Let's Go To Court! - 57: The Seaman Family & Elizabeth Freeman’s Quest for Freedom

Episode Date: February 27, 2019

Nancy and Bob Seaman had a long and unhappy marriage. They got married in 1973, and by 2004, they were sleeping in different areas of the house and communicating exclusively through angry post-it notes. It looked like they were heading for divorce. But then Bob went missing. It didn’t take long for police to discover his body in the back of Nancy’s Ford Explorer. There’s no question that Nancy murdered Bob, but that’s where the certainty ends. Nancy claimed he’d been abusive for the entirety of their marriage. The couple’s youngest son, Greg, backed her up. But their oldest son, Jeff didn’t. Who was the jury to believe? Was Nancy a cold-blooded killer? Or was she an abused spouse who lashed out in self defense? Elizabeth Freeman was one hell of a woman. She was born into slavery in the mid-1700s. But thanks to a lot of gumption, the newly created Massachusetts Constitution, and a kick ass legal team, Elizabeth became the first enslaved woman to successfully sue for her freedom. Her lawyers argued that Massachusetts’ new constitution, which championed freedom and equality, effectively abolished slavery. Just nine years after her lawsuit, the federal census recorded no slaves living in Massachusetts.   And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Freedom Suits of the Pre-Constitutional Era,” www.mass.gov “Elizabeth Freeman,” PBS “Jury Decides in Favor of Elizabeth “Mum Bett” Freeman,” www.massmoments.org “Elizabeth Freeman,” www.womenhistoryblog.com “Slavery in New England,” section of the book Bentley’s MIscellany, Volume 34 An episode of “Finding Your Roots” Wikipedia entries for Elizabeth Freeman, Quock Walker, Theodore Sedgwick, the Sheffield Declaration, and the Colonel John Ashley House In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Nancy Seaman” episode Snapped “The judge who sentenced Nancy Seaman for murder now wants to set her free” by Hanna Rappleye, NBC News “Nancy Seaman” wikipedia.org  

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A proud member of Wayne's Auto Group. One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about an enslaved woman who sued her way to freedom.

And I'll be talking about semen. Oh, excuse me, I'm sorry. I mean, the seamens. Gross! Well, our cases couldn't be more different. It's not really that lighthearted of a case, but their last name is seaman oh geez so there's that so we'll take our laughs where we can that is right okay let's just uh jump right in shall we i guess you got anything you want to cover off coming off the top i don't know i kind of was hoping for a little chit chat but apparently

you want to dive right in no i mean you got something to chat oh shit no i was hoping i was hoping you came prepared were you ever in okay see this is sometimes you just gotta start talking sometimes were you ever in chat and chew in elementary school okay i thought that name was disgusting i always did it and you always got an ice cream sandwich at the end. So let's talk about who the real winner is. Chat and Chew was like you got buddied up with someone, right? No, it's just a book club. So you weren't really buddied up.

It was just like if you were in Chat and Chew, you got the book. I think it was like every month you got a book. And then on a specific day, you went to the library during lunchtime. You all had lunch together and talked about the book. You know what? I know I was not part of Chat and Chew. And I don't know why, because that seems like something I would love. But I remember that you would go to that and I wouldn't get to go.

And I remember being sad about it, which looking back, it's kind of the same thing as my Girl Scout thing, how I was always sad that everyone else was in Girl Scouts. Yeah. Why didn't I just say? Ask's kind of the same thing as my girl scout thing how i was always sad that everyone else was in girl scouts yeah why didn't i just say to be in this thing instead i was sad so yeah so you ate lunch like you just everybody brought a bag lunch yeah you talked about the book it's like book club for kids yeah and then at the end you got usually an ice cream sandwich i think there were other things too but clearly we wish no one i preferred see i remember i was thinking about this the other day about like your favorite ice cream treats oh yeah okay correct me if i'm wrong drumstick i love a yeah you love a drumstick i love a drumstick yeah and like you love a drumstick. I love a drumstick, yes. And like, extra points if there's an inch of pure chocolate at the bottom of the cone. Yeah. Yeah, that's the best part.

Absolutely it is. Okay, I just wanted to make sure I remembered correctly. Yep. Now, now we can get into it. Now we can get to the business. Oh god, sorry, I just hit my watch against the table. Oh great, was that like a big noisy thing for our listeners? Or just shatter my Apple Watch either apple why is it okay yeah it's fine okay okay most of this information comes from a television show

that i enjoy perhaps you've heard of it dateline it's called snapped oh i am familiar. Yes. Okay. Bob Seaman was missing. And his wife, Nancy, didn't seem that concerned. Wrong move, Nancy. Okay. It was 10.30 p.m. on May 11, 2004, and police were at the door of the Seaman's upper middle class home in the affluent Detroit, Michigan suburb of Farmington Hills. It was Tuesday evening and the police had received multiple calls of concern over Bob's whereabouts since he had failed to show up for work at his batting cage business on Monday morning.

The Seaman's adult son, Jeff, had also filed an official missing persons report. Missings persons? A missing... He filed a missing person report! Sounds like some extra paperwork slipped in there. There were some extra S's. So to sum up, everyone's super concerned about Bob, except for his wife, who was like, I don't see why we need to be filing all these missing persons reports. That's correct.

So Nancy is like, yeah, I know Jeff filed that report. But, you know, it's not unusual for Bob to take off for a couple of days without letting anyone know what's going on. He does that a lot. She told the officers that Bob was going through a midlife crisis and was trying to find himself and that she didn't have any idea where he was. This time she told him it seemed like maybe he was gone for good. He'd taken clothes with him and he made mention of starting a new life.

Nancy also told the police that it wasn't out of nowhere as their sons would want to believe. There had been problems in the marriage for a long time. Bob and Nancy had met at Ford, of course, because this is Detroit after all. They were both ridiculously good looking. It's crazy because they're much older

when this is happening because they met when they, when they were young, they met at Ford and they show pictures of them when they were young and they are both super attractive. Uh-huh. Not so much later in life or what are you trying to say? Really, they're just average later in life. So really just that age just knocks you down a few notches. that to look forward to well i think this is the advantage to not being like crazy good looking because it just kind of evens out well you know i mean like you cultivate other skills in life that's probably true you know you you start a podcast are you saying we started this podcast wherever because we're ugly no i'm saying we

started this podcast because we're like hey we're not going to be supermodels. Two faces for radio right here. Don't look us up. Nancy was a secretary. Bob was an engineer. They're both super good looking. They clicked right away and they married in 1973. Nancy quickly fell into a submissive role in the marriage.

It was a role she was happy to play, but it was a difficult one. Bob had a quick temper, and Nancy was usually the one on the receiving end of his anger. Are you sure she was happy to play this role? I mean, it sounds like it sucked. Everybody said she loved being the submissive housewife. Okay. I'm not speaking for her, Kristen. What was the name of the show?

She was described as being content in her life. Okay. And she seemed to think that that was the expected role of a housewife in the 70s. I'd say that's probably an accurate statement. Maybe she was less happy with it, but it was like this is life this is what life is yes okay soon there would be children to think about and that would bring new joy to her life bob and nancy welcomed their first son jeffrey in 1979 and a second son gregory completed the family in 1981 the boys could not have been more different though. Jeff was very much his father's son while Greg was super close to his mother. This will be important to remember later. Say it one more time

for the cheap seats. Jeff, the older son, was very much his father's son. Okay. While Greg, the younger son, was super close to his mother. And Jeff was the one who filed the missing persons report. That is correct. Okay. Gotcha. Noted. Things in the Seaman family were good-ish for the next several years while the boys

were growing up. At least the facade was good. Nancy was the happy homemaker, and Bob had worked his way up to the executive level at Ford. Wow. They lived in this beautiful Tudor house in a very affluent neighborhood. Do you have the address? I don't. Okay. I'll just picture it in my head. Oh, it's gorgeous. But in 1995, the facade started to crack. Bob was involved in some kind of situation at Ford and ended up on the wrong side of some corporate politics, and he was fired. Ooh.

