Let's Go To Court! - 54: The So-Called Kayak Killer & the Girl Scout Camp Murders

Episode Date: February 6, 2019

Angelika Graswald and her fiance, Vincent Viafore, loved going on adventures. On a Sunday in April of 2015, they strapped two kayaks to the top of Vincent’s Jeep and headed for the Hudson River. They planned to kayak over to Pollepel Island, where they’d see the Bannerman Castle ruins. But there were a few big obstacles in their way. The water was cold. Their kayaks weren’t suited for the river. Vincent didn’t wear a life vest. On top of all that, the weather that evening was predicted to take a turn for the worst. On their way back across the river, Vincent’s kayak capsized. Later, Angelika’s statements to detectives had people asking whether this was a tragic accident or a calculated murder. Then Brandi tells us the heartbreaking story of three violent murders at an Oklahoma girl scout camp. In the summer of 1977, Doris Milner, 10, Lori Farmer, 8, and Michelle Guse, 9, shared a tent. Everything seemed normal on the night of June 12, but early the next morning, a camp counselor discovered a grizzly scene. The girls’ dead bodies had been piled together on a trail. The crime stunned and terrified the nation. Police soon captured a man named Gene Leroy Hart. But did they have the right guy? And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Murder by kayak?” episode of 20/20 “Woman pleads guilty in fiance’s kayak death on Hudson River,” New York Times “‘Who’s Miranda?’ Suspect in kayak killing didn’t understand her rights, lawyer says,” New York Times “A kayak trip on the Hudson, ending in death and an arrest,” New York Times “Murder charge for woman who said fiance’s kayak capsized in Hudson River,” New York Times “Woman convicted in fiance’s death entitled to portion of his life insurance,” CBS News In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Girl Scout Murders | June 13, 1977” by Tim Stanley, Tulsa World “Girl Scout murders in Oklahoma remain unsolved 40 years after tragedy” by Juliana Keeping and Brianna Bailey, The Oklahoman “Gene Leroy Hart Is Found Innocent In Sex Slayings of Three Girl Scouts” by Jim Bradshaw, The Washington Post “40 Years After 3 Girl Scouts Were Killed at Camp, Police Hope DNA Will Reveal Their Killer” by Jeff Truesdell and Christine Pelisek, People Magazine “The Troubling, Still-Unsolved Case of the 1977 Oklahoma Girl Scout Murders” by Cheryl Eddy, Gizmodo  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about the kayak killer. Hmm. Mystery. And I'll be talking about the Oklahoma Girl Scout camp murders.

Oh no! Yeah. That's rough. That's a rough one. I hope your murders were really lighthearted. Kristen. Yes. I'd like to welcome you to a new segment of the show that I like to call.

Kristen fucked up. Stuff Brandy fucked up on the last episode. Okay. I'm a lot more excited about this than I thought I'd be. First of all. Yes. I said during when I was talking about Nick's mother's victim impact statement during the Jesse James Hollywood trial. I said Nick's mom said that her life was devoid of joy with Nick in it. Definitely

meant without Nick in it. Oops. That's my bad. She wasn't the most fortunate person. And then also, I never fucking told you how much money Ben Markowitz Oh, Jesse James Hollywood.

Oh boy. It was like the last line of my notes i was like so and i specifically asked nick's life worth and then i never fucking said it yeah i guess yeah okay um shit jog my memory so it was he did all this to like erase a debt right so no so he was trying to jesse james Jesse James Holly was trying to get back at Ben. Oh, right, right, right. Because he owed the debt. Ryan Hoyt murdered Nick to erase his debt. Which was between $2,000 and $6,000.

That is correct. I'm going to say this all happened over, drum roll please, $600. $1,200. Ooh, now I get it. Fucking terrible. I'm teasing. I don't get it. That's awful.

Yeah, it's fucking terrible. I'm sorry that I didn't address that on our last episode. Or maybe I really was trying to stretch the anticipation. That was like the ultimate cliffhanger and you did a great job of it by making us wait a week. A whole week. Yes.

This has been Shit Brandy Fucked Up on the last episode. Thank you for joining us. Okay. Are you ready for this? I am. Do you know anything about the woman dubbed the kayak killer? I don't. Okay. Are you ready for this? I am. Do you know anything about the woman dubbed the kayak killer? I don't.

Okay. Here we go. I would like to point out that you told me your case involved a kayak this week, and then you sent me an emoji of a canoe. Listen, there are only so many options. a canoe listen there are only so many options like we do this thing to make sure we're not doing the same case where we text each other and like mine takes place at a summer camp mine involves a kayak whatever um without giving too many details away yeah and kristin said it she said it involved a kayak and then she sent me a canoe and then then you were a smartass, so I sent you a yacht emoji. The Titanic. So there. Okay.

Angelica. Angelica? Sorry. I don't know. Have a J-E-L-L-Y in the middle of it? She's from... Okay, so it looks... You know what?

I was so worried about mispronouncing her name and i got it wrong right off the start okay it looks to my eyes like angelica but it's angelica and okay i have not angelica i have a note i have a note to myself on how to pronounce it and what i'm realizing now is i have it written down wrong in my guide to myself. Okay, let me make a correction. Boy, here we go. This is why you tune in. Angelica.

Yeah, that's way better. Yeah. Angelica Graswald woke up on a Sunday in April of 2015 feeling pretty hungover. Actually, a lot hungover. And so did her fiancé, Vincent Viafor. Viafor? Viafor. I love them all.

Okay, great. They'd been partying together the night before, and they woke up feeling kind of crappy and headachy, but they had plans, and they wanted to stick to them. They wanted to go kayaking on the Hudson River and paddle over to Polipel Island so that they could see the Bannerman Castle ruins. Have you heard of this? Google it right now.

It's the coolest looking thing ever. It's this like old abandoned castle thing. How do you spell it? Bannerman, just like it sounds. B-A-N-N-E-R-M-A-N. Castle. Ooh. Isn't that the coolest?

That's super cool. It made me realize that Norma and I have the lamest dates ever. I mean, these two kayaked to those ruins. That's super cool. Well, I mean, we don't have any ruins to kayak to here, except maybe like a trap house. Listen, there's a place not far from my house that got blown out

when the meth went bad. Yeah, exactly. Norman and I could take a little hike over there. A little stroll to the trap house. I could throw out like a gingham tablecloth until we sit down with some cheese and a baguette. So nice.

So Angelica loved the Bannerman ruins. She thought the castle was so unexpected in New York. Yeah. And it kind of reminded her of where she grew up in Latvia. She was so excited to go on this adventure, and so was Vincent. By the way, some sources call him Vincent, Vinny, Vin-la-la-la, all kinds of stuff. So I just mix it up in here.

I love it. Okay, great. Great. That's just who they were. They loved being outdoorsy together and they were both friendly and fun. And Angelica says that's why they worked so well together. They'd both been married two times before. why they worked so well together they'd both been married two times before but when they met each other in 2013 they knew they were ready to try again they got engaged the following year

vince proposed at the hibachi grill oh like sorry threw her engaged her ring up in the air and she caught it in her mouth it's worse than that so it was a spontaneous proposal and he used a ring of onion from the grill yes which do you know how awkward that is i can't say onion ring because that gives the wrong impression we're talking about one of those yeah like from a little onion volcano yes yes i gotta say no not for me done for me no but back to their kayak trip that day vince strapped the kayaks to his jeep and they took off it wasn't their first time kayaking but it would be their first time kayaking at that particular spot spot but there was an issue or rather multiple issues whoa okay these particular kayaks weren't really suited for the waters they were about to go on they were more the type that do better in a lake and it was cold that day the water was like 48 degrees which is just yeah too fucking cold way too cold i'm feeling better about the fact that norman and i don't go out for dates so like i don't know five

six years ago zach and i hiked to the grand canyon and it was like fucking 120 degrees yes but at the bottom is the colorado river and it's always like 50 degrees because it's bottom fed from you know fucking up north somewhere and you guys couldn't see how high her arm went and so i was so hot that i just sat down in the river uh-huh and zach made me get out after like five minutes and i was like no no and he's like it's too cold you cannot sit in here and i was like no he like physically made me get out of the water wait is this how you got canyon toe or whatever you call it christine that is a story for another day no it's fine no um i was actually on the hike up well i assume it's because you got wet it's

because i got my shoes wet but it was not in the Colorado River. It was from a hose at a watering point. Okay. Sorry. Are you not wanting to? No, it's fine. No, I doused my, it was even hotter on the hike up. Okay.

Hotter than 120? It was 127 degrees in the shade. God, no. But it's a dry heat, Kristen. Oh, I'm sorry sorry that sounds wonderful and so there's like this place where everybody stops and eats their lunch on the hike up right and so we stopped and there was like this hose that everybody was like wetting themselves down with and so i did it only i didn't like lean far enough over when I did it. So I got my shoes totally soaked and I didn't realize that I had done it. And then I hiked miles in soaking wet shoes and gave myself what is called Canyon toe, which sounds disgusting.

And in fact, you actually form blisters under your toenails who even knew that was fucking possible i did not know that it's disgusting yeah that sounds terrible it was terrible you guys have plans to go back or not so much i think i would totally do it again and not but not in july yeah that was the big mistake doing it when it was that hot oh god that sounds absolutely horrible yeah it's beautiful though i'm sure it is i don't know that i would appreciate the beauty in that heat um so okay complete opposite situation they have these kind of crappy kayaks yeah not crappy but not good for the hudson river right and it's 48 degrees in the water. Plus, there was a storm headed their way. Was the storm a-brewin'? You know what?

That's what I had in my notes, but I changed it because I thought it sounded too dorky. Storm's a-brewin'. To make matters worse, when it came time to get into the water, Vince didn't bother with a life jacket. Or a wetsuit. Oh. Yeah. did angelica put on did she put on a wetsuit and a life jacket i don't know that she had on a wetsuit i know that she had on a life jacket though at least i assume because they keep talking about how he didn't yeah so i assume she had yeah so they kayaked over to the island, drank a few beers, took some pics.

