Let's Go To Court! - 46: The Great Brink’s Robbery & the Murder of Kelsey Smith

Episode Date: December 12, 2018

It was the late 1940s in Boston, Massachusetts, and a group of career criminals had a crazy idea. They wanted to rob the Brinks’ armored car depot. If they could pull it off, it would be the biggest robbery in United States history. For two years, they planned and plotted. They broke into the building to get a lay of the land. They stole the building’s lock cylinders, brought them to a locksmith, had keys made, and replaced the cylinders — all before the building reopened the next day. By the time they finally committed the robbery, they were like a well oiled machine. They were slick. They were smart. And they almost got away with it. Then Brandi tells a story that hits close to home. On June 2, 2007, 18-year-old Kelsey Smith went to Target to find an anniversary present for her boyfriend. The trip shouldn’t have taken long. When Kelsey didn’t return home right away, her family started to worry. They searched for her, hoping that maybe she’d had car trouble. But a few hours later, they discovered her car in the parking lot of a nearby mall. Their hearts sank. Her wallet, purse, and Target bags were in the vehicle — but Kelsey was nowhere to be found. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Brink’s Robbery” fbi.gov “The Great Brink’s Robbery of 1950: Not Quite the Perfect Crime,” New England Historical Society In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Kelsey Smith: Gone in an Instant” episode See No Evil “Edwin Hall Guilty in Kelsey Smith Killing” by Diane Carroll, Laura Bauer, and Joe Lambe, The Kansas City Star “Edwin Hall: I’m So, So Sorry” KMBC 9 News “Murder of Kelsey Smith” wikipedia.org

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about the Great Brinks Robbery. And I'll be talking about the murder of Kelsey Smith.

Oh! Okay. I've got an apology to make. Oh. Not really an apology, just maybe a clarification with a slight apology attached. Oh, I am intrigued. Okay, okay, so here we go. On a recent episode that you did, you did the Watts family murders.

And that case just wrapped up a second ago. And the ongoing joke we have on the podcast, anytime something has just wrapped up is we say, it's a fresh one. Yeah. We say that regardless of the severity of the crime. Absolutely. It's more of a poop joke than anything, really, if I'm going to define our comedy. Yeah.

Okay. So, for those who don't know, you usually write the Facebook post. Yeah. Say, you know, new episode, blah, blah, blah, blah. So for that post, you wrote, it's a fresh one. Yeah. Okay. So I copied and pasted that onto Twitter.

Right. And Norman called to me from his office. He was like, oh my God, this tweet. Oh. And I was like, what are you talking about? He thought we meant it's a fresh one as in the bodies oh god yeah no no no oh never i mean i'm hoping no one yeah would have thought that yeah yeesh horrifying yeah so anyway just to clarify when we say it's

a fresh one we're talking about the case yes yeah we're not talking yeah not the freshness of the body for sure okay anyway moving on anyway okay hang on i gotta drink some hot cocoa excellent this is delicious hot cocoa thank you i um how do i have more beverages than you right now? You know, maybe I designed it this way to make you feel like a fool. In my defense, I came with one beverage. And since I've been here, you have provided me with two more beverages. I was born this way, baby. Sherry Pitts is my mother.

If someone comes into my home home they're getting a damn beverage that's right try and say no i dare you yeah really you can't resist do you remember the time that zach was over at my parents house and he yeah i did just get by with no beverage i'm fine right now thanks wrong answer wrong answer wrong. She will hold your legs up and make you do a keg stand. Oh, man. She didn't let it go until he had a beverage in his hand. Forced it down. Ooh.

Okay, do you know about this keg? I know a little bit, not much. Okay. That's because you love the FBI.gov. I should do like a little thing. I do have like a cough thing again. I swear I got better since the last time I gave that. Okay, Peanut, can you?

Peanut. Peanut, we're recording an award-winning podcast. We're, oh. It seemed like she respected that, didn't it? Okay, well, I think she's scared off the murderer. Clearly, she's protected us. I apologize if I'm coughing. I have another little thing.

I realize I just gave this disclaimer a couple of episodes ago i have gotten better since then but apparently had the immune system of a tiny child and picked another bug up you know i think what it is is anytime you yawn i sneeze oh god i would just straight up vomit i'm sorry the marshmallow stuck to my... This is going to be a terrible episode to edit. It was the late 1940s. Excellent.

In Boston, Massachusetts. Love it. And a group of career criminals were preparing for the crime of a lifetime. Joseph Big Joe McGinnis had a crazy idea. He wanted to rob the Brinks Armored Car Depot. If he could pull it off, it would be the biggest robbery in United States history. So he assembled a team. He got Joseph Spex O'Keefe, Anthony Pino, Stanley, Gus, Gusiora, and a bunch of other guys with a bunch of other nicknames. Oh my God. These, I mean, they were dedicated to their craft.

They studied the building, which is now located at 600 Commercial Street in Boston, Massachusetts, if you want to Google it. Evidently not. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I do want to Google it. What's the address? I was so zoned in. I was thinking of those nicknames.

You were looking at me so hard. I was like, all right. Okay. 600 Commercial Street, Boston, Massachusetts. Yes. I see it's in the West End. What? I don't know.

That's what it says. Excellent. This is just a big red building. Really added something, didn't it? Yes. So they did their homework. One of them would just stare at the building for hours, watching when the lights would go on and off.

Before the actual robbery, they broke in, just to get a lay of the land. Since it was the Brinks building, there was a ton of security. They had to get through all these different locked doors to get to the money. And the guys knew they didn't want to waste a ton of security. They had to get through all these different locked doors to get to the money. And the guys knew they didn't want to waste a ton of time on the day of the robbery trying to pick like every single lock. Oh yeah. And plus what if they couldn't like get every single lock? You know then it would all be for nothing. So they came up with this plan. The guys broke into the

building after hours and they removed the lock cylinders from all of the important doors holy crap that's so smart they took them to a locksmith at like midnight and said hey make us keys that will fit into all of these locks then they went back into the building put all the lock cylinders back into place and then left all before the building opened up again. What kind of midnight locksmith was this? What did he think he was doing? I think he thought, these are big time Boston criminals. I'm going to do whatever they want.

Probably true. Yeah. Probably true. Or maybe this was just part of his thing. He worked with them. Uh-huh. But yeah, I don't think he was like, was just part of his thing. He worked with them. Uh huh. But yeah, I don't think he was like, oh, these are completely innocent guys coming to me at midnight. Super nice guys.

Uh huh. Coming to me at midnight looking to have some keys made. So two years go by. They've studied the building. They know the employees schedules. They know where the money is kept and they have actual keys to the building. That's a shit ton of prep time. Well, and I didn't even write down everything they did to prep.

Like, they also stole blueprints to the building, but kind of figured out, oh, this isn't as helpful as we thought. So, like, you know, two years, you cover a lot of ground. You're not going to use everything you know. They waited for the absolute right time. In fact, six they said okay tonight's the night but then at the last minute they'd get there it was too crowded or things just didn't look right and they'd all go back home finally a little before 7 30 p.m on on January 17, 1950, the time had come. By this point in the evening, Brinks was closed, and there were just five employees in the building. They were all on the second floor behind, I couldn't get an exact number, but it was probably four locked doors.

Wow. So the employees were all doing their nightly routine. They were taking all the money that they'd gotten that day and storing it away. And that's when the group of masked men burst in. Oh, my gosh. The men were all wearing peacoats and gloves and chauffeur's hats, and they had on Halloween masks. Okay. On the FBI website, which is where I got most of this info, Okay. On the FBI website, which is where I got most of this info, they have a picture of one of the masks. Okay, 1940s Halloween mask.

Terrifying! Yes! Okay, the one they showed was like if Elvis was a drag queen. Like, very overdone eyebrows that are very much the style right now. Yeah. Smoky eyes. If you want to... Can I see this?

Yeah. Okay. Great Brinks robbery FBI is what I'm Googling. Let's see if we got this. Okay. Oh, God. Yeah. Do the image search.

It's the third image. It is creepy as hell. Oh, don't care for that at all. Right? What is that? I don't even know what that's supposed to be, but it's terrifying. So they all wore this mask? I don't know.

They have the same mask on? It said they all had Halloween masks. I don't know that they all had the same one. Oh, it's Captain Marvel. Who the fuck's Captain Marvel? You're asking the wrong person. I don't know either. There are a lot of people who are screaming at their podcast right now.

Sorry. So they had guns. So, of course, they ordered the employees to lie down on the floor. The men put tape over their mouths and tied their hands behind their backs. Then the guys just started grabbing cash. Bags and bags and bags of cash. The guys worked like a well-oiled machine. They didn't really talk to each other. Everyone seemed to have their role. And their shoes made almost no noise. They were like silent, creepy robbers. What? Well well they have special shoes for this yeah how yeah a few minutes into the robbery

a buzzer went off everyone stopped that was not part of the plan yeah something they anticipated one of the men took the tape off of one of the employees mouths and said hey what does the buzz mean what's going on? And the employee was like, Hey, it just means that someone wants to get into the vault area. That's all it means. So the robbers pretty soon figured out,

okay, it's the garage attendant. He wants to come in for some reason. Obviously we have to capture this guy. We have to tie him up too. Oh my gosh. So two of the guys go to grab him but as they got close the garage attendant just kind of wandered off what he didn't seem to realize what was going on oh my god he had no idea he was interrupting a robbery

you know evidently he wanted to get back to that area he buzz buzzed, and when no one answered, he didn't think anything of it, so he just walked away. What? So the men continue with the robbery. And oh, what a robbery it was. They cleaned up. They got into their getaway car with bags and bags of cash, checks, and money orders. In total, they stole about $1.2 million in cash and $1.5 million in checks, money orders, and other securities. Wow. What are other securities? Don't know. Don't know.