He received a hefty severance package, but the job loss hit him hard. He didn't handle it well. He sunk into a depression. He didn't handle it well. He sunk into a depression. Just the thought of starting over at 50 years old was overwhelming to him. But Nancy thrived. She went back to college. She got a degree and got a job as an elementary school teacher.

And she loved it. Wow. She was making her own money. She was supporting her family. Yeah. It gave her new meaning and purpose to her life. It was like she'd found what she was always meant to do. By 2001, she'd completed her master's with a thesis on nonviolent conflict resolution. Oh, my.

Irony. Okay, here we go. with a thesis on non-violent conflict resolution. Oh my, irony. Okay, here we go. And was named Teacher of the Year at her Farmington Hills Elementary School. Wow. Yeah. Bob tried to find his place as well. He spent a lot of time working to restore his classic Mustang. He bought a batting cage business,

and he began coaching a traveling competitive girls softball team. And he enjoyed it all immensely. But Nancy's and Bob's new career and business left little time to focus on the marriage. And by this time, their sons were grown and out of the house and the relationship had broken down completely bob moved out of the master bedroom and he went two floors down to the basement couch oh and began living there oh that's boy i'd uh oh to self-demote like yeah that's bad yeah the two saw each other rarely and spoke even less frequently wow they began to communicate almost entirely through post-it notes the most passive aggressive form of communication yeah there were literally hundreds, maybe thousands of post-it notes all over the semen house.

And these weren't like, hey, could you pick up a gallon of milk notes? These were scathing messages full of curse words and name calling. Anything to degrade the other person. Nothing was off limits. No insult was too great. Nothing was off limits. No insult was too great. Was this a method of nonviolent communication? Yes, nonviolent conflict resolution.

I'll call him a selfish asshat. There we go. By 2004, the marriage was beyond any hope of repair. The oldest son, Jeff, was married and was working as an engineer at Ford. The younger son, Greg, was about to graduate college, and Nancy was ready for a fresh start. She borrowed a chunk of money from her father and put a down payment on a condo. But she told Bob that it was for Greg. She was just helping to get him established after college nancy go ahead why wouldn't that doesn't make any sense it's a terrible lie because they would have

just well and i'm even caught up on like you divorce first yeah then you buy the property yeah that doesn't make any well no unless you're planning on killing the guy okay continue so nancy kept this kind of charade going she even started boxing things up in the house under the guise that she was giving them to greg for the new condo she was even labeling all the boxes greg's condo he's like why are you giving greg all of your clothes i love greg's condo parentheses i'm not lying right exactly in the meantime bob was making plans of his own at the beginning of may 2004 bob went to arizona to visit his brother without telling anyone where he was going. And while there, he let his brother in on how the marriage had really been going. Been going.

Been going. Had really been going. He was ready to leave, ready for a divorce. But he told his brother he was concerned over what the divorce would cost him. his brother, he was concerned over what the divorce would cost him. And his brother told him that even if he was left with 50% of his assets, that was more than most people had in a lifetime. And it was a small price to pay for happiness. Yeah. So Bob left Arizona, ready to move forward with a divorce. When his brother... forward with a divorce. When his brother dropped him off at the airport on May 8, 2004,

he said Bob looked like a new person. A load had been lifted off of him. He was excited about the future for the first time in as long as he could remember. Three days later, police would be at the door of the Seaman home looking for Bob. And on that night, Nancy had convinced them that she didn't know where Bob was and that there was little to be concerned about. That this was not unusual behavior. And so they left the home that night without much investigation. Well, and I mean, if he had just taken off for Arizona and told no one, that's certainly working in her favor. The calls to police about Bob's whereabouts did not end, though. His oldest son, Jeff, kept calling, as did friends and coworkers.

They were convinced that something had happened to Bob. So the police returned to the Seaman home the following afternoon. This time it was because they had received a call from Bob's brother in Arizona. He filled the Farmington Hills police in on everything he and Bob had talked about that weekend. He told them he was concerned something had gone awry when he brought up the topic of divorce to Nancy.

And he let police in on the behind the scenes nature of the marriage. It was definitely enough to warrant a second visit to the Seaman home. Nancy welcomed the officers into the home was like oh i'm so glad you guys are here i was just about to call you wanted to let you know no bob's fine no everything's fine no bob is fine no he's not i just discovered that his passport and $500 are missing. So clearly he's gone on some kind of trip abroad.

Right? Great. Great, right? No need to keep looking for him. Have a great day. Ta-ta for now. I would love to know what foreign country you go to with just $500. But police were like, well, we don't know, Nancy.

Okay, hold on. Were the post-it notes still? Yeah. Okay, what the hell? So police are like, well, we don't know, Nancy. There seem to be an awful lot of people concerned about Bob. Mind if we just take a look around the house? And Nancy consented to let them do a basic search of the house.

Everything looked normal. That is, until police got out to the driveway. As they were getting ready to leave, an officer just kind of glanced in the back of nancy's ford explorer that was parked in the driveway and he saw what looked like a big piece of cardboard in the back of it and under that he could see what looked like a tarp oh my god with duct tape wrapped around it this was sitting out in her driveway. That is correct. Concerned, the officers are like, hey, Nance.

Yeah. Can we check out what's in your car? And Nancy was suddenly way less cooperative. She was like, why? What's up? Why would you need to look in my car? You think I got a dead body or something in there? No, she didn't say that. I don't think she actually said that.

And they were like, well, let's just say it looks like there's something back there and it rhymes with schmed schmody. That is. So the police get Nancy to open up the back of her Ford Explorer. What? She opened it? She opens it up and immediately they are knocked over with the smell of death. And there, under the cardboard, wrapped in a blood-soaked tarp, wrapped in duct tape, was the body of Bob Seaman. Oh my gosh. They placed Nancy under arrest.

As Nancy was being taken to the police station, the investigation into what had gone on was underway at the Seaman home. And it was huge news. Police tape went up around the property immediately and neighbors and news media descended on the scene. A murder in Detroit barely makes the newspaper, but a murder in Farmington Hills,

a suburb with one of the lowest crime rates in the United States, was a huge fucking deal. There was like helicopters all over the place. I mean, every neighbor was out on the street trying to figure out what was going on. Because no one really knew the true state of the Siemens relationship. So it's just shocking. It's also shocking that she would leave a dead body.

In the back of her car, in her driveway. Yes, it is. I mean, I know I'm being horrible and like skipping past the part of murdering someone. Yeah. I mean. Yeah. Clearly her first murder. Clearly.