And then when the sun started to go down, they were like, ooh, crap, we've got to head back. Night kayaking back? Here's what I'm assuming. I'm assuming when they took off, it wasn't like night, but it was like they kind of had too much fun maybe. And all of a sudden it starts, the sun starts to go down. They're like, ooh, shit, we should have taken off like an hour ago oh my god granted that's alarming i have no idea how long it takes to do this but yeah okay so bad stuff they get into the kayaks go out into the water and angelica says that the water was officially choppy it was bad it It lapped up into Vince's kayak

and eventually overtook him. His kayak flipped over into the water and he was just plunged into this icy cold water. Oh, God. Vince shouted, Call 911. So, Angelica did. And here's part of the call.

I'm debating on what to say right now. This is obviously not part of the call i i'm debating on what to say right now this is obviously not part of the call she has an accent no no that's not at all i thought that's what you're gonna say i mean she does have an accent but um okay i'm just gonna give you my initial reaction when i heard this call okay on 2020 by the way 2020 did a great episode about this and the new york times covered the shit out of this okay so 2020 played some of the 9-1-1 call my immediate reaction was that it sounded fake okay because she sounds kind of almost like whiny. Oh. So here's what she says. Angelica. But I don't see him. Oh, my God.

Dispatcher. Can you see the kayak still? Angelica. No, the kayak went underwater. Oh, my God. Dispatcher. We've got a boat in the water coming down to you, okay? Angelica.

The water is very cold. I'm afraid he's... Oh, my God. Oh, no. God. Oh no. That does sound bad. Now, who knows how I would react to this? Exactly. I have no idea.

I'm just throwing this out there because there's this debate. Over how authentic this 911 call is. There's this debate over, is there foul play in this? Is there not? I'm just telling you my immediate reaction from hearing that 911 call was, sounds a little off. Yeah, I agree. Okay. From my impression of her.

From your interpretation of it. So it goes on for a little bit and she tells the dispatcher that they need someone to come out quickly. And she thinks that Vince has drowned. Then the call ends. Angelica says at that point her kayak had capsized. Pretty soon a rescue boat arrives and they pull Angelica out of the water. They look everywhere for Vince. Couldn't find him. It was really sad but pretty obvious he had drowned yeah to hear angelica tell it this was a horrible accident but that wasn't how a lot of other people saw it really okay so here okay here we go this is this is a weird case i feel so many different ways okay um no you know what i don't feel so many

different ways i just have a strong opinion and i kind of want to just throw it out there and let people decide for themselves. Okay. But I'm very bossy, and I like to tell people what to think, so I'm just fighting a lot of things right now. Okay, excellent. So people observed Angelica in the days after Vince died, they were like she's acting kind of weird. Vince's mom noticed right away that she wasn't crying much.

She thought that was pretty strange. Then within a few days of Vince's death, Angelica posted a video to Facebook of herself doing a cartwheel. What? Okay, give me your reaction. Like, are...

No! She's doing cartwheels? A cartwheel, Brandy. But it was very jubilant, I gotta say. Yeah, fuck off. That is, I don't care who you are. You don't, what excuse does she have for doing cartwheels are you not allowed would have wanted me to do cartwheels is that his name fence yeah

i don't know i how many days after three days after it was not many it was like a few days it was not many days you're not allowed to do one okay days. You're not allowed to do one. Okay. No! No, you're not allowed to do one cartwheel. I got one more for you. Okay. You ready? Okay. Then within a few days of Vince's death,

there was a memorial service for him at a bar and Angelica sang karaoke. At a memorial service? It was at a bar. She sang Hotel California. Okay, so people... No, okay, let me... Okay, you react. You react first.

Were other people singing karaoke? That's what I want to know, but none of these articles say, which I think... That changes my opinion a lot. That's huge. It is. It's a huge factor. I'm just gonna say my thing okay I think this was probably an accident I think maybe she just acted a little weird yeah here cartwheels Kristen yeah it's super weird I would never do that I would never do that but is she was she a Latvian gymnast?

I just think like she said later. Maybe that's just how she like centers herself. She said later that she just, she's not the type that likes to cry in public. She's not, that's just not her personality. But I agree with you. The karaoke thing. Yeah, I need to know. Is everyone else doing karaoke? Yeah, was his fucking brother standing there doing karaoke too like everyone includes the song and i'm thinking

i don't know what that song yeah maybe it's his favorite song welcome to the hotel i know the song i didn't mean i didn't know the song it's a lovely place christy i just I feel like people made a lot of those things. And I, you know, that's weird, but. Yeah, maybe it just fit her vocal range. Thank you, Brandy. No problem. I'm still, like, I'd like it cleared up if she was, had formerly, you know, been on the Latvian gymnastics team or something. Okay, at what point do you age out of that sort of thing? 16? Hmm. formerly, you know, been on the Latvian gymnastics team or something. Okay.

At what point do you age out of that sort of thing? 16. Hmm. She came to the United States to be a nanny at 20. So maybe she was a gymnast. She could have been. Then she's like, I'm done with that. Now I'm going to be a nanny in Connecticut.

Boom. Yeah. Now I'm in the U.S. Yep. I don't know. Are you ready for more not so great stuff the U.S. Yep. I don't know. Are you ready for more not-so-great stuff? Yes. Okay. So, ten days after Vince disappeared, she went to the Bannerman's Ruins with a wreath of artificial flowers attached to a life preserver.

She wanted to leave them there as a tribute to Vince. Detectives were with her her because I think at this point everyone was kind of like, this is weird. And apparently while she was there she told them something totally nuts. What? She said

she'd wanted Vince to drown. What? She says that that evening she'd pulled the plug on his kayak so that it would fill up with water. And she even took off like this little ring thing that keeps the two different sections of the paddle together. What? That's what they say she said, but there was no cameras, nothing recording it. So they're like, okay, let's, we'd love to hear more of this cool story but we want to take you someplace more comfortable

like an interrogation room yes by the way of course um angelica later said that that whole conversation never took place but at any rate they get her to the interrogation. How many people say it did? You know, I want to say, for some reason, and this could be totally wrong, I want to say there were three detectives with her at Bannerman Island, at the Bannerman Castle ruins. I don't know that they were all there when this was happening. I think it's bullshit.

I just can't understand under what circumstances she would fucking say that. I also don't understand why you wouldn't be recording stuff. Yeah, I don't think that makes any sense. Yeah. I'm not buying this one. Okay. So. I'm still not convinced that it would.

Cartwheels are really way in for me. Yeah, you're not a fan of the cartwheels. Not at all, but i don't believe that she said that okay same by the way oh pretty convenient the things that you can say someone said when you have no evidence of it yes yeah and again this is like i think we're in like 2015 yeah why wouldn't you've got your supposedly your prime murder suspect why wouldn't you be recording everything yeah so they get angelica into that interrogation room and if that first story was true then it changes when she's in the interrogation room

here we go detective you watched him drown i know it's difficult i know angelica no i didn't just watch him drown i tried to do something about it detective now did you really want to save him angelica yeah somehow if he did not say call 911, I would have fucking paddled the shit out of myself and got to him somehow. By the way, fucking and shit, they bleeped it on 2020. I'm just guessing what curse words were in there. Oh, yeah.

Then things got a little darker, and she admitted that she was sort of relieved by Vince's death. What? Yeah. That's odd. Yeah, I'm not saying this isn't weird. Detective, when you watched him in the water,

was a part of you saying, my worries are going away now? Angelica. Yeah. Detective. And I'm free? Angelica. Yeah. Detective. And I'm free? Angelica. Yeah.

Detective. That's kind of a coercive technique there. Detective. And you were almost... Angelica. Euphoric? Detective. Euphoric that he was going to be gone.

Angelica, I just, I was... Detective. You felt that way? Angel to be gone. Angelica, I just, I was... Detective, you felt that way? Angelica, yes. I still do. What? Okay, what worries? Where's the backstory? What do they got going on?

Are they in crazy debt? Is he dying of cancer? I need more. Well, it's one of my cases. So what do you think it was? I don't know. It was weird sex stuff. Oh, my God.

They were in a weird sex stuff. So what she. Oh, God. Oh, my God. Norm, we were just shouting about weird sex stuff. Weird sex stuff. And then you come through the door on cue. What kind of weird sex stuff?

Hang on. No, Kirsten, tell me the weird sex stuff now. Oh, my God. I just left it hanging there in the script. I didn't even get into it until later. Okay, I'm going to tell you now. What? So the weird sex stuff was that he was, like, super into porn,

super into threesomes, and he kept, like, basically he wanted all this stuff. She was like, I'm not into it. I into threesomes. And he kept like, basically, he wanted all this stuff. She was like, I'm not into it. I'm not into it. And apparently he started threatening her like, I'm going to call off the engagement unless you're willing to do this stuff. That's what she tells the detective. So, you know, she kind of says, I was sick of all that.

I didn't like it. And I was kind of relieved.. I didn't like it. No. Now I don't have to deal with that anymore. I was kind of relieved. Yeah. Whew. Yeah. Whew. Okay. So while she's being interrogated,

police officers searched her and Vince's apartment. And they found that one of his guns was missing. So now we're three hours into the interrogation. Another detective walks in. The bad cop, if you will. And he's like, We know you fucking did it, Angelica! Then he slams the table.

No, he's like, When did you take the ring off the paddle? And she's like, I didn't do that. And he goes, Well, you killed him. And she says, No, I didn't't kill him now we're four hours in they bring her coffee and pizza and a cigarette and they leave her alone in there trifecta everything you could ever want they leave her alone in there for a while by the way

this interrogation lasts 11 hours at one point she starts doing hopscotch in the interrogation room what at another point she's doing yoga poses oh my god all the poses and that lens okay as weird as that is uh-huh makes the cartwheel from earlier less weird that's a really good point yeah if this is what she's doing to like calm herself in an interrogation room yeah it makes the cartwheel less weird okay i did not even put that together what i thought because you know early in the 2020 episode they're showing like footage of her downward dogging it in an interrogation room and i was like she fucking did it she is cold as ice but then when i

hear okay you're in there for 11 hours yeah with pizza and a cigarette yeah you know who knows what they'd catch me doing yeah yeah i don't think anybody has any idea how they'd react in those circumstances i can tell you for sure i wouldn't do a cartwheel because I'm incapable. Hurt myself many times trying that. They ask her some more questions about her relationship with Vince. And that's when she gets into the thing about him being really pushy and demanding in bed and just wanting stuff from her that she didn't want to do. Meanwhile, the police discover that she's a beneficiary on Vince's life insurance policy. Mm.

