she, where she moved to. Yeah, she moved to Michigan.

She changed her name and started a whole new life. She worked as a janitor for years at a hospital in Michigan. Wow. Yeah. What are your thoughts? I think that it's probably kind of a case of Stockholm syndrome. That's kind of what I'm thinking too. I bet that she to a degree was a willing participant,

but I bet that it wasn't a conscious decision that she made. Yeah. And I bet that it was fear motivated to a degree. Yeah. decision that she made yeah and i bet there was fear motivated to agree yeah so i actually i think that she did need to serve some time for it but i think that it i'm not upset that she was paroled after 17 years i think it still allowed her to have a chance at a life doesn't it make you wonder what would happen if this case came to trial today yeah yeah so her husband was killed in a car accident um in august of 2013 she was seriously injured in the accident as well i believe that she is still alive today um but her husband was killed in that accident yeah charles Starkweather was put to death by electric chair on June 25th, 1959.

Wow. This case has, so I almost did this case for our Halloween episode because it has inspired a ton of stuff in pop culture. Let me give you a little get it to me a little sampling here so it has inspired the movies the sadist which came out in 1963 badlands which came out in 1973 california which came out in 1993 natural born killers which came out in 1994 starkweather which came out in 2004 um and this is not listed here, but this is the movie that I first heard of it from. And it's kind of a... Oh, here it is listed. The 1996 movie, The Frighteners by Peter...

It's a Peter Jackson movie, who's the guy that did the Lord of the Rings movies. Yeah, yeah. So it's a... So what is it, like four hours long? It's not. It's a horror movie, but it's kind of like a dark comedy at the same time. And there's a Starkweather-like character in it. Okay.

And so I almost did this case for our Halloween episode. novels and true retellings of it. And then also music. There's several bands that have had songs that mention this. There's been Bruce Springsteen's song Nebraska, which I had never heard before. I knew the song was about this case and I knew that it was a Bruce Springsteen song. The song is fucking terrible.

Is it? It's not good at all okay it's not i mean i can't imagine that it's one of his hits because there's no melody there's no chorus it's literally just a telling of this oh god i did not care for it one bit bruce just wanted a podcast that's right he decided make it a song so you know the Billy Joel song We Didn't Start the Fire where he mentions like all of the stuff through history Watergate Richard Nixon

so the Starkweather Homicide is a line oh really yes yeah oh yeah yeah okay so and that's just like the tip of the iceberg there's so much stuff that this story has inspired and that's just like the tip of the iceberg. There's so much stuff that this story has inspired. And that's the case of spree killer Charles Starkweather.

Okay, well, that was nuts. I'd never heard anything about that. Yeah. I loved it. So what do you think would have been the proper punishment, or if any, for Carol? Do you think that she? I think for her I would do more of like a juvenile detention thing. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. She was the youngest person in American history that was tried for first degree murder at the time she was 14 yeah i mean she went to trial she was so young yeah clearly this was an abusive relationship and i i just can't imagine that she would have gone and done any of this stuff on her own exactly i don't i don't believe at all that she would have gone and done any of it on her own. No. Yeah. Yeah.

Crazy one, right? Yeah, that was nuts. Yeah. Yikes. Oof. Oof, indeed. So we are pre-recording this episode. We're recording it a little bit early because... Tell the people what you're doing kristin

y'all i'm going on vacay oh i'm so jealous i'm so excited no it's been a long time since norman and i just did a vacation together yeah so we are going to do like our first truly lazy vacation that's awesome i'm so excited for you guys only 45 jealous thank you 55 super happy for you guys so this past weekend was the weekend before halloween so we went and did a haunted history tour here in our great city kansas city and it was not what i expected here's the here's the thing you were kind of disappointed i get great enjoyment when things turn out to be lame enough that they're super funny okay here's what i here's what my expectation was okay to feel some kind of fear over being in like a haunted place like we went and toured this old mansion

um that was built during the civil war that was supposed to be haunted it was actually built pre-civil war but whatever what i instead got was confederate propaganda this is the danger of being in missouri uh yeah i did not expect that at all yeah norman was boiling because norman's obviously a history buff and so the guy starts telling us these wild crazy tales about how bad the union was yeah this is literally what he said and i'm not going to go into all the propaganda that he spelled but this is how it started you know what they say whoever wins gets to write the history books. Well, I'm going to tell you some stuff that you won't find in those history books. I was like, oh, great.

