Let's Go To Court! - 66: The Man in the Attic & an Unsolved Mystery

Episode Date: April 24, 2019

Walburga “Dolly” Oesterreich was unhappy in her marriage. She and her husband, Fred, were financially successful, but Dolly was bored. One day, Dolly told Fred that her sewing machine was broken. She asked him to send one of his repairmen to fix it. Fred sent 17-year-old Otto Sanhuber. When Dolly answered the door, she was wearing stockings, a silk robe, and not much else. It was the start of a lengthy affair. But when her neighbors asked questions, Dolly was in a pickle. How could she keep cheating on her husband without anyone finding out? Then Brandi tells us about Sharon Kinne, whose life is shrouded in suspicion and mystery. Sharon was just 16 when she met 22-year-old James Kinne. The couple got married quickly, but their happiness didn’t last. On March 19, 1960, James was shot dead in their Independence, Missouri, home. Who could have done it? Sharon had the answer. It was the couple’s toddler. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “Sanhuber says he confessed to save widow,” Associated Press “Attic batman and jury visit murder scene,” Universal Services “Mystery of the man in the closet,” by Ruth Reynolds, the Honolulu Advertiser “Lived like a bat in an attic,” by A.L. Wooldridge, the Post-Dispatch Sunday Magazine “Bedroom in the attic,” by Spencer Hardy, King Features Syndicate “‘Bat Man’ case: a lurid tale of love and death,” by Cecilia Rasmussen, Los Angeles Times “The married woman who kept her lover in the attic,” By Addison Nugent, Atlas Obscura “Lover in  the attic,” by Joseph McNamara, Daily News In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Maybe I’ll Meet You on The Run” by Mark Gribben, The Malefactor’s Register “Sharon Kinne” by J.J. Maloney, crimemagazine.com “Sharon Kinne” wikipedia.org  

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about a man in an attic. And I'll be talking about an unsolved mystery. Should we start by addressing your voice?

Do you think the listeners will notice? So, we've had to record the intro twice because I laughed so hard. Your voice. I am a tad bit under the weather. We are even recording much later than our regular recording time because I was so sick.

Yeah, as in days later and in the evening. It's another LGTC After after dark so get ready and then yes we're way later in the week than we usually record because i have been on my deathbed for days i was secretly wondering because last week we were like we always release new episodes on wednesdays we never and you said watch this will be the week that we don't. And then you got super sick. And you just were not recovering. And I was like, oh boy.

Guys, let me tell you, at this very minute, there are fucking blisters on my tonsils. I have seen them. They are crazy. It is disgusting. They scared the nurse. crazy it is disgusting they scared the nurse that's how much i love this podcast and our listeners as i am recording this with fucking tonsil blisters i'm also mildly uncomfortable should we get into it yeah um oh they really did scare the nurse when she went to swab me for strep throat which turns out was negative. Excellent. Yeah.

Uh-huh. Party. Like, I opened my mouth for her to stick her cotton swab in, and she goes, oh, my. Do you mean tongue depressor? No. Cotton swab. They don't just stick a cotton swab in. When they test for strep, they do. It's just a cotton swab?

It's just a cotton swab. Man, so she gets her whole. I mean, it's not a longer stick than like a Q-tip. Okay, okay. But yeah, and they just like... Really scrape it in there. Pop the blister. Okay, let's move on.

Gross. Do you know this story? I mean, not off of that. I've heard about some men and some addicts. I don't know if it's this one. Okay. So, first off, this story comes from Mark.

The subject of his email was the craziest case I've ever heard. And I was like, alright. I'll be the judge of that! He was right. This is nuts. I'm not going to tell you anymore about his email, except for he ended his email by saying,

also, I've been a little offended about your statements about all marks are canadian i am not canadian i'm 100 percent american from boston the birthplace of america anyway keep up the wonderful job you two always do your fan mark so it's just been sad for mark to find out through this podcast that he's secretly Canadian. I mean, if we trace it back, Mark, I guarantee you're Canadian. These are the facts. That's right. Marks are Canadian.

Brad's are blonde. Dee Dee's are terrible. We don't make up these rules. That's right. Great. I'm sure that sounded awesome. I was going to cut that sound. Okay. My preface that I always do for crazy old cases.

I read a bunch of stuff. Some of it is conflicting. You're giving me the I'm bored face already. Okay, okay. Do we get it? We get it. It's hard to find stuff. Some of it will be conflicting.

If you look it up yourself, you might find some different information. Yes. We're information. Yes. We're ready. Okay. Here we go. Take us to the attic. In the early 1900s, Walburga Dolly Corshall had a pretty shitty life. Is that one person?

Walburga. If you can believe it, Walburga went by Dolly instead of Walburga. I don't know why. Imagine that. And I don't know why we don't still use that name. The name Wellberga is so beautiful. So she was a German immigrant, and she grew up on a farm in the Midwest. She didn't have much money, and what little she did have came from really hard work.

When she was 14, she worked in a factory. And it was around that time that she met a 17-year-old named Fred Ostrich. It looks kind of like ostrich, but it can't be. Why not? Because that would be too hilarious. So his father owned a shoe store. And when Dolly was 17 and Fred was 20, they got married and moved to Milwaukee. They opened a shoe store, and then they opened a bunch of other stores. They were doing really, really well.

But they really hit it big when they opened an apron factory. Once that apron factory opened, they were rich. Except life wasn't perfect. They had money, but Fred drank way too much. And he wasn't very good in bed. But then, on a hot, steamy day in 1913, Dolly told Fred that her sewing machine was broken. She wanted to know if he could send one of his repairmen to come fix it.

Did she bang the repairman? Don't jump ahead. Fred said sure. He sent a 17-year-old. What? She banged the 17-year-old... What? She banged the 17-year-old repairman? You know, I don't know why you're jumping to such wild conclusions. The 17-year-old was named Otto Sandhuber.

Sand... whatever. To fix the machine. Dolly had seen Otto before. And when he arrived at her home dolly answered the door wearing perfume stockings a silk robe and nothing else it's getting hot in here and that song was playing on the old timey radio. She was 26? Oh, she's not as old as I thought she was.

33? No one really knows. 20? These were the three different ages that I read in all these newspaper articles, which it drives me crazy. 20 isn't that bad. 36? Yeah. 36 is like, well, 33 was the only one. Okay, I'm sorry.

33. But like 20, I'm kind of like, it's 1913. Yeah. But at any rate, Dolly and Otto, I don't know how you guessed it. They banged it out. They banged. And they banged and they banged and they banged. Boy, did these two bang.

If you're thinking this was a one-time thing, Brandy, you are wrong. Yeah. Her sewing machine was broken every day. They met up in hotels around Milwaukee. But, you know, that starts to add up. Gets pricey. So pretty soon, Otto started coming over when Fred wasn't around. Dolly and Otto were having a grand old time.

But there was one problem. The neighbors were nosy. They saw that Dolly was entertaining this young dude, and they started asking questions. But Dolly was like, hey, everyone, he's just my vagabond half-brother. Now, shut up. I'm banging.

Yeah, nothing to see here, folks. Just a little incest. Gross! Now, shut up and don't mention this to my husband. Yeah. But people didn't shut up. So what could Dolly do? She wanted to continue her affair with this 17-year-old,

but she didn't want anyone to know about it. What do you do? Do you move them into your attic? I don't know. What a logical thing to do. What an excellent idea dolly did what any reasonable person would do she told otto to quit his job at the apron factory and come live in secret in her attic okay and he was like, I'll move in tomorrow?

Yeah. Okay. Here was their arrangement. Otto would live in the house with Fred and Dolly, but Fred could never know he was there. The only human interaction that Otto could have would be with Dolly. Hmm. This is like some flowers in the attic bullshit. Yeah, this is not good.

Otto didn't have a family, and he was just a teenager in love. You know, he thought it was love. So he said yes. He moved into the attic. Dolly put a cot and a desk up there, and she brought him books from the library. They had sex whenever they got the chance and to pass the time Otto pursued his passion he wanted to become a writer and all of a sudden he had all this spare time to sit around and write so he did he had this dream of writing for pulp fiction

magazines and those were magazines that were like kind of sexy, edgy, sometimes violent. And so he started writing stories and eventually he had some success. He started publishing stories under a pen name from this attic. Wow. Years passed. Years? Yes. years yes otto was still in the attic writing he and dolly were still banging and fred was like i think i'm losing my mind his cigars kept going missing and they were always running low on food why why were they consuming so much food all of a sudden? There's a whole other person living here. And plus, he could always swear that he heard these noises in the house.

But then he'd ask Dolly and she'd be like, I don't know what you're talking about. So, like, clearly he was crazy. He was losing his mind. Oh, my gosh. Dolly was concerned about him. So she said he should go see a doctor. Of course she did. Uh-huh. So Fred did go see a doctor, but the doctor was like,

I have no idea what's wrong with you. Still, something didn't seem right. Fred needed to get out of Milwaukee. He wanted to move somewhere totally different, like L.A. By this point, Otto had been secretly living in Fred's attic for five years. Shut the fuck up! True story. Holy shit.