And he had a pretty big one. So I believe she had like a 45% stake in it, and that entitled her to just under $500,000. Wow. I know. She tried to change. No kidding. And he'd taken that policy out six months earlier. Was there like a double indemnity clause on it where she gets

double if he dies in an accident? I don't believe so. I'm going to be honest. I've never heard that term before. It's a real thing. I believe it. Not questioning you. Just feeling bad about myself. So late in the evening, she told detectives

that when Vince was drowning, she felt like she was torn in two. Angels and demons. She said she has this bad side and it was telling her to just let it happen. But she also had the good side telling her to save him. But she let the bad side win out because

of how Vince had been treating her lately. Now they're six hours in and one of the detectives said, You killed Vinny, right? Angelica, you're the one telling me. Detective, no, I'm asking you the question. Angelica, you want me to admit it. Detective, I want you to tell me the truth. Angelica, I am telling you the truth

detective and what is the answer to that question angelica i didn't want him to detective angelica what is the true answer to that question angelica all, I'll give you the fucking statement. Detective. What is it? Angelica. I wanted him dead, and now he's gone, and I'm okay with it. I'm okay with that. That's, I, well, I mean, that's probably the true answer. I mean, that still doesn't mean she murdered him.

No, that was a confession. That's not a confession. Brandy. Brandy, the police say it's a confession. I don't think that's a confession at all. Do you think that's a confession? No. No. No, I don't.

It's not at all. I think it's bad. I think it's bad, too. But I think it says more about the guilt that she carries. Yeah. The fact that he died and she feels okay about it. Which, I'm sorry, but you can feel okay about it. Yeah.

You know, you can have complicated feelings if you're not in a good relationship with somebody and something terrible happens. Yeah, if your fiancé's forcing you into threesomes that you don't want and then he dies and you're like, oh my God, how terrible, I lost my fiancé. But also, I guess I don't have to have those gross threesomes anymore. Yay! Like, I think that's realistic. Yeah, yeah. So, they're like, great, we got a confession.

No! I don't think so either. I don't think so either. Now we're 30 days out from the evening Vinny went missing. It's May of 2015. The weather changed on the Hudson. And I think, if I'm not mistaken, this happened like right by West Point when they were having their graduation ceremony. Oh, God, his body folded? Yeah, bummer. Is that what you want? They found him about a mile from the island.

His body didn't hold a whole lot of clues, but it didn't have a gunshot. So there goes that theory that she took one of his guns and shot him. At this point, a grand jury indicted Angelica with murder in the second degree and manslaughter in the second degree. Did they find the kayak? Um. I don't know. But don't kayaks float? I mean, surely.

Not if it's got a hole shot in it shot in it yeah the theory could be that she shot him obviously that didn't happen but if she took the gun she could have shot the kayak and sunk it good grief with the choppy waters and all that stuff i'm just saying okay okay they none of the articles or anything I read mentioned that. Okay. Yet we don't know where the kayak is. We might. We might.

Kristen doesn't know where the kayak is. That's accurate. The prosecutor told the press that Angelica killed Vinny by removing that ring from his paddle and the plug from his boat. I saw somewhere else that at one point officers were saying that she'd like taken the paddle away from him as he was drowning. Yeah. Yeah. Later, Angelica was asked about what she'd said in that interrogation room. And she was like, look, I was worn down. about what she'd said in that interrogation room.

And she was like, look, I was worn down. They were asking me the same questions over and over and over again. And eventually I just told them what they wanted to hear. I was at my breaking point. She said, when I walked into that interrogation room, I had no idea that I was like this big suspect. They told me it would be like a therapy session. Wow.

Which I guess she just believed. Yeah, I mean, that's naive. That's, yeah, super naive. And as for her weird behavior after he died, she said she was just kind of putting on a happy front. She was stunned by the charges and traumatized by all the media coverage. People were calling her the kayak killer. She said, I was just at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Bottom line, I was in danger too, just as much as he was. I just happened to survive and now I'm guilty. Yeah, I mean, that's true. I just happened to survive, and now I'm guilty? Yeah. I mean, that's true. Angelica pled not guilty to second-degree murder and not guilty to second-degree manslaughter. But Vincent's family was convinced that she did it. Really?

Mm-hmm. Do they already have, like, a... Do they not like her to begin with? I don't know. But like they, to this day, believe she did it. Wow. His sister, Laura Rice, said that Vincent and Angelica fought a lot and that Angelica had a temper. Laura didn't know about all the sex stuff, obviously.

But she said that she felt like Vince was close to ending the relationship. But she said that she felt like Vince was close to ending the relationship. She said he was frustrated with Angelica because she wasn't working and he had to support both of them financially. I could see that. So the prosecution starts gearing up for trial and they are like, all right, let's run some tests. So they went out, got the make and model of that kayak. Unless they used the actual kayak, which found i don't know they took out the plug and they went into the water just waiting to capsize and it didn't nope oh so they could not get that and then they start making waves and it still doesn't capsize. And then they, you know, make the hole even bigger.

No, so it turns out this plug is really small. It's like half an inch. Yeah. And it's on top of the boat. And so like on 2020, they did their own test too. So they had a guy with like a bucket of water and they're like, he's like, okay, check this out. So he fills up the bucket with water and tries to pour it into that hole. And even when you're trying to get water into that hole, not that much is going to get in.

But if you have waves coming at you, a ton of water is going to get in the seat where you're sitting. So the whole thing was like, that's how you capsize. I mean, having that little plug out probably isn't great but it's not gonna be that by itself is not gonna be enough yeah no yeah if anything so the prosecution is like well shit then they start looking at other factors like the fact fact that Vincent wasn't wearing a life vest or a wetsuit. Yeah. And it was fucking cold.

And it was very choppy, as we heard earlier. And he'd been drinking. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, like, all this stuff is like, ugh. And they're fucking rowing out of there at night. I'm sorry. That was my kayak.

The demonstration. It looked more like a flag team routine that you were doing. I feel like you wouldn't get anywhere quickly in a kayak with those moves. So then they start looking at this confession again, and they're like, she didn't really. Yeah, it's not a confession. Yeah, she didn't really directly confess. She did a lot of stuff that looks bad, said stuff that sounds bad, but there's no like, and I killed him. Meanwhile, Angelica gets a lawyer named Rich Portale.

Enjoy this guy immensely. He started digging through his hair like, he's very good looking. Look him up. Richard Portale. P-O-R-T-L-E. My computer has timed out here. Oh, he's much younger than I was anticipating. Oh, yes.

He's very good looking. Yes, he's very good looking. Yeah. He's probably a dick, but I really like him. He seemed to do a good job here and, you know. I enjoy his haircut as well. He's probably a dick, but I really like him. He seemed to do a good job here. And, you know, I enjoy his haircut as well. He's got a nice fade. He sure does.

And you're a woman who appreciates a good fade. I am. He starts digging through the evidence and he's like fixing his hair. Looking at the evidence. Fixing his suit. Just being beautiful. And tanning. He's definitely tanning. Oh, he's tanning so hard. 100 and tanning he's definitely oh he's tanning he's 100 tanning he leafed through

the evidence while he was in a tanning bed so while he's doing that he makes a pretty big discovery the plug that angelica supposedly unscrewed richard could prove that Vinny knew it was unscrewed. What? Get this. So Vinny was the one who loaded the kayaks on top of the Jeep. And he threaded one of the straps through that open drain pipe. And we know that because there's like, I think it's toll booth footage where you see them driving and you see that there's a strap running through that pipe so he knew that the thing was unplugged oh my gosh also the defense uncovered other photos of vince kayaking with the plug open he'd done it many times before and also not wearing a life jacket that's just kind of how

the guy rolled richard also looked over that interrogation tape and he felt like he saw some major red flags like coercion co co yeah you said it is that right yeah yeah the thing is some of the things he bring up he brings up i think are so major and it made me mad at 2020 for not including this shit because like really you include the hopscotching and no because i use their show a lot and i appreciate them greatly but i feel like you've got to include this other stuff so richard was like there was a clear language barrier and a cultural barrier here. She did not understand her rights in the United States. So get this.

Several hours after she'd been read her Miranda rights, Angelica asked the detective who Miranda was. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. So she clearly didn't understand. Didn't have a clue. And of course, you know, the detective says, no, she understood them. I asked if she understood and she said yes.

He also said that she hadn't been read her Miranda rights until after police had spoken with her for more than three hours at the police barracks. Which is like like if that's true that is like unreal to me yeah how could that's not how is that possible yeah do these cops not watch law and order they start that shit with the miranda yeah right off the bat one thing i will say so he talked about the language barrier. Just from watching interviews with her and stuff, I don't necessarily buy a language barrier. Her English is fantastic. She'd been in the United States for 15 years.

I mean, it was really, really good. I do buy a cultural barrier, though. Yeah. And I almost wonder if, you know, your culture impacts how you grieve for somebody. I think it probably does. Yeah, I think it does, too. Yeah. And I almost wonder if, you know, your culture impacts how you grieve for somebody. I think it probably does. Yeah, I think it does too. Yeah.

And I don't know. Maybe in Europe they don't cry openly in public or, you know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what they do in Latvia. I don't know either. Never been. No.

