Let's Go To Court! - 72: The Assassination Attempt on Ronald Reagan & Bite Mark Analysis

Episode Date: June 5, 2019

Ione Cychosz’s life ended in the worst possible way. Her body was discovered in a vacant lot. She’d been beaten, stabbed, and bitten. There were no witnesses. And since it was the 80’s, investigators didn’t test for DNA. So they turned to a relatively new form of science — bite mark analysis. A forensic dentist examined the bite marks and told detectives that the killer was missing an upper front tooth. It didn’t take long for investigators to find 20-year-old Robert Lee Stinson. Robert lived near the crime scene and was missing a right front tooth. The detectives knew they had the right guy. There was just one problem: They didn’t.  Then, Brandi tells us about the assassination attempt on President Ronald Reagan. Interestingly, when John Hinckley Jr. set out to murder Ronald Reagan, he didn’t have a political agenda. In fact, John later admitted that he opened fire on the president in an attempt to impress actress Jodie Foster. He’d become obsessed with Jodie ever since he saw her in the movie Taxi Driver. His trial drew worldwide attention and forever changed the way we look at insanity pleas.  And now for a note about our process. For each episode, Kristin reads a bunch of articles, then spits them back out in her very limited vocabulary. Brandi copies and pastes from the best sources on the web. And sometimes Wikipedia. (No shade, Wikipedia. We love you.) We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the real experts who covered these cases. In this episode, Kristin pulled from: “False Positive: When Forensic Science Fails,” Vox video “Robert Lee Stinson,” National Registry of Exonerations “Robert Lee Stinson case,” Wikipedia “Robert Lee Stinson,” Innocence Project “Innocent man piecing life together after conviction,” by Dinesh Ramde for the Associated Press “A long ride for me,” by Dinesh Ramde and Todd Richmond for the Associated Press “Man sentenced to life for murder,” Associated Press In this episode, Brandi pulled from: “The John Hinckley Case” by Denise Noe, Crime Library “The Trial of John W. Hinckley Jr.” Famous-Trials.com “John Hinckley Jr.” wikipedia.org

One semester of law school. One semester of criminal justice. Two experts. I'm Kristen Caruso. I'm Brandi Egan. Let's go to court. On this episode, I'll talk about bite mark analysis. And I'll be talking about an assassination attempt. Is it Reagan? It is! Oh! I'm so excited. I don't know anything about this. You don't? No. I didn't know anything about it either. Okay, this is great. Yes. Woo. Woo. Woo.

But I'm going first. You go first. I saw you looking at me like I was supposed to start. You go first. I think I'm just excited for yours and I kind of wanted you to start. But fine. We'll go in order. Okay.

First of all, poor Ian. go in order. Okay, first of all, poor Ian. Ian had no idea that when he emailed with two cases I would just, like, do them? Do both of them? Do you think he's going to be upset about that? No, you're right. Not poor Ian. But I just think

it's funny because people email in with or, like, reach out to us. Yeah, we get a lot of case suggestions. And it's rare that we'll like, that one will just happen to strike our fancy. Well, Ian... I'm sorry, I just i just flipped that right into the mic yeah and by the way who are you drinking red bull right now so good it's the new flavored red bull this is pear flavored it's delicious what year is it it is 2019 it's sugar free what does that have to do with anything? Anyway. So first off, major shout out to this Vox video.

I'm not going to tell you the title of it because it would give too much away. Because I didn't put it in my notes. That's actually true. It's at the very end. But no, like almost everything comes from that vox video so go check it out if you want to um hear a more professional retelling of this case we're in milwaukee wisconsin it's 6 45 in the morning november 3rd. A man had just made a very upsetting discovery. He'd found a woman's dead body in a vacant lot by his house.

He immediately told the police what he'd seen, and they rushed to the scene. That's where they found 63-year-old Aion Chikaz. So, whatever had happened to her had been awful. The Vox video showed photos. Really? Not complete. They blocked out some stuff

but this poor woman when police arrived she was just wearing a pair of socks one shoe and her bra and shirt had been pulled over her head. She'd been beaten, stabbed, probably raped.

She'd undergone just an awful attack. Police began to talk to her friends and neighbors, trying to figure out, you know, like, did she have any enemies? What was her life like? But she didn't have any enemies. She played bingo at church every friday night she collected aluminum cans to recycle everyone said she was just really nice so what had she been doing on the night she was attacked coming home from bingo oh shit police were able to taking her life in her hands yeah evidently

not a not risky behavior at all no oh so police were able to establish that she left for bingo at like 8 p.m and that meant she probably returned home around midnight her friends had dropped her off near her house, although another article I saw said she took the bus, but whatever. That was the last time they saw her. Investigators were kind of screwed. They talked to a lot of people in the neighborhood. No one had seen anything.

And this was before they could test for DNA. So without any witnesses and without some guilt-stricken criminal coming forward, they didn't have much to go on. Yeah. They did find a knife near her body, but when they dusted it for fingerprints, nothing. Nothing. But the case wasn't totally hopeless. Whoever had murdered Ione had done something kind of strange. What?

He'd bitten her. Like, bitten her a lot. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Investigators took dozens of high-quality photos of the bite marks and did basically the only thing they could think to do. They had a dentist come in. Makes sense.

Dr. Lowell Thomas was a dentist, a forensic... Odontologist? Thank you, a forensic odontologist. And a professor of dentistry. So they brought him in to examine her body. He made impressions of the marks, studied them up close, and pretty quickly he made a really helpful discovery. The killer had jacked up teeth.

The dentist told detectives that whoever did this had an abnormality in one of his upper teeth. So Lowell worked with this police sketch artist and they created an image that he believed would resemble the killer's teeth. Wow. Detectives were like, great. Three days after Ione was murdered, they were going around talking to neighbors, and that's when they met Robert Lee Stinson. met Robert Lee Stinson. Robert was 20 years old, and he lived with his mom and his siblings directly behind the vacant lot

where her body was found. Ooh. Did he have jacked up teeth? Mm-hmm. Mm. Detectives started asking him questions, you know, where were you the night of the murder? And he told them that he'd been at a party.

He'd stayed there till about 1130 at night, then went home, fell asleep, slept till like 9 a.m. Nothing woke him up. Nothing unusual happened to him. He didn't do anything wrong. He just went to a party and went home. No big deal. But as they were talking, the detectives started telling him jokes. And Robert laughed. And that's when they noticed that one of his upper right teeth was missing. Right away, Detective Thomas Jacqueline thought, we got the guy.

The detectives felt great because that, so that had been like their strategy. As they walked around talking to people, they were trying to get people to laugh so they could just see people's teeth. No word on what joke made Robert laugh. I wish we knew. I know.

Do you have a guess? Like a killer knock-knock joke? I don't know. Knock-knock. Who's there? Dishes. Dishes dishes dishes who dishes the police open up that's so stupid let me tell you something if you went around biting people you'd be so easy what if what if you knew that was the strategy someone was trying to get? Like,

I'd be fucked. You just have to wrap a scarf around your mouth. So they had found their guy. Brilliant. Wonderful. Or was it? They told him that they needed him to undergo a dental exam, just to clear him as a suspect. And Robert said, sure, because he had nothing to hide.

So he went to Dr. Lowell Thomas Johnson, and Lowell said, could you just part your lips like this, Robert? And Robert did, and Lowell said, okay, now, could I look down here? Okay, that's fine. So that was it. That was 20 seconds. What? Uh-huh. What's wrong?

That's not very thorough examination. 20 whole seconds. One Mississippi, two Mississippi. At no point did he consult the sketch that he'd made with that sketch artist. He didn't need to. He knew that Robert's teeth matched the sketch he'd made based off of those bite marks.

No. In fact, Brandy, the similarities were remarkable. I'm no odontologist, but I'm saying there's no way you could know that after 20 seconds. Maybe you're just a crappy odontologist. You gotta do that thing where you bite on the paper and it leaves the...

That's when you remove excess lipstick. No! It's called blotting. With that, the court ordered that Robert Lee Stinson undergo a complete dental examination. Oh, okay, great. So that was like the first step. Preliminary 20 seconds. Right.

How long is the actual exam going to take? Probably 40 seconds. Right. I don't know. So let's back up and talk about forensic odontology for a minute. What? By this point, forensic odontology had been around for decades. I think longer than that.

What is with your face right now? What do you mean? Let me show you how you were looking. I'm listening to my ear. You guys, she had one finger up that was propping her mouth open. And then she's acting like I'm the weirdo for not being able to have a conversation with her right now. Oh, I'm sorry for being the freak here. So it's used a lot to basically identify dead bodies.

And it's pretty accurate. You know, if you have x-rays, if you have dental records, and then you have a body right there, you can fairly accurately make an ID on somebody. That makes sense. But it wasn't until like the 1970s that forensic odontology started to compare bite marks to potential criminals. So by the time this science was used on Robert, it was fairly new. And maybe science is a generous term.

Yeah. it was fairly new and maybe science is a generous term yeah the first time bite mark analysis even appeared in a court case was 1975 wow it was the people versus marks so this guy was accused of killing his landlady and the thing that you know really helped in his conviction was that the killer had bitten her nose and left. I know, I know. That makes my stomach all floppy. I know, I know. I don't like that at all. So he'd left teeth marks, and the case went to the Court of Appeals, and the appellate court judges were like,

yeah, they admitted this is not an established science, but they allowed it anyway. And since our system runs off of precedent, since one court allowed it it a bunch of other ones did too then a few years later came the ted bundy trial i was gonna say i just watched the how was it oh it was good was it really good okay i need to watch it yeah um but yeah so one of the big pieces of evidence in that trial was bite mark analysis once that happened there was like no stopping this bite mark stuff it was everywhere because now there was a bunch of precedent plus a major trial

that everyone had followed it didn't matter that bite mark evidence wasn't an established science it had been accepted into our court system and once you get in it's hard to get out um yeah we're really sleeping on that ted bundy movie it's almost entirely about his trial really yeah what the fuck were we waiting for i don't know yeah david and i watched it this past weekend it was really good well why didn't you do that for this this week i figure everybody knows about it already yeah probably he needs to hear about Bundy now. I mean, that's kind of how I feel. Everyone's watched the Bundy tapes.

