Let's Go To Court! - 51: Johnson County’s Other Serial Killer & the Graduate

Episode Date: January 16, 2019

Brandi starts us off with the story of Johnson County’s other serial killer. That’s right, folks. There’s more than one. In the late 80’s, young women in Johnson County apartment complexes had a good reason to be afraid. Three twenty-something’s vanished without a trace. Their apartments showed no signs of a break in. But there weren’t signs of murder, either. For a while, all anyone could go on was a sinking suspicion that something was terribly wrong. Then, to everyone else in Sugar Land, Texas, the Whitaker family seemed to have it all. But that all changed one winter night in 2003. The family went out to celebrate Bart Whitaker’s graduation from Sam Houston State University, and when they arrived back home, a masked gunman shot all four of the family members. Kevin died almost immediately. Trisha died in the hospital. Bart and his father Kent survived. They begged police to find the people responsible for the crime. But police didn’t have to look too far… And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: The 48 hours episode, “Sugar Land: Life or Death” And a tad from “Thomas Bartlett Whitaker,” Wikipedia.com In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Gone in an Instant” episode, On The Case With Paula Zahn “CRIME HISTORY: Serial Killer Richard Grissom — A Conviction Without Any Corpses” by Terri Osborne, crimefeed.com “Jurors Convict Grissom in Triple Murder, Eight Other Counts” by Richard D. Lipsey, Associated Press “20 Years Later, Killer Refuses to Reveal Bodies’ Location” Associated Press  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about a guy who nearly killed an entire family. And I'll be talking about Johnson County's other serial killer. Who the hell is Johnson County's other serial killer? Oh, wouldn't you like to know? Listen and find out. That was an excellent promo. We're getting so good at this. Did you know that there was another Johnson County serial killer?

No. Okay. Let me enlighten you. I mean, I know casey mo is representing i mean we've got um you did the most famous johnson county serial killer john robinson boy did i ever my nipples are still sore from that one um but before i continue my johnson county series i have to do a quick correction it's actually two quick corrections did you make mistakes on this podcast i did okay so they were both on i'm even an episode late on correcting these because these are both on the cheaters episode um i called the episode

of 48 hours that i watched a knock at the door it was actually called a knock on the door and i believe that there's another episode called a knock at the door so that's my bad how did you realize you'd made that mistake that's well i i listened to that episode and i was like i was like i don't think that's what that was called so that i went and looked it back up i gotta tell you good for you i would never catch anything like that um and then the other one was that the nazarene university in olathe. I called it the Midwest Nazarene University. That's not at all what it's called. Yeah, it's Mid-America. It's called Mid-America Nazarene.

It was in my notes as Mid-America Nazarene. I don't know what the fuck I was thinking. I didn't even catch the mistake. My dad did. Well, and I didn't catch it. My dad didn't catch it. Yeah. We all know it's called Mid-America Nazarene.

Yes. That's, well, we're all dumb. Yes. Yeah, my dad texts me and he's like, oh, it's called Mid-American Nazarene. Yes. Well, we're all dumb. Yes. Yeah, my dad texts me and he's like, it's called Mid-American Nazarene. I was like, yeah, I know. Thank you. He's like, we called it Midwest. Well, you didn't know when you recorded the episode.

So I promise I really do know what it's called. I don't know how I called it that on the episode. I even went back and checked my notes and I have it written as Mid-American Nazarene. Norman will dock your pay. By the way, guys, just so you know, Norman claims that he owns 50% of this podcast. I don't know how he's claiming any ownership, but anyway. When all that we've done for him in his t-shirt sales. You know, Kyla asked me the other day, so how many people buy t-shirt sales?

Because of you guys, I was like, I think we've sold one t-shirt. If that. And it was to me. Okay, you ready to talk about a serial killer? I'm so intrigued. Maybe I should say that again into the mic. No, no. Are you ready to talk about a serial killer? I'm so intrigued. Maybe I should say that again into the mic. No, no. Are you ready to talk about a serial killer?

Boy, am I. It's June 26th, 1989. Dave Roosh. Okay. It's spelled like Rush, but it's pronounced Roosh. And so if I call it Rush, please catch me so that I can correct myself. You know I will never catch that. Also, majority of this information comes from an episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn.

Ooh, yes. Okay. So Dave Roosh's Monday began like any other. He went to work at his optic lens shop in Kansas City, Missouri. And when he arrived at the shop, one of his employees told them at his optic lens shop in Kansas City, Missouri. And when he arrived at the shop, one of his employees told them that his 22 year old daughter, Christine, who worked for him, had called in sick. She was having some kind of stomach issue, nothing serious. So Dave wasn't too worried. As the day went on, Dave got a feeling that something wasn't quite right.

Christine had promised her mother that she would come over that night and make them dinner. But it was nearly six o'clock and neither Dave nor his wife had heard anything from Christine, despite multiple attempts to get a hold of her throughout the day. So on his way home from work, Dave decided he would stop by his daughter's apartment and check on her. he would stop by his daughter's apartment and check on her. It was well after six when Dave pulled up to Christine's unit located in the Trafalgar Square apartment complex. These apartments are still around today, but they're now called the London House Apartments.

If you search that, they will come up. But the address is 12901 Lord Nelson Drive. So these are right by Oak Park Mall okay they're kind of okay so you know like where if you go i-35 there's that frontage road past quivira let me tell you something you don't have to tell me a thing i saw the outside of these and i know exactly where they are okay perfect okay so as we've mentioned before on this podcast lenexa is a suburb of kansas city it's located in you guessed it johnson county lenexa is where we really grew up it's where you lived it's where one set of my parents lived it's where we went to elementary school

middle school where the mall we frequented every weekend was. Oh, yes. It was very much our little corner of the world from ages like 10 to 18. So Dave pulls up to this apartment and he immediately noticed that Christine's car wasn't in the parking lot. And he found that concerning. Then when he knocked on Christine's door, neither she nor her roommate, Teresa Brown, answered, and his concern grew. Dave went home that night without making contact with Christine, and he told his wife that he felt sure something was up. The Ruches spent a long, sleepless night continuing to try and get in contact with Christine, and after all attempts failed, Dave was back at Christine's door first thing the next morning. Again, there was no

answer at the girls apartment but this time instead of leaving dave used a credit card to slip the lock on the apartment door once inside he called out christine and theresa's names as he walked through the apartment but there was no answer and a sense of dread washed over him as he entered christine's bathroom. Oh, no. There on the counter were both her eyeglasses and contacts. And Dave, working in the optical field, was very familiar with Christine's eyesight, and he knew that without those, she was nearly blind. There was no way she would willingly leave her apartment without wearing one or the other. And it would have been physically impossible for her to drive away without one or the other.

She was nearly legally blind without them. To Dave, it was a clear sign that something was horribly wrong. Yeah. Dave left the apartment scared, confused, and convinced that he needed to get the police involved. When he called 911, though, he was surprised to learn that there was already a unit en route to the apartment. Because someone saw some guy breaking in? No, they had already received a call from Christine's roommate's family. Oh.

22-year-old Teresa Brown, saying that she had gone missing the day before under mysterious circumstances. The previous day, Teresa's brother Jim had received a call from the dental office where Teresa worked as a dental assistant. The office manager was like, hey, Jim, you know, something really odd happened today. Teresa's roommate called in sick for her. Have you heard from her? And Jim's like, what? No, I haven't. And that's super weird. Like, Teresa was very responsible. She was a super reliable employee. If she were sick, she would for sure be the one to call in sick for herself. Her roommate never would have called in sick for her. And so.

Yeah. I mean, the only way you would do that is like, if you really couldn't. Yeah. In the hospital or something. Yeah. I can't imagine a situation where your roommate would be calling in sick for you.

Yeah. And so both the employer and her brother, Jim were like, okay, this is super weird. So that Monday, the same day that Christine called in sick, Jim went to the

girl's apartment to check on them at some point during the day. And just as Dave had when he checked that evening, he got no answer. Over the next several hours, Jim left several messages on Christine and Teresa's answering machine. But when evening came and he hadn't heard back, Jim reached out to Teresa's boyfriend, Mike. Mike told Jim that he'd last seen Teresa early Monday morning. So she'd spent the night at his house on Sunday, but then she'd gotten up very, very early on Monday morning so she could drive home, get ready for work, and go into work. And that was the last he'd seen of her. In the time since then, he said he'd left like one or two messages on her answering machine, but that he hadn't really given it a second thought that she hadn't returned the call yet,

that she'd just been busy probably. But when Mike learned that Teresa hadn't gone to work that day, and that Christine had been the one to call in for her, he was very concerned. Something was definitely going on. He'd seen Teresa that morning. She'd been perfectly fine. Yeah. She wasn't sick. She wasn't bedridden.

She'd gone home specifically to get ready for work. Something was not right. After talking to Mike, Teresa's brother Jim called police. In fact, he called police just minutes before Christine's dad Dave did. Wow. So Jim puts this all together, calls the police. At that same time, Dave is over at the apartment, breaking in, figuring out something's going on, and calling police. So, like, they really put this thing together right at, like, the same moments. Both the Browns and the Ruches seemed convinced that the girls were

the victims of some kind of foul play. And it didn't take long for the police to come to that same conclusion. Though the apartment didn't show any obvious signs of struggle and there was no sign of forced entry, police believed that an unknown subject had entered the apartment while Christine was asleep and that Teresa had returned to the apartment after the attack had already begun. Detectives found Teresa's blow dryer and curling iron plugged in ready for use in her bathroom. And they believe the unknown intruder had interrupted her while she was getting ready for work and likely at gunpoint had taken the girls from the apartment. It's so scary it's so scary because yeah i'm i'm just picturing you have your blow dryer going you can't hear a thing no that would be the perfect time for someone to break in absolutely and scare the shit out of you absolutely police began their search for christine and and Teresa by canvassing the apartment complex.

