Let's Go To Court! - 60: The Chipotle Lawsuit & Infidelity

Episode Date: March 20, 2019

Jeanette Ortiz was a model Chipotle employee. She’d worked there for 14 years. She had excellent performance reviews. But in early 2015, things got weird. Hundreds of dollars went missing from the restaurant’s safe. A manager came in to review the restaurant’s surveillance footage and claimed the camera had captured Jeanette stealing the money. But had she? Then Brandi tells us about Clara Harris, a woman who thought she had the perfect marriage. Little did Clara know, her husband David Harris was having an affair with a co-worker named Gail Bridges. When the affair finally came out into the open, David told Clara he wanted to work on their marriage. He just needed one last meeting with Gail to end things for good. Clara let him go, but she wasn’t far behind. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Chipotle cuts losses, settles case with ex-worker rather than face big dollar damages,” by Pablo Lopez for the Fresno Bee “Fresno jury says Chipotle owes former manager $7.97 million for wrongful termination,” by Pablo Lopez for the Fresno Bee “Chipotle wrongfully accused a manager of stealing $636. She just won millions in court,” by Rachel Siegel for the Washington Post In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Suburban Madness” by Skip Hollandsworth, Texas Monthly “Clara Harris, Who Killed Cheating Husband With Her Mercedes, Released From Prison” by Skip Hollandsworth, Texas Monthly “Clara Harris” episode Snapped “Murder of David Lynn Harris” wikipedia.org

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Pitts. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about Chipotle. And I'll be talking about a horrible accident? Ooh! Question mark? Question mark! You want to make an announcement right off the top? I sure do. Baby Watch 2019. It's over. We got a baby.

Woo. He's the cutest and the sweetest. So Kyla gave birth and gave birth to a little boy named Henry. So cute. He's so cute. I texted Brandy a picture of him wearing a onesie that she got him and somehow she made it all about her.

So I don't know. That doesn't sound like me at all. Welcome to the world, baby Henry. Yeah. Congratulations, Kyla, Jay, and Alexandra. Yeah. Aw. All right, now let's talk about some crime.

Okay. I got so excited there. No, I'm going to start off right off the bat by disappointing someone very much. Oh. So this week, someone on Twitter reached out to us, and I thought this was just a really funny tweet. So her name's Jessica. She's been following us for a while and she goes darn you let's go to court.

First you went after Subway and now I can't eat there anymore because of what I learned about them. Now it's McDonald's. If you go after Chipotle next I don't know what I'll do. Oh shit. So I just want to say it right off the bat. I did not see this tweet and intentionally

go after chipotle but then i came across a chipotle story and i was like oh that's funny oh sorry jessica gotta do it so here we go a story about chipotle um i want to thank pablo lopez from the fresno b for his excellent reporting jeanette ortiz was a great employee. By 2015, she'd been working at the Chipotle in Fresno, California for 14 years. Wow. Yeah. That's a long-ass time at Chipotle.

I know. That's like dog years, I feel. Yeah, I think that's been working here for 14 years, but in Chipotle, 8 years. That's 87. The toll that takes on your colon is just hard to believe. So she worked about 50 hours a week as the general manager. She always got great performance reviews. She earned about $72,000 a year.

Yeah, so she'd been there for a long time. And she was up for a promotion. If she got this promotion, she'd be making like $100,000 a year. But in the fall of 2014, things got weird. One day, the armored car that always came to swap out the big bills for the smaller ones didn't show up. So Chipotle had an extra $626 laying around. Some sources said $636. Others said $626. I say, who cares? $600. Okay. So Jeanette did what she thought was right. She took that money, put it in a manila envelope, sealed it, stapled it. She reached out to the

corporate office, let them know that they had this extra cash, let them know the amount. And then she put the money in the safe, which was right in front of a surveillance camera. Yeah. How do you feel about that? Good way to go? Yeah, it seems like proper procedure. Then in December, Jeanette filed a workers' comp claim. She was suffering from carpal tunnel syndrome, which was an on-the-job injury. I wasn't able to get a lot of info on that, but, you know. Well, they hand make all that guac, so. Well, and I think that's, like, it was just, like, legit.

Yeah. Repetitive motion. Yeah. Yeah. So she needed to take medical leave to recover. Jeanette's bosses weren't happy about her taking time off. In fact, she says that her immediate supervisor, Janelle Schrader, told her to go back to her doctor and downplay her injury so that she could come back to work.

What? That's what she says happened. That's not great. No. But Jeanette didn't want to do that she had carpal tunnel syndrome it was really bad and she needed to take time off to get better yeah which by the way I hate it when companies do that like yeah they know you're sick they know you're you're injured there's something wrong and they're like well but um what about what we need yeah right now yeah I left a

job because I was super sick that's right so when I was a district manager for a chain of salons like that's when I was diagnosed with Graves disease but there was a long period before I was diagnosed where they didn't really know what was wrong with me. And I was super, super sick. And I was going to the doctor constantly. And I had to get all of these tests done. And yeah, my boss was not super awesome about it. He didn't like me taking off time from work. He kept adding responsibility to me, even though I could barely handle like my own job responsibilities. He wanted me to watch other markets in addition to mine. And it ended up being way too much stress and I ended up quitting my job over it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have nothing that compares to that, but I will tell you one time, one time I remember, um, we were just working crazy hours and I got sick sick as as sometimes happen when you're working crazy

hours and not taking care of yourself so I took a sick day I'd never taken a sick day in that job before and you know I came in the next day and I wasn't feeling great but I was I was fine and my boss was like can you do this that the other thing And he tried to get me to make up those extra eight hours for the rest of the week. And it's like, no, dude, that's why I got sick. Like, leave me alone. Anyway, old wounds. Yeah. Whew.

Deep cuts, folks. Clearly, my story is a lot tougher than what you went through. You know, they have this kind of uncomfortable moment, but Jeanette was dedicated to her job. So she decided she was going to continue working through January 18th. And at that point, she'd go on medical leave. Then on January 3rd, 2015, Jeanette discovered that the 600 and something odd dollars that she'd put in the safe were missing. So she texted her boss along with two other people who were like higher up in the hierarchy. And she told them, hey, the money's missing from the safe.