Adjusted for inflation. Oh, oh. Here we go. You ready? You didn't let me down. That's about $12 million in cash and $16 million in all the other stuff for a grand total of $28 million. Thank you for adding 12 and 16 for me. These guys were good. They were in and out of there in like half an hour. As soon as they were finished, they all took relatively small cuts of it.

And then they agreed that they wouldn't touch the rest of it for six years. Wow. So then it wouldn't be in circulation? It's even smarter than that. In six years, the statute of limitations would expire and they'd be home free. Holy shit. All they had to do was not get caught. For six years.

For six years. Oh my gosh. So they're like, ready, break. Everyone go establish your alibis. Meanwhile, back at Brinks, one of the employees called the police. And the police showed up and immediately called the FBI. But this was a really tough case. Investigators interviewed the employees, and they were like,

okay, how many men were there? And the employees guessed between five and seven. They weren't really sure. Because, you know, they've been all like face down on the ground and everyone looked roughly the same it was kind of hard to know oh yeah what were they wearing nothing special yeah what did they look like we don't know yeah what did they say what did their voices sound like? We have no idea. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. Yeah, they have nothing to go on. They don't have anything. So the FBI is like, uh, shit. Yeah. They start looking at the crime scene. They found a roll of Sears brand waterproof adhesive tape, which one of the robbers used on the employees mouths i'm looking at the picture of it right now i bet you are yeah the next picture under the creepy mask they found some rope that had been used to tie up the employees

they found a chauffeur's hat which must have fallen off of one of the robbers uh probably goes without saying none of this was super helpful no but they did discover that the robbers. Probably goes without saying, none of this was super helpful. No. But they did discover that the robbers had stolen four revolvers from Brinks. Hmm. And the FBI was like, okay, well, that's something.

Yeah. They took down the serial numbers and they were like, okay, so we've got this. At the same time, they start questioning everyone. They talk to people who live in the nearby area, which by the way, was a shit ton of people. And they did learn something valuable from those interviews. They learned that around the time of the robbery, there was a 1949 green

Ford stake body truck parked near Brinks. Excellent. What's a stake body truck, Kristen? I had to Google it more than once because it didn't stick in my mind. So it's I don't even know how you describe it. It's kind of like a pickup truck, except it's

not. It's like it's got these Should I just Google it? Google it. Yeah. It's like it's not. It's like, it's got these. Should I just Google it? Google it, yeah. It's like, it's not an enclosure on the back, but you can. Oh, is it like the wood slats on the back? Kind of, kind of. Yeah, go ahead and Google it, because I'm sure you'll do a better job describing it. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got it. Can you describe it? Yeah, it's like a supply truck. Yeah, okay, there you go. There you go. Yeah, okay, there you go. Yeah, like I imagine crates of fruit being shipped on it. Or big bags of cash.

Absolutely. Let's say like the big canvas bags with dollar signs on the outside of them. So the investigators were like, well, that makes sense. There were a lot of guys and a lot of bags. Yeah. That definitely could have been the getaway vehicle then they're like well you know this was clearly done by someone who knows this building yeah they got they got through three maybe four locked doors they knew exactly where to go they didn't waste any time at all maybe it was a Brinks employee. Yeah, maybe. Maybe.

Or maybe it's someone who planned ahead for two years. That was like the last thing on their minds. So they're thinking it's a Brinks employee. They're thinking it's a former employee. Maybe it's someone who just works in the building. Maybe it's a messenger. Maybe it's some sketchy dude who's been dropping by saying, oh, I'm a salesman and I want to sell you this.

But really, he's just casing. Yeah. Or here's another theory. Maybe this was carried out by a criminal organization. Maybe it's Bob Moss. The mob boss. Maybe. That's right.

That remains the hardest time I've ever laughed on this podcast. If you guys don't know what we're talking about, this one hilarious time Brandi meant to say Mob Boss. But I was really excited. You were so excited. I'd totally gone like off script i was just like rattling stuff off the top of my head i was feeling very confident so confident that i called someone a bob moss instead of a mob boss so they're thinking it's bob moss the mob boss and

if it is bob moss who's to say it's a local Bob Moss, it could be a Bob Moss from anywhere. Oh, my gosh. The Bob Moss possibilities are endless. The Moss abilities. So there's this massive manhunt for information. The FBI is interviewing a ton of people. They're cracking down on all these known criminals.

Meanwhile, the public is fascinated. Everyone had their theory on who could have done this. And they didn't keep it to themselves. Eventually, Brinks offered a $100,000 reward for information that could lead to the capture of the robbers. So the FBI got flooded with tips. One person who lived in California called in and was like, hey, hey, I've got a thought. What if they buried it in the Atlantic Ocean?

In the ocean, huh? Yes. Oh, and this was just like a random thought or they had reason to think this might be the case? Probably random. Thank you for that helpful tip, sir. Then a bunch of ex-cons came forward. They were like, hey, yeah, we know some guys who talked about robbing Brinks. But none of the leads went anywhere.

Then on February 5th, just a few weeks after the crime, a group of boys who were playing at the edge of the Mystic River in Somerville, Massachusetts, discovered two guns in the sand. Do they match the serial numbers? One was a rusty, old

revolver. Peanut, could you not lick your butthole aggressively? That's like asking her not to breathe, Kristen. It's very distracting when she does that. By the way, are you freezing? I'm all right.

I'm kind of cold. Well, turn it up. Crank it up. Pump up the jam. Pump it up. Pump up the jam. Pump it up. Oh, the jam. Pump it up. Pump up the jam. Pump it up. Oh, it's only 69.

69. They discovered two guns in the sand. One was a rusty old revolver, and the other was one of the four revolvers that was stolen in the Brinks robbery. Immediately, investigators descended on the area and they're like we would like to find out more please yes but they couldn't yeah what else could they find out it's just well yeah here's one of the guns shit gosh wait who what about the other gun who was it registered to did they go talk to that guy? I'm sure they tried to figure out who it was registered to.

Oh, you're sure, Kristen? Why wouldn't you check that? A month goes by. They've got this gun, but no one to tie it to. And that's when they get word that pieces of a 1949 green ford stakeback truck have been found in a dump in stoughton massachusetts how far is stoughton from boston i want to say like half an hour all right i might be making that up and i hope to god i'm pronouncing stoughton correctly there's probably yeah probably not they got there and they're like,

holy shit, this is it. This is the truck. Someone had used a torch to cut the truck into parts. They'd used a sledgehammer on it. They destroyed this truck. And on top of all that, every piece of that truck was in bags.

What? So that when you were just walking by, you wouldn't immediately go, oh, that's a piece of a green truck. Holy shit. The FBI was like, damn. That's good.

Yeah, these robbers did everything they could to conceal this truck. Clearly, the only reason they didn't bury these parts was because it's freaking Boston. It's the wintertime. The ground is frozen solid.

They did everything that they could to cover up these things. So they're like, all right, we've got something here. They look into the truck. They're like, surely we can trace this truck back to somebody. And they could. Is Norm yelling at the top of his lungs on his stream? Is his door wide open?

I don't know. It's so loud. I'm going to go close the door. How rude. Does he not know that we're making an amazing podcast down here? It's like he doesn't even know how we are benefiting him right now. That's right. The money we make off of this podcast. I can't even finish that sentence.

His door wasn't even like I assumed it would be wide open. No. Like I came up assumed it would be wide open. No. Like I, I came up there and I shut three inches. So they want to trace that truck back to somebody and sure enough, they can. They traced it back to a Ford dealer who owned a shop near Fenway Park. He'd reported it stolen in 1949, and the thieves had never been caught. Of course not.

Mm-hmm. Oh, my gosh. So they're getting nowhere. The FBI is like, damn it, all to hell. They're like, okay, the truck is no good. But what about these bags that we found it in? These are kind of weird bags. They're made of fiber. Maybe we can trace these things back to someone so they do a deep dive into the bags which i realize sounds like

they dove into headfirst into the bags and they were like this doesn't go in there they discover that they were shipping bags they'd been used to ship beef bones from South America to a gelatin manufacturing company in Massachusetts. Excellent. You'd think so, because that sounds weirdly specific. But they couldn't figure out who, if anyone, at that company was tied to the robbery. So that went nowhere.

There's no like, oh, we've been saving all our bags for Stan. He collects them at the end of the month. Unfortunately, no. Man. I know. Hmm. But they didn't give up hope. The fact that they found the truck in Stoughton had to mean something.

By this point, they had some suspects in mind, and two of them, Joseph O'Keefe and Stanley Gus Gussiora, lived in Stoughton. So officers questioned them again and searched their homes again, but they couldn't find anything. Nothing. So that super sucked. Then finally, investigators caught a break. They learned that a not-so-wealthy guy in New Jersey

was all of a sudden rolling in cash. He was buying new cars. He was going out to clubs. He was making it rain. The FBI was like, excellent. He was going out to clubs. He was making it rain. The FBI was like, excellent. We found one of our guys. They looked into where the man was on January 17th, 1950. And it wasn't him.

What? Yeah. Where was he? Doing something legit. He had a good alibi. Meanwhile, all the local gangs and Bob Mosses are getting kind of miffed because the FBI is sniffing all over them, and they're like, you guys, we've done so many bad things.

But not this bad thing. That's exactly right. Yes. Like, leave us alone. Let us do our other shit. So one longtime criminal told the fbi if i knew who pulled the job i wouldn't be talking to you right now because i'd be too busy trying to find a way to lay my hands on some of the loot that's true yeah i mean yeah the equivalent of 28 million dollars yeah yeah

petty criminals tried to use the robbery to their advantage anytime someone was about to be arrested they'd be like wait i can tell you who robbed brinks but they never nobody ever knew no wow then in april of 1950 they'll just do anything. That's the thing about crooks. In April of 1950, the FBI got a tip. It was about one of the guys in Stoughton. Someone called in and said, hey, you know that Joseph O'Keefe guy? He for sure did it. And he's hiding the money at his relative's house.