Surely with that many people around, someone would have seen something. But it led nowhere. None of the girls' neighbors had heard or seen anything that day. Next, the police expanded their search outside of the apartment complex. And that's when they found christine's car it was located in the parking lot of a motel 6 that is essentially right across the street from the apartment complex so it's like apartment complex empty field street motel 6 okay like from certain points in the apartment complex you can actually see the Motel 6. Okay.

So detectives believe that the only explanation for her car being found there was that someone had moved it there to conceal it. They were now more confident than ever that someone had abducted Christine and Teresa. A check of the women's bank accounts would only confirm that. They had been drained. Multiple withdrawals of the maximum allowed at several ATMs had been used to empty the accounts. Did they have videos at this time? So police are like, it's still in the very early stages of surveillance video and stuff like that. Okay.

So police get in contact with both of the girls' banks and one ATM had surveillance video. Oh my God. And it wasn't even like video. It was like it took a picture every like four seconds or whatever. Well, it's 1989. Yes. What can they do?

Yeah. And so they get that footage and they're looking at it and the transaction captured was a withdrawal from Teresa's bank account. But the surveillance images showed that it was actually Christine who made the withdrawal. The images of her were disturbing. She had large sunglasses on to hide her face, despite the fact that this transaction happened at 1030 at night. Oh, boy. And it was clear that she had been badly beaten.

There were bruises all over her face and there was a large laceration across her forehead. They could see that in the grainy black and oh, no. Yeah. And they said just the look on her face, you could tell that she was under duress, like she was being forced. Nobody else was captured on the video, though. With this new development, detectives decided it was finally time to let Christine and Teresa's families in on what was really going on. So only like a day has gone by at this point, but they hadn't told the families anything. They're like, we're working on it.

We're following some leads. We don't know anything yet. At this point, they were like, we have to tell them. This looks really bad. This looks really bad. And detectives thought by this point that there was very little chance of them finding these women alive.

Absolutely. Because the accounts were emptied by now. Yeah. If the money was gone, what's the point of keeping the women alive. Absolutely. Because the accounts were emptied by now. Yeah. What money was gone? What's the point of keeping the women alive? Yeah. Yeah. It was devastating news to the family and to the police,

but they weren't going to give up. They expanded the search and began working with other police departments in the surrounding areas. And that's when they learned of another case that they felt sure was connected oh shit on june 19th 1989 a week before christine and theresa went missing 24 year old joan butler had been reported missing when joan didn't come to work at the marketing company she worked for that monday morning her, her coworkers were concerned. Wasn't like her. So they called her father. And it turned out that he had already been concerned about her because the previous day was Father's Day and she hadn't called him. He lived in Wichita.

He's like a television executive from Wichita. She had recently moved to the Kansas City area. She'd graduated from KU and then taken this job with this marketing company in Kansas City. She was living in Overland Park. And so it was super out of the ordinary for her not to call her dad on Father's Day. And she had spoken to her mom the previous day. And she's like, you know, they had a nice conversation. She's like, OK, I'll call back tomorrow and I'll talk to dad. Of course.

Yeah. And then no call came. And they're like, that's dad. Of course. Yeah. And then no call came. And they're like, this is super weird. Yeah. So her father, Ralph, is like, something is up for sure. So before he calls police, he starts doing like a little investigation of his own to find out, you know, what was going on.

So he learned that she had been out on Saturday night at a club with friends. Joan had been the DD and she'd danced the night away, but she hadn't had anything to drink. And she'd taken her friends home and then headed home to her own apartment in the Comanche Place apartment complex in Overland Park, Kansas. Again, these apartments are still around, but they are now called the Aspen Lodge Apartments. They're at 8100 perry street in overland park and i used to fucking live here in 1991 oh my god yeah um did you hear peanut bark yeah she was also surprised shocked wow yeah um when you came across that did you

almost like poop your pants i did yeah i texted my mom i was like holy shit is this where we lived because i was pretty sure but yeah yeah you were 1991 yeah and she was like yeah why and i told her i was like i guess they probably didn't put that on the flyer that the woman was abducted from there well no kidding and that was recent when you lived there. Yeah. Yeah. So Joan was last seen about 4 a.m. on June 18th. And Joan had made it home to her apartment that night because the dress she had worn to the club was found hanging neatly on her closet door. So she had made it home. She'd taken her dress off. She was relaxed yes and then i also believe that when so ralph calls the police he's sure that something's going on and they're like sorry she's a 24 year old

woman there's no sign of forced entry or any proof that any kind of crime occurred it's not a missing person sounds like her crime was she didn't call you on father's day right yeah exactly and so they're like they're like sorry there we will not be looking into this a 24 year old woman is allowed to not call her dad yeah and so he's like no no that's not that's not gonna work for me so he didn't have a key to her apartment but like her neighbor did or actually i think what happened initially was that a neighbor was able to climb in a window at the apartment and then unlock the door and let them in. And so it was like a neighbor and then her dad all went through the apartment. That's when they found the dress.

Nothing was out of the ordinary, except there was a cigarette that she'd only smoked like half of that was sitting in the ashtray like it burned itself out. Yeah. And there was a half eaten piece of toast. And so it was like setting right there with it. Like she stopped what she was doing very abruptly. Yeah. And so. Let me tell you something.

I never stop my meals midway through. I never. I always finish my meals. Midway. I never. I always finish my cigarette. One hundred percent. I don't smoke. So he's like, no, she's missing. This would be so frustrating.

Oh, yeah. He's so frustrated. But as I mentioned, I think already, he's a TV executive in Wichita. So he uses that poll to get a story about Joan put on every news channel from Kansas City to Wichita. Yep. They're running the story from that day on, like for days, just running this story about how she's missing. But still, the police are not picking it up as an investigation. They're like, it's just running this story about how she's missing and but still the police are not picking it up as an investigation they're like it's just a media story right now we don't

have any proof that she's actually missing you know the police might have been pissed oh yeah i'm sure they were pissed and then so joan works at a marketing company uh-huh all of her co-workers super concerned about their her so they use their advertising expertise and they take out billboards all over the city with her face and her car on it so she had been in a car accident like two or three days before she went missing and so she was actually driving a rental car at the time and And so had the rental car posted, had her picture posted, and then like a number to call with tips. And so it's all over the city. Uh-huh.

And it paid off. Oh, my God. On Sunday, June 25th, the day before Christine and Teresa were reported missing, police in Lawrence, Kansas, which is about 30 miles west of Lenexa, received a call from a man at an apartment complex who said he had spotted the car that he recognized from the missing girl billboards he'd seen all over town. Yes. But remember, there's no active investigation going on right now. And so the dispatcher's like, yeah, I don't know anything about that.

You're kidding me. No. And so this guy who calls dispatcher's like yeah i don't know anything about that you're kidding me no and so this guy who calls he's like no he's like this girl is missing you've seen the billboards you've seen the stuff on the news like this girl is missing i swear to you it's this car it's in the parking lot you guys have to come check it out yeah and like he had such like an impassioned plea that the dispatcher was like, all right, I'll send somebody out. Oh, my God. Yes. Let me convince you to do your job. Yes.

Wow. And so they send out one officer. He comes to the apartment complex, and he finds the car, and he parks a little ways off, and he just decides he's going to watch it. He's going to see if anybody comes to the car. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And he just decides he's going to watch it. He's going to see if anybody comes to the car. Wow. OK. Yeah.

And so he sits there and he waits and he waits and he waits. Almost two hours go by. God, I'd be so bad at that job. Oh, yeah, me too. And then a man walks out to the car and opens the trunk. Yes. Yeah. car and opens the trunk no yes yeah so the officer gets out of his car and he walks up to the man and he's like hey um this car has been reported missing you know can you give me some form of id you know maybe it's just like a mix-up or whatever and the guy's like oh yeah yeah no problem he's

like my id is in my wallet my wall is just over in my apartment no don't let him go i'll grab it and so the police officer's like yeah that's fine so he walks with him to his apartment the guy walks in the apartment slams the door in the police officer's face and immediately locks it oh and so the police officer's like oh shit, shit. Oh, shit. Like, this is something for sure. Yeah. He kicks the door down. Oh, yes. Runs into the apartment just in time to see the guy diving out the back window of the apartment. Yeah. And he takes off on foot.

Police officer tries to pursue him. The guy's too fast and he's got a head start. Oh. He loses him. Terrible. That sucks. It sucks. So he calls it into dispatch and he's like, this guy him. Terrible. That sucks. It sucks. So he calls it into dispatch and he's like, this guy just ran from me.

There's definitely something going on. Police respond. It's a huge dispatcher. Like, I'm sorry, I can't find that file. So huge police response comes. This officer who's waiting for kind of backup. He's already lost the guy. He decides he's going to go back to the car.