She was like, last time I saw it in there was December 30th. Now it's gone. The higher-ups were very concerned. So they sent in another manager who went in and reviewed the footage from the surveillance camera. The manager looked over everything and afterward delivered some stunning news. delivered some stunning news. According to that manager, the footage showed that on December 29th,

Jeanette took the money out of the safe and put it in her backpack. What? Jeanette was a thief. No. Why no? Well, because she said she saw it on the 30th. And first of all, she wouldn't take it out of the safe and put it in her backpack. She knows there's a surveillance camera right there.

Uh-huh. It doesn't make any sense. Right. Show me the tape! Very good question. Where is that tape? I don't know. Where is it?

So Jeanette was just like floored by this accusation. She's like, no, no, no, no, no, no,

that's not true. I didn't steal any money. And please, if you're saying there's surveillance footage of me stealing, then show it to me. I want to see it. That's against company policy, ma'am,

where you can. Oh my God. You are so well-versed in corporate bullshit. Yes. That is exactly what they said. They were like, sorry, no. This is an ongoing investigation. We are not able to show you that surveillance footage.

Oh my God, you are so good at this. I spend a lot of time in the corporate world, Kristen. But I just, I'm floored by that. Like, why wouldn't you show the footage? If there's footage, then there's footage. Because there's not footage, Kristen. Okay, fair. So while Jeanette was out on medical leave, they fired her.

Was she on FMLA when they fired her? I believe so, yeah. Illegal. Is it? FMLA, that's Illegal. Is it? FMLA, that's family medical. Uh-huh. Okay. But what if it's when it's for your own personal?

Oh, that's, okay. Yes. Clearly I didn't spend much time in the corporate world. Jeanette was so upset. She'd been a loyal, dedicated employee for 14 years. 87 Chipotle years. She was up for a years. 87 Chipotle years. She was up for a promotion. And this thing about,

oh, we have the footage, but we can't show you the footage, just smelled like bullshit. So she said, you know what? Let's go to court. She sued Chipotle for wrongful termination

and emotional distress. And Chipotle was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Hey, hold on. Hold on. We don't need to go to trial here. Everybody just calm down. How about this? How about this?

We will settle with you for the grand total of $1,000. What? Can you imagine having that kind of amount of money? And that's life-changing, Brady. I mean, she'll never.

Yeah, life-changing that she's going to lose her house. Yeah, so they offer her. They're like, we see the situation. Let's make this fair. $1,000. What? That is ridiculous. She made $72,000 a year.

Okay, that's what cracks me up about this. $72,000 a year. By the way, she has nine children. Like, oh, shit. I know, I know. $1,000 isn't going to do shit for her. So Jeanette was like, uh, pass no it's a hard pass Chipotle and part of the reason was she was obviously having a hell of a time finding work because when she'd go and apply places she

had to say well yeah I was fired from my last job yeah and then what's the next logical question why were you fired uh yeah they say that i stole from him exactly well who's gonna hire someone like that she felt like her reputation was just awful now so she was like no thanks chipotle you can keep your one thousand dollars yeah i'll see you in court and that's exactly where she saw them. So right off the bat in this trial, there were a few things that both sides could agree on. Both sides said that Jeanette had been really good at her job.

She was a great general manager. She worked hard. She was loyal to the company. All of her performance reviews were just fantastic. But then came the disagreements. Chipotle's lawyer, Robert Hinckley, said, she was well-liked. She was a valued employee, but she violated that trust by taking the money. He talked about the video evidence. He said that five people in Chipotle's upper management had all watched the video and agreed that it clearly showed Jeanette stealing money from the safe. So I wasn't able to find as

many articles on this trial as I wanted to, but I believe these five people served as witnesses and told the jury about it. Yeah. So that, you know, they talk about what they saw in the footage and, you know, you'll just have to trust them, because after they watched it, the footage went bye-bye. That's ridiculous. They shouldn't even get to talk about it in court if they can't produce it. Well, it was an honest mistake that that footage went, Brandy, Brandy, hold on, hold on.

You're starting to sound like Jeanette's lawyer. No, Robert says that the video was lost due to a mistake. Hold on. Hold on. You're starting to sound like Jeanette's lawyer. No. Robert says that the video was lost due to a mistake. Jeanette's attorney was Warren Pabujan. Hang on. Let me try this again. Pabujan. Let me spell this.

P-A-B-O-O-J-I-A-N. I YouTubed like an ad for him. Pabujan. Pabujan. Pabujan, I think it is. Okay. Sorry, Warren. I think the world of you. Okay. So Jeanette's attorney was Warren Pabujan. And he was like, cute story, Chipotle. I don't't buy it he told the jury that chipotle destroyed the video evidence and those five witnesses who said they watched the tape full of shit so apparently this is so interesting to me when they testified they said that they'd seen jeanette like take the envelope out of the safe take the money out of the envelope, fan the bills, and show that there's exactly $636!

And then she, like, winked at the camera! So then they said that she looked over her shoulder to make sure no one was watching her. Oh my gosh! And Warren was like, that's dumb. Yes.

No. This is bullshit. He's like, if you know, as she knows, that there's a surveillance camera watching you, why do you look over your shoulder? Yeah. That doesn't make sense. It doesn't make any sense.

And to my knowledge, he didn't talk about fanning the money, but I think that's dumb too. If you're the one who put the money in the envelope, you don't waste time fanning it like you're Donald Duck. What are you, strip your clothes and roll in it? It's Scrooge McDuck. Oh, that's right. Donald Duck didn't have the arms.

I wondered why you looked at me like that. Do you remember that scene where he'd jump into the pool of coins? Yeah, into the swimming pool of coins. Yes. Which sounds painful, but I guess he was a part of it. It does sound great, but he loved it. So then Warren called former Chipotle assistant manager Mike Hunsick. Mike Hunt?

Then Warren called... manager Mike Hunsaker. Mike Hunt? Then Warren called... Please, no dirty jokes on the podcast. Warren called former Chipotle assistant manager Mike Hunsaker to the stand. That's the worst! That's his stand. That's the worst.

That's his name. That's the worst. Mike Hunsaker. Hey, there's a space there that you're losing. It's Mike, pause pause hunsaker very sorry mike so mike and jeanette worked together closely he helped count the receipts every day. And Mike said that he last saw that money on December 30th. And of course, Chipotle is claiming she took it on the 29th.

