Let's Go To Court! - 70: Dr. Kevorkian & IHOP

Episode Date: May 22, 2019

Dr. Jack Kevorkian is a polarizing figure. Some call him a murderer. They think he earned the nickname “Dr. Death.” But to others, Dr. Kevorkian was a compassionate man who performed a necessary service. Over his lifetime, Kevorkian assisted in the suicides of more than 100 terminally ill patients. He was a champion of the right to die movement. But Kevorkian’s detractors were loud and powerful, and took him to court several times. Next, put that syrup away. Brandi’s talking about the other IHOP — the International House of Prayer. In the winter of 2012, a young nurse named Bethany Deaton was discovered dead in her car. Police discovered a suicide note, along with a few bottles of pills. But did Bethany really take her own life? She had so much to live for. She’d just gotten married, she was at the start of a promising career, and she was part of IHOP’s tight-knit church. In fact, she and her charismatic husband, Tyler, were part of an even more tight-knit religious group, known as “the community.” Days after Bethany’s body was discovered, Micah Moore came forward. He said that he’d killed Bethany — under the instruction of her husband, Tyler. But as Micah’s trial grew closer, he recounted those statements. And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “The Trials of Dr. Jack Kevorkian,” famous-trials.com “Jack Kevorkian,” wikipedia “He breaks his own rules,” by Kirk Cheyfitz for the Detroit Free Press “An end to pain,” by Julia Prodis for the Associated Press “Kevorkian proves a lively witness,” by David Zeman and Janet Wilson for the Detroit Free Press “Two faces of Kevorkian painted,” by David Zeman and Janet Wilson for the Detroit Free Press “‘There is no law’, Kevorkian shouts,” by Jeff Martin for the Detroit Free Press| “Kevorkian: Intent was not to murder,” by Justin Hyde for the Associated Press In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “Love and Death in the House of Prayer” by Jeff Tietz, Rolling Stone “Fall From Grace” episode 48 Hours “The Bizarre Christian Sex Cult Death of Bethany Leidlein Deaton” by John Nova Lomax, The Houston Press “Bethany Deaton Suicide Now Considered A Murder; Police Arrest Micah Moore” by David Lohr, The Huffington Post “Prosecutor drops murder charge against Micah Moore in the death of Bethany Deaton”by Donald Bradley, The Kansas City Star    

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts! I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court! On this episode, I'll talk about Dr. Kevorkian. And I'll be talking about IHOP. What?

What horrible thing has taken place in an IHOP, I ask you? Wouldn't you like to know? I guess I'll find out. That's right. Stay tuned. Our assault on restaurants continues. Or does it? What, it's just a bunch of compliments about IHOP?

Okay, okay. I gotcha. I'm going first this week. You are because, do you know why? Because it's an even number. Good job, Kristen. Thank you. It only took me 70 episodes to get it down.

First of all, thank you to Ian, who reached out to us via email with his case suggestion. He was like the sweetest. He emailed in a case suggestion. I replied to it, said thanks, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then he was like, wow, I didn't expect you to reply. And then he was like, I hope I'm not annoying you, but have you thought about doing Dr. Kvorky? And I was like, first of all, I've got all the time in the world. Of course I'm replying to the email.

Well, so on that note, somebody messaged us on Facebook and I responded to it. And then they responded back and they were like, is this Kristen or or Brandy or is this like a webmaster who answers and I was like oh no this is Brandy we don't have anyone under our employ it's all us if you see grunt work being done it's one of us correct yeah um so yeah it was just funny because i was like yeah no i i'm i'm for sure responding to your email i'm happy to get it and in no way is this annoying i love it when people suggest messages all of that and it is us personally responding to you i will say this one this is a good one yeah and i'm so glad he suggested it because it's one that I feel like everyone thinks they kind of know,

but you have no idea. Ooh. You think you know, but you have no idea. Diary on MTV. Yeah. Everyone over 30 got that. Okay, so,

once again, a big shout out to FamousTrials.com. We love that website. And Douglas Olinder, who's the professor who runs that site, I think his Kevorkian article is fairly new because I don't remember seeing it before. I don't remember seeing it on there. Here we go.

Also, just so you know, I cried three times while I was researching this. Kristen texted me yesterday and was like, I've already cried about my case twice. And I was like, oh great, can't wait to hear it. It's only one part that makes me cry though. So it's like, once we get past that part, smooth sailing. Jack Kevorkian was born in Pontiac, Michigan in 1928. He was the middle child and he was very bright. In 1952, he graduated from the University of Michigan Medical School. Fairly quickly,

he made a name for himself and not necessarily in a good way. In the late 50s, he got to thinking about people on death row. The way he he saw it if they were already on death row why not give them the option to donate their organs to sick people why not give them the option to volunteer their bodies for medical experimentation why not let them die via anesthesia rather than like one of the other typical ways that they kill people on death row. And if the prisoners agreed to all that, then why not? Yeah. Prison officials did not like the idea.

I'm sure they did not. And neither did the other doctors that Jack worked with. It was kind of a wacky, out there proposal. Eventually, he left his position at the University of Michigan for another job. He didn't want to give up on his controversial ideas, though, so he just took them elsewhere. Later, he had an idea that involved taking blood from corpses and transferring it into the bodies of people in need. You're making the grossest face right now. Again, people were not interested. I'm not interested in that either. See, I have a different,

I know you're making that face. It's dead blood. But if it works, and, you know, I don't know if it does work. I mean, yeah, this is all gross. I think that's how they make zombies. Okay, just raise your hand if you're in favor of the zombie apocalypse. I'm just saying, I've seen, what is it?

I Am Legend. Uh-huh. Yeah. They thought they cured cancer. Turned out they created vampire zombies. See, I don't think, I think that if people need this, and if it's safe to do it that way. I mean, I know it seems, I know it weirds us out yes you know what this whole case is about things that weird people out yes so here we go all right i'll have my uncomfortable face on this whole time

but again people were not interested is that a peony it is my favorite flower are they really yeah um my mom brought that over it's so pretty uh they smell so good um the reason i ask is because they look a lot like english roses and when they're open you can't really tell the difference between them in case somebody was like wow it's your fucking favorite flower and you didn't just recognize it i thought you were just showing off your flower knowledge. No. Actually, Brandy, that's called a daisy. And it is beautiful. So now it's the 80s. Jack is still thinking outside the box. And now he's thinking about euthanasia. Young people in China? Oh, boy. Is it wrong to help kill someone who is terminally ill? Is it wrong to help someone die painlessly if that's what they truly want to do?

Jack decided it wasn't wrong to help someone commit suicide. In fact, he decided that if it was done responsibly and humanely and after a lot of discussion, then maybe he could be the one to do it. So he invented something called the Thanatron. You can find pictures of it online. It's kind of weird looking. It had these three bottles and an IV line and like this little motor. Yeah, Google Jack Kevorkian Thanatron. And good luck spelling Kevorkian. Got it. Oh, yeah.

Mm-hmm. So here's how it worked. Jack would hook a patient up to the IV. He'd get the saline drip going. Then the patient would flip a switch for secondol, which would essentially put them into a coma. After that, second all ran out. Then potassium chloride would flow in, stop the heart. So this 60-year-old doctor had developed a contraption that caused a painless death.

And now he wanted to get the word out. So he went to some local newspapers. now he wanted to get the word out. So he went to some local newspapers and he wanted to buy an ad. Mm-hmm. But the newspapers were like, Yeah, you can't advertise that here.

What? They were like, you can't advertise a death contraption. No. Thank you very much. But we're fascinated by you, fascinated by this concept, so they wanted to interview him instead

of course so that's how word got out in 1989 newsweek did a story about him the reaction to jack's device and his plan was very mixed a lot of people found it horrifying. They found it wrong. Do you want to talk about how you feel about it? Oh, we're going to. Oh, okay. Yeah, like in two seconds. Okay.

When I start crying. Okay. But other people thought it made sense. And some people even thought that assisted suicide sounded pretty attractive. One of those people was Janet Atkins. Janet was 54. She was an absolute rock star. She loved to travel, loved to hike. She lived in Portland, Oregon, and had a great family. But she also had early onset Alzheimer's disease. Her doctor said that she could live for a very long time, but that wasn't what she wanted to do

she didn't want to live for years and years and years as her mind and her memories slipped away she wanted to die on her own terms before it was too late for her to make a clear decision so we're gonna stop first of all how do you feel about this i'm totally for it i am too yep um the reason i'm for it is because my grandpa died two years ago from alzheimer's and my grandmother currently has alzheimer's my aunt died two years ago from alzheimer's like yeah it's a terrible horrible disease you completely lose yourself. You lose your family. If you want to choose not to go through that, I think you should get to fucking choose that.

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So there were many things that were very, very hard about seeing him go through that. But one of the hardest was knowing that he would, if he had had any idea what was happening, he would have hated it. Yep. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. Janet and her husband, Ron, flew out to Michigan to meet with Jack. In total, they met four times. Jack didn't charge for what he did. He didn't want anyone to think that he was in any way motivated by money for this. In his meetings with Janet and Ron, they discussed Janet's condition at length. He recorded three of their interviews and had Janet and Ron fill out a lengthy questionnaire. The whole time, Janet was certain.

She wanted to die. She wanted his help. So for the first time ever, Jack put his invention to use. He couldn't find a funeral home or hotel or anywhere that would willingly let a woman come in and commit suicide. So Janet agreed to die in Jack's 1968 Volkswagen van. Wow. It's kind of a weird deal. You know, it's like one of those vans that like has the curtains up and a cot in the back.