The FBI is pumped. They get a warrant. They go to the house. And they did find some hidden money. But it was like a few hundred dollars. And none of it could be traced back to Brinks. A few more months go by. By this point, people have started calling it the perfect crime.

No one thought these guys were going to get caught then suddenly joseph o'keefe and stanley gussiora leave boston they claimed they were going to visit stanley's brother's grave in missouri but a few days later on june 12th it's a good day. Brandy and Norman's birthday. It's a good day. Have I told you when Norman and I first started dating, he thought I had the most amazing memory ever because I committed his birthday to memory right away. It was very easy. So on June 12th, the holiest of days, they were arrested in Pennsylvania.

They had all kinds of loot from burglaries that had just taken place all over Pennsylvania, but none of it was from Brinks. Joseph was sentenced to three years. Stanley was sentenced to five to 20 years. Then, weird stuff started happening. What kind of weird stuff? I'm about to tell you. There were rumors that all of these Boston criminals

were talking about setting up a legal defense fund for Joseph O'Keefe. But why would they be so generous? Yeah! The FBI started getting excited. They didn't have any real evidence, but they knew that Joseph O'Keefe did this. He was

involved somehow in this crime. And if all these guys were raising money for him, maybe it was because they owed him something and they wanted him to stay quiet. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

The FBI thought, this is awesome, because this money isn't coming through very quickly, and meanwhile, Joseph is sitting in jail, and he is mad as hell. Maybe he'll turn on the rest of the crew. The FBI collected the names of these guys who were supposedly contributing to this legal defense fund. One was Henry Baker. Another was Adolph Jazz Moffey. Another was Anthony Pino. And then there was Anthony's brother-in-law, Vincent Costa. If my name was Adolph, I'd probably go by Jazz, too.

Okay. This is how ridiculous and dumb i am the first time i saw this i was like oh my god who names their kid adolf are you kidding me and it like took me too long he was already named adolf before it became famous it took me a long time to realize like oh given the time period it wasn't that he had terrible parents. Yeah. I mean, if he became a career criminal, he probably didn't have great parents. He probably didn't have great ones. But not like crazy Nazi parents.

Okay. Hard to say. A lot of Nazis out there, turns out. That's right. All of them were career criminals. All of them were out of prison at the time of the robbery. And all of their alibis were either shitty or just didn't hold up to really close scrutiny. At this point, the investigation had been going on for three years.

And for some reason, the FBI felt real good about it. They took what they had to a grand jury what what did they have uh you just heard it like a really good gut feeling that's exactly what the grand jury wants to see conviction um i think they maybe had a vision board with all these guys' faces on it. But the grand jury was like, no. Yeah, there's no evidence here, folks. Yeah, you have no witnesses. You don't have any eyewitnesses because none of the, you know, all the robbers were disguised.

So no, we're definitely not indicting anyone. Nice try. Yeah. Come again. So Joseph and Stanley are in prison. And Anthony pino is having some legal troubles too he was born in italy and came to the u.s as a child and because of his criminal record the government was constantly threatening to deport him his battle with immigration is kind of long so yada yada yada after the federal grand jury thing the government was pissed it looks like there is pissed it looks like they'll try to deport him again but anthony

is like oh hell no i've fought you before i will fight you again he ends up surrendering himself but he's like i'm gonna fight this two years go by his deportation case goes all the way to the supreme court and the supreme court sided with anthony pino yeah this guy who had clearly been part of this they were like yeah you, fair is fair. You guys are trying to deport him over this old 1948 larceny charge. That's not enough. Pino wins.

Wow. What about Grigio? How'd Grigio become? You're so proud of that show. Meanwhile, his buddy Joseph O'Keefe is not having a good time. Yeah. He gets out of one prison and immediately he's on trial for burglary and larceny

in another county in Pennsylvania. Did it sound like I was gurgling? I don't know. It sounded like burglary got caught in the throat. For sure. So this part is also long. So yada, yada, yada. He gets out on bond, goes to Boston, and the FBI is being all sneaky sneaks.

They watch him while he's in Boston, and they notice that he is mad, mad, mad. And he's going around to all these guys who they are sure committed the Brinks robbery. And he's clearly trying to hit them up for money for his defense fund. The trial happens. He's found guilty. He appeals. He's released on bond. He goes back to Boston.

Meanwhile, another one of the robbers gets into legal trouble. another one of the robbers gets into legal trouble adolf jazz moth got convicted of tax evasion what so now he's in prison but again joseph o'keefe he's out of prison and he is super pissed off and everyone knows he's about to go off the rumor was that he was really angry at adolf hitler and mafia and angry at another guy from the group named henry baker so henry and his wife are like well this is kind of scary um everyone we're going on vacation please no one ask where we're going. So Joseph is going around to all the other members of the group, and he clearly wants money, and the FBI is like, excellent, get angrier.

We love it when you're angry. Because the statute of limitations is a ticking. Then, in May of 1954, Joseph had a bit of a breakdown. He took one of the dudes, Vincent Costa, to a hotel room and he held him for ransom. He held Vincent for two days. Oh my gosh! Afterward, the FBI interviewed all of them. But everyone was like, what? Ransom? In a hotel room?

No, that never happened. You must be thinking of someone else. Everyone is fine in our grimy, crimey underworld. Wow. Thank you. But the FBI was like, we're still watching you. These people are super sweaty. Super sweaty.

Then, on June 5th, 1954 someone tried to shoot Joseph O'Keefe. June 5th, Zach's birthday. Another amazing day. Isn't he older than you? He's older than you, right? Yeah.

God damn it. He's seven whole days older than me, Kristen older that's such bullshit uh let's see someone shot what's his face someone tried to shoot tried to shoot sorry joseph o'keefe but joseph was like hey it's zach's birthday please don't shoot and then like the bullet just whizzed by like like uh matrix style that's right in honor of zach's birthday uh side note i've never actually seen the matrix what you haven't either no i was forced to watch it what yes You've seen it? Unfortunately. And this is the one time when I'm not lying about a movie that I have seen. Wow, I've never seen it.

Okay. I had a boyfriend, and you know the boyfriend, who was obsessed with his movie collection. And God, we could not have had more different taste in movies. I watched a lot of movies I hated in that relationship. Matrix being one of them. Excellent. Also Lord of the Rings.

Never seen Lord of the Rings. Why are you squinty eyed at me? I've never seen it. I'm so. Yeah, I didn't waste those four hours of my life oh oh you wish four hours i had to watch the director's cut which i wasn't aware that a director was involved in a movie that that was that long to begin with oh you seem pretty bitter about it still this had to have happened years ago you know it did you know it happened like a million years ago oh god terrible you know sometimes you know you're

incompatible just based on movies yeah zach has never made me watch Lord of the Rings. What has he made you watch? I'm sure there's been something dumb that he's made me watch and that I was mad about, but I can't think of anything. Well, he made you watch Marley and Me, which made you cry. Well, he did make me watch that, but the one that really he forced me to watch that really made me cry was A Dog's Purpose. You're right. Really pissed me off. I'm still mad about that one norman is a big fan of romantic comedies so is zach i think that's so weird yeah yeah loves the rom-com how did you find out he was into rom-coms i think it was when i was like hey let's watch the super bowl and he was like

that's what they call a dead giveaway that's a true story like legit i was like let's switch over to like hadn't gotten to a super bowl party or anything yeah and i was like let's switch over to the, like, hadn't gone to a Super Bowl party or anything. And I was like, let's switch over to the Super Bowl. And he's like, New York's the wedding planner. I love this. Okay, my true story is this was back when we were living in North Carolina. We hadn't been living together for very long at all. Yeah. And, you know, we just had, like, a basic cable package.

Yeah. And we were in the living room. And I think it was definitely a Katherine He the living room and I think it was definitely a Katherine Heigl movie. I think it was 27 Dresses came on. It's a good one. And he saw that and he goes, oh, you'll probably want to watch this

and like rolled his eyes big time. And the thing is, I'm not super into romantic comedies. So I'm just kind of like, I was kind of watching, but I didn't really care. I ended up leaving the room at one point. kept watching it kept watching yeah he was caught and finally he admitted loves a rom-com oh also meryl street but who doesn't so try not to back to the crime yes please two days later someone oh wait

oh i was about to jump way too far back it up hold on reverse back back back it up that's enough that's your backup noise. Then, on June... Wait, no, I did write this down. Oh, wait, here's the next part. So, Zach's birthday. Yeah. Someone tries... He dodges a bullet like Neo.

Yeah. Yeah. He was sitting in his car, and someone pulled up and sprayed the car with bullets. But they didn't kill him. What? Then, nine days later, Joseph and Henry Baker were together, and Henry shot at Joseph several times, but somehow still didn't kill him. What? This guy's bulletproof? Evidently, Joseph was still alive.

yeah two days later someone or maybe multiple someones tried to kill joseph again what in total 30 bullets were fired he did get hit in the chest and the wrist but But he lived? He survived. What the fuck is up with this guy? Yeah, this guy, there's something going on. The next day, the police arrested Elmer Trigger Burke, who, believe it or not, made his living as a hitman. I'm shocked you have a nickname like Trigger. That's right. I thought he was a part-time horse. They were pretty sure he'd been hired to kill joseph just thinking about gelatin factories um after all that joseph was like yo i'd better lay low for a while everyone wants me dead so he did lay low until he was arrested in august he was carrying a gun which i do not blame him but it was a

violation of his probation yeah violation of his probation or violation of... Yeah, whoops. Meanwhile, it's a shit show for the rest of the gang. One dude dies of natural causes. Another dude goes to prison, then gets out. Then Adolf got out of prison. Then that trigger guy who tried to kill Joseph O'Keefe busted out of prison. It's a damn mess. The FBI is like, come on. We've been waiting for some of these marked bills to circulate.