Someone was lying here. Yeah, it's Chipotle. According to Warren, yeah, it was the Chipotle workers. He was like, the only reason that the Chipotle witnesses testified the way they did was so that they could save their own jobs. Yeah. They're not telling the truth.

Warren told the jury that this wasn't about $626. Chipotle wanted to fire her because she'd filed that worker's comp claim for her job-related injury. They wanted to get rid of her. That's why they fired her.

It wasn't because she stole money. She didn't steal anything. Warren asked the jury to award Jeanette at least $10 million. He said that what they'd done to her was evil and un-American. But Chipotle's lawyer was like, whoa, hey, no, no, no. Don't get it twisted. Everyone at Chipotle loved Jeanette.

They supported her through four pregnancies and four workers' comp claims. She betrayed Chipotle by stealing from them. So I want to pause here because I don't like that he brought up four pregnancies and four workers' comp jobs. For many reasons. But, like, I've noticed sometimes when employers talk about how good they are, they're like, well, you know, she was out for these three pregnancies. That's the way biology works.

Women carry the babies. I wish we could switch it around. Exactly. It's not a choice we're making. I hate that maternity leave and paternity leave are seen as like

fancy boy perks. Oh yeah. That's bullshit. Yeah. It should be It's a necessity. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It should be. It's a necessity. Yes. Yeah.

Yes. Yeah. So, yeah, we're such a good company because we allowed her. We allowed her to take off time when she had four whole children. Yeah. We didn't have to do that. Yeah. Robert was like, look, I don't know why she stole from this beloved colon cleansing restaurant, but I can tell you that in 2014, when this all went down, she'd fallen on hard times.

So I mentioned before that she and her husband had nine children. And in the fall of 2014, apparently she asked a relative for a loan. She needed help paying her electric bill. And in the fall of 2014, apparently she asked a relative for a loan. She needed help paying her electric bill. And also, they had to move from their house to an apartment. And also, she told one of her coworkers that she had to get a second job because she needed money. But Warren was like, don't be ridiculous. Lots of people live paycheck to paycheck. Yeah, and $600 isn't

going to... No, it's not going to do anything. The risk does not outweigh the reward. Like, she would not sacrifice her job for $600, which would, what, pay her electric bill, probably, if she's got nine people living in a house? No, her electric bill, okay, I didn't write this down, but I want to say her electric bill was $1,700.

But! Yes. Oh, my God. My electric bill is like $170 in the winter, and I hate it. I know. It's like... She's living in California, though. Even electricity's more expensive.

So Warren's just like, look, lots of people are strapped for cash lots of people fall on hard times that doesn't make them a thief correct yeah can you imagine if everyone who was tied on money just stole from their jobs oh my gosh in his closing argument, Warren said that being called a thief made Jeanette feel worthless. She couldn't sleep. She was humiliated. The jury of four men and eight women deliberated for four hours. What do you think they found? I think they found in her favor and awarded her a small amount of money.

$800,000. Okay. They found in favor of jeanette she was not a thief she was a victim of chipotle's scheme to fire and defame her they awarded her one thousand dollars one thousand dollars you're fucking lying. Oh, my gosh. I couldn't help myself. No, they awarded her a little over $7.9 million. Good. Yes. So she got $6 million for emotional distress and $1.97 million for loss of past and future wages.

Good. A few days later, the jury came back to court to determine punitive damages. But before, and I mean, this could have been huge. Yeah. But before the jury could reach a decision,

Chipotle's lawyers went over to Jeanette's legal team and they were like, uh, you guys, um, you guys want to settle?

Because, uh, we will pay you more than $1,000 this time. Mm-hmm. This time, the settlement offer was actually tempting. They offered to pay Jeanette's court costs, her attorney's fees,

plus however much extra just for her. Yeah. And they said they wouldn't appeal. Jeanette took the offer and settled for an undisclosed amount, but I hope it was a ton. Me too. And I bet it was a ton. I bet it was too.

After it was all over, Warren said that the jury's verdict sends a message to corporate America that you need to treat your employees fairly and honestly. Amen. Yeah. I wish I could find more on her. She really

didn't speak to the media much. Her lawyer did pretty much all the talking from what I saw. But oh my God. Oh my gosh. I felt so bad for her. It just seemed like she was a very by-the-book person. Very much so. Yeah.

Do you think that's going to make people not want to eat Chipotle? No. I don't either. No, because to me, at least I'm hoping, it sounds more isolated. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds more shitty and isolated.

Whereas, like, the Sub the subway one that was a big national scandal yeah corporate offices knew about it according to the lawsuits um and then mcdonald's again yeah like mcdonald's corporate knew that those hoaxes were going yeah so i don't know jessica jessica let us know Did we ruin Chipotle for you? No. I think I'd still eat it. I'm not a huge Chipotle fan. I'm not either. And I'm sorry.

I was so excited when they came out with their like queso. Oh, I've not had it. Is it gross? I've heard it's disgusting. And I don't know how you mess up queso. No kidding. I've never had a bad queso. Here's my problem with Chipotle. Okay.

I'm one of those people you don't like cilantro cilantro tastes like soap to me oh well yeah then that pretty much ruins it yeah do they do a cilantro free rice i don't think so you'd think they would you would think they would because yeah like i can't remember what percentage of the population it's like either it tastes delicious yeah or it tastes like soap it tastes delicious yeah or it tastes like soap it tastes like soap to me it's a whole there's a whole science behind it yeah and it's like a something weird biological thing but yeah tastes like soap to me well you're a freak yeah i was expecting you to argue with me but no

would you like to talk about a horrible accident? You've been doing this to me a lot lately, where it's like, oh, it's this thing. But was it really? Was it really? Maybe it's this thing. I always feel so uncomfortable, so conflicted, but I enjoy it immensely. So go ahead. All right, let's go.

Clara Harris was fucking pissed. She couldn't find her husband, David. Clara had recently discovered that David was having an affair, but the two had decided to work it out. And on this particular night, July 24th, 2002, he was supposed to be meeting with his mistress to break things off oh boy only david wasn't at the restaurant he told clara he'd be at nor was he at any of the other places she knew him to frequent so now clara was driving around town furiously looking for david with his teenage daughter from a previous marriage in tow. Oh, no, that... you don't need to drag her along.