He goes, he looks in the car. Inside is a wallet. And inside the wallet is an ID. For a man? Of the man he just interacted with. Oh, my God. His name was Richard Grissom. When detectives ran his name,

they learned that they were dealing with a career criminal and a man who was something of a chameleon. Grissom was half African-American and half Korean. And in every picture they showed of him on this episode, he looks completely different. Wow. The way he wore his hair would change his look completely. And he wore all kinds of different glasses. He definitely was someone who could very easily disguise his appearance. And detectives said he had the ability to kind of pass as a handful of different races.

So people would describe him differently every time they saw him. They're like, oh, yeah, he was a Hispanic man. Oh, it was an African-American guy. Oh, no, for sure. he was a hispanic man oh it was an african african-american guy oh no for sure it was a caucasian dude uh-huh like he could pass oh you can't catch that guy no and so they're like holy shit this guy is dangerous because he can hide in plain sight yeah so they set up like the craziest manhunt in lawrence to find him so basically they say we're looking for a man we're looking for a man yes they basically put the entire city on lockdown they set up roadblocks on every street that leads out of lawrence whoa they bring in canine units they're looking for

this guy everywhere meanwhile they find out that not only does he have this crazy checkered criminal past, he's actually a convicted murderer. Oh, well, why is he out? So he was convicted of murdering a Lansing, Kansas woman when he was just 16 years old. Because he was convicted as a juvenile, he only served three years before his release. Three years? Yes. I don't know. I don't know about that one either.

Yeah. So they're like, oh god, this guy's even more dangerous than we originally thought. So they've got roadblocks set up. They're like, we've got to keep this guy in Lawrence. We cannot let him out of the town.

But somehow, and we'll find out more on this later. Don't pull a Kristen. He beats the roadblocks. He gets out of Lawrence. Because the very next day, hes christina theresa in lenexa kansas do you think it was that he was so fast that he got out of lawrence before the roadblocks were up or do you think he just chameleoned his way out of it he chameleoned his way out of it i know exactly how he got out of it and i'll tell you about oh my god okay okay yes mean, I can tell you about it now if you want. No, no, no. Okay. Leave some suspense.

Yeah. I'm on the edge of my seat. That's right. Keep me there. Okay. So now we're up to June 27th, 1989. Joan has been missing for more than a week. Christine and Teresa have been missing a couple of days. A massive manhunt is underway for richard grissom the entire

kansas city metro is on edge gripped with fear investigators started looking for connections between the girls and richard grissom and they found it really grissom worked at both apartment complexes oh grissom had a small painting company with a friend, and the company was contracted by both the Trafalgar Square apartment complex and the Comanche Place apartment complex. As a contractor there, Grissom had a master key to the apartments. What? Yes, so that he could go in and do maintenance during the day while people were gone.

Oh. Oh. Yeah. And they don't do a background check on someone who has a master key? But I'm guessing that the juvenile record would be sealed, so you wouldn't see the murder charge. But I think he had other criminal charges. I was going to say, career criminal to me. How old was he? He was 28 when this happened. Okay, so he had to have done yes yeah yeah i i

wonder yeah if you maybe they didn't do background checks maybe they're like oh this guy's super nice he was very handsome uh-huh he had a very like genuine warm looking smile he's a great smile and like everybody who like knew him as a contractor at these apartment complexes said he was the nicest guy was always friendly like see that scares the shit out oh it's super fucking scary it's terrifying we always trust the hotties yes yeah yeah I can't. He didn't have great hair. His hair was a problem most of the time. Very chiseled jaw.

Great smile. Can I Google him? Yeah. Okay. Richard Grissom. Yeah. I'm not going to ruin anything, am I? No.

Oh. Okay. I'm looking at very recent pictures and he's still a good looking guy like some younger pictures of him because well boy he has had some misses with the hairdos hasn't he yes okay now i'm somehow i'm running into pictures of old white guys hang on yeah he's handsome he's very handsome are you done staring at him no okay i'll stop

they in this episode of on the case of paul's on they had you know usually they have like four pictures that they just like zoom in and zoom out of. Yeah, I hate that. They had a shit ton of pictures of him. And he always has this great big smile. His hair is different in every single picture. And he, like not a single picture of him except for his mouth looks the same. It's so scary.

Okay, so they find out that he's this contractor who's been working at both apartment complexes. He's got a master key, which explains why there was no forced entry. But those were not the only places he worked, which meant that he had more master keys to more apartments all over the city. They had to find him and they had to find him now. So that same night, the 27th of June, a maintenance worker at an apartment in Grandview, Missouri, approximately 20 miles southeast of Lenexa, was walking around the property and he saw a man kind of skulking

in like an alleyway or a breezeway between apartment buildings and the maintenance guy goes over and he like shines a flashlight on him and he confronts him and he recognizes him yeah as richard grissom the painter yeah who often does work there and then he's like hey what are you doing here yeah and he's like what are you doing and he's like oh i'm looking for an apartment and he's like uh-uh dude and he's like oh he's like i'm calling the police no no no you don't say that to the murderer so he goes to go call the police he didn't have a fucking cell phone it's 1989 yeah comes back of course richard grissom's taken off on foot yeah police come he grissom's long gone but in his haste to run away he made a big mistake he left his fucking car behind

really yes he took off on foot and left his car did he feel like his car was so recognizable i think maybe he thought he didn't have time to get in his car and get away before that guy was going to be back how fast did he think think this guy was? I don't know. I mean, it's a car. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So detectives get a search warrant. Like, it takes a little time to get the search warrant.

So they actually tow the car to police headquarters. And then once they get the search warrant, they open it up. And it's like they hit the fucking jackpot. Inside, they found numerous pieces of identification, including driver's licenses and credit cards belonging to Christine Roosh, Teresa Brown, and Joan Butler. Yeah. So they're like, okay, well, our suspicions are clearly true. Like, this is definitely our guy. But again, we have no idea where he is now yeah so the search intensified the metro squad was called in which the metro squad is for people

outside of the kansas city area it's like this um group of detectives that like assemble when you put your you know your rings together but it's like they say, Earth! Wind! Fire! It's like all of the most seasoned detectives from all of the little cities that make up the Kansas City Metro. They all come together. And Captain Planet says... Yes! And so the Metro squads called in.

They follow up on every single tip, every single lead that they had. And one tip paid off big. The Metro Squad received a call from a woman in Chicago who had dated Grissom. Oh. She said that he had been calling her a bunch and that she was scared and wanted to help so that he would be captured. Uh-huh. So they tapped her phone and they waited for him to call again.

And to their surprise, he did. He called. He said he was in Texas. He said he wanted her to come be with him. And she was like, because detectives were standing right there with her, she was like, of course, absolutely, I'll come down. Yeah, yeah. Tell me where, tell me when, I i'll be there tell me your exact location and so she sets up a flight and he's supposed to come pick her up

at the airport in dallas did he get on july 7th nope he shows up to pick her up and he's arrested oh my gosh what an idiot well yeah because i assume for all those other calls, she'd been like, no, no, no. Yeah. But then all of a sudden, she's like, absolutely. I would love to come see you. I was just waiting for the invitation to get to Texas. Yeah. So he goes to the gate to pick her up.

And instead, she's not there, but he is taken into custody. Oopsies. Yeah. So they immediately take him to an interrogation room that's right there at the airport and they interrogate him for like seven hours and he is like nope i don't know anything about any missing women oh come on dude yeah in the meantime they find the stolen car that he had been driving in the airport parking lot. Uh-huh.

And they go and they open it up and they find thousands of dollars in cash and a kill kit complete with a box knife, a hammer, a rope, gloves, and a pellet gun. So he was planning to kill this woman. Yeah, probably. Like almost immediately after he got her money. Yep. Ugh. to kill this woman yeah probably like almost immediately after he got her money yep oh so during the seven hours of interrogation grissom denies knowing anything about these missing girls and he sticks to that story he's like nope i don't know anything don't know anything nope i don't know anything but i'm guessing that uh you guys will be able to dig up that information oh come on oh yeah did he

really say that yes yeah yeah and he makes like a couple of other little like snide comments about how well he's like i don't know about the girls they're probably not even dead well they're probably dead by now oh yeah terrible and so like the detectives keep putting on the pressure they're just like more and more pressure and at one point it seemed like he was about to talk and he was like you know i could tell you everything you want to know. I could tell you exactly how everything went down. But what's in it for me? So he's like trying to work a deal. And detectives were like, nope. No dice, buddy.

We have got more than enough on you. You're not getting any deals. You are the Ted Bundy of Johnsonson county and we will convict you uh-huh and so he doesn't say another word so they extradite him back to johnson county but because no bodies had been recovered it wasn't until august 16th that a judge ruled there was probable cause that a crime had been committed. And Richard Grissom was officially charged with first degree murder of Joan Butler, Christine Roosh and Teresa Brown. So they have been in custody that whole time. Yeah, obviously.

But they couldn't officially charge him with the murder until because there were no bodies. There's no bodies. There was no blood there was no nothing yeah so now the prosecutor's like okay we've got these connections we've got all of this circumstantial evidence we've got to be able to put this together in a way that a jury will see that without a doubt, first of all, these girls are dead. Yeah. And that he murdered them. Because all they have is a circumstantial case.

I'm kind of surprised they didn't make a deal with him. To get the bodies? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I am, too. Like, take death penalty off the table and maybe you get some answers. They didn't seek the death penalty.

I don't think the death penalty was active in Kansas at this time. Oh, that's right. There was a time when you couldn't do it in Kansas. Oh, okay. Never mind. Yeah. This death penalty was never mentioned in this. Oh.