This is going to be awesome. Yeah. In his defense, though, Confederate stuff is really hot right now. Yeah, so that part was gross. That part was gross and not at all what I was expecting out of our nice Sunday evening spooky tour. Well, it was pretty spooky. I mean, you hear a grown man spouting Confederate propaganda,

that scares the shit out of me. Yeah, and the only ghost experience we have is Norm claimed he may have been poked in the anus by a ghost. So here's the thing. The four of us were real not happy about the Confederate stuff. So I'm going to just say that we started off kind of right off the bat not taking it super seriously that is correct so let me tell you what they said so they told us oh take a lot of pictures because you know you're gonna see orbs and stuff so at one point brandy starts taking these pictures zach jumps into the picture then they told us to look out for cold spots so you know it's a it was a cold night yeah and they

opened up the door to a balcony let me tell you guys what brandy did brandy walks by the open door and goes oh my god i think i found a cold spot and of course the tour guide heard me say that. And he's like, what's that? What have you found? You know he thought you were drunk, right? I'm sure. He for sure thought the four of us were drunk. Oh, yeah.

Because, you know, there were other people who were taking this very seriously. They were very into it. And the four of us were not. And so he asked, you and Zach both had Chief's stuff on, and he asked if you guys had been tailgating, which is code for how much beer have you had to drink. No, we just didn't like your dumb tour. Yeah, and so then we toured the outside,

and that was when Norman said, oh my God, I just got probed by a ghost. Yeah, so there was this part on the property where they said it was the only place where they had had reported instances of a poltergeist, which is an angry ghost. And that's when Norm had the incident. Which I don't think we should be joking. I mean, Norm's anus hasn't been the same since. It's hard to come back from that. I mean, you say I ain't afraid of no ghost, but then you get probed by one and you do get afraid.

It's rough. So that was our experience. It's really something. It was something. I mean, it was entertaining. Oh, it was super entertaining. For example, I didn't know that the Confederacy was just a bunch of great guys. Oh, Lord.

Oh, goodness. Yeah. That was some new information for me i've never heard confederate propaganda quite like that before i hadn't either yeah here's the deal i was born and raised in kansas which has never been a slave state, Kristen. Yeah, I was born in Missouri, live in Missouri. It's just funny. Oh, I don't know if I should say this. Norman and I went to a Civil War museum a while back. And I was not a fan of it. Because, you know, you're in the museum and you're reading some of the plaques and you're like, anytime in a museum situation or in a conversation with

anyone, when they go down the road of trying to talk about the Civil War without mentioning slavery at all. Yeah. And being like, Oh, it was about states, right? It's like,

yeah. States rights to own slaves. Yeah. Anytime they try to like, not mention that. I'm like, I'm not sure that this information I'm getting here is quite on the up and up. And like, I'm sorry.

What kind of life are you living that you're not like slavery is bad yeah yeah if you're not of the thinking that slavery is bad then i can't be friends with you and i don't want you listening to my podcast i mean we we will take pretty much any listeners but i think that's where we drop the line right we don't we don't want people who are into slavery we don't people want people who are like making nipple belts those are our two nipple belts and then i also feel like ghosts who are pro bananas we don't need them listening either he just thought norman was super hot can relate right kristin can relate you should have seen what norm was wearing he was asking for the ghost chrome

so that was our weekend um so i would just like to say to our listeners who do think that slavery is bad, thanks for listening to us. Thanks for tuning in. God, I hope that's 100% of them. Oh, my gosh. Me, too. It's a scary time we're living in. It is.

But thanks for listening to us. And, you know, we're not always on task, but we try to have a good time. That is like the slogan of our lives. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like many of our teachers would have noted that about us. Oh, for sure. Not always on task.

Seems to have a good time. Possibly they're drunk. Might have been tailgating. Folks, if you haven't already, head on over to our social media. Join us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. And then, if you still have time, head on over to iTunes.

Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. We would love you forever if you do. And then, join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts for this

episode i got my info from the article how to not get away with murder by michael j mooney for d magazine my san antonio nbc dfw an episode of the podcast swindled and bbc.com and I got my info from Crime Library, Encyclopedia dot com, YOHistory dot org, and Murderpedia. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTC podcast dot com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go

read their stuff.