They haven't. We've been waiting for these guys to turn on each other. They haven't. But they held out hope because Joseph O'Keefe was in a unique situation. He was angry and his own gang had tried to kill him three Yeah. Three times. Yeah. He wrote angry letters to all of them. He spent a lot of time alone just stewing over the fact that he was totally screwed. He was either going to live a long life in prison or he'd get out of prison

and one of them would murder him. The rest of them would get all the money and he'd be dead. He thought and thought and thought. The guys would sometimes answer his letters, but they were clearly just putting him off. They weren't going to give him any money. They felt pretty secure.

Surely Joseph wouldn't turn on them. If he did, he'd be telling on himself. That would be stupid. Then, on January 6, 1956, just a few days before the statute of limitations would run out, Joseph O'Keefe spilled his guts. What? Yeah.

His interview with the FBI agents lasted several days. Everything he said checked out. It either verified what they already knew or filled in gaps. So he tells them about the planning. He tells them who did what. He tells them about all the times that they thought they were going to rob the place, but then backed out at the last minute because conditions weren't right. And then he just started complaining. He was like, you know something? I did not surround myself with very hard workers in this robbery. Four of the dudes weren't even in the building

at the time of the robbery. And why did those jackasses have to disassemble the getaway car so close to my house? Very rude. And you know the worst part? I didn't even get any money. That's why I've been going around to all these guys. You guys were looking at me so hard from the beginning that I asked freaking Adolph Maffie if he'd hang on to my $100,000 until I could safely get a hold of it. And when I was ready for it, he was like, oh, that money got stolen. Oh my gosh. And the stuff that wasn't stolen, I just gave that to your defense fund, so I don't have any more money for you. So Joseph

never believed that. Yeah. And it doesn't seem like anyone else in this robbery group believed it either. I think they were kind of mad at Adolph, too. Yeah. Then, just five days before the statute of limitations was set to run out,

authorities charged 11 men with conspiracy to commit theft of government property, bank robbery, assault on the Brinks employees, and conspiracy to conceal money, and a few other charges. They arrested six of the Brinks employees, and conspiracy to conceal money, and a few other charges. They arrested six of the men that day.

That left five, but O'Keefe was obviously in jail already, and so was Gosiura, and one of the dudes was dead. That left two guys, and they were long gone. Wow. The FBI put them on their top 10 most wanted list, which I wonder when they started that. Yeah. And in May of that year,

they found them hiding out in an apartment in Dorchester, Massachusetts. The FBI handed all the information they had over to the district attorney of Suffolk County. And this time the grand jury was like, oh, yeah, you've got some shit County. And this time the grand jury was like, oh yeah, you've got some shit on these guys this time. So they returned indictments and Joseph O'Keefe was the star witness. Authorities were thrilled.

There was just one thing that kind of sucked. All the money was missing. Yeah. Because Joseph had turned on everybody, but he was the one guy who didn't have any money. He had no idea where all this money was. And obviously none of the other guys were talking. Yeah.

So the FBI was like, great. So this means we're just missing $2.7 million. Mm-hmm. This means we're just missing $2.7 million. Mm-hmm. But then at about 7.30 p.m. on June 3rd, 1956, in Baltimore, Maryland, this guy who was running an amusement arcade came up to a police officer.

He was like, hey, I think someone tried to give me a counterfeit $10 bill. And I know where the guy is. He's at a bar down the road. So the officer goes with the guy, and they look at the bill, and it's kind of gross looking. It's a Federal Reserve note. So the officer spots the guy, starts talking to him. And as they're talking, the dude tried to do some, like,

weird sleight of handwork under his raincoat. But these two other officers who were nearby were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. What just happened? So one of the guys grabs the guy by the hand and a huge wad of money falls out. They were like, OK, we're taking you in. And the guy's like, oh, no, you don't understand. I just found that money. Oh, okay, sure. And I'm going to be honest.

I do have more of it at my hotel room, and I just found that, too. Uh-huh. I found it when I was working on the foundation of a house. It was just sitting there in a plastic bag. Clearly, I'm not a bad guy. I just am a guy who found a bag of weird money what so a secret service agent comes in he examines the bill and he's like actually this isn't fake it's real investigators knew some of the serial numbers for the money that had been at brinks

so they checked out this guy's wad of cash, and sure enough, it matched up. They start leaning on the guy, and they're like, how about you tell us the real story here? So he finally tells them something new. He says, okay, I didn't find it in the foundation of a house. I work back in Boston,

and I used to share an office with this guy, Fat John. Fat John? Why does Adolph get to be Jazz, but someone else gets to be Fat John? Like he'd be Big Boned John. So Fluffy John one day ripped a panel off the wall and showed me all this money. And he said, hey, this money is good, but you can't spend it in Boston. So that's why I'm here, spending the money in Baltimore.

He had been in Baltimore for one day. Holy shit! Police in Boston went to Fat John's office, and sure enough, there was a wall panel that you could remove. And it contained $57,000. My gosh! $51,000 of it was for sure part of the Brinks robbery. Yeah. So they arrested Fat John and his business partner and the guy who went to Baltimore.

They all pled guilty. Fat John got two years. The other two got one year apiece. That still left a ton of money in hiding. But the Robbie gang was worried. They were like, are our prints on the money that was found? Can it be traced back to us? We want to fight our cases, but this could really hurt us.

Then Stanley Gussiura suddenly died. He was being transferred to stand trial, and he was dizzy, slipped, hit his head, and just died. What? Yep. This was huge because Joseph O'Keefe really liked Stanley. They were friends. He thought Stanley was a stand-up dude. And really, the only reason he'd been quiet for so long

was because he didn't want to turn on Stanley. But what Stanley did, he was like, okay, that was kind of the one reason I was holding out. Wow. Gonna go balls to the walls. He said, you know what? Let's go to court. Oh, I totally missed it.

I totally missed it. Joseph had already pled guilty, so that just left eight men. Their trial began on August 6th, 1956. The defense tried to file a bunch of motions delaying the trial, but the judge was like, no. Jury selection was ridiculous. The defense used 262 preemptory challenges, so they eliminated more than 1,000 people.

Finally, after three weeks, the prosecution and defense agreed on a 14-member jury. More than 100 witnesses testified at trial. But the most important, of course, was Joseph O'Keefe. He told the jury the whole damn story. The jury deliberated for three and a half hours. They found all eight of the men guilty. Wow, that's not a very long deliberation.

I think it was pretty for sure. That's not a very long deliberation. I think it was pretty for sure. The judge sentenced seven of the men to life in prison for robbery, two years for conspiracy to steal, and sentences ranging from eight to ten years for breaking and entering. Then came Joseph Big Joe McGinnis. So Joseph said that Big Joe was the one who came up with the idea, but he wasn't actually. Sorry, are Fat Joe and Big Joe different? Oh, Fat John and Big Joe.

Got it. I don't know how you're getting so confused. We're dealing with about a thousand different men here, and they've got nicknames on top of their actual names. Oh my gosh. Okay. All right. We're at Big Joe's trial?

Yes. Okay. All right. We got, we're at Big Joe's trial. Yes. Okay, got it. Joseph had said that Big Joe was the one who came up with the idea, but he wasn't actually there the night of the robbery. So he got a slightly

different sentence. Uh-huh. He got a life sentence for being an accessory plus two years and two and a half years and eight to ten. So a whole bunch.

Yeah. But just a little different. The eight dudes were pissed. Yeah, I bet. They did not want to go away for life, especially when they had been like this close. Five days or whatever. Yeah, they were so close to getting away with it.

Man. So they appealed. And their appeal went all the way to the Massachusetts Supreme Court. And the Supreme Court was like, nah, you guys, we're turning down your appeal. And the guys were like, no big deal. That's fine. We don't even care. Because now we're going to go all the way to the United States Supreme Court.

Do you think people hate it when we do this i think it's like 50 50 yeah i don't really care oh i love it oh damn i love it i do too i think it's really fun yeah so i'm sorry i don't think she's sorry folks i'm looking at her right i'm sorry hashtag sorry not sorry okay demi so the supreme court was like, no, we're busy. We won't hear your case. Goodbye. So to sum up, of the $2.7 million that was stolen, police only ever recovered about like $51,000 of it.

Oh my gosh. And that's the story of the almost perfect robbery wow wasn't that nuts that's nuts they should have just given that guy some damn money no kidding but the other thing i've been obsessing about is like what happened to all that money where's the money i like to think that all the wives were like just rolling in cash i hope so but surely that would have been obvious right yeah i don't know that's i'm so i'm so curious crazy yeah i want to know where the money went it's a lot of money maybe it's all in a foundation of a house or maybe it's in the Atlantic Ocean. Or maybe somebody started a foundation with it.

It's all going toward a good cause. How amazing would that be? They're like, well, we're just trying to cure cancer here. That's right. Oh, okay. There you go. Loved it. So good. there you go loved it so good can you believe the amount of feedback we got on um

well was whatever episode came out last week when we talked about makeup oh yeah people are talking some shit no kidding how did you feel about my sister's text, which I posted Facebook and Twitter? I honestly felt it was warranted. So last week on the podcast, you commented on my eye shadow. I asked if it was too much. You were like, no, it's good. Yeah. And Kyla texted me and she was like, just so you know, you two should not be the authorities on telling each other whether you're wearing too much makeup.