Yeah, probably not. No. This feeling of anger and betrayal was a new one for Clara, because up until just recently when David broke the news of the affair, she thought she'd had the perfect life. the news of the affair, she thought she'd had the perfect life. David and Clara met in 1991 and married on Valentine's Day, 1992. They were both in the dental field. Clara was a dentist and David an orthodontist, and they built a successful chain of practices in and around Houston, Texas. They owned a large, immaculate white brick home in the affluent suburb of friendswood

remember that's where andrea yates lived okay when they lived in houston yes wow okay um they had this great home there they were raising their twin sons. And then David's daughter, Lindsay, from a previous marriage, lived with them during the summers. It was nothing short of idyllic. Clara, who had come to the United States from Columbia years earlier in search of the American dream, believed she had really found it. And so did everyone else. Everyone who knew the Harris's thought they were the perfect couple and the perfect family. Clara decorated their home and dental offices with endless pictures of the family that she updated every few months. She constantly told her patients how happy she was in her life and her marriage.

I found the one God reserved for me, she was often quoted as saying. And the people in her life, whether it was friends, patients, co-workers, whatever, all felt the love she held for David. It was always David, David, David, one of her co-workers said. David. It was always David, David, David, one of her co-workers said. I used to tell people that I wished I could be able to love my husband in the same way that Clara loved David. Wow. But unbeknownst to Clara, David had started to feel like he was coming third in her life. First were the children, second were the businesses, and then was David in third. So he was like, let's get counseling. Let's work this out. Oh, yeah. No, no. Oh, weird. Okay. So this is in his mind. He's third. But even as demanding as Clara's work schedule was and, you know, doing stuff for the kids,

she made sure she was home by seven every night to make dinner and spend time with her family and then spend time with her husband. David was getting a little bit older, and according to to friends he was developing certain insecurities he'd started to wear a toupee a toupee to cover his thinning hair so that combined with his perceived lack of importance in his wife's life made for a recipe for disaster well the toupee is like red flag number one. David's office, Space Center Orthodontics, was just across the highway from the Johnson Space Center and saw up to 120 patients a day. It was, without a doubt, a booming business. And in August of 2001, a petite, pretty 39-year-old divorcee showed up at the Space Center Orthodontics looking for a job. Her name was Gail Bridges.

So a lot of this information, most of this information, comes from two articles written by our buddy Skip Hollinsworth for Texas Monthly. Yes, yes. This is how Skip described Gail. She had flawless alabaster skin, eyes as brown as almonds, and a pixie-ish Dorothy Hamill-like haircut. Compared with other neighborhood wives, her breast implants were not overly large.

Well, that's not where i thought that was going but yeah good on you skip you appreciate a realistic boob job gail had recently gone through a divorce and was trying to figure out what life looked like as a single mother living in a small home in a wait for it kristin oh no non-gated community oh the horror cannot imagine people could just come and go she landed the job at the orthodontics office. And though she was only making about $1,800 a month, a far cry from the luxury she was used to prior to her divorce, she liked the job. I am sure she was making plenty of child support and alimony. I was going to say, I mean, so she went from a gated community to a non-gated community, $1,800 a month.

That's a hard fall. It is a hard fall. Even if you've got those breast implants to bounce your baby. They weren't overly large, Kristen. I'm sorry. I missed that part. I will say, there's nothing worse when you see them and they look like hard and balloon-like. Yeah.

Pass. So she really, even though she wasn't making that much money, she really liked the job. Okay. Largely because she got along famously with the orthodontist, David Harris. Suddenly, David was lingering at the front desk between patients and the other staff members noticed. Yeah. One woman who worked in the office said that one time Gail dropped a file on the floor in front of Dr. Harris. And instead of like squatting down to pick it up like a normal person, she bit in half at the waist so that she'd stick her ass up in the air right in front of the doctor.

It's called the bend and snap. And the co-worker remembered thinking, uh-oh, I see what's going on here. Uh-huh. Uh-oh, I see what's going on here. Uh-huh. By February of 2002, David was asking Gail to accompany him to lunch, and they became intimate sometime in April or May. They were meeting at the Nassau Bay Hilton for sex.

David was paying cash for the room under a fake name. was the same venue where david and clara had held their wedding reception no yeah that is fucked up it is fucked up i mean on so many levels yes what you only know of one hotel right it's in houston yeah yeah give me a break. Yeah. Did he take the toupee off during sex? I don't know. I wish I did. Okay. Do you cut men's hair who wear toupees? No. No?

You think maybe there's a dude who like pops it off before he comes into the salon? It's possible. Yeah? Yeah. I don't know that I've ever cut anybody who wears it. But I knowingly. Mm-hmm. Like.

Yeah. I'm like cutting to make sure their hairpiece fits in. Right. Yeah. So by the summer of 2002, everyone at the office knew something was. Knew something. Peanut. Peanut.

Brandy, she's defending us from some terrible things we just have no idea what we don't know what they are neither does she because she's not even looking outside by the summer of 2002 everyone at the office knew something was going on between David and Gail. Let me tell you. Peanut. Come on. Peanut. Okay. Peanut. Peanut.

Stop it. Stop it. Okay. Let me tell you. Yeah. This is for our listeners if you are in a secret relationship at work yeah and you think people don't know you're wrong you are so wrong it's always so obvious totally wrong yes you're in this boring setting. Yeah. For minimum eight hours a day.

Yeah. Let me tell you. Oh, I shouldn't tell you. I shouldn't say. Let me just say, uh-huh. I always know. So everyone at the office knows there's something going on. But no one wanted to admit it. Yeah. And because everyone liked David and everyone loved Clara. Yeah. And they were sure she had no idea. Yeah. That sucks.

That really sucks. They also felt that Gail's intentions were clear. She saw David as her ticket back into the life that she had known with her husband. The life of a stay-at-home mom who lived in a big house in a gated community and had luncheons with the other stay-at-home moms. You think so? You don't think that it's possible that she just... I think it is possible that she liked the attention. This is not my opinion, Kristen. I'm just wondering if everyone's saying that David was a nice guy and everything. Although it is hard to imagine someone who's hot and has nice natural breast implants going for the toupee guy.