I hear they have a great gymnastics team. At this point, the defense is feeling pretty good and super cute. And the prosecution is feeling pretty bad. Not as cute. I gotta say, sorry. Angelica was facing life in prison. And that's what the general public expected her to get. I mean, the thing that is crazy about this to me

is I remember this case and I remember thinking, guilty! Yeah. And now I was like, ugh! It was crazy to be like reading this and be like, I'm going to write a script about that woman who killed her fiancé and then go, oh, no, she didn't kill her fiancé.

Terrible accident! The DA, David Hoovler, wasn't so sure about his... Hoovler? Hoovler. You want to look him up? I bet he's not as cute as Richard Portale or whatever his name is. I mean, who is? We aren't.

H-O-O-V-L-E-R. What's his first name? David? Do you need a spelling on that? I forgot it. I didn't know how to not spell it god didn't know how to not spell it oh no

he's not bad he stand a chance against old portale over there he's not a bad looking guy he's like so david hoovler is a normal yeah he's a dad he's a normal looking guy dude wears new balances on the weekend for maybe all the time but portale over here is like he's in a pageant you know he's got his his sash on already and hoovler's just you know polishing the old kids so david didn't feel good about his case so they worked out a deal he said plead guilty to criminally negligent homicide and admit that when you took out that kayak plug and when you ignored how bad the weather was and how choppy that weather was you unintentionally killed your fiancee the d8 what you got?

No. I think she might do it, but I don't. She's not a fucking wave expert or a kayak expert. She didn't knowingly put him in a dangerous situation yeah i don't believe she did either and then but i he also made the decision to get in that kayak in that water yeah okay i agree that she was just as much at risk yeah there as he was yeah um and also we haven't talked about this yet but if you did want to kill your fiance that is the fucking dumbest way to do it i'm gonna take this tiny plug out of the top of your kayak oh i'm gonna get out in the dangerous water with you right

exactly you don't take me under she had to be rescued from the water, too. Right. Right. And, by the way, he was a gun owner. So, like, gee, I'm not going to shoot you with a gun. That's too easy. I'm going to be, like, a cartoon villain. I'm going to play the long game here.

I just don't buy it. Yeah. The DA told the press that the more he looked at the evidence, the more he saw that it could go both ways. He wasn't confident that a jury would find her guilty, but he still wanted to hold Angelica responsible for her actions. Kayaking? Yeah. Her lawyer later said, Tracking? Yeah. Her lawyer later said,

he knew the plug was out. He knew the waves were high. He knew all of these things. And Ms. Graswald was not his mother. You know, he's a grown man, and that's really his responsibility. At least he made the decision to get in the water. Yeah, I mean,

I hate the victim-blaminess of that, but at the same time, he did make decisions. He didn't get victim-blamey. He made the victim blaminess of that, but at the same time, he did make decisions. I don't think it's victim blamey. Yeah, he made the decision just like she did to get in the water. They both made the decision to get in the water. Yeah. And he was.

He didn't have a life vest. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now we're in the summer of 2017. And this whole time, Angelica has maintained that she was innocent but at the same time she had no faith in the system whatsoever so she was facing life in prison yeah she spent the summer thinking it over yeah that's my fear that she's going to take the deal when she would have just gotten off i wouldn't risk it i do you would take the deal oh 100 life in prison or i mean

you're about to find out now she'd been in prison for so long that she was basically going to be out by christmas with time served and i think i would just be like all right fuck the justice system sure yeah sure i'm guilty yeah and i'd go back to latvia but you know right whatever never been but back on that gymnastics team yeah i'd be like i put on some wrinkle cream and hope hope they've missed me she spent the summer thinking it over like i said if she took the deal she could be out by christmas with served. But that would mean a guilty plea. Yeah. Ultimately, she did take the deal. She said it wasn't an easy decision, but she had to weigh the risk.

She could not risk going away to prison for the rest of her life. This whole time, Vincent's family maintained that Angelica murdered him. They were pissed that she got this deal. Really? Oh, yeah. Because imagine if you felt like your loved one was murdered and the murderer got, like, basically, I think Angelica was in prison for over two years. Yeah.

When Angelica pled guilty, it solidified their feelings. Vincent's sister Laura said, She definitely did something, otherwise she would have fought it. She still took a plea. An innocent person doesn't take a plea. No, I disagree. I disagree too. I think that's someone who doesn't have a court podcast right there.

100%, or has never listened to one. No, I think that she totally distrusted the system and was like this is my best bet i think she had a good chance of getting off if she went to trial i think so too it was i completely believe that she wouldn't have seen it that way yeah and that this was the least risky way to go i agree yeah i don't think it means that she is guilty yeah i would also worry about like if i were in a different country you know i had an accent and like angelica i'm sorry she was younger cuter than vince like i think there would be potentially people on a jury who would be like there'd'd be bias there. Yeah. There would be some serious distrust.

Yeah. Because they watched too much 90 Day Fiancé. Even though she'd been in the country for 15 years. Six weeks later, Angelica was released. She'd spent about 32 months in prison. So now she has a felony on her record. Yeah. And she worries that she might get deported.

Yeah. But there was one other thing she worried about. The life insurance policy. She tried to collect on it? Here's the thing. So, like I said, she pled guilty, but because she pled guilty to unintentional homicide, she was still eligible for her split of the policy because it was unintentional. Hold on.

Don't. Hold on. Hold on. You're smoking up like one of those hibachi onions right now. Vincent's family was determined to fight this. Oh, fuck yeah they were. They didn't want Angelica to receive any money. And like I said, she was about to receive potentially about $500,000.

But Angelica signed a paper that basically said that if she did get any money from the life insurance, it would go straight to her legal team. She was like, you guys deserve it. I don't want it. I'm sure she owed them a lot of to her legal team. She was like, you guys deserve it. I don't want it. I'm sure she owed them a lot of money from legal fees. So in this 2020 episode, Elizabeth Vargas, who I enjoy immensely, was like, do you think you deserve to get any money? And Angelica just shrugs and she goes, it's just money.

I'll go get a job. I'll make some. Wow. What an attitude. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Which I think is the perfect attitude to take.

Yeah. When there's all this tension and all this anger caught up. Yeah. And it's just like. It's just money. Yeah. Wow. I'm impressed by that.

I am too. Mm-hmm. Wow. I'm impressed by that. I am too. In August of 2018, Angelica was back in court to fight for her share of the insurance money. And she got... Nothing.

Something. Oh. But I have no idea how much. Great, thank you. Because they reached a confidential settlement. Okay. Did you think that like I just hadn't? You're like, well, I just wasn't able to find that.

It wraps up next week. I'm going to pull a brandy. Stay tuned next week when I give you the exact right amount. Twelve hundred dollars. In an interview a few months after she got out of prison, Angelica talked to the New York Times about how she'd been portrayed in the public. She said, I'm a person with feelings.

I love people. I love Vince. I love his family. I love my friends and his friends. I didn't just go out and cold-heartedly let him die. I tried to help him. i tried to paddle toward him it's just not fair how they're portraying me as a cold-blooded murderer or killer i agree so that's that like i said i thought for sure she did it and i listened the one thing for sure she

did it at the beginning well the one thing i can't shake is that 911 call. That 911 call. It's weird. Maybe I do wonder how much of it is just like being super cold. Yeah. Maybe that. I don't know. All I can tell you is I listened to that and I was like, fake. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I. But now I believe it was an accident. I do, too. I think it was an accident. Hmm. too. I think it was an accident. That was crazy. I'd never heard of that. Yeah, it was nuts.

If I ever want to kill you. You're going to take me out on a kayak? Multiple times. And then on like the 12th time. I'm going to unplug the tiniest little plug from our kayak. Oh my gosh. And just hope things come together. No.

Just kidding. We would never go kayaking. Never. Oh, that's right. You've got a terrible one. God damn. I was like, why is she giving me that serious look? Because you're about to talk about murder.

I am going to talk about murder. This case came from a recommendation from one of our listeners on Instagram. Her Instagram handle is Catwoman with a Y instead of an A, which I enjoy very much. Her name may be L. I don't know. I did a little Instagram stalking, but that's as far as I got. Why would it maybe L? Because you don't have, like, a profile.

Right. Like, her profile's private, so I can't see all of her information. Uh-huh. But, like, in her bio, it says L. But then it has a cat face next to it, so maybe she has a cat name L. Hope. These are the mysteries we need to uncover. Meanwhile, she's like, I wanted you to investigate the case.

Not me. We officially lose a listener over this. So thank you, Catwoman slash Maybe Elle, for this recommendation. The majority of my information for this came from the six-part series for the Tulsa World by Tim Stanley. Okay. Very good series of articles. Okay. Are you ready?

I mean, you look like you're... I'm really tense right now. Oh, okay. I'm really tense. You're in the weirdest position. I am. I don't even know how to describe. You know what?

The way I am right now is like I'm maybe afraid you're about to roofie me because i've got like my hand over my iced coffee yeah i just girl scout murders i'm not excited and also rude of you to not bring girl scout cookies to this you're right what was i thinking i don't know michelle hoffman could feel the excitement. It was all around her and bubbling up inside her. It was June 12th, 1977. Oh my gosh. The best day.