And then she sent me a picture of a drag queen. And it said, subtle. A lot like me. I told my mom the story and my mom was like, oh, true. There's some deep burns you know i'm reminded of a story about my grandma which is like one of my favorite stories uh-huh she was at a makeup counter one time and trying to pick a foundation shade and the lady behind the counter said well if you pick this shade people won't even know that you're wearing makeup and my grandma said well i'm not trying to make anyone think that the idea of being natural is just no who would want that gross

wow that was a very loudest can open i've ever heard. It's because I'm so manly. I'm so manly. Watch me crush this thing with my forehead. Okay. So I am doing a case. And I am dedicating it to my sister Casey. Okay. So you know this, but my sister Casey just had open heart surgery

this week. She's doing amazing. She's a rock star. She's doing better than I think anyone could have imagined. She's already home and recovering. And so I decided to do a case that she's been asking me to do. Oh, yay. So that she can have something to listen to during her recovery. So she's been asking me to do this case. It's local and she and I have a connection to it. You do? So it's a very minor connection. I'll tell you it at the end. Okay. But this is the murder of Kelsey Smith. Okay. It's June 2nd, 2007. We're in Overland Park, Kansas. Familiar?

Very. Very familiar. Overland Park, Kansas is a suburb of Kansas City. It is nestled safely within Johnson County. God. And Overland Park is actually the largest city in Johnson County. Because it spans the entire county from the north border to the south.

It's huge. It's literally like right across the street from where I live is Overland Park all the way down south to the Miami County border is Overland Park. It's huge. And the Miami County bird is awesome. Yes, absolutely. Okay. border is overland park it's huge and the miami county bird yes absolutely okay so 18 year old kelsey smith is just your average midwestern teenager she had just graduated days earlier from shawnee mission west high school familiar yeah no that's how I react to any high school name. And she was preparing that evening to stop by a friend's graduation pool party and then go out to dinner to celebrate her six month anniversary.

Her six month anniversary. Anniversary. Anniversary with her boyfriend, John. Just before seven on that June. Where were they going? I don't know. Probably not to Shoney's, huh? Probably not. Okay.

Just before seven on that June evening, Kelsey told her dad, Greg, a former police officer, that she was running to Target to get her boyfriend an anniversary present, but would be back before 730 when he was supposed to pick her up. As she walked out the front door, Kelsey called to her dad. I'll see you in a little bit. Love you. When Greg called out, I love you too, he had no idea those would be the last words he would ever speak to his daughter.

Kelsey arrived at the Target store near her house, which is the one that's right across the street from Oak Park Mall. It's like 97th and Quivira. It's super close to her house, so she was there minutes later. And upon entering the store, she called her mom to ask her where she could find what she was looking for. Her mom, Missy,

pointed her in the direction of the picture frames and photo albums, then ended the call with, I love you, baby. I'll see you when you get home. It was a quick, simple errand. Kelsey should have made her purchase, gotten in her car, and come right home. She should have been there waiting when her boyfriend rang the doorbell, flowers in hand, at 7.30. They should have headed off for a night of teenage fun, stopping at that graduation party

and then off to their anniversary dinner. But that didn't happen. When John rang the doorbell at the Smith home at 7 30, Greg opened the door to let him in and realized that Kelsey wasn't home yet. He tried to call her, but the call went unanswered. he tried to call her but the call went unanswered this was highly unusual kelsey was a super responsible girl the type who would call even if she was going to be just five minutes late john and greg continued to try and call kelsey but when eight o'clock came and they still had been unable to get a hold of her, they began to worry. Though she hadn't had her car long, it still had 30-day tags on it. It was an older model Buick, and they thought maybe it had broken down on her. So they hopped in the car and headed to Target,

hoping to find her in the parking lot with a car that wouldn't start. No such luck. Yeah, and even then she would have called. Yeah. Kelsey wasn't there. From there, Kelsey's family and boyfriend mounted an extended search for her. And the car was not in the parking lot. Car wasn't in the parking lot. Gotcha. Meanwhile, Greg put in a call to some police buddies and they checked to see if maybe Kelsey had been pulled over or had been in an accident or something, but that search turned up nothing. The police side of Greg knew that the timer had already started ticking. If they had any hope of finding Kelsey, statistically, he knew they only had about 48 hours. The hours ticked by. No sign of Kelsey. Kelsey's sisters were driving aimlessly around the

area when they decided to drive through the mall parking lot across the street from Target. They turned on the road that circled the mall and followed it around. As they neared Macy's, As they neared Macy's, Kelsey's car came into view. What was it doing at Macy's? She wouldn't have come to the mall without telling anyone, and the mall had been long closed by now. Kelsey's sisters rushed to the car. They could see her purse and bags from Target inside. But Kelsey was nowhere to be found.

Kelsey's sisters rushed to the car. They could see her purse and bags from Target inside. But Kelsey was nowhere to be found. Her cell phone and debit card were also missing. The rest of the family joined them in the parking lot. Greg called the police he urged his family to stay back and did not touch anything more so they had like opened the door i think they found it unlocked and they like looked through her bag and didn't see her cell phone i don't actually know that they knew her debit card was missing by that point okay um but he

he knew enough to be like okay yeah he was like is a crime scene, we're not touching it. Yeah. So he was like, don't touch anything. Stay back. He knew that this was likely a crime scene. And it was just after 11 when detectives arrived in the Macy's parking lot to process the car. So he called the police. They all waited there for the police to come.

They dusted for prints to get a better idea of who had maybe been in Kelsey's car. But the car itself showed no signs of struggle. There were no obvious signs of foul play. But during this search of the car, the detectives noticed something that they believed would give them a better idea of how Kelsey's car ended up there. There was a security camera in the Macy's parking lot that they thought should have caught her car being parked. Well, and Target has security cameras too, right? Yes. Okay.

So at this point, though, it's midnight. Yeah. The police tried to get a hold of someone but couldn't get a hold of anybody. Midnight. Yeah. The police tried to get a hold of someone but couldn't get a hold of anybody. They were just going to have to wait till morning. You're kidding me. To figure out what that camera captured.

Oh. Wouldn't that just kill you? I don't know what I would do. Yeah. So. I think I'd be a fucking crazy person. Oh, I would too. And I'd be like.

And they tried to get a hold. I'm sure they did. They had like an emergency contact number, but that person didn't have any authorization to let them see anything. Time to break the fucking rules. Right? Yeah. Okay.

So in the meantime, they're like, well, we'll have to wait till morning on the footage. So they did what police always do in a missing persons case they looked at the people closest to kelsey late that night and into the early morning hours police questioned kelsey's parents and her boyfriend john for hours um greg kelsey's dad was like i know that we're suspects we'll answer anything you want to know so that you can clear us just move on for the right person yeah kelsey's boyfriend john is like this 18 year old kid who's also just graduated high school he's like shitting his pants like has no idea why they're questioning him but he's just answering everything and they quickly rule them all out. With the people closest to her cleared, though, who did that leave?

Kelsey was a sweet, smart, beautiful, popular girl who was friendly to everyone and had a bright future. She'd planned to attend Kansas State University in the fall where she wanted to play in the marching band and become a veterinarian. Her dad said of her, she could enter a room of strangers and she'd leave with a room full of friends. During those early morning hours, detectives first started working with Verizon Wireless, Kelsey's cell phone provider, to get the tower ping information from her phone to see where it was located since it had not been found in the car. But immediately, detectives ran into problems.

At the time, Verizon didn't have a policy in place for such a situation. And there seemed to be a lot of confusion about what they did and did not have the ability to track and who they could and couldn't release that information to. So had Kelsey called and asked for her ping information, they would have given it to her. Right. Because police were calling, they wouldn't release that information because it's private. because it's private. So detectives would spend the next several days working their way up the leadership chain at Verizon

to try and get their hands on Kelsey's cell phone ping information. It took forever. They were constantly fighting with Verizon to get this information released and they wouldn't release it. Wow. In the meantime, though, Kelsey's family was wasting no time. The very next morning, they hit the ground running, handing out posters with Kelsey's face on them all over town. Yeah. They went door to door talking to anyone who would listen, trying to find anyone who had

seen anything. Later that same morning, detectives finally got their hands on the Macy's parking lot footage. The video was grainy and the lighting was bad. There was like a parking lot light that like hit the camera directly on. So they couldn't see much. But what they could see was that at 9.17 p.m. Kelsey's car pulled into the parking lot and the driver's door opened. Couldn't make out who was driving the car or if someone got out of the car. They could just see that it was parked at 9.17 p.m.

And that a door opened. Okay, now this is like insider information, but doesn't Oak Park Mall close at 9? Yes. Yeah, so I feel like that. So, okay, obviously it's not her showing up to do shopping. Well, okay. And she went to Target at seven yeah so now detectives are like okay she went to target at seven it's now 9 17 and her car's coming right

across the street i love target but you're not spending that much does not check out and so with that knowledge they went over to target to check Target's surveillance videos to try and piece together a timeline. Here's the amazing thing. Target's surveillance system is, like, known in the security world to be the best, most state-of-the-art system used in retail security. Really? It's nuts. They're, like, known for their security. Okay.