She said goodbye to her husband and Jack and his sister and Janet drove off in the van to a campground. Janet's last word was, hurry. Jack responded, safe journey. Okay, pausing again. What do you think people's argument is against this? I honestly, I don't know. Like, you know how I feel about animals. Yes, I do.

We do this for animals. Yeah. Why can't we do this for humans? My dad has said the exact same thing. Yeah. I don't understand it. Yeah. I really don't.

We make the decision for animals that they are in too much pain to continue living and we give them peaceful deaths yeah what is the damn difference if a human decides they want to do that for themselves i don't know 100 do not understand the argument against it what was amazing to me about this is i feel so strongly about it but then there was a poll that shows that people are pretty like split down the middle and i'm amazed by that yeah and part of me wonders are the people on the other side of this have they not had a family member go through or i would assume that the people must have strong religious beliefs. That it's playing God to some degree.

Man, I would argue with that all day long. Because I think there could be an argument that any medical intervention is playing God. Yeah. You're having a heart attack. Oh, don't take him to the hospital. But on the surface, to me, I would believe that's the argument. Yeah, you're probably right. Is that the people who are against it have very strong religious beliefs. Yeah.

Which, you know, if that's how they feel, then I guess, to me, it goes back to the thing of, if you don't like gay marriage, don't have one. Yeah. To me, it's like, if you don't like assisted suicide, don't have one. Don't have one. Yes me it's like if you don't like assisted suicide don't don't have one don't have yes don't do it but i mean i thought personally a lot just because with my grandpa there's a chance that he has alzheimer's and it was hereditary yeah but there's also a chance that what happened to him stemmed from a really bad fall that he took when he was in his 20s. Yeah. And so I've thought about that.

Like, if it's hereditary, there's a chance I could get it. Yeah. Would I have the strength? I mean, I think that's so hard. Would I have the strength to say, right now, while I'm of sound mind, and I'm not necessarily ready to go, can I go? Yeah. Yeah, I go? Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. Do you think you would ever do it? Gosh, I just don't know. Yeah. But I would never tell someone else they can't make that decision. Yeah, of course. Of course.

Yeah. See, I really feel like I would do it. You do. Only because when my grandpa was hospitalized, I mean, we went up there quite a bit. And, oh, my God, like some of the worst moments of my life are tied to that absolutely and you know i think about like fuck like if my niece were to see me like yeah absolutely

it's and to experience that because like i think people think oh your memory gets wonky oh you can't remember people no no it's so much worse than that it's paranoia it's thinking people are out to get you it's yes tons of horrible horrible things yeah and it's yeah and it's it's worse than that even there's a point where there's a person's personality is oh yeah completely lost they're unrecognizable to you and they are unrecognizable to themselves yeah the idea of me like losing myself like that is like my biggest fear in the world. Yeah. Alzheimer's is, it runs very heavily in my family and it is fucking terrifying.

I think I could do it if I was. Now I'm afraid that you're going to get it. Damn it, Brandi. We're going to have to Thelma and Louise this shit if it's not legal by now. Probably forget where we're going. I know. Sorry, that's not funny.

No, no. It's, yeah. No, no. It's, yeah. No, I think I could do it. Yeah. I think I would choose to do it over the alternative. Yeah. Well. Let's talk about more exciting stuff.

Let's continue on our comedy podcast here. I'm glad we talked about this because a lot of people don't know that alzheimer's is bad common misconception out there people think it's great it's not so once she died jack called the police They immediately arrested him and charged him with murder. But he got out pretty quickly. Michigan didn't have a law against assisting with a suicide. So Jack was released. In Portland, Janet's husband, Ron, read a statement that Janet wrote before she died.

It read, I have Alzheimer's disease and I do not want to let it progress any further. I do not want to put my family or myself through the agony of this terrible disease. So once again, it's bad. Yes. This story made national headlines. And again, people were very divided on the issue. People started calling Jack Dr. Death. He helped two more people commit suicide.

But in 1991, the Michigan Board of Medicine voted unanimously to suspend his medical license. What he was doing was unacceptable. Brandy, don't shake your head. It was unacceptable. It's infuriating to me. Why? Because he's helping people yeah i truly believe he's helping people and okay so i don't know if you'll get into this i watched there was a documentary years ago about a man um that he helped who had als oh okay like, my understanding of this is that he did this with everyone,

like, where he, you know, had recorded statements that they had made. Like, nobody, he wasn't doing this against anyone's will. So, okay, I was kind of saving this for later. Well, sorry. No, no, no, no, no. I think we can do it now. Years later, the Detroit Free Press well sorry no no no i think we can we can do it now okay years later the detroit detroit the detroit free press did kind of an investigation and they said he didn't always follow his own

methods okay to the t which we'll discuss that more in depth later but i from what i read and from what i've seen it seems seems like he was very careful. I mean, he videotaped everything. He had people fill out questionnaires. It seemed to me that he was going as by the book as you can go when there is no book. When there is no book, yes. When you're the one running the show. Yeah.

Blazing the trail. Cutting the path. Okay. Blazing the trail. Cutting the path. Okay. But that didn't stop him. Without a license, he couldn't get the drugs he needed for the Thanatron, so he took a new route. He made a new invention called the Mersatron. Here's how this one worked. The patient would wear a mask over their nose and mouth, and the mask would be hooked up to carbon monoxide.

The patient would inhale, and eventually they'd die. So this one took, obviously, more time, but still. Painless. Yeah. Yeah, peaceful. There's a weird picture of him holding the tank and Barbara Walters with the mask on. Yeah, which is like, ooh. It didn't matter that Jack didn't have a medical license.

He continued to assist people in dying. But a lot of people were strongly opposed to what Jack was doing, and one of those people was the governor of Michigan. In 1992, the governor signed a law that made it illegal to assist in a suicide. But not that long after the law was signed, Jack met a man named Thomas Hyde. Thomas was 30 and he had Lou Gehrig's disease, ALS. This is the guy I think.

You think that he helped multiple people with ALS, but it might be this guy. He was young. I remember that specifically. Yeah. That was a big thing is that He was young. I remember that specifically. Yeah. That was a big thing is that he was young. God, ALS. Ugh.

Can we talk about, in case you guys don't know, ALS is also very bad. We're just helping you guys out. Here is a list of things that are bad. Alzheimer's, bad. ALS, bad. Cancer, bad. Now we're all feeling smarter, I think. So Thomas couldn't walk.

He could barely swallow. His speech was slurred. ALS is one of those diseases that as it progresses, well, it's kind of like Alzheimer's in that it just gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. And there's not a lot that can be done for you. No. Thomas hated what the disease had done to his body he'd always been so active but now he could barely move for a while he attended an als support group but he stopped going because he'd be in this room with all these people some of them much worse off than he was and he was depressing it's like

looking at your future. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it was funny to read that and go, Oh yeah, shit. That would be awful.

I'd be like the worst kind of support. Yes. Like this is my future. Yeah. No, thank you. Yeah. So he went to Jack.

He wanted help ending his life. And in August of 1993, Jack agreed with his help. Thomas died. But thanks to the new law, what Jack had done was now illegal. So Jack was charged with murder. Jack hired a defense attorney named Jeffrey Figer. And man, Jeffrey was good.

The law made it illegal to knowingly provide the physical means or participate in the act of suicide. But it gave an exception for cases where the intent is to relieve pain. Ooh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Your reaction, same as Jeffrey's. Uh-huh.

Jeffrey's like, I've got my loophole. Yeah. So Jeffrey wanted the jury to see exactly how much pain thomas had been in in his opening statement he said you will decide how much suffering all of us must endure before we go into that good night some of us not so gently yeah powerful right super powerful Yeah. Powerful, right? Super powerful. How much pain should that person go through? Yeah. That's incredible to make that decision. Yeah. That anyone would have the right to make that decision for someone else. Right. Over the course of the five-day trial, Jeffrey argued that Jack was all about relieving pain. That's all he wanted to do. And if someone died as a result of him relieving pain,

that was just the natural consequence. It was not the goal. But Assistant Prosecutor Timothy Kenney argued that, no, that loophole does not apply here. He said that loophole was for doctors who wanted to prescribe experimental medication to terminally ill patients. Oh, does it say that in the law?

How dare you, Brandy? Do not ask this prosecutor follow-up questions. Here's something. Now, here's a point of his that I think is actually pretty good. He said, carbon monoxide is a poison. It's not a medication. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Don't. Oh, you're right. No, I... Another thing that's bad. Carbon monoxide. You should have a carbon monoxide detector in your home um and you

should check them every time oh okay so we're told to check them here every time the tornado sirens go off oh yeah what do you tell people in other parts of the country that don't have tornado siren tests you know what that would have been um i want to say hilarious but it wouldn't be hilarious if you just spouted that off and people were like, all right, I guess I'll never have to check that carbon dioxide detector. But for us, that's like twice a year, right? In the springtime, they do monthly tests, actually, of the system. Really? Yeah.

The first Wednesday of every month. Oh, that's right. I remember that now. Interesting. All right. Check them, you. Yeah. Huh. Huh. Interesting. All right. Check them, you know, frequently. The batteries are important. Mm-hmm.

At one point, Jeffrey showed the jury a video of Thomas. In it, he tried to say, but again, it was hard for him to speak, I want to end this. I want to die. Thomas's brother, Sean, also took the stand. He read the jury a letter that Thomas had written to Jack. It said, the degradation has gone far enough. I frighten my daughter and I see fear and pity in my son's eyes. I have made my peace. Can you please help me? Oh my gosh.