Everybody's seen the Bundy movie. Yeah. Old news snooze fest. That's a little bit how I feel about the OJ Simpson trial. Yeah, same. People have asked us to do it. First of all, it's gigantic. We would need a four-hour episode to scratch the surface. Yeah.

And I feel like everybody knows it. It's so good, though. It is really good. Like, if you came in one day and you were like, I'm doing OJ Simpson, I'd be surface. Yeah. And I feel like everybody knows it. It's so good, though. It is really good. Like, if you came in one day and you were like, I'm doing O.J. Simpson, I'd be thrilled. Yeah. So maybe that's how people feel. Maybe.

They just want to hear it from our sweet, Midwestern voices. That's right. Like I said, once it's in the court system, it's hard to get it out. The Vox video was so interesting, because they talk about how in science, it's kind of of just the opposite you're always trying to prove and disprove and like get better and better and better but the court system works totally differently because you know we want everyone to have a fair trial and one of the ways you can do that is like well what happened

to this previous person so then and so it's, it's terrible for this type of thing. That's so true. I've never thought about that before. Well, thank you. I'm genius. Vox didn't come up with that point. I bet Vox pointed that out completely. No.

So this was all pretty scary because bite mark analysis was so new that no one had studied it enough to know whether people who did bite mark analysis could do so with any accuracy whatsoever yeah so dr lowell thomas johnson did a more thorough examination of robert lee stinson's teeth this time he did an extensive and exhaustive analysis so don't worry two minutes he stopped for red bull kept going and he found that robert's teeth would produce bite marks identical to those found on ion's body did they make him make tooth marks bite marks um we'll talk more about what they had him do but yeah they did a lot of impressions they did a mold they did the whole shipping what's the difference between an impression and a mold Kristen

do you feel like this is a trick question I just asked you I mean I feel like it could be the same thing right but the mold is where you have something tangible that you could yeah that's what an impression is all right all right impression you put the tray with the goo in yeah it sits uh-huh and then it comes out and then i guess what you're saying you take the impression and then you pour the mold from the impression you're right kristen i apologize

sincerely one more time for the people in the back the evidence in this case was overwhelming don't make that face i don't feel like it is who are you to argue with dr lowell thomas johnson you're right who am i exactly it was overwhelming brandy okay Which was very strange of him to say, considering that when he first examined the bite marks on Ione's body, and he did that sketch with the sketch artist, his drawing showed that the killer was missing an upper right lateral incisor. But Robert was missing an upper right lateral incisor. Mm-hmm. But Robert was missing an upper right central incisor. Mm. That is a big difference. That's your front tooth or your one next to it?

Yeah. Pretty important detail, huh? Yeah, and you can easily tell the difference, I feel like, because those teeth are nowhere near the same size. Right. Of course, that was never mentioned. Okay. So let's keep on trucking shall we all right daniel blinka was the assistant da for milwaukee county and he listened to lowell's impassioned argument but daniel wasn't completely convinced okay he was daniel was not the only one on this

prosecutorial team but he was the only one interviewed for this video. And it was interesting to hear him because he was just like, got set on igloo in here today. I know it's so cold. You want me to change? Let's see what we've got here. It's so cold. Let's do 72.

Excellent. Norman wants to keep it at 68. No, that's too cold. I agree. I told him it was too cold we compromised on 70 but it's still freaking cold but it's probably not cold up in his office don't sympathize with him i'm just saying if he's in his office it's probably warm up there it is it's cold right here i know you're bundled up right now you're wearing long sleeves. I am. I've got goosebumps. No pants. So this guy was like, you know, you think about how brutal this crime was.

It was terrible. Yeah. And Daniel was just like, Robert just didn't seem like the guy. He was like so cooperative, so nice. He didn't have zero criminal record. But like the only thing on his record was when he was a teenager he'd been caught shoplifting which is like you don't go from shoplifting to biting a woman to death right actually i'm not insinuating that she was bit to death but she was beaten and yeah the whole the whole yeah yeah so daniel was like we don't have enough here. I'm not sure that a jury is going to be convinced. Right. Because I'm not convinced.

So Daniel wanted to get a second opinion. And Lowell said, sure, let me recommend a colleague, Dr. Raymond Rawson. Raymond seemed like a great choice. He was well known and respected in this field. So the detectives flew out to Las Vegas to meet with him. Raymond came to the hotel room where the detectives were staying. He looked at the molds and the x-rays, read over Lowell's findings and said, good enough for me. Really? Five days later, Robert was arrested. Wow.

Yeah. Huh. Robert freaked out. Yeah. He had not done what he was accused of doing. He wrote a letter to the judge saying, Your Honor, I'm facing life for something I did not commit. He asked for a new lawyer. The lawyer he'd received had only been on the case for two weeks before they went to

trial. He just didn't feel good about it. But Judge Janine Geske denied his request. Then when Roberts defense attorney Stephen Cohn made a motion to exclude the bite mark evidence she denied that too she called it a recognized area of science wow so which is probably not wrong but well i mean the wording there a recognized area well yeah i guess i guess sure But the interesting thing about this case is that, like, because of the timing at this time, a judge didn't, a judge wasn't supposed to weigh in on whether, whether this evidence was respected in the scientific community, whether it was any good. It was just, I believe the standard was like, would it be helpful to a jury? And sure, it'll be helpful. Of course. But what a stupid standard. Yeah, that's not, yeah, that's not what this should, wow, what the decision should be. Right. Yeah. If, if the helpful, if the helpfulness could make them go in the wrong way, then that's not helpful at all exactly

and that didn't change until i want to say shoot why didn't i write this down didn't put it in her notes everybody drink i want to say it was either 2003 or 1993 i know a 10-year range yes when the supreme court actually weighed in on this and they were like, no, the science has to be actual science. But even then, they talked about it in the documentary, even though we have this nice language that sounds really reassuring, it's still not where it needs to be. Yep.

Anyway, how dare you make fun of me for not putting things in my notes? I'm just saying. Ever since that person pointed that out, I can't not hear it. I say it like three times an episode. You think I didn't write anything down. Lowell took the stand as an expert witness for the prosecution. And damn, was he compelling. He had all these great credentials.

He spoke well. He seemed very certain. He said the bite marks would have to have been made by Robert Lee Stinson. Then the other dentist, Raymond Rawson, took the stand and he was equally certain. He said there was no question that this was a match to a reasonable scientific certainty. The defense did try to get their own expert witness, but they hit a snag. The guy they wanted as their expert witness looked at the evidence and sided with the prosecution.

Wow. Another source that I read said that Robert's defense attorney also had trouble getting a good expert witness because before the trial, Dr. Lowell Johnson went to this big odontological conference and presented his analysis about this case. So all of a sudden, all of these people who could have been experts had been tainted. Odontologist knows all of this information now. Right. Yeah, that's a problem can't deliver a a seminar on a case that's ongoing yeah i wouldn't think so i would think that would be seen as very unethical yes evidently not to take a step back

over the years it became clear that bite mark analysis is really, really tough and not exact. It's tough to match a person's teeth to a bite because you have to take in so many different factors. The variables would be huge. Exactly. So the angle of the bite, the force, sometimes teeth can look like they're missing when they're not and vice versa yeah and i would even say like the temperature of the skin that's being bitten would be a huge one thank you for saying that because i had something in there and i was like i i don't know how to say this without seeming weird but like yeah a person's skin yeah and maybe when the body is discovered

yeah all of that i feel like could impact could impact things. Have an impact, yes. But in this trial, the jury didn't get a sense of how inexact bite mark analysis really is. And that was apparently fine. Oh, I did write this down, because back then the only requirement for expert testimony was that it be relevant and helpful to the jury. Wow. Expert testimony was that it be relevant and helpful to the jury. Wow.

It wasn't until a Supreme Court decision in 1993, Brandy. That was one of the years you mentioned. It was one of the years. That we have the new standard we have now. That expert testimony has to come from established science. And that the science has to have a method for testing. Hey, I didn't do too bad, right? You got it. You nailed it. Well, with the exception of the year-ish, fudging, fudging it all up. You were 50% correct. Thank you. What's the standard we aim for here? Just

helpful and relevant to the listeners, right? That's right. No scientific basis here. 38% accuracy is really all we're aiming for. And we hit that 60% of the time. That's right. So in his testimony, Lowell told the jury that the work he'd done had no margin for error. What? Okay, this is what drives me crazy. Because one of the things they always say is like, well, you know, it's up to the jury to decide how much weight they're going to give an expert's testimony. And it's like, well, OK, but if someone comes up and they say, here are all of my impressive credentials.

Yeah, exactly. And the evidence is allowed into a court of law. Why would I assume that they were full of shit? You wouldn't. That's exactly it. You would not. Especially if there's two of them and no expert witness for the defense. Yeah.

What am I supposed to think as a juror? Yep, exactly. Then Robert took the stand in his own defense. He told the jury that on the night of the murder, he'd been at a party. And he'd stayed there until 1230 at night, then went home. Then he went to the store with a friend. What? He never said that before. Uh-huh.

Okay. He walked behind his house. As he walked, he heard footsteps and someone saying, shh, shh, in the alley. So, yeah, that's not even close to the story that he told police initially. So the prosecution obviously jumps up. Yeah. And they're like, hey, you initially told police that you went to a party, got home, fell asleep. You didn't tell police that you went to the store.

Yeah. Or that anybody was in the alley shushing anyone. And like Robert just kind of squirmed through this. He said something. I can't remember what it was, but the prosecution had made their point. Yeah. Robert had changed his story.