So Fred tells Dolly, I want to move to L.A. She wasn't thrilled, but she eventually said, fine. I'll move to L.A. on one condition. What do you think the condition was? I don't know. We have to find a house with an attic. She's going to move her, how's she going to secretly move her lover into the attic? Excellent question.

Glad you asked it. So apparently, attics aren't super common in L.A., but Fred agreed, and they found one. They got a house with an attic in L.A. Okay, I have addresses. But I've looked up some of these.

I had trouble figuring out if they were the real ones. I mean, in newspapers back in the day, they would print the address. Why are you looking at me like that? Give me the address, Kristen. 858 North St. Andrews Boulevard. Is that LA.A.? Yeah. I mean, I assume.

That's what... God, I'm getting a server error on Google Maps. Nope, so am I. Hmm. One of the newspaper articles I saw had pictures of their houses. They were in gorgeous, gorgeous homes. Because they were super rich. Okay.

At some point before Fred and Dolly made their official move, Dolly let Otto out of the attic and sent him to L.A. So by the time she and her husband moved into their new house, Otto was already living in the attic. The fuck? Yeah. Oh my gosh. But living in L.A. didn't magically make Fred's life any better. He still heard strange noises.

His cigars were still going missing. His drinking got worse. and he and Dolly fought like never before. They'd had a lot of bad fights before, but the night of August 22, 1922, was especially bad. In fact,, was especially bad.

In fact, it was so bad that Otto, who obviously was listening to the whole thing, couldn't take it anymore. Oh my gosh. He was sitting up in the attic listening to the whole thing. And he was like, that's it. I have to save Dolly. He crawled out of his hiding spot. He grabbed two of Fred's guns. And the second Fred saw Otto, he flipped out. He recognized him immediately.

The two struggled. They knocked down furniture. One of the guns went off and fired into the ceiling. But eventually, Otto overpowered Fred. He shot Fred three times in the chest. Oh my gosh. Fred died immediately.

So, Otto and Dolly stood over Fred's dead body, and they were like, oh shit. What do we do now? That's when they hatched a plan. What fucking plan? Okay.

Put yourself in their shoes. What plan do you come up with? Why is Fred dead in the house? Because he attacked Dolly. Right? Don't you do like a self-defense situation? So Dolly takes the fall? Can't.

I don't know. I mean, you can't explain Otto, right? No, you can't explain Otto. So here's what you do. They decided to make it look like a robbery gone wrong. So they took Fred's diamond watch, hid it away, and Otto locked Dolly in a closet and threw the keys on the floor. Then he hid himself back in the attic. And as soon as Otto was hidden, Dolly screamed her head off. She screamed and screamed and screamed until eventually

one of her neighbors called the cops and said, hey, we heard gunshots and screaming. We think something's going on next door. Police arrived on the scene. They found Fred dead on the floor and poor, traumatized Dolly. When they asked Dolly what happened, she said that they'd walked in on people robbing the place. She said she'd been upstairs when Fred must have confronted the burglars, and suddenly she found herself locked in the closet, and it was all so startling that she fainted. But then she came back too, and started screaming for her husband, but he didn't come.

It was all so traumatizing that she fainted again. Again? A second time? I feel like people fainted all the time back in the day. Yeah. Next thing she knows, she's being rescued. Hmm. The whole thing struck police as a little weird.

It was a robbery, but the robbers only took one watch. Fred and Dolly were super rich. The house was filled with nice things. Why not take more? Plus, Fred died with a fat wad of cash in his pocket. Oh, great. Why not take more? Plus, Fred died with a fat wad of cash in his pocket.

Oh, great. Why not take that? Equally strange was the fact that none of the neighbors saw anyone coming and going from the house. Uh-huh. And frankly... Ninja robber. Frankly, Dolly seemed a little off. Mm-hmm.

So police asked her, did you and your husband ever fight? And she said, no, never. Okay. Not once in our entire marriage. That's unbelievable at all. They just had the perfect marriage, so there you go. Nope. That's what the police said.

Yeah. Fred's death meant that Dolly would get all the money to herself. That could be a motive for murder. But police didn't see how she could have done it. I mean, she couldn't have shot him and then locked herself in the closet. Right. Police did interrogate a few people but no one seemed right for this crime like no one seemed to be their guy or gal they were still suspicious of dolly but they had like nothing on her so they had to move on

Dolly, but they had like nothing on her. So they had to move on. Meanwhile, I bet you're wondering how Dolly was doing. Yeah. Don't worry. Doing great. Living it up. Her husband, her husband were out of the picture.

Great. Her husband was out of the picture and she had a ton of money all to herself. So she bought a new house not too far from the old one. It also had an attic and it was located at 101 North Beachwood Drive. No fucking server error this time.

So you can actually go on Zillow and see pictures of this place. I don't know. Again, I don't know for sure that this was her old house because sometimes so you can actually go on Zillow and see pictures of this place. I don't know. Again, I don't know for sure that this was her old house, because sometimes, like, street names change and all that stuff. $3 million? Okay, are you ready for another crazy story about this place? Yeah.

So, you know, I was Googling it, obviously, and I saw somewhere, like, oh, it's the scene of an unsolved murder, and I was like wait no what okay this woman was murdered in like 2014 in this house what yes still unsolved i want to say they're trying to get three million dollars for a murder house it's la this ain't kansas city that might be a discounted rate so anyway for anyone keeping score that's one dead husband one wealthy widow and one still secret lover her husband is dead but she's still a secret. She still wants Otto in the attic. How's Otto feeling about this?

Okay, so I, when I first read the overview of this case, I was kind of like, whoa, zany. But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, okay, if it were a man doing this to a 17-year-old girl, I would be freaked out. So once I thought of it in that lens, it's like, okay, so this was horribly abusive. Yeah. This kid had no family to speak of. Yes. He thought he was in love. And so he agreed to this crazy arrangement and obviously when her husband was dead she still wanted so she was a freak and she was like terrible yes yes it's a horribly abusive

why are you looking at me like that you're right though this house is 3 500 square feet and three million dollars in la so that probably is a discounted price it has to be otto moved into the new attic and thanks to some money he made off of selling his stories he bought himself a typewriter i don't know why i included that i'm happy for him i well i guess, take your joy where you can get it. Around this time, Dolly got an estate attorney named Herman Shapiro. And she thought Herman was pretty smoking hot, so those two started hooking up. And at one point, Dolly was so taken by Herman that she gave him a gift.

It was a diamond watch. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Oh, shit. Dolly done fucked up. Why? What? Because that was the only thing stolen from the murder scene, Kristen.

Well, now, hold on, Brandy. There's a perfectly logical explanation. Oh, is it? Yes. He's there. Who is it? What? Huh? Huh?

Oh, no. The tonsil blisters. The tonsils can't handle the laughing. So Herman was no dummy. He immediately recognized the diamond watch as the one that the robbers stole from her now deceased husband. So he confronted her. And she was like, what? Oh, oh, right, that thing?

Well, yeah, okay, okay, that was Fred's watch. I found it after poor Fred was murdered. It was under a window seat cushion. I didn't think anything of it. I was just so happy to find it. So, enjoy it. Okay. But Brandy, I ask you, were those two men enough for Dolly?

No. Dolly is insatiable. She's got that perfume, that silk robe, those stockings. And nothing else at the same time she had otto in the attic and herman on the side although is it really on the side i mean who's to say who's on the side who's on first what's on second who's in the attic who's got the dead guy's watch. She started hooking up with a businessman slash aspiring actor named Roy Klum.

I think he's going to have to change that name if he wants to be anything more than an aspiring actor. Later, Clark Gable. And that's the story of Clark Gable. Can you believe it? Crazy. The two of them got pretty close. So close, in fact, that Dolly confided in Roy about a problem she had.

See, she knew that police suspected her and her husband's murder, which was just awful because she was 100% innocent, as we all know. But due to very bad luck, she happened to own a gun that was very similar to the one that was used on her husband. She was afraid that the police would find it and jumped to the crazy conclusion that it was the murder weapon. Wow, imagine that. So could he dispose of the gun, pretty please? Roy said sure. Of course he did. He took the gun

and threw it into the I don't know how to say this, La Brea Tar Pits? Yeah, La Brea Tar Pits. Very good. Thank you. You killed it. you dolly was like sweet but remember otto came down the stairs that night with two guns so then dolly took the other gun to her neighbor and she told him basically the same story oh my gosh i have this gun the police are gonna find it and draw the wrong conclusion.

Could you please get rid of it? And the neighbor said, sure. He buried it in his backyard. Months went by. It had been almost a year since the robbery. And Dolly dumped Roy, the guy who threw the gun into the tar pit. Yeah, you can't piss off the guy who knows where the evidence is.

Nope, no, you sure can't. So Roy was super mad, so pissed that he went to the police and he told them exactly what he'd done. Yeah. The police rushed to the tar pits and they found it. Shut the fuck up.