Well. Interesting. Interesting. well interesting so they kind of take their time putting together these pieces and then a couple of things fall into place so they talk to marcellus tibideau who went by the nickname frenchie so frenchie tibideau was grissom's business partner. They owned the painting company together. Okay. And Thibodeau is how Grissom beat the roadblocks. Oh!

No! Yes. So on the day that Lawrence was locked down, Richard Grissom called Thibodeau, and he was like, hey, my car broke down i need a ride back to lenexa i'm in lawrence can you come get me and he's like yeah dude no problem and so he comes and he picks him up from somewhere in lawrence right he gets in the car and he tells detectives that immediately um something is off okay richard and he's like dude what's up and he's like oh i've been scamming

this lady and i think that it's about to catch up with me and whatever i think i just need to get out of town and he's like okay all right and so somehow they go through the roadblock but like richard grissom has a hat on and he keeps it down. And like the he I don't know if they didn't ask for an ID or if they just like looked in the car. You're kidding me. Literally got just went right through the roadblocks because he wasn't the driver. Yeah. They were so focused on finding one guy. Yes.

Car. Yes. Yep. So. So Thibodeau takes him back to his apartment. He had an apartment in Lenexa. I don't know what apartment it is. I know for sure that the apartment that he lived in at the time has been torn down now.

Oh, okay. But I don't know where it was. But it was close to where the Trafalgar Square apartments were. So he takes him to his apartment. He goes in with him. And Grissom just immediately starts packing bags and he's like yeah dude i just need to change the scenery i gotta get out of town you can have the painting company take it it's all yours i'm gonna go uh-huh and so he's like okay

and then he asks him to drop him off at the motel six because that's where his car is parked oh yeah yeah so he takes him to the motel six he loads all of his shit up in his car and he takes off and tibido says that's the last he had seen of him and so when he's talking to detectives he's like i had no idea you know that was helping him escape this you you know, manhunt. And I didn't know that he was fleeing. Yeah. He's like, he does have this storage unit in South Overland Park that you might want to check out. Oh, my God.

Yeah. All these Johnson County serial killers have storage units? And so police go to the storage unit and inside of it is mostly just painting supplies. Okay. Police go to the storage unit and inside of it is mostly just painting supplies. Okay. But they do find some balled up duct tape and it has hair in it. Oh.

And so they take apart this duct tape and the hair in the duct tape was deemed to be microscopically similar to Christine Roosh's. Okay. Yeah. So. I wish. Oh, DNA. Come on. I on i know right yeah dna didn't exist yet because i mean i'm yeah yeah so they're like okay well that's great now we've got this story about how he fled lawrence like we for sure know that you know that that kind of puts together some of the puzzle. Let's see what else we can get. Why would you bring back balled up duct tape? No idea.

Or maybe he had her. Maybe he held her in that storage unit. And just left it behind in an accident. Okay, I would buy that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you this now.

It doesn't really change the outcome. They've never found the girls' bodies. You're kidding. Never. Oh. Nope. So they get Thibodeau's story, and he's going to testify at trial. And then they get a call from another woman who, right around this same time june 1989 she is home alone in her kansas city

missouri apartment she wakes up there's someone straddling her chest oh my god he's got a gun pressed to her head he says don't look at me don't say anything come with me or i'll kill you and so she's like okay i'll do whatever and so she gets up he leads her out of the apartment with this gun pressed against her head and she gets outside and she's like what am i doing i cannot go with this man i go with this man he's gonna kill me for sure be dead and so she just starts screaming yeah and yelling and he's like he's like i'm gonna shoot you i'm gonna shoot you if you don't shut up and he she just will not stop neighbors start coming outside yes he shoots her it's a pellet gun no oh my god amazing shoots her it's a pellet gun so

she's like oh that kind of hurts i mean it more than that, but it's not a bullet. She doesn't go down or anything. You know, I bet, I bet, though, it surprised the hell out of her. And I'm sure she did think she was really shot for a minute. And he takes off on foot. I love it. So when all of this stuff comes out about these women, she's like, oh, that was the guy. Oh, shit, that's the same guy.

So she can't ID him because he was behind her the whole time it was dark in the apartment the neighbor yes came outside yes positively ids him oh my god so he is able to testify at trial as well so i love this story oh yeah i've never heard this story. So Richard Grissom's trial began in late October 1990. It was one of the biggest trials in Johnson County history to date. The people lined up every day to be able to get into the courtroom. Huge media coverage around it. The prosecution called more than 100 witnesses and pieced together what seemed like thousands of pieces of circumstantial evidence. So there were a couple of things that at the time seemed like real tangible forensic evidence. So the hair on the duct tape, right? Obviously, we know now that that maybe wasn't

that reliable. But at the time that was deemed like yes that's 100 microscopically similar yes yep um there was a drop of blood that was found in the trunk of the rental car that joan had uh-huh and it was deemed to be her blood type wow so it was a rental car there was no reason for her blood to be anywhere on it unless she had been murdered and put in the trunk of the car. Yeah. It was just a drop, though? They described it. One place said there was blood in the back of the car, and one said there was a drop of blood.

Probably just a drop. Probably. Yes. So at the trial, Arcelas Thibodeau testified to everything that he had told detectives, which I think would have been really fucking hard because that's his friend and his business partner that he is having to stand up there on the, but at the same time, he aided him and abetted him after the fact without really knowing what he

was doing. I would think that would hurt the friendship. If I had found out that you had, I don't mean like it would be hard because his friend, I mean, it would be fucking terrifying. Oh, okay. I thought you were saying, no, no saying no no no no not because they're friends no i think it would be terrifying okay you can now see what this person is capable of and you have to go up

there and testify against them 100 with you i was like i don't know brandy if i found out you were a serial killer serial killer yes you should 100 i turn against me. I'd turn on you pretty fast. Yes. I'd be like, I knew it all along. Yes. I was in it for the long game. That's right. Yeah. So that woman who was almost another victim of his testified. Holy crap.

The neighbor testified. All of these pieces that they laid out for the jury, like they just laid out every little bit. And so much of it was circumstantial so there was such a risk yeah that the jury just wouldn't see it the way they did so prosecution lays out their case they rest the defense gets up and they say there's no proof that these women are dead. There's no proof that any crime has occurred. The defense rests. Rested without calling a single witness.

Well, I don't think it's a bad tactic. I don't either. If you can't find anyone who has said, oh yeah, I saw her on this date or something like that yeah so november 3rd 1990 their jury gets the case and they deliberate and the families of the girls are like oh my gosh i hope that they i hope that they understand this circumstantial evidence i hope that they see it means the same thing we see it means. But like, it's so in the air when you have no body.

This was the first case tried in Johnson County with no body. Yeah. And there were three murders with no bodies. Yeah. After 12 hours of deliberation over two days, the jury found Richard Grissom guilty on November 4th, 1990. On November 27th, he was given four life sentences. So one for each murder and then one for all of like the aggravated battery and stuff and robbery and whatever they were able to charge him with as well. Yes.

Whoa. able to charge him with as well yes whoa um so he will actually be eligible for parole in 2093 um he would be 133 years old yeah i think i think we're safe yes um he to this day refuses to say where the bodies were what a tur turd. Or how he murdered the girls. The lead detective in the case said that it feels, even though they got a conviction, it feels like a failure because they weren't able to bring the girls home to their parents. That would drive me crazy. Christine Roosh's dad says that he doesn't, he does not believe that they'll ever find the girls, but that it allows him to be at peace because he can imagine her death how he wants to. He doesn't have to know what really happened to her.

Yeah. And I get that. Yeah. Richard Grissom is the worst kind of serial killing asshole because he's super fucking charming. And because of that, he is moved to a different prison in the Kansas prison system every nine months because he makes friends with the guards. And they are such a worry about him being an escape risk. Oh, my gosh. Because he could convince a guard to help him escape.

Wow. Yes. That's crazy. Isn't that crazy? He's moved every nine months. So he can't get too friendly. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

And that's the story of Johnson County's other serial killer. Okay, so technically, based on the facts presented here, he is technically a serial killer because he killed someone when he was 16. And then he killed the one girl and then the two girls. There is actually another murder or three, that he is suspected in one um the it's pretty much like 100 that he murdered this woman but they've never tried him for it so wichita woman that he had a connection to i don't know exactly what the connection was she was murdered one week before joan butler was okay yeah yeah probably um and there's two other women who went missing in 1989 in Kansas that have not been found. And they're pretty sure that he's tied to them as well.

Oh, my gosh. Is that not so scary? Okay, so I lived in an apartment in Lenexa when Zach and I first moved into our first apartment. I lived in an apartment in Lenexa when Zach and I first moved into our first apartment. We lived in an apartment in Lenexa. And the door had a handle lock, a deadbolt lock, and then an interior deadbolt that can only be locked from the outside and has no – can only be locked from the inside, has no outside access. And so when we moved in, I asked my dad about that. I was like, why would you have that lock yeah and he's like oh a lot of apartment complexes starting them putting them in after

richard grissom because if you have that locked while you're home even if someone has a master key to your apartment they would not be able to gain access wow yeah yeah yeah okay yeah holy yeah that story was terrifying terrifying that was really good yeah so i've got one more johnson county case i'm gonna do and then i'm done talking about how terrifying my bubble is yeah that it kills me that they never found them because don't you imagine that they're all probably in the same place yeah so um there's some detectives who believe that he buried them somewhere based on the oh you'll dig it up you'll dig it up thing that he said during his interrogation the prosecutor believes that he probably took them to the landfill because if they were there within 24 hours, they would be buried 200 feet deep with the way that landfills are turned over. Yeah, I think it's just terrible that those families will never get to have that closure

yeah yeah and it's just like this little bit of like something that he holds on to a little bit of power i know where they are and you don't yeah yeah what an ass yeah Yeah. Speaking of asses, you ready for this one? I am! Okay. I'm debating, should I pee? If you're thinking about maybe having to pee, probably do it. I should probably do it.