Yep. Robert was a liar. Yep. Oh, bad, bad move, Robert. Why do you think he did that? Because I mean, obviously, I think it's obvious to everyone now. He did not do this crime. Yeah, I think he thought that if he could present

another suspect, it would probably help him. Yeah, I mean, he was, what, 20 years old. He didn't have confidence in his defense attorney. Yeah, right. And he was, what, 20 years old? He didn't have confidence in his defense attorney. Yeah, right. And he was just like, well, what can I say now? Yep.

Ugh. After just three days at trial, both sides gave their closing arguments. The prosecution talked about the bite marks. The defense talked about how police hadn't thoroughly investigated this case. They'd found another suspect a block or two away from the crime scene, but they didn't test his teeth. He's a suspect.

The jury went into deliberation. They came out two hours later and they found him guilty. Guilty, yeah. Of course they did. First degree murder, yeah. He received life in prison. First degree murder. Yeah. Yeah. He received life in prison.

Oh my gosh. But how can you blame them though? Oh, right. No, exactly. They had no idea. Now tell us the great part where he's exonerated and all of that. Don't make that face. You mean my beautiful sexy face? Yeah.

It's the only face I can make Brandy some people have resting bitch face you have sexy beautiful face resting sexy face sexy beautiful face no I definitely have RBF I do not have RBF

well you have slurping that Diet Coke, swishing that around. Yeah, you have a very pleasant face. Thank you. Pleasant resting face. Oh, God. But no, it's not a compliment because that's why weirdos... That's why weirdos talk to me. Yeah, they're like, oh, for the first time in my life, a woman is looking at me...

A woman is looking at me and she doesn't look disgusted she must want to talk to me i promise i don't but she probably wants to get in my car right now i definitely do not and i'm not gonna follow you anywhere either how many times have you been asked to get in someone's car uh i don't know that i've been asked to get in someone's car i definitely like i was at the post office once and this guy like from the intersection like motioned to me to like stand still i was in the post office parking lot uh-huh and then he pulled into the parking lot and he was like i had already like gotten in my car and i was peacing out of there why why didn't you obediently stand still for this man

he follows me out of the parking lot and he follows me until he can pull up next to me at a light and he's like roll your window down roll your window down i was like i'm good and i'm good and he was like follow me and he like wanted me to turn and follow him and i was like absolutely not weirdo dude i'm good i was like you caught a glimpse of me in a parking lot from several yards away like how cute could i possibly be it turned out that brandy had a flat tire that day she was there was a man with an axe in the back of my car and brandy's like quit hitting on me good samaritan did i tell you i feel like i've told this on the podcast yeah where i was driving when i was

driving down the highway and those two weirdos wanted me to stop at a rest stop with them no thanks maybe you haven't told it on the podcast okay well if i haven't i just did i was driving down the highway by myself i was like 20 old. These two guys pulled up in a car next to me. They were honking and waving, trying to get me to pull off at a fucking rest stop. No thanks, sir. I can rape myself. What would you say to that? Well, seriously, what woman would pull off?

No one. I mean, unfortunately unfortunately probably someone would but i can't i cannot imagine oh rest stops are scary enough as they are i'm not gonna like voluntarily make some new friends okay so it has to be an exonerant i'm sorry i'm not busy talking about this i'm not busy i'm not done talking about this well i guess i'm done now since i can't talk at all blah blah blah but robert didn't get up give up or get up or stand up get up stand up stand up for your rights yes and he did yay he did okay so he was innocent so he appealed his case on the basis that the trial shouldn't have allowed that bite mark analysis

but the wisconsin court of appeals disagreed they were like no this bite mark analysis is rock solid and dr lowell thomas johnson did an excellent. So you're clearly guilty and you're not going anywhere. Why are you dancing right now? I'm solid as a rock in my head now. Solid as a rock. Solid as a rock. You're making that up. That's a real song.

No, it's not. Yes, it is. You sang it to the melody of an NSYNC song. No. Solid as a rock is... You sang it to... Baby, when the lights go out... No, that is NSYNC song. No. Solid as a Rock is... You sang it to Baby when the lights go out.

No, that is not the same song. Is that Backstreet Boys or NSYNC? Neither. The love and tenderness I'll show you what it's all about Babe, I swear you will succumb to me

So baby, come to me. When the lights go out. Really? Now I gotta look up that. So much homework to do. You're right. Five. Boom! Killed it. Wow, Brandi.

You're amazing. I know my boy bands. You're amazing. Are you guys talking about five? Yes, we are. Do you know Five? Norman, get down here. How the hell do you know about Five? Well, because Disney Channel would air the Five Bewitched concert all the time.

Oh, Bewitched. Remember Bewitched? C'est la vie. They had a live concert at Say you'll do what I don't Oh, sorry, go ahead. They had a live concert at Disney World and Disney Channel aired it all the time.

So, were you just sitting up in your office listening to your favorite podcast? Yeah, I heard you guys singing. Do you want to give us an endorsement right now? No. Get back here. Get back here. Say we're the best podcast. You're the Gaming Historians'

favorite podcast. Wow. Wow. You guys, he said it. You just couldn't hear it. Yeah, he just got really shy about how much he loves it. The whispers. Rock steady. And we begin to rock steady. Steady rocking all night long. Okay. You've never heard that song no i'm sorry okay

this is the second time today like norman brought up a song this morning what song that song oh that right that's right insensitive or something jan arden yeah i swear to you I had never heard that song yeah he sang it and I can get like the the chorus of it but I didn't remember any of the verse okay that's saying something this episode is a mess

and I blame you I'm sorry because I danced to a song yes you because you do your creepy like silent what was that we were listening to that thing before the episode and my so my computer was unmuted i apologize how dare you i won't let it happen again yes yes okay so he stands up he gets up he stands up he stands up for his rights uh-huh and the wisconsin court of appeals was like you should give up the fight

yeah because they turned him down um in 2003 he'd been in prison for 18 years still innocent still stuck and that's when he reached out to the wisconsin innocence project everybody should support the innocence project no kidding my gosh, they do amazing things. They really do. Yeah. They took the case. They got the evidence that had been used against Robert out of storage, and they sent it to four forensic odontologists. So that panel of experts looked everything over, and they concluded unanimously that Drs. Lowell Thomas Johnson and Raymond Rawson had been wrong.

And they'd actually made a series of errors during their examinations. So a lot of the things that Lowell did in front of the jury, like he held this dental model next to a bite mark impression. And like he would, I wish we had video, but he'd like clamp the clamp, the fake teeth onto it and show like, hey, here's how it fits. But it turns out you can do that with almost any dental mold and any dental impression. And it's going to look close enough. And especially if you're an expert saying, look how that fits. People are going to be like, yeah, he's saying it fits and he's an expert.

Yeah. Who am I to judge? Yeah. I'm no odontologist. I think that's the fourth time i've said that on this episode i'm so glad because people are so confused um but this new panel of dentists didn't just say that the other dentists had been wrong they were able to say that based on robert's teeth it could not have been him. Couldn't possibly have been him.

The people at the Innocence Project talked to the prosecutors, and the prosecutors went and talked to Lowell, and Lowell was like, nope, they're wrong, I'm right. Of course he says that. See, it drives me crazy, though, the of course he says it, because holy shit, holy shit. I mean. Yeah, if you're fucking wrong, you should admit you're wrong.

Yes. He's obviously not going to do that. That's so upsetting to me, though. Yes. And I guess. This poor man's been in prison for 18 years at this point. Yeah. Has he been exonerated? I can't handle it.

Continue. So the prosecution was like, okay, Lowell, we trust you. So they were like, sorry, Robert stays in person. Ugh. Do you remember that one time? Sorry, this is totally off topic, but on the topic of the name Robert. Uh-huh. We were at like a church lock-in together one time.

Okay, yes, I recall. And we were playing a game in a big group of people. And I had forgotten this guy's name we were playing with. And I was supposed to write down everyone's name to keep score. And I thought I'd be slick. And I was like, oh, how do you spell your name? And he looked at me like, he goes, R-O-B? Hey, remind me how you spell your name.

Oh, Rob. Thank you. I'm not from this country. Okay. Okay. So occasionally we'll do, so when we check people in at the salon yeah like either to tan or whatever they'll give us their names and like i'll do that occasionally and it bites you in the ass sometimes like i'll be like oh remind me how to spell your last name oh oh s-m-i-t-h okay so it's the standard i just't sure. I didn't know if there was a silent E at the end of it.

But I feel like that has to work in your favor more often because people feel like, oh, they know me. Yes, yeah. More often than not, it works in your favor until, yeah, you get one that you're like... Until you get a Smith. Okay, great. I was testing you, really.

So the Innocence Project was like, well, shit. What else can we do? So they looked at all the other pieces of evidence, and they found that the shirt and bra that Ione had been wearing that day had DNA on it. And the DNA... Did not match! Right. Right.

So in 2008... Oh, your face. The team entered the mysterious DNA profile... Yes. ...into a Wisconsin DNA database. And does it match? But they didn't get any matches. Oh, no.

But still, Robert's good. It's not Robert. It's not Robert. And finally, after 23 years in prison, the prosecution agreed that they'd had the wrong guy. Robert Lee Stinson was free. Oh, good for Robbie. He walked out of prison, gave his sister a really big hug.

This is going to sound weird. Their hug made me cry. I watched a video of it, and it was just a really, really long hug. Their hug made me cry. I watched a video of it, and it was just a really, really long hug. In an interview, he said, I'm finally out, and I'm going to enjoy my life now. Oh, my gosh. Did he get a bunch of money? We'll get to that. Oh, no.

So immediately afterward, he and his family and his lawyers drove straight to Applebee's, and reporters stood outside the restaurant wanting to ask him questions, but he was like, I'm hungry. So he went in. He went inside, ordered a strawberry iced tea and two plates of fried shrimp. I felt I had to put that in just because like the picture of him with like these two plates of shrimp, like it's just like, oh God, this poor man. He went away when he was 20 years old.

Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? No, I can't fucking imagine was 20 years old. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine? No, I can't fucking imagine. It's like, it's terrifying to hear about people who went, go away for years at a time for crimes they did not commit. Yes. The year that Robert was released from prison, a study came out that shat all over by mock analysis.

So I'm going to read some of it. It says, although the majority of forensic pages, single space, two 54 pages, everybody just hang tight. Okay. If you think I'm just going to pick out the important parts, you're dead wrong.

Although the majority of forensic odontologists, which Brandy is not one of are satisfied that bite marks can demonstrate sufficient detail for positive ID, no scientific studies support this assessment and no large population studies have been conducted. Wow. In numerous instances, experts diverge widely in their evaluations of the same bite mark evidence, which has led to questioning of the value and scientific object objectivity of such evidence. In other words, this is not science bullshit. Wow.

Then in 2010, after Robert had been out of prison for a year, investigators found the man whose DNA matched the DNA on the sweater it was moses price jr okay this guy scares the shit out of me okay okay so he'd never been a suspect in her murder and in fact around the time robert was arrested moses pled guilty to two armed robbery charges he had also been accused of rape but my understanding is that because he pled guilty to two armed robbery charges. He had also been accused of rape, but my understanding is that because he pled guilty to those two other charges, they were like,

we'll pretend you didn't do that, which is great. And also, don't worry, he was also a known murderer. He killed a guy and set the man's house on fire. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Once police had the DNA match, they interviewed moses and he confessed he said he'd been drinking that night saw her blacked out next thing he knew he was on top of her oh my gosh the detective was like you know someone went to prison for this for 23 years and moses was just like oh no my bad he did this thing of like oh my gosh i had no idea if i'd had any idea yeah exactly exactly and i do not buy that

you didn't know that someone went to prison for that no when you commit a murder you keep tabs on it we've seen all the movies they all have scrapbooks with all the newspaper clippings. Hey, I am constantly checking up on that murder I committed a few years ago just to see if they've put any pieces together yet. They're tracking down the laugher right now. I'm clear so far. For the record, I've committed no murders. That's exactly what a murderer would say.

But what about Robert? As I said, the crime took place when he was 20 years old. He'd been in prison for 23 years for a crime he didn't commit. He had nothing to show for the time that he'd been locked up. So he asked the state for compensation. So cue the big eye roll from me here. Wisconsin limits compensation for wrongfully convicted people to just $5,000 per year. Hold on.

$5,000? It gets worse. $5,000 per year or $25,000 total. What? Yeah. Yeah. That's what your time is worth. That's some bullshit. Yeah. Can's what your time is worth. That's some bullshit.

Yeah. Can you sue the state? So, okay. But there was a loophole in this where the board can ask lawmakers to approve more than the standard amount. So Robert asked for $115,000. That's all he asked for? Millions, buddy. You go for millions. I know. It was only five grand per year i think it was like if we're gonna get anything yeah it's gonna be this low amount and he told everyone all he wanted was to be able to buy a car and for himself to be able to go to school for a criminal justice

degree that's all he wanted gosh eventually they did award him that amount i read another article that said he got less than that. But anyway, I can't handle that. Let's go with this version. But everyone with half a brain knew that Robert deserved more. Yes. So he filed a lawsuit saying that he'd had an unfair trial. Yes.

True. Yes. Initially, he sought $1 million per year of incarceration. Okay. Yeah. I'm kind of like, million per year of incarceration. Okay. Yeah, I'm kind of like, sure, start with that. Shoot for the moon, buddy. You'll land among the stars. Brandy made that up just now, and it is beautiful.

But his case got delayed and delayed and delayed. And Brandy, are you ready to be so pissed off at me right now? Oh, did he die? No, no, no. Okay, I'm sorry. No, actually, I believe in one of the articles he read, I don't know if they're still together, but after he got out of prison, his high school sweetheart

reached out to him, and they got engaged. But anyway, the point is, this has been delayed for nine years. This isn't finished? You fucking asshole. It's slated to go to trial in June of 2019. What is the matter with you, Kristen? By the time I got to that point, I'd already written everything.

I'm so sorry. You guys, Brandy looks like a puddle right now. I'm sorry. What is the matter with you? I tried looking. I couldn't find anything on it because obviously it's, now that we're this it's may yeah it's may of 2019 yeah it's like the last three days of may it sure is holy shit uh so we'll have to follow up on that one will we know kristen never will you will i will that right. I'm so sorry. Everything around here. Listen, Missy.

I believe I edit the episodes. Make you quieter every time. You do so much work on these episodes. You do a ton of work. Who do you think takes out all of your ums and all of my... I make the most disgusting sounds they get in but trust me folks i take out like nine out of ten nine out of ten i'm so excited oh my god i almost said something terrible i'm so excited for assassination yes great i didn't mean that i just mean like i vaguely know this story but i'm so so excited so i uh just kind of stumbled across this case

because there's a really good article about it on uh for the crime library oh and then also on famous trials like my favorite source and your favorite source so um and this comes entirely from those two sources okay it's like a dash of Wikipedia. Just a sprinkling over the top. Very good. Okay. So it is March 30th, 1981. Ronald Reagan is in his first term as president.

And we're in Washington, D.C. at the Hilton Hotel. Reagan was there speaking to a group of about 3,500 union delegates. He did his speech. He was really well known for his speeches, I guess. He was called the great communicator. Well, he was a former movie star. Absolutely. Yeah. He was very charming, very engaging. And so. And anyone who has any TV experience is obviously going to be a great speaker as we've come to find out. Yeah, it turns out that's not true. So he finishes his speech and then surrounded by his aides and his secret service. He walked out of the ballroom through the lobby of the Hilton and walked through the door to his waiting limousine.

He was waving at the crowd of people who were outside. There were reporters and onlookers when all of a sudden a young man went into a shooter's crouch, both hands on a handgun. A shooter's crouch. Is that like? It's like, yeah. I got you. Yeah. A shooter's crouch. Is that like? It's like, yeah. I got you. Yeah. And the man fired. He got off six shots in three seconds.

Wow. Secret Service agent Tim McCarthy jumped in front of the president, but he caught a bullet in the stomach and fell to the ground. Oh. But he caught a bullet in the stomach and fell to the ground. Another agent, Jerry Parr, grabbed Ronald Reagan and pushed him down behind like the open rear door of the limousine. Just before a bullet smashed into the window. And the windows are bulletproof.

Like the bullet like ricocheted off the window like just as this Secret Service agent pushed Ronaldonald reagan down behind the door how many okay this is probably something you don't know how many secret service agents surround the president i don't know okay probably something we shouldn't know right right yeah i think you're not supposed to know it's four because then you know do you take out four he's unguarded yeah that's why maybe it's a secret. The sixth and final bullet hit Reagan. It struck him in the armpit and then tunneled into his chest. Oh, the president felt this sharp pain in his body, but he thought it was from the Secret Service agent. Right. Pushing him down. Right.

He looked at him and he made a joke. He said, you son of a bitch, you broke my ribs. And by this time, they had gotten up and into the limousine and they sped away from the scene. Sure, sure. There's a book called On Being Mad or Merely Angry by James W. Clark. And James W. Clark describes the scene of the shooting like this. He said, it was bedlam amid the hysterical screams of bystanders, wailing sirens and shouts of Secret Service agents and police attempting to gain control of the situation. Tim McCarthy

laid doubled up on the sidewalk, hands clutching the bullet wound in his stomach. A few feet away, police officer Tom Delahanty writhed in agony from a neck wound. Next to him lay presidential press secretary Jim Brady, the first to fall. His face flattened against the sidewalk, arms twitching at his sides, blood trickling into a storm grate from a pea-sized bullet hole over his left eye. Oh my gosh. So six bullets had been shot and four people were wounded. One of the Secret Service agents was able to overpower the shooter. Service agents was able to overpower the shooter.

They wrestled him to the ground and he made no attempt to flee. Okay. They took him into custody immediately. Well, yeah, I would think, you know, at that point. Oh, yeah. What are you going to do? The reports of the incident were reassuring at first, especially concerning President Reagan. He underwent a successful operation and was expected to fully recover. And then of the others that were shot,

Tom Delahanty and Tim McCarthy were expected to survive. But things were not as good for Jim Brady, the one who was shot above the eye. These bullets were called exploding devastator bullets, which meant the tip of the bullet exploded upon impact. And it had hit him in his brain. It was touch and go if he was going to survive at all. Finally, it was announced that he would live, but he would be permanently impaired. He was paralyzed for the rest of his life on one half of his body and spent the rest of his life confined to a wheelchair.

That poor man. So news of this shooting, you know, goes out, this assassination attempt, and all of the attention is focused on the shooter. Who would do this? And more importantly, why? So the shooter was identified as john warnock hinkley jr it pretty quickly they found out that there was no political motivation whatsoever that is the weirdest thing to me instead he was trying to impress a woman uh Uh-huh. Jodie Foster. Yes. This is the one part I know. That's fucking nuts. Well, I mean, it just shows.

Like, I mean, we're like trying to find logic in this, but, you know, he was deeply troubled, clearly. We're about to find out how deeply troubled he was. But was Jodie Foster impressed? She was not. What? Weird. You'll hear how unimpressed she was later women can be so

difficult to read so john warnock hinkley jr was born in oklahoma in may of 1955 on may 29th of 1955 so that is today oh gross yes happy birthday question mark um He was the youngest of three children to John Hinckley Sr., who they called Jack, and his wife, Joanne Moore Hinckley. Jack was a businessman and later became chairman and president of the Vanderbilt Energy Corporation. And then Joanne was a homemaker. So this was a pretty, they were a well-to-do family. The Hinckley children were very popular when they were growing up. And John was kind of seen as like the shy one in the family, but he still seemed like a normal kid overall.