Yeah. Ugh. That's what I'm saying. I just, I don't understand how you can hear that, have just the most basic understanding of ALS and not understand where that man was coming from. Jack took the stand and spoke passionately about how he just wanted to end Thomas' suffering. The prosecution tried to paint Jack as a zealot

who'd been rejected by the medical community. But it didn't really work. I was going to say. He was really charming on the stand. At some points, the jury laughed with him. I didn't include this quote, but someone who was watching it all was like, they're not going to convict someone if they're laughing with him, which I think is probably true. That's probably true.

Also, he's kind of an interesting guy. He never married, never had kids. He would buy his clothes at Goodwill. And he was just kind of this, I mean, obviously he courted publicity. Yeah. But he wasn't some fancy pants guy, you know? Yeah. He explained that his philosophy, which he attributed to Hippocrates, was that doctors should continue life until life

isn't worth living. But when he wasn't on the stand, Jack wasn't nearly so passionate. He passed the time quietly studying lists of Japanese verbs. Okay. Great. I don't know what that's about. i think you know i think he was so certain that what he was doing was right yeah and he was so annoyed because clearly this law had been written to catch yeah and so i think that was him just kind of thumbing his nose at the whole process there was also some debate about exactly where Thomas died

because his place of death would ultimately determine which court had jurisdiction. But that stuff's boring. So I'm mentioning it now to say, hello, I mentioned it. And then we're just like moving right the fuck along. Okay. In closing arguments, the prosecution told the jury it didn't matter whether they liked this

particular law it didn't matter where whether they thought the law should be changed the question was did he break the law yeah and if he did they needed to find him guilty how do you feel about that i mean that's the best argument uh yeah when you feel like you're losing that's the best argument uh yeah when you feel like you're losing that's the only argument that's the only argument yeah i would say there have been horrible laws yeah in this country and many others and just because it's a law does not mean that if i'm a juror i'm gonna go along with it exactly i would totally agree oh black people and white people need separate water fountains yeah i'm not upholding that yeah you know exactly the defense argued that what jack had done was

compassionate he was practicing human decency you shouldn't go to jail for practicing human decency yeah the jury deliberated for nine hours and, he was acquitted. Afterward, one of the jurors said, I don't feel it's our obligation to choose for someone else how much pain and suffering they can go through. That's between them and their God. I totally agree. I totally agree. As you can probably imagine, this was a controversial verdict. And the of michigan was pissed that they lost but they didn't give up don't worry brandy okay they did not give up great jack continued excited to hear that jack continued to assist people through their suicides and eventually the state of michigan charged him again this time for assisting in a suicide of a woman who had ALS

and a doctor who had bone cancer. Jeffrey used a very similar strategy to the first trial. Once again, he showed the jury video of the two people that Jack had helped to die. In one tape, Jack asked the doctor, Ali Khalili, why not just commit suicide yourself and Ali said that he wanted it done by a professional basically his thought was I don't want this to get messed up in any way I want this to go smoothly I've come to a professional

yeah which to me makes total sense I think it makes total sense. Especially given that he was a doctor. Yeah, and I think changes the connotation of the act. What do you mean? It's a, yes, you're still taking your life. You're deciding to end your life. But you are, I don't know, it's different than I think you're dying with dignity yes 100 and you're making sure that there are professionals around you who know what to do it's not going to be a surprise to anyone nothing's going to go

wrong if something does go wrong you've got people there. In a controlled environment. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it makes total sense. Jack took the stand again, and he told the jury basically the same thing he told the other jury. He didn't want anyone to die. He wanted to end their suffering.

He was trying to do the humane thing. And by the way, he didn't profit from any of this. He wasn't a rich man. He was just trying to do what he felt was the right thing. The jury went into deliberation, and they acquitted him. So now Jack has won two trials. It seems pretty clear that once people have all the information, they tend to side with him. So Jack goes out into the world and continues his work.

He continues to assist people. But prosecutors would not give up. Oh my gosh. They charged him again. But this time, they took a new tactic. See, in 1994, the Michigan Supreme Court... Wow. I'm sorry.

Huge job. I'm so sorry. I had my little finger in the air. And you... Is something going on? You dreaming about something else? No! I'm so in this case.

This is such an interesting one. Yeah, I really... Even though it made me cry. Yeah. That's usually a good sign if it makes me absolutely so they had ruled that assisting honestly i'm i'm riled up because like yeah who the fuck are they to say that he's doing something wrong it makes me wish that we had someone right here at this table with us who disagreed. Yeah. Because I had kind of... Tell me your argument.

Yeah, I had kind of hoped that you would disagree. No, I'm sorry. Yeah. Because I feel like I've always been, even before the stuff with my grandpa, I've always kind of felt like, hey, you know, if you're suffering, I get it. But especially after all that. To me, I'm a huge proponent of not. I just don't think I have any right to tell anybody else what they can do with their life, like as far as who they marry, if they choose to have an abortion. Yeah. If they decide to have assisted suicide how does that

affect my life in any way how do i get a say in that i don't believe in that at all so i'm with you 100 except for i will tell people all day long whether you can put shredded cheese on nachos the answer is no you can't it's melted cheese only i think that might be an example of gatekeeping i'm sorry this is the hill that i will die on but no i feel the same way you do yeah it doesn't matter like if any if i'm going to choose any of those things for myself, it does not fucking matter. I hope I never have to. Exactly.

But I have no right to tell you what you can and can't decide for your own life. Yeah. Nor do I think the government should have any right. Well, sorry to tell you. I know. Alabama. What? Something great going on in Alabama?

Should we be worried at all? I can't talk about it, Kristen. I know. I know. I know. I know. I was thinking about making a dark comment about the Supreme Court. I'm concerned.

Yeah. Anyway, let's move on. Let's move on. This is not a political podcast. Well, it got there. So, in 1994, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that assisting in a suicide had always been a crime. Oh, okay. Yeah. Just, like, not technically on the books but everybody

it's like you know kind of frowned upon so we didn't think we needed to tell you you couldn't do that what what they said was that you know basically forget that other law uh-huh with its caveat about pain and suffering, because obviously that's not working for us when it comes to a jury. What they said was that assisted suicide had always been against the law through common law. So, you know, there are certain laws that it's like the legislature passed. Common law is like when it's kind of decided through courts and you know precedent blah blah we get it so now the court is claiming that this is common law it's very strict yeah and if jack

assisted in a suicide in any way then he needs to do prison time okay by this point jack had been through trial after trial he's getting older He's so sick of this bullshit. And this new ruling seems ridiculous and very targeted because the court was saying that this whole assisted suicide thing was a matter of common law. So what did Jack do? He showed up to court in traditional colonial garb. He wore one of those like white powdered wings. He had those pilgrim style buckle shoes and those little capri pants with the knee socks. Outside he posed in a makeshift, I mean, I call them stocks, but I looked them up online

and they call them pillory. Oh yeah, pillory. I mean, people can't see what we're doing but it's when you got your head you got your head in the hole and then your wrists go in the other holes and you're put out in the town square it's also a fetish you would find a way to bring that up wouldn't you i haven't in many episodes frankly the people demanded it so you know his point was obviously like he was being published, punished like it was olden times.

Yeah. But this trial was no laughing matter. The state had a better case now, thanks to this common law argument. And the prosecution had done a pretty good job of picking which individual suicides to go after. Because, you know, there were quite a few. which individual suicides to go after. Because, you know, there were quite a few. This time, they went after Jack for assisting in the suicides of Marjorie Wants and Sherry Miller.

Marjorie had MS, but doctors seemed to agree that she could have lived for many years. Which, again, you know. I'm being attacked by an eyelash. I was going to say! They're mutinying against me! Did some of them walk the plank into your icy blue eyes? Stop! You guys, if you haven't seen Brandy's eyes, they're quite mesmerizing.

Let's calm down. many a creepy man has complimented her on them and now her creepy friend is complimenting her so sherry was in the same boat she was in a lot of pain from some surgeries that had gone wrong but again i guess she could have continued living let's talk about quality of life absolutely i i am going to go back to this argument why do we do that in animals but it is ridiculous to think about it for humans i don't understand that yeah yeah um this part again made me think of my grandpa because his life expectancy after a certain point was pretty short. Yeah. But he kept on going. Mm-hmm. And the doctors would be like, his body is great.

It's like, well, that's just sad. Yeah. You know, I mean, there comes a point where it's like, as messed up as it sounds, you don't want their body to be in good condition because you want them out of the pain. Yeah. God. Anyway. So this was not as clear cut as the previous trials. But Jeffrey continued to argue that what Jack had done was humane and what his patients wanted.

He also argued that this common law shit was bullshit. Yeah. Jack took the stand again. And when assistant prosecutor Larry Bunting cross-examined him, things got very heated. Okay, so Jack had had enough. Enough, yeah. Jack screamed that his trial was worse than a Nazi court. When Larry tried to imply that what Jack had done was illegal, Jack screamed,

There is no law. This isn't a trial. Tell me I'm wrong wow and at this point the judge was like whoa cool it you need to cool it and jack said you can cite me for contempt your honor i don't care yeah he's like i'm fucking over it yes yeah because it's so pointed it's so clearly about him but the judge didn't do that. Instead, he ordered a recess and told Jack to talk to his attorneys. Jack came back a little more level-headed. The very next day.

Jack came back the very next day. And the cross-examination continued. But once again, the jury kind of liked him. Yeah. They listened intently to everything he said. Ultimately, the jury deliberated for a while. They argued. At the start, four of them wanted to convict Jack.

But eventually they came back with another acquittal. Afterwards, one of the jurors explained that the argument against common law had worked. She said she'd made her decision the week before they went into deliberation. She was outside raking leaves in her yard when it dawned on her. I didn't want someone to come along three years from now and say that raking leaves back then was illegal. You just didn't know it. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Right? Right!