They found the gun. How is that possible? Okay. Let me just say, I don't believe it is possible. That's what all the stories say. Some of them don't include that detail and I think they don't include it because that's impossible. It's impossible. How bad can you be at throwing a gun into a tar pit?

Right. And it's been out there for like months and months and months no no i'm not buying it at any rate with this new information from roy they arrested dolly for her husband's murder the newspapers were all over it this was big news and of course that neighbor who she'd asked to get rid of the other gun, read those stories and was like, oh, shit. Maybe it was a bad idea to bury the gun in my backyard. Yeah. So he goes into his backyard.

He digs it back up and brings it to the police. Uh-huh. Dolly freaked out. Police now had both murder weapons or just one, whatever. They had the story. They were building their case against her. And her secret lover was still hiding in the attic at home. One day, her lawyer slash lover, Herman Shapiro, visited her in jail.

And she told him, I need you to help me out. I need you to buy a bunch of groceries, go to my house, and when you get there, go into the bedroom closet and tap on the wall. That's the signal

for the man who is hiding in my attic to come out. And oh, oh, hey, I see the face you're making. Don't worry. Nothing weird going on here. He's just my vagabond half-brother. Okay. Herman did what he was told.

Of course he did. He was pretty freaked out, though. He bought the groceries. How hot is fucking Dolly? I mean, and not that great. Go ahead and look her up. What's her last name? Oster.

Okay, O-E-S-T. Yeah, I get it. Okay. Oster Reich is my name. Oh, that's much better. But you see that, like, the main picture. It's not. That's much better. But you see that, like, the main picture. It's not.

It looks like she's spent too many years without a bra. Am I right? Are those her boobs? Well, what else are they? I don't know. What else would they be? Uh-huh. Yes, it seems like she spent too much time with the stockings and the silk robe and nothing else those things aren't pointing north anymore that's for sure you know that happens

now i'm getting defensive so okay so herman gets there with the groceries goes into the house he went into the bedroom closet and he saw so okay here we have attics and they're like up a you know like they're a hole in yeah like a yeah like a yeah i'm using way too many hand gestures here so you just have like a ceiling access to your um attic in most places right but in this particular one my understanding is so they've got their bedroom they've got the closet and then up kind of high in the closet is like this cubby cutout thing that you know i suppose a human man could fit through yeah and like when you would go through i think this is the way they had it set up

like you could access the attic in a normal way and it looked like okay i'm looking at the attic yeah but secretly around that portion was this was where otto lived so you thought you could see the attic but you really couldn't you couldn't see the full attic got it herman was too freaked out to just go tap on the wall so he just stood back at a distance and whistled and sure enough this pale sweaty stinky man crawled out from that cubbyhole because remember this is la he's living in an attic. There's no AC. By this point, Otto had been living in Dolly's attic for ten years. Oh my

gosh! Otto, to my knowledge, hadn't had a real conversation with anyone besides Dolly in a very long time. So he talked to Herman. And remember, in Herman's mind,

Otto is just Dolly's weird half-brother. Yeah. But Otto, right off the bat, starts bragging about all the sex he's been having with Dolly over the years. Oh, no! Herman was furious. He was in love with Dolly,

and here's this guy bragging about having sex with his girlfriend. So Herman was like, get out. You're not allowed to live in this attic anymore. And if you know what's good for you, you'll get the hell out of California. The threat worked. Otto fled all the way to Canada. Where Mark is from. Yes.

Stop denying your roots, Mark. Meanwhile, police were building their case. They had the two murder weapons, maybe. And at one point, when Herman Shapiro came in to represent Dolly, one of the detectives noticed that Herman was wearing the freaking watch. Uh-huh. Of course, Dolly and Herman had a perfectly reasonable explanation. Oopsies, it was under a cushion the whole time.

Yeah, oopsie. What more do you guys want? Oops-a-daisy. But detectives were suspicious. They turned their attention to the two guns, but it turns out they were so rusted that they couldn't say for certain that they'd fired the bullets that killed Fred. In other words. Yeah, and one should have been fucking covered in tar, right? I mean, I really think surely they only had the one.

Right? I mean, how do you? How? I don't how do you, how? I don't know. If only there was a disclaimer at the beginning of this episode. That's enough, madam. So everyone was certain

Dolly was involved in this murder. But there wasn't enough evidence to bring her to trial. They didn't really have anything on her. They didn't have enough pieces of this story because nobody except Herman knew about Otto. Dolly got out on bail and Herman moved in with her. They were in love. Eventually the state gave up. They dropped charges against Dolly. Dolly and Herman lived together for seven years. But in 1930, they had a nasty breakup.

You're not going to believe this, but Dolly was hooking up with another dude. Wow, shocking. A married dude named Bert Hendrick. A married dude named Bert Hendrick. At one point, Bert's wife Geneva sued Dolly for $300,000. She sued her for alienation of Bert's affections. Which I didn't know you could sue somebody for that. Interesting. Tucking that away.

Just saving it. Geneva claimed that Dolly was interfering with their marriage by giving Bert tons of gifts and gin. Dolly was pissed about this lawsuit. In fact, according to Geneva's mom, Dolly told Geneva that if she didn't drop the lawsuit, she'd kill her. Okay. Yeah. Good stuff, right? But don't worry. Dolly didn't kill Geneva. Instead, she countersued her for $500,000 for slander.

Oh. Obviously, both of these cases were dismissed. Oh, damn. And really, the only thing you need to know here is that Herman was really pissed about Dolly hooking up with Bert. And he had this sinking suspicion that if he didn't leave voluntarily, Dolly and Bert were going to murder him. Uh-huh. So he moved all the way to St. Louis, Missouri. Which, although a lovely place, is no L.A. Yeah.

He was so angry over how Dolly had treated him that he said to himself, you know what? She shouldn't have done that. I know exactly how Fred died. I know how Dolly was involved. I know about Otto. I know that shelly was involved. I know about Otto. I know that she has continued to send him money over the years, and I'm gonna

tell the police. That's exactly what he did. He wrote a 15 page affidavit. Affidavit? Affid... Affidavit. Thank you. You didn't sound confident. Not at all. And mailed it to the la district attorney

it was all police needed by that point otto was back he was 40 years old living in los angeles he had a new name walter klein and he was married police arrested him and they also arrested Dolly. Otto was very forthcoming. Did you just cough? What? You know what? I feel a blister. I feel so many blisters coming on.

You shouldn't have stuck your hand in my mouth. Thanks a lot, Brandy. Does it hurt to talk? No, it really only hurts to swallow. How's that going to affect your weekend? That's a disgusting joke. Sorry. So when police arrested Otto, he was very forthcoming.

He told the police everything. In the initial confession, he seemed to view their attic arrangement somewhat favorably. Like they were just so in love. But really, I mean, the dude had been brainwashed. Yeah. In his version, he heard Dolly and Fred fighting, came downstairs with the two guns, shot Fred, and locked Dolly in the closet. came downstairs with the two guns, shot Fred, and locked Dolly in the closet.

He didn't seem to understand. This is where I feel really, well, I feel awful for him through this whole thing, but he did not understand how the outside world was going to view this story. So once word got out, it was everywhere. People lost their minds. A dude lived in an attic for 10 years so that he could secretly bang a married woman. It was everywhere. People lost their minds. A dude lived in an attic for 10 years so that he could secretly bang a married woman.

The press called him Batman. And, I don't like this one, Bat Lover. Because he lived in the attic? Yeah, sounds like you have sex with bats, right? Also, they called him Attic Lover, which sounds like love houses so otto was humiliated by the news coverage otto went to trial in june of 1930 he pled not guilty by reason of insanity the prosecutor pushed for the death penalty wow Wow. Yeah. It's amazing to me the difference in times. Like 1930,

I mean, yeah, it's a long time ago, but it's not like crazy a long time ago, but I mean, it was like no one thought of him as a victim at all.

Oh my gosh. People did not have sympathy. Wow. I do. I know. I know. He's totally a victim. But it's funny because a lot of the more modern stories about him, like none are super recent.

But like, you know, within the last 10 years, some of them are still written in this kind of like zany, whoa, you'll never believe what happened to this guy. It's like, um, I mean, it's kind of like what R. Kelly is doing. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And we're not like, huh-huh. Yeah.

Well, I guess some people are still going to his concerts, which that's, I don't get that at all. Nor do I. Anyway. Hmm. But Otto's defense attorney, Earl Wakeman, argued that Otto had been a love slave and that he'd been under Dolly's hypnosis. He said that Otto had the mind of an eight-year-old boy.

He tried to get Otto's grand jury confession thrown out, but the judge sided with the prosecutor. The prosecution had a pretty strong case. They had a confession, and they had Herman Shapiro as their star witness. He knew the inside scoop. He'd written the 15-page affidavit. But before Herman could say much of anything, the defense attorney objected. He said, Herman Shapiro can't testify

because that would be a violation of attorney-client privilege. Turns out Herman had once been Otto's attorney for this case. Otto had given Herman two $5 bills as a retaining fee. So I just found like an article saying this and it was like, the judge will rule tomorrow. Could I find the next day's article no but i assume that the judge ruled in favor of the defense because there were no articles about herman testifying and yeah i mean if it would be if that's breaking attorney client privilege you can't do that yeah the defense did their best to chip away at the prosecution's case otto took the stand to say that a lot of his grand jury confession was false.