But hey, that's just me. Yeah. My husband's got a beautiful head of hair. He does. He has very nice hair. And it's cut so nicely. No, it is. By July of 2002, David's employees had had enough.

Yeah. They decided they were going to confront him after he returned from a jamaican vacation over the fourth of july holiday they sat him down and told him they knew all about the affair whoa yes and he was open with them he admitted what he had done but said he loved his wife and was determined to fix his marriage. But when someone suggested that he needed to fire Gail, David balked. He was like, I can't fire her.

I, I could never do that. He was too emotionally involved. Oh, so when he said, I want to work on my marriage yeah was this like i've my wife knows and we're working on it or oh okay okay so this is everyone please shut up shut up yes i will pretend that i'm hearing everything you're saying and really taking it to heart. But I'm going to continue doing what I want to do. You know what?

As hard as this conversation has been, I'm glad you came to me. I'm so glad you guys came to me before going to Claire. Now, I'd like to fire all of you. Yes! Days went by after that confrontation from the staff at Space Center Orthodontics and little changed.

Gail was still working there. Clara still knew nothing about the affair. They're all in the same workplace? Or I know you said they had different. Clara works at a different office. But Gail works at the office where David works. And it was the staff at that office that confronted David. Yeah. So after this confrontation, though, the guilt and the fear of someone spilling the beans started

weighing on David. And on July 17th, he sat Clara down and told her everything. She was devastated. And she was pissed. Yeah. She immediately went to the office and fired Gail on the spot and said she was never allowed to step foot back inside the building. Whoa. Yes.

Okay. But then, Clara did something that many women do after they find their husbands have been cheating on them. She blamed herself. She made a list of things she thought were wrong about her and she went to work fixing them. She stopped eating and dropped 15 pounds. She put a $5,000 down payment down on liposuction

and breast augmentation at a local plastic surgeon. She hired a personal trainer. She got a membership at a tanning salon. She got her hair done. She told her friends that she was determined to win David back. That's so sad. And so true. Yeah. It's exactly what women do. Yeah. Yeah. Well, in a way, it's so much scarier if it's something you can't control at all. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. But then again, it's like, God, what are you going to go your whole life?

Never eating cheesecake? Yeah, man. If that's not a world I want to live in. Take me out. Take me out. Take me out now. A few days after the news of the affair broke, Clara and David walked into the orthodontics office after having lunch, holding hands. They announced to the staff that they were going to make it. Everyone was thrilled.

Then, the following week, David and Clara sat down with his parents and his teenage daughter and told them all about the affair it was part of the healing process clara said i'm sorry if you guys can hear a ton of moving around peanut is walking everywhere she's doing her own thing she's getting her steps in she's getting she's got a Fitbit on her paw. No, she's mad because she was barking a lot. I don't know what I'm going to cut from this episode, but if I cut this last part,

she was barking a lot. Norman called her upstairs, and I'm guessing she waited for Norman to get really engrossed in a video game, and then she came back downstairs. So they sit down with David's parents and his daughter and Clara makes him come clean to them. She said it was an important part of her healing process. She needed everyone to know what had gone on. And it was difficult, but David did it.

He understood it was something that she needed. But then David had a request for Clara. He needed to meet with gail he needed to explain to her that it was over no he was sorry and that none of it was her fault no no why would you need it was an important part of his healing process kristin bullshit and she knows it's over yeah i think she got the picture and she knows why oh oh um i guess he was married the whole time yeah yeah and clara reluctantly agreed david set the meeting with gail for july 24th at perry's the same restaurant they'd had all of their clandestine lunches at but as the day grew near clara grew more and more uneasy about the idea of david

meeting with gail she began to worry so on the 23rd she called bobby baka b-a-C-H-A. Sure. Baca, Bacha. Owner of Blue Moon Investigations. Clara had picked the agent at random. She'd seen the agency at random. She'd seen an ad that said, need a clue? Call Blue. Okay. Sold. She said she needed someone to tailor her husband at dinner

the following night. She wanted them to get a table near him so they could overhear what david told wow oh i love clara yes blue moon agreed to take the job and assigned one of their young investigators to the case it would be an easy one just listen and report back clara filled out a form listed both david and gail's names paid a left. Bobby, the owner, glanced at the form quickly, thought she might have recognized Gail's name briefly, but then thought nothing of it. It turns out that Bobby did recognize the name. She had actually investigated Gail prior to her divorce.

What? Okay, so this is unrelated, but super interesting. Okay. So Gail had this best friend, Julie. And back when she was still married, Gail's husband and Julie's husband were also good friends. Okay. So like the couples were friends. The guys were friends. The girls were friends. Somehow, the two husbands got it in their heads that Gail and Julie were having some kind of lesbian relationship. So they hired Blue Moon to follow the women around and try and prove it.

Whoa. For the record, Bobby could never find any proof that there was anything going on other than a normal friendship. Huh. So at this same time, Gail and Julie start thinking both of their relationships are headed toward divorce. Things had gotten weird. Well, yeah, they were being tailed by someone. I'm sure things were weird. Things had gotten weird. They're like, I don't know. I think my marriage might be ending. Both of them are thinking this. And in Texas, assets are split 50-50 in a divorce unless you can prove adultery.

At which time you can petition for up to 90% of the assets. Ooh. Okay. So Julie was pretty sure her husband Chuck was cheating on her. So she and Gail went to Blue Moon and hired Bobby to investigate Chuck. Oh, my God. So this is actually the third case at Blue Moon that Gail had been somehow involved in. Don't you wonder how often stuff like this happens?

It's got to be fairly often because the type of people who need your services are probably kind of connected yes exactly that's weird yeah so i've not really related but i thought it was super interesting okay so now we're back up to the night of july 24th 2002 clara is fucking pissed remember she can't find david he's not at any of the restaurants they typically frequent so she called blue moon and asked if their investigator had been able to tail him. Yeah. Yes, they had. The investigator had tailed him all the way to the Nassau Bay Hilton. No.

Clara lost her fucking mind. Well, yeah, because she probably didn't know they'd been hooking up at their marriage venue for yeah yeah i guess they call that a wedding venue don't yeah so she hops in her silver s-class 430 mercedes sedan same yes david's daughter is in the passenger seat no why do you do that they book it over to the hilton right No. No. Why do you do that? And they book it over to the Hilton.