He wasn't a loner, but he didn't have a ton of friends. He didn't have really any close friends. And then he wasn't like made fun of or anything. He just was kind of isolated. He didn't have really any close friends. And then he wasn't like made fun of or anything. He just was kind of isolated. Okay. But when he was with other kids, he was liked. He was voted like the best basketball player in elementary school. So, you know, he did all right. As I mentioned, the family was affluent, but not extremely wealthy. Jack worked a lot to provide for the family, which meant that it was often just his wife at home taking care of the kids. And it was kind of an affectionless home. So later on, Jack would say that he gave his son

a hug after he was charged with the assassination attempt. And that it was the first time he could remember hugging him since he was a small child. What the? And at the time of the assassination attempt, John was 25. Okay, I do not understand this at all. Although that was in parenting books for a while. Yeah. That you shouldn't be affectionate with your child, which is just insane to me.

Mm-hmm. So the family moved several times in John's childhood. that you shouldn't be affectionate with your child, which is just insane to me. So the family moved several times in John's childhood as part of Jack's job. Like he had to relocate to different areas where his company was headquartered or whatever. When he was in the sixth grade, the family moved to Dallas and they had a really nice house. They had a swimming pool and like the big thing was that they had this like Coke vending machine in their house, which was seen as like a really big

deal. Oh, that would make you the coolest. Can you imagine? Yeah. So again, like John seemed very well liked by his classmates. He was active and an active participant in school activities. He was actually so popular at this point that he was elected president of his seventh grade class and then later his ninth grade class. Wow. Yeah. He also was the manager of the school football team. And during junior high, so during the same time when he was living in Dallas, he became really interested in music. He started playing the guitar. But this is kind of where his shyness, he wouldn't, kicked

in, he wouldn't play in front of anyone. Okay. He became very interested in music. It wasn't until high school that John started to exhibit what some might call like signs of trouble. Mm-hmm. started to exhibit what some might call like signs of trouble. And again, it wasn't that like anything super weird was going on. In fact, like John's parents' friends always commented on how lucky they were

because John wasn't drinking. He wasn't taking drugs. He wasn't running around with like a bad crowd. He wasn't like having sex with a bunch of girls. He wasn't doing anything, actually. He'd like completely withdrawn by this point. And so everybody else is like, oh my gosh, how lucky you are that you guys have such a well-behaved kid.

When instead, like this is when he started exhibiting signs. Right. He was so isolated. He completely withdrew. He lost interest in sports he stopped participating in any athletic activities he didn't date at all he spent hours in his room just like strumming his guitar and listening to music and he became super obsessed with the beatles he like super obsessed.

He collected all kinds of memorabilia and books about the Beatles and everything. And this would have been, would this been a little late to be obsessed with the Beatles or was this, like, right on time? 70s. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Yeah. So, yeah, not, like, real

early in the Beatles. Yeah, still. So, all in all, he's not getting into trouble. He's just not doing anything. And this actually really started to bother Jack. Jack hated it. He saw his son as like lazy and lethargic and like it was really, he was, Jack was the kind of guy who was always like working and always completing tasks and getting stuff done. And so the fact that his son was not like that became like a real sticking point for him yeah but they didn't see this as any kind of sign of a bigger issue it was just like to them just another like introverted introverted teenager who didn't want

to talk to his parents well and i wonder if you know so many people blame stuff on generational yeah i wonder if they were like this generation. They're just lazy. La, la, la, la. Absolutely. When clearly, I mean, it sounds like he was depressed, right? Right. So that's kind of where this, like the question starts.

Was he depressed and that led to him withdrawing and doing all this stuff? Or did he start to withdraw and because of that became depressed? Either way, the end result is that he was isolated and definitely suffering from depression. Sure. So in 1973, so yeah, this was going on. It was like the year after John had graduated from high school. The family moved again to Evergreen, Colorado this time, which is a pretty upscale suburb of Denver. And Jack's business had opened a new headquarters

there. And so they relocated and John decided he wasn't going to go. He was going to go to Lubbock, Texas and go to college instead. Okay. He wanted to stay in Texas. He wasn't going to go to Lubbock, Texas and go to college instead. Okay. He wanted to stay in Texas. He wasn't going to go to Colorado. So he enrolled at Texas Tech. How old was he at this point? He had like 18 probably. Okay. Okay.

So he had just graduated from high school. So he attended Texas Tech for a year and then he ended up like taking a year off and going and living with his sister who lived in Dallas. And then he decided he was going to go back to Texas Tech. But then the worst happened for John. The Beatles broke up? Nope. What happened?

He was assigned a black roommate. Are you serious? I'm serious. This kind of sent him on a spiral. I'm serious. This kind of sent him on a spiral. His family said that bigotry was never anything in the home. His sisters said that, like, that was never anything that the family believed in.

Like, they had friends who were African-American. Oh, that's what all racist people say. Oh, definitely. Okay. Definitely. Oh, that's what all racist people say. Oh, definitely. Okay. Definitely. But John very quickly disliked his roommate, and that led to a dislike of blacks in general.

He began reading pretty much exclusively literature by white supremacist groups. Oh, God. Oh, God. Well, this poor roommate. Can you imagine? I know. I can't imagine. Side note.

Yeah. So, gosh, what year did my dad go to college i mean it would have been in the 70s yeah but he said that on his application they asked you if you were okay having a black roommate that's crazy isn't that insane insane yeah so which can you imagine if you were black and you were filling that out you're like you'd be like well i guess i'm all right with it no i mean that's it's just ridiculous to me also a tad racist just a smidgen i suspect there's racism thereoot. There might be racism afoot here. By 1976, John had quit college and he decided he was going to become a songwriter, naturally.

So he wanted to become a big racist songwriter. Great. So he moved to California. The KKK can't write their own songs. Where it's super conservative. Yeah, why is it going to California? Why not some conservative southern state? Like Nashville?

I mean, I would say that would be the more conservative choice, right? Then. I should say so. So no, he moves to California. He's going to break into music. And then something that would greatly form the rest of John's life happened. He saw. The Silence of the Lambs? Nope.

All my guesses have been wrong. Taxi Driver. Oh. The Martin Scorsese movie starring Robert De Niro as Travis Bickle. So Travis Bickle is a veteran who drives a cab in New York City, and he is suffering from chronic insomnia in that film. The job of driving a taxi at night gives him a view of the city that fills him with disgust and loathing. He becomes infatuated with a lovely blonde named Betsy, who was played by Sybil Shepard. And Betsy seems to epitomize everything pure and wholesome.

So Bickle tries to woo her and he invites her to an X-rated movie in order to woo her. I bet she's never seen sex before. Yes. So she's completely turned off by this and refuses to ever see him again and so he is like thrown down this loneliness spiral because it totally didn't happen how he wanted it to so interesting the script for taxi driver was actually partially inspired by the story of arthur bremer who attempted to assassinate governor and presidential candidate George Wallace. And this assassination attempt actually left Wallace disabled.

Oh. But like the character Bickle, Bremmer had offended and lost this young woman that he was courting when he showed her pornography. What? Who thinks that that's a good idea? These guys are so dumb and weird. Yeah. So in this movie, in the movie Text Driver, I'm telling you this because I'm assuming you've never seen it.

How dare you? You've never seen it. Robert De Niro. I've seen it like once ever. What's the famous line? Go ahead, make my day. No! You had me on hello.

No! Life is like a box of chocolates so in the movie after um after Bickle's character is rejected by Betsy he makes friends with Iris who is this 12 year old prostitute played by Jodie Foster oh Bickle hates that she is on the streets and it becomes like his mission to save her so the the famous line from this is you talking to me oh okay so that's like a really iconic scene in the movie because it shows that he's like completely spiraled out of reality and delusion in this film okay um so, so John goes to California. This movie comes out, it's like 1976.

He sees it 15 times. My goodness. And is completely obsessed with it. And Jodie Foster. A 12-year-old Jodie Foster. Yes. Great. It's believed that maybe the obsession is kind of linked in some mommy issues that he might have had because his mom's name was Joanne and she was, her friends all called her Jodi.

That seems like a bit of a stretch. I agree. But after the shooting, her friends stopped calling her Jodi. I bet they did. That's not funny. Yeah, I guess. Oh, that would be a weird thing, wouldn't it? Yeah.'s not funny. Yeah, I guess. Oh, that would be a weird thing, wouldn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So he's off in California. His family's in Colorado. He calls home one day and tells them he's got great news. He's dating this woman named Lynn Collins. She's a young actress from an affluent family. And they had met when she was on a trip to California, which had been a graduation gift from her parents.

Only later, after the shooting took place, would John's family learn that Lynn Collins was a figment of his imagination. She was completely made up. And she was modeled on Betsy from Taxi Driver. Okay. Yeah. So he's living in California. He's telling his parents he's got this girlfriend. He's also telling them that he cut a demo

and is about to get an agent and all of this stuff. Only also none of that's happening. He is having no success there. And so he ends up moving in September of 76. He moves to Colorado to move with his parents because he just can't. He's not surviving in California. He got a job as a busboy. He worked there for a few months.

And then he was like, nope, I want to go back to California. This sucks. And so he decided to go back to California. This sucks. And so he decided to move back to California in 1977. And again, didn't work out. So he moved back to Texas tech to try and make that work. And so he decided to change his major from business administration to English.

Oh, that's good. There's so much you can do with an english degree just ask me um so he started living in like an off-campus apartment and i hope his roommates were just white as snow and he like really started deteriorating at this point. He started going to like the Texas Tech Health Clinic, like almost daily complaining of different ailments. He had problems with his eyes, with his throat, with his ears and a persistent case of lightheadedness.

Like he always felt like there was something wrong. He didn't have any friends. He was not doing well. And so he began to really fantasize about Taxi Driver and what his life would be like if that was him or if Jodie Foster was in his life. And so he started collecting guns because that's what Travis Bickle did in Taxi Driver. Oh, boy. Yeah. And then he founded an organization. It's an organization, Kristen. I don't know why your face looks like that.