A cursory examination of Bob's body showed that he had been bludgeoned and stabbed. Oh. And the murder weapons were found inside the Explorer. A kitchen knife was wrapped up in the tarp with Bob's body while a hatchet was found in a plastic bag inside the car. On the way to the police station, Nancy, though she had been read her Miranda rights, was not practicing her right to remain silent. From the backseat of the police cruiser, she told the officers, It was an accident! I have the bruises to prove it! Oh, come on. She asked that they please photograph all of her injuries

and that then she would tell them exactly what had happened. Once at the station, police did take photographs of a few minor scrapes and bruises before ushering an unemotional nancy into an interrogation room um one of the detectives spoke on this episode of snapped and he said it was extremely remarkable how unemotional she was yeah both for the fact that she had likely just murdered someone. And just that would be emotional, no matter what your reasoning behind it was, if you were, you know, a somewhat normal person. And then also, because her claims were that she was a battered, a battered woman, she's about to claim that this was all self defense. So which would, again,

most likely be a very emotional thing to be relaying you know i'm gonna disagree on this really i think if you've been abused by this man for decades and all of a sudden you truly do snap and you kill him maybe you would be kind of cold about it maybe let's find out okay so they go into the interrogation room and in there nancy told detectives that bob had been verbally abusive to her for the full length of their 31 year marriage and that in recent years the verbal abuse had blossomed into physical abuse she said that he had gotten physical with her on numerous occasions from nearly the beginning of their marriage, but it had increased in frequency and severity in recent

years. And on the day that she had killed Bob, it was the worst altercation she had ever been in, she told detectives. She truly believed she was fighting for her life nancy told them that bob had died on monday morning may 10th she had been in the kitchen making a sandwich to take for lunch that day when suddenly bob came in incensed he knew the condo wasn't for greg at all and that she'd bought it for herself. Then he told her she'd never lived to see it. He came at her, Nancy told detectives, and grabbed for the knife she was using to make the sandwich. And somehow in the process, he cut her hand. This was new. He'd hit and punched and kicked her before, she said, but he'd never cut her or used a weapon against her. Nancy ran from Okay. And when she placed her hand atop the generator, the handle of a hatchet just happened to be right there. Okay.

As she pulled herself up, she grabbed the hatchet and started swinging wildly, just flailing the hatchet any which way. And it must have made contact at some point because Bob fell to the floor. Bob fell to the floor. And when he did, Nancy said she went into a blind rage and just started hitting him with the hatchet over and over again. Then she staggered off and tried to collect herself. She told them she had no recollection of stabbing Bob and she isn't even sure where that knife came from. In a state of denial over what she had done, Nancy told detectives that she had decided not to call the police and instead to try and fix it by cleaning everything up and getting rid of Bob. It was an accident.

It was self-defense. She never wanted Bob dead. Or so Nancy said. What would the evidence say? When Bob and Nancy's oldest son, Jeff, got word that his dad's body had been found and that his mother was being held for his murder, he went straight to the police department to make a statement. He told police that he had spent all day with his mother that sunday prior to bob's disappearance it was mother's day oh when he had taken his mother home his father was there waiting for them having just gotten back from his trip to arizona almost immediately an argument ensued between nancy and bob and nancy according to jeff said

to him do you see how he treats me do you see what i put up with the fight had been escalating as jeff left but he wasn't concerned his parents argued like that a lot one thing he did contest though was that nancy was a battered woman. Jeff told detectives that he had never seen his father lay a hand on his mother, nor had he ever seen any signs of abuse. No bruises, no black eyes, nothing. Well, no signs of physical abuse, right? Because, I mean, if they're fighting like that all the time, that could be verbal abuse. Okay, I'm skeptical on this whole thing. OK, keep going.

He told detectives that there was no way his father had ever laid a hand on Nancy. Did she say that Jeff had ever witnessed physical abuse? Not to my knowledge. OK, OK, OK. No. Yes, I don't think anybody is disputing the claim of verbal abuse. I think we're both verbally abusive to each knowledge. Okay. No. Yes, I don't think anybody is disputing the claim of verbal abuse. I think they were both verbally abusive to each other. Right. People that were interviewed on this said Nancy always told Bob that he was worthless and couldn't keep a job and couldn't fix anything around the house and all this.

Yeah. Like that's what all of her post-it notes to him said. It's a real ax to the manhood. It is. It definitely a real ax to the manhood. It is. It definitely is. So yeah, I don't think anybody's contesting that there was verbal abuse in the house, but definitely. But it's like the physical abuse is a big question mark.

The physical abuse is a big question mark. Yes. Okay, okay. Yes. Detectives were inclined to believe Jeff. Mm-hmm. Nancy did have some bruising on her arms and legs but it didn't

match with what you would typically find in a case of spousal abuse. Typically you would see bruising to the face and torso in spousal abuse. I guess statistically that's where it starts before you branch out to areas that are less easy to cover.

Is the face easy to cover? I don't know that it less easy to cover oh okay is the face easy to cover i don't know that it's easy to cover but it's i okay usually typically apparently according to this snapped episode okay most often the first place that is hit but nancy had no bruises on her face or torso they were all on her arms and legs. The police suspected that Nancy had either sustained those bruises while trying to corral Bob's large body after his murder or that they were self-inflicted to make her story more plausible. Eww. Yeah. I hate these. I hate these. I hate these.

This is reminding me of your blue-eyed butcher case where I'm just like super uncomfortable the whole time. Because if someone's truly a victim, then I don't want to be an asshole to the victim. No, absolutely. But man, I don't know. Okay, continue. But man, I don't know. Okay, continue. The autopsy results would only make police question Nancy's explanation of events further. The medical examiner counted 13 hatchet wounds, 4 slashing wounds, and 18 stab wounds to Bob Seaman's body.

There was just one big problem. All of the wounds had been made by someone standing behind Bob. Yeah. Yeah. This had not been the fight for her life that Nancy had described. It appeared it had been a sneak attack. And the medical examiner said Bob was likely unconscious after the first or second blow, but Nancy kept going. Yeah.

And then detectives uncovered more evidence that they felt showed that this was a premeditated, thought-out attack rather than the fight for her life that Nancy had described detectives found the receipt for the hatchet it was purchased from home depot on sunday may 9th detectives went to the store to check the surveillance tapes and sure enough there on mother's day night was n Nancy Seaman buying the hatchet. She walked into the store, went directly to the hatchets,

held some in her hands, checked them for heft, checked out, and went home. Oh, my gosh. It proved premeditation, said detectives. So they showed this clip of it she's so creepy she is she just walks right in walks to the hatchets yeah that feels pretty good checks out i know what i need thank you very much yeah oh yeah within two days of the discovery of bob seaman's body his wife of 31 years nancy Seaman, was charged with first-degree murder.

Nancy Seaman's trial began November 30, 2004. In opening arguments, the prosecutor told the jury that they would prove that Nancy had killed Bob in a cold-blooded attack. They said the evidence would prove that Bob was kneeling down, working on his prized classic Mustang when Nancy snuck up behind him and brutally murdered him. In the defense's opening statement, Nancy's attorney admitted that she had killed her husband, but said it had been in a fight for her life after years of abuse. It was self-defense. Yes, the act was a monstrous act, the defense told the jury, but that doesn't make the person who did it a monster. The prosecution countered the defense's claims at self-defense, saying that Nancy had only claimed self-defense after she'd

been arrested. She didn't call the police after the attack and say, Oh my God, I had to kill my husband or he was going to kill me. What do you think about that? I'm struggling with this. Yeah. Because I'm trying to put myself in someone's shoes like that where like you've been

married to someone for decades and let's say let's say he he has been violent with you yeah so you know what he's capable of yeah you know that your marriage is on this like uphill climb to something really really bad. And maybe he's even threatened. Yeah. Like, you're not going to get out of this alive. And because of your history with him, you believe that. Right.

And so then, yeah, you might decide, I'm going to kill him first. Mm-hmm. And so, yeah, you have to sneak up behind him, because how else are you going to do it? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, you have to sneak up behind him because how else are you going to do it? And to me that, I don't know. Yeah. I mean, we had, oh gosh, there was a woman just in my neighborhood who was murdered a couple months ago. And she'd, I think she'd been married to the guy. She did all the,

you know, so-called right things about getting the restraining order, blah, blah, blah, blah. He murdered her. The restraining order was in her front pocket.