He told the jury that, yes, he'd loved Dolly, and yes, he'd lived in her attic, but he never shot Fred. The whole story he told about shooting Fred because he was getting violent with Dolly, that story was made up. Dolly made him say it. It was made up by Herman Shapiro to take the heat violent with Dolly. That story was made up. Dolly made him say it. It was made up by Herman Shapiro to take the heat off of Dolly.

Oh, that's clever. Are you ready to hear the real story? Uh-huh. As told by Otto? Uh-huh. Otto had been up in the attic the whole time. Yes, he'd heard gunshots. And he'd heard a lot of running around.

And he'd heard Dolly whimpering in her closet. He heard someone coming up the stairs. Not Fred. That wasn't the sound of his footsteps. Otto went and scratched on the wall. He said, Dolly, say something. And she whispered back, do you want me to be killed a few days later dolly told him that fred had been shot

otto was as surprised as you and i are what what how does she get locked in the closet obviously by the guy who really did it no brandy no brandy no he was in the attic the whole time no come on otto so who really killed fred otto the defense said it was anyone's guess but here's a suggestion how about roy clum the man who threw the gun in the tar pit otto said that roy was always over at the house he heard his voice a lot at one point otto's defense attorney was like wow so so roy could have been Dolly's basement lover. Oh. Okay, so this pissed Roy off. Because obviously, you know, everyone's calling Otto Batman, bad lover, addict lover.

He did not want to become basement lover. So he sued Otto's attorney for slander for $100,000. At one point in this trial, the the prosecution and the defense took a field trip to the home where otto had allegedly shot fred the jury looked at where otto had been made to live in secret this sounds like the weirdest thing so well and i mean good on the defense they wanted to see this inhumane existence So the jurors had to climb into the dark makeshift room through this little cubbyhole in the closet. And by the time they came out, they were dripping in sweat. It was awful. In closing arguments, the prosecution once again pushed for the death penalty.

On July 1st, a jury of six men and six women went into deliberation for seven hours. They found him. What do you think? Not guilty by reason of insanity. They found him guilty of manslaughter. And that carried a one to ten year sentence. But Earl Wakeman was a really good lawyer. So he was like, whoa, judge, before we go any further, you should know that the statute of limitations for manslaughter has expired.

And the judge was like, I'll be damned. and the judge was like i'll be damned yeah for manslaughter he would have had to have been prosecuted within three years of fred's death these statute of limitations i don't get them at all you still did the crime yeah so by this point they were like eight years from his death so the judge set the verdict aside and otto was just free to go oh my gosh i mean yeah like that guy yeah poor guy a few months later in august of 1930 dolly's trial began district attorney burren fitz wanted the jury to believe that dolly and otto had conspired together to kill fred he talked all about how she'd hidden Otto away in her attics. He called the witnesses who Dolly asked to dispose of the guns.

He called the detectives who were all like, yeah, she lied to us a ton. He talked about Fred's diamond watch, which was supposedly taken but then magically reappeared. But the prosecution had a big problem. Their star witness was supposed to be Herman Shapiro. But Herman didn't want to leave

St. Louis. He didn't want to see Dolly again. The prosecution issued a subpoena, but Herman was like, that's nice. I'm not coming. And he didn't. Oh my gosh. How is that how is that i don't know it's not i see your subpoena and i say goodbye yeah meanwhile the defense

all things considered was pretty strong dolly hired this awesome up-and-coming lawyer named Jerry Geisler. G-I-E-S-L-E-R. Sure. This guy later became a huge fucking deal. Okay, we always talk about Clarence Darrow as the big lawyer back in the day. Get this. In 1912, Clarence Darrow was sued for attempting to bribe prospective jurors. So he hired a few lawyers to represent him,

and one of the lawyers had this young guy on the staff, and it was Jerry. Jerry did such a good job that after Clarence was acquitted of the charges, Clarence offered him a job back in Chicago. Wow. But Jerry refused. He stayed in L.A. and ended up working on a ton of major cases, including cases for Charlie Chaplin, Marilyn Monroe's divorce, Zsa Zsa Gabor. He became this huge big deal. So anyway, Dolly had this insanely good lawyer.

Yeah. And she testified in her own defense. She cried on the stand and she had her head bowed, and she was like, Oh, in my heyday, when I was youthful and beautiful, I acted so foolishly. But you must understand the truth. Otto didn't kill Fred because he was worried about my safety. He certainly didn't do it because I asked him to. He did it because he was

jealous. On the night of Fred's murder, she said, Fred kissed me and said, Dolly, you look good tonight. And I slipped down to the rug. Otto, standing on the stairs, yelled, Stop!

And shot. They scuffled and I heard more shots. of fucking shit dolly yeah so the first time like your husband hits on you for the first time in 10 years yeah and all of a sudden otto's jealous no she said that after otto shot fred he took her by the hands and pushed her into the closet, and he locked the door. He left and came back and said, We've got to say it was burglars. And she agreed. She said she lied to police and gave the guns away because she knew Otto didn't mean to do it. Otto also testified.

But he told them the same nonsense that he said at his own trial. Yeah. He was just tucked away in his little hidey hole, had no idea what happened. He just knew that Dolly seemed very frightened the whole time. The jury went into deliberation and emerged three days later. What do you think? I think they found her not guilty. They deadlocked. So the rumor is that nine of them favored conviction and three didn't. But either way,

they were deadlocked and no one was willing to change their minds. Finally, the judge dismissed the jury. A few months later in December, the district attorney asked the judge to dismiss the indictment against Dolly. They had no new evidence. They knew they'd never get her. Over the years, Dolly invested her money wisely. Her fortune grew. When she was 69 years old, she married Bert Hendrick. He was 65.

Bert is not a new character in the story. He's the guy. Yeah. Okay. You remember. I remember his name. Dolly died 16 days after they got married. And that's the story of the secret lover in the attic.

That was fucking crazy. Isn't that nuts yeah i mean that story like took the world by storm understandably yeah i just think it's crazy some of these cases that like become so huge in their day and then we just totally forget about yeah i can see how she got off though because yeah because, yeah, you don't have enough. There's not enough. No. Wow. That was nuts. Yeah, I loved that. Thank you, Canadian Mark.

Good story, eh? Are you ready to talk about an unsolved mystery? I hate unsolved shit. I kind of want a drink. Do you mind if I get, like, in addition to my two? Let me see. It looks like you have drinks. This is going to be a big girl drink. Things are getting wild.

Are you still doing your iced tea? I'm good with my tea. Thank you. You're wild tonight. I've got my whiskey. I'm like an old-timey cowboy. I love it. Is this a...

I hate unsolved. Hmm. Hmm. And yet, you do this to me anyway. Hmm. I like resolution. Is it really unsolved? Oh, great.

So justice doesn't get served. Okay, I hate that even more. Perhaps we'll find out together. No, I hate that. Well, I don't know. We'll find out together. No, I hate that. Well, I don't know.

Sharon Hill was just 16 years old in 1956 when she met James Kinney at a church social in Independence, Missouri. What? Oh, my God. I'm so excited. In Independence, Missouri. I was born there. Yes, and it's part of the Kansas City metro area. Great place for meth, I've heard. Little town of meth land. James was shy, and he was a Mormon, and he was in town for the summer he attended school in provo utah um and he was 22

so oh no no years older absolutely not sharon but the two were smitten with each other sharon was blonde and beautiful. And a child. And despite his religious upbringing, the two entered into a heated sexual relationship. They went hot and heavy all summer. But then the summer ended and James had to return to Utah

to continue his studies. What role does Independence, Missouri play in Mormonism? Isn't it like the place, right? Yeah, it's one of the places where John Smith John Smith? I think so. Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith.

John Jacob Jingleheimer. Where Joseph Smith set up one of his. There's a temple there. Yes. Joseph Smith had a, you know, a settlement there. I'm sorry. You didn't prepare to. I'm sorry.

I don't know the entire history of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Well, damn it, Brandy. We're supposed to be experts. So the summer ends. He heads back to Utah. And Sharon is heartbroken. They start corresponding by mail. And Sharon just can't get over him.

So she writes him. And she tells him that she's pregnant. But she's not really pregnant? She's not really pregnant. Oh, no. She lied. Okay. So James does the right thing.

He leaves Provo. He comes back to Independence. And they get married almost immediately. They start living next door to his parents, who live also in Independence. And they set up a little... Wait, his parents live in... Yeah, that's what he was doing here for the summer. Oh, right.

Okay. Sorry. Gotcha. So they move in next door to his parents, and they set up this little life together. Only Sharon's not pregnant, and people are going to start wondering why she's not showing. So she fakes a miscarriage.