You know what I really want is a donut. Do you have any? No! Okay. What I'm about to tell you comes almost entirely and i mean like i took a couple sentences from wikipedia so this comes almost entirely from the 48 hours episode sugar land life or death great episode and it pains me to say this but this idea came from dp oh so we've got dp on the episode even when he's not here yes do we want to talk for a moment about the outpouring of love

that dp has received we should and we should also tell people we're a little bit hurt by it what a monster he is i think i'm a little bit hurt about how much more people love him than us so you tell people about the love i'm gonna pull up the text messages oh yeah yeah oh my gosh so the general consensus is that the episode with dp is the best episode we've ever put out in the history of ever and you know what i it's so good i but here's the thing yeah you know we look at the analytics yeah and like i told you we got like more than a hundred more listeners for that episode on its first day than any other episode we've put out so thanks a lot i mean you can't you can't argue with the numbers but i'm sorry we're not enough for you. No, but it was really a good episode. He did great on it.

Yeah, it was really fun. But he is also really feeling himself. He's got a Twitter and an Instagram now. Yeah, he found out you guys were giving him compliments on Instagram, and so he started an Instagram account. 60 years old, by the way way in case anyone's interested so okay as you guys know um from listening to the podcast I spent the week between Christmas and New Year's in Florida for a wedding I went with my family you know my dad was obviously there and then we

got back and there was like a day to get ready for our next episode and record so anyway not a lot of time but in the meantime our episode with my dad came out people really liked it so i started a thread with my mom and dad and i texted them and i said the reviews are in people love the dp and i took that screenshot of some of the praise he'd gotten. And my mom responded, disturbing! Exclamation point. And my dad goes, my guest fee will double next time. And then, like, two minutes later, episodes not on YouTube or Facebook yet?

And I got that and I was like, what? And I said, we don't even put episodes on Facebook. Yeah. And he responded, because apparently he's now our manager and very concerned about this. Facebook has no announcement that the episode is out there. Last two episodes not on YouTube. Wow.

Quite the critique we're getting here. And I would just like to say for the record, the announcement was on Facebook. It was on Facebook. And I would like to say for the record that we have- When would you have put the episodes on YouTube? You had no time. So here's what I responded. I said, calm down, Diva Cup.

I was on vacation. Diva Cup! I was on vacation this week. You may remember. And brandy posted the facebook thing a few hours ago mom please keep him in line so yeah we have like 85 people subscribed to us on youtube i will be the first to admit youtube is not the top not the top priority no okay the whole motive behind that low was because he wanted to share it and get more compliments. Yes.

Yeah. There's no mystery as to why he wanted us to be on the top of our game. Making him look bad. You know what? I will not be one bit surprised to learn when he tells us that he now owns 50% of this podcast. I think we're being nudged out, Kristen. Pretty soon we own nothing. What do they really get from this podcast, though, is the question.

So a couple days ago, I was with my parents. My dad said, oh, my gosh, we just watched the best episode of Dateline. I was like, please, no, because I hate it when he tells me these stories and my mom always weighs in with why he's wrong and blah, blah, blah. He started telling me, and I had to admit I was intrigued. It took a little while to figure out it wasn't Dateline. It was 48 hours. But bottom line, this is a great story.

Excellent. Brandy, buckle up. Okay. We got an email, by the way, from a listener who said she was really missing you buckling up for all the puppy rides. I just buckled up just now. Okay, very good. I'll do a double buckle. Also, she started her email in the best possible way.

She said, I know you probably get a lot of fan mail. Boy, do we i was just like waiting through all of it you know shockingly little it's it's amazing that i can even remember hers amidst all the other fan mail we get. So here we go. The Whitakers were a fun family. Kent and Tricia met on a blind date and they hit it off right away. They eventually got married and had their two sons, Bart and Kevin.

Bart? I know. Why are they naming their kid Bart? You want to know the weirdest part? His first name is Thomas. His middle name is Bartlett. He goes by Bart. You want to know the weirdest part? His first name is Thomas. His middle name is Bartlett. He goes by Bart. What? I know.

Well, that's not the weirdest part of this story, although it is up there. Yeah, why would you choose to go? Why? I don't know. Ugh. The oldest son.

Even Bartlett's way better than Bart. I don't know. Six of one half dozen't have the other. Sounds like a pair. Yeah, but you don't want to be a pair. Maybe I do want to be a pair. Okay, you do you.

I'll be Thomas. So the oldest son, Bart, was really smart and funny. Kevin was sensitive and sweet. Both of the boys were well liked. Trisha and Kent did well for themselves. I, by the way, I feel like I'm you right now because you always set these things up. Like everything was perfect. And let me tell you, Kent was an accountant and Trisha was an elementary school teacher. Everyone said that their home in Sugar Land, Texas was full of love. In fact, the Whitakers were so welcoming that a lot of

the kids thought of Kent and Tricia as their second parents. In the winter of 2003, the family had a lot to celebrate. Bart had just finished up his finals at Sam Houston State University, and he was about to graduate college. It was such an exciting moment. So on December 10th, when he told his parents, hey, I want to go out to eat, they were like, sure, of course. That night they went out to Papa Doe.

Yeah, Papa Doe. It's a seafood restaurant. Thank you. Yes. I was so nervous because it was French. And we all know how good I am at pronouncing French words. It's a famous seafood chain. Oh, I see.

I didn't know it was a chain. I just knew, like, I'd never seen it before. Is it good? Yeah, it's really good. We went there a few times when Zach lived in Houston. For graduation or something? Easter, I think, once. We went there a few times when Zach lived in Houston. For graduation or something? Easter, I think, once. Because we went down there for Easter one time to visit him.

I don't know. We? Who'd you take with you? I went with Zach's parents. Zach's parents took me down there, and then I flew home because I stayed after they left. It was very nice of them to let me hitch a ride. You never thanked them at the moment, but now all these years later. Yes.

No, we actually almost died on that trip what it was horrible what happened we were driving through dallas uh-huh you know traffic in dallas is insane insane the highways have like eight lanes each direction it's nuts we're on the highway there's this truck like two cars up and one car over from us that's got mattresses in the back of it oh no not strapped down not strapped down it's like rush hour traffic the mattresses fly up oh no tumbling oh through the air towards our car zach's stepdad managed to somehow swerve out because a car had to swerve into our lane to avoid the mattress. Right. He managed to like swerve out and then like a lane went away.

So the median came back. Oh, God. He had to swerve back in. Somehow we didn't die. And it was a miracle. Is he a former NASCAR driver? That's crazy. Seriously, it was the craziest thing.

Oh, luckily we had just had a bathroom break right before that or we all would have wet our pants. Yes, that's the part that strikes me as very lucky. Anyway, Papadeau, famous seafood chain. So they went to Papadeau. They took some pictures. They laughed. They had fun. And as a graduation present, I'm sorry, I'm having.

Do you need a grapefruit again? I hope that people have done their homework and watched that video. Not at work. Yeah, not at work and not in front of children or anybody else with eardrums. So they took some pictures. They laughed. They had fun. And as a graduation present, Kent and Tricia bought Bart something he'd always wanted.

What? A Rolex watch. What? Oh, yeah. They were really proud of him. Like, they really wanted to. He's an accountant. She's an elementary school teacher.

How are they buying him a Rolex? See, now, I get what you're saying about the elementary school teacher. Your pay is kind of capped at a certain rate. But an accountant, you know. And they had a really nice home. I mean, I think they did pretty well. Holy hell, a Rolex. Did you not get a Rolex for graduation?

No. Yeah, me neither. They're like $30,000, like on the low end. See, these are the things I don't know. I mean, I doubt they, mean hold on yeah maybe i'm wrong maybe that's like the gold one okay maybe you can get them for like here is like a shitty silver one six thousand dollars god that's still a really nice graduation like a vintage collectible one that's four hundred thousand dollars okay well they didn't get him that so you know they all

had a nice time they ate their food they headed back home kevin was the first one to the door trisha was right behind him kevin opened the door, walked in, and then there was this incredibly loud noise, a bang. Kent was just a little bit behind both of them. So he heard this loud noise, was like, whoa, what's going on? And then he heard Trisha, who was just behind Kevin, shout, oh no. And then there was another loud bang. Like a gunshot? Yeah.

Who's shooting them? Kent runs up to the door. He sees Kevin and Trisha are on the ground. They've both been shot. And there's a man standing inside his home wearing a ski mask. And, you know, of course. Where's Bart? So Bart is right behind Kent.