Brandy and Norman's birthday. And Michelle was in the parking lot of Girl Scout headquarters in Tulsa, Oklahoma, getting ready to board a bus for two weeks of sleepaway camp. Girls all around her were doing the same. They were preparing to head to Camp Scott, a 410 acre camp located just two miles from Locust Grove and about 50 miles from Tulsa. and about 50 miles from Tulsa. The camp had been run by the Girl Scouts since 1928 and offered hiking, swimming, stargazing, sleeping in tents, everything a young scout could want at summer camp. It was Michelle's seventh summer at the camp, and at 15, she'd aged out of the camper bracket. This year, she was returning as an aide to the camp director, and she was thrilled. Camp director was a position she dreamed she'd hold one day, as the camp had played a huge role in

her development, and she dreamed of providing that same experience to other young girls. That June day in 1977, Michelle looked around the parking lot at all the faces. There were some she recognized and lots she didn't. It was the first session of the summer and 130 girls were signed up to attend. As the girls started to load the buses to camp, one of the girls' faces caught her eye. Michelle was drawn to the girl for a couple of reasons. First, she was beautiful. Second, she was the only African-American girl there. And third, she looked nervous as hell. So Michelle walked over to her, introduced herself, and learned that the girl was Denise Milner. She was 10 years old, a first-time camper,

and she did not want to go. Oh, poor Denise. Her mother explained to Michelle that Denise was feeling a little homesick already and was having second thoughts about getting on the bus. Michelle held out her hand to Denise and said, why don't you come with me? We'll ride down together. It'll be fun, I promise. So the two boarded the bus and on the hour and a half ride to the camp, Denise said very little. She just stared out the window. All along the to the camp, Denise said very little. She just stared out the window. All along the way, though, Michelle kept saying encouraging things like,

you're going to do great. You'll have so much fun. That had always been her experience at camp. She could have no idea that Denise's experience at the idyllic Girl Scout camp located at the end of Cookie Trail Road would be very different. Once they arrived at Camp Scott, the girls were broken up into different groups and set off to different sections of the camp. Each section consisted of a counselor's tent and seven camper's tents.

The tents were, when I was a Girl Scout, what we called permatents. So they had like, they were like a wooden structure. So they had like a wooden platform and then a wooden like roof structure and then canvas hung over that. And you could roll the sides up to let the air in and whatever. And then inside were four cots for sleeping. Did you go to camp? I did. I went to, so I was only a Girl scout for one year and i was thinking about this this morning i was trying to figure out what year it was i must have gone to girl scout camp between the summer between fifth and sixth grade but i'm not positive you didn't no you didn't what the fuck don't i'm like what the fuck i was a random person i was only a girl scout

my fifth grade year i can't imagine i would have gone to girl scouts before to girl scout camp before i was an actual girl scout i feel like i would remember if you had left me for two weeks this exact thought this morning i was like it couldn't have been that summer but i don't know how it could have been any other summer it had to have been between third and fourth grade because i wasn't a girl scout then it would it's been between third and fourth grade because i wasn't a girl scout then it would it's either between fourth and fifth or between fifth and sixth okay maybe between four and weren't as good a friend right we weren't as good of friends then so i would not have noticed if you'd gone so it must it must be between fourth and fifth grade okay so yeah i went

my my session was only for a week. It wasn't two weeks since I was on the younger end. I would have only been like nine years old. And one of my friends was in, that was from my Girl Scout troop, was in my bunk with me. But I was horribly homesick. I'd never like been away like that before. I didn't know anybody else. But I still had a good time.

But for the first couple days, I was very sad. very sad that is exactly like so i always loved summer camp yeah i worked as a camp counselor yeah and it's the same if you're a camper or a camp counselor the first couple days suck yeah they just suck because you're so many new people yes and then it's the best time ever and then all they the only place there were fucking flushing toilets was at the pool everywhere else they were just latrines it was terrible crickets got in my duffel bag oh i had bug bites everywhere hated that part loved the zip lining and the swimming and the repelling that was all very cool yeah i okay i've never roughed it i've never done i mean my toilet's always flushed no no where i go yeah no except outdoor morning outdoor shower this morning when you flush the toilet with the water turned off okay guys norman best husband

ever he's changing out the kitchen sink right now. Obviously not at the moment, but it's given him a ton of trouble. He's run into like seven issues. It's been bad. This morning, he woke up way early to work on the sink. I like woke up at my normal time, kind of stumble into the bathroom, go pee, flush the toilet,

and the toilet goes, and then all of a sudden I hear from downstairs, God damn it! Apparently, Norman, it has his face over a pipe and it had just splashed him right in the face. Poor Norm! Oh no, it was great. He really, really appreciated it. Anyway, back to the story. So, okay, so you get the idea of the permittance, whatever.

So when the groups were divided up, Michelle and Denise were put into separate groups and sent their separate ways. So, like, there are several of these seven tent setups throughout the camp. Right. So they're put into different sections. Throughout the camp. Right. So they're put into different sections. But Denise did all right getting settled in and meeting her new bunkmates, the people that she would sleep with for the next two weeks.

Yeah. They were Lori Farmer, who was eight, and Michelle Goose. Goose. G-U-S-E. Goose. Goose. That's what I said, but didn't sound right yeah andre you know michelle goose who was nine the day went well but that night a thunderstorm hit the camp and all the campers were sent to their tents to hunker down for the night that night and tent seven where these girls were

assigned they waited out the storm together laurie farmer wrote a letter home she told her parents that she'd already made some new friends and was excited for camp but over on denise's cot a letter of a different tone was being written denise wrote dear mom i don't like camp it's awful the first day it rained i have three new friends named glinda laurie and michelle michelle and laurie are my roommates mom i don't want to stay at camp for two weeks i want to come home and see kathy and everybody your loving child denise milner so sad yeah this is this would make me so nostalgic for camp yeah there were so many dramatic letters home well these girls would never get to mail their letters oh god don't

remind me that this is a sad story the following morning june 13th 1977 camp counselor carla wilhite exited the counselor's tent and headed to the shower at approximately 6 a.m. Now, Carla had been awoken in the middle of the night by some strange sounds. Later, she would describe them as guttural, almost not human. But she'd come out of the tent to check it out. She'd shined her flashlight all along the camper's tents. Hadn't seen anything. She'd gone back inside.

She'd woken up another counselor and they said they hadn't heard anything. So she went back to sleep. So it's now 6 a.m. She's walking to the shower and on her way she's doing like a quick glance of the camper's tents. And that's when she saw something kind of out of the ordinary so 10-7 is what they called it police would later call it camp 8 because they are tent 8 because they counted the counselor's tent as tent 1 okay but the campers tents were the only ones that were numbered typically is this important or it's not at all r, please go into a lot of detail.

And what is a screen door anyway? So as she looks at tent seven, she sees something that's kind of odd. At first, it looked like it was like a pile of sleeping bags about 100 yards outside the tent. And so she kind of walked over to see what it was and upon closer inspection it was clear that it was actually a pile of bodies denise laurie and michelle were all dead oh my god carla alerted the camp director and police were on the scene within the hour the campers were all gathered together far from the tent and within three hours of the discovery they were loaded onto buses and sent back home without being told what was going on a photo old was the girl who discovered them i don't know oh young but

yeah like a teenager yeah like a teenager yeah oh yeah a photographer for the Tulsa world who also sometimes worked as a police photographer photographing crime scenes would later recall how striking the scene was. Here he was in this beautiful camp surrounded by nature with the sound of singing scouts in the background because the girls were occupied like. Well, yeah, they didn't want them. Yeah, like singing songs and whatever. Meanwhile, he's taking photos of three little girls who had been brutally murdered. God, that poor guy.

Oh, yeah. Well, he's like a news photographer. So it's not like he's even like mentally prepared to deal with stuff like that. There's no mental preparation for that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's terrible. Those poor little girls. Investigators were able to piece together what had happened pretty easily.

Inside the tent was a gruesome scene. There was blood everywhere. But someone had made an attempt to clean it up. Why? Isn't that so weird? Yes. The perpetrator had used bed coverings to try and wipe the pools of blood off the floor and then stuffed the blood-soaked claws into the sleeping bags with Michelle and Lori. Dude, it didn't happen at your house.

You don't have to clean the scene. It's super weird. Whoever had committed this crime had cut the canvas on the tent and made entry through either the back or the side. I'm not sure which direction he came in. And what number tent was this? It was either seven or eight, depending on how you count. Okay, so the reason I say that,

it really doesn't fucking matter to the story. But like there's a book about this. It's called like The Girls in Tent Eight or something like that. I see what you mean. But at camp, they always called it Tent Seven. Yeah, yeah. So fuck seven. Yeah. Yeah. So fuck off.

So whoever had done this had cut the canvas, made entry through the back or the side of the tent, and then bludgeoned Lori and Michelle to death. Oh my God. Lori had been hit on the side

and the back of the head, which made police believe that she was either standing with her back to the perpetrator or laying like on her stomach in her bed when she was attacked. Wow. Their bodies were then put into their sleeping bags and dragged or carried over a hundred yards from the tent.

Denise was bound with some kind of ligature, I believe tape and then asphyxiated. Her body nude from the waist down was piled on top of the other girls. Oh my God. All three girls were sexually assaulted. Why did you do this? I hate this. Many, so this is really weird.

So many articles say that the girls were raped and they were definitely sexually assaulted. But I found a specific article that mentions a press release from the medical examiner saying they were not raped so i don't i don't know i don't think it fucking matters it's a terrible fucking crime either way and i wonder like do some yeah i i it's such a small detail that i don't think it matters it doesn't make it any better or worse they were sexually assaulted in some way semen was found on all of their bodies oh gross

yeah but i think it's weird that they all say that they were raped and then there's a specific article where the medical examiner says they weren't so i don't know yeah investigators don't didn't really have that much in the way of physical evidence in the case though so they have the same what year was this 1977 oh damn it yeah i was like it doesn't do doesn't do hardly shit for them at that point yeah hardly shit i don't think that's a phrase people say and you invented it good job um what they do have though is a shoe print that was left in blood inside the tent. And it's a size nine and a half men's shoe print.

Okay. And then they also have a fingerprint from a big red flashlight that was found on top of the girls' bodies. Did not belong to any of the girls, but it was found on top of them. Other than that, they had some tape and some rope that had been used maybe to tie Denise up. Obviously, the murders became huge news very quickly. Yeah, it was terrible. Three beautiful little girls were dead,

and it had happened somewhere where kids should feel safe and have fun. The public was outraged. They wanted answers, and someone needed to pay for this. Are you setting me up for them getting the wrong guy no i don't know am i oh damn it hmm this sentence makes no sense let's hear it let Just spat everywhere. Initially, shit was getting leaked to the press left and right is what that's supposed to say. And only like 38% of it was correct. And all of this leaked information kept getting printed in the newspaper.