Yeah. And so maybe, maybe in some of these situations, people feel like this is the only option. Yeah. My only option is to kill him. But then there's the other thing of like maybe nancy was a shithead and maybe like she just maybe she just did this

yeah and i don't know yeah i don't know that there's any way to know no what do you think i'll tell you what I think afterwards. Okay. Okay. So the prosecution's first witness was the medical examiner. The medical examiner was called to testify about the nature of Bob's wounds. He told the jury that not only were they all made from behind, but that Bob did not have a single defensive wound on him. Next, they played the Home Depot surveillance video that showed Nancy entering Home Depot, walking directly to the hatchet, and purchasing one. So creepy. Yeah.

Just hours before Bob's murder. Yeah. Then, the prosecution called their star witness, Jeff Seaman, Bob and Nancy's oldest son. He told the jury that his mother was never an abused wife. There was never any evidence of it at all. And he spent tons of time at the family home.

He lived near it still and spent every Sunday with his mother. It simply wasn't true. He told the jury. My father did not abuse my mother. Wow. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty powerful. Yeah. Although I will say stuff can happen in your own home and you not know about it. Yeah. Yeah. I still think that's powerful though i do too then it was the defense's turn and they had a star witness of their own greg seaman bob and nancy's youngest son he testified to just the opposite of jeff he told the jury that his mother was a victim of abuse, that he constantly saw bruises on her arms and legs, and had even seen her with a black eye on one occasion. He testified that his father was volatile and aggressive, and that he himself had been a victim of his abuse a time or two. It was contradictory testimony.

Who was the jury to believe? In a final attempt to sway the jury their way, the defense called Nancy Seaman to testify in her own defense. I don't know. She said that she had been a victim of Bob's abuse for 31 years. But even through all of that, she never wanted him dead. It was an accident. A horrible accident.

No one should have been dead that morning. No one should have been dead, she said through tears. See, I don't think you can say that i mean like and so she's on the stand and her face is all scrunched up and she's like oh there's not a single tear like an eye drop around not not a single tear falling oh gosh well her lawyer should not have put her on the stand no because. Because you can say a lot of things. And I think your only argument here is that she was abused for decades. And finally she felt like it was her life or his. You cannot argue that it was an accident.

No. The evidence doesn't match that. Not at was an accident. No. The evidence doesn't match that. Not at all. Yeah. No. In their closing arguments, the prosecution offered one last detail that they had been holding back. The hatchet came with a safety cover over the blade. This couldn't have been an accident, they told the jury.

over the blade. This couldn't have been an accident, they told the jury. Nancy had had the forethought to remove the safety cover from the hatchet before using it to murder Bob. So, her story of accidentally, or, you know, climbing

up and she grabbed the hatchet and she was just swinging it around. There's no possible way that that was true. Do you own hatchets at your house? No. No? Do you?

Yeah, we have. You do? Yeah. No, I don't have a hatchet. Ours doesn't have a cover on it. That's the only reason I bring it up is because I, like, yeah, those should come with covers. Yeah. I don't know what happened to ours.

I'm just saying this for my inevitable defense trial. Sorry. Having it on record. Alright, marking that down. If I ever do get a trial, this podcast will work against me.

Definitely. Okay, I'll quit interrupting you. I'm sorry. No, you're totally fine. In early December 2004, a jury found Nancy Seaman. Guilty, for sure. Guilty of first-degree murder. And she was sentenced to the mandatory sentence of life in prison.

The jury said that the deciding factor to them was the two sons' testimony. Oh. They found the older brother's testimony more believable. He was at the house regularly with Bob and Nancy while the younger brother was off at college. They just felt he had a better idea of what went on in the house. Hmm.

Hmm. Eight months after the verdict, the judge, Judge Jack McDonald, made a surprise ruling. He reduced her conviction to second degree murder, despite the jury's findings. Wow. He felt there was not enough evidence to prove premeditation. The prosecution appealed the decision though, and her initial conviction was reinstated. Yeah.

To this day, now retired judge Jack McDonald is haunted by this case and has fought for clemency for Nancy Seaman. He does not believe that the jury got the full story. Initially, the defense wanted to call an expert witness to talk about battered spouse syndrome. Yes, thank you. Thank you. I feel like that's the missing piece, too. The defense wanted to call an expert witness to talk about battered spouse syndrome. Yes, thank you, thank you. I feel like that's the missing piece too. But they were extremely limited on what evidence they could present because battered spouse syndrome is not a legal defense under Michigan law.

Well, that's just stupid. It is just stupid. So an expert was able to testify that battered spouse syndrome is a real thing. But that was it. They could not testify to how it pertained to the case. Oh. Or testify if Nancy exhibited any signs of being a victim of battered spouse syndrome. So literally all they could say was, there's this thing called battered syndrome thanks bye yes

that's all they could say well that's not helpful at all not at all you're you have to assume that the jury is knowledgeable on that subject which is ridiculous yep wow to this date nancy has exhausted all of her peels her appeals and her only hope remains in being granted clemency there is an active petition for her to be granted clemency she has i mean there's the chance of her being paroled as well yeah um but yeah the judge believes that this is a miscarriage of justice I mean, there's the chance of her being paroled as well. But yeah, the judge believes that this is a miscarriage of justice. And he believes that she is a victim.

I'm kind of with him. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I definitely could see it. I 100% could see it. I don't understand how the two sons could have such different views of what happened in the house. You don't? No.

I think that's common. Yeah. For two siblings to have very different views of their upbringing. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. And I do wonder somewhat about like the mentality of I guess I'd just be interested in Jeff's mentality of like, like, what's his relationship like with his spouse and all that? if Bob is such an abusive and angry and volatile person, how is it possible that Jeff was never the victim of any of that? Oh, I think it's extremely possible.

Because I think a lot of abusive people, they can turn on the charm, they can turn off the charm, they can decide who's going to be a winner and who's going to be a loser. And so, yeah. can turn off the charm they can decide who's going to be a winner and who's going to be a loser and so yeah you think he would have been able to keep it to where he only abused two of the people in the house and never took anything out on the third person i'm gonna say yes with a little qualification that I think if you grew up in a home where people are constantly fighting and constantly saying nasty, nasty things to each other, your definition of what's normal. And what normal is. You're probably you're totally right. So I hear Jeff saying, oh, it was normal.

And I'm thinking. I bet not. Yeah, I bet to you, to oh, it was normal. And I'm thinking, I bet not. Yeah. I bet to you maybe. Right. But I think you compare that to like a healthy relationship and probably not. Yeah. I could see that.

I don't know. I don't know if she's. I mean, I think that there was definitely abuse in the house. Yeah. At the very least, there was verbal abuse in the house. Yeah. 100%. I believe that. But I also believe that it was on both parts the house. Yeah. At the very least, there was verbal abuse in the house. 100%, I believe that. But I also believe that it was on both parts.

Sure. Sure. So who knows? Nancy remains in prison today. Jeff and Greg no longer have any contact with each other. And Jeff has no contact with his mother. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

That's sad yeah yep oh it's a tough one that was a really good one though yeah it's very interesting and i think that the fact that battered spouse syndrome is not a viable defense that's under michigan law that is nuts to me yeah because It's a real fucking thing. It's a real thing. And it's her only defense. Yeah. Can't say self-defense because, I mean, that's just not traditional self-defense.

It's not. No. Ugh. Yikes. Yikes is right. Ugh. Ooh. Well, yeah, that was not lighthearted in the least.

No. I said semen a bunch of times. Yeah. Somehow that didn't do the trick. Okay. Are you ready for mine? Mm-hmm. Let me start.

This is going to sound similar to last week, where I was like, there's tons of conflicting details on this story, and I did my best. Is that just how you start every episode now? Sorry if the information's wrong. It's not my fault. But shut up and don't tell me if I'm wrong. No, this one is like double time. Because this one's an even older case.

We're talking 1700s. What? It's a great case, though. I had to do it. It's so good. Okay. Okay. Unscrunch your shoulders.