Right. She whips into the parking lot. Hold on. How old is the daughter? 16. No. Yeah. She whips into the parking lot and there is Gail's Lincoln Navigator.

Does she like plow into it? She loses her fucking mind and goes nuts on the car. She busts out the taillights. She keys it. Breaking dishes up in here. She rips the windshield wipers off and like bends them. Yes. It's like superhuman strength.

They said that they like they talk. So part of this also comes from an episode of Snapped. Well, sure it does. They talk about it on the Snapped episode about how people have tried to bend those. And it's impossible to do with your bare hands. And this little tiny dentist did it in a fit of rage. OK. I hate that the daughter was there to see it. Yes.

But other than that, I love it. The other day, Kyla sent me a meme that was Lucille know, Lucille Blues from Arrested Development watching Snapped. And she's holding a martini and she says, girl, I get it. I love it. Love it. Then she and Lindsay go into the hotel and they ask for David at the desk. But shocker, there's no one registered under the name David Harris. at the desk.

But shocker, there's no one registered under the name David Harris. So Clara and Lindsay come up with this idea that they will each call him from their personal cell phones and they'll say that there's something wrong with the twins and that he needs to come home. Oh, shit. So Lindsay calls. She tells him. Clara calls. She tells him.

He tells both of them that he is at Papa Doe. Oh, yes. Remember Papa Doe? I do. The seafood restaurant you had never heard of from that. Which episode is it? It's the one where the guy kills his family. Well, he hired his good buddies. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so he's like, hey, I'm at Papadeau. I'll leave now. I'll head home. See you in a few. Now I really want to go to Papadeau. Right? It's like where you go for all your criminal needs.

So they get off the phone with him. And a moment later, he comes running downstairs. The elevator opens. And out of it steps David and Gail, arm in arm. And all hell broke loose right there in the lobby of the Hilton. What witnesses remember is Clara lunging at Gail and screaming, you bitch, he's my husband. Oh my God.

Then she slapped at Gail, grabbed her shirt and tore it off. What? She slapped at Gail, grabbed her shirt and tore it off. What? What? She also shouted, this is Dr. David Harris and he is fucking this woman right here. No. Yes, in the middle of the lobby of the Hilton.

Oh my God. Can you imagine at the same time lindsey the 16 year old daughter runs over to her father and she starts hitting him with her purse and screaming i hate you i hate you i hate you oh my god yes oh my god yeah oh no one grabbed his toupee though i don't believe i feel like that missed opportunity missed opportunity okay amazing hotel employees tried to intervene better to step back clara her rage building kept grabbing at gail at one point she and gail were like pulling on opposite ends of gail's shirt like a game of tug of war okay if i were a hilton employee i might just take a step back there's not enough finally according to one witness who was there david like put his

hand on his wife's head and pushed her to the ground and then grabbed Gail and left. Oh. Went out to the car. The confrontation seemed to have ended. Hotel employees walked Clara and Lindsay back to the Mercedes, which was in a different parking lot, and asked them to leave. Yeah. Mercedes, which was in a different parking lot, and asked them to leave. Clara started the car.

And then she saw. Oh, no. The other parking lot. Oh, no. David and Gail. She gunned the engine and raced towards the parking lot where her husband was standing with Gail. The Mercedes glanced off of the Navigator, hit david before he could get out of the way propelling him 25 feet across the lot oh no witnesses said they heard lindsey screaming they saw her open the door and try and get out of the car but clara again aimed her car and pressed the accelerator and ran over David.

Oh, God. The Mercedes bounced twice as the front tires and then the back tires rolled over him. She whipped the car around, hit the accelerator again. She did it again? And drove over her husband a second time. Oh, no. And drove over her husband a second time. Oh, no.

Then she did another 180 and ran him over a third time before coming to a stop. According to witnesses, Lindsay then got out of the car, rushed around the driver's side, and punched Clara in the face. Wow. Then she collapsed on the ground and sobbed. When Clara got out of the car, she seemed disoriented. She didn't know what to do.

Yeah. She finally walked over to her husband. She stared at him and then she began to sob. Before the police arrived to arrest her,

she cradled him in her arms and begged him to breathe. I'm so sorry, she was heard saying over and over. David, I'm so sorry. I love you. Oh, my God.

Where was Gail in all this? She was still standing there. Yeah. Wow. Claire Harris was arrested and charged with murder. Oh. Claire Harris was arrested and charged with murder. Oh. So, did she intentionally kill her husband?

Or was it a horrible accident? How is that an accident? Or was it a fit of rage? Fit of rage, checked that box. And killed her husband. Not a horrible accident. How could that be an accident? Well, you see, Clara said she was simply trying to hit Gail's car and destroy it. And David just happened to be in the way. All three times?

She says she only ran him over once and that she didn't know that she had even done it. How do you not know that you've done it? Yeah. Yeah. Claire's trial began in February of the following year. Lindsay testified against her. Yeah.

Claiming that she told her to stop the vehicle. Yeah. The prosecution claimed Claire's actions were malicious and that she'd wanted to murder him. But the defense maintained that it was a crime of passion. Yeah, I agree with that. So immediately after she was arrested she gave a police interview where she said that she you know had intended to damage gail's car right and that deep down she did think that she wanted to hurt dav. Right. But that it had never crossed her mind to kill him.

Yeah. Yeah. And that was videotaped, obviously. Mm-hmm. But Clara's defense attorney, who was George Parnham. Do you remember that name? No. He's Andrea Gates' attorney.