But later that year, Sharon actually did become pregnant. And so the little family was born when they welcomed their daughter named. Go for it. Dana, maybe, or Dana. I've never heard the name Dana, but it's why would it be dana it's got two n's oh yeah d-a-n-n-a if it's dana that's a dumb way to spell it i agree by 1959 sharon was over james he was vanilla And she needed some flavor in her life. I think I know this story.

Oh. I think I do. Do you? Yeah. Don't I? I mean, it's... I had never heard of it. Okay, I'm going to say something. Hmm. Yeah, okay. So she needs some flavor in her life.

And so she starts hooking up on the side with a former high school boyfriend named John something with a B. John B. Boldizzes. Oh, beautiful. Boldizzes. Boldizzes. um boldizes oh beautiful boldizes there's a z and an s right next to each other how the fuck is that pronounced i don't know with confidence probably john boldizes um who happened to be an ice cream vendor oh he had all the flavors, Kristen. Wait, wait, was he really an ice cream? He really was.

I mean, that would be great, right? Or do you think you'd just get sick of ice cream? No, I think I'd love it. This is my dream, man. So this is going on. There's rumors flying around james it's believed figures out that sharon is banging the ice sleeping around sure but he wasn't willing to admit that his marriage was over and he wanted to keep trying to work things out but sharon told him that she wanted a divorce she wanted a divorce and in that divorce she wanted to keep their him that she wanted a divorce. She wanted a divorce. And in that divorce, she wanted to keep their house.

And she wanted $1,000. Adjusted for inflation? I don't know. I didn't do it. Just $1,000? Just $1,000. That doesn't seem like. It doesn't sound like that much.

Let's see. Like $1,000 a month? No, I just said $1,000. Well, come on, Sharon. Although, I guess she did cheat on him, so. Like $8,500. That's not that much money. No, I mean, what are you going to buy?

Like a used Prius, maybe? A used Prius. So, James is not willing to give up on this marriage. He actually goes and talks to his parents about it, and they're like, no, no, you don't get divorced. You continue working on this. By this time, Sharon is pregnant with their second child. Who knows who the dad is? Who knows?

She gives birth to a boy they named Troy and she's still unhappy. And now she still wants the divorce. She wants to keep the house. She wants the thousand dollars. But she only wants to keep the daughter. He can have the boy. Oh god. That's messed up.

Yes. Poor little guy. Yes. Also poor little girl. I mean, you know what I mean. But again, James is not willing to end his marriage. Oh, no. And then, on March 19th, 1961.

Uh-oh, James. on March 19th, 1961. Uh-oh, James. The home of the Kennys was quiet. Have you looked up their home? I did actually have their address. I don't know what I have right now. I've looked up their address before. You have?

Yeah. So you really know this story. Yeah, I like, it's one of those, you know how we talk about like scripts we've halfway done and then we're like, this is a lot of work. Do we stop? story yeah i like it's one of those you know how we talk about like scripts we've halfway done and then like a lot of work doing stuff yeah like i've i've looked up their house yeah i've looked up i looked up their house it's just a ranch and it's just like a little bungalow yeah but they built it

like oh wow yeah is an independence so it's march 19th 1961 the kenny home is quiet. James Kinney is napping in the master bedroom. Sharon Kinney is making herself beautiful in the bathroom. Okay. When all of a sudden, a single gunshot rings out through the house. Sharon. Runs to the bedroom. No. And there.

Sharon was in the bedroom. Dead. And there... Sharon was in the bedroom. Dead on the bed is James Kinney. The shooter was none other than two-and-a-half-year-old Dana. Oh, come on. Who was playing with her father's gun and accidentally shot him to death. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'd like to know the angle of the bullet.

You don't think it's possible, Kristen? I think it's definitely possible for a child to accidentally shoot someone. But I think it's mighty convenient that our good buddy Sharon or Shannon or what's her name? Sharon. She wanted to get rid of this guy and now all of a sudden he's gone. It was a terrible accident, Kristen, as Sharon told the police. Sure. She had heard Dana in the bedroom asking her daddy to play with her,

and then every now and again she'd run into the bedroom or into the bathroom where sharon was and she'd say go go play with your father and it this was not unusual they often allowed their two and a half year old no to play with them the many handguns they had in the house. No, she didn't say that. Yes. Clearly I didn't get very far in this case. I read like the Wikipedia page like a year ago. That is amazing. Yes.

Yeah, why wouldn't you let your child play with a gun? And the police were like. Blocks are expensive. That's right. And the police were like very skeptical, much like you were about this weird situation and so they start investigating it until they actually have two and a half year old dana demonstrate that she can pull the trigger on the 22 caliber pistol and once she demonstrates that she can do it they determined that it must They determined that it must have been true. It must

have been a horrible accident. Just because she can do it, she did do it. Yes! Logic flop. Boom! I did okay on the LSAT, I can tell you. It just appeared that it was nothing more than a horrible accident.

Accidental homicide. It happens every day. Two and a half year old children shooting their parents. How hard is that? I mean, surely it's pretty hard. I would think it's pretty hard, but she demonstrated for the police that she could do it. but she demonstrated for the police that she could do it. Sharon said that it was something that John often did with his daughter,

cleaning the gun and showing her how it worked and whatever. With his two-and-a-half-year-old. You really got to wait until three. So it was ruled an accident. Sharon got a good chunk of life insurance, I think. More than $1,000. Yeah, I think adjusted for inflation, I looked it up, it's somewhere around like $38,000 or something like that. So not a huge chunk of money, but enough.

More than she'd asked for. That's correct. And once that check cleared, Sharon headed herself over to Kansas City where she bought herself a new powder blue Thunderbird. It was the car she'd wanted for years. She'd been asking John for it. He wasn't interested in buying it. And finally, she had the cash. Treat yourself. She got herself the car.

She also picked herself up a nice new lover while she was there. A salesman named Walter Jones, who Sharon was in the market for a car. Walter was in the market for a little side action. Oh, no. Yes. Why am I acting like that's the most tragic part? Walter had a wife and kids at home.

Oh great. A lot of good people so far in this story. Yes. So he and Sharon Kenny kind of struck up an affair right away. Despite the fact that he was married with kids at home. Details. Right.

And over the next few weeks, they met up several times, went on a few dates, spent the night in a hotel on a couple of occasions. But things started to kind of cool off when Walter said he had no interest in leaving his wife. Right. He just wanted the side piece. He just wanted the side piece. He was not looking to leave his family for Sharon.

What happened to the ice cream man? Did she? Oh, he'll pop back up. Okay, okay. I just don't see how you can just leave an ice cream man. So he's like, yeah, no, I'm not planning to leave my wife. Like, I'm happy, you know, doing what we're doing here. Like, I'll keep banging you but yeah i'm not looking for anything else and so sharon was pissed okay about that and so sharon decided that uh oh no did she kill the wife? Well, she was just going to tell his wife, Patricia, what he'd been up to.

No. Why? Poor Patricia. Get cheated on and you get murdered? That's not fair. Yeah. So Sharon calls up Patricia and asks her to meet her somewhere. They set a meeting for May 26, 1960 at some intersection somewhere in Kansas City.

1960 at some intersection somewhere in Kansas City. So they meet. And Patricia went missing. Oh, this story is crazy because I remember none of this. This is crazy. So Patricia, the last time anyone saw Patricia was when she got dropped off by friends at an intersection. They watched her walk away and get into a powder blue Thunderbird. Okay, mystery solved.

Yes. So when Patricia failed to return home that night. Oh, no. Okay, my favorite part of our last episode was when I sneezed and when you were trying to keep it together. You don't seem as grossed out this time. Oh, yeah. Oh, you are?

You're just covering it? Yeah, I'm trying to keep it under control because I made you look at my tonsil blisters. Those were crazy. Yeah. I mean, have you ever seen Harmony, like a chunk of Harmony? Yeah. That's what it looked like on your tonsils.

On my tonsils, yeah. You're beautiful. Do you want me to stop? Poor Patricia. Yeah. So when Patricia fails to return home that night, Walter's like, oh, fuck. Yeah, he knows what's up. Something definitely happened.

And then he finds out when he starts, like, calling around to Patricia's friends and coworkers or whatever. She worked for the IRS. And so, like, she left her office job. Those were the last people that saw her. So he calls and talks to a couple of them and they find out that she was going to some meeting, going to meet this some woman. And he's like, fuck, it was Sharon for sure.

So he confronts Sharon. And he later told police that he even held a knife to Sharon's throat and demanded that she tell him what she had done with his wife. Buddy, I mean. But Sharon said she had no idea. She hadn't seen her. So a couple days go by, and the police receive a call from our old buddy the ice cream man. Right. What did we say his name was?

It's not that you've forgotten. It's not, no. I'm testing you guys. John B., right? No, John's her husband. But it was also the ice cream man. No, it is John. Yeah.

Oh, shit. James is her husband. James is her husband. I'm pretty sure I messed that up earlier. James is her husband. John's the lover on the side. I'm pretty sure I fucked that up earlier, so I apologize. Well, that's it.