No. Yes. So it was announced that two different sized footprints were found and that fingerprints were found on the bodies that the murder weapon had been determined to be a crowbar and that had been found and that there were all kinds of viable fingerprints all over it okay i am pissed was were there reporters making this shit up or were there people on the police side just i spilling shit? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. God. Yeah. Okay. So eventually, but not nearly soon enough,

the sheriff ordered a media blackout in the case because all of this information was hurting the investigation. Yes. Two different footprints had been found, but they couldn't say when the second one was made. It was outside the tent, not inside. It was a boot rather than a shoe but could have been there for days they didn't really they didn't really have any way of knowing exactly

when it was made and there were sightings of a man near the camp with boots on a couple days prior to the murder um and then the fingerprints that it was released were found all over the girls' bodies. All the medical examiner said was, no, that's not the case. And they wouldn't elaborate on where that information had come from. No, what's not the case? There were not fingerprints all over the girls' bodies. I don't even know how that would work. I don't think you can leave a fingerprint on skin. Hmm.

Yeah, that's a good point. I've never heard of that before. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No murder weapon was ever located, let alone one

that was covered in fingerprints. Okay. I'm guessing that this was like, yeah, we think it was probably done with a crowbar

and then that turns into, oh, they found a crowbar. It was a crowbar. They found it. It's got fingerprints all over it. Yeah. Yeah.

If this was an episode of Sesame Street, the word of the day would have been miscommunication. Why the hell would this be an episode of Sesame Street? What is it, Kristen? I was trying to do something clever. God! I was trying to do something clever. God! This episode is brought to you by miscommunication.

Because the miscommunications did not stop with the leaks. This is the worst episode of Sesame Street I've ever seen. What if I did it like in a big bird voice? Would that be better? What's big bird's voice? I have no idea. Does he talk? Yeah, he fucking talks! Don't give me that face.

So when authorities visited Michelle Goose's parents to inform them of Michelle's death, somehow the Gooses left that conversation thinking Michelle had been in some kind of accident. What? accident what it's unclear if the officials told them that or if it was simply like their interpretation of what they were told but they didn't find out that their daughter had been murdered until they saw the bulletin about it on the fucking news you're kidding me no oh my god how fucking terrible would that have been do you think they were like trying to like nice it up i think probably and so i think they probably didn't want to say your daughter was murdered and so they said there's been an incident she's dead and they totally interpreted it as there was some kind of accident yes yeah because you would never jump to the conclusion that oh my daughter was brutally murdered. Right. At Girl Scout camp. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. How terrible. Oh, yeah. Rip the bandaid off in one go. Yeah. Another kind of pseudo miscommunication came with the release of the girls' identities to the press. Like I said earlier, the camp was evacuated following the murder and the girls were sent home without knowing what was going on among those girls was michelle hoffman the girl that had ridden down with um denise and who was looking forward to spending her summer um aiding the camp director that's i said summer too many it was the summertime guys guys it was summer summer summer camp summertime

directing with the camp director so when michelle heard about what had happened she was devastated but she didn't recognize any of the names of the victims initially denise milner was identified as doris milner as doris was her legal first name oh But she went by Denise, her middle name. It wasn't until Michelle saw a picture of the victims on the news that she saw that Doris was actually Denise, the sweet, timid girl she'd ridden the bus with. Yeah. And it broke her heart.

Well, yeah. That'd be horrible. Oh, yeah. And she knew that Camp Scott would likely never reopen. And summer camp in general would never spark the joy in her that it had. That would just completely change. Yeah, I'd be done. There was this girl who thought she was going to grow up to be a camp director.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Horrible. So the leaks to the press stopped with the media blackout. And for a few days, there were no updates in the case. The leaks to the press stopped with the media blackout, and for a few days there were no updates in the case. Then on June 23rd, 1977, police announced they'd identified a suspect and charged him with the murder of the three girls. There was one big problem, though.

They had no idea where he was. What? The suspect was identified as 33-year-old Jean Leroy Hart. Hart was a Cherokee Indian and had a criminal record that held prior convictions for violent crime. He'd been convicted on rape and kidnapping charges in 1966, but had been paroled in 1969. Shortly after his release... He'd raped and kidnapped and he was out on parole? It's kind of a weird case. I couldn't find much about it, but...

Ooh, did this happen on a reservation? It didn't happen on a reservation. Oh, well, there goes that theory. It did not. He is a Cherokee Indian, but it's a weird case because it was like two women willingly got in his car initially, but then wanted to get out of his car and he didn't let them. Yeah. Yeah.

And then sex that he thought was consensual in his version of events turned out not to be consensual. So it's an odd case. His name's Gene. Gene Leroy? Yes. I'm calling him Leroy

because Leroy is the more sinister name. So he had only served three years before being paroled in that case. Yeah. That's kayaking time. That's not kidnap and rape time. So shortly after his release, though, he was tried and convicted in four robberies around the Tulsa area.

Damn. And for those crimes, he was sentenced to 50 to 305 years in prison yeah it was like oh we let you out on that kidnapping and rape stuff well we're really gonna pile it on for these robbery charges good god yeah i don't even know how that's possible it was four charges welcome to America. We love our stuff. Rape whoever you want. Holy fucking shit. Holy, yeah. So he's sentenced to 50 to 305 years. That's crazy. But in 1973, he managed to escape with another inmate and had been on the run for the last four years.

Yes. How'd he escape? I don't know. Damn it, Brandi. I don't know. I'm sorry. That would have been the perfect opportunity to just say he did a Shawshank Redemption tunnel. Climbed out a sewer pipe. Well, he got a poster and

you tell me what he did. Investigators had reason to believe that Hart had been in the area near the camp, near the time of the murders. And they said that they tracked him to a cave about three miles from the camp. In the cave, they found pictures that Hart had developed during his time working in the prison photo lab, which who knew the fucking prison had a photo lab? Yeah, that's super odd.

Super weird. lab which who knew the fucking prison had a photo lab yeah that's super odd super weird the legitimacy of these pictures and how they came to be found in this cave would become pretty controversial down the road yeah there were many who believed that hart was not a viable suspect and that he was a scapegoat that the sheriff had a personal vendetta against him in that the photos had been planted in the cave because the sheriff was humiliated that he'd been unable to capture the fugitive Hart for four years now. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's pretty likely. I think so, too.

Yeah. The sheriff, Pete Weaver, had somewhat of a reputation of having it out for the Native Americans in the area. Oh, no. And Cherokee activists began to speak up in support of Hart. It was unusual. The public had been crying out for someone to pay for these crimes. But when the suspect was announced, it was very polarizing. A lot of people were like, no, we know him.

There's no way like this is possible. And people were like, other people were like, oh, yes, him. There's no way like this is possible. And people were like, other people were like, oh, yes, of course it's him. Let's hunt him down. Let's find him. Hold on. What evidence did they have besides just some photos? That's literally all the evidence they had. Okay.

Bullshit. Yeah. If you're on the run. Yes. You don't take photos that can be linked to you and like put them on your ID spot. Exactly. So in this cave, there was tape that matched the tape at the crime scene. There was a pair of sunglasses that were believed to be stolen from the camp.

And there were those photos. And the photos linked Hart to the cave and the evidence linked the cave to the campsite. I think it's fucking bullshit. Yes. Yeah. So the search for Gene Leroy Hart would grow to be the biggest manhunt

in Oklahoma history. Whoa. It would take 10 months to track him down. Ultimately, they tracked him to a two-room shack of a Cherokee medicine man about 30 minutes outside of Locust Grove. When investigators confirmed that Hart was there, Dick Wilkerson, the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation's chief inspector, gave the order

to bring him in. Go ahead and take him. Don't kill him unless you have to, but he can't get away. go ahead and take him don't kill him unless you have to but he can't get away but heart was taken into custody without incident sam pigeon the cherokee medicine man was later charged with harboring a fugitive yeah finally many people around the community including the parents of the three little girls felt like they could breathe again the monster was in custody i don't know they were safe but a growing number of people began to question if they had the right guy despite his checkered past everyone who knew hart said he never would have been capable of a crime like this among his supporters was his defense attorney garvin iss, a former public defender. He was dependent on the public. A former public defender who now owned his own practice. He said that the first time he met Hart,

the first words out of his mouth were, I want you to know one thing. I did not kill those Girl Scouts. And Isaacs believed him. Support for Hart continued to grow as the trial neared businesses around locust grove held fundraisers for his legal fees wow supporters wore t-shirts that said stop the maize county railroad a nod to the view that heart was being railroaded or set up for an unfair trial yeah the cherokee national Council also came forward and donated $12,500 for Hart's defense, adjusted for inflation. Oh. That would be about $54,000.

Not too shabby. Though the donation came with an official statement. The council said that they were not taking a position on Hart's guilt or innocence, but that they just wanted to ensure that he received a fair trial. Yeah. Yeah. Because you can't get a fair trial without money. No.

I firmly believe that. Yeah. The murder trial of Jean Leroy Hart finally began on March 5th, 1979, 21 months after the murder. And it was a fucking circus. Uh--huh the trial was held at the county courthouse in prior oklahoma and news media from all over the country flocked to the small town to cover it jury selection took 10 days whoa with more than 110 prospective jurors being questioned finally a jury of six men and six women were selected and sequestered for the duration of the trial.

How many Native people on the jury? Do you know? I don't know. I don't know. I wonder if the prosecutor was like, we'd like a bunch of white people. Probably. The state's case hinged on two basic types of evidence. types of evidence. The biological, including hair and sperm samples found on the girls,

which expert testimony said belonged to Hart, and items that could put Hart at or near the scene of the crime. So the biological evidence by today's standard was sketchy at best. So my understanding of the court record, so i read through this a little bit and i was like reading like the official court record so like some of it was in shorthand so i was like what the fuck does that even mean so my understanding was that an expert testified that the hair found on the body was in keeping with the texture and makeup of native american hair that it was never actually compared to Jean Leroy Hart's actual hair. That's insane. Is that not insane?

Yes. And the semen found at the scene, so DNA was not a thing yet. Right, right. But what they did was they looked at the semen found on the scene under a microscope and they compared it to a sample provided by Hart.