Yeah. Between 1994 and 1997, Jack was brought to trial four times. Holy shit! Yeah. So he was acquitted the first three times and got a mistrial in his fourth. All the while, he continued to assist people in their suicides. You may also be interested in knowing that he had his hobbies. He loved jazz, and in 1997, he released a CD.

He played flute and organ on it. Entertainment Weekly called it weird, but good-natured. I would agree with that, Entertainment Weekly called it weird, but good natured. I would agree with that, Entertainment Weekly. I agree that it is weird. He also dabbled in oil painting. His stuff was, so I looked up some of his stuff because I was curious. It's good, but again, dark and weird. Yeah.

So look up the album cover for Acid Bath's album For He Is Raised. Once again, that's Acid Bath with the album For He Is Raised. And that's Jack's artwork on the cover. So it's like three bunnies. Jesus is being hatched from an egg. One of the bunnies is like the puppet master of Jesus. And frankly, that bunny has wings that look like golden graham cereal. Yes, all of this is accurate.

Anything to add um i don't know how i could describe it any better than that thank you that's why i'm here to describe album covers this podcast is taking a turn we're done with court stuff so jazz and oil painting aside, Jack's true mission in life was to make assisted suicide accepted and available to those who wanted it. What's up? I'm trying to decide

if this is a hat on this one bunny or if that's hair. Yeah, I couldn't decide, so I just didn't bother describing that one. Okay. To me,

it looks like, you know, the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. So it's that pot, but it's filled with golden graham cereal and raisins. Or could be a jalapeno popper. You know what? That could be a fat jalapeno popper. Don't make me hungry. So this became a problem because in the late 90s, people weren't really talking about assisted suicide anymore. It had been in the news with all his trials, but now it was not really so much something that people talked about. But then, in 1998, Jack met a man named Thomas Uke. At one time, Thomas had been a race car driver.

But then he was diagnosed with ALS. Within two years of his diagnosis, he was almost completely paralyzed. His lung capacity was diminished. He had a feeding tube. He was in tremendous pain he told his brother it felt like his whole body was plugged into an electric socket oh my gosh thomas asked his family to get him in contact with jack and they did once again jack did his thing he videotaped the interview explained the procedure, and gave Thomas a consent form, which he signed. He asked Thomas, how long can you wait for this procedure? And Thomas said he could wait about a week. Jack said, sure. He was like, let's not hurry this. But the next day,

Thomas called Jack. He couldn't wait a week. He wanted to end his life right now. Jack acquiesced. He went back over and he injected second all into Thomas's hand. So unlike in the previous procedures where people flipped a switch or did something to initiate their own death, this was not assisted suicide. This was euthanasia. And remember, Jack wanted to restart the dialogue on dying. So in November of 1998, he reached out to 60 Minutes. He sent the videos of Thomas's interview and his subsequent death to CBS. 60 Minutes agreed to do a segment on Jack.

And in the interview, they pressed him on whether what he did was murder. And Jack basically said, I don't think so. But it doesn't matter to me what you call it. What I did was better than assisted suicide because there was better control. The interviewer at one point implied that this was in a way a publicity stunt. And Jack said that it kind of was. He wanted to be prosecuted. He said, the issue has got to be raised to the level where it can finally be decided.

He wanted a decision once and for all on whether what he was doing was truly illegal. Jack got his wish. Three days after 60 Minutes aired aired their segment he was charged with first degree murder and aiding and abetting a suicide i did not watch this 60 minutes segment i don't know if it's even available online but my understanding is that he was pretty brazen

and it didn't it didn't necessarily cast him in a great light. Once again, Jack's longtime defense attorney, Jeffrey Figer, was by his side. Jeffrey had gone through four trials with Jack. He took a look at what was ahead of them and said, hey, this 60-minute special is not going to help our case. I'm going to try to get it excluded from evidence. But Jack didn't agree with him. He wanted it. He liked the 60 minutes episode.

He didn't care if it damaged his case. He wanted to show the jury exactly what he'd done. Just put it all out into the open. But Jeffrey was like, you don't understand. We need to be more strategic than this. As your lawyer, I cannot allow you to self-destruct. So Jack said, consider yourself fired.

Holy shit. Yeah. After all their years together, Jack got a new legal legal team he talked to them about the possibility of getting convicted and taking his case all the way to the supreme court so this to me is where jack's ego gets a little out of control and he gets reckless basically he saw himself as a hero he was the champion of this movement and he told his lawyers that he might win the nobel prize wow his new defense attorney made a very questionable judgment call before they went to trial. What's up? Well, I mean, that just seems like narcissism.

Yeah. I think there's a chance he was pretty narcissistic. And not to say that narcissism is always a bad thing. No, no, no, no. But I think to do this and to decide I am going to be the face

of this movement, I'm going to change things. You would have to be. I think you have to be. You would have to be. Yeah. So Jack had been charged with first degree murder and also with aiding and abetting a suicide. And his lawyer, for some reason, made a motion to dismiss the assisted suicide charge. Well, that's stupid.

The judge thought so, too. Yeah. Judge Jessica Cooper was like, Are you sure? She explained that without the assisted suicide charge, all the evidence about Thomas' pain and suffering would be completely irrelevant. In fact, it would be inadmissible. You couldn't talk about it.

But the defense lawyer pressed on. What? He was like, yeah, I know what I'm doing. I don't think you do. Here was his strategy. He figured that if a jury had to choose between a murder conviction and an acquittal, they'd for sure go for an acquittal not if they don't get to see all of that stuff i agree see i my initial thought was completely different than that what my initial thought was okay if the choice is between first degree murder

and assisted suicide like they're not going to be able to find him guilty of both of those they contradict each other in my mind and so of course you would lean towards acquittal but be much better to be found guilty of assisting a suicide than first-degree murder. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the defense made— I don't think this is going to go well.

Well, here we go. So the defense made that motion. The judge warned against it. And the prosecution was like, oh, hey, you want to dismiss the assisted suicide charge? Sure. I'm happy to oblige. I'm always down for this. So that charge went away.

By the time the trial came along, Jack had gotten rid of his new lawyer. And his replacement was himself. Okay. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. He's not a lawyer. What? He's got a lawyer. He's got a lot of experience. He's been on trial a lot. Uh-huh yeah he's not a lawyer he has been he's he's got a lot of experience he's been on trial a lot uh-huh okay once again judge jessica cooper was like dude bad call bad call she said do you

realize you could spend the rest of your life in prison right and jack said there's not much left of it your honor he told the court that he had been planning to be his own lawyer for a while he wasn't dissatisfied with his old legal counsel he just felt that he could do a better job okay narcissist for sure um so i think there's definitely narcissism i think there's also something else here at play we'll get into it a little later the trial lasted two days and it was a shit show yeah here was jack's argument you ready euthanasia should be legal that's his whole argument he told the jury that he was just like an executioner oh no what why does that why would he say that here was his argument he was just like an executioner you know you don't hold the executioner personally responsible

for the act of executing you know that's like that's the state that's the legal system like there's probably a list of words you should not use when you're on trial for first degree murder and execute is probably one of them so the the thing that stood out to me about this was you know i always do my newspapers.com thing, pulling up old stuff from previous trials. And in one of his previous trials, when he was on the stand, he made this analogy. Is this an analogy? An analogy, yeah. He made this analogy on the stand.

He said, I'm just like an executioner and you don't hold the executioner personally responsible. Or like another argument would be like a soldier at war yeah and his attorney who again was an actual attorney yeah flipped out yeah and later when the media asked him questions he yelled at reporters and got in their faces and like basically flipped out like don't you dare print that no he is not an executioner he is you know he's doing the right moral thing yeah but now with that legal counsel that good legal counsel gone jack is just using his own i mean, he learned nothing from that. Yeah. Yeah. He was right. Holy shit. Jack didn't call any witnesses. Of course he didn't.

But not for lack of trying. Okay. He actually had people he wanted to call to the stand, but the judge was like, no, their testimony isn't relevant. So, like, again, not a lawyer. Doesn't know that, oh, I can't call just whoever I want. So Jack was in a tough position. But what do you expect?

He's not a lawyer. Meanwhile, the prosecution, which was made up of actual attorneys, did a pretty good job. Yeah, I'm sure they did. They played the 60 Minutes tape, and Assistant Prosecutor John Skrzynski said, this is not an assisted suicide case. Tom Uke did not kill himself with Jack Kevorkian's help. Jack Kevorkian killed Tom Uke by injecting him with drugs. That's a pretty good argument.

On the second day of trial, the judge asked him again, are you sure you want to keep representing yourself? Are you positive? And Jack said yes. He told the judge, I don't want you to agonize. It won't offend me if you think I'm making a mistake or that I don't know what I'm doing. This is my choice. Don't agonize. She said, I just want you to understand that if you're convicted, you could go away for the rest of your life.

And he said, I go to jail. I go to jail. Yes, I go to jail. He told her, if I'm convicted, then I'll get a shot at the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court justices have said they'd like to weigh in on a case like this, and I want to give it to them. They might not take the case. It might be a long shot. But if I do a hunger strike, then maybe it'll speed the process up. Holy shit. So this is what I was talking about earlier i do think his ego played a huge role in

this but i also think he was trying to throw the trial i think he was trying to get convicted yeah then he said because you know again that's a huge gamble to be like i'll lose and then go to the Supreme Court. He goes, but if not, who cares? In 15, 20 years, they'll say, well, he was right. He's dead now, but he was right. I've got to do what I know is right. I've got to do what I know now is right. And I can't let the law, which is immoral, block me. If Margaret Sanger did that, if Susan B. Anthony did that, look at

Martin. Look at all these people. I'm not saying I'm like them, but they certainly, I'm certainly going to act like them. I mean, I know this is not a crime. So do you. Everybody with sense does. Your religion may say it's a sin, but that doesn't make it a crime. All these people broke the law and went to jail. I am willing to do the same. Wow. Yeah. Holy cow. Isn't that so powerful?