It's going to be fine. Why am I repeating myself? Nobody cares, Kristen. Okay, okay. Tell us the information. Nobody cares. Start talking. Here we go.

Nobody gives a shit if you get four details wrong. I'm just, you know what it is? It's being married to Norman. Yeah. And knowing the number of people who, like, come to him, like, actually, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. And, ugh.

But we don't really have people like that't people like that no we've got excellent listeners yeah who never correct us ever ever no yeah they do but nicely yeah they do do it nicely you know that's a big thing i don't think we've ever been corrected in like a really self-righteous nasty way no we appreciate you appreciate you. Yeah. Okay. Here we go. Before the Revolutionary War, slavery was legal pretty much all over the United States. This is the story of how that changed. Elizabeth Freeman, a.k.a. Bette or Mum Bette,

was born around 1744 into slavery in Claverack, New York. When she was a child, the douche who owned her... Oh, shit, you know what? I realized last week I called this a Boston case.

No, it's just a Massachusetts case. Oh, wow. You know what? That is some Midwest trash right there. That... Yeah, over there in New England somewhere, it all counts as Boston. Yep, that blob over there. It's okay.

They don't know where Missouri is, so, you know, I'm fine. Wow! Shit. No, okay, I did have... The views and opinions expressed by Kristen do not match the views and opinions expressed by Brandi. Okay, for real. I totally think that people in Boston can pick out Missouri on a map. I do!

Kristen, don't forehead me. Okay, okay. Let me tell you something. So my junior year of college, you know, I was living in Boston. Okay. And you know how, like, you move to a different place and, like, in my head, still, Florida is always down. Yeah. You know, New York is always up.

Because it doesn't matter where I am. I am always in my head in the direct center of the continental United States. Okay. So I was with a group of friends, and I said something about going up to New York, which is incorrect. It's down from Boston. And so they were all like, oh, what? Because, you know, to them, that's like a crazy error. How could you make an error like that?

So then I got annoyed, and I was like, all right, you guys, point to Kansas on a map. Can you do it? No, they fucking couldn't do it because to them, it's all a blob. Oh, my gosh. We're right in the middle. Smack dab. Smack dab. Fly over country.

That's what those snobs call us. Hmm. All right. Sorry. No, I like you people in New England. Shit. Should I cut like all of this? No, no.

Please not alienate a portion of our listeners, Kristen. The 12 listeners in New England. Okay. We love you all. We love you. Okay. So, you know what I read? I read one paragraph.

Oh, great. And then went on a rant about how people don't know where Missouri and Kansas are. You know what? I think most of college was just me being defensive about where I come from. When she was a child, the douche who owned her gave her as a gift to his adult daughter hannah and her new husband john ashley so elizabeth went to go work as a slave at oh 117 cooper hill road sheffield massachusetts good luck spelling sheffield how do you spell it?

I don't know. I mean, I probably got it wrong in my notes here. I feel like every time I try to spell... I spelled it right. Oh, okay. Every time I try to spell a New England town, Google's like, did you mean... It's actually spelled phonetically. Really?

You knew there was two Fs? Yeah. How would you spell Sheffield? Okay, well, don't worry about it. All right. was two f's all right yeah how would you spell sheffield okay well don't worry about it all right so yeah this looks very old-timey oh it is old time it's big and it's old it's very big elizabeth never learned to read or write but she had a lot of courage and a strong sense of right and wrong at one point around 1780 when elizabeth would have been like in her mid-30s hannah ashley flipped out about something apparently a young slave named lizzie who some sources just call her

a young slave other sources say this was maybe elizabeth's daughter others say it could have been elizabeth's sister but at rate, it was someone who Lizzie obviously was cared about and was looking out for. So apparently Lizzie took some dough from like a big bowl and made like a little Wheaton cake for herself. I don't know what a Wheaton cake is. It sounds disgusting, but she took a little and made herself like a little snack. Hannah got super angry. She called Lizzie a thief. Then she grabbed a hot iron shovel and raised it above her head.

The thing was so blazing hot that the metal was red. Ugh. Hannah brought it down to hit her. Ugh! Elizabeth saw what was happening and ran over she threw her arm out so that she took the blow from that oh god

right on her arm oh god so the hot shovel hit her arm left I mean a horrible horrible gash it cut through to the bone oh my gosh so again conflicting sources some said that her arm that arm was basically unusable for the rest of her life others say it was unusable for a long time but she had this nasty scar for the rest of her life.

That much is for sure. But she used the scar to her advantage. I fucking love this. She knew how awful her arm looked. And she purposely never covered it. and she purposely never covered it. The mark on her arm was a constant reminder to her owner about what she'd done, and she didn't want to cover it up and make nice and be like,

oh, that didn't happen. So Elizabeth's favorite thing was when they'd be out in town and people would see her arm and they'd ask what happened. Usually Hannah was right there with her, and Elizabeth would just her arm and they'd ask what happened usually hannah was right there with her and elizabeth would just say ask mrs and of course hannah was super uncomfortable of course because she wanted to be a huge dick bag in her own home but she didn't want everyone else to know about him. Elizabeth hated Hannah. Hannah was cruel. She thought a little more highly of Hannah's husband, John Ashley, though. John Ashley was a judge in Berkshire County. He graduated from Yale Law. He was rich. He owned land. The dude was a big deal in Massachusetts. And according to Elizabeth, he wasn't needlessly cruel the way

his wife was. But still, he felt like he had the right to own a bunch of humans, so how great could he be? But you know, just saying. Shortly after Hannah hit Elizabeth with the hot shovel, Elizabeth reached a breaking point. She hated being a slave. She'd always hated being a slave. She'd do anything to be free. And ironically, she was surrounded by all these people who loved talking about freedom. Okay, this is nuts. So the Ashley House was a hub for talks about breaking free from the British. John Ashley and his fancy friends were constantly having discussions about freedom and liberty, and Elizabeth overheard all these conversations. In 1773, just a few years before Hannah hit Elizabeth with that shovel,

in that exact house, John Ashley and his little buddies wrote and signed the Sheffield Declaration. The first declaration in the Sheffield Declaration is, Mankind in a state of nature are equal, free, and independent of each other, and have a right to the undisturbed enjoyment of their lives, their liberty, and property. Three years later, the Declaration of Independence was adopted, and it used pretty similar language. So this house, I believe, is now like a historic site because this was such a big deal that that was drafted in this house. Back to 1780, though. Hannah, the duchess, just hit Elizabeth with the shovel, and Elizabeth had enough. One day there was a public gathering in Sheffield, and Elizabeth showed up, and someone read a powerful document to the crowd.

It was the Massachusetts Constitution. Hot off the presses, fresh as a daisy. Here's Article 1 from the Massachusetts Constitution. Hot off the presses, fresh as a daisy. Here's Article 1 from the Massachusetts Constitution. All men are born free and equal and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights, among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberty, that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness. So Elizabeth hears these words and she takes them to heart and she thinks to herself, those

apply to me. So she walked four miles to the home of a young lawyer named Theodore Sedgwick. I don't believe this house is a museum. I think it's still in the possession of the Sedgwick family, but it's like this house that's still standing, and they've built onto it, so it's kind of like Frankenstein, but cool looking. And she said to him,

I heard that paper read yesterday that says all men are created equal and that every man has a right to freedom i'm not a dumb critter won't the law give me my freedom theodore agreed to represent her yeah it's so cool but he also called in tapping reeve who was the founder of the litchfield Law School in Litchfield, Connecticut. The fucking first law school in the United States. Wow. That's cool. Also, Tapping is kind of a cool name.

Is that his first name? It's his first name. It's not a nickname? No. Tapping. Tapping, huh? Not a fan? Not going to put that in a baby book, wait for somewhere?