We're quitting the podcast because you made a mistake. I've never made any errors on this podcast. You've sullied our perfect track record. Right. So, a couple days later, the police get a phone call from John

John the Ice Cream Man. I'm'm sorry i don't know why i found that so funny yes okay and he says that so over these couple of days it's been very well known in the kansas city area that patricia is missing and there's been search parties and whatever and so john john the ice cream man tells the police that he and Sharon were just out, you know, looking for Patricia. Helping with the search effort. And they got a little bored. And so they were like, hey, we're going to go to Lover's Lane and make out instead. And so when they drove to their make out spot, they just happened to kind of spot something just like a little bit ways off from where they were parked.

And they were pretty sure that it was Patricia's body. Come on. Come on. John. It was just complete happenstance that they happened to be there. Who gets bored and horny at a search party? Well, I mean. That's ridiculous no and so sharon had made john promise that if he was going to tell the police that they that he knew where patricia's body was that he had to say that she wasn't with him

but he didn't do that right so she was pretty pissed at him about that well if i were him i'd be quite worried about making her angry good lord so police go to where they said that they saw what they initially believed was some discarded clothing and then on closer inspection they they believe it was Patricia's body. So police go there. Sure enough, there's Patricia. She's been shot four times in the torso, like in the shape of a cross. Oh, geez.

Yeah. That's weird. Yes. In fact, it is. so in the meantime like the police had been investigating patricia's husband walter because that's always the first person you look into but he had passed a polygraph and so they're like we don't know who did it then yeah because in 1960 they believed those polygraphs so now they've got two new suspects sh Sharon and John John the Ice Cream Man. Yeah.

And so John agrees to take a lie detector test. And Sharon refused to give an official statement, take any test, nothing. Weird. So John passes his polygraph. Do you really think he truly had nothing to do with it and she lured him out to this place and let him discover it yes yeah i totally do yeah i mean that makes sense yeah i totally believe that and he was just a man who loved some rocky road and found a dead body and didn't put two and two together yeah oh boy so. So on June 1st, 1961, Sharon was arrested and charged with Patricia's murder, even though the only evidence they had in the crime was circumstantial.

There was no weapon. There was no direct evidence that Sharon had ever met with Patricia. Everything that they had was kind of secondhand information all circumstances it's just like my case where it everyone kind of knows what happened but they can't prove it oh shit they had a witness who said that he was a former co-worker of Sharon's and that he had bought a 22 caliber pistol for her once uh-huh but again just one person's story could not produce that weapon and sharon admitted that she used to own a 22 caliber gun even after a 22 caliber pistol was used to kill her husband in that accidental shooting by her well sure you have to admit it because your daughter was the one who used it. So during that one,

the police took that as evidence for that crime. So then she had a friend purchase her another one and she admitted that that was the case. But, you know, she had taken that with her

on a trip to Washington State and she'd accidentally left it behind. Oopsies. Yes. Oopsies. That's how I am with all my weapons. I let the two and a half year old

play with them and I just scatter them about. That's right. By June of 1961. Like June 13th-ish of 1961. Why ish? That's so specific. Because it's weird. All these dates are different in these kind of older articles.

Oh, are they? Oh. And so. Don't bore me with a disclaimer. Somewhere around June 13th, 1961, Sharon Kenny went on trial for the murder of Patricia Jones. Like I said, it was a very circumstantial case. Yeah, they had no shot in hell. It was an all-male jury.

And she was very good looking. So, may I? Okay. This is somewhat totally off topic. Okay. I saw the other day, someone said, it was was their opinion that being attractive is the biggest privilege on earth what do you think of that like bigger than male privilege bigger than white privilege like i don't know that it's bigger than either of those but i think it's definitely a privilege. Okay, well, that's the most boring response ever.

I'm sorry. But. I'm kind of with you, though. What? You have to believe that you're attractive for it to be a privilege. Yeah, you have no power. May I make fun of you a little bit? Yes, you can.

Okay. Okay. Audience. Audience. a little bit yes you can okay okay audience so you've been hot for like forever i had i know you had no idea no idea and it's weird to like tell your hot friend that she's hot because like why do you state the obvious like it'd be like by the way brandy you have two legs and two eyes. But like, yeah, you've had no idea. Had no idea.

No. Welcome to your awakening. Thank you. It's been quite the joy. When did you figure it out? um honestly like as shitty as my situation has been going through this like sucky divorce like yeah i feel better about myself than i have in years like i realized that i didn't see myself how other people saw me like yeah i've started dating like this awesome guy who thinks i'm like the most beautiful person in the world.

He doesn't think it. He knows it. It's just crazy. Like I legit had no idea. That makes me really sad, but really happy at the same time. But no, I think, yeah, like everyone has always seen you as so bubbly and fun and cool and awesome. Yeah, and I have always thought that I had a great personality. Like I thought that was my thing.

You thought you were just a total uggo. It's just not true. It's just never been true. Thank you. I appreciate it. Freaking nuts. Anyway, so yes, to your point, I think that you have to be aware that you're attractive for it to be a privilege. Otherwise, you're just like, I'm just a real nice person.

Yes. I really have always, like, I've always been a person that people just, like, will talk to and approach. And I just thought I had a very approachable demeanor. Well, I think you do. Yeah. No, it's also because you're hot. No, thank you. You've had so many weird... Well, I mean, having creepy guys come up to you.

Yeah, creepy guys don't really make you feel like you're super attractive. Yes, I do often have creepy guys come up to me, but I did not. I don't think those two correlate. You don't think of it as a win? I'm sorry. I don't know what generation I'm from where that's like, well, you know, the creepy old man wanted to ban you, so hey. Good on you. Okay, I'm sorry no totally sidetracked but i'm glad you bragged about your boyfriend thank you i like him yeah you got to meet him yeah except it was at

movie night so we didn't do a lot of talking we did not plan well at all no you know movie night is not where you meet somebody. Yeah. But I liked him. Good. Nonetheless. Yeah. So now we'll have to have a talking night. Yes.

That sounds terrible. No, I told him we'd take him out for wings at our favorite wing place. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Excellent. Excellent.

Take two. You know what? I think that's an excellent idea because you have to be really comfortable to eat wings in front of people. Oh, you're right. Yeah. Like if I were out with people I didn't know very well, I'd be like, I don't know. I'm not very into wings. Let me just nibble on them.

Yeah. You got to be really comfortable with yourself to go all in and get the wing sauce all over everywhere. Yeah. I'm telling you, David will do it. Okay. Very good. He's in. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. We can continue. Okay. Oh, you said his name, too. Oh, did I? Oh, my gosh. Hello, David.

See, I had avoided saying his name because I noticed you didn't say his name. All right. Hi, David. How's it going? He's a big fan of the podcast. Wouldn't it be funny if he wasn't? It's like, this kind of

sucks. I really like her. Sorry, back to murder. Okay, so the opening arguments by both the prosecution and the defense kind of set up the case on varying opinions on the time of death. Okay.

So it's 1961. That was not an exact science. It's still not an exact science today. No. It's very difficult to determine time of death. I've tried it many times. No, but I do think it would be super, super difficult. Yeah.

No, but I do think it would be super, super difficult. Yeah. So the prosecution claimed that Patricia had died more than 24 hours before Sharon and John John the Ice Cream Man found her body. But the defense said that the death had occurred more like six to eight hours prior. And so they said that the fact that she had been... Oh, she didn't have time to... Uh-huh. Okay, okay. Uh-huh.

Gotcha. Exactly, exactly. But the expert testimony by a pathologist kind of went the way of the prosecution. He kind of agreed with what their timeline was. Because it wasn't bullshit? Right. Okay, great. Great. their timeline was because it wasn't bullshit right okay great great and as far as motive the

prosecution put forth that sharon had said during interrogations that she felt that walter was drifting away from her and that she had tried to get him to stay by offering like financial support and stuff like that because she had all this money now because of that insurance payout well geez she didn't have like she didn't have like she wasn't like limitless money no she wasn't uncle pennybags who's uncle pennybags the monopoly guy oh sorry we just had this at trivia night kristin listen i only go to trivia night for the snacks and the fun i just hope everyone has a great time i gotta tell you so our trivia night team yeah it was basically you casey and norm and the rest of us were just enjoying ourselves we came in second did we yeah did you think we won you know i knew we didn't

win because i knew you and Norman weren't happy enough. Well, and Casey, too. Casey's just like you, too. Yes. Very competitive. Yeah, I didn't know we did that well. That's great. Yeah.

Second place. Yeah. Wow. By the way, something that I've left out at this point, Sharon was pregnant again at this point. They actually had to postpone her trial until she gave birth. Why? I don't know. It's 1961.

Yes. Weird time. So she's given birth to a third child at this point. Who fucking knows who the dad is to that one? Okay, gotcha. Who knows? Gotcha. The prosecution had all of these hurdles because

everything that they had was circumstantial they were unable to firmly establish that sharon had owned or had ever had um in her possession the weapon that killed patricia okay so both the weapon that somebody testified that she they had bought for her and the weapon that had killed her husband previously were both.22 calibers, the same thing that killed Patricia. They couldn't produce an actual weapon and produce ballistic tests that matched that gun to Patricia's death. This is so frustrating. Uh-huh. And Patricia had children, right? So that's so frustrating. Uh-huh. And Patricia had children, right? So. Yeah. That's so sad. Yeah.