I've got goosebumps. The jury deliberated, and they found him guilty of second-degree homicide. Judge Cooper sentenced him to 10 to 25 years in prison. At the sentencing, she told him, you had the audacity to go on national television, show the world what you did, and dare the legal system to stop you. Well, sir, consider yourself stopped. Wow. Jack assisted in the deaths of 130 people between 1990 and 1998.

They were all terminally ill, and they all took the final action that ultimately led to their death. But in 1997, the Detroit Free Press did an investigation into Jack and found that what he said he did and what actually happened were two very different things. Okay, so I'm going to pull up the article now. Wikipedia says that 60% of his patients weren't terminally ill. What? Yeah, which I was like, oh, my God. And so, you know, I went and tried to find this report.

I didn't find it in this report. You know, maybe this was a multiple part series and i missed that but to me like the most damning evidence i did not see yeah so i'm just throwing it out there so i'm just gonna read to you from like a little chart they've got so they've got on one side what kevorkian says and what the free press found so what he says he says every assisted suicide candidate undergoes extensive counseling with Kevorkian. And what they found is that counseling is often limited to phone calls and

brief meetings that include family members and friends. Is that a problem? I mean, obviously you don't want things to be too brief, but I just, I guess I don't necessarily consider this the bomb. Anyway, let me, I'm going to keep going. Two, every candidate for assisted suicide must be examined by a psychiatrist.

What they found. There was no psychiatric exam in at least 19 Kevorkian assisted suicides, including several in which friends or family reported that the patient was despondent over matters other than health. Three, patients who complain of chronic pain should be examined by a doctor who specializes in pain control. This is what they found. In at least 17 assisted suicides in which people complained of chronic pain, Kevorkian did not refer the patient to a pain specialist. Four, before agreeing to assist a suicide, Kevorkian makes a detailed review of each patient's medical records. What they found, Kevorkian's access to such records varied widely. In some instances, he received only a brief summary

of the attending physician's prognosis. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Is this too boring? No's prognosis. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Is this too boring? I've got two more. Okay. Those who qualify for Kevorkian's help suffer from afflictions that are incurable or cannot be treated without intolerable side effects.

Here's what they found. Autopsies of at least three Kevorkian suicides revealed no anatomical evidence of disease. Final one. Death should not take place sooner than 24 hours after a patient has made a final request. What they found. At least 19 patients died less than 24 hours after meeting Kevorkian for the first time.

Wow. So... That one's alarming yeah there i mean there are a few of these in here that are alarming yeah because like one of the the idea that maybe someone is just depressed and he's helping them with suicide well that's a completely different yeah well i i believe i saw somewhere but i did not write it down that that the lawyer, Jeffrey, responded to some of these saying like the laws and all this stuff and all these limitations on him have made it impossible to follow his own guidelines. So I guess that's a bit of a concession there. Oh, yeah. say that this article is incorrect because it might very well be correct but i also think if there were all these instances of really iffy suicides why didn't they prosecute him for those right exactly yeah so that's the only thing that keeps bothering me is if he was so lax if he

yeah if he was so careless yeah just just pick one of those many cases. But somehow they went to trial now five times and they couldn't do that? Yeah. That doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't make sense. You're right. Diane Coleman, founder of Not Dead Yet, she's a disability rights advocate she said it's the ultimate form of discrimination to offer people with disabilities help to die without having offered real options to live that's not

what he was marketing yeah that's not what he was selling yeah i don't agree with that statement. Yeah, I guess I'd like to hear more, but my initial thought is, like, you can't do everything for everybody. Yeah. And if this is the option somebody wants to take, again, who are we? Yeah, why do we get a fucking opinion? Yeah. In a 2005 prison interview, Jack said that if he were released, he wouldn't help people die anymore. Instead, he'd just campaign to change the laws around assisted suicide and euthanasia. Two years later, in 2007, he was paroled for good behavior on the condition that he not assist in a suicide or

euthanasia he was also barred from promoting assisted suicide once he got out he ran for congress but lost big time jack died in 2011 he was 82 his tomes tomes dune oh no his tombstone reads he sacrificed himself for everyone's rights after jack died judge thomas jackson who presided over the first trial said he was sad to hear about jack's death he also said that jack had been brought to trial under a badly written law that was specifically written to catch him. And he was basically like, I tried to give him the most fair trial I could. Old Jeffrey, long-term friend, also spoke out, and he said, Dr. Jack Kevorkian didn't seek out history, but he made history.

To this day, assisted suicide and euthanasia is a very controversial issue, and it's still illegal in most u.s states well i think euthanasia is illegal everywhere in the u.s but anyway that's the story of dr jack kvorkian uh i had i had no idea that there were so many legal battles in that and in like the famous trials.com stuff he kind of started going through the trials quickly. And I was like, whoa, hang on, buddy. And then I realized, oh, there are five of these. Okay, gotcha.

There's a bench. That was so interesting. I'm so glad. I was worried that it would be like just depressing as hell. No, super, super interesting. Depressing, but also super, super interesting. Well, you know, we got to teach people that Alzheimer's is bad. So that's important.

Yes. Do you need a pee break? I don't. Oh, pacing yourself on the beverages today. I really am. I'm totally in control of my body. Do you like pancakes? Yeah, I like pancakes.

Do you like omelets? Of course I like omelets. Do you like omelets? Of course I like omelets. Do you like bacon? What do I look like? These are all things IHOP is known for, and I'm going to talk about none of them. Okay. Because I'm not talking about IHOP, the restaurant. Oh, you are talking about the church!

Yes! Oh, you had me. You totally had me tricked. I was like, what? It went down in an IHOP. Yes. We are going to be talking about the International House of Prayer. Yes.

This is a local case, in case you guys couldn't figure that out. It is. It's local, though the church has branches all over the United States. It is headquartered in Grandview, Missouri. And many people believe it's a cult. And today I'm going to talk about a case that might make you lean one way or the other on that belief. Great.

So let me tell you how I was inspired to cover this case. How did I inspire you? You did not inspire me. I drove by this church this weekend that is like gated and has like this huge fence around it and like and i was like what the fuck is the deal with that church and so i was like i have to google it and so i googled it and the third result for that church which i'm not going to name is that it's believed to be a cult and i was like oh gosh and so i was like Who puts a huge wall around their church? Yeah.

All are welcome. Yeah. Stay the hell away. That's exactly right. And so then I was like, so I was like, oh, my gosh, it's a cult. And then I was like, I know what case I have to do. Okay. October 30th, 2012. It's 940 p.m.

2012 it's 9 40 p.m and the sheriff's department responds to a report of a dead body at longview lake picnic shelter number 12 in kansas city missouri we've actually talked about longview lake on here before have we yeah that's where kelsey smith's body was found oh yeah yeah it's also a lovely it. It is a lovely place. There's a beautiful park and yes. I feel like parks and jogging trails get a really bad rap in true crime. A tan Ford Windstar van was found in a parking lot near the picnic shelter. And in the van's backseat, deputies found the body of a young woman. In the van's backseat, deputies found the body of a young woman.

A white plastic trash bag had been pulled over her head and tied under her chin. She had on running shoes, black sweatpants, a light blue fleece sweatshirt, and a diamond wedding ring. Her eyeglasses had been removed and were folded up and placed in a cup holder on the console a handwritten note was found next to her glasses it read my name is bethany deaton i chose this evil thing i did it because i wouldn't be a real person and what is the point of living if it's too late for that? Oh my. I wish I had chosen differently a long time ago. I knew it all and refused to listen. Maybe Jesus will still save me.

So that was obviously not written by her. Really? A little heavy on the blame game for my taste. Also on the console were two 100 count bottles of acetaminophen PM. One was unopened

and the other was empty. A photo ID for Bethany, who was an RN at Menorah Medical Center, lay on the floorboard of the van. Bethany was 27 and she had recently completed her nursing degree and she had just started her first job as a nurse and she was excelling at it. Her supervisors thought she was great. She was very empathetic. She had a great bedside manner. Things were going well.

Other items found in the van included a set of CDs produced by the International House of Prayer. So just a little tidbit about IHOP as it's known around here. Yeah, that's not just a weird joke. I mean, no. They call themselves IHOP. it's known around here. Yeah, that's not just a weird joke. I mean, they call themselves IHOP. They call themselves, yes. So the believers, the parishioners, whatever, of IHOP believe that the second coming will soon occur. It will occur in their lifetime

and that God needs their help to return Christ to earth and that he needs their help to return christ to earth and that he needs their help through prayer they believe in like 24 hour a day prayer thus the name yes okay yes so bethany had actually moved to grandview like four years prior to her body being discovered specifically to come to the international house of prayer okay um she had gone to she was from texas she'd grown up in texas and she had belonged to an ihop worship group there okay and that group included about 20 members and they had almost all of them relocated together to Grandview to come to the headquarters. The group lived in two separate houses. They called themselves the community.

They lived in a male house and a female house. Oh, God, this is weird. Very close to the headquarters in Grandview, Missouri. Can you imagine being their neighbors? That'd be so weird. Oh my gosh. Yeah, no. Yeah.

So this, the community, as they called themselves, were kind of a splinter group. They, what they did was not mandated by IHOP, but they were very heavily involved. And most people believe that IHOP knew exactly what they were up to as their little group. What were they up to? So it was just a very tight-knit group of worshipers, Kristen. That's all. Mm hmm. Kristen. That's all.