Okay. So Kent is stunned. Then all of a sudden he feels this explosion in his shoulder he's been shot he's been shot by this point bart comes running into the house because you know he's like holy shit what's going on he runs toward the gunman and the gunman shoots bart the entire whittaker family had been shot a neighbor heard all the noise again nice neighborhood yeah four gunshots a bunch of screaming yeah neighbor hears the noise rushes over by that point the gunman is gone the neighbor called police Kevin died almost immediately and Trisha died at the hospital oh my gosh so Kent and Bart fully recovered they had one directive for police find the guy who killed Kevin and Trisha

find the guy who tried to wipe out our entire family police began to investigate the scene at first glance they kind of had this theory probably they're dealing with a burglary gone wrong yeah the family had probably just come in at the wrong time surprised the guy and that's just what happened so they look around and sure enough all the dresser drawers are pulled open like somebody had been looking for valuables but something is up all the drawers are open the exact same distance which might not sound weird but when you open you don't yeah yeah so like picture a big dresser and every like nine drawers are all out like seven inches or something. On top of that, all the stuff was still seemed to be in the drawers.

So if this was a burglary, it was like the neatest, kindest, most respectful burglary where the guy was like, well, you know, I'd like to look, but I won't touch anything. respectful burglary where the guy was like well you know i'd like to look but i won't touch anything also all the electronics were still in the house all the jewelry was still there the only thing that was genuinely messed with was the gun safe it had been pried open but that was kind of weird too because their gun safe was kind of tucked away in the house you kind of had to know where to go to find the gun safe so whoever committed the crime knew where to find the gun had staged a burglary and had used the Whitaker's own gun to shoot all of them. Mm-hmm. At that point, detectives were like, hmm, super weird.

Obviously not a random crime. No. In fact, while the officers were looking around the house that night when the Whitakers had all been shot, one officer said to another, I think I've been here before. What? Someone was making threats against this family.

So. I always think that's interesting. So do you ever watch like Live PD and stuff? No, no. Okay, so Live PD is like Zach's favorite show and so it's on our TV a lot. Okay. But something that I find so interesting is that the police always remember when they've

dealt with someone before. It's like this crazy police memory thing when they're, they're can be in a completely different situation and they're like, they pull somebody over and they're like, dude, didn't I just have to kick you out of Shady's bar last week? How do they remember that? It's crazy to me. Hmm. Yeah.

See, it doesn't surprise me that they would remember this. Mm-hmm. Although, well, okay, we'll get to it. Okay. All right. So they interviewed Bart and Kent. And in the interview, Bart mentioned, you know, oh, we were out for my graduation dinner. I'm about to graduate from Sam Houston State University. And detectives were like, okay, cool. Congratulations.

The next day, they pulled his transcript. He's not about to graduate! There's no gunman! It's Bart! It's all cover-up! Well, no. I mean, I don't know. But Kent got shot. Yeah, kent but kent is saying someone was there to protect his other kid okay okay obviously not so bart did not shoot the whole family to cover up that he's not graduating from college. And then Kent was like, my son, I'll protect you. Let's see. I'm guessing no.

Okay, so Bart, at the very least, is not graduating from college. So yeah, turns out Bart was not about to graduate. In fact, he hadn't even been a student at Sam Houston for some time. According to his transcript, he was a freshman and he was on academic probation. Shit. Yes. Oh my gosh. Detectives were like, whoa, this is weird.

This kid is lying about something pretty big. Yeah. And he's lying to everyone about it. Meanwhile, the community is obviously well aware of the crime. Hundreds of people attended Kevin and Trisha's funeral. It was devastating and really scary. Yeah. Because who could have wanted to do this? Yeah. A few days later, a man came forward to the police. His name was Adam Hipp and something really big was weighing on his conscience.

Over the course of three hours, he told police that several years ago Bart had approached him. Several years ago? Several years ago Bart had approached him and asked if he would murder his whole family.

When he was like 16 years old? No, so Bart, you know, Bart's about to graduate college. Yeah, so he's like 22. Uh-huh. Several years ago. I would say two or three. All right. That's really more like a few, but.

The outrage here is how old Bart was. Bart had it all planned out. He said, come to my house, take one of our guns, kill my whole family as we walk in the door. And then at the very end, just to fool the police, I want you to shoot me in the arm. Oh, my gosh. So this guy wouldn't do it, but somebody did. Police were like, whoa. Holy sexy times.

Because Bart was shot in the arm, right? Of course. Holy crap. The weird thing was, I mean, Kent was shot in the shoulder, but you know. Yeah. Anyway, so they're like, Bart is so much more than just a college dropout. He's behind this whole thing. All because he's pissed that his parents named him Bart.

They named him Thomas. This is not on them. So they go to Bart and they're like, Bart, buddy, could you please take us to your house? Walk us through what happened on the night of the shooting and bart is like absolutely i'd be happy to help so they go and bart's like not remembering much of anything and the police were like this is weird you're being you're being kind of evasive and you're supposedly the victim of this crime. This doesn't seem right.

No, I agree that that's super sketch. But what were they expecting to have seen? He wasn't in the house. He was the last person in the house, but he should, yeah. I get what you're saying. It's weird for him to be defensive when he's a victim. Well, and not really defensive, just like not really remembering hardly anything at all.

But again, I'm with you. That doesn't necessarily mean anything. Yeah. And if you need more evidence, we'll get to it. By this point, Kent was aware that police considered Bart a suspect.

But he was like, that's just impossible. My son would never do this. But police were pretty sure. And they started thinking, if Bart approached his friend Adam with this plot a few years ago, not several, then maybe he took the same approach more recently. If we look at his current friend group, will we find the gunman? Probably.

Or like put up a billboard that says, has anyone attempted to solicit murder? Call us now. Give us a call. They immediately zeroed in on two friends, Chris Brashear and Stephen Champagne champagne they both worked with bart at a country club police asked stephen champagne worked at a country club i know doesn't it seems like he should be a member of the country club police asked chris and stephen to provide scent samples

which of what i assume it's like here take this maxi pad rub it under your armpit and there we go there's your scent sample i don't know what's a scent sample listen all i can tell you is what 48 hours told me what is it well seriously don't you think that like they take cotton swabs and swab all the stinky parts of your body and then they give it to the blood how are the sneaky if you don't if you are an adult woman and you don't know what stinks on you i can't help you no so they take the samples give it to the bloodhound bloodhounds like and then they compare that to the evidence collected from the crime scene got it do you got it it's so weird i've never heard of that. Sure enough, the dogs caught Chris Brashear's scent.

It was on one of the drawers that had been opened up in the Whitaker home. How much time has passed? Um, I don't think much. But then fucking Kent and Bart are fully healed by now. Well, they really just had glancing glows. I'm sorry, and they're still picking up scents in the house? I'm questioning this science. Would it help you to know that his scent was also found on the murder weapon?

I don't know. Does that help? I guess. I just don't know about this scent science. Okay. Is there something better than a scent? Are you going to give me some DNA or some fingerprints? They also did lick samples.

And that's when, of course, a police officer licks you. And then licks the murder one. And they're like, yes, tastes the same. Like peanut butter and chocolate goes together we've got our guy so police were like all right chris we know it's you but chris was like no no way no scent science what the hell is that exactly what the fuck is scent science i like you ch, Chris. Oh, boy. Just kidding. I'm pretty sure you're a murderer.

Police are like, uh-huh. Sure. Okay, Chris. Thank you very much. This was not tough to crack. But then, one night, as police were continuing to investigate the case, and I think this, by this point, it's like seven months after the murder. All right. They still picking up scents? Still sniffing those drawers.

Oh, that sounds terrible. That poor bloodhound. Better than licking those drawers. Bart told his dad, see ya, I'm going out tonight. I'm going to a club. I'll see you tomorrow. But tomorrow came and Bart did not come back. In fact, he never came back.

Bart ran away. Police were like, fuck. Bart ran away. Police were like, fuck. So Officer Marshall Slott was the guy who was in a slot. Not slut. I still think Slott's a pretty bad last name. I've got the last name Pitts.

I'm not making fun of anybody. No, I think it's a funny last name, Slott. So they interviewed him for 48 hours. Like, hey, Slott, get in here. slot so they interviewed him for 48 hours like hey slot they call him the slot machine officer slot was pretty angry he felt like he'd let bart get away yeah yeah it's not really his fault no it, it's not. It's not. I think it was one of those things where they kind of figured, okay, we know pretty well for sure what's going on here, but they didn't have enough.

Enough, yeah. Yeah. So he leaned even harder on Bart's friends. Did he lean harder on the slot? Look at you. You're so proud of yourself. It's just a funny last name. So he talked to Bart's friend, Stephen Champagne.

And finally, Stephen cracked. The bottle popped. Bubbled over. I'm really disappointed he didn't try and do a champagne pun there. You know, it honestly did not even occur to me. Really? Because the only thing that occurred to me about his last name was

like, man, he really got involved in something seedy here. But I mean, there's no joke there. It's just just classy name. Not a very classy yes but finally steven cracked he was like i can't take it anymore i was the getaway driver chris was the shooter and bart set the whole thing up yeah steven gave them more than just a confession he showed police the exact spot over a bridge where he and Chris

had thrown a ton of evidence. Ammunition, the chisel they used to get into the gun safe, the two burner phones that Bart had bought them. It was all in a neat little bag. And police found it. Well, that's fucking dumb. Yeah, I agree.

Why do you bag it up so it's all together? I mean, why do you just ask your friends to go murder your entire family? I mean, none of this is good. That might be the problem. You're right. I'd be looking at the wrong problem. So police arrested Chris and Steven, obviously. But where the hell was Bart?