So the trial lasted about a week. They, the prosecution called somewhere around 25, 30 witnesses. Sharon's defense was very limited. They, she didn't testify in her own defense and they didn't really offer a lot of things. They just poked holes in what the prosecution had said. Sure. What can you say? Yeah. The jury deliberated for one and a half hours. Really? Yes. Wow. What do you think

they found? Not guilty. They didn't have enough. Correct. They found her not guilty. They said't have enough. Correct. They found her not guilty. They said there were just too many holes in the prosecution's case. Yeah. Yeah. So she was completely acquitted of Patricia's murder.

Wow. But she wasn't free to go. Why not? Because they had, during the time that she was being tried for Patricia's murder, they had charged her with the murder of her husband, James Kinney. Oh. So they had gone back and looked at that case and they're like, maybe a two and a half year old didn't kill him. Maybe we were total dumbasses before. Okay. So on January 8th, 1962, Sharon Kinney went on trial for the murder of her husband.

The prosecution rested their case largely on the contention that Sharon had been so interested in seeing her husband removed from her life that she was willing to pay for his murder. Sure. So John John the Ice Cream Man actually testified that he had been offered $1,000 by Sharon to kill James Cain. Oh my gosh. But see, it didn't go well because the defense was actually able to spin his testimony a little bit when he was on the stand. And he admitted that he thought it was a joke when she said it. That he didn't even at the time think she was serious.

What do you think about that? I can see how you could manipulate someone into saying that and part of that shaming would be well you wouldn't have stayed with someone right who who asked you to do that yeah while on the stand, John Bull, Bull, uh, said that she had offered him $1,000 to kill her husband. And then on cross-examination, the defense was like, um, why don't you expand on that conversation? And so John said, you know, I said to her, man, I'd like to carry you off if you wasn't married. I said to her, man, I'd like to carry you off if you wasn't married. And Sharon had said back, well, I'll just give you a grand and you can knock off my old man. And Sharon's defense attorney had asked him if he thought that was a joke.

And he said, yeah, it was just like if I'd say to you, I'd give you $100 to jump off City Hall. Well, buddy. God. Okay, it was a lot easier to manipulate him than I thought it would be. So, the prosecution's tactic was to kind of sully the reputation of Sharon. Sure was sleeping around she's got a bunch of kids but who knows who and and so her attorney attempted to kind of like smooth that over and told the jurors it's not your role to judge her for being loose. That's true, though. It is true. We need to put that on a banner somewhere. Exactly. This is not what we're discussing at this trial.

Although I think loose is such a... Well, and so he clarified and said, whatever breach of the moral law she has suffered and her God will chastise her. That's a great way of putting it yeah yeah don't worry about it god's got it yeah um did you know in the south when they are describing like a hyper person or a person just got a ton of energy they call them wide open okay your reaction what your reaction just now i was once at a party in the south it was in north carolina it was like a work party yeah and someone referred to their female friend as wide open and I was just like whoa that is the nastiest rudest thing I've ever it I mean luckily it was explained because of the look on my face but can you believe that I mean doesn't that sound like something totally different yes wide open wide Yes. Wide open. Wide open. Woo.

Woo. Woo. I know, right? Aren't you scandalized? I am. I don't like it at all. So after five and a half hours of deliberation, the jury found Sharon. Oh, God.

What do you think? You're going to say not guilty, aren't you? I don't know. Am I? You are. They found her guilty. Oh. Of first degree murder.

Oh, wow. And she was sentenced to life in prison. Wow. Yes. Oh, wow. told her attorneys that she was confident that she would be freed on appeal and she was right in 1963 the missouri supreme court found enough errors in the trial record that she was granted a new trial oh you're kidding me yeah isn't that nuts oh this is so upsetting yeah i just bumped the microphone i'm sorry i'm angry i'm wide open right now so um the defense motion requested that the conviction be vacated because the jury had delivered its verdict based on surmise and speculation rather than substantial evidence so they said.

It's too circumstantial. There wasn't enough evidence to convict. And the Missouri Supreme Court was like. We actually think you're right. So retrial. But with what new evidence. Right. You're killing me Smalls.

So Sharon Kinney. put on trial for a second time for the murder of her husband on March 23rd, 1964. And initially, the public was barred from the proceedings. The court was closed. Nobody was welcome in. No journalists, nothing. And then as the proceedings went on, they actually loosened the stipulations and finally the press was allowed in.

You can't really do that. I know. I mean, that's... Yeah. They were in the jury selection when all of a sudden the judge declared a mistrial what yes in jury selection jury selection so it turned out that a law partner of the prosecutor had once been retained as the

personal lawyer of one of the jurors that had been selected. And so they declared a mistrial. They didn't have like a backup? No, I guess not. I guess it was like too far in, I guess. Oh, good Lord. Oh my gosh. So second trial ends in a mistrial. Okay.

So she's tried a third time. Her third trial began in June of 1964. And this time, the prosecutor declared that he was going to death qualify the jury, which meant that he intended to seek the death penalty at this trial. I don't know what the fuck he thought. He had some great new evidence or something that he was going to all of a sudden... We've ended in conviction, but it was overturned because you didn't have enough evidence,

and then we got a mistrial because... Yeah, where was his confidence coming from? Where's his confidence coming from that he's going to... Now he's going to get the death penalty. He was attractive and he knew it. That must be it. And so this trial was very much like the first one.

John John the Ice Cream Man testified again about the $1,000. And it was also, you know, the defense brought up that Heath had thought it was a joke at the time, blah, blah, blah. And then there was this new witness that was brought forward. This female acquaintance of Sharon's that had been like in a friend group of hers but not been super good friends with her okay said that um that they had joked in this group that they should all get rid of their husbands the way that Sharon had gotten rid of hers but who said that exactly that's kind of fell apart on cross-examination she couldn't give specific details.

She was pretty much discredited. It didn't do a lot. Right. The difference in this trial to her first one is that Sharon actually took the stand. And she was on the stand for a short amount of time on the last day of her trial. And she basically just denied all of the charges against her sure so this time it was again an all-male jury geez and they deadlocked see that's what i was expecting more with the first one they deadlocked seven to five in favor of an acquittal and another mistrial was declared they had to give up at this

point right no what a fourth trial this is exhausting was scheduled for october of 1964 but in the meantime sharon is out awaiting trial she's taken a new lover. And so she travels to Mexico with her lover. Where in Mexico? I don't know. I don't know that I came across exactly where she went. Okay. So she and this lover go to Mexico.

It's September of 1964 at this point. And she and this lover get in some kind of quarrel at this hotel that they're staying at. And she storms out of their hotel room, and she goes to a bar nearby where she meets this man, Francisco Paredes Ordonez. Okay. I'm sure I pronounced that horribly. He is actually an American-born man who is now living in Mexico. Okay. And she said that they were having a good time at the bar when all of a sudden she began to feel ill. And so this man, Francisco, offered to take her to his hotel room and so they get to the hotel room she lays down he takes off her his jacket gets her a glass of water and he you know she's trying to kind of get her wits about her and all of a sudden he starts coming on to her making advances and so she goes to push him away and he hits her and he knees her in the stomach and he hits her several times and then he covered her mouth so

she couldn't scream but don't you worry kristen she managed to fight him off. She threw him to the ground, and she grabbed the pistol she had in her handbag. Oh, come on. Come on. And she shot him. Oh. She's not really sure how many times. Once, twice. Who really knows?

Three times a lady. And then, as she's trying to escape from this madman. Who she shot. Uh-huh. She opens the door, and there's a hotel clerk. And he startles her. Oh, no. And opens the door and there's a hotel clerk and she startled, he startles her. Oh no.

And so she shoots him too. No. She shoots him too. No. Serial killer. Yeah, what's our body count at now? Four, right? The hotel clerk survives.

Good for him. Three bodies. That makes her technically a serial killer. So she is arrested and she claims self-defense. But she is tried in Mexico for the murder of this Francisco. And this time they find her guilty. Well, in Mexico, you're presumed guilty. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. The presumption of innocence is not there. No, that's correct. And so she is found guilty and she is sentenced to 10 years in prison. Good. I'm glad somebody finally got her. She gets this.

She is given a nickname in Mexico. La Pistol. Pistol. Yes. La Pistolera. The gunfighter. Yeah. So she's convicted and sentenced to 10 years in prison so she appeals her conviction uh-huh only

she really shouldn't have done that because the appeals process doesn't really work the same way in mexico it's a dozen united states i love this and she actually gets three more years added to her term after her appeal really yes what's the deal with that like they're like oh wait no you're super guilty yeah they're like well actually we feel like they went a little too too lenient on you here's three more years hilarious i love yes so that happened in september um and she was convicted in October. So, oh, October of 1965. Okay. Okay. So she goes to prison in Mexico.