Mm hmm. They were led by a man named Tyler Deaton. Who was Bethany's husband, though. They didn't live together. They did once they married. OK. Once they married, Bethany moved into the mail house and shared tyler's basement bedroom with him oh god that's grim oh god um but tyler was the eccentric leader of the community he believed that he had been called by god to start a worship group july 20th of 2007 while he was standing outside

a barnes and noble waiting for the midnight release of harry potter and the deathly hallows why oh so god spoke to him then and said god spoke to him then and told him that he needed to form a worship group um he was still living in texas at that time he went to uh southwestern texas or southwestern university in georgetown texas okay which is also where bethany went and so he was he was super into fantasy books um he was very into magic had been his whole life sounds pretty devilish if you ask me and so he was there in line at that barnes and noble waiting for the final harry potter book to be released and god spoke to him what did god say god said you need to form a worship group and this was a message that tyler had been waiting for

because tyler was really battling in his life he had a lot of homosexual urges oh boy oh boy that was wrong kristin okay this is and um that god would god would help cure him my god no yep never yep does not work right but i mean what better group to join to pray the gay away than the international house of prayer that literally never stops praying 24 hours there's not a moment where there are not tons of people at the headquarters praying. You know, some of those people are just zoning out. Like they have to pray for like 11 hour sessions. They go into the prayer room and they just have to be there praying. Oh my gosh.

Mm-hmm. Okay, okay. Okay, so Tyler is battling with these homosexual urges. He's pretty sure he's gay. Yeah, I'm pretty sure too. And he knows that that is wrong and that God can save him. So he gets a message from God to start this worship group. And he's like, yes, this is it. This is how I turn my life around.

And so he does. He starts this worship group. They are very devout and things are going pretty well. And things are going pretty well. Initially, the group started to get together just like once a week. And then it grew from there. All of a sudden, they were always together. And then it came to them all graduating college and moving into these two houses together. Right, because Tyler wanted to continue living with a bunch of dudes.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yep. So now, so they've moved to Grandview. They've been here about four years. Tyler decides that it's worked he's no longer gay he is attracted to bethany he's sure of it does bethany know this whole story yes oh she is in love with tyler tyler is super charismatic and like i'm sure he is yeah he's a cult leader uh-huh yeah

he's super charismatic everyone is like on the edge of their seats listening to him every word that comes out of his mouth sounds like gospel like they will eat up every word of it. And so finally, in I believe August. Yeah, August of 2012. Tyler and Bethany get married. Tyler tells her, I'm no longer gay. All of the praying has worked. I know you're in love with me. I feel affection for you.

We're going to get married. And so they do. And like her family is like, this is weird. Oh, really? The wedding was super weird. Her best friend thought the wedding was super weird. Her best friend said, I'm sorry, I should have said this already. Most of this information comes from two sources, an episode of 48 Hours and an article in The Rolling Stone.

Okay. So on this 48 Hours episode, her best friend says something like, the family and the friends were not involved in the wedding at all. It was just the core group. The community. The community. And they were just like, the family and friends were just like on the outside as spectators looking in. And her best friend said,

I remember thinking that day, she's still beautiful, but it's like, she's faded. It's like, it's a wilted kind of beauty. Like this isn't Bethany anymore. Oh my God.

Mm. Hmm. She said, her best friend said that she had a premonition that it would be, that at her wedding, that it would be the last time she saw her friend alive. Oh, wow. Yeah. So that was in August of 2012. I thought you were going to say, like, a premonition that this will end in divorce or this guy's not great. That it would be the last time she would see her alive.

Wow. So that was August 2012, October 30th, 2012. Bethany's body was found in the backseat of her van. Oh, my God. So back to the day that the body was located, they do an autopsy, you know, whatever whatever her death is ruled a suicide and her body was released back to her family for burial in her hometown in texas things kind of go on you know whatever and then two days after her body is released on november 9th a man walked into the Grandview Police Department.

He was a friend of Bethany's. He was a member of the community. His name was Micah Moore, and he was one of the original members of the group. He had gone to Southwestern University in Texas. He was one of the early recruits into the community. He walked into the police department, and he said, I killed her. It wasn't a suicide. I should clarify that even though I'm, I was familiar with this case's existence,

I have no memory of it whatsoever. So that is not a fake gasp, just so everyone knows. He said, this isn't a suicide. I killed her. And I it on tyler's orders yep over the past few months micah told detectives bethany had been being dosed with saraquil which is like an anti-psychotic drug and that he and the other men in the men's house had been sexually assaulting her and they were worried she had recently um began going to a therapist because she was having battles with depression and questioning her faith and stuff and they had begun to worry that she might tell someone oh my god and so tyler had ordered her murder. That's not all that was going on in the men's house.

What the hell? What more could be going on? There were all kinds of... Well, obviously Micah and Trevor were banging. Taylor. Tyler. Tyler. All of the men in the house were banging.

Oh, well, I really... Tyler had seduced all of the men. Uh-huh. And well i really and tyler was had seduced all of the men uh-huh and though they well wait hold on i thought he was 100 straight thanks to the praying um so initially it started because he wanted to practice for his honeymoon so that he could oh his wife oh boy no better practice than a dick i mean what doesn't make sense i wanted to make sure that he could perform on his wedding night and on his honeymoon he and bethany went on a two-week honeymoon after after their wedding and never consummated their marriage in fact they never had sex a single time it's weird because he got so much practice with those dudes.

Yeah. So investigators are like, what? What's it do? And so they bring in independently. They bring in the other male members of the community. And yes, it turns out that like four of the men in the house had been having sexual relationships with Tyler, including Micah. And raping Bethany. Sexually assaulting Bethany. Yeah. Yeah. While she was being drugged.

Ugh. At least one of those relationships was considered long term. And then another member of the house, like the youngest member of the house, said that he had not yet had a sexual relationship with Tyler. But he felt that he had been being groomed for it to wow begin yeah yeah the men during these interrogations said that tyler was their spiritual leader that they believed everything that came out of his mouth but that he was very manipulative and that he exercised complete control over the members of the household and that he characterized the sexual activity as a religious experience ah yes so on this on this 48 hours episode i sorry, I'm going to try and find this quote real fast.

He is interviewed. Tyler Deaton is. Yeah. And they ask him if he had sexual relationships with these men. So, okay. So he admits in this interview to being sexually intimate with several members of the group that were living in this home. And he's asked if Micah was his lover.

And he said, no, that wouldn't be accurate. And they said, you didn't have a sexual relationship? And Tyler says, oh, no, with him? And the interviewer says yeah with Micah and he's like yes

yeah yeah that happened well what well yeah and he said it was

a religious experience not a relationship and so that's why he was confused by the question question yes fuck off yeah and so he's asked then if um he had this relationship this this physical sexual relationship while he was married to bethany and he said, yes. And they said, was Bethany aware of this? And he said, not to my knowledge. Well, no, because it was between him and God. And you know, why? Why trouble her? Yeah. And he said, not to my knowledge. And then they asked him about

consummating the marriage. And he said, no, we never had sex sex and they the interviewer asked him well how did that affect your marriage and he said it just two weeks into it our marriage had problems it the lack of intimacy took a huge toll on her and affected her self-esteem very negatively and so the interviewer asked did she threaten divorce and he said no no she didn't what she did was way worse so he said bethany's personality blames herself that's the way she works she internalizes things and she internalized it and i was too freaking stupid and ignorant to recognize what was going on and she took her own life oh yeah yeah okay you don't think she took her own life kristen absolutely not that note was a dead giveaway so when when micah walked into the police department that day and

said i murdered her and this is how i he walked them through how he did it he tied the the bag around her head he drugged her first he'd given her a bottle of water that was drugged and then when she was in a manipulative state, when he could easily control her, he tied a bag around her head until she died. Oh, God. They arrested him that day and charged him with first-degree murder.

Yeah. And they actually immediately called her family and asked them to stop because they were about to bury her yeah yeah yeah yeah and they were like what's going on and they told them about micah's confession and they were like we knew she did not take her own life and detectives had already been a little bit suspicious there were a couple things when the bag was removed from her head her eyes were open which is very um it does not match if someone has taken a large amount of drugs.

Oh. And according to the scene, she'd taken 100 Tylenol PMs. Uh-huh. And then her family said that it didn't make sense to them that she would have drugged herself with Tylenol PM. She was an RN. She could have gotten something much stronger. That's an excellent point.

Yes. She would have easily had access to something stronger than Tylenol PM. Yes. And they said that she was a very gifted writer. Uh-huh. And that the tone of the note did not match her at all. In the least. And so kind of all hell breaks loose when this comes out.

It makes national news. People start looking into IHOP and, you know, what the hell's going on there. So IHOP released an official statement on her death at that time. I had pulled up to read then i accidentally closed it hold on one second so on november 12 2012 so three days after micah's confession ihop released this statement the international house of prayer university faculty was saddened by the tragic death of bethany deaton on october 30th bethany had attended a six-month internship at ihop in 2009 and went on to become a registered nurse working in a local hospital like they're taking credit for that on november 10th we were shocked when the jackson county sheriff's office notified us that an ihop student by the name of micah moore a man who knew

bethany since their college days in texas had been charged with her murder. Since Bethany's death, it has come to light that over five years ago, both she and Mr. Moore joined an independent, close-knit religious group in Georgetown, Texas. This religious group of fewer than 20 people was led by Tyler Deaton. They relocated to Kansas City over the last few years and operated under a veil of secrecy the group has always operated independently of ihop and it is important to all of us that this group's secrecy and disturbing religious practices are fully exposed mr deaton led his religious group entirely independently from ihop though he and some of his members were enrolled in our program. We have been working closely with local authorities in their ongoing investigation into Bethany's death.