So detectives believe that they probably had a pretty good chance of catching a couple of shots of her in the store and maybe being able to piece together some of this timeline. What they got, though, far exceeded their expectations. Target's more than 40 cameras caught her entire shopping trip from start to finish, from the minute she pulled into the parking lot to the minute she walked out the door. Detectives were able to trace her entire trip through the store. They watched her park her car. They watched her enter the store. They watched her call her mom a minute after entering the store. They watched as she picked out a photo album and wrapping paper. They watched as she took her items

to the counter, chatted with the clerk, and paid. And they watched as she exited the store, got in her car, and exited the parking lot. Did they watch a creepy dude watching her. No. At first glance, nothing appeared out of the ordinary. In fact, the only thing that seemed slightly off was that when her car left the parking lot, it turned left and the Smith house was to the right. So they're like, that's a little bit odd. But other than that, nothing looked out of the ordinary. That. So they're like, that's a little bit odd. But other than that, nothing looked out of the ordinary. That's not anything. It's not anything. Maybe she's getting gas. Maybe she decided to go somewhere else. Yeah, exactly. Detectives were stuck. They'd gotten nowhere with getting Verizon to release the cell phone ping info. The videos hadn't shown much of

anything. A few Kelsey sighting tips had come in, but turned out to be nothing. Kelsey had been missing 24 hours when they decided to give the target surveillance video another look. This time, they brought it back to police headquarters. They blew it up and projected it on the viewing room wall. So they made it huge. They'd looked at it on a little monitor before. So they made it huge. They'd looked at it on a little monitor before. So they blew it up and they gathered a room full of officers to watch this video. And they all held their breath as they saw something they hadn't seen before. Blown up, they could now see that when Kelsey had left the store with her purchases,

she had put them in the passenger side of her car, then walked around to the driver's seat. And just as she opened her driver's door, a flash went across the screen. What? Except it wasn't a flash. It was a man. He had run across the parking lot and forced her into her car. Kelsey had been abducted. Forced her in as in like shoved her? Yeah, shoved her in the car and got in right behind her. Oh. With this information, detectives backed the video up and watched it with new eyes.

They watched as a man in a white shirt and black shorts walked into the store right behind Kelsey. Oh, God. They watched as that same man followed Kelsey through the store and didn't look at a damn thing other than her. They watched as he watched her get in the line for checkout. And they watched him leave the store before her so that he could be ready for her in the parking lot. And they watched as the man ran across the parking lot and pushed her into her car. It was a huge break, but now they needed to know who this man was. It was a huge break, but now they needed to know who this man was. Detectives were able to pull a pretty clear still of the suspect from the surveillance video.

And at 25 hours since Kelsey went missing, they released it to the public. Now, the public had already known she was missing. The family got the word out about that super fast. People knew within a couple of hours of her missing that she was missing yeah but now they had proof that there was foul play and they had a suspect almost immediately calls came pouring into the tip line more than 2 000 tips came in whoa and detectives were quickly overwhelmed. It would take weeks to follow up on all of these tips. They didn't have weeks. The search for Kelsey was about to take a devastating turn. On June 6, 2007, at 12.45 p.m., Verizon finally pinpointed and released the pings of Kelsey's cell phone.

They told investigators to search an area 1.1 miles north of a cell tower located near Longview Lake in Grandview, Missouri. Within 45 minutes, searchers found Kelsey's body. She was nude under some twigs and, and she'd been strangled. But detectives still didn't know who had done this to her. So they turned back to that surveillance video. They knew what time Kelsey's car had been brought to the Macy's parking lot. If she had been abducted from Target hours earlier, perhaps whoever parked her car had returned to Target for their own car. With another look at the tapes, they were able to locate an older model pickup truck leaving the Target parking lot shortly after Kelsey's car had been left at Macy's. parking lot shortly after Kelsey's car had been left at Macy's.

When they went back on the tape to find when that truck had entered the lot, they found that it had entered the Target parking lot just seconds before Kelsey had. What? Yeah. This was for sure their guy. Detectives quickly released to the public that their suspect, that they had already released the picture of, would be driving a 70s model blue pickup truck.

This narrowed the suspect field. Well, yeah. And more specific viable leads came in. More than 20 tips came in with the same name. Well, I'm sorry. A 1970s truck. They came from neighbors, from acquaintances, from coworkers. Detectives finally had a name.

Edwin Hall. And he owned a blue pickup truck. Police knew they had to get him in custody soon because with his picture all over the news, he was definitely a flight risk. Well, yeah. On that evening, June 6, 2007, just hours after the discovery of Kelsey's body, detectives pulled up to the Olathe home of Edwin Hall to find him and his wife loading his truck up with boxes and duffel bags. Oh, weird. They claim they were just getting ready to leave for a planned vacation, Kristen. Uh-huh.

Nothing shady going on here. Yeah. Just headed out of town. Forever. Totally normal. Edwin Hall was taken into custody without incident. How old? Oh, gosh.

I don't know. Oh, okay. I didn't look up his age he's um 20s oh okay okay i guess mid-20s okay when interrogated by detectives that evening he claimed his innocence he said he had been out shopping for a gift for his wife that day and admitted that he was the man caught on the target surveillance footage. And he said that he had noticed Kelsey. He thought she was cute and had nice legs.

But that he didn't know her and had no knowledge of what had happened to her. Before the interrogation, though, police had taken Hall's fingerprints. And during the time he was being questioned, they were compared to the fingerprints found in Kelsey's car. It was a match. Edwin Hall's fingerprint was found on the seatbelt release of the driver's seat of Kelsey's car. On June 7, 2007,

Edwin Hall was charged with premeditated first-degree murder and aggravated kidnapping. His bond was set at $5 million. Charges of rape and aggravated sodomy were added after the results of the autopsy came back. Those added charges made the case eligible for the death penalty. And the Johnson County District Attorney announced at the time that he would be seeking it. So over the next few months here after these charges were filed, there was a little bit of back and forth over who had the jurisdiction over prosecuting this.

Because she was kidnapped from Johnson County. Oh, yeah. And Edwin Hall was arrested from Johnson County. Oh, yeah. And Edwin Hall was arrested in Johnson County. But the body was found in Missouri. Do they know where he did the crime exactly, though? They do. It is actually believed that she was killed in Missouri. But because she was abducted from Johnson County and he was arrested in Johnson County,

Johnson County was allowed to prosecute. He's fucking lucky because in Missouri we kill you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. On July 23rd, 2008, Edwin Hall was in court for a change of venue hearing. So this had made huge news. It actually made national news. And so they were asking for a change of venue hearing

so that or a change of venue so that the trial could be held in a neighboring county and not held right there where it took place kelsey's family and supporters filled the gallery they were all wearing these blue shirts that they had all made after she had disappeared when they were searching and said kel Kelsey's army and they were in this like baby blue color which was her favorite color and Edwin Hall in a surprise move pled guilty to all counts during that hearing. Wow. Earlier the prosecutors had offered to take the death penalty off the table if he would plead guilty and waive all rights to an appeal. And on that day, he decided to take the deal. Kelsey's parents cried and held each other as he answered guilty to each charge,

capital murder, aggravated kidnapping, rape, and aggravated sodomy. After his guilty pleas were entered, District Attorney Phil Klein laid out the evidence he would have presented at trial. Klein said he believed Hall was out trolling for a victim that day. He first went out to dinner alone at a Mexican restaurant near the mall and left without. Which one? I doesn't say, but there's two that I could think of. There's on the border. On the border.

And then there's a Me Ranchito kind of a little bit further down like 95th and Flum. Yeah, you're right. Okay. I bet it was Me Ranchito though. Probably. Yeah. Because he left without paying. He dined and dashed.

I feel like easier to do at Me Ranchito than it would be to do at on the border. And plus no one eats it on the border because it's disgusting. There's literally never anyone there. So if you're trying to find victims, like who are you going to find there? Yeah, exactly. So he went out and had this dinner by himself at the Mexican restaurant, left without paying because he had no money on him. Then he said he went to the mall to shop for a present for his wife. Bullshit.

You have no money. Yep. Said he went to Dillard's and wandered around the mall a little bit. But they had price tags on everything. Yeah. It was the weirdest thing. Yeah. Actually, in this little interview that I read with him, it was like a phone interview with a reporter from The Pitch.

Uh-huh. He said, you know, he thinks it's really weird that I was just like, it looks pretty suspicious that I was like shopping that day, but I didn't have any money. But I just shop differently than everybody else. You know, I really look for something that really just bounces out at me and then I'll figure out how to pay for it. Okay. So after he left the mall, he went to Target. He watched Kelsey pull into the parking lot and followed her into the store, followed her around the store, and then left when she went to check out so he could be ready for her in the parking lot.

When Kelsey opened her driver's side door, he ran up behind her and forced her into the car. He pressed an air gun against her head. He then drove her to a wooded area near Longview Lake, where he raped and sodomized her while she was still alive. Then he strangled her with her own belt. Oh, God. The DA said that this was a particularly heinous crime because strangulation in that manner takes several minutes where she would have been very aware of what was happening to her. God, that's awful.

Horrible. God, that's awful. Horrible. When her body was found, she was nude and kind of propped into the hollow of a tree. Like, I think the hollow, like, of the roots of a tree. The belt was still around her neck, and her clothes were found, like, 100 feet away from her body. Yeah. Had he not pled guilty, the DNA evidence would have done him in. Kelsey's DNA was found on the zipper of his shorts.

The chance that it could be anyone else's DNA was one in 280 billion. Yeah. Hall's DNA was found on the steering wheel and on the driver's side seatbelt of Kelsey's car. driver's side seat belt of Kelsey's car and the accuracy of those matches was one in 5.3 million and one in 923 million respectively so these were really great DNA samples they were able to pull September 16 2008 was the day that Edwin Hall's murder trial was originally scheduled to begin and so that day they did his formal sentencing at the sentencing hall's attorney tried to give the judge a picture of young edwin's life he told the court that hall had been sexually abused by relatives from a young age and then had spent much of his life bouncing around in foster

care at one point he'd been adopted by a family who lived i believe in, in Emporia, Kansas. He lived with them for a few years until he threatened their biological daughter with a knife. And they sent him back to the foster system, foster care system. I read a little bit of an interview with the adopted mother, and she said that they had read about him in a newspaper article about children who needed

families and he felt really touched by his story and had decided to adopt him and they really tried to love him and treat him as their own she said but love can only do so much yeah at the sentencing hall's attorney said there's no excuse for what happened to Kelsey Smith but his life is an explanation for how things spun so terribly out of control on June 2nd 2007. Then Kelsey's father and sisters delivered emotional victims impact statements and in perhaps the most powerful moment Kelsey's mom Miss, spoke to the court in response to what Edwin Hall's attorney had said about his childhood. She said, I know what it's like to grow up with alcoholic parents. I know what it's like to grow up in an

abusive house. I know what it's like to grow up in a single parent household that is so poor you receive public assistance and go without electricity. I know what it's like to be molested as a child. I know what it's like to be a victim of rape. I know what it's like to be a teen mother. But I also know that life is about choices. When does one have to take the responsibility for their own life? Wow. Fucking powerful own life? Wow.