Turns out he was in Mexico. Cerralvo, Mexico, which is about 40 miles south of the border. And he was doing all right. He had a new name, Rudy Rios. He had $7,000 in cash, stolen from his father. And he could speak a little Spanish, so he rented an apartment. To the locals, Rudy didn't seem to have a care in the world. He went out drinking, he charmed the ladies, and had a good old time.

He even went to church. Really? Yes, which to me is like, okay, some people, it must just be about the social aspect or like a habit. Because why the hell are you going to church? Yeah.

Maybe Rudy Rios was starting over. I don't think so. Getting right with God. That's where he met Cindy Lou Salinas. She was immediately impressed by him. I'm sorry, Cindy Lou who? Salinas. That was a grunge joke.

Oh, shit. Okay, that was a grinch oh okay that's pretty good she was no more than two oh that's gross no she was more than two that's what I'm here for. So the two of them start dating. And soon her dad offered Rudy a job at his furniture store. Rudy was a good hard worker. The Salinas family loved him. And how could you not? Poor Rudy was an only child.

His mother was a prostitute who had never loved him. Oh my gosh, he's really selling the sob story. And you know what? As a result, he didn't love her either. His family didn't love him. They ignored him. Poor, poor Rudy. didn't love him.

They ignored him. Poor, poor Rudy. For more than a year, Bart lived in Mexico as Rudy. 14 months. Oh my gosh. Kent was devastated. I can't believe he'd stay in one place for that long.

Yeah, pretty dumb, huh? Yeah. Guessing he gets cut. Yep. Kent was devastated. He had defended his son for a really long time, but he was like, okay, innocent people don't run away. So Kent, and I love this guy, he seems like the sweetest, best human being. He'd finally started to wrap his head around the fact that Bart did this.

Bart did this, yeah. Meanwhile, police are still angry. And then they got a phone call. It was from Rudy Rios. The real Rudy Rios. He said, I can tell you exactly where Bart Whitaker is because I helped him get there. Turns out Bart and Rudy worked together at a restaurant in Houston.

And Bart came to Rudy one day and was like, oh man, police are really breathing down my neck. You know, so Rudy. And so Rudy pieced together what he meant by that and was like, well, if you ever need help, let me know. I've got family in Mexico. And Bart said, yeah, that sounds good. Could we do that, like, right now? So Bart paid

Rudy $3,000 to take him down to Cerralvo. But then, Rudy started seeing stuff on TV and in the news about a $10,000 reward for information about the... He's like, hmm, man, I could have $10,000. Yeah,

like $13,000 off this whole thing. So he told police, if there's a reward, about this like man i could have ten thousand dollars yeah like thirteen thousand dollars off this whole thing so he told police if there's a reward you know i don't care i'll turn his ass in but i am so with you though again telling people how to commit crimes you don't stay in the same no no you have to assume that the shitty person who helped you get out of trouble for setting up yeah it's probably gonna turn on you yeah so bart was found immediately yeah obviously because he stayed right where he was put well yeah he had a girlfriend and a job i can't believe he got a job so they send him back to texas police and prosecutors were like sweet fred felchman is the first assistant district attorney

for ford county this dude is a character he has this sweet handlebar white mustache. He looks like an old-timey Texas sheriff. Dude loves justice. Excellent. Texas style. Pretty quickly, he starts building his case. I'm including a quote from him from 48 Hours because I don't love this, but I do love this. Okay.

Here's what he said. There's a term they use in psycholingo, psychobabble, of sociopath. In other words, a person who knows he's doing something wrong but really doesn't care. The old time Texas thing was that he was just a mean son of a bitch, okay? So, not super into psychology. Yeah, clearly not. But knows a son of a bitch. So Fred went after Bart.

In his mind, it was simple. This was a multiple murder. Bart deserved the death penalty. And that's exactly what he did. Bart, I'm sorry. You've got, um. I'm sorry. You've got Kleenex stuck to your eye. It was the weirdest thing. It was stuck to your eyelashes. Your poor watery eyes.

You've got that Kleenex balled up like it's a tampon let me get you a new one here you go so fred's like we're getting the death penalty bart's defense attorney randy mcdonald had a very tough job uh yeah because bart clearly did this. I mean, there was like tons of witnesses, tons of evidence. You have confessions. Dude ran away to Mexico. Yeah, doesn't look right. Duh, duh. For sure he did this.

So at trial, Randy took a sort of unique approach. He basically conceded that Bart did the crime. So the defense all came down to this. Convincing the jury that Bart shouldn't be sentenced to death. That was like the only thing. He went like Clarence Darrow. Yeah. That's what Clarence Darrow did and Leopold and Loeb.

Clarence also went strong into psychology and background but here's the interesting thing i think i think bart probably had a pretty good upbringing and a pretty good life and so there was like i imagine if there was anything they could point to like oh he was abused i feel like for sure they would have brought it up yeah but i think dude uh just a screw loose was just a mean son of a bitch okay now i hate to say that because of trisha i don't mean that in the literal sense anyway okay yeah by this point bart didn't have hardly anybody in his corner except for his dad. Kent became Bart's biggest defender. Still staying by his, well, I mean, it's your kid.

Yeah. I mean, it's unbelievable. The thing he kept saying over and over again was, I do not want the state to kill the only other member of my family. So true. Yeah. to kill the only other member of my family. Oh,

so true. Yeah. And again, super religious guy. And he kept coming down to this thing of like, I want my son to get to the point where he feels remorse and where he can really ask God for forgiveness. I'm surprised they would seek the death penalty against his wishes. You know,

I am too. Because he's a victim yeah yeah but we'll get more yeah into it but yeah i again you know i'm not into the death penalty yeah but but yeah i would think that having the lone surviving victim in all this saying, please don't put him to death. I would think that would make an impact. Yeah, I would think so. Kent's position was basically this.

Don't set my son free, but don't kill him either. He needs time to change as a person. He needs time to seek forgiveness from god but the prosecution was like sorry kent this is texas we heart the death penalty yeah i think there's bumper stickers there that say this trial took place three years after the crime and the prosecution put on a hell of a show. They had forensic evidence.

They had witnesses. Boy, oh boy, did they have witnesses. Their star witness was Stephen Champagne, the getaway driver. He told the jury that it all came down to money. About two months before the murders, Bart came to him and Chris and said, hey, if my whole family dies,

I'm going to inherit a lot of money. In fact, I'll be the sole beneficiary of a million dollar insurance policy. You guys help me kill my family and I'll give you a cut. How much?

I don't know. It was all pretty damning. A million dollars is not that much money like okay you know what you and dp feel the same way on this because my dad was like million dollars you know yeah yeah i think these i don't know yeah i don't know i think these guys were idiots they were like 20 something yeah that's true i mean but you're right it's just not that much money yeah and to kill a whole family yeah exactly horrible thing to do yeah

steven told the jury the whole story and it was pretty awful yeah on cross-examination the defense basically said wow you're kind of a shitty person, huh? And Stephen said, the way that I looked at it was they weren't human. It's kind of funny. So from watching his testimony, I kind of, I don't know, I just appreciated that he just kind of came out with it and was like

was like yep I I did what I did it was for money I didn't think of them as humans yeah the prosecution's case

was even better than you think it is because in the course of their investigation they found that Bart had tried to kill his family at least three different times holy shit what is wrong with bart using different sets of friends yeah bart's to use some psycho babble a sociopath so turns out that in 2000, Bart asked his two college roommates if they would kill his family.

So they both testified. And they told him, yes, they would do it. Okay, this, we're getting to the craziest part of this to me. So he comes to them with this idea. They're both like, yeah, sure. So he comes to them with this idea. They're both like, yeah, sure. The two guys got to the house, went to a window that Bart had told them, I guess, would be open or would be easy to open.

But as soon as one of them tried to open it, an alarm went off. So they ran off and they didn't go through with it. Oh, my gosh. Two months later. Who the fuck are these friends? OK, again, this is the craziest story because we're going to go through a few of these friends. They are all, this is the scariest thing to me. They're like in their little khaki pants.

They've got their little button ups. They've got the doughy face of a 22 year old. Oh my gosh. I mean, they just look to me, totally normal guys. Yeah. But they were convinced, oh yeah, let's kill a whole family. One of these guys was a national merit scholar. Oh, my gosh. I assume none of them had criminal records because I feel like that would have been brought up. guys from wealthy families who had no reason to do this,

but were somehow convinced that, yeah, this is a great idea. That is nuts. So two months later, Bart approached Adam Hipp. He was the guy who came forward after the Whitakers were shot and were like, oh, my God, got some stories about Bart. So Adam told his story in court, and he said, yeah, Bart approached me about killing his family. And I said yes, that I would do it.

But it never progressed beyond talking. Then Bart came up with another plan. So now we're in 2001, and somehow a college acquaintance named Jennifer Jaffet found out about what Bart was plotting. So she actually went up to him and she said, are you really going to let this happen? She told the jury that Bart took her in a big hug and whispered in her ear, everything's going to be OK. But she was like, no. So she actually called the police she did yes

she called the police i believe this was in 2001 police took it seriously they went to tricia and kent they said we've got this complaint someone says that your son is plotting to have you your whole family killed so they were like well that's insane so they called bart and bart was like what no obviously this is some big misunderstanding some big mix-up bitches be crazy you know like that's not happening so like you do you know kent and trisha just thought it was some crazy thing that had been totally misunderstood. Oh, my God. Yes.