We continue to fully assist all law enforcement agencies in their efforts to uncover the extent and specifics of this horrific crime. We are currently taking all necessary steps to minister to our students and ensure their safety and wellbeing. As an educational institution built around the priority of prayer, we ask everyone to please join us in praying for Bethany's family and friends

and all affected by her tragic and untimely death. Due to the ongoing police investigation we have no further comment at this time so they were like separate separate separate uh-huh as quickly as possible and we had no idea what was going on with tyler deaton because they were doing their own thing under a veil of secrecy yeah yeah we had no idea about all the orgies and the drugs. I. OK. You've got this group of 20 people who are. Completely devoted to this guy and IHOP doesn't know. Yeah, that's where they're all going and taking courses every day and in the prayer rooms every day.

You don't know what's going on. Yeah. I don't believe that. I don't believe it for a second. What do you think they knew? I think that they. I think that they knew that he believed he was a prophet and they probably encouraged it he believed that he was getting messages from god that he was god's prophet well he did get

that message outside the barnes and noble yes i 100 believe they encouraged his prophet behavior Oh, because that's pretty much the basis of IHOP is that people will be selected to get God's messages. And that, oh, yeah. And that you need those people to lead the prayer so that Christ can come back. Those prayers from those people will lead to the revival. Okay. Okay, I'm with you now. Yeah. That seems very hard to believe that they wouldn't have known more.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Or at least known, this is something really sketchy and we need to shut it down. Shut it down. Well, I think that they, I think there's probably a good chance that they had realized that it was escalating to that point. Uh-huh. And then this happened. Yeah.

And they were like, oh, fuck. Yeah. Although they probably didn't say that because they're religious. Yeah, although they probably didn't say that because they're religious. So this is their their like number one tenet. I hopped. So God needs I hoppers to affect the tribulation and bring Christ back to earth. The church causes the great tribulation. And they argue that God intends the parishioners or the prophets to be used like gods.

God has conceived in his heart of a plan to make a race of men that would live like gods on earth. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. Yes. So they believe that there are specific men who will be chosen among them who will be able to hear the voice of the Lord. Okay.

This whole thing makes a hell of a lot more sense now. Yeah. And yeah, who cares about some woman when you've got this godly man living in a basement in Grandview? So the founder of IHOP, his name is Mike Bickle. He founded it in like 1983. He said he was instructed by God to establish a 24-hour prayer in the spirit of the tabernacle of David. And so this 24-hour prayer was to resurrect the spirit of worship and that that would then bring the second coming of Christ. Okay.

So God spoke to him and he created this place in Grandview, Missouri. Okay. So God spoke to him and he created this place in Grandview, Missouri. This founder of IHOP claims that he visited heaven one night at 2.16 a.m. and that the Lord charged him with preparing for an end times ministry and seated him in a golden chariot that lifted off into the heavens. golden chariot that lifted off into the heavens. And this is common in IHOP. Many people tell of these experiences.

Well, sure. If you have the opportunity to be part of this race of men who are gods roaming the earth, then yeah. I would probably also get the call outside of Barnes & Noble. I'd probably also visit heaven and stick around for just a little while. So the vanguard of God's end times army, as Bickle calls it, will be made up of young people or forerunners, seers specifically attuned to the will of the Lord, the best of all the generations that have ever been seen on the face of the earth. When Christ returns, he will slaughter by sword in a single day, the unsaved and his warriors, the people of IHOP will rule heaven and earth forever more

it is worth noting that this is not the only IHOP is not the only organization in or movement as people call it that believe in this prophecy uh-huh um but well but the other groups believe it for themselves yes yeah okay yeah i don't know i can't get behind all that no no sounds very culty to me. Yeah. Sounds a lot like a cult. It smells a lot like what Charles Manson was preaching in the desert. Yeah? Yeah. That his

his group his family were the chosen and they were going to survive the end of days and then rule the world. And he knew this

because God was sending him messages through the Beatles music. Oh. You know what? Yeah. Yeah. We're in this together. Yeah.

We're going to prevail. Yeah. And we will live like kings. Yeah. Yep. So Micah has come and given this big confession that all of this stuff was going on behind the scenes. Bethany was being drugged. She was being sexually assaulted, raped.

And that all of these men were undertaking all of these weird sexual relationships with one another. Whatever. So, the women's house legitimately had no idea that any of this was going on. I'm sorry. They call their parents, like, all of these parents come and, like, pick their young adult children up and take them home and whatever. And, like, legitimately some of them did not realize that they had been, like, sucked into a cult. Well, yeah. I mean, you never set out to join a cult.

That would be me. I'm telling you it would be me. Are you telling me? I'd be like, oh my gosh, Tyler, you're probably right. Yeah. But, yeah, I mean, these people were completely under his spell. Like, they completely believed every word that came out of his mouth. And he was described as being very handsome, very charismatic.

He played the guitar. That, oh, let me tell you you from my years at church camp the dude that the hot dude that plays the guitar and sings the songs oh he is the god among men yes and i know you always say this you would not get sucked into a cult. You would not. I think I. You question too much. You're right. I do question. Yeah.

You would not get sucked into a cult. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. I'm scared it's going to happen to me. They give me like someone gives me like five compliments and then is like, you're so smart. You've been chosen for this. I'd be like, you're so smart. You've been chosen for this. I'd be like, you're exactly right. Tell me more.

Tell me more about the end of days, Tyler. This podcast is a cult. So Micah is arrested and charged with a first degree murder of Bethany. The community disperses. Tyler frickin' isn't charged with anything. He takes off for Texas. He gets a job as a pre-calc teacher in high school. Like, he's a super popular teacher.

People love him. Of course he is. And then his students start Googling him and they find out what happened in Grandview and he gets fired. Whoa. Yeah. Wait, he wasn't charged with anything nothing hurry up to the part where it changes it was a suicide we all know it wasn't so they reopen my investigation into her death and her the cause of death is changed from suicide to undetermined okay so they can't clearly say yes she was murdered it is

possible that she could have killed herself in the manner like she it would have been physically possible for her to tie the bag it's unlikely it's a very odd way for someone to yeah it's very odd um and she had actually like the bag had entered her windpipe because she had, like, fought so much. And so the drugging didn't really match. So two weeks later, Micah Moore is in court for his first appearance. His, like, official arraignment or whatever. And his lawyer drops a bombshell he is recanting his entire confession uh none of it was true

you care to know why yeah i'm waiting i am on the edge of my seat. This is his attorney's official statement. Okay. The facts suggest Bethany Deaton's death was an unfortunate suicide, and Micah Moore had nothing to do with that suicide. Driven to the police station by representatives of his church community, Micah told a fictional account that was bizarre, nonsensical, and most importantly, untrue. She went on to say that the doctrines taught by the community to him by Tyler Deaton affected Micah's mental state. She said, these were statements of a distraught and confused young man under extreme psychological pressures as a result of his friend Bethany's untimely suicide and sudden removal of his spiritual leader, Tyler Deaton, from their extremely close-knit religious community. So immediately after his death, Tyler like skedaddles out of there. Yeah. So immediately after his death, Tyler like skedaddles out of there.

Yeah. And one article that I read said that the remaining members of the community attempted to perform an exorcism on Micah because they believed that he had maybe been inhabited by a demon. Oh, God. His attorney claims that it was that failed exorcism and all of the stress of Bethany's death and Tyler leaving that caused some kind of psychological break that made Micah believe that he was responsible for Bethany's death. Okay. When, in all actuality, was a suicide. No. Nope. You don't believe it was a suicide. No. Nope. You don't believe it was a suicide?

Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I believe what her family said. Yeah. So do I. Yeah. I don't believe it. I don't think it matches.

I think you were totally right. I think the suicide note, the tone of it is very odd. It's very blamey. maybe Jesus will still save me. No. That's written by somebody else. I think it's 100% written by someone else. Yeah. So the case against Micah moves forward.

Like I said, IHOP has completely separated themselves from him. Tyler's off. He's completely separated. He's gotten off like scot-free, basically. Yep. Micah has completely recanted his statement, but the prosecution's moving forward. They think they can prove that

she was drugged. They've got enough witnesses who can testify about the things that were going on inside the home. Micah's trial was scheduled to begin on November 17th, 2014. And then on October 31st, 2014, just about two weeks before the trial was to begin, and almost two years to the day after Bethany's death, the prosecution announced that they were dismissing all charges against Micah Moore. What?

Yep. It was like they called an emergency hearing and it was a bombshell. They had no evidence. This is the official statement. My office concluded that we could not ethically continue to pursue the case given the current evidence against Micah Moore. So that's the official statement from Jackson County Prosecutor Jean Peters Baker. The duty of the prosecutor is to seek justice, not merely to convict. The death of Bethany Deaton remains a great tragedy.

She was a talented and gifted young woman whose life ended too soon. Our deepest sympathies continue to go out to her family. This decision was reached after consultation with Bethany's family. So the prosecutor, the prosecution's office said that their investigation during this time had determined that some of the statements made by Micah to the police were unreliable or unsupported by the evidence. Wow. These included Moore's DNA was not found on the bag used to suffocate Bethany. And her DNA was found on the outside of the bag. DNA samples were taken from multiple persons in the community, and none were found present.

Was there any DNA on the outside of the bag from anyone other than her? I don't know. Okay. They didn't say that specifically. They just said everybody that they tested around her, the community basically, were all cleared of any of their DNA being on it. Wouldn't you wear gloves, though? Yeah, you sure fucking would, wouldn't you? Yeah.