I'm so alarmed. Well. Great. An unstable man with a ton of guns creates an organization. Yes. What was it? It was called American Front. Well, great. An unstable man with a ton of guns creates an organization. Yes. What was it? It was called American Front, and it was an alternative to the minority kissing Republican and Democratic parties.

The minority kissing? That's correct. What? This new political party was for the proud white conservative who would rather wear coats and ties instead of swastikas and sheets. Oh, shit. We're bad, but we're not that bad. That was their slogan.

Oh. He called himself the party's national director. Well, yeah, I guess if you start it. And he grew a large following with members from different states ew except he didn't because it was all made up oh okay yes i everything about the group was completely fake including his list of members okay because i just think you know racism can be pretty catchy. Well, yes.

So. Yeah, I wouldn't have been that shocked if he had been able to recruit some members. Yeah. But no, I don't think he even attempted to. I think it was all in his head. Okay. Yes. Great.

In January of 1980, John suffered this massive anxiety attack, which led to him, like, seeking medical help. He went in for like psychiatric evaluation. He said he was dizzy all the time, but it didn't really lead to anything. They didn't diagnose him with anything at that time. And so instead he continued working on that firearms collection and he formed another company, a company called List-A-Lot. It offered its customers a variety of lists. What are you talking about? No, no, that's all it's known.

That's all it says. Lists of what? Just lists, Kristen. You want a list of shoes? I'll give you a list of shoes. Good shoes, bad shoes, just shoes? Yeah, just shoes. Yeah, the shoes. So his business.

How quickly did he become a millionaire? He made $59 at this business, Kristen. That is shocking. And it only cost him $57 to do stuff. Like legit, that was his balance sheet. Brandy, you own your own business. Is that good, bad? It's not good.

It's not good. And then in May of 1980, he came across an issue of People. Wait, are you not going to tell me how he got his $59? I have no idea how he got his $59, Kristen. He sold somebody some lists. The company was named List a lot. Is that all you've got? That's all I know!

Fine, fine. Continue. So he came across this issue of People magazine in May of 1980 that said that Jodie Foster was attending Yale University. Oh, wow. So John started planning his trip to New Haven to meet her and rescue her. Oh. I wasn't aware she was in need of rescue. yeah i bet she wasn't either uh that's also correct so he continues seeing doctors he's got all these weird ailments still and he ends up back

in colorado because he can't support himself in texas off that 59. And by September of that year, he told his parents that he had enrolled in a writing course at Yale and that he needed $3,600 to take it. And so they gave him the money and he believed that he was heading there to meet Jodi and rescue her, and that this would be the start of this life that he had always wanted. And so he headed to Yale expecting Jodi to be super thrilled to see him. She needed him as her knight and savior. Had he been writing her a bunch of creepy letters? So when he got to yale he started leaving letters and poems in her campus mailbox oh god yeah and then he was able to find her phone number

and he called her twice in which she answered the phone and gave him kind of like a polite brush off and one of them she said i can't carry on these conversations with people I don't know. It's dangerous and it's just not done. It's not fair and it's rude. Oh, God. So he took that to mean the problem is we haven't met. Yeah. And so he said, well, I'm not dangerous. I promise you that.

So he tape recorded these conversations that he had with her. Of course. Yeah. And so, you know, John thought thought here are the answers she needs to meet me and i have to do something that will impress her and i know what that thing is oh god i have to assassinate a president oh my god and so he started following around jimmy carter oh with the plan to shoot him and assassinate him to impress Jodie Foster. Sure.

After he comes up with this plan, he decides he's going to travel to Nashville because President Carter was scheduled to make a campaign appearance there. But an airport security device detected handguns in his suitcase. Wow. They confiscated the firearms and John was ordered to pay a $62 fine. And that's it. You're kidding. That that's it that's all that was done okay yep so he moves back to his parents house and his parents are now like okay something's seriously wrong like there's there's definitely something going on. Perhaps he didn't really get that Yale writing. Yes.

And so they make him go see a psychiatrist. Yeah. And. There. The doctor believed that John had a typical case of social underdevelopment and that he simply needed to learn to stand on his own two feet. He thought he'd been coddled too much. And that was what was wrong with him. Wow. The boy who'd never been hugged had been coddled too much. Okay. Yep. So in this meantime, he's still obsessed with Jodie Foster. In fact, he wrote a letter to the FBI that says there's a plot underway to abduct actress Jodie Foster from Yale University

in December or January. No ransom will be asked. She's being taken for romantic reasons. This is no joke. I don't wish to get further involved. Act as you wish. So he sent that to the FBI. And they did nothing with it?

They told Jodie Foster about it and the head of her dorm. And that's it yeah huh which i guess what what do you yeah i don't know what the appropriate thing to do would be but like the head of her dorm yeah what the fuck is that person gonna do yeah exactly so a lot of people believe that the psychiatrist that John was seeing, his name was Dr. Hopper, that he ignored a lot of warning signs. But, and he probably did. But to be fair, like, John wasn't being honest with him. He wasn't telling him how obsessed he was with Jodie Foster and that he was planning to assassinate a president.

Like, he didn't let him in on that part of his life. And so... But people rarely do in these cases, right? Absolutely. And so Hopper continued to believe that the only thing wrong with John is that he needed to mature, that he was too immature. And then in December of 1980, December 8th to be exact, John suffered a major trauma. This is what kind of what you alluded to earlier. Okay. John Lennon was shot and he took it very badly. He actually

rode a train to New York City to attend a vigil for John Lennon. And when he went home, his parents picked him up at the airport and they said that he looked very disheveled and looked as if he'd been crying for days. And he made a comment to his father. He said, don't make any cracks about John Lennon, Dad. I'm in deep mourning. So this like rocked John Hinckley Jr.'s world. This like rocked John Hinckley Jr.'s world. But something alarming happened as he started like looking into this and examining his feelings about it.

He really felt like he identified with Mark David Chapman, John Hinn's killer. Killer, yeah. yeah yeah and so he went and bought the exact revolver that mark david chapman had used to kill john lennon um he became obsessed with shooting he did a lot of target practice and continued to obsess about jody foster he was traveling to new haven regularly just to leave poems and notes in jody foster's mailbox gross and then he decided he was gonna go live in new york city for a little bit like travis bickle oh yeah yeah and he decided that he would seek the company of some young women. And so he ended up losing his virginity to like a teenage prostitute. Oh, gosh. And later said that he enjoyed it very much.

And then on Valentine's Day of 1981, he took a cab to the Dakota apartment building, which is where John Lennon had been murdered. He said that he intended to kill himself on the spot where John Lennon had been killed. But once he got there, he couldn't do it. And so he had a final session with his psychiatrist on february 27th 1981 his his psychiatrist noted that he seemed um the in the worst shape that he'd ever seen him at at that point and so he encouraged his parents to take a major step and kick him out of the house and tell him he was not allowed to return home that he needed to fly from the nest oh and so they did on march 7th they told him he could was no longer welcome at their house they gave him a couple thousand dollars and told him to figure it out and it was

that was it that was like the thing that likely pushed him over the edge well sure you've got nothing nope nothing else going on so initially he intended to go to New Haven. So he went to New Haven. Sure. And he intended to kill himself in front of Jodie Foster. Oh, my God. Or maybe once he got there, he might kill her and then kill himself. He wasn't quite sure.

But instead, he took a bus to Washington, D.C. And that's where he saw in a newspaper that President Reagan was scheduled to speak. And so he wrote a letter to Jodie Foster and said, I will admit to you that the reason I'm going ahead with this attempt now is because I just cannot wait any longer to impress you. I've got to do something now to make you understand. So he never mailed that letter was found on him yeah so instead of going to new haven he went to washington dc and at 1 30 on march 30th he took a train to the hilton where he knew president reagan was going to be speaking and he waited for him to exit the hotel john caught sight of the president at 145 when he came to like a hotel entrance and waved at the crowd.

And John Hinckley waved back at him. And then at 225, President Reagan exited the hotel surrounded by his bodyguards. And Hinckley moved forward toward the president calling, Mr. President, Mr. President. And as President Reagan turned in his direction, john hinkley jr knelt into his marksman position and fired the six shots he was still clicking the trigger on the emptied gun when the secret service agents tackled to the ground oh and as i mentioned earlier he made no attempt to flee. This was a deeply unhinged, mentally ill person who had sought some kind of help.

Yeah. And I don't know if you say a mistake was made in his care or what, but he was definitely pushed over the edge. The psychiatrist clearly didn't get the full picture, see what was... Yes. Yeah. Yeah. This is reminding me of the Rebecca Schaefer assassination. Yes, so much.

He was also inspired by the Lennon assassination. Yes. So there were dozens of witnesses. The shooting itself was captured on videotape. So when the trial began, the defense only had one option. And the prosecution knew it. Yeah. Insanity.

It would be an insanity defense. one option and the prosecution knew it yeah insanity it would be an insanity defense after he was taken into custody he was put under through extensive psychiatric evaluation sure and when the reports came in there was no surprise all of the government psychiatrists concluded that hinkley was legally sane and that he understood what he had done was wrong but at the time of his shooting at the time of the shooting he was in a psychotic state and legally insane so hinkley demanded that jody foster testify at his trial and he told his lawyers that if they didn't make every effort to make this happen he would refuse to cooperate in any way with his own defense and it's too fucking bad i know right yeah. And so his lawyer worked really hard to make it happen. And finally, he arranged. You are kidding me. For Jodie Foster to testify in a closed session with only the judge, lawyers and Hinckley himself present. They would tape record. Gross gross and that could later be introduced at into evidence at the trial so when hinkley received the news that this was going to happen he reportedly

called his parents and said mom dad i'll be right there in the same room with her no right that's that's so creepy and gross and he shouldn't be able to just order up jody foster right yeah and if if he wants his trial to go down the tubes too damn bad for him yeah exactly right i'm grossed out it's disgusting so on march 30th 1982 one year to the day after the shooting the assassination attempt whatever you want to call it hinkley was taken to the federal courthouse in washington for jody foster's testimony the testimony really upset hinkley because he oh because he had to find out for the first time that she thought he was a huge creep. Because she didn't give him a single glance, a nod, nothing. And as she completed her testimony without any mention of him or any affection shown his way,

he threw a ballpoint pen at her and yelled i'll get you foster oh god yeah he was then like tackled by u.s marshals and taken from the room jury selection for the hinkley trial began on april 27th 1982 okay so who doesn't read a newspaper or watch it? Exactly. So this is really interesting. So the jury was made up of seven women and five men, 11 African-American people and one white person. Wow, that is interesting. Yeah, it's really interesting because at one point, like during the questioning of like, would you be able to remain impartial to this and this and this? They had to ask if they could remain impartial to someone who is racist. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Because there's going to be testimony given how he's a racist asshole. Yeah. And they are going to be asked to remain impartial to that testimony. How do you feel about that? I have no idea. See, I feel like black people would be really good at that.