And they said that they were the same shape, that the sperm was the same shape. So it likely came from the same person. Oh, come on. Apparently, the tail of sperm and the shape of the head can vary greatly from person to person, Kristen. I had no idea. Seems like a very specific science. I feel like that's not really so much a thing because we don't hear about that at all. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. So that's the biological evidence that they present from their experts at Child. That was your job. No fucking shit. To get your face right down in there? Yeah. As for the items that could put Hart at the scene of the crime, that's what I mentioned earlier.

There was the pair of sunglasses that were alleged to have been stolen from a camp counselor, a roll of tape that matched the tape at the scene, and the photos that they were able to link to Hart through the prison photo lab. That is so stupid. These items had all been found in that cave where investigators believed Hart had been hiding out. But they didn't find like a sleeping bag. They didn't find food. They didn't find water. All of the obvious things you would have if you were hiding out there. Nope.

No, he went for putting up the homie touches first. That's right. Interesting way to go, I gotta say. But the prosecution admitted that they had no smoking gun. They knew that their case was circumstantial. But if you look at all the pieces together, they told the jury. And add in a dash of racism. They add up to a guilty verdict.

Uh-huh. The defense strategy was essentially to put the investigation on trial. Isaacs told the jurors that the prosecution case was all part of a grand design to convict an innocent man. Authorities had been out to get Hart from the beginning, he told the jury, and they'd ignored other more likely suspects, namely convicted rapist Bill Stevens, who by this time was serving time in a Kansas prison. Stevens, Isaacs told the jury, was the stronger suspect. And then he called a handful of witnesses who testified that they had all seen Bill

Stevens the morning of the murders acting nervous. Where? Near the campsite. No. And the witnesses testified that stevens was dirty and had red stains on his boots well god damn it right yes were they nine and a half probably i don't know but so the prosecution maintained that the sheriff investigated him and ruled him out as a suspect yeah okay bullshit yeah then perhaps the simplest but most damning proof of innocence was offered by the

by the defense those two pieces of concrete evidence the prosecution had the fingerprint from the flashlight and the shoe print and blood neither belonged to heart the fingerprint wasn't a match oh and the shoe print was a nine and a half. Heart wore an 11 and a half. Well, yep. You can't change your fingerprints and you can't shrink your feet, Isaac's told the jury. Believe me, I've tried. Yeah, that's not him. Yeah.

How did this get to trial? That is insane. It's insane, right? Oh. That is insane. It's insane, right? Oh. Yeah. So Betty Milner, who was Doris Milner's mom, said, I'm sorry, Denise Milner.

I don't know why I called her Doris. That is her legal name. It's her legal name. You got confused. We'll correct it on next week's episode in our new segment. Oh, shit. Brandi fucked up. She said the courtroom was a lonely place to be.

It wasn't hostile, but there were few people on her side, it seemed. When leaving the courtroom, the girl's parents said people would come up to them and say, I'm sorry, but Hart did not kill your daughter. Okay, shut up. Yeah, that's not helping anybody. And it didn't help to see the collection jar set up in his name at stores all over town. The town had really gotten behind Hart, which was very difficult for the parents. I mean, I'm glad the town got behind him.

But I can see how that would just be awful because then you feel like no one's advocating for your daughters. Absolutely. The trial itself was difficult to watch at times for them, too. Not just because the material was so hard to hear, but because it would break down to a full-on sparring match between the two lead attorneys at times. Oh, God. Both the prosecutor and the defense attorney were admonished multiple times for their behavior in court. At one point, the two attorneys had been called into the judge's chambers where when things had escalated in the courtroom and things continued to escalate so much in chambers

that the prosecutor challenged isaacs to a fight no yes isaacs didn't take him up on it but prosecutor ron schaefer remembers it as the only time in his career that he challenged an opponent. Fucking dudes, man. Yeah. That's dumb. It's so dumb. After 10 days of testimony, the case was handed to the jury. They began deliberating on a Thursday afternoon. They deliberated for six hours before retiring for the evening.

Then the following day, March 30th, after deliberating only another 30 minutes, they sent word to the judge that they'd reached a verdict. The jury found Gene Leroy Hart. They could not have found him guilty. They couldn't have? No. You don't think that's possible? No.

They found him not guilty? Oh, my God. You jerk. Oh, Jesus. they found him not guilty oh my god you jerk the courtroom broke into cheers as the verdict was read heart put his face in his hands and sobbed out of relief the parents of michelle laurie and denise cried tears of a different kind how could this happen the police had told them this was the man who murdered their children did they believe that though after listening to all that i think i think if you if you're in their situation and the police are telling you we're getting you justice for your girls this man did this to them yeah yeah it would be easy to see the prosecution

side and be like yeah this is him like yeah i mean we might not have the best evidence but we got to put this guy away yeah yeah okay i think because you trust the police i say fuck the police i'm saying if you were those parents in that situation you would trust the police i'm just rapping to you which is what I do sometimes. The jury later told the press that on their initial vote in the jury room, they had all voted not guilty. Wow.

Yeah. They came to the unanimous decision after only five minutes. But they felt they owed it to the families to deliberate on it longer to be absolutely sure they were making the right decision. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hart was relieved relieved but he wasn't a free man he was sent back to prison to continue serving his sentence on the robbery conviction for 300 300 yeah that's crazy 300 years for robbery jesus i mean what do you take i don't know it was only four charges of robbery that's that's crazy yeah on june 4th 1979 almost two years to the day after the murders

heart dropped dead of a heart attack in the prison exercise yard whoa yeah after the acquittal sheriff weaver was asked if he would reopen the investigation into the girl scout camp murders and he said why would we we have the right man no you don't dumb dumb oh that fuckwad yeah he knows he doesn't have the right guy dna testing has been developed since the crimes and multiple attempts have been made to match gene leroy heart's dna to the semen samples collected from the scene a partial match in 1989 said there was a one in 7 700 chance that the sample belonged to anyone other than heart but the sample was officially deemed deteriorated deteriorated yeah you said it. Deteriorated. And therefore deemed inconclusive because it failed to match the five aspects required for a conclusive match. Okay.

So it wasn't – I don't know what that means. I don't know if that means that those results are wrong or inaccurate, but it was deemed inconclusive. Okay. As recently as 2017, 40 years after the murders, fundraising efforts were made to do independent DNA testing on the samples once again. The fundraising goal was met, but no word yet on the result of that testing. This is unsolved? It is unsolved. What about that dude, that sketchy dude? So I don't know if they ever looked into him anymore.

He's dead now. He died in prison as well. Oh, wow. what about that dude that sketchy dude so i don't know if they ever looked into him anymore he's dead now he died in prison as well oh wow um so this has become kind of an urban legend story there's a lot of like um aspects to it that have kind of grown in legend and people think um there's paranormal aspects to it so okay two days before the murders, the counselors were at camp doing training. And one of the counselors had a box of donuts in her tent. And when she went back to her tent, the donuts were gone. They'd been stolen. But in the box was a note that said, three girls will die here this year.

No. Yes. that really happened according to yeah according to a couple of sources it really happened but she just wrote it off as like so she reported it to the camp according to this yeah okay she reported it to the camp director and they wrote it off as a prank yeah yeah the day before the murders there was reported seeing two men wearing like army style combat boots near the behind the tents near the camp a man who lived in the area of the camps that he heard um heavy like automobile traffic the night of the murders like around 3 a.m but no car or anything was ever linked to the crime oh this is so frustrating okay perhaps the craziest one okay so denise

milner's shoes were missing from the scene and so the camp was shut down after the crimes it was never reopened oh wow um It's like completely abandoned now. Parts of the building still stand. You can actually go look at the pictures of it online. Oh, God. Yeah. But so her shoes disappeared. And then like two months or something after, like a maintenance worker was there at the camp taking care of something.

And Denise Milner's shoes appeared. up taking care of something and denise milner shoes appeared her shoes and socks were wet in a bag and they appeared like on the stairs out of one outside of one of the buildings on at the camp no yeah yes hold on like oh god right when i read that i was like holy fucking shit like so he was there he was doing his thing there was no bag yeah comes back bag shoes socks they're wet inside this bag and they were positively id'd as denise milner's shoes i would shit my pants yeah yeah and then run. Yeah. Last little bit. Oh, my God. There was a fourth camper assigned to tent seven for that session. Her name was Connie Sanders, and she stayed home due to illness. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Oh, geez. Oh, that. This story is too much. This story is too much. It's so fucking creepy. Oh. Yes. This story is too much. It's so fucking creepy. Oh. Yeah.

What do you do with that? I mean. I don't know. Yeah. Imagine being that girl. No, I can't. I can't imagine it. Yeah.

So one of the girl's parents, one of the girls, I think it was Lori, was trying to decide if she should go to Girl Scout camp or to camp at the Y. She couldn't decide, and so she asked her parents to decide, and they decided to send her to the Girl Scout camp. And so they felt they lived with that guilt forever. And then Denise's mom, obviously Denise had decided at the last minute that she didn't want to go, and Betty made her go. And so she carried that guilt forever, too. Which is what you do as a parent oh yeah i mean if yeah my parents had caved every time i said i didn't do anything i wouldn't have done anything yeah one of the girls parents i believe it was michelle goose i might have this wrong i didn't write it down they founded

the oklahoma chapter of the Parents of Murdered Children group. Okay, yeah. So that's a devastating case and still to this day technically unsolved. How horrible. Yeah. But I'm really glad they didn't convict. I am too. Yeah.

I am too. So there are some conspiracy theories. Sorry, I just did a weird straw noise. Go ahead. There are some conspiracy theories that Gene Hart did not die of a heart attack in prison. And that he was really murdered. How old was he? He was 35.

Oh, yeah. He didn't die. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. What? No, I mean, like, die of natural causes. Yeah.

Go ahead. Go ahead. He was 33 ahead he was 33 when he was charged so yeah he would have been 30 35 okay so there's conspiracy theories that he was taken out because people believe that he was he should have been found guilty um and that the sheriff's office and the medical examiner's office were in on it and made the report show that he had died of a heart attack. That's just a conspiracy theory. There's no actual fact backing that up anywhere.