Yeah. A handwriting analysis done by the FBI of the suicide note concluded that it was written by Bethany. Bullshit. I know. Handwriting analysis is bullshit anyway. Yeah. What is this? The 1950s?

Mm-hmm. Go home. And Seroquel, which Micah claimed to have drugged her with. Oh. Peanut. Nothing's happening, Peanut. Really scared me, though though It scared me too And Seroquel

Which Micah had claimed to have drugged her with Prior to strangling her Was not found in her system Wow Yep That's not great Yeah Holy shit that's not great. Yeah.

Holy shit. Mm-hmm. And finally, the medical examiner's office concluded that they couldn't determine a cause of death. It could have been suicide. It could have been something else. And that the prosecution relies heavily on the medical examiner and without them being able to say this was a homicide, there wasn't much for them to move forward with.

Wow. Mm-hmm. I get that. But holy shit, somebody got away with something here. So the prosecution would not go as far to call Bethany's death a suicide. This case remains open. Yeah. So what do you think?

I think she was murdered. Well, of course she was murdered. I 100% think she was murdered. There's no doubt? I think she was murdered. Well, of course she was murdered. I 100% think she was murdered. There's no doubt in my mind she was murdered. Now... I think she found out that Tyler was having homosexual relationships with the men in the house and threatened to tell, threatened to go to the church authorities, threatened to do something. And she was murdered.

Even only threatened to do something and she was murdered even only threatened to leave yeah i could even see not really threatening anything but like if you believe that you're a god among men and someone is giving you the slightest bit of trouble, or someone is around and you don't want them to be around, get rid of them. Yep. You're going to rule the world after the end of days, which will be, you know what, I don't know. Thursday. Yeah, sure.

Yeah. Sure. So who cares if you commit a murder, or you tell somebody to murder someone? Yeah. So this case is technically unsolved. It remains open. Her cause of death remains

undetermined her family believes that she was murdered of course i believe she was murdered yeah yep but who did it who did it oh man that's the story of the cult in Grandview, Missouri. Are we allowed? Cult with a question mark. Cult question mark? Alleged cult. Okay, alleged cult. Who do you think did it? Allegedly.

Allegedly. I don't know. I mean, I think Micah has to be involved. I don't think you just go confess to something without having any involvement in it. I think it's exactly what Micah said. I think it probably is. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Hmm. Oh, that was upsetting. Yeah. Yeah. Here's what I remember. So, sorry, technically did not go to trial, but that story was way too crazy not to tell. That's,

that's a court story to me. Yes. That's, that's really fascinating. Yeah. Because like, I think the prosecution 100% thinks they had the right guy. They just couldn't prove it.

That has to be so frustrating. Yeah. But you know, that happens all the time all the time i believe something can't prove it yep if i bring it before a jury right now with the evidence i have right now they won't convict yeah and then you lose your shot yeah just have to hope that somebody who knows something yeah it weighs on their conscience and they come forward yeah and they're listening to this podcast yes and they're like you know what

i've learned that alzheimer's is bad and that i should that's right go talk to the police on our on the along the lines of alzheimer's is. So we do a funny thing on here sometimes where we talk about, you know, all brads are blonde, all marks are Canadian, all deities are bad. So one of our listeners messaged us on Facebook and he was like, hey, I have a theory kind of going off of that. He's like, I want to know, you know, this listener's name is David. And he's like, I want to know if your David likes Tiramisu. I have a theory that all Davids love Tiramisu. And so I was like, hey, I'll find out for you. So I asked

David. David does, in fact, like tiramisu. So got a new theory. All Davids love tiramisu. All brads are blonde. All marks are Canadian. Dee-dees are terrible. Davids love tiramisu. on all marks are canadian dds are terrible david's love tiramisu these are the facts undeniable facts um so now that we're on to the show notes yeah portion uh so today is kyla's birthday today's my sister's birthday we're recording this on may 15th and she i texted her this morning to say happy birthday she texted me like hey i'm so excited that i get to listen to the podcast today you know it's like yeah i'm i'm gonna read to you oh okay so i said happy birthday sis and she goes thank you sister was thinking earlier this week how excited i was for a podcast episode on my birthday and i sent her a bunch of happy faces and i thought oh boy the episode that's airing on

her birthday is one where a child dies in a car yep and my sister has kids and this is so anyway i but i decided not to say anything and so kyle and texted me all caps like two hours later later why did brandy do this case on my birthday this is the worst one for me and I said I know I hated it too and she goes poor baby I'm sorry but Brandy has to be fired Kyla I'm so sorry then she clarified poor baby as in the victim not Brandy she must suffer for what she did. So, Brandy, I'm sorry. You're fired.

You're fired. All right. You went too far. I'm so sorry. I've got another thing. Okay. So, someone reached out to us on Twitter, and it's also the person who runs the subreddit. Oh, one of the mods on our subreddit. Yeah.

Ookla? Sure. Okay. Here's what she said. And I actually wrote about this on reddit because she posted it on reddit too that this the point she's making is so good that i actually got angry because i was like why didn't i think of this when you told it to me here's what she said if ross didn't intend to kill cooper and fake it why wouldn't he have done the fake freaking out when

he put the light bulbs in the car why go back into the car at lunch at all i think the guy was an absent-minded asshole who had sexting on his mind which i think is totally possible i have another theory what's your theory cooper may not have been dead yet at that point okay very interesting that you said that in my reddit comment yeah i said and i acknowledge that this was a very dark thought, was that he went back to check and see if Cooper was dead. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very possible.

Well, okay. Well, I'm glad I brought us down with that. But it was just one of those points that I was like, ah, that's not a bad theory. Yeah, it's not a bad. It's not at all. Okay. I have. Look at us with our show notes.

I know. We're so organized. Okay. So last week I mentioned that I had taken David to some of our childhood places. Like I took him on a little tour of my bubble. So this weekend he did the same for me. He took me to one of his favorite places. Which is James A. Reid Memorial Wildlife Area. What? Yes. one of his favorite places uh-huh which is james a reed memorial wildlife area yes so he's like

he's like okay i'm gonna take you one of my favorite places and he pulls up and he's like are you ready and i was like yeah and he's like check out the sign as we go in and i was like james a reed that's my dude yes yes so um it's like this really cool place like it's a like a conservation area whatever but there's like fishing and stuff place. Like it's a like a conservation area, whatever. But there's like fishing and stuff like that in it. Yeah. And so he took me to like his favorite fishing spot in there. Yeah.

This lake inside is called Lake Nell. Wow. Yes. That is so cool. And for people who don't know what we're talking about. Yes. James A. Reid was like a famous Kansas City prosecutor. Nell Donnelly was like at one time

considered the most successful businesswoman in America. They hooked up on the side. Then they got together legit. Yes. We've done many cases, many old-timey Kansas City cases involving them. So how cool. Yes.

How cool. Lake Nell. I thought that was awesome. Yeah. He like showed me his favorite like fishing pot part. And then I like read the sign. I was like, do you know what this is called? And he's like, no.

I was like, it's called Lake Nell. Yeah. And he's like, okay. I was like, I bet it's named after Nell Donnelly. Of course it is. Of course it is. Of course it is. Of course it is. That's amazing.

Yeah, isn't that awesome? I love that you and I are the type where we make these connections and we want everyone else to be just as excited as we are. Yes. Very rarely works out. That's right. Okay, I have one more. Yeah. So I read about this today.

This kind of goes along with my little court case, like my weird court cases that i bring up at the end of episodes yeah yeah so my favorite one was the gravy one you're disgusting um putting gravy in quotation marks um ariana grande is being sued by a paparazzi what's the what's the singular term for papa paparazzo you said paparazzo? Sorry, you said that. Paparazzo. A pap. I don't know. I don't know. For taking their photos and sharing them on her Instagram.

Wow. Yeah. And this is not the first case of this. Apparently a couple of other celebrities have been sued for this. Yeah, she's suing for any income earned by her sharing those pictures or $25,000, whichever is greater. They're pictures of her. Leave her alone. I think that's crazy. They're pictures she didn't ask you to take of her.

Like you stood outside of her apartment and took them as she left. Yeah. I think that's so crazy. apartment and took them as she left yeah i think that's so crazy yeah i think if there's a silver lining to having annoying men standing outside your apartment ready to photograph you at all hours of the day it's maybe you catch a fun shot for your instagram every now and again yeah now she is being sued for sharing it on her Instagram. Thank you, Next. Yes. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. I don't care for it one bit. Yeah.

Hey, you know what I do care for? What? All those new ratings and reviews we've gotten on iTunes. Yes. We've gotten a bunch. Thank you, guys. Except you want to tell them the sad thing? Yeah.

So here's the sad, horrible news. I don't know about horrible. No. It's horrible, Kristen. Okay. Kristen and I had a party yesterday. We celebrated through text message because we reached our 250 goal. Yeah.

And then somebody's iTunes account got deleted, and so we're back down to 249. We're plummeting like ProJared over here. Oh, timely reference. Well, you know. Anyway, so I guess we're still working on that 250 goal. So please help us out. Head on over to iTunes. Leave us a rating.

Leave us a review. And then find us on social media. We're on Facebook. We're on Twitter. We're on Instagram. We're on Reddit. We're on YouTube. Find us all those places.

And then join us next week. When we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. And then join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from FamousTrials.com,

Newspapers.com, the Detroit Free Press, and Wikipedia. And I got my info from an episode of 48 Hours, as well as articles for The Rolling Stone, The Huffington Post, The Houston Press, and the Kansas City Star. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.