Yeah. I mean, they're probably used to it. Right. That's what I'm saying. Like, I feel like, I mean, not everybody's going to be good at that,

but I, I think if someone said, yeah, honestly, I do think I could be impartial. Yeah. I'd believe them. So the prosecution started their case and they established obvious that the shooting had occurred and that Hinckley had done the shooting.

And the defense did not contest that in any way. that in any way. The early witnesses that were called included two of the victims, which were the police officer that had been shot, Thomas Delahanty, and then the Secret Service agent, Timothy McCarty. And then a neurosurgeon testified about the brain injury that James Brady had suffered. And then they attempted to show premeditation by introducing that video footage that clearly showed Hinckley in the crowd at at a campaign event for Carter okay so they're like different president but yeah the point was the president yes it wasn't a political motive yes okay exactly there were no surprises there all of that stuff was to be expected. The real trial

was said to begin once the prosecution rested and the defense opened with their insanity case. Sure. They, the defense opened by asking John's mother

about his childhood and his letters to home about Texas Tech and his imaginary girlfriend and all of that stuff that he, you know, invented completely in his head. Right. In the cross-examination of his mom, the prosecution attempted to establish that Hinckley couldn't have been that sick or his parents would have known about it. That either he's not really that ill or there's some amount of culpability on their part for

ignoring it. Wow. I don't think so. Yeah, I don't either. Yeah. And I think it's probably, I mean, he wasn't living in their home with them for all that time. I think it's quite probable that they didn't have any idea how ill he had become. Sure, sure.

Yeah. His psychiatrist didn't know. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's entirely possible for a parent to not understand how bad things have gotten for their child. Yeah, I completely agree. John's dad, Jack, here's some money. You're going to have to make a life and you're going to have to figure it out on your own. Yeah.

Do whatever you want to do. And he said, looking back, I'm sure that's the greatest mistake I've ever made in my life. Oh, that's. Isn't that rough? Yeah. I mean, and he was doing what he thought he was supposed to do. He was doing what he was instructed to do. I know, by a doctor.

By a doctor. Yes. That's so sad. He even on the stand attempted to take blame for what had happened. He said, I'm the cause of John's tragedy. I forced him out at a time when he simply couldn't cope. I wish to God that I could trade places with him right now. Oh.

Isn't that just, like, heartbreaking? Yes. Yeah, because I'm sure he does feel completely responsible. But he was just doing what he had been instructed to do. And he didn't know the full scale of what was going on. No one knew the full scale of what was going on. No one knew the full scale of what was going on. Question. Yeah.

Do you think he really hadn't hugged his child? Or do you think that's something he said to try to get. It could be something he said to get sympathy for John. Yeah. Could be. I'm not saying that's what happened. But I mean. I'm not saying that's what happened, but I mean,

if you felt like that was the only way to save your child from the death penalty, maybe you would say, hey, I was a terrible parent. Yeah. Yeah. The next to testify was Dr. Hopper. He testified about his misdiagnosis of John. He said John was not merely an unmotivated kid who needed behavioral therapy, as he first thought, but he was someone suffering from serious mental illness. some like essay that John wrote, some kind of autobiography that he had written in November of 1980 was introduced into evidence at the trial upon Hopper's request. In it, Hinkley wrote of a relationship I had dreamed about that went absolutely nowhere and said that his mind was

on the breaking point. And Hopper said that he had failed to appreciate the seriousness of the warnings contained in that essay. And he also testified that he knew nothing of Hinckley stalking the president or of his purchase of handguns or of his obsession with Jodie Foster. I think this would be the scariest thing about being in that profession. 100%. Yeah. Because he also at one point testifies that John had IQ of 113. So he's on the intelligent side. That's above average.

And so John probably knew enough of what to say to make it seem like he was giving the full view of what was going on with him. But he was holding stuff back the entire time. I think it's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is why we stick to podcasting. That's right.

After the doctor was done testifying, TVs were brought in to the courtroom and the judge told the jury, Ladies and gentlemen, at this point in time, you will see a videotape rendition of a deposition of the witness Jodie Foster. At this point, like John was sitting at the defense table and he was just kind of, like, slumped over and not paying attention. He, like, sat up and, like, gave his full attention at that time. And on the tape, Foster described Hinckley's first sets of letters as, like, love letters. And the last batch of letters that she got as distressful sounding. And she said in the video that she gave them to the dean of her college. And then on the tape, she read one of the letters. It was dated March 6th, 1981. And it said,

Jodie Foster, love, just wait. I will rescue you very soon. Please cooperate. J.W.H. And on the stand, she was asked whether she'd ever seen a message like that before. And Foster replied, yes. In the movie Taxi Driver, the character Travis Bickle sends the character Iris, her character, a rescue letter. That sounds almost identical to that. Next came a series of questions that led to Hinckley standing up and running from the courtroom.

What? U.S. Marshals chased him down and tackled him. And so this is what she was asked. Now, with respect to the individual John W. Hinckley, looking at him in this courtroom today, do you recall seeing him in person before today? Jodi said, no. Did you ever respond to his letters? No, I did not. Did you ever invite his approaches?

No. How would you describe your relationship with John Hinckley? And she said, And with that, he, like, jumped up from the table and ran out of the courtroom. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. After the videotape testimony, the defense case continued with the phone conversations that he had tape recorded and stuff like that. And hearing Foster saying the thing about, I can't carry on these conversations with people I don't know. Yeah. The defense called two psychiatric experts.

The defense called two psychiatric experts. One testified that he believed that John was suffering from schizophrenia. He saw Hinckley as having four major symptoms of mental illness, an incapacity to have an ordinary emotional arousal, autistic retreat from reality, depression, including suicidal features, and an inability to work or establish social bounds. I think those all make sense. And according to this expert, Hinckley's lack of conviction about his identity led him to snatch like fragments of personality from books and movie characters that he liked or identified with. And so he created this whole persona off of these bits and pieces of people that he felt he identified with. That makes a creepy amount of sense to me.

It makes so much sense. Yeah. I once knew this person in college. He was a friend of a friend. Dude creeped the shit out of me. The show House was really popular. And this dude was just like a normal guy. All of a sudden, he pretended, well, he said he slipped on the ice one day.

And he started walking around with a cane for like months and months yeah and he developed a uh really haughty attitude which is real cute when you're a doctor at the top of your field and not when you work at radio shack yes so another like defining moment in John's life, according to this expert, was he believed the death of John Lennon because because of that. Because because because because of that identity issue that he was having where he was pulling bits of other people's identity. Right. He believed that John Lennon was part of him and he was part John Lennon. And so John Lennon dying. What did that mean for him? Yeah.

How could he still exist? And so it was a huge part in like this fracturing of his reality. I think that makes total sense. This is fascinating to me. Yes. Yes. This does make sense. Yeah.

Yes. Oh, yeah. So there was a recording that Hinckley had done on New Year's Eve. And it kind of gave a glimpse into that confusion about John Lennon's death. And this is what he said on this recording. Forget it. It's just going to be insanity if I even make it through the first few days. I still regret having to go on with 1981. I don't know why people want to live. John Lennon is dead. I still think about Jodi all the time. That's all I think about, really. That and John Lennon's death.

They were just sort of binded together in my mind. Hmm. This expert, his name is Dr. Carpenter. I don't think I've said that. He said that he believed that when Jack Hinckley refused to let John come back home, that that severed John's last link to the real world there was nothing else holding him in any kind of real life he slipped completely into that imaginary life that he had created oh which days later is when he attempted to assassinate the president. Yeah. Carpenter was on the stand for like three days and he concluded his testimony by saying that

Hinckley could appreciate the wrongfulness of his act intellectually. Like intellectually, he knew it was wrong. But he didn't understand that at all emotionally. To him, the president and the others he shot were just bit players. He was so focused on achieving a magical unification with Jodie Foster that he didn't see the consequences of his actions for those victims. another expert testified that hinkley believed that travis bickle was talking directly to him and he began to feel like he was acting out a movie script so the same thing he's saying that like he had no grasp on reality he was living completely in a figment of his imagination. Right. And he said it was highly unlikely that Hinckley was or could be faking an illness because those that do almost always report fake positive signs,

like hearing voices or having visions. And Hinckley's signs were all negative, like showing no emotion and like jumping in places in his thought. showing no emotion and like jumping in places in his thought and so he said that like to him that means that this is not he's not creating this as an argument for insanity like yeah he's really insane which i i believe that he i believe I believe it, too. Yeah. Yeah. The defense closed their case by showing the jury the movie Taxi Driver in its entirety. You're kidding me. No! What?