Fucking powerful, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Ultimately, Edwin Hall was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole, plus 47 years for the kidnapping, rape and sodomy charges. After his sentence was handed down, Edwin Hall spoke briefly through tears.

He said, I can't find the right words to say today. I'm so sorry for what I've done. That's it. That's all I can say. Well, yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people don't say anything so um the family said i don't know how sincere he was being and i don't really care it doesn't really mean that much to me yeah i think the thing he said to the pitch makes me more mad yeah when he was clearly at the mall oh yeah for

a victim and he's like this is the way i show up yeah so he had a son he and his wife had a son who i think was like i want to say like six maybe at the time that this happened and uh missy smith kelsey's mom said the perfect punishment would be that he never gets to see his child again because they don't get to see their child again. She's like, there's no way I can make that happen. Edwin Hall's wife stood by his side the whole time. Really? She sat right behind him at all of his court appearances, and he would look for her when he would come into court,

and they'd give these little smiles to each other. That's crazy. Did a little bit of digging. I believe that they're still married today, and that she regularly visits him in prison and by that you mean you got on facebook maybe how do you stay married to someone like i don't know yeah so after kelsey's murder kelsey's family did some stuff to keep her memory alive they started the kelsey smith foundation which um teaches um situational awareness and self-defense to

teenagers kind of tools to keep them from becoming victims okay which i think is really pretty amazing yeah because situational awareness would have gone a long way to maybe help her feel like she was being followed in that store and i think that so many people though so many times you're going through a store you don't you wouldn't realize that somebody was following you through if they weren't on the same aisle as you every time and like the footage shows that he was like walking past the aisle she was on well sure yeah he wasn't like right right next to her yeah of course and they've also worked to get kelsey's law or the kelsey smith act passed which is a legislation that requires cell phone providers to release ping information if the customer is in danger.

It has currently been passed in 23 states. It is being looked at to possibly become a federal law, but there are some people who believe that it opens, it has some privacy issues around it, and that it would give the police too much power if this was a law everywhere. So I think there's stuff that needs to be worked out with it maybe a little bit, but overall, I think there's stuff that needs to be worked out with it maybe a little bit. But overall, I think it's an important.

Yeah, no kidding. I mean, it wouldn't have changed the outcome of this case at all, but it would have allowed them to find her much sooner. They wouldn't have found her before she was killed, but they wouldn't have had to wait four days. Well, maybe someone else in the future might be saved well so and in an instance like this um there was actually a case just a couple of years ago in lenexa where a i believe it was a carjacking a car was stolen and there was a baby in the back

seat oh my god and they were able to use kelsey's law to ping the phone and figure out where the car was and they saved the five month old baby oh my god was found before anything could happen wait the baby was asleep right yeah yeah i remember that one and the person who did the hijacking had no idea no idea there was a baby in the car. Wow. Yeah. So they used Kelsey's law to track it. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Oof.

Crazy case. So my connection. Yeah. What's your connection? So Casey and I were at Target that night when this happened. We would have been. What? Okay.

So Casey and I were shopping. We were at the mall and Target that night. We, at the time Casey lived with my, my dad and Lisa and we got home and they were watching the coverage of like this missing girl. And like all that, all that was known at that point was that she had been at Target. She wasn't there. Like, I think by that point they hadn't even found her car yet and so we're like oh my gosh that's so crazy we were just at target like we were just we were

just at that target the next day it comes out that the guy that edwin hall had gone back to target and got his car at 9 20 yeah the exact time that we were walking out of Target. Shut up. Yes. We were like looking at our receipts like, holy shit, that's like the exact time we would have been walking out to our car. Whoa. Yeah.

So, I mean, that's not really a connection, but we followed that case very closely because like we felt connected to it from the very beginning and i mean it's our town like that's where we grew up like we had i mean our friend group we had a bunch of people who went to west that we were friends with or i mean it's just it's it feels like a very small town when stuff like that happens. No kidding. No kidding. And I remember I was, so I was living in Boston when this happened. I was committing that robbery. And I just remember, I remember my parents talking about it.

Yeah. It's like, that's the freaking target we went to. Yeah. It's scary, scary stuff. Super scary. Have you ever done any self-defense classes? No, I never have. So when I was in cosmetology school, because it's, you know, like 98% females who are in cosmetology school, they did come and have like somebody teach us like some basic, they did like a basic self-defense seminar

and then they tried to sell you like mace and tasers at the end of it. Oh my God, that's so tacky.y i mean you guys have really sharp scissors that's right but the thing that i remember that really stuck with me um is that like 45 percent of abductions or attacks on women happen in broad daylight like it was seven o'clock when kelsey smith was abducted it was the summer it was yeah daylight yeah out and this guy in broad daylight ran across the parking lot and forced her and him into her car it's terrifying it is terrifying. So police did not believe that this was his first attack on a woman, but he claims that it is. He claims to this day that it was his one and only.

Yeah, I'm calling bullshit. Yeah, I call bullshit on it too. Yeah. So I've done two or three different self-defense classes. I think two. One, like, you know, they teach you all these moves. And the whole time I remember thinking, I'm never going to remember these moves. And the lady who ran it was kind of, she was kind of a pill.

But she was totally right because, like, I showed up for the class. And I remember I'd been just, like, a few minutes late. And I apologized to her and I said I had to get changed from work yeah and she goes oh good and she kind of looks me up and down and I was in like yoga pants and like I was in like kind of a more of a work and she goes yeah because your attacker is gonna wait for you to get into the right outfit before he comes after you. Holy shit! Fair. Oh, my gosh. That's hilarious.

But it was so true. But, I mean, it was funny because I looked around like, we were all dressed like that. We were dressed like we were ready for the gym. And, you know, like, no, that's not going to be the way it goes. Yeah. So that class I didn't find super helpful. The one before it I did, though, taught like this very the woman who ran that one talked a lot about recognizing when things get kind of creepy

and the way you can use your voice and your body language to just let them know this is going to be really difficult for you yeah and i liked that because, frankly, I don't know that I could punch anybody. Yeah. I've got these weak little spindly arms. Yeah. But I can use my voice to maybe scare them a little bit. Yeah. And then, like, you know, you're kind of tall, so.

I could, like. Just, like, hover over them. What if. Okay, no. One thing they told me about being tall that is really great. Like they talked about, so, you know, somebody comes and they grab you from behind. Well, that's really, really bad. That's kind of hard to get out of that.

But if you're super tall, guess what you can do? You knock your head back into the guy. You break his nose and he's like, ah! And then, you know. Yeah. Also he's like, ah. And then, you know. Yeah. Also, I mean, giant wingspan, right? So you figure that's got to work in your favor. That's right.

Yeah. You just fly away. Also, treat him like a bear. And you, like, open up your coat. You're like, I'm this big. Yeah. Why am I doing this when we're on a podcast? I don't know.

No one can see all of the arm gestures we're doing. We're doing a lot of gestures. Yeah. Did I ever tell you? I feel like I did. The story about the guy who in North Carolina I thought was following me. Yes. I've got to tell this story because I think it's like a good voice story.

So I was walking Peanut. It wasn't very late, but the sun had set so i think it was like eight o'clock at night i was walking down the road i was talking to my mom on the phone and i didn't live in a great area because i made a living as a reporter right hey you jack shit yeah so i'm in you know a not great area and this route i was walking was basically i was gonna have to walk down this road and because of the layout of the road i was just gonna have to turn back around and just walk back that same sidewalk so you know i'm talking to my mom blah blah walking and i look

back behind me and there's a man following me well I didn't know if he was following me I just noticed that there was a man walking the same yeah like a few blocks behind me so I'm like okay I realize I've told a few different stories on the podcast this is not the one where it turns out I worked with the guy and everything's fine different story. Darker turn. Yeah. So I'm walking. I've just looked back, noticed the guy. And for whatever reason, like a second later, I turned back to look again. He was gone. Yeah.

Super creepy. And it was super creepy because I knew he's hiding. Yeah. creepy because i knew he's hiding yeah there was just because of the layout of the place it's like there's no there's no he couldn't have gone anywhere yes and so i knew he was either behind this really big tree yeah or he was hiding behind a house yeah so i was talking to my mom and I said, mom, I need you to go grab dad's cell phone. And if I start screaming, have I told this story on the podcast? I don't think so. I really hope I haven't. I don't know.

I know you've told me. I don't feel like you've told it on the podcast. OK, so I just seen that stupid movie with Liam Neeson, the Taken movie where it's not stupid. I love it. But, you know, I can love it. So I've got a specific set of skills yes yes yes so here's the deal yeah he told his daughter yeah shout a description of the man yeah

if you see him coming so i told my mom to get my dad's cell phone i was like okay i'm i think i'm being followed by a white male you you know. Yeah. So she's kind of like, okay. I start walking back. I get past the big tree. I know, okay, he's not behind this big tree. He is behind this house. Yeah. I get around the house.

I look back. And he is watching me from behind a set of bushes. and he is watching me from behind a set of bushes. And he made this face and I said, hey, how you doing tonight? Like, because the thing I remembered from that self-defense class is you don't necessarily have to say, I know you're following me.

You don't have to say something super confrontational. It just has to be a tone that freaks him out. That dude looked like he had been caught trying to steal cookies. I mean, he looked honestly, like, embarrassed. And he kind of slowly stood up from behind the bush. And he goes, oh, I'm okay. Oh, my gosh. And that's the end of the story yeah but i think about that a lot yeah no kidding dude like there's no good reason that you're

behind a bush definitely not definitely not at all anyway fuck that guy yeah seriously oh my gosh i mean that story could have turned out so differently. I really wish that classes like that were more like part of a required curriculum. I agree. Yeah. And I wish more common sense advice was doled out like that. Yeah. Seriously. Ooh.