Oh, my God. Okay. So he managed to keep that out of trial how that statement he got her whole police interview deemed inadmissible wow he's good he is good but what wasn't inadmissible was a little video that had been captured by the Hilton, the private investigator that was sitting in the parking lot tailing David. Oh, my. Yep. So it's just part of Blue Moon's policy that when you're tailing someone,

any time you can get them on videotape, you do it. And so the entire interaction in the parking lot was videotaped. Oh my gosh. And it was played in court for the jury. Yeah. Pretty damning. The video showed the Mercedes circling the parking lot three times but you can't see David on the video you can't see exactly where his body was okay which the defense wanted to use in their favor

they hired this consulting firm to put together a reenactment and prove that David could have been run over a single time and that it was completely by accident and that the other the two more times that she circled, she didn't hit him, couldn't have hit him. OK. OK. It was not allowed in court why not i don't know the reason but the judge did not allow the reenactment he could they could only explain what they had done and then have the consultant the expert say what they thought that that meant but they couldn't actually show the reenactment huh yeah the medical examiner testified that there was clear tire tracks running over david's chest right that his ribs had essentially been crushed

sure by it but again kind of working in the defense's favor there was only a single set of tire marks over him wow yes but the prosecution told the jury that that just meant that she simply drove over him in the exact same spot all three times no no no. That's dumb! Yeah. No. Yeah. The prosecution admitted that, you know, yes, they could only prove that there was one time, but she definitely ran him over three times, you can tell because she does the circling, and really, so a lot of that had to be left up to what the jury decided to believe, right?

Clara's attorney advised her not to take the stand. Oh, but she did it anyway. She watched several days of testimony and then she decided she had to speak. She couldn't sit there and not explain her point of view. However, by her taking the stand, that allowed her initial police interview to be played in court. Oh, shit. No. The stress of it caused her attorney to collapse in court. What?

They had to bring in a stretcher and wheel them out they had to call they had to go into recess for the day yeah because she was like no i'm testifying he's like please don't do it please do not do this i cannot defend you if you go up there Collapsed in court. Oh, the poor guy. The poor guy. Yeah. So she testifies and they play the part of her police interview where she said she wanted to hurt him. And they did not play the part where she said, but I never wanted to kill him. Yeah. Of course. And she explains her whole thing in court about how she was only trying to damage Gail's car.

She never had intended to hurt anyone. Oh, God. She had a slam dunk case. So. At the end of her trial the jury found her guilty they found her guilty

but they found her guilty of a crime of sudden passion rather than first or second degree murder okay

so she was sentenced to a maximum of 20 years in prison on February 14th, 2003. Their anniversary. Her wedding anniversary. Your face right now. That fits for me.

A crime of sudden passion. Yeah. I totally agree that it's a crime of sudden passion. Yeah. I don't think she went over there like, and now I'm going to run him over. Yeah.

Yeah. So this became huge news in Texas. It was like a really big deal. Like they were pulling a Claire Harris became like a thing that women said they were going to do. Like, yeah. Yeah. I'm going to pull a to do. Like, yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah, I'm going to pull a Claire Harris.

Like, yeah. There were lots of people who didn't believe that Claire had no idea that her husband was having an affair or that she was – there was no way she believed her life was as perfect as they made it seem. Why? Why did they feel that way? Because how could you not know?

How could you not know your husband was having an affair? How could you not know all of that stuff? And I would tell you that until a month ago, I would have been exactly with those people. How could you not know? How could you think your life was perfect? But I'm Clara Harris. I legitimately thought I had the perfect life. And then a month ago, I found out my husband was having an affair.

And it's been the craziest thing I've ever experienced yeah yeah um but unlike Clara I was gonna say you're not unlike Clara um I asked him to move out of my house and I filed for divorce you didn't run anybody over I did not run anybody over yeah so yeah so I think it's interesting that there were a lot of people in a lot in some of the articles that I read that were like, you could. How could you be that naive that you don't know that your husband's having an affair? Let me tell you, it can be done. I. Yeah.

When people say that kind of. Yeah. How could you not know? Yeah. No, I just feel like, man, you are jinxing yourself big time because in so many situations, the way you figure it out, the way you would have to have figured it out is to be looking through someone's phone constantly, follow them, be suspicious as hell all the time. And what kind of life is that? Yeah. It's no life. Yeah. It's no life yeah it's no life you

don't trust anything i i mean yeah i completely trusted my husband and i was wrong yeah yeah yeah i'm i'm glad you're talking about this yeah i i. So this case is super personal to me because it's so much like what I just went through. And I didn't know if I was going to say anything about it being so similar to like, were you listening to me? Like, obviously, you know, everything I've been going through. Can you imagine if I was finding out now? I would have pooped myself. No, but like when you came over today, you were like, I think I'm, I think I'm going to say it. Yeah. And I was like, okay. And I, I don't know. I thought it was coming earlier. So I was, I was totally off base, but, um, I just want to say that you're a rock star because you've dealt with this with so much more class and dignity than I think 90% of people would.

And like the week that, holy crap, I'm going to cry. Why am I going to cry? I just remember the week that it happened thinking, I am so proud to call you my friend. Thank you. Because you were going through absolute hell. And yet, you weren't saying, I want to run somebody over. You weren't. I mean, like, you know were you were dealing with it yeah

thank you it's been hard and it's been something I never expected to go through in my life yeah um but at the end of the day um I know I'm gonna be okay yeah because I'm I'm going to be okay. Yeah. Because I'm, I'm kind of fucking awesome. Like, and if someone didn't appreciate that about me, then that's on them. Yeah. Yeah. It fucking is. Yeah. Yeah. I'm holding back. What? You can say it. Say whatever you want. You're right. And we can cut whatever we want. Hmm.

What I want to say is... No. Okay. What do I want to say on the record? Wouldn't it be funny if we bleeped that thing I just said? No, I, I love you to death. I think you're a fantastic, wonderful person. I've thought that since elementary school. And so I hate that you've gone through this, but I'm so excited for what's ahead of you because whatever's ahead of you is going to be real. Yeah, you know, absolutely. And, um, thank you for, you've been such a support to me during all of this. And thank you. I love you.

What else would I be? What the hell else would I be? Sorry to get so serious on our comedy podcast. I really just wanted to let people in on a little bit of what's been happening in my life. Did you feel weird not talking? I did. It felt super weird, like just pretending it wasn't happening. Yeah.

Yeah. I know what you mean, because it's not like we get on here and we say everything about our lives. No, but we say a lot about our lives. Well, boy, we have had to cut the last section of the podcast up every week when it's like, what do you got going on? You know what I got going on. You know what I got going on. How dare you ask me that question. No, but I'm I'm glad it's out in the open and yeah you know

yeah me too feels good to have it just out there yeah yeah and now everyone knows why you changed your hair because that's right that's the law when a big life change happens what do you think of it i love it i love it it looks so good thanks I love it too. Should we describe it to people? Sure. You describe it. Sure. Okay. So it's a lob. It's like a long angled bob. And it is, I've got like a nice, a nice rich dark root down to some nice caramely balayaged

ends. It's very, very pretty. Thank you. Yes. I had had the blue for like four years, so it was definitely time for a change. Yeah. Yeah. I'm loving it.