But this is not the end of Sharon Kinney. Oh, no. I told you, if you'll recall in the beginning. That this is an unsolved mystery. Isn't it Patricia's death that's unsolved? I don't know. Is it? Oh, no. On December 7th, 1969.

So four years have gone by. Sharon's actually doing pretty well in Mexican prison. She's picked up the language. She's making friends. Whatever. She's not present. gone by sharon's actually doing pretty well in mexican prison she's picked up the language she's making friends whatever okay she's not present for bunk checks at 5 p.m no in her prison no but her absence wasn't noted like no one she didn't get officially marked missing. It wasn't until the evening or the night rounds that they noticed that she was

missing. And it wasn't officially reported until 2 a.m. the following morning that Sharon Kenny was nowhere to be found. What? On December 7th 1969, Sharon Kenny escaped Mexican prison. How? found what on december 7th 1969 sharon kenny escaped mexican prison how so there's lots of

different theories she hooked up with one of the guards guards yep yep yep that she became very close to the guards the guards helped her escape the guards helped her climbed over the climb over the prison walls um there was like a weird mysterious power outage the day that she went missing. Uh-huh. So there's lots of theories. No one really knows. She's never been seen or heard from again. Yeah.

No way. Yep. That is the craziest story. So, it is believed that she could still be alive today. Sure she could. Sure. Living, they believe, the most believed version is that she left Mexico

and went to Guatemala, and that she's been living there under an assumed identity. She'd be 79 years old today. Wow. And that is the story of the longest outstanding warrant for murder in the state of Missouri. Oh! She still has an active arrest warrant for murder in the state of Missouri.

That story was amazing. Is that not nuts? Isn't that fascinating to think about like someone has seen her out on the streets and thought nothing. You know?

Multiple people. I mean everyone has seen her out and thought nothing of her. She's just some little old woman now. Yeah.

So some people believe that because she's never been tied to any more murders that she's actually dead but i don't believe you can turn it off like that do you um no i don't i think that she's like that so um some of the articles go into more of like the motive behind it and how she was clearly like a sociopath and all of this stuff and yeah so i think that like she's probably killed more people i think so yeah i think she's just gotten better at it yeah yeah yeah so i had i you had heard of that case before i had never heard of it Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I had, I, you had heard of that case before. I had never heard of it.

So my friend Sandy, who like such a sweetheart, she listened to like our earliest episodes. Really shitty ones. We thought they were great. And that's all that matters. We were having fun. How about that?

We were having fun. So she sent were having fun so she sent a ton of recommendations uh-huh i did most of them yeah uh but for some reason that one i just kind of like stalled out on yeah that's so good that case was actually profiled on unsolved mysteries uh-huh several years back yeah yeah yeah well obviously. Yeah. It's not on anymore. But yeah, I thought that was nuts. That she could just be out there living. And that there's still an active warrant for her arrest. Well, and that Patricia's children are probably still in the Kansas City area.

Oh, yeah. I'm sure. Wow. Yeah. That's weird to think about. Yeah. That was good. Yeah. I have a ton of show notes that I didn't write down. I have show notes too. Okay. You first. Well, okay. So, first one. You know how I was like, oh, you know, like, so I did hot coffee. Yeah. I guess this would be two weeks from a week ago. Whatever. Whatever. Anyway.

And I knew that someone had recommended that case, like, a long time ago. I am still convinced that it was someone we don't know. But my mother texted me this week and said, Wow, wish you could have given your mother credit for the McDonald's hot coffee case. Also, do you remember the case I did with the lottery rigging? Yeah. With the... Yes, my favorite case ever. Yes. The juvenile rigging. Yeah. With the. Yes. My favorite case ever. Yes.

Yes. Juvenile Bigfoot. Yeah. So my mom sent me this this article. Headline is Colorado man split four point eight million dollar jackpot with brothers who rigged the game once full amount. OK. Are you ready for this.

A man who split a winning four point eight million dollar Colorado lotto jackpot with two brothers who were eventually convicted of rigging the numbers says he is owed the full amount because he played the game fairly. No, he did not. Uh-huh. Bottom line, he wants all the money now. Buddy. Sorry, bud. No.

Nope. Not going to happen. No. I have one more. Okay. One more show note. So this last case you did about um was it megan meyer yeah yeah okay and you talked a lot about myspace uh-huh so our friend danielle

texted me and she goes i'm sure you have heard this but as in sync fans i can't believe you didn't touch on jt saving myspace i'm offended, you already knew about this? Yeah. Okay, I didn't know. So I was like, I didn't know about this. And she goes, girl, bye bye bye. She goes, he bought a big chunk of it in like 2011 with the goal of changing the music industry and shifting it to being music

focused. So instead of following your friends, you could follow your favorite MySpace band or band on MySpace. It made a tiny splash. so i won't read the whole thing yeah but you already knew about that i knew about that yeah he basically wasted all of his money oh well not all of the money that he sunk into that like it did not work out for him really apparently i didn't even hear this in that case case, you know, it was all about MySpace. Apparently, I call it Facebook somewhere. Yeah.

One of our listeners said that on. See, here's the deal. I knew I did it. I'm trying to see if people are paying attention. Oh. Brilliant. Not at all. Not at all. I didn't hear it the first time.

Didn't hear it while editing. Nope. Yep. Nope. Nope. Didn't happen. No. I'm not convinced i said anything

what are your show notes okay so it's kind of become my favorite thing at the end of these episodes to talk about crazy lawsuits that are yeah sure oh my gosh this one i came across the other day and it's maybe my favorite one yet a an indiana man is suing his parents for getting rid of his vast pornography collection, which he estimates is worth $29,000. No, no. Ew. Gross. No. The 40-year-old man filed a lawsuit in federal court that said when he moved in with his parents following a 2016 divorce that he moved in his pornography collection.

And when he moved out 10 months later, they delivered his things to his new home in Indiana, but that his 12 boxes of pornographic films and magazines were missing. His parents admit they dumped the porn, which included titles such as frisky business and big bad grannies. How is that worth $29,000? And get this, the man is seeking triple financial damages and has sued for $87,000. Has this man heard of the internet?

Right, there's just porn everywhere, buddy. Even when you're not looking for it it finds you you don't have to have 12 boxes of it you do not i'm sure there's plenty of big bad grannies out there for you bud oh my god and then i've got one more please go ahead this one's not that funny okay um so it goes back to the case that you covered the gypsy and dd blanchard case yes and the show that's on hulu now which is so good yes so i've still not watched it brandy i wanted them to all come out so i can watch it one time um i think you're spending too much time david character certainly not um so the gypsy is actually considering suing hulu over the show they did not have her permission they did not buy her rights oh yeah They made the show without purchasing any rights or anything to her story.

Do they have to purchase the rights? I don't know. That's where the question comes in. It's all public. It's all public record. I was going to say, it's all out there. It's all public record. So, yeah.

I don't know. I don't know that she has any legal ground. Yeah. I can understand being very upset about oh yeah 100% yeah

yeah so I thought that was really interesting because I think I would have assumed that she would have been involved in some way but no they didn't

she was involved in no way with the production of the show wow yeah I thought so too I assumed

because it's very detailed yeah and obviously they do say some stuff is fictionalized but i mean from what i've seen a lot of it is pretty spot on exactly i would have assumed that she was very involved in the development of it not at all they didn't she was involved in no way wow yeah i don't think she has a case i don't either yeah yeah well kristen i think we're gonna have to wrap this up i don't think she has a case. I don't either. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Kristen, I think we're going to have to wrap this up. I don't think my blistered tonsils can take much more. It's 1115. Are you dying right now?

My tonsils are not having a great time. I'm sorry. It's okay. I do feel bad for you. No, I'm happy to be here. Well, but you're sick. No. Just my tonsils are.

Oh, just this isolated part of my body. Well, I did call you hot today, so maybe that made up for... It did. It really did. Thank you. You finally heard it this time. Thank you for telling me I'm hot, Kristen. Yeah, about time.

I appreciate it. Mm-hmm. you finally heard it this time thank you for telling me i'm hot kristin about time i appreciate it you are also super hot wow too little too late that's never been a question too late everybody thinks you're super hot this is not true but i appreciate it very much all right um hey you know what guys we're still working on our uh our goal for ratings and reviews on itunes kristin thinks we're working towards 250 i personally am working to 2000 so please get out there and help us we're currently i think at like 227 so good luck Brandi we're 10% of the way to my goal classic stretch goal good job please get on there leave us a rating leave us a review and while you're at it find us on social media we're on Facebook we're on just live journal yes yes live journal for sure we're on um instagram we're on twitter we're on reddit we're on youtube find us all of those places call us on our landline yes yes uh

what's the how do you block your star 67 so how you block your number yeah star 69 is how you would find out who called yeah, star 67 before you call us if you don't want us to stalk your whole life. Yeah, and then, you know, join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up

in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info

from the Associated Press, Universal Services, the Los Angeles Times, Atlas Obscura, and the Daily News. And I got my info from an amazing article by Mark Gribben, crimemagazine.com, and good old Wikipedia.

For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.