No, no. I don't think so. Okay. Evidently, you feel exactly the way everyone else feels, because that's not a name anymore. Did not tick off. So Theodore was like, this is a crazy big case. I'm going to need you to back me up.

Right away, Theodore and Tapping were concerned about their ability to win the case. It said right in the Constitution that men are created equal and women were not mentioned at all. And here they were representing an enslaved woman. So they decided, OK, maybe we'll have a better shot if we also represent an enslaved man. So they just go over to John Ashley's, which, by the way, Theodore and John Ashley were friends, so I can't imagine how awkward this whole thing was. Do you think he called him Ted?

Maybe. He was like, hey, Ted, what are you doing here? And he's like, hey, I'm plucking one of your slaves. Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm going to try to give them rights. Yeah. And John Ashley was like, don't let my wife hear about it, she'll come at you with a shovel. What'd you do, you, Ted?

So a man named Brom, who was also, again, one of the Ashley slaves, agreed to be part of the case. Things started rolling in May of 1781 when Theodore and Tapping got a writ of replevin. I've never heard that word before in my life. Are you ready for some copy and pasted stuff here? Can't wait. Which is apparently something you get when someone is currently in possession of illegal or wrongfully withheld property.

I knew that off the top of my head. I'm sure you did. Yeah, I didn't have to google it or anything. Super confident about my pronunciation of writ of relevin too. Mm-hmm. So Theodore and Tapping were like,

yo, John Ashley, you need to release Elizabeth and Brom to the sheriff because they aren't your property. Yeah.

And John Ashley was like, ha ha ha ha ha, no fucking way. So they went to court. On August 21st. They didn't say, let's go to court. No August 21st. They didn't say, let's go to court. No, that's really hacky.

And, you know, we did that in the beginning. Do you want to know the truth? What? I have it in another place in the script. I didn't want to do it twice. Okay, so they go to court. Yeah. On August 21st, 1781, Theodore and Tapping argued their case in the Court of Common Pleas.

The case was super unique. By that point in Massachusetts history, about 30 enslaved people had sued the douche lords who owned them. But every time these cases went to court, it was about ownership. It was for stuff like, hey hey he said i could be free when i turned 20 now i'm 22 yeah he's not setting me free or i was supposed to be free when douche lord the first died but now douche lord the second is saying that i belong to him so it was all kind of cases like that the case of elizabeth and brahm was unique because they weren't trying to say john and hannah ashley don't legally own us they were trying to say john and hannah ashley

shouldn't legally own us yeah theodore and tapping were like hey we're not here to say that john ashley broke some specific law We're just saying that the Massachusetts Constitution outlawed slavery. Yeah. So it's over. So we're just, you know, sorry, we're done. Goodbye. Yeah. The next day, the jury reached their decision.

And they sided with Elizabeth and Brom. Wow. I know. I know. I know. I'm so shocked. Yeah, this is like poop yourself level shock. This is crazy. The court freed the two of them and ordered John Ashley to pay them each 30 shillings

in damages, which I don't know if that's good or bad. It sounds terrible, but you know, it was the 1700s, so who knows? And nearly six pounds in court costs john and hannah ashley were pissed yeah i bet they were like we are super into freedom and liberty and justice for all of the white people i was gonna say, not that into it. I mean, oh, the irony, right? Like, that these people were like, the British are awful, and we deserve to be free.

Hey, slaves. Yeah, I mean, ridiculous. So they appealed their decision all the way to the Supreme Judicial Court! Wow, you didn't... Hey, the supreme court didn't invent it it wasn't invented yet man doesn't have the same ring does it not so i think the supreme court came about in

like i mean it was just years away yeah like less than 10 years but know, they took it as high as they could take it. All right. All right. But as they did that, there was another case working its way through the Massachusetts court system. Okay. So we're going to talk about that now. That case was brought by an enslaved man named Kowak Walker. Kowak was born into slavery. How are we spelling Kowak? Oh, so many different ways.

You want to bring up something that's also controversial. I saw his name spelled three different ways. Oh, shit. Actually, four if you count what was surely a typo. But I'm going with Q-U-O-C-K. Okay. So, I don't know. The douche lord who originally bought Kowak and his family was named James Caldwell.

James Caldwell died when Kowak was 10. So Kowak then belonged to the douche queen, Mrs. Caldwell. And she was like, hey, pal, don't worry. When you turn 21, you'll have your freedom. But then she gets married again. And this time it's to a super douche named Nathaniel Jennison. And then, when Kowak is just 19 years old, the douche queen dies. Oh my gosh!

And of course, super douche Nathaniel... People sure died a lot in the 1700s. I know. I mean, like, that had to be so frustrating. Oh, you'll get your freedom in five years, and it's like, okay, well, are we writing this down? Are you gonna get tuberculosis? five years. And it's like, okay, well, are we writing this down? Are you going to get tuberculosis? You know, who knows? Man.

So, of course, super douche Nathaniel Jenison was like, oh, you were promised your freedom? That must have been exciting for a minute. That's not going to happen, though. No. Yeah. So it was horrible for kawak and finally in 1781 when kawak was 28 years old he couldn't take it anymore he ran to the farm of the original douche lord's

brothers and he either said to them please help me or can i work here for money and they i believe they were like yeah sure but super douche tracked him down oh no and he beat the shit out of quok and locked him up for hours by that point quok had had enough so he said you know what super douche let's go to court see isn't that a great place for it and boy did they ever kowak sued nathaniel jenison for assault and battery it was the first in a series of legal battles between these two and others in their first case worcester county lawyers levi lincoln and caleb strong represented kok. Their argument was simple. Kwok had been severely injured. And Nathaniel the Super Douche had no right to injure Kwok

because Kwok wasn't his property. Also, you shouldn't be allowed to just injure people, but, you know, hey, whatever, 1700s. They said, look, he was promised his freedom at age 21 or 25. Depends on what you're reading. Yeah. Now he's 28. He's free.

And also the brand spanking new Massachusetts Constitution says that all men are equal now. So therefore, slavery is no longer a thing. And by the way, there was this case with Elizabeth Freeman. Don't know if you heard about it, but. Yeah. It said that slavery is gone. So we're going to cite that case as precedent. The jury agreed. They said, yeah, Kowak is a free man. Sorry, Nathaniel. Not only is this man not your slave, you now

owe him 50 pounds, which that sounds sizable yeah i don't know nathaniel super douche jenison was stunned by the verdict but he thought it over and reflected and realized whoa what was i thinking yeah that i could own another person really thinking that i had the right to beat another man and enslave him he did not think any of this oh my god he turned over a new leaf he did not oh he did he was like what have i done no he went home and beat all of his slaves yeah probably oh how dare you i can't believe you how dare you lulled me into that i do kind of feel bad because the look on your face was like people can change no so that did not happen that did not happen at all so uncalled for he did not go from like beating someone up and imprisoning them to like oh my god you're right so he sued the caldwell brothers

those were the guys who quack ran away to nathaniel sued them for interfering with his property or according to another source deprivation of the benefit of his servant the suit took place at the same time as the other lawsuit. But on this issue, the jury sided with Nathaniel and the Caldwell brothers were ordered to pay him 25 pounds. I do not understand this at all. How they could decide on the one hand that Kowak was a free man. And at the other, well, they're two different juries, so... No, it was the same day, same jury. Oh, it was the same?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's important information, Kristen. Well, you know what? I think it was the same jury. Oh, God. Here's the thing. Information is scarce on this. But anyway,

we've got these two super weird verdicts that blatantly contradict each other. So both, both sides appealed. It's really interesting. I assume it was the same jury. I assume it was all, if it was all one day,

I assume it all happened at the same time, but maybe it didn't. Maybe it had to have been two different juries. Cause how could you reach this? Yeah. That's the only way it makes sense to me is if it was two different juries. Yeah. Yeah. Because if you found,

okay, they interfered with his property, then you can't have also decided, okay, slavery is illegal now. Okay. So we've got these two very different verdicts. Both sides appealed. Yeah. But everyone's favorite super douche had his appeal thrown out because he didn't, like, show up with the right paperwork or something.