So, again, in this episode, I wish I'd written down his exact quote. But Kent was just like, look, I know it makes me sound stupid that we didn't take this seriously. But it just didn't seem yeah possible yeah at all and even when it happened you know a few years later it still didn't seem possible oh my gosh the trial lasted one week the jury went into deliberation and they stayed there for two whole hours guess what they found? Guilty. Yeah, no one was surprised. Yeah.

The real mystery, obviously, was what would happen in the punishment phase. Yeah. So, Kent, of course, took the stand, and he told the jury he didn't want his son put to death, and neither would Tricia. Then, Bart took the stand he did yeah i mean this was this gets pretty nuts he told them i am 100 guilty i put the plan in motion and if i hadn't done that none of this would have happened i'm gonna read you a transcript defense, do you feel any remorse for this? Bart, yes, sir, I do. Defense attorney, who do you feel remorse for? Bart, I feel remorse for everyone involved, starting with my dad, my mom, my brother, my whole fam. So he starts to say family, doesn't even get the word out, stops.

And then he says, everyone I've ever met in my life, I feel sorry for having come in contact with me. Ooh. I know. So then the defense attorney says, can you answer the question, why? And Bart basically says no. But then he eventually kind of says that he always felt like his family's love for him was conditional and that he could never meet their expectations. Bart's attorney then asked, do you have any plans or desires to kill anyone else? And Bart said, no.

The only people I've ever hated were my parents and my brother. Holy shit. So when he said that in court, the camera panned to Kent. Yeah. And you just see him flinch. Yeah. The prosecutor lit into him oh they gave me like chills i know i hate that the only people i've ever hated are my parents and my brother because i think that was a big thing about do we give him the death penalty the the question was

will he kill again and so they're trying to say oh no don't worry he was only a threat to his family and oh my gosh yeah yeah oh so the prosecutor stands up and he's like how can you say that your parents had conditional love for you. All your mom ever talked about was you and Kevin. She loved you. How could you be so disconnected from reality? So Fred launched into this theory that was essentially this. You are irrational. You kill people for no reason.

This could absolutely happen again. Therefore, we must kill you to stop that. But Bart said he was a different person back then. Okay, so things got super tense. Here's another transcript. Bart, do you believe a person can't be sorry for the things they did? Prosecutor, no. I think they can be, Mr. Whitaker, but i don't think you are i think you're sorry you got caught and now you're trying to figure out how to get out of the death penalty might be true the jury deliberated for 10 hours what do you think they found i think it would be

really hard to sentence him to death when his father sat up there and asked them not to. So I think they did not sentence him to death. They did. Wow. I know. I'm with you. Oh, my gosh. But at the same time, if you did the dad testify before Bart did?

That's how they showed it in the 48 Hours episode. I don't know though. So I feel like if you see, what's the dad's name? Kent? Yeah, Kent. You see Kent's testimony. He's my son. Please don't end his life. I don't want that. Trish wouldn't want that. And then you see Bart

go up there and say the only people I've ever hated are my parents and my brother you might be like well that kid's a fucking monster yeah of course we put him to death yeah oh i don't know i yeah i to me if i were the juror i think i would have a very hard time sentencing someone to death when their parents sat there their parent their their victim. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the big key thing is like parent slash victim.

Yeah. Sat there and said, I do not want them put to death. So he was sentenced to death. He was sentenced to death. He appealed. And he, with the appeal,

he tried a little bit of everything. He said his attorney was ineffective. He said the death penalty was cruel and unusual. He said there was prosecutorial misconduct. But in 2017, the Court of Appeals dismissed his appeal. So, Bart took his case all the way to the Supreme Court! But they were like, no, we're busy. We're not going to hear this case. But they were like, no, we're busy. We're not going to hear this case.

So all of his appeals were exhausted. Ten years had passed. The whole time, Kent stayed by his side, lobbying to get his son off death row. But nothing worked. Bart was scheduled to die on February 22, 2018. A week before Bart's execution date, Kent tried one last time. He spoke to the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles.

He cried. He told them everything he'd ever said. He said, please don't kill the last member of my family. Then on February 20th, two days before the execution, the board said, okay, we don't want to execute him. Let's give him life without parole.

Wow. But that didn't completely stop things because you have to get the governor to weigh in. Oh, right. And the governor didn't say shit. Oh my gosh. So Kent and bart said their final goodbyes bart ate his last meal he was brought in to be strapped down and then less than an hour

before the execution governor greg abbott spared bart's life oh my gosh i feel like that's cruel and unusual just like uh yeah along to the last hour i don't understand how like that gets to the bottom of your to-do list either holy shit so he said that there were two big factors in his decision the fact that bart wasn't the one who pulled the trigger and that kent had lobbied so hard kent had said that if Texas put his son to death, he would be victimized all over again. Yeah. Bart said,

I am thankful for this decision. Not for me, but for my dad. Bart Whitaker remains in prison. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I cannot believe that it like got down to him about to be executed like that. It seems like that's more common than it should be where it's like a last minute call.

Oops. Don't do that. Yeah. Oh. So there you have it. DP strikes again. That was good. And what?

You got floaties in your tea there? Yeah, I think some tea leaves escaped from the tea bag. I was really disturbed. Oh, all right. Sorry. Are you going to read them once you finish it and see if, like, your death is coming? Oh, wow. Isn't that what they always...

I feel like... Impending doom doom have you ever had your palm red or no i never have i want to do it sometime let's go do it together let's go get our palms red you know what okay oh next week is our one year anniversary oh yeah what what should we do i don't know what should we do okay well you know me i always feel like food needs to be involved we're kind of cheating we're gonna have to do two one year anniversaries what do you mean

because it's our 52nd episode which means that it's but we put them out kind of fast in the beginning so we didn't release

our first episode until February oh come on it's kind of cheating well I guess we make our own fucking rules are you saying

two opportunities for cake is that what you're saying yeah that's what i'm saying then i'm on board then i'm on board yeah next week's gonna be big we're gonna oh shit what are we gonna do i don't know i am gonna come in a full ball gown oh good do you still have your prom dress oh probably somewhere yeah i don't have mine i don't think well, my mom's basement. I have probably like a wedding dress and a bridesmaid dress. I know.

Let's put on the bridesmaid dresses from every wedding we've ever been in. Layer them up. Oh, God, that would not be a good look. Do you go long to short or short to long? I mean, obviously your longest one goes underneath your oh i'm sorry obviously i guess it's the dumbest question i've ever asked i'm sorry i've never layered price made dresses before kr. Excuse me. I'm not up on the rules. Norman and I have a very classy household.

We constantly wear our finest gowns all at the same time for lunch on Tuesday. But no, what should we do? I don't know. Should we do like a special, hmm, I don't know if this is gonna work you know my fantasy about having okay you don't have to give me that crazy look like you're gonna hear some weird sexual thing it's concerned no so you know my fantasy about having an advice column oh yeah do you think this is enough notice if we put out stuff. Probably not. Probably not. Probably not.

Although I feel like. Well, we can do that for our second anniversary. For our anniversary in February, I mean. What food should we have? I think we should have cake. Okay. Or donuts. You mentioned donuts today.

No, we've had donuts before. That's not special enough. It's got to be cake. It's got to be cake. I'll bring a cake. You don't have to bring a cake. I'm going to bring a cake. I'll bring the cake, Kristen. Okay. Tell me i'll bring a cake you don't have to bring a cake i'm gonna bring a cake i'll bring the cake kristen okay tell me not to bring the cake i'll bring the cake

what if i also bring a cake fair enough i mean it's already gonna be too much cake with just the three of us yeah all right i don't know we'll do something fancy we'll do something special okay cool yeah cake and tbd do you think we could find anniversary themed lawsuits that'd probably be really tough yeah all of my ideas are fizzling really fast maybe kristen what you could do for us is you could go update us on all of your cases that hadn't ended yet when you covered them terrible there are so many

everything's fine that's the catch-all but everything's not fine. No. Yeah. Some of mine. I don't know. We'll think about it. We'll come up with something amazing.

And you guys better stay tuned. Yeah. Figure out what... If we figure it out. If next week we have no cake and no ball gowns, you'll know we really dropped the ball. Gown. What?

Never mind. What? You said, if we have no cake and no ball gowns, you'll know we really dropped the ball. And then I said, gown. I missed the timing there, I guess. That's why we're such a good duo. That's why we're going pro. By the way, guys, once again, we have charted in South Africa and charted for the first time in Nigeria.

I'm so excited. Man. When do we go on tour? To just Africa. Just Africa. Because clearly Africa is listening. Africa is where our diehard fans are. Thank you.

Thank you, Africa. Rest of the world, we're looking Jew. North America, where the hell are you? Be sure to tune in next week because we will have one hell of an anniversary special no to or at the very least there will be an episode and you might have to listen to us eat cake oh gross let's not do that to him uh so yeah join us on facebook instagram twitter send us an email if you uh if you're feeling jealous about that person we called out today okay yeah lgtcpodcast at

gmail.com that's also if you want advice on anything yes kristin would love to give it to you i don't give good advice i just love advice. And then be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

For this episode, I got my info from the 48 Hours episode, Sugar Land, Life or Death, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from an episode of On the Case with Paula Zahn, Crimefeed.com, and the Associated Press. For a full list of our sources, visit LGTCpodcast.com and the Associated Press. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.