If you're on trial for murder, you know, you're already. You're good. You're good to go. OK, let me finish a little bit about Clara. OK, so she was sentenced to 20 years in prison, which up to 20 years in prison, which is the maximum sentence for a crime of sudden passion. And she was fined $10,000. She was incarcerated in Gatesville, Texas. And she was a model prisoner while she was there.

I bet she was. She converted textbooks to Braille for blind students. Yeah. to braille for blind students. Yeah. She first became eligible for parole in 2012, but she was turned down. Over the next five years, she was turned down three more times.

Wow. Apparently some members of David's family had written letters to the parole board saying that Clara didn't deserve mercy and that she should serve her full 20-year sentence and be released in 2023. But then in 2016, 2017, somewhere in there, she got a new parole attorney, Kevin Stewie of San Antonio, and he came up with a new strategy at her parole hearing in October of 2017. He brought her two sons.

So she had those twin boys. They were at that time. They were 19 years old and they were in college in Texas. And they had been coming to the prison every month for the last 15 years. Wow. Without fail. Wow. To visit their mother. So the boys told the parole board that, yes, they had lost their father.

But at the same time, they had lost their mother, who they loved deeply, that made them victims twice. And they just wanted some time with their mother. And in November of 2017, she was granted parole. Wow. And she was released on May 11th, 2018. When she was released, she was inundated with requests for interviews, going on all these talk shows. Yeah, she turned all of them down. Yeah. She said all she wants to do is make up for lost time with her boys. Wow. Yeah. Because of her conviction she can no longer practice dentistry

so okay am i am i like a sick freak here because i kind of feel like i don't know i hear about a crime like this and i'm not afraid of that person maybe i should be no i i think because clearly it was a crime of passion and if she was in the correct state of mind, she never would have done that. And I think from the minute she did it, she expressed remorse. Yeah. She didn't deny that she had done it. Yeah. She did say it wasn't her intention, which I believe it probably wasn't her intention.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the story of Claire Harris. And I think it makes even more sense to me when you think about it from that perspective of, like your perspective of, I thought I had everything I wanted in life.

I thought things were perfect. Yeah. And all of a sudden, like that, it changed. Like that, it changes. It's all gone. It's too much for your head it was an illusion it was yeah yeah yeah how bad would i be at poker honest to god you have a terrible poker face, Kristen. You know what I keep thinking of?

What? So did you ever watch, oh shit, what was the name of that show? It was on Comedy Central. Key and Peele. I loved Key and Peele. Okay. Do you remember Obama's anger translator? Yes.

That's how I feel right now. Luther. Yes. I want to be a Luther right now. Luther. I want to be a Luther right now. The problem is you're too classy. Well, that was a good one. Yeah. I thought that case was, um, amazing. And I, I mean, I think that she definitely deserved to serve time. Oh, well, yeah, she did. But I'm glad that she, you know, gets to now spend some time with her children. And I think she's paid her debt.

And how long was she? 15 years. Yeah, that seems about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. As for show notes. What do you got? I must tell you. Well, you already know this. for show notes. What do you got? I must tell you. Well, you already know this and anyone who has liked our Facebook page knows this because my sister was just so thrilled. So I guess by the time this comes out, it will have been two weeks since the episode where you made fun of my cell phone. Yes. For being ancient. And I defended my cell cell phone i recall the morning that episode came out so my

sister always listens in the morning and my mom listens in the morning too usually the day the episode comes out well that day i was supposed to meet them for lunch and my trusty, beautiful, spanking new phone that day. The day when you had publicly made fun of my phone. It just stopped receiving text messages. Oh my gosh, do you think it heard me? It couldn't send them, couldn't receive them. It was a mess. And so I was like, Norman, something is wrong with my phone.

I need you to text my mom and Kyla and just let them know that if they need to contact me, they have to go through you. So he told them, and I thought maybe I'd get sympathy. Instead, they were like, ha, ha, ha, Brandi made fun of her today for that old phone. So in case anyone's concerned, Norman did a factory reset on my phone. And we've started a GoFundMe account to get Kristen a new phone. Since I still have not, like, bothered to sign in to, like, Facebook and all that stuff on my factory reset phone, I've been spending more time more wisely. Excellent. So jokes on everyone else.

Jokes on everyone else. So that's my news for the week. Excellent. I already just kind of spilled my news for the week. That's your news for the year. I hope that's my news for several years to come. No, you'll have good news. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely, I will. 100%. my news for several years to come no you'll have good news yeah absolutely yeah absolutely i will

100 percent um so i don't know if you saw this on our facebook page but your parents are spreading the word about us kristin okay my parents have told me a few times that when they go rving or they go out someplace they'll they'll talk they go out someplace, they'll talk about either Gaming Historian or they'll talk about Let's Go to Court. And I thought, well, that's going nowhere. No, turns out. Yes, they talked about us to some people that they met on one of their trips

and they've started listening to the podcast and are really enjoying it. And told us, told other people about us. You're so good with words, Brandi. So eloquent. So glad we're doing this. No, that's so exciting. Yeah, so basically what I'm saying to you guys, our listeners, is please tell other

people about us. We're begging you. We're almost to that 1,000 goal. I think we need to break that down a bit oh i'm afraid a thousand is like too big a leap how about we 200 200 yeah all right we'd love to get i guess if not 1 000 we'll we'll settle for 200 hey jeanette didn't settle for a thousand that's right you know what we would like 7.97 million. That's right.

That's exactly right. Plus an undisclosed number of ratings after that. That's exactly right. That's all we ask. You guys better get on it. We've been podcasting for 14 years now. That's right. 87 Chipotle years.

Yeah, so please head on over to iTunes. Leave us a rating. Leave us a review. And then find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Instagram. We're on Twitter. we're on YouTube, we're on Reddit. And then if you've done all that, don't forget to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate

it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from an article in the Washington Post and two articles by Pablo Lopez for the Fresno Bee. And I got my info from Texas Monthly, an episode of Snapped, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours,

but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.