Ooh. I'm glad that guy didn't try to ruin your night. That's right. I think that's the most delicate way to put that. Yeah, I'm sure that's all he had in mind. He was just going to come up and insult me. Insult you. Like, wow.

Hey, big ears. What you got? Big ears you got, grandma. Grandma? I was thinking like the big bad wolf. Oh. Yeah. Not just.

No. Not because you look old. I was even younger and sexier then. You're so young and hot, Kristen. Don't worry. That's right. 33, fountain of youth. Have you ever like shut down shit like that with your voice?

I feel like you would have no but i've had all kinds of creepy things happen to me yeah but no um the creepiest thing that has ever happened to me i was well i don't know if it's the creepiest thing but the one that comes to mind you've got the creepy olympics so many creepy. But the one that comes to mind, I was like 18 and I was at Oak Park Mall by myself. Oh, yeah. And this guy came up to me and he wanted my phone number. And I was like, oh, no, thanks. You know, I have a boyfriend.

Like Zach and I had just started dating. Yeah. And he was like much older than me like i don't even i couldn't even yeah probably 30 or i mean or more yeah and he was like come sit in these chairs with me because they have these like big leather chairs kind of set out different places in the mall where you can sit down and i was like oh no that's okay you know I'm I'm shopping and he's like sit in the chairs with me oh my god and I didn't know what to do and so I sat in the chairs and I had my phone and so I started texting Zach and I was like something weird's happening at the mall where are you but he wasn't responding and so the guy was like let me give you my phone number and I was like oh god

I'm really good thank you and he's like take my phone number down and so I like put his phone number in my phone or whatever and then I was like oh I like I was like oh I gotta go my friend's over there waiting for me and I pointed to one of the store and so I went into the store and I went up to the register where the workers were. And I was like, is there a man still sitting out there in those chairs? And they looked and they're like, yeah. And they're like, he's kind of looking over here. And I was like, okay. And I told them what happened. And they're like, I'm like, I'm just going to leave. And they're like, let's have mall security take you to your car so that he doesn't follow you. And so they did.

They called mall security and mall security took me to my car. Wow. Yeah. Thank God. And as soon as mall security walked up to the store, the guy walked away. Uh-huh. I bet he did. Yeah.

That's a scary story. It was really scary. Zach texts me back like right after I got to my car and he's like oh yeah thanks he's like oh she's playing video games what are you doing trying not to get murdered yeah thanks i almost got murdered appreciate it hope it was a good video game he's not even a he's not even a video game guy. He's playing Duck Hunt. I don't know what he was playing. Couldn't put it down. The only kind of video games he likes was the racing games.

Yeah. You know, really into Mario Kart. That's not the one. He liked the real car ones. I don't... No idea. I gotcha. Anyway, I forgave him for not saving my life that day.

Yeah. We made it through. Clearly. That's a good one to hang over his head, though. Yeah. I wonder if he'll remember it. He should. That's scary stuff.

It was really scary. So now, for a long time, my family wouldn't let me go to the mall by myself, which is probably a good rule. But now, sometimes I have to go. And so I'm required to like text my sister, text Casey like the minute I get to the mall. And then like every hour to let her know that I'm still alive. And then when I get in my car. Oh, God.

Yeah. I don't approve. yeah i don't approve i think that it's um i have this really bad habit of accidentally making eye contact with people and so it's so it's all your fault that come up to you that's great i do not have rbf that's part of my problem i've got it i know i'm i just my face is too approachable. You know what I have found is the magic cure. Getting older. Oh, probably. I mean, I'm definitely not as not as cute as I was when I was 18. No, see, I don't think it's about cuteness at all.

I think you look less vulnerable. That's probably true. Because if a man came up to you and said, sit in this chair. I'd be like, fuck, I'm not sitting in that chair. Exactly. Get the fuck out of here. Who are you? But when you're like 18, you're said, sit in this chair. I'd be like, fuck, no, I'm not sitting in that chair. Exactly. Get the fuck out of here. Who are you? But when you're like 18, 20, 22.

18, you're like, this guy's older than me. I'm probably supposed to do what they say. Yeah. Well, and I think there's also kind of like, I remember back in the day when like a guy who was significantly older would hit on you or say ridiculous shit. You'd kind of be like, what's this guy doing yeah you would be kind of internally laughing at him thinking he was ridiculous yeah like and not really yeah like for me at least not really grasping like oh this could get bad yeah exactly yeah i'm not taking

this as seriously as i should yeah yep yeah that's totally true. Yeah. Whew. Well, we both live to tell the tale. This is true. Man. We both die next week. Good Lord! What is the matter with you? Sub that back in!

You just put that in the universe! I mean, do you have all your Christmas shopping done? Probably not. No, I don't. What if this was a scare tactic to get you to only buy Gaming Historian t-shirts for everyone this year? Oh! That way I get my shopping done while I'm here. Yeah. Thank you, Kristen.

I'll take 17. Murdered by the man in my basement. Yes, I will take 17 Gaming Historian t-shirts. 10 in the retro design. 7 in the classic. All size medium. If it doesn't fit you, make a pillow outfit. I like to think that everyone on your list, like you're very specific.

I'm only friends and family with medium people. That's correct. Get out of here, smalls and larges. That's right. Your dad. oh my gosh super excited to be on the pod he should should i just start making fun of him now i mean a while ago with all the facebook stuff in the news he was like facebook is evil they're selling our data you know all all true stuff i'm not making fun of this but he was like i'm done with facebook yeah let me tell you we start talking about having him on the podcast all of a sudden he gets back on facebook and he's like oh hello

everyone i'm gonna be on the podcast so i guess facebook isn't so evil after all. Yeah. He's very excited to be on. I'm excited to have him on. I think it's going to be good. Okay. He has started, he told me he's been listening to recent episodes, thinking of where he can jump in with his little quips. And like, he was like, oh, I've got to figure out what shoes to wear, you know, because he wanted to wear his extra white.

And it's like, dad, you don't have to stack the deck there's gonna be plenty buddy listen come as you are we'll find plenty we have to wrap up by talking about what happened to me this week what happened to you this week oh i was tweeted by my idol oh yeah okay on last week's episode if you heard it i talked about how much i love dax shepherd and his podcast armchair expert and so when we put out the episode we always put it on our social media join us there if you haven't already we're on facebook episode, we always put it on our social media. Join us there if you haven't already. We're on Facebook.

We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. You're really missing us out. You're really missing out on us if you haven't made it there. We have all the words on there. That's correct. Sometimes they're in the right order. So when we tweeted out the episode on Twitter, I retweeted it and tagged Dax and Armchair Expert in it and was like, look out, I'm about to put a bunch of people on your wave.

Yeah. With our little pod. And he responded. I about lost my mind. I nearly died. It was the best thing ever. Because I love him so much. It was it was pretty cool. I couldn him so much. It was pretty cool.

I couldn't believe that he responded. I could not believe he responded. That's very, very nice. It was very awesome. Or was it nice? Or was he like, oh, my God, this podcast is clearly going to take off. Clearly this. It's going to take the world by storm.

This world famous podcast. I need to kiss their asses now. That's correct. I think that's exactly what it was. Very calculated. You're right. He's trying to get on our good side. I see you, Dax. I see what you're doing. I think we need a new

rule. No new friends. Oh, probably. Because, you know, you gotta wonder about people's motives. That's right. Any day now we're gonna be hitting it big and then these people are gonna be i mean let's learn from abraham shakespeare holy shit yeah mm-hmm let let abraham be our lottery that is correct that's exactly the analogy i was and so

far no winning tickets yeah we'll be we're gonna be looking out for dds left and right dds come in all shapes and forms kristin but you might be a terrible oh what oh you got more well i'm just thinking so i know we always tell people you know find us on social media i also want to say like the people who do find us on social media are very funny. Oh, my gosh. And they're, like, fun to talk to. Legit. So I do want to say that.

Legit thank you to the people who have joined us on social media. You make our days constantly. We love it. We're constantly, like, laughing about the comments that you guys post. And we just, it's awesome. It really is the best to be able to interact with you guys. So thank you to the people who have already joined us there. We got a very serious case suggestion.

Ernest goes to jail. Yeah. But OK, this this is kind of an old one, but I thought it was hilarious. So someone I think on Instagram reached out and said that she and her roommate have started referring to their armpits as carousels. Which cracked me up. And so I told Norman and Norman was like, is that like a weird joke that you and Brandy made up? I was like,

no, it's not an inside joke from the podcast. It's just our listeners being hilarious. Yes. You guys are so funny and we love it. Please keep the comments coming. We love interacting with you guys. And yeah. So love it please keep the comments coming we love interacting with you guys and um yeah so if you're missing out on that join us on facebook instagram twitter it's a good

time we promise should we tell them about our goal or is it a secret goal what's our secret goal well if i have to tell you then oh lord well not. Oh, Lord. Well, so we created a new goal. So our original goal was 100 reviews by Christmas. And that happened like before December even happened. So thank you guys for that. Now we're hoping to get 125. Yeah, 125 by Christmas. Which is very aggressive.

I realize that. But we would love it if it could happen. It would be awesome. So yeah, if you haven't already, head on over to iTunes, leave us a rating, leave us a review. These little milestones we set for ourselves really like they mean a lot to us. So if you're looking to support us, that would be a great way to do it. And then another great way to support us would be to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics.

Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from FBI.gov and the New England Historical Society. And I got my info from an episode of See No Evil, as well as articles from the Kansas City Star and KMBC 9 News. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.