Yes! It's kind of unnecessary. I wonder if it was like, huh? The defense attorney was like, oh, shit, I didn't prepare anything. Let's wheel in the movie into class. Yeah I got in another two hours and twelve minutes I need to fill. You guys better take notes on this

because there will be a test. So the prosecution offered a bit of a rebuttal to that psychiatric evidence. What movie did they show? So they tried to say that the diagnosis of schizophrenia was wrong that hinkley in fact didn't suffer from that but he suffered from various personality disorders but that he was not psychotic or insane essentially the prosecution's expert testified that hinkley

was just a bored spoiled lazy, lazy, manipulative, rich kid. And that Mr. Hinckley's history was clearly indicative of a person who did not function in a usual, reasonable manner. However, they said, there's no evidence that he was so impaired that he could not appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct or conform his conduct to the I disagree with that completely. I completely disagree with that. I think it's so clear. I disagree too. Yeah.

I think it's very clear that he was so impaired that he could not appreciate that. Of course. I think that's so clear. There were a couple little moments of drama during closing arguments. The prosecutor like walked back and forth in front of the jury holding the actual gun that Hinckley had used in the shootings. Oh, geez. And he shouted to the jurors. This man shot down in the street.

James Brady, a bullet in his brain, like while holding like the gun that he used. Like at them? Essentially, yes. God. Yeah, I don't. Not necessary. I agree. So many unnecessary things in this.

The movie. I agree. Holding the gun. Yeah. Yeah. And so then the defense's closing argument, the defense attorney, his, he went into, like, this full recounting of Hinckley's pathetic life and he kept like relating it back to how hinkley had this pathetic life to the point that john was sitting crying at the

defense table with his face in his hands and like shaking the entire time yeah and all the trial had lasted eight weeks the jury deliberated for three days john hinkley jr had been charged with 13 counts and the jury had reached the same verdict on each count do you have a guess no not guilty by reason of insanity following his acquittal john hinkley was transferred to saint elizabeth's hospital in washington until he could prove that he was no longer a threat to society. So like just indefinitely. Yeah. On December 17, 2003,

a federal judge ruled that Hinckley was entitled to unsupervised visits with his parents. He was able to leave the hospital and go visit his parents for one or two day visits at a time. Oh, holy shit. i don't know judge whoa in 2007 a request was submitted to extend those visits for like month-long periods so like he'd get to go stay with his parents for a month and then have to come back this request was denied the judge based this denial not on any on any problems there had actually been no present problems he was

a model patient when he was in the in the facility but the judge denied it saying that the hospital had not taken the necessary steps for such a transition to be able to take place and then in july of 2016 a judge concluded that john hinkley no longer posed a serious risk to himself or others. And his release was ordered. He was released on September 10th, 2016. Wow. With a few conditions. He has conditions on where he can live.

And he has to stay in like the Washington, D.C. area or southern Virginia. And he's not allowed to have any contact with past or present presidents or their relatives. OK, seems fair. And he can have no contact with Jodie Foster or any other entertainers. And he is prohibited from watching violent movies, television or other violent online digital materials. How do you control that? There's no way to control that. Huh.

Yeah. Oh, God. I don't know. That make you feel that he's been released and deemed no longer a threat? It would probably make me feel better if I knew. What kind of care he'd been receiving in there? 100%. Yeah knew what kind of care he'd been receiving yeah 100 yeah what kind of steps he'd made what kind of advancements and you know what the hell do i know about any of this yeah so you know maybe you can with talk therapy with the right medication with

you know maybe yeah maybe maybe all i know is if i were jodie foster i'd be watching my back oh fuck yes yeah so within a month of this uh not not guilty by reason of insanity verdict kind of an outcry went through the united states of people who felt like this was there needed to be harsher rules around it and more burden of proof and stuff like that and so some laws were passed to kind of define those things more so it shifted the burden of proof in an insanity case from the prosecution to the defense two-thirds of the states passed measures that required the defense to prove insanity, while eight states adopted a separate verdict of guilty but mentally ill. Okay. In addition to shifting the burden and insanity cases, Congress also

narrowed the defense itself. Legislation passed in 1984 that required the defendant to prove a severe mental illness and eliminated the volitional or control aspect of the insanity defense. After 1984, a federal defendant has had to prove that the severe mental disease made him unable to appreciate the nature and quality or the wrongfulness of his acts. And that's all a result of this case. See, that's fascinating to me because I don't really feel like the jury got it wrong at all. I don't either. And so I feel like usually when things change dramatically, it's because the jury got it wrong.

I don't think they got it wrong. But maybe it was one of those things where if you're only seeing a few headlines in the news, you think they got it wrong. I don't think they got it wrong. But maybe it was one of those things where if you're only seeing a few headlines in the news, you think you think, oh, yeah, yeah. We've got to get stronger wording around this, which I don't necessarily think stronger wording is bad. No, it's not. I don't think it is. Yeah. So that's the case of that. John Hinckley Jr.

Fascinating. Somebody recommended that we cover. And I went back to our messages. Oh, and you can't fucking find who it was. Oh, and you can't remember. I'm so sorry whoever recommended it. Thank you for the recommendation. I apologize that I can't find who it was.

Well, you know, Kyla said you should be fired. And I think that person, whoever they are, I think they're going to agree with Kyla. They're definitely going to agree. No, that was so good.'t that fascinating i didn't know anything about that no no no oh the obsession with taxi driver and jody foster and oh yeah i feel terrible for his Like, his dad definitely blamed himself for it. And I think he was doing what he thought he was supposed to do. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, when you're following the advice of a professional, you've sought professional help for your son,

you follow that professional's advice, and then it turns out to not be the right thing, that's going to be... Devastating. Yeah. Yeah. Ugh. What do you got for show notes over there kristin um well nothing really except something funny has happened so our the new episode just came out for last week to you guys

and people are weighing in on sausage brunch nobody's fucking heard of sausage brunch kristin it is hilarious so it seems like maybe other people and it's usually it's mostly midwest people yeah seem to have heard of breakfast casserole yeah which i feel like just in general casseroles are very midwesty it's true it's true yes i mean someone dies in your family you're gonna get 12 casseroles i don't know what y'all do in Boston, but here we have casseroles. That's right. But let me pull up Twitter because people had some funny responses that I want to highlight. Okay, so just to catch everybody up.

In the last episode, I talked about sausage brunch, thinking it was a thing everyone had heard of. Brandy pointed out through much laughter that it, in fact, is not something that everyone had heard of brandy pointed out through much laughter that it in fact is not something that everyone has heard of and the reason i told this story was because my dad was over at my house i had a bunch of tables lined up for mother's day one of the tables was shorter than the other it was all covered up in a tablecloth he loaded up his plate with sausage brunch put it on what he assumed was the edge of the table it wasn't it spilled all down his leg so anyway this morning Jillian reached out to us on Twitter and said I lived in Kansas for 10 years and today is the first time I've ever heard of sausage brunch so then I was like okay I retweeted it was like all right has anyone heard of sausage brunch and then Grant cracked me up he goes

is this when a bunch of bears go drinking at 11 a.m and then um let's see oh who said the 80s poor oh then then alex goes it sounds like an 80s porno which i'd never thought of sausage brunch is sounding dirty thanks a lot this is a beloved family recipe then my dad of course tweeted oh my gosh your dad's is my favorite laughed so hard he goes sausage brunch a pitts family tradition for three generations best served on a table with no false edges so yeah a few people uh biancaca said that she asked a bunch of people. The Illinois person had had it, but he knew it as breakfast casserole, which does not sound like an 80s porno at all. It does not.

So my sister Casey said that my grandmother makes sausage brunch. And I was like, no, I've never heard of sausage brunch. And she said, well, she calls it breakfast casserole. But it doesn't sound like the same thing to me. But Casey claims it is. Yeah, when people describe breakfast casserole, no, it doesn't sound quite right. Because some people are talking about, like, whole slices of bread. Yeah.

No. Yeah. That is not what this is. Brandy, rest assured. You're going to make me sausage brunch? I'm going to make you sausage brunch. Even though I don't know if you're going to like it. Why won't I like it? You know how you it you know you think i'm a picky eater i i think you're thinking i'm a picky eater

i gave you that test do you remember i remember yeah and it said for sure you were okay because you were like oh i i don't like tomatoes i don't like sauces of any kind i don't like tomatoes, I don't like sauces of any kind, I don't like mayonnaise, I don't like blah, blah, blah. You have a long list of foods. I have texture issues. Should we take the test right now? No. Mm-hmm. Anyway, so the consensus is that no one has fucking heard of sausage brunch,

just as I predicted. Well, they've heard of it. It's just been uploaded to Pornhub. What I love listening back to that segment is you can't hear a fucking word that's coming out of my mouth and somehow you know exactly what I'm saying. You know what it's like? It's like when someone has a two-year-old and the two-year-old to you is like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the mom's like, no, you can't have a juice box.

You know, like, the mom understands. What is this secret language they speak? Brandi, I've been listening to you talk through laughter for, like, what was it, 25 years now we figured out? Yeah, I speak it fluently. You speak my language. I knew you were making fun of me. I'm so glad. Do you have show notes?

No, I have nothing. Well, you seem totally unprepared today. My case was really fucking long. It was so good. It was so good. You know what, though? What we haven't done since we reached our 250 we haven't set a new goal oh do you want to set some ridiculous one i would like i i would like to relinquish control

of the goal to you all right 400 000 no 300 300 is our new goal yeah in itunes so please head on over to itunes leave us a rating leave us a review we would appreciate you forever you know just forever you'll have our we'll love you long time oh gosh um and then you know while you're on there head on over to our social media you'll find us on facebook twitter instagram youtube reddit and then be sure to join us next week when we'll be experts on two whole new topics. Podcast adjourned. And now for a note about our process. I read a bunch of stuff, then regurgitate it all back up in my very limited vocabulary. And I copy and paste from

the best sources on the web and sometimes Wikipedia. So we owe a huge thank you to the real experts. For this episode, I got my info from the Vox documentary, False Positive, How Flawed Forensic Science Fails, The Innocence Project, Wikipedia, and newspapers.com. And I got my info from an article by Denise Ngo for Crime Library, famoustrials.com, and Wikipedia. For a full list of our sources, visit lgtcpodcast.com. Any errors are of course ours, but please don't take our word for it. Go read their stuff.