So, you know, ha, ha, ha. Too bad, so sad. But the Caldwells did show up with the right paperwork, and they won their appeal. Kowak Walker was a free man. Therefore, they had the right to employ him. Meanwhile, Nathaniel the Super Douche is still mad. He petitions the general court to reinstate his case. He's like, you guys, I have the right paperwork this time. I swear I've got my act

together. But they just sort of ignored him. Then the attorney general decided, you know what? I'm actually going to prosecute Nathaniel Jenison for criminal assault and battery against Kowak Walker. So he did. Nathaniel got indicted in 1781, and in the spring of 1783, he went to trial. Wow. At the end of arguments, Chief Justice William Cushing told the jury, slavery is in my judgment as effectively abolished as it can be by the granting of rights and privileges wholly incompatible and repugnant to its existence. The court are therefore fully of the opinion that perpetual servitude can no longer be tolerated in our government Wow.

Yeah, so basically like, hey jury. Yeah. You know what to do now. Yeah. The jury found Nathaniel Superduce Jenison guilty. He was ordered to pay Kowak Walker 40 shillings. So that was a big tangent.

Yeah. But it was a relevant tangent because when Elizabeth Freeman won her case against John Ashley, he appealed. The other thing I'm thinking that is just now occurring to me is if the Attorney General decided,

you know what, I'm going to go after Nathaniel Jenison for assault and battery. I wonder if they were worried that the attorney general might also go after Hannah Ashley for assault and battery. Maybe. And maybe they decided, okay, we'll withdraw our appeal for a number of reasons. One of them being we don't want to draw any more attention to ourselves. Yeah, absolutely.

He thought for sure that he had a right to own another person. But when Kowak Walker's first lawsuit hit the courts, John Ashley saw that Kowak won that case, and he realized, my appeal doesn't have a shot in hell. He withdrew his appeal. Okay, well, that kind of throws my theory there to shit, because the timeline doesn't match it. But anyway, I hope that scared the poop out of Hannah. Both.

Yes. I bet it's both reasons. Okay. Elizabeth and Brom had their freedom and no one was trying to take it away from them. So here's what sucks. You can't find any information on what happened to Brom. Yeah. So that's kind of lame because I'd love to know more about him.

But. Do we want to make up his future? Yeah. it he did you think he opened a oh i bet he became a cobbler he made amazing shoes okay so i'm making a sad face because i'm thinking probably what happened was he was just someone's servant right i mean he just no for but was actually paid still no okay oh are we like dreaming yeah we're dreaming for him okay he opened brahm's shoes he opened coffin pits and then later anthony burns went and worked at coffee pits yeah for like that dude's son yeah whatever yeah whatever works with the timeline okay well that was a happy story he's probably somebody's servant now well probably yeah probably but that

is damn depressing yeah tell us about fucking elizabeth okay so elizabeth went on to lead a pretty good life after the ruling in her favor elizabeth who until that point had been called bet or mum bet by the way i called her elizabeth this whole time because immediately after this lawsuit she changed her name to elizabeth freeman so i'm like hey if that's what you want to go by, I totally get it, especially when everyone's calling you Mom Ben. Yeah. So after the ruling, John Ashley kept reaching out to Elizabeth, asking her to come back and work for him for money this time. No, fuck off. Exactly.

That's exactly what she said. Can you imagine? Yeah. Hey, no hurt feelings from me. Can you imagine? Yeah. Hey, no hard feelings from me. You know how I had you as a slave for decades, really enjoyed you.

How about I give you some shillings? Absolutely not. Fuck right off. Yeah, exactly. Did you see what happened to my arm? Yeah. So she said no every time. Good, good for her.

Instead, she went to work for a family she actually liked. Theodore Sedgwick, the man she'd turned to when she wanted to sue for her freedom, hired her to work in his home. She was the governess to his children as his career skyrocketed. So this is nuts. Theodore became a delegate to the Continental Congress. He became a U.S. representative. He became a senator. He was the fourth speaker of the House. Wow.

Some said fifth. Some said sixth. Who cares? He was the speaker of the House. He was an early one. Then he became a judge on the Massachusetts Supreme Court. Ooh.

Yeah. Elizabeth worked in the Sedgwick home for a long time. When all the Sedgwick children grew up, she moved into her own house in Stockbridge, Massachusetts. She lived near her daughter, her grandchildren, and her great-grandchildren. Elizabeth couldn't read or write, but she was an excellent storyteller, and she often talked about her life, particularly the many years that she spent as a slave. She said, anytime while I was a slave, if one minute's freedom had been offered to me,

and I had been told I must die at the end of that minute, I would have taken it just to stand one minute on God's earth, a free woman. Ah, that just gave me chills i know oh my gosh how fucking dare you i told you i had not cried yet today it's happening um i cried researching i bet and we're gonna get to the part that made me cry oh fuck okay okay elizabeth died on december 28th 1829 she was about 85 years old wow i know it's a long fucking life i know everyone else is dropping like flies standing tall she was buried in the sedgwick family plot and and she remains the only non-Sedgwick to be buried there. That's awesome. This is the part that made me cry. It's what they wrote on her tombstone. Okay,

I can handle it. Her tombstone reads, Elizabeth Freeman, also known by the name Mumbet, died on December 28, 1829. Her supposed age was 85 years. She was born a slave and remained a slave for nearly 30 years. She could neither read nor write, yet in her own sphere she had no superior or equal. She neither wasted time nor property, she never violated a trust, nor failed to perform a duty. In every situation of domestic trial, she was the most efficient helper and the tenderest friend good mother farewell how fucking big is this tombstone it's huge it is huge that's amazing it's super touching how did they fit all that on there um can you google it look it up the sedgwick so the sedgwick family is a major american family

with a lot of history and she's they call it the sedgwick pie because of the way their graves are laid out here okay said elizabeth freeman tombstone oh yeah it is big oh yeah i mean they yeah that thing it's fit that's a lot of writing on that puppy. Yeah. I mean, they spared no expense. No. The lawsuits of Elizabeth Freeman and Brahm, along with those of Kowak Walker, sent a big message to enslaved people and to the douche lords who sought to enslave them.

Their lawsuits showed that if a person enslaved in Massachusetts wanted to sue for freedom, they'd probably win. By 1790, just nine years after Elizabeth's lawsuit, the federal census recorded no slaves living in Massachusetts. And that's the story of how an enslaved woman helped end slavery in Massachusetts. That is amazing. Isn't that cool? Yeah. So I do have one thing to add to this. Okay.

That kind of sucks. So you're going to give us a downer? Um, I think it depends on how you take it. So let me prepare myself. Fuck. All right. Sedgwick. Does that last name sound familiar at all?

Yeah. Who are you thinking of? I don't know. Think actress. Keira Sedgwick? Yeah. Yeah. This was her fourth great-grandfather.

Oh. So she was on an episode of Finding Your Roots. Have you ever watched that show? No, but I'm familiar with it. Oh, my God. So Finding Your Roots, Have you ever watched that show? No, but I'm familiar with it. Oh, my God. So, Finding Your Roots, PBS, Henry Louis Gates Jr., he delves into people's family trees,

and I, Norman makes fun of me, I cry every single time. It's just like, there's something about it, it's just very emotional. So I found out that they'd done an episode on her and i was like well i've got to watch that i'd already written the script and everything i gotta say it was not

the best episode because like her family is so famous and established that like they weren't really uncovering yeah anything like it was stuff she already knew which is lame as far as those episodes go but they did uncover one big thing. So, you know, they're obviously very proud of Theodore Sedgwick. Yeah. Because, you know, he represented this woman. And by all accounts, it seemed like, you know, she had a good life and all this stuff. He owned slaves.