I'd rock a tinfoil hat for that one. Oh, I would too. Yeah. Okay. Yep. Oh, my God. And that's the Oklahoma Girl Scout camp murders, Kristen. That was nuts.

You told that story very well. Thank you. It was deeply unsettling. Thank you to Catwoman on Instagram for that one. Wow. I have something to tell you. Oh my gosh, yay. And actually

so I've started a thing now where I've got some notes at the bottom of my script. Things to bring up. Wow. Because I forgot this two weeks in a row, I forgot to tell you this. Oh, great. Maybe it was just one week.

And Kyla was so annoyed with me for forgetting to tell you this, that she texted me this morning. She was like, I know you guys record today. Do not forget to tell Brady Blum. Okay. Okay. So your Hobson murder case. You were doing your Johnson County series.

And I always think I have no connection to this stuff. Yeah. Listen to this shit. So Jimmy Crum, that was a 17-year-old boy who killed his stepbrother. Yeah. My grandpa was his elementary school basketball coach holy shit yes so my dad just like casually brings up he's like you know grandpa uh was his coach said that you know jimmy was always a really aggressive kid and you know kind of had some had some trouble

oh my gosh apparently you know when he was living with his dad they moved over to raytown which my grandpa was in the raytown school district for like decades and yeah holy shit is it nuts that is nuts then on a very different note So you're always telling me disgusting things about how poop is everywhere, basically. Oh, yeah. Feces constantly. So you ruined mints for me. Yeah. Urine mints.

Those are really urine mints. Okay. Go ahead and tell the story of urine mints. Okay. So if you see a bowl of mints at a restaurant. Which I normally always take one. You know, like the little plastic wrapped peppermints and stuff. Stay fucking far away from those because people go to the bathroom at restaurants and like an alarming percentage of them do not wash their hands afterwards.

Yeah, people are gross. People are disgusting. So that means they got urine all over the hands. They reach in that mint bowl and that those urine germs, whatever germs are on their fucking hands all over those mints. They're just infested. But wouldn't that mean that those germs are everywhere? Yeah, but you're not putting other things in your mouth. Well, they're wrapped.

No, that's getting they're not. They're not fucking air sealed, Kristen. OK, if you see air sealed mints, sure. Go ahead and eat those. OK, so you did that uh-huh months ago yeah then what was it last week you ruined bar fruit oh yeah okay feces limes tell them about that okay so we at our at our celebratory dinner yes it was so we each got a cocktail and mine i think came with a lemon and yours came with a lime and i noticed i looked over and noticed that you did like a little squeezy with it okay

don't act like i'm weird i did the normal thing you plunked it right in your drink yes okay i read an article about a study on that bar fruit you know the cherries the oranges really not the cherries because those just come out of a jar. But like little orange slices that they put like on Blue Moon, little lemon wedges, lime wedges, all that shit. Okay. So that shit just gets cut up randomly throughout the day. And typically the bartender just like wipes their hands off on that fucking gray ass dish rag that's been sitting in the thing of water for four days yes so they did a study where they tested the rinds

of those barf roots and they had a ton of germs all over them feces vagina fungus, all kinds of disgusting shit. Okay, so in conclusion, Brandy ruins things for me. So this past weekend, I was out with some friends, and I got a cocktail, and you know what? I got a lime wedge with it. Oh, God, and you just plunked it right in there. I did, I did. But the whole time, I couldn't stop thinking about the feces.

And I thought, Brandy has ruined cocktails for me. And so I'm sitting around with a group of people. And I'm pretty much done with my drink. But I was like, you know what? I'm going to send a picture of this to Brandy. And I can't remember what I wrote with it. So I did that not realizing how stupid I would look because it was like super dark so I took a picture it flashed and like so everyone turns to

look at me and there I am taking an ugly picture of my empty drink like I don't know how to Instagram or something and so then I had to be like the gross person at the party who's like, well, the reason I'm doing this is because my friend says there's feces on this bar fruit. And so everyone starts talking about like, oh, yeah, I saw that study. And everyone's talking about how disgusting it is. Yeah. Then, then get this. My friend Jocelyn sitting next to me, she said, well, you know, I've heard the same thing about

men's beards. I saw a study. Men's beards have feces. I've heard that. I was overjoyed. I was like, this is excellent. Brandy's husband has a big old poop beard. I'm so excited to ruin this for her. So I've been excited all week long. I'm like, I'm going to ruin Brandy's day. She ruined barf root. I'm going to ruin Zach's face. You know, then, okay, don't do this. I know. I know.

So before you came over, your face, God. Before you came over, I was like, I'm going to find this study. I'm going to have it ready. Click, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee, dee. It's not real. It's it ready click it's not real it's not real it's not real i was so disappointed that your husband's beard isn't shocked full of feces zach shampoos his beard twice a day twice a day twice a day damn don't you think that's excessive yes so here's the reason he's over shampooing oh yeah he totally is and i've told him this but he's very into keeping that thing nice so this is what he does so he if you don't

know i mean you know but our listeners don't know he's a mechanic so he works very hard at work he gets very dirty so before he goes to bed every night he takes a shower you know lathers it all up shampoos that beard what's he in the shower he lathers up his head to toe with that one soap just like your dad can we not mention my dad in the shower ever again would you rather me say dp in the shower god it's not great either way. So then he goes to bed with his beard wet. And so in the morning, he has to shower again to reshape his beard. Why doesn't he blow dry his beard? Oh, he's never going to do that.

I asked him one time. Okay, so I saw this story on like a little video on Facebook about men getting beard blowouts. So like round brushing their beards. facebook about men getting beard blowouts so like round brushing their beards and so one night we're like laying in bed and i was like hey can i round brush your beard and he goes that's a no and i said one time you don't even know what that means and he said i know it sounds fucking girly like you're trying to give me feathered bangs or something I know it sounds fucking girly like you're trying to give me feathered bangs or something he wouldn't let you do it one time

nope he vetoed the beard blowout yeah he's too manly Kristen you know when Norman started blow drying his hair he felt like he was a whole new man wow he was just like new man. Wow.

He was just like, this is amazing. It's so much more manageable. It looks so much better. Yeah. It's quick. Feels pleasant to have this warm air on me. That's right. Yeah. And he gives himself a blowjob every day.

God. Got those ribs removed. I'm sorry. What are we talking about? I used to have a customer who every time after I cut her hair, nobody gives a shit, but I cut her hair dry because she had a very specific layered cut. And so she would get like these little pieces of hair on her face. And so at the end of her haircut, every time she'd ask for her blowjob to blow the hair up. She knew she was saying it to be funny.

She knew she was saying it to be funny, but I thought it always cracked me up. She's like, now I thought it always cracked me up. Yeah. She's like, yeah, I'm ready for my blowjob. I had a totally different mental image. I was thinking. Like someone who didn't know that they were saying something disgusting? And her name's Karen. Yeah.

And she has no clue. Oh, another thing. I want to tell you. Some kind soul has created a subreddit for us on Reddit. Yeah, so. Oh, my gosh. I'm going to click on it right now. Don't get too excited.

It has one subscriber, and I think it's the person who made it. Well, it can only go up from there. Surely she won't back out of her own Reddit. Can you imagine? She's like, I was into a few episodes, now not so much. So, I'm just gonna give it

a shout out because I thought it was so nice that, well, I assume it's a she. I actually have no idea. The username is I'm not insane 13.

Could be either. So, clearly, someone who's not insane. That is a unisex handle. And the subreddit is called

let's go to number two court podcast yeah love it that's awesome yeah that's super cool what if she hates it and it's just a place for her to vent and she just hasn't gotten around to it oh she doesn't she hates us so much and she can't even be bothered to vent about us. Oh, no. That'd be rough. Oh, wait. No, no. Okay. It says,

I really like the podcast. This is a place where people can post their interests in the cases, maybe post updates to cases they've done in the past. Okay, well, so clearly a nice person.

Clearly no one has been interested. Well, maybe no one knows about it. Yeah, say it again, Kristen. People are going to go there now. Let's go to number two. Court podcast. Excellent. Subreddit. now. Let's go to number two. Court Podcast. Excellent.

Subreddit. Yes. Head on over to that little Reddit thread that one of our listeners was so nice to set up. And yeah, share your thoughts. We'll read them. We'll interact with you guys on there. I don't know how to do Reddit. Kristen will be in charge of that.

No, I'm a lurker. I'm a lurker. I am on Reddit all the time. oh god scared me that sounded like a massive fart no i i think norman's scooting around up there on his chair uh no i you're a lurker you're a total lurker but i mean if we've got our own thing yeah then yeah do it head there and while we're at it head on over over to Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. We're all those places, too. And YouTube.

And YouTube. YouTube. Don't forget about YouTube. We're huge YouTube stars. You guys, we got more than 100 subscribers on YouTube. We got a congratulations email for reaching 100 subscribers. We've hit it big, guys right sky's the limit hey and then while you're at it uh head on over to itunes if you haven't already and

leave us a rating leave us a review we haven't mentioned that in a couple episodes and it shows you're so right it does the minute we stop asking people are like i guess they're good yeah um oh and i heard this on a podcast just this week i can't remember what what it was but i was listening to a podcast and at the end the lady was like give me a five-star review i was like well damn she just asked for it give us yeah go there and give us a five-star review yeah please no i don't like it i don't like it give us whatever review you think feel we deserve yeah there you go it's probably five stars might be four stars. Who knows? Definitely not lower than four stars.

I'd probably give myself a four star. I've had to do corrections several weeks in a row now. And then, you know, be sure to join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts.

For this episode, I got my info from the Murder by Kayak episode of 2020, as well as a bunch of articles from the New York Times. And I got my info from an amazing six-part series in the Tulsa world by Tim Stanley, as well as the Oklahoman, the Washington Post, People Magazine, and Yuzmodo. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are, of course, ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.