Yeah. Yeah. he owned slaves. Yeah. So they found, for this episode, they found evidence of him purchasing a slave just a couple years before this lawsuit went down, and they said that he had others. So that was a shock to the family

and obviously disappointing. But I don't know. The episode was kind of interesting because, I don't know, Henry Louis Gates Jr. kind of went into I don't know. Henry Louis Gates Jr. Kind of went into the idea of like, you know, well,

did the guy change his mind? You just, you don't know what happened, which it sucks because it'd be interesting to know what, what went on for, to go from one year buying someone to not that. I mean, I want to say I wish I'd written it down. It was just a couple of years before he met with this enslaved woman and was like, you know what?

It's not right. Yeah. I'm going to represent you. Yeah. That's super interesting. Yeah. So there you go. That's the story.

Who's Kira Sedgwick married to? Kevin Bacon. Nice. Wow. so there you go that's the story who's kira sedgwick married to kevin bacon nice wow well i have to admit on the episode they did two celebrities kira sedgwick and kevin bacon all right yeah turns out they're related to each other oh but like far enough back that it's not creepy very good don't worry about it. But yeah, it's funny. So you haven't seen, okay, you've got to watch. No. They did an episode with Andy Samberg.

So his mom was adopted. And she has tried multiple times over the course of her life to find who her birth parents were. And she's like hired people. And people have kind of gotten got close to the answer but could never find the answer on this episode they found her out who her birth parents were it was like oh i was sobbing just sobbing it's like i like andy sandberg so much and he was like you know he didn't come out and say it this bluntly, but he's like, yeah, this show really isn't my thing.

I'm here for my mom. I know that you guys have the resources and this is something that matters to my mom. So hopefully we can get this figured out. Super cool. Yeah. That's awesome. So that's the story. Made you cry.

Made me get a little mist misty that was the goal what do you got on your show notes there for us today oh i don't think you're gonna want to know what i have on my show notes oh no here we go here we go i think we should talk about what your dog did to me okay okay first of all uh-huh boy you're coming out swinging here i'd like to say he's never in his life done that before and oh this is my fault you need to look at yourself figure out why that happened why don't you explain to our gentle listeners what But you're my precious little baby bulldog. Oliver is a huge fan of Kristen's. I mean, who isn't? Some people are team Brandy.

Others are team Kristen. He loves her so much. He literally did something he's never done in his life before. He got a little too excited with kristin i don't even it was the craziest thing ever it was the weirdest thing it was super weird you guys he humped me in case you're not putting this together he freaking humped me kind of humped the air next to you okay well i was i was disturbed either way he is like it's disturbing he's the sweetest he is he's the sweetest little bulldog i don't know what got him so excited but literally my presence he is neutered and everything and he never did that even before he was neutered so i don't know what the fuck you did to my belt my poor bulldog

you think i shouldn't have come over dressed as a milk bone? You think that was it? Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way. He was really ashamed of it afterwards. I know he was. He was. It was really sad. It was kind of sad.

It was kind of sad. He sat there and pouted. He was totally ashamed. Well, I was traumatized. No, I love your dogs. Oliver just loves me too much. He loves you a lot. Had to express that love physically.

So what's going on? You got anything in your show notes? Nothing. I have nothing, Kristen. Okay. anything in your show notes nothing i have nothing kristin okay you know when we got together this week we spent our time watching a special on the btk we did serial killer which yeah you know in case you guys think that this is just something we only do for the podcast uh no no no no we were just watching tv got some free time on a sunday night watch that special on

btk i mean oh the irony there's there's nothing i didn't learn anything new did you know i didn't learn anything but we gotta watch it yeah k's on yeah yeah had to watch it yeah and we both watched the 2020 episode about btk yep he's uh his daughter looks exactly like him oh i do have show notes they were just in my brain and what were you using when we were talking earlier they were just in my brain have you watched abducted in plain sight no i don't even know what it is. Kristen Michelle Hicks. Yeah. I need you to walk upstairs right now. Turn on Netflix.

It's on Netflix? Fucking watch it. Yes. It's a documentary on Netflix. Oh, my. Holy shit. Your mind is going to turn to fucking jelly. Okay. What is wrong with you?

I'm looking this up right now. 67% on tomatoes. Every time you recommend something, like no one else likes it. Stop. Don't even try. I'm trying. No. 6.8 on IMDB.

Your brain will be jelly. Okay. Okay. I will watch it. Watch it. I will watch it watch it i will watch it right now well no you know my routine we have to do lunch now i can't i can't watch netflix now all right let's go to lunch and then i'm gonna need you to run right home and watch this okay fair holy shit i'm sure i'm sure a good portion of our listeners right now are like losing their minds that you haven't seen this yet because it's a big deal.

Or, you know, like what, 33% of them are like, I saw it and was not a fan. No. Not a fan at all. Not possible. Those are not our listeners. It is not possible. Okay. Yeah.

Oh, one other thing we have to say. We mentioned that we were trying to get to 150 ratings. Thank you, guys. We did it like that. Yeah. You guys are amazing. Yeah. Thank you, guys.

That's so cool. All right. 1,000 now. Get on it. We realized we took too much of a baby step there. Now we're going to leap. No, thank you. Thank you.

We appreciate it. And, you know, we're always leap no thank you thank you appreciate it and you know we're always looking for more of those so if you haven't done it yet we'd appreciate it greatly yeah what the fuck are you waiting for oh god maybe they're like waiting one day i thought we're doing like a good cop bad cop thing i come in with the water yeah and then i slam their head into the table well you're an even worse cop than i thought i thought you would just be the one to take it I come in with the water for them. Yeah. And then I slam their head into the table. Wow, you're an even worse cop than I thought. I thought you would just be the one to take it away once they discarded it. Be like, DNA.

Oh, okay. And I'd still be sitting there with them like, so what was your childhood like? Yeah, I can relate. Mine was rough, too. What was I saying? I don't know. I don't know. Thank't know thank you yeah thank you that's what we're getting at the joy of listeners once again the joy of listeners uh someone has started a discussion on our reddit page oh about favorite moments on the podcast oh and like fuck ups by us so no one's saying i remember when they got it all right no and one of them is that um on the

the teckel case that i did uh lisa teckel and seth we were talking about i said something about some tests came back and um and i like, what did those tests say? And you said, Seth did it. Somebody said that that was their favorite moment. My, okay, you probably already know this. My favorite moment on the podcast by far, I died laughing. Bob Moss, the mob boss. That like about killed me like could not get

it together um for me it's when you talked about the nipple pliers I'm covering them up right now that was terrifying guys if you have a favorite moment where we said something ridiculous please head on over to that reddit reddit page and uh that subreddit and comment about it we'd love to hear them to the number two court yeah podcast and then uh find us on someone else i think created another yeah i think there's another one out there too because we're so can't be held in by one there's too much happening yeah the 50 people who signed up for the one like it was just too much on one subreddit so you know if that's too big a crowd for you go to the other one that's right how many people are there find us on reddit find us on facebook instagram twitter youtube we are all of those places and we are fabulous.

We're somewhere between fabulous and mildly entertaining. Depends on the day, really. And then head on over to iTunes. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned.

And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts for this episode i got my info from the book bentley's miscellany mass.gov wikipedia pbs and mass moments.org and i got my info from an episode of snapped nbc news and wikipedia for a full list of our sources visit lgtcpodcast.com any errors are of course ours but please don't take our word